Girls Gone Canon Cast - ASOIAF Episode 131 - ACOK Catelyn III

Episode Date: July 9, 2021

Catelyn goes to Storm's End and reenacts the "This is fine" dog meme while Stannis and Renly gust and blow a lot of hot wind at each other. Both of these brothers are ridiculous.  Links Mentioned:  (Spoilers All) Millions of peaches, peaches for me. by /u/Fat_Walda (Spoilers ADWD) Let us consider Renly's Peach, and the greater significance of peaches in ASOIAF by [deleted] --- Eliana's twitter: https://twitter.com/arhythmetric Eliana's reddit account: https://www.reddit.com/user/glass_table_girl] Eliana's blog: https://themanyfacedblog.wordpress.com/ Chloe's twitter: https://twitter.com/liesandarbor Chloe's blog: www.liesandarborgold.com Intro by Anton Langhage

Hello, and welcome to Girls Gone Canon, Read of Song of Ice and Fire, episode 131, Catalin 3, and A Clash of Kings. I am one of your hosts, Chloe. And I am another one of your hosts, Eliana. The big parlay. This is it. Parlay. It's a parlay par-tay. Par-lay-vu-stenly? Stanley.

Parlay-vu-stenly? I don't know. do you speak do you speak stanley hello we're here we're here at the parlay we're ready to rendezvous this chapter is kind of fun it's not there are some really great deep things in it but it's also kind of fun it's just like a fun stupid chapter in some aspects just stupid yeah i mean it's a great chapter but the hijinks that go on are stupid yes we are all catelyn stark in this chapter as these baratheon men buck antlers right and right i don't know i think we're gonna have fun we're all catelyn stark as surprised pikachu watching like what is happening we will be putting out a patreon episode this month for our patrons and the stranger tier and above it is likely going to be on a free city so stay tuned as we chit chat about that and we'll let you know when it's gonna come out.

And next month will of course be a His Dark Materials themed episode so that will be announced too in the future. Stay tuned for that. Everything is in the future. It's all in the future. Yeah, another thing that's in the future but with a set date

is this month's Discord brunch slash happy hour will be on sunday july 18th from 1 to 3 p.m moved up the time a little and it is open for patrons ten dollars and above in our thunder tier and above who i mean if you're you're a thunder tier patron then you have access to the Discord just in general. I love brunch with our patrons. It's silly sometimes. Sometimes it gets serious, but like in a good way, right?

Honestly, we have so many people that are just open to being vulnerable and chatting about their life and making friends. And we have such a good bunch for brunch. A bunch for brunch. That's the last Game of Thrones book. No, I'm just kidding. good bunch for brunch a bunch for brunch that's the last a game of thrones book no i'm just kidding a bunch for brunch we do games giveaways get to know yous we'll talk about the theme this month a little later i think maybe next week we'll chat about the theme give you some ideas of what's to come but it's gonna be really fun i've heard a little bit no spoilers about it and it's gonna be so fun and we just always like to play games and get to know yous and we do a giveaway every month if you come you are eligible for some fun free fandom stuff so come hang out with us it'll

be good i promise it will be good and of course last last week of this month as the last week of every month we will be doing an episode of the amber spyglass and our first we just finally started the amber spyglass so if you haven't caught our first episode of that check it out it's on our uh you know everywhere that our podcasts are uh we'll go over that list at the end of the episode we're not gonna do it now we're not ready we're not prepared for that i'm not i'm not in the middle state we really gotta get in that state but you know if you have not read his dark materials highly recommend it i had not read it eliana had she got me into it we have covered northern lights the golden compass the first book the

subtle knife the second book series one and two of the his dark materials hbo bbc adaptation we've also covered a bunch of the novellas from the outer world and we're working on the books of dust we finished labelle sauvage recently so if you're a diehard his dark materials fan or if you're looking for a new story to read, you know, check it out. Check out His Dark Materials. I think you'll like it. And come hang out with us and listen there, too. Yeah.

All right. Eliana, we have emails, tweets, comments, reviews, whatever you want to call them of note. A little housekeeping up top. We're going to get through it. top we're gonna get through it i have to bring this up because last week you brought up such a stellar amazing point from our patron and friend luminary friend maddie who has just great thoughts on a song of ice and fire she talked a lot about the crowns last episode and some of the analysis on them today maddie once more brought me something beautiful entertaining wondrous which is instead of let's get physical the song let's get Oedipal Oedipal about you know like men and cattle and starks so that was it

that was all I had to offer for our emails tweets comments of note today but let's get Oedipal let's get Oedipal we are gonna get a littleipal. We are going to get a little Oedipal. I mean, not too much, but eventually. Eventually. Yeah. And so, once again, I brought us something that is neither an email nor a tweet of note. Not even a comment or a review. It wasn't even about us, you know? It does feel like it is.

I mean, it's related in a way in that we are talking about these chapters well it wasn't about us but it i found a thread on reddit by user unholy sin spelled c-i-n and um about what are renly's motivations for wanting to become king and also the user called out that oh it is weird right that Renly thought Barristan would show up for him which I agree as as we discussed last time and I have new thoughts about that and we can discuss that later this episode I do too yeah I mean I'm excited like we again I'm a different person from when we covered Barristan two years ago and that's one that I would love to revisit one day.

I say that about every POV. Don't reread this someday. What's rereading? Who rereads books? That's stupid. Anyway, so one of the top comments in this Reddit thread was from user PrizeLoss. And I thought it was like a really interesting breakdown in the context of the trauma that renly suffered at storm's end that we were

discussing last week and so in response to unholy sin's question of do the books ever give us an indication of when and how renly decided he should be king prize loss says at first in the books he has no serious issue with joffrey being king it is circe who he has an issue with as he believes that she is a danger to either his life or power he seems happy for ned to be joffrey's regent if it means circe is out of the picture ned rejects this offer but renly pleads that circe is the real threat to the both of them but ned ignores this offer renly hearing that ned intends to support the queen as ned does not reveal to Renly his own plans typical, leaves the capital.

Ned is shortly arrested, which would confirm in Renly's head that Cersei truly is a threat to him. From Renly's POV, Ned was actually being loyal to Cersei and still ended up imprisoned and eventually executed. This is later confirmed in Renly's conversation

to Cat. Renly is ordered to the capital at the end of A Game of Thrones, or face being attainted, and so Renly has three logical choices at this point. One, go to the capital and hope he does not share Nen's fate. Two, do nothing and allow all his prospective allies to swear allegiance to the new king. Three, rebel and try to convince as many lords as possible to do the same. It is also important to remember that Stannis only rebels after Renly and Robb have already done so. He was not an option for Renly at the time he was crowned. The same lords who liked Renly and would be happy to rebel for him may not have felt the same for the

unpopular Stannis. The same lords who know Renly would listen to them and could compromise while he was king, thus rewarding their support, probably knew that he was not as likely with Stannis on the throne. Renly is motivated by two things, survival and ambition. Supporting Stannis does not fulfill either, as Stannis would not gain the same support his younger brother could. i will add also that is not in this uh comment i don't remember if it was brought up later in the thread that that adds um not only is ned taken right but robert's bastards start coming start out of the wood getting murdered yeah start getting murdered so yeah that adds to i think some of that case of what uh prize loss says i think that's great because renly does feel fear right he sees cersei as a threat

and i think there's a lot there too i mean we'll talk a little bit later about how there's a lot of is it watsonian is it doylist when it comes to renly we just don't fucking know like george puts some it's not a pov character right like it's some really interesting thread work like it leaves a lot to the imagination and i think there's a lot of people that project heavily onto stannis and like his thoughts and ambitions and what he might be and his pain about robert and i think something really strong that we're going to talk about today, something that I am not being a Renly apologist. First of all, I hear all of you at home right now. I hear it. I hear you. I know you're sitting there thinking Chloe's about to

Renly apologize. No, I would never apologize for a man. That's ridiculous. First of all. Second of all, I just think that there's a lot for runley in robert and in stannis that we see in this chapter and you can see uh runley acts like a little shit many times in this chapter but stannis his rage and his fury and his storm so to speak in this chapter is unmatched by anyone else in the chapter as catalan is a kind of a passive POV at many points and yeah I think that like you can see both of the effects of Stannis and Robert on Renly and wanting to live up to that wanting to be better than both of them you know wanting to have as Dany would say wanting to have a beautiful kingdom full of happy people I mean like yes his his stupid rich ambitions aren't always awful like he does

want peace it's just he's not willing to work toward it as you said i mean both of them are dumb nobody looks good in this chapter except for catelyn right one person looks good in this chapter and i i just think it's so interesting to think about it. I think this chapter really highlights the ambition motivation for Renly more. But I mean, as you're talking about in terms of Stannis and Robert and that survival, like, I can see why Renly would be like, I don't think Stannis is able to, to protect me. I mean, he couldn't even feed me yeah exactly like he he i think maybe sees sanis as a failed protector in that aspect and like this is the channel that he knows for protection right of well we just got to rebel and protect ourselves because that's what robert had to do right

and he sees maybe parallels between what was happening to robert um in terms of a tyrant coming for Robert's head and fears I'm next when he sees Baratheon bastards getting off you know like these kids you'd look like him getting chased yeah and it's like all right I mean we don't get that perspective as you said we don't see any of that but like if if it's like that at all it makes sense that this is the pattern. It's so interesting you just said that because the golden stag that Joffrey takes versus I was thinking the black stag is what's normal, right? Like they're the black stags of the House Bratheon. Joffrey takes the golden stag, which is that inverse.

I was thinking like, doesn't that mean Robert's bastards are the true black stags because they're black of hair? Yeah. Yeah. And I think this is part of why and I obviously don't believe this tinfoil. People think that Redley is Robert's bastard and I'm like

no, that makes, that's just unnecessary. It just adds a layer that at this point wouldn't help you know what i mean like not in a bad way but it's like we already have enough bastards for robert and that doesn't make me care anymore about dead renly yeah same well he's not dead yet he's not dead yet no he's not next week you know next week renly dies mark your calendars everyone uh it'll be a a sappy had it will be a mediocre day when renly dies it'll be a day i mean like a lot of things happen because of it yeah it should be sad for Stannis, but... Who knows?

All right, bring on your storm, Eliana. Let's talk about what we missed in the lightning round. Yeah, we start off with Jon III. The Watch lands at Craster's Keep, the best Airbnb in the North, where they learn that Vance is gathering at the Frostvags. Theon, too. Theon meets a woman named

Asgard who later transforms into his worst nightmare, Balon's favorite child. Let's get edible. I mean, it's not quite close. It's close though. We're getting closer to some edible action. Yeah.

Tyrion 6. Tyrion informs the queen that the Baratheon brothers rage and then decides he should poison his sister. He gets whole shit tons of work done the next day, including taking Pycelle into custody. Arya 6. Eight days pass before Arya and her group are taken to Harrenhal to serve under Tywin. Daenerys 2. Daenerys too. Daenerys' arrival to Qarth is cause for celebration, and Dany gets to pop bubbly twice when she finds out that Robert Baratheon is dead. These travel so slow.

I know, right? Especially to the east. Mirafor? No, Mirafor. You wish! You wish! I wish i wish bitch i wish so hard bran for mira and jojen accompany bran in the godswood where jojen reveals his green dreams of bran as well as pushing him to share his maester lewin tells bran jojen is full of beans. Full of beans? You're welcome. Tyrion 7. Tyrion is awakened by Lancel, who demands Pycelle be released and Jocelyn Bywater be arrested

for his queen. Tyrion then immediately realizes that Lancel is fucking Cersei and hires Lancel as a spy before going to see the chick that he is fucking. I appreciate that Tyrion is straight up like Dennis from Always Sunny about Dee, right? Like, there's no way anyone would fuck sweet Dee. What?

Straight up what Tyrion's like. He's like, oh, you're fucking her. Huh, that has to be it. That brings us to Arya 7. A girl works in the Wailing tower and gets a fairy godmother to assist in her survival which i really want a bippity boppity boo jack and higar like song now now that i say that is that has someone made that i'm gonna make it now you should trademark copyright dibs that's you make it now. Trademark. Copyright. Dibs.

That's you. And that brings us here to Cat 3. Catlin hopes to make the Baratheon brothers see reason, but ends up a semi-hostage by the end, waiting in prayer before seeing the huge battle take place. Asterisk. Asterisk. Asterisk. Renly die.

Yes. The battle battles in our hearts the battles the friends we made along the the Stark faction has finally arrived here to the Baratheon parlay they show up in a grassy area peppered with the stubs of tree trunks because of course that's where

Stannis' men have made their war weapons, their sieges, their rams, you know, because men and sexual and war. Anyways, Catelyn wonders if Ned had rested here when he lifted the siege of Storm's End, and she thinks of it as his greatest, most bloodless victory. Which in my head, I'm like, Tower of Joy? Just kidding, that wasn't bloodless. God's grant, I shall do the same catalan praise i've seen a lot of speculation maybe this grove could have once held weirwoods uh which makes that idea of ned stopping and resting here so sad you know like

what if what if we could get a little spy moment seeing him in the Weirwoods before the battle? Yeah, I do love that, you know, call out that you made of her thinking, like, is this something I can share, a memory that I can piece together of my husband? I also thought that the usage of the word bloodless here regarding Ned's victory was really interesting considering that the actions soon after lead toward a regime change as as Robert Baratheon becomes king which you know the whole war itself is not bloodless and I mean like is that like speaking to something in the next chapter that I would argue that's not really bloodless either anyway um but it it just kind of like reminded me a little of the language used for the glorious revolution of 1688 which is also sometimes called the bloodless revolution in which james ii or the seventh of scotland um was replaced by his brother by his daughter mary ii and william iii of orange and you might know them as the namesakes of the college of

william and m. That is them. Anyway, so afterwards there was like a convention parliament, which is kind of, I guess, something like a great council that established them as monarchs when James left, and then they stayed on as a proper parliament and a Bill of Rights was put together. And also, interestingly, in terms of other bloodlust revolutions, sometimes the election of 1800 in the United States is considered a bloodlust revolution

because it was like a shift in power, peacefully, from one person to the next, or ruler, if you will. But anyway, that word choice kind of just stuck out to me, considering that, first of all, Robert's Rebellion, very much not bloodless. I guess maybe that one moment, allegedly, was bloodless. But, you know, it seems to have created some of those things that the High Lords wanted, right? Maybe not exactly like a parliament, but this bloodless revolution in real life led to some of those. And I guess it doesn't,

it didn't for Robert's Rebellion. They were like, this is totally going to happen, but all the architects who had wanted that ended up, you know, John, I guess, never really ended up going forward with that and neither did hoster in that same way and there's there's also a religious aspect to the bloodless revolution um you know that led to the barring of the ascension of any more roman catholic monarchs

or like we're not doing that anymore and you know the religion of monarchs is a part of this chapter so yeah that does come to the forefront especially with the standard bearers and kind of those uh the fact that Renly's camp has changed in one way and Stannis's in another you know from the traditional Baratheon path yeah yeah and coming even back to what we were talking about early earlier with that reddit thread in the comments um something i find so fascinating is it's interesting because this is of course would have been around the time cadeline and ned got married which we're going to talk about more here like that includes why she's reminiscing so much about it she's like this is when we got married right after the battle of

the bells uh it's hard not to think about your dead fucking husband then so you know but she thinks of this as bloodless which interesting that after this is when he brought home and shed the most blood for her right when he brought john into the world in her eyes uh yeah the bloodless war happened before they were married before he could cheat on her with his harlot and it's crazy because john and joffrey for example and the children i mean those are examples of ned's most bloodless wars right that he sacrificed and lied so publicly to stop people from going to war catelyn doesn't know how much he lied to stop war from tearing apart Westeros. You know, she doesn't know.

She has no clue. But yeah, here she is carrying Ned's torch here in the Stormlands. I think that's really a powerful choice. It is. That's a great point. She is trying to carry his torch here too. And, you know, as you said, Ned lied about a lot of stuff for, I mean, yeah, for peace, right? Or the hope of it. And I mean, it comes back to what we were talking about in that Reddit comment, right? Renly doesn't know that Ned was just lying because he was like, save the kids. because he was like, save the kids.

The Northmen thought that Catelyn was mad to come and moderate this debate and that this fight is nothing of theirs. And Wendell says, I know the king would not wish his mother to put herself at risk. And she sharply tells him we are all at risk and that she would rather be with her dying father at Riverrun or Winterfell with her sons. But Robb sent her to speak for him and speak she shall. Again, another super respectful, like carrying ned's torch moment uh i think there's so much more alike than we realize sometimes in their motives and goals i do love that the language specifically calls out that rob sent her to speak

for him and speak she shall because obviously it's foreshadowing someday she'll never speak again i'm just kidding i was kidding i was just r slash shitty movie details i'm sorry i'm hurt when i'm hurt i lash out across the fields and ridges cattle and seas storms end against the sky and stannis's army below they look small and it's an insignificant from her vantage point agreed we get a great amount of background on storm's end durin raised it in ancient days the very first storm king and he won the love of fair eleni daughter of the sea god goddess of the wind she had given her maidenhood to a mortal and their love dooming herself to a mortal's death her grieving parents unleashed a wrath of winds and storms to batter durin's hold and his friends and brothers and wedding guests were all crushed and blown to sea

so before we go into some of the description of storm's end a lot of this really hammers home some parallels here. Right? Ha! The hammers, get it? Between Arya 7 and Cat 3. Arya's chapter right before this actually begins with the horror of Harrenhal and a description of its towers. Whatever names Harren the Black had meant to give his towers were long forgotten. They were called the Tower of Dread, the Widow's Tower, the Wailing Tower, the Tower of Ghosts, and Kingspire Tower. Each of these towers feels pretty loosely important to not just Arya's plot, but kind of related to cats too, right? The Widow, the Wailing, the Wailing Widow, so to say, the Tower of Ghosts. Kangspire, right? Rob.

The sadness that Arya is currently enduring as a child survivor amidst the Lannister's reign and the Mountain and Tywin and Harrenhal. Like, not wanting to know the names of the people she serves with because then it hurts worse when they die. Right? Memory. Fleeting memory like we experience later with catalan or the way shella went which is catalan's kinswoman let the castle go to a rubble and ruin

state without repairing it from you know just living in this very sad haunting place which feels a lot like winterfell about to burn about to be ruined and of course the ghosts of harrenhal harren and his sons die in the kingspire tower kind of a pretty big push of what's to come right the destruction and death to come not just to winterfell but to the stark family as stated here for cat right this right here eleni and duran the wedding guests and the wedding they all die they're all blown out to storm it's a little pretty perfectly roundabout as foreshadowing it's it's out there it's out there and it comes really perfectly around in tyrian in his 11th chapter as tyrian stands at the helm of king's landing george has all these fallen castles come into place just for the stinkiest grossest most corrupt shittiest city to keep on living through it all right tyrian only wished he could as easily make

city walls twice as tall and three times as thick perhaps it did not matter massive walls and tall towers had not saved storm's end nor harhal, nor even Winterfell. Yes, the storm at Storm's End, it turns out, was in their hearts. That's what takes out the Baratheons. Actually, that's a big bummer. Doran lives. Doran lives, though. He's the only one, you know?

Or, there you go, Dorian. That's pretty similar too i didn't think about that but i think that's fun that george kind of made the name similar and they're not far right i mean the dornish marches in the stormlands are only a a hair's throw away but i do think it's intended i mean duran's all that's left and that's all that's left for cat right now until well but she's gone. And then she's still left, but the other thing I did want to say was, especially

because Durin risked it all for Elainey, right? And that's what brings about this whole debacle with the whole killing all the wedding and the blah blah blah. Remember our friend Rob, King in the North guy who risks it all for a girl rip that feels pointed

here it does but durin and eleni have a different mythical ending right eleni shelters him with her arms and when the dawn comes he actually declares war on the gods vowing to rebuild but our start clan here right now at least at the time of this podcast 2021 when the winds of winter has still not come out it's coming out next week look under your chairs etc etc but kat and rob don't live they don't get to rebuild right but they don't. It's sad. It is sad. It's big sad. Well, Durin ends up building, like, five more castles because each one gets, like, smashed,

but they're shattered in the wind each time once more. His lords plead with him, like, just build it on the land, and his priests, who are assholes, tell him, give Eleni back to the sea, but he doesn't he raises a seventh castle and some say that the children of the forest helped him build it some say that a small boy told them what he must do and that that boy grouped to be brand the builder but the end of

the story uh was the same throughout all the cultures the seventh castle stands to fight and during god's grief and fair eleni dwelt together till the end of their days the gods don't forget sending storms for years but storms and endured a castle like no other you have to love the language george uses there that they endured because it does remind me of the starks right the starks endured they always will uh but i do love especially with their alliance in general the baratheons and starks for ned and robert's friendship at least that's that's sweet and i do think there's a lot of uh interesting interesting thoughts that could have been the children of the forest or it could

have been a boy that grew up to be bran the builder i'm like is that a brand is that brand that you you getting the tardisIS, buddy? You out there? I think there's a lot of Bran in this chapter, believe it or not. I do. Not trying to be pointed about Bran. I'm just saying that Bran seems to come up in this chapter a couple times. Not just here, but even later. Hmm. He does come up quite a few times. It is interesting. Now, out of the wonderful story, is the real Storm's End. It's a hundred foot high curtain wall, round, smooth, with no angle or gap for the wind to enter. Forty feet thick at its narrowest, eighty feet on the face with sand and rubble in its core, as well as rocks.

Within that was the kitchen, stables,ables and yards and a colossal drum tower with massive battlements barracks and the granary the feast hall and lord's dwelling are within as well crowned looking like a spiked fist atop of an upthrust arm and i'm like is that not the description of the mountain's helm like isn't there like a tiny little fist on it which i'm just like why hilarious that's interesting though because we did have Arya and Harrenhal, right, with the Mountain's Men. And I do have to say that's also how it's described in Austin Powers' gold member about Mini-Me. That's how his penis is described in Austin Powers. They're like, it's like a hand.

It's like a doll arm holding an apple. So it could be that too oh if you want to it could be no no i think that is a mountain helm reference though i really do i think it's a it feels like or people who maybe people just like are really into that design you know it could be i mean it means power right or or maybe yeah the mountain thought that's really cool when he saw storms end once and was like i want that like a tribal tattoo yeah or something yeah actually though anyway it seems like him um so i i do think that it's interesting that this is the chapter and i mean what else would they bring it, especially because it's our first time there, right? That we get all this background story on the creation of Storm's End.

the world of Ice and Fire, but I think it really gives us a little bit of context in which to see these Baratheon brothers, right? They are incredibly stubborn. They're unable to relent to anything, even if the gods damn them. And not just out of love, but out of pride. And that's what we see in this chapter. Like, no matter who

implores them to do anything, neither of them move. I mean, and the gods are gonna damn them, right? The gods damn the Kinslayer whatever gods any of them none of them think it's cool to kill your bro bro it's not it is in fact very uncool this thing it is a thing that nerds do nerds kill their bros bro lame i this is kind of our best look at storm's end right some of this imagery is great this is uh besides maybe fire and blood storm's end which we get a great if you haven't read fire and blood

there's a really cool battle that happens there during the dance of the dragons that's expanded on and it reminds me a lot of a battle in star wars actually uh but it's really cool and you gotta read it it gives some great imagery outside of the drums and the towers and i really do love this and since this is kind of the real firsthand experience i mean we see it through davos very briefly and at night right we do not get a look at storms and cadillan gets the first detailed. And it feels significant that the only other really good look that we get into the Stormlands is actually coming to us in the Winds of Winter eventually through Arianne's POV. It's another female political envoy being sent on a mission to decide whether to raise swords for rebellion or whether to stay silent and do nothing. rebellion or whether to stay silent and do nothing arianne and the wind's winner will be seeking the truth that will lead to more bloodshed or more bloodshed um pick one you can have either arianne

the difference i guess is of course how both of them embrace these situations both of them have knowledge and have information and have been informed with well they have personal grudges and false knowledge that they have built a few of their opinions on right for arianne she is looking for aegon and quentin's usurping in her mind which isn't real it's fake but quentin's usurping is actually what's going to kind of lead to her doom in the story, right? What's going to have her pick the thing. For Catelyn, she's following Lysa's trail. Lysa's lies, so to speak. And of course, especially with Rob,

the one thing she can't let go is Jon Snow's possible usurping, right? When we talk about Blackfyre. So both of these women are sent as very smart political envoys, and they do kind of end up uh meeting a demise in some manners in some of these aspects they do i think that's interesting that that parallels you pointed out that of how we are seeing storms end both times yeah maybe that is a hint to us that things might not go good things will probably in fact go to the stormlands

oh my gosh smart bitches in the stormlands you know what i'm saying it ain't good ain't good guys well riders emerged from the camp slowly coming toward them. It's King Stannis, but not with the Baratheon standard. Instead, it was bright yellow, but not rich gold like Renly's, with a red device that she cannot quite make out. I love this because the only thing that Renly's kept of the Baratheons is the most powerful thing he knows, the standard, right? People see that and they think of Robert they think of House Baratheon and their fury and their storm so I actually kind of love and you won't hear me say this very often in a sentence together right love and Stannis but I love Stannis's very weird utilitarian out-place yellow versus Renly's gold Baratheon banner. Like, especially because that's the one thing Renly kept.

And that's the thing Stannis wanted out of. He's like, put the deer in the middle of the flag. Make it as small as possible. I do not want to see it. I want the flames and the heart. And I actually, you will rarely hear me compliment Stannis' fashion choices. In terms of, like, utilitarian,

like, simple, you know, aesthetic choices. His outfit, I actually quite like in this episode, in this chapter. I like that he picked one piece of statement jewelry, right? It was the only thing, it was the only fashion choice of his that I will support.

I think it's very tasteful. That's just me. No, I'm glad we're aligned. You know that I love my statement jewelry. I do. And you know what? You like your statement, like, tops, too. You always wear something that's killer.

You know? And he's actually... Just, like, one statement piece. I do want to say, Stannis is kind of decked out we're gonna talk about stannis's outfit in just a minute because he's actually this is kind of the most decked out i think we ever see him so to speak he's very kangly here it's very surprising and renly king renly sorry in this chapter you know i'm just kidding it's lord renly he is the last to arrive and he

actually told catalan that he would be the last to arrive he was like the first person that arrives has to wait for the other i'm a king i don't wait shut up runley um catalan thinks it is a sort of game kings play well she was no king so she need not play it. Catelyn was practiced at waiting. I just want to say, you know, Catelyn may be practiced at waiting, but she's got nothing on us. Uh. You've been waiting so long.

Ten years. Anyways. Ah, 2021. A stint arrives. Catelyn also surveys his crown. Uh, red gold with points fashioned into flames and a belt studded with garnets yellow topaz and a great square cut ruby in his sword hilt otherwise stannis dress is quite plain and she can see his banner better now the crown stag shrunken surrounded by a blaze of orange fire and a red heart is this a metaphor you know the heart of flame

i mean i don't know who can say who could say the meme that you posted earlier if it's a crowned stag and it's tiny does that mean it's princess shireen anyways on fire in the heart. Anyways. So let's talk about this outfit game. Because as we're going to see from Renly soon, they both dress to impress. And I want to start at the crown. Okay. Stannis's crown.

Red gold flames. Renly. Jade. Green. Stag. Gold roses. Stannis is wearing on his belt garnets that are red. topaz the great ruby and his sword hilt and renly is wearing black gold and green so these colors are very distinctly different right they're not sharing colors together they don't have you know like stannis actually isn't wearing

like black diamonds or anything that's what renley's wearing which is surprising but they're not sharing colors at all here they are very distinctly opposite each other and in this fashion hour which is where we are if you didn't guess that's what we're doing right now everyone i don't feel like i even have to announce it anymore it honestly reminds me a lot of a couple things but the first thing is illyrio's rings that wonderful passage where Illyrio is moving his rings and the many different gemstones are you know fluttering in the light back and forth of jade and topaz and opal these rings are very symbolic of the dance and the dance of the dragons so to speak and Illyrio's rings going back and forth of course the fighting of the dragons, so to speak. And Illyrio's rings going back and forth, of course, the fighting of the dragons. That's going to happen soon.

And I feel like the fact that these are distinctly opposite colors, with Renly representing the green of Aegon II and the gold of Aegon II, and wearing those black diamonds, but Stannis with his garnets and topaz, and the great ruby in his sword, the red, red, red. Terrible. Red. and topaz and the great ruby in his sword the red red red uh terrible red it's just so dance right it's so renera on dragon stone versus agon too and it's such a blast that george is actually defining them with this clothing and keeping them so separately apart i also think this is the only time we read about the ruby and stannis' sword hill. It's not really described later on through the story as he arrives with his fancy sword places. And it feels really apparent, especially with that focus on religion and Melisandre entering the room, or the room, the outdoors, which is a giant room.

But later on, we get that description that the air shimmered as if from heat, just like we hear in many other chapters, like in Jon's chapters and in Sam's about his sword. That makes me think this is meant to be a glamour on this sword. Absolutely. Yeah, I think that's a great point. Just like, I don't know, they're all they're all glamored in a way is that not what it's all about maybe the glamours were i'm sorry why did the glamours made them shiny that would be fun like vampires and twilight shit yeah like that or like how we ask where are the glow-in-the-dark snail snail things Tyrosh yes we demand it just me

well I think I'm going to come back to some of what you're saying about this color symbolism in a bit but even stranger than Stannis' new branding is the woman that accompanies him who's's carrying his banner, who is a red priestess, a face shadowed in a red deep hood.

And then Stannis greets Catelyn with a chilly courtesy. He is balder than she remembers, which is interesting of her to call out. And she spots Julie calling him Lord Stannis, which he does not argue against. This is actually mildly courteous of him compared to what Renly does later and it's like totally very awkward like okay Lord Stannis hello nice to see you also like of course you nerds are early for the parlay and Renly's last just kidding again not a Renly apologist. Do not get the idea. I love this exchange. It's not even fashionably right.

Right. They're having this great exchange. It's like, of all the gin joints in the country, you're like, hey, didn't think I'd see you here in these stormlands. It's like such an awkward, like, this is great small talk with Stannis Baratheon. No one's ever said that. No no and i would not say that after this

exchange i'll never say it again i promise he does a bad job he does a shit job his deep set eyes regarded her uncomfortably this was not a man made for easy courtesies. He gives his regrets for Ned's death, and then immediately says, he was no friend to me. Dude, I'm telling you, like, Renly did this to her last chapter, like, but in a different way, at least. It wasn't like the first thing that he said to her.

But I'm like, dude, this is why no one likes you. Like, the first thing out of your mouth was like, you know, right after apologizing and giving your condolences, being like, I didn't actually like him. Like, he didn't have to say that. He could have just been like, I'm sorry for your loss, which is what Marjorie did. And that's, like, a completely acceptable way to end that. That was fine. That's all you have to say.

And then it, like, gets worse and more awkward because, like, Catherine has, I mean, how's she going to take that lying down, right? Yeah, it's my husband, dude. She doesn you have to say. And then it, like, gets worse and more awkward because, like, Catelyn has- I mean, how's she gonna take that lying down, right? Yeah, it's my husband, dude. She doesn't have to. She took that dick lying down, so she's not gonna take this lying down. I know, right? Like, she doesn't have to stand for this, and- Catelyn gives a little spice back to this, right? She's like, when the Tyrells and Red and red wines held him ned broke the siege and saved your ass but stannis is like that was at robert's command not out of love for me what you wanted

eddard to love you is that a ship stead is that stead i think it is i think that is a ship wow stuttered stuttered stanley does admit oh nanis nas i can't do it i don't like that one no stuttered it is he admits eddard did his duty but then he's like i did too though and i should have been robert's hand ned took my job even if he didn't want it it was my job and then he's like he didn't even apply here okay i know he just thought he'd get it because of fucking nepotism, right? Like, that's the whole thing that I have a problem with. At least Renly in this chapter admits, like, it's not right for either of them to be king, but it's better that he should be king. Like, at least Renly's like, oh, I don't believe in any of that secession bullshit.

I just think I'm the best and I should be king. Because here, Stannis is like, I'm such a nice guy i'm gonna get justice for you know ned's murder anyway even though he didn't love me what you're not robert got it on a technicality and his warhammer buddy come on now i love this line cadeline thinks's like, oh, they love to promise heads, these men who would be king. They don't have to promise her her head, like his, like. That's not what she wants. Any of the Lannister's heads. At the very least, they could just not insult her dead husband.

That is all I am asking of the Baratheon brothers. Do not insult. Scheme to get the kids back. Okay, like, do that. That's what she wants. Like, how is it this hard? Do we have to spell it out? Get her kids back.

Dipshits. There's, the bar is low and they are all failing. I will say, I, you know, they're like, they love to promise heads. I'm like, Stannis would never promise heads. I know Stannis doesn't do that. Stannis would never promise that. I know Stannis doesn't. Anyway, I am glad that Kat does needle him later about all this. Because, you know, Kat explicitly muses on how Renly staying in King's Landing may have saved Ned's life.

And frankly, I've said this before. The same is true of Stannis, right? Like, where the fuck was he during everything like and i get it you know is it rational for either the baratheon brothers to have stuck around and supported ned um if both of them are so motivated by survival right because of what they went through growing up no i guess not but like i like ned and i don't like them so you know i don't know and also from cat's perspectives you know yeah she absolutely absolutely should begrudge both of them for not standing by ned and supporting him

and you know of course yeah robert's also the one who called himself all of them all of them are guilty all the breath god damn hallelujah. I want to just put that out there that hallelujah. Hallelujah, sister. I do, I do like, there are good Baratheons. These three are not amongst them. No, they are not. And this whole vote Baratheon no matter who bullshit is really getting on my nerves, so

hallelujah. She should be grudged on, I mean, literally. Also, if they cared that fucking much to be king, then why didn't they fucking stay in fucking King's Landing, okay? Like, if you give a shit about that throne, why did you run and hide in self-preservation?

You don't care about what the throne really means. You care about what it could mean for you. Agreed. So, that's my thought. There's also, of course, right, the irony. The irony of he's all like, well, Robert wouldn't make me hand. And I'm going to insult your dead husband to your face. And it's like the dead husband who was the only one who's like, all right, so Stannis is going to be king now.

And I know that's the point. I know that's the point. The irony behind it is the point. But also, and as you said, right, that none of them are doing the right thing for the realm and that's that's the point of course for stannis's character arc in the end of a storm of swords i get it i get it that he finally did i'm gonna be salty yeah i mean he's salty so i should be too and i do think that like that irony is really well set up here and yeah even what we commented on earlier that renly you know renly didn't actually know what neva doing when ned did his thing it looks like

he was supporting house lannister okay our boy had to lie and i get that and i get that when characters have to lie and say they support you know the baratheon lannister coalition here and front them as the true kings as santa does in the chapter right after this and people want to bitch about that like that's i mean they thought that they were doing the right thing and they had no other choice also like they he didn't have a choice i get that yeah and and that's what renly sees though none of them were like renly do it for the kids you know they're like think of the kids ned was like think of the kids and no one would think about the kids yeah ned is like think of the kids and renly and stannis stanley are like fuck them kids so no they were like the kids i'm baby i'm baby

stannis at 36 years old i'm baby oh my god gotta wash that one out of my brain with bleach eliana well catalin tells stannis runley promised me you know know, justice for Ned too, all their heads. But I want my daughters back. And leave the justice to the gods. Which he's like, there's only one in his head. He says when he takes King's Landing, he'll send her daughters to her. And Catelyn's like, well, what do you plan to do? Like, when is that going to happen? And he says, I need my brother's men in order to win.

That's the understatement of the century catalan advises him that those lords swore fealty to robert and house brathian and if you two would just put your issues aside but stannis says he only wants what is his by quote unquote rights and renly owes him obedience and loyalty as well as the other lords. Why? Because you kept him alive enough during the starvation. It's not yours by rights. A whole part of the realm came together and backed Robert to take the throne by blood

and end oppression. It wasn't by rights. They just justified it by that little cute droplet of Rey Targaryen. No one cares about rights also anymore. Okay, I just want to go back to that. What rights, Stannis? No one gets rights and you don't deserve them anyway. What is rights?

That's not how the throne works anymore. It doesn't. I'm torn. For Robert, he was put on there and they did keep some thread. As you said, it is so tenuous of him being a Targaryen and I really think what really happened was you know there were three leaders of the rebellion Ned Stark

Jon Arryn and Robert Baratheon and Ned Stark yelled nose game and then he got out first and then Jon Arryn's like oh okay also did it and they're like robert it's you and robert was like okay how many bitches do i fuck how many bitches do i get to fuck if i take the throne i just like that that is the big thing and that's i think that's the

problem here yeah what needs to happen is a great council of 298 ac needs to happen and all of these bitches are introverts and lazy and they don't like partaking in their group project and they don't want to do it i am bitches that's me john aaron was down to do the group project right and that's why he stuck around with the son that he chose yeah and i mean you know robert was he he was fortunate to have someone that he loved that he knew also loved him sanis had that but he didn't know with maester crescent as we we find out he's he's blind i think to people loving him and renly is the opposite right he craves it needs it with love and yeah i mean they both do but uh been showered with love and yeah i mean they both do but uh yearning for it or showed the yearning for it in different ways and it somehow has manifested in both of them they have both

projected everything that they wanted out of love into i will get it when i'm king being a king will fulfill me and i'm like well i don't know work-life balance you too but before we go on i i have to say like even just everyone take a moment close your eyes for a second and imagine the siege right like imagine the siege imagine the rebellion yeah and even you know courtney penrose's thoughts and spoken thoughts i should say and donald noy's thoughts and spoken thoughts, I should say, and Donald Noy's thoughts about these characters and Crescent's thoughts. Imagine little Renly stuck in this castle with a little bit older Stanny and Renly's running around going, look at me, look at me.

I'm trying to make everyone happy who's starving and on death row right now because they seem to kind of smile at it and he's taking that validation like i see that you know as a kid he was probably out there trying to be friendly with everyone and have a gregarious time with them and stannis i am sure was irritated and trying to you know somehow keep everybody alive in the face of his brother off fucking and fighting and celebrated by the towns who hit him and here stannis was starving eating rats and trying to keep his stupid little brother alive that annoys the shit out of him but somehow it entertains everybody else and they love him i mean just the same as they loved robert i i see it and i get it

like this chapter outlines it so well for you. It really makes it so that you can fill in the blanks. And I do think they both love each other. I think there's a difference. They both love each other, but they don't like each other.

And that's a thing. And I might have stolen that from Lady Bird. It's true, though. You know what? Lady Bird will be fine. She'll be fine out there in the movie world, Eliana. I might have stolen the concept. Well, when we make $3 million off this podcast, we'll let you all know, Lady Bird.

Well, it's worse, right? Because Stannis actually takes this and he's like cruel and cold and he turns it on her. He's like, why is House Stark here? who do you mean to give your allegiance to she responds her son reigns as king in the north by their people's word and bends the knee to no one but holds his hands of friendship out to everyone it was very fun it's a great pr answer right it's total bullshit like she's just like which one of you is gonna give me my girls back, bitch? Stannis says, of course, the most, you know, epic line. Kings have no friends, only subjects and enemies.

I say this all the time about me. I do actually like this line a lot. And I have the San Sandrixian shirt of it because it looked cool. But yeah, it's funny because news travels slow. It's going to be called out later on. It turns out Catelyn did not get Stannis' letter. It turns out Stannis also is behind

and hasn't heard what, that an entire kingdom is rebelling? Or two of them? So fascinating. Everyone's behind um here but coming back to this line i i find it so important i think it's it's great it threads together stanis's and denarius's characters and especially this big theme that's in the books we talk a lot about uh you know that both of them both renly and Stannis yearning for love but this line speaks to the

loneliness of power and monarchy that I think comes through so much in both Stannis and Dany's stories because it's very much related to Dany's final Storm of Swords chapter where she asks do all gods feel so lonely after she takes Meereen and she's like on top of the pyramid and and she's thinking it to herself who else is she going to voice that out to and we see stannis having a lot of moments by himself not really divulging anything and we're going to see that also in cat's storyline as she watches her own son become more and more isolated from her and his subjects and also you know jane westerling calls that out too she's like i can't comfort him can't talk to him. There's no one close to him. And that's a big part of what this story explores.

And you called out the parallels to the Dan Civil War earlier through the clothing of Stannis and Renly. And this is very much related to that, of how power and rulership destroyed the bonds between people. We're seeing it within families and turn what should be love, what should be a pact, staying together into enemies. we're seeing that between Renly and Stannis and we see it over and over again in the Targaryen stories we see it even early on in Dany's story when her brother who's supposed to be her protector ends up being her oppressor I I really love that Daenerys

comparison especially uh because we really followed some of those Dany parallels in the last book, right, for Catelyn. And now getting to see them change and kind of transform as Stannis' mission also changes and be more aligned there. far different from Catalin, right? Who, as we go along, slowly becomes, you know, desensitized and dissociative and farther away from the world and what's happening. I'm definitely appreciating

those parallels as we go along. The Catalin and Dany parallels a lot more. Oh, absolutely. They're both, you know, traveling right now, right? Yeah. Gotta embrace both of them as they also become stannis parallels you know gotta try to gotta try to okay the best line in the whole whole chapter in my no i'm just kidding maybe not the whole chapter there's a lot of really

great lines in here but renly enters right so the line, Stannis has his kings have no friends, only subjects and enemies. And then Renly goes, and brothers! And he comes in and everyone's like applauding, laugh track plays, and he's splendid. He's in his green velvet doublet and sad, and he's like, look under your chairs. I'm giving you all tea wow his black hair is spilling out beneath his golden crown of roses and the jade stag is at its

front jagged chunks of black diamonds are studding his sword belt as we mentioned and a chain of gold and emeralds is looped around his neck I would take back everything I said about Renly if he did give you The Winds of Winter. I would do it for Stannis too.

Okay, that's a lot. Wow. Got a low price. Again, coming back to the colors of the Baratheon Brothers clothing, it's interesting that neither of them are really sporting the classic purely Baratheon colors anymore.

And I think that the book series does a better job of being like, people wear other colors. You can't just only wear the same colors all the time. You loser. I mean, the show does that too, right? Very well in telling characters' stories through color. But sometimes I think we get caught up in this idea of characters in certain colors but cersei wears a lot of green which you know i too would wear colors that bring out my eyes but i have brown eyes so it's actually not very exciting anyway so neither of them are wearing

just the purely classic like gold and black and unlike robert who had like everything going for him in his messaging he could fight solely as a Baratheon he fought as just with under those Baratheon banners and was able to rally people behind him and interestingly neither Stannis nor Renly on their own have the strength to be able to do that they have to rely on the power of others as Stannis needs Melisandre's strength and he's also very much seduced by her talk of power and at long last that appreciation that he craves whereas for Renly he needs the power of the Tyrells he wants to rival the Lannisters right so it's a little bit of that survival aspect again but it also stands interestingly in contrast to Robb's sigil right because they're like all right so what are

you doing here Catelyn she's like oh my son's king. Rob's able to do it on his own. His lords are the one who chose him and crowned him. He is doing this campaign for the North under his own colors. He might have his own personal sigil, right? But it's still the stark colors, just as it was for Robert Baratheon, for whom he was named before him, right? And rob's campaign for the north and the riverlands is very much also about survival but not just for him for these kingdoms as well who have you know been suffering under this regime yeah it's really hard right because there are so many criticisms i obviously want to keep aiming at rob's campaign and what they choose to do. Yeah.

Yeah. It's hard because it is not just about the Starks. Mm-hmm. You know I have issues with that, personally. I agree. I mean, there's a lot of things going on there. Yeah. And I do love that his sigil is the Starks, you know.

I thought you were going to say it was just the wolf's head. And I was like, that's rude. That's like my second offense of the episode. Round it up. Chloe is locked up. Third strike, she's out. I mean, you didn't technically make this offense. I just laid it on you. You just imagined it. You're just like Stannis. You're out here imagining offenses. I just projected it onto you. Okay, Stannie. That's right. That's so true. imagined it you're just like stannis you're out here i just projected it onto you okay that's right that's so true you know we've been really interested in which one of us drops the f-bomb more we were so interested that eliana put the poll up on twitter to see and have you all weigh

in on it but now i'm out here like which one of us is stannis and which one of us is renly oh i don't know but i don't think it's either of us i don't think either of us is Renly. Oh, I don't know. I don't think it's either of us. I don't think either of us are like them very much. No, one of us has to be. I mean, if you have to... No, neither of us have to be. Listen, the bread is cut in,

oh, I guess three ways. One of us could be Robert. Who fucks more? Anyways. Of course we juxtapose Brienne carrying Renly's banner right with melisandre and stanis i love this on this reread that stands out so hard yes yes uh it's that blue versus red interestingly which are also the telecolors but also that's like a that's like

a thing right a meme on the internet thing it's called red versus blue clearly george had a time machine and uh was inspired by that i that that's the only explanation i can give you i mean at that i you should that expand that al. It's family versus duty. That's what that is. Blue versus red. Brienne is... Wow. Duty? Well, I don't know.

Whatever. Play with it. I don't know. Have fun. It's just a thought, but... No one's got honor here. No one has honor. That's why I didn't lead with honor, because honor's a horse.

I love Brienne, but she does not look good in this chapter either she's simping for a time of it in this chapter and i do want to say still love brienne you know i know we've done a lot of nope we don't love renly or stannis still today but brienne's still good in my book still good yeah yeah but i guess melisandre's neutral in this chapter she hasn't done anything wrong she's just chilling she said she has like one line um she's like water tribe but the opposite as she heads out um anyway stannis greets renly curtly and renly corrects him with stannis greets lord renly curtly and renly corrects him king renly and they discuss their banners

melisandre you, one of her few lines here pipes out to say, Stannis has taken the heart of the Lord of Light for his sigil. Renly is amused and says that it will make battle much easier to distinguish their enemies. And Catelyn tries to call for peace between the parties once more,

but Stannis, unsmiling, says, The Iron Throne is my bedright. All those who deny that are my foes. And then, of course... This is a very relatable passage, honestly, so I can't fault him this one. I know I sound like a Renly apologist because I agree with the things

he says, but I don't like him. Yeah, he has good lines. The whole of the realm denies it brother old men deny it with their death rattle unborn children deny it in their mother's wombs

they deny it in Dorne they deny it on the wall no one wants you for their king sorry too real I love the sorry at the end. Sorry. He's like, not sorry.

Sorry about it. Hashtag. Not sorry. Not sorry. Hashtag. I will say, you know, part of, I think, what makes Renly's line so compelling in this chapter is it does very much work in dialogue with what happens in this book right this is the same book where veris says riddle of power resides or men believe it resides is spoken and catelyn catelyn is also trying to explain this in this chapter it's not just runley making the argument catelyn is saying

yeah all right and people believe in the power of my son people have bestowed him with this responsibility. It's not just you two. And my people like my 15-year-old son more than you. Well, she definitely thinks that her 15-year-old son is more mature than these two. I don't know that she's wrong. And that's obvious, too. Later, she

sizes him up against Robar, who's 21. She thinks that Rob can seriously contend with these idiots. Yeah. I mean, he lost his dad at an influential age, too, so no excuses, everyone. Anyway.

Stannis clenches his jaw, saying that he swore never to treat with Renly while Renly wore his traitor's vow, and that he very much regrets coming here now which also a mood and also I get it I get Stannis saying that because not only is it this whole exchange is very hurtful to him but also to treat with Renly as a king is to then give his claim legitimacy and that works against him yeah that is kind of like the checkmate of

this chapter it's a total like stale match here like it was never gonna happen i think that's the biggest part like neither of them were ever going to cave to one another and that becomes apparent as it goes on and it's exactly as you said they don't like each other they love each other but they hate each other and that doesn't allow for this progress to happen and they don't cave because that's i think very much what they're trying to tell us with that story again of during god's grief that's the legacy that they're stubborn even at the cost of everything yeah and others many others yeah they want it all and in the end they have a castle they're on it all catalan reminds them the lannister armies are gathering at the golden tooth and beneath casterly rock while they continue to fight and no one's trying to stop them except for her

and her son renly says rob has won a few battles but i'll win the war the lannisters can wait i'm like how are you gonna do that you've done literally nothing you have won no battles nada not shit and like i know that's the point but yeah yeah i mean and stannis is like finally he's fed up he's like make your proposals or i'm leaving and renly's like dismount bend the knee swear allegiance and stannis is like what the fuck excuse me what what what the fuck and he like chokes back rage he says you're nothing but a younger brother and a thief and a usurper and friendly reminds him well robert was also a usurper so i should be able to bear the shame easily catalan interrupts them once more right with our our great favorite brother line listen to yourselves if you were

sons of mine i would bang your heads together and lock you in a bedchamber until you remembered you were brothers. So Stannis and Catelyn are of similar ages, right? But, you know, she really does feel that much more mature than him as she tries to talk sense into both of these foolish men. I feel like Renly has a talent for dragging for dragging i guess stannis down to his level i mean stannis also is like very petty but that's why i don't fight 19 year olds i don't get into arguments with 19 year olds because not with it i too am wiser anyway stannis says that catelyn presumes too much and that her son is no less a traitor than and that he says his day will come as well and that pisses her off

badly and i'm just like yeah dude like this is what i mean you don't go around you don't go around insulting people's dead husbands to their face you also don't go around just telling people i'm gonna come for your son to their mother's face like what the fuck she's a mama you don't say that you don't just say that to people the lack of tact entirely like holy shit it is like stannis does not have tact and that is literally one of his downfalls if he had a little bit of tact i might like him you know renly gets some good snipes in because of his little tiny bit of tact he has it's not a lot but uh yeah and catalan takes this poorly she goes off because i would too understandably loin through to my loin but yeah what the fuck

she's like joffrey and tommy are actually the heirs by the way you guys are just rebels like dumb rebels and renly's like oh lady catalan's been busy she hasn't seen your aim away message stannis relores whore xxx and stannis is like oh worm they're not heirs they're incest babies catalan and catalan is like speechless she's like she thinks this is a great line i love this line i love just even the bits of cersei that are involved here because catalan thinks would even cersei be so mad catalan was speechless which is crazy because that also is foreshadowing for her not speaking ever again right i'm just kidding it's not for i just wanted to get my snipe in too

oh well i was like yeah chloe yeah speechless it does remind me you know cersei doesn't really think of catelyn often which is surprising she thinks of ned being an idiot she thinks of the she-wolf sansa and her blasted little sister but she doesn't really think of catalan often she thinks of her twice and she actually thinks of her when they find tywin dead which i think is a really interesting parallel to how catalan is going through her father's death right in cersei's first chapter take the quarrel out of him this is the king's hand and my father my forefather should i scream and tear my hair they said cadeline stark had clawed her own face to bloody ribbons when the phrase slew her precious rob i mean you have to almost

appreciate that it's as far as cersei goes that was almost respect for catelyn right that she was like should i just lose it because i'm gonna lose it if you motherfuckers don't you know get your shit together with my father my fucking lord father defender of the realm and later cersei talks about killing Jon Snow, right? She's discussing sending people there to deal with this bastard on the watch. And this is interesting because she thinks that Catelyn totally was a mouse or she would have smothered this Jon Snow in his cradle. Instead, she's left the filthy task to me. Even though Catelyn's like, wow, Cersei's cray cray. Catelyn understands Cersei's motives right just as cersei kind of understands hers their universes unfold and rotate around

this love they have for their children whether it's toxic and an extension of power in cersei's case uh let alone the only love she has left in her life, or Catelyn's chapters right as she loses this love bit by bit in these connections. Cersei's chapters and feasts just feel like such a juxtaposition for Catelyn who just went through losing her father in these chapters. Absolutely. That's a great point. You know, seeing Catelynatelyn you know what you've just said about them mourning their fathers and we'll see that we'll see that a bit more in the upcoming chapters but I love this um line

that you've pulled out here of where Cersei criticizes Catelyn for not having smothered Jon Snow in his cradle because I mean yeah that is what Cersei would do because Cersei did do that as we discussed at the top of this

episode so just like killing children whatever fuck them kids fuck them kids that's Cersei Renly also a little

also Stannis all Literally in Stannis. All these people. They actually would have probably gotten... To be fair, literally in Lancel and Loras' cases. Am I right? That's true, and it's not great. It's actually very problematic.

Yeah. Well, Renly had read Stannis's letter at Horn Hill and says it took his breath away and he says were it only true Stannis would indeed be Robert's heir and we're all like shaking everyone we're like it is true we spent the whole first book on this and this ticks stannis off because he's asking are you calling me a liar and cadlin's like robert could never have known or circe would have lost her head in an instant which is true i love that renly's like if only this were true because, again, like you said, legitimacy. Renly refuses to comment or lend any legitimacy to Stannis. He is a good politician at that. You have to let him have that.

And another great thing is that Catelyn is also a great politician because she actually immediately understands within like two paragraphs. She's like, huh, I get it now. I get it now. And within the next Catelyn chapter, even she understands what happened to Bran. Right. So, yeah, all these men and people and disbelief for like a whole book over what's going on with the parentage of these kids and still can't figure it out. And Catelyn got it right.

I think that's impressive. Love her or hate her. That's that's fucking impressive. It's just smart cookie uh she put those pieces together right away and i find randall's influence here so interesting especially with what we know about him in the future uh and what we know about him with his past how he treated sam right sam tarley as well as in the future that he might join up with agan and that he deflects and you know goes where the money goes randall hosting renly and then tarley also being very boldly confident throughout this chapter he's

very confident very free to speak about whatever he wants about to his king about plans about war what Renly should be doing should he kill Stannis or not and I think that's also something interesting happening because Randall Tarly fought for House Targaryen during Robert's rebellion he defeated Robert's forces in battle a couple times Renly choosing him as like this sinister older figure this older male figure in his life whether it's kind of a uh father figure or brother figure to fill in for these roles of these brothers that are gone and father gone renly chooses him as like his right hand war commander kind of that ruse feeling in a way uh but it kind of feels like a fuck you robert like tarly likes me why didn't he like you robert i think uh randall tarly was just following the

tyrells and the tyrells were following the targaryens but here the tyrells have sworn to renly but i mean randall does suck he's i hate. I hate him so much. You know, I might, like, not care for Renly or Stannis, but I hate Randall Tarly. But yeah, I think that's interesting that he goes for Renly. And I think that speaks a little to what we might see of Randall Tarly and where he might pledge his allegiances later on. Because it's not just like, you know, you're talking about him as a Roose Bolton figure I think Randall Charlie for some reason holds a lot of esteem among the other lords

even though he holds no esteem with me and he should be trying to please me and cater to my interests my Saga of Ice and Fire interests I think that's right though I mean

I would say like he he obviously is catering to whatever power he can get and we see him move along right like oh Tyrell's want to go here go here instead but I think the other thing I've been thinking is like resources right like they have really large

land and a lot of hunting grounds. I mean, their whole sigil is about hunting. Their whole thing is being the huntsman. And that's obviously also, like, a metaphor for the way he is in battle and blah, blah, blah. But, I mean, resources and food, I mean, it makes sense. He is a part of that ecosystem of the Reach. He's a very big part. And having his support and his war commander's support as one of the few...

Being a loyalist. He's one of the few loyalists that actually prevailed. Yeah, and I think that's part of why he's held in such high esteem. Because he's supposed to be a very good commander, war person. good commander war person and um yeah i think he just follows he just follows what he's told to do by his liege lord and i think that that that might be significant right if he's going for this rebel lord now because his lord liege lord is doing so i think we could see him intentionally choose to depart from them, right? To follow Aegon later on. I think that's likely. And I think that'll be interesting that he finally goes for what he believes in, even though I don't really care about Randall Tarly's beliefs. care about randall tarley's beliefs where's his son sam i mean like his son sam that is maybe like we're gonna see there's a little bit of similarities there where sam's like okay interesting um but what if i also chose my own ruler and made a different ruler hmm yeah that's a thought i think he just rigged the whole election i think that's a great i I can't wait to do Sam. Ah, yes. Yes. God, fuck Randall Tarly. Have I said that lately? Fuck that guy. God, I hate him. I hate him so much.

and how you had suspicions and you know and he responds well everyone would have thought i was being self-serving and if lord aaron told robert maybe he would have listened so stanis is like maybe someone will understand before i tell them bye good luck sure renly and stanis then snark about this for a couple minutes and stannis is like obviously cersei poisoned lord john which no that's not obviously true as we all know catelyn then though takes this and she puts the pieces together she's like interesting because liza accused the queen of murdering john erin herself and then later she ended up laying the murder at Tyrion's feet. Someone enters the room just before. And here it's Stannis just disregarding it with like, so what? If you step in and nest the snakes, does it matter which one bites you first? And you know what?

It fucking does. Okay. Turns out it does matter here. All right. And if everyone would shut up for two seconds and listen to Catelyn, she could have been like, it's interesting because my sister was all like, she could be like, oh, but it's because, you know, the Lannisters were trying to take Eliza's kid and Robert Arryn was going to be fostered with her. And Samus could be like, what?

No. No, I was going to foster Robert Arryn. And everything could be cleared up. And everything would be like amazing. And they'd be like, whoa, what is going on? But no, that's not what happens. Because then we wouldn't have this book series yeah well that that is interesting i didn't think about that i mean these are the people to ask

right like why didn't you small talk that one of were you gonna semi-adopt robert aaron and it is kind of sad for stannis like i can see where this sucks for him in that aspect, because he was that close to being the new brother. You know what I mean? He was that close to being Robert in his own eyes, that he was going to have Robert Aaron's kid as a house guest and a new alliance, right, with them. It is sad for him. I was so close to getting invited to the popular kids table is what Stannis is thinking. It is sad for him.

I'm like, wow, it's just like that time in eighth grade when I was almost popular, but then it turns out they were all bullies. Well, for Stannis, it's that they all died. Yeah.

That's, that's worse. I guess that's also sad well renly is sick of all this fun drama though until stannis you know what i have more swords than you he slides his hand into his cloak and stannis reaches for his sword but then renly only produces a peach and asks stannis do you want a peach and he takes a bite juice running from his mouth where blood would run soon as well i guess and stanis doesn't want the fruit though caitlin is annoyed as fuck again and i think everyone should have taken the peach because i like peaches that's it i'm like mildly allergic

to them but i will power through because i love peaches i do love peaches i do a lot and a good peach is really good that's this chapter i will also add not just teaches of peaches what else is in the teach uh what what uh anyways what but the other one i would put in is let's also add steve miller band right like really love your peaches want to shake your tree yeah yeah that I don't know this. That's what I wanna add to our peach course. The Joker? I'm gonna change your life, girl. I mean, I guess I probably did already, but I'ma do it again, girl!

Anyways. In many ways. In many ways. Many ways. Look, we've talked about the fucking peach. We've talked about this fucking peach many times. Asha and Carl, we probably talked about the peach. We talked about some articles about the peach. We've talked about the peach.

We've talked about the blood orange. We've talked about the peach we've talked about the blood orange we've talked about the peach we've talked about all the fruits but you know who else has talked about the peach that we haven't talked about talking about the peach george george rr martin talked about the peach whomst he's the guy that directed the books that were based on the show oh huh interesting books i'll have to look into him he says the peach represents pleasure it's tasting the juices of life stannis is a martial man concerned with his duty right that that blue versus red duty being red and with that peach renly says family smell the roses because stannis is always concerned with duty and honor and what he should be doing and never stops to taste the fruit

renly wants him to taste the fruit but it's lost george also adds he had hoped the tv show could adapt that scene you know that he wrote because of the TV show. But they didn't. Which is just one of many disappointments to lay on the ground. It is. It is. And as you said, we've talked about Peaches many times.

We're going to link again in the notes for this episode Fat Walda's, our good friend Fat Walda's post about Peaches from a few years ago with great thoughts about it, as well as another thread from a deleted user about the peaches as summer joy, youth extravagance, loss and concealing malice. Both of those will be linked in the notes. I do think that's the latter. The latter we've definitely talked about. I know that.

And I think we've mentioned Fat Walda's as well. But I know we've talked about the latter because it's honestly, they're both so good. They cover everything you need. We don't have to talk about it. Life's great. Nope. Life's great. Nope.

Of course, Renly does not appreciate Stannis' rejection. He's like, how could you do this to me? It's my last attempt. A man should never refuse to taste a peach renly said as he tossed the stone away he may never get the chance again life is short stannis remember what the starks say winter is coming he wiped his mouth with the back of his hand. Idiot. Life is short, Stannis. Shorter than you think, Renly. Listen, I broke my phone this weekend after making fun of one of my best friends for breaking their phone all weekend.

So what I'm saying is, Renly, don't do it, because your phone about to get broke, okay? Okay? Chill the fuck out. You should have fucking shut your mouth before karma and stannis came to fuck up your day redly redly tells stannis he hasn't ever liked him what is this john chapters nobody likes you sorry no amongst us our. But also including him. Yeah, actually, that was the whole chapter.

That was him. But Renly does say he's his blood, right? He's like, look, we're brothers. I don't want to kill you. And then he gifts him Storm's End, as Robert once had gifted to him. And Stannis is like, it's not yours to give. It's mine.

Not true, technically true technically but you know technically stannis says that he deserves it right and renly's like sighs he's like brienne what am i to do with this brother of mine he refuses my peach my castle my wedding to my beautiful wife and stannis is like oh you're mummer's farce of a wedding because renly was scheming to make marjorie roberts queen he reveals i do have to say stannis is an lgbtqia king because he doesn't discriminate he didn't say it was a mummer's farce because renly wanted to fuck people of his gender he said it was a mummer's farce because Renly wanted to fuck people of his gender. He said it was a mummer's farce because he wanted to make Marjorie Roberts queen. Which makes no sense to me. Like,

how does that make it a farce? Right. That's what I don't get. I'm like, I don't really get that logic. Also, you know what I realize is very rude. renly should have offered peaches to brienne and to melisandre and to caitlin also everyone should have been offered a peach um that is a little rude i think you're right also he has enough it was also rude of him to be like i'm gonna gift you storm's end you know talking about people with no tack that was actually tactless but i think he was intentionally trolling so maybe maybe it was all, it all worked out the way he wanted it to. There's a line here that I think is kind of interesting in terms of the way that it's phrased, right? He's like, yeah,

you're asking me to make the girl Robert's queen, but what does it matter? The boar got Robert and I got Marjorie. And it reminds me a little of this other line from the construction of a line that Robert says, right, about Rhaegar with, I killed him, Ned, I drove the spike right through that black armor into his black heart and he died at my feet. They made up songs about it, yet somehow he still won. He has Lyanna now and I have her.

And I don't know, something about the construction and what it's about feels so similar, right? The boar also being dead, having Robert, that death, right? Robert is what Stannis and Renly both desire, the same way that Robert desires, not exactly

the same way that Robert desires Lyanna, but we talked about this during Davos' chapters where they project everything onto Lyanna, or where Robert projects Robert desires Lyanna, but we talked about this during Davos' chapters where they project everything onto Lyanna, or where Robert projects everything onto Lyanna and has made this his pedestal that he's chasing after. That's what Robert is for both Renly and

Stannis. And they're born as Robert now, and he has Margaery, the consolation prize, the woman that he was going to wed to Robert just as Robert got Cersei as his consolation prize Thaoi's stuck with his lover's sister what a bummer and you know it is very

similarly constructed too to some of the things Stannis says later in his plot so I do love how George has kind of framed them with these regretful remorseful Baratheon looks out the window sadly kind of things going on here but the language there is perfect and renly of course doesn't get sad because renly is wonderful renly gives some asshole retorts he's like well i'm

gonna have a son pretty soon we're like okay, okay. Unlike you, Stannis. And then he crosses the line, which, okay, hold on. First, before he crosses the line to talk shit about Shireen, I just want to say Stannis has a son that night. Oh, interesting. Stannis has his very first bastard that night. Yeah.

That baby's life is also short. Short-lived. Yep, short-lived. Well, Runley crosses over and he starts to talk shit about the rumors that got put out by tyrian and cersei and he's like shireen salise patch face you know like i would understand if i let my fool fuck my wife because i didn't want to and i'm like that doesn't help your case here runley uh and this is the moment though that his fate is right because

stanis i'm like wow that's weird that's like uh that's like you being like i too would send my fool to fuck my wife hmm anyways yeah stanis is just done with this shit here like you don't you don't talk shit about my only child i don't have much but i do have shireen okay hey i didn't say it stannis thought it okay and then just for now just for now and then later on he's like i don't know i don't really care about that kid anyway no uh stannis's goth heel turn uh he yanks out his azura high sparkle wand next and it like gleams in the sun brienne immediately moves in front of renly and her swords in hand she's like put up your sword status put up your steel she should she's doing her job dude yeah i will say at least catelyn knew how to move

move on from death at first you know until everyone died but she doesn't know they're not all dead anyways that's what differentiates her from these two um and from robert for someone who fancies himself so composed and serious it actually is really tacky of status to just like bust out his sword like this right especially if he doesn't truly wish to use it i think he wanted to be like all right you guys look i'm chosen i got a cool sword. But the action and Brienne's reaction, I think, makes sense, right? Because recall from Catelyn's own chapters before Robb is crowned and has experienced war in his father's death in A Game of Thrones, Catelyn 3, and this is meant to highlight Robb's immaturity. That's the whole point. He pulls out his live steel sword upon hearing that Bran

may have been pushed from the tower. Then Roderick scolds him, saying, Put that away! The Lannisters are a hundred leagues away. Never draw your sword unless you mean to use it. How many times must I tell you, foolish boy? And that's what Stannis is doing here. Does he really mean to

skewer his brother here and now no he needs to do it later and the shadow baby i mean it feels there's a lot here that's like you could see where it breaks you could see where the line was crossed and you could see where the hurt was too deep that he could never go back and as we'll talk about it all revolves around you know sir courtney penrose really i mean it's it's the ruiner for both of their campaigns cadillan though during all this she's just sitting there like the this is fine dog comic meme where he's just sitting there with the coffee cup and flames in the

background and his eyes are all big she's's just sitting there like, this is fine. Cersei Lannister is laughing herself breathless, Catelyn thought wearily. Stannis pointed his shining sword at his brother. I am not without mercy. Thundered he who was notoriously without mercy.

Nor do I wish to sully Lightbringer with a brother's blood for the sake of the mother who bore us both. I will give you this night to rethink your folly, Renly. Strike your banners and come to me before dawn, and I will grant you Storm's End and your old seat on the council, and even name you my heir until a son is born to me. Otherwise, I shall destroy you.

These are honestly way better terms than what Rob offered Cersei. I mean, this is honestly really lenient. He's like, you're my heir. When I read this, I really thought about the parallel to Rob's terms in the last chapters because this is so lenient. This is really generous. This is so generous. He's like, if you come to me before dawn, I'll grant you Storm's End and your old seat.

So he's willing to put up and be with his brother in the same room, but he hates him. He's willing enough to... This is a piece for Stannis, I will say. This is his version of making a piece. You're heir until a son's born to me. Newsflash, you're not getting a son. That's pretty good. That's-

I mean, it's good. You could kill him. I mean, look, if I was Renly, you could poison the motherfucker, you know what I mean? I've been playing a lot of CK3 lately. Sorry, Crusader Kings 3 lately and I think that shows that comes back to what you were saying right they may not like each other but they love each other

like to offer all that I think is loving until the I'll destroy you thing well yeah until that part but like it may not seem it but as you're saying these are generous terms and I mean yeah if he's the, that means Renly could kill him. That's a sign of trust. And everything that's going on here has been such a huge breach of trust between these two brothers. But this is, I think, this is an olive branch.

Yeah. As olive branchy as Stannis can be. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, I do love this line of circe lannister's laughing herself breathless catelyn thought we were late because you know what she's right that did happen that actually happened i mean that literally happens yeah yeah literally she literally she sits she's got everyone's number again you know i said you may not like

catelyn or you know hate her love her whatever at least she's smart but you may not love cersei you may hate her whatever but the woman's got style okay she's fucking funny i'd be laughing too and i mean these two are imbeciles that's that's the biggest point of this chapter that's that is the big point and i mean again catlin catlin called it she's like called it of oh so this is how ned reacted and then she called it again if this is how robert reacted she's calling it again here this is how seriously he's reacting she knows everyone she's like oh fuck uh anyway but she could not have called this thing that was going to happen in front of her. This one, she's surprised.

She's like, what the fuck is going on and why am I here? Holy shit. Yeah. And Renly, instead of accepting these generous terms, he laughs, right? Like, he pulls a Cersei here. He laughs hysterically and tells him to look to the southern banners across the way stans is like will those bolts of cloth make you king and he's like no their swords will make me king dipshit tyrell rowan tarly karen tarth penrose foswick hi molendor estermont sell me hightower oakheart crane caswell blackbar

morrigan beesberry schirmer dunn footley even your wives brothers and the uncles of house florence are supporting me yeah dude it's actually a good speech and again i part of what makes it strong is how well it goes with various his riddle and i mean this is the least of his power as he says he has 100 000 swords and pikes and spears behind him ready to destroy stannis's 5 000 codfish lords onion knights sell swords which i will say that feels unfair and it is an interesting depiction because that is one fair part of stannis here that his people are people right like you're reading codfish lords and onion knights where of course renly's group is a little more i don't know prom group i digress this is a i don know, it's probably an effective gardening, but the only

ruler of House Selmy right now in the story is Barristan's great nephew, Lord Arston. That's the only named ruler. That is, of course, who Barristan mimics in name when he is with Dany. And that's interesting, right? That Renly in the last chapter had asked Catelyn uh you know in that vulnerable confidants kind of role do you guys have Selmy implying that uh Selmy is what makes the king right like we discussed like Criston Cole here he names House Selmy as a supporter which it's probably Arstan supporting him, right, as a marsh lord in the reach, a marcher lord. So in one, like, very Doylist hand, George is probably just gardening here and adding a house from the Stormlands to Renly's repertoire. But on the other hand,

I really do like to think Renly might be peacocking here a little bit, because Stannis, like to think Renly might be peacocking here a little bit because Stannis Stannis likely doesn't have Barristan right as we know we know where Barristan is we know in the story where he's coming back but Stannis likely doesn't know where Barristan is or have a clue who has him if Renly has him that could put a bit of fear in him so like why not say house sell me when you announce all the houses supporting you from both the Stormlands and the Reach? Why not lie? It's a resume. Yeah, I mean, that's the thing, you know, at least Renly showed up and did the interview. You know, he tried to put forth some qualifications.

Are they true? I don't know. I don't know. But I think that's a great point regarding naming House Selmy and invoking that legend, even though Barristan's not there. Because no matter how much Ned respected Barristan, and that's part of why we put Barristan after Ned, there are similarities between them and their story. Barristan is also in some ways quite like Catelyn. He still thinks that the old rules matter, even though clearly they don't,

and that's why he doesn't have a job anymore. But yeah, that's the point when it all comes crashing down, right? Because that's never supposed to happen to a Kingsguard. That was the tip-off, dude. But he does hold to that tradition, which is why, again, he would have never gone to Renly, and that's also why he would have never gone to Robb's cause, no matter how much he respected Ned. That makes no sense for Barristan's character.

And it makes sense to assume that maybe he would go to Stannis after being let go from Lannister on ploy. But, A, as we've discussed, Stannis is clearly too late. And also, in a way, I mean, Barristan doesn't know that the children are bastards, so to him this would still be treason, especially if he believes that the children are still Baratheon heirs, right? That still doesn't work for him.

So the only other honorable path left to him is to follow that last vestige of legitimacy by going to another one, that original line of the Targaryens, and that's how we end up seeing him with Daenerys. And, you know, Catelyn is painted often, as we've discussed, as a traditionalist,

and in some ways that's true, right? As you pointed out, in terms of her views on gender roles last chapter. And also, as you pointed out, in terms of her views on gender roles last chapter. And also, as we've discussed, she's less of super adhering to tradition so much as pragmatism. Yes. But, you know, she does have an adherence to social rules and the political rules of Westeros. But her way of sticking to those rules are different from Barristan's own code and interpretation. And I think that comes forward really beautifully in this chapter when Robb Stark's rebellion is juxtaposed against both Stannis and Renly's causes.

Because, you know, it's a cause that Catelyn supports not just because it's her son's, but I'm sure that plays a big part of it. So please do not threaten him to her face. her sons but i'm sure that plays a big part of it so please do not threaten him to her face but it's because she also sees that there is honor and justice in this new regime where her son was chosen by these lords to to be a king because they felt that the old one was failing them and i think that makes sense in catelyn's mind because that is very much hoster's legacy as well, right? That is to an extent what her marriage is born out of, supporting Robert's rebellion and later on Robert Baratheon's crown, who despite being a failure, neither of his brothers live up to being

able to wear that crown. And like, we we see how foolish stanis looks with no one wanting him to be king you know what good is legitimacy if you don't have the will of the people if you don't have that mandate it's something that rob has in his cause and then also with renly right uh what good are the numbers when your regime has no substance and no real aims like when there is no action compared to the spilled blood of the Northerners and the Riverlands, the people who are fighting for their freedom, their lives, because they were denied justice so many times, and their suffering. This chapter really, I think, besides setting up the tragedy of the Baratheon brothers, sharpens the case for the Northerners war yeah and i think that not only that but also it sharpens it not

just now but later i really truly think that stannis and john's chapters in a dance with dragons are kind of this carried on now that i think on that interesting yeah yeah that is interesting because you know he does get along pretty decently with john he's like i hate ned but he's like i kind of like this proto-ned but he doesn't know it oh whoa i don't care how seasoned a warrior you think you are, Stannis. That host of yours won't survive the first charge of my vanguard. We shall see, brother.

Some of the light seemed to go out of the world when Stannis slid his sword back into its scabbard. Come the dawn, we shall see. I hope your new god's a merciful one brother Stannis snorted and galloped away disdainful the red priestess lingered a moment behind look to your own sins

Lord Renly she said as she wheeled her horse around water drive bloodbending that's what she did right there even though it's the opposite element I don't care there is something so sad to me though

about that line of where the light seems to go out of the world when Stannis reshoots his sword because it does come to those brothers preparing for battle. It shows Stannis has resolved to fight with his brother and Renly thinks little of it.

I find that there is something sad. That light leaking out of the world as the two brothers who are basically each other's only surviving immediate family, just becoming enemies. And I'd be sad.

Ooh, ooh. It's the opposite of the Starks, right, who are longing to be together and reign together and rule together. It's the exact opposite of all of them right now living in darkness and, like, just praying they can come back together after the last chapter. I mean, this being sandwiched in between Arya and Sansa, this chapter, its location in the story, that feels relevant, right? Showing Arya and Sansa's captivity and suffering while these brothers just choose this. Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, again, part of why they're choosing it is because they're following.

They couldn't let go of Robert. And I mean, I'm just going to say that, like, coming back to Catelyn, like, she didn't get to do that, right? If she just kept holding on to, like, the people that she was supposed to be promised or go to, right? The way that Robert did, the way that Renly and Stannis do with Robert's love. the way that Runley and Stannis do with Robert's love Stannis, like Catelyn would still be like I was supposed to get Brandon but all I got was him

and she would have lost out on a lot she accepted Lauren to move on and live the fulfilling life which apparently many of the men in this book series cannot do, not just the Baratheon brothers, also Littlefinger and she does it over and over again, right?

She has to do it when Ned dies. And then finally, it only breaks when she loses everything, like all of her children. But she loses so much more than either, like any of them. And I think that shows a lot of strength on her part. Yeah. And seeing how relevant this is with those brothers and what they chose and Catelyn's role into it, it makes me think that, you know, George will explore those kind of tense moments, right? Those tensions between the Stark siblings when we get back to them, when they come back together as we get to Tiwau and Adas and the rest of the books you know all 15 of them the rest of the books the rest of

them a brunch what did you say a bunch of brunches yeah a bunch of brunches or whatever the fuck I said a bunch of a bunch yeah a bunch of a bunches whatever whatever the book is gonna fucking be called all 15 wheel of time game of thrones books and i do think like they will the starks will have those tensions right uh in the midst of rob's death when you have this great great sibling that dies this is something i think that you bring up a lot of when you have this great sibling that dies and where do you go how do you move on with your people from there how do you be the best for the realm you live in and i think that being explored by the starks in full through many povs will be really fulfilling in the wake of exploring this through

cat's pov yeah it will be that's a great point catalan and lord Renly return to his camp where thousands await him. Hundreds of thousands. It could be. No, I'm just kidding. But thousands. They're not there yet. And only a few people await her. 25 good men, in fact, Eliana. Oh, interesting. That's different. What does it mean? You know, you'd think that Renly would be like a little shaken in front of cat but instead he calls the event amusing and wonders wonder where i can get a sword like that like stanis's he says then that well makes no matter loris will make me a gift of it after the battle i just have to say and i am being super, I'm not even being facetious, that Renly is much more like Robert than people think. He makes several, and I will continue to

point them out, but several little jabs about Loras throughout this chapter, and this is one of them, that Loras is going to make him a gift of a red sword after the battle which to the the common person could just mean loris is gonna kill stannis and tear his heart out and give me his sword but also i'm like so loris is gonna give you his red sword huh and it's not the only euphemism renly uses in this chapter right we get to the praying in a minute. Renly looks for love, right? And just like Robert. And I definitely see this as what Robert was like at the beginning of the rebellion. Flirting, fucking, fighting, making speeches, laughing, jesting, jeering, feasting, being a slutty McSlutslut. And slut and obviously yes we don't know much more about renly in this moment besides his monogamy here with loris we don't get an expansion because he

dies we don't really get to know what his love life would have been before young loris uh but i do think it's very much like robert at his height in the rebellion you know pure charisma we see that he has appetites like ro, not just what, throughout these chapters. You know, we saw it in the previous chapter with the dinners, the way that he holds these parties and the melees. And with the peach, right? And how he says life is short and to, you know, indulge. He's absolutely like Robert in that philosophy. and to indulge. He's absolutely like Robert in that philosophy.

Catelyn tells him that, well, Runley, you know, Stannis is the lawful heir. And Runley says, while he lives though, it's a fool's law. And asks why the oldest son and not the better fitted? He says the crown would suit him, as it never suited Robert, and would never suit Stannis. He's all like, I haven't been to be a great king, strong, yet generous, clever, just, diligent, loyal to my friends, and terrible to my enemies, yet capable of forgiveness, patient.

Humble, Catelyn supplied. You must allow a king some flaws, my catelyn felt very tired it had all been for nothing the brathian brothers would drown each other in blood while her own son faced the lannisters alone nothing she could say or do would stop it man ain't that true rip rip she then thinks it's time to go home to river run to close her father's eyes she thinks she may be a poor envoy but she is a good mourner gotta respect that when renly learned his brother had assaulted storms and he decides to split his forces that night part of his foot he leaves at bitter bridge with his queen along with food wagons carts and animals and animals what the fuck was that he himself leads his knights and

free riders east cat thinks runley's so much like robert in that but robert had always had ned there right to temper him with caution ned Ned would have told Robert to bring his force to encircle Stannis and besiege the besiegers, which is a little bit kind of like what Stannis learns and does with the free folk, right, in the forest. Ah, interesting. Yes.

Renly chose to skip that, right, in order to come to grips with his brother quickly, outdistan distancing his food and supply lines with mules and oxen he much he must battle soon or starve i love to look at that like renly was willing to sacrifice food he's like i can live without food i did it once this is also interesting that's a good point i didn't think about it right that he is like i don't need food and supply or he's making just a killer mistake you know because

you do and the fact that he must battle soon or starve comes up is exactly where stannis lands himself in the end of a dance with dragons, right? It's interesting how fast Renly makes all these decisions to break his army apart quickly for Bitterbridge. It's the exact moment Renly and Stannis kind of both lost, all over their hatred of each other and Robert, and of course, over Courtney Penrose. You can tell Stannis really shook runley uh not right away when he's chatting with cap but in this aftermath and i imagine this goes back to childhood like we talked about earlier i can't imagine the way and especially during this meeting the way stannis speaks to runley and rages at him right i i can imagine that probably happened in his childhood too and i can't imagine it was fun

for runley and not fun for him to hear again it is interesting that he thinks so highly of himself compared to robert and stannis right but also that he understands robert's not a great king and stannis probably won't be a great king and but also at that same point runley doesn't understand being a king and the contracts he has to honor for not only southern lords, but the people that live in their lands. There's more of them

in all the realms than there are lords. Absolutely. And that's why his campaign feels so empty. As you said, he doesn't understand any of those contracts or what it really means or what ruling means. It's not just having...

It's not just being likable. It's ruling. Making the hard choices. Yeah. And he's kind of making no choices, right? You know, by not fighting, he's not forced to make any choices right you know by not fighting he's not forced to make any choices right now he's biding his time and you know speaking of those black fires again we do see a gun making making moves but i wonder if we're going to see

him making similar moves as renly or something, right? You know, as a person who's now holding Storm's End. And I wonder if we're going to see some of that same hot-headed rashness in terms of rushing and the way that Renly does in splitting his camp. And also maybe he gives a similar speech. And we do see Averi's give it on his behalf of this, like, why not me? I'm qualified in theory, theory rationale and not really knowing what ruling truly does entail and being the one who will steal the forces that were that might have back danny instead ah can't wait for that parlay bring it to bitter bridge yeah and in the book a bunch of brunches a bunch of brunches well

cat sends hal mullen to tend to the horses and accompanies renly back to the pavilion where he speaks to his men explaining that status wants blood and he wants to give him blood not his blood his own blood and status won't be appeased of course the men all have differing opinions mathis rowan doesn't think they should attack he thinks courtney penrose is seasoned and will give stannis a hell of a time and waste his time basically and they can go take king's landing which is honestly again the right choice that's the only choice you would want but randall thinks Stannis is a threat. Left unblooded, he'll gain power while they waste theirs against the Lannisters.

Yeah, I agree. I mean, I think they should have gone to Mathis Rowan's idea. And, you know, you'd think that as an experienced veteran that is so highly regarded by other lords, war hero Randall Tarly would be smarter and, like, better than this. But he puts Ravado, like, in front each time. And I think we discussed this before during the Davos chapters, but Stannis also did miss his chance to take King's Landing. So does

Renly. But also Renly dies, so he's gonna miss his chance anyway. Anyways, Randall Tarly's suggestion and what Renly's interested in is putting pride but over results the flash because I'm also just like Renly if you're so sure that no one wants to support Stannis because he's a duty head like then what does it matter if he's left unblooded

and you just go take King's Landing he's interested in glory we'll discuss that in a bit and that's something that's part of why like the lannisters are able to win like this this like act like some of these first acts of uh earlier acts of a song of ice and fire i don't think what tywin did was right but it's effective for them in this first portion obviously it doesn't pay off later on as we've discussed but tywin doesn't give a shit about pride in that way, ironically, because lines and pride. He gives a shit about pride in some other ways, but he doesn't care about honor or glory.

And that's why he's able to take out his enemy in the Starks through the Red Wedding. Whereas Rob is very concerned with honor, not so much glory, but honor. And that is part of what gives him the opening to be vulnerable during the Red Wedding by choosing to take Jane Westerling as a bride instead of honoring his vow to the frays. And or even as opposed to when Catlin's like, why couldn't he have like fallen into marjorie tyrell's arms that would have been great yeah but i mean imagine the resources they're all lacking in these yeah i know right she's just like fuck so much food well the others agree and Renly then looks pleased and decides, yes, good, we shall fight. Catelyn speaks up, she hopes to go back to Riverrun, but they're like, no, not gonna happen. And she stiffens, she's like, I hoped to make a peace, and I will not help you make war.

Renly says they'll survive without her 25 good men, and he'd like her to watch the battle not take part in it and she's like this isn't a fucking basketball game okay i've already watched the whispering wood i don't need more death and war and shit in my life she was an envoy she wishes to leave and runley's like well you'll leave a wiser envoy and take my message of what befalls rebels to your son rob isn't he a rebel i know right and that's what what's gonna be trying to tell them the whole chapter what's about to befall a rebel trying to tell them it's also funny because he's like then you'll leave a wiser envoy and i'm pretty sure caitlin sark is like i'm definitely stupider for having watched that conversation she's gonna be wiser when she watches him die shit yeah that's true

she will be that's gonna be intense um it's fucked up that runley makes her stay and i understand like yeah for two seconds you're she's like so i'm a hostage and that's fucked up but also i'm gonna be real i'm gonna be i'm going to be pragmatic it's because because George needed a POV here. It is. Do it for the plot. Far too early for Brienne to enter, right? I think this is a perfect point. Someone had to. And, for what

it's worth, it's fast moving from here, right? It's all action, and it does heighten. You know, I think that's what makes the next chapter so good, because it's very heightened at the end renly delegates mathis will lead the center of the main battle bryce shall take the left lord eastermont the reserve renly will take the right sir guyard and john fosway argue over who should lead the vanguard saying it should be one of the king's guard but randall tarley's like i was leading vanguards when you all were shitting yourselves. So they all argue and Renly silences them and says, the greatest glory

by rights belongs to the greatest knight here, Sir Loras, barely out of puberty. Loras kneels and asks him to grant a knight to ride beside him with his banner as well. Renly assigns Brienne, who's like, no, I don't want to leave your side, I'm your sworn shield. He reminds her, you're one of seven, and four of your fellows will be in the fight. It's interesting that, you know, like the emphasis here is all about glory and not strategy, not winning.

It really shows that they think this is a fucking game. And yeah, that lack of strategy it really comes through when put into the context of Catelyn thinking earlier like that was pretty dumb that Renly split his forces huh he really like put himself into a corner so yeah and it's so interesting they fought so hard

the men did to be like you you gotta kill Stannis no you gotta go to King's Landing because it's like Stannis has 5,000 gotta go to King's Landing because it's like... Stannis has 5,000 men. Renly has 100,000. Stannis has 5% of Renly's army. Stannis has 10% of Renly's split

army. He's not gonna be able to kill you guys without witchcraft at this point, you know? That feels very obvious. The deus ex machina here is is purposeful because there was no way that renly could have died he had everything you needed to take the throne from cersei and joffrey honestly and interestingly when you put it like that if he had done it if

he had just left and taken king he would have won he and he would have been out of range right clearly like it sounds like well actually i don't know what the range is of shadow babies but i know that they had to they had to go under storm's end but that's because it was magic so i don't know i don't know i mean the seed is strong you know how strong is stanis's seed though strong enough to kill runley the Usurper, Eliana, and- That's true. Brienne kneels, begging Renly to let her arm him for battle. Catelyn heard someone snigger behind her. She loves him, poor thing, she thought sadly. She'd play his squire just to touch him, and never care how great a fool they think her.

Poor Brienne. No one's ever taught her yet. Never risk it all like that for a man brianne don't be like my best friend on july 4th this year whom i hope never listens to this episode anyways renly grants brianne the permission to address him dismissing everyone else and he's like i have to get my beauty sleep catalyn steps forward though requesting something too she's like can i go pray at the sept in the last village we passed I have to get my beauty sleep. Catelyn steps forward, though, requesting something, too. She's like, can I go pray at the Sept in the last village we passed? Renly asks Ser Robar to accompany her, as well as bring her back by dawn. She advises him he should do some praying, too, for wisdom.

Renly laughs, and he's like, fine. Ser Loras, please stay and help me pray. Look again, I'm just saying. Help me pray? You know, Tyrion actually makes a point in Tyrion 3 that comes up about this. Remind me to tell the High Septon. If I could pray with my cock, I'd be much more religious. Yes, yes.

It's all so obvious, you know. It's interesting. obvious, you know? It's like, interesting. Praying. Alright. On your knees. Anyway. So, switching gears for a second. He is more of a background character in this chapter, but I will save all the characters here.

Loras is the one who will end up sharing the most in common with catelyn and in terms of like they both end up losing their lovers and for loris who knows maybe even his family because i really really think that loris's fate is going to be quite different from the show like real different and the bits that we see of Loras mourning, right, we see it a little bit, he's got those great lines, but he's obviously holding a lot of it in, just as Catelyn does, partially because of her duty. Loras ends up shouldered with duty too, of course, when he becomes a Kingsguard, but like, you know, C catlin can't afford to be explicit in her mourning right because then she's going to seem even weaker and be judged for that as a woman and loris obviously cannot because of the social norms around being a

gay man in westeros so yeah absolutely and his grief and his pain in the next chapter, it's awful. It's so sad. You do feel for him, especially because he's so young. And we've all been young and lost a love, right? I mean, we've all been young. Not that way. But yeah, it's different, you know, in that way, because then you aren't forced to get over it in the same way. It's like what could have been in a very different way. Yeah.

And also because... Maybe not shadow baby, but I've definitely had a really close friend pass away in some horrible circumstances that were, like, freak. And it's just, like, as a young person who doesn't know their life, too, you know? It's just like, as a young person who doesn't know their life, too, you know? And a young person who's like, sworn to a life of celibacy? Not just here, but then does it again? Because what else is he gonna fucking do? You know?

I mean, that trauma. How do you move on from that? And then after killing someone because of it, it's just a lot. And then, as we're about to get into, Robar. Absolutely. Poor, poor Robar. He was just trying to help. Oh he was yeah but absolutely i mean as you said we're gonna see that grief and he carries it on we see him still carrying it in jamie's chapters when we discussed it and yeah he thinks that it was brian's fault yeah and he probably shoulders some of that blame he's like what if it were me

in there instead what did have happened and he probably shouldered some of that blame. He's like, what if it were me in there instead? What did have happened? And it probably still would have happened, because it was witchcraft, but... Not Brienne. Yes. They plan to armor by first light. Renly promises to give Stannis a dawn he shall not soon forget, which I've heard that before.

Catelyn leaves with Robar, one of Bronn's young sons. Handsome, kind of rugged, attorney warrior. I'm like, wait a second, is this real milf hours going on? Anyway. Yeah, I am wondering that. I'm just like, all right, Catlin. Okay, okay. Rugged. I'm like, handsome, rugged, you know who she is. She's like, first men. First men. She's into that. Well, second man here, second first man, Robar and Cat talk about their long journeys and he explains he's a second son. His father and his father's heir, Eliza, fealty, but second sons must find glory where he can.

And tourneys grow tighter some. Yes. And, you know, there's some great callback to the prologue. We'll come back to this in a bit, but to the prologue of A Game of Thrones. Yeah, that's true we'll come back to that someday too to be honest someday someday i want to point out we talked a little bit about one of my favorite povs earlier brandon bran stark and speaking of second sons and of course stannis we've talked a lot about as a second son today but speaking of second sons making their own place this reminds me of bran maybe this is you know end game of thrones here but king bran forging his own place in the south and the idea of sansa taking the north you know the idea of uh

owing different fealties and loyalties and finding glory where you can it feels really fitting especially as we're reminded in this chapter of Ned who was not expected to be lord of Winterfell as a second son and was not expected to marry Catelyn but the shoe, you know, died and then fit. He ended up doing so. Especially because after this, Catalin describes Robar as young, no older than one in twenty, which, that's when she and Ned got married.

That's a great point about Ned, and tying it back together with him as well. And, I mean, that's the case, right, with Stannis, too. That's a great way of tying it all together and yeah i mean robar nothing nothing doesn't pay enough for him but yeah no kingship for him only death yep yep rip rip bar, that doesn't work. Anyway. So, yeah, you were talking about his age and how young Kat and Ned were when they had to be married. And, you know, she thinks, like, he could not be older than one in twenty, Katlin thought, of an age with his king.

But her king, her Rob, had more wisdom at fifteen than this youth had ever learned. Or so she prayed. In Catelyn's small corner of the camp, Shad was slicing carrots into a kettle. Hal Mullen was dicing with three of his Winterfell men, and Lucas Blackwood sat sharpening his dagger. Lady Stark, Lucas said when he saw her, Mullen says it is to be battle at dawn Howl has the truth of it, she answered And a loose tongue as well, it would seem Do we fight or flee? We pray, Lucas We pray

I hope you're somewhere praying You know, for all those prayers prayers it seems a different god answers yeah for whom the bell tolls and the god answers yeah right be careful what you pray for gotta be real specific in those asks right

you know coming back to those prologues and gods right we're talking about old gods so old god stuff going on there in the game back to those prologues and, and gods, right? Whether we're talking about old gods, so old gods stuff going on there in the Game of Thrones prologue, but Robar being contrasted with Rob, which I mean, like, you know, look at the names, right? It's right there. It's a, I think really similar to how people contrast Waymar with Droyne. So it's interesting, Waymar with Jon.

So it's interesting to see each of these Royce, Royce boys, way bar with john so it's interesting to see each of these royce royce boys royce boys being contrasted with uh different starkish boys and cat praying right before this supposed battle that's going to happen between stannis and runley um it reminds me also of sansa praying when stannis was the king who was threatening uh king's, you know, Cat's an unwilling guest here right now. Just as Sansa was. I mean, she was a hostage. Sansa was a hostage. Cat was just like, I want to go now.

And he's like, no, no, no, come watch. And she's like, no, I want to go. And he's like, no, no, no, no, no, no. There's more parties. She's like, I want to party. But anyways, so similarities. I mean, I would argue she is a hostage. Like, it's hostage.

Yeah, kind of. You can't promise you can keep someone safe. Like, talk about being shitty to people, keeping someone in a battle. Like, you can't argue you're keeping someone safe when they have a safe escape out of the battle under a peace banner. And obviously the battle doesn't ensue, so it's fine-ish. But it is kind of shitty. It is kind of a shitty, pompous move in the face of, you know, the same as your whole entire campaign. You could have saved people from dying, dude.

But I digress. Is it a violation of guest rights? Yeah, I mean, there was salt in all that fucking food she ate the other day there was lots of food you're gonna say in this exchange she ate so much food okay she ate so much food and he's gonna sit here and keep her hostage that's shitty but the sansa thing's a perfect point because Sansa is the next chapter. It's sandwiched so well for that. So really great point, Eliana.

You know, the next chapter is going to be really exciting. So let's leave some things for that. Yeah, absolutely. Next chapter is going to be a gas, if you will. We're going to really have a blast. It's going to be a blast. It's going to be a blast. But if you want to read other things from us, like on social media, where we post polls now, we post many polls on social media. You can follow us over at Girls Gone Canon, at Girls Gone Canon, C-A-N-O-N, on Twitter.

Or if you want to send us an email or a little message, you can send us an email at girlsgonecanon at gmail.com. Now, I would like to flag that the poll currently says, by a large amount, less than the ratio between Renly's camp and Stannis' camp, but like a smaller ratio, like difference, but by like a

4 to 1 or something, or 3 to 1 difference, people say that chloe drops more f-bombs than i do i don't know i guess i could see it brother and if you i could see it um and if you want to hear those f-bombs be sure to subscribe to us on the many different platforms that we're on such as audible podbean amazon podcast apple podcast google play stitcher spotify uh oh a cast um there's a lot of other ones and i not that was a good try on my part i'm gonna give myself a pat on the back just like riley does see you fucked up because you started off you started off of your order

you really messed yourself up and that's where i'm gonna get you with my shadow baby you know that's where my shadow baby comes in uh well if you don't want to listen to us there, you can go over to patreon.com slash girls gone canon, where we have a RSS feed that is so private. It is a little fancy island for you. Island of Patreon for you. $5 and up patrons also get special episodes every month. Every other month, it's about His Dark Materials. Every other month, it is about A Song of Ice and Fire fire and this month will be about a song of ice and fire we also have a blast hosting brunch slash happy hour every month with our friends at discord this month it is going to be on the 18th

from 1 to 3 p.m eastern time yes so be sure to come hang hope to see you there as always I have been one of your hosts Chloe and I have been another one of your hosts Eliana we'll see you next week but you know who won't see us Renly won't see us next week why? cause he's dead what?

how could you just spoil the next chapter like that what the fuck it's a reread goodbye