Girls Gone Canon Cast - ASOIAF Episode 136 - ASOS Catelyn I

Episode Date: September 3, 2021

It's all downhill from here: We start on Catelyn's ASOS chapters, and they're real sad. Like very, very sad. It only gets sadder. This episode we get sad about Cat and Lysa's girlhoods and agency over women and girl's bodies.  --- Eliana's twitter: https://twitter.com/arhythmetric Eliana's reddit account: https://www.reddit.com/user/glass_table_girl] Eliana's blog: https://themanyfacedblog.wordpress.com/ Chloe's twitter: https://twitter.com/liesandarbor Chloe's blog: www.liesandarborgold.com Intro by Anton Langhage

Hello, and welcome to Girls Gone Canon, Relate a Song of Ice and Fire, episode 136, A Storm of Swords, Catalin 1. I'm one of your hosts, Chloe. And I am another one of your hosts, Eliana. We're in the storm, the storm of swords. The eye of the storm. Yes. You know, this would be exciting under like any other falsehood, but it's kind of depressing. It doesn't get better from here. I know I keep saying that, but you guys, it does not get better from here. It hurts. It hurts me. Yeah, there was kind of

hope before, but now it's all gone. Now everything just starts sliding downhill, and it doesn't stop. It just accelerates. Or downstream, you could say. That's why it's called the Storm of Swords, you know? The storm is building

before we run into all of that trauma it's coming it's coming before we get there let's talk real quick about some housekeeping you know we just put out a really fun patreon episode Eliana caught this episode up and

I had a blast we talked about ella enchanted or eliana enchanted depending on it it's eliana enchanted and you legally cannot tell me otherwise but we talked about the book series by gail carson levine eliana enchanted on patreon for all our patrons in the stranger and above tier five dollars and above usd tier and that was fun that was actually really fun to cover like it was not what we're reading currently i'm excited to do more of that we should definitely do more of that of just like talking about other books and series yeah especially ones that don't leave us like broken. Moms deserve happiness is what we do.

And yeah, that was exciting. Super exciting. And I think I'm really happy with what we put out there. And we even discussed the movie and how the movie makes me appreciate the book a lot more because the movie was so bad. It was so bad. You know, but that's Game of Thrones, right? Like, that's what Game of Thrones did to us in a way. We were always being fashioned for this moment. And Game of Thrones did that fashioning.

We were forged in that fire of, like, movies and shows that are bad versions of the stories they replicate. So, really fun talking about Ella Enchanted. Which, if you have not read it youth fiction fantasy story wonderful right I read it when I was young Eliana read it when she was young there's some spoiler alerts some great talking about you know reading in the bathroom when you're pretending to be pooping as a child I think we can all relate to that that's why I'm bringing it up now so if you are into youth fiction if you haven't read it take a quick peek it's a quick story it'll take you a day or two to read and uh

if you have read it come by patreon.com slash girls gone canon and that is not the only thing you can do over at our patreon because patrons in the thunder tier the 10 US dollar tier and above, have access to a couple of really fun perks, right? Like, first thing, our Discord. Yes, as Chloe said, patrons in our Thunder tier and above get access to our Discord, where once a month, we do

a brunch slash happy hour on a weekend. And this coming September, I think it'll be on a Sunday I don't know which one yet we will have to figure that out and you know this last one was congratulations themed

but a lot of things happened there was a strange sing-along and it was a lot of fun I wouldn't even say strange it was like the sing-along that was promised. Our friend Jimmy wrote this amazing sing-along, this amazing filk song, right? This band song to the Summer of Catalin

or the Summer of 69 by Bryan Adams. And some of us have emotional ties to the song. Now, if you were at the brunch, you have to have emotional ties to the song we all sang it it was a blast we have to post that somewhere we have to i have to cover it i'm working on it but okay i can i could join i could listen to the song i know what song it is i've just never i think you know it was the summer you know what i mean you like hear it in in like the no i don't know what you mean uh if you were at the brunch you know

that i i disclosed a major personal fact in eighth grade age 14 here in the americas uh you know i i went a little forward and tried out for the pom-pom team and the pom-pom team did summer of 69 by brian adams i stole my parents record of this and by record I mean it was a tape. It was a cassette tape. People listen to those sometimes and I stole that listened to Bryan Adams like crazy to try out. My best friend got in. I didn't.

Very personal song to me Eliana. So Jimmy really our friend Jimmy chose really deeply for this cover. This filk song and crazy things happen every brunch we play jackbox games we give away free art prints and free fandom fun accessories and other things to at least three lucky winners every brunch and the jackbox games are always the craziest truly everyone gets a little wild during those but

otherwise we're just like, I don't know, everyone's being themselves, and I love that. I love Discord Brunch and Happy Hour so much. And speaking of giveaways, if you know of any more His Dark Materials fan artists who have

physical goods, like physical prints, or things that they are making, please send them to us. Send us a tweet or a DM at girlsgoncanon, C-A-N-O-N, on Twitter, or, like, girlsgoncanon at gmail.com. We are on the hunt for a couple more. So let us know if any of them cross your radar, show up on your alethiometer.

And even if not just that, if you have any a song of ice and fire fan artists you're really digging please send us some photos and some links to the the places that you're visiting and what you like lately we're always looking for awesome fan art and if they have a shop the better because we love to just give away some awesome art i'm so in the process of just buying a song of ice and fire fan art and covering my home with it right now i think everyone should have that in their house yeah everyone should have that in their lives uh hey but yeah you know if you're not uh just in a song of ice and fire, but also into some other fantasy, we are covering His Dark Materials. Eliana was a huge fan in her

younger years, and I am a huge fan in my older years. Are you attacking me? Am I being attacked right now? So, as I said, if you're into His Dark Materials, please listen to us, because we have covered

Northern Lights slash The Golden Compass, The Subtle Knife. We're three episodes in on our Amber Spyglass coverage, and we've already finished the first Book of Dust, La Belle Sauvage. It's a blast. It's a great series. Eliana got me into it. I have to say I am very grateful and thankful to her for getting me into this very sad fucking series. So if you want to be fucking depressed about another fucking youth fantasy series, come on over and listen to His Dark Materials because it's deep, man. It's real. But if you want to be the opposite of depressed, go listen to our Ella Enchanted episode.

It's nothing but dopamine. Just like dopamine hits left right dopamine dopamine yeah ash is being very pleased well things that please us are when you receive emails and tweets of note we got an email we got a message from one of our patrons, one of our good friends, a top, top mind, a top contributor over at Girls Gone Canon's Discord. And honestly, no, I'm not being facetious, though. This is a great email. It's a great message. And Amy sent us this message.

It says, as a lot of us have been discussing throughout Girls Gone Canon's Catalin coverage, Catalin's story is largely about her finally admitting to herself how much society sucks and it failed her as a person before and during A Song of Ice and Fire. For Catalin, A Storm of Swords is the book where a lot of these thoughts finally swim up to the surface, building up to an explosive implosion at the Red Wedding. I think the scene in Catelyn 1 where she realizes what Hoster did to Lysa and her reaction demonstrates just how much she's changed from the beginning of A Game of Thrones and the tone for the rest of her story. I think Catelyn at the start of A Game of Thrones would have rationalized what Hoster did. In this chapter, she does not do that.

She acknowledges what he did was terrible, and that it deeply affected her sister her entire life. It's interesting Catelyn doesn't herself offer words of forgiveness to Hoster, because earlier in the story she did, she expresses to him he's done nothing that needs forgiveness. But now, after this chapter, she doesn't offer that comfort, which it's easy to say to a dying man. But she does ask Liza if she will forgive him. I see this as if she's asking herself if she can forgive Hoster. Can she forgive him for what he did to Liza, for what he did to her?

I don't see this entirely as Catelyn offloading that responsibility. see this entirely as Catelyn offloading that responsibility, I see it as her expressing to Lysa she understands her pain and is asking rhetorically whether they can forgive that society that caused all this pain. After all, she says and she thinks she wasn't expecting a reply. This beautifully connects with the end of the chapter with Edmyr. Yes, Catelyn, dazed into finding out her babies are dead, reacts poorly to Edmure, possibly preventing her from getting Sansa and Arya back even though she knows he had to do what he did. She's grieving, she's desperate. I'd argue her reaction is coming from a deeper frustration, right, that he had more freedom and control over

his life than she and Lysa ever did. She knows it's not his fault and loves him deeply, but we all take things out on the ones closest to us sometimes. Oh, I feel that. I'm sorry, Aliana. I love you, girl. Which is possibly how Stully, in a nutshell, our love. P.S. I think Catelyn asking Liza, rather than just asking herself more directly, is an example of how she can't acknowledge how badly the system, including those that she loves,

like her father, has failed her until the very end. XOXO, gossip Amy Allison. I mean, gossip girl. I mean, Amy Allison. You know, both of the letters that we received, and we'll get to the next one in a bit, end with XOXO, and I just want to flag that.

Gossip Girl's influence. love this idea that you're asking the question of can is is catelyn finding that she cannot forgive the society that has caused this big pain to herself and her sister also that you know she sees her brother as part of that right with her brother being able to have more of this freedom and control over his life and i think we'll find her wrestling with that question throughout the rest of the book, whether or not she can forgive this society, and it ultimately ends up, right, she never even gets a chance to decide that because it's all cut off before she can make that decision. And the harms that come to her, interestingly, come from someone else who finds they cannot forgive the insult that society has borne against his

family walter fray and so i guess she doesn't but when it comes to liza i just like i don't know if i don't think cat's offloading the responsibility either as you said but i just don't know that it's cat's place to decide and to give hoster that forgiveness because the harm was against Liza, not against Catelyn. So I guess she could offer him something, but I think ultimately she knows that whatever she gives him is empty and it's not hers and that's meaningful to her. And then when we come to the point of Edmure, I love the point that you made that she reacts badly to him, partially out of a frustration, perhaps even jealousy

of the freedom and control he has over his own life and besides that it's that Edmure has freedom but he also has power and control over Catelyn's life Catelyn's fate and more than that as we see in the orders that he gives towards the end of the chapter

the fates of Catelyn's children, whereas Catelyn has none she has no no freedom she has no power because in a huge gamble she sacrificed what little power society gave her and her freedom in the hope of reuniting with her daughters and edmure jeopardizes that she gave everything yeah i completely agree with this this is uh great aspects from both amy and from both you it's so hard just to even accept like any grieving you do feels half-assed you can do nothing and this chapter is absolutely as we'll talk about just like catelyn's lack of agency over everything i uh i definitely agree that like it's not catelyn's sin to forgive right like it's not she can't just go giving forgiveness out for something that like she can't she didn't suffer that uh we'll talk about it as we go along

it's not her place to forgive hoster it's not at all and that comes up very prominently in this chapter and it's like we've spent so long feeling bad for cadeline in these aspects right and that she was sold off like cattle in cersei right but cersei and liza's stories as both they're very they're villains in our minds when we come to some of the protagonists that deal with them and some of their attitudes but as you read this chapter and as you get to that book end at the end of this book where Liza reveals all to Littlefinger in front of Sansa who hopefully will understand some empathy when it comes her time to shine in the plot it's just heart-wrenching right like how Like, how could you not give sympathy to this woman and what she went through? It's very harsh.

this and we'll discuss that more later in this chapter that her sister like catelyn now has had freedom and power taken from her and even more so happiness catelyn at least had that right she had love liza did not and the very least thing i think that liza can have control over whether or not like withholding it heals her or not at least she has power over whether or not she forgives yeah and i think when you have no power over your life you take what you can get yeah that's you know uh did you did you watch in the heights the movie version i started it and then i got distracted and have not finished it. I get it. I get it. I'm not going to pressure you right now. I just got distracted.

Definitely finish it. There's this moment where Abuela, you know, she's the grandmother of the black. This woman who has, like, just given her life to, like, watching these children grow up to adults to succeed around her. And she has this moment where she talks about the little dignities that she takes. Right. And, and sometimes it really makes me think of these reveries and these

dignities that the woman in a song of ice and fire take when they have nothing. I mean, even Sarsi, right. Even Sarsi, when she has her moments of dignity that she grasps out of the thinnest of air,

because she has nothing else from these people that just like put her down. I think about that a lot. Just like the delivery. I've seen the bootleg version of this musical. I have not seen it in person in a theater. I don't know. Is that Bowwinkle? We don't know what that is,

but I have not seen in the Heights and theater. I've seen a few other HBO max. I have seen it in HBO. Yes. I've seen a few other hbo max i have seen it in hbo yes i've seen an hbo maximum yes the most maximum things but uh hbo maximum hbo maximus what am i doing here oh but i just think of that i do think of that just the little dignities and i think george is great about writing those little digniggandies that characters take. And in this chapter, it feels so unfair, right? That Catelyn to indulge in those tiny, tiny moments of dignity, just to make up for the big ones she's missing.

All the moments with her daughters she's missing. All the moments with her sons that she's missing. The moments at home she should be having. Think about all the pictures I've taken of my Sims. Having good moments in The Sims 4, you know? And Catalan doesn't get those moments. She doesn't get those photos of her and her children. Absolutely not.

None of it. None of the berry challenge. The not-so-berry challenge. I'm. The not-so-berry challenge. I'm sorry, not-so-berry challenge. My bad. My bad. We are a Sims family in this Girls Gone Canon house. I guess so.

Thank you, Amy, for sending us such a thoughtful email. It was wonderful, as per usual. But we do have another email. Another email to speak of. Yes. per usual. But we do have another email, another email to speak of. Yes, and this one comes from our friend Mary, whom you may all know from the Learned Hands podcast. And Mary starts with, hello, wonderful friends. I didn't connect with Kat when I first read the books, but the past couple years, she's become the POV that hits me most profoundly. Part of that is because I have kids now, and I'm trying to raise them amid COVID lul sob.

But one thing you both made me see is the mounting exhaustion in her chapters. And God, the way you cut to the raw core of her feelings about waiting and waiting, that nothing she can do is enough in like a thousand ways but she keeps going like a zombie even eyes emoji grimacing emoji not to get in feels but i relate to that a lot and so definitely katlyn needs therapy chloe you mentioned your feels for the good that won't come out, and gosh, it reminds me of Kat. I apologize for this song. Sorry.

Listening to your wonderful episode with Monero and your mini-sode with Not A Cast and generally thinking my merry thoughts, I've been meditating on the duty theme and its relationship to the house tully words in Kat's arc. So I wrote up these thoughts. Wallowing with Jamie in Riverrun's dungeons, it's a sense of duty

that shatters for Katlyn, and in particular her faith that doing what her family demanded of her with society deemed moral and right had any kind of reward. Jamie helps her let go of the belief that doing the right thing means, eventually, everything will work out for you and that if you just wait, you will get the good you deserve. So Kat, at her most desperate and reckless, embraces the lesson years of waiting taught her. Duty is the death of love, the real love we hold and cherish. She swore and swore for duty, for honor, but those promises didn't save her family, and they didn't fill her soul. Brandon chose duty, Ned chose duty, Rob chooses duty, Duty chooses Catelyn, and Catelyn, dutifully, accepts. But Duty and the love cat

wants? They're adversaries. Covered in shit, the cell tells her tells her duty is a thief that a chain shut your husband's soul stole his body from your bed and took your children from your arms relentless duty will demand you give until you forget yourself until you're a husk dead and walking catelyn waiting and waiting for the love she's supposed to have one is parched i mean she seemed pretty thirsty in that so um love delayed love denied calcified into resent what chance does cat have for life without her daughters can she even have this one hope she'll be good she'll do her duty if the gods who fail her again and again grant her this one mercy. But of course they do not, as far as she knows at least, and, well, we all know how that turns out. In that sense of almost

inhumanness and resentment that duty stole love from her, that hits me most in these chapters. As Maester Aemon tells Jon, we are only human and the gods have fashioned us for love. John, we are only human and the gods have fashioned us for love. So when the love you have left is stolen from you, what is left of your soul? XOXO. Gossip Mary.

No, Mace and Mary. It actually says Kat is the fucking saddest ever. Who needs Mace and Vyman? Yeah, she added that one line. Kat is the fucking saddest ever. That's your Gossip Girl sign-off. That's your Gossip Girl sign off. That's your PPS from Maester Mary from the Learn Hands podcast. Yes, you may recognize the Maester Mary from our Jonathan Snow episodes.

You know, I don't want it. Have to agree. Have to agree. Kat is the fucking saddest ever. Mary's not incorrect here. And I love that Mary brought some music into it. I love, uh, Learned Hands, and this isn't just because I'm a selfish bitch. Learned Hands really dug my brainy playlist. Yeah, I have a brainy playlist, but it's bold.

It's very grassroots, know it's very like bluegrass it's very like we're outlaws on the run fucking shit up in river run while everything's burning down but also like we won't admit we love each other until we have to break up kind of thing you know it's a it's a very complicated feeling is what i'm trying to convey and mary gets that mary that. So I respect that about Mary. I do have to comment. Mary brought up Rilo. Kylie, the good that won't come out song by them.

It's a great song. Musical break. Great song. One of my favorites. And it just has these lyrics, has this bridge where Jenny Lewis, the angel of all things, breaks into this moment. She's like, I think I'll go out and embarrass myself by getting drunk and falling down in the street. You say I choose sadness that it never once has chosen me.

Maybe you're right. And that moment specifically is just like such a deep, penetrating moment. Like you say I chose sadness that it never once chose me. Maybe you're right. And for Kat, I feel like that's like on point for this chapter right like cat is her sadness is so vast and so deep but like she doesn't even know how to convey liza's sadness when she realizes it when she realizes wow this woman is broken deeper and more scarred and more deeply than i am. That realization is so haunting and so deep.

And, you know, Rilo Kylie is a great artist, a great band to listen to, actually, if you like Kat. There's actually a song, if you're a Rilo Kylie fan, that you should check out called Better Son Slash Daughter. And I think it has some bearing as we move through this end of A Storm of Swords and as we break into maybe another book later, you know?

Mm-hmm. Interesting. Interesting. And yeah, I love this analysis and letter also from Mary. I didn't listen to as much Rilo Kiley. I, like, heard a few songs here and there you know back in the back in the aughts during i think you respect jenny lewis with your

whole mouth oh yeah no i definitely know some of the i know some of these songs but like yeah i was in um portion for foxes you know portion for foxes right anyway oh my god i definitely know better son daughter but i think what's really interesting that mary has done in this letter besides pointing out how brandon ned and rob all choose duty another stark s character does too and Mary brings this up explicitly in these connections of how John's story also really intertwines with duty and you know we don't mean this to be like cruel or anything but there are as as we've seen despite the obvious like ways that Catelyn and John's stories and lives touch one another and how they're both intertwined in the trauma that each one faces with Catelyn and the powerlessness within her house

and Jon and the withholding of love and that neglect and that exclusion as a child where all the duty comes from, right? Yes. Jon obviously pursues it at the expense of everything else. He also has love delayed, love denied, but isn't quite at resent yet, right? Where he chose duty over love and chose honor, right? And all of that over family because the watchman has to become his family. That's the death of duty.

Exactly. Oh, I'm sorry. That's from the show. Oh. exactly that's from the show oh well also and and like it's interesting to contrast them too because caitlin gets to easily choose duty right she can do all these things within that name and accept it because she was born into the confines of a position where duty A. is foisted upon her and B. I mean again she has power within that system

in many ways right whereas John is born outside of that system and is always going to be representative of how especially to Catelyn is representative to her of the way that one flouts duty and is and he internalizes this this idea that he is a mark of dishonor

so um yet again there's i think a way that their themes really intersect this chapter especially there feels like a bunch that they're like really intersecting at as far as John's feelings of what he owes especially to Corrin Halfhand or Morrin Halfhand and Catelyn to what she owes to her family and this chapter is like certainly a big moment for Catelyn that she's

hoisted on her own patire if you will. Oh my god I hate everything. Anyways so. Thank you to everyone for writing into us yeah if you want to send us your thoughts on a chapter please do we love emails eliana loves emails and reviews she she loves it she gobbles up that shit so send us an email over at girls gone canon at gmail.com c-a-n-o-n or you can send us a tweet or a dm over at girlsgonecanon at gmail.com, C-A-N-O-N. Or you can send us a tweet or a DM over at

girlsgonecanon at Twitter. But, but, you know, a lot of people are really expecting a lightning round, Eliana, during this episode. And I hate to break it to them, but it's not going to be a lightning round. It's going to be a whole storm

of swords. Wow, of swords! swords eventually got them swing cling swing swing no but first we will start back at a clash of kings right when we last left catalan this is catalan one a storm of swords and when we last left her it was in a clash of kings with theon five at his sister's entrance and request theon refuses to abandon his conquest in winterfell even though his nightmares say he probably should too and then that brings us to the blackwater boogaloo a lot of things happen especially in sansa five six and seven sansa tries to give hope to the ladies and kings landing against the horrors of A lot of things happen. Especially in Sansa 5, 6, and 7. Sansa tries to give hope to the ladies in King's Landing against the horrors of wildfire and war awaiting them.

Cersei is a really mean drunk. Sandor is also a goddamn mean and sad drunk. So is Dantos. Oh yeah, and thanks to the Tyrells, they all actually survived this one. Yes, and that pulls us into Davos 3. Things are bad. things are bad things are bad and then lastly in the blackwater boogaloo are tyrian 13 and 14 things are also bad and tyrian mislead a sortie patrick pain saves his ass though true we leave the blackwater Boogaloo to get into Daenerys V. At Zorro Zoan Zoxus's warnings and an assassination attempt by a manticore, Dany concedes to leave Qarth forever with some new men in arms.

And then we have Arya X. Arya uses Jaqen's coin and her own quick thinking to escape Harrenhal. Sansa 8. Sansa is set aside to her happiness, but she also is given her own gift of death. Hmm. Theon 6. Ramsay punches Theon's dumb face.

It's true. Tyrion, 15. Tyrion wakes after the Blackwater, missing just a little bit of his nose. That's a bit. Jon, 8. Jon must play the role of the betrayer. Of a craven murderer damned. That was pretty good.

You did pretty good. Thank you. Thank you. That brings us to the end of A Clash of Kings. Brand 7. It was not dead. Just broken. Like me, he thought.

I'm not dead either. Ugh. Wow. That's hurtful. I'm in a little pain so take us into a storm of swords yeah we come into storm and it's a storm

because the sky is crying it's crying swords our eyes are also crying swords um the prologue Chet has lived his ultimate incel lifestyle here on the wall but now it's time for something new betrayal but first the others sell lifestyle here on the wall. But now it's time for something new. Betrayal. But first,

the others. Jamie won. Jamie considers breaking his oath, but instead he marvels at Brienne's sense of duty. Yeah, he does. You know what I mean? He marvels.

He marvels. You know what I mean? He's like, oh god, that duty. Oh my god. He's like, maybe fucking my sister is the only one who never was in the flex. But if fucking Brienne was the flex, Jamie asks. Actually, though.

Well, speaking of fucking other women, I do want to highlight, because this is kind of these these are important to cat's storyline they come up in jamie's chapter and this is essentially what happens right after the last catlin chapter in the clash of kings where i mean these are these two paragraphs basically are all of it of they'd all done a deal of vowing back in that cell jamie most of all that was lady catlin's price for loosing him she had laid the point of the big wenches sword against his heart and said swear that you will never again take up arms against

stark nor tully swear that you will compel your brother to honor his pledge to return my daughter safe and unharmed swear on your honor as a knight on your honor as a lannister on your honor as a knight, on your honor as a Lannister, on your honor as a sworn brother of the Kingsguard. Swear it by your sister's life, and your father's, and your son's, by the old gods and the new, and I'll send you back to your sister. Refuse, and I will have your blood. He remembered the prick of the steel through his rags as she twisted the point of the sword. I wonder what the High Septon would have to say about the sanctity of oaths sworn while dead drunk, chained to a wall, with a sword pressed to your chest. Not that Jaime was truly concerned about that fat fraud or the gods he claimed to serve.

He remembered the pale Lady Catelyn had kicked over in his cell, a strange woman to trust her girls to a man with shit for honor, though she was trusting him as little as she dared she's putting her hope in tyrian not in me perhaps she is not so stupid after all he said aloud that feels fitting right like i keep like accidentally coming out as a tyrian stan on here like slightly like not in like a have you noticed noticed it lately? Is it like a problem? Yeah. I don't mean it.

It's just like, I think Tyrion is an example, right? Like I think, exactly. Like I think he's being made an example of in the very end of the story, hopefully. And that like he is, you know, like I personally as a half shitty person too, I get it. I get it, Tyrion. I don't know.

I'm glad Kat understands capitalism going on here. Personally, as a half shitty person, too. I get it. I get it, Tyrion. I don't know. I'm glad Kat understands capitalism going on here. Like that she had Jaime and she let him go on purpose. And that like, Jaime also understands it. She's putting her hope in Tyrion. She knows Jaime is not maybe to be, I wouldn't say trusted. It's just like, if there are other people you can put more hope within other people who you know they they just have more follow-through i think jamie has followed

through just on the wrong things most of the time and it's into i think it's funny that he points out like i wonder what the high septon would say about the sanctity of o's and stuff and that that she ends right by having him swear all these other vows after he told her, you know what I am really bad at? Vows. Vows are really hard. And she's like, let's just throw on a few more. Whatever. Fuck it. I mean, what is a few more, right? Yeah, what is a few more? Like, I think that's part of it, right? That's part of the, you know know the absurdity of duty and honor that we start seeing here in a storm of swords not only do they all find out that it fails them they find out it's a farce so again why not just pile on a few more if they're all meaningless anyway yeah i mean for janie it's

kind of a lart right like that she's keep going like okay why not more absolutely it's all gonna blow up in your dumb faces soon goddamn highborns mostly catelyn who dies it's a bummer yeah mostly catelyn who dies which yeah i mean that's that's it that's the storm of swords overview that's my input for the catelyn one the storm of swords overview she dies at the end of her povs of this book uh she also comes back at the end of the book um that's a good call that's a really great call that's she does come back that is what she does great call aliana and thank you bring us into our catalin one in a storm of Swords and A Storm of Swords Catalin overview. Catalin 1 is it a beginning to

an end? No punishment fits this weeping mother's crime as we open A Storm of Swords in her ancestral home. Catalin's lost its dream. She's lost all her father, her children, her brother, her very little rights,

no cat rights, and when her brother insists children her brother her very little rights no cat rights and when her brother insists that her crime is covered up her agency gets further removed the woman breaks i'm sorry everyone i'm watching a lot of secession lately so that's a new thing we're gonna see a lot of analysis it's kind of like that maybe the tolliesys are the Pierce family you know the Lannisters are the Roy family but something that sticks out during Catelyn's A Storm of Swords overview is Catelyn's choice right uh this is the beginning of A Storm of Swords and what a book what a structure what a story but Catelyn's choice that gets gets taken away from her, right? Catelyn, in a clash of kings, in her last chapter, chose to set Jaime free, to take what little power she

had left and get her children back. And that gets taken away from her in Catelyn 1. Every moment of her story gets rewritten by Edmure. He rewrites her history, her story, while her daughters are busy being beat and suffering and trying to get back home. Both daughters, right? Arya and Sansa. They're being forged in the fires of the same society Catelyn has weathered. And they're also actively being erased from that society.

And that's what she's trying to prevent from happening. But it's too late. It's too late and everything is falling apart. As we see through the rest of Catelyn's POV chapters. I mean, her making this choice. I don't think that was the one thing, the one domino that sets everything off. There were all these little things falling apart. And it's all just slipping through her

fingers and more and more you know every chapter it's like can my surprise pikachu be even more surprise pikachu and i think that's how katlin feels on the inside can her little pikachu mouth get bigger as she's more and more and more is like oh my god what is happening? This is all not going according to Keikaku. Oh my god. I'm going to show you according to Keikaku. It's true, though, and I'd like to see that photoshopped. Just want to put that out there. The gif of, like, Catlin 1, small Pikachu mouth catlin two wider by pov by pov well the

last the last one is uh beheading the throat is slit i thought you were talking about her beheading jamie's cock i was like interesting that's a fanfic no No, I was talking about Pikachu. Poor Pikachu. Yeah, I'm sad for Catelyn in this chapter because I feel like the time for caution was prior to now. You know, Clash of Kings was the time to apply caution, and I'm going to be honest, she did try in a Game of Thrones, but Clash of Kings proved she had to keep going faster and stronger than everyone else and here we are in storm and she's playing every card that she holds in catelyn one it starts off with sir desmond grell had served house tully all his life he had been a squire when catelyn was

born a knight when she learned to walk and ride and swim. Master at arms by the day that she was wed. He had seen Lord Hoster's little cat become a young woman. A great lord's lady. Mother to a king. And now he has seen me become a traitor as well. Great, great strong opening. As always, from George. And I just love those two lines. Oh,

it shows the progression of Sir Desmond Grell's life and alongside it, you know, he did his duty, right? And she's marking all his life against the big milestones of hers as though he exists only in juxtaposition to her, which I guess technically, narratively, yes, that's true. And then that twist at the end, right, of after not only did she do all the things she was supposed to do, she exceeded expectations by becoming mother to a king. And then finally, she has become a traitor. Usually you think they're going to end up as crone, but she becomes a traitor. And it actually, again, reminds me a little bit of daenerys right she's supposed to go maiden mother dosh khalid and she's like

no i'm gonna do my own thing now i'm gonna still be a mother but now mother of dragons catelyn is indeed that mother of wolves right here um it's so sad because like i just can see like you know growing up with family friends who expect something else from you and think something of you and here she is proving them all wrong and yeah desmond especially has a different role now edmure had named him castling while edmure had gone off to fight. So he can't deal with Cat's crime alone. He brings Eutherides Wayne for moral support.

She thinks they have given their lives to my father's service and I've repaid them with disgrace. Both men express their condolences at the alleged loss of Bran and Rickon. They empathize with Kat's mother madness. They attempt to make excuses for her.

They imply she was ignorant of the implications, but Kat insists she knew the cost. She points out they have to punish her, lest they are accused of treason too. So at least she's looking out for them, right? She understands how her class is functioning here. But I will say that all of this is, of course, the morning after from Freeing Jamie. And it's a great segue from the last chapter and how it all fits together structurally, because last chapter we were introduced to the true story behind the deaths of Rickard and Brandon Stark. to the true story behind the deaths of Rickard and Brandon Stark. And interestingly, I think I see a lot of parallels, right, between what Brandon Stark did and also what Rickard Stark did and why I think that story was important to bring up to show why Catelyn does what she does. And then, you know, how it leads into here, because Brandon Stark running to King's Landing, and all of it also ending in disaster, mirrors Catelyn's choice

to do something reckless, treasonous, because Brandon does a really gallant, foolish, last-ditch effort to save his family, his sister, when she is imprisoned by royals. then of course his dad has to come down because he also gets in prison and you know their family like actually loves each other and that's exactly the same sort of if you will foolishness or here they're calling it mother's madness that leads caitlin to freeing jamie but it's not called mother's madness when brandon does it nor when rickard does it granted of course Brandon I mean he essentially also committed treason because he's going in there and he's yelling I want to kill the crown prince and I I think that's that's a pretty explicit like admission of treason you know that that's pretty

bad out loud and the but again uh yeah right the motivation though behind both is the same the desire to save your family members that you love and as uh the folks over on not a cast pointed out there's a similar i think motivation though a little bit different to what rickard carstark does where his is born out of also this sort of desperation but this grief and and vengeance right is that also madness then they don't seem to call it that, but there's of course a difference between murder and whatever. That's just hot-headedness.

And also I think, you know, what's at play here is because Catelyn brings it up multiple times throughout this chapter, or other people do, and she questions it. She's like, mother's madness? Was I mad to do this?

Or was it deeply actually very rational? Anyways, the acts that women or that mothers do when are equated to madness, when these kinds of like ridiculous spur of the moment things are expected of men, as it was of Brandon, or for example, Jamie's treason where he kills the king. Interestingly, that's never called madness. That's, that's just treason. I mean, it really was. That's just hot-headedness. It was. And, I mean, it was treason also. But it was right, probably. But the assumption of women being soft of head when they go against laws

or these unspoken societal laws or the explicit legal ones and also all these in-betweens of gender expectations, I think this phrase of mother's madness is going to maybe come up again later in the story but with a kind of different meaning with as we brought up earlier denarius's story right she's a character that is seen as a mother and she's probably going to have this narrative of madness foisted onto her by not only the men around her but probably the whole country so you know when i think of women and the mother's madness

and this kind of plot right like this kind of story carrying forward it makes me think of helena targaryen from the dance of the dragons right who lost her children who had to watch them die in front of her it makes me think of helena being a catalan type figure kept alive to see these horrors in front of her that she really didn't ask for necessarily some people may claim she asked for them it's an interesting point to bring up also because i mean helena right is characterized afterwards with this this great grief maybe psychotic break and i kind of wonder makes me think of that it also makes me wonder is mother's madness a phrase we should be thinking about in regards to liza i think so i i do think so and this chapter might be my like liza defense squad chapter just because

like it's so fucking sad dude it's awful yeah i would hope that in like my worst moments anyone would offer me any thought of decency you know i hope anyone would spare me the thoughts i think about liza because like i've had some shitty moments i haven't always looked great to the public but poor liza she didn't deserve this no one deserves that you brought up earlier like interestingly you're starting to feel much more sympathetic towards tyrian i think liza and tyrian they're part of the same thesis in this book right of trying to understand like you know sometimes sometimes horrible things happen to people and as as you pointed out earlier the person breaks and and yeah tyrian that that's

part of why he seems so sympathetic so So we watch that journey through him. And here with Lysa, it's more of we're starting to get that background of why she is the way she is. It's told in a different temporality, but similar, similar ideas. Yes. Well, the two balk at putting Catelyn in irons. And they're like, what if we put you in this super cush room? And she's like, what if you just let me be in my dad's room where he's, you know, dying? You can put a guard on the room.

I promise I won't run away. And then Eutherides decides to give one last lecture. He's like, Desmond has set Robin Riger to retrieve or kill Jamie Lannister. Don't you worry. All your crime will soon be gone. Catelyn then prays for Brienne's strength. She had done all she could do. Nothing remained but to hope. They move all her things into her father's room, even her canopy bed. Hoster's bed is moved to face the rivers, and when she enters, she goes to the balcony to overlook the riverlands

the rivers, and when she enters, she goes to the balcony to overlook the riverlands down the river where the tumble stone joins the red fork. She's thankful the rivers are empty because it means Robin Riger is not returning with her prisoner. I had to call out this language here, it was very sad. Her things were moved into her father's bedchamber, dominated by the great canopied bed she'd been born in its pillars carved in the shapes of leaping trout it just felt so eloquent right the bed she was born in next to the bed that he's going to die in it makes me think about how minissa birthed her in that bed right with those leaping trouts in those corners minissa was the bed he truly dies in, right? The bed he died in back then.

She's gone, and now Catlin hopes any semblance of her can help him carry on to the afterlife. That's such a great way to tie Catlin's life and story together, and that of her family's. It also just sounds

like a cool bed. It's beautiful, right? Yeah. Oh, to fuck between leaping trout. Oh my god. Catelyn wonders if her father is conscious enough to know that she's there, or if it's comfort to him at all. And she wonders how Hoster would react to what she did. If he would do the same, had she and Liza been captured by their enemies?

Or would Hoster condemn her and also call it Mother's Madness? And I think it's an interesting question. We don't get an exact answer. And we are going to get, though, more of maybe how Hoster might have approached this, some of his thought process. Information to inform what he might have decided, though, through this so great question cat timely one timeless if you will right and it doesn't like increase in that feeling because the room smells like death like it does not smell good there everything's getting more depressing by the moment. Catelyn is mourning for her sons and Ned, and she's praying, and she says, It is a monstrous, cruel thing to lose a child.

At that exact moment, though, interestingly, Hoster says, Tansy! Cat's like, I'm not Tansy, Catelyn, your daughter. And as Hoster silently, but not so silently, begs for her forgiveness, speaking of the blood and the Tansy, Catelyn realizes, could there have been another woman in her father's life? Some village maiden he had wronged when he was young, perhaps. Could he have found some comfort in some serving wench's arms after mother died?

It was a queer thought. Unsettling. Suddenly she felt as though she had not known her father at all. Who is Tansy, my lord? Do you want me to send for her father? Where would I find the woman? Does she still live? Lord Hoster groaned

dead his hand groped for hers you'll have others sweet babes true born others katelyn thought has he forgotten that ned is gone Is he still talking to Tansy? Or is it me now? Or Liza? Or Mother? What a mood. When he coughed, the sputum came up bloody. He clutched her fingers. Be a good wife, and the gods will bless you.

Sons. True-born sons. The sudden spasm of pain made Lord Hoster's hand tighten. His nails dug into her hand, gave a muffled scream. Ah, what good balance, right? Starting the book with Tansy, I mean, Jamie was there, we don't count him. But starting the book with Tansy and ending it with Sansa Seven, right? We have in Sansa Seven, Liza.

Tears ran down her aunt's puffy red face. I gave you my maiden's gift. I would have given you a son too, but they murdered him with moon tea. With Tansy and mint and wormwood, a spoon of honey, a drop of pennyroyal. It wasn't me, I never knew. I only drank what father gave me. Ugh, it's such desperation and sadness, poor Liza. And of course, it's indirectly setting up Jane Westerling,ling right who shows up in the very next catalan chapter it wasn't her she never knew she only drank what her mother gave her and that line right that could he have found comfort in some serving wench's arms after mother died

it's so devastating that here catalan is realizing, what if we never know our fathers? Right? What if we never know our family? We start with Hoster's mystery at the very front of the story, but we end with Tywin being found in comfort in some serving wench's arms, quote unquote. Right? In Shae's arms, idolizing their their parents not knowing that truth behind them what a strong theme in both lannister and tully during a storm of swords for catalan at this front of a storm of swords and just like not a cast recently discussed on their first catalan one a storm of swords

episode they discussed that mirror to cersei right you start a feast for crows with cersei the same as catelyn realizing my dead father i never actually knew what the truth was before him absolutely and catelyn finds that it's a much darker truth than she'd expected and i feel like it's interesting because catelyn is ready to accept it as true, though she's not sure who her father is anymore in that moment. But she's not necessarily ready to accept it as fine. But she can accept it as true because of her own experiences that hammer home to her that even the most honorable of men break their marriage vows and have bastards, allegedly.

And whereas Cerce is too unwilling to let go of that image of her father, she wants it hidden that this ever happened, that Tywin ever was in the bed of another serving wench or was ever in the bed with Shae, whereas Catelyn tries to find Tansy in order to seek answers. And Catelyn, after having everything else about the world shattered before her, is ready to finally shatter that last lie that, to be honest, actually most people shatter during adolescence slash early adulthood. And I mean, I guess she's only 32, but most people get to this point much earlier, is all I'm saying.

And that's the lie of our parents being perfect superhumans, right? She's learning that her parents are imperfect. Her parents are human, they make mistakes, and unfortunately, Hoster made huge mistakes. Mistakes that, like the mistakes of many parents, are deeply hurtful to their children, which, as you said, Chloe, ties nicely with the end of this book. Not the Stoneheart part, and not just the beginning of A Feast for Crows, but with Tyrion, right? He undergoes the same dilemma as he comes upon his own revelation about his father. Not just, you know, finding out that his father was sleeping with women or other women still, but that his father, as Hoster did to Liza, has committed a great hurt against him, you know, amongst the many other hurts that

Tyrion has endured at his father. But, you know, and whereas Cat's discovery may be considered the anagnorisis within the terminology of Aristotle's poetics, when it comes to Greek tragedies, meaning the movement from ignorance to knowledge in which the true standing of things is revealed especially of a person's nature unlike tyrian's discovery unlike his anagnorisis of taiwan catlin's with hoster is not followed by the peripatia right the reversal of fortune and so catlin's story never actually gets to a point in which catharsis is possible there is no purification of the story, and with satisfaction and happiness denied her in life, her narrative

instead seeks that story catharsis in the continued afterlife with revenge. And I don't think you can really purify things with a you know, more death of innocence, but that's the point, I think.

That's so well said, because it's like, how could she? There's no movement to be made at this point, right, with catharsis. It's over. This is... Closure's gone. Well, you know, that happens from the whole murder thing. Yeah, it happens. We'll talk about that as we get into A Storm of Swords.

But well said, Eliana. Maester Vyman comes in to give Hoster more drugs to put him to sleep. Cat discusses who Tansy may have been with him. And Cat comes up with one possibility with Vyman. But then it turns out the woman's name is Violet. She was a woman that used to come to the village often, to the city often, to Riverrun. Vyman apologizes. He's like, I can only talk a limited amount.

I'm not really actually allowed to talk to you, by the way. Haha. Fearing that Cat might use her position and history with Riverrun's folk for more hijinks. Which, of course, reminds me a little bit of A Arienne's chapters, which we've covered, right? She wasn't allowed to talk to the girls very much. They wouldn't speak back. They stayed silent. All the serving maids that came to her.

And Cersei as well, later on, right? She trades out her servants daily. She doesn't, but they do for her because they can't trust that motherfucker. And I respect that about cersei you know katalin wonders after what her father truly thinks you know past past the exhaustion and the whole death and old age thing she thinks later at one point must it all come back to blood father who was this woman and what did you do to her that needs so much forgiveness which that's not too far offline with those arianne point of views right wondering what her father's scheming really means grieving the warrior she thought maybe he once was

and i do have to say that i love what vymanond says to her when she's like, was it news of Rob? And he hesitates, right? He's like, yes, my lady, it was. I can't tell you, though. If I was a tinfoil theorist, which once upon a time I might have been, I'd bet Rob was like sending word ahead of time, right? Like he's hinting, hey, I fucked another chick. It's over. But now I, an older human, I'm like, oh, no, he's hinting, hey, I fucked another chick, it's over. But now, I,

an older human, am like, oh no, it's just phrasing. It's just phrasing and Desmond's like, bitch, if I tell you I'm so fucked and I'm gonna get murdered. Yeah, he tells her a bit more later, but I like what you're pointing out with the mirror to Arianne's POV is because

not only is Arianne grieving the warrior she thought her father was, I think you also see Arianne's POV is because not only is Arianne grieving the warrior she thought her father was, I think you also see Arianne has her own revelations of who her father really was, but it goes the other way, and then they become closer for a moment, versus Kat and Hoster and those

revelations putting distance between them. But I find Maester of Iron Men so funny. You know, I think that he actually ends up talking to her unlike the ones in arianne and circe's chapters which kind of shows the importance and the respect that catelyn commands and that the tallies have in reveron and maybe they also give and show that same respect to the household and that gives her some like sort of proximity to them except for that time in the

dungeons last chapter where she was kind of mean to that man um but maester vyman like divulges a lot to her throughout the chapter maybe he's like lonely and really wants someone to gossip with but i also think it's pretty hilarious because catelyn when she first arrived at riverrun she's like yeah i don't really know maester vyman and i don't really know Maester Vymon, and I don't really know if I'd trust him. I really liked my Maester from my childhood, Maester Kim. But Vymon proves to be a pretty decent ally, and I kind of find him just funny.

Kind of like Pylos. He's kind of like my new Maester Pylos. They're all interchangeable to me. It does remind me a bit of Pylos. He makes me think of Theomar, too, that tells them about the promise in the north and i do think like vyman is just so fresh and new right like he feels straight off the citadel and i think a lot of people have vyman theories of like what he could be up to

maester theories right i i love this what we get later with Jaime's chapters. It was Riverrun's old maester, with a message clutched in his lined and wrinkled hands. So Vymon's not young, I'm wrong. Vymon's face was as pale as the new fallen snow. I know, Jaime said, there's been a white raven from Citadel. Winter's come. No, my lord, the bird was from King's Landing. I took the liberty. I did not know he held the letter out so vyman reads the incest letter later on as we've already kind of covered in the jamie

chapters and he's like wait what like holy shit the tollies were crazy but they weren't this crazy right and i feel for vyman he has to research tansy he has to research the jamie shit he has to deliver the brand rickon news he gets seasoned really fast right like he also had to deal with jamie often in that dungeon what a what a poor motherfucker like i feel for maester viman that's true yeah i mean he has to deliver the news. Also, he has to, like, shepherd this old, like, he has to shepherd this man into death. He gets here and he has to,

like, do all of this. So that's a great point. He's kind of just thrown into it and uwu, Maester Vymon. I like that. That reminder of, he's just like, wait, what? I'm so sorry. I opened your DMs.

Did not mean to know that you suck your sister's clit, but since we are here. I'm sorry I saw your sex. They were good sex, though. You had great rhythm. Anyway. Well, when Maester Vymon leaves, Cat goes back on the

balcony to, again, look for sails. She watches a lot, she sees a raven, and then when Maester Vyvan returns, he's like, there was no woman named Tansy. Cat asks after the raven if there's word regarding Jaime, and nicely prods slash guilts Vyvan into telling her what it said. He's hesitant, but, you know, he folds. He tells her that Tywin has left the Riverlands, Robb is fine saying it's no cause for concern catlin though is concerned me the reader on a reread i am concerned and as she presses vyman finally it's like can't talk literally origin not to got to go bye yeah it's kind of a really sad, like, fleeting conversation because she's also highlighting it all right now in her mind with, like, could father have had a bastard?

Question mark. And she's, like, really worried about it. She's like, this woman, Tansy, did he fuck her? What a haunting thought to have right now while she's being told of the truth of where her son is, where Edmure is and it's honestly just kind of sad and exhausting that here's catalan's book three plot and it's the ghost of a past investigation right it's the same thing she's already tried to figure out with

a man and his bastard why does it always come down to this, she thinks, a man and their bastard. But here, the overarching thought of the chapter is that it's not actually the man and his bastard that she thinks it is, right? It's Peter and his bastard. That's the answer to his problems here. The answer to Catalin's

problems is Peter and his dead bastard. Yeah. And Liza, right? All of it, a lot of it, yeah, does come back to Peter, but I guess a lot of it is in the way, if you think about it, Brandon and Hoster. It's all a cycle, as she said.

What happens when people get vengeance? Never ends. And then Hoster mumbles again in his sleep, pleading for forgiveness as he remembers the blood. Catlin is, for obvious reasons, disturbed. Blood, she thought. Must it all come back to blood?

Father, who was this woman, and what did you do to her that needs so much forgiveness? Well, Hoster broke the house words, alright, he put duty and honor before family all at the expense of that last one which should be the first one it's true you're not wrong speaking of family that night, Catelyn has nightmares about her children when she wakes, she wonders if her father had a bastard on this tansy

which, again, it seems weird to her seems out of character edmure though caitlin thinks she's like that motherfucker's had so many bastards this stupid he spurts that boy every day she thinks yeah and she she does start to get warmer for what it's worth she wonders if tansy could be a nickname for someone maybe liza like cat was a nickname for her especially because hosters mix them up now as she's noticed and finally alone with her thoughts she has the potential to work through one of the many mysteries clues keep popping up but then she gets interrupted but she does go through her memories and she's like Liza has many miscarriages two in the Erie

three in King's Landing but none in Riverrun ellipsis unless both Liza and Kat were married the same day to Jon Arryn and Ned Stark respectively you know that everyone and Liza was so jazzed about her moon blood not coming she was like we're gonna have heirs they're gonna be more brothers than cousins we have this line she was so happy Liza once once upon a time Liza Liza knew happiness it's pretty sad it's pretty sad Liza did get her period eventually though and Catelylin assumed that liza's period was just late which does happen that does happen that is real but now she's questioning if was liza actually pregnant was it a miscarriage because next caitlin remembers giving her baby

rob to liza to hold which ends with liza sobbing. Very confusing, I think, encounter for Catelyn. And then she's like, huh, Liza's marriage was arranged real fast, huh? John Arryn had no heir between, you know, his two wives not bearing kids and his nephew dying with Cat's ex-fiance, then John's cousin dying at the Battle of the Bells. Liza was maybe the young wife that he needed that was proven fertile then. I'm sorry, but it's like, it's so sad. It's devastatingly sad that like, she gets a chance to hold Rob and all she could do is cry. You know, it's awful. the language and the pain here is

so prominent this realization from Catelyn that she's like oh wow this is my sister and her own her entire life is ruined right like there's this line uh and it reminds me this is from the passage above here and it reminds me a lot of some of the stuff we actually see later in the book she and her sister had been married on the same day and left in their father's care when their husbands had ridden off to rejoin robert's rebellion afterward when their moon blood did not come at the accustomed time. Liza had gushed happily of the sons she was certain they carried. Your son will be heir to Winterfell and mine to the Eyrie. Oh, oh, they'll be the best of friends, like your Ned and Lord Robert. They'll be more brothers than cousins, truly, I just know it.

She was so happy. A lot of the pain in in that language a lot of what comes through now in that feels kind of prominent in a dance with dragons uh when bran has a vision of his father at winterfell in the godswood right younger with less gray in his hair his head bowed let them grow up close as brothers with only love between them he prayed and let my lady wife find it in her heart to forgive you know catalyn and liza never had that chance either that same john snoke kind of chance to to mend their families together to protect each other to stay safe imagine if they had had that chance yeah but after you know years and years of that hurt of the miscarriage and i think dealing with the long-term hurt that i think probably just calcified right for for eliza um and i'll talk about that a bit more um it makes sense right by the time she has a child, she's no longer invested in having

those cousins grow up like brothers. She pulls away from the family and isolates entirely. And, you know, I didn't realize this until you've read these aloud at the end. But first of all, yes, we see that it ends up being true, of john and ned's children so we get a sort of hint right uh with that with that echoing language of cousins that they are in fact cousins and not brothers or half brothers but in that last line and let my lady wife find it in her heart to forgive. Find that interesting with the way that Catelyn's story goes. Will Lady Stoneheart be able to find it in her heart to forgive? And I don't think so. I mean, one of Ned's prayers came true,

so perhaps the next one can. We'll find out. And, you know, yes, though this pregnancy of Liza's slash the miscarriage was likely, I think this one, right? Because it already happened before the abortion of the pregnancy from Peter. This one was likely from Jon Ar Aaron's, I guess, seed. And I think there's something to be said here of, you know, thinking more about those bastards, right? Especially her sister's bastard, because I think, you know,

Catlin Hall Monitor Stark, who's just played by the rules of duty and honor all this time and has frowned upon bastards because of, you know, her own husband forcing her to live with his societally perceived blight upon both of their duties and honors on both of them, right? And she has to, like, see that all the time, which Catelyn has greatly internalized all of this time. She's now reckoning with the other side of all of this as she begins to discard duty and honor, because she's taken it as a given this whole time, right? That men will take their pleasure where they will, that they will have bastards, and that it is perhaps even the right of highborn men to have bastards, which is why the first conclusion

that she comes to is that Hoster is the one who had a lover and a bastard. But we find out it's something else, because now the question is, all right, so highborn men get to have bastards, they get to have their bastards be public. What about highborn women? Do they have a right to pleasure and desires as men do do they have a right to keep and have their bastards whether at all to keep their children um and especially in the public sphere and what right do mothers have to keep their children again we brought up oberyn in a previous chapter what right do they have over their own body? And when Catelyn later cannot even claim, you know, that it was her right to bargain for the lives of her daughter.

She says it was my right and Edmure says it wasn't. So what rights do mothers have? Yeah. And as we'll get to as we keep moving forward like it's obvious that's a fucking excuse right because it turns out it's not just mothers it's just they're like what if women didn't have rights anyways yeah so i think she's wrestling with that question when it comes to bastardy she's like i don't yeah uh i i don't know and last, finally, after all these other mysteries that keep popping up in Catelyn's chapters that she never has the time to think about, Catelyn has solved one of them.

I'm so glad we got the time to sit. Now that she's in prison, she has time to go through this. She says to her sleeping father, I know what you did a bunch of summers ago. Oh my god. For Johnaron to buy the strength of house tully i don't know if you've seen those movies but that is actually how it feels like every single one i've ever seen i've seen like three of them whatever the first three were but every one i've seen it's that that's literally been how it felt like i know what you did a bunch of summers ago so great recollection atliata uh thank you and and this

quote especially as her own daughter sansa is about to be you know married right wedded in holy matrimony oh yeah she thinks this which i'm sure sansa is learning she was no longer an innocent bride with a head full of dreams she was a widow a traitor a grieving mother and wise wise in the ways of the world ah this is like her entire being in comparison to motherless bastard damned right yeah, for the very first time, Kat's titles, her rights, being a mother, they've all been stripped away. They don't fucking matter anymore. This is the closest she's ever been

to being a bastard herself, right? Like, her only power taken from her. Not just power, but roles, right? She doesn't know what part to play anymore and she's just swimming yeah treading treading she is treading she is treading and as we discussed last chapter with monero and and as our friends at not a cast have said there's something to be said here also

of this very i think lenient sentence right that catelyn receives when juxtaposed with the punishment that carstark gets though again murder is different as not a cast points out when she loses all all of these freedoms and power and and also the deaths right versus the execution of the sex workers slash um also those women who slept with the Lannisters. But when we look at the picture of these brutalized bodies of women who slept with whoever they wanted alongside the stolen agency of Lysa over her own body, and then finally also put all of that next to Catelyn's duty and her stolen freedom and loss of power, I think that rather than them being different from one another, they are all part of the same continuum of patriarchal control over women's bodies because

it's a society in which all of them are property to be used by men for men's desires, never for women's own wants or needs. And lowborn women may be allowed some more sexual freedom. To some extent, they might be allowed to make a living off their sexuality, but only if it's with apparently the right men on the right side of the war or whatever, whoever has power in that moment in the power structure. And even then, they are still subject to highborn men who may come and rape and assault them whenever however they like with no consequences as we see from gregor clagain or for the boltons and again as caitlin assumes oh it's normal for imposter to have had a mistress this is this is

accepted and it exists within the same continuum uh aslin and Liza, because lowborn women within this society exist so that men may take their pleasures of them, and lowborn women suffering and the eventual policing of their sexuality, again, when they lay with the wrong men, their objectification exists so that the value and objectification of highborn women can be there at the lowborn women's expense and the policing of highborn women's sexuality their purity before marriage for the highborn men to continue their lines and caitlin has lived through this narrative by doing her duty perfectly she has never once considered it considered it until now when she's like, well, I don't have a fucking duty anymore. She's bought into the system of injustice for the little power that it has afforded her, that she's been able to navigate. And I mean, we see her use it right in the dungeon. And she's losing all of that now. But the violence exists on the other side of the

spectrum, just differently, as Liza is forced to abort a child so that she may be more marriageable so she can maintain the illusion of purity and same as the objectification of low-born women who are discarded when they no longer fit those roles Liza then is sold off as coin right to John Aaron because of her proven fertility the lenience that catelyn experiences compared to the women we see in jamie's chapter that's not a flaw of the system it's a feature it is inherently baked in that's the whole point yeah by which women are reduced to bodies to live and die to birth or to not birth to use or discard all at men's whims. I'm so glad

you said this because that is it's frustrating, right? Like as you go into Cersei's arc, as you enter a feast for crows, afok, afok, a little levity for the moment. No, it's frustrating, right?

Because it becomes about like tywin and the woman he was found with and and cersei hiding that and that's what this feels like for catelyn but the woman that hoster is hiding is her own sister right like her own sister that she could have sworn to you just yesterday lived the exact same that she did but maybe just maybe she didn't live the same as catalan lived maybe and yeah it it's so hard because we get all these so beautifully sad lines about liza and what she gave up and her innocence and who the girl she was but that's why they were loveless right unwillingly loveless Liza needed warmth as Catelyn says she she's not like that she needs warmth she needs to be able to be grown and she needs you know just like when you grow a

chia pet like one that your best friend eliana gives you um you got to germinate that shit you need some warmth yeah and i mean you were able to try again in life right you were able to start over with new chia pet liza didn't get to do that you know i i know that you had a chia pet before in your life that that went wrong and liza doesn't get to do that not everyone gets that kind of love in their life though if somebody like doesn't care if you like fuck someone and have to abort the child because your father makes you and it's all this trauma like not everybody gets lucky and has a person that would support you through all that aka you like liza didn't have that Kat for whatever

reason obviously she had her own issues of birthing out northern fucking heirs but like Kat said you know we were sisters we were everything to each other but for some reason trauma and life pulled them apart and Kat was unable to fulfill her half of that sisterly duty and that guilt shows right and the next morning it shows so much that cat decides to write liza a letter she writes about the alleged death of her own sons and then about their father's upcoming death and how it's time for him to go and she uses a lot of fighting metaphors right right? She says, It's time for father to lay down his sword and shield. It's time for him to rest. Yet he fights on grimly.

Will not yield. It is for your sake, I think. He needs your forgiveness. She says it's dangerous, but Liza should try to make the trip, or at least write him, so he can die in peace. You know, we talked about what Amy Allison brought into this up top.

Kat doesn't necessarily offer him forgiveness, right, in this passage. Because it's not her forgiveness. This is not her war to fight. All she can do is provide swords. The thing her sister never did. But. Damn. Look, I'm just saying it's true.

Maybe that's why she didn't. but she won't get a reply not in this amount of time it's so sad you know i think about my father my father comes from a family of eight children nine children uh one passed away early on so it became eight but it comes from a family of eight children and my grandmother passed away and within two years my grandfather passed away because that's how it goes they say they they say that usually you know the other can't live while the other survives but two years later their entire family eight siblings just like turned on each other and fucking tore each other up and chose sides and money and all this shit but like watching that rift like those were the people you were supposed to rely on all of them were supposed to be there for you during these

things like when your children die or when everything doesn't go to plan when things that you thought never could or would or should happen and then all three of you all three of you edmure liza cadillac all three of you were supposed to realize the person you shouldn't have trusted and said you wouldn't trust and you knew your father was great you trusted him you believed him in his world you betrayed you guys it betrayed all of you yeah and i almost wondered like did liza pull away because kat didn't see her you know you're talking about we were talking about chia pets but how do you not realize your chia pet hasn't germinated you know what i mean yeah like is it like did liza resent that catelyn didn't realize that she had a miscarriage right and in that moment um with even though it was subconscious right pulls away more and and

again she gets more and more isolated in that tower and i don't know that this letter right i first of all i don't know that it's fair for Kat to ask this, but I understand her wanting to try because I'm like, wow, she's asking a big inconvenience of Liza here in this letter. And she's asking something, I think, very, very painful of Liza to do. And I will say, I don't know that Liza was capable. I don't know if Liza giving Hoster forgiveness, whether that would have been closure for her in like a good way. I mean, it could or it couldn't have like everyone's different. I don't know how it would have been for Liza. We don't get enough of her, I think, perspective to know. But obviously probably would have for Hoster assuming that he knew that it was happening.

But I guess I kind of wonder would liza knowing that her father at least regrets his actions and is sorry for what happened be at least somewhat helpful for her because i think that's that's way more than many people get from their parents like just wanting to know just want wanting to know that they know that they fucked up right or them to say sorry that that's in my opinion that's pretty big it sounds small but that is that's huge and i get what kat is going for here but it is very much i think still like again i don't know that she gets to ask of liza um that inter-family guilting still as she asks Liza to sacrifice her safety on the on all of these different roads right to give peace to the father that has harmed her so deeply

and so I mean lastingly it's really rough right like it does feel it feels like Kat thinks she has a childhood right that was similar to Liza's. But Liza's reveal here to all of us in this moment here, and of course how it comes round circle in the end. Like, it's very obvious Liza's adaptation of their childhood is very different, so to speak, of what Catalan's was. different so to speak of what catalan's was there is kind of like you know there's that parable of in a game of thrones cat called for peace right which i agreed with you agreed with at the time and i agreed with that her call for peace was very sensible that she said many people will fucking die from the northern faction i'm saying it because i have to what if we chose peace y'all what if we gave peace a chance joni mitchell style and ever was like no there's no fucking way we could

ever give peace a chance it feels almost akin to that right that she's just like uh liza give peace a chance you know give our father a chance but what what chance is that a family peace like he's gonna die any moment never having given her anything she asked for i mean it's definitely like a long shot on caitlin's part but she's like i gotta take it i guess yeah that's that's a great point that's a great comparison to a book one and yeah you know i i like what you're saying about catlin thought they had a similar childhood and clearly they did not and seeing how those i mean seeing how those paths diverge right because there was so much similar and they were both considered beautiful, right? They were both happy. Daughters of this great man until, you know, one made the mistake, right? And how it all falls apart because clearly, as we can see, yeah, Liza was proven fertile.

Clearly, Catelyn was fertile. And the Moontea has such a long long lasting effect on Liza. I mean, first of all, a miscarriage is deeply psychologically damaging to a lot of people, right? I've heard stories of how difficult it is for people who struggle to conceive and struggle to carry a child to term. And that's got to be very painful for Liza when we see how much she's gone through and then the fact that if Katlin was so fertile and Liza who fertile that first time granted of course I I assume I think John was mostly shooting blanks right John Aaron is mostly shooting blanks so that can't really be on her that much but also if if those were working out

like I would assume it's the result of the moon tea because it seems like the way george thinks of genetics in some ways is like with all things the same he doesn't have like a super i think he doesn't have a super complex i think uh world building around genetics most of the time so i'm just assuming both of them were that fertile and that this moon tea is part of what caused and likely what liza thinks of as having caused all of these issues for her in terms of the happiness she wasn't able to gain as cat was she wasn't able to do her duty as a wife uh and as a lady of the house and when you put it into perspective that cat's like chasing that high on like a on a very basic level of like i did my job and i did kind of fall in love with the guy and liza's chasing that high

on a very like i couldn't even feel my own feelings because my father forced me to abort my child there's definitely two very different coming of age stories going on there right and yeah as we've mentioned that desperation does come back when it comes to liza and little finger and it makes a lot more sense now on reread of why lives as motivations were what they were you know I feel a lot of sorrow and a lot of sympathy for Liza, especially after some of the prose and some of the pain that gets put forward in this chapter.

It's horrible. It's terrible. Yeah. There's a lot of negativity towards Liza when we get to the Vale and Sansa's chapters, right? And we really explore her on that kind of more feral, more ground level. And it's painful, honestly, to relive because

it's like the reason she clutches Robin so close to her, Robert Aaron so close to her chest, little sweet Robin, the reason she cuddles him like that, you see it. These are the chapters that form that. This is what forms

sweet Robin. Lord Robert Aaron, in all of his grace that form that this is what forms sweet robin lord robert aaron and all of his grace and honor this is what forms him like of course liza kept him close to her bosom and never let him move it's a continuation of uh what hoster did to her the infantilization yeah yeah the infantilization removing agency over and freedom, agency over his body and his life. Yes. That's what she thinks love, I guess, is supposed to look like. I don't know if that's the case. But that's, I don't know if she thinks that's love.

But like, that's all that's been modeled for her when it comes to parenting. So and also that's now she she's decided, fuck the rest of my family. And she's like, this is my only family now. Yeah. And Peter. This high castle on a cloud. This ice castle that no one can reach her within. There is a castle on

a cloud. She likes to go there every day. It is very sad. Anyway. We have a different song reference now. As Catelyn seals the letter, Catelyn hums Jojo's Too Little Too Late, wondering how long her father has. She's like, this is gonna work, right?

And then she goes to pray to the father, the crone, and the mother over in the set. You know, it's a good thing she didn't try to tell him just to get out leave right now oh wow he couldn't i know that's why i said it's a good thing that she didn't so the next day cat reads next to hoster and then she starts to hear a ruckus occur she thinks it could be robin reiger and she goes to investigate at the roof and she's like loophole she looks out at the beautiful river everywhere and feels relief she watches men pour in as it's edmure and two troops returning he takes about two hours before he comes to see her people are jazzed ravens are flying but cat is waiting and she thinks the waiting is hard. Oh, there you go.

George knows, everyone. Yeah, so George knows. He's known this whole time that waiting is hard. It is. I'm fine. So earlier this chapter, right, we have similar language of Kat waiting for Edmure to return. And when he gets back, he also makes her wait a little longer, because clearly he's a little miffed, versus, you know, Hoster immediately asking her when he'd return home, even though he was sometimes late from war, and say, did you

watch for me, little Kat? As opposed to her brother, right, who's so full of imperfection, he could never live up to this hero that she's put on a pedestal in her mind hoster who she's finding out like oh uh now she has to tear down that image uh as as edmure is about to claim the seat of house tully and all that waiting it repeats for her brother right earlier in the books we find that she's waiting for rob and she ties that to the waiting for her father, for her fiancé at the time, and also when she was waiting for Ned as she's watching The Whispering Wood. But as it ties everything together, the sins of all of their fathers, it also comes with the hell of Robert's rebellion, not just tying together this story. And besides the waiting

for men to return from fighting, she's also returned to her girlhood in a sort of forced infantilization as, again, her freedom is taken from her in great juxtaposition, right, to what she's done the entirety of the past two books, where she's gone all the way from the north, all the way to King's Landing, all the way to Riverrun, then to the Vale, then back to the Riverlands, and then all the way to Storm's End, and then back to Riverrun. So, I mean, she

spent the last few books with a lot of freedom and power, traversing the nation, making decisions, and I would say she made decisions and had power, but really, she didn't because to some extent, she was dealing with weirdos like Stannis and Renly. Well, it's as much as we're allowed to make decisions, right? We're only allowed to use so many XP to fulfill those decisions strictly as women.

It's just allowed. I'm just telling you the secrets. You know what I mean? You run out and it becomes Mother's Madness. Yeah, yeah. If you get past a certain point of strength or defense, you fuck it up, you

fuck up the entire point system, and you become Mother's Madness. That's what I'm hearing. That's just... You know, Edmure's return is not exactly great, great. Like, it's not a, he's not in his best state. He's kind of beat up. He was successful in throwing back the Lannisters, but Stannis, you know him, he lost his battle. And Catelyn's like, that's fine. He's creepy. He's like the shadow baby that threatens kids, you know, edmure explains no no no there's

a big picture though highgarden declared for the lannisters and so did dorn you know those last people who had their entire family murder trained by the lannisters because they didn't agree with them um and then to top that all off edm adds, you let the kink slayer go. Edmure tells her, you had no right. Catalin's like, I had a mother's right. But Edmure responds again, saying, no right. And he says, this is far above your pay grade. Ah, this conversation is frustrating, because I am very pro-Edmure.

I always want to support my baby boy. but here he's pissing me off you know i have to talk about the way he is literally drawn literally he says uh george says of edmure he's thin and drawn with pale cheeks unkempt beard two bright eyes i love that his body's ghastly but his eyes they're still feral and alive with energy right you know from like the fighting and the bloodlust kind of tells you where edmure's mind is here that he's war edmure he's not soft boy edmure he's not little brother edmure disrespecting his big sister he likely doesn't even have that same morality scale he's a different man right now right now he's returning from murder only mode uh and in that same note it kind of shows why he repeats you had no right not only as cadeline but as a mother he says no right

uh reiterated twice for her to hear you had no right you have no right it comes kind of full circle that right now he's trying to deny her that but yet as we get to edmure's character in river run right later on and feast and dance he's broken down to nothing himself he knows he has nothing to barter with for river run and he must let them take the castle and try not to murder his men the best he can right like i wonder if right now in a dance with dragons edmure thinks of cat i wonder if he understands what a mother's rights is now right what a mother's desperation means because right now he's got to be feeling lonely and i think he does right to some extent maybe i guess he doesn't think it's madness but it's jamie puts the same

a similar uh calculus in front of him right he's like he asked for you know, Jamie says, give me what I want, or I'm going to take your baby and trebuchet him over the walls. So, again. I think that's a great point. Edmure's very much put in that same position. But I also understand his perspective here, right? He's like, why did we hold out? Why did we fight so long if it was all going to go to shit because of this decision anyway? Feels like he got stabbed in the back after fighting hard.

But also I think, you know, Catelyn's thing made sense too. It's so hard. It's so hard. Everyone has their own motivations and they have all these things that they want and life's terrible and unfair. I didn't think this way in El Enchanted. Now I do in here. That's fair. You know know there's a lot that comes of this though like cattle and him start to go at it about brienne of all people she's like it's fine brienne's gonna protect jamie and edmure's like i don't know she's kind of a woman

you know she has that kind of failure going on for her. And Cat's like, no, no, no. This will bring Arya and Sansa back to us. And Edmure's like, Cersei won't agree to that. Which, mad respect that Edmure's over here simping. And he's like, Cersei's plugged in, girl. Like, she's the CEO, right? Boss-ass bitch. And Cat's like, she's not in charge. Tyrion's in charge, you stupid motherfucker.

And Edmure's like, Jaime has not in charge. Tyrion's in charge, you stupid motherfucker. And Edmure's like, Jaime has shit for honor, first of all. And Tyrion is allegedly dying with an axe to his head. On reread, I love this so much because you know what it represents? The Stark girls at the very end of the book, right? Because Sansa has shit for honor. She murdered Joffrey with a spell, right? That's the rumor.

Yeah. And Arya, she's dying with an axe to the head by the end of the book. Remember? Because we all got tricked that one time during that one chapter. That one chapter. Indeed. Indeed. I mean, it is literal. Hopefully that gets resolved quickly.

Yeah. Yeah. But no, that's such a great point and each of them it's the elder and the younger it is it is and this is it without emotions right like not only is there that parallel of like both siblings being related to jamie and tyrian but also this is the moment where Catelyn realizes they're fucked. He just gave away that Jaime escaped, quote unquote. Not was released. Not that Catelyn was bad and evil and released him. But that Jaime escaped. And as she thinks of her girls, unwanted, un tears tears fill her eyes oh mother i'm so sorry mom

yeah yeah it's so sad again within that same continuum sad they had i guess no value yeah they weren't valuable enough but it feels like no one's safe here anymore, which is like such a destruction and betrayal from childhood that Riverrun is no longer safe to the Tullys, right? Riverrun is everything. And you even have

next chapter with Arya's chapter, right? Before we had Jaime one, the next chapter after Catelyn one is Arya one. She nodded. We'll be safe once we had Jamie one. The next chapter after Catelyn one is Arya one. She nodded. We'll be safe once we reach Riverrun. We will? Why? Because Riverrun's my grandfather's castle, and my brother Rob will be there, she wanted to say.

She bit her lip and rolled up the map. No one's safe there. Arya, you know, doesn't know that yet, but no one's safe there. Cat knows. The Tullys know no one's safe there. Arya, you know, doesn't know that yet, but no one's safe there. Cat knows. The Tullys know no one's safe in River Rudd. Hoster's not even safe here.

This is where he dies. Good for him. He gets out of the rest of it. The rest of the pain. Except for that one huge regret hanging over his life. Anyway. But, you know, I was going to say this as a joke, but I actually do mean it. I mean this very seriously. You know, Kat's life, Riverrun was safe for her when she

and everyone else, they were going with the flow of life, of the rivers, of what she was supposed to do. She never fought back. Now, the tides have turned against them and Riverrun is unsafe. And I honestly actually mean that. I think this might be real within the metaphors of the book. That's it. You might be right. Well, Catelyn wonders if the gods could commit this cruel irony to her, as Chloe wonders why the gods are cruel to her in this moment, too.

Among all of the other things that Catelyn has gone through, there's just a lot that she's dealing with. And Edmure, you know, he just doesn't give a fuck about her problems right now and says, I'm going to get him back. I'm going to get Jamie Lannister back. I sent out a lot of borbs, especially to Lord Bolton, who definitely has her back, saying that, you know what, Jamie escaped. And Catelyn says, no, stop! Stop! You're spoiling it! You're spoiling everything!

And if the world thinks that Jamie escaped, then there is no leverage to get Arya and Sansa back as part of a hostage exchange, because then he's not a hostage exchange anymore and she also thinks that Edmure is a fool for doing this and Edmure's like it's not gonna come to that right we're gonna retrieve Jaime and this is like the most intense sibling fight ever and I'm just like maybe being an only child is good I'm mildly thankful and right this whole chapter i'm like being an only child is good actually anyway kat says that edmure

has only ensured that kathlyn will never see her girls again because no one was supposed to hunt for brian and jamie it's true i mean she didn't exactly get time to lay out more than like maybe three minutes of rules with them right before letting them free but like earlier she was like should i be concerned about like edmure telling ruse what's going on and i'm here to tell you yes yes no she should be concerned this is the juice that gets the red wedding going and i mean it's totally like a corporate thing for enmir that he's in a cover up my mistakes mode you know what i mean like he told ruse he told so many people he's out here like sending birds and he's like yeah yeah we did this

we're covering up catalan's crime we did this it's her crime you know like ruse is waiting for a chance to sparkle and shine and whisper and profit and you just handed it to him edmure that's not good i love edmure and i love a lot of things he does but that one he should have held back a little and you know the irony of it all is that rob and brin didn't show back up and they're like well ed, Edmure, you need to have a better story than that. What are you saying? And they're like, you should have had a way better story and announced it already and done the PR for us. And that's not fair either, though. You know what I mean?

Like, yeah, it's unfair that I'm mad at him right now because right now he's trying to just live up to like being a semi lord. But it's also unfair for that. just live up to like being a semi-lord but it's also unfair for that you know it's interesting that you use this term of like cover up our mistakes as what edmure is doing by sending out all these birds and trying to reverse or cover cover up caitlin's treason because that's what this chapter is about it's about hoster covering up liiza's pregnancy that one time. Edmure is, in a way, I mean, he's following the model that his father has set for them. And Catelyn's like, I have had enough emotional strain for the day and kicks Edmure out of her father's room, aka her prison.

She's got a lot of power still a little bit for a prisoner, aka also what's going to be Edmure's castle in a bit. She's just like, leave me to father and my grief. I have no more to say to you. Go. Go. All she wanted to do was lie down, to close her

eyes and sleep, and pray new dreams would come. And that's the end of Catlin 1, A Storm of Swords. Think happy thoughts. Think happy thoughts. It hurts. It really does.

And it ties back to other hurtful moments in these books. That very last line that very last line of this Catelyn chapter of, you know, lie down, close her eyes and sleep and pray no dreams would come is very similar

language to A Game of Thrones Dany 9 when she you know, finds out that Drogo is not coming back. Inside the tent, Dany found a cushion, soft silk stuffed with feathers. She clutched it to her breast

as she walked back out to Drogo to her sun and stars. If I look back, I am lost. It hurt even to walk, and she wanted to sleep, to sleep, and not to dream. So, this Daenerys line is quite, I think, obviously a reference to

Hamlet, but the line in Hamlet is to sleep, I think, obviously a reference to Hamlet, but the line in Hamlet is to sleep to sleep, perchance to dream. And that's the famous monologue in which he is contemplating suicide. And though the language in that monologue doesn't mirror Catelyn's exactly, it's much more akin to Daenerys's. The fact that both of these chapters are tied together in terms of language, I think shows that this death drive is starting to surface

within her chapter and of course becomes this string pulling the rest of the trajectory of her story in this book I love that I really think that's a great connection especially because like both of these women feel like they're so punished for being unable to perform to the expectations set upon them. And when I say expectations, I mean, these are just like fucking made up rules, right? They're like, you should jumping jack every five seconds after you have sex, you can keep the baby inside you or whatever they're thinking

you know what I mean like just stupid bullshit and it's so hard to read it and Catelyn getting over Ned is Daenerys having to kill her own lover you know burn your own fucking lover down it's awful

yeah that seems traumatic she's like, what? 13? No, she's 14 now. It's fine. She's 14. It's fine. It's fine. She's younger than Liza was, I think, right? Yeah. A little younger than Liza during all this going down.

Liza was 16, 17, I think. Kat was 18, 19 when she married Ned. Everything's going great for everyone our protagonists are sad you know speaking of our sad protagonists I haven't been critical

of Kat this chapter yet as far as I could because honestly it's fucking sad but there is a certain aspect of this chapter that makes me think of tywin in a completely different sense right like tywin pushes tyrian away at the end of a game of thrones because he's giving up on jamie right he's like go back to king's landing you don't care about your brother and tywin sees jamie kind of as his last chance at good in his line his last chance to have

good in the lannister line he's like this is my chance for survivalism against my dad against titus and his shitty line his fool's blood and in a very different way catelyn here is also giving up on her family right like she's giving up on rob on edmure uh as well in order to preserve what she has left good in her family the one thing that she's like i could save this which is her girls but in both of tywin and catalan's blind spots they're very different blind spots they both lose they do both lose that's a great point and it both happens within this book so i think that's that's a really strong what you're pointing out here of you know what they fail to see and catlin's is born out of like this desperation grief

tywin's out of ambition but as But as you pointed out, it's also born from, I think, some of the hurts that he suffered from his parents feeling like he was abandoned and left to the wolves, but not the Starks. I meant the Blackfriars. The Blackfriars. When his father was like,

I'm going to stay at home and send all of you to war while I have sex. Yeah. It's pretty shitty. And, you know, the one thing as we close this chapter that

totally off topic of shitty parentage and shitty bullshit and trauma, well, maybe not trauma, is there was this line when Edmure comes back, right? And he's telling cat what he's done and she says ravens to whom how many and edmure says three so the message will be certain to reach lord bolton by river or road the way from river run to king's landing must needs take So, while rereading this, I realized, you know, two chapters ago we had Chet, right? The prologues.

Mm-hmm. Three horns. What does the third horn mean? Others. What does the third raven mean? Three ravens, three horns. Means fire whites, not ice whites well soon enough aliana soon enough as we get to the end of a storm of swords eventually soon enough indeed indeed well i think we could go on and on about catelyn one for ages weeks months even uh

we're too, there's a lot. I think there's a lot to process emotionally right now, so we're going to stop. Yes, we must stop. Thank you so much for listening, though, to all of Catlin's trauma, Liza's trauma, our trauma.

Our trauma. The Chia Pet trauma. The Chia Pets of Girls Gone girls gone canon hey if you have thoughts on this episode though real talk you can send them over to us on social media at girls gone canon c-a-n-o-n. At gmail.com. Yes. And if you would like to. Get on. The very sad Catlin train.

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A sauce! Have you named your chia pet cha-cha-cha a sauce you named your chia pet a sauce about two minutes ago yeah okay that's a that's a choice goodbye everyone