Girls Gone Canon Cast - ASOIAF Episode 133 - ACOK Catelyn V

Episode Date: July 23, 2021

Catelyn and Brienne make vows. Catelyn receives the bones of the guy she used to bone and makes a few other, darker promises in her heart.  Background sounds:  Tempting Secrets by Kevin MacLeod Link: https://incompetech.filmmusic.io/song/5005-tempting-secrets License: https://filmmusic.io/standard-license - Record scratch: https://www.sfxbuzz.com/summary/9-cartoon-sound-effects/134-record-scratch-sound-effect --- Eliana's twitter: https://twitter.com/arhythmetric Eliana's reddit account: https://www.reddit.com/user/glass_table_girl] Eliana's blog: https://themanyfacedblog.wordpress.com/ Chloe's twitter: https://twitter.com/liesandarbor Chloe's blog: www.liesandarborgold.com Intro by Anton Langhage

Hello, and welcome to Girls Gone Canon, reading A Song of Ice and and fire episode 133 cattle and five in a clash of kings i am one of your hosts chloe and i am another one of your hosts eliana and this is a dense chapter there's a lot man i love this we were just talking off the record, off the air, that last chapter was fun, right? With the whole shadow baby thing. But we're so glad to call off the shadow babysitter and just get into the nit and grit of politics and sadness and sadness and war. I guess we left politics and sadness and war.

Okay, so you know what i'm saying it's a good chapter it's it's a really good chapter yeah i know that you know last time was full of bangers but this is like a emotional yeah moving in several ways it's like sad it feels defeated it feels a little triumph there's hope there's like hope at a better future going on it hits all the emotional palette on the way down it really does and i mean bangers can also be emotional but this is not the only thing getting banged up is my heart you know okay i guess i do this is a person who knows you Eliana who spends so many hours with you I'm gonna just

nod my head and say yes well before we jump into the meat of this episode let's chat about Patreon this month if you're a Patreon member in the stranger tier and above you get special episodes every month sometimes they're a song of

ice and fire related sometimes they're a song of ice and fire related sometimes they're his dark materials related sometimes sometimes they might be a miscellaneous a miscellaneous episode it could be coming to you could be coming to you but this month here at the end of july you will be getting an episode on the free cities in a song of ice and fire if you're in that patreon tier stranger five dollar tier and above we're going to talk about lorath this month which i'm excited about to talk about lorath and the ancient maze keepers so much interesting lore and i'm excited eliana i think you are excited you came to me with a patreon idea for next month that it's a little different it's a little off the wall it's a little different everyone so usually we alternate our

patreon episodes between the nissan advice and fire and a his dark materials episode right and obviously this month is in the song of ice and fire one but you know speaking of bangers we thought we were going to remix it a little next month. Different children's book, also about a strong-spirited girl. We're going to do Ella Enchanted for August's Patreon episode. Eliana Enchanted is what she's saying right now. She's looking straight at the camera and she's going, Eliana Enchanted. No, I am excited. And I think I might even rewatch the Abysmal Movie adaptation.

Really? I've never watched it. Just for kicks. You know, we should watch it before we talk about it. I think we should just because you need to have the full grasp. Maybe we can unearth some crazy details and just really dig into the meat of what they did to our heroine. I'm excited either way. love ella enchanted and i think it's gonna be a fun look at just some of the tropes that surround our little fantasy heroines see what we can dig up from both series right from a song of ice and fire his dark materials and a bunch of other works that relate

to ella enchanted and our thoughts on all. Absolutely. And like, you know, same as how His Dark Materials was part of my growing up, so was Ella Enchanted and I think also part of yours. We both reread this book, what, many times. I read mine until- I got very carsick in the back of the car reading this book at least five times in my life.

My book fell apart. But I kept reading it, goddammit. Yeah. You know? Yeah. I may have been carsick, but at least I read in my life my book but i kept reading it god damn it yeah you know yeah i may have been carsick but at least i read ella enchanted okay it's it's a it's a definitely a favorite and it holds up and i i mean as far as i can tell it holds up so i'm so i'm excited to go into it and just like yeah we decided we're gonna try something different let us know what you think friends yeah and whether you've read it watched the movie or uh whether you know you know nothing about it and you're just looking to listen to us bumble about the story welcome you to the patreon

come on over it's at patreon.com slash girls gone canon bunch of perks for different tiers and you know we just had a blast this weekend with our friend and patron julie and you you guys put together this amazing bingo a swath trivia uh kind of event and we just had fun doing it and all kind of laugh because there were some really hard questions this past weekend i i got stumped on a couple i messed a couple up but it was fun knowing some of the answers and having everybody kind of argue with each other and convince each other no it's actually this and be like no this quote was from this person they all like convince themselves just from the thought train it's really fun to watch i got so much shit wrong oh same i mean i didn't have to compete because

you know i worked with julie but i mean all that was julie julie came up with all those questions and ideas and yeah some of them were very tricksy you were messaging me during it being like wait is that stannis wait no that quote's not stannis it's tywin right wait is it this question mark and i was like wait a second i thought you did this eliana but julie is the mastermind oh yeah she's like an organizational queen about it too it was just really well done a big thank you to her for helping out and being another another one of your hosts at brunch if you're in the thunder tier the ten dollar tier and above you get a couple perks like early access an an annual Girls Gone Canon gift, which, very excited about that.

Sending soon. It was revealed at brunch this weekend. We'll be revealing it to patrons soon, and details about its shipping will be going out very shortly in the next few weeks, handful of weeks here. I am excited about that. That's my next big excitement

because it's pretty on theme well we'll talk about them on here in the future not yet yeah soon soon it is also on theme uh it's been funny to see people say that you know interestingly the thing that it's inspired by that they associate with us and hearing our voices so i'm like oh interesting that you'd say that well it's funny i'd be interested to know once we're able to talk freely about it besides that, be interested to know what other big quotes and moments in the

Asaga Bison Fire series those are the only hints you get right now, everyone what quotes and moments really remind you of us? Because I know we have our top lists for sure. Yeah. That remind me of us. Same.

Moments that remind me of you, Chloe. Aw. This time. Hashara. I'll die thinking about your peach. So, that being said. I've been eating a lot of peaches lately, but. I really love your peaches.

Want to shake your tree. That being said, while next month's Patreon episode is not going to be his dark materials we are still putting out his dark materials content yes make sure you tune in last week of each month for your amber spyglass helping if you are a his dark materials fan if you've read the main trilogy come join us or if you're reading right now and you're getting caught up and you're reading the amber spyglass in preparation for the third season of the great hbo bbc adaptation the best of them all the experience his dark materials if you're watching it and you're catching up with the books come hang out with us i am about to be devastated and sad the rest of my life for

Catalin, devastated and sad the rest of my life for His Dark Materials Series 3 and The Amber Spyglass yeah come let us ruin your life some more but I think people want that from us

is that true listeners? to feel things, to feel feelings. Step on us with your brain and your thoughts. Alright, well, I guess I will. Guess I will. Well, this week

we did not pull any emails and tweets of note, but people have said some cool stuff to us and we appreciate, like for example of course, our friend Lo pulling together another great thread analyzing Brienne and Arya. In the lens of

the stranger, yeah, in the lens of the stranger it was a great thread. We'll definitely throw it in the details below so check it out. But we'll come back to some notes next week from you all we're going to jump in since this is a very, very meaty chapter and start with our lightning round with Jon IV. The Night's Watch waits for the rest of its power at the fist of the First Men,

and Ghost leads Jon to a cache of dragonglass. Bran V. Jojen's prophecy begins to come true, and Bran's warnings are ignored. A villainous man named Reek is found by the Northmen. An alternate part of that lightning round would be Ashara Dayne's son's prophecy. Tyrion VIII, in the aftermath of Renly's murder, Tyrion and the small council decide to court Roses. Theon III. Threon. Theon admits to Dagmor his plans to prove himself to his father.

Chloe's so upset. Why are you so inappropriate at all times? I can't take you anywhere, Threon. Aria 8. No, I'm Threon. Thank you very much. Aria 8. Aria gives Jaqen Whis' name, but as she watches Tywin and his host leave, she feels regret at her kills.

Regrets. And that brings us to Cat 5. Catelyn returns, and it feels like she's missed three months of her life. The Freys creep and grow slowly amongst the Stark ranks, and Catelyn takes some new protection of her own. She receives her Lord's Bones after seeing what's becoming of her fathers. Sad. Catelyn and her team are spotted two days from Riverrun by a Frey scout.

She asks if they can be taken to the Blackfish, but he's gone west with the king. Martin Rivers, a bastard-born son of Walder Frey, commands the Outriders in Brynden's stead. She's unsurprised that rob decides to go west he'd been contemplating it when he sent her away yeah so it's interesting that as cat contemplates this decision she thinks of it as rob striking at the and the line is heart of lannister power but likeb doesn't really do that. Like, he doesn't take Casterly Rock, nor does he take King's Landing, right?

I mean, he does hold Jaime Lannister, and that's quite significant. But he mostly, like, the biggest damage is, I guess, towards, like, the houses in Lannisport, right? And later this chapter, it's interesting because Cat, turns out, does long to strike at the heart of Lannister power, right? And later this chapter, it's interesting because Cat turns out

does long to strike at the heart of Lannister power, as we're going to find as this chapter develops. It's a desire that she has been denying herself throughout the past few chapters, but that really starts to blossom in this one. And it's a desire that obviously she very much gives in to as Lady Stoneheart. But anyway, we learn later this chapter that Robb couldn't take Casterly Rock. The reason why is because he doesn't have any siege engines, which is pretty interesting because it tells us, of course, about Casterly Rock's defenses. So we're getting some of that world building here. And it's also just like an interesting tidbit to consider when you think about it alongside what's happening at Storm's End right now, which we learned about

a little in this chapter, and the need to hold on to that symbol of power, right? Your seat. And that's part of why Stannis wants it other than, you know, his sketchy reasons for wanting Edric Storm. And, you know, it's interesting also considering what else is happening in this book when he doesn't take Casterly Rock. Because, like, had Rob had siege engines, had he taken Casterly Rock, obviously everything would be very different in this story. But the Lannister heart of power is well fortified and guarded, I will say for now. Because, you know, things I think are going to happen in the Winds of Winter and in A Dream of Spring. But while that's fortified, like, the heart of northern power is, as we know, becoming quite vulnerable with the things that happen in

Threon, and we know it's impending. I'm just doing this to piss you off now. I was so upset by that that I couldn't even fire you. I was too busy cackling. She was too shocked. I'm still kind of in shock. i do think there's a lot going on in

the west that like everything but casterly right and obviously as we'll talk about once the great johns captured uh that they obviously don't retain a lot of those riches but casterly remains untouched and that does kind of pave the way for a major showdown to possibly eventually happen there for future armies right that need that gold yeah um had they gotten at that gotten that gold out of there dude it'll be game over money money money body yaddy yaddy yaddy uh martin rivers is camped two hours away and and Catelyn commands to be taken to him. The scout asks if they come from Bitterbridge, and she's like, nope, sure didn't, never even heard of it. She's concerned the camp might see her, coming straight from where all the madness just occurred.

She adds she's heard Renly was slain, and asks, does my brother hold command in Riverrun? He is, he is guarding Rob's rear. She thinks gods grant him the strength to do so and the wisdom as well. And your defense squad assemble! We're definitely going to do some Edmure defending, right? Some Cattle and Critiquing, some Edmure defending. It's about to happen. It's coming.

Yep. And your Tully Stan podcast. Oh god. some Edmure defending. It's about to happen. It's coming. Yep. Edmure Tully Stan podcast. Well, Catelyn asks for word of Robb in the West, and the Scout is surprised that they haven't heard. Robb won a great victory at Oxcross, killing Stafford Lannister and scattering his host.

Wendell whoops in response, and Catelyn only nods. There's a line of, Tomorrow's trials concerned her more than yesterday's triumphs there's that wisdom i will give her that that is wisdom it is but it is also anxiety and i relate but the delay in cat getting this information i think really helps show the timing and like how delayed things are because we knew about this victory actually

prior to Kat's last chapter even because it comes up in Sansa's you know she gets like beaten for it and also you know bless Sir Wendell for cheering yeah gotta keep the morale up right a win is a win we'll take a win but also I see Catelyyn you know who's already

just being lapped by information i mean it really is significantly pointed out she was riding for a month almost in each direction pretty much right and she spent almost a few weeks there a few days a few weeks whatever like each way it basically was like May when she left camp at Riverrun. And it's August now that she's coming back. Most timelines kind of compare to. Because I was trying to understand how long exactly it had been. And I'm like. A whole financial quarter.

A whole quarter. Exactly. A lot can happen when. All of Q1. And, you know, now that she's further from the cause this entrance it's so pointed that the frays are everywhere and it's honestly

really parallel to the Sansa chapters with the Tyrells appearing at court and the Reachmen appearing at court and infiltrating their way in bit by bit just like them spreading and growing through the Lannister and Baratheon court these frays are spreading as well very quickly yeah that's a great point and that's gonna come

up again later this chapter uh as you said they arrive finally at martin river's camp it is in the shell of a shattered holdfast with a roofless stable and a hundred fresh graves uh awesome i guess but not at all and he falls to one knee at catelyn's arrival offering her safety and escort back to riverrun for her brother and catelyn is worried at this she's like wait what about hoster and they're like he's okay but it's more that we want to hurry because we're afraid that the lannisters could catch us because you know tywin's marching west from harrenhal with all of his power and catelyn frowns because she's like stanis will be on the march soon enough as well and you know it's spoiler because you already know what happens in those chapters they did not march soon enough and it

fucked them all right it fucked them tywin is kind of this persistent beat in this chapter there's two beats going on and tywin is one of them and he's on the move it's three days maybe four tops until he gets by them and they have eyes all along the road but they say that it's not safe for her to stay for long so she does not rivers breaks down his camp real quick saddles up beside cadeline they're about 50 strong now, flying beneath the Direwolf, Trout, and Twin Tower banners. It almost feels triumphant for a moment, right? Like you're like, oh yay, what a great alliance. But then in my heart, I'm like, no, no.

The men want to hear more about Robb's victory, and Martin Rivers obliges. There's a singer come to Riverrun, calls himself Rymond the Rhymer. He's made a song of the fight. Doubtless you'll hear it sung tonight my lady wolf in the night this rhyming calls it we don't get any lyrics in this song but I'm curious if we're going to hear them

eventually maybe in the winds of winter maybe when we have the rebirth of the north under the rebirth of John right a hype new song being sung about a new young wolf repurposed a banger yeah a top 40 north hit because there's only like four of them um rhymond actually appears in the next couple chapters he sings to us during one of the saddest passages for our mother catalyn whenn, when he sings the Seasons of

Love. Very sad. And later in Cat 2, A Storm of Swords, he is seen again to sing about the stone mill, but we haven't seen him since. Our focus gets changed to Tom of Seven Streams, as far as the singers in Storm go, and Marillion, obviously. I'm curious if he'll show back up or if he's just going to be a rando in the story i kind of do hope he shows back up um i think it'd be interesting i like what you were saying earlier about the calling out the the banners the direwolf trout and twin towers ones and how it seems triumphant and it's interesting that those are the three that are being displayed most prominently obviously the trout tully's uh the lord paramount of this region and now the direwolf is the royal banner for them but the twin towers and how you were comparing the tyrells and the frays

spreading around because the tyrells they spread around because they anticipate being the queen's house and they kind of anticipate being the queen's house. Makes sense. It all makes sense. Too bad for them, I guess. And for all the rest of us. I guess we should all anticipate what's coming for both the Freys and the Tyrells, eh?

Oh shit. Gonna pluck some roses and gonna crumble some buildings. Smell like poo poo poo. Take him down. You Westerosi think you're your sigils. And the trays are like, look at me, I'm a block of cement.

Okay. Yeah. Well, he kind of goes on bragging, right? Back at, back at, as they ride. He kind of goes on bragging, right, back as they ride, bragging about how Stafford's host fell back on Lannisport, broken, without siege engines, though. As Eliana mentioned, they couldn't quite storm Casterly. Rob was paying the Lannisters back for the devastation on the Riverlands, he says, with Karstarks and Glovers raiding along the coast and Lady Mormont herding thousands of cattle back to Riverrun. Meanwhile, the Great John seizes the gold mines at Castamere, Nunsdeep, and Pendrick Hills.

So I'm of two minds here. This feels pretty big that they're just like taking gold and it will pay back a lot of the funds for the Riverlands, right? To rebuild when they have people that can rebuild that aren't busy at war or dying uh it could be a good amount of money sieged and again all taken back when great john's captured i'm sure probably not enough to make up for the burnt riverlands in full let alone the northern campaign and again it does feel kind of pointed that those aren't really houses that are even involved with the Lannisters. So it's like false justice. You're just raiding up and down a coast of people that are just, they live there, bro.

They live there. You know, I mean, I'm sure the Castamere is the reigns of Castamere. The Lannisport Lannisters obviously kind of get shit out a little bit in this story. And I'm sure Castamere has a bad rep, but I think they've behaved well enough in the past few decades. So, I don't know. The image of Mage herding all these animals from the Westerlands is amazing. Yes. This is my favorite thing.

Mage herded all of these animals from the Westerlands and returned them down to the Riverlands, just going like, hyah, the whole time. Hyah, hyah, just riding on her horse. I love it. That's fabulous. That's fascinating. It's got, like, for me, big, like, Fire Elmo gif energy. Yes.

I love, I, like, relate to that gif a lot, and I love that. I love Mage doing that so much. I love Mage. It honestly gives me Breath of the wild oh also kind of vibes yeah yeah riding i was very good at riding my horse yeah yeah that's part of the fun except sometimes you're like horse what are you doing but yeah so great or like when you get a animal to come here and you're like, come here.

And again, come here. And then you're like, y'all are neat. I love, yeah. What a game. You're, oh my god. I'm so excited for Breath of the Wild 2. Anyway, Pearwin Frey asks how they took the tooth,

but he explains that they didn't. They slipped around it in the night, thanks to Greywind. We have a line of, it said the dire wolf showed him the way that grey wind of his the beast sniffed out a goat track that bound down a defile and up along beneath a ridge a crooked and stony way yet wide enough for men riding single file the latest in their watchtowers got not so much a glimpse of them like oh okay so everyone right now at this point in the book is using magic to sneakily get to shit to enter things from rob skin changing graywin to davos rowing you know shadow babies i guess technically

the magic davos wasn't the magic part of rowing but but the shadow baby is a magic part of entering and assassinating no yeah and the magical protections outside Storm's End though I think you nailed that that's interesting and it is so glaring now all the moments where Rob is skin changing in the story

it's real it's there it's not that I wasn't a believer in the past i just don't think i focused on it because they are moments that if you blink and you miss it but this one stands out very much so there's gonna be more yeah there's gonna be more moments as we progress in caitlin's chapters and especially like in her conversations with jane westerling but we'll get there i mean before it felt like it was just them being dramatic, right? If you're just, like, isolating it in Sansa's

chapters, you're like, oh, you're just using this as drama. But now, as you mentioned that, you know, Greywyn took them to a place, I'm just wondering. Wondering if his eyes went all wargy-wargy on it, you know? Just, boop! There they go. He's warging. Yeah. No one

knows. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm no one knows for sure ah the boy wonder well martin rivers lowers his voice telling them the rumor that rob cut out stafford's heart and fed it to the wolf so i don't think rob did this but it is interesting of the more talk of hearts anyway uh besides the heart also stood out like blood sacrifice to me also uh danny eating a heart at one point hearts are hearts are a big part of danny's danny's uh story in this this book with that big blue house of the undying yep and also the fiery heart. Yes, the heart of flame, so to say. Your heart's on fire. Chloe got the fucking sex on fire song stuck in my head.

Through the worst way possible, too. Through Stannis burning Shereen. Yeah, actually, though. Your daughter's on fire. Sheree. Yeah, actually though. Your daughter's on fire. Yep. Well, Catlin sharply ends that talk. Also this one in the book, saying that her son is no such

savage. And the men cease to talk. The rivers thus say, well, Grey Wynne deserved the meal. And there's also another line here. The Grey John's been heard to say that the old gods of north sent those dire wolves to your children and i'm like whatever whatever the gray john just copied that from other john sans great prefix all right john snow said it first it's funny because it is a redux right because she also she recalls the day also and it's similar to some of the language from then

five dire wolves in the woods and then a sixth for john snow no common wolves no indeed she thinks interesting that john is one of those persistent beats in this chapter yes he does come up and the idea of bastardry comes up throughout the rest of the chapter she thinks of him here again later first of all why are you so obsessed with him catelyn is it guilt what are you feeling what are you feeling nothing first of all she feels nothing she's reaching out to feel anything right now but not not being facetious now i am going to be serious here that there is a lot in common with her coming back from bitter bridge here with Dany and Qarth in the next chapter. Dany comes back from trying to visit with the purebred, right?

And there's just so many things that I'm seeing back and forth in here. Dany, when she's feeling kind of desperate in the next chapter, she remembers that she has what the Targaryens in recent history have not had and what they always wanted, which is dragons. So Catelyn here, she thinks about these wolves, and I'm sure it does, as scary as the magic of these crazy uncommon direwolves are, I'm sure it is giving her a little bit of comfort right now because it does set them apart, right? Like they are the first in ages to have these great beasts these dire wolves and she thinks about these wolves in gray wind and uh i i think it helps her just within cling to like maybe these dark crazy magical forces were meant to be here

doing what we're doing maybe my superhero 16 year old with this talking magic dog can win the talking magic dog but I mean actually though cute Clifford my god he is kind of like Clifford right I'm excited for that movie I actually really want to see that I can't wait

we'll stream it in the discord but actually though I think that's a great point. I mean, there's a reason why all this magic stuff's happening and that's really punctuated by oh, interesting, the herald in the sky, that comet. But

they make camp that night and Brienne comes to her asking for leave to go. Catelyn thinks she shouldn't be surprised. Brienne had kept to herself, spending most of the time with her horses, helping Shad cook, cleaning game, proving that she could hunt as well as them. Honestly, Brienne's just perfect, apparently.

She's amazing at everything. Any task that Catelyn asked of her, Brienne performed well and without complaint, and when spoken to, she answered politely. But... ... She never chattered or wept or laughed and she rode with them every day and slept among them

without ever, as it says, truly becoming one of them and turns out it was much the same as when she was with Renly's camp in the melee in his pavilion and at the feast being so far apart and then Catelyn thinks there are walls around this one higher than Winterfell's tears for Brienne my heart breaks when I read that Catlin thinks there are walls around this one higher than Winterfell's. Tears for Brienne. My heart breaks when I read that.

It really does. It's so distressing. It's so distressing. I'm so distressed. I'm heartbroken right now. I've decided here on out that I've adopted Brienne and I will be taking care of everything for her. Anything she needs, I will do it for her. We will take care of her. She is our child now.

She is our child now i is our child you can see why catalan wants to keep brienne around her uh if brienne and her share that kind of similar loneliness of being you know growing up in this institution that doesn't value them for who they actually are and values them as a currency she never chattered nor wet nor laughed she rode with them without ever truly becoming one of them is that not how catalan feels in the north right a stranger after all these years right in her own sept and area brienne conforming to duty and having to still somewhat even if she is a knight she's still conforming to some of these systems that are kind of propagating this behavior that isn't good and here today in in this chapter she sees a different

way too brienne sees different uh the riverlands people and the northerners they don't necessarily operate like the men at bitterbridge were operating uh and i don't know it's interesting that she has this quiet path of vengeance to start when she actually does go on to defend people and help others trying to fulfill her oath and her vow is you know like protecting and defending the weak and it's just so interesting that she never chattered wept and laughed becomes more and more true for catalan in opposite right catalan is the one who ends up choosing this path of vengeance where brienne takes it and kind of goes the opposite way and catalan becomes a tired a silent woman so to speak after this interesting that is a great way that their paths intersect and their character development intersects.

Especially because I feel like we see Brienne start opening up more, right, in this chapter, whereas, as you point out, Catelyn closes more. Yeah, she closes down more after this, and she quits trusting more and more. And Brienne does quit trusting, though, too, to be fair. She quits trusting more and more. And Brienne does quit trusting, though, too, to be fair. But at the same time, just when she thinks that she's quit it all and quit that feeling, she goes out for those children, you know? So, I don't know.

Brienne, I think, is made of just a little different zest of life at that point. Catelyn has been in it a little longer, right? She's just been tossed around by the system a little longer and it's interesting because catelyn's not the only red-headed highborn lady i think of when i think about this passage here it actually makes me think of someone that you and i talked about recently with our friend sergio buckley over from the isle Faces podcast when we talked about the sworn sword. Someday we'll talk about these parallels way more in full whenever we cover Brienne in the way way future. But we did talk about this when we covered the sworn sword. It's pretty commonly theorized Brienne shares some sort of sub sort of parental bloodline from Rohan and Dunks line possibly,

maybe even sharing a grandparent from Rohan and Dunk's line possibly. Maybe even sharing a grandparent from Rohan and Dunk's line, Rohan Weber. Or in relation to Dunk. So canonically, her and Jamie are allowed to fuck because of that incest is what I'm saying. That's what gets Jamie going. Just kidding. If they share a grandparent, if they're cousins, that's

what gets Jamie going. Doesn't anyone think about that? Just me. Some like arrested development shit. It is. that's what gets Jamie going doesn't anyone think about that just me some like arrested development shit it is uh I don't know even besides that they're freckled heiresses with like dying and failed romances at their claim right and even we're before Jamie right now BJ so to say so affectionately we're BJ but right now before Jamie don't start with me what if I fired Chloe don't start with me Threon

okay what is this too fast too furious anyways we're BJ before Jamie with Brion and technically Radley is Egg's great grandsongrandson, right? So what I'm saying is Brienne's into that little silver line happening in their golden line. She's got a little... Anyways, something in the actual lines, though, here.

The passage going on, especially with these walls up around Brienne, reminds me of Rowan Weber in Cold Moat. Sir Duncan, Lady Rowan said, I was 10 years old when the black dragon rose. I begged my father not to put himself at risk or at least to leave my husband who would protect me if both my men were gone. So he took me up onto the ramparts and pointed out Cold Moat's strong points. Keep them strong, he said, and they will keep you safe. If you see to your defenses, no man may do you harm. The first thing he pointed at was the moat. Later, Rowan says, I no longer trust in men, no matter how ample they may seem. I trust in stone and steel and water. I trust in moats, sir, and mine will not go dry.

It feels so representative of Brienne's beliefs at this point, and also of Catelyn's, right? And her father who took her up on the battlements at Riverrun to show her the way of the world worked. The Mufasa and Simba scene, right? Everything the light touches.

Feels really indicative of their characters. Yeah, as opposed to Renly's Mufasa and Simba scene, right? Everything the light touches. Feels really indicative of their characters. Yeah, as opposed to Renly's Mufasa scene. Mufasa. But, yeah. I like that, the tying of how systems and everything kind of fails women

and they're like, well, I just don't trust anyone anymore because how can I yeah well Catelyn asks alright Brienne where should we go and Brienne says back to Storm's end and Catelyn's like alone and

Brienne confirms that and then adds to kill Stannis and it's like oh okay she's gonna put it out there and Brienne says she swore a vow three times she swore as we discussed last episode i said what i fucking said cadeline and i meant it she said she did i mean she kind of does come at it with that energy and good for her you know what that's not a lot of other people in westeros can say that yeah we got these parts right here these

couple bits in passage um first thing i want to call out brienne closed her thick calloused fingers around the hilt of her sword the sword that had been his after last week's episode i did go reread a couple brienne chapters and jamie chapters and her sword does get lost to the mummers when they come upon the mummers so that is where redley's sword goes i figured it out we did it we're all good we can move on with our lives uh the second call out i have is this bit of passage that cadeline thinks the girl had kept the rainbow cloak when she discarded the rest of her bloodstained clothing, she knew. Brienne's own things had been left behind during their flight,

and she had been forced to clothe herself in odd bits of Sir Wendell's spare garb, since no one else in their party had garments large enough to fit her. First of all, horrible. I feel so awful for Brienne having to be stuck in Wendell Manderly's clothing, and having to be a person of honor and dressanderly's clothing and having to like be a person of honor and like dress appropriately at this new court where you're just a stranger and you feel like shit and you just want to go home and you have to wear Wendell Manderly's clothing it's very kind that he had clothing that could somewhat fit her but it's just it feels awful I'm sorry

Brienne I mean it does but at the same time for me I'm like damn what a Chad like good for her she's so swole like when I read that I was like oh my god she's amazing like if you think about it like she's so strong and I know that I mean it's literally that video of the person breaking the watermelon with her thighs oh that too I'm just thinking of the little doge meme you know like the chad doge that's brienne i'm the sad little small one on the side and i'm like oh my god i think it's impressive that like wendell's is the only one that fits her i know like that's not what it's saying but i think it's impressive i mean everyone else is different shaped the other call out i have that's like not just about wendell's clothing

is does this not remind you of someone else who was witnessed slash kind of implicated in a murder that fled and kept a certain blood-stained kingsguard cloak in the bottom of her summer chests why she kept the cloak she could not say who could you possibly mean who could it be beauty and the beast that's also brian's story though um no it's true ever just the same it's not a surprise what chloe is talking about here that was it y'all know y'all know leave me alone i'm not gonna change i feel like you know what it has been a couple years so maybe i reiterate. If you wanted me to be a different person, maybe write your books differently, George R.R. Martin. Okay.

So Catelyn says vows should be kept, but Stannis has a great host around him, and his own guards are sworn to keep him safe. safe. So, I thought that Catelyn stressing that vows ought to be kept was very interesting, considering that Catelyn later does not end up keeping her vows as Lady Stoneheart. But hey, I will say, maybe that's a question for Learned Hands sometime.

Are the vows that Catelyn made to Brienne still binding when Catelyn is now Lady Stoneheart, or are they not? It's a thought. Anyways, Catelyn is now Lady Stoneheart, or are they not? It's a thought. Anyways, Catelyn does break hers. All right. Partially because she thinks that Brienne has broken Brienne's vows,

but it also makes me think of something that you were talking about in the previous, in the other episode. Maybe it was the last one, that Brienne might break that vow about killing Stannis. Yeah, I've thought about that a lot more since last week and i think there's like a lesson of mercy in here right and i think it's the lesson of mercy that brienne will learn from stoneheart i'd guess however that lesson shapes up but i just in thinking about how sandor and mercy and aria and and Sansa and Mercy how these themes kind of circulate in their plots

I think it is very prevalent in Brienne's plot especially regarding what she learns from Stoneheart and especially when you think about like in just a little bit Jaime gets spoken about by Brienne as a murderer who killed a rightful king but later

in the story she changes her tune on what a rightful king means to in the story she changes her tune on what a rightful king means to her as well as jamie being a murderer she learns the truth of who aries was and who jamie is and i think that causes her to let go of her vengeance for stannis maybe somehow some way that she will have learned a better way especially with the effect of jamie on her and what she learns from her relationship to him through the story and where it takes them I wonder if she learns a better way because of these experiences

and confrontations well it also you know tying it back to something you just brought up where you were semi-joking but not really you know parallels between Brienne and Sandor who is likely also her relative right through Duncan the Tall.

God, Duncan fucked. Yeah, dude. For real. Dude, he fucked. But in terms of, you know, you were saying she might learn a better way while people are being taught a better way, right? Like, Sandor

very well might be also letting go of his desire for vengeance against his older brother so it'd be interesting to see how maybe both of these descendants these dunk descendants come at it right like in their different ways of how

they learn to be like whoa but what if we didn't vengeance oh my god are they dunk variants is this local on disney plus these are dunk variants are you saying that brienne and uh sandra are gonna fall in love no me gusta you're like i don't want this i regret this why do you always take it there stemly ass motherfucker okay well this is what happened. All right. I've seen a little. Anyways.

We'll talk. We'll talk. Brienne is not afraid of the guards and says she never should have fled. And Catelyn sighs, asking her if that's what troubles her, being a craven. She tells Brienne that nothing was the fault of hers and she served him valiantly. Catelyn says to Brienne, I love this. When you seek to follow him in the earth, you serve no one.

She stretched out a hand to give what comfort a touch could give. Which, very sad and very sweet. The cat is trying to empathize with her and this is just like your monthly reminder to listen to Good by the Manimals from their Game of Thrones concept album called

Seven. It's a very good song. And there's this lyric in the chorus. It's like, mailed fist reaching out to touch someone. Not enough daughter, not enough son. I'm gonna make good on my promises. So good. Literally good. It's literally called Good good it's my daughter well catalyn tries to empathize with brienne but brienne shakes off her hand and she's like no one knows and catalyn sharply corrects her and she's like bitch if anyone knows it is me and she says every morning when i wake i remember net is gone i have no skill with swords but that does not mean I do not dream of riding to King's Landing and wrapping my hands around Cersei Lannister's white

throat and squeezing until her face turns black. Now I have to say, this doesn't really work right for the Valin cat theory because cat is an older sister. I don't think it works as far as the Valin cat prophecy goes. She's definitely an older sister. It's going to it works as far as the Valen cat prophecy goes.

She's definitely an older sister. It's gonna be Sir Pouts after all. Maybe Lady Whiskers. Maybe Boots. People were thrown off by that question in trivia. That was the only one I fucking knew. I love a fucking cat. I motherfucking love a cat.

Well, regarding this cat. out of the bag as the lannisters start you know regaining power right um just a little bit in this chapter not entirely but you know like yeah they like lose one more contestant against them when renly dies so that's like kind of good for them um and as catelyn has more time to really just sit more with her grief, but also learning of, like, oh, so the Lannister incest is the thing, and maybe

that's why my son is injured. Huh? And now that she's in front of Brienne, who is another outcast when it comes to Robb's host because of their gender, Catelyn starts moving away from her pleas for peace. And these internal questions of whether actions will bring that back to her.

And we're going to come back to this a couple of times throughout this chapter, because I think it's really important to this one. Like in front of Brienne, with whom Cat has just like experienced this really traumatic event of horrible witchcraft and like firsthand witness now like these are what the stakes are for my son this is what it means and you know she's gone through this again before right when she like in that when it comes to Brandon right um and after having like lost her husband now and is about to visit her soon-to-be-gone father,

Catelyn really begins to undergo a change, especially in terms of what does she want now? And she stops wondering about those practical outcomes, right? Before she's the one who questioned the, oh, why do these kings always want to give me Lannister heads?

Why is this always the first thing that they want to give me lannister heads right why is this always the first thing that they want to give me and like it's dumb like finally she admits that maybe just maybe she also wants those lannister heads but it's more than just wanting like those heads on a plate right she wants to be the one to administer that vengeance she doesn't want someone else to do it for her because that's just such a visceral image that we get here here when she's talking about wanting herself to wrap her hands around circe's throat and like that change from like circe's throat and face being white to black like that's so visual you can tell she's like actually fantasized about this and like it feels really pointed that as she and brienne are

the ones you know in this chapter a little later they're passing the hanged bodies of lannisters right her fear is initially more towards whether or not jamie has died uh which would mean her daughter's lives right and she has a little like wait you hung envoys like there's a slight hesitation there when she finds out but when she initially sees those hanged lannisters um catelyn observes Brienne's very reserved reaction in comparison to the really obvious celebration of their companions, which, of course, insinuates that maybe Brienne doesn't really approve of what's going on here, but Catelyn's own judgment

of what happened here isn't really given, right? It could be that she's observing Brienne's reaction and we as a reader are supposed to interpret like that and catlin's lack of dialogue to say that catlin feels the same because she isn't really saying anything either but that's again not a given because i think we're starting to see that maybe catlin's coming around to this a little more than she knows yet a little more than we think with those obvious connections between these deaths which are of course about closing in around the neck whether it's cersei's

own or the lannister envoys and of course like the obvious connections with lady stoneheart that's a great point and not only that but obviously her humanity starts to be a little fleeting and some of how she regards like just these social issues going on uh on one hand she believes one thing on the other hand the duality of catalan stark is that uh she's shutting herself off to everything to stop from feeling the pain and earlier you mentioned, you know, that she's been suffering in this institution for so long and, like, that she's, like, had to sacrifice her happiness for so long and things that she wants or things that would make her happier for other men that need swords or, you know, for other people.

And that builds up. That's building. It's like a pressure cooker right now and here it is happening every day all day long yeah it's very frustrating and it's very interesting she's just shutting herself off bit by bit um she she is right and towards more like i mean taiwan-esque measures you know she doesn't ever get to actual Tywin, right? She goes her own path, which is its own thing. It's interesting that Tywin knew well enough, too, that, like, I better end this before they start getting angrier. Yeah.

I might be next. And then he was. Ha ha. But it was his son. Ha ha. Ha ha. Well. be next and then he was haha but it was a son haha well brienne who's somewhat surprised to hear this about cersei from catalin asks why she should seek to hold her back if that's what

catalin dreams catalin explains she was taught good men fight evil and renly's death was evil but she also was taught that gods make kings not not the swords of men. Brienne disagrees. The rightful kings were killed in Robert's rebellion, and the gods were absent. They don't care about men like kings don't care for peasants. Ah, damn. After you see your first king love die, you get real cynical real fast, you know?

For someone who was like, just a couple chapters ago, was like, what's's up summer is our glory brienne is really struggling it's hard everything that she knows and believed in has been turned on its head or killed by a shadow baby and i think this is a great place for her arc in time with jamie right because here this is that moment I mentioned earlier, she's operating under the idea, Jamie murdered the king. The rightful king. So in the future here, in this clash arc

of the next few chapters. It is really interesting. And I mean, I bet she had a lot of time to think during that one month journey of like, what does it all mean? Imagine our poor baby. Just be like, what does it all mean imagine our poor baby just be like what does it all mean but i can't believe you let her go on that trip i told you we shouldn't let her go on that trip our daughter brianne shouldn't we shouldn't so we need to be better parents what is this what have i done um but it is a really

interesting discussion here, actually. Like, everything that transpires between Catelyn and Brienne here, to be honest, but like, right here, these like questions that they ask each other about kingship says a lot about both of their political perspectives. And it is very much like a political discussion in which Brienne is challenging Cat's belief, specifically in the divine right of kings. And though it goes unsaid in this discussion, the subtext is there of the contradictory nature then of Kat's current political beliefs, right? Because Kat's religious nature has established for her

for a long time since girlhood, even going to the north, right, that the gods are real, the phases of seven, it's real, and with them comes a moral code of conduct that is external from people, right? It's about good and evil, and that good people must follow these codes to eradicate evil, and it is a fixed moral code. It's, again, determined externally of human circumstances by the gods, and that within this therefore the assassination of Renly is clearly evil which it probably was um and because of Kat's faith in the seven she believes in the divine right of kings that the gods have predetermined and given their as to whoever is next in the monarchy's line which here would be i guess stanis baratheon if the baratheon bastards are in fact not baratheons which they are not and catelyn is

now about to like before she gets interrupted for a second she's about to run up against a moral quandary one that interestingly i say resurfaces in her final class chapter, in her discussion with Jaime Lannister, as you were discussing, where she will have to wrestle with if the king has the divine right to rule from the gods who dictate what is good and what is evil, then is Stannis's act of Renly not immoral? Is it not evil then? Perhaps is it even good if he is the conduit, if he is chosen by the will of the gods and it flows evil then? Perhaps is it even good if he is the conduit, right? If he is chosen by the will of the gods and it flows through him? So there's something of a paradox that she's going to have to wrestle with at some point, but she won't because she dies. But before we get to that question, before Kat has to really cross that bridge and think about this theological question,

Brienne interrupts with what is interestingly actually probably baristan selmy's own thought process in terms of like so who's the rightful king and who should i go to now um where should i go get a job now uh but brienne doesn't come to the same conclusions and doesn't make the same decisions as baristan selmy because as we find out despite how much like brienne invests in like all of these other codes she doesn't make the same decisions as Barristan Selmy. Because as we find out, despite how much Brienne invests in all of these other codes, she doesn't seem to give a shit about the divine right of kings.

That's not important to her, which is really fascinating because she puts stock in vows and legends and knighthood interwoven with the faith of the seven. But perhaps because Brienne is, as Lois pointed out in their essay, a gender outlaw, an outcast, there is no caste for Brienne is, as Lois pointed out in their essay, a gender outlaw, an outcast, there is no caste for Brienne, right? Brienne takes a much more existential view of Westerosi

politics, which makes sense, again, considering her inability to conform to Westeros' gender rules. I mean, Brienne's basically performing knighthood without being a knight like who gives a fuck about the rules right and she points out that the rightful kings are not the baratheons and she's like in fact actually runley told me that robert isn't the rightful king so she knows that runley was like it's probably all bullshit and that puts in a point of comparison between her and barrison once more which again seems to follow this reasoning and flees across the sea and maybe this could be considered foreshadowing or like a clue for the arson reveal um and Barristan once more, which, again, seems to follow this reasoning and flees across the sea. And maybe this could be considered foreshadowing or like a clue for the arson reveal.

But also, as Brienne points out, Jaime killed the last, in quotes, rightful king. And we learn from Jaime in that last chapter of Catelyn's this book, that Aerys might have been like the rightful king, but he was not righteous and so Brienne asks also well when all this happened where were the fucking gods all right where were they and I think there's something to be said of us knowing that Ares was horrific and also returned to Catelyn's like earlier ponderings of the Targaryens being beholden to neither the gods or men right especially in their practice of incest it's like that clash between the religious powers of Westeros and the royals, and you can read more about it in Fire and Blood, so like, good, just do that. But Brienne clearly, again, does not give a shit, and she says it pretty much explicitly right here, right? And it's no wonder she ends up here

at the northern camp, where these houses, like her her they've just determined who they're going to choose as their own king right she believes to some extent maybe not swords don't determine who a king is but we're who you want men or yourself you get to decide what you believe and who you want to follow which again is another reminder of aries's riddle which i'm going to like bring up every cat chapter or every clash episode i don't know but we never actually have to see cat really reconcile that political argument because there is a question then does she believe that rob now has the divine right to rule does she not believe then in the legitimacy of her son's claim in kingship if this is her stance because she doesn't bring rob up in the what she's saying here when she's talking to brian um earlier in that earlier question and so cat has to probably

like be reconciling these religious contradictions like her whole life and isn't voicing this really huge one with a son who does not follow the faith of the seven, who will rule a people of whom a large population, probably the majority of them, follow the old gods. And so, and Cat had to reconcile this within herself when she had to believe like, okay, I guess my friend Robert now has the divine right, which Brienne points out like,

did he though? Did he though? And that even Brienne doesn't believe Renly had the divine right. She just believed in renly and that's that's powerful right and i think kat and brienne are the same here though kat doesn't know it yet because kat has also chosen her own king and gone against her faith even if perhaps her son was chosen by the old gods maybe in a roundabout way as she thinks like a few pages

ago she's like it is interesting right that those direwolves maybe were chosen by the old gods interesting but she was there and it's clear that on this plane without the martial force of something like dragons or like shadow babies there's something to be said of the will and political power of like the ruled to determine their own leader and she agrees with brienne in a moment that you know maybe the social contract between a king and vassals does matter not just divine will yeah it's so interesting again that duality of cat that she can't quite say out loud that it it's just total and blatant like hypocrisy that she's been forced to live within and like literally her son being king goes against everything she was raised and told to believe and told to do. That is something she's going to battle and never going to come to terms with, like you said. And I do respect that Catelyn argues a good king would care about all of this next.

And Brienne's like, well, Renly would have been that king. And Cat's like, well, he's gone, sister. And Stannis, Joffrey, and my son remain. She finally brings Robin to the equation. And of those, out of three there, yeah, he is the better person. Absolutely. I can agree there. Not really big winners, you know, going on.

There's not a lot, as you said. Well, there's actually technically Balon, but they don't know that yet. Not helping the cause, Aliana. You're not helping the cause. You're just splitting up the ticket even further, okay? You're just trying to make distractions. This is an astroturfing

grassroots campaign to distract from the real kings. Brienne asks, horrified, if Catelyn would make a peace with Stannis and bend the knee to him. And she says, honestly, I don't know anymore, Brienne asks horrified if Catelyn would make a peace with Stannis and bend the knee to him and she says honestly I don't know anymore Brienne I'm not a queen I'm just a mother who wants to keep my children safe Brienne says I'm not made to be a mother and I need to fight Catelyn tells her to fight but fight for the living not the dead renly's enemies are robs as well she says

what a crucial moment between these two women in conversation for brienne moving forward something she keeps in her mind something that really reverses what she thought she wanted when she's on the road protecting and defending the innocent and weak becomes something that she embodies better than most other povs and something actually that gets taken advantage via through her very often throughout the story i can see where this idea fighting for the living not for the dead will become so imperative in her fight against the others and the fight for the dawn later let alone in her love life the big story more important story i mean jamie not fighting for that idea that living

love you know and choosing a dead toxic love yeah it actually kind of is though um soap operas are a little a little bit of George R.R. Martin's sort but I mean what you said is absolutely it it's interesting right that Catelyn's plea here you know you're talking about the battle for the dawn it's kind of reminiscent of Jon Snow's own pleas to

pretty much everyone yeah pretty much anyone that'll listen to him everyone as he reminds them remember how you hate all the people i'm making you work with also fight for the living also fight all the zombies also be happy about it at the same time do it with a smile but every battle in your head wait no wrong person at all times wait i do not know your son, my lady. I could serve you, if you would have me. Why me?

The question seemed to trouble Brienne. You helped me. In the pavilion. When they thought that I had... That I had... You were innocent. Even so, you did not have to do that. You could have let them kill me.

I was nothing to you. Perhaps I did not want to be the only one who knew the dark truth of what had happened there, Catelyn thought. Brienne, I have taken many well-born ladies into my service over the years, but never one like you. I am no battle commander. No, but you have courage. Not battle courage, perhaps, but... I don't know, a kind of woman's courage. And I think when the time comes, you will not try and hold me back. Promise me that. That you will not hold me back from Stannis. Catelyn could still hear Stannis saying, Rob's turn too would come in time. It was like a cold breath on the back of her neck.

When the time comes, I will not hold you back. The tall girl knelt awkwardly unshaved renly's long sword and laid it at her feet then i am yours my lady your liegeman or whatever you would have me be i will shield your back and keep your counsel and give my life for yours if need be i swear it by the old gods and the new. And I vow that you shall always have a place by my hearth, and meet and meet at my table, and pledge to ask no service of you that might bring you into dishonor. I swear it by the old gods and the new. Arise. As she clasped the other woman's hands between her own, Catelyn could not help but smile. How many times did I watch Ned accept a man's oath of service? She wondered what he would think if he could see her now.

My parents. Everything about this scene is so emotional. Oh, my parents. And my baby. Oh, I have my daughter. It's just so much. It is so beautiful. Wow. So much popping out at me this time.

First thing that pops out. No service of you that might bring you into dishonor. Oh, like bringing the Kingslayer and getting him out of here? Or telling you to choose between that. Yeah or telling you to choose between that choosing her to choose between that

or killing the little boy yeah you know what Catelyn listen you broke that shit right at the start so I don't think the whole idea of who broke the vow when obviously it doesn't matter because she's a fucking zombie now

but I don't know like i don't think it fucking matters when you have a zombie robot mom killing machine on the loose but i do think a very charismatic zombie robot mom now that i mentioned that god how does she get all those guys to do shit for her even now now. Even while her skin looks curdled. She might still be hot? You know, girls in the North are that scarce. There aren't that many women in the North anymore, is what they're trying to say.

No, I'm just kidding. This is the Riverlands now, you know? Yeah, that's true. Those bitches are dead. Well, however they get out of their Stoneheart meetup, that does feel significant. She already broke that shit. well however they get out of their stoneheart meetup that does feel significant she already broke that shit i do have to say i love her being proud of herself wishing that could see her doing this and proud of how he would inspire that same loyalty and that now she can herself

it's also very sad because it wouldn't have happened if he were alive, you know? So it's like now out of necessity, she has had to do that. I know we've spoken so much in the past, far too much, about Sansa likely having a scene that echoes Catelyn at the end of the Crossroads, but in the Vale. However, I also think this will come back, right? I think Sansa will likely have a scene doing just this taking Brienne swearing her into her service and I think it will be in a similar manner that Sansa is not necessarily in charge of things Jon might be king at this time and Sansa is secondary because that is something very distinct here that Brienne says I don't know your son but I do know you and your courage is inspiring and i would like to pledge my sword to you um i think that's just such it feels like a strong element about it especially in the face of

stark civil war which isn't going to be a thing but you know the tensions the rising tensions and of course very jonquil dark right the serpent in scarlet for Alisandre Targaryen. Yes. Absolutely. This is probably the closest we've even come to seeing a knighting, right? Davos gets tapped for his lordship, but not quite the same. We have seen very briefly the knighting going on in King's Landing after the Blackwater that they were Sans had mentioned.

They have to walk barefoot through the city as part of their devotionals as they take their vows. Otherwise, the closest thing we've seen is in the Hedge Knight with the Green Apple Fossaway, right? Getting knighted right before the battle. And it makes me think George is priming us for fulfilling that knighting aspect in the future through brienne's pov right priming that moment because we haven't seen a ceremony in full of someone becoming a knight and that's probably our most likely absolutely uh i love the green it's gonna be so beautiful oh i'm sorry i'm just like thinking about brienne getting knighted getting teary-eyed i know right, right? That's not me.

In the name of the warrior, I charge you to be brave. In the name of the father, I charge you to be just. In the name of the mother, I say you're my daughter, Brienne of Tarth. I'm the mother now? I'm the mother, look at me, I'm the mother. Oh, God.

Yes, absolutely. I'm the mother oh god yes absolutely I'm looking forward to that one day you know look under your chair but one day tea wow tea wow it's been like what wasn't the anniversary of a dance of dragons shut the fuck up we're not talking about that anyway

so I will say I love seeing Brienne's fuck up Eliana. We're not talking about that out here. Anyway, so I will say I love seeing Brienne's influence on Catelyn here, because I think Brienne does have quite an influence on Catelyn's character. Like, you know, in many ways, yeah, Brienne is young and is portrayed as naive and kind of interpreted as such

often because of in some ways, you know, Brienne does have a lot of optimism, right? That is part of her strengths and maybe part of what keeps her going later on. And she's got that belief in the Chivalric Code that she's not allowed to pledge.

She's also got a lot of courage, right? And she shows I think some great wisdom in this entire exchange as she pushes back on Catelyn's beliefs of like, this is how things should be to her saying, well, this is how things should be to her saying, well, this is how things could be. As they both take part in these like really unorthodox vows, Brienne's like, who gives a shit, you know? And it's interesting to think of Brienne being like, the one who's like, who gives a shit about these rules? All right. And Brienne earlier is the one

who teaches Catlin that what is socially traditional in terms of those politics isn't always what's right, and that we must choose for ourselves what is right and what we want to believe in. And that's what Brienne does here, right? She's sticking consistently to those earlier beliefs. Earlier, she chose a king who unfortunately died in her arms. It was very sad. And we also unfortunately don't get Brienne's POV during these parts because, like I said, during that one month period, it sounds like she did a lot of soul searching and thinking. It's probably like, what if I was wrong about the songs? Yet she still goes on a chivalric quest anyways. But for this

time, Brienne hasn't found a king that she's willing to fight for, and she sticks by that. She's like, I don't know, Rob. I'm not willing to fight for his principles. But she still fights for her beliefs and that's why she chooses catlin who you know interestingly at first doesn't agree to take brienne's service but rather brian just goes ahead and she's like all right i'm gonna pledge anyway just make this promise me don't hold me back and catlin is like all right she accepts and makes a vow of her own to brianne and you know perhaps it's cynical, but is it because Brienne is afraid of,

even though she likes choosing her beliefs, she's afraid to choose even more, like her own path in her life, right? She wants someone to follow. Loras tells Jaime in A Storm of Swords that Renly had said of Brienne, I asked him why he kept her close if he thought her so grotesque.

He said that all his other knights wanted things of him, castles or honors or riches, but all that Brienne wanted was to die for him. So maybe she hasn't progressed that much and is still living within that chivalric romance but has just replaced Renly as someone

to die for with Catelyn because she's all like you know what, I'll give my life for yours if need be I'm like okay word alright that was real fast is this intimacy and friendship maybe that might be friendship is this what a female friendship is supposed

to be I mean I just talked to you weekly about this stupid book but like otherwise am I supposed to die for you? Life is fine. I don't think so. I hope not. I hope not.

I hope not. That's good. Well. But what is interesting here is like, what encourages Catelyn to enter this vow with Brienne is she remembers Stannis' threat to Robb, which again, if you want to make friends and not enemies, don't threaten people's kids. It's a pretty simple rule. And it comes back to what Catelyn was saying earlier. Catelyn doesn't see herself as a queen or else would this exchange be so meaningful? It's like, whatever, people pledge to queens all the fucking time, right?

exchange be so meaningful it's like whatever people pledge to queens all the fucking time right like this vow takes place outside of those established rules of who makes vows to whom in westeros like that's what makes this meaningful and catelyn is a mother who wants to protect her children and she sees brienne as someone who's going to help her do that and yet of this vow catelyn swears before the old gods and the new which is you know part of the whole spiel you know we've all heard it all the time but when she says new we know what gods she's thinking of she's thinking of the faith of the seven but as brienne asked earlier in the deaths of the rightful king and his lawful heir aries and rhaegar respectively like where were the gods then okay where the fuck were they and where were the gods when the holy taboo of guess right was broken and Catelyn and her son died? And which god brought her back? All right, it's a new one, a new god, but it's not the one that she swore in front of. So anyways, Catelyn's views of society, like religion and kingship, all of that's finally just broken in her death. And maybe it's cyclical, right? I wonder if it'll be cyclical with Brienne and her view of the world i'm curious to see how witnessing

the person that she opened up to in this way right she really does open up to catlin quite a bit here how that's going to influence brienne's development at some point obviously we know cat's not going to develop more because she's a zombie something's gonna happen to her all right decompose when you mention that cat does know she's not a queen and it becomes very apparent that she gets treated more as a mother than even a queen mother after a bit of time here and a lot of that comes up with the tensions the car starts before the jamie lannister springing from jail thing that doesn't help her case either but i feel like those tensions are so obvious and in this scene in this moment catelyn feels more like a mother that's doing what little she can in her reach to

protect her children in the way she can or protect herself in the way she can and it almost makes me see a little more sympathy and empathy for alicent hightower for example from the dance of the dragons you know someone who comes into this marriage with no dragon blood no dragons but is expected to just like bear these kings and queens or now she's expected to have kings and queens from her line and know the whole rulebook and the rulebook it turns out is changing every fucking moment for catalan every moment it is it really is she's always and as you see it's almost like she's a few steps behind because she didn't even know what was happening at ox cross yeah now she's really behind yeah and when you think of that it's also just like you know it's

an interesting comparison with cersei as well right who very much is like well i mean she was a queen right she was married to robert but hey recently she was put out of commission for a while too that's true that's true they ford for the red fork the next day guarded by malister archers and pikemen when they see catalan's banners they send men to lead her party across the water they explain they had planted iron spikes and caltrops in the water by edmure's command she realizes that edmure means to fight here and gets queasy but she holds her tongue they join a stream of small folk making for Riverrun. Animals before them are pulling wanes. They make way as Catelyn rides past, cheering her with Tully Stark.

Half a mile from the castle, she passes a Blackwood encampment. Lucas, Blackwood takes his leave to seek Lord Tytos and the rest ride on. They see a second camp with Piper, Derry, and Page banners. Her father's bannermen. Edmure had called them back to the fight. God save us, it's true. He means to offer battle to Lord Tywin. This does seem to be such an ultimate fear lurking in this chapter. Tywin, for Catelyn.

She wants more than anything to avoid conflict with him. The stranger has transformed into Tywin here, right? She thinks they will lose. It does feel like there are some nice dark parallels to the end of Arya's chapter, when Arya of course gives Whis' name to Jaqen H'ghar, and she feels regret at that. These were the men who mattered, the ones she ought to have killed. Last night she could have whispered any of them dead. If only she hadn't been so mad at Whis for hitting her and lying about the cabin. Lord Tywin, why didn't I say Lord Tywin? Instead, Arya watches helplessly as Whis is the man killed by a shadow like Catelyn watched last chapter as the shadow descended on Renly.

But of course, Catelyn had less choice in that matter. Not Arya. Yeah, absolutely. And that's interesting, you know. but of course Catlin had less choice in that matter not Arya yeah absolutely and that's interesting it's also very much you're right it's a lot of great parallels between them of like

wish I could reach this person and kill them instead god damn it but you know Arya you made that decision because the plot needed you to sucks yeah it's not her fault it's not your fault it's not your fault also it's like a kid you know you give a kid like three wishes come on yeah it's the immediate desire for for that um but also it makes sense for taiwan to be their big fear right like i mean he was the one that they were like oh that guy fucked up the last king in a way to betray them so from a distance catelyn sees something dangle from river ends walls closer she sees oh it's dead men slumped

on long ropes crimson cloaks bright the men just cheerfully, all except for Brienne, who was gazing up, unblinking, unsmiling, and silent. Again, that line from Catelyn, if they have slayed the Kingslayer, then my daughters are dead as well. Catelyn spurred her horse to a canter. I'm definitely reminded, now

that you talked about this already, with the hangings and being related kind of to Stoneheart's later character, something about the Lannister envoys being hanged you know reminds me a lot of the plot with the Karstarks that we still have to come we haven't even done that yet that is coming so it's

it's definitely the big foreshadowing definitely the harsh stuff going on definitely a dark day to come and it is definitely foreshadowed here the harsh stuff going on definitely a dark day to come and it is definitely foreshadowed here with hanging envoys absolutely the men in the guard race to the gatehouse and edmure rides to meet cat surrounded by her father's men desmond grell master at arms eutherides wayne the steward and robin reig, captain of guards. They spent their life in his service, and she realizes for the first

time that these men are now old in front of her eyes, and that is a very I understand this feeling. I know Nauticast focused a lot on this part in their coverage, and it's just such a sad line, you know, once youthful, but now here they are, old, tired men

fighting for their lives their homes their people and for the first time she sees them that way she doesn't remember them that way she remembers them youthful with their father fighting and fucking and drinking you know yeah absolutely admir is dressed in a red and blue cloak over a silver fish embroidered tunic very sharp but his beard is crazy bushy and red. It's out of control. I'm happy for him. I'm so happy for him.

Movember. They feared for Kat when they had heard of Renly's death and Kat brushes it off and says she's more concerned for her father. This is definitely a, it reminds me a bit of the beginning of Danny's next chapter when she comes back from trying to work with the pureborn in Qarth. And it turns out it was a useless visit, right? She comes back with nothing to show for an alliance between them, much like Catelyn right now with the men via Renly and Stannis. And the conversation between Dany and Zaro goes,

They said no. They said it with great courtesy, to to be sure but under all the lovely words it was still no did you flatter them shamelessly did you weep the blood of the dragon does not weep she said testily zaro sighed you ought to have wept ah cadeline ought to have wept i suppose truly a lot of the centrist like luxury ridden bullshit that zaro is spewing at danny in this next chapter does also feel very reminiscent of renly right beneath his silk and green pavilion as zaro hands danny fruits and pomegranates and silks and jewels feels very similar yeah absolutely and yeah that's a great point. And, I mean, like, there's a similar subtext, too, about, you know, both Zaro, right, and Renly, of course, both being gay.

So, interesting. I don't know what George is saying. Watch out, Zaro. Watch out for a giant shadow over top of you Zaro Zoendoxis who is still alive in the books reminder and again like I said watch out for those flapping wings because they could be above you at any

moment buddy any moment in the winds of winter look under your chair look up look up you're the chair Auster had asked for cat um he's been growing weaker she vows to go visit him soon and asks if they had any word from storm's end or

bitter bridge since runley's death and nothing had come from bitter bridge but three birds had come from courtney penrose at storm's end stannis has him surrounded by siege and he will offer his loyalty to whichever king frees him he fears for the boy as he should when no one knows who the boy is brienne says edric storm robert's bastard stannis swore the garrison could be free if they yielded the castle and the boy but courtney will not consent he risks all for a base-born boy whose blood is not even his own, Catelyn thought. Subtextually not saying her husband's name. Thinking about Jon Snow again for the 80th time this chapter.

Yep, pretty much. Yep, we're thinking about Jon and Ned. Yep. Yep. She doesn't know, though. She doesn't know. Catelyn doesn't know. Push it down. Yep. Yep. Yep. She doesn't know, though. She doesn't know. She's like, huh? Catalin doesn't know. Push it down.

Yep. Absolutely. At this point, if she doesn't know, she's not gonna. Robin Breiger asks how Renly died, claiming they had heard some queer tales, and Edmure cuts to the chase, and he's like, everyone's saying you killed Renly, sis. Or some queer southern woman did it. And Brienne speaks up, and he's like everyone's saying you killed Renly sis or some queer southern woman did

it and Brienne speaks up and she's like uh Catelyn's innocent by the gods and by my sword I swear it and Catelyn's like oh this is Brienne word and she actually goes around introducing her to each man at the table individually which is really great she doesn't like just leave it awkward like yeah this is my friend from work brienne you know how some people do that and you're like any any help here what your name is no okay i yeah that's me sometimes but i'm just not like socially graceful like catelyn you know yeah well catelyn is she is diplomatic as fuck here and each man tells her oh it's an, and they treat her with commonplace courtesy. And Brienne blushes because of it.

And I think this is just so sweet. Edmure is very sweet to her. And this is how these houses were raised, right? They were raised to treat everyone with this genuine courtesy. Not the overt, obvious, fake saccharine courtesy that she experienced in the reach and the performance in the games this is the genuine raw way that they were kind of brought up to treat them to treat other nobles that they would work with and meet with i mean absolutely you know as you said the courtesy comes from like everyone at this table and it comes back

a little to what we were saying about how likeatelyn we see is treated with much more respect in the North than Renly's kingdom did. And also part of it is because this Brienne moment is a little weird, but they're also like, I don't know. They're kind of used to it, right? They got Daisy here. You have mage over there laying waste to the Westerly. And they're like, yeah, yeah okay we've seen that before but it also to some extent speaks to caitlin's own influence and power uh within the north and i mean in general like they likely view brienne with a bit of curiosity again but like caitlin also extends

and uses her own social and political clout to normalize brianne to the others besides them you know being like mildly familiar with the concept of yes women warriors of course yeah well caitlin tells them the truth they were there but they had no part in runley's death and she doesn't care to talk about the shadow baby so she changes the subject to the men that edmure has hanged she literally waves her hand as if to be like love what you've done with the place i really loved it edmure explains these hanged men and that they had come as envoys with sir kleos ate his food and meat for three days before trying to free the kingslayer on the fourth feels like it could be foreshadowing for something i'm just not sure the biggest man had killed two guards with his hands the skinny one had broken into the cell

and the one on the end was a mummer using edmure's own voice to command the river gate be opened the guardsmen swear by that story edmure's like i don't know i don't think the man sounded like me i heard him catalan suspects tyrian's cunning in this story once she would have named tyrian the least dangerous of the lannisters but now she thinks she's not so sure admir hadn't been in the castle when they had arrived cadeline is like you've been out whoring or wenching get on with the tale oh kind of harsh and when he did arrive the men are dumbfounded at who they were taking commands from they're like wait if you're not over there who are we taking commands from boss yeah and okay so i have a hot take i have a hot take a lot of cats disdain all right for edmure is just slut

shaming all right here in other chapters, she's just mad at Ymir because he fucks. Yeah, I mean, she can't. All she wants to do right now is just take a nooner with Daddy Malister, have a day off, not

think about anything, maybe get hers, you know, I don't know. Could be wild. Anyways. Blow her back no it is though it is actually like i do think that it's absolutely very much based in like the fact that she has let her womb quicken for swords and for capital in this race and has gotten nothing out of it and he gets to just go off doesn't have to marry right now you know he will eventually obviously in the events of the red wedding there but uh hasn't been made to marry right now you know he will eventually obviously in the events of the red wedding there but uh hasn't been made to marry you know super young hasn't been made to reproduce

and make heirs it's just good enough it's whenever admira gets around to it you know and now no one's gonna make him that's true except for her and rob well and rob and their uncle when they all get him but i mean before that exact moment but he also takes that very easily we'll talk about that soon yeah they had retaken the kingslayer from this whole event not easily jamie had killed paul purford and sir desmond squire and wounded another so badly he died too he hanged those four through the rest in the dungeons jamie had been returned to a cell bolted to the wall in the dark kleos is put back in jamie's old tower cell and he had actually brought terms but admir's like they're not very good you probably don't want to

read them eutherides wayne says tywin doesn't suffer the charge of incest lightly and he'll be soon looking to wash the stain off of Cersei with the blood of her accuser. Stannis has no choice but to make common cause with Robb, he says. Well, Catelyn's like, they'll speak of these matters later, and trots ahead over the drawbridge on her horse, her brother keeping pace, and naked toddler runs out in front of the horse, and Catelyn veers to miss it. She notices that there are small folk everywhere, making shelter against the walls, children underfoot. Who are all these folk?

My people, Edmure answered. They were afraid. Only my sweet brother would crowd all these useless mouths into a castle that might soon be under siege. Catelyn knew that Edmure had a soft heart. Sometimes she thought his head was even softer. She loved him for it, yet still... Okay, I am going to argue that Edmure Defense Club, and there is a little hypocrisy here from Cat in just her perspective on this, Edmure is making good decisions based on the information he had, much like when Kat took Tyrion, right? That was information she had, and she based her decision on that. Robin the Blackfish, hands down, should have been more

inclusive in their planning. Bottom line on this one, if they wanted him to act a very specific way. Earlier, Catelyn mentions a good king would care about these things and robs a good king but the reality is that they're living in a different world right now a good lord can care about these things and then it still is the wrong move in her eyes apparently i mean he's protecting the very people that this morning when she arrived cheered her name, right, as she rode in. I do think this is pretty parallel to Cersei with these women who are highly inundated in these strong class politics. We see Cersei later in this book with the woman in Maegor's holdfast looking around at them as if they ain't shit. And Catelyn here is really disregarding the people when earlier she said a good king wouldn't do that

that's a great point, absolutely there's a lot of hypocrisy there and I love Edmure for this, right also, like, Edmure won I mean, it was at great cost, right but he did fight to defend his people, as you said and especially their lands. And like,

yeah, I mean, I guess you could just like let Tywin go through, but like they're gonna raise that countryside and that's those people's livelihoods, right? Like, should we just let the Lannisters, you know, destroy all of that too? Like, Ender was helping these people come together

and not just protect them, but defend their homes. Like, how come the North gets to do that, but the Riverlands have to be the ones who are sacrificed? Like, they always are. Yeah, and just because she sacrificed for the Riverlands doesn't mean that they should too at that extent, if that makes sense. I feel that's, it's definitely something from her attempt to squeeze her family

close to her right every moment that she clings to them and keeps them close to her lest they be destroyed and lost amongst the winds of winter it causes blind spots for her in many ways when we talk about stannis being unyielding how catelyatelyn is unyielding, she'll break before she bends. And we will see that. We will see that. That is how her story, I guess not ends, but, you know, life ends. Anyways. Fun.

We're having fun. Look at all the fun we're having. It does give us insight, insight you know also into like who yeah caitlin becomes right and the decisions she's going to make later even within this book because as you said right she gets a little blinded by all that and and you know she thinks that edgar's softness means he's unable to make hard choices or sacrifices and those blind spots like lead to kathlyn making some of these gambles later in the book and she's of course very much not soft as a zombie and also it's a lot of lashing out like we said like she's limited she can't do things and one by one she gets more and more taken from her

as far as autonomy during this war rob continues to strip her of the things that she's allowed to do. Obviously, when she frees Jamie, she chooses that life. But she knew she was willing to trade that. And I do think there's a lot of, you know, when it's the only thing you can do, you do it. You know, the protest. We see Jane rip her dress later and protest you know of her mom's treatment and of the phrase and what they've done to the northern coalition it's our those little

tiny dignities you get to take absolutely the small stolen moments yeah catalan asks if rob can be reached by raven but he's in the field. He'd instructed them to send Catelyn to the twins when she returned to learn more of Walder's daughters for him. Total bullshit. They begin to pack her up, but Catelyn's like, hysterical. I'll be staying here with my dying father. Thank you very much. I will not be going to the twins. Edmure swung down from his saddle. He was a head taller than she was, but he'd always be her little brother. I thought we should point this one out because if we had siblings, it would make sense to us. Also, if anyone was taller than I am, no one is. Edmure's unhappy. He tries to tell her she's

unsafe with Tywin coming, but she rebuts he's making for the West. Edmure means to defend the Tolleyland, though, and teach Tywin a lesson. Catelyn says they have nothing to gain from fighting Tywin and Edmure says they shouldn't be discussing battle plans in the yard. He guides them toward the godswood, angry, sulking, and Catelyn feels really bad for wounding his pride but she also knows that the matter is a little too important to worry about pride. Interesting that Edmure brought them to a place, the Godswood, to discuss things secretly, because that's what Catelyn's daughter is also doing. Right? I like that a lot. Probably have a similar time. Yeah.

Come to the Godswood if you want to live yeah that's kind of actually what's happening and catelyn tells emir bluntly beneath the trees that he does not have the strength to meet the lannisters in field tywin has twice his numbers and you're says well rob's face worse odds and catelyn is forgetting that Roose Bolton with Roose Bolton, he has 10,000 men, and Helman Tallheart plans to join the Gears, and Rob left the twins to him. So there. And Catelyn exclaims that Rob had left

those men to hold the twins and keep Lord Walder's peace. And Edgier stubbornly argues that alright, you know what, the Freys fought bravely at Oxcross, and the Whispering Wood, Ryman and Black Walder and the rest are with Rob, and Martin and Perwin have been providing good service as well, and you know what? The Freys fought bravely at Oxcross and the Whispering Wood. Ryman and Blackwalder and the rest are with Rob. And Martin and Perwin have been providing good service as well. And you know what?

Roose has also married a Frey, right? Rob is going to marry one. And then he says, God's be good, how much more can we ask of them? Yeah, it's really rough because Edmure is absolutely positively making some great points because

there's not much more they can ask of them. They're doing all they can as Freys. off because Edmure is absolutely positively making some great points because like there's not much more they can ask of them they're doing all they can as Freys they've lost a handful in the last couple battles they've caused huge tensions across the family and like look the Freys suck not counting all their betrayals

and shit they suck we're not huge Freys fans we like a handful they've given and given to this alliance but at the same time edmure's not taking stock of the things he's saying they married bruce into the phrase already and bruce has all of the army currently uh and just like going through these thoughts out loud he's not really thinking about them and if anything feels consequential edmure moving the garrison and giving the okay for them to be moved that's the mistake that is an issue that right there had you left tall heart there that

would have been fine maybe it just would have been like one more obstacle for the Freys to murder later on but at least it slows the plotting but also the fact that like Bruce has been brought up that he's married into the Freys and then you realize how many Freys are in this chapter alone and like we're not even in major Frey land right now

it's over Bruce built the coffin Rob's betrayal nails the coffin yeah no that's a good point that for those assurances are there right and moving those is kind of a little like i mean it's a little like rob letting go of theon but and all of these all of these things right come together to make a mess for the starks but But regardless, I do think, you know, to be a slight Frey apologist for a moment, I think it's a very consistent character beat for Edmure when he points out, like, how much more can they ask of them, right? And as their future lord, he's thinking of, like, dude, we've asked our vassals, like, a lot. They've given up a lot for this war.

And I don't think that's just coming from a place of empathy or duty i think it's a really practical rationale on his part and it's an important reminder on a reread in a chapter about like oh maybe vows shouldn't be broken all right because that's it's a big risk when you've asked this much of people and then you're like hmm you know what rob rob being like what if i broke my vows um just because i never learned how to hit it and quit it but um i think edmure's making a great point that it's also like not great to be too indebted to the phrase right you can't ask them for too much especially with all of that and and you know in the end you know it's probably for the best i think that caitlin didn't go there to choose a

bride for rob ahead of time because like yes it would have been a good show of faith right that he was working on keeping his promise but in the end turns out it would have all just been a show because even if catlin went he was still probably gonna he's still probably gonna like sleep with jane westerling all right and then that would have put cat in an extremely dangerous position um to be at the twins when rob breaks that vow. But then again, I also ask, and this isn't Kat's fault at all, right, but it's more of just

like a what if, like, if Katlyn had been at the twins, would Rob have been less likely to risk breaking that vow? I don't think he would have been less likely. I think he still would have broken it in the exact same way, because obviously her presence didn't change too much before the Jamie breaking free stuff.

As far as what's going on in the Riverlands, like she obviously has come home and learned that it really doesn't fucking matter what she advises anymore. Like Rob's obviously going to do what he has to do. And like, here's the kicker. Sending cattle into the twins would be one more hostage that's a hostage that would be literally giving your mother as hostage yeah so him saying him thinking to send her to the twins and it's literally just to keep her busy is the stupidest thing he could think to do uh if he still fucks jane on accident which he would because he was already fucking her on accident, quote unquote, Catelyn's dead or worse than the phrase rebelled earlier. And she's still dead.

And now you have no family, Rob, because that's the thing. There isn't enough gold in the Westerlands that Rob can steal that will pay to bring back Arya and Sansa, let alone then bring back Catelyn. Not enough gold in the westerlands that he can steal right now for that so you've already lost aria and sanza and you already are like well that's too bad about my hostage sisters i guess i guess we just got to chalk that one up to do better next time mom get remarried good luck uh now you're losing your mom too guess what rob you have no family now it's over over for you. It's over. You've wasted all your family away.

Absolutely. But would he, thinking of Catelyn at the twins, maybe he thinks of his mom and that makes his boner go away. He's like, oh no, my mom! Anyway. If only he had thought about catelyn before he came actually it could be worse now that you say that though so anyways yeah so oh well rob didn't think of his mom while he was fucking so clearly you think one arrived because of that and you're also

mentioned steverin's death which catelyn didn't know about because apparently she's behind on it. All the news. Why didn't anyone keep Catelyn up on the gossip? I don't know. Also, like, Roose Bolton's new marriage. Why didn't anyone tell her? Why was she not invited? Rude. Also, Edmure continues that the Boltons will retake Harrenhal, a bloody business,

Katz says, and once taken, Tywin will have no retreat. Edmure's leaveys will defend the red fork and he if he attacks the river he'll end up like reygar a bloody business she says about retaking harrenhal if he holds back he'll be caught between river run and harrenhal and rob can come down on tywin from the west. Edmure's full of confidence in this plan, but Catelyn finds herself wishing Robb had left Brynden behind, a veteran of half a hundred battles, where Edmure was a veteran of one lost battle. Edmure concludes that he has Lord Tytos and Lord Jonos' support, which must be a

sign if Bracken and Black would agree on something. Catelyn has fallen weary of the conversation and she thinks perhaps she was wrong to oppose him. Perhaps it was a splendid plan and her misgivings were only a woman's fears. She wished Ned were here or her uncle Brynden or... Okay, you know we can't all be 16 year old boar prodigies all right but i mean like i i love edmure and you know to be honest it's only like an okay plan like it succeeds but again like at a really high cost but to focus back on catelyn like her doubting her

own expertise when we've seen her actually make some really great military observations already in her previous chapters is part of of course how women are socialized in westeros and in real life to doubt ourselves in our expertise um but caitlin still very much buys into it right despite her talks with brienne and she does kind of wish some man any man that she trusts or knows like mostly that she trusts because she knows some men and she like doesn't give a shit about them but like that she trusts we're here to validate her own expertise or that she could just lean on them yeah she wants to be weary as we'll get to in the following chapters all of the rest of her chapters, truly. And she thinks about her father and asks if Edmure's talked to him about all of this.

And he's like, Catelyn, you've been gone a couple months. His state has deteriorated and he can't really make war plans now. Edmure says two days ago he was replanning her marriage to Brandon Stark. He promises her the plan will work and and she hopes it will, too, kissing him on the cheek, and she goes to find her dad. He's abed, Hoster looks haggard, pale, clammy, and the room smells

of stale sweat and sickness. Hoster moans at the sunlight that Kat lets in, staring at her like she's some stranger. She kisses him a hello, and we get this passage from him. South? Where is the eerie South, sweetling? I don't recall. Oh, dear heart, I was afraid. Have you forgiven me, child? Tears ran down his cheeks.

You've done nothing that needs forgiveness, father. She stroked his limp white hair and felt his brow. The fever still burned him from within, despite all the maester's potions. It was best. John's a good man. Good, strong, kind. Take care of you.

He will, and well-born. Listen to me, you must. I'm your father. Your father. Your wedwin cat does to me, you must. I'm your father. Your father. You'll wed when Cat does, yes you will. He thinks I'm Lysa, Cat realized. God be good, he talks as if we were not married yet. Her father's hands clutched at hers, fluttering like two frightened white birds.

That's stripling. Wretched boy. Not speak that unemployed name to me. Your duty. Your mother. She would have... Pastor cried as a spasm of pain washed over him. Oh, God.

Forgive me. Forgive me. Forgive me. My medicine. Thank you. God damn it, Chloe. Here to ruin a passage. Here to ruin the passage passages some unemployed stripling dude I didn't notice this until you were reading it aloud did George write this intentionally so that like

Hoster Tully sounded like Yoda yeah listen to me you must yeah I'm really into that I'm really into that it's just dying talk you know this is what old men sound like when they die I've seen a couple of them go so I mean Yoda is what old men sound like when they die i've seen a couple of them go so i mean yoda's real old he's like 900 years old so uh well real talk this is

the worst right like the failing body it's very sad it does remind me of my grandfather my dad's dad uh had dementia really badly at the end and it's just like you know sometimes they just don't know you it's awful yeah no i mean the whole passage is really sad especially you know also knowing the context of it liza yeah yeah i mean you know i'm gonna start with like you know first of all speaking of john's john snow it's only later i think like after a couple of yoda sentences that cat realizes that oh he's talking about john aaron uh when hoster says that you know she's gonna he she's gonna wed like when cat does and turns out it's about liza but like those first few lines when she doesn't realize that i'm just saying like that whole john's a

good man and like yeah i'm just saying yeah john snow is also a good man strong kind well born um i don't know it says take care of you and i don't know maybe he would especially in the 1993 letter where she adds to the wall but i wonder if cat when like first hearing this was like what the fuck dad why are you telling me all this about my husband's bastard son until she realizes um turns out it's on the mind bastard it's about a different bastard um especially with all that like forgive me because it is really sad we've talked about it before but like hoster asking for forgiveness but too late like he couldn't bring himself to do it earlier just created this like long cycle of pain for his children and and i think like hoster is

like a great example of good intentions leading to harmful actions but he does care he does care about his kids right unlike tywin and like but those were terrible consequences but perhaps you know kat does make a similar calculus in terms of good intentions and harmful actions and her decision to free jamie later i don't know it's a thought runs in the family yeah and breaking that cycle and breaking those predisposed thoughts that they're kind of just indoctrinated with from their culture and yeah i do think it's interesting that you bring up john snow in general because it actually kind of is similar to the speech with Lyanna and Ned, right? Of what we know of it. Then the strength

went out of her, the strength went out of him. Giving a secret before death, asking to promise things, you know. There's a lot of promises in this chapter. A whole lot of promises. Maester Vyman appears with medicine. He's holding a cup of white potion to Hoster, and peace settles over him.

It's milk of the poppy, and I have to say, the way it's described as foaming and white in this chapter sounds so fucking good. up delicious foamy horchata or chai tea that i a person with rheumatoid arthritis and 800 other issues i'm over here like yeah i would drink milk of the poppy i would be drinking that shit all the time put a little cinnamon on top little nutmeg right you know just foamed up frothed up add some boba let's get crazy let's fuck it up milk of the poppy boba flavor will you even like realize like after a while you might be like what is this when you're like with, boba flavor. Will you even, like, realize, like, after a while, you might be like, what is this? When you're, like, with the boba, you know? What if it's dangerous to do that? What I'm saying is I've only been in Westeros for approximately 12 seconds,

and I'm already addicted to narcotics in Westeros. Wow. That's worrisome. It is worrisome. This is very scary. Let's get you different. There's other milk. Why couldn't you have been into, like, goat's milk, Chloe?

Oh, the fermented goat's milk? Yeah, why didn't you pick that one all right will it make me forget eliana will it make me maybe it might apparently it's like alcoholic right nothing to do but find out i don't know i feel like it's a texture thing like it just sounds like drunk cottage cheese to me it does sound like kind of gross i'm like oh no i'm never gonna but what if it's not what if it's like what if it's not i don't know i'll have to look up i bet there's real fermented i bet it's fine somewhere yeah i bet it's absolutely fine i just bet that i'm just imagining drunk cottage cheese yeah well it hurts cadeline to watch her father reduced to this she goes out onto the, watching the refugees in chaos below the walls, and then she watches the rivers, thinking those are his rivers, and soon he will return to them for his last voyage. Maester Vyman follows her out, telling Catelyn that

Hoster doesn't have much longer left. They should send for Brynden, Lady Lysa, perhaps. Catelyn says Lysa will not come. And Vyman says, maybe if you write her. She says she will, though it won't change the outcome. She wonders to herself who Lysa's wretched stripling had been. Some squire or knight or singer, likely. The way Hoster'd opposed him made him seem baseborn or a tradesman's son or a singer, for sure. It feels pointed how poisoned writing a letter to her sister feels now right like liza ruined that the last letter she received from

liza drew them all into this horrible madness and broke all of her trust and her relationship she had built over the last 20 30 years with her sister and i do have to laugh though that she thinks it could be a singer and that Liza's known for her love of singers even back then pointing to Marillion right in the next book and also interesting that other people must know this often that she had this predisposition to singers because it shows Littlefinger knew what he was doing when he framed Marillion oh that's a great point interesting I also was thinking, like, in a way it is a singer, right? Like, because Littlefinger

uses the songs and legends to I mean, manipulate Sansa one around here, but also right, he's a mockingbird, right? The mockingbird imitates the songs of other birds. Things like that, so. Yeah. That's it.

Oh, okay. Well, yeah, I agree. That's it. Oh, okay. Well, yeah, I agree. Well, Catelyn has been put to live in the tower that she and Lysa once shared as girls, and she's ready to sleep in the feather bed and rest at the hearth once again. But as she needs her chambers, Utherity's wane waits with two gray-clad silent sisters.

Catelyn knew at once why they were here. Sir Cleos had brought Ned's bones to Riverrun. They had laid him out on a trestle table and covered him with a banner, the white banner of House Stark with its gray direwolf sigil. I would look on him, Catelyn said. Only the bones remain, my lady. I would look on him, Catelyn said. Only the bones remain, my lady. I would look on him, she repeated. One of the silent sisters turned down the banner. Bones, Catelyn thought. This is not Ned. This is not the man I loved, the father of my children. His hands were clasped together

over his chest. Skeletal fingers curled about the hilt of some long sword but they were not ned's hands so strong and full of life they addressed the bones in ned's circo the fine white velvet with the direwolf badge over the heart but nothing remained of the warm flesh that had pillowed her head so many nights the arms that had held her so many nights the arms that had held her mom very sad about this and I don't wish to speak about it so you speak about it Eliana

it's all you buddy it is sad though it's so heartbreaking it's like the heart of the chapter but I do love the repetition of Catelyn saying that she would look on him. And as she looks at Ned, she actually has a similar reaction to Sansa, right? When Sansa was forced to look at Ned's head. I mean, Sansa in that moment had to will herself to stomach it because she was being forced by Joffrey. But both realize, like, no, this is not the Ned they knew and loved.

This is just a body. And another connection, once more, you know, a lot of connections with Neri's chapters as we're finding between Catelyn and her. But coming back to that line, and I think we discussed it last episode also, like that Mirri Maz Dor tells Dany in Dany 9 A Game of Thrones of, look to your call and see what life is worth when all the rest is gone and that's what cat is undergoing here as she's seeing her husband's bones like that this is not him same as how drogo's body barely functioning was not him and also even cat asking to be alone with ned's bones in a moment like reminds me a little bit of danny thinking she will give this one last night to Drogo for all the nights they had and all the nights to come. And I

will also ask, what does this all mean for Lady Stoneheart? Because this moment as Kat also ponders Ned's bones, I think it dialogues really interestingly with another concept that we bring up a lot uh that our friend poor quentin also brings up a lot of men's lives have meanings

not their men's lives have meaning not their deaths and again ned's death did have meaning and that he chose to risk himself so that his daughters might live same as how catelyn's about to take this enormous gamble so that her daughters might live but this dead body is not ned her memories of him alive are yeah it comes back to what she told brienne right fight for the living not for the dead which i'm pretty sure is just like a walking dead slogan right but shout out skybound entertainment and she's she's about to be like fuck that shit i'm now the dead uh yeah uh the passion and the color has left her life right it's dribbled out of her life without net i found this so interesting that his head was reconnected with

silver wire to his body and she remembers his eyes had been eaten by crows and that those aren't his eyes and when she turns away she realizes his sword's not there either just bones it's so sad so empty uh it does feel you know a little a little foreshadowy for rob coming up of course with his head being uh separated and a wolf's head being sewn on instead to his body. Like how here they had had to piece Ned back together after chopping his head off. And of course it reminds me about Gregor

as well, later on with the line of one skull replacing another and the idea again of those skulls bringing no peace and no justice. Crows are also featured super significantly in this with poking his eyes out and death literally hanging from the Riverlands sandstone walls.

Their faces swollen in black. The crows had been at them. It's just awful and terrible that the crows are circling. They've come for your husband. They're coming for your father. And soon they'll come for the rest of you. And, you know, finally finally the saddest part about this is that i feel it resonates so well with what laura says in a storm of swords right when the sun is set no candle will replace it yeah that's that's absolutely

how catelyn feels here and like we said i, of all the people in Renly's camp, it turns out Loras is probably the one that she shares the most with. Yeah. I really hope we get more about Loras's character. I mean, I know that he might be dead. I know that's a possibility, but I like to think that there's something up Tyrell's sleeve. Even if he ends up switching over to aegon's crew and dies later i do think there's something going on right like i think there's some sort of semblance of hope for him and maybe he will

switch over and he will be a king's guard instead for him which kind of makes him the only king's guard uh of the Barristan, right? Like, he's like the young Barristan here that he's going to get switched over if that happens, and he actually stays. So that's interesting. But I do hope that we get more on him. I think there's so much more to his character that could be played with. I agree.

Catelyn says that she must thank the queen for even this much of Ned being returned. But Eurythides says the imp was the reason that Ned was returned, not the queen. I'm glad she gets told Tyrion's the reason Ned was returned. However, of course, that confirms her suspicions that he's super smart and probably orchestrated this big breakout for Jaime. But I do think that this shows she's doing a little bit of projecting on Cersei, some of those sympathies and empathies that she's hoping she can share with this other mother, hoping that bit of, uh, that last bit of maternal humanity exists in Cersei, because when she loses

that hope, I guess she has nothing else to hope about, right? So I can understand that. But so much so, she attributed all of this to Cersei and not tyrian to be fair she doesn't know that tyrian just gave his sister like fucking poisoning all day just to you know be able to do this whole this whole thing here this whole sending new ideas back and forth but also did try to break jamie out yeah i guess she doesn't really like know how much is you know like in tyrian's power also and i mean she associates it with circe uh because i mean like you said she's projecting a lot and circe was the one who was there when ned was beheaded and she couldn't know that circe was like fuck this jeopardizes my lover

um and and i think part of why she's thinking of it as Circe is because when she's saying thank, she has a very specific meaning, right? Because she thinks soon that one day she will thank them all. And it's a very pointed line. Like, clearly she doesn't actually mean thank. Clearly she means I'm going to kill them all. like clearly she doesn't actually mean things clearly she means I'm gonna kill them all it's just like when Sansa thinks

when she exalts and she's like Rob will kill you all yeah there's a clear line through line between them thinking that and I think doesn't Catelyn say that line more or less in like the show which is ridiculous she would never say that aloud like that

we'll get the girls back and we'll kill them all yeah um that's a shulney line yeah making her more aggressive it's in the last uh episode of season one i believe it doesn't make sense to me because the whole point is this line is so important it's a single line but it it signals such a big change in caitlyn's character because finally finally caitlyn's interiority has caught up to what she has admitted to brienne because now she's finally admitting to herself something that she has been saying the opposite of in previous chapters because finally in this moment she's admitting yeah i do want vengeance and not just on seriously not just the lannisters who were there not just on joffrey all of that yes and burn it down that's the whole thing like

all the other chapters were leading up to this and the whole point is it's a development for caitlin's character to get here because every time in the previous chapters when it's come up Catelyn has asked in a very like sad way she's like well vengeance bring my Ned back to me no and like she even says it to herself and thinks it inside but now she's like been faced with the reality and the finality of Ned's bones and has to really acknowledge like, my love is gone. Ned is gone. And really seeing that consequence, Catelyn makes the same sort of promises that Daenerys did that same chapter.

You know, when the new calls like killed some of her followers and then abandoned them, she said, I swear to you, these men will die screaming. This is that same promise that Catelyn is making to herself in a similar moment because like as you said right she seemed like there's so much insult in this body that she's been given back like they let the crows eat her husband's eyes they had to rewire his head to his body and they took his sword like all of it it's lacking it's she finds herself wanting still i want i want because this is not enough this will not sate that hunger and nothing's going to bring ned back to her she finally accepts and knows that now like what that really means and as she emerges from her grief she finds that

she cannot actually make peace with that despite wanting to and starts to allow herself to yearn for vengeance and part of that is because of brienne like all this time catelyn has had to reckon with men uh who never knew they never loved ned not like she did and they're the ones promising her vengeance and that's empty all right that doesn't mean anything it's a performance to be of like masculinity of like yeah we're gonna get vengeance for your husband but in her interactions this chapter brienne knows what that is like very intimately and she acts as a mirror for caitlin she reflects her loss back to her of someone that she loved as because caitlin reminds

brianne right she knows that pain and in brianne him caitn sees is also a woman like herself, but also not like herself, right? Brienne vocalizes her anger towards Stannis and her desire to avenge Renly, you know, holding his dying body. And in Brienne giving voice to that, she has given license to Catelyn to also voice how she feels about Ned's death. In truth. For the first time. With someone who really gets that. And thus. Catelyn's able to actually own her anger. While she's holding Ned's body.

And come to want vengeance too. Yeah. That's the thing right. Like you nailed it. Brienne gets it. Brienne has suffered because of this society and she feels more vulnerable and sharing those experiences with Brienne. She felt comfortable enough to finally say, wow, that is what I want. I do want to fuck everyone's life up for this that they've done to me over all these years, decades of pain. Yeah. She wants to burn it all down. Fire and blood. I got it. I got it.

I do. And I'm realizing now, that's how Liza feels about her family. She also is, like earlier we were saying, Catelyn lashing out because there's nothing else she can do. Liza is an obvious, like, Liza does not stop lashing. Liza is like a sprinkler that won't turn off. Liza is like, just like, screaming out at every corner until she fades out for good. And those, the silent sisters are the most representative part of this, right? The silent sisters, unable to speak, speak repressed bringing her the bones i mean

as we close the chapter we'll see that because she she thanks the silent sisters and she actually tasks them with one last task to take ned's bones north to his home to winterfell and she provides fresh horses and an escort led by hal mullen which this is the last time we see Hal Mullen on page. He comes back in talk, not physically, but he's talked about. And I want to say a Storm of Swords Cat 5, but we never see him again. So where's Hal?

You in the neck, Hal? You stopped at Greywater, buddy? I don't know. I think he might be. I've read some theories that he could, some people think he might be the hooded man too in Winterfell, which could be interesting. I could see that. Because we don't know where he is.

Yeah, you know interestingly the man who is very good at saying the obvious. It is not obvious where he is. Alright. Where are you? Eliana, you're so funny sometimes. Alright. Where are you? Aliana, you're so funny sometimes.

Let's end this chapter. She gazed down at the bones that were all that remained of her lord and love. Now leave me, all of you. I will be alone with Ned tonight. The women in grey bowed their heads. The silent sisters do not speak to the living, Catelyn remembered remembered dully but some say they can talk to the dead and how she envied that

well maybe don't get too envious now catelyn what a fucking like banger of a way to end it like look whoever i was back in the the early 2010s when i read this i really wish that i would have realized right here like how did i miss it how did we not know it's right here yeah that she becomes she don't speak i guess it's also we're tearing this apart slowly we didn't think to read this way our very first read thank god that would have been awful uh it wouldn't have worked well exactly it's overwhelming right there's so much in each chapter it all kind of layers together it's like a seven layer dip you know what i'm saying like a real good seven layer dip or like a five layer dip because we only got

five books but yeah interesting i meant the povs but that too that way to way to just depress me some more eliana wow you're welcome you're welcome yeah uh you don't see it you don't see it coming but here i do i see it it's right there how she envied that oh catalan be careful what you wish for what a chapter lots to think about lots to ponder Brienne's role feels so much bigger yeah I do too

Brienne's role feels so much bigger in Catelyn's arc this read through than I remember it I feel really glad to be able to focus on that this time and just understand their relationship yeah like in this read I feel really glad to be able to focus on that this time and just understand their relationship. Yeah, like in this read, like, obviously they had talks, but I'm really starting to see more like that Brienne has a marked change on Catelyn. And vice versa.

Yeah, yeah, of course. But like, you know, you obviously always think like, oh, the mentor figure, right? Or whatever. But like, they both really have a profound effect on one another you know the saddest part is that this is the relationship that catalan should have been able to have with aria and sansa and grow up with them and teach them these things these are the formative years for them and she should be she should be with them right now teaching them these things yeah so there's definitely an aspect right and she doesn't think it allowed but i mean that's obviously part of the subtext right of like wondering wondering will my daughters grow up to be this woman yeah or like even just like being able to have that relationship right with with a younger woman in that way and yeah especially we see it when she's first talking with maya right in the eerie

and her awkwardness that laid kind of that foundation for this relationship with brienne in a manner of her having to forge ahead yeah yeah Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think that about wraps us up for our 133rd A Song of Ice and Fire episode on Catelyn V in Clash of Kings. We'll be back next week, not with Catelyn. So if you're coming back next week, 7.30 for public, you'll be looking at a his dark materials episode but never fear we will be back sometime in august with more catalan yes at some point but yes absolutely if you want to be more sad though definitely tune into the amber spy class catch up with us if you haven't read the his dark materialsials books. They're great. Things that are less sad, though, will be our Patreon episode next month. Even this month, you know?

Lorath, it's interesting. There's not too much to be that sad about, right? Yeah. And if you are crazy sad, you could always hit us up on social media and bug us for making you sad. Hit us a tweet or a DM over at Girls Gone Canon, C-A-N-O-N. Or you could send us an email with some of your thoughts at girlsgonecanon at gmail.com or if you would like to

keep up with us in case you would also like to feel to just feel your Friday doom call yeah right Friday feelings, feelings Friday I don't know. Google Play.

Apple Podcasts. Spotify. Pandora. iHeartRadio. Audible. Overcast. Acast. That's a good amount. I think I did enough. That's a good petri dish.

Good sampling. You'll find us. Look us up yeah Podbean where all this is all hosted yes of course and if none of those will appease your streaming appetite please check out our Patreon patreon.com slash girls gone canon you get a private

RSS feed of not only these episodes but also Patreon special episodes if you're in the $5 and above tier, the Stranger tier. Like Eliana mentioned, we'll be doing the Free Cities this month, Lorath, for July. And in August, we'll try something different. We'll talk about Ella Enchanted and a couple different angles of that.

And of course, we always have a Discord happy hour and brunch for our $10 and above Thunder tier patrons. If you're in that tier, you have access to our discord server where we hang out, talk about sometimes really cool stuff. Sometimes really stupid shit just depends on the day. We have a blast though. Sometimes there are very intelligent conversations. Sometimes there are very ridiculous conversations.

You should come be a part of both of those. Check that out again, patreon.com slash girls gone canon as always I have been one of your hosts Chloe and I have been another one of your hosts Eliana

we'll see you later yep probably bye