Girls Gone Canon Cast - ASOIAF Episode 171 — AGOT Bran VII

Episode Date: October 21, 2022

The last Bran chapter in AGOT is a dream come true. --- Eliana's twitter: https://twitter.com/arhythmetric Eliana's reddit account: https://www.reddit.com/user/glass_table_girl Eliana's blog:��https://themanyfacedblog.wordpress.com/ Chloe's twitter: https://twitter.com/liesandarbor Chloe's blog: www.liesandarborgold.com Intro by Anton Langhage

Hello, and welcome to Girls Gone Canon Reads A Song Of Ice And and fire episode 171 bran in a game of thrones chapter seven i am one of your hosts chloe and i am another one of your hosts eliana it's the final a game of thrones brand chapter oh sorry i thought you were we were doing final countdown. Yeah, it's the last. It's brand seven. Lucky number brand seven. Oh, yeah.

Kind of unlucky, though. Yeah, kind of unlucky. Those damned Faith of the Seveners with their murdering Ned. True. What a bummer for all. This is a sad chapter. We're going to try to keep it lighthearted for you. As we learn once more that Ned's dead for like the whatever time. You know how that goes in this story.

How many times have we learned that Ned is dead in this story? Like five, six, seven. Yeah, at least it like happens all at once when you do a straight read through, you know? Yeah, it's funny. I remember back, way back when, when we first were doing some of these you were like why don't you just copy the old lightning rounds and i'm like that's not fun eliana then they have to hear the same thing every pov yeah i think everyone else remembers you know what we said in our episodes better than we do for me i'd be like wow this is so new i don't know if you

copied the same text i'd be like this is brand new and you know i'm sure our listeners would catch and be like they said that then i'd be like oh god i run the qa department you know which is a problem ally and jake assist me sometimes but you know how cats are man they're not great at that not at all not at all they are not a help on tuesdays either or mondays when we record and put up our House of the Dragon episodes. If you're not watching the HBO critically acclaimed show, House of the Dragon, it's fire and blood, but on TV for the Dance of the Dragons. And actually, I know you've all been burnt before, like me.

It's pretty good. Yeah, we're having a great time. It's fun. I actually really am having a great time. I thought you were going to stop, like you said said house and then i was like house just md i was like we're not covering that show no no my god no we're covering the other hot d wait what he is kind of a hot d yeah i don't know i've never watched it oh well you've seen veep so same character oh my god wait yeah lori he lori so glossing over that we are putting out weekly episodes on house of the dragon tuesday mornings those hit your feed

if you're a patron we try to get them to you monday nights but we just have so much excitement for these episodes sometimes they runneth over. So listen up, keep your eyes peeled, look out for those. They're fun. We're having a blast with that show. And we have some other bonus content coming your way this month. Not just your two episodes a week,

but also a new Patreon episode. At long last, we have figured out what our Patreon episode is going to be this October. Inspired by a random person's fantastic Twitter question, we are going to be talking, we are starting a new series. And we actually already even know what next month will be. Thanks to this series we have decided to start. I don't even want to say this. I can't believe you're making me say a series is it not

girls gone canon we start series do we finish them sometimes yeah we finished the dance series we eventually did finish that and now we've gone back we're doing it again so Sansa's next as you can tell from that pattern yeah we are going to do Kingsguard this month

we're doing the Kingsguard we finished His Dark Materials sorry Yeah, we are going to do Kingsguard this month. We're doing the Kingsguard. We finished His Dark Materials. Sorry. Next month, we're going to be covering the Queensguard. So I'm, no offense, but I'm slightly more excited about next month for some of the nuances that get to be added. However, I am looking forward to this total Kingsguard Sausage Fest episode. Our favorites, our least favorites, some of the different, you know, bits about them themselves and the lives they lead and also the entire work culture of the Kingsguard and how toxic

it is. Yeah, I think we'll talk a little bit more about some of them and the lives that they lead, etc. Like more in depth as we go through the generations in other parts of it. But this one's kind of talking about apparently there's like a lot to discuss. They hold a lot of different roles and thought it'd be good to kind of discuss what really goes into the duties of a Kingsguard before we dive into the nuances of how that plays out with the Queensguards, you know, just sort of laying that groundwork. Yeah, it adds a whole new layer. I'm excited to

explore that in the next two months. And there's some other exploring you can do. If you're a patron in the $10 and up tier, the Thunder tier, not only do you get access to the bonus Patreon episodes, but you also get access to our private Discord server, lifetime access, if we're being honest. We do hot D weekly discussions. Our friend Maddie hosts them. It is a blast. She does an awesome job. She does a nice presentation. Usually there's some just great chats going on and just some discussions between people on the things they like, the things they don't, what they look forward to in the future and speculation. And we also host a monthly brunch

slash happy hour. This month is October 23rd, where you can hang out with friends, play some reindeer games, some A Song of Ice and Fire Halloween-themed reindeer games, possibly, if you will. And 2 to 4 p.m. ET. We'll all be in the voice chat, hanging out. Feel free to be on video or on voice and And having a good time for a couple hours. Yeah. Well, I think we've been getting some emails and tweets of note. I think we're going to bring them back for Clash. We're going to Clash with them.

Yeah, I think we're going to bring them back for Clash. I know that our friend Brandon, though, has said, Eliana needs to stop bullying Chloe. That's part of the charm, I think. Which Brandon are we talking about? Is it Bran Stark? Is it Brandon the E-mailer? Yes, maybe both.

Brandon the E-mailer. Oh, that's wonderful. That's a new title. It is. The Serious, the Peaceful. Watch out. We have a better title on our hands. Yes, I look forward to Brandon the E-mailer.

Come again. And, of course, we have some other e-mails from friends like, I think my friend Warren that you might know, and Pete, and a couple other people that are hanging out in our inbox we gotta get to, so keep your ears peeled for next month when we are well into Clash.

But until then, let's do this lightning round. Yeah, starting off with Daenerys VI. A wine merchant attempts to poison Daenerys. Khal Drogo decides to take the Seven Kingdoms. Catelyn VIII. At Moat Cailin, Catelyn tells Robb they must win or die. You know, get it?

Yeah, I do. There's no middle ground. Tyrion VII. 300 mountain clansmen bring Tyrion to the Inn at the Crossroads where he discusses war plans with Tywin. Sansa 5. At court, Sansa begs mercy for her father. Barristan, the Kingsguard, storms out at the new policies. Good for him. Wish I had a backbone. Good for him. Ned 15. Varys visits Ned in the Black Cells where he tries to convince him to lay down his honor for the sake of the children. Wow. I didn't know that Ned cared so much about the children of the forest.

My god, he doesn't. That's the problem. Catelyn 9. Robberize the twins where they negotiate terms for crossing the Green Fork with Lord Walder Frey. for crossing the Green Fork with Lord Walder Frey. Jon VIII. Jon reluctantly receives Lord Mormont's sword, Longclaw. That's not a euphemism. Maester Aemon speaks to Jon about love, family, and duty. Promise me, promise me, promise me.

Daenerys VII. Khal Drogo defeats another khalasar, taking a town captive. Dany intervenes when she sees the Dothraki raping the women and rescues a healer named Mirri Maz Dor. Tyrion VIII. Tyrion and the Veil Men are assigned to Gregor Clegane's command. Tyrion meets a sex worker named Shae and is called to arms right before dawn to fight the enemy, but soon learns Robb Stark has tricked them. But Robb, so clever. Catelyn X, undetected by the Lannisters, the Stark host arrives at Riverrun, and they plan an ambush on Jaime Lannister. They capture him,

but the victory is bittersweet. Daenerys VIII. After falling from his horse, Daenerys orders the khalasar to stop for Drogo, and she calls Merry Maz Duur to heal him. Merry obliges with blood magic. A fight ensues, Jorah's injured, the blood riders are killed, and Daenerys begins to hemorrhage. Arya 5. Arya hunts pigeons, the street of King's Landing, until the bells begin to ring. She tries to get to her father, through his confession, but Yoran of the Night's Watch stops her. Leading us into Bran and a Game of Thrones chapter 7, Bran and Rickon dream their father's return to the crypts of Winterfell. Maester Luwin gives them a history lesson, and then a raven arrives, informing them that the boys were indeed right their father is

fucking dead i mean it's true it is true he is dead we we know this we literally just saw it you know there were pigeons ah the pigeons oh my god the pigeon pigeon wings pigeon words so little pigeon in the yard below boys and men alike are training to go to war for winter fell 20 or so it's that's the oldest right there is also even younger than that the sound is of wood on wood which is kind of funny you know contrasting that steel against steel that we've heard before from a lot of these yards there's thwacksacks and yells. Sir Roderick strides between them all saying, no, no, no. And Bran realizes they don't really seem to be fighting very well. It kind of reminds me actually of Dunk and Egg 2, The Sworn Sword, where you have all these young

men who don't know how to fight. And I i think you're gonna bring a little bit more about duncan egg in a little later on but i it really goes to show right like i mean we all know these aren't really like full-grown men right and especially as they're training them so young it really just shows the churn of war and then also how if you're killing these many people including the the next generation and getting ready for that like how the toll that war takes and stagnating there's a society especially when we hear like these long long like thousands of years of history and you're like wow dang they haven't changed that that much huh well that's what robert's rebellion was all about right they're the age of the children that were born at that time and robert's rebellion was about them not having to go to war, about them ending the tyranny,

as well as maybe doing a little power play. But it depends on which side we're looking at here and how you're looking at it. But you know, it was their goal to end that tyranny and to live in safety. And, you know, they had the Greyjoy Rebellion ten years later, and those boys weren't old enough to go to war then. They were what? Ten. Eight to ten. Maybe they could squire, but all of these folks are also probably a lot of small folk. Absolutely. I think that is the case,

right? They're not trained, and now they have to suddenly learn real fast. They weren't supposed to have to go to war. Maester Luwin agrees that the fighting isn't going well and watches through his mirish lens, noting the comet in the sky. He says Roderick is still doing the right thing and drilling the boys, training new men to walk the walls. Rob and Ned had took the best of the North with them, and now it was time to create a new guard. Bran, meanwhile, is full of resentment for the boys below, thinking if I had legs I'd

beat them all. He remembers using a wooden sword to knock Tommen down and tells Luwin, I could work a poleaxe if Roderick taught me. Luwin says it's unlikely that men use arms, legs, and thoughts as one when they fight. Brant's still gonna do that. Yeah, it sounds like Brand has really gotten that idea in his head he's like well I can just like use Hodor's legs and I'll be the arms and stuff right and we'll be one night and Luin's like

I don't really like that idea you know I think Luin at the very least he keeps being like Hodor can't live his life like this every time when it comes to things about Brand and how Brand's treating hodor luan every time is like whoa deep concern deep concern what's happening makes you think about varamir of course and what happens in the end of his chapter i mean you drive people insane doing that to their mind there's also

a little bit here that kind of reminds me of john and his arc in a game of thrones right when brand's like i would beat all of them if i were out there it's like yeah because you've been like training how to fight for years and they're just learning right now and also is it that impressive that you knock down tommen tommen's i mean i guess they're of similar age but i'm also like he's also a little kid. A sweet little dough boy. I love it. Yeah, what do you want?

Like, it's not that amazing. Chill out, Bran. I know that he, I understand the resentment that he's feeling, right? Like, but I'm also just like, chill out. It's interesting because they're both coming from exactly what we just talked about, that like, they had a time of peace. they're both coming from exactly what we just talked about that like they had a time of peace you know the whole goal was no more tyranny after everything we just bled and no more war because we just bled far too hard to get this and also they were distant and so you see how tommen was raised in king's landing and you see how bran was raised you see the difference in the two boys

absolutely one a very strong boy the other oh wait no wait wait shit wrong story definitely reminds me of the broken man kind of ideal as well right knowingly or unknowingly when you're sending someone else into battle to clash against another just that language of and then the men send their men over you know like red rover style to go fuck the other men up and it just like reminds me of that language of controlling people in war especially the hodor is not a mule to do with as you wish yep bran i really wish you had remembered this disappointed i'm not mad disappointed we could be mad depending on how it goes in later books we'll see well that's true that's true we need a book for that there's no confirmation i haven't read it yet it's true i like that they're talking about

a pole axe there is a lot of dunkin egg in this chapter like a lot of little tidbits that i'm pulling out that i'm like ah they talk about that in dunkin egg and the pole axe is actually what lucas long inch wields against duck in the sworn sword yeah and it's also i think maybe a little more significantly to this what rob kills karstark with long loo waited beside the block but rob took the pole axe from his hand and ordered him to step aside this is my work work. He dies at my word. He must die at my hand. And then Rob flung the poleaxe down in disgust and turned wordless to the heart tree. He stood shaking with his hands, half clenched in the rain running down his cheeks.

Gods forgive him. I think it's an interesting choice. That's kind of one of the next bigger mentions of poleaxe in the story. So there's a little connection with Rob using it. Yeah, it's pretty interesting because I also am like, at first I was like, why is Rob using a poleaxe and not the sword? And I was like, oh, that's right.

His family ancestral sword gets stolen. Fuck. Would have come off much cleaner with a Valyrian cut. Oh, absolutely. Below, Rodrik says, you fight like a goose. He pecks you. You peck harder block the blow bach bach he pecks like a goose he pecks you it's not bach it's more like honk honk or honk honk affleck affleck it's like the funniest line in this chapter because this chapter is really sad

yeah there's only a couple of funny lines like rickon and this one from roderick hysterical oh roderick all the boys in the yard laugh at roderick too just like me and he's not joking he comes upon them and he's cawing and he's like you fight like a hedgehog which i'm like oh house high are you making fun of house high oh roderick what a sweetheart so bran also was like hang on loophole there was a night once who couldn't see telling old nan's tale of simeon star eyes or simon star eyes depending on how you're feeling who put sapphires in the empty eye sockets makes you wonder if like a how long ago does the three-eyed crow go back like the concept of it yeah the concept of it over time like is it really how passed down is obviously blood raven isn't the first like there was someone before him and someone before him and

someone before them yada yada you know we don't know how far it goes back because what if simeon star eyes was one of the three-eyed crows or one of the failed three-eyed crows disciples he has the symbolism with the eye like you're on smiling eye and also he fought with a pull axe type weapon he fought with a staff with blades on each end which is like a double-edged lightsaber in my mind. I'm like, oh, so you're a Sith. He's part of that Sith energy, big Sith Lord energy, like Aemond and Euron. Aemond, one eye, and Euron with his smiling eye. But they all have that very similar sapphire eye imagery going on and losing an eye to gain something.

Interesting. It makes you wonder if maybe... Yeah, or both eyes so interestingly i was actually thinking of death note a little bit of like you know you have you like have h-a-l-v-e your life and then you get a you get shinigami eyes equivalent exchange yeah you get the shinigami eyes and you can see like people's like death things but anyways so with this i'm like on one hand the whole idea simeon star eyes you know if he was blind and can still like do this i'm like oh yeah george loves superheroes and probably like i don't know likes daredevil and on the other hand

i'm also like oh foreshadowing for aria but also with what you're saying of how far back does this go there's also the weird thing about simon star eyes of a what is it that he was blind and then was like using green seeing to see things around like kind of like aria or is this like a mistranslation that got lost over the years does he have sapphires especially because it says star eyes is he an other or something right that's That's interesting too. I've always wondered that. Yeah, we don't know. Like there's like so many ways that his legend could go, which is really interesting. Oh, maybe he's cold hands.

Maybe that could be interesting too, right? Especially as you said with the poleaxe and the whole you're monster. Yeah, that's kind of what I was thinking. But I also kind of think the, you know, the every having everyone come back and everything come back is can be silly. So I know George isn't doing all of that of everybody is secretly this person or whatever. Yeah.

That sounds silly. That was just a fun. Whatever. I'm having fun. I'm allowed. Eliana said so. Even if she doesn't like my fun. Luan says, this is only a story and you must put your dreams aside or they will break your heart

oh that's like us and this story yeah breaking our hearts my god my god we talked about this i think in much more depth especially with brienne's storyline and probably also sansa's but the idea of the dreams and the songs on one, it's about like lower your expectations. Life's not like that. But then it's also like when you find out about these dreams and what's behind them, right? They really break your heart. Like for example, it turns out this dream,

not having this dream come true would not break your heart, but this dream actually would break your heart because it means that's it. Anyways. Absolutely. That's, it's weird. Yeah, it's like one of those Catch-22 double-edged Polacks.

Double-edged. Right, though, but it is double-edged. It's interesting because everything Lewin says in this chapter is almost all true. And then he's like, anyways, none of it's true. And then it's like, wait, but what if all of it's true uh instead brand gives his latest dream a crow flying to his chamber with three eyes taking him to find his father who was in the crypts and it was very sad and he remembers it was something to do about john i think wait a second what could it have to do about john bran i'm like this is crazy because this is before he's

fully developed and before he's doing seer things and he knows he doesn't know but it's another repressed little thought in his head ned told him in his dream is this ned's consciousness is he getting a memory from ned is he connecting to ned's memories what is he doing this is actually kind of insane when you read it he was literally being told about john but can't remember understand what what i couldn't tell like is it, was he talking to Ned in it and Ned was telling him? Or is it like a, you know, like an empath thing? Like they're kind of like melding, right? And then he can feel like his dad is sad about Jon, right?

And feeling the thing, you know? Especially that it was in the crypts though, which is such a linked place for them. I mean, that's their entire, the crypt crypts are the starks and here he is soon looking at all these starks right when they go there even his conscience and his soul that's where it would return to yeah his consciousness and his soul would return to the crypts there's something that line just is something that i think i'm sure it stood out before to me but that this time around i'm like oh yeah it's like one of those places right especially there maybe it's one of those

places where like the barrier between the worlds or like the living and the dead is much thinner or something because like we've seen the very near prologue like after he dies he goes into the earth then comes back out before like going back into uh one of the wolves and so maybe like this is one of those places where yeah souls go but also i mean it's fine it's fine if his bones never reach winterfell right yeah he's there anyways already well yeah because winterfell's not just like it's not just a place well i'm just like it's not just physically a. I'm just like, who cares if we never find his bones? It's not just physically a place. I'm joking. I hope we find Ned's bones.

It's important. I hope we find his bones. But I mean, as you and I have talked about, that is like, it's for the humans that are alive that need those more than he does. That is true. Ugh. Sorry. Ugh.

Death is sad. Okay. Yeah, death is real sad. We're real into death these days. So you guys should check out our grief episode on A Song of Ice and Fire on Patreon. Because that is just... You want to hear us just cackle in a really low voice about death? Very seriously, though, for like two hours, you should.

It's a good October Halloween episode. A real scream. Well, kind of. So this dream was more disturbing than most of the other dreams, but Luin only half listens. Bran can tell. Bran tells him that Hodor won't go into the crypts, that he was afraid of the dark, even with a torch.

I'm like, hmm. Bran had always been frustrated, and he's wanting to give him a swat in the head, like old Nan is always doing. Concerned face. Oh, Bran, do not do that. It is not right to

hit Hodor in the head. You should not. Well, there you go. Another instance of him kind of violating Hodor's personal boundaries and consent because he doesn't get any of those things. He just doesn't understand them. Well,

Lewin has to remind him like, he's like, Hodor's not an animal. He's a man, right? Like he says to him, he's a man. Yeah,

absolutely. Hard to remind him sometimes. And that line starts to get blurrier for him on people and animals. Oh, that's true. I have to say it's called clout. You want to clout him, Fran, because I have red Dunkin' Egg. Oh, that's true. it's in a chapter for aria when she is posing as airy i want to say as a boy so very egg-like when she's basically egg in the riverlands so lewin tries to understand why bran would try to go to the crypts and britt is frustrated trying to explain like i'm trying to go to find father and lewin tells him like you need to chill that one day eddard will be stone, like his forefathers, or I don't know,

his wife. But for now, he's in King's Landing. Brynn says that no, he was there last night, and I talked to him, and Luin calls him stubborn, offering, you know what, fine, we'll go down to see if it's true. But Hodor still refuses to go. The steps are too narrow also for Dancer, the horse. So Luin just summons Osha, who is tall, tough, and uncomplaining, and able to take him down. And I'm like, what is up with the crypts and Hodor? I don't think it's just the darkness. I'm wondering, is the door here? I don't know. Oh, that's interesting. I really think that the door will be at the cave, but it would be maybe more meaningful if it could be the crypts, if Hodor could protect them at the crypts. And horrifyingly bad.

Like, it would also hurt me. Hodorifyingly bad. Oh my god. I probably have, like, TV brain rot, though, you know, that I just think it'll be beyond the wall. I hope it can be at winterfell so we could at least die at winterfell but there's ghosts in there i mean that's the other side of it there's definitely spirits down in those crypts it'd be interesting if hodor is i don't know much more spiritually attuned to so they go. Summer follows behind and abandons the bone that he was eating.

Osha is still wearing the little shackles, but they've struck the chains off to show that she's still in altitude, but you know, for her good behavior. So Lewin carries the torch and Bran remembers another time when he was younger and when he would play with his sisters and Rob and John down in the vault. And you know, this is a thing that happens like i think i did i share the the story here about the time that i was at a wedding i was playing along the walls of this church or whatever and then someone comes over like i don't think you want to play on those that these are there are dead bodies in that wall like it's like it was a crypt here or whatever and i was like oh oh god anyways it happens so there's chain the the whole thing with osha though right it's interesting that her movement isn't really impaired anymore

right because they just kept the shackle on as a symbol of her still being in servitude to winterfell and she kind of has others not to trust her yeah she's like in this space where I mean if Osha really wanted I think she could get away she could like escape and get her freedom absolutely and we see her being very capable in clash but you have that and you have these like that idea of chains and servitude right and and the maesters but also the kind of servitude where it's not as evident in that same way for example things like the king's guard right or or the knight's watch and it's really something to think about um i'll come back to it in a bit with maester luin though it's kind of sad because also it's like at this time right now with how serious everything is

luin is like very skeptical as we know of magic. And so she's obviously not playing to his good side by doing all the magic talking she does in this chapter, but she's telling him what she thinks is the truth. And I think that's more important. No, they shouldn't have tried to, you know,

murder Bran, but you can see they're running from fucking zombies. So I'm kind of thinking they're in a different frame of mind than the little prince Lordling and his maester from Winterfell. Okay, they have a very different reason for what they're doing. And I don't know. I'm like, Osha just seems like she proved herself by now. Yeah, and I think that's- I get it.

I'm more forgiving, maybe the most. I get it. I think that they do think that. But yeah, because like she she basically it's just like a symbol right because she's strong enough to walk around with it but agreed that she i guess there's also like the aspect of this is kind of like a controversial take and i'm not saying that it's right but it's like does her having the symbol of servitude? Or is it meant to be a shield for her being of the free folk south of the wall? She's sworn to Winterfell, right?

Those kinds of things. Yeah, and it also protects her in that they know that she's a Stark prisoner. Yeah, therefore she's not open for anyone to execute. Yeah, we see throughout the next handfuls of chapters, and especially in clash how important it becomes who has you prisoner yeah you could be treated very different as a hostage if you are in hostage of ramsey bolton for example no i should say or you know me i'm out here propaganda with the boltons you know ramsey is a much different person to hold you hostage than say cersei in many ways is a different person and then say theon with brianne and you

know there's just different different situations yeah but yeah that's interesting with cersei and because sanza doesn't really wear any markers of being a prisoner but she is one in a way though i mean dresses the the dress she gets in storm of swords is so exciting because she hadn't had a new dress in so long and she obviously doesn't have her own money in her own hand first of all so she's not going to be able to go buy her own dress but cersei still has to clothe her as she complains about in a feast for crows right when she's like i fed her i clothed her but sans like, I haven't had new clothes in like two years and my boobs are getting big and it really

sucks. And then she's like, wow, I love this new dress, and she really looks at it and she's like, oh god, I hate this new dress. Talk about a real trapping of power. Well, the scene they're at is grim. Osha says so, looking at these statues. Summer bears

his teeth and his eyes glow golden they were the kings in the north for thousands of year hard men for a hard time come the vault is cavernous according to john holds more caverns beneath where other kings were laid to rest lewin tells brand to give osha his own version of the history. And so Bran just like goes and he recites a shit ton of the kings, just like he was taught. For example, Jon Stark drove sea raiders off in the east, building a castle at White Harbor. His son, Rickard Stark, not that Rickard, who took the neck from the Marsh King, marrying his daughter. There's Theon Stark, the hungry wolf who was always at war. Sounds familiar.

Another is Brandon, with a dreamy face called the Shipwright, who tried to sail west across the Sunset Sea but was never seen again. Dreamy. Not unlike Alyssa Farman or who knows. His son was Brandon the Burner, torching his father's ships in grief. Roderick Stark won Bear Island in a wrestling match and gave it to the Mormonts, and Torrin Stark was the king who knelt, the last king in the North. Who did Roderick win it from?

Isn't that interesting? From bears? I don't know. I hope so. I don't know i hope so i don't know i just realized i've never i've never like considered who did he win that from we just don't know but i would love to i don't think we know i'm gonna look while you read the next part though let me have cregan stark who fought with prince amon the dragon knight and called him a great foe. I don't think that's the only thing Cregan's known for. George obviously hadn't fleshed this out. Yeah, he didn't. He didn't. Bran gets towards the end now. Actually, I don't even know if that timing makes sense now that I

think about it. Must be a different Cregan, right? Bran gets towards the end now and sadness creeps over him as he points out Lord Rickard, who's beheaded by the Mad King and his daughter, Liana, and his daughter, Brandon. They weren't supposed to have statues. It's only for the lords and the kings, but his father loved them so much, he did it anyway. I will tell you, there is actually a very crazy history for Bear Island, and it is split between the Iron men and north men it's been

disputed between the two for years which is what we get a lot of as we talked about in asha chapters back and forth with her and aliceane mormont thousands of years ago house woodfoot ruled it before the ironborn game and the iron men i know right oh my The Iron Men take it, and then it becomes a reaving base for Ravos Hoare, the son of Herig Hoare, the king of the Iron Islands. Then Theon Stark drives them, slaying Ravos. Then King Loren Greyjoy retakes

it, but it is lost to them after the old kraken's death, and that's when King Roderick Stark is said to have won it in a wrestling match. So that one scholars are skeptical of we find out in uh in the world of ice and fire actually they say scholars are skeptical of this story and this would have occurred like well and that's the thing it must have been some northmen now this would have occurred a century after gerald lannister the king of the rock

raided the iron islands. Okay, interesting. Then it goes, it goes on and on from there, obviously. Alyssa Farman actually sailed there by the age of 20. Interesting. Yeah, I'm just like, well, as you said, right, it was lost to the Krakens. And so there's like a gap. Who was he wrestling? Anyway. Well, and the historians saying like,

but historians debate that is interesting to me too. What does that mean? I mean, it makes sense, right? Like there's a lot of, obviously like that seems a little silly that he won a whole ass island in a wrestling match, right? That's something for the tales, but it seems like a better way to do things, honestly,

in terms of let's send one person out and figure it out that way anyway this and ladies with swords and lakes my friend absolutely why don't we just do that but i don't know basically all of this is just world building and exposition very fun very exciting great job george we live in a world you made a society i also think it's funny oh she's so polite she's so nice you know she's just like okay sure yeah fine i'll listen to the whole family history but i mean maybe it's interesting what else are people gonna do right they don't got cell phones they don't got television and they have to talk yeah they have to like actually talk to each other it's kind of

bullshit and but you know it's kind of in a way sweet right like they share a lot of this about themselves and then their family the chapter is about sharing stories share and sharing your histories right your culture with one another in a way and so it's kind of beautiful because when it comes to the children of the forest as we find later on and those stories behind it, and the first men, Osha's stories make it clear that it is a shared history between their people, both north of the wall and here at Winterfell.

Yeah, I'd love that, I mean, Bran's arc becomes about stories. Yeah. Right? Who has the best story? Oh my god. I was talking about a storm of swords and a clash of kings with the stories from the reeds and the stories that he learns as he goes north and the stories he gets for the three eyed crow and all these stories that culminate for him to help, you know, keep it alive. Keep magic alive.

Yeah, I believe in Bran fairies. But yeah, you could just talk about season eight if you want to, Eliana. Sure, why not? You just. So Osha says, liana's pretty and bran explains she was supposed to marry robert but rhaegar carried her off you know the most just chipper little i'm a british lad voice is what i think of in my head maybe it's a little you know please can i have another but robert fought a war to win her back he killed rhaegar on the trident with his hammer but lyanna died and he never got her back at all a sad tale said osha but those empty holes are sadder that's so true osha bestie i love the

language surrounding lyanna always in a game of thr. There's so much Liana exposition. There's so much R plus L equals J exposition in this fucking book. Every time I read it, I find more. This chapter alone, there's tons that comes up, right? He was sad about Jon, right? What does it mean? Later in A Storm of Swords, of course,

we'll get that's a sadder story about her just a chapter or two ago or chapter two just a handful or seven of chapters ago we get ned and aria where he tells her that she was beautiful willful dead before her time and of course the last uttered chapter that we kind of glossed over in the lightning round uttered 15 we have this bit ned stark reached out his hand to grasp the flowery crown, but beneath the pale blue petals the thorns lay hidden. He felt them clawing at his skin.

Sharp and cruel, saw the slow trickle of blood run down his fingers and woke, trembling in the dark. Promise me, Ned, his sister had whispered from her bed of blood. She had loved the scent of winter roses. God save me, Ned we wept i'm going mad it makes sense that honestly that those seeds that were just laid for him seeing his father in the crypt and his father saying something and all these repressed memories that he's dealing with now right from jamie lannister to whatever his dad said.

It makes sense that some of these reveals will come through Bran's plot when he's very connected through the Weirwood and maybe more receptive. And maybe in the Winds of Winter, right? Those beginning chapters, especially in this book, are so heavily entwined with Jon and some of the Tyrion stuff. Yeah, and I think part of it is like is like obviously it makes sense to set up so much of that reygar and liana stuff and in this book not only is it like because so much of it is in by virtue of ned being the only one who knows and it being there but how it weaves through brands it it's because it was supposed to be a trilogy and it makes sense to have yes yes but like literally from like a structural standpoint um it makes a lot of sense i think there's so much to take out of this book for how simple it can be and i don't mean that in

a cruel way i mean it in like it's so funny because its themes are so overarching and big and they encompass so much of the story going forward like this book has such crucial themes but also it's so every chapter is so skinny in my opinion like this book has such crucial themes but also it's so every chapter is so skinny in my opinion like this book is such a breeze to get through i'm having a great time that we are covering this mostly during our show season so yeah i've enjoyed a game of thrones again i missed it every time we go back to a game of thrones i feel young again i'm like oh the times were simpler themes were louder things were shorter so osha of course is pointing at lord eddard's tomb which is where bran had seen ned in his dream and the hair on the back

of his neck stands up and lewin steps towards the open sepulcher and shows him that no one is here, and that Ned won't be either for many a year. True. He says, Not wrong. He says, dreams are only dreams, child. But, as he says this, Outsprings Shaggy Dog, with his crazy green eyes, snarling, and Lewin,

throws his torch in the air, which flies off of Brandon's statue. It turns out that dreams are not only just dreams. I just want to make sure we're all aligned. And Shaggy Dog especially is like, how dare you? How dare you say that, Luan? He struggles to get Shaggy off of him, and Bran calls Summer to help. Summer rolls into Shaggy

and they're fighting, and Osha props Bran against Lord Rickard's statue while she goes to help the maester. the light of the guttering torch shadow wolves 20 feet tall fought on the wall and roof i love this because it's our first stark shadow on the wall right shadow on the wall shadows can kill and oft times a very small man can cast a very large shadow very interesting very interesting another thing like now that you pointed that out it reminded me and oft times a very small man can cast a very large shadow. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Very interesting.

Very interesting. Another thing, like now that you pointed that out, it reminded me of the shadows dancing in Danny's tent in a few moments, which I always, I was like, oh, is that like about, you know, because there's like a man and like the fire and stuff. And I was like, oh, is that about Brandon and Rickard also? I don't know but um probably not but it still reminds me of those shadows dancing in danny's tent very soon oh that's awful actually that you could say that because the wolves inflamed oh you're

horrible you're a bad person you're a mean person well in the tent it's yeah like because like in the tent she's taking down the veil right between the the worlds of the living and the dead right in order to kind of bring someone back to life so i think that there's i mean it's possible that like those are the ghosts right dancing in the tent and that's what we're told but we don't know who's ghosts like who was wrestled i don't know well and then shadow wolves wolves here that are engulfed with flame below them like brandon and rickard too oh and very sad 20 that's oh wait no that's 20 feet tall sorry not 20 good shadows i mean i was like maybe i was like 20 good wolves i was there already because i was like because you know george has that comment of like you don't hang a wolf pack

on the wall lowercase w right in reference to chekhov's, you don't hang a wolf pack on the wall, lowercase w, right? In reference to Chekhov's gun and Chekhov's wolf pack. It's like, maybe Nymeria is running around with 20 good wolves. I don't think so. I feel like you could see, well, I feel like if we get the gang back together again, you know, for the old long night, shadow wolves fighting on the wall and roof in the light of the guttering torch that's not too far off if we've got a couple wolves left right you got ghost maybe summer maybe numeria yeah he's like a white shadow isn't he isn't he described as a white shadow yeah a lot he is

yeah that's that's gotta meet something mean something fought on the wall anyways yeah i don't know there might be more than 20 wolves, though, in Nymeria. I bet there's, like, way more than that. Or I hope so. Give us, like, give us... Give us the enormous wolf pack, George. Anyways. Because you know what? Because you know what?

Because you know what? The wolves will come again. Yeah. I dreamt it. I fucking dreamt it because dreams are real. Dreams are real. Dreams are real. Dreams are real.

Dreams are so fucking real bro i'm so sick of us why are we this way dreams are so real rick and calls to shaggy standing in the mouth of their father's tomb and warns lewin to leave father be brand explains to him that father wasn't there but Rickon declares as he's crying like he is he is I saw him in my dream last night and then there's like him crying even more with he's coming home now like he promised he's coming home

oh Rickon you emotional little babby yeah Ned's gotta stop making promises because you know promise me promise me he promise me. He promised, really stood out. I'm like, of course he did.

That's what Ned does. He makes promises. It's also interesting. Like, do you, I mean, Shaggy knows because Shaggy knows that Rickon had the same dream as Bran because Shaggy probably somehow was connected through the mind thing. The mind schism of the wolves. They do have one. They're partners. Yeah.

They have a mind-brain connection. Obviously, Shaggy is like, I have to protect this to keep it safe so that Ned can return. And again, I don't think it's just bones returning. I think Shaggy is also warding off so that his spirit can safely return to its resting place because he has that connection.

Shaggy Dog also, whether or not they understand it because babby but like yeah no they have it absolutely absolutely that's totally a thing i like that idea i haven't thought about like shaggy is protecting this place for the soul to return to it's really interesting and like i don't I kind of wonder, it's kind of implied, right, that we've discussed Rob was likely a pretty skilled skin changer or Borg, right? We see John is one, obviously. And the brand's got some extra things on going on there too. And I wonder, did Rick and like, did the three-eyed crow be like, uh, this is interesting. Maybe this child who has a strong bond, right, with the wolf, like, I wonder, like, is it easier or something with the younger they are when they're children, because they have

less of those, you know, we were talking about barriers and veils a lot, right? Like, the less of the sense of self and can therefore, like, be tapped into early when it comes to greenseeing, but also they were, were they like, I don't know rickon's just a little too young he doesn't have enough of a sense of self and like structure for him to be the next chosen one yeah he's not even there yet hmm it's interesting i wonder if he'll get a chance to be expanding that off the page when we meet him with davos oh Yeah, it's really interesting because I think he'll have Robb Stark plot again in that way. Maybe just that he has a better connection with his wolf

because he's gone to this ancient kind of isle with these people who understand and believe in blood sacrifice and to an extent and certain things happening there. Well, very much becoming one with other flushes you know including each other yeah maybe yeah and also the connection to nature and everything going on there

in the earth and also i we've discussed this a lot before right with cannibalism and the idea of like the beliefs for people who have cannibalistic societies and use it as a more ritual thing like the dead become a part of you like are they maybe a little bit more better at like communing with the dead? Again, speaking about the two worlds. I really like what you are saying about that kind of spiritual plane, the veil between the worlds

that they're really existing on right now and that they're able to access it. I think the very mere chapter is a strong proponent for that and reapplying it here after reading it so recently that is kind of why we put them next to one another i knew we'd come up with some interesting parallels in the long run but this is really bringing a lot of it out yeah sometimes our orders make sense i mean they always do but sometimes they're just i think they do always it's right there it's right there

but sometimes they're just i think they do always it's right there it's right there bran sees that lewin is uncertain his arm is dripping blood and lewin asks for the torch and says that beast is supposed to be chained up and rick and says i let him lose he doesn't like chains rick and says He pets Shaggy and Shaggy. Okay, so the way it reads to me is that Shaggy is licking Ricken's fingers. But I've seen other people discuss that it could be taken another way. Because he says Ricken patted Shaggy dog's muzzle damp with blood. He licked at his fingers. What do you mean?

And with, like, some people, I take it as Shaggy Dog was licking Rickon's fingers, like dogs do, and that Shaggy was licking the blood off his hands. And you're saying some people read it as Rickon licking his own fingers. That's funny, because I was like, oh, I thought this was going to be a joke about Shaggy licking his wolf fingers. Kind of like in the hot dog fingers and everything. Oh my god. Anyways. I mean, we see Grey Wind likes fingers. I think it is Shaggy licking, I mean, all dogs, right?

All dogs, even your cats sometimes, you know the thing they love it good enough with something on them they will lick them and blood is delicious so i but other people thought rickin was licking his own fingers which i was like hmm now that said either way this has like intense cannibalism imagery like of the the blood and the rickin totally being sure rick is so desensitized he's like cool yeah yeah shaggy and rubs his muzzle and then shaggy licks his hands or whatever but interesting interesting things to consider well that is perception yeah you were saying of where rick and ends up not to be a nerd but like the way it's so it's like rick and padded shaggy dog's muzzle damp with blood i let him loose he doesn't like chains

he licked at his fingers it it could be rickon licking at his fingers now that i read it again i think yeah because of the rickon to he pipeline here but i do think it's shaggy dog but this isn't the only time like i think especially in a game of thrones but it does happen in some of the other books like george does have some of his hanging pronouns and things do get very murky like there have been times even when i've been like who's saying this like who's doing this and i ask you and you're like i think it's this but it like does get confusing yeah yeah it's one of those it's definitely one of those it's hard to keep things like you know i mean he's it's like a bazillion pages and words i understand that you know he's gonna slip and

maybe people aren't supposed to be doing podcasts about reading this book 20 times. I don't know. Whatever. Probably not. Probably not. Well, weigh in. Let me know what you all at home are thinking if you think that Rickon is licking his own bloody fingers or Shaggy. I think it's very more logical, much more way logic, very logic.

Wow. Going on to have Shaggy Dog do it but maybe rickens into that who knows he's into lewin's blood i want chicken fingers now um i'm hungry stop i know let's move let's move we gotta eat come on i gotta eat all right so bran tries to get r Rickon and Shaggydog to walk with him, but Rickon is like, no, I'm waiting for our father. Bran says, okay, you know what? Let's wait together, us and the wolves. And Luin says, no, no, no. Shaggy's just too wild to be loose. And that he's merely the third person who's been savaged by Shaggydog, which I'm like, Luin kind of has a point, but also it's, there's no way they're going to get right into Acquia so we have this

this whole thing where the truth is hard but the wolf has to be chained or he hesitated or killed Bran thought but what he said was he was not made for chains we will wait in your tower

all of us what a king, King king bran wow good for him um it reminds me so i've been thinking about it the past couple weeks of course denarius right chaining her dragons and there's that line in a dance with dragons i am the blood of the dragon she told the grass aloud once the grass whispered back until you chained your dragons in the dark bran already is imprisoned and chained in his own body and to an extent obviously summer is part of him and he is part of summer and he can walk through summer but he doesn't quite know how yet and chaining them i think also probably would restrain the power right the

the connection and the bond between them not unlike how danny kind of is feeling by chaining her own dragons in that part of herself obviously glossing over the obvious like oh i'm a prisoner of myself chains motif going on in this chapter but yeah yeah but i i do like what you're saying right the whole i'm chasing like how danny is, right? The whole chain singing, like how Danny insists, right, that a dragon is not a slave, right? We see that especially in the third book when she's like, you gotta unchain, brand unchained, unleash the D. But yeah, like there's definitely something there.

And we see in the past few chapters, he's felt chained not even just by like his body, but by other people telling him what he can and cannot do with it lewin argues but osha grins and says that you know what he's the lordling and she scoops bran up and they head toward the maester's tower bran asks if rickon will come and rickon says only if shaggy will so up they all go good news good news dire wolves are not like cows they're into stairs oh that's true cows don't do stairs huh not down usually so again that as we've been talking about with maesters and binding right maester lewin does wear chains around his neck as

we see this is a source of much trauma for sam but they are supposed to serve it's something that's discussed a lot with book five and lewin you know he's part of the people who argued like yeah osha should have a little bit more freedom but he himself right also kind of only has the illusion of freedom he has to listen to what a fucking little kid says it's a very clever move by osha especially as they have kind of some fighting tensions. And it's a very clever way for her to be like, hmm, interesting. Tell us about your anti-magic policies, Luin. I win. Well, I think part of it is like just because like Luin is so hurt, remember, he really wanted magic to be real. And then he's like no magic's not real i know it's not big sad i bet he would have been

super jazzed if it were real i would love i if only lewin was wasn't gone i would love a story or a pov giving info about the time that he got so disillusioned by magic when they beat it out of him at the citadel i gotta know i would love to know oh lewin i love lewin it's really interesting because he's actually learned he's earned his valyrian steel link he's one of the few that have so he passed that means that he actually passed yeah yeah he passed because he loved magic enough that he wanted to give it a try. And then it was like... That's really interesting to have that, because that's a lot to go through to get that. He's just like us for real for real, you know? Big nerd.

And part of what makes that clear is his apartment, which is cluttered and full of books, chairs, candle stubs, jars, star charts, shadow maps, inks, quills, paper. paper all of it punctuated this is not like me i'm sorry all of it is punctuated by raven droppings as they go i do not keep like bird shit all over that's not like me at all but all of the the papers and the books everywhere i was like is this like philip pullman's office he's like if there's a surface i have to put something on it i'm not over it i'm not over it. I'm not over it. Yeah, he's kind of, I'm very cluttered. So I really respect that about him.

I work best in my own creative cluttered environment. But I do wonder if it's a reference to T.H. White's Merlin, because his apartments are always a clutter with like magic-y scrolls and quills. And yeah, potions. Yeah. Probably. Yeah, there's a lot of uh once in future king references going on i don't know what that it's about but yes yes i know that that's a big

influence though on george so yeah the once in future king you should read some th white i think you might like it should yeah osha has a lot of practical skills for example she helps wash and bandage luin's arm for him and luin tells them that while they're you know identical wolf dreams of their father do seem very related it must be impossible for them to be you just like both really miss your father and that's coming through in your dreams he says that rickon is just too understand too young to understand it but rickon says to finally, I'm four now, which shows us a little bit of, that's just, you know, the exposition, passage of time going on in this story. But he says that Bran is old enough to know that dreams are only dreams.

Osha argues, well, some are, some aren't, that the children of the forest could tell you a thing or two about dreaming. Luin says that they live only in the dreams, whoa, commanding osha to wrap the bandage up now and bran says that old nan told him the children knew the songs of the trees that they could fly like birds and swim like fish and speak to animals that they made music so beautiful it made you cry just to hear it kind of like rhaegar. Oh, yeah. The wolfmaid sniffling. I'm curious if George et al. Was thinking of Mildred D. Taylor's novellas.

Which are like a trilogy of novellas, actually. From 1975 about the Logan family. In particular, The Song of the Trees. I want to say I read this back in like... 1975? Yeah, basically. Back 1975 middle school or something yeah basically uh back in middle school maybe or i think it was middle school but basically it follows a family who has trees growing on their land and the kids kind of talk about these trees being the magic of

their childhood basically and that the trees used to sing in the background when they played but it turns out their family had kind of fallen on some tough times and had to i mean there's a lot of good themes of like racial inequalities going on and fiscally like innocence innocence lost and some crazy tensions but the man is basically taking their trees down and cutting them down the parents are holding like this a secret like the family from the kids has been holding it a secret that they're like, no, you can't go out there because the men are cutting down the trees, but they're, they have to like to feed the family. So it's this great themes of innocence, themes of loss, blah, blah, blah, blah. The kids end up learning a lot of horrible, like hard way lessons because they like try to fight the men that are

cutting the trees on their lot. And there's a bunch of horrible sad parts, but there's this little passage that it makes me think of. In the cold of winter, when the ground lay frozen, they had sung their frosty ballads of years gone by, or on a muggy, sweat-drenched day, their leaves had rippled softly, lazily, like restless green fingers strumming at a guitar, echoing their epic tales. But now, they would sing no more.

They lay forever silent on the ground. Those trees that remained standing were like defeated warriors mourning their fallen dead, but they, too, would fall, for the white Xs had been placed on nearly every one. Oh, dear, dear trees, I cried as the gray light of the rising sun fell in ghostly shadows over the land. The tears rolled hot down my cheeks. Mama held me close, and when I felt her body tremble, I knew she was crying too. Wow. Right? Emotional shit and beautiful.

Really beautiful. It's only like 12 pages. You should read it. It's a great novella. Yeah, it's very... It's like three novellas. I guess I'll just read it it but also is it like so is it a fantasy or is this like about the lumber business basically the ladder it's the ladder it's that children seeing things as fan or like how children visualizing it

is fantasy because it's kind of told from the children's lens, but the real adult things are happening around. And us reading it, who may or may not be adults, have to translate, oh, because this is capitalism in real life and their home is being destroyed and taken from them and they're being taken from their beautiful land that they love so much in order to supply that they have to stay alive somehow. So, you know, yeah. Absolutely.

Depressing. Yeah, I kind of wonder there's might be something to it there because george obviously like does think about these things right yeah i mean i feel like george has read more books than i have to be quite honest so he's had he's had time he's had a head start yeah yeah he has a head start but it does make me think of that with the trees all being cut down and the magic being taken away and the children's story all being cut down and the magic being taken away and the children's story yeah well lewin tells bran that they used to know this magic yes that magic used to be full in the trees for the children he gives bran a lesson though and says that the man who trusts in spells is dueling with a glass

sword as they did he shows him obsidian arrowheads, which Osha names as dragonglass. Luin says they were forged in the fires of the gods below the earth and the children of the forest used to hunt with them. The children worked no metal. In place of mail, they wore long shirts of woven leaves and bound their legs in bark, so they seemed to melt into the wood. place of swords they carried blades of obsidian and still do osha says it is interesting like i i still like don't think it's gonna go exactly how it went in the show when it comes to the creation of the others and obsidian but like obviously you're seeing some like little things they're showing how or why obsidian would be significant to the others but i don't know just because it means that they were using them before though likely they weren't using them

as swords but as knives i don't know that like obsidian has enough integrity right or structural integrity um which is why you shouldn't trust in it with and that's used as this metaphor here but probably still like as knives and arrowheads as we see and it's interesting that brand takes one but um i wonder what happens with that and yeah we don't get that revealed till book three the others though they don't actually appear in westeros as far far as we know, from what we know of the histories, which could, of course, be wrong, until thousands of years after the pact between the Children of the Forest and the First Men is signed, allegedly, according to the timelines that we have in those. But Sam has also pointed out a lot of these timings are wrong. I don't know. I don't know.

Yeah, it's interesting. If you want to understand more about how these timelines of history are wrong, you should watch The Rings of Power because they take an entire history written out and condense it to a couple thousand years, I hear. So I don't know. I don't really actually care personally.

I just know that's kind of the same thing, right? Like that's if you wanted to understand that the rings of power did that they condensed like 1000s of years into a handful. And they were like, here you go, this is what happened in all of time. And now here we are the end. And that's kind of what these histories read like. And yeah, there's something interesting about how and when that happened. And I mean, how long has the world been happening? That's, we just don't know. What's true? What's not? Histories are passed down.

I mean, they become fables. They become metaphors. They become similes. Yeah. At least we have carbon dating nowadays. Hallelujah. Someone in a thousand years when the world is just a magma fireball floating through space is gonna somehow find nothing yeah probably maybe it'll be stored in the cloud

i've worried about that you know like sorry and i'm gonna go on my mini tiered so everyone knows animation is important art is important okay and it just sucks that like entire like stories and shows can just be wiped out because they're like oh no one can like watch this show anymore because uh of this merger and it's a tax write-off i'm like what the fuck so fragile anyway bran holds the arrow heads asking if he can keep one rickon wants four, because he's four, so Luwin makes him count them out to do so. Bran asks Luwin to tell him about the children, saying it's important. So Luwin does. They were people of the Dawn Age, before kings and kingdoms, cities, holdfasts, and markets.

Dark, beautiful, small, no taller than children, they lived in the woods, caves, crannogs, and treetowns, hunting together with weirwood bows and flying snares. They worshipped the gods of the forest, the streams, the stone, the old gods with their names a secret. They named their wise men greenseers and carved faces in the weirwoods to keep watch on the wood. No one knows how long they ruled or when they came, but 12,000 years ago, the first men appeared with bronze swords and great shields on horse. Horses had never been seen in Westeros before. the celtics and then like the i don't know the other invasions like normans and uh hold on you know the other like germanic tribes and like the indigenous britons etc right that's obviously something that's like being played with here with like the children then the first and the dornish i also think though like we can see that george is pulling a little bit he likes to mishmash things

from all over the world, right? Like the whole idea that horses have never been seen in Westeros is very much channeling that idea of European colonizers coming to the new world, et cetera. And like, especially the conquistadors and colonization, for example, like like so allegedly and again this is this history history is murky in real life as well right um and the carbon dating is actually helping us try to unravel that a bit more but horses did used to exist in north america like thousands tens of

thousands of years ago then apparently there was allegedly a huge extinction event that got rid of like a lot of the megafauna including like horses and then allegedly horses returned when the spaniards the spanish came back but there's also some research that is showing now that it's possible that you know like when when the horses return they're actually apparently like native to this area or whatever like but apparently when the carbon dating of things is showing that maybe indigenous people actually had a long history with horses even before the europeans showed up and that they kind of maybe rewrote some of that history and like

made it seem like they brought horses over due to horses being seen as a status symbol among the Spaniards but like I don't know yet right I haven't seen that like from many sources but of course history changes all the time like our understanding of things change all the time like how we now know that dinosaurs were feathered right like and that's becoming much more common knowledge now so um yeah thought that was interesting and also horses i know you love to speak of these horses i didn't know all of that as far as the uh that they first returned with the spanish allegedly that's interesting and how how historians write you know the the victors that get to write it it also those left alive i mean yeah because like obviously it gives them a huge advantage right like

on a militaristic level yeah guns probably help yeah guns well i mean guns make it so much easier for there to be a winner and a loser don don't they? Mm-hmm. Really takes the humanity out when you have a click of a button. Literally, though. Literally. The first men carved out farms and hold fasts, cutting down the weirwoods, giving them to the fire. And so the children went to war, using dark

magic to make the seas rise and wipe away the land, shattering the arm of Dorne. But it was too late to close the door. Eliana. Eliana. When I read this, when I read this this week, I need you to know that I had the biggest,

like my brain came out of my head and was like, yeah. We've talked a little bit about Manu. He was here last week. He's wonderful. Manu friend. And I had a blast with Manu last week talking Bran. I mean, we wouldn't

shut up. It was a great episode. We could have talked for like eight hours. Knowing us, we could have talked for eight hours about it. But Manu has the theory that because of A, the others and B, you know, meta reasons, Bran will bring the hammer of the waters down on the neck

and separate the north from the south. Here, the idea of shattering the arm of Dorne was similar, right? It really supports a lot of that. But the language here of it being too late to close the door, that it had been too late to stop them from coming. I'm curious how that will happen. What if Bran does it and it's too late to stop the others? And how does closing the door here figure in, George?

Closing the door. Yeah. Which door? Hodor? Haven't you people ever heard of closing the goddamn door? No. Maybe that's what Hodor's story is about also but like no that does seem really significant for that to like be brought in because earlier on in this chapter you're getting that

stuff about hodor and then in the previous chapter the one right before it right you're getting that i think it's the one right before it where they're talking about hodor's name so i do think just as a lot of the seeds for r plus l equals j is in this book it seems like a lot of the seeds for R plus L equals J is in this book, it seems like a lot of the seeds maybe for Hodor's name. Well, because he had to know by now what he wanted to do with Hodor. Like you said, if you set it up as a trilogy, this is who Bran's companions are going to be. These are the ones that die. Absolutely. I mean, the hero's journey.

Well, he knew that about Hodor from the start because that influenced Hodor's name. So he always knew that whole part. But you were talking about this and the shattering of the arm. That also stood out to me because of them talking about spells being like a glass

sword, right? And what would a glass sword do? Shatter. Oh, yeah. Oh yeah oh man i can't wait to read that come on george come on come on george i can't wait to read this shit i hope you you've written it like me i'm just kidding write it the way you want babe more children than men die during this but the wise of both of the races prevail and finally they come to the god's eye to end the war and forge the pact that's funny they were just talking about simon star eyes too earlier yeah so the first men are given the coastlands the high plains the bright meadows

the mountains and the bogs which is like a lot of stuff and then the deep woods were forever the children of the forces and no further weirwoods would be felt after this day so the gods might bear witness to the signing every tree on the island was given a face and afterward the sacred order of the green men was formed to keep watch over the isle of faces the pact had began four thousand years of friendship between the first men and the children and ended the dawn age beginning the age of heroes bran interjects saying you said the children are all gone now though and osha's like well yeah here not above the wall though where the children the giants and all of

the other old races joined together there's something about the pact and this is coming because of hot d i've got big hot d brain you guys big house the dragon brain but there's something interesting that this is the pact between them. And then the next pact we hear of is the pact of ice and fire in the dance. And in the Fire and Blood screen adaptation, House of the Dragon, they've included something interesting with George's blessing that he's kind of been talking about since Fire and Blood in some interviews that Agen knew, capital K, knew about the Others, or at least the threat of the Others, or a threat, a wintry threat coming to Westeros. Agen had some sort of idea, and the show has

played with George's blessing on Targaryen heirs passing this down, one by one. So, we didn't really know the scope of this, you know, we don't know when it was lost, this whole entire ordeal, maybe the dance because everyone dies but the show and this is only in the show this is from the behind the scenes interview they've kind of explained they made this part up the show has the prophecy imbued on the cat's paw dagger which is a show only invention but it still makes me wonder kind of about some of the context of jacerys targaryen he's reneara's son so he's jacerys targaryen thank you very much uh jacerys targaryen you know going to cregan stark and their relationship and maybe or maybe not creating a pact of ice and fire

with cregan stark and marrying sarah snow secretly by the Weirwood and all these little thoughts and Rhaegar later taking and stealing Lyanna in the night by Northern tradition, obviously. It makes me wonder, do the Starks then have their own version of what Aegon saw? We know that the Starks have seers in their line. We know that there's magic around the Starks and it makes you wonder why Torrin knelt, right? Did Torrin and Aegon have some sort of understanding because they both knew of the threat that could come that had been handed down centuries to them through prophecy? I don't know. Maybe they both have their own sides of prophecy, and maybe they came together and made that pact of ice and fire.

First then, the children and the first men, but then, later, there's a pact between the Targaryens and Starks. That's very interesting, right? Because he's the only one, not the only one, but he's known as the King who knelt. So, very interesting. And I does feel like the Starks must have their own version of this prophecy or a prophecy of something right maybe like another side oh that was not intentional um but another like a side or piece of it because we see throughout uh the rest of the world of ice and fire right like planetos there's a lot of different versions of like that kind of seems like many versions of the azor ahai last hero prince that was promised prophecy right so but it's interesting that like for the last hero if that's the northern version of it that it's not told as a prophecy but as a story but i don't know they are storytellers as we see yeah look at old nan she's keeping all of this alive yeah old man does not get enough credit

but it could be like is the northern one like also you know how jojen talks about things with like a lot of symbolism, right? Uh, is, is the Northern version a story? The prophecy is a story, but told like through symbols or something. I don't know.

I will, for my last addition to this, this thought, I will say there with the focus on the crypts in this chapter, it makes me think there's more to the crypts than just spirits being there and ghosts like there are secrets there where there are bones there are secrets and you know a lot of the idea they played with in the show which is fun in hot d is the idea of those valyrian glyphs being imbued on the dagger that is kind of cool and i'm not saying that they have something there but they

might have runic you know the bronze runic on the wall saying something who knows i thought there were at least swords right like i thought there were maybe on the swords at yes on the swords that's right rusted but now they're gone so what what does it mean well because they rusted away maybe maybe davos will uh give us some of those runes somehow maybe he will find out what they say or sansa maybe coming up up with like some of the stuff from the royces because they got a bunch of like runes on their armor taking nester down to the crypts or something or bronze yan royce more likely and then together we can study with Sam. Maybe Sam takes a really, really, really fast like crash course in linguistics

because we didn't have our time jump. We need to get those swords back. Actually, that would not be surprising if Sam did, you know, during the original idea of the time skip, study some of those like dead languages. Yeah, and runes because he was looking trying to understand the historical

stuff. Historical pieces at the libraries. I would love that. Read them. I'm looking forward to this, Eliana. I can't wait. I can't wait. I need it. I'm itching. I'm itching. I got the fever.

Uh oh. The winter fever watch out oh god so luin is unhappy with osha's comments telling her she should be dead or in chains and that it is unkind to repay the starks by filling their heads with folly bran is like i don't care where did the children go i need to know more same and rickon adorably is like me too me too so lewin tells them the pact endured through the long night and the birth of the seven kingdoms when the andals came tall fair-haired warriors with steel fire and the seven pointed star but then things changed the wars lasted for hundreds of years but the six southern kings fell to the andals only in the north did the first men endure and the king in the north defended the Boo!

Boo, Andals! Boo! Boo, Andals! It's a fucking Stannis-ass move right there. Boo! It's a fucking Stannis-ass move right there. Boo! I just wanted to say something else about the timing of things and this Once Upon a Time being a trilogy of like, yeah, look, there's so

much stuff about, a lot of the stuff about the Children of the Forest is here. I mean, they're scattered throughout the books, but imagine, it would have been great. It takes, though, from the first book all the way until the fifth book. Till we meet them.'m like dang damn it's really great groundwork but it's also really far apart and you can see what happened there as he began to tell a much bigger story yeah i'll leave this quote.

So the children fled north. Summer began to howl. Maester Luwin broke off, startled. When Shaggydog bounded to his feet and added his voice to his brother's, dread clutched at Bran's heart. It's coming, he whispered with the certainty of despair. He had known it since last night, he realized, since the crow had let him down into the crypts to say farewell. He had known it, but he had not believed. He had wanted Maester Lewin to be right. The crow, he thought, the three-eyed crow. The howling stopped as

suddenly as it had begun. Summer padded across the tower floor to Shaggy Dog and began to lick at a mat of bloody fur on the back of his brother's neck. From the window came a flutter of wings. A raven landed on the gray stone sill, opened its beak, and gave a harsh, raucous rattle of distress. Bricken began to cry. His arrowheads fell from his hand, one by one, and clattered on the floor. Bran pulled him close and hugged him. The raven hops onto Lewyn's arm with dried blood on its wings it seemed it had a difficult journey

he takes the letter from its leg and brand shivers waiting for him to tell them what they already know it is so they say that the blood on the raven's wings comes from a hawk or something but i'm like what if it was a falcon because Because the falcon, like, Jon Arryn's, like, death led to Ned dying. But also, I feel like we probably don't really need that. I think the blood on the wings in and of itself already acts as a symbolism. We don't need the other bird. But it was just a thought. I don't think it's necessary.

It's really not necessary. The blood on the wings does it on its own. There's also something that's very kind of like prey right like he also thinks it might have been an owl and there's something in the bible there's mosaic law where it basically calls owls unclean birds in leviticus i want to say yeah leviticus these are the birds you are to regard as unclean and not eat because they are unclean the eagle the vulture the black vulture the red kite any kind of black kite any kind of raven the horned owl the screech owl the gull and any kind of hawk the little owl the cormorant the great owl the white owl the desert owl owls were unclean

because they are predatory creatures who eat flesh with blood in it it's kind of funny because like a lot of other animals i guess are like that but yeah i guess they just named all the carnivorous birds uh yeah also owls are they do sometimes feel a little they eat like a lot of mice and i just remember you did this right the the thing where you dissect owl pellets in school maybe you don't remember i think you would have remembered if i think you would have remembered if you were given a fluffy piece of like was this like high school uh i know i did it a little bit in elementary school but i might have also done it again in high school but i think you remembered if they gave you a piece of fluffy like owl owl upchuck and there were bones in it i only ever had the frog one and i got out of that shit because i have a very gentle heart so so did the frog probably yeah which i will never know

good day good day uh the other part of these with the owl is also that like their cry is really powerful and it's often seen as like a very lonely hoot like desolation and loneliness yeah which is also kind of sad but which obviously i feel desolate and lonely and these boys do too but something about the the fact that it could be a something preys on its other kind, you know, that that raven almost went down. And, I mean, someone wanted that raven to go down, I bet. Maybe it wasn't an owl, but maybe it was just the prey predator. Whatever. I think being a bird seems pretty dangerous, though.

It's just a dangerous life. If it was a hawk, hawks are often domesticated and could go after other animals you could teach it probably to go after who knows that actually would not be surprising if uh perhaps i don't know i guess it doesn't it doesn't make sense because they do want people knowing yeah because i'm like i guess people do want that then they do want people knowing that Ned died as a traitor, or the Lannisters do, because then it helps put down everything else. They just don't have a

social media post, you know, they can't do that. Oh my god, they don't have a Twitter. Remember when we were all like, is a world war about to start on Twitter? Oh my god. Osha tells Bran that he knows what it is maester lewin looked up at them numbly a small gray man with blood on his sleeve of his gray wool robe and tears in his bright gray eyes

my lords he said to the sons in a voice gone hoarse and shrunken we we shall need to find a stone carver who knew his likeness well. Ugh. I hate that their dreams are right. It's very sad. I'm desolate. I'm lonely. I'm terrifyingly sad. I guess it's good they didn't give us the scene, but you

can imagine like Lewin just suddenly like hunching over and just lewin crying about it then like brandon ricken and everyone's crying and osha's probably like having to be like pat pat to everyone but lewin knew him for so long i mean you're supposed to be reasonable with children right you're supposed to tell them that if you have a child around you right now don't let them hear this you shouldn't we say fuck like every other word but if your kid is next to you earmuffs um like santa's not real like there comes a time when you're just being fucking ridiculous if you're propagating that

to them past a certain age right like you do have to give them the real world like as mad as i am at lewings i'm like dog you've lied to them for an hour because you're like magic's not real here's all the magic your dreams are wrong that's what he thinks the real world is. Yeah, because he's been through it. And he's like, there's no fucking magic for me. But Bran and Rickon right in that moment are like, uh, real sad. But also, I'm sure Bran is like, huh? Two plus two does equal four? Yeah, he's like, I boom suspicious that i would have dreamt this and so did rickon and then this happened right after maybe it means something and it does it does but i don't know i'm just like also sad about lewin right like he's not the one he has to deliver

this news but he's not telling them that their dad died yet like he's not using those words he's saying we need to find a stone carver who knew his likeness well like because he's grieving too and i'm just thinking of like lewin can't even get those words out and he just starts like sobbing too that's what i'm thinking about lewin himself crumpling and being sad because he's had to be strong and parent them in the absence of them and he's had to parent rob and he's had to, like, he's had to really be strong as well and give them support while their parents are gone. And you can parent them.

You can say magic's not real to these weird kids with magic wolves all you want in order to maintain some sort of stasis, right, which is what he's doing. He has to. He has to give them a normal life. But then how do you tell them their dad's dead? You can tell them the children of the forest sing songs all day long. But how do you tell them their dad's dead you could tell them the children of the forest sing songs all day long but how do you tell them your dad's also like he parented ned a bit too if you think about it yeah ned comes back from the war he's still a young man you know like he's like 21 22 probably or around that age and because we know that lewin delivered all of catelyn's children so like

lewin had to help guide ned into leadership too yeah to be the man that he had to suddenly be for winterfell i'm just sad i'm sad again why have why have we watched dad die so many different times i mean it's just like old nan right, Luin has seen generations now of Starks. He was going on his next gen, eventually, was his hope, right? They've had to parent them, and they've been such a big part of them and their culture. Like, old Nan with her stories, and... Yeah. They're losing a part of their family, too, right? Like, they came here in servitude to this family, but at the same time, they became part of this family.

Yeah. They do see Luin as part of the family and he i mean he's out here he's so part of the family that you know caitlin's running around naked in front of him in this very book but everyone has tits you know everyone has titties that's so true and uh i don't have a big point on this i just wanted to like squeeze it in here maybe it'll help us unsad for a sec it actually won't um you know they're talking about we need to find a stone carver who knew his likeness well it's a it's a good reminder of this is a time before more accurate right like portrait paintings and i don't know that takes a lot of talent to have to try to do it from memory. That's it. Yeah, it really does, though. We see they have the miniatures, right? But there's nowhere, like you said, no detail, not real detail. Yeah, that hasn't like come up yet,

really in that movement. And like, and his body's not there, right? Like, it's one thing if the body were there, and you can like, refer to it to a little, little right but you need someone who can hold his memory and create that who's gonna carve that did they even really get it started is my question how much did they get done that's a good question because i actually don't know like does anyone know like did they it might not have even they might not have even been able to get it started i don't know it's done in the show but who the fuck did it we don't know that's really what i was thinking is like who the fuck actually is doing that no one because winterfell goes down yeah theon destabilizes it pretty fast i mean they maybe they were like in the middle of the work right like but yeah theon destabilizes things so fast that I don't know there's no time for grieving for them

no time for anything well I'm very excited to get to the next book because I love A Clash of Kings I am like a huge Clash of Kings pro Clash fan yeah and we get Theon back and some chaos and we start with some magic

and we start with the harvest feast coming up. Oh, God. And, you know, per our schedule, we'll be there right at the right time. Right. We'll be doing some harvest feasting ourselves. So exciting. Good timing on our part.

We did this on purpose. We did not. But maybe we did. You know, dreams are real. Not, but maybe we did. You know, dreams are real. So if you want to keep up with us when all that happens or you have things to say that we'll get to eventually, probably, you can find us on social media at twitter.com slash girlsgonecanon, C-A-N-O-N. Or you can shoot us an email at girlsgonecanon at gmail.com. And if you haven't already, please follow, subscribe to us on your favorite podcast platform, whether that's iTunes, Google Play, Stitcher, Acast, iHeartRadio, Spotify, Audible, and Amazon Podcasts.

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As always, I'm one of your hosts, Chloe. And I have been another one of your hosts, Aliana. We will see you for a clash of kings. Woo! Bye. you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you Thank you.