Girls Gone Canon Cast - ASOIAF Episode 138 - ASOS Catelyn III

Episode Date: September 17, 2021

Robb Stark learns that it's hard to get ahead in the game of thrones. Catelyn watches her son wrestle with the questions of kingdom, honor, treason, and family when Rickard Karstark joins the ranks of people who are into killing kids.  --- Eliana's twitter: https://twitter.com/arhythmetric Eliana's reddit account: https://www.reddit.com/user/glass_table_girl] Eliana's blog: https://themanyfacedblog.wordpress.com/ Chloe's twitter: https://twitter.com/liesandarbor Chloe's blog: www.liesandarborgold.com Intro by Anton Langhage

Hello, and welcome to Girls Gone Canon Read A Song Of Ice And Fire, episode 138, Catalin 3,an 3 in a storm of swords i am one of your hosts chloe and i am another one of your hosts eliana it's you know it's a hell of a time we just made a vow i made a vow eliana to be uplifting i think we can do it I legitimately think we can do it I don't we just gotta stay ahead of ourselves yeah keep our head on straight keep our heads on straight

and we can definitely do it today as we you know hang out with everyone this is the one where Lord Rickard dies everyone and the other seven people buckle up yeah and the kids and the kids and the

guards jesus jesus okay we're doing great we're doing great we're staying uplifted before we get into a storm of swords today let's do our housekeeping up top keep it neat keep it fast keep it secret keep it safe keep it secret keep it safe keep it secret keep it safe

if you're a patron in the stranger tier and above five us dollars and above you're gonna get a special episode at the very end of the month about rob stark is going to be girls gone canon covering rob stark's pov what does that mean that means we're gonna look at stuff through Robb's 15, 16 year old little wolf eyes. Absolutely. So, buckle up. It's gonna be sad. It's gonna be fun. Maybe we'll get hungry. Friends you made along the way. Yeah.

Hungry like the wolf. Yes. I'm Robb Stark. I'm gonna die and But that's not all that's happening here I'm gonna die but that's not all that's happening here in the month of September which is a very busy month

Eliana what's happening over on discord for our thunder tier and above patrons yeah so thunder tier and above patrons get access to our patreon discord and once a month we do a brunch slash happy hour. This month, it is going to be on

Sunday, September 26th from 1 to 3 p.m. Eastern Standard Time. Or Daylight Time. I don't know, Envy Switch. Anyway, I know that people care, but we're not. Eliana Time. E-T. Phone. Home.

Oh my god. E-T phone home E-T discord home Our theme Our theme this September As we transition from one season Into the next Is going to be Mythos Yeah Mythos Mythological lore

We are into lore You know I'm excited about it Really the reason why we want to go with Mythos, mythological, lore. We are into lore. You know, I'm excited about it. Really, the reason why we want to go with mythos is because I'm having a wedding reception, right? I had that beautiful Rhaegar Lyanna secret wedding this year. If you don't know, catch up. On Naboo. I got my love of my life in the woods, right? In Naboo, yes.

Anakin, you're tearing me apart. right in Naboo yes Anakin you're tearing me apart uh and I don't know we're doing a little wedding reception for some close friends this autumn and we're doing like Persephone theme we're doing myth a lot I'm gonna have pomegranates at those tables motherfucker maybe some golden apples if you're not careful so I don't know mythos feels right we We're gonna, yeah, we're gonna definitely eat some figs and have some lore. So Discord brunch slash happy hour this month will be Mythos themed. Bring your myths, bring your folklore. Bring your squid gods. Yeah.

Yeah. And afterwards, I'm so excited. We're ending early, right? We're ending at three. Yeah. Our friends from A Thousand Eyes and One podcast are doing their Wine on an Empty Stomach book club. Where they cover different... Book club.

Yeah. They've been... Last month was, like, really great. Last month for August, they did The City We Became by N.K. Jemisin. Well, I guess they kind of sorted it and set that for a few months earlier. And it's great because it's a book that's very much about New York City. And both of them have this perspective of living in New York. But this month's book is going to be The Ocean at the End of the Lane by Neil Gaiman.

And they'll be doing that stream about that book at 3 p.m. on Sunday, September 26th. Yes. So after you're done with brunch slash happy hour with us that Sunday, you are going to have to scoot on over to their YouTube channel, and we will link it below. Make sure you subscribe and check them out. I love those streams. They have fun.

They have a lot of fun and similar humor to us in some aspects, and I think they're just really funny gals. They are. They are. And, like, yeah, really great great streams so do check that out i have to go read that book but um in preparation yeah in preparation for that i read i read the city we became because they were doing it and saying yeah especially because i was really excited for them to do that so i highly highly recommend just any nk jemisin i think it's

just good genre approaching stuff there's so so many books, like, I'm forcing myself. There gets to a point where you're just reading Aeswaf and you have to force yourself out of it. You have to. I love Aeswaf, but there are just so many other amazing books in similar or asimilar genres to this

that rock, and you're gonna shut yourself off thinking of the Starks all the time if you don't read them. Absolutely, and like you know sometimes i want to yeah there are other worlds to visit right now i'm working through i didn't realize i think they're also reading stormlight archive so i'm making my way through that i know a couple of our friends have done that and uh i found out i didn't realize that the final expanse book is coming out in two months so i might finally get scooting along on that. Man, I have a lot to read. I've got lots to read is what you're saying, Eliana.

We also have a couple of other books that we might read, but those are things we're thinking about. Spoilers, you'll hear more about that very soon. But to talk about books we are reading, we are rereading The Amber Spyglass from His Dark materials we put that out every last friday of the month so if you are ready to listen to the amber spyglass or some discussion about it we'll be putting another episode out this month at the end of the month the last friday of the month and every month we put that out every month an episode will probably be done next spring next summer that's a good time. We're going to be pretty

fucked up. Catelyn's bad enough, and now I have to read the Amber Spyglass. This is bullshit. We're going to make our own happiness now. We're going to be uplifting this episode. We craft our own Sarah Ton tonin do we miss sarah tonic i was thinking of miss do you remember sarah bellum from the powerpuff girls

yeah sarah miss bella yeah miss bella beautiful ginger curly bosomed woman i love her. Yes. Love Miss Bella. Yes. Miss Sarah? Oh, my God. Well, Eliana, let's get into our lightning round. Without further ado, we aren't going to stop for any emails or tweets and notes this week. We will come back next week with some, I am sure. Until then, let's talk about what we missed in the chapters between Catelyn II in A Storm of Swords and Catalan 3 in our lightning round, starting with Jon 2. Ygritte saves Jon with a lover's lie. Sansa 2.

Sansa gets a sparkly new dress. Arya 3. Arya learns the origin story of the Brotherhood Without Banners. Samwell 1. Sam the Slayer defeats an Other. Yes, he does. That's my boy. That's my he does. That's my boy.

That's my favorite chapter. That's so good. And another. He took another step. It's so good. It's so good. The writing's so good. I can't wait till we get there. That's my son and I love him. Speaking of sons I don't love, Tyrion 3,

Tyrion's role in the war becomes a little more complex as he's set to wed a wolf tywin creates war melodrama with his quill chloe the son i don't love okay tywin lannister whatever and that brings us to a storm ofatelyn III. The man who passes the sentence must swing the sword. As the rain falls, Catelyn thinks, is this the sound of a fallen kingdom? Ugh. I'm destroyed.

And honestly, so is this dark camp. Silence has fallen in the Riverrun Hall, as dead Lannister children are placed on the dais. In the quiet, Catelyn hears Grey Wind howl. A castle away, he can smell the blood, the scent of death and ruin.

She stands at the left of Robb and for a moment she feels as if she's staring down at her own dead sons. But these boys are much older than Bran and Rickon. Naked and wet though, they seem smaller. One of the boys had been trying to grow a beard. Pale peach fuzz covered his face and jaw, right above the mark of a knife at his throat. His hair was still wet, as if he'd been pulled from a bath. Yeah, I love the way that, for like a good page or two the way this chapter starts

you can feel the silence it's like suddenly there's a noise and i'm like wow i didn't realize like i was just like holding my breath it's so quiet like i was feeling that silence and how solemn the scene was and the emphasis here of likening these two Lannister boys to Bryn and Rickon really speaks to how, you know, Catelyn, before she becomes Lady Stoneheart, she's still able to extend this empathy to even the children of the enemy camp, right? As she thinks of them like her own children, just as again, in previous chapters, she had thought of how would Jon's mother feel or how does Cersei feel about her children. But the loss of so many of her loved ones at the Red Weddings, mostly Rob especially, that's the breaking point after having lost so many of her children, causes her to just lose all of that empathy. All bets are off.

And even before she dies, right, she kills Jingle Bell and does the very thing that they are condemning rickard for this chapter and then she does it again and again but and again and again you know whatever and some more yeah next book i mean the wind's a winner wait till you read it folks we've read it and mind blown i'm not i'm not sad about the chapter surprising i'm just sad for not sad about the chapter. It's surprising. I'm just sad for me. You're sad about the Winds of Winter now. We were gonna be positive, Eliana, when we started this. We said that we would be good.

We are happy. We are happy because it looks like they died. No. No, it's not happy. You have to restart that. No. The children look like they died peacefully in their sleep i'm gonna keep all that but his cousin it says that willem looks like he might

have died peacefully in his sleep but his cousin probably tion fought for his life with slashes across his arms from blocking the blades and blood trickling slowly from the stab wounds on his chest and stomach. Both boys were pale from imprisonment. They were fair and the blood was shockingly red. Not to bring it back to a POV we've already done, but it does

remind me of your artwork you made for Jon Snow with the gashes all over him. It reminds me a bit of that. I Yeah. It reminds me a bit of that. And I mean, it reminds me a bit of that in book too, the slashes and gashes from blocking the blades and the blood trickling slowly. But more than that, Stark, Geryon,

this scene, this opening scene is ghastly. And the idea of these children being tumbled onto the dais is ghastly. And the first thing i thought of while reading this this week was this is robert's rebellion all over again right uh this chapter is rob saying pretty much everything ned wished he could have said when tywin lannister's regime delivered the targaryen children at the bottom of the Iron Throne, right? The cloth drenched in their blood. And this is the result of what would have happened had Ned convinced Robert to turn away from Tywin

Lannister in the war, right? Losing armies, losing the war, the same allies that would crown him, Robb learns also will kill him. Robb is now his own robert right his namesake he's surrounded by agents of the westerlands he's a prisoner in his own crown with a lannister wife in a way not a lannister wife but basically right yeah and part of it he just keeps cutting off right his own paths the paths keep closing and they keep getting cornered and but that's a great that's a great connection to what happened in robert's rebellion and the babes wrapped in the cloaks the children and you're talking about povs we've done before and and that kind of uh reminded me of again another pov we did before davos this is the fate that Davos saves Edric Storm from, right? Because Edric's also

imprisoned and about to become that. About to be wrapped and presented like a fucking lamb up for slaughter. Well, yeah. And roasted? Yum. Brown.

Uplifting. Flaky. I'm sorry. I'm hungry all over again we're keeping it light oh no and oh no rob wore his crown during this and it caught in the torchlight shadows hide his eyes as gazes down on these children catelyn wonders does does he see Bran and Rickon as well? She, however, thinks of Sansa and thinks, will they lay Sansa down naked beneath the Iron Throne

after they've killed her? Will her skin seem as white? Her blood as red? Okay, well, news for Catelyn, she's already been laid naked beneath the Iron Throne, bloody. Right? Like, that was a clash of kings.

That was Rob winning his first handful of battles. Catch up, Catelyn. Yeah. I mean, I'm not, you know, I'm not going to hit a mother for thinking of her daughter, right? Like, good for you for thinking of Sansa in this time of need. But this has already been the king of Westeros's intent. Ever since Robb started winning, right down to the language used, right?

Like you look back at a clash of kings. Boros, make her naked. She thought her legs might break from the force of the blow. It will be over soon. Beat her bloody, Joffrey said. We'll see how her brother fancies. I mean, had Tyrion the okay lannister not stepped in this

would have already happened that being said there is something very parallel with tyrian right in the chapter right before this the chapter before this is tyrian three and sans is kind of the subject of this chapter for him because he's being told by his father he has to marry her open your eyes the stark girl is young nubile tractable of the highest birth and still a maid she's not uncomely why would you hesitate why indeed a quirk of mine strange to say i'd prefer a wife who wants me in her bed tyrian knows he and sansa are merely pawns in his father's game in his plot much like tywin kind of revealing in the last chapter that jane and rob are also pawns in his plot he kind of

lightly says ah they're their parents children tyrian don't worry about it i think there's something interesting and also happening here that tyion in the last chapter thinks a lot about Lysa Arryn, who comes up in this chapter, almost sympathizing for Lysa, knowing that she became the woman she did because they married her to Jon Arryn. And he doesn't really know how close to being right he is, but he gets pretty close, right? He literally thinks to the last chapter oh they did this to her they married her to john aaron of course thankfully we're gonna get sansa out of this one right before that mine minus some of the trauma she's still got to deal with that but we'll get her out of there before the weird old man marriage hopefully uh but liza doesn't get out quite alive yet no she does not and i think that's that's a great point that this has already happened to sanza unfortunately right and she died

no oh yeah i was like why would you say that um but there's a lot yeah i know right i was like this isn't my co-host she there's a lot of sanza i think thought of in this chapter and i we're going to talk about her quite a few more times coming up but for now enyur is standing to rob's right a hand on the back of his father's seat eyes puffy from sleep they'd all been awakened in the black of night from their dreams catelyn wonders were they good dreams brother do you dream of sunlight and laughter and a maiden's kisses i pray you do her own dreams were dark and laced with terrors what language great language to be associated with mother merciless right yeah for the woman who comes back as a fire white dark and laced with terrors uh it's a little dry right like obviously

catelyn and edmure are beefing right now yeah we know this we all know this so i think there's a good point to take that this is a little scathing right in remark yeah i agree but but on that same tune on that same note i think it's indicative of catalyn's personality of fiercely protecting her family her nature even in her grief even in her anger if she could she would still try to keep those nightmares from her baby brother i think that's really obvious uh that catalyn would do anything to be able to protect those around her. They love each other, but definitely beefing. Yeah, this feels

a little bit kind of like a similar vibe to, you know, Sansa pitied them, Sansa envied them, and Catelyn, you know, thinking the same of the soldiers in Renly's camp, because I'm kind of like, so, this is anecdotal, and I don't know if you feel the same, when I haven't gotten enough sleep or I've woken up in the middle if you feel the same when i haven't gotten enough sleep

or i've woken up in the middle of the night maybe i just haven't paid enough attention to my face i don't think i'm puffy my eyes are puffy if i've been crying right like crying like before sleep or whatever so i'm just like was edmure crying and i'm also like i don't know why we would assume as you said right it's kind of scathing because I'm like, Ednur has just like come back from a battle. His dad is dying too. So I don't know that he's having good dreams. Yeah, probably not. I mean, I think he's avoiding his dreams as the bigger thing.

Probably. You know what I mean? That's a great point. Yeah. And I think that's part of it. I think a lot of the war we're going to talk about in this chapter and how it starts to get to Rob. Oh, obviously. That's the's part of it. I think a lot of the war we're going to talk about in this chapter and how it starts to get to Rob. That's the biggest representative of it.

But I mean, think of these men battling around him and what they're probably avoiding. Mm-hmm. PTSD. Captains and Lord Bannerman are standing around the room. Some of them are armed. Some are in various states of sleepy dishevelment. Sir Raynald Westerling and Ralph Spicer are among them, but Jane is spared

the scene. She's still asleep. Catelyn wonders if she would have played with these boys when they were children, right? Looking down at the corpses of Tion Frey and Willem Lannister. Yeah, the Westerling place is not so far

and I really, just as an aside wish we had gotten you know jane's thoughts on these deaths i understand why we don't i don't think like george thought it was necessary for the story or like you know we also don't have her pov uh but you know i i kind of do want a jane pov i don't think we're gonna get one i really don't but i i suddenly realized I do kind of want one. I think it would be better than a lot of the crazy predictions for that intro, right? I'm partial. I think I've expressed this.

I'm partial to the theory of the ill and pain one. I mean, we also know I'm a big ill and pain stan too, so. I do think it sucks because it's like if she did get a POV, it's because she dies. So it's not fair. So I don't want her to have POV. did get a POV, it's because she dies. So it's not fair. So I don't want her to have POV. But also I'm like, she's gonna die. I mean, her name's Jane, so nothing good can happen to her. It rhymes with pain.

Literally rhymes with pain. Uplifting. Rob speaks, commanding the small John to tell his father to bring them in. He obeys. The great John marches prisoners through. Men step back as they enter, as if treason is contagious. Who will get it next? Both captors and captives look similar. They're large, burly men with thick beards, clad in mail or sewn rings and weaponry.

Two of the great John's men are wounded wounded and three of their prisoners as well the north is hard and cold and has no mercy ned had told her when she first came to winterfell a thousand years ago wow a thousand years ago i feel that way about these past two years too. I love the imagery here of the captors and captives looking alike really goes to show how the camp is falling apart and men are turning on one another. But I also find this line specifically of the north is hard and cold and has no mercy. That one very interesting for a couple of reasons. On hand as we've been discussing catelyn is this blend of northern and southern culture she's very much assimilated in many ways to northern culture and i feel like that continues as her storyline goes and even into the lady stoneheart

part it seems she becomes harder and colder right even though she comes back as a fire white she exemplifies this idea of having no mercy as she seeks vengeance for the north very much the she remembers the north remembers right and losing that any mercy that she has ever had and then another way that i think it's interesting is that yeah i do see this idea of being hard and cold and having no mercy exemplified in northern culture right but it ends when it comes to innocence right i think ned is our first window into northern culture he's our character that really introduces that as does catlin as we've discussed at the beginning of her chapters she's sort of the exposition and is able to give us more of that

information as an outsider but ned is the one living through it. And Ned models this lack of mercy, again, until it comes to innocence, because his first appearance after all is administering northern justice rather than mercy through that Bran chapter. But the Ned that we see through his own POVs is full of mercy, especially for children, as you were talking about earlier, Chloe, right, with the innocence laid at robert's feet like this is a huge part and it's where his arc comes to end in the first books right where he shows mercy specifically to his enemies not vengeance uh the family that injured his son and he knows that right he gives them mercy for the sake of those innocent children not choosing to let them die as Rickard Carstark

has pursued here and speaking of injured sons as I've said a few times across our episodes I do think we're going to see the Stark children's arc become one about mercy in different ways for example of course the way Arya is learning it the way way Sansa is, and Bran, I think, is going to end up showing forgiveness to those who directly hurt him. Bran's got a lot of people who have hurt him in his life. So I really look forward to the day that, you know, not to get sad again, we see those themes develop in their stories, and how it's going to eventually play out with those themes of mercy and justice in Lady Stoneheart's progression. play out uh with those themes of mercy and justice in lady stoneheart's progression yeah mercy's totally prominent here uh and ned you're bringing up great points about him that like he didn't even really want to deliver mercy right as we'll talk about later it's not like he

really wanted that he didn't want to kill sandor says to sansa you're an idiot of course your dad wanted to murder that's all there is in life if you're a man murder but it's not true of ned for ned the murder literally took a toll on his life on his soul yeah and i do think there's something interesting here in this thought from catalyn of when she first came to winterfell a thousand years ago and feeling like such a different person and how each of her daughters Sansa and Arya both have thoughts about who they were a thousand years ago right a thousand years ago they were a different person and here she is having that similar thought of what different person she was and I feel like that's so interesting to see when you're displaced from your home the place you came into yourself

for Catelyn it wasn't her home Riverrun is her home but the North became her home in a way it nourished her just enough to become who she is now politically and I mean humanly speaking you know as existence

as existential as you could be and then inhumanly speaking later god shit eliana so rob counts out the prisoners he counts five out of eight prisoners present and the great ones like yes two were killed when they were taken a third is dying right now currently they also killed two of edmure's men not great karstark says this was no murder any man who steps between a father and his son and their vengeance asks for death catelyn's throat is dry she thinks these two boys died so my daughters might live again so many innocents dying and and this time specifically for house stark and not just the children i think there's a really strange parallelism here between the deaths of

tion and willem with the deaths of the miller's sons the ones who died so that brandon rickon could escape unnoticed those are the murders really the miller's sons, the ones who died so that Bran and Rickon could escape unnoticed. Those are the murders, really, the Miller's sons that kind of set House Stark onto this path that leads to destruction, even to this point of tragedy and the deaths of, you know, even more innocents like this endless cycle. As Kat and Rob, they don't realize it, but they're really grieving these nameless children. don't realize it but they're really grieving these nameless children and i i think someone should right speaking of povs we don't get we don't get a glimpse at all of the miller's pain when he realizes the deaths of his sons and his wife and you know with those prices paid using the miller's sons and then these two young lannisters we start to see Theon and Catelyn's storylines interestingly converge, both dying and then becoming rebirthed, in a sense. We've obviously discussed it before because we've done

these chapters with Reek clearly being a changed Theon, you know, another name, another person, yet as the story progresses, still Theon. There's still Theon there, just as we've been finding through this read-through. Lady Stoneheart is of course changed and though supernaturally so, and also literally undead, the seeds for who she is are still very much Catelyn. And then as you were talking about, Chloe, Ned's

desire to save the children and seeking justice for them, these acts are supposedly done in the name of House Stark and for his children, which is, I think, very, very much not how Ned Stark envisioned the survival of his house, right? Yeah. And Catelyn, too, right? It's fair to say that here Catelyn is looking back as she thinks, they died so my daughters might live. I don't know man ned died

for our sins uh really he did i'm real sad thinking about it he was just like just take me fuck it yeah these kids these lannister children these stark children none of them deserve to suffer because we fucked it up you know and karen thinks that too she's like how is this happening to these boys who weren't even, like, involved? You know, we had them separated. We had them protected, but not protected enough. Maybe you shouldn't be taking these boys prisoner. So Rob declares this is no vengeance.

Tion Frey didn't kill Torrin. Willem Lannister didn't slay Eddard. It's folly and murder. Karstark's sons died honorably on a field. Goddamn. I mean. Yeah. I am

gonna get nitpicky with Rob on semantics here. I agree that what has happened to Tion and Willem is wrong, but I don't think that I agree with Rob. I don't think that what Rickard Karsark did is justice. It's definitely not justice.

But I think it might be vengeance, right? I do think it does seem to be aligned with how the story has been progressing and showing us what vengeance is through Lady Stoneheart's story, through, I mean, even through Liza's actions, and also through what seems to be about to happen with the Martells, right? Vengeance, it's hungry, it's bottomless, and it's indiscriminate. Yes. It doesn't mean that it's good yeah it doesn't mean it's gonna make you feel better that you just hollowly did this it always wants more it's not targeted yeah it is it's like an it's a parasite that's just eating away we see that with catalan in the afterlife right that she's just a. She's not a real person anymore.

She's just killing for, you know, the sake of killing. And Karstark, that's the thing. It's like, it's literally the onion meme, right? Of like, the worst person you know makes some good points. That onion meme. I was like, there's a lot of onion things, Shrek. Different onion meme. I was like, there's a lot of onion things, Shrek. Different onion meme. But it is. It's like,

when the worst person you know makes a bunch of really good points, and Karstark is that throughout this entire chapter. He's like that horrible conscience voice, right? Like, he's that beat that, like, he's a piece of fuck and you know all his opinions are wrong, but he keeps saying these sneering, snide

things to you that you're like, fuck off. Yeah, you're right, but he keeps saying these sneering snide things to you that you're like fuck off yeah you're right but fuck yourself like get out of here you little shit yeah i don't know like he's right but they're as you said they're like good points i'm like hmm this is an interesting thought for sure and these are some of them right like he's like those children are kin of the lannisters of of the Kingslayer, and only blood can pay for blood, Karstark says. That's very, that's something that we see in the Dance of the Dragons, you know, with that idea of only blood, yeah, blood and cheese, blood can pay for blood. It is. It's playing dirty.

I mean, this is war. You know, this isn't just like super happy fucking medieval fun time i do love that video i know we do which is why i quoted it honestly like why i brought it up i was thinking of you but it isn't that you know what i mean like this is war and i'm not saying that rob's treating it at all like Renly's camp. Renly's camp treats it a lot differently, right? Yeah. But, you know, this is war. It gets dirty.

And Karstark is really bringing the first to that. Rob says, the blood of children can pay for blood. Remembering, you know, these are 12-year-old squires, Rickard. And Rickard says, squires die in every battle. But Rob argues, they were captives they weren't to die he tells rickard to look at them and rickard says tell your mother to look at them she slew them as much as i as you said carstark makes points but this one i'm like that's not true rickard carstark that was too far too far it's the way your mother looked at me that

one time she made me so mad i had to kill some kids i know right okay yeah so understandably rob disagrees uh as do we laying the treason at his feet and car stark then this this is an interesting point though he asked how it's treason to kill Lannisters but not to free them and then he asks if Robb forgot that they are at war with the Lannisters and then he he makes this annoying like little jabby line of in war you kill your enemies didn't your father teach you that boy and it's like hitting that same note here again right like that same question that is put in front of Brienne in that Jaime chapter that opens the book where he shows her the women that are hanged for sleeping with note here again right like that same question that is put in front of brienne in that jamie chapter that opens the book where he shows her the women that are hanged for sleeping with

lannister men but this time with a slightly different twist god it is that and it's like the perfect jab of like everything rob is insecure about in his reign right like yeah in war you kill your enemies didn't your father teach you your enemies didn't your father teach you that boy didn't your father teach you that before he died boy um it's very much so meant to be hidden deeply like that and everyone's pissed about it like they take that they took that personally everyone took that personally understand Everyone took that personally. Understandably. The Great John and everyone, they're pissed. They're like, you just called our king boy. And the Great John hits him with his mailed fist.

He just strikes him. And Rob's like, leave him, leave him. Karstark spits out a broken teeth, but yet he keeps talking shit. Yes, Lord Umber, leave me to the king. He means to give me a scolding before he forgives me. That's how he deals with treason, our king of the north. Or should I call you the king who lost the north, your grace? Damn.

Excuse me? Yeah. That's dishonorable. Very rude. Very rude. You can't just be saying that. That's rude. That's also, that's also like some treasonous talk.

I mean, on top of the actual treason that was committed. But yeah, you're right. It's so rude. And picking at Rob's insecurities. And you know what? He's already got insecurities. He's going through puberty. He's 16.

He's got a new girlfriend wife. Trying to make babies you know doesn't know Scotty doesn't know how well the Greyjohn grabs a spear from a man beside him and he's ready to gut him

but the doors of the hall crash open and in comes the Blackfish and Tully men at arms rain and lightning storming outside very convenient that it was raining during their dramatic entrance happy for him Blackfish and Tully men at arms. Rain and lightning storming outside. Very convenient that it was raining during their dramatic entrance. Happy for him. His voice is grim and Rob takes his leave,

asking the Greyjohn to hold this chamber and hang the other seven men who committed these crimes. Even the dead ones. He goes, let them feed the crows. Oh, wait, the feast? feast yeah are they gonna feast they are gonna be is it a god holy shit it's fascinating he's like we don't want to poison the fishes to give them to the crows i'm like wow some animal favoritism there rob i'm sure the crows are happy for it though actually one of the captives falls to his knees and he's begging for mercy he's like i only stood and watched for guards at the door rob says if you knew what rickard intended and

if you heard their shouts their screams the cry of mercy did you hear those things thinking face emoji the man says well i did but i didn't take any part lord umber says rob this one was only the watcher hang him last so he may watch the others die okay so vengeance is bad and what these people did is bad all right and also maybe this is like this is like this gray area right this sentence from rob i understand and also the action itself like as we know the things that happen in this chapter they are especially bad for rob specifically but i'm not gonna lie this entire sequence it's pretty fucking metal yeah i mean we're obviously to talk about this as we move forward, but he had to. He didn't have to, but he had to. It was kind of cool.

I mean, it was very metal. Very metal. And it is the moment. I mean, you see Rob and John and each other at this moment, right? The no fucking prisoners. We'll talk about John's other execution he's committed soon. But John's got a handful of executions in his plot we gotta talk about. Truly. That's a lot of pain, yeah.

A lot of man pain happening for Jon and Rob right now. It's hard being 16. It really is. Rob, Kat, and Brynden take their temporary leave. We have more imagery of outside the thunder crashed and boomed. So loud it sounded as if the castle were coming down about their ears. Is this the sound of a kingdom falling? Katlyn wondered.

Fucking shivers. It is. It's so pointed. And I'm like, well, Katatelyn, the short answer is yes. The long answer is also yes, but also there's still more books to come. I mean, this is kind of the beginning of the North Remembers plot as we get into it today. This is where it really starts. I mean, Northern Independence starts when Robb is crowned king,

but this is really the North wanting vengeance, right? And wanting something in exchange for the pain they're suffering. And the wolves will come again. That's all I can think about right now. The only thing I have, keeping me sane, Eliana, is once in a while I just gotta go, the wolves will come again. They will, motherfuckers. They will.

A servant enters the other audience chamber to light an oil lamp but is shooed away by rob who keeps the lamp only edmure sits and then edmure's like oh shit no one else is sitting down so he stands up no hate that shit i would have kept sitting fuck that mood yeah like power move it come on yeah Rob puts his crown on the table, and the Blackfish closes the door. He declares the Karstarks have left. Rob's like, wait, what? All? In a voice that can't quite discern if it's anger or if it's despair.

Brendan reiterates, all the fighting men left. They questioned who was remaining and learned from the serving men and wounded that they were instructed to stay and light the fires meanwhile at nightfall the karstarks began to leave in ones and twos and then larger groups brendan says they've scattered hunting that the karstarks mean to give karstarks maiden daughter alice to any man who promises to bring him the head of the Kingslayer. Catelyn feels ill again to hear of these pawns being used against them. 300 riders, 600 mounts, all the strength of Carhold, gone. Lost by me. By me, may the gods forgive me. Catelyn did not need to be a soldier to grasp the trap Robb was in.

For now, though, Robb holds the riverlands, but enemies sit at all sides. Except for east, where Liza sat, aloof, withholding. So long as Lord Walder withheld his allegiance, the trident wasn't safe either. Admir says, No word can leave Riverrun of this. the lannisters pay their debts when he hears catelyn digs her nails into her palms thinking of sansa yeah there's sansa again i think this is such a really pointed physical action on the part of catelyn the digging of her nails into her palms it's it's a very small physical gesture,

but I think it's very heavy because the story has really imbued a lot of meaning into Catlin's hands specifically, that her hands are about that connection, but also protection of her family. These were the hands that were injured protecting her son and the ones that held the sword that's quote-unquote swearing uh jamie into this crazy plan to save sansa and then as she turns those hands on herself those fingernails that are just digging into the palm of those very same hands were reminded of the action of her nails scraping down her face as her eldest child dies in front of her and and and i feel like this action becomes a physical reflection of her thinking that she is responsible for the undoing of her family and kingdom as her hands turn against her hands i love the way you've pulled this in

for a couple reasons especially because we've come from davos right a lot of people might not see the method to our madness but as your resident hand expert it's me hand disability expert Chloe it's her hand job oh my god as somebody that has issues with hand jobs wait what as somebody whose hands job god damn it anyways so resident hand expert. You know, we came from Davos, who has shortened fingers for his god, I mean, for his king. And Catelyn, you know, like you said, gave part of herself to her son to protect him, her hands. But we also have someone we've already covered, Jaime, right, who also suffers from a tick. He has a phantom feeling from his hand he feels himself try to try to flex his fingers but realizes he has no hand any longer and john john also has a hand that no longer moves as we've

discussed who tries to flex his hand to keep it moving and has a tick about it kind of to bring emotional presence into it uh so i really just want to kind of give george a moment you know he did well on bringing in these little ticks about people with injuries to their hands or people with i mean you don't think about it but like your hands are kind of important right like we do a lot of shit with our hands and only kind of eliana knows i can't do normal shit with my hands man it's a lot i just can't and eliana had to write my vows for my fucking wedding for me like she didn't use them i've looked at them twice thank you very much uh but no but like it is important like you flex your hand you can't move it you feel the phantom tick of a hand that used to be there, that used to be the reason why you were basically half a king.

Half a god. Jaime Lannister was half a god with a sword. And Catelyn now has been reduced to this on top of already being reduced to what she is. To being Catelyn, to being a woman, to being a king's mother. A king's widow mother. All she can do is try to protect her children even now she can't she can't protect her children or her kingdom and that's a that's a great point in how hands operate throughout a song of ice and fire that it's very meaningful for a lot of other characters and oftentimes you know hands are associated with ability right not not like physical ability but just like even the will to be able to do things

power etc and and we find here as as caitlin's hands are balled into fists and unable to do anything but but hurt herself digging into maybe where her scars are, that she finds herself more and more without any ability, without any power to do things, and also that her son is starting to find himself in those predicaments as well, as again, more and more the way is closing. Yes, yes. way is closing yes yes well rob doesn't really like edmure's plan of which is a little dishonest and then he like snaps back of like oh should he be a liar as well as a murderer then and and i think that once more even though there are many things that Rob is doing that is very much in the vein of his father's lessons, this is again reflecting a misunderstanding of Ned's honor. But also it's kind of like not Rob's fault because Ned had like a shit ton of secrets that he felt were too dangerous to share with anyone, including his own family. Especially, you know, he found his own chosen family of Robert proved too unsafe, which is interesting considering that rob is finding that his own chosen family is untrustworthy and and that that chosen family was a huge danger to their own family robert was a huge threat to

john because turns out robert was very much in that fuck them kids camp and that that's Robert Baratheon. Like, put him on that meme, you know? Fuck them kids. That's him. And because Ned's life was just so full of lies, like his shame in the lying and taking on having this bastard, he actually dies a liar by taking on also the taint of treason, right? Which is a big deal in this chapter. And these are in many

ways, though, as we the reader see his most honorable acts, the ones that are the would be considered most dishonorable. But Rob is still too young. He's 16. He's thrust into the complexities and nuances of life, with no time to learn them or to make mistakes, with few mentors really who have been through these same things. And he takes great offense to Edmure asking him to lie versus considering the need to lie to protect his family, which is what Ned did. That personal honor should not come above the cost of lives. Especially the cost of lives of innocence right yeah or sansa which is i mean it's it's still sansa's that question here too absolutely for both sansa is the question that's one being quietly not said but for cat it's said it's loud in cat's head as it was in ned's

it was it absolutely was emir says there needn't be lies he should just say nothing bury them hold their tongues till after war keep the news from the twins as long as they can until but the black fish interrupts him and says until we can bring the murdered dead back to life wow interesting this line was very loud. It was like the loudest line on this reread. Until we can bring the murdered dead back to life. Murdered? Dead? Back to life? Keeping the news from the twins?

Seems like real funny. Seems real funny that he would say that in this book of all books. It just feels like there's some funny business going on with Catelyn Stark's dead body. Is all I'm trying to say. The murdered dead back to life. But who would do such a thing? I digress. Rob says what we're all thinking.

That it's too late for all that. The truth left with the car starts. Rob owes their father's truth and justice. Willam and Tien. Rickard had defied and betrayed him. And Rob says he has no choice but now to condemn him. There's this line here that Rob says, and I'm just like imagining if you replace the term Lord Karstark with Robstark, I feel like you could hear Walder Frey saying these exact same lines.

Like, instead of Lord Rickard defied me, betrayed me, I have no choice but to condemn him. But if instead you say, Robstark defied me, betrayed me, I have no choice but to condemn him. A thought experiment. I mean, it's not wrong. I know. It's not wrong. It's a thought experiment i mean it's not wrong i know it's not wrong it's a thought it's hard it's hard and it's interesting you say that right so rob wonders what the karstark men with ruse will do when they've heard he executed their liege for a traitor and he's like ruse must be warned i'm over here like must he must you warn him he doesn't need more warning yeah

must he i don't know there's something going on that i really like that rob who rob thinks his antagonists are is different than who rob's antagonists are right so when you're first reading the books you might think the lannisters are the antagonists of Robb Stark, but they're not. Like, Jaime and Tyrion are Kat's antagonists, right? Like, these are the people that antagonize Kat's plot. They don't antagonize Robb's plot. Tyrion, Jaime, Lysa, Littlefinger, those are all characters for Kat. characters for Kat. But it's so easy to forget that Karstark, Roose, Walder, those are direct antagonizers of Rob's plot. Even Theon, I suppose. As you said last week, Theon is the little finger of the plot for Rob. All three of these men have so much in common. They're proud and prickly, and they betray him for a little bit of column A, a little bit of column B, right?

Pride, ambition, and revenge. I mean, Walder, Karstark, and Bruce are basically Rob's three treasons, you shall know. They are. Yeah, they really are treasons. They are literally treason shit. That's such an interesting. Three treasons you shall know. One's for...

Blood, love, and gold. Yeah. These aren't a that. Blood, love, gold. Yeah, actually. Honestly, I would argue, you know, back when we talked about Jon with that plot, and we talked a little bit about this

with Joe Magician when he was on, if you remember, but we talked about Dy's three treasons amon's three treasons in his life and john's three treasons possibly all being parallel but it does feel like george has really given each hero three treasons to break Very interesting here. And, well, they succeed. Rob dies. Brendan reminds Rob that Karsaric's heir was captive at Harrenhal from the Green Fork. And Rob says his name is Harrian. A king had best know the name of his enemies, don't you think?

And Brendan asks if he's certain that Harrian would be an enemy. rob reminds him well i'm about to slay his father but brindan points out well there are sons who hate their fathers though and he's like that i mean that could be the lord of carhold he could be one of those and rob doesn't think like harry could like really forgive him for openly killing his father even if he doesn't like him and that regardless his own men would turn on him and that the north remembers and i think this is an interesting line that in this chapter because it's sandwiched between tyrian and jamie's chapters and as we know, the Lannisters have a complicated relationship with their father. Like, both of them dislike Tywin in different ways. But where, like, I think Jaime more feels betrayed by Tywin,

whereas, like, Jaime, he feels betrayed by Tyrion killing Tywin. He doesn't feel like he can really forgive Tyrion for killing their father, even though he didn't really like Tywin that much. And I also think it seems like a really heavy line in these chapters because it's following that revelation about Lysa, right? Lysa obviously also has a complex relationship with her father, and I don't know that she would really hold that much against someone who killed her father.

Yeah, I mean, if you gave her the crossbow, do you think she'd do it? I don't think so, but I wouldn't put it past her to give it to someone and be like, you can do this for me. She definitely got a little crazy at the end. That's true. She was willing to do it to Sansa. I don't know if she would be willing to

do it to Hoster or not. Not because she wouldn't want to i think it's it's a lot she did it for the internalized misogyny yeah i mean like good for you girl tyrian was pushed there you know he had like that one line he's like if you do it i'll do this i don't know if liza had that because hoster was begging for forgiveness on like tywin had she been at river run while he died though it would be like say tansy again motherfucker you know yeah say it again bitch uh you know this is the first iteration of the north remembers though this is the first time we get the phrase in the whole series huh fascinating i didn't know the north remembers yep this is it this is the beginning this is the start of something new feels so wrong to die and mere uses this opportunity to say

why don't we pardon lord karstark you know spare him keep him in chains cat's like oh so like a hostage and admira immediately is like yes you're so smart cat i agree a hostage and she's like that's not what i was he tries to sansa sansa to joffrey it he's you're so good to see it admira's like thank god you said it cat i thought no one would you're so smart and she's like god fuck you uh yeah he says tell harian as long as he's loyal his dad won't be harmed otherwise if they lose karstark as well as fray there's no hope broblet's out of breath and he repeats yes yes, no hope. No word from Sir Roderick,

no word from Walder Frey to our new offer. Silence from the eerie. He turns to Kat, asking if her sister will never answer them, that he doesn't believe none of their birds arrived to her. Katalin realizes Rob is looking for comfort, but she's like,

but my king needs truth. So she gives it to him. Liza won't lend her aid, she says. Liza was never brave. When we were girls together, she would run and hide whenever she'd done something wrong. Perhaps she thought our lord father would forget to be wroth with her if he couldn't find her. It's no different now she ran from king's landing for fear to the safest place she knows and she sits on her mountain hoping

everyone will forget her oh that line liza was never brave when we were girls she would run and hide whenever she'd done something wrong this is like the ultimate sirens. Between this and the last chapter of Tyrion, like, realizing, oh, they did this to Lysa. Lysa killed Jon Arryn. Sirens are going off right now in the background. Pew, pew, pew. Lysa did it. You know, first read, you don't read it at all.

But second read, I get it. I get it. I totally get it. Great point. A lot of things happening in these chapters between one another. Rob explains that the Knights of the Vale could change everything for them. All sorts of battle plans. If Liza would just open the gates and provide ships that would take them north to Gulltown,

then they could land at White Harbor, and then they could flank at Moat Cailin and drive the Ironmen out in half a year. This is a dream. This is straight up like, first of all, this is a dream statement. Even Brendan the Blackfish is like, okay, that's not going to happen, kid. It's so sad. It is sad.

But I do like this because I'm curious. I think this might be how Sansa brings in the Knights of the Vale. This exact plan that the Knights of the veil this exact plan that the knights of the veil could if she opened the gates provided ships to take them north at gold town they would land at white harbor flank moat calen drive the ironman out in half a year i think that's how they could maybe do this flank moat calen and trap the boltons could happen could happen something to pay attention to

when Sansa comes home, I think. I think that language is important. It does feel important. I think that's a great catch and idea for how that'll manifest. We'll find out next week in the Winter Winter. But the Blackfish does agree.

Like I said, he's like, this isn't gonna happen, Rob. This is fantasy talk. That's cute. And Rob then is like, fuck liza may the others take her and rickard and theon and walder and tywin this is like a this is just a house stark thing you know as the story goes on they love making lists of murder like murder nameless name lists it's a family hobby stark as fuck

scrapbook that shit burn book gods be good why would any man ever want to be king when everyone was shouting king in the north king in the north I told myself,

swore to myself, that I would be a good king, as honourable as father, strong, just, loyal to my friends, brave when I faced my enemies. Now, I can't even tell one from the other.

How did it all get so confused? Lord Rickards fought at my side in half a dozen battles. His sons died for me in the Whispering Wood. Tion Frey and Lilum Lannister were my enemies. Yet now I have to kill my dead friend's father for their sakes. He looked at them all. Will the Lannisters thank me for Lord Rickard's head with Freys? No, said Brynden Blackfish, blunt as ever. All the more reason to spare Lord Rickard's life and keep him hostage, Enyr urged. Rob reached down with both hands, lifted the heavy bronze and iron crown, and set it back

atop his head. And suddenly, he was a king again. Lord Rickard dies. But why? said Enyr. You said yourself. I know what I said, uncle. It does not change what I must do. The swords in his crown stood stark and black against his brow. In battle I might have slain Tion and Willem myself, but this, this was no battle. They were asleep in their beds, naked and unarmed, in a cell where I put them. Rickard Karstark killed more than a Frey and a Lannister. He killed my honor. I shall deal with him at dawn.

Big words, Rob. Big words. And Rob has followed Ned's plot thread, right? Save the children. That is the big plot thread. He is doing what Ned could not do. He's wielding the power Ned didn't really have right to save these children but unfortunately he still has to swing the sword kill karstark karstark purposefully did all this he purposefully decided to be a ticking time bomb to take rob out with him he said these things publicly that rob couldn't ignore like purposefully he purposefully insulted Rob's mom. He purposefully goaded Rob, calling him a boy, disrespecting him very blatantly because he knows he's going down. He wants to do the most damage to the Stark campaign as he can at this point.

After this, he calls Rob a kinslayer, even though it's not really kinslaying. I mean, their bloodline is farther apart than robert and rhaegar he's doing it on purpose he does this because he wants rob to look as fucking shitty as he can he wants his campaign to falter past his expiration when rob says i told myself i swore to myself i'd be a good king as honorable as as father, strong, just, loyal to my friends, brave when I faced my enemies. Now I can't tell one from the other. It's just a redux of the end of Clash, right? All those vows, they make you swear and swear. that line of hypocrisy and complexity till the moment he died of giving his enemies this decency

and respect to give a shit about their brutalized children that have been thrown at the new king's doorstep is that how you secure a kingdom with the blood of children that's not what rob wants to secure his kingdom on that's such a that that's such a great comparison of Ned and Rob. And this line that you've called out of how he can't even tell his enemies from his friends, right? I mean, obviously, that's the dilemma that Ned felt in that same moment that you're talking about, where he was presented with the children's bodies. Like, Robert, would it be good a war for if not to stop the killing of innocents and then the line gets even muddier right when he gets to the tower of joy it's so clear in that moment and starts to get muddier he's like well

these are my heroes why am i killing my heroes and then yeah when he's in that tower and he finds liana right likely with baby john that's i think that's where the line gets muddiest who are my enemies and who are my friends john here the son of the man who kidnapped his sister and also his nephew his blood it's crazy because at the end it does come down to what's honor yeah right it comes down yeah absolutely every single horrible predicament of these comes down to what's honor against your family against a horse against a newborn child it's rough like i'm not even trying to be cheesy though because that is the answer like that speech is the answer to all of this yeah and i i almost like think like when i said it in the context of that speech i was joking when i said a horse but i mean like that is kind of what it is right like what is honor it's a

fucking horse who cares about fucking honor compared to yeah compared to holding your loved ones close yeah love it's love it's keeping your loved ones safe it's protecting the people you can i mean that's like real life yeah like we have no control over the fucking bullshit that this world goes through half the time and all we can do is just like love each other the best we can yeah you know it's a horse compared to all that george unless you love that horse then fuck um fuck i love that horse, then fuck. Fuck, I love that horse. I mean, he might. That happens a lot in these books, too. So by dawn, the storm is diminished to a soaking rain.

The godswood is crowded. River lords, northmen, knights, sellswords, stable boys all stand to see the end of the Night's Dark Dance. And Edmure had commanded a headsman block be set up before the heart tree. And the Greyjohn leads a bound Rickard Stark through the falling rain and leaves. Karsarik's men, as ordered, they are hanged from Riverrun's walls, and the rain is washing down their darkening faces. Long Luz stood at the ready, but Robb then takes his poleaxe, ordering him aside. This is my work. He dies at my word. He must die by my hand.

Lord Rickard Karstark dipped his head stiffly. For that much I thank you, but for naught else. Karstark dressed for death. He wore a black wool surcoat, his house's sunburst emblazoned upon it in white. Karstark reminds him, we both have the blood of the First Men. He says he was named for his grandfather, their kin, Stark and Karstark. But then Rob's like, yes, but that didn't stop you from betraying me, and now you must kneel. betraying me and now you must kneel the karstarks were distant cousins cat thinks they traced their descent to carlin stark a young son who put down a rebel lord ha ha ha and was granted lands for his valor a little on the nose or on the neck oh you could say oh his castle carl's hold became carhold and eventually they became carhold starts the car starts that's a great catch i didn't i didn't notice that before we're going the rebel lord and the valor

interesting and you know speaking of things that happened a long time ago how ketlyn thinks that she had gotten came to the north right a thousand years ago this one actually did allegedly happen about a thousand years ago and i just i'm gonna say like as you said before right like i don't know if it really counts as kinslaying after like a thousand years and as you pointed out like robert and rhaegar like that was way closer than this and way way more basically kinslaying um even though nobody talks about it as such and i mean in general this whole talk, it sets the stage for the story and the book as a whole for when we come back around to Tyrion

killing Tywin at the end of the book but I think it also raises another question for me of what the story explores of after a thousand years with so little blood shared and less of those familial ties like I said i mean

i just don't really see rickard carstark dying as kinslaying because i don't see him as family like yeah his sons were friends with rob but if anything i think that the perception of theon killing the stark boys even even though as we know he didn't. But Theon being called a kinslayer for the murder of Bran and Rickon, that feels to me even more true to call him a kinslayer for that. And the story is, I think, constantly asking us, what is family? What ties people together? What are the ties of blood versus the ties of love? And also this really important part

about found family right because like we i mean obviously tyrian and tywin that's that's pretty straightforward kinsling but there was little there was so little the love there is very complex and not really felt there's so much hatred mixed in as well um and i also think there's something behind this line, coming back to the end, where Rob says to Karstark, this kinship did not stop you from betraying me, and it will not save you. Because Rob is also, he's on his own path, but I think it's a somewhat similar path to Catelyn, right? Who's on her way to Lady Stoneheart. And Catelyn survives grief after grief, but Robb's surviving all this betrayal as well,

and this pressure. How could this ancient, alleged kinship really stop his hand in this beheading? When it's not going to stop his man if he were to confront the man that he loved like a brother, Theon Greyjoy. If he can carry all this

coldness and hate for theon and want to kill him then rickard's shit out of luck there's no mercy for rickard if he has none for theon that's a really great point and i didn't think about theon at this point as far as like who rob wishes he was cutting the head off of right. It is a little bit of projection now that you say that. Part of it really is like, the brother that I fucking chose ruined my life. Yeah. That's there. That's definitely there.

And it does feel, you know, there's something interesting behind the fact that like Robert and Rhaegar are cousins. And I think that could be from george gardening right from the early stage like maybe he didn't really understand the closeness he wanted the baratheon targaryen regime to have next to each other at first yeah um because he doesn't boast that relation right like he does not play the cousin angle for Robert and Rhaegar at all as we read this series. It is not played upon.

It's not boasted. But here, this is brought up. And it's brought up significantly throughout these couple chapters of Karstark and Stark being so close in name and sigil and land, but not at all. And he doesn't play on Robertbert and raygar at all in comparison to that so it does make you think like this is his chance to actually expand on that naturally i think since he didn't want to before yeah yeah and i guess like it's so strange i think i kind of wonder like does he not want us to like notice it but i think he just didn't think about it i really do think like he didn't know at first that's what he was gonna have happen but now he's

like uh maybe just don't think about this as kids like yeah he was like the book series will be over like real fast no one's really gonna think about it and notice it then here we are. He thought it was going to be three books. John kills Liana at the end. Yeah. So. Well, we have then this heavy scene of Old gods are new, it makes no matter. Lord Rickard told her son, No man is so accursed as the Kinslayer. Kneel, traitor, Robb said again. Or must I have them force your

head onto the block? Lord Karstark knelt. The gods shall judge you as you have judged me. He laid his head upon the block. Rickard Karstark, Lord of Karhold,

Robb lifted the heavy axe with both hands. Here in the sight of gods and men, I judge you guilty of murder and high treason. In mine own name, I condemn you. With mine own hand, I take your life. Would you speak a final word? life. Would you speak a final word? Kill me and be cursed. You are no king of mine. Well, it takes three blows for the axe to sever his head, and when it is done, both the living and the dead are drenched in blood. Puberty's so weird weird beheading your first man rob blinks his axe down turning to the heart tree shaking his hands half clenched in the rain running down his cheeks big arthur vibes and by that i mean arthur the aardvark oh yeah there's something really interesting here

going on with the executions you know rob does this execution in his own name. And when we think about some of the other executions happening in the story, I think a lot of people say Rob's mistakes here are because he was trying to be too much like his father, but I kind of disagree. The way Rob does his duty here is not like Ned's. When Ned executes Gerard, he does it in Robert's name, not his own. He invokes Robert's office as his extension of power, but when we see him create the beginnings of the Brotherhood without banners, for example, in the throne room, we see him use the king's name as more of a triumphant declaration of justice. Here, Rob takes all of this in his own name, as King Rob. It feels like Rob is trying to be better than some of the shortcomings he knows that his father had,

whether it's last chapter, right, in Ned failing to protect his bastard son, as well as failing to respect his wife, or here, where Ned's killings were in Robert's name. Ned hated killing. We know the killing literally tore apart Ned's soul. Here, Rob's first kill. His entire reign as king has been threatened by Karstark, who thinks their distant relation, as well as his loyalty to Ned on the trident, should be enough to save him. He points out this is not Ned's kingdom. Rob's actions show this is not ned's kingdom rob's actions show this is not robert's kingdom this is king rob's kingdom it's also very much set up like a duel of sorts right like a duel for honor

meet me at dawn for your dishonor and on that complete other side later we see john execute jano slint who also has done the same thing here that Karstark has. He's disrespected Jon's leadership and his honor so deeply affected that Jon doesn't even give a name or a speech. He says, Janos, do you have last words? And then he kills him. Jon, like Arya, who just washed her hands clean at the end of Clash for her first execution in the reign of a Boltenguard, Jon has become no one in that killing. But the other execution that does come to mind, full of guilt and full of a reign coming to an end,

is actually from Clash of Kings, a boy that we've covered before, trying to live up and into Ned's footsteps, but in different ways. Theon executing Farlin. Theon sat in judgment, called him guilty, condemned him to death. Even that went sour. As he knelt to the block, the kennel master said, my lord Eddard always did his own killings. Theon had to take the axe himself or look a weakling. His hands were sweating, so the shaft twisted in his grip as he swung, and the first blow landed between Farland's shoulders. It took three more cuts to hack through all the bone and muscle and sever the head from the body. Afterward, he was sick. Remembering all the times they'd sat over a cup of mead,

talking of hounds and hunting. I had no choice! He wanted to scream at the corpse. The Ironborn can't keep secrets. They had to die, and someone had to take the blame for it. He only wished he had killed him cleaner. Ned Stark had never needed more than a single blow to take a man's head. It's interesting that both rob and theon have to take the same three yeah amount of cuts and you don't need more than a single blow to take a man's head you know in their defense ned had a valyrian steel sword okay that's true that's and he only used it for these purposes yeah he had a valerian steel like great sword which has like the the weight and also the sharpness so i'm like

that's not i feel like that's not as fair you know and yeah they're like what spindly and like what 16 and 19 they need more time to develop all right like they don't have much going on is what you're trying to say yeah they're not like fully like anyways so i just like feel bad for them you can't hold yourself to that standard um but that that's also really interesting that that bringing in of Arya there. And also, the line- You know, the language for Arya is, like, exact. That she turns her head into the rain and washes the blood away. And she's just like, the rain will wash the blood away, which is what Rob does after this.

There's so many connections between all of those. Yeah, like, as he called out the language there in aria and even the language here in the theon right the idea of like he had no choice i mean same with rob he's pushed into a corner right yeah so interesting looking at rob's brain here compared to theon like that is something i don't think when we went through theon I thought about much, but now, reading through Rob, they're both pushed into an absolute corner. Yeah.

Everybody puts these babies into a corner. My fuck. Get the fuck out. Well, forgive me, as Catelyn thinks in that moment. Gods forgive him, Catelyn prayed in silence. He is only a boy and he had no other choice. That was the last she saw of her son that day. Wow, we just said the same thing, Catelyn.

Great minds. And also, yeah, he is only a boy. It's really not fair. Again, Ned had a Valyrian greatsword. Valyrian steel greatsword. The rain turns the godswood to mud and puddles, continuing on all morning. The Blackfish assembles a hundred men

to ride out after the Karstarks, though no one expects him to find that many. When he leaves, Catelyn retreats to Hoster Soler, sitting beside him. Vyman later warns her that it would not be long. Hoster still tries to fight, but his life is fleeting and Kat calls him a fighter.

Then we have this line of, but the maester says that this battle he cannot win. It is time he lay down his sword and shield. Time to yield. And then also to make a peace, she thinks. But is it Hoster he speaks of?

Or her son? The metaphors. They're all happening, these metaphors. At evenfall, Jane Westerling seeks Catelyn's guidance. Cat welcomes her, calling her her grace. Jane's like, oh, please just call me by my name. I don't feel like a grace. But Cat says, you are one nonetheless she sits at the hearth with her anxiously asking what should i do his wife

to help calm rob's misery and anger cat explains taking a man's life is hard jane agrees she says he should use a headsman like lord tywin cat. Cat's like, well, yes, that's easier, but my husband taught them that killing shouldn't be easy. Oh, she said, and then she began to scream. Pretty much. She's like, I guess I never thought of it that way, that killing could be bad. Jane says Rob hadn't eaten all day. He even refused supper that Rallum brought to him. Boar ribs, stewed onions, ale, I would eat that.

And he spent all morning writing a letter telling Jane not to disturb him. But at the end, he ends up burning the letter when he's done. Now he sits, gazing at maps. He hasn't changed his damp and bloody clothes. And when she speaks to him, she says it's like he doesn't even hear her. Oh, Rob, he killed the boy. He killed the boy. And now the man is there.

And that man. He also killed that other man, too. Yeah, that, too. So I find the letter very interesting here that Rob is writing something. It could be the beginning of his will. Or, you know, a lot of people theorize it could have been negotiations to Tywin. I think that's probably most likely since he's losing and the numbers don't add up. As Catelyn says earlier, she doesn't have to be a commander to understand the numbers. And this is before Duskendale hits right

in the last chapter we have Tywin winning wars with Gwil, strengthening another set of alliances and betrayals to come ruin Robb's life but Duskendale hasn't even hit yet at the end of A Clash of Kings in Arya's chapters we have her serving under Roose

a rider from Ser Helman had come two days past. Tallheart men had taken the castle of the dairies, accepting the surrender of its Lannister garrison after a brief siege. Tell him to put the captives to the sword and the castle to the torch, by command of the king. Then he's to join forces with Robet Glover and strike east toward Duskendale. Those are rich lands, hardly touched by fighting.

It's time they had a taste. Glover has lost a castle. Tallheart a son. Let them take their vengeance on Duskendale. I shall prepare the message for your seal, my lord. So Bolton fucks around on Rob real hard here, right? Sending these men east where they don't need to go. There's no reason for them to go to Duskendale.

And when this news does hit soon, it's Roose's first major sign of betrayal. And I love it's coming from Arya's chapters, right? Because we don't quite see it because of that. Because of the way it's delivered, we don't understand why this news is happening just that it's happening and we don't really know the effects until pretty much last tyrian chapter right that's what cements it when tyrian says duskendale there's nothing at duskendale worth such a risk have the young wolf finally blundered and tywinwin says, it's nothing you need trouble yourself with.

It's all over but the crying, Eliana. Damn, and the dying. As we're gonna find out. And the dying. I think that's really interesting, the idea that it could have been negotiations with Tywin. I hadn't considered that. Giving in. Yeah, I mean...

It's over. I mean, that's what... You lost the phrase. You lost the Karstarks. What's next? Right. And that's not like... I guess Rob thinks he can't.

He's pushing to a corner, but at the same time, that's... I mean, that's what Torrin Stark did, right? He would have rather that everyone lived than... than risk it. And that's what Catelyn's hoped for, right, this whole time, is that Rob will be wise enough to take off the crown and set it down to protect his people at some point. But this chapter kind of proved he won't do that at all, ever.

Yeah. Well, despairing, Jane asks how to be a good wife to Rob. She doesn't know if she should cheer him or comfort him, and she pleads for Catelyn's help. We have this passage of

Catelyn might have asked the same if her father had been well enough to ask. But Lord Hoster was gone or near enough. Her Ned as well. Bran and Rickon too, and Mother and Brandon so long ago. Only Rob remained to her. Rob and the fading hope of her daughters. Sometimes, Catelyn said slowly,

the best thing you can do is nothing. Catlin said slowly. part, I soon realized, he would not have been Ned. Jane, child, you have wed the North as I did, and in the North, the winters will come. She tried to smile. Be patient. Be understanding. He loves you, and he needs you, and he will come back to you soon enough. This very night, perhaps. Be there when he does. that is all i can tell you be there with open legs cadeline says that's kind of what she actually does say in like a second that's literally it the young queen is inspired by this eliana jane is inspired she says i will be there i should hurry back in case he missed me he didn't just so you know he didn't miss you in the two minutes you left not to be a dick but i'm just

saying he did not miss you honestly rob should have hit it and quit it if he was gonna drag this girl through all this shit yeah god cat calls after her saying oh jane there's one last thing you know a king needs to have an heir and jane smiles yeah she did she smiles at this my mother says the same she makes a posset for me herbs and milk and ale to help make me fertile i drink it every morning i told rob i'm sure to give him twins and eddard and a brandon he liked that i think we we try most every day my lady sometimes twice or more okay the girl blushed very prettily i'll be be the child soon. I promise. I pray to our mother above every night. You pray to the mother after you have sex. Oh, how could you bear to look at her, first of all?

Aren't we all ashamed? God. No, this sucks hard. You don't think about it at all on first read. And look, if I had read only cat chapters only cat chapters my whole time i would have caught this but it's right there right like a positive herbs milk ale with tansy and mint and wormwood a spoon of honey a drop of pennyroyal and you don't even get that until jamie's chapters i just poor jane jane defense club you

gotta look out for those girls i'm really starting to get worried you know like if you're born into a song of ice and fire and your name is jane yeah right it's not good for you i agree that's that's already like a negative 20 health hit and i do have to say like this is not just if you read cat chapters you'd get it but on reread with the tyrian chapter right before we get the answer right in the chapter before this from tyrian the crag is not so far from tarbeck and castamere tyrian pointed out you'd think the westerlings might have ridden past and seen the lesson there. Mayhaps they have, Lord Tywin said. They're well aware of Castamere, I promise you. Could the Westerlings and Spicers be such great fools as to believe the wolf can defeat the lion?

Every once in a long while, Lord Tywin would threaten to smile he never did but the threat alone was terrible to behold the greatest fools are oft times more clever than the men who laugh at them tywin said and then you will marry sansa stark tyrian and soon there's your answer. Yeah. You tie that marriage up and I'll deal with the rest. Indeed. Indeed. Damn. How long has he been waiting to say that line, right? Like, since he was, since maybe, what, Tywin was a teenager too?

Yeah. With what happened to his dad. But. Fuck. There's also, like, I feel it's really tempting there's a lot I want to say here about Rob we've talked about Rob a lot this episode but I feel like

we gotta save some thoughts for our Rob episode so I will refrain I will restrain myself on like I guess Jane and Rob and as we said up top, I do think it feels really important

that Sansa's brought up so often in this chapter. And it's really interesting because her fate she is so close to the Lannisters right now. The enemy house. And Jane is kind of in a similar position to what Sansa had been in.

Until recently where Sansa was betrothed to a king and now Jane's married to a king very very close and Kat does her best to make Jane feel at ease last chapter the catch is you know with everything going on and like Catelyn being a bad headspace and grieving and just having like committed treason also kind of her best and trying to make jane feel comfortable it's just like not a lot it's like two lines it's not a lot but now right now now they're really getting to interact and jane is coming to catelyn for womanly guidance and i think i kind of compare it right to cersei and sansa's interactions. It's different, in a way, from Cersei kind of just forcing her womanly guidance on Sansa.

It's like, Sansa, listen to me. Let me tell you when you get to be my age. Cersei's marriage, though, it is similar to Sansa's. It's with a man that she finds brutish and she dislikes, much as Sansa's relationship is with Joffrey. And Cersei does recognize those parallels between her and Sansa and kind of then projects a lot onto her. Whereas I think Jane and Cat, they have similar situations also, as Cat points out, right? They've wedded men with similar, very dour dispositions in the middle of war.

These men, they're very distant. very dour dispositions in the middle of war these men they're very distant and they were also grieving a huge like familial loss like the deaths of their fathers and brothers and like cersei kat imparts her wisdom and you know what at first at first when i was thinking about all this i was like they're really different the way that cersei and Cat approach these uh this life advice um in that you know Cat doesn't really force these harsh realities onto Jane in the same way that Cersei does to Sansa but upon further reflection of reading these I think that the nature of the advice that Catelyn passes on to Jane is actually quite similar in some ways to how Cersei does with Sansa because the circumstances and attitude that

Kat brings yeah it's a little different there's less bitterness right there's more love more patience in her advice but it's still very much the same sort of sense of bracing Jane for the future and what this marriage will entail especially like that emotional weight that it's going to take and whereas I feel like Cersei's ruminations and advice are much more, they lean more into that emotional aspect of what this is going to mean, Kat's advice is more focused on duty. There is, I think, an element of Cersei's advice that is kind of about duty, but I think it's more about what you have to endure in performing that duty

and being in that position whereas cat's advice is more of like how to live up to those expectations about duty not just survive they're much more kind of like aspirational within like that you know traditional westerosi sentence and cat and her duty reminds jane they remind jane that she has to provide rob in the air whereas interestingly i think circe you know when when this comes up in the conversation between circe and sanza she sort of more just agrees with sanza when she's pointing out like oh now that you've had your moon blood yeah that does mean you're going to need to be you know wedded and bedded and like sanza says that she must bear children for the king. And I will say, again, Cersei, what she does is she talks about

how horrible and the pain was of it, right? Catelyn doesn't talk about the pain in the same way. Cersei really brings up that visceral aspect. But she doesn't really say that Sansa has to produce an heir. Just bear children. Because, you know, after all, Cerce doesn't really do her duty right she doesn't really bear robert and air like sanza circe also finds her small rebellions and kind of plays a role in the death of her king which also lies on erin does too that's a really just a great picturesque way to look at it, because there is something interesting happening, right? In Clash, when Cersei says, like you said, she doesn't command her to bear children. She just says, well, you'll have to have children somehow.

Yeah. She doesn't say the how, what, or why. She's not going to project quite that onto her of what she's supposed to do. There's also the fact that sansa comes bleeding that she's gonna bear children for the king right and she knows that's the right thing to do and the right thing to say and where does she know that from well you turn to catalan who is saying to jane almost just like a heartbeat right like and surely you're ready to pop some kids out right because you know that comes with the job description.

And Cersei also seems to know that comes with it. Especially now that we're in a war. Yeah, especially with a war with no heirs around since all the men are dying and, you know, your daughter is now getting married to a traitor pretty soon, as you'll learn. Or to, you know, your enemy. But, like,

Jane, she almost approaches it like, well, you know it's expected jane but just to reiterate get working on those kids just in case you weren't already and jane's like oh we are all the time you know my hole is open for rob i am it is out there rob's ready i'm ready but cersei doesn't do that which is interesting and i think that's a very interesting comparison of like cat is so wrapped up in these societal tendencies that she says well you know what's expected of you so i don't have to actually really say it if i don't need to but i'm gonna have some kids and cersei who's lived those same societal expectations that have ripped her apart says just have kids

sansa make it happen and they'll make you happier in the end yeah she's like yeah this is i guess it's interesting because it is still what's expected of you but it's not like the the spirit of it is so different the cheat code yeah you can do it it is the cheat code but you don't have to do it exactly you can do it your own way and no one's gonna know they don't they can't check exactly. You can do it your own way, and no one's gonna know. They can't check yet. Surprise. Because, like, yeah, Cersei even, she was like, I mean, she just, when she didn't have to, right? She just would, like, basically just gives Robert, I guess, handjobs, I guess.

And whereas Catelyn would have done the whole thing. and whereas Catelyn would have done the whole thing yeah well and to that same extent there's also a little bit of like Catelyn just believes her king son is perfect right and there's no

I mean Cersei completely he is trying and I'm not saying he's bad at all we love Rob but Cersei she knows her son is flawed she kind of insinuates as much to sansa in a clash of kings and she's like yes joffrey hmm good luck on that one sansa but she straight up says that to her she's like yes i know joffrey's kind of a pest he's not great good luck with that worm and catelyn kind of assumes that rob is just the perfect end-all

be-all king husband for jane like you wanted it here's what you got and it is unfair because rob is emotionally disconnected jane is trying during this time right while also being manipulated it seems by her mother and taking potions from her mother to boost fertility uh gene's pretty you know she's she's very vulnerable right now too yeah and rob is cold and hardened and in pain emotional pain from what he's had to deal with and pushing her away so it does feel like a harsher sentence what cadeline kind of handed to her like well you are making babies right because that's your job and you're not good for anything else yeah you will receive love from this family but only if you meet these expectations yes the conditional love that catelyn has shown her family yes the same reason why aria is like scared to go home

yeah and i mean liza being scared to go home right that's the household they were raised in then and even even brendan blackfish right yeah i think absolutely obviously hoster i guess actually loved them he just did a bad job a really really bad job um and you know catelyn as you've pointed out right she loves aa, and we see that. But, but Jane, there's no, she doesn't feel any sort of real connection or responsibility to Jane, right? I mean, she's that Jane is a representation of like, there goes all our plans. And so she's even more of an spot of, you know, conditional... Yeah. She's not even like...

Sansa is obviously a useful hostage. Jane is not. She's not a hostage at all. She brings nothing. But love and support to Rob. He doesn't appreciate that. Chestnut pearls. Yeah, because there's a lot

going on with everyone. And Catelyn is... Good hips. Even Catelyn's not in a place to appreciate it. Yeah, but I will say, after speaking to Jane, Catelyn is pleased. Yeah. She is pleased after the conversation and she promises herself she'll add her prayers to the old gods and new

and when the girl has gone she turns to her father in his solar an eddard and a brandon she sighed softly and perhaps in time a hoster. Would you like that? He did not answer, but she had never expected that he would. As the sound of the rain on the roof mingled with her father's breathing, she thought about Jane. The girl did seem to have a good heart, just as Rob had said, and good hips, which might be more important. Cat, you can't just say that. Well, I mean, Kat is thinking of their legacy, right? Just as, you know, again, comparing it all back to,

I mean, maybe that's what Hoster was doing, right? Kat's just thinking of their legacy. Hoster was too, and he put that legacy ahead of everything but as also you pointed out earlier jane's being forced to take those abortifacients slash contraceptives without her knowledge again creating a parallel with the lies and hoster situation and for it to happen around this language, right? Of Kat speaking to her father and thinking of Jane's birthing hips and also Jane's hopes, her really big hopes right after getting married

of having a child. And so it's like those sins of Hoster coming back around. Now it's like haunting, like maybe cursing his grandchild, not just in the veil with Liza withholding her strength, but in a mirror of what he did to eliza happening to jane from her mother and jane being used as a political pawn by her family and i i would say you know possibly is it even worse that it's her own mother doing this to her daughter

her own mother's machinations especially as her mother being a woman inflicting this harm knows like what that means and is perpetuating that I don't know like justice but it's still again very much like how Liza was used by Hoster in the last war same here with this war it is it's warfare on her body yeah it's

it's so upsetting um and I have to say it's like expertly woven in by George for this these arcs are started at similar times and woven together Liza's arc coming to the forefront of what actually happened to her not just her being some crazy shrill girl you know that's not who she is like there's a reason why she became this person and uh it's interesting to me to watch like liza and jane come to the forefront of being these faces these marriage faces of a rebellion

right because cat and liza were very important to marry these men in the middle of a war it was a very symbolic marriage it was for swords as we all know but at the time it was a big marriage to bring these sides together to to cement an alliance and yeah i i feel for jane i feel really bad for jane i mean i think it's very fair to say she had no clue no clue absolutely yeah now i suddenly see in this and i should have mentioned this last time now i see why hoster insisted that they all get married before the war starts looking at what happened with rob yeah it is a mess now i get it too it is okay it it is very robert's rebellion in these ways too there's so much robert's rebellion happening the dead kids the secret marriages and the pacts and the betrayals raygar supposed to be married to

ellia rob's supposed to be married to a fray oh but wait last second switch over and i do have to add as we end the episode today i do have to add that cat wistfully says and maybe even a Hoster. No one ever wants to name their child Hoster. I kind of agree. First of all, I wouldn't, and it's kind of funny because no one said that. Jane did not say that.

But Catalan's like, and maybe someday Hoster. Hoster to her dad as he dies, and no one's gonna name their motherfucking son hoster yeah like i so i don't know where the name hoster comes from but i'm also just like even outside of like the hoster like till i think i just don't like it as a name all right like i just don't think it's a very appealing name. Again, I don't know its roots, but Urban Dictionary has a term for Hoster, or it says Hoster, I don't know.

But Urban Dictionary has said, Term given to middle-aged men who are still single and only just recently moved out of their parents' home or still live at home, usually work a lot and make no time for romance, not that they can get girls i'm like damn this is so harsh but i i don't know i turned i guess i associate the term hoster with like livestock and i don't know why it's not like a flattering name well it's funny sorry if any of you are named hoster or anything similar oh my god sorry about your life my bad i'm so sorry for shitting on your name well it is so it comes from host right host to host a sojourner visitor guest oh uh an owner a host a husband right so to give you a little etymology it is middle english and old french yeah it's still like not like i don't know does not sound cool right i probably wouldn't name my child after him i'd name my kid walder before i

named it hoster like ignoring like all the context of these books just going purely by name sounds well if i like had never read these books and someone just put the names walder and hoster in front of me i'd be like i'm gonna pick walder okay so eliana would name her child after a fray jot that one down everyone i mean i've got a my name is like similar to she's kind of a fray she's related like a viperin technically Like, similar to... She's kind of a fray. She's related. Like a viperine, technically. Eliana Viperine.

She's in the books, allegedly. Eliana, you came first. I actually did. For once. God damn it. That never happens with George. I know, right? Every now and then I say that's true and I'm lying. You have to think about it for a second.

I'm lying, but sometimes it could it for a second yeah like i'm lying like but sometimes it could be true it definitely could be true oh my god like face off in jurassic park um anyway i think we did a good job keeping it kind of light-hearted fuck fuck off eliana jesus god damn it it gets worse everyone next week sucks next week sucks next Catelyn episode sucks Catelyn 4 get ready for sad shit to go down like Hoster's death right isn't that soon

yeah Hoster's death Rob losing more of his kingdom shit getting worse Sansa getting married it's all coming it's all great death this is fine

this is fine the house is on fire and this is fine that's them thanks so much for listening to us as we get deeper and deeper into the dumpster fire of the end of House Tully here but that fire is gonna bring her back fire deeper and deeper into the dumpster fire of the end of House Tully here. The fire,

but that fire is going to bring her back. Oh, fire white. And if you want to talk about bringing back Kat or other things, you can reach us over at social media and Twitter at girls gone. Canon C A N O N. Or, you know, you could send us an email or a message telling us what you thought

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tier and above get access to discord and once a month we have our brunch happy hour which this month will be on september 26th from 1 to 3 p.m eastern standard time the theme again will be mythos i am excited for that. Very excited. Thanks so much for listening in this week to Catalan 3. We can't wait to be back with Catalan 4 in A Storm of Swords. I have been one of your hosts, Chloe. And I have been another one of your hosts, Eliana. See you next time.

Goodbye. Stay happy.