Girls Gone Canon Cast - ASOIAF Episode 137 - ASOS Catelyn II

Episode Date: September 10, 2021

Robb returns to Riverrun and breaks the news: He broke his oaths to the Freys. Catelyn finds forgiveness upon her king's return though he only brings chastisement for Edmure.  --- Eliana's twitter: https://twitter.com/arhythmetric Eliana's reddit account: https://www.reddit.com/user/glass_table_girl] Eliana's blog: https://themanyfacedblog.wordpress.com/ Chloe's twitter: https://twitter.com/liesandarbor Chloe's blog: www.liesandarborgold.com Intro by Anton Langhage

Hello, and welcome to Girls Gone Canon, Read a Song of Ice and Fire, episode 137, Catalin 2, and A Storm of Swords. I am one of your hosts, Chloe. And I am another one of your hosts, Eliana. Well, here we are. Welcome to A Sad of Storms. Yeah, A Sad of Storms, still. A Sad of Storms 2. Oh my god, A Sad of Storms 2, and it gets sadder and sadder and sadder but you know in case you didn't think you could get sad enough from these chapters we are offering something very special for our patrons

in the stranger tier and above this month eliana tell them what they won yeah so while last month's august patreon episode i thought was pretty joyous and fun. This month is not. I mean, it's fun, but it's not fun. It's actually very hurtful. We're going to hurt you all. The bonus episode we're going to do is all about Rob. What was going on in Rob's head? What is Rob's character progression like?

What does it mean to be Rob Stark? Rob Stark. progression like what is it what does it mean to be rob stark rob stark yeah it is basically a rob stark pov chapter something we don't have right we've been exploring this plot and this rebellion through catalan's eyes which is awesome and it is a great pov to explore it through however wouldn't it be fun to turn the tables and say what if our eyeballs were actually rob stark's eyeballs what if we warged into rob stark in the way that we're gonna warg into rob stark we're gonna warg into rob stark and then into the pigeon and then into ice the sword um but actually you know we're not the only ones who wonder what a rob stark povV would be like. George R.R. Martin has said himself that he kind of regrets not making a Robb POV. I guess there isn't really a set rule that, you know,

just because someone's a king, they don't have a POV. I think it more had to do with that was how George wanted to explore some things. But now he sort of regrets not having Robb. I don't know if he, some of it, some of the interviews say that it's because he maybe felt it got too predictable. But I think that Rob's POV would have actually been a really, and we'll talk about this more, a really great foil and a great exploration into some of those themes that the books are about. Yeah, and I do honestly understand, though, not having a Rob POV. honestly understand though not having a rob pov i think it makes it flow a little better of not getting that side of it because on this we read the signs are goddamn motherfucking everywhere

right like everywhere you look it's like oh yes the starks will be slaughtered soon uh so i can totally see where the mystery might evaporate with a rob pov especially with the battle i don't know if it makes it like more or less right like would him giving rob a pov make it more predictable or less predictable because i guess i can see why he thinks it might be or maybe he just was like he'd never be more painful for everyone if we also gave him a pov like what if i hurt everyone more and that's why he regrets not giving rob a pov well and he still got to live that out right like we're following along on the betrayal on the ground with cadillac here what's to come but

he gets to live that out with his boy king through john later uh in a different way right not exactly a king at the time but he does get betrayed by his fellow people at the wall betrayal he kind of betrayed them a little too but you know oaths vows they make you swear and swear love your sister oh my god hey speaking of loving your sister or or anyone honestly i love eliana i'm gonna be at brunch with her at the end of this month for our patrons over at patreon.com slash girls gone canon same place you'll be able to catch that rob pov if you're a stranger tier member or up but members in the thunder tier and up get access to the discord where you get to talk about pretty much your entire heart's desires you know fire

blood vengeance all the good stuff and we also do a monthly brunch slash happy hour. So this month we'll be having our brunch slash happy hour on the 26th of September. Our theme is to be announced, but we have a couple ideas swimming around. It'll be going from 1 to 3 p.m. Eastern Standard Time or Eliana Standard Time, I like to call it? We'd love to see you. Maybe. Maybe. It could be Eliana's standard time. But yeah, absolutely. I'm excited for some of the ideas that we have this month for what the theme could be. We just need to land on one, but hopefully everyone else

likes them too. Last month's was congratulations themed. I had a hell of a time you had a blast eliana was living her best life last month we did a potluck presentation i we have such we do have a fun time doing that we choose a topic vague topic vague enough topic everyone sends a few slides over this one was a celebration right of everything our patrons have kind of you know not gotten to celebrate of their accomplishments during the pandemic levato uh the pandemic the global pandemic that has you know ruined our lives our tracks yada yada whatever they had tons to celebrate though tons of really

great stuff like graduating or working on writing a book and eliana made a great powerpoint presentation that was all evangelion themed but just that shinji themed yeah just the end just the not like end of evangelion the movie just the end of the main series it was like that like a 30 second time span you were very proud of yourself and honestly i was proud for you like i was like, yeah, good for her. Congratulations to me. So that's your congratulations, Shinji-kun. Yeah, so join us this month where I'm sure

we will have some sort of magical fellow idea coming up. I'm sure Eliana's gonna have a blast with whatever it is. Oh yeah, always. I always do. Ever since I've been given some free reign over this. Yeah, I've taken it once more too far.

You know, it's just like the books that we read as a kid, right? If you give a moose a muffin. That's me. You are the moose with the muffin. I have given the muffin to you or a mouse with a cookie i do i do i'm really into those rituals right i really like to savor things so if you gave me a cookie i probably will try to find a glass of milk and be like no we got to do this properly yeah yep that's you or you'll take a nap speaking Speaking of naps, we are going to, of course, do our His Dark Materials episode at the end of this month.

And we say naps because the characters, our main characters, take so many naps in this series. It's actually, like, remarkable. I'm so jealous. I'm honestly very jealous. Yeah, we're getting through the Amber Spyglass, right? And if you have read the His Dark Mater right and uh if you have read the his dark materials series if you have not i highly recommend it eliana highly recommend it to me and now i'm highly recommending it to you uh read it it's very fun we have gone through the first

two books northern lights slash the golden compass and the subtle knife we've also gone through one of the spin-off books from the book of dust called La Belle Sauvage. And now we are taking the sad train home on the trilogy's close in the Amber Spyglass. So keep up with that. We've got a handful of episodes going already with that and more to come. Indeed. Well, we're not including any emails and tweets of note with this episode but we did get an email of note and i do really want to thank that sender hany for their email it it just really brought a smile to my face so thank you so much for sending that um loved your wonderful art yes i love it they've been really doing some art during this sad pandemic levado and that that's so exciting. I'm not as talented as some people like Aliana are with

their beautiful artwork. I am just a humble doodler. You know, I'm just a humble doodler but really exciting all the art that they do and they have a beautiful art station. Maybe we'll have to reach out and see if we can link it in the description. Yes, yes. So I just wanted to say thank you for that.

Yes, absolutely. And and you know we had like you said a lot of really great comments about the episode our discord is always alight with some great conversation and kind of some discourse in the discord right uh but we are bringing on as we you know as the cat's out of the bag as we get get to the end of Cat, we are going to have two guests coming up in the month of October. So keep your eyes peeled for that announcement and the announcement of a new POV, whoever it could be. Yeah, so things are heating up, even though the weather is cooling down outside. Winter is coming, not just for all of us in real life but for the starks specifically just these two starks who are going to die because turns out surprisingly the majority of them actually

seem to be alive even the ones you can't really kill you know like you think you're gonna kill them but they're gonna come back you know they're gonna come back it's gonna happen yeah big big october it's actually really wow it's it actually does work really well for a halloween now that i think about it we didn't even plan this all right nope it just all fell in line and the storm that comes to us here in a storm of swords the storm ahead is nothing compared to our lightning round because there are quite a few chapters in between cat one and cat two you know we ended a clash of kings hungry for cat that's weird uh we ended a clash of kings starving for more catalin and i guess you're leaving it in i know you will uh but it took so long to get back to her, right? She was the second chapter in this book, and it's going to take us, what, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, like 11, 12 chapters to get back to Catelyn.

So, Eliana, start us off with this lightning round so we can get to it. All right. So, first little crackles of lightning. Arya I. Arya and company seek the Trident. When she sleeps, she brutalizes some bombers tyrian one tyrian recovers from the black water and his personal victory is short-lived when his father arrives threatening all his hopes and dreams and all that shit secession shit you guys get it hbo oh my god chloe davos won the plot of Castaway.

I didn't know I was a POV character, Chloe Davos. I saw and watched it since our discussion of watching and not watching Castaway when we did the Davos show. Wilson! Oh my god. Wilson! Sansa won.

Sansa sups with the roses. Sup. John won. John says sups with the roses. Sup. Jon won. Jon says sup to Mance Rayder and gains sympathy through status. Daenerys won. Daenerys makes for Pentos, but Jorah advises her to change direction

to Astapor to buy an army of Unsullied. Jorah also more than oversteps his boundaries with Dany in this one, just putting it out there a little too much. Gross. Yeah. Bran I. In the Tumbledown Tower, Bran learns to open his third eye at Will. Davos II. Davos learns that Devon lives and plans to murder Melisandre. Jaime II. Jaime, Cleos, and Brienne land at the

end of the Kneeling Man, where Jaime remembers some old traumas. Yay. Tyrion too. Varys shares whispers with Tyrion. Tyrion hopes to protect Shae and knows he must have Simeon Silvertongue taken care of. Arya too.

Arya and friends meet up with a familiar face amongst the Brotherhood Without Banners. And that brings us into Catelyn 2. A Storm of Swords record scratch. So you're probably wondering how King Rob got here

in this situation. It is quite a pickle. Quite a pickle he got in Jane, you know? It is quite a pickle. Quite a pickle he got in Jane, you know? It is quite a pickle. And, you know, Rob had returned to Reveron. Grey Wind is beside him. He will come to me, Catelyn thinks.

Because as we all remember, Edmure hasn't returned to her after her first visit. It was like a really awkward sibling fight, as we discussed last time. It was really intense and thankful for being an only child. Edmure has instead spent his days with Mark Piper and Patrick Malister, serenaded by Ryman the Rhymers. That's hard to actually say. Versus Anna Battle at Stone Mill. But Rob was not Edmure, she reminded herself,

and Rob would come. I know some people have pointed this one out before, but, you know, Edmure usually shits on singers, right? This is such a showing detail. And later, I'm going to be very fair, maybe a little mean, to both Edmure, Rob, and Catelyn, because they kind of have a chapter here. They need to get a couple

things together, so we'll talk about it. But Edmure here, you know, I think it's notable that he's very into this song from the Battle of Stone Mill, that he's super proud of what he did in battle. And yes, per Rob's direction, a little bit of his actions out there are probably in want of glory, right? Like, yes, Rob didn't really give perfect directions, we'll talk about later, but Edmure's got a lot to shoulder right now with his legendary father wrinkling up, pruning, and going right behind him in this giant castle. Actually, this right here, him listening to this song proudly, kind of makes later the floppy fish song that much sourer right like oh

bummer interesting interesting yeah and i mean like i don't know i don't blame him for not wanting singers who like talk about his uh inability to hold an erection versus the ones who talk like good about him like that seems normal that seems like a normal human thing we all have reply guys admire you know i'm just saying well it had rained for days because you know it's a storm of swords so that's why it's raining oh it's just grown weak waking only to mutter tansy and beg for forgiveness sad shit ed muir has shunned catelyn and desmond grell still denies her freedom of the castle every now and then though her new buddy may survive and comes with things but lately the only thing that has brightened

her spirits was seeing robin reiger and his men returning to the castle drenched and foot weary god how fucking depressing it's just gray and stormy and gross from here on out it doesn't improve neither does the plot right death hangs over all of them it's just such a wreck and yeah maester viman sometimes comes to see her but even he starts to withhold info right she thinks this robin reiger returning is going to be so great but her excitement actually fades when she hears anger out in the in the yard she heads out to look out at what's happening and she sees in the distance horses being led from stables and saddled and rob's white banner on the ground fallen the men that fought with edmure on the fords ride off trampling the dire wolf. She thinks she may see

Purwin Frey and Martin Rivers in the distance in that group of men leaving, but she can't quite be certain from her view. She watches at least 40 men pour out of the gates. They don't come back. Maester Vyman refuses to tell her everything he knows. He says, I'm only here to tend to Hoster, and soon your brother will be lord. Perhaps you should ask him, my lady. But now Robb was returned from the west, returned in triumph. He will forgive me, Catelyn told herself. He must forgive me. He is my own son, and Arya and Sansa are as much his blood as mine. He will free me from these rooms and then i will know what has happened so i think that this line it's so fascinating of a thought from catalyn in the context of the previous chapter about hoster asking for forgiveness from catalyn because catalyn

here is so sure that whatever sins that she's committed just now, Rob must forgive her solely by virtue of him being her son. And it's a mistake that many parents make, that no matter how far they go, their children will forgive them, so long as they realize it was, you know, for like the kid's own good, right? Or for the good of the family. And Rob does forgive Catelyn, as we see, because turns out Rob has also made a huge mistake and understands, I guess. But as we see from last chapter, forgiveness isn't something that's just assured just because people are family, right? Some hurts are too deep and too serious, as we see Liza refusing to forgive Hoster and then becoming even more isolated from her family because of the pain and as she becomes

vulnerable to Peter's manipulations as well, which of course further severs them. And we see that part of why Catelyn thought maybe that, oh yeah, Lysa's definitely gonna forgive Hoster in her letter, or at least that she felt that she could make this enormous ask of Lysa is perhaps projection. She thinks Lysa must forgive Hoster because she thinks, well, Rob must forgive me. And as we see, both situations play out pretty differently. And we realize that forgiveness and winning the war aren't actually the same thing as forgiveness. And actually winning when it comes to, you know, having your family together, that closeness, that emotional intimacy. Because Hoster never got that forgiveness, but he did win the war, right? They kept their oaths.

They did everything, quote-unquote right in the way that Westerosi noble families are supposed to, you know, according to all of those Westerosi societal values, whereas Catelyn and Rob, they gamble and they risk everything, and you know, Cat, she does get that forgiveness from her son, and she knows that she did what she could for her family. She knows that she tried everything she could for her family she knows that she tried everything and therefore uh no regrets on that front perhaps uh and broke all the rules in the process all the rules of wester westerosi society and has lost the trust of all the bannermen as we're going to see and she only got forgiveness because her son also broke a bunch of rules broke his oaths and did a bunch of things that he shouldn't have but in the end what they did cost them the war and their lives and i'm not saying that like you know

one outcome is better than the other because obviously being alive is pretty cool too um just that it's an interesting i i'm sure catalyn uh would have preferred herself and rob to be alive but you know just that it's an interesting thing to consider, right? Forgiveness within the family, feeling entitled to that forgiveness, whether or not you actually get it. That's a great breakdown of it because, like, Cat's also very desperate here, right? For that forgiveness. And I do feel like Cat is, her whole world, as we've talked about, is crumbling down around her. And we talk a little bit about how she's kind of reduced to being little waiting Kat.

Once just for Hoster, but now not just for Hoster, now for Edmure, now for Rob. And always waiting for the next move from them. And here she is praying maybe her last hope that her son can forgive her and that he won't keep her in the dark about things right he'll still come to her and be her son which truly in the next few chapters he does kind of emotionally cut her off a bit more but uh she's just hoping family's enough and that family love and a family bond is enough to nurture that because she has really nothing else right if she loses that then she's really lost everything. I've been rereading Circe by Madeline Miller, which I highly recommend that and Song of Achilles.

It's just really good. And there's something I love about how Madeline's fleshed out the story that I really think resonates here. I think both Miller and George R. R. Martin are some of the few more modern-day writers have captured that greek tragedy feel that these mothers actually kind of go through like cersei and kat and liza and in this book cerse is punished as a scapegoat because she is the least risk to give up by helios he casts her out to an island where she's isolated and she has to learn to be alone and to nurture herself and her power in witchcraft and for characters like her, Catelyn, Cersei, their power comes from their fathers right Helios, Hoster, Tywin and then when those men pass or when she's passed along from those men they come from whatever

extension of that they grasp whether it's their new husbands whether it's the sons they birth for those husbands and this excerpt from Circe comes to mind basically in her exile when she takes on nymphs at one point, and I really love it. They trembled when I passed, ducking and calling me mistress, but it meant nothing. I had been put in my place. At a word and a whim from my father, all my vaunted power blew away. Not even my father, any river god had the right to fill my island and I could not stop him. The nymphs wafted around me, their smothered laughter drifted down the halls. At least, I told myself, it was not their brothers who would have bragged and fought and hunted down my wolves. But of course, that was never a real

danger. Sons were not punished uh it really brings to mind you know later when rob declares that she must go you know she's going to go either stay with the phrase or sea guard etc all the times that rob has tried to rid her from the campaign and her thinking that hey rob has to still love me right right? Because sons were not punished. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's such a great comparison. And this quote that you have here is really interesting when it comes to, you know, not being able to stop anything and being put in their place. Because, I mean, that's what it feels like has been happening for cadlin these first two chapters right that after you know she she's pushed on the boundaries to some to a large

extent and was given so much freedom in a clash of kings in terms of like mobility and also in a game of thrones and now apparently this was a step too far she's being put in her place her punishment is coming from the gods yeah that and and you know as you were talking about like the power coming from their fathers right she stays close to her father who's i mean her father is dying his power is dwindling and what power that she could gain from him right that we see her exert on the dungeon the jailer the night before jamie's release right um i mean like it it all revolves around men edmure is able to then take away her freedom but now that rob is back once again power flows from him into her and he's like i guess you can like just wander around

i have forgiven you and you can be part of our super secret plans now that happened at the end of this chapter chewing out poor edmure he doesn't deserve it that much he deserves it like a tiny bit but but not for that not for that not for i think what happened what they punished it's projection it is it is your sons are not punished except for edmure i guess yeah edmure is the exception not the rule yeah by 16 year old kid i'd be like what the fuck anyway well and you know i mean we'll talk about it but he gets his anyways right he gets his punishment that's for sure it's it's something you know i'll say and again if you're not watching secession on hbo eliana i know i knew when you brought it up again i was like this is directed at me this is not for the listeners anymore this is just for me

no that's not for the listeners because i am assuming that they are good and they have already watched it. You know, and that it's just me that had the problem until tonight when I finished the finale. And it's you that now has the problem. But, you know. Wait, you finished the whole ass thing already? Yeah, I'm done with both of the seasons. Season 3 comes out in October, Eliana.

It's not completed. It's ongoing. No. At least one to three more seasons at most, but it'll probably end by then. But you know what? There is. You know, it's ongoing at least one to three more seasons at most but it'll probably end by then uh but you know what there is you know it's a it's very corporate and uh there's always got to be a blood sacrifice and edmure is literally that blood sacrifice in this chapter and later he's the one that they say all right edmure your loins are good enough let's send you in yeah actually though that that is that is pretty much what happens. But for now, Catelyn's, she's not being sent in.

No one wants her to go there. But she does, they do come for her to attend at the Great Hall, right? She gets bathed, dressed, and then she looks fine as fuck because she is a tight 32. She's gotta be 33 soon. Settle down, Eliana. Alright, you know what? She's still in that same census group, okay? Desmond escorts her to attend Rob in the very crowded

Great Hall. And she wonders, Have I lost two sons or three? She would know soon enough. Everyone in the hall is staring ahead at the king, but Catlin knows them all by their backs lady mormon's ring mail uh gray john and his son they're giants lord jason malister looking motherfucking dapper as always with his white hair and winged helm on his arm titus

blackwood with being a beautiful feathered birb is like Titus Blackwood does he look like I don't know Dark Big Bird that's a question that I have now Darth Big Bird maybe Darth Big Bird that's a character that should exist put that one in the fucking world book

extended universe George Lucas I do love that Titus Blackwood is just fabulous always oh yeah favorite you know catelyn does think as she walks into the hall and sees their backs she thinks half of them will want to hang me now the other half may only turn their eyes away oh that line sure stands out on a reread right yeah it really does half of them will want to hang me now well that's why you become a girl boss lady stoneheart girl boss although she sees these familiar backs she can't quite figure out who's missing but she knows someone is missing something feels off rob meanwhile is standing on the dais, looking like

a young wolf now. Sixteen, a man grown. War had melted all the softness from his face and left him hard and lean. He had shaved his beard away, but his auburn hair fell uncut to his shoulders. The recent rains had rusted his mail and left brown

stains on the white of his cloak and surcoat. Or, perhaps, the stains were blood. On his head was the sword crown they had fashioned him of bronze and iron. He bears it more comfortably now. He bears it like a king. Make it

stop. I'm in so much pain. It hurts. This chapter hurts. You know what? We're not gonna stop. It's gonna get worse. Fuck off. I actually hope that the stains- this is bizarre. I hope the stains are blood and not rust, because that's how you get tetanus.

Well, that's true. Rob, I'm worried about you. Rob, get- clean your shit. From a Clash of Kings Catlin 2, I want to bring up this uh line that that this all reminds me of war will make them old caitlin said as it did us she had been a girl when robert and ned and john aaron raised their banners against aries targaryen a woman by

the time the fighting was done i pity them so obviously we discussed this line before because uh it was in the clash of kings caitlin too but you know as you pointed out earlier once again caitlin was waiting and and here right even though caitlin was waiting behind during robert's rebellion we see her saying that rob saying that war has also hardened her. And of course, it did Ned, right? For Robert, it actually broke him. And now we see that it's happening all over again, right? It happened as she predicted that war will make them old, it has made Rob old and into a man. But what I find so interesting about this also is like how Rob's storyline compares to John's. You know, there's so much there between these two who are like brothers. They consider one another brothers, right? John finds himself also thrust into a position of power soon by the end of this book, much like his brother. You know, whereas, you know, Rob only finds, what, a sword thrust into him. And the advice that Eamon gave

him, gave John, oh, damn. Dude, chill, chill. No Eamon. The advice that Eamon gives John was to kill the boy and let the man be born. And John does try to do so. And for a moment here, just like a sliver

of a moment here in this chapter, it seems that Rob has succeeded, right? He's a man, that man is born in front of everyone, but unfortunately while war is yes, super draining and forces these children into super difficult situations and

into the position of having to make mature decisions far beyond their years, it doesn't actually really make them older or more mature uh the fact is that you know i think i think a lot of it comes with experience and of course war is full of experiences that will like lead to to some of these outcomes but uh we still see them struggle and i do think that's a big point of the books and i don't think we should forget that like I do think this is something also that kind of worked against George and was to his detriment by losing the five year gap. Because like, I just I just can't really hold John or Rob to the same same standard as adults, right? I know, again, like, as I'm always griping on, like, people will be like, oh, but it was different back then. First of all, shut the fuck up. This is a fantasy series. There's no back then. And, you know, regardless, neuroscience shows that brains don't work like

that. No matter what kind of stressful situations you put children and adolescents in, it doesn't, like, actually change the way, like, decision making develops chemically and, like, within the brain until like things settle by a certain time period and also sometimes actually stressful situations make it worse for childhood development anyway anyway um the make or break point though of whether or not someone like really grows up right and matures i think that like watching that happen that internal struggle for characters i would be able to like judge them a bit more like if john were like in his early 20s right or something when he has to like do this

like kill the boy and let the man be born but when he's like 15 or 16 i'm like it's okay john you literally are still a baby it's fine um i mean obviously things aren't fine for him because he dies also but at least rob you know even at his, was able to do what his namesake couldn't, right? He does try to take responsibility for his actions, and he's in a difficult place. And being 16, very much a youth, makes it difficult for him to understand those nuances of responsibility. I know you're going to talk a bit more about those oaths later, Chloe, but I appreciate that Rob does try. He makes an effort, unlike King Robert Baratheon, who despite all of his years, right, he never really does succeed in killing the boy and letting the man be born. He just stays a man-child all the way until the time

of his death. Yeah. And I think there are some really great echoes of Robert throughout this chapter, just in thinking of the rebellion and in thinking of what Rob's doing, leading his own rebellion. And it is really hard to not like it's, you can't hold those children as accountable as the adults. But it's hard to watch this because when you talk about john's

kill the boy right they're both doing a lot of the same things around the same times like they're both about to well they both have lost their virginity in the start of this book congratulations congratulations get the fuck away from me um they both have lost their virginity at the front of the book in something that feels like very traitorous stuff right like one is with Ygritte one is with Jane Westerling and not Afray

and they're both kind of coming to age and killing the boy in that aspect but they're also killing the boy in you know soon you have Rahab killing Karstark and that is kind of a botched job and then you have Jon at the front here killing Corrin halfhand they're both learning these very similar similar life lessons in very opposite situations very

opposite places right now and uh I think there's you know the the line of not only you know does war make them older which it will but it made monsters of a lot of them too and i don't know some of it is watching rob age and watching him choose because it's a war it's not like a play date with a bunch of your northern and riverlands friends right like this is this is war the point is kill or be killed out there on the field yeah absolutely as he points out later on in this chapter you know he wins every battle but yet somehow he's losing the war and i think some of it it's like he can be a man on the battlefield, but what about when it comes to making the right decisions for his people, ruling? It's a lot more complicated, as we're going to see in the rest of this chapter and in a bunch of other things throughout all of these books.

Forever. Yeah, forever. I mean, who knows when they'll be done. Anyways. Edmure stands below the dais, head bowed to Rob, praising his victory and doing a quick five-minute set on Tywin's failures. The crowd laughs and shouts, but Rob silences them and says, The Lannisters will march again, though, and there will be more battles to win for the kingdom. Shouts of, King of the North and King of the trident fill the air fists are pounding feet are stomping and only a few notice caitlin and desmond enter but the few that do elbow their partners which causes a hush to fall around her you have this line of she held her head high and ignored the eyes let them think what they will it is rob's judgment that matters it's true that's true

yeah her her uncle brendan's face on the dais is comforting she notices rob has a new squire which is interesting as well as a young knight standing behind him in a sand-colored surcoat with seashells and an older knight with three black pepper pots on a saffron bend across a field of green and silver stripes between them stands a handsome older lady and two daughters one sansa's age one a little older than that pretty she can't remember who has seashells as a sigil and she wonders why would rob bring captives on the dais eutherides wayne bangs his staff to silence the room and desmond escorts her forward she watches rob's eyes which seem eager and apprehensive

question mark she's surprised they don't look condemning that's what she's expecting her uncle brinden though is the very first to greet her he jumps right off of the day as he leaps down tells her it's good to see her hugs her i love it you'd love to see it brinden is the best he does not give a fuck about what the society thinks of him. Like, at least he gets it right, because you're all out there dying every day together. Who has the time for this status quo? Holy shit. Yeah, I agree. I agree. I love that he shows her warmth anyway, and it opens the path for other people to do so. Very nice, especially because he is well respected. very nice especially because he is well respected Catelyn looks up at her son

and then asks of his wounds he took an arrow in the arm apparently while storming the crag but it healed up due to special care Catelyn decides to not bury the lead and asks so Rob what do you think of my treason for the girls and for keeping some semblance of the children alive? And before she can get his opinion, Lord Karsark chimes in and says he also has an opinion,

pointing out that he has lost children and that Catelyn has robbed him of his vengeance. Catelyn tries to de-escalate, telling him that the Kingslayer's death would not avenge his children, but could at least buy back hers. He tells her that she's been played a fool with his empty words, and that his Torrin and Eddard deserved better

than her. The Greyjohn steps in, telling him to leave it alone, and that it was a mother's folly because that women are made that way. And then Rickard carstark calls it treason emotions are running hot here everyone emotions are running hot first of all i just want to say a mother's folly okay great john like you don't freak out and go bloodlust when you're in the field and suddenly you accidentally killed 10 people but all of a sudden catalan lets go some guy who's not on a redemption arc and the people go wild um second of all all right i have a little fair

critique i'm gonna be fair to everyone listen i'm gonna be really critical of everyone here in this situation and first of all karstark's not wrong jam Jamie doesn't really restore Kat's girls right away or make an attempt to. You know, there's not. Obviously, it's not his to restore when he gets there. But also, like, there isn't really an attempt made. IDK. I'm just saying. That said, I love the kids of House Stark, right?

With all my heart. I think that's obvious after listening to these episodes. But this still feels really cold, what she said to Rickard. Really cold that, you know, there's still a chance to save her children, which it is true. That is also true. There is a chance. But also, she's not able to divulge the whole truth of what went on in that dungeon, right? And she doesn't really get asked to.

Yeah, they almost fucked uh but she doesn't divulge like why she's placing her trust in this man with shit for honor and yes war is what you signed up for karstark you signed up to be a fucking meat bag for the starks during all of this but i don't know to quote a very you know a very popular tv show that actually inspired these books cutting heads off is great but you can't build a kingdom on vengeance right like that's fun and all but Lord Karstark you can't just do that and Catelyn I'd like you to take notes too in the wings while I'm saying this you can't just you know go around getting vengeance all the time and they're apples to oranges right like Catelyn freeing jamie to possibly save the girls is a very different situation than karstark's sons being cut down in the field of battle uh that

doesn't make their lives any less any worth less than and then the stark girls or the stark boys and what cat did in the long run will probably benefit all of us in ways for the story right like whether it's in the long night with jamie who knows us in ways for the story right like whether it's in the long night with jamie who knows what's going to go down if he's going to get there brienne in the long night everything that happened there will benefit the story but it's a hurtful exchange nothing can soothe the death of a child and cadeline knows that obviously because she acted in her grief to make a difference and she had the autonomy to make that difference it doesn't add up to what she said to rickard here fully the optics are bad cat and again war bad but rickard is going out there and cutting his soul in half right losing his children and

then he's kind of being told to fuck off i i feel bad for the guy right now i don't that doesn't mean like any of it's right they're all wrongs they're all giant drama turds but like i do feel bad for the man because you work for these people for how long loyally yeah lose your kids to them and this is what you get a fuck off goodbye i would do the same thing like i would have done the exact same thing Kat did, but it doesn't make it fully right. Yeah, I mean, what Rickard's doing here, that's a father's madness, if you will. But I agree. I agree with everything that you're saying.

And also, I mean, as you said, right, we do benefit from the story. Like, Kat did these actions for her daughters, but for also the most important person of all, the plot. For me. She did it for me. She did it for me and the reader and the story. And that's important. But, I mean, I agree with everything you said about, like, Rickard Carstor having a point and it being, like, a critique, right, of her actions.

I get it, you know? And I appreciate Mage Mormont saying later on, like, yeah, she would have done the same thing as Katlin, you know and i appreciate mage mormont saying later on like yeah she would have done the same thing as catelyn you know understanding all that and the great john you know also being welcoming of her anyway but not just rickard carsark losing his sons right but if we look at rickard's loss of his children not like as him rickard's carsark as an individual one person who has lost his sons. But if we think of it as a representation of the many, many families who are out here fighting and dying in this war, what Catelyn did is incredibly, incredibly hurtful and irresponsible. Because

besides those two kids of Rickard Karsark's sons, I mean, those kids are just meant to exemplify on that story level, the many, like, those kids are just meant to exemplify, like, on that story level, the many other ones, right? So many people died protecting Rob from Jamie. Jamie himself says this. Rob says it, that he cut down, like, a bazillion people trying to

make a path between him and Rob, and he almost does, if not for all of these men who gave their lives so that Robb could live. And I'm not saying that Karstark is right to demand vengeance, but they are right to think that Kat is selfish for jeopardizing the entire campaign in this way and for rendering the deaths of their sons, their husbands their fathers their brothers like literally all of these people in vain and i mean like you know i again i'm not saying like

that this action of of freeing jamie is what causes the downfall of everything there's so many other dominoes in place that everything so many other small pieces um happen and fall um to lead to the red bedding but also um again the most powerful character of all the plot um but you know in many ways it is a factor right like i don't think jamie's the only reason but it is a reason it's comparable to you know why wyman manderley's now moving why he's like oh the mummer's farce is over i can move my plot his his own individual plots forward and turn on the lannisters and the boltons now that my son is home right like again like what did everyone's loved ones die for like what did all these men die for and leave home for if they were gonna lose this big point of leverage and also like

you know but i understand where cat's coming from right like on an individual level it makes sense why she did this because a song of ice and fire is about that heart in conflict with itself so like cat's choice isn't necessarily wrong either, but you asked, what are the Stark girls' lives that much more important than Kar Stark's kids? I don't know, but borrowing from that exchange between Stannis and Davos, what is the freedom of her two daughters against the hundreds or the thousands of lives that have been slaughtered for the Starks already? or the thousands of lives that have been slaughtered for the Starks already, and then that will die at the Red Wedding or in these wars to come. I don't think that there is an easy answer as easy as what Davos says of everything here. It's a much more different calculus and situation.

Yeah, and it's hard, right? Because it makes the Starks, and we talked about this a little off the record before the episode, but, you know, you look at, like, the Olympians, the gods upon Olympia, and then you know they're not like he's not poor he's not some rando he's someone who's been sworn to the starts who's part of the starts i mean they're an off branch they're an offshoot of the starts yeah right so it's almost just like how the lannisters are like oh the lannisters of lannisport fuck those guys uh but they are kind of close at least yeah yeah it just feels wrong to to watch that go down and it feels sad i'm bummed for them but his reaction at coming after this in the next chapter you know we'll get to some of that stuff but karstark shouldn't have kept going maybe he should have taken a breather ate a Snickers you know maybe war's bad

do you think George is saying that ever? I don't know if he believes that but I feel like he thinks war is bad it's definitely a question it's a question that's raised it is war bad I think Karstark's actions in the next chapter are wrong

but just because his actions are wrong like as you're saying in the next chapter doesn't make yes it because his actions are wrong, like as you're saying, in the next chapter, doesn't make the point that, yeah, the critique that he makes of Catelyn's actions wrong, either. Yeah. Well, Rob's had enough of this. Whether it's

us, whether it's Karstark and Kat, Rob has had enough of this. He asks them to stop. His voice sounds more like brandon's than ned's for a moment catalan thinks and says no man calls his lady of winterfell a traitor he softens when he turns to catalan declaring while she freed him without permission he knows she did it for love and then rob who was so experienced in all the ways of love, speaks up and says, Love's not always wise, I've learned. It can lead us to great folly. But we follow our hearts,

wherever they take us, don't we, Mother? Is that what I did? If my heart led me into folly, I would gladly make whatever amends I can to Lord Karstark and yourself. Lord Rickard's face was implacable. Will your amends warm Torrin and Eddard in the cold graves where the Kingslayer laid them? He shouldered between the Great John and Mage Mormont and left the hall. Rob made no move to detain him. I love that even though these parts specifically,

what Rickard Karstark wants is about vengeance. It is so different, like, vengeance and, and wanting peace, right, wanting to let it go, is, is portrayed as kind of opposites within the series, yet the way Rickard Karsark says this, of will your men's warm torrent and eddard in the cold graves where the kingslayer laid them, of will your men's warm torrent and eddard in the cold graves where the king's leader laid them i love that it echoes so well um both caitlyn's questions about like why what's the point of seeking vengeance uh for ned or even alaria advising against vengeance you know in terms of that warming them in their graves for example alaria in the instant dragon saying i saw your father die here's his killer can i take a skull to bed with me to give me comfort in the Instant Dragons saying, I saw your father die, here's his killer can I take a skull to bed with me to

give me comfort in the night? Will it make me laugh, write me songs, care for me when I am old and sick? Or when Renly promises Circe's head to Catelyn? Catelyn wonders, and will that bring my Ned back to me? And so I just love

that there's still a question of yeah anyway, I just love that there's still a question of... Yeah. Anyway, I just love the way that these seem to echo one another despite being about the opposite things. Yeah. And there's something so significant about Karstark's children's names. I really pondered on it a little bit.

And the fact that, of course, Eddard is one son that was murdered. And Torrin, you know, named after the king who knelt the king who gave away the north oh yeah that feels pretty significant especially in uh how he feels about rob at the end of his life before you know rip rip carsark rd Karstark. Felt significant. Felt significant, those names. It does feel significant, yeah, especially with that Eddard. Guilty. You know, it probably makes her feel really guilty thinking about Eddard, another Eddard being dead.

Yeah, and as you pointed out, right, like, that they're not, they're not, like, super close relatives, but I guess they're relatives. They're still kind of relatives. You know, I feel like it's like, I don't know. I'm cool with my cousins. Yeah, same. I'm cool with my aunts and uncles. I just feel like you got to still be cool with them. And I feel like he's not really being cool with his long distance cousin here.

Yeah. Well, Rob does ask Catelyn to forgive Karstark, which, first of all, they should have gone after Karstark. I don't know why they let him storm out like that. But Rob asks Catelyn to forgive him, and she says she will if Rob can forgive her. He already has, though. He says he knows what it is to love so greatly you can think of nothing else. Oh, Rob, a young boy in love. It's bringing some memories back, but i do have to say rob like you

just met the girl four weeks ago kind of spewing the l word out a lot i know you married her and all but come on right i'm not sure if he does and i'm like i don't know rob like being horny all the time at 16 years old is not the same as being in love i know because i've been there but i experienced mature adult I know because I've been there but I experienced mature adult I've killed the boy and let the man be born my god you've killed a man

or a boy? Jesus Eliana you can't just say that on the podcast this is not a true crime podcast it could be it's just really funny because you know later on he says to uh what's the really cheesy thing he says something

so eye roll worthy oh the I took her castle she took my heart later that we'll go through uh that's just the like cheesiest 16 year old in love shit I was 16 I was in love too I've been there rob i get you anything for the nookie man actually though yeah she took my cast i took her castle i'm like

your mom doesn't want to hear you playing come into my castle that is really what it is and it's like okay i don't want to have to have the talk with you again but right well not that talk but rob says that they must talk different talk though um and katlyn thinks i've not lost this child at least so rob has eutherides and the session and katlyn is surrounded by well-wishers all of a sudden such such as, for example, Mage Mormont, again, saying that she would have done the same, and the Greyjohn, no respect of proprieties, lifting her and squeezing her. Galbraith Glover and Jason Malister are much cooler,

and Jonos is almost icy, but their forwards were courteous enough. And Nyr is last, telling her, you know, I do pray for the girls, and she tells him that she loves him for it. By the end of the whole parade, Robb, the three remaining T the girls, and she tells him that she loves him for it. By the end of the whole parade, Rob, the three remaining Tullys, and six strangers were left. The seashell-clad family.

They're all wearing seashell bras, like in The Little Mermaid. Oh, right. I love those bitchy little mermaids. I always wanted to be one. I'm gonna be honest. That's why you had mermaid prom. Yep, mermaid prom. God, uh, there's your

kingdom, Rob. By the end of the parade, three remaining Tullys, six strangers. There's your kingdom. All of it for a cracker. Ah. Catalin asks if they're new to the cause, and they say they are, but they're fiercely loyal. Okay.

Rob introduces Lady Sibel, wife of Lord Gowan, Westerling of the Crag. He explains they took her husband captive in the Whispering Wood, and Catelyn is reminded of House Westerling suddenly and their seashells. She's like, ah, that's right. You're that miner house sworn to the Lannisters. Dot, dot, dot. Yeah. I don't know. Fiercely Dot, dot, dot. Yeah. I don't know. Fiercely loyal, Sibyl says.

Sounds like something a traitor would say, Sibyl. What you saying? Fiercely loyal to who? Fiercely loyal to whom? Sibyl Kikili, how could you? Each of the party introduces themselves. Rolf Spicer, Sibyl's brother, Castlin of the C introduces themselves rolf spicer sybil's brother castlin of the crag their children sir reynold with a bushy mustache elenia a young girl and rolam westerling rob's

new squire catalan is surprised rob won the crag's allegiance but it makes sense because castrilli doesn't really take betrayal gently finally the last to be introduced is the shy pretty maid jane westerling except then rob is like my lady wife and then he like braces right for impact for a hot second my lady wife cringe the first thought that flew across catalan's mind was no that cannot be you're only a child the second was and besides you've pledged to another and the third was mother have mercy rob what have you done only then came her belated remembrance folly's done for love he's bagged me neat as a hair and a stare he got you cat that kid got you he did got him hate when i have no experience with this but i hate when your kids get you i've only gotten to do it a few times you know only a few times like when my mom and dad

one time were like oh we know all about what you did as a kid and all the things you got up to and i'm like how you fucking think yeah anyway um so i i thought i find this uh line interesting i love the way that george delivers it first of all the first thought then the next thought though the next thought so so great so well done but i wanted to point out catelyn thinking of rob being a child during this uh in finding out about his marriage is significant i don't think it has to do with her thinking that Rob is her baby boy. I do think it has to do with something we've discussed before, which is, I mean, Catelyn wasn't married until she was 18. People aren't supposed to get, like, married as young as everyone says.

They're like, oh, yes, people get married so young and best-dressed. That's normal. And I'm like, not always but sometimes right like i mean sansa's hastily done marriage right to tyrian that's one that everyone's like ah no she she is way too young ned points out as much it's pointed out during denarius's marriage as well and it's something that was more done for the sake of political alliances desperation things like that but betrothals would have been more common around that age, right? And anyways, so

that's part of it, but also other people. Other people also pledge, put aside their marriage oaths in this book, or their betrothal oaths. And interestingly, I think Joffrey kind of in a way dies for setting aside his oaths too, but not in a

very different way, but also kind of the same thing. Yeah. If you think about it. That's a great comparison. I mean, they both do. He sets Sansa aside. He could have had that start, girl. I'm glad he didn't.

I am, too, but Tyrion thinks, you know, she could be a great queen to you. She's much better at this than you are. And that's saying something and yeah the the the fact of the matter is like they had hoped to have a couple more years right like this war was gonna take at least another year if not two so she figured he wouldn't be marrying this fray girl until age 17 age 18 after the war it does feel like things are moving so quickly because here he is marrying another girl and it's age 16 i understand by the phrase we're now nervous they were right to be nervous they're like that boy wants pussy and nothing else

well i guess they were like you know he's just gonna do what all the other lords do and get it and hit it and quit it but he did not quit it he quit life instead she realizes that rob was very clever to have her forgive him preemptively publicly she is now both parts annoyed and impressed at her son and she shoves her emotions down taking jane's hands kissing her a welcome saying i, I have a new daughter. She thanks Catelyn. Jane thanks Catelyn and promises to be a good and true wife to Rob, as well as a wise queen. And Catelyn's like, oh, fuck, that's right.

You're now queen. And she's pretty, though, she thinks. Chestnut curls, a heart-shaped face, slender but with good hips, depending on what book you read. She would have no trouble bearing Rob children. Sibel takes Kat's hands as well, sharing her respects, but then being like, we're pretty tired,

we had a pretty long journey, so could we, you know, get back to our chambers? Rob gives them all the info to get accommodated, and kisses Jane goodbye. Edmure decides to take them to the steward to help rollem asks do i have to go too i'm your squire and rob laughs saying i don't need a squire right now rollem his older brother leads him out and finally cat's able to ask rob all right what the

fuck rollem is adorable i mean like there's something about the uruification of rob squires that i just love oliver yeah they are good phrase that oliver is a good phrase so is perwin yeah rollem must be is probably a good uh westerling as well and agreed they have to tell them they were like you know rob rob did quite well addressing himself for 16 years until you came along and rollem is like absolutely floored by this revelation it's kind of cute it's like he wants to do a good job you know you gotta

respect the like three members of the family that aren't in on it no speaking of uh members that in or are not in on it. Your wife is lovely, Catelyn said when they were out of earshot, and the Westerlings seem worthy. The Lord Gawain is Tywin Lannister's sworn man, is he not? Yes. Jason Malister captured him in the Whispering Wood and has been holding him at Seagard for ransom.

Of course I'll free him now, though he may not wish to join me. We wed without his consent, I fear, and this marriage puts him in dire peril. The crag is not strong. For the love of me, Jane may lose all. And you have lost the phrase. His wits told all. He knows. He knows. You know, that right there might really be what we were waiting for, right?

Like Gowan, Gowan chillin' imprisoned. Yeah. Yeah, he's not going to be happy about his baby girl being given away before he had a say. And I'm sure the Lannisters aren't gonna be happy with him. Until they are. Yeah. Yeah, and everyone else also going along with it, like, even though

I don't know. Seems very suspicious. This is all just weird timing. Weird timing, guys. Well, Catelyn, of course, understands the desertion that she saw in the yard now in full she gets it and she's like so how many swords come with this jane westerling rob his response 50 50 good men i just want to say speaking of things about ednure

it was so rude that she's like i guess all those frays left because edmure did something wrong to offend them i'm like excuse me excuse me he's being kind of a dick you know i mean i don't agree but i think it's sibling pettiness for sure also no one tells her shit so what the fuck is she supposed to think yeah i would never do anything wrong byman tells her everything except for the one big thing he's like that's it that's the line gotta go bye uh can't tell you about the betrayal also though to be fair i'm like oh yeah it's better she didn't hear that from byman yeah no that's true he did not want to be the person to tell her at all oh absolutely he's like i'm only here for hot gossip, not being involved in the family hot gossip.

Very style, honestly. Smart, smart of him. Smart. No one gets hurt that way. So earlier you talked a little bit about how Robert Baratheon was broken from the rebellion and that you know sink or swim and he did not swim he sinked and Rob here interesting just like his namesake he's married himself into a family from a different part of the realm here the Westerlands with high ambitions right we know Sibyl Spicer has high ambitions they aren't quite as rich in comparison in comparison to the Lannisters but nonetheless ambitious like obviously Walder Frey would sell you out for a pickle but Sibyl Spicer is up there

too and there's no background check on this right like there was no background check whatsoever Rob was just like well now I'm married and there may be one or two good Lannisters out there right and a couple good Westerlings but but marrying Jane is, from a military and king strategy, not good. Like, I'm fine with Jane Westerling. I like the girl enough, but this is not a good thing that he did. Yeah, it was pretty dumb.

It's not an upgrade, you know what I mean? We'll talk here about why he did it, but what's worse is he's seeing in person in action real time consequences to his dumb actions uh and cat though she's being so even keel so i have to respect and give it up for catalan here because i know if it was my mother she'd be screaming what the fuck did you just do she'd be. It should be clouting my ass in the ear, you know, about it. I'm sure of it. But Catelyn is actually being like in her head, this is inappropriate.

It's not going to make things more productive. It's not going to make things better. So I will simply just ask him what happened. And I really respect that. I do, especially because she's like avoiding. I don't want to make him mad since he just forgave me. But it is also obvious uh from this conversation Rob carries a lot of that anger and the consequences of his action forward and projects it onto Edmure like completely from here he takes all of the emotions that come from this conversation and he ends up pushing them on Edmure. Absolutely. Rob, tell your issues to a therapist,

not put them on Edmure. Edmure's not your little voodoo doll for it. Oh my god. I thought you were going to say a booty call. I was like, what? Whoa, no, that's Shane Westerling, but then he wifed her. And I mean, I think it's funny

that you said that your mom would be so... I mean, yeah, my mom's first inclination for things, I guess, is briefly being like, what the said that your mom would be so... I mean, yeah, my mom's first inclination for things, I guess, is believing of what the fuck. But I do think if I did this, she wouldn't be mad. She'd be like, you know, I'm so glad that she got herself right in the eyes of the Lord. She's really hoping for me to elope, I think. Oh my God. You know, at least, you know, you're saying something like about him living with with the consequences rob doesn't have to live with the consequences of his actions

because he dies um that's it that was a joke that i wanted to make that was it you're very special to me i want you to know this i also wanted to commend you you have a lot of interesting uh turns of turns of phrase regarding food like uh walter fray selling you for a pickle or rob trading for a cracker or something thank you maybe i'm just hungry you know i was like is chloe hungry i haven't had real food in a while long story short listeners i know some of our friends in our discord know but i had some like dental work done and i just haven't been able to eat real food for a while. So just know, these are my heart's desires.

Crackers, pickles, even. And not just like, you've had some real food. These are very specific, crispy, crunchy foods. So I see where you're at. I see where your head's at. I'm analyzing you now. You're the text. Wow, wow.

Clonealysis. With Eliana. you know you're the text wow clone analysis with eliana well also with rob who says that jane is bright and beautiful and kind well catelyn thinks real sadly of the all right so now they have like 50 men and she's like but what about the 4 000 knights sent from house ray they're gone those are gone now and she thinks in distress, as you were pointing out, right? She's like, those first knee-jerk reactions, and she only holds it all inside. She's like, how could you do this? How could you be so young? That's what she thinks. But you know, she comes down and she knows it's not going to make a very productive conversation. And instead, she asks Rob to tell her, you know, how this came to be. And I really do love that this is how Catelyn responds to the situation,

because obviously, obviously this has been a huge mistake. But Catelyn's question is in many ways, I think, really gets to the heart of what I think is happening in the story overall of A Song of Ice and Fire, and how there are mistakes made by other povs right like not all of them are good liza herself is of course she's not a pov but she's an example right of how did this come to be and i mean yeah people do stupid shit but it's also sometimes worth looking at like what are the circumstances that lead people to these choices? And clearly, George is very interested in watching that progression.

And when Kat first sees Rob again earlier this chapter, she knows Rob knows what she has done. But it's this great corollary because what she first asks him is, did they tell you my reasons? And so this is her returning that same kindness to him rather than punishing him and putting more stress on trying to understand where people are coming from why they did what they did versus uh punishing them you know until you know she dies then she's like fuck fuck your reasons sword or what what is it sword or noose i forgot what it is sword or noose sword or noose all right i don't care about your reasons anymore. Yeah, the time for reasons was Catalin to Asos. And I mean, it's interesting because understanding reasons, right?

Understanding how this came to be is part of what led her to be like, alright, maybe we'll take this risk on Jaime. Maybe he's not so much of a piece of shit after all she said yeah yeah and i mean no one ever asked jamie how this came to be jamie how did this come to be this king with the knife in his back actually it was in the front to his credit it was it was a little of both he like looked him in the face but the guy tried to run away and you just you take what swings you can you know yeah yeah that's what it was when he ran he stabbed yeah had to remember never forget a good stabbing in this series you know uh rob decides to tell his mother his story

and he starts with i took her castle she took my heart i'm shaking my head. Well, Rob says comforted, but it was sex. And canonically, I just have to say, like,ane fucked him well rob says comforted but it was sex and canonically i just have to say like jane fucked him like that's canonically what happened she took care of him he was in no fucking mood like his arm was festering dude there's no way jane it was jane jane is officially she topped i just have to put it out there oh yeah did you not think about this like you know jane was riding that she was riding that so good for you jane that was also her first time too i mean i can't imagine and like that's that's that's difficult for her too you know being like i don't she doesn't know what she's doing no one wants to be on top their first time shit yeah it's actually you know and obviously this

is a trope right like this is playing off the trope of like the soldier being nursed back to health right and then of course there's the grief of you know he points out the grief of uh losing brandon rickon as part of it but also i mean i i just want to say it reminds me a little of gilly and sam right gilly also topped yes yes that's a great parallel actually to gilly and sam with the grief going on after amen wow i didn't think about that wow gilly oh i didn't even think about the circumstances either i was just thinking about the topic but you're right yeah that this is what they do afterwards um sex is for death something yeah only only have sex we fuck we lose we fuck that's that's like the circle of life dude that's all us humans do we literally do like people die and we fuck and the world fucking moves on wow the summer islanders do kind of think of it like that, but a lot more optimistically

than you just put it. Yeah, but that's not fair because I don't think of anything optimistically. Well, speaking of that, we have a line of, Catlin did not need to be told what sort of comfort Jane Westerling had offered her son. And you wet her the next day. He looked

her in the eyes, and miserable all at once yes mom i fucked and then i got married i got my nut i got married things are actually kind of bad what a poor bastard dude i feel so bad for rob right now uh man he says it was the honorable thing to do cat reminds him that's not gonna appease lord fray rob then says he's made a bunch of everything but the battles and basically tells her you were right about theon i should have listened winterfell would probably still stand and my brothers too cat offers that he couldn't have known that though baling grayjoy might still

have chanced a war, whether they sent Theon or not. Yeah, that's for sure. The last time he reached for a crown, it cost him two sons. He might have thought it a bargain to lose only one this time. What a line. What a great line about Baelin.

Because he does. It's so interesting. It's also so interesting in the context of this chapter right where he's willing to sacrifice this one son that he hardly knows who's been prisoner for so long right especially like in the circumstances of here where calvin's children are being held hostage and she's willing to not risk to get the crown but risk the whole crown risk the entire war yeah yeah i think that's really apparent in this line that she's willing to like go the distance and that balen doesn't give a rat's ass about his squidly children well i think it was too painful for him

right like obviously like obviously he loves his kids when he's by them and has been given the chance right like the deaths of their older brothers hit them hard we discussed it during the theon chapters of being like you know maybe theon had a point of being traumatized by the deaths of his older brothers and then being uh sent to live with the family that he associates with the destruction of his home whatever and balan just like like I think it was too painful for him right to maybe also on top of losing his

two sons losing his last one I mean it was so painful it broke his wife and he clearly loves Asha like that's not a question so he was capable of it so I think it's just like for him he took that grief very differently than the

way caitlin does caitlin deals with the grief by clinging even harder to try and bring her family together whereas balan just shuts down yeah i don't know where that uh balan analysis came from i'm sorry it's okay yeah every once in a while you gotta get the squid out girl just gotta break it out you know get a little squidly with it. It's all good. Squidly, squidly, squidly. Heliana, it's your podcast. We all just live in it, okay? Not you. It's also your podcast. Oh, that's true.

You survive it. You survive it. I am a survivor of this. Maybe that's next year merch, now that you say it. I survived Girls Gone Canon, and all I got was this t-shirt. She asks Rob what happened with the phrase. He told her he thought he could make amends

with Steverin and Ryman, and even maybe Blackwalder. Blackwalder was like, my sisters wouldn't hate marrying a widower, and of course Rob could not have that. That was very dishonorable. Rob said he'd have killed them if Jane hadn't begged him to show mercy. He knows he's offended the phrase, duh.

Although he really didn't mean to when he fucked this other woman and married her. Stevron had died for him. Olivar had asked to stay with Rob even. But the Great John urged Rob to attack the phrase as they left. Though both Rob and Catelyn both agree that would have been the end of you, man, if you attacked the Freys, so it's a good thing you didn't. Rob mentions he thought they could arrange marriages for other Frey daughters. Like, you know, we'll just get Wendell Manderly to wed one. And the Grey John wishes to be wed again.

And he's like, if only Lord Walder would be reasonable. But Cat reminds him, like, Lord Walder is anything but reasonable. He is proud. And he wanted to be grandfathered to a king. And these men mentioned, they're not really prime northern real estate, you know? He was hoping for, like, a first-time wedding, you know, on both sides. You know? He was hoping for like a first time wedding, you know, on both sides. He was hoping like just an innocent, beautiful teenage king and a new fray queen thing.

Yeah. He would have taken non-innocent teenage king. Yeah. As long as he's got teenage king, you know? Exactly. I don't know. I understand that. I do.

I mean, when you go to the store and you're gonna buy a Corvette and then you come back and they've sold the Corvette out from under you, it's kind of shitty. Okay? I get it. Yeah. Kat says, not only have you broken your oath, you've slighted the honor of the twins by choosing a bride from a lesser house.

What she's saying is that Rob Stark has hit seashell bottom. He has hit rock bottom. Bikini bottom. Like, you thought the phrase were bad. Buckle up, buddy. Roberto. He defends the Westerlings, right?

He's like, they have ancient blood better than the phrase. He even notes that there was once a Queen Jane Westerling, wife of Maegor, which I'm guessing no one told Robb how that marriage went. Catelyn explains, this only makes it worse rob what you're saying that you chose a lesser house the other houses already looked down on the frays especially older ones and they've been insulted again and again yeah you know john aaron wouldn't foster any of fray's grandsons and hoster wouldn't marry one to edmure and then something probably with the Blackfish, right? They probably tried to arrange something, but the Blackfish right now

he's just like interesting, very juicy conversation everyone, we should talk privately. Not with crying eyes. Yes. Cat notices finally what was missing in the room, by the way the way earlier earlier on she felt like

something was amiss and she realizes Grey Wind isn't here who should always be by Rob yeah that makes excuses right he's like oh Jane's anxious around him and Grey Wind doesn't like her uncle Sir Ralph okay well that seems suspicious red flags everywhere I agree first of all they're adorable and fluffy except for I guess if they're killing people whatever I kind of get it but also I don't anyway Kat says alright Rob you must send Sir Rolf away at once

but Rob says but Jane loves her uncle and he's also a pretty good knight and we kind of are short of those now that you know I majorly fucked up. And Kat says, I don't want another. I told you so. Like, with Happ and with Theon.

But I did tell you so. So just do this and find a way to keep this man away from you. And Rob says, okay, well, Greywyn can't, like, vet every single person. And, like, inside, like, for a moment, Kat's like, actually, that's not a bad idea. person and like inside like for a moment cat's like actually that's not a bad idea but uh she explains these wolves are from the old gods for all of you after all the numbers were very exact and rob counters like okay but what about the wolf for john then um also i was literally there and found them don't explain like the wolves to me and then rob finally confides that actually my faith in the wolves being so important to us has waned since finding out that despite having the wolves

theon still killed my brothers and rob also then points out well i i can take care of myself i'm 16 now and he does eventually though acquiesce and agrees to find a different job for Sir Rolf. Just a quiet Catlin. Man, this partner with all the gossip fleeting around the Seven Kingdoms about Rob being a warg. I'd love to read it.

It seems like he's feeling a lot here from his body language, right? Like, bristling about the wolves and how he kind of is, he himself is kind of anxious in the explanation of where Grey Wind is. This is something that's running very strongly throughout the Starks in A Storm of Swords, right?

With Arya, Jon, even Sansa's lack of wolf, Bran. Rob is, I mean, I think he's probably ashamed of the connection right now. He's ashamed that the wolves couldn't save his brothers like they thought that they would. And honestly, probably afraid of the connection, right? Like this is kind of a very scary new thing. Grey Wind has become more violent over time.

And it almost feels like Rob's distancing himself from Grey Wind and from being a Stark emotionally, right? We see both of the Stark sisters kind of had to sever themselves from their wolf demons at certain points. Rob kind of might be going through that confusion and who he is and what he's fighting for right now. It also feels kind of significant that he calls out his mother about Jon's wolf, right, counting as one of these gifts, and she ignores it.

But it feels like Jon is who he has framed in his mind more than anyone right now a bastard boy with nothing but a dire wolf alone in the cold much like rob's fornication with jane could make right if he fucked jane what's to come when he's gone and nothing remains but his bastard blood he created and maybe even his wolf and these themes are tied right back in throughout the next chapter, which is a Jon chapter, which is where he is being slightly convinced to lay with Ygritte freely by the other free folk and by her. And by chapter's end, Ygritte actually lies for Jon, defending him to Mance and the others, but tells him he must send his wolf away and that

she'll be sleeping with him tonight. Directly parallel to this, that he is sending his wolf away and that she'll be sleeping with him tonight directly parallel to this that he is sending his wolf away for his lady wife jane john and rob are both falling in love and learning the lesson of honoring or dishonoring their vows breaking their oaths all throughout a storm of swords but for different reasons and i think there's almost something of a wedding theme going on here right in general with j Jane and with Ygritte. And Sansa's wedding to Tyrion isn't too far off. Her chapter is after Jon's to get her dress fitted. Lies and lace, right, is what she's covered in.

And that's her further killing that wolf within her. It feels right now like Rob is killing the wolf inside. And I think that's an interesting comparison by bringing sansa into this because it feels like uh i mean first of all there are ways that she's hanging over this chapter and that one of the reasons why uh jamie doesn't go is to save her but also besides the proximity of this chapter is um there are ways in which jane westerling right clearly reminds cat just a little of her daughter. And, you know, I also think it's such a great and important point that, as you said, Rob bringing up the wolves in this way and about Jon also shadowing over this chapter,

because I absolutely agree. And I know this isn't the first time we've said it. It's not the first time anyone's said it, that john is you know raw who rob thinks of when he's like well i guess the honorable thing to do now is to marry this girl in case i got her pregnant because clearly like you know he's like this is what dad would have done and i'm like that's literally the opposite of what your dad did like he came home with a bastard that's literally the opposite of what your dad did. Like he came home with a bastard. That's like literally the exact opposite. And, and I think it's really interesting for him to bring that up in this way

after the previous cat chapter, because as we pointed out last chapter and in the last episode, cat is learning more about her father's faults at the age of 32. Kat is learning more about her father's faults at the age of 32, whereas Rob has kind of always known his mother's shortcomings. And not only that, he's been quite ashamed of his mother's faults. And we've been seeing it again and again, that we can't ignore Kat's treatment of John and wave it away. And part of that is because Rob certainly didn't, right? Rob acknowledged that fault. And it's one of the first things that he asks of John in that first book when John leaves Bran's room, right?

He's like, how did Kat treat you? Not like that, because he wasn't calling his mom Kat. But at age 15 and 16, Rob knew his parents weren't perfect, right? That's quite a big thing for a 15 and 16 year old. That's around the time like a lot, most people find that out not cat i guess it's true it's true it is like that's that's a typical part of the adolescent you know progression or whatever and and especially because rob saw that his parents actions and he saw it most immediately with Catelyn and Jon, like, he saw that those actions hurt people that he loves. And so Rob really internalized the shame that a bastard would carry in their household.

And so as we move towards the Red Wedding, the story of, you know, how this came to be, right? That includes the Winterfell household. Like, how this came to be when it comes to Rob and Jane, it goes all the way back. This really, really ties Catelyn's story all the way, all the way back into, again, Robert's rebellion. All these past 16 years of

Rob and John's life and Catelyn's life, where her treatment of John is part of what convinces Rob to break one set of oaths to make another. And it's part of what convinces Rob to break one set of oaths to make another and it's part of this whole the whole equation but I will say another thing that's

brought up here in the responses he makes to Catelyn is he points out Theon Greyjoy right and that's something else that I think also stands out in connection to the previous chapter of you know yeah Theon's not really mentioned last chapter, besides, you know, maybe like killing her sons, allegedly. He kills two other kids instead. Amazing. Not him, technically, but kind of him. Anyways, but Theon Greyjoy is a ward, right? That they kept fed in their house, who

turned against their house and betrayed them, as peter bailish was a ward to house tully that unbeknownst to them has very much led to the downfall of cat's house that's very true i didn't really think about that as a parallel for those two before but that's that is true in her eyes well i don't think she sees it yet no but she sees the theon part yeah but you know cat's not a rereader like us she's not a rereader i don't know she might be a rereader that's true she doesn't know about the most important character yet though the plot yeah the plot's okay well for a moment cat sees her son as a little boy once more compared to before after hearing these thoughts and these worries.

They reach Hoster's private audience chamber, and it's Hoster, Kat, Edmure, and Brynden Blackfish. They all immediately start nagging and gaslighting Edmure, saying the farce was for Edmure so he wouldn't be shamed. Apparently, they think his victory at the Fords was folly. Good men died to defend those Fords, uncle. Edmureure sounded outraged he questions if rob only gets to win victories and rob pulls rank he says that edmure was only supposed to hold river run and they just keep blaming edmure for fighting tywin when they wanted tywin to go west they had this great plan being on horse while the lannister host is on foot too bad they didn't tell edmure this plan they had a whole chase idea they were going to trap him while stannis took king's landing great plan being on horse while the Lannister host is on foot too bad they didn't tell Edmure this plan they had a whole chase idea they were gonna trap him while Stannis took King's Landing

and Edmure rightfully points out he's like but you never told me and Rob is all like I told you to hold river on said Rob what part of that command did you fail to comprehend and then Brendan piles on all right you know I know we're talking about Brendan Blackfish earlier but this was not cool uncle Brendan especially because you were supposed to be Edmure's like nice uncle all right and then he just piles on explaining yeah yeah Tywin like ended up turning because of you and that allowed him to join with Mathis Rowan and Randall Charlie and then combined with Mace Tyrell and all his barges and I'm like

everyone needs to chill it is a little unfair right and I think it could be both is the more nuanced part of it like you guys didn't give Edmure real directions or tell him what you hope to accomplish with your plan

although during war like i guess that's part of the point is that you're supposed to just hang on for that and take what orders you're given but men get hungry for glory when they're locked behind walls with no action and they're not being told like why they're doing it like the worst thing you can do is not tell these men why they're doing it and i do think worst thing you can do is not tell these men why they're doing it. And I do think Edmure was hungry for that comfort and glory, especially in the shadow of his dying father, to kind of cement his legacy a little more. And everyone is team, you know, Rob, team Rob Rob Winterfell, but this is also Edmure's people, his home. When Hoster dies, Edmure is accountable for this land.

And this land is honestly super fertile land. It's super important to the economics of the Kingdom of the North and Riverlands, right? These people that are trying to rebel. And newsflash, a long winter is coming to the north. They could really use these lands being fertile and having a harvest. As we hear in Jaime's chapters as we move forward that's pretty much over right they barely have a chance to get a last harvest in now and you know obviously rob has a lot of pressure on him too 16 year old boy king but admira's got

a lot of pressure going on on him too holding this shit together, this coalition. I just think maybe they needed to communicate. My god, communication people. I agree. And, you know, Edmure's dad is dying. And, yeah, yeah, I agree, like, with everything that you said, and you know, I don't know why.

Maybe over the years I've just become more sympathetic to, like, Edmure, because I'm also just like, yeah, of course he wanted comfort and glory, but i don't think that that's so bad because like i mean so do many of the other men in this series right we look at renly's camp and that was like all they fucking cared about and like not in the best way whereas as you pointed out and you're was really interested in trying to protect his home in a clash of kings cat one brinton and cat are talking and they're talking about the torched villages and the riverlands and the women being raped and maimed and all the dead children who are going unburied and cat points out like that edmure will

rage to hear it like he cares legitimately and i think think that, you know, Rob isn't the only one being immature here. Like, I do think it's wrong that the Blackfish piles on him. Like, these are your people too. Like, what the fuck? And this exchange kind of really goes to show how Rob, even though he looked like a man out there, that was a performance, right?

Because this is immature. He's not going to take the fall for this. As you said, there's a lack of communication. But I mean, a good leader communicates well, and he's pinning his failure to communicate on someone who's below him, right? A leader takes responsibility, and Rob is not taking responsibility here. And they also think that there's an understandable temptation on his part and not anyone's part, right, to hold plans close to your chest because you're afraid of what happens if they get out. But I don't know that that's really what happened here. I don't know that Rob really had this plan or not, or he was just like, oh no, that's what ended up

happening. But thankfully we do have another example in this very same series of someone making the same mistake of not communicating their plans well, but that this person apologizes and asks for forgiveness. And that is in Doran Martell. As we know, Doran Martell has had many plans for a long ass time and has only told them to some people. Right. many plans for a long-ass time and has only told them to some people, right? But he shared none of his plans with his daughters, nor his niece,

nor his many nieces. And though Arianne does receive punishment for her own faults in acting out, which makes sense, you know, a man did die for all of it, and the girl was injured. A very important little girl. Doran does realize his own faults in failing to

communicate, and he's the one who makes those moves to make amends and then to try and move things forward. He takes responsibility for that, at least. But then again, though, Rob's failure as a leader here, right? It's not out of character for Rob.'ve pointed it out before but he does have a tendency to sometimes blame others for his failures for example during the time that Rob was out hunting with Bran and Theon

all the way back in A Game of Thrones when Theon saves Bran's life I mean it was a gamble but he shoots that arrow and then Rob calls him an ass. And Theon rightfully points out, like, you should be thanking me, alright? And Rob points out, like, all these what-ifs. He's like, what if you had missed the shot? What if you'd only wounded him?

What if you'd made his hand jump or hit Bran instead? For all you knew, the man might have been wearing a breastplate. All you could see was the back of his cloak. What would have happened to my brother then? Did you ever think of that, Greyjoy? Theon's smile was gone. He gave a sullen shrug and began to pull his arrows from the ground one by one. Rob glared at his guardsmen. Where were you?

He demanded of them. I was sure you were close behind us. The men traded unhappy glances. We were following, my lord, said Quint. The youngest of them, his beard a soft brown fuzz. Only first we waited for Maester Lewin and his ass, begging your pardons, and then, well, as it were, he glanced over at Theon and quickly looked away, abashed. I spied a turkey, Theon said, annoyed by the question. How was I to know that you'd leave the boy alone? And so Rob turns his head to look at Theon once more. And I just think, you know, that's your brother. That's your brother, Rob. Like, you should have been there. Why weren't you watching him?

Yeah. yeah i i never really thought about that one before but it does come back up to uh does come back up to the surface and you know that he immediately says to the guards why weren't you there that too yeah if he wanted them specifically by bran like they obviously all assumed rob would be there for clear reasons. and getting mad about the outcomes right like they had hoped on a prayer that edmure would hold off tywin and without telling edmure anything else that they were going to be able to herd tywin to the west and that's like that's a pretty big chance to take yeah and i think that's a great point because that's literally i think very comparable to this right that was a big chance that they were taking in many ways and to an extent what edmure did is actually, by many accounts, considered a success.

Right? Like, Rob didn't know that's what would happen. But what Edmure did was a success in defending the homes of the Riverlanders. What Theon did here, that's also a success. It was a gamble on his part, too. Same as Edmure's thing was a gamble, too. Definitely. So, well, 16-year-olds.

What can you do? What can you do? Not make them king. That's actually something you could do. That's true. That is. Kat now remembers Renly's court, and she thinks about it, and she's like, all those men would have come with the Reach forces.

And she wonders to herself, if you had to fall into a woman's arms my son why couldn't they have been marjorie terrell's yeah and she especially wonders like maybe gray wind actually would have liked her maybe the dog would have liked her probably not let's be real but i don't know this is this is the only au i ever give way to like Like, I don't know. I feel like some AUs are cool, but then I'm like, I don't know how I feel about them. But this one is the AU. Like, if I had to think of one AU I would love to see happen, one alternate universe, it would be Margaery, Rob,

because then they'd win. It solves it all. It solves all the goddamn problems. And it's such a pity that the tarals are like shitty fake leftists right total just fakes who decide to marry into old kingdom money they need to take that rose out of their twitter handle is what i'm trying to say it's not even that they already had their own money and they're like what if we made more money with our money yeah gotta keep well i mean that's the other thing they gotta keep their their stores flowing, you know? They gotta have a sacrifice every couple generations.

Yeah, but as you said, it would solve all their problems. This is like that, what, Crusader Kings Masterplay. I don't play the game, but I assume it's kind of like that. It's absolutely like that, absolutely. Edmure tries to make up for everything because he's now been fully, you know, gaslighted and manipulated into thinking this is his fault. And he's like, alright,

well, maybe I can lead the next van into battle. And Catelyn thinks for a men's brother or for glory. And I'm like, that seems super unfair. It's not very nice. I mean, yeah. We're all thinking it, but very nice. I mean, yeah. We're all thinking it, but my god.

I mean, yeah. I mean, an aspect of it is for glory, but, like, holy shit. Like, he deserved none of this, and he's like, well, he's trying to do something. Right? And I'm like, damn. Anyway. Rob says there will be another fight when Joffrey weds it's all right there there won't be no none of you are going to be alive for that not even joffrey um cat is like wait hold up your priority

should be to go back and retake winterfell from theon and she points out your first duty is to defend your own people win back winterfell and hang Theon in a crow's cage to die slowly. Or else put off that crown for good, Rob, for men will know that you are no true king at all. And Rob actually for once does not like her tone very much and responds a bit defensively, thinking he wanted to when he heard that Winterfell had a, you know, Winterfell fell. But he never dreamed that Theon would do what he did and cat says this is no time for regrets all that remains is vengeance this is only time for action cat says free some more prisoners go wild just saying uh you know it really sucks because this is the right well there's let me preface

this there's no right move right like there's not a right move here but getting your home back that's under control by basically some enemy that's kind of important for the whole northern campaign you know the north and a little bit it would have slaughtered those riverlands though i mean if they up and leave it will slaughter the riverlands as we see there's no right move and it only gets harder as rob is learning to his very dismay and i do think that we're getting a good turn for catalan here she didn't speak a lot of vengeance up to now, right? She spoke against it many times. However, it's always been lurking.

Always been lurking for her in the background. And really interestingly is, like, up until this point she's mostly been against vengeance except for bashing Cersei's skull in because she wants her babies back. But vengeance isn't brought up by Cat after this. It's brought up by cat after this it's brought

up by rob through karstark in the next chapter but after that the last time catalan speaks of vengeance is interestingly when she's you know dying at the red wedding when she begs and she says let him go and i swear we will forget this forget all you've done here. I swear it by the old gods and new. We will take no vengeance, she says. And it almost reads just so sad, right? That the Starks thought for a hot second they could play that same game. They could take vengeance. They could go for vengeance. Canolin, at this point, right here, she just said,

There's no time for that. There's only time for vengeance. For what Theon's done to Winterfell, for what's happened to Winterfell. This is kind of a changing point for Kat, I think, in the story that she is now a little more open to vengeance after this chapter. Yeah, I think that's a great point, that she's open to it more as more things are taken from her, more of her family is saved from her. That's the real thing that I think really triggers it for kat and as you pointed out she has always really admitted to relishing the opportunity to take vengeance against cersei right right from the start in a game of thrones uh she's pointed out she would prefer peace but if given the chance for vengeance she would choose cersei and choking her out and

yeah theons just kind of joined her list which feels like a very very aria sort of move on her part and you know i agree it sucks like this decision would make the riverlands more vulnerable but i also think that she's right in that rob does kind of have to go back and take the North again. And not being a military expert here, I'm not really sure how much of a difference it makes on an actual military tactic level, but on an overall political level, it just looks bad to have lost your seat in your home. If you want to read more about Rob's military campaign, to have lost your seat in your home if you want to read more about like rob's military campaign absolutely like check out brendan b fish's uh essays they are classic and those are those were my first forays into jeff's writing way back then on the reddits and i mean it is like as cat

says it is rob's first duty to go back and defend his own people and home because then what the fuck else did they go to war for like didn't they go to war to protect the north and the rights of the northern people didn't they go to war because they wouldn't bow to any other kings and now they're letting the north just be taken by the gray joys and i also think that this all ties back to the choice that stanis makes within the end of this very same book. He goes to the north to defend the people that he should rule by supporting the Night's Watch, defending against the Free Folk. That's what a king should do, defend their people. And, I mean, Edmure does that, right?

I'm not saying Edmure's a king. But he's defending his people in the Riverlands. That's what Stannis tries to live up to as an ideal and rob is failing to do that right he's more concerned with his personal honor and with jane's personal honor than he is protecting the north he's forgotten all of that he's then forgotten his oaths to the frays and then forgotten his own oaths and responsibility to his people, and then out of the guilt to his one brother at the Wall, and the others out of grief for the other brother that he lost, that betrayed him and his family.

He definitely thought of Theon as a brother. And you're talking about the Red Wedding wedding and i think the big change at the red wedding is you know or that we'll see and we can discuss more then is as you pointed out like cat's cat's like we're not going to take vengeance if you just let my child go but he doesn't and you know she might have been willing to murder Walder at another point, but she doesn't usually want to take action against innocents, right? And that's why the murder of the Lannister children is so horrible, right? Versus killing Jaime. I mean, Jaime's death guilty for a lot of things yeah but at the red wedding cat instead kills like this random tertiary person jingle bell who's innocently caught in the fray uh and kills him and then

of course later on she kills everyone else yes yes can't wait for that truly more more fray dot why not i'm not afraid of it afraid yeah it's kind of like also how are you gonna retake the north though right now yeah and that's the question well also how the fuck are they gonna get there like literally and that's now that you've just lost four thousand men in the way back the westerlings yeah and literally the way back is closed literally because the twins literally closed the toll because you can't pay the toll troll to get up north that's uh yeah you really fucked it rob i mean i get it like we said we've all been there you know we've all been there but fucking not for a kingdom though you know not for a fucking kingdom not my fucking fucking for a fucking kingdom i know right

well it sure felt like that for some people no it must have felt i hope that orgasm was good rob i'm sure it was quick jesus the last news that they have to discuss is Roderick making his way back. Defeated Ironmen by Torrin Square and about to take Winterfell, but they've had no word since then. Probably because of the Boltons, because, you know, we're knowledgeable as rereaders. Rob also points out the Riverlands can't abandon their people, but Kat says they can watch their own, but you need to take back the North. their people, but Kat says they can watch their own, but you need to take back the north. Edmure asks, how would you get there?

The Iron Men have the sea and Moat Cailin. Rob says they're gonna win back the Freys and something must work for his pride, for Walder Freys' pride. Not something, says Katalin. Someone. Blood sacrifice! Except it's a lot of blood. admire you're up batter up we're gonna offer you up after a big old speech what a hopeful ending right like this is the last time to feel

hopeful like they have a chance they don't they don't they start falling apart even more right they're like oh we can we can cobble it all back together with some scotch tape not even duct tape scotch tape uh but yeah because you know in a surprise twist when they say someone they don't know this yet but someone's gonna turn out to be rob he is he's gonna have to give a big old speech and uh apologize and it's gonna be awkward to be like i'm sorry i'm not gonna fuck you I fucked another girl yeah then they're all just like no fuck that

I'm gonna kill you so it all goes not according to plan yeah it does not go according to Keikaku and yeah so a lot happens this chapter.

Yeah, a lot of plot. The last couple weeks were pretty simple, right? You have Catelyn kind of just being depressed in the castle, dealing with things in the castle while Rob's gone. But this chapter is, gets it on the ground running, right? Chapter one is a little slow, but Chapter 2 has a lot of plot. And it is plot-heavy moving forward. I mean, these chapters don't get simpler in A Storm of Swords, where we had some, honestly, some simpler chapters in A Clash of Kings and A Game of Thrones. Oh, God, do you remember the Game of Thrones, Catalan days, everyone? Simpler times. They were simpler times.

Shorter chapters, simpler times. But now, no more simpler times but now no more we have arrived in the middle of the storm and catalan three it's gonna be a little crazy a little crazy little treason going on and plot just a little just a little treason as a treat as a treat yeah as a treat like a pickle or a cracker oh my god well we'll get there we'll get there you know as you said the ball is rolling now so are we into all the way up until the end all of this yes and you, we are so happy to have you all on the ride with us. We've been getting some great messages and emails and tweets of note, and we would love it if you sent us your thoughts on this chapter, this episode, or whatever else you're thinking about. Your art, your animals.

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know how you do it every week every week i don't know how you do it every week every week i don't i don't do it every week give it up for eliana at home right now everyone listening and you know another place you can get a special private rss feed of ours is at patreon.com slash girls gone canon patreon.com slash girls gone canon hey if you're in the stranger tier or above the five dollar and above tier you will get on in there and get a special episode at the end of the month on rob stark's pov in a song of ice and fire a quick ride with rob stark before the young wolf goes down womp womp uh and not only that but you can join us on discord if you're in the thunder tier and above the thunder tier and above.

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bottom rock bottom but it is interesting right because there are they in bikini bottom and Theon is squidward it's a thought interesting okay bye