Girls Gone Canon Cast - ASOIAF Episode 139 - ASOS Catelyn IV

Episode Date: October 1, 2021

As the Starks and Tullys say farewell to one more family member, King Robb wonders, “I have won every battle, yet somehow I’m losing the war.” Two representatives promise amends but really, they're promising just -ends- --- Eliana's twitter: https://twitter.com/arhythmetric Eliana's reddit account: https://www.reddit.com/user/glass_table_girl] Eliana's blog: https://themanyfacedblog.wordpress.com/ Chloe's twitter: https://twitter.com/liesandarbor Chloe's blog: www.liesandarborgold.com Intro by Anton Langhage

Hello and welcome to Girls Gone Canon, reads A Song of Ice and Fire, episode 139, Catlin IV in a Storm of Swords. I am one of your hosts, Chloe. And I am another one of your hosts, Aliana. And here we are back with Catlin. We're almost to the end. You know, we had to, you know, take a week off for our His Dark Materials episodes that we've put out. And now we're back into the misery that is the last three chapters

of Catelyn Stark. I cannot believe that we are almost to the end. And we have a lot planned for all of you. Not just what George has planned for you. Not just the part where everyone dies. That's coming too. We also have invited guests.

That is a big plan. We've invited guests and we are not going to kill them. No, we are not going to kill them. We do have two last guests coming on for Catelyn before we move on to a brand new point of view, which, if you're a patron and you're in

right now, if you're in the Sweetfoot and the Zorst tier, you have access to the next POV. It will be rolling out for all patron tiers over the next few weeks. And then the public will know in our last Catalan episode. But for next week, we do have a wonderful guest joining us. She's been on with us before. I'm excited for her to come back for, especially for Catalan 5.

I love Catalan 5. I'm excited for her to come back for, especially for Cattle in Five. I love Cattle in Five. We are so excited to have Lady Gwynn from Radio Westeros coming back, you know, to talk about Auburn-haired women. Yes, a perfect person for the job. And, you know, I don't know if we're going to have her read any Liza quotes this time, but she still has, hands down, the best Liza. We had her back on Tronza 7, A Storm of Swords, so it's uncanny to bring her back for another chapter in Storm, a Tully chapter this time.

I'm excited. Yes, only Tully chapters. Actually, though, she was really good as Liza. She should consider doing a passage for Ice and fire con or something some year that passage i would love to see her act that just have her live act that you should do a john snow one how about that i could i could really bastard motherless damned that was for all my fans at home you know it's for you then I can bring in a Yorick he's not in this series

but you know why the fuck not it's funny because you said Yorick and I just thought you meant Tormund oh yeah they're similar but not really you know anyway a bear fucked a bear we're close you know

but yes so we're going to have lady gwyn joining us for i i mean it's a big chapter all the chapters after this are really big we're all three of them now yes all three no but actually though that i do mean it no i do too because this one's kind of skinny this is like a skinny little chapter i was surprised there's like there's a good amount of emotion lots of emotion to fill the cracks in the pages with you know but uh not quite as much happening in my opinion and the next chapter is just a fun chapter going back going back to walder and seeing the phrase again and and and ugh. And Bolton. Mm-hmm.

Just a lot. But this chapter is great. This has some sad stuff. Some good Edmure action. Edmure really upstages everyone. Yeah, there's a lot in this, I think, that starts setting the tone and the pace for the things that happen afterwards. Like their death. Yeah. I was gonna say

in the sadness, but the sadness has been ongoing things that are also still sad by the time that this is out for the public we will have put out our latest Patreon episode which is available to all patrons in the

$5 tier and above the stranger tier and above and it compliments a lot of these episodes right there are some things that we're like holding ourselves back on we're ready to dive in and we're like oh we gotta talk about it here instead yeah you know what i think it's gonna be exciting to really focus a little more on some of the war stuff and some of the battles just like what Rob would be experiencing in this chapter in our Girls Gone Canon Rob POV, the ultimate POV chapter for Rob Stark. And I think also a lot of his upbringing at Winterfell is going to be really fun to dive

into and talk about because it's something that we think about in kind of the eyes of some of the other Stark POV children, but you don't really get a chance to think about it for Rob. Yeah, absolutely. So we want to kind of like dig into like, we're hinted, we're given hints of it throughout Catlin's chapters, especially of what Rob might be feeling, but really see what's going on maybe in Rob's interiority and how that would relate to some of the larger themes that we see in the books. and I think a lot of what Rob's legacy will ultimately be right in the eyes of his

siblings and of the north how he's looked on I do hope I'm sure we'll talk about he better get himself a place in that crypt yeah who knows I mean like it's it's a it's who knows what's happening to people's bones right now it's's all gravy. Hopefully not actually gravy. Well, no bones about that. Yeah, you can, in fact, make gravy with bones, but hopefully they're not doing that. You know what, maybe we can save some more of this talk for tomorrow, you know? Get it? Tomorrow. Oh, yeah, yeah. Took me a second. Got him.

Yeah, you did get him. You did indeed get him. Well, you know, we just had our brunch for our Discord friends and patrons over at Discord. Patrons in the Thunder tier, $10 and above, have access to Discord where we just, we do a lot of bullshitting. All of us. It's a very fun time. And monthly we do a brunch slash happy hour we do like presentation potlucks on a theme games giveaways get to know yous people have a drink or a snack and just hang out and vibe this week we talked we didn't even play jackbox games we usually play jackbox games

and we all just talked about a swath it was a very nice relaxed time actually i really enjoyed it yeah we even went over time a little and absolutely and sometimes we'll do yeah trivia our friend julie helped us do that in july but yeah yeah there's also a couple of you you know i just want to say if you're listening to this episode and keeping up who are in the thunder tier who have not joined us yet on discord and you know just here's your reminder we're waiting yeah we're not come hang out with you we're waiting i was like this this is ominous this is ominous in this uh in the context of this chapter this book series dark flame light horse oh. Light horse. Uh oh. Oh my god. My bad. We are waiting for you.

Come hang out with us. I actually really enjoy the Discord. There's a lot of like, sometimes we all just bitch about our lives at work. Sometimes people just post their cats. Sometimes people post songs they're listening to. Nothing but vibes. Someone posted something. Our friend Steve posted something about the Goofy movie. And I'm trying to figure out where that was i want to talk about the goofy movie

it was about a storm of swords our friend steve posted about how the goofy movie would make a great musical for a storm of swords i'm pretty sure that's where he was taking it that's fascinating so come read more about that on the girls gone canon discord uh you can check out our patreon over at patreon.com slash girls gone canon c-a-n-o-n and uh we really appreciate your support you don't got to support us we will continue putting out these episodes but yeah we will we will still put these out it's fine uh we will also put out other episodes right about as chloe's pointed out a couple times already the his dark materials book series we

are also actually getting towards the end of the original series of the amber spyglass we're i don't know maybe about a third of the way or so right through the last at least book some something The last book. Something around that. Honestly, we might be halfway. A little past halfway. Yeah, so that's exciting. And we also, we've said it before, but for August, our Patreon episode was about Elle Enchanted, and we

do have a couple of other books that we are interested in covering very soon. Yeah. Keep an eye out. Keep an eye out on your Patreon feed, because we will be putting out some episodes like that on different series. I have convinced Eliana yet again to try to start another book. So we'll see. We'll see. It's one I've had on my list for a while, so I'm excited.

You're gonna like it. I already know you are. I can't wait till you read these books that I've recommended. But you know, I think we might even this month we kind of did a mythology theme at brunch and I'm excited for next month for spooky October for the Starks to die and you know, war

with God and all the fun things we have. But I think we're gonna do a spooky brunch next month. Yeah. Of sorts. Of sorts. We're not quite sure yet in which way it will be scary fun things we have but i think we're gonna do a spooky brunch next month yeah we are of sorts of sorts we're not quite sure yet in which way it will be scary but we'll we'll figure that out and we will announce both the date and the theme for that as we decide it but spooky episodes speaking speaking of things that are maybe october halloween spooky themed I want to thank our friend Megan who sent us an email

of note of some of her pets two of them being cats, one a hamster and one of those cats is a void which is a term for a black cat so very, very much appreciated very festive, and I also want to say

while no one has sent us pictures of their chinchilla yet as far as i can tell this hamster that megan has sent fluffy at first i did think was a chinchilla it does have chinchilla energy so i appreciate it very much i love i love chinchillas but that hamster was so small. So cute. So cute. Thank you, Megan, for sending us that. And I did have to say I loved gazing at the void. You know, that was my favorite. Gazing at the void was fun.

And speaking of looking into the void, we got another email of note. I want to thank our friend Pete, a.k.a aka Green Plankton, for sending us a what-if scenario regarding what if Rob had offered justice rather than vengeance to Rickard Karstark and this idea of sending Rickard Karstark to the wall, and then would it have allowed things to fall differently in terms of would Alice Karstark have been able to go to Rob, right, to warn her of what her family was planning? And it was interesting, and it kind of got me thinking about some different what-ifs of like, what if, I mean, similar idea, what if Rob had offered justice rather than vengeance to Rickard Kstark, for example, what if he had offered I don't know, I went on this random thought of like, what if he had sent Rickard Karstark to take Harrenhal instead of Roose Bolton, right? Kept Roose Bolton close, which he should have done in the first

place. Roose Bolton was untrustworthy and being super sketchy and yeah, and would that have appeased Rickard Karstark's, you know, wounds in terms of his losses and also acknowledged the sacrifices that he made while also acknowledging his importance in the North as well as their proximity to the Starks, while also keeping him far, far away from the Lannister prisoners? Not that they thought like, you know, why would they even think that Rickard Karstark would do such a thing, right? They didn't. But, you know, it would have also addressed that too. So it's not like a

misstep on Rob's part, but. No, that's true. And I do love some of the ideas that our friend Green Plankton Pete sent along of what it would do to the plot in terms of freeing other plot lines up. He went on to add that, you know, maybe Arya and Sandor arrive late to the twins and they get killed in crossfire. That's horrible. That's devastating. Right. But also that maybe it stops Arya because she actually gets to see her family. It stops her from traveling to go be a faceless man.

your family it stops her from traveling to go be a faceless man or maybe they go back safely and sandor ends up asking for whatever he could want to return her safely like service to an honorable northern house as a master at arms or kennel master i was like i see you this is a targeted ad in my email this is targeted but just some really yeah very targeted but then he closed it out and he said justice might or maybe create more justice but usually vengeance can only create sorrow and more vengeance and never create justice and he said that a lot of these fun what if ideas are fun but for example sandor really needs the quiet isle to work through his hound persona not just exchanging a southern warlord for a northern one. And I thought that was a really thoughtful look at vengeance in the series and justice and what it really means as we go into Catelyn's plot again.

Yeah. So thank you for sending that, both of you. And if you, dear listener, have an animal you would like to share, we are, again, always open. Yes, open to animals. And to you animals with all your thoughts. If you animal would like to get on the computer like Keyboard Cat or the other cats that I've seen, you know, be like, it's shit posting time. I love that gif. I love that gif of the fluffy gray cat. If you were that animal, please

also send us selfies of yourself as a cat. Please call. Yes. That takes us into what we missed between Catelyn III and A Storm of Swords. And now Catelyn IV A Storm of Swords in our lightning round

starting off with Jaime III. The brave companions fight Brienne and Jaime, killing Kleos. Vargo Hoth takes vengeance on Jaime. Arya 4. Arya meets the ghost of Highheart while the Brotherhood searches for Beric Dondarrion. Daenerys 2. Daenerys ponders taking the Unsullied as warriors. She finds pleasure in Eerie. Bran too. And the Mystery Knight should win the tourney, defeating every challenger, and name the wolfmaid the Queen of Love and Beauty.

She was, said Meera. But that's a sadder story. Davos III. Melisandre tells Davos he'll be needed by the Lord of Light. Later, he's joined by a new traitor in jail, Alistair Florent. Jon III. Jon was pried from ghosts, but joins his body with someone new. Ygritte.

Ugh. Daenerys III. Drogon, she's saying. Dracarys. Sansa III. Sansa is caged in her wedding dress. Arya 5. Arya learns of the Battle of the Bells from Harwin.

The Brotherhood captures Sandor Clegane. Jon 4. The Free Folk's climb is in vain. No one finds the Horn of Jormun. And by that we mean actually no one. No one finds the Horn of Jormun. And by that we mean actually no one. No one finds the Horn of Jormun. Ah, no one actually knows. Yeah, rip.

Jaime 4. Jaime's calls of Tarth Sapphires save Brienne from some of the worst of the Bloody Mummers. Qyburn cleanses Jaime's infected wound at Harrenhal where Roose disavows the Mummers' actions. Tyrion 4. Tyrion's money isn't enough to silence Simon's silver tongue. House Lannister gains two Valyrian swords. Interesting.

Pycelle brings news of the Wall. Gotta crack some eggs to make some Valyrian swords. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Samwell 2. Elsie Mormont faces betrayal. Betrayal. Sam and Gilly must flee. Aria 6.

Sander Clegane faces a trial by fire for his crimes. No, he hates fire. That's not right. No. C's not right. No. Catalin IV. Hoster Tully's time has come to pass on through the river, but Catalin's already grieved that death, and worse news comes to Riverrun of certain miscommunications happening throughout the northern faction.

But the Bolton family has it all covered. Don't worry. I'm so glad that they control the communications they control the internet right now in the north good for them web the bolton comcast uh my god well we start our chapter with catalan thinking let the kings of winter have their cold crypt under the earth the tollies drew their strength from the river and it was to the river they returned when their lives had run their course get it run their course because you know river in their course but anyway so this opening makes me think of what will happen to catalan's body all right we've discussed

previously about how catalalin straddles the northern and southern cultures. She's born in one, she assimilates into another, and also in her thoughts she seems to reject the northern burials here, right? Specifically those of the Starks. We don't know that the other northern houses have similar

traditions, per se. But when it comes time for Catalin to die, though her body is kind of returned to the river it's done so in an absolutely corrupted way right it's dumped there unceremoniously naked compared to Hoster's really regal burial that we see here yet the north Nymeria pulls her body back out from the river so does that mean that the river rejects her or does that speak to again her no longer necessarily being a tully but she's also not buried amongst the crypts either does she ever return to the river later who knows perhaps not we don't know

we don't have these next few books but there is something to be said here maybe of this idea of like a third culture that that experience that people have when they're moving from one into another and then sort of feeling rejected from both of them feeling like their own right maybe as cat becomes lady stoneheart and but but also different in that there aren't necessarily other undead that she's part of a culture with it it's mostly just her it's just her being rejected from the earth i know that's an absolutely stellar point only because when you say it that way you know we know that she comes back as a fire white basically right so elementally fire and the north rejected her the south rejected her like you said

and she embraces i mean she's embraced, she's consumed by this magic. Consumed, yeah. And we don't really know what connection she has to that, but I think it's really pointed that the chapter that comes right before this, Arya, is her first introduction to R'hllor, right? And Arya's the one who accidentally pulls Mom out of the river, right, with Nymeria and brings her to that fiery fate of people that she was traveling with for a short while. And I think there's just something pointed in that third culture being cat becoming Lady Stoneheart being a fire white.

Yeah, I feel like in regards to what happens, I feel like that meme right of Eric Andre. Let me in. Let me for the books. Let me in. What happens? Look at the flowers, ma'am. Look at the flowers. Oh my god.

You know? Well. So, while we wait for what happens, they're putting Hoth's corpse in a boat. He's in his armor with his cloak beneath him. It's specifically his House Tully cloak. He's in his armor with his cloak beneath him. It's specifically his house Tully cloak. He's also got a trout great helm beside him and a painted wooden sword on his chest. His hands are upon it.

And his hands are covered in gauntlets, which hide how skinny, you know, his hands have become in his age. And then he also has his shield on his left side and his hunting horn on the right i love this setup for this funeral because you know when powerful men die no i'm just kidding um i do actually like the funeral setups because we don't really get funeral setups yeah right uh it's one of the few displays we actually get besides it's parallel in the beginning of the next book, right, to Tywin's funeral. The Silent Sisters had armored Tywin as if to fight some

final battle with his great helm beside him with the two lions lounging. And Hoster's trout helm, I know it's a trout helm, it's not very badass sounding, but it is kind of cool. We don't get a lot of great helms described in the book. So Hoster's Trout Helm, Tywin's Lions, and Balin's Swan has a big swan-winged helm. He has two white wings. It's kind of ridiculous. I love it. Very big Cardcaptor Sakura vibes. Yes, yes, absolutely.

It makes me hope that Harry the air has some ridiculous armor helm for him you know some falcon shit and i mean like renly had those antlers he had a great beautiful helm with the antlers on it but i don't know i i want some more helms but coming back to these funerals i find them so similar in kind of some of the betrayal and grief happening in them, right? They knew he was going. He hasn't been the man he was in years. He died a very different man than he was where Tywin died in the midst of showing his true colors. And when Haster dies, it's kind of a time of peace almost. It's sorrowful and grief, but it's really kind of peaceful for their cause like they could use just

a goddamn moment of rest and i love the touch of laying the shield next to him it's oak and iron just to just to point out my oak and iron stuff here it's oak and iron but his sword isn't put next to him his sword isn't there which i was interesting. He doesn't really have an ancestral sword, so that I guess doesn't matter, but it does still show kind of a pocket view into who Hoster was. He loved to hunt, to fight. He was religious, as we'll see, represented in this service. He could have just been some random guy, someone's dad, right? Kat and Edmure's dad, random guy someone's dad right cat and edmure's dad someone's grandpa rob someone you know who no one actually knew him to be fair and some people might have known him more than others like brendan who were there maybe more than he even knew himself and funerals are just like this big collection of grief about what things were in the past what things are now and what things could have been and will be and it's a it's a very like peaceful sad scene at the river yeah and i think what kind of shakes

me about the peacefulness of it right is i i mean like you said people have had time to come to terms with hoster's death right i mean catelyn does and Edmure does, right? Catelyn and Edmure do. And so does Brynden. But Hoster, Hoster himself wasn't at peace. We'll find out in a bit when he died. Yeah.

Well. No peace. No fucking peace. The rest of the boat is filled with kindling that will help it burn and stones to make it heavy so that later it'll sink his banner flies from the prow and seven men were chosen to push the boat in they represent the faith and those men are rob the lord's bracken blackwood vance and malister sir mark pi Lothar Frey, who we'll learn soon is there in lieu of Sir Desmond Grell. The Freys had sent people down here for an answer to, you know, what's going on, and Lothar Frey turns out came with 40 soldiers for an escort, so that's two

times 20 good men. Commanded by Wal walder rivers they had come within hours of hoster's passing and this pisses off ednir because he he feels kind of insulted by the representatives that walder fray has sent and cat agrees that it was likely a pointed choice an intentional choice on walder's part but it reminds everyone of Walder Frey's bad qualities, including that he is prideful, but at least Rob acts courteous towards them. Ugh, I honestly really love a lot of the intrigue and politics that comes up here. It might be some of my favorite Frey stuff.

I do love next week's chapter, Cat 5, but I really do love the duel of Lothar and Walder Rivers, and we're going to talk about that in a little bit. But there's something really fucked up here, which is that they literally took Desmond Grell aside, who's worked there since Cat was a kid, and they were like, hey, can I spit in your mouth a little? I'm going to need you to step aside so these asshole fray kids that we've never even really met for more than three minutes uh so they can actually bury hoster tully as like a pr thing for them just to get in the good graces and obviously they're kind of like we have to do whatever the fuck they want right now uh but it's even more insult to not only Hoster's memory, but kind of to Riverrun, right?

This is an intentional slight being done. They knew they'd have to replace someone. And they've replaced Desmond Grell, who's put his blood and sweat into this place. Yeah. It's just one of the many, many slights happening. But Desmond Grell has been a company man for so long and this is how he's treated and this is one of the many things that like catalan's pov makes it so obvious to all of us in this chapter that every intended slight that could be being

made by the phrase is being made and she's hoping against hope that it's all like incidental but every single thing she says in this chapter as she talks about the phrase and her kind of her inner monologue it comes to pass yeah i think she like hopes she's like that's fine let them get their insults in now as long as you know it helps them feel better and we all come out fine at the end you know this is just like a growing pains thing or whatever but uh you know it's gonna be painful all right it's gonna be the opposite of growing it will be dying pains but as as you said the desmond girl thing is really sad i mean he's already been put into quite a few difficult positions this book thanks to Catelyn's actions and then on top of all of that this so

Catelyn thinks that Rob has had to learn a difficult lesson but they are thankful that the Freys are here though despite everything and so anyway anyway as part of this burial the men they get in the water they go like launch Hoster's body on this boat he's on

a boat he's got his flippy floppies and we have this line of you know i i think it's kind of self-explanatory so i've included it here but it's catelyn watch from the battlements waiting and watching as she had waited and watched so many times before so we get that reprise again of those that language of waiting and watching that we've talked about a lot. And then also this part's real sad. She also thinks Brandon Rickon

will be waiting for him. Catelyn thought sadly. As once I used to wait. Just in case you want to be stabbed in the heart repeatedly already ahead of time but yeah i mean the good news is brandon rick and are not waiting for him no brandon rick and are alive they're not like well but they're alive and they're gonna be well hopefully maybe probably probably probably be okay they could use therapy yeah everyone in this fucking series true therapy i could use therapy jesus

so the boat containing hoster exits the water gate and goes into the rising sun brendan gives lordmure arrows to launch, to launch an arrow on fire, which Kat is still struggling to wrap her head around how her baby brother is a lord, but it falls short of the boat. Edmure blames the wind, lights a second, and he falls short again,

and now he's starting to obviously be ashamed about it. Brynden offers to do it, but Edmure insists he can. This last arrow almost reaches the shaft, and this one passes the boat. The boat's out of sight as Edmure gives up and curses, but Brendan takes it and makes the shot. So for the most part, I think that these lines are meant to sort of characterize Edmure as, you know, sort of a dutz, right? Like, putting around failing to live up to the Westerosi ideals of masculinity when it comes to their leaders and what they expected them. But, you know, we've also seen, I will say, an argument with that, like, from Westerosi history that, you know, sometimes the best fighter isn't necessarily the best leader, and vice versa. And I mean, yeah, Edmure's like an okay fighter but we know he

cares about his people and i think so i don't know that the text is necessarily saying this based on the other ways that we see edmure i don't know where it's going but i i so maybe a part of this is just like doing some i don't know wishful reading on my part but does this mean does the falling short of the arrows and then the passing like mean maybe that edmure at first kind of falls short of hostress legacy and the things that are asked of him right we see we see edmure display immaturity at times as a leader and also kind of as an adult but perhaps it means that ultimately maybe like ednier misses that last shot as a symbol of actually surpassing hoster one day being a better leader and perhaps even a better father than hoster was it is a thought that's a really great thought because I think a lot of what we're

seeing, especially for this younger generation, is seeing them transform what they learned from their parents or from people that raised them for better or for worse, right? Definitely for better or for worse. And I actually really read it as having so much to do with Edmure's like, I mean, so Catelyn being raised in the Westerosi female standards, right? And what she's supposed to be doing versus Edmure A. I don't think he was quite raised, as we've discussed, to be the heir heir like he probably should have been. There's a lot on his masculinity kind of being torn from him in this chapter that we'll talk about later that he's like having his choice taken away for like the first time you know other than this year like this whole year and he even gets some of that theon treatment i feel like

in tempering his cocky arrogance and masculinity in a pretty awful way. Yes, definitely. I think we, yeah, as you said, we started to see it a little in those Jamie chapters where he interacts with Edmure and I'm like, go Edmure, go. So, it's a hope. It is a hope of mine. And then I do want us to

read aloud the passage of where the Blackfish does succeed in lighting the boat on fire just because it's really good. But as the shot rose, she saw the flames trailing through the air, a pale orange pennon. The boat had vanished in the mists. Falling, the flaming arrow was swallowed up as well, but only for a heartbeat. falling the flaming arrow was swallowed up as well but only for a heartbeat then sudden as hope they saw the red bloom flower the sails took fire and the fog glowed pink and orange for a moment catalan saw the outline of the boat clearly wreathed in leaping flames watch for me, little cat. She could hear him whisper. So, I have a new thought now that we've just read this aloud, but we have talked about this concept enough in previous chapters that I do think it feels self-explanatory, but I want to put it here because I want us to be sad.

I wanted us to be sad, so that's why I had us reread cad being like watch me little cat as her father's body disappears so let us just cry and i'm also thinking now like you know we were talking about catelyn's body and the burial and you uh brought up her being a fire white again this is kind of the same right you know, the river there with the body and then the bringing back to life as they go to their afterlife and then the fire on the boat. I'm just saying. Yeah, no, that's actually...

I didn't really think about that, of her father being consumed here and what brings her back, really. And a lot of the imagery it's really bright imagery and it's interesting you say that because as soon as i reread it and i was reading it the red bloom flower also stood out to me it reminded me of a lot of the way george describes blood in the series or somebody being injured like a flower of red blooming on their thigh but also reminded me of the blue flower in the chink of ice yeah like a hundred percent i thought

about that uh in the the vision for daenerys and john generis we love generis john neris yeah i mean it's apparently george has said like to some people in some words or way, like, that's where it's all going towards. And I think that's a great point because it does have similar imagery. And I like, I don't know, I just love that line of, then, sudden as hope, they saw the red bloom flower. That idea that the light can also be hope and not just destructive, even though it is disintegrating his body here, but whatever. pope and not just destructive even though it is disintegrating his body here but whatever i do think it kind of is somewhat relatable too with the the stuff with melisandre and davos the next chapter i believe is a davos chapter and uh it does have some lord of light connotations in it

and of course the aria chapter before this again being so strong of relore and the davos chapter a little bit before that as well, having Melisandre explain you know, the Lord of Light's not done with you, Davos. Fucking buckle up, buddy. And that kind of makes me think of that here as well in those terms. Lots of fire shadowing, you could say.

Oh! Fire shadowing. Well, the fire does cast shadows on the wall. That's what Melisandre told me. Hmm. Well, the fire does cast shadows on the wall. That's what Alessandra told me. Cat reaches for Edmure's hands, but he's far away now, standing alone at the highest point of the battlements. So Brynden comes and takes Catelyn's hand instead. Together they watch the boat dwindle and then disappear down the river, or sinking, who knows. They're legitimately unsure we have another line that i just wanted to put here again because i just felt like us being

sad would be good the weight of his armor would carry lord hosser down to rest in the soft mud of the riverbed and the watery halls where the tullys held eternal court, with schools of fish their last attendance. I just like the language. I love the language. It reminds me of Patchface a lot. Yeah. It does. Especially the watery halls,

and along with his red wedding prophecy, right? Yeah. And even some of the, you can see a little bit of like those connections between the ironborn culture and and the riverlands right because once upon a time they were the same kingdom yes the watery halls that's two of the that's true of the drowned god well and your rocks off once the boat is gone and caitlin wants to hug him but knows that now is not the time because now edmure has to project the lord of Riverrun and be that lord and then there's a line of it walling

him off from something as small as a sister's grief and I thought that was really important to call out that this idea of death and in general death can be very isolating the grief of it right we saw it happen in caitlin's chapter in the way that she wanted to be alone and was very silent during that dinner with brianne and she's like brianne don't you want to go hang out with other people and brie was like no i don't want that but caitlin that's why i'm nice yeah but but that sometimes what people want to grieve and how they deal with it differently, but also that Edmure doesn't have the chance to really mourn and be sad in those moments. And that really isolating effect of toxic masculinity on how he has to perform leadership, that leadership doesn't allow vulnerability in that way. And we also kind

of see that uh happen for rob right later on i mean we've been seeing it happen in his character but we'll see it happen a bit more as the chapter progresses i mean edmure's not that old he's younger than cat he's younger than me yeah he's younger than me isn't he cat he's younger than me yeah he's younger than me isn't he hell i know how i grieve i did have a point i swear uh knowing how i grieve like and i'm a young uh knowing that he could be younger than i am and that he's like grieving a parent dying that's that's a fucking heavy thing to grieve and it's a lot to go through and Kat comments on it throughout this chapter on how, you know, he's been drinking. He's been avoiding actually dealing with it. And she's already dealt with that.

You know, she was traded on the spot to a new husband and was like, sorry, he died. Got to marry this one. I mean, these things are kind of more flippant for her. She had to learn to grieve far earlier than he did. Absolutely. And a lot of things happen soon after that in terms of what he suddenly has to do in terms of yeah the responsibilities and part of me wonders you know there's there's obviously maybe he wanted his father to be there for some of the other moments of his life right

like to choose to to pass on the lordship or maybe you know when he finally does get married but then maybe he shouldn't have delayed i don't know anyways maybe he wanted to learn these things from his dad and i do think like he spent some of his younger years maybe not when he should have and not in a horrible way because we all do that but like maybe you know you can't plan when that's going to be taken from you and that opportunity to just be able to go up to your dad's solar and say dad how would i do this in war or how would i do this or dad tell me how you defeated you know and fought in the nine penny kings and all this stuff he just can't go do it now and it is big maybe he thought that hoster was always going to be there in his solar waiting for him just like hoster always told

cat to wait for him yeah and I think there's a lot of parallels there right between what Edmure and Rob are feeling but neither of them can really take that comfort in one another because they have to project that sort of pride and strength and leadership but also they're caught in a trap

at the moment where they're kind of taking it out on each other it's going great it's going great well the only semi-adjusted person here is of course the blackfish brendan longs to tell edmure there's no shame in missing a shot after all of this apparently hoster did too when their father died but cat is like only the first one though no no one needed that reminder okay but you know i guess no one really heard it but he's trying to give the boy courage i know right sandra edmure took hoster's passing so hard drunkenly lamenting he hadn't been there when his father

passed away and he's like cat cat caddy did dad speak of me and she's like nope but she doesn't say that she lied and she's like he whispered your name edmure he whispered your name but his last words were tansy sad sad shit yeah and then he goes on to try to talk more about archery and stuff and uh she decides to hold her tongue about her thoughts on hangovers and archery absolutely this is not the time not the time not gonna get into this fight right now when catelyn sees rob he's with jane and bannerman and rob silently holds his mother and embraces her. Yeah, so Edmure wouldn't comfort Kat.

It seems like Kat didn't seem that interested in comforting Edmure either, but wanting to be comforted based on her internal thoughts. So maybe that's for the best. And also, you know, I guess Edmure couldn't find it to break his isolation yet in his grief. But we once again see Rob sort of taking on this parentified role for Cat, same as in early Game of Thrones when it comes to that sort of grief. He's the one comforting her since, I mean, he doesn't take this death as hard, right? He didn't really know Hoster that well. Neither does Jane, right? She offers some compliments on H hoster's appearance saying that he looked like a king which interestingly i mean you drew the parallel earlier to hoster's funeral and tywin's so i thought that that's an interesting wording but also i'm

wondering yeah is this uh is this foreshadowing of maybe how Hoster is a grandfather to royalty? If we can take the charting of the Game of Thrones award-winning HBO television show as any indication, which I think we probably can. No, I mean, there is that line of, you know, he'll be father to kings, etc. So, you know he'll be father to kings yeah etc so you know it could be there there's there's evidence in these books that yeah the people wrote about the show yeah yeah the i mean they they got this from the show so oh my god um both jane and rob are both very happy newlyweds here that didn't really know him and they both say oh we wish we had known him better uh she acknowledges catalan acknowledges the distance from winterfell to river run was

always great you know and so of course they might not have always had time to get to know him but then she thinks of the silence from liza and and from king's landing too too. She hopes Brienne was successful, and Ser Cleos keeps his promises as well. Bad news. He's dead. He's dead! That's actually kind of sad. Poor cat. It's all over. But the crying.

And Cleos. Poor Cleos. Poor Cleos. He's dead. Men gather to give Robb condolences, but Cat draws his attention over to Lothar Frey. Lothar asks for audience from the king. There's agreement and pleasantries, and perhaps forgiveness, as Lothar says Walder understands, having been young and lusting for beauty before. But Cat doubts Walder Frey ever felt that way, having outlived seven wives. Now he's on his eight, and she knows he speaks of all of them terribly. After Lothar withdraws with a kiss

to Jane's hand, Rob speaks with more of his bannermen, his people, and then asks to speak with Kat on a walk. She agrees to a command until he corrects her that it's not a command. She's like, you know, whatever, sure, anyway. Since returning, Rob has been kind, but he doesn't really seek her out, which I think is, I mean, that's typical teenage stuff, right?

Beyond everything else. Catelyn thinks that Jane at least does make him smile, and so do the other Westerlings. Then she realizes, huh, Rob has replaced his lost brothers with them. Rallum, his squire, is kind of like Bran. And then Reynold, his standard bearer, is something like Theon and Jon to him. And she notes that only with them does he smile,

while with all the others, he's the king of the north. All that weight, even without the crown on. Man, the actual quote is so depressing. Like, when she realizes it, just they're standing in the boots of those he lost and she also thinks like only with them does she see him like the boy that he once was very sad very sad it started making me think about all the times the starks think of

each other in this story right i won't tell you all of them because they're sad spoiler there's the one from sansa where she thinks that willis could come to love her if she just gave him children and that she could maybe bargain with that potential half love if she could name them after eddard and brandon and rickon and she thinks in Sansa's dreams, her children look just like the brothers she had lost. Sometimes there was even a girl who looked like Arya or Arya for that matter. She tries to wish away the North and it sounds and smells as she throws her sword away, but she knows it symbolizes her family and hope and rebuilding and Bran and

clash. There's such a sad line where Bran wishes he could be a wolf and find and protect Arya and Sansa and save them and join Robb in battle and tear out the throat of the Kingslayer if only he could be a wolf he says ahoo

ahoo yeah it is really sad and it kind of yeah it makes me think speaking of other people who are sad, that's kind of what Ned did, right? I mean, in naming his children Robb, and then Bran, and Rickon, in honor of his dead family members. But also, you brought up Sansa and her thinking of a marriage to Willis and how perhaps she could buy his love in that way. And then she also comes to a realization soon that she will only ever be loved for her claim. And Rob is also in a similarly, I think, difficult position, though he doesn't realize it yet. And I think you've called this out in previous chapters.

And Catelyn actually also points it out to him when she's like, I don't know if I like you being around people that your wolf doesn't like, but Rob has surrounded himself with his wife's family and not enough of his own men at the moment. Same as how Robert Baratheon did. Yes, yes. And not only is it, you know, surrounding himself with Westerlanders, just like Robert Baratheon did. But also, we haven't seen Grey Wind this entire chapter, nor last. Yeah, that's a great point. He should be with Rob all the time. All the time. All the time. Maybe, I mean, maybe Rob is fine because he knows where Grey Wind is, but it is interesting that he's not around. Because, I mean, yeah. Jane, I guess, doesn't like him around, which seems suspicious. Seems like a thing that Cersei would say.

I get that. No offense. I was afraid of dogs for a very long time. I got attacked by one when I was a kid. Maybe Jane got attacked by a dog. You don't know. It's possible. But it also reminds me of Cersei being like, I don't want those wolves anywhere near any of us. Oh, yeah. That's true. Awful. We gotta fire her. Get rid of Cersei. Just kidding. I mean, Jane's, like, way nicer, but...

That's true. As far as we can tell. Well, Robb seems hopeful about the phrase, but Kat, again, expresses caution. Robb is solemn, and she thinks of the weight of the crown on him and how hard he tries. Rob is solemn and she thinks of the weight of the crown on him and how hard he tries someone comes in now and tells Rob the news of the defeat at Duskendale where Randall Tarly defeated

Robert Glover and started helming Talhart's forces and rather than the expected anger Rob reacts with like wait what why why the fuck were they at Duskendale by the sea well why were my forces at Duskendale by the sea?

Why were my forces at Duskendale by the sea? Because you're being betrayed? Maybe. He's just dumbfounded, right? He's not angry. He's just like, what the fuck is happening right now?

My thing is he doesn't explore that further. Like, until next chapter, he talks to Roose. That's a great point. And Roose is like, Roose is just like, hey, it's a-okay, buddy. I think he was just sad, and that's why he attacked. You know, sad men do crazy things. Yeah, he's just like, yeah, I just sent them to, you know, probably, I just sent them to Duskendale.

And it's like, what? Why did you do that? Because the orders came from Roose Boltonton right who just made them up making them up because yep rob is being betrayed but he's just like i i think in that moment he's probably just like so stunned everything's going to shit and then this is happening and he just can't even process it anymore he has no energy to be mad he's just like what yeah makes no sense it's bad it's it's a it's a total misstep like it's a very obvious wait a second what question mark uh had he just kept going had he thought harder had he investigated come on rob well i mean he doesn't

really have anyone to send you know to investigate so yeah because they keep dying or leaving him rob seems hopeful though right like about the phrase and their possible return as you mentioned and that's good that's that's hopeful that's hopeful like a red flower blooming you know that's called a red flag eliana not a red flower when all the flags are on fire they're red well galbert glover is afraid for his family especially his brother robert right he's the one being held by the ironborn but we saw him in davos chapters right so he's like he's kind of fine he's fine out later. But at this moment, he's a prisoner to the Lannisters.

Robb says, it's okay, I'm going to trade Martin Lannister for him, and that Tywin must accept for Kevin's sake, because it turns out Martin was the twin of that other Lannister that died in that very dramatic chapter where we have to behead Rickard Karstark, Willem. Robb is still haunted by these murders. And then later on as they're walking and in private, Rob tells Catlin, Mom, you were right. It's a hard thing to say from anyone, especially a teenager. I say this not as someone who's ever been on the receiving end of that, but as someone who has had to tell my parents, you were right. It sucks. Okay.

And he says that, yes, he should have traded Jaime for Sansa when Catelyn had first suggested it. And that had he done so, he could have wedded Sansa to Loras to take the Tyrells, which I'm like, true. Or he could have wedded Margaery or both. You know, these are options. I mean, Willis is still open. He is still open he is still open that's true it didn't have to be Loras why did he think I mean I guess he doesn't no one thinks of Willis that's uh but you're right Willis is a better would have been a better match for them

I mean he's the heir so uh but I guess that's the thing that's something he's really disregarding and I think it shows that we'll see as we keep going they're disregarding the power of marriage and you know we saw it from alice ann yeah in fire and blood where she made all these marriages and held woman's court and also in fire and blood later with uh lady sam right who did that as well for the riverlands and the reach and all these war-torn places and that that really can save your ass yep or it can kill it if you don't follow it through as

the rest of this chapter we'll explore Kat though she's very nice and forgiving to her child right she makes excuses for him saying that you know it's okay Rob you were thinking of battles and kings can't think of everything like yeah but he's like they're supposed to listen to their advisors for that anyways but then after that comes that really iconic line that everyone loves the quote because it is good right where battles muttered rob as he led her out beneath the trees. I've won every battle, yet somehow I'm losing the war.

It's so sad. He thinks of all they've lost. Winterfell, Moat Cailin, Ned, Bran, Rickon, maybe Arya, now Hoster. Cat reassures him, though. Hoster was already dying. That one's not on you. Kings make mistakes, and your father would be proud. That one's not on you. Kings make mistakes, and your father would be proud. And in many ways, the reassurance that Ned would be proud is central to Robb's arc. And it's kind of something that Catelyn just says to comfort him. I'm sure that Ned is proud of his children, like, in general, all the time. He seems like a very loving father. But I do think Robb did kind of fail to follow Ned's example,

because I think that Ned would have followed the same course that Catelyn advised in regards to trading Jaime for Sansa. Because Ned doesn't take risks with his family. He's already suffered those losses before. He wouldn't do what Rob did. And I mean, obviously, Cat knew Ned very well. Very intimately even yeah and he keeps doing that thing rob that whole like saying very nice things and being nice to his mother and then following it up with bad news that's been one of his classic moves throughout catalan's pov i've noticed and then he turns on her too sometimes like very quickly yeah this, I don't know what it is. Is it teenagehood? Is it, I don't know. I don't know what it is. Grief.

Grief. Is he horny? I don't know. Oh my god. Hey, it could be that kind of book. I mean, I think we know it is that kind of book. It is that kind of book. Well, once more, Rob has bad news.

Cat's like, oh no, is it about Brienne and Jamie? But no, it's about Sansa. Which, to be honest, Cat thinking that, oh, is it about Brienne and Jamie, is actually the same as thinking it's news about Sansa. But anyway. Yeah. She fears her plan failed and that Sansa's dead in retaliation for Jaime's death. And she finally asks, what is it? But Robb says, no, she's just married to Tyrion Lannister. This news is kind of upsetting, right? Because Tyrion had promised to trade the Stark sisters for Jaime in front of the whole court. Catelyn's like, how could he go back on his word? Jamie in front of the whole court.

Catlin's like, how could he go back on his word? Yeah, how could he swear such a thing and then break it? And I'm like, oh yeah, who would do that? Who would go back on a vow that they made in front of a bunch of people? Real interesting. Real interesting. And I will say

Rob doesn't seem to ask the same question that I'm asking because he just says, he's the king slewer's brother, oath-breaking runs in their blood. Interesting. Yeah. No self-awareness from anyone here at all. It's really funny because Rob is more independent than Tyrion and Joffrey combined, right? They have Tywin to boss them around, so this is a good one because it's a full Tywin move.

This isn't him rob expresses a desire to behead tyrian to widow sansa and cat's like i regret not letting liza kill him she wonders how they could do this well we know for her claim should you know anything happen to rob and cat quickly rebuts nothing will happen to Rob and that if anything befell you I would go mad Rob you are all I have left you are all the north has left I would go mad Rob wow what does it mean what does it mean but I do think it's sad to see all of this in this moment because Katlyn is now I mean, she's kind of giving up on the rest of her family. Obviously, she thinks that some of them are dead, but this means she's now too afraid

to hope for Sansa's safety and never being reunited with her, too afraid to hope for Arya. And that makes sense, right? After everything she's weathered, how can she even find hope again, right? Where is that red blooming flower she's already turning her heart to stone here and to keep it from hurting you know if she dares to hope and then those hopes are dashed because besides those parts of her family she's lost her father just now and her brother is just too far away from her emotionally to be part of what she has left and and her sister

right her sister is far from her both emotionally and physically so she just puts it all on rob it's rough had rob realized like it turns out having like a young virgin to sell off in westeros is big money right maybe he would have tried harder for that that trade and there's almost something feeling very poignant in this chapter as we get through Edmure's shock is being treated kind of like Cattle for his own king and Catelyn's calmness at that treatment because these are totally the roles as children in Westeros they were taught to play and now they've been put completely out of their element their dad's dead Catelyn her worth isn't being defined

now by her child birthing skill and edmure it's no longer an open book test edmure it's time you're lord now yeah though they could be they could be arranging marriages for catelyn wanted she's she's not old but older slutty hottie i mean she's not slutty but she's not a virgin she's just old she's an older experienced hottie now i mean clearly fertile this is not according to the words of the people of our discord first of all eliana they would be all about talking about her slutty milf titties or something to that uh you know who you are people who have said that yes so yes she's an older slutty hottie and she could she is and i i think like and it is brought up towards the end of this chapter she's also totally marriageable i mean like if anything happens to Edmure, right? I mean, who's next in line? Her. So it's not a bad deal. And they just aren't really thinking about that right now.

Because I guess they're like, she's not that great of a deal. But she is she's proven fertile. She thought she could have another kid, though. I don't know. Anyway, Rob reassures her that he is not dead yet. But Catelyn still feels that dread now and reminds Rob that, you know, wars don't need to be fought until everyone dies, and she again brings up the prospect of bending the knee and reminds him there is no shame in it, same as how there is no shame in missing the boat. She reminds Rob that, you know, Balon Greyjoy did it after the rebellion and Torrin Stark did it but then rob reminds her well agan never killed torin's father and i'm like yeah but like that stark did kill

bail and sons anyway yeah so caitlin realizes with this sort of reply that rob is playing the boy now not the king and she reminds reminds him, you know, the Lannisters don't need the North. What they need are hostages and homages. Sansa is their hostage no matter what now. And that the Iron Men will be a much more placable enemy in their eyes. They'll kill all of House Stark to keep their claim valid. Now all they need is robin jane there's this line she adds to all of this and she says do you think lord balin can afford to let her live to bear you heirs which is a very cutting and cold right that that's mean it's true but it is mean uh and we see that happen at the red wedding obviously and it's interesting that

earlier rob brings up agan and tauren right and that agan didn't kill tauren's father but there is something that's kind of similar about their situations that tauren kneels instead of letting his crown fall to his next of kin so a little opposite of Rob. He buries off his daughters and kin to please the Targaryens and sow peace. But interestingly enough, Torrin's next of kin is his half brother, his bastard brother, Brandon Snow. Right? So Torrin kneels instead of, you know, letting someone else carry on the battle. Rob does the opposite of that. He lets his enemy keep his sisters and plans to legitimize and name John as his heir instead of kneeling. and your honor isn't worth more than people staying alive right and that'll come up later in this chapter then people staying alive or like your sister staying alive as has been hammered home often and torin stark realizes that he puts the pride of the north and his own personal pride lets himself take on that legacy now the songs will always know him as we can tell as the king who knelt and it's meant to be shameful as well as despite actually i think being a good thing it does seem shameful and that's why as you said right he marries off

his daughter and lets his daughter who's married off to the enemies, still be the heir, as opposed to letting it go to his next of kin, whereas Rob does the other, just in case, in terms of that pride. And there's especially, I mean, there really is something to say about the theme of bastard restarting and how this is kind of, you know, this might be some of Rob's thinking already starting here. Deep down, he's like, all right, Jon is my only hope. And there's also something in that how Jon is going to embrace ruling the North, even if it's just for a small period of time. In the way that Torrin did, right?

That Torrin would rather make bargains to protect his family and keep them close to him. Which Jon is probably going to have that connection tested, right? His Stark family connection and how he feels close to the remaining Starks when it comes time, and the North and what to do with it. Absolutely. And that's a great point, because we see Jon already making similar decisions for the Wall, right? And because the wall isn't about pride, it's not supposed to be. That's the whole point.

Well, Rob doesn't appreciate Cat's kind of threat almost here. And not threat, as we said, it's just merely an observation of what will probably happen to Jane if they kill Rob. And he coldly retaliates saying, oh, is that why you freed the Kingslayer? To make peace with our enemies that are going to kill Jane? She reminds him, no, I freed Jamie for my daughter's sake, but if I brokered any peace, would that have been so bad?

Robb says it would. They killed his father. She asks if he thinks she's forgotten that, and Robb's like, well, yeah, a little bit, mom. Kind of seems like it. Cat remembers how frightened and alone Rob is feeling, which is what keeps her from wanting to strike him as something that she had never done to her children. She calls him King in the North and says the choice is his, and she only asks he think on what she says. The singers make much of kings who die valiantly in battle but your life is worth more than a song to me at least who gave it to you damn remember where you came from rob this is so disrespectful i'm i'm i guess he's a king but i would never get away

speaking like this to my parents at his age yeah i think i would have gotten smacked he's lucky i would have gotten smacked a little bit in the face oh yeah definitely wouldn't have gone very well for me i don't think uh anyway not not that i'm saying catlin should have but i'm saying that's what happened to me yeah don't be like our family cats facts and yeah it's funny that he throws that back. And I'm like, Rob, you literally said the opposite thing a few moments ago. Teenagers. And, you know, this line, though, Tyrells and all those what-ifs that are happening in this chapter, this line is just such a great callback to Catelyn's conversations with Brienne and some of the other men over at Renly's Feast back when she was in the Stormlands. Brienne says that though they may die in battle, the songs will remember them. But I love that finally Cat makes a rebuttal to that argument aloud in her own words.

And I mean, the first caveat, though, is Rob technically does not die in battle. But the point is, the point anyway, is your life is worth more than a song, right? Like the songs and the stories aren't real. Like the stories might outlive us, but the stories are the same as honor, right? What is honor? What are the stories against a brother's smile or being in the arms of a woman you love or your family alive and whole? And so what good is a song that continues when you die, right? Yeah, it's a sort of second life, but you know, in the context of Lady Stoneheart, who has a second life as well, like, I mean, it's a thought. And what you do with that second life, right, for those that get one, like Stoneheart versus whatever John will do with his that we presume he will get since the show did it first. And because again, these books are based on the show. My god. And I will add, i know that i'm getting you on a train of reading some certain books and there is a book that i reread recently the song of achilles

by madeline miller that of course uh achilles and his mom thetis they're so concerned about how his glory rings right about him attaining and achieving legendary immortality amongst the different gods and becoming something so big and that what he dies for and how his prophecy comes true and his honor must all be intact and his legacy must all be intact and cat makes a really good point here of like what does it matter what does your legacy matter when no one's around to see it rob when your family is gone your home is gone so where your legacy bitch yeah in the words of eliza hamilton i was actually thinking of that i was like now that i finally seen this thing that chloe has wanted me to watch for so long i'm like who lives who dies who chose this story it is that it is that though yeah well catelyn is not going to suffer any more of her

son's insults and she asked for his leave to go and she turns while rob then alone draws his sword amongst the tall trees and the fallen leaves and i think this is also something that is a great callback especially to book one with with this action and moment because you know calvin's like why the fuck did rob draw his sword just then like there's no one there to fight he's alone and so i think this scene actually shows us two things going on right in terms of that callback with the way that rob has just immaturely lashed out at his mother especially backtracking that whole thing in regards to releasing jamie one moment ago he's like yeah mom you were right i really should have traded him for sansa and aria a long time ago it shows us that rob is very much yeah still a child

playing at glory and hoping to live on in songs and putting again pride above what really matters because bearing live steel is exactly what got him scolded by roger cassell in book one and i think that this is meant to call back to that a little because we're gonna get roger cassell a reminder of him in such in a moment um and his legacy which apparently apparently his memory meant nothing to rob i guess because he has forgotten he has forgotten that just now and yeah is acting the child that roger cassell said is that what you are but at the same time i think the scene is also showing us something else that maybe there are enemies in this room and cat doesn't see it but rob does but he rob doesn't see it but Rob does but Rob doesn't see it either but we the readers do because it's reread it's himself right because who truly backed Rob into this corner who is the reason that Rob has lost his home who made the decision to not trade Jamie in the first place and who was it

that made a vow then broke it losing his allies right who is the one who sent the angry joy away and who didn't give clear commands to his vassals regarding military strategy and i think i i don't want to put like obviously not everything is rob's fault right like obviously theon has agency as well right made those decisions too so did ruse bolton like just fucking shit up and all those other things but a lot of the problems is that rob has just made too many risky moves in terms of what's going on and what he thinks that adults and honor are supposed to be like he's followed his heart especially when it comes to like i guess theon and also let pride lead him when it comes to these things and also with jane and after too many risky moves all these gambles he's left himself with no moves left and also no leverage against like anyone

it is hard because he's backed himself into his own corner and now he's fighting himself he's just warring against himself now that all of his allies have left and there's this line from catalan there are fights no sword can win she wanted to tell him but she feared the king was deaf to such words versus that against you know tywin's some battles are won with swords and spears it's happening she knows they all know what's happening in the background the ravens that are flying right now across westeros and something you said of rob you know he he does have a lot going on he is a kid trying to do all this and there is something interesting in stoneheart not really having her memory as much anymore or a way to access her memories as she comes back as a zombie versus Rob here as he gains power slash loses power. Also, he seems to like his memories seem to streamline and collapse.

Right. And things that are more emotional become less important to him as other things take priority. less important to him as other things take priority if that makes sense and it's almost like something really parallel to how Stoneheart isn't her whole self anymore and Rob isn't either he doesn't have full capacity to be king right now

he doesn't he's also suffered a lot of loss right and he doesn't talk about much so clearly clearly that's going somewhere, and that's probably just weighing on him inwardly. Yeah. Well.

Hours later, Catelyn sews in her bedchamber before she's summoned to supper by Rob through Rollum. She pays him a compliment, says that he's a dutiful squire, and also thinks that Bran would have been the same. Rob and Edmure are cold and surly at the table, but lame Lothar is warm, he's courteous, he's offering cat condolences and memories for Hoster and her sons.

He's praising Edmure for his victory at the stone mill, and also thanks Rob for his justice in rickard's death but his brother walder rivers is different he is harsh but devoted to his meal i'm so glad to finally get here i love them yes i love their dynamic the scene is so intriguing it's very like you know chris trager and ben from parks and rec how they play good cop bad cop right. Yes. Right? You know, Ben is all like, oh, you guys are so cool. Or Chris is all, oh, you guys are great. And then the other will shut it down. One's a dick, one's a charmer. Love that dynamic for them.

And, you know, there's something Emmett over at Nauticast has talked about, which is Lothar and Big Walder and kind of their relationship as a nephew and uncle. And it's very obvious that Lothar here is putting such an emphasis on his nephews throughout the entire conversation. Everything is kind of a veiled threat or volley from the phrase, right? Putting the Tullys and Starks in their place, reminding them what they're owed as lieges, as well as, you know, as lieges as well as, you know, you have my nephews and currently I'm here in your ward, you know, talking to you. So you have to listen to me and respect me. And not only do they make it clear they have control and leverage and power, but they also start showing us these little blips

of the plot, right? Showing us Winterfell's burning through them and them alone, through their voice and in their words, most importantly, controls kind of how the narrative is delivered. And it just feels like such a really significant display of power from them, especially considering Lothar and all of his charm. He is, you know, part of the secret force behind planning the Red Wedding. Yeah, I mean, he's, according to, you know, what's actually in some ways the final Catlin chapter that we have, which is actually Barrett Frey's epilogue. He's the mastermind behind a lot of it.

So that's a great call-out of how he's also using the nephews as veiled threats and just kind of shadowing everything. And like you said and pointed out, that the information is coming through them. They hold all the cards. They control everything. They control the way back. They control the flow of information.

And they control the armies. The manpower. Yeah. They're controlling this conversation because when most of the meal is cleared, Lothar clears his throat and brings up a crucial matter. Lord Walder had received a letter from his grandsons, fostered at Winterfell. He goes on, there has been a battle, and Winterfell is burned. The northern lords tried to retake it from Theon Greyjoy, who put the castle to the torch.

to retake it from theon grayjoy who put the castle to the torch this is a lie he was on the ground big walder wrote the letter though little walder apparently also co-signed it the castle in sir roderick had been slain and the iron men put many of the people to the sword and this kind of reminds me of like the letter from sansa where they're like so none of this was written by Sansa. All of this was dictated to her and made up. Yeah, this is I totally agree. I also think though, on top of that total Ramsey pink letter vibes. Like he wrote he had to write the letter. I didn't think about it. But like, they're getting all this info from someone somewhere. I mean, yes, maybe the phrase no, maybe they know, but also I'm like, because they're in cahoots, but I'm also just like, it doesn't matter. We don't see the letter. We're just told the letter exists. It could be made up. Well, and there you have it, like Tywin said, and like Kat said about the different types of battles. Yes, great point, great point.

And they are losing this battle here. They're like, this is not a battle, this is a battle, alright? It's so sad. Rob slams his fist down in rage, and Kat thinks of Roderick's daughter, Beth, and Maester Luwin, and Septon Chael, and Micken at the forge, Farlin, Palla, Old Nan, Hodor. Her heart was sick same and yeah so here's that rage whereas before he's like what the fuck was everyone doing by the sea here's that anger that everyone was expecting and you know i kind of forgot i'm gonna confess that i kind of forgot the iron fleet no um that they didn't realize that winterfell had been sacked and burned until I'm going to confess that I kind of forgot. The Iron Fleet. No.

That they didn't realize that Winterfell had been sacked and burned until this moment. This is very much, you know, for them. But it was also for Theon when that happened at the end of A Clash of Kings. The King's Landing opening the gates of Tywin moment in a way. And then like Winterfell burning, right? They never bring up the rooms. They're never like, oh, God, I'm so sad aboutell burning, right? They never bring up the rooms. They're never like, oh God, I'm so sad about this tower, right? Because now they realize what it really means

when they dallied when Bran and Rickon were supposedly dead, right? Losing their home wasn't just about losing the castle. It's losing the people that they were supposed to protect. And when you don't do that, I mean, that's how you lose the war. You're no longer a king. Yeah. A king of what? You haven't protected your people or your home.

King of ashes. Or your family. Or your... Anyways, it's a bummer. I mean, he, yeah, he didn't really protect his sisters. Yeah. And in not doing so, again, that's another one of those moves that has made it more difficult for him because now that means i mean if he dies who gets winterfell that's another one of those moves and now someone has to work twice as hard to

fucking get it back after he's dead and they didn't even ask to do that god being a queen is so hard i mean well lothar goes on telling cadeline that the woman and children were hidden his nephews among them and the survivors ended up taken back to the dread fort by ruse bolton's bastard son of course everyone's like what? Ramsey Snow was a monster, a murderer, and a coward, and dead. Yes, I agree. It is indeed confusing. It is confusing.

Red flags. I don't know what to tell you about that. All I got was this PR memo, but my nephews claim that his bastards saved them so i believe them good boys good boys very good boys i believe that yeah and then rob suddenly asks what happened to theon but lother doesn't know his fate either and you know that is part of the mystery anyway until book five this this this question though does feel loaded, and I think

we'll discuss this more in our Rob episode, but it is worth noting that it says that Rob asked it suddenly, and that there aren't any other emotional descriptors attached to it. Because I think in this moment, Rob is conflicted, and we'll discuss this again more another time but i'm thinking at this moment when he asked it does he hope that theon is dead or does he hope that theon is is alive right like does he hope that the man he loved like a brother lived or does he hope to take vengeance himself on the man who killed his brothers i think there's a lot there's a lot in there in that question that's like such a perfect way to put how complex it is because i think it's all of them i do think it's all of them and i think there's a part of him that when it was said that he was like what about theon what what like

where was he uh and it's that gut reaction right you live with someone for so long that they're your brother i also think that part of him wants not to believe it right that theon would do such a thing uh that theon would do that to their family to him who he loved him and i do think part of that is also there that like for just a moment there was almost a piece of hope like wait this doesn't sound right what do you mean expelled are you sure what happened to him and i think it almost is a crack in the veneer of the story for just a moment i agree for them to not know what happened to the guy who allegedly burned all of winterfell uh yeah he's a pretty important character right in that moment he's an important character he's important to the political landscape, right? Because he's heir to the, well, they don't know that

Ash is heir, but in theory, heir to the Iron Islands. Yeah, heir to that giant bunch of rocks. Yeah. And beyond all that, I think also maybe he wants Theon alive, because then, you know, as you were saying, like, then he can ask Theon, why? Why did you do this?

It just answers. Could've, if he didn't die. Right, yeah. Like, same as how even Kat, right? Like, she confronts Jaime so that she can have answers and start a picture. Like, why? Why did you do this? Why did you throw my son out the window? For fucking fun.

Kind of. Literally fucking fun. Literally fucking fun. well the blackfish says they'll be sure to ask lord bolton and lothar offers to adjourn the business for the evening as they're grieving and finish what they started tomorrow but rob says no he wants the matter settled now lothar finally has an answer to their offer, which I love how this is presented. It's kind of presented similar to how the terms were presented with King's Landing as well. Giving the terms, you know, in reverse, an answer to their offer.

Lord Walder will agree to the new marriage alliance between their houses, as well as renew fealty to the King in the North, on condition Rob apologize in royal person, face to face, for the insult to House Frey. Catelyn thinks an apology is a very small price to pay, and she does not like this first petty-ass condition being set by Walder Frey. yeah so for all the ways that catelyn has warned us that walder frey is prideful throughout this chapter i think that her being like all right i guess this is a good enough deal and not being suspicious of it is partially due to the way that she was raised and believes still in the hierarchy of west rose we spoke before about her putting her daughter's lives above all the people who have already died

for their cause, right? And that sort of unfairness, right? And not considering Rickard Karsark's pain too. But I don't think that this is just Catelyn's fault because all of the rest of these high lords and newly minted king,

right? They also think that this is par for the course, too. Right? Like, a lenient sort of, you know, forgiveness. And of course, like, why would they suspect something so terrible as the Red Wedding? They wouldn't. That was completely, like, beyond the pale. But

they're all, they're like, oh, yeah, it's a small price to pay, but of course Walder Frey wants back into our good graces, because we are the top dogs. Or wolves. So they're just kind of like, oh, naturally. And then we see Ednure for a moment, also thinking

that he gets to call the shots when they've broken this vow, and it's like, no, no, this is not how begging works. You might not know, this is how, this is not what it's like when you're on the losing side surprise you're losing yeah it is kind of like a hard thing to grasp for them it seems that like boys we're losing yeah

rob takes these terms and these conditions cautiously graciously he says i would love for you guys to resubscribe to us at patreon.com slash rob stark however i'm just saying i don't know what his tears would be but there'll be something uh he wants them at his side battle he says lothar offers edmure the hand of his 16 yearyear-old sister, Lady Roslyn, Walder's youngest daughter by Bethany Rosby. There's the Edmure's match by Hoster that he didn't realize, too, right? The Rosby girl. He calls

her nature gentle, and she's gifted in music. Edmure starts to ask if he can meet her first, and Walder Rivers is like, abso-fucking-lutely not. You can meet her when they wed. She has tons of teeth teeth you either accept her now or the offer is withdrawn lothar agrees it's walder's wish that the marriage take place at once brindan asks if walder's forgotten they're you know fighting a war and lothar says yeah exactly this is why they need to get married men die in war even men that are young and strong

red flags should edmure die their alliance may lose strength and walter's old and not like to see the war end should he not see his dear roslyn safely wed his dear roslyn whom he cares about so much yes Yes, his dear looks-at-smudge name on hand. Rhonda? Randa? Miranda Royce? Whichever fucker you are. Yeah, he can't even keep his kids straight. But anyway, we said this last time, but this is the same calculus Hoster had.

He's like, yeah, I think people should get married now, right? That's why he only gave the Riverlands forces after he had a double wedding, which turns out that was the smart thing to do. I mean, again, not to get on the Walder defense club all of a sudden, but it's been a few chapters. It's been since last book, but he has points. Yeah. I mean, if they're so offended that Tyrrian broke this thing in the middle of a war but yeah in the middle of a war after you know

them not really giving tyrian anything right yet the phrase have given them all these forces and they're like wow oh the breaking blood i'm like interesting anyway cat thinks we all want lord walder to die happy but she's obviously growing less comfortable with these terms as she listens now she's starting to be like this this seems weird even though i'm used to like people pandering us this this seems sus and so she offers to lother that ednir needs time to mourn their father. And Lothar says, you know what, Rosalind's a cheerful girl. She might be just what he needs. Perfect comfort in these times. And besides, Walder River comments that Walder Frey no longer likes lengthy betrothals for the things that we just said.

And then Rob gives him a chilly look and says, like, he gets it, Rivers. Yeah, there is an emphasis on rivers and that isn't there on him being a bastard and i know earlier edmure had said you know the lame one and the bastard come to us though i'm sitting here like maybe that's not the best thing to make fun of like you literally have a lame one and a bastard in your immediate family there with cat and rob yeah i agree it feels super unnecessary for him to do that right like i took him rivers after the insult of everything and because again it's kind of like his fault because he decided that he wanted to

get wet instead of not having a bastard so it just seems really unnecessary you could have called him sir walter yeah considering the circumstances especially like it's an obvious move of disrespect because we know he doesn't give a shit about bastards in that way or at least sorry he at least sees john is different than every other bastard in the world he's not like other bastards chloe john isn't like other bastards eliana uh but truly though between him and edmure they need need to chill out. Edmure and Rob both are just kind of lashing out during this. And Rob, look, is a little, I mean, go off, king. You know what I mean? Like, you are the king. You still, you're definitely being

disrespected in your home. But you're going off about these little tiny petty things like that, that it's like, that's not gonna get you anywhere with these people rob and edmere edmere is about to go off and piss me off and he needs to chill out because he's like my baby boy and i will defend him right through thick and thin but he's actually for the first time here getting a taste of what it's like to have his autonomy taken from him right in this manner he's never had to understand before that a marriage could literally harm his life or harm other lives like catalan and liza have quite obviously understood they've lived it he just doesn't really get what the stakes are and he quite obviously doesn't understand that this entire dinner has not been like a dinner out with the frays but has actually been not very thinly veiled threats for an hour uh and it does remind me kind of of

when they first arrived and the north men were being really snide to the frays and it's like edmure doesn't understand that they're losing you don't get to be cocky and kingly and an asshole when you're losing the war and you're begging for mercy politically and snagging them i agree and i think this is maybe part of like why the chapter is sort of framing him as like a a bit of a putz right and failing to do like the leaderly thing which is that he wouldn't question this because when the time came for it when his father died and they were at risk of maybe losing the war ned stark didn't ask like do i get to choose my wife right ned stark was like all right okay i guess i'm gonna marry uh this girl who was really into my older brother now

and and that was the same for i i mean i guess he got a good deal out of it that was the same for john aaron and also robert robert baratheon especially too he was like the woman that he wanted to wed she had died and so he ended up with circe and i mean like obviously that ended up being a terrible marriage for both of them but I mean like yeah so Edmure the fact that Edmure is like demanding that sort of choice

here it's kind of remarkable again because so many of the people like and they're kind of his generation too right Edmure's in the sort of like in between right he was alive during the last big war but not really like an adult didn't really fight in it so he's seen as younger and he's not living up to the legacy of the people who uh had to make those tough calls the last time

around when their asses were on the line and they were the lord paramounts of their respective regions it's sad because again just like we talked about with Theon, that it becomes like a punishment that doesn't fit the crime for Edmure, how he ends up captured and the only one alive to look around at this ruin, you know, stuck with the enemy. And that is sad. It's a sad thing for him because he is young and full of hope and kind of lost and directionless at his father dying and at his world changing.

You know, he didn't ask for his sister to make babies with Ned Stark who got killed. You know what I mean? He didn't ask for this. He just wanted to get drunk with Mark Piper and Karl Vance, you know, and I get that. I do. But also he needs to start doing his duty and that is apparent and he's going to whether he likes it or not yeah absolutely they take their leave from this dinner lame lothar and his bastard uh helping him hobble from the room and i'm definitely struck by how lame lothar reminds me a little bit of larry's clubfoot

yes during the dance yeah i never really thought too hard on it but now that we've come back to him if you don't remember larry's clubfoot or need a refresh he was master of whisperers uh during agan 2's very fleeting reign in king's landing he was the Lord of Harrenhal and one of the strongs, and he was clubfooted from birth. He had very fleeing loyalties. It was very noticeable that he had these, and he could be totally charismatic one minute, but a hard-ass Lord confessor the next. So who knows? I don't know. Lord Lothar really gives that kind of feeling, especially with his foot. And there is kind of that idea that Prince Aemond believed Larius was aiding Rhaenyra in the capital's fall in the campaign in the Riverlands.

And Aegon's brother had every member of House Strong at Harrenhal killed. So maybe some Frey vibes somewhere in there, right? Very interesting. And there are some similar vibes there to Larius Clubfoot. And I kind of think that maybe, you know, like he is there, right? Very interesting. And there are some similar vibes there to Larry's clubfoot. And I kind of think that maybe, you know, like he is inspired, right? Like he's the Lothar is the blueprint for all that. But I do want to give a shout out to our friend Matt slash Joe Magician, who put out a really interesting theory recently that Larry's clubfoot wasn't born with his clubfoot and that perhaps part of

you know why he joined the factions that he did is he was very against his older brother maybe that harbin strong break bones had broken his bones or something once before so i thought that was interesting that's an interesting take yeah but back to this this person here lothar he is as you said earlier doing a great job of just manipulating the storks and the tullies into agreeing to this marriage through guilt and like pressing like the whole like oh you're kind of short on time card and like trying to get rob to come back to the twins it's a small concession and then also like you said controlling the information with this letter from Winterfell, allegedly,

that, again, we never actually see, for what it's worth. Though, I mean, yeah, Lothar could have collaborated with the two Walders anyway, but you know, it's all you said, right? The good cop, bad cop thing, and, I mean, he's just playing this masterfully. You know, not only did he mastermind and orchestrate

the whole thing thing here he is executing the plan wow great job congratulations luther fray it's so frustrating too because it's like it's so obvious that he's so charismatic and polite and he's being so courteous and cat's like let's just get this over with and deal with him and yet it was him fucker yeah you sat and ate my bread and mead and salt and then you a salted me and it was not cool a salted in a swath okay once they're gone admir lets loose he complains about how this is so unfair having to marry someone you don't have any choice over and catalan's like catalan's like well we've wounded walter's pride and it is what it is you're gonna have to and edmure refuses to be shamed in his own hall you know that he just inherited like

12 hours ago chill out edmure rob gives him a weary look and he's like i will not command you but if you refuse it will be a further slight and nothing will be forgiven and we will all die and lose and edmure's like he goes on he's like i'm god's gift to fray woman and walder has always wanted my totally ass to get married to someone in his family and this is his big moment we're gonna wait him out and Brendan's like as fun as that is and I would never tell anyone to get married against their will or ever we really can't wait on this one we can't like wear Walder down over time on this one and Rob's like I have to go home where my kingdom is burning and bleeding I can't sit and wait for

a wedding that may or may not happen. And Catelyn adds, oh no, it has to happen with the wedding. Yeah, Rob's cause is lost without that wedding. We will be accepting this. Edmure says, interesting that you're accepting this for me because I don't see you offering to be the ninth Lady Frey. And she reminds him, well, the eighth Lady Frey is alive and well. Elsewise, I might have been number nine, she thinks. The Blackfish turns to him, reminding him, you did wish to make amends for your folly at the Battle of the Fords. I do think Catelyn would have done it, though. She would have become number nine. And I also am like, you know, if it's so important, why doesn't Brynden also offer to marry someone as well? Which I'm sure that's a question people have brought up before.

It's also telling that Edmure takes it out on Cat, saying, well, Cat, why don't you offer to marry someone and doesn't take it out on Brynden? And I will say, you know, talking about the stuff that Roose Bolton has done, these strange orders that he gave to Tollard and Glover. And as you were saying and pointing out, he's quite lenient on Roose. Why doesn't he come down as hard on Roose as he does on Edmure? Because he comes down on Edmure for having not followed, I guess, the orders exactly to the word, but he doesn't come down on Roose for, like, why did you fucking send people to the sea? Why did you send them to goddamn Duskendale?

Yeah, but, you know, Roose does talk him, like, down from it. That's the thing, like, in the next chapter with Lady Gwynn, we'll definitely look at it again, but he does kind of talk him down a little, you know, he's like, oh, well, you know how men are, when they're passionate and they make mistakes and they're sad and rob's like oh is this one another one of those digs at me

yeah so anyway everyone everyone is being shitty to everyone else right now is all i'm saying and things are hard when you're losing the war. Lots of passive aggression going on in this camp. And full-out aggression. Like frontal. In grief, yeah. Full frontal aggression and grief. There's a lot of feelings amongst everyone right now. None of them positive.

Well, to be fair, though, Enmir has a great sense of humor at the end of the chapter because he has nothing else left. This end passage is so funny. He says, I had in mind a different sort of amends single combat with the kingslayer seven years of penance as a begging brother swimming with the sunset sea with my legs tied when he saw no one was smiling he threw up his hands

the others take you all very well i'll wed the wench as amends. Well, you might get that wish there. The others might just take them all, Edmure. Yep. Or someone else. Or worse, expelled. Oh my god. Bummer that they all die except Edmure and Brynden, I guess. He's still there, kind of. He fished.

He swam. He swam. I think it's yeah something's gonna happen something's gonna happen from that yeah he's gonna die too though i mean we all die eventually yeah everyone dies i don't know i think like his death i think his death will be fitting for him you know but i do think it will happen. Out with the old, in with the babs. I wonder if he'll get a burial. I hope he gets a boat burial. I hope they tully his ass. He might not.

Maybe, I don't know, maybe, maybe Arya pulls him out of the water too. You don't know. That's true. Or maybe he gets to, you know, the Blackfish becomes one of the fishes. Who knows? I kind of wonder now how we'll get that death. It'll probably be a Jaime chapter. Oh, that would be interesting.

Or an Arya. But Jaime would be great, like, because, you know, that was his childhood hero. Yeah, absolutely. I don't know. I don't know on that one. I'm going to think on that one. Could even be, like, yeah, it could be a Sansa chapter or, I mean, could be a sansa chapter or i mean it could be a theon chapter right or a john it could be a john chapter because as we know cat has talked shit about john to brendan so it'd be

interesting to watch them interact yeah i'm just thinking location wise who we'll see next in the area you know and it's like brienne jamie aria are the big contenders. Anyone can be anywhere. With the magical traveling POV. I mean, yeah. I mean, we're about to get dragons, so cut those travels to like four-hour trips across the states, you know? Well, I mean, people traveled a lot, right, in those first two books.

Again, Catelyn traversed basically the entire fucking continent, like the entire nation in the first two books. Yeah, she went everywhere. And I do think the Clash of Kings Reach stuff was very interesting to see her all of a sudden. Boom, she's there. Boom, she's back. Yeah. Obviously, he doesn't measure like that, and that's not how you're supposed to be reading.

Not with your measuring tape out to understand the mile markers on the map. But interesting. Interesting the wheels keep moving. Well, I think that wraps us up for Catelyn IV in A Storm of Swords. We're so excited for next week when we'll be back with Catelyn V in A Storm of Swords with the wonderful Lady Gwyn of Radi of Westeros. Yes. So, be sure to tune in for that. But perhaps you have something that you would like to say to us.

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Goodbye. Bye. Till next week when we're sad again. Yeah, we'll just be sad this whole week. This whole week. Goodbye.