Girls Gone Canon Cast - ASOIAF Episode 155 — ASOS Samwell V featuring James Buschell

Episode Date: March 4, 2022

'Jon said there could be honor in a lie, if it were told for the right reason,' Sam remembers, just before he lies and accidentally puts his best friend on a career track to death. James Buschell of The Hype's Watch joins us to break down Sam's progress, Night's Watch politics, and Stannis's development as Sam gets a taste of the game of thrones.  Where to find James:  James's Twitter — https://twitter.com/Jbusch55  The Hype's Watch on YouTube — https://www.youtube.com/c/hypewatch James Buschell on YouTube — https://www.youtube.com/c/JamesBuschell  --- Eliana's twitter: https://twitter.com/arhythmetric Eliana's reddit account: https://www.reddit.com/user/glass_table_girl Eliana's blog: https://themanyfacedblog.wordpress.com/ Chloe's twitter: https://twitter.com/liesandarbor Chloe's blog: www.liesandarborgold.com Intro by Anton Langhage

Hello and welcome to Girls Gone Canon, it's the Song of Ice and Fire, episode 155, A Storm of Swords, Sam 5, featuring James. I'm one of your hosts, Chloe. And I am another one of your hosts, Eliana. And this week we are joined by another other one of your hosts. You might know James from the Hypeswatch, swatch hype swatch fame over on youtube and we had a great conversation about how we're you know our past as stanis fans for some people they've left that dark dark horrible world but some people have just mellowed on it but james is a part of the hype swatch and i know eliana used to hang out with the hype swatch and chat with them on aswath here and there i only got to hang out with the Hypes Watch and chat with them on Aeswaf here and there.

I only got to hang out with you guys once for an Ice and Fire Con YouTube stream. Yeah, well, you know, it's been a while, but I'm very happy to be here and talking about this wonderful chapter. And you never know, hopefully, maybe one day the Hypes Watch will be back again, ready to roll, when T-Wow comes out. But yes, I'm... Oh my god, yes very yeah we dragged james out of hiatus i have uh it's been a long night over here and in kansas and i've just been uh sitting back and living my life you guys you know like the old the godfather three thing you know just when i thought i was out you pulled me back in and uh you know it was it's actually been pretty fun going back and reliving it and uh going back through I read all of Sam's chapters love that guy

it was good to relive that and sort of you know I was even finding myself not even when I was you know I'd get done with the Sam chapter I read some of the chapters around it kind of re-sparked rekindled my love oh no oh no I thought you were gonna say it was kind of re-sparked rekindled my love oh no I thought you were going to say it was kind of nice not thinking about a song of ice and fire at all it was but you know sometimes you just get pulled back

that's true hopefully he doesn't die at the end of this job oh my god that's the trope we aren't going to let that happen listen k k i need to just turn away go back to the house go back to the kids eliana no i'm just kidding i'm glad to have you on because you're a huge sam fan you know we really wanted to get the sam fans on for this pov because i know they exist and i don't know, what are your favorite things about Sam's POV

since you just reread his chapters? Well, one thing I'm a big fan of in the series in general is character growth. I think some of the characters we see it most with is Sansa, or Sansa, and Sam. And, you know, I just think people who would have a certain perspective on these characters when they first read those books, the people that read them pre-show, you would have a vastly different experience in the next book and in the next book and the next book. So me personally, I just love the growth of Sam that he goes through and finding what he had in him all along, which we'll see in this chapter and that we saw in some of his previous chapters in this particular book. You would probably have a specific mindset when it came to sam or sansa at the end of those books but you gotta

give him a chance you gotta let him you let it grow and you just end up with great characters absolutely well said and speaking of character growth you know chloe you hinted at this at the beginning of the episode. Can you both talk to me about your come to Jesus moments about Stannis? Very different moments, I think. Very different moments for both of us. And they're pivotal moments in every A Song of Ice and Fire fans' growth themselves. Everybody has a pivotal moment on Stannis, whether it turns you to the flames or against the flames i don't know what do you think i guess yeah james has always had like a more measured but yeah james you're very measured you you take the good and the

bad the rot with the onion so to speak stannis is obviously a very complicated character and i definitely don't subscribe to the thought that he is all that is pure and good i don't know if those thoughts still resonate in the fandom i remembered you know there was people that thought stannis was azor ahai and i'm just like no he's not that doesn't even make any narrative sense in the framework of the story like and people think that he is infallible which he is not he's done many bad things but yeah but at the same time if you think about his his history the growing up as the introverted middle brother that was sandwiched between the perfect robert well in his his mind perfect robert and the charismatic renly and sort of the stuff that happened in his past seeing his parents die

etc what happened in his wedding bed etc and the things i like about him is he does have a semblance of honor which we'll talk about in this in this chapter he doesn't like he's not a politician in the king's landing sense and i like the way that he speaks to people i don't like the the stuff he says to people he's an insufferable prick excuse my language necessarily if you were on the receiving end you'd be like what the yeah i don't it's just to me it's funny yeah the serbic nature the way he speaks to people it's like i wouldn't want to i don't like you and like i wouldn't like you in real life but i just find that the crap you say is pretty funny so oh yeah he's fucking hysterical like i think he's one of the funniest characters accidentally the entire time right just accidentally

hysterical and i love the tension in a room that's leveraged with him whether he's being mean or being funny on accident it's usually very similar i uh i used to love him i used to be one of those people that was like yeah stannis one true king bro you know like relore uh i used to be all about that but it all changed in john john chapters it it truly changed for me i think that like just watching his the way he operates and and the way he measures people as numbers but then it goes back to like you said he's not a politician in the king's landing sense but actually in a getting out there making the hard decisions especially in like wartime and things happening and in a sense of how he kind of puts laws and peoples together and groups them

and how he thinks he should govern or how places should be governed he thinks and i definitely think that in some regards he devolves his his compass his moral compass devolves throughout the series yes which we see in the previous john chapter right before this one, not right before, but the John chapter for this chapter, the stuff that he he wants John to do or what he wants to do. You know, he's willing to sort of work around his normally law driven framework to end up fulfilling this prophecy that has been bestowed upon him. Yes, I love that. The tragedy of it all, right? to end up fulfilling this prophecy that has been bestowed upon him. Yes. I love that. The tragedy of it all, right? Like, he's working against every moral code that he's ever set down

to prove that he's the one. And I get it, you know, like I said, he was the introverted middle child that no one really... He wasn't exactly loved, and this person puts him on this pedestal, and now he's this savior of the world so yeah give me intoxicating yeah power power can be and this chapter yeah exactly this chapter especially like with what you're saying james it really rings true that this is a part

on the course for his whole arc like the de-evolution of stannis because you have this is a part on the course for his whole arc, like the de-evolution of Stannis, because you have, this is the chapter deliberately showing us he's not actually Azor Ahai, right? Like this is where Maester Aemon, beloved, beloved man, tells the reader, oh, this guy doesn't seem like the real deal to me. And I find that fascinating. Like, we don't have the final books in case anyone's forgotten really in case you've forgotten at home we still don't have the final

books let alone the penultimate let alone the ultimate uh the final three books probably four seven eight but be that as it may uh since we don't have those books i i like to think of some of these characters that I don't know I think Stannis would probably piece out of the plot and T-Wow I think he'll meet his end just timing wise and pacing wise it seems like the right time to take him out at a climactic moment and keep the plot moving and grooving and make it all the reader for the better of it but I wonder this is his I mean we're in Storm and he's only in, what, two more books. Yeah, I definitely think T-Wow is where he's going to meet his end.

And maybe we'll get into it later. But I do have a potential theory on then how that's going to happen. Ooh. Ooh. Yeah. I'm interested. Yeah. Do you want to tell us now?

Does it fit in better later? Save it for later. It does fit in a little bit later. I'll throw it out. Perfect. I'll throw it out there.. I'll throw it out there. Build up to that climax. Yeah, yeah.

My God. Great. Well, let's build up to that climax, as Eliana said. You know, let's do a slow burn. So, James, we did say up top that people can find you on the Hypeswatch channel over on YouTube. Maybe you can also find James at a D&D game near you. But where else can people find you on the internet?

You can follow me on Twitter at jbush55. And that's Bush with a C-H. J-B-U-S-C-H 55. Correct. And that's really about it. I'm not too much else on the internet. James was born in the year 1950. No, I'm joking. He'd be older than my parents.

What's that supposed to mean? That he would be older than my parents if he was born in 1955. What if he was? What's wrong with that? This series is for everyone, Eliana. I don't think that James is. Perhaps I have a ruby of glamour oh my god james is actually born in i was wrong 1755 he's seen a lot i've seen i've seen some shit what james does in the shadows

you know like a vampire because he's old yes yes that was the i got it no i got it that's why i left i'm thankful that you're trying to you know meet me where i am well let's get ready to jump into it because i am itching i'm burning to hear this fever i've got a fever for more stannis theory but before we can get into our episode uh we got a little bit of housekeeping up top we just released a patreon episode last month february titled cersei the cersei pov by madeline miller because we read cersei by madeline miller and it was a total joy one of us loved it one of us liked it you're gonna come you're gonna find out who that was and who that was and it's great that's available for patrons over at patreon.com slash girls gone canon in the stranger tier and above and then let's say you are in the thunder tier and above over on patreon you get access to our discord where once

a month we have our brunch slash happy hour and that usually has some fun reindeer games giveaways get to know you-know-yous. Yeah, this month's brunch has not yet been announced, but we'll get that date out for patrons soon, so stay tuned for next week. You'll probably hear about it during the next Sam episode. And also, of course, all of the channels on Discord. There's a lot of talk about the Pokémon Legends Arceus game

when I can finally get my hands on a fucking ps4 i i said ps4 not ps5 i am very excited to finally start playing elden ring i want to play it too and when you do yeah you haven't waiting you could you could be playing right now i'm not gonna go without you are you playing i'm complete trash at souls likes games so i don't even want to try but maybe i'd give it a go i don't know if i'll be good at it i haven't really dabbled in the genre that much so i don't know if i'll be good at it but i'm pretty i'm pretty mild-mannered and i believe i even threw a controller at one point when i played uh bloodborne so i did throw a controller at one point then restarted my game when i accidentally

killed an npc um i rage quit that game and then started over and then did it all over again and again but i never like completed the game because i got stuck at one point but i hear the game gets easier after that point to catch it i got stuck at that point anyway i like it i i think i i just like you know punishment and that's why i'm covering this book series 11 years after the previous one was released so yes yes speaking of enjoying still with 10 to 11 povs to go uh speaking of enjoying punishment we also cover another book series yeah speaking of punishment you're right aliana we have major punishment in another series it's emotionally testing but complete to be fair the main trilogy is complete his dark materials we cover his dark

materials over at our pod bean stream which can be found pretty much on every platform. Make sure you're subscribed to one of them to get updates. But we are getting through the end of the Amber Spyglass, moving on to greener His Dark Materials pastures. And hey, weekly over at Discord, our patron Pete is running a discussion rewatch on the show. So they're rewatching the TV show for His Dark Materials. They're talking about it weekly. It's been a blast. They've had a really good time.

Absolutely. Be sure to check those out, but also check these out. We got an email slash tweet of note. Our friend Tourette of Tarth tweeted at us and said, was listening to Girls Gone Canon, John, a Clash of Kinks of cakes 2 slash 3 ha ha ha we combined an episode uh and i never realized before that sam cloaks gilly the moment they meet guys they are married that's so funny because last week in sam 4 wasn't it or no i'm sorry it was in sam 3 when our friend noah was on with us uh we talked about the cloaking being marriage.

And, you know, I would like to just take a moment and say I'm nothing, nothing without catching marriages happening through exchanging cloaks in this series, right? Like that is the basis of me assuming each character is married to one another. And for that, I would like to thank a few people, right? Like the Academy, lady gwynn from radio westeros truly i would not be here catching characters cloaking each other in marriage

accidentally in the plot without her sansa and sandor george rr martin my pisces moon i've just got a lot of thank yous to put out there truly for the way i am truly i won't change i don't think i don't know i say every episode also i'm different now so who knows you could be different i'm different but what if i'm not i'm different oh my god girl's going canon so and, we have our lightning round. Yes, our lightning round is actually really short this week. We got really lucky. We just have two chapters to look into between Sam 4 and Sam 5. That first chapter being John 11.

Stannis believes in the United States of Jon Snow, so much so that he would like him to accept an upper management position as the Lord of Winterfell with a stunning free folk wife. What will Jon choose? Tyrion XI. Across the United States of Jon Snow, Tyrion

is deeply betrayed by his loved ones and shoots a crossbow into his dad's gut while he shits one out. Normal stuff. And Sam 5 overview. With the new king at the wall and Castle Black alumni in tow, Election Day,

well, days, has become tense. Sam helps to resolve all that. And that brings us to Sam 5. We open with, the king was angry. Sam saw that at once. And so Stannis has gathered us all here today to complain that the choosing is taking too long and he just shoves away his breakfast which is

wasteful all right i would never do this it's hard bread salt beef and boiled eggs while sandra is also here she seems very interested with everything going on and a lot of the people here are like the night's watch leadership they're, you know, you've got Sam escorting Eamon to help him up the steps, but Sam doesn't feel that he should be here because like also the rest of everyone else are the contenders for Lord Commander. I love that Sam has kind of carved himself this, this status,

right? He's bought himself this tiny bit of status in the watch hiding between the lines. He's able to slip between in the Night's Watch because of what he's capable himself this tiny bit of status in the watch hiding between the lines he's able to slip between in the night's watch because of what he's capable of right i think jay or says early on that he has so many men that are muscly brawny disasters he doesn't need more of that he needs thinkers and leaders uh sam skills his writing his reading his ability to also be quiet and unseen uh some of the things that people probably regard him for

as cowardly traits or small traits oftentimes are kind of useful here. He actually kind of fits in in that, that he can get in with the room where it's happening. I find that dynamic interesting, and I'm excited to watch it grow at the Citadel, specifically, right right where he's then put with men who are very similar to him in some aspects but likely will have some hubris

right and so and we've seen a bit of that in that prologue of course what you're saying about you know being in the room when it happens i mean sam is making some of those rooms be that room in this chapter but it's funny because he starts the chapter off right with this like real big imposter syndrome thing going on here he's like why am i here and it's also interesting that the chapter opens with the framing of well i mean melisandre's here and i'm sure that everyone else is also like well why is she here right no one's really wondering about sam they're like yeah he works he works here but i doubt that she melisandre feels any uncertainty about her presence also i just want to give the side of sam going like don't look at me has always kind of reminded me of that like scene

where zoidberg is going like look at me look at me and then everything falls apart he goes don't look at me i feel that in my soul it's interesting when you when you brought up i just thought about it when you when you brought up uh the fact that he was a room full of meatheads i actually do think like that part of sam's character is kind of like a reprimand of like toxic masculinity because i mean i understand that we're looking at a regressive culture by our civilization by our standards but um obviously in that world why doesn't randall love sam because he's not a big brawny boy and he doesn't uh you know he sings to his sister and he doesn't value the things that sam brings to the table which he shows throughout this whole

series yeah but yet here he is contending with them those same men right that that sam's dad hated him so much for not being and here sam is able to contend and be in that room with him that's power yes sam sam doesn't even realize until the end of the chapter like at the end of the chapter he's like holy shit it's this easy to be a powerful man why didn't i try this like yesterday it must be a great drug coursing through his veins at the end of this chapter adrenaline adrenaline yeah the best of drugs there's this line you talked about melisandre and something i didn't really notice till honestly this read through she's staring at bowen marsh

and she's like staring majorly at him more than other people Sam notices. Bowen's the first stab for Jon. Do you think that she was maybe wondering of him, maybe seeing him in her past fires suddenly? Hmm, maybe. I don't know why I read that line wrong. I thought it was Melisandre being interested in maester amen and i was like oh yeah duh but now that you say bone marsh that is it is very strange that's a good catch and i think that's very plausible of course in her mind she probably saw stannis being stabbed like the back of his

head and thought it was him or something or maybe perhaps some of his machinations happening and that stannis is doing with the with the night's watch that maybe would put him in a negative favor with them maybe she saw something but yeah it's i didn't think about that that's good that's a that's a good observation and you know it's funny because we have what in dance you get the daggers in the dark warning right which kind of implies maybe she had been seeing it before and been piecing it together so i wonder if she's like been piecing that vision together and seeing that vision together for so long maybe she made out bow and marsh's face just lightly in her memory etched and went wait a second but we do also have in john 8 during the fighting uh there's this line where he says

the battle with the Magnar had been nothing the night felt less than nothing only a probe, a dagger in the dark to try and catch them unprepared so it does feel like I'm just looking for those hints of the daggers forming and you start to kind of see them here where, you know, politics are being

chosen for Jon the path is being laid Stannis makes everyone just like stay on their knees for a while including amen which is pretty rude until he finally tells everyone to rise and then when they do janice decides to kiss ass and stannis shuts that down this slays me uh janice starts off being like you've stopped the savages The singers are going to make songs of this, which goes to show you a couple things. Jano slant, deadass head empty, right? That's the first thing.

What the f- Why did you think that would work? Do you know- You should know this by now about Stannis. You should have at least heard of his repute. And it goes to show you the state of King's Landing and how people get things done in that court and the kind of machinations and the lying and bullshittery that goes on. Because if Janos' first reaction was to go to like, oh, my Lord, they're going to make so many songs of you, my great king, about you slaying these savages and besting them.

I find that very fascinating. Maybe Renly that would have worked on. Maybe Robert, because he really just so doesn't give a shit, right? He's that far over his entire throne and crown. But that doesn't work on Stannis. Jeno should know better. He was the commander of the Gold Cloaks. Stannis was the master of ships.

Stannis was going around with Jon Arryn before the start of Game of Thrones. So they were in the city at the same time. Surely he would know Stannis was going around with john aaron before the start of game of thrones so they were in the city at the same time surely he would know stannis by reputation uh if he didn't have interaction he would know by reputation that stannis they you know that ain't gonna work on him and i'm kind of surprised to know and it's funny you know janice i know it's about with george he does have a few characters that have like zero redeemable quality and janos slint is one of those like up there with like orge and ramsay yeah it's like yeah it's like a few characters that have like zero redeemable quality and janos slint is one of those yeah and it's also funny because it's like isn't this what landed you here you little rat didn't you just slightly a little bit try too hard for Tyrion, thinking you were already in, and Tyrion was like,

oh, you're in, in for the Night's Watch, you fucking sneak. It's just really funny because you look at Jano Slint's machinations in King's Landing and how they landed him here, and how then, you know, Jon's going to land him... Dead. Out of life, yeah, dead. How another king will land him dead. Out of life, yeah, dead. How another king will land him to death.

I say what you want about how much I don't love Stannis, right, okay? But you have to admit, he doesn't see the Free Folk as savages. That's such a very southern way of looking at things. Also

Janos, god God be more Southern. I don't know. There's something interesting because Stannis obviously in the last chapter just put great value on the free folk, right? By, by looking at them and all of their worldly assets and saying, I want those.

First of all, second of all, by saying, come live in my realm and you need to live in the North and we'll save you and you're going to fight for us and be our people and armies too. And then trying to marry Val to Jon. Obviously, Stannis doesn't see them that way and he sees some sort of value in them. And I don't know, I hate that we live in a society, right? And I hate that they live in a society.

I don't know. I hate that we live in a society, right? And I hate that they live in a society. But I also recognize you can't unravel hundreds of years of said society and its progression overnight. And politically, you have to start to kind of normalize things that need to be brought into your realm if you want to be a king. So while I don't agree that changing everything in the North or coming to the North and thinking he's going to make big changes is the best way to do it, I do think that him marrying them together, trying to bring the free folk into the realm and marry them to the North, who are also kind of more isolated of the countries that are attached here in Westeros, it's smart. Politically speaking, it's kind of what the North will represent, right? In the winds of winter and in a dream of spring of combining cultures and people uh the new gift right combining that north and south that break

between the neck with the water of the hammers in a way like we've talked about ice is forging the two swords uh the north is going to really need a lot of that to come together in regards to stannis of course there's the famous famous Donald Noy quote about his rigidity. But, you know, in some regards, he's actually can be pretty flexible. Like in this instance, he sees an opportunity here with the Wildlings to potentially bring him into his fealty. And then, of course, in dance, when he is going to march on the Nightfort, but he was able to be persuaded by Jon to take a different route. the night fort but he was able to be persuaded by john to take a different route so if he was truly just not fluid and brittle then he would not agree to that so he does have his moments but he also does have his moments of you know shit as well but yes yeah i think it's like i

guess it it's smart for him in terms of adding to his numbers i'm just mixed on it because of what we discussed in those john chapters i don't think that stannis necessarily sees them as savages but he definitely doesn't see them as culturally sophisticated or as equal to the same sort of personhood as the westerosi because again he is forcing them to convert he is trying to erase their culture and some while he is like trying to merge them in like his plan to marry val to john while we can see that stannis kind of means that is more of like a merging of two kingdoms sort of way and sees them as like a unified kingdom i think that is still like failing to recognize their culture which we were we are going to see stannis just does that because he fails to recognize the night's watch's culture in like a second but i i definitely don't think it's coming from some sort of altruistic

value of his it's it's merely uh it's a matter of convenience yeah and yeah and i will say i think my views were very strongly made on that at the time of the episode because people won't shut the fuck up about them all the time to me but um i think my views were strongly made at the time of the episode because people won't shut the fuck up about them all the time to me but um i think my views were strongly made at the time and i i will say that like this is pragmatic if he wants it to be you know it's a very legal way of tying up some knots and saying good my kingdom's good on to the next motherfucking thing i don't know there's such a big difference though like you're saying of like leading and ruling compared to like a good ruler and somebody who's just like ruling and i guess seeing stannis making these choices and then seeing john be set up to become lord commander by sam and like knowing why sam is doing it is because John makes maybe can make more fair choices than what we're seeing Stannis do.

Stannis is one of those people like great commander would have been a great admiral. But, you know, you kind of you should be capped there. Maybe you shouldn't go. Yeah. Also, he just doesn't know anything about the north, north you know so he's coming to the it really just makes me go what the fuck's danis because he comes to the north he's like i'm gonna play in this sandbox for my next feat since i've been kicked out of the rest of the sandboxes of west yeah he's kind of trying to learn more you know he listens to john and i think it's interesting

that you brought up the donald noy quote because of something that you said earlier before we started the episode and maybe we can come back to this later but a lot of people see and and you know this is something that I didn't see when I first started reading Stannis's character they see that he does bend he is more flexible than people give him credit for and then a lot of ways that that is good right like that is pragmatic you kind of need to have that sort of flexibility in order to change your plans but i thought it was interesting um that you brought up you know that that constant like bending and changing of his ways and also the spending of the rules will also end up being his undoing it's it's it's both good i know that

sounds i'm gonna make it sound really dumb and simplistic but it's both good and bad so i i thought that was really interesting that you brought up that's damn it as a negative yeah we might come back to that in a second because stannis is now here to complain about how long the choosing is taking and he needs a lord commander that would weigh in on captives the realm and the war now and janice is like of course of course encouraging stannis to weigh in and for obvious reasons this does not sit well with Pyke and Malister who have been at the watch longer because the choice belongs to the watch it is a tradition millennia old and like we said you know

Stannis isn't like great at picking picking up on this and also I think it's interesting that Janos seems willing to throw it out shows how little he's been here and his actually like failure to even try to assimilate to Night's Watch culture. Then we have Stannis calling Janos' bluff, saying like, As to royal guidance, Janos, if you mean that I ought to tell your brothers to choose you,

have the courage to say so. That took Lord Janos aback. He smiled uncertainly and began to sweat, but Bowen marsh behind him said who better to command the black cloaks than the man who once commanded the gold sire and it's funny because in the very next chapter bowen marsh is literally like up john snow's ass like oh yeah i'll be your steward hey he knows who butters his bread man he knows who lets him get the good sausages from the cellar and then he snaps him yep yep that too oh yeah

that's that's really getting you know getting in there with someone how better than with a knife like i said he got the sausage he was he was good he didn't need john anymore. And of course, Stannis' reply is legendary. Any of you, I would think. Even the cook. The look the king gave Slint was cold. Janos was hardly the first gold cloak to ever take a bribe, I grant you, but he may have been the first commander to fatten his purse by selling places and promotions. By the end,

he must have had half the officers in the City Watch paying him part of their wages. Isn't that so, Janos? Slynt's neck was purpling. Lies! All lies! A strong man makes enemies. Your grace knows that. They whisper lies behind your back. Not was ever proven that a man came forward.

Two men who were prepared to come forward died suddenly on their rounds. Stannis narrowed his eyes. Do not trifle with me, my lord. I saw the proof John Arryn laid before the small council. If I had been king, you would have lost more than your office, I promise you. But Robert shrugged away your little lapses. They all steal, I recall him saying. Better a thief we know than one we don't.

The next man might be worse. Lord Peter's words in my brother's mouth i'll warrant little finger had a nose for gold and i'm certain he arranged matters so the crown profited as much from your corruption as you did yourself and you know that's that's interesting that i'm thinking about the quote there about little finger of course it was probably about gold but also i imagine he planted that in robert's mind for other reasons just because he wanted to have an inept commander as the city guard absolutely but yeah to me this is like peak stannis in terms of his character not in his like actions that'd be

smashing the wildlings and john 10 but in terms of like why i have a soft spot for him because he's a character with many flaws which we've kind of touched on but he does have some semblance of honor and does not fall prey to smarmy machinations of trying to uh coax his ego uh to curry his favor to sway the other black brothers to vote for him to be lord commander like which i said before was really dumb in hindsight because he should know better and And I personally enjoy his quips and one-liners all throughout the series. Like, he just has such a acerbic personality that I find hilarious.

I do think his character will jump the shark in T-Wow. And he's definitely not the ultimate hero. Like I said before, I don't know if some... I don't know the Rabid Stannis fans. You can let me know if you still believe he's Azor Ahai. I don't think they listen to us. Oh, okay. Well, if there is

one that's listening, you can let me know if you still believe that this story, which definitely isn't about him, if he's going to be the alternate hero. Yeah. Damn, James. I still, I yeah damn i still i love the character i love the character but let's bring james on for every chapter that stanis is on i think we don't have many more i i have regrets we should have brought

james on for every single one of them um absolutely i agree and yeah he does have he does have a very dry wit and i he he's very quotable like. Again, I found myself changing in that I quote Stannis more nowadays. Like, the good can wash out the bad, nor the bad the good. And I'm like, who am I as a person who's always been a Stannis hater but very true about slint smarmy flattery as as you all said like it is the wrong strategy for winning stannis over but i do think i do think that slint got one one piece of the messaging right but it wasn't enough when he was like oh stannis you did your duty by coming down here and i'm like yeah that is what he thinks he did isn't it so i mean he did yeah he did it's true it's true it's what anyone should do it's what any of them should have been ready to do so good good for him for doing his duty but it is just that it's duty i will say i i laughed so hard that like Janoslint didn't show up knowing enough about Stannis

to win any of his little thing with Stannis here, his butt kissing with Stannis, but Stannis fucking knew him. Stannis read him his number and if there is something that Stannis is strong at, I will say him knowing his people like that good for him. Knowing the people

he's gonna have to be around during this time uh i also really love that in the middle of an election jano slint is like no i hate freedom i wish you'd just take all freedoms away from all of us always which is like to be fair at a fast food restaurant it's cool right like that's how i feel at mcdonald's or something i'm like i don't know there's too much just pick something for me but not during an election for how you live your bleak fucking everyday life at the wall i know that he was hoping it would lead to their win you know his win but damn dude you really want to just take democracy away you don't have a lot out there yeah i mean again that shows like how little slint has been here and how little he's really

come to know the culture that he was kind of forced to join because it is a penal colony in many ways too but yeah he like kind of just completely, it's, I think what's so interesting is like you said, Stannis understands Janos Slynt and they clearly work together. It's like, if I didn't get along with a coworker, I'm not going to ask them for a job reference. Right? And that's what Janos did. Like, why would I ask the person I didn't get along with or burn bridges with who clearly doesn't like my performance? long with or burn bridges with who clearly doesn't like our performance so anyways amon saves the conversation and says all right well janice's resume is clean now his past crimes are gone now that he's a brother stanis is in the back like yeah but he's still that can't be erased that's a stained faux life uh well we do change we do turn over to the matter of war the big one the big one lads the ice zombie one and the demon war the brothers remind stannis they fight to defend the wall and not take part in the seven kingdoms wars stannis agrees and he says fine fine, I'll just take your castles and the gift, and everyone's like, um,

excuse me? What? That's kind of a lot. Stannis says he could conquer it, but he would rather it be, uh, gifted to him. Again, they try to give Stannis a history lesson on the gift, and he's like, nope, nope, I want the castles, I want them to be manned and

repaired, and I want them to be manned and repaired and i want that gift yeah and i kind of believe stannis is being a walking conundrum here because we know he is rigid when it comes to law but he's willing to take the gift by force which does not seem to jive with his his framework of how he generally is and he's being very demanding with the whole forcing to choose a Lord Commander thing. He knows that that should be a decision made by them on their own terms, and that he needs the majority of the castles on the wall.

To me, it reeks of desperation, and in my opinion, showcases the danger of prophecy and false preordained destiny that's been placed upon him. To me, this desperation is what will lead him to do what we all think he will most likely do in The Winds of Winter, which is burn Shireen. to me this desperation is what will lead him to do what we all think he will most likely do in

the ones of winter which is burn shireen my prediction for t wow is i actually kind of think that maybe the epilogue of t wow will be from stannis's pov oh fun yeah interesting juicy it would be compelling to get his thought process when he's seeing his daughter burn. And we will talk about it with the night. You know, it all kind of depends on if the pink letter is true, which I'd probably not. But, you know, maybe, you know how time works between these books. Perhaps we'll start getting that stuff. And he actually is dead.

And that stuff did happen around Winterfell but i kind of think maybe not i think that maybe you know with salise and shireen going to the night fort uh in dance and of course the crazy shit that's happened at the night fort i could see potentially that being where the others come crashing through, not like in the show at Castle Black, but through the Nightfort. And that would be the impetus of desperation for Stannis to burn Shireen is to summon that stone dragon by burning Shireen at the Nightfort and probably fail or not work because it's not meant to be or whatever. But I could see that being the end of T-Wow. Burning Shireen at the Nightfort, the others overrunning the wall at that point. I could see that. And I love the Stannis part especially.

I think that having him as the epilogue would be great i could see though it being split yeah and us getting the burning from mel and then the aftermath from stannis of what happened in the camp because i do think unfortunately the bad show did have some things right in season five and i don't know that i've ever said that in my life in one sentence so i need you all to write that down i the only thing that season five did there in that i actually kind of and it's actually especially the way you reminded me of it james of the desperation of a man that that is just like desperate and he's not winning like are you winning son no i'm not not at all uh it's not gonna get better for him right now like i think that's for sure with where he is and he's like under feet and feet of snow

i think that that probably has a little bit of truth to it the desertions at the camp people running you know uh everything being over the fucking gig is up you know you guys have been kind of grifting yeah and it turns out you're not the chosen one and then the wall falling like but then that oh man that and the others taking him and overcoming everything that could be true too like how do you where do you stand on the pink letter like fake or oh i think it's total bullshit i think i think it's i don't know you know we've talked about it before i'm not like a huge author yeah the author is like what makes all the difference right and i think it's probably bullshit coming from somebody on the northern side in some way yeah i love the idea and i don't think

this is it but i love the barbaryary Dustin kind of theory that people have floated that it was her that sent it but I don't think it's true but I love it but I don't know I think it's either like Ramsay gassing him up and lying I think that's very likely honestly I think that's likely

it's like where is it going to happen I don't know I just kind of like you know the Night fort where the night king the dogs also the the hounds yeah and the uh that's yeah the the rat cook uh killing killing a uh a son of a king you know you'll have a yeah so i just find it that's sort of poetic if that's where it happens i don't know if that's gonna be the case yeah yeah no i definitely think it happens there though yeah i think i think you've really got something there with the where and i i really like that idea of a stannis epilogue i haven't

considered that um but i do think it might be split you got to give him time to like really really be like what the fuck have i done to really lose it all lose absolutely everything you know grind him down i just think it'd be good you know for because obviously stan is a divisive character but a character that is what yeah really yeah a divisive character but a character that is loved by a portion of the uh of the fandom it would be interesting to get his thoughts of all this in some absolutely in a pov yeah and i've always wanted i've always wanted you know his thoughts i've always felt like if i had them i would feel

differently about his character but i i really like that idea right imagine imagine if you never got jamie's thoughts or cersei's oh god wish. Every day I think about that. We almost didn't, I guess, you know? Yeah. Yeah, we almost didn't. Better days. Oh my god. I like the Jamie Pio because I think they're interesting. I don't know. I don't know about all that.

Anyways, I was going to bring up old wounds and I didn't. My B. My B. No, no, no. It's just just me you know talking about chloe's actions in the past and i don't know what those actions are you're referring to they didn't happen during the jamie pov don't know i don't think that there's any citation that you could bring up i don't think that you know what chapter it was or what part of the chapter it could have even been because it didn't happen well speaking of people being contradictory i really love this

observation that you made james of of yeah talking about i mean you've given like a great trajectory how we end up there right to stannis's downfall but that's also like a great point of how his actions and here by that i guess i mean his threats really act contrary to where he says he falls when it comes to you know being like i'm about the law and i'm like are you you've kind of just made the law up the law uh you did that and i i kind of wonder like could he have gotten closer to an agreement in regards to being like what if you gifted the gift to me you know like how do you discuss his plans with the night's watch instead of acting very entitled to the land like you know if he's gonna farm it if he told

everyone oh you'll have more food like would the night's watch have been more down i think he was kind of being coy about that because he i feel like he would have known that they would have objected to if he would have told him hey i'm giving the gift to the wildlings uh and okay you guys got to be cool with that and i feel like he kind of lucked out with uh the only one that knew about that plan was john snow and he became the lord commander and ended up agreeing to it uh and I just like, I wonder what would have happened if it had been Cotter Pike, good old Cotter Pike elected as the Lord Commander. That would have been an interesting proposition.

I think that maybe there'd be dead brothers potentially. I don't know. I don't know what would have happened if that was the case. I think that's an interesting what if. There are still dead brothers right now. I'm just putting that out there. Like Jon Snow. There'd be more, yeah. and the people killed during his death people died then too you know

what actually but mostly like stannis people died now that i think about it or got hurt so they're not brothers they're not my not my brothers i don't know i'm not i don't know them. I don't claim them. Something about the entire gift that is, it feels very dirty to me that Stannis is putting his hands on it because it was given directly to the Night's Watch by Queen Alley, right? Yeah, the cat. And Jake.

Yeah, the cats. My cats, Alley and Jake. It was given directly to the watch. So for Stannis, it almost reminds me of how Tywin needs to have a Valyrian steel sword because he never got one, you know? And it was the one shiny thing he didn't have to kind of give his raiment what it needed. Stannis taking the gift, like it's almost like, well, I'll take it and I'll have some sort of bit of Targaryen rule like Robert kind of got, you know? I don't know. There's something really dirty about it, though, that he's trying to take it because it was so specifically given to them and to the North. And because Ned wanted to settle it, right? The settling of the gift is the dream for spring i mean that's probably what's going to happen the

dream of spring the gift being settled and you know even parallel to some of these chapters happening like daenerys in a storm of swords right uh that that the slave masters think they can take advantage of her because she's a slight young woman and she kind of does some a little bit of conniving to prove that she's not just a young woman she knew their language she knew what they planned and now she's roasted them with her dragons womp womp something about that understanding and how like slave masters will never understand a dragon and what a dragon symbolizes and the north spirit i mean asha and sea dragon point when she landed there and she's like oh oh shit, there is nothing at Sea Dragon Point, right?

Like there's nothing that I could mine here. There's nothing that I could cultivate at Sea Dragon Point to have a home or create kind of a fostering. And seeing it as worthless, Stannis looks at the gift and he doesn't see it for those things. He doesn't suggest like, hey, what if we cultivated a bunch of shit for the north what if we use this he sees it as a place to reward his men or a place to pass around some empty shitty titles which let's face it this isn't like this is an island resort right this is the north it's not like a vacation fun land the people that live here live here because their families have lived here for years and years and years and they're a part of the north and it's a hard land and it's not kind to

people as stannis is going to continue to learn i don't know having the gift won't make him king these castles in the cold north aren't going to make him king they're abandoned castles that are going to require capital and manpower to fix when you have ice zombies at your door like this isn't what gives you your iron throne stannis demanding land that really really doesn't belong to you yeah it isn't medieval land fun time world the greatest video that exists on the internet even though i probably mixed it up again it's probably medieval world fun time i don't remember i always mix up the land in the world but i think you're right that it's not going to give him the iron throne at all and i once more do not know who i am i guess i am i defending him i don't know if it's defending

whatever but settling it does help in like you said right like it does help a little in terms of the zombie wars and being able to make it through winter being able to sustain people because the less people that starve to death are less zombies so there's like that it's just as you said right he's choosing the wrong people for the job while he might know that jano slint is not the man for this job he doesn't quite seem to understand that some of the other men that serve him are also not the men for that like godrey faring living on the gift isn't gonna it's not gonna fucking add to society you know like that's not going to help the north be a better north and again it's just like straight up disrespectful that he's taking the gift from the watch because it's literally like or that he thinks he could have any claim.

Like it was given. It was a gift to the watch because the watch don't got shit. Because Allie and Jake went up there and they were like, yo, y'all are broke, broke for real up here. Holy shit. We got to give you this gift. Yeah. It's wrong. It's wrong.

And take backseas seas it's just rude yeah and you know what stannis you'll pay for your crimes in the epilogue in james's epilogue uh yeah because i don't know what we're getting georges um you know you can really see a change in our own characters over the years by like how again how salty we get how savvy yet about the book you're one of girls gone can 2018 uttered us but you know that's inappropriate because we're gonna get these books someday and i really think that everybody needs to have a better attitude about it girls gone canon today 2022 whenever those fucking books happen they'll come out will Will they? They will. Will they?

It's going to be the Jumanji meme. Oh, interesting. Yes. Do you think it would have been more savvy? I mean, obviously, the gift should have stayed with the watch. But do you think it would have been more savvy for him politically in the North to give the gift to Northmen? Interesting. Probably would have been better if he wanted

crops to grow. Because again, Godrey farting is just, I don't know that he's going to have time to really cultivate the hard soils of the North. Yeah, I think that it is like, it's a little insulting because the North has had so much taken from them already too.

But also, I still think that's also kind of insulting, but it's better than putting his own men on the gift in the vast North. I don't know. Yeah. I think fortifying them, no one wants to join the Night's Watch. You know, like maybe you need to change the benefits

for the Night's Watch. Maybe you should have been negotiating that too and then fortifying it so it could have been held by the Watch and having more people that want to be a part of the watch instead of like the 600 that have died uh and not been replaced like talk about fucking turnover you know well there's life insurance if you die you come back the ice zombies and the others you yeah you might kind of survive but again as his life as an ice zombie they sent sam to the citadel to go improve their health care yeah there's an education reform kind

of thing in place that's true uh i just no these are terrible i need some benefits yeah like where are the benefits for what what is the benefit for that gift being taken and you're right like i will succumb to that you are right that having someone there manning it fortifying it on it that's good that keeps kind of a barrier for the rest of the north and for the rest of the fucking nation but it's not the right people and it's the north's land it's not his listen my problem is that the north should be independent and free and not understand this realm so i just don't think these questions are fair you're asking me is what i'm saying james gotcha gotcha i'm just here for the lol i believe in a free and independent north as we all should amen hallelujah so then then Amen. Hallelujah. So then, then Stannis asks for some admin work on the state of every castle and a report of what work must be done.

He's got a deadline. It's within the year. Also, he wants them to all burn night fires. And the brothers find this strange, but Melisandre chimes in. You are. The woman rose in a swirl of scarlet silk, her long copper bright hair tumbling about her shoulders. Swords alone cannot hold this darkness back. Only light of the Lord can do that. Make no mistake, good sirs and valiant brothers. The war we've come to fight is no petty squabble over lands and eyes. Ours is a war for life itself, and should we fail, the world dies with us.

Question. How do you guys read mel do you guys have like a like an accent when you read mel it's aliana that's what i think uh i think about aliana well my my accent would not i think feel no not very authentic you're right i just like i just don't know that that's what people imagine from a view if you would all like to watch me say lines from melisandre you can find it on the ice and fire con youtube where i joined our friends scad and seth to perform i don't know one of the davos santa scenes wasn't it the leech scene or was it the was it leeches i don't remember hmm i i definitely imagine sort of like yeah like breathy and mystical and kind of i don't know deep she's also like a performer right so i feel like at the same time if she's changed her appearance like i definitely would not be surprised if she's

learned and picked up different accents and performs a sort of like all these different kinds of accents as well in order to add to that mystique and allure right because she understands that that performance is part of her power selling it yes yeah maybe an unpopular opinion but she's she's one of my favorite characters oh yeah oh that's not an unpopular opinion okay is it i don't think so i think that it's become i think that your opinions have risen james and i think everyone there's a lot of malappreciation i think okay it might just be our it might just be our discorded listeners it might be our side it might be you might be biased we like her i like her so i i'm excited to learn a lot more about Melisandre. Yeah.

Obviously, she has her moments of, you know, burning people and stuff. But ultimately, like, I do think she's, like, utilitarianism. I think she's sort of like an embodiment of that. Like, you know, the end justifies the means, and she's willing to do what she needs to do to achieve those means. But in her, the end game is a net positive though she does some bad along the way she's like definitely not lawful good but i think she's trying the best she can you know i i legitimately believe she is trying the best she can yeah towards as as you said like doing good and to be fair like there have been so many times where even though i'm probably wrong i think i'm

right so i get it i really get it you know deep down like thinking that you have it right thinking it's right this is fate being wrong going hard ass and like not not taking that faith out you know just going in hard on being wrong. Yeah, I think I'm more like, I don't know, Brienne and Sam and being like, wow, I've really let everyone down. I don't think I'm, I don't even know what the fuck I'm doing. The two genders. So unexpectedly, Aemon chimes in.

These are great pairings. Aemon chimes in speaking of the prophecy of the prince who was promised. And Mel's like, yeah, that's Stannis. He's got the sword, everything. Sam notices Stannis' discomfort during this conversation. And then he dismisses them, except for Aemon and Sam. I find it interesting that Sam notes Stannis shying away from the title of being the prince that was promised, right? Slash Azor Ahai.

Slash I'm still not convinced these are all the same person. It reflects in a way Sam in previous chapters and also in this one, shying away from being called Sam the Slayer. He hates having that title pinned onto his name and earlier James, you were talking about the dangers of preordained destiny and

a lot of what Sam said in those previous chapters is that he rejects Stair Piggy he rejects the Slayer because he doesn't want to be tied to those narratives right so I kind of wonder if like names can sometimes act as a sort of destiny when people really believe in that story themselves for too long yeah I also think that Sam isn't about that life so like he doesn't he he doesn't want to be known as the slayer he doesn't care whereas i think stannis he does want you know he shows that he is uncomfortable uh with when he's called the prince that was promised but he ultimately wants to be the hero i believe yeah where sam is like i just i just want to live

and just be yeah what i need to do so i do believe yeah what you said i also think like and it's especially sam sam like wants to actually be brave right he doesn't care about being any chosen one he just hopes for bravery and for protecting his loved ones that's very important to him and for stannis stannis is willing like we've said to do what it takes to get what he wants and he wants to be as powerful as robert he wants to be so powerful that he doesn't ever have to feel again how he was made to feel in robert's shadow growing up and after the loss of his parents and there's something interesting in that sam has always wanted to shrink into the shadows and be kind of invisible and avoid his father's abuses and you know avoid bullying from the other men at the

watch um and so for once like stan is shrinking away from that name is more that he's willing to do anything to get what he truly wants, right? That power and that fix where he doesn't really necessarily want everything that comes with what she's giving him, right? Like, she's like, okay, this is the cost. You have to be the chosen one now. You're powerful. I've seen your power. Also, you're Azor Ahai. It's a tough job.

Yeah, and your dick is so powerful oh my god i'm gonna pray to it every night there's also something going on that i love here with melisandre and amen of seeing each other as almost equals or understanding each other's professions here more like she at least is regarding him as an equal he says well you've heard of the prince that was promised prophecy and she's like yeah old man everyone's fucking heard that even though she's probably also old woman so this is really from old woman to old man she's like of course everyone's fucking heard of that prophecy amen and it seems they speak like a similar wavelength right they're in the same language of the mysteries, because, of course, he's studied all of the great mysteries and studied his chain links throughout. And she has studied heavily into the mysteries.

You know, like when you read it earlier, like she was like, yeah, it's Stennis. Obviously. How are we not coming to the same conclusion? obviously how are we not coming to the same conclusion but yeah i i find it interesting that uh when amon asks mel where is the prince that was promised that mel says stannis is the prince was promised and says that he is zor hai in the same sentence using those terms interchangeably and i believe she does that throughout the whole series she because like you said earlier and i'm inclined to agree with that that they're probably not the same person. And I don't believe Aemon ever actually uses those terms interchangeably.

I obviously have to go and read every chapter that Aemon was ever a part of. Well, at least post this where he starts talking about it in Feast. But I'm pretty sure he never uses it interchangeably. I think he specifically says the prince that was promised never said the Zorahai. And he believes that Dany is the prince that was promised uh which is probably a pretty good guess but yeah so i i think that's you know it's interesting like first signs and of course when it comes to the sword we'll talk about later but uh that you know we're learning that mel maybe is unreliable when it comes to her what she's seen in her flames she is doing the best she can i just don't know like that the best she can is always the best interpretation

as you were saying right when it comes to these prophecies and it's funny that as you said right you'd have to read all the amen chapters just after this his first mention of it because this is the time that amen busts out he's like you all knew i was a nerd but did you know that I was this kind of nerd? Super grandfatherly magic, like in an anime. Right. You know? Right. And you were all both saying like, well, obviously, I mean, can't you tell? He's right here.

It's Stannis. And it's, everyone's like, her? Him? Eamon's sitting there like, I can't see him. Her? I can't see it. They're like, I can't see him. I can't see it.

Well, Stannis, it turns out, wants to chat about how he got his nickname, Sam the Slayer, right? Sir Piggy. Stannis talks about how Brandel's a great soldier and you don't really seem to be the same. I am not the sort of son he wanted, sire. If you had not taken the black, you would make a useful hostage stannis mused he has taken the black sire i am well aware of that the king said i am aware of more than you know amen targaryen oh whoa he knows his last name. Stannis is all out here knowing bitches today. He's like Janos Slynt, Aemon Targaryen. So you admit it. You are Aemon Targaryen.

And speaking of accents, I feel like you've given like this gruff southern accent to Stannis. I've always... And I guess he is southern. I've always read Stannis as very gruff. I just imagine. But Southern. That's just by accident, I think.

I don't know. I didn't intentionally try to do that. Is it by accident? Or maybe that's just like a very true, you know, very captured essence. I was going for vaguely British, but obviously that's not hitting the mark. So I really do think Sam wouldn't have made a very good hostage, though. I think he, you know, as he pointed out, you're real different. Randall didn't want you as a son.

I legitimately think Randall would have been relieved if Sam were taken as a hostage. He'd be like, what a great excuse for me. Also how he looks at people and he's like, damn, it's too bad you're here where you have like, you know, immunity because you would have made a great excuse for me also how he looks at people and he's like damn it's too bad you're here where you have like you know immunity because you would have made a great fucking hostage in the war so weird he just sees people as numbers that's all they are does he say this after sam says that he was not the son that ran it's like yeah it's like yeah he probably wouldn't make a good he wouldn't make a good hostage there stannis yeah i mean i guess he's maybe he has a point he's like maybe randall charlie with his like toxic masculinity right would have been like i

gotta you know pull a tie win and be like i gotta save my honor get my son back but i'm also just like i don't know i i legitimately think randall would woman like what a great out you know there's also another interesting side to that where when you think about what's about to emerge in the themes of the book of agan targaryen though not necessarily a hostage but taken in the middle of a siege right quote unquote and then raised quote unquote raised raised by a bunch of people into being king uh i think we're gonna see a lot of that of different lords popping up right of lords being taken or held hostage or killed and other people propping up lords in their place we're already seeing a little bit of that with some of the

puppet children through the books right um so i mean sam would be a great hostage in that that he's the first born son of house tarly and if someone got their hands on him that had more power than Randall, that's fine. That would take a spot for them. That would make a good lord under him. Are you implying that Euron might? I don't think Euron cares. No, I wasn't. You were, though, apparently.

I didn't know. I didn't know I was making you. Well, I was also thinking Sam's got to himself hostage oh my god and be his own use his own bargaining you know i was also just thinking about when when stannis dropped amon targaryen you know that wouldn't it wouldn't it uh i was just thinking am Amon, or Eamon, is such a, like, the nomenclature is so Targaryen-esque in its history. It's like, I feel like if you were, like, Stannis, knowing his history, but, like, I just feel like if you were one of the lords that read a lot and knew all the Targaryen names, that I think you'd be able to piece it together that he was a Targaryen. Yeah. If you guys agree with me.

It's kind of like if you were... It's common. Common knowledge. Yeah, like if you were 16th century France and someone was named Louis, you're probably going to be related to the noble family or something. Yeah. Or something. But that's just a thought. That's interesting, though, because when

you connect it that way, he's treating both Sam and Aemon the same way, although their pasts have been deleted, belated uh you know control alt delete get that cleared he's gotten their pasts off the record but yet here he is pulling looking at them only as their worth in westerosi society when they've been completely removed from what like neither of them are lords amen's only targaryen in name and deep in his heart and in the memories of the experiences he's had you know sam isn't that what matters yeah well right but

sam wants nothing to do with being a tarly really in the end you know except for being with his actual family not his father uh so the things that stannis values having the baratheon name you know these men don't put that same value on that. Their lives are way different. He relies on having that name and that little drop of dragon blood for his claim and being Robert's successor. They don't rely on that anymore. They have a sustainable

living-ish. Minus, you know, zombies. Aemon's protecting his new little brother, Sam. Oh my god. Aww, little egg aww I didn't even think about it like that but yeah I guess Sam's his new little egg

and I mean yeah I feel like everyone in the Night's Watch probably knows Aemon is a Targaryen by this point so it's like wow congrats you knew what everyone else knew I mean as we as we see Jon and Sam did not know that when they first entered the Night's Watch but also they like just got there right no one's gonna assume like wow holy shit are you still

alive we don't even get Sam's reaction actually technically um this is the first time it's actually mentioned in Sam's plot that amon's a targaryen so we just assume john told him maybe i'd guess it was john john yeah i bet john told everyone in the way that like again i think everyone that the night's watch kind of knows because one kid finds out and it's like everyone everyone gather around right at the lunch table yeah get a load of this that old guy that's targaryen yeah and i mean i am and says he's not a targaryen anymore that he's just a one-name kind of guy now like prince or madonna but we find out that's not true actually that's great you know like he's still at heart that's so great yeah

it's it there's a lot of things there's a lot of themes about family going on in this book series and who your family is and what could it mean status doesn't care no status is like i don't care about any of this let's talk about the obsidian dagger he just completely changes the subject and we have melisandre going dragon glass the red woman's laughless music frozen fire in the tongue of old valeria small wonder it is anathema to these cold children of the other i always have trouble with that word yeah it's anathema but it's it is a weird one it is a one. I kept messing up typing it today. Every time I typed it, I was like, I would just like split the A and the N. I'm a mess. Anna Delvey.

Anna Delvey. I don't, I honestly don't know that I've ever read it in any other work of fiction, Anathema. I find it a fascinating choice for a couple reasons, because in common use, it just means someone who's detested or shunned or something that's detested or shunned in an ecclesiastical sense though in new testament usage it means a formal excommunication but in the old testament it meant a creature or object set apart for sacrificial offering and removed from ordinary use, destined instead for destruction. So lots of Aeswaf buzzwords, right, floating around in that sentence, honestly, sacrifice and offering and removed from use and destruction. But Melisandre specifically using this in religious cadence, right, using this as a word that the dragon glass was

anathema to the children of the other. That's very interesting. What a religious, deeply religious word to use there for that. And, I don't know, it also made me think about how, like, Shireen's an anathema then, right? She's anathema to this situation

as she'll be a creature or object set aside for sacrificial offering. Rip. Dragonglass herself. If you will. You will? I mean, I just don't know if her death is going to do anything.

So that's why I'm also like, it's a bugger. And if you subscribe to the show showing of how the others were created which i did pre actually pre that i did believe the children of the forest were the creators of the others in a sense of like a manhattan project sense that they were looking to make a weapon of mass destruction to help themselves and it kind of backfired on them yeah but in that case the obsidian was used

to sacrifice a human or a first man into becoming another oh anathema indeed james huh that's an interesting thought yeah dragonglass as like a savior but also as an

enslaver is very interesting. Yeah, that's right. Well, speaking of dragonglass, there is a bunch of it on Dragonstone, and they even come in different colors, like green, red, purple. Stannis is having his castles. Sir Roland, mine as much as they can. And part of me wonders if the different colors, maybe do they do different things? I don't know.

Also, the dragon glass is in pre-made tunnels. Thinking face emoji. How could those tunnels have been made? Do you think it was by dragons? I thought we meant children. Oh, children. Oh, yeah, the children. The forest.

Baby dragons. Let's just combine it i love that we have i mean we have lots of obsidian right across across the globe right now with an eye on it not only dragon stone which props to stannis for starting to mine that immediately it will be much needed hope we can get our hands on it before he tears it up out there you know peace by stannis but also skagos is known to trade with obsidian uh and that's very nearby so i'm hoping we we can get our hands on that cash through davos on skagos i i actually did think about that for the color magic kind of thing eliana like this is this real will it will it do special special abilities uh maybe that's just because i'm playing a lot of video games and i'm upgrading my weapons a lot in different games that could be it there's probably some geologist out there that's like putting up their glasses like oh you know the different pressures at this specific temperature

will make the green i don't know and maybe i do is it believed that the obsidian is just volcanic glass right or is it made from dragon fire i don't i'm thinking it's like volcanic via dragon fire right and it also kind of i mean i'm not somebody who goes far into understanding or thinking about the doom per se but I think something about the doom of Valyria feels important here. So we do have them found in a lot of areas in which there are volcanoes. So that's, I mean, maybe they are made in the way that they are in real life. But I do remember long, long ago, long, long long long long ago over on the aswaf reddit forum if i'm remembering this theory correctly because again it was long ago and the others

take you user the others take you god bless them wherever they are i miss you um said that obsidian might be dragon poop oh my my god. Oh my god. I'm in. And they wrote a long, very long treatise about it. In many ways it's convincing, but they wrote a long thing. So anyway. Magical. That's the true magic of dragonglass right there. I will say, I think we'll see special colored weaponry during the long night.

I think that with that in mind, we'll probably see people get some beautiful colored weaponry. Hey, maybe we'll get some like sapphire blue for Brienne cooking. Right. That could be cool. Accessories. It does make me wonder, too, that link between spells used to make Valyrian steel. Right. make me wonder too that link between spells used to make valyrian steel right uh if you remember that i believe tobo amat when he made forged the swords right he tried to forge in color and fold in color so the two swords split ice split into the two swords has the weird black and red kind of

uh folded into it because of course you know yeah Tywin wishes he was a Targaryen, obviously. So the black and red being folded into it and how it didn't quite take, right? The spells, it just didn't quite take. It makes me wonder if there's any link between dragonglass and Valyrian steel in that. Could have got a nice green sword for Renly. Oh, wait, never mind.

Oh, rip, rip. Would have had to sword for Renly. Oh wait, never mind. Oh, rip. Would have had to live for that one. Don't we all? So, another thing that's interesting is Stannis says that he's set this in motion because he doesn't think he's going to hold Dragonstone for much longer.

So, I just that he calls that out means that he as we all know he is a smart military leader and likely knew that leaving his seat vulnerable for that long was a big risk uh i kind of forgot that he had called that out and i mean it makes sense right after seeing what happened at winterfell being like well shit he left like a skeleton crew there right yeah so i imagine he must have known that it was dunzo at some point relatively soon which of course we'll see it gets dunzoed um that's my that's my guess is he he knew he knew when he when he answered the, the valiant call that he answered.

To me, that's his most triumphant moment. That he was going to lose his seat. Probably lose it if he stayed, too. That's true as well. Well, I think that's the bigger thing. Dan, if you do, Dan, if you don't. Yeah, it's a suicide mission, you know? One way or another, you can either die in Dragonstone in the hovel that Robert gave you. You know know like his

least favorite place or he can go try he can try true maybe i overplayed the valiantness well i don't think that yeah i still think that's valiant i mean like choosing to actually men's lives have meaning not their deaths right so he could choose to stay in Dragonstone and die all wrapped up in his walls, mopey, looking out the window, thinking about Proudwing, you know, Borbs. Or he could choose to do something and make something of himself. So I think it is Valiant, James. Don't be so hard on yourself. Granted, we do got to give props to Davos,

because he was the one that convinced him to go up there in the first place. True, true, true. He is the backbone of that arc. Woo. He is. Much love. Well, Sam explains that the dagger unfortunately shattered when he tried to stab a wight. Turns out these weapons don't work the same against all of them.

And Mel then says of the the whites that steel and fire will work as it's just necromancy but and then she says the ones you call the others are something more then they interrogate him about the black gate at the night fort which is apparently where stannis wants to post up he also wants to see the gate you know know, like James and I said earlier on, this seems fine. This seems like a great place to make your seat with your children, your child, Solis. No subtle foreshadowing here of the horrible things happening there, glossing over that. Very normal. Yeah.

Nothing bad. And that's sort of the, like I said before, that's sort of the reason why I think the bad thing will happen there, potentially. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And as they're leaving, Aemon finally is like, can I have a sword demonstration? Sam can be my eyes. Stannis says, all right, sure, why not? And he takes it out, whips it out. It's very impressive.

Sam explains it, and he's like, man, Aemon, I wish you could see this. And Aemon uses his imagination. it and he's like man amen i wish you could see this and amen uses his imagination he thanks the king and leaves as stannis again insists that there will be a lord commander i will make you guys choose but after he's left amen kind of points out something that he noticed about the sword to sam i felt no heat did you sam hate from the Heat? From the sword? He thought back. The air around it was shimmering, the way it does above a hot brassiere. Yet you felt no heat, did you? And the scabbard that held the sword.

It is wooden leather, yes. I heard the sound when his grace drew out the blade. Was the leather scorched, Sam? Did the wood seem burnt or blackened no not that i could see maester amon nodded back in his own chambers he asked sam to set a fire and help him to his chair beside the hearth it is hard to be so old he sighed as he settled onto the cushion. And harder still to be so blind. I miss the sun and books. I miss books most of all.

I don't want to get that old ever. Just put me out of my misery. Buy him an Audible. Buy him an Audible. One thing I gotta say about Eamon, it's like he has like a near perfect Q rating. Like, no one dislikes Eamon. No one can say anything bad about Eamon. That's so true. Absolutely.

Never heard anyone say a bad word about him. That's true. Be careful. Next thing you know, George is gonna be like, what if we complicated Eamon's history a little? Goddammit, James. I guess I put it out there. Yes, this is all on you put that energy out into the universe uh the the amen telling sam you know we didn't feel anything right and did you

observe the leather is it scorched or not uh all these little lessons on observation remind me a bit of aria getting those sort of like seeing lessons from the house of black and white but also from uh um syria farrell being like i saw the cat the cat was the wrong cat or whatever oh yeah i forgot the exact story that he tells aria about that's interesting and her having to then learn through the eyes of cats on top of that for sure that's those are great connections because he totally knew right even the way he addresses mel when mel leaves with stannis because he says a sword full of sunlight so lovely to behold your grace my lady this was most kind of you and he's like implicating her in the performance that he just saw quote unquote right like it's not just stannis who was performing

he knows melisandre was also performing but i also like that this isn't really new because we already knew that the sword had no heat from davos right when davos said in his mind in his pov as george said i should say when stanis touched it to davos's shoulder it felt no different than any other long sword yeah i'm like that was just like it's just average dude it's like a this is like four four and a little thick yeah it yeah it's i'm gonna make it i'm gonna make a dnd joke uh dungeons and dragons but it but uh amon was pretty much like bro that's just a shitty light cantrip you know it's not a flame tongue weapon yes doesn't do an extra da to damage chill absolutely it actually is just a light

cantrip those were fun somehow he's i think i i think i made you i think i made you like deal with some dumb ass shit where i was like, I'm going to make this person glow. That's my strategy. I do remember that. I'm sorry, James. It worked well. It actually did. You let me get away with that.

Thank you. Eamon says that he won't need Sam until the choosing. And, oh, right. Because now Sam asks, Eamon, is there anything that like you can do or like because jano sounds heinous and amen says well he's a maester and it's improper to be biased so then sam asks if he could do something and amen says back in a way that i assume is like way nicer than when an adult goes like i don't know can you they're like can i do and it's very annoying um when you ask if you could do something but

i'm also just gonna include the quotes because they're fun all right it's a fun series we read it because you like the words i'm not a maester could i do somethingamon turned his blind white eyes towards Sam's face and smiled softly. Why, I don't know, Samwell. Could you? I could, Sam thought. I have to. He had to do it right away, too. If he hesitated, he was certain to lose his courage.

I am a man of the Night's Watch, he reminded himself as he hurried across the yard. I am. I can do this. There had been a time when he had quaked and squeaked if Lord Warmont so much as looked at him. In fact, it was merely three chapters ago. But that was the old Sam, before the fist of the first men in Craster's keep, before the whites in cold hands and the other on his dead horse. He was braver now. Gilly made me braver, he told John. It was true.

It had to be true. First off, I have to say, like, that quote from Amon, why I don't know, Samuel, could you? For some reason, it gives me goosebumps. But yeah, to me, Amon was, he was masterful in this chapter, flexing his knowledge of the prince that was promised.

Because we know that Amon is very smart but we didn't know like how steeped in uh that specific prophecy he was his correct skepticism of stannis as the prince that was promised to those that think that he is he is not do not think that and convincing stannis to show him light is not. Do not think that. And convincing Stannis to show him Lightbringer, and carefully not displaying that skepticism in front of Stannis, and more importantly, Mel. And then, yeah, that quote, you know, why I don't know Sam well, could you,

is a lovely little wink and nod to Sam, essentially nudging him towards the action that Sam is going to take, and embracing his future. It's going to start now essentially a lot of it does start now and this does change a lot of things at the Night's Watch and I absolutely agree with everything that you've said Eamon was masterful and through through what he did models for, kind of what Sam is about to do in like the rest of this chapter. By flexing his knowledge, Eamon shows that, oh yeah, he totally gets where you're coming from, Stannis, speaking the same language and finds a common ground for them to treat. But he's also holding back some of his cards, which is, again, exactly what Sam does to both Pike and

Malister. He's like, yeah, totally, totally, of course, you'd be a great leader, but also, what have you considered this? So it's also just great mentorship on Eamon's part, right? So Sam's getting some mentors now, not just that modeling, but also throwing Sam's question back to him, because he lets Sam reason it out, decide for himself what the best course is, what he's capable of, and he gives sam the space to step up to do his own politicking and and that mentorship that amon starts to show sam is i think part of why it hurts so much to lose him later also because as you said right no no bad points everyone loves amon yeah he's the he's the perfect mentor nothing i say is going to change that. George isn't going to put any wrinkles in. He's perfect.

Never did nothing wrong. Nothing's going to come of that. There's something about this moment with the twinkle in his eye and him saying, I don't know, Sam, can you? This very sweet moment with him that makes you think that he knew what the right answer, what Sam should do. And what Sam chooses to do is probably what amen intended right amen said yes john is much better but you know what it also mirrors in amen's own life it mirrors when amen made egg king when they came to amen and said do you want the crown and he said no, no, it should go to Egg. And that's what this reminds me of, very much so.

I'm realizing that what you just said there, right? That mirroring of Amon's own life and what he did. And Sam copying that. And you said something like Amon intended for Sam to learn there. Did Amon, I mean, he probably needed Sam's help getting into the room physically. But did he? Did he really?

Did he? Like, did he ask Sam to be there? Because he's like, someone's got to be there to go do fancy stuff soon. I think having Sam be his eyes is an important job deeper than, again, like we've been talking about, some of the surface level look of, like, what Sam as his eyes is an important job deeper than again, like we've been talking about some of the surface level look of like what Sam as his steward does. People look down on that.

It's an incredibly powerful position as we just saw right here, the power to make and break politicians, even in your smaller world. And I think that's, I think it's done for a reason. If Amon knew that much, I mean, we see that as Amon leaves with him and they go to Braavos,

that his heart is not just solely with the Night's Watch still, it's with his family, and that he doesn't necessarily believe in what the values of the Watch have become, right? Yeah, and I think that's a good call, now that I think about it, because I mean, he could have had, you know, I'm sure Dennis Malister would have lended a hand if he really needed to go in there, if he needed one. Or I forget the other sort of steward that works with Sam and Eamon. His name escapes me, but he had other stewards that he could have had bring him in there. But obviously he sees something in Sam. He sees potential, great potential in him.

He also kind of like is letting Sam live out the life he couldn't have, right? Like we hear him tell, you know, say to John and Sam several different stories from his childhood and things that he had hopes and dreams for, right? Like liking a young girl before he committed fully in his time at the Citadel and his family and all these regrets he has. And so we kind of get to see him almost clear the way for Sam to conquer some of these things in his own life so that Sam doesn't have those same regrets, right? Like Gilly going to the Citadel, putting in the word for him to go to the Citadel. All of those things are things that Sam otherwise couldn't have. And it's funny because Sam recognizes it

so much when it comes to John, right? He's like, John, don't you see you're the Lord Commander Steward because then you are in the room, you are being groomed to do the same task that you are in the room for and he doesn't recognize that. Could Eamon also see very great potential in me? Because Sam doesn't see that in himself again like that imposter syndrome cropping up yeah i'm glad to get get sam like understanding the power he has i feel like he finally realizes oh shit in this chapter i i can affect some things and he finds that he can affect some things because as you're talking about right in regards to family amen still very much feels a connection

with his targaryen family sam is bc doesn't feel as much connection with his charlie family but now the night's watch is his family right he thinks that gilly makes him braver in a way gilly's become part of his family and sam has someone many someones to fight for and that makes him braver absolutely because that's what it's about love dude that's what like it's all about man yeah in life man man so sam has two tasks in front of him and we're starting first with cotter pike the scarier of the tasks sam gets him alone in the shield hall after begging the other three Eastwatch men and a red-headed Dragonstone sergeant to leave. We get a description of Cotter Pike, not very handsome,

lean, strong body, small close-set eyes, a broken nose, and a widow's peak like a spear, reminiscent of Oberyn, who seems to be a little important around this time in the book. be a little important around this time in the book he hides his pox scars within his thin scraggly beard pike mocks sam's name and accomplishments as he enters and sam deflects so i thought there was a fun maybe play on words here where pike says to sam like are you sure you stabbed another and not some child's snow knight and james earlier you were talking about the creation of the others in the show and i don't know that it's going to be exactly the same right in the books obviously there's things that are likely similar but i'm thinking here of like that child's snow knight i mean maybe right children of the forest making soldiers that are icy.

But it also has me thinking a little bit of Bran, whose story has touched Sam's and Bran, of course, is taking on more power in A Dance with Dragons. He's a child who may be skin changing to use people as knights.

Sash has kind of done so with Hodor. I don't know that like Bran is gonna continue doing that throughout his whole story without remorse it might have a like come to Azor Ahai moment get it like come to G okay I actually

I like I actually am thinking with that language of a child snow knight and stabbing a child snow knight stabbing a snow knight a Jon snow of a child snow knight and stabbing a child snow knight. Stabbing a snow knight, a John Snow Knight. A child. He is kind of like a child knight. So I was thinking of that too. Oh no. Yeah.

I was just taking a stab at it, you know? Oh no! I think both kind of could be stabs in the dark. Get out. Oh my god, James. God damn it. Daggers in the dark. Daggers in the dark. Get out. Oh my god, James. God damn it. Daggers in the dark. Daggers in the dark. When Cotter Pike asks if Eamon sent Sam, Sam doesn't say no.

The maester, Sam swallowed. I, I just left him, my lord. That wasn't truly a lie, but if Pike chose to read it wrong, it might make him more inclined to listen. Sam took a deep breath and launched into his plea. Pike then cuts Sam off, assuming Sam wants him to bend to Malister. Pike thinks that Malister should withdraw. He is too old, he thinks he's going to die soon, and there's going to be a new choosing in about a year if that happens.

And Sam kind of plays devil's advocate, right? He's like, well well Malister is experienced and Pike retorts that well he's experienced at paperwork not fighting unlike the half hand and he says that the watch needs a fighter especially with Stannis here because what else will a mouse want once he gets

a cookie and someone must say no to the milk and Sam confirms Pike won't support Malister Pike says understand this boy i don't want the bloody job and never did i don't know what it is but i love it i love it so much james it had kind of like almost like a southern drawl to it there just a little bit underneath it was good that was good yeah it was it was great yeah yeah pike says that he would rather die than let malister take this job that he wants nothing to do with i just have to put that out as we talk about uh earlier you know the toxic stupidity of some of these men well i i would

rather die though than give it to him uh and he tells him to take that back to amen and i love that these men are missing that like it's two halves of the whole you need somebody that can attend the stewardship you need someone like sam or someone like dennis malister who's good at some of those finite small details, right? And then you also need men like Cotter Pike or like John who are bigger, bigger picture guys, right? That go in there bang some heads. You do need both of them. You can't only have one. You can't have one guy who's full offense. You got to have a little defense. And it's funny that these men are so against each other. These men are brothers and they are so like, obviously there's an election going on, but they're very volatile to the other. You can see this great divide between them. And maybe it guys from their generation in the Night's Watch all getting along

and supporting one another and really going through the hardships together, working together. So some of these other brothers seem to have not really held those values in that light or in the same way as these boys. Maybe they're young, maybe they're not quite as jaded. Jon will be jaded soon enough in the Winds of Winter when it comes out next week. But maybe they're not quite as jaded john will be jaded soon enough and the wind's a winner when it comes out next week but maybe they're just not quite there yet i guess these guys be jaded i feel like the night's watch needs a man like pike you know he does what he's told he's good in a fight he's not scared of anything he follows john's command to go to hard home he's not insubordinate about it uh i personally don't think he's lord commander material because like uh malister will point out later he can't read and i i just think that you're able to

be duped in that sense then by a corrupt potentially maester at some point um that being said i do think pike has merit to being a leader, a part, which he is, obviously. But I personally do kind of believe Malicer is probably the better candidate of the two. But that's just my opinion. Yeah, I think they represent two very distinct sides. You know, we talked a little bit about the brawn versus brain thing there but also pike is kind of coarse right like uh look i've watched veep i know what happens at the national night's watch convention and i know that we're gonna have some bribes back and forth here before we choose a lord commander but you have on the right you have pike he's coarse he has some kind

of conservative gruffer aspects to him. He's our Republican in this election. And then we get to Dennis, right? He's a rich leftist. He gives Yale maybe like a million dragons every year or some shit. Super blue, super blue. And they both also represent Randall Tarly in a way. The two sides of Randall where you have this like savage warrior man that's out there commanding

armies and then you also have this man who does have political savvy he does have stewardship in running parts of the realm uh when you see him in Brienne's chapters yes he's a total fucking prick but he also is like next walk up to the line get your shit move over there next you know he's got people in and out he's getting shit done uh both of these men are like sam fighting these sides of his father live i will say i i do think that if you combine the two you'd have a good candidate yeah you combine the the you'd be gangbusters i absolutely agree um i think if you combine like the good parts of both you know you'd have a fantastic candidate but i think you know what pike pike gets a lot of

things wrong for the same reasons that you said uh but also i understand where he's coming from and that malister also doesn't really get some things like Malister I think doesn't understand that well yeah sure having that sort of political savvy um some of that training can be helpful but to base everything on that continues the whole and this is something that we discussed right back then like when we started the Jon chapters right it continues the whole thing that the Night's Watch is not about, right? Aemon has impressed over and over again throughout this chapter that you come to the Night's Watch, your past is erased, right? Your past doesn't matter.

But Dennis Malister still like put so much stock into that, the way that Waymar Royce sort of did when he came into the Night's Watch and shows the sham of the meritocracy of it. And also for Dennis Malister and and there's some other like parts against him too that i'll talk about a little bit later but you know they neither you're talking earlier about like whether the brotherhood between them i think there's an aspect of aspect of them that is very much brotherly right they both kind of want what's best or what they think is best for the night's watch right and disagree about it they're both like i think i'd be the

better one it's a little bit like how stannis feels about his brothers right i think i'd be the better one i think i'd be the better king is there anything more brotherly than that when it comes to the baratheons and as well as that like both of them say I would be the better candidate. I didn't ask for it. I'm not asking for it. It's just my duty. And it kind of reminds me then of Stannis again, being like, I don't really want it, but it's just my duty. This is just, like, what's best for everyone.

And it's like, so you want it yeah that's just how i feel yeah reluctant rulers always make the best rulers i hear right the ones that don't want anything to do with it or their people that's usually yeah it's always good i understand them not want no one wants to see be seen as great right in all this not everyone can be jaharis and aliceanne i guess or sept and barth i should say sam i was kind of wondering throughout this chapter is sam the barth living a sept and barth i think so i think he is our sept and barth i really do and you know sam knows how to drop lines during this he drops more bait he drops bait to the pike he says what about someone else pike then lists the candidates and their failures he's like no

to marsh othell is a follower slint is tempting because stannis hates him but two kings landing without hob who will cook speechless sam stammers thinks and hopes and uh he says do better next time with sir dennis so we move over to sir dennis who is a knight a highborn well-spoken courteous to sam and gilly and commander of the shadow tower super malastry uh james you're new to girls Gone Canon podcast hanging out. We think he's hot. You know, House Malister seems really hot. Sexy, right? Like the aquiline noses and the steely gray blue eyes and the cheekbones and the gray hair, the silver hair, the eagle. Maybe it's like an America Freedom thing, but you know, they've got it going on and i think he

probably does too dennis seems to have it going on i can see it i could see it maybe like a more scraggly george clooney oh i could see that um i also kind of see did you watch great british bake-off at all uh i can't say that i have okay well great british bake-off has this man paul hollywood on it gotta give him a google i always see him as a malister also for euphoria fans i think that uh this could be cal jacobs's brother from euphoria i don't know something about the silver and the the gray i i just googled paul hollywood and i could see it yeah yeah very paul hollywood little little little little stronger looking than a scraggling yes yes there you go if you mash the two up i think we could get our perfect malister interesting but also bald right isn't he bald yeah this one's bald but you know but yeah i know what was there

i i think so i think he has the it sounds like the malister look right cat katelyn stark wouldn't let that go about jason malice and i'm not gonna either sounds like they just had a hot family happy for them lucky Lucky. Lucky. Well, he calls Sam my Lord of Tarly, which I think that's pretty incorrect based on everything that Maester Aemon told me this episode about people's past. And again, like, what I was saying of like, I don't know. I don't know if that's how it works. But Dennis Malister is courteous. He speaks of Sam's mother being florent, then flexes about unhorsing Sam's grandfather as an attorney.

He also assumes that Sam comes from Amon, and Sam again sidesteps. Sam took a sip of wine and chose his words with care. A maester, chained and sworn. It would not be proper for him to be seen as having influenced the choice of the lord commander dennis compares his and amon's age and wisdom and i'm like interesting he agrees that kings oughtn't name lord commanders especially this one who is definitely gonna lose he thinks but he definitely thinks that also pike should withdraw and that he is better suited and sam says yeah but like pike is the better fighter and dennis is like

sure but fighting isn't everything that a lord commander should be a lord of noble birth and then proceeds to share his own pedigree and then he mocks pike's rudeness to the standards and shows some xenophobia towards the ironborn saying that Pike was raping and murdering when he was still half a boy and then he critiques Pike for being illiterate and Sam again brings a question like all right all right

so would Dennis support someone else suitable and again Dennis also says he doesn't want it he doesn't want it daddy and I'm trying to channel my inner chloe i have never desired the honor for its own sake at the last choosing i stepped aside gratefully when lord mormon's name was offered just as i had for lord corgyle at the choosing before that you know who i heard in that voice poseidon oh my god thank you wow yeah i i think you did that excellently and if i did it i'd probably sound southern

i'm so sorry well i'm going for british when you emphasize things like it's not bad comes through like that i don't know why yeah it's just fascinating i think it's a good choice like as our friend maester mary she takes a southern accent for the Florence, right? Yeah, for the Florence. And she does for the Manderlys as well. For us, for our North Remembers speech during Davos, she did Winifred. And she chose to do Winifred Manderly as a southern woman, if I recall. It might have been Leonette Fassaway.

I can't remember. I don't remember anymore either my damn i i'm an unreliable narrator and dennis echoes pike that well martian yarwick aren't really like equal to the task and also jano sucks so sam starts So Sam starts suggesting someone else trusted by Mormont, Donald Noy, and Corrin Halfhand. Highborn-ish, old blood, well-trained, literate, and a good fighter. Dennis is like, maybe he's young. He's not as good as me, but maybe. Yeah, you know, I was going to go to bat for Dennis here. But you kind of swayed me with his views on putting so much stock on nobility and blood. I do think that that is a problem in the Night's Watch.

It should really be a true meritocracy. And yeah, you kind of swayed me on that i like i think pike would be more apt to promote those that earned deserved it as opposed to you know making someone a first ranger because oh you come from a noble house so you kind of swayed me with that that being said i still don't think pike would have been great either but yeah they're both especially unqualified in their own special unique way um so yeah along with that you know the xenophobia i'm also just like how are you going to lead all these people if you like hate a bunch of them which i mean so does so does cotter pike like i know that like the ironborn also don't necessarily like the mousers but he doesn't ever say anything about, specifically,

them in the same way Malister does about all the Ironborn as a people. And it's just like, bruh. Yeah, equally. You have to lead them equally. That, and then the Free Folk, too. Actually, it kind of makes sense now why these men were sent off to their castles. You know what I mean? Like, okay, well, how about you just go lead over here and we forget about you. Bye.

This guy's annoying. They're kind of like when James said, Stannis was a good admiral and maybe should be like cap there. That's how we feel about Cotter Pike and Dennis Malister. You're good at this job and maybe that's where your career ends.

Yeah. Okay, I'm doing this for you, Eliana. Thank you. Sam remembers. John said thou could be honouring a lie if it were told for the right reason. That was a lot of work. So Sam lies.

Yes. Flip from Sam to John for you. So Sam lies. Stannis will name Cotter Pike if they don't decide by tonight. Then Sam leaves Dennis thinking and wonders what he's done and then realizes

if they caught him in his lie they would what? Send me to the wall? Rip my entrails out? Turn me into a white? suddenly it all seemed absurd how could he be so frightened of cotter pike and sir dennis malister when he had seen a raven eating small paul's face yeah and it was at that moment he embraced his his inner yolo he he he knew at that point it's like why does this even matter anymore? Like, why am I so scared? Right?

Because he's seen some shit. Exactly. Exactly. More shit than these two. They stayed in their little castles where they were exiled to. Anathema. I mean, they have jobs. They have jobs.

They were doing those jobs. And, but I agree. This is a turning point for Sam. He's like, what can't they even do? He's seen the worst. And what I like about this is it shows this great growth in him, right? He failed persuading Cotter Pike the first time, learned, oh, well, the world didn't end just because I put myself out there and, like and it didn't turn out the way I had hoped.

And so he gives it another go, this time with Dennis Malister, using the lessons of what he got wrong with Pike. And then he's like, you know, fuck it, fuck it. Failure's whatever in returns for Pike. Again, implementing those new lessons. And I think learning to deal with failure is really important for development, not just like character development i do mean character development but like in real life development of our person peoples yeah and like you said he takes all that back and he's like would you withdraw for someone who is a fighter who defended the wall squired for mormont also a bastard pike is super

fond of the idea he's like oh malister would hate this yes and he's like i mean i'd be better i'd be better but whatever and sam lies again and he's like well listen if we don't choose tonight if no one's decided stannis is gonna choose dennis sam in this in this chapter it was a master class this whole interaction between the two malister and pike and it just shows how you know his great character growth because i mean could you have imagined him doing this at the beginning of this book before well i guess this book started with this but yeah he this this wouldn't have happened and i I just think that it's, you know,

he had it, he had the courage in him all along, but you know, his experiences brought it out in him and, you know, he's doing the things necessary for what's best for the night's watch. And it was a delight to reread this chapter. I loved it.

And his politicking and his intelligence and bravery are sign of things to come for Sam and feast and, and beyond. And I'm here for it. Like with the whole aim on giving the nod and theast and beyond. And I'm here for it. Like with the whole Amon giving the nod and the wink and him saying that gives me chills. It was the same for that last, the last lines of this chapter was very, I don't know what it, I love the way that George ends chapters sometimes where it's like, it doesn't end like, I don't know, the words perfectly, but the way he ends it has kind of like that epic chilling feel

sometimes and that's how this one ended and yeah that was great I didn't even pick up on that at first when I was thinking about it him knowing what to say to Pike to get him on his side the whole bastard thing you know Dennis Malister who would hate a bastard being in charge of the Lord, you know, being Lord Commander. That's, I think that's awesome. I love Sam. I like the way you've put that because it reminds me a bit of Jon and Mance. When Jon has to kind of convince him to accept him as a free folk. And, you know, he says, do you remember the feast where they put the bastard

uh leveraging that status and leveraging that class status to be like oh yes of course you have issues john snow come aboard and sam here leverages it in both of those ways a great opposite look at the beginning of the chapter where you see janos fail at politicking, right? Janos absolutely fails at understanding the politician that he's working for here. And, you know, Sam embodies, in the last few chapters alone, Sam has more than bodied, when can a man be brave? You know, the entire thesis of, well, only when a man's afraid can he be brave. Sam's been afraid. He doesn't have to be afraid of this. What's the worst that happens? He gets elected and gets stabbed?

No, that's not going to happen to him. If Sam's showing us right now in his very first real scheme with a little bit of confidence from Aemon and nudging, and like James said, a little bit of that YOLO energy going on, the Citadel is going to be insanely fun to watch. Sam is going to be able to hold his own before all the chaos breaks loose in the Reach, for sure.

That's actually why Euron's chaos in the Reach works so well for Sam being trapped there, I think, right? Because it's a whole new form of chaos to deal with. He's already dealt with all this bullcrap. And, you know, the other thing that sticks out is his bravery for gilly right and now that he's falling for gilly and falling in love with

her and wanting to take care of her love as we see in this chapter and many of the other chapters in the story that my god that's the greatest magic of all man right love is the magic where it's true he's embracing this inspiration gilly has given him right it's a powerful magic and it's one that they try to actually stamp out of knights of orders right uh maesters of the citadel the knights watch men removing isolating you taking out your heart saying you know these are your loyalties. This is what you do to serve the realm. Love is like the craziest and the wildest of all wild cards, right? It's won wars. It's lost them.

It's brought powerful, crazy motherfuckers to their knees. If Sam's in love and he feels confident right now, that dude's going to be able to do whatever he wants. Amazing. And like, in that same very positive note, I do want to flip it and say let's check in on johnny boy because while this is positive sam's sudden political machinations and success before john gets elected even he has a lot on his plate right now right last chapter stannis was like yo you want winterfell and val uh and he thinks in the very next chapter following this, in Jon's next chapter,

he thinks, Ygritte wanted me to be a wildling. Stannis wants me to be Lord of Winterfell. What do I want? Well, Jon doesn't really get a chance at that, right? Sam kind of chose it for him from Maester Aemon's push. And I think there's something so interesting of choice in the series choosing and choice no chance no choice uh the choosing of course you have that line in a game of thrones with cadeline when eddard leaves and she thinks that's him making his choice i think there's just so many powerful iterations of how george wants to play with choosing and choice and here in a storm of swords the election is referred to constantly as a choosing and it does make me think back to a game of thrones 8 for john with amen the old man laid

a withered spotted hand on his shoulder it hurts boy oh yes choosing it has always hurt and always will i know john's had his choice taken out in most of these matters for himself, right? From birth, he didn't get a choice on his family or how he was raised or brought up, whether it was in the way his parents really wanted it or not. And in crowning him right here, in Sam crowning him in this chapter and the next, it kills him. To crown him is to kill him to give him the lord commander job does bring him to his fucking imminent death uh and in a way bad show aside if sam has something to do with crowning or revealing john's true heritage and maybe in that same way pressing him to unfortunately make a claim on the throne whether or not he wants it it's probably to crown

him is to kill him again shit it's it's super fitting this probably isn't the last election we're gonna see sam accidentally rig for john right maybe something sam says accidentally will put his hat in the ring for the throne you know yeah i mean when all those other men were like, I don't really want it. John's like, I really don't want it. That's why I didn't enter the running. Yeah. But everything that you've said here, absolutely. I love the way that you've drawn together all of those themes about choice, right, and choosing. Because I do think of that aim in line when they talk about this choosing.

I'm like, what an interesting name for your election based on the themes of this book series so yeah and again egg you know i think egg on the unlikely john is egg on the unlikely himself in many aspects whether or not that's his name you know egg on the unlikely himself and he is an unlikely Lord Commander. The youngest to captain the Quidditch team in how long? Oh my god. Just saying. I also find it ironic that he was going to choose to decline Stannis.

Yeah. And he was afraid of the ramifications of that. Yeah. And he was afraid of the ramifications of that. But he ended up getting lucky and Sam rigging the election. And so it's interesting to see what would have happened if what would have happened with Stannis necessarily right because he gets out because he's fucked and he's the lord commander instead it's a total loophole which is a very john snow thing and probably something to pay attention to right he might have other loopholes to get out of things in the future yeah and if if the timing wasn't right and he had declined stannis before he was elected who knows stannis might not have listened to him about going to the night fort maybe he would have just taken shit by force yeah um i guess it's an interesting what if everything going according to keikaku oh my god speaking of keikaku um and and you're talking a little bit about sam's future

and what's going to happen to him going to the citadel a lot of the way that he has interfered with the election here and the way that like i mean amon didn't directly but there's a there is an aspect in which amon has kind of helped tip the scales by empowering sam to to go do some politicking and to use amon's name right in a way i i mean i don't know how amon would feel about that i think amon would be like good job good for you kid but uh in an earlier chapter in which sam asked if if lying's okay to john john's like i don't know if you'd be great at lying maybe on paper here. Here we have seen that, again, Sam, multi-talented boy, great at lying on paper, great at lying to your face.

And I think back to Barbary Dustin's speech of being like, I don't really know what those maesters are about. So we're seeing Sam kind of starting to follow that path, right? Like, just because he's a maester maybe eventually right or or a brother of the Night's Watch that doesn't mean that he's not going to have his sympathies and that doesn't mean he's going to press that doesn't mean he isn't going to put his finger on the scales when it comes to the politicking in Westeros especially if he's in such a central place to some of where that information comes from like the Citadel yeah another interesting thought I just had was

obviously when Aemon nudged Sam to hey go do what you got to do he didn't give explicit you know he didn't get I don't remember if this is talked about later like i said it's been a while since i read the books but he didn't you know specifically nudge sam to choose john that's true as the alternative so i wonder if i don't know if amon had some sort of inkling i mean i guess because you know obviously sam and john are close yeah and and that would maybe naturally be the way to do it but he he did put a lot of faith in sam to do this to get things done because he didn't really give very explicit information and even tell him hey divert it to someone else it was that was all sam's volition in doing you know all jokes aside like there is the the harry potter and the prisoner of azkaban it reminds me of dumbumbledore in that fucking aspect of the Time Turners that like he doesn't tell Hermione and Ron and the Prisoner of Azkaban what the fuck to do to save the day. Just, I give you permission to go do it. You'll figure it out. Wink, wink.

And it does remind me in a way of something like that, that like Eamon knew that he could trust Sam to choose the right thing and do the right thing. I think. I think he knew that whatever Sam came up with would probably be better than what they were facing. And I think he knew that it was B. John. I think so too. Now that we're thinking about it.

He's a very astute man that Aemon very good at seeing into people's hearts somehow yeah everybody loves him never did nothing wrong all he did wrong was dying okay well comes for us all

I believe he made it to 102 I think he should have tried harder. Oh my god. Like I said, I do not want to live that long. Please put me out of my misery. If you guys are still listening to us then, at that time, when the Winds of Winter finally comes out, when I'm 101, in, oh god, what, 80 years? I'm 21 now?

My god. Put me out of my misery. um my god put me out of my misery i i imagine the percentage of people that made it to 102 in a pre like antibiotic world is probably pretty low yeah so he did well it's interesting he had a stressful life so it's interesting that he made it that far it's that targaryen magic man you know the magic of love perhaps even That you're talking about. The love of his brothers. He had to watch them all die from afar, Eliana. No, not those brothers.

His new family. Maybe it's actually like the magic of pain, you know? Wow. Pain. Pain preserves. And with that, this has been a blast to record this episode with you, James. Thank you so much for coming. Do you have any closing thoughts on Sam, on his plot throughout A Storm of Swords or today in the fifth chapter?

First off, I really enjoyed this. It's been great getting back into the books. It's been a long time. And yeah, you know, I read in preparation. I did read all of Sam's chapters. yeah you know i i read in preparation i did read all of sam's chapters and it it is actually kind of a little abrupt how quickly he sort of because like i didn't i didn't remember in my head i was like oh this was like i thought this was like game of thrones a clash of kings sam i thought that was already over in a clash of kings but uh no he gets there and he's gonna soar and he's

gonna be awesome and i just think he's a great soar and he's going to be awesome. And I just think he's a great character. And I'm glad that you brought me onto one of his chapters. Well, thank you. Thank you for agreeing. Thank you for coming out of retirement for one last job. Hopefully you don't die. And when you, yeah, when you first reached out, I did the Murtaugh.

Well, you're not 102 okay so buckle up not everyone could be 21 like i am well thank you again james for joining us and could you remind everyone where they can find you you could check out the hype swatch youtube channel channel. We, in the past, the long past, we did a bunch of rereads and other random videos. And also, I actually, no, I just thought about it. I actually have a YouTube channel myself that I actually did quite a few videos on. It's just my name, James Bushel. And you can find me on Twitter at jbush, that's B-U-S-C-H 55.

And yeah, that's about it, really. Go check him out on Twitter and on YouTube and at that joint channel. I joined for, I don't think you were on that one. I joined for one of the Cersei chapters where she treats with the High Sparrow for those rereads. And I don't think you were there for the west i don't know if we did any of those joint videos together yeah there was like what nine of us so someone you know some of us had to sit out on some of them or be too much of a cluster yeah well they're fun round tables if you have time go check out some of those great round table

discussions over at the hypes watch it's got to be fun to reminisce too and see you know what the talk was then compared to what everyone's talking about now i'm sure that i was i was like ride or die stannis going hard in the paint i'm sure wow so character development in the flesh in the flesh development's important hey you know what i think and i mean back me up on this but I think Stannis is a spectrum Everybody is on the spectrum of Stannis whether it's you like him a little whether it's you hate his guts

whether it's somewhere We all are still on Stannis Isn't that the case for all the characters? I guess except for Aemon A Song of Ice and Fire is a spectrum It's a spectrum There's some characters you're indifferent to and he is a spectrum Okay It's a spectrum Well I mean there's you know There's some characters you're indifferent to

And he is not usually one that is People are indifferent to There you go There's usually an opinion That's true Who am I indifferent to? I have to think that I feel like that's even harder

Where's Micah with his minor characters? That one steward I was asking about Yeah there you go Yeah absolutely Absolutely Well Perhaps you feel strongly one steward i was asking yeah there you go yeah absolutely absolutely well perhaps you feel strongly about us but hopefully positively because you're here at the end of this episode if you would like more girls gone canon you can find us on social media at girls gone

canon c-a-n-o-n on twitter that's the only social media we're on i don't know why i said social media at large or you can find us and shoot us an email at girls gone canon at gmail.com yeah and if you have not already take a second and subscribe to us follow us rate us on the nearest podcast platform that you listen to us on we are are on a bunch. We are hosted at Podbean, Spotify, Google Play, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Podcasts, Pandora, you name it. We're at many, many, many, many platforms. Find us there. Yes, and of course, you can always find us on Patreon.

Patrons in the $5 or Stranger Tier and above get bonus episodes every month. Last month was the Circe POV, but not that Circe, Circe C-I-R-C-E by Madeline Miller. And this month is a, you know, it's a mystery, even to us. TBA to be announced. And hey, if you want to join up in the thunder tier and above that's the ten dollar tier and above you do get access to our private discord server where we have a monthly brunch slash happy hour event every month we hang out do some games get to know you etc and also weekly events for a

rewatch of his dark materials and more events to come i'm hearing more events to come yes as always i have been one of your hosts chloe and i have been another one of your hosts eliana thank you again to our other host this episode james thanks james james like a pokemon like you're saying your own name james james thank you james it was my pleasure so much for joining we'll be back with Thank you, James. It was my pleasure. Thank you so much for joining. We'll be back with Feast next week. Yes.

A feast for clothes. Feast for Chloe. Remember when we had that feast? RIP. Anyway. All right.