Girls Gone Canon Cast - ASOIAF Episode 176 — ACOK Bran V

Episode Date: December 9, 2022

Jojen and Bran share their dreams as a nightmarish man named Reek is dragged to Winterfell.  --- Eliana's twitter: https://twitter.com/arhythmetric Eliana's reddit account: https://www.reddit.com/user/glass_table_girl Eliana's blog: https://themanyfacedblog.wordpress.com/ Chloe's twitter: https://twitter.com/liesandarbor Chloe's blog: www.liesandarborgold.com Intro by Anton Langhage

Hello, and welcome to Girls Gone Canon Reads A Song of Ice and Fire, episode 176, Bran 5, in A Clash of Kings. I am one of your hosts, Chloe. And I am another one of your hosts, Eliana. And this week we're shaking things up a little. I'm excited. We're kind of pre-recording an episode for the holiday season, for the holiday cheer. So we're coming to you from the past the future the then the now the truth we want to be really method podcasters for brand chapters absolutely you'll never know when or where or how we're recording but we're recording when are they are yeah who is who are they oh my god the trees they're speaking to me that's uh ready to be done with A Clash of Kings because it's about to get

miserable. I'm ready for A Storm of Swords so we can get out of the misery. But these chapters are really brief and kind of heavy in lore and tense. I don't know. I'm excited to jump in today. Yeah, and we get to see our favorite miserable boy again. Which one? Well, I'm talking about Theon. Jojen Orbran. Oh, Theon. Yeah, also Theon. I'm so excited to see him have the worst reign of Winterfell ever.

Seriously, I was talking to that guy I live with, that roommate of mine, and we were talking about how even Rickon could have run Winterfell better than Theon. Like, Theon poisons his fucking well supply with dead people before he's sieged. Yeah. What's wrong with you, Theon? A lot. You idiot. A lot.

He just, you know, wasn't taught by anyone. He had no mentor figures also, if you think about it, other than, like... Yeah. No, he had none. Ned-ish. I guess, like, the Master of arms taught him to fight maybe you know that gordon ramsay clip where he's like you're what are you an idiot sandwich and he puts his hands on the side of the kid's head when he says it yeah that's how i feel about theon what

are you an idiot sandwich yeah but i love that idiot sandwich truly one of my favorites flavor yeah yeah absolutely well before we get too far into our favorite idiot sandwiches this month's patreon episode bonus episode for our stranger tier and above five dollar and up patrons is tba keep your eyes and ears peeled we should have that announced in the next week for you yeah and. And of course, we have our monthly Discord brunch for our patrons in the ThunderTier and above, $10 and up. And we do have a date for all of you for all of that. It is this month going to be on Sunday, December 18th from 2 to 4 p.m. EST. Yeah, Eliana time. Eliana time.

I'm excited for that maybe we'll do some reindeer games I have a new one we like to play the jackbox games here and there and there's a new game called role models and I played it with some friends this week and it was very fun I might have to test it out soon on the discord

because I think it'll be more fun with more people I only had four people but reindeer games will be happening I am excited a new awakening for Chloe and her Jackbox games. It's Christmas, truly. Ho, ho, ho, ho, ho, ho. And hey, that's not the only Christmas gift we'll be bringing because we are jumping back into His Dark Materials.

We've had a little bit of a break from our His Dark Materials podcasting, but series three is landing in like two days, actually, from when we're recording this. The season will already be going for those in the US on HBO. They are dropping two episodes on, got Mondays? Mondays? Two episodes on Mondays for HBO going forward. I think it'll be an eight episode season and the UK BBC iPlayer will be dropping the whole season December 18th. So it's kind of a slow down, wait a little bit, then hurry up.

But I'm excited to talk through it. Nonetheless, yeah, I think we'll be covering it weekly. One episode a week. We'll hopefully be covering both of the episodes dropped each week in that episode. This is a disclaimer that that can change yeah we reserve that right that's true reserve the right for that to change absolutely absolutely because um you know it is it is the end of the year it's the it's the holiday season please please it's been a hard year. Please. Please. Please.

I was like, what do I say that's witty? And I was like, I don't know. I'll give them the past, the future, the truth. Yeah. Yeah. We've just been, like, sick and tired the last month or two or seven or 12. Yeah. It's been a crazy year.

People dying. Yeah. Family members, friends, animals, life. Damn, we've been going through it. And I bet you, whoever is listening, have of our lovely patrons are putting on a rewatch discussion of season three. They did one already for seasons one and seasons two of His Dark Materials. So if you're interested in that, consider it for 2023. Yeah, consider becoming a Thunder Tier patron. I will say we have a really lively HDM, His Dark Materials community over at our Discord server. And we have a lively, God and we have a lively god we

have a lively food community as we've discussed in our brand chapters with courtney a lively game of thrones hot d a suave community as well and now a budding white lotus ha ha ha a budding white lotus community since we finally got you on board so there are fives of us i haven't joined that discussion yet because i only started what because i like watched all of season one last week everyone when i was sick and yeah so i i'm just starting season two i was starting it last night but i also kind of timed it i didn't time when i finished season one right but it happened to fall around like the last two weeks of season two so it's gonna be great for me because i don't have to wait at all for the completion i'm really excited for

you to finally take this journey with me i really am we'll have to maybe we'll do some sort of new year roundup of what we've been watching and tell you guys what we're feeling because uh we're watching a lot of stuff we're we're big media hogs right now, right? We have Sex Lives of College Girls. The Gossip Girl reboot season two just started. It's okay so far, but it's fine. It's fine. It's not the original, but it's fine. And my God, what else is happening? I'm sure we're watching more. I started Mythic Quest, so I'm on season two of that now. I think you'd like it. It's fun. I don't know if you're watching it. I'm starting it soon. I want to. It's on my list. It's on my list. Yeah. And then also I just watched all two seasons of Ted Lasso during that time that I was sick. That's also on my list.

Okay. Perfect. It's fun. It's a lot about how America saves Britain. I'm sorry. No, wait. Who said that? It's about how America saves British football.

It's the World Cup right now. I'm sorry. i should not say this i'm about to get like people really mad at me we just lost so many viewers so many viewers well people weren't viewing it anyway so we lost no one we're a podcast uh yeah new year it'll be the same us yeah no we could be worse as i say every single year i could i can be even worse than i am now i valid and i look forward to that every year eliana i look forward to the person you become or derail into i should say and i look forward to subjecting you to that symbiotic they call it codependent codependent is another word they might call it

lots to think on lots to chew on and we're gonna let you all chew on all of that and digest it while we take part in our lightning round for what we missed between brand four in a clash of kings Bran IV into Clash of Kings and Bran V. Tyrion VII. Lancel demands Pycelle's return for the queen, but Tyrion has blackmail up his sleeves and further employs Lancel. He takes a scenic route home to see Shae. Arya VII. Jaqen and Arya reunite and Arya whispers a name to them. Catelyn III. Catelyn fails to bring peace between the Baratheon brothers and is made to stay at Renly's slumber party until he has... won. Sansa 3. A true knight beats Sansa at court over her brother's latest victory. Tyrion offers Sansa protection, but she declines. Catelyn 4. Catelyn prays to the Seven and realizes the truth, that Bran almost

died for. She asks Renly to call a great council, but when rejected, she witnesses his death by Shadow Baby. Bran and Catelyn make their great escape. Jon IV. At the Fist of the First Men, Ghost leads Jon to Dragonglass. And that brings us here to a clash of kings bran five where while rob is victorious bran feels a sense of doom same jojan's prophecy has come true bran tries to warn against the upcoming tides but no one listens to him bran five and i have to say there's so much in the last catalan chapter that kind of comes over in catalan four to this chapter so much that even at the very front of this chapter we open with a forge where we open with her praying to the smith and i think it's just so eloquently done we start with ale belly who finds bran in the forge where he's working the bellows for Miccon, Armday.

So cute! And he says it's very cute, and it's good for him. Yeah, it is. It's good exercise. Ale Belly says Bran is needed up in the turret with Maester Luwin, that Rob had sent a raven. Bran is too excited to wait for Hodor to come get him, so Ale Belly carries him. I just want to point out that poor Ale Belly, while strong, apparently isn't as strong as Hodor and is like panting by the time they get to Luin's. Like that poor man. Also, it's probably all that ale.

Yeah, it's actually like a really funny chapter. However, it's very depressing as well, which is kind of like me, right as a person. So I'm very into it. Like I'm very funny,, I would say. I'm pretty comical, but I'm also very depressed. Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. So it's a good mix. It's like a scoop of Chloe ice cream. But there's all these little moments. Like, Alebelly could barely move.

He had been carrying Bran up all these stairs. Like, it's really bad because that guy dies soon. Yeah. And I mean, like, a nine-year-old's pretty big. Yeah. That's also very true. Like, it's really bad because that guy dies soon. Yeah. Bummer. I mean, like, a nine-year-old's pretty big. Yeah. That's also very true. Like, extremely true. I mean, I wouldn't want to carry a nine-year-old.

I don't even want to carry, like, a four-year-old. Yeah. They're also heavy. Yeah, and you've got to bring them all the way upstairs. Seems rough. Seems rough. I think we need to install some ramps. Yeah.

I think it's time. Or a pulley. I don't know. Anyway. A pulley. Like a a winch like at the veil so the news is both great and bad rob has won at ox cross and has taken many castles writing for mash mark bran asks if he killed tywin and unfortunately no he did not and he's like kind of mad that he agrees and big walter like, well, it's the only thing that matters. Yeah. There's something interesting in that the next Arya chapter, it's Tywin leaving

for battle, right? And it's when she almost kills him via her three wishes. Should have done it. From her genie in the bottle. Yeah, should have done it. But it's just like her, right? Like, she thinks Tywin's the only one that actually matters. I need to kill Tywin. Yeah, I mean, look at what happens in A Feast for Crows. Someone had to do it it was tyrian yeah finally the true hero

the gritty anti-hero rickon chastises rob from afar saying he needs to come home and he can bring his wolf to and mother and father very sad sad, but also, again, very funny. He's like, he's allowed to bring his wolf home, too. Rickon. We get a little exposition that Rickon sometimes forgets Ned is dead and sometimes willfully, stubbornly, like he knows that Ned's dead, but he's just pretending he's not, which is really sad, right? It's not healthy.

It's sad. No one's really dealing with that, and's not healthy. It's sad. No one's really dealing with that. And that could maybe fester within him. And it's a little bit of an unreliable narrator. We don't necessarily constantly get from Rickon, but we could, right? If he had a POV, I wonder what we would really get from it.

It would be maybe a little more feral and full of lies because kids just lie all the time with no reason needed right like they just love to lie i love to lie to kids so but kids love to lie part of it is like i guess a blurring between like what reality and truth they're like i don't know why not why not say this crazy thing yeah so and no one's gonna yell at him for it obviously because they're all dead yeah like what do you do you do you tell the four-year-old, no, Rickon, your dad is dead, like, all the time? Big sad. It gets tiring, yeah.

Yeah. But I do like this call-out about Rickon being very willfully stubborn, right? It really shows how Rickon's got that wolf's blood going on. Yeah. Those are my family. That's my family. That's my family. So Bran is glad for Rob's win, but he's kind of disquieted remembering Osha's words about how Rob should actually be fighting towards the north. And now Lewin addresses the sad parts.

The Walders is his uncle. Severin Frey took a wound and died. Big Walder and Little Walder, Stevern Frey, took a wound and died. Big Walder and Little Walder, surprisingly, do not give a fuck. They're like, hell yeah, one more out of the line of succession. And they immediately launch into a whole succession discussion between them,

which is very helpful for us, the readers, especially on our first time through. Little Walder asks if Eamon is the Earendal, and Big Walder says, the sons of the first son come before the second son so it's sir ryman first and then edwin then black walder and then peter pimple and then it's agan and his sons and again thank you for the exposition slash reminder george about how primogenitor works for most of the rest of westeros and especially because we do have that fight for the throne between Joffrey and Stannis and Redly you know two other second and third sons versus

allegedly the son of the first son yeah I thought this was some important exposition and I also thought there was something in it that reminded me a bit of Catelyn and Robb with the will in a storm of swords and kind of that discussion of who's going to get Winterfell and also maybe even some hints in the end game right because Bran and Jon Jon is the son of a well it depends on how you're legally looking at Jon's birth right and what comes out in the end game. But if Jon is a son of a firstborn son for the throne, if he's revealed as a Targaryen child under Rhaegar, or if he's the son of Lyanna in kind of a succession look at Winterfell, a thirdborn if we're caring about women in this scenario, compared to Bran with Ned as the second second born son so there could even be some

tensions arise with that primogenitor coming up in the very plot in the winds of winter or in a dream of spring or in any book that we get someday Bran and Jon coming out of the woodwork is going to just really like throw everyone for a loop and then you have those complications of like how in the world of ice and fire we learned that whatres, did he disinherit Rhaegar? He kind of did. And so, like, what do people think? But most people know that the primogenitor is, like, well, the kid of the first son follows before the other ones. And, like, that's what the rest of Westeros is used to.

And also, you know, Jon had the good sense to be born with a penis, so. Yeah, makes it that much easier to say fuck sansa yeah well and denarius right like with all those other things so yeah with the agan stuff with the agan stuff and poor john he's got it on all ends he's like i literally did not ask for this he's like i don't want winterfell i don't want the iron throne i don't want anything he's like i didn't ever really want winter i don't want the iron throne i don't want anything he's like i didn't ever really want winterfell i just wanted to belong i just wanted a family you know and why is my family falling apart on both ends my poor bastard all of my family why am i fucking my aunt things are hard not just me i'm okay wait. Maybe not after he comes back to life, depending on his blood supply.

Or he has constant rigor mortis. Who knows? Oh, he's going to have rigor mortis, all right. I'm wondering also, did George not really have this work? He didn't have the phrase worked out totally, I don't think, as far as their family tree in this book at all because it's referenced that Aegon is being counted in this succession so I'm like does he mean Aegon Bloodborne who's an outlaw or Jingle Bell Aegon because neither of them have been discussed as having

sons I think it's kind of implied that Aegon Bloodborne is an outlaw and probably won't inherit I don't know I think he just made a few oopsies and this really is not important it's just like interesting as i read because i was looking in the appendix again and i'm like nope nothing nada is he just making things up maybe big walder really is that stupid we just don't know it might be he might be that dumb but um i feel like i as you said right he was still gardening all that and he it's gardening, he didn't have to have that nailed down to, like, Storm and Feast, right, when he starts digging into it. He's like, I don't know, I'll deal with that later. Ooh, Bloodborne. Absolutely.

Hagen Bloodborne. Yeah, that was foreshadowing for George collaborating with From Software, everyone, to make Elden Ring. Oh my god, it is is sure you know what some days I just don't even want to fight you on some of this stuff so I just nod I hope everyone at home knows that I'm nodding right now confidently. Little Walder says Ryman is old too and with a bad belly he asks if Big Walder thinks Ryman will be lord and Big Walder says I don't care I'm going to be lord. Luin is sitting there like what the fuck is wrong with you two? Why aren't you crying? And in the most comedic passage in the entire Clash of Kings,

yes, said Little Walder, we're very sad. Oh my god. I have never laughed so hard when reading a line. Yes, we're very sad. Anyways, back to talking about the succession. Like, he immediately just goes, anyways, and snaps back. And suddenly, though, on a more serious note, Bran got a sick feeling in his belly. They like the taste of this dish better than I do. The vision, the dream, the green dream comes true right in front of his eyes. Bran suddenly realizes he's like, oh, I was wrong last time.

Shit, magic is real okay okay uh he sees the way that the dreams work right which is that that language of symbols that symbolism the metaphors and also i i will say like i i want to come back to what you're saying about this hilarious line because lewin like he's like yeah i'll parent these two other kids that i love who are precious and lovely. And he's like, what the fuck is wrong with these wards? Why am I parenting these terrible children? He's like, I'm not responsible for them. I don't like you.

I feel bad for him. It's really funny because he's really trying to be gray between it. You know, he's trying to Swiss that shit up. But my God, is it hard because they're little sociopaths yeah uh so brand asks to be excused osha comes to get him she's much stronger than ale belly and lifts him easily carrying him down the steps first of all for a second i was like it's interesting that osha is stronger than ale belly which yeah but also it's a little osha's got to go downstairs you know like it's a little bit easier than carrying the kid upstairs but she probably is true inertia inertia gravity he asks her if she knows the way

north past the wall she says to look for the ice dragon and chase the blue star in the rider's eye what could that mean he asks if there are still giants others and children of the forest there and she says she's seen giants she's heard tell of the children and white walkers too he asks if she ever saw a three-eyed crow and she laughs saying she can't say she would want to i thought that was really funny that osha asks why brand wants to know about the white walkers and also you know this is a this conversation does a quick like thing where it reminds people that the others and the white walkers are the same because brand asks about the others and osha calls them the white walkers uh different names for the same

thing which i don't know maybe kind of like how the c is a different name for someone or maybe reek a different name for someone but also besides that like i don't know it was kind of funny that she paused there and asked why do you want to know about the white walkers because obviously like that's part of why she's telling bran they gotta march north that's why she's fleeing north of the wall so it doesn't really make sense to some extent of like why she wouldn't bring it up because obviously she's kind of seen tell of them other than for dramatic tension there is a little yeah something's like indistinguishable there of how she doesn't give him real answers

because i do feel like we're past that point yeah like they've already kind of had secret conversations and she's already been like your brother should be going north i'm not sure i think it's really dramatic tension. Yeah. It does feel a little, it's for the plot there. Because realistically, Osha is a very interesting mentor to show up in Bran's plot that we don't interface with, right? And in a way, it's almost like Bran sacrifices what could have been with Osha to have her

take care of Rickon. Like, obviously, somebody had to go with Rickon that was able to do so, and he needed the people that he kept for his side of the group. But sacrificing Osha to take care of Rickon, even though she's an app protector with some sort of knowledge of the North and of some of the mysticism going on, also shows that Bran knows what's good for everyone is more important than what's good for him in some instances and I thought that really stood out to me on this read like Osha knows some shit but we're just letting her go that's a good point and I kind of part of me wonders like now that you put it like that yeah she actually would have been fantastic for when they go north of the wall for navigating because she knows the area, right? But is there maybe a part of her that's a little relieved we don't have her POV that she doesn't have to go back there?

She's going to Skagos where, yeah, it's new. She's never been there. Maybe there are cannibals, but at least there aren't ice zombies. She already ran from that. Yeah. Yeah. She already ran from that. Just ice storms and zombies and people who will turn you into one and whatever.

Shaggy mammoth unicorns. Yeah, that's fun. That could be fun. That's fun. It could be fun. It could be fun. It's a new adventure for her. Definitely. The one day we will see. Maybe. So she sets him down in the window seat after kicking open the door, and mere moments later, Jojen and Mira appear,

having heard about the raven that came to Winterfell. Bran says, It wasn't supper like you said. It was a letter from Rob. We didn't eat it, but- And Jojen interrupts, saying that the truth of these dreams is sometimes hard to interpret, but that it takes strange shapes.

I'm very glad he didn't eat the fucking envelope good job brand he's like fuck this news hysterical chapter feels very purposeful right in a book that we hear a similar thing from melisandre who starts to examine her dreams and we start to hear from her a little more in some of these chapters especially like the shadow baby stuff right just that it doesn't always it takes strange shapes some of these interpretations are a little different absolutely and that grows as we go it really does it really does especially in this book right and when you were saying like it's good he didn't eat the news now that i think about it and think about that dream slash prophecy from Jojen more, it really is interesting with the way that Bran's storyline has a lot to do with, of course, that eating. Maybe even eating of Jojen.

Oh my god. It reminds me of, in the same book, The House of the Undying. Yeah. book the house of the undying yeah and obviously red wedding but seeing the red wedding and seeing the feast that diorama of it and like the idea of danny getting kind of some prophetic visions through that and through the drugs and through the 13 and i don't know there's something interesting in the interpretation of what she sees and what we hear from her who knows what she actually sees and how she really interpreted it right like it's the mind playing with you and that's very interesting you just

you get what you get from these visions yeah she didn't i think really do much to try to interpret the visions only mostly like what the undying tell her because that was explicitly given to her whereas the rest of the visions she's just like well shit this is the wrong door this is not it this is not what i'm looking for and that's a metaphor yeah right and it's not the right door first of all it's not the house with the red door and yeah with the king's portion being that bloody raw and red like how she ate the horse heart oh yeah yeah yeah and i mean the the black bark trees that are the inverse right that are found near the house of the undying that they make the shade of the evening from its leaves we've talked a little bit in the past about how they're kind of

interestingly linked right like they have their visions come out differently when you're on shade of the evening versus this thinking about like Euron, for example, with his blue stained lips and his visions being a synthetic, less pure version of what Jojen is able to see or what Bran is seeing. Yeah, it's a

much more bad trip. It's a very bad trip. It makes you understand why Euron is the way he is. Right? And even with what Osha just said, it makes you understand why Euron is the way he is, right? That's true. And even with what Osha just said, it made me think of Euron a little, and Aemond One-Eye, and all of these, like, sapphire-eyed guys. Me sapphire-eyed freaks. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

With the following the ice dragon with the blue eye. Very interesting. Lots of visuals to go off of, George. Thank you. Yeah. It all connects. Yeah, he was probably like- It all connects. Why don't I just reread the stuff that I wrote and then pull from there? That's inspiring.

I mean, if I had written all this and then I needed to inspire myself somehow, that would probably be smart. Though the ice dragon might be inspired by, I guess, one of his other stories. Ice dragon. Yeah. Mm-hmm. So, Brynn is ready to hear about the bad thing that jojen dreamed finally and jojen says the sea is coming to winterfell black waves crashing against the gates and towers drowned men floating in the yard he didn't know the faces when he dreamed it at graywater but now he does he recognizes them it's ale belly the septon micken the smith and brand is skeptical but jojan says well he saw them

dead bloated drowned brand's like okay well then let's tell them we can save them and jojan's like they won't believe no more than you did and i don't know why there's something about like that idea of they won't believe even if you tell them that preaching to them the truth and them refusing to believe that feels like very religious to me and and those kinds of ideas about non-believers in the bible but also kind of funny that he calls them drowned men but here it's literal in term but it's literal but not literal it's literal within the context of the dream when george later on i think this is another thing of gardening uses that phrase in a feast for cr, especially to refer to priests of the drowned god. That's interesting.

That might have been gardened specifically from this, from Winterfell and Theon taking it. Yeah. That's very interesting. I didn't think about that. It makes me want to explore some of that more and how that has evolved when it comes to like Aaron's chapters for example or Victorian's chapters for example yeah it's fascinating that Aaron now that I think about it when we were talking about near-death experiences that he he ends up going to I guess a John God he didn't Blood Raven wasn't like let's go for it maybe Blood Raven was like wow I really messed up once with that family let's

not try again yeah he's like I'm, I'm just going to skip over them. That one was bad enough. That was a bad experience for all. So once more, Jojen asks Bran to tell him his dreams. A Stark keeps his sworn word. So Bran tells him the wolf dreams. Running, hunting squirrels. But then there's the other dream, the crow dream, where sometimes the tree calls his name.

But the worst dream of all is when he falls. So close. He's really unearthing that falling dream. We're getting closer. He even is remembering the golden man in it. Like, we're so close, Bran. I like that the tree and the crow are kind of listed as separate entities here. That the tree could possibly be the children

maybe and the old gods watching him based on what Llewyn and Old Nan have told us about the children of the forest being dead and gone for thousands of years and seeing through the faces of the trees. Who knows, but I like that the tree is separate from the crow. Like maybe they are dueling

in some capacity or from that same well of magic, like showing that that three-eyed crow is a separate being which we will learn we'll see when we meet blood raven it's interesting because we hear later on in theon's chapters right and we'll talk about this again in a second but like that the trees call his name and it's assumed that that's bran right is the tree calling him him from the future don't talk to yourself bran i never talk what are you doing buddy never reflect upon i talk to myself all the time no i mean i talk all the time i don't talk to myself aloud really my partner does that here i'm talking in the shower i'm like what are

what's going on mine does that too i think very hard though i get very lost in my thought uh yeah exactly i don't i don't really do it aloud that much there's a quick blip in here a start keeps his sworn word brand thinks and really like that. Although it just makes me think of Ned and Lyanna and that like they don't necessarily, you know, a Stark doesn't always tell the truth, but they keep their sworn word. They keep their promises, right? Promise me. Promise me. Promise me. Promise me. Absolutely. Great call. So Meera then comfortss bran but jojen chooses a different method yeah hard love from jojen right some hard love from jojen warg said jojen reed bran looked at him his eyes wide what warg shape changer beastling

that is what they will call you if they should ever hear of your wolf dreams. The names made him afraid again. Who will call me? Your own folk. In fear. Some will hate you if they know what you are. Some will even try to kill you. Old Nan told scary stories of beastlings and shapechangers sometimes. In the stories, they were always evil.

I'm not like that. I'm not. It's only dreams. The wolf dreams are no true dreams. You have your eye closed tight whenever you're awake, but as you drift off, it flutters open and your soul seeks out its other half. The power is strong in you. don't want to wait sorry sorry wrong person i don't want it i want to be a knight a knight is what you want a warg is what you are you can't change that bran you can't deny it or push it away you are the winged wolf but you will never fly jojen got up and walked to the window unless you open your eye open your eye i like the scenes later with brin scrunching his forehead um and poking so exile from your own people is is what he's kind of warning about right feeling isolated from them which is kind of i guess what

would happen even if they didn't reject you because you're very different and the whole idea of power and isolation which is what you've been talking about a lot but when it does come to that social ostracization like people being afraid of your power or seeing you as different, right? Seeing you as an other, if you will, especially because it's likely that the others are born from this kind of ability. And we don't know exactly how yet, but I assume it's something kind of deeper, right? Speaks to those sorts of human emotions. And it's also kind of ironic that they would be feared for it and distrusted when the First Men probably actually originally sought out this power, that it would become feared afterwards, maybe because people would use it over them. And then also that idea of being seen as therefore a foreigner amongst your own people, that difference between what you want to be and what you are.

I think that goes really well with Theon's story as well. Oh, that's great. Because it kind of goes hand in hand with someone else who is back to their homelands or to the south, who also is kind of treated like a foreigner in her own land now, Catelyn. Right? And it goes right with that last Catelyn chapter with the shadow baby. No one will believe what you say, Jojen tells Bran.

Isn't that why Catelyn and Brienne run from the camp too? Because even just being associated with the shadow baby is, to the general public, insane. Even just saying what we saw, what magic we saw kill the king would get them locked up and called crazy. Even in that last Arya chapter, you then have the magic awakening there with Arya and Jaqen, right? Where Chiswick dies, where she simply can say the name and then he drops dead. Beastling. Warg. Shape changer.

And that's so that's great that you've tied it to them like absolutely with the chiswick and and jockin and them fearing the magic but also when you talk about catelyn and brienne brienne's also someone who's seen as different than a foreigner in a way amongst her own people because shape changer right she's trying to change the shape of gender what she can be and so forth right she yes she wants to be a knight and she oh yeah and the knight is what they are right like so it's but no she's a shapeshifter exactly she's seen as a warg in a different skin than what she should actually be in absolutely damn damn powerful powerful but also when you say no one will believe what you say, like that disbelief, it kind of reminded me of that Bill Murray meme. I just have to say the no one will ever believe you.

Just when she gets too smart, she reels it on back. God. Reels it on back. It's balanced. All things must be balanced. Jojen jams some fingers in Bran's forehead, but nothing happens. He tells him

to search with his heart and asks if he's afraid. Search with your heart, Anakin. You know it to be true, is basically what he's saying. I'm telling you. Maester Luwin told Bran there was nothing in his dreams that a man should fear but jojen says there is the future the truth the past this all confuses bran even further yeah i got now i kind

of wonder if like maybe george did steal that line from star wars it is it's literally bran's plot is half dune half star wars which is the same thing because Star Wars stole everything they have from Dune. So it's literally, I'm not kidding, it's the same story. But Paul Atreides, I mean, and then not just Paul, but Paul's son. No spoilers for these books that have been out for a very long time. But Worm Emperor, God Emperor of Dune is kind of Bran. Oh, Wormst. Oh, Wormst.

Emperor of Doom is kind of Bran. Oh, Wormst. Oh, Wormst. The dreams that Bran shares with Jojen, though, really are the past, the future, and the truth. And that last dream scares Bran so much because it isn't a vision, right? It's not a wolf dream. It's just the truth that he is running from. And he's afraid of the truth of himself being a beastling, because not as true.

The stories tell him that beastlings, shape changers are evil, right? He wants to be a knight, which the stories say are good. But the truth is, a knight is the reason the brand is the way he is now. Yeah. Yeah, a quote unquote knight. I i mean he's a knight he's just i guess they really let the standard fall these days i mean that's what that sansa chapter before this one is about yeah it's sad because a knight has fallen right like to become meaningless in some aspects i mean it's been that way for a

while this is not a new thing truly it's systemic we see that in the hedge knight right with dunk as he yells are there no true knights among you this has been happening for a while with the price of glory versus buying that price of glory paying in gold yeah yeah yeah there are no true knights and a knight has become evil yeah that's bummer poor bran everything you want to do in your life kind of sucks nothing's i mean it's just like that in real life right like i want to grow up to do this everything's evil it's all corrupted by the system brand you gotta fix that i think being a shape changer or beastling though you know there's not a lot of people in that career track. He really has a chance to define what that means for himself.

Really shape that position within the company. If we're going to publicize and capitalize this company of skin changing, yeah. So when he's alone, Bran tries to open his third eye, but he doesn't really know how. He tries to warn the people of Winterfell in the days to come of Jojen's dream, but it didn't go as he wanted. Migen laughed at it, saying he always wanted to see the sea. Septon Shale says,

The gods will take me as they see fit, though I scarcely think it likely I'll drown. And Eelbelly is the only one who takes it seriously, going to talk to Jojen himself. Afterwards, he stops bathing and refuses to go near the well. We have this passage.

Finally, he stank so bad that six of the other guards threw him into a tub of scalding water and scrubbed him raw while he screamed they were going to drown him like the frog boy said. Thereafter, he scowled whenever he saw Bran or Jojen about the castle and muttered under his breath. Hysterical. It is. Again, comedy outsold. Thank you, George. You are truly a comedic writer in these chapters and you're killing me. So fucking funny. But it's actually finally showing how serious people can take prophecies, right, or prophetic visions.

Like, everyone else kind of laughs at it just with it even septon shale as we mentioned who was like i'm a great swimmer i don't think i'll drown and then he drowns in a well bummer kind of sad like haha nice try avoiding it but it shows how seriously they take prophecy or these prophetic visions some of them and i thought that was interesting that only one of them actually cared but then like jojen says no matter what they won't believe you like ale belly didn't believe them after he realized that he uh you know it wasn't happening yet and that's not that different from brand right he didn't believe until the other vision came true he was like yes at the end of last chapter magic isn't real so a few days after ale belly's bath roderick then returns to winterfell with a prisoner a fleshy young man with fast moist lips maybe someone would describe them as worms fucking

anyways a long hair who stinks named reek he had served the bastard of Bolton, allegedly, and helped murder Lady Hornwood. True, it was said. The bastard, Ramsay, was dead, allegedly. Bran learned at dinner. Roderick had caught him doing something horrible on Hornwood land, and Bran wasn't quite sure what, but it seemed to be something you did without your clothes. Still hasn't figured it out he's like i've seen sex for sure yeah they had shot him down with arrows but poor lady hornwood had died this is kind of horrific how it's just in the background so i want to talk about how it's kind of worded interestingly that roderick's men caught him on hornwood land raping another woman right another woman but in a clash of kings theon six we actually get this kind of reversed wow it's been a

while and we see it from the other side where ramsey laughs and he says reek is dead the girl's fault if she had not run so far his horse would not have lamed and we might have been able to flee i gave him mine when i saw the riders from the ridge. I was done with her by then, and he liked to take his turn while they were still warm. I had to pull him off her and shove my clothes into his hands, calfskin boots, velvet doublet, silver-chased sword belt, even my sable cloak. Ride for the dreadfort, I told him. Bring all the help you can. Take my horse. He's swifter. And here, wear the ring my father gave me so they'll know you came from me. He had learned better than to question me. By that time, they put the arrow through his back. I'd smeared myself with the girl's filth and dressed in his rags.

They might have hanged me anyway, but it was the only chance I saw. So we get to kind of see the actual switcheroo that goes on in the background and how much the Stark faction actually missed right when they were there that they just saw oh the bastard we have him look at him in his handsome clothes raping a woman killing a woman that must be him fits the bill and it's such a very cleverly done in text body switcheroo a clever switcheroo and man this is the beginning of winterfell's end in a clash of kings what lord can't protect their people what king can't protect their people now the north is just like everyone and everywhere else right until we can write this it proves that the north is no better than the south it always has been and always it always was kind of like that

i mean you know roose bolton is famous for having what is it a peaceful and the quiet people i'm like what the fuck does that mean suspicious out of what fear and murder yeah exactly and we just let them we just let them because it's never made a big enough problem until now and it's always been like that because otherwise how else you do you get Ramsay born, right? We know how Ramsay was conceived, which is that Roose raped his mother. And yeah, absolutely. And of course, this kind of gives you a little sense of what's going on here. Great call out with this because then you get that three-point reveal between this

Jojen's dream and what eventually does happen at the end of brand's chapters of this book and yeah absolutely and as you were saying right they see the fancy clothes and they assume that's who the person underneath is right they let the clothes stand in for the person which is very much what happens with theon's storyline right when he goes back home they're like look at your fancy clothes who the fuck are you i was very taken with that in in that little passage right there the exact description of what he says and theon six is literally what he did to reek right there is what he was planning to do with theon and to cast it off on theon as well oh i was like i'll send him to do it when he goes home right like that he's not accepted because because he's got clothes that that resemble the northerners right they don't look like iron important clothes and therefore his identity becomes questioned but same as you said

right they put beyond in those clothes and it's that constant questioning of who are you are you the things that express who you are on the outside or are you who you are on the inside and that plays into those ideas of trappings of power that are going to come in later on yeah feeding the ironborn what they think they want to see in order to lift that siege and bring it to ramsay's side later yeah is interesting so we have a passage that after the wedding the bastard had locked her in a tower and neglected to feed her. Bran had heard men saying that when Roderick smashed down the door, he found her with her mouth all bloody and her fingers chewed off. Ramsay put them in quite a predicament.

He made Lady Hornwood his wife, in front of a septon and heart tree, interesting, bedding her before witnesses and made her sign a will, naming him her heir, fixing her seal to it. So he did not screw around. He had both the septon and the heart tree. He's like, I'm doing it in all religions today. Interesting. Good point. Vows made at sword point are not valid, the maester argued.

Yeah. He was covering all his faces. Covering his ass but yeah so i guess yeah lady hornwood was not only kidnapped and forced to wed this guy she was then raped in front of a shit ton of people no one did anything and then regarding her fingers being chewed off and her being starved the implication is she ate her fingers because she was starved but as uh some people i remember this reading this like years ago on reddit someone had pointed out maybe a couple people um that she might have chewed off her fingers because ramsey had flayed her fingers and it was so painful that she chewed them off as we see with theon's flayed fingers and lost fingers in adobada it's kind of funny because it's, like, one of those things that I honestly take as canon in my head

because it's, like, such a long-standing theory, right? So even when reading it, it's interesting because when rereading this, I'm like, oh, is that really how it happened, huh? Oops. I do take it as canon now. And, yeah, but they didn't know it was like crazy like that yeah and i think we get that later especially theon's story kind of colors that when we see that with him it kind of backfills that story for you vows made at sword point are not valid

that's a very nice thing to say when someone's already been raped and murdered like what is what does that fucking help anyone that's not valid okay well he's there they all have that land now and they murdered lady hornwood so thank you lewin your words don't really help your argument is very great it just doesn't mean anything anymore i also want to point out another vow made at sword point eventually that we we've had already in our story which is jamie right jamie and the girls that's true and that's this book yeah it's in this book yeah great point i've been thinking that and this isn't really a hot take this is just a thought like this means nothing while hbo gave sansa jane's plot right in season, they also kind of gave her part of Donella's plot,

I feel like. They kind of mashed that up. I didn't think about it much, but Donella's not mentioned at all in the show. So there are elements of her plot that are being given to Sansa. Wow. Lady Donella erasure. Fucked up. I mean, George did a great job adapting Donella into a full character from Sansa's character in the hit HBO experience Game of Thrones. Absolutely. That's a great point. It's a great addition. He found two whole characters out of Sansa. That's how amazing she is. Her character is that expansive. Thanks, David and Dan. Oh, I'm going to kill myself. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Roderick says Roose Bolton wouldn't agree with the maester's argument for now they've kept his

serving man who's just as fucked up as ramsay and plan to keep him alive until rob returns to recant the bastard's crimes but even if ruse abandoned the claim they have the manderly knights and dreadfort men killing one another in the forests as they should i mean sorry wait so this really makes me think of something that you were talking about a few weeks ago when it came to danella's danella's claim right and and the hornwood lands because yeah winterfell is rob's seat but as you said like rob failed to really deputize anyone to rule and make any of these massive decisions like in his stead because he has to be focusing on whatever he's focusing on right now like the north is a huge place

that needs someone governing it you can't it can't just be put on hold while you're at war and he didn't do that at all he needed some sort of hand ruling right who wasn't out at war same as how tyrian is like doing a bunch of stuff right now in king's landing he is he is making a lot of wide sweeping changes and decisions and he's not relying on the king necessarily to empower him to enact that and same as how ned acted when he was hand when robert was king but also it was clear robert didn't intend to do anything so if roderick and lewin had the knowledge already about what happened with the hornwood lands and that this this rando ass man was part of it then they could have just executed ramsay not knowing he was ramsay because they already kind of killed him anyway instead of keeping him alive as a witness and just redistributed those lands and yeah that

probably would have pissed off ruse bolton and he would have been mad about these outcomes and the redistribution of the hornwood lands etc and the manderleys i don't know they'd figure that out whatever you know but you would just have to deal with like the bolton's defecting maybe and not all of the other stuff that happens later on well and i think that actually is the problem they're in because ruse has been given a higher seat of command than many of the other lords and he has proven himself to be a quote unquote you know like a good part of this however we're getting in the aria chapters already hints of his defection, right? And we're hearing that he might not actually be loyal and we don't absolutely see it in full yet,

but you can kind of see some of these hints and you can see that Roderick and Maester Luwin are tiptoeing around it. Like, I think that's actually the reason they're keeping the serving man alive is one, so that they have proof of Ramsay's crimes, because who's going to believe them? Roose wouldn't believe them ruse wouldn't

believe them if he's like your bastard son is dead now but did all this shit and he tore our realm asunder i don't think that i think it's insurance against ruse as well as well as like a sign of good faith at the same time like we're keeping your serving man alive we can't just go killing our fellow lord serving man true we can kill a son just not a serving man yeah yeah right but it does come to it like because then you're looking at like favoring one vassal over the other how are you going to rule fairly against these vassals especially when you've already given ruse a pretty high seat of honor in the eyes of this war so i do think that it's a rock and a hard place like but i also at that

same exact point really agree like by not deputizing anyone in this and it's something that maybe in the winds of winter for example or a dream of spring we might see more of the stark's lack of political warfare as well cadeline is only able to focus on one political thing at a time right now and she's putting her whole ass caduceus into the South, right? Like she is really trying to get some sort of alliance or some sort of something to happen with these Southern kings that are warring in order to protect her family and the North in some aspects.

But the North is really empty and you left it with nothing. Where Jon, for example, if he comes back to life in the winds of winter as we all are hoping slash knowing he will and he's kind of waging a war i mean he needs someone like sansa in the north to be politicking in the background as well you can't just hope your realm doesn't tear itself apart yeah though some people are doing that that is definitely what some people are doing absolutely in regards to yeah like it is a much more complex situation. Like, yeah, he needs a serving man there to be evidence. But I don't know.

A lot of things could have been done better by Rob, but then we wouldn't have a story. Yeah. And I mean, he's 15. That's also true. I could not do anything that Rob is doing when I was 15 years old. Mm-mm. Yeah, I can't even do it now. I would be dead earlier than he was. You're not fucking wrong. I feel that. I'm already dead.

Yeah. Get out into the war. Oh god, stab. Roderick turns in his seat to scold Bran about his activities while he's been away. Bran defends the green dreams and tells Roderick what Jojen saw. Lewin reluctantly reveals that while he usually says dreams are silly, and he's made sure Bran knows that, there's definitely a bad moon on the rise, right? Raping, burning, pillaging on the stony shore, Benfred Tallheart had gone off to strike fear into them and scatter them. Dang, if Lewin could have just been made to believe in the dreams, and he's almost

like kind of starting to believe a little, he's like, that is kind of interesting what you said, right? He'd actually be super helpful because Bran is nine years old and has not been taught literary devices, and so he's taking this dream stuff still very literally, like the

drowning, very literally, right? He hasn't caught on yet that it isn't quite like that, whereas Lewwin is catching on and he's just like he's almost there about what the dream is warning them about yeah and as a nine-year-old you don't understand that you don't know how to look out of the box on that yet as a whatever hundreds of years old melisandre doesn't quite always get it either you know like you need a lot of time to be able to finesse that so I definitely don't take that on him but how would Bran know to look outside of the box and say it could be something different how would you know what you haven't seen you know like how do you the human brain we you know there's something in the

John Dyes at the End books that I really love that it's something explaining in much better terms, which is why I didn't write the book and Jason Pargan did. But there's this concept that if you haven't seen something before, your human brain assigns it something. The way that you see something, you could look at a chair, but if you had never seen a chair before, what would you see? How would you familiarize your brain with it and how would you actually, you know, like the atoms of a chair but if you had never seen a chair before what would you see right like how would you familiarize your brain with it and how would you actually you know like the atoms of a chair how would you see them with your eyes your eyes have never seen them before so it's like something that we humans do and assign to things and that's kind of the same here like how could bran even conceptualize the sea coming to winterfell right now those words mean ocean waves crashing into it he doesn't quite understand the metaphor of it all yeah our human brains are wired to understand

story because that's how we would convey information to one another our brains are naturally like pattern seeking we seek to ascribe meaning to things and we try to fit it into the things that we know and find those patterns so yeah absolutely brand only knows literally drowning not brand knows his abcs okay brand is out here he's really you know he's he's launching his new brain career okay yeah no one's talking about the politics over on the coast right no one is like you know and he I guess doesn't associate Theon with the sea so no Theon was basically his brother Theon was a wolf

like him in his head absolutely part of the pack yeah Luwin also straight up is like but Bran is right it is the sea that comes and I'm like you're so close Luwin you're like one inch away. He kind of, I think he kind of wants to believe.

I wonder if like, I don't think that Bran telling him about the other dream coming true, right? Like about the news and the meat would have maybe made him believe. But like a couple more things, Luan would have believed. Well, and that's the saddest part, right? Because as he's like lying, bleeding out

that we'll eventually get to in the next couple of weeks, happy December. As he's like lying bleeding out that we'll eventually get to in the next couple weeks happy december uh as he's like lying bleeding out he kind of almost admits it right like yeah not fully but in a way he kind of like i think he's more than likely thinking about it like if i had only believed maybe i could have stopped some of this but probably not. That way lies madness. That way lies madness. So Roderick says that they would have never dared the Ironborn would never have dared come and march on them no more than the Bastard of Bolton if their main strength had been there

and not in the south. Yes, that is the point. Yes, the main strength is not there. That is what's happening to you right now. He asks Bran to recant the green dream, and Roderick frowns, saying, well, I'm not going to take Alebelly if we have to ride against these raiders.

He ensures he wasn't drowned in this dream, too. He's like, was I dead? Was I drowned? Of course, not taking Alebelly thus ensures that Alebelly dies drowned by the sea. Dang. Damn. Damn. Damn. taking ale belly thus ensures that ale belly dies drowned by the sea dang damn damn damn well this all calms some of brand's fear he's like maybe they won't drown if we keep them away from the sea mira agrees but jojan's like no that's not how this works these dreams cannot be changed like time is set up at this point this is linear we can't change this this makes mira mad who's like why would you have this gift if we're not supposed to do

something with it but jojen doesn't know i just had this thought on like a very meta level right we're talking about like can you change the story can you change how it ends and i think as we've discussed george knows the broad sweeps of how the story will end but there how it ends? And I think, as we've discussed, George knows the broad sweeps of how the story will end, but there's a part of it where I kind of feel like he's arguing against that because he's always changing the story, right, as a gardener. Yeah. And also, Mira wanting to change that ending comes back to what we were discussing last episode, last chapter of

how she's got this very different kind of faith she has this faith that's based in hope of feeling that things can change as opposed to how the future is set in stone right the ink is dry and i it feels like brand has that too which is why he might try to change things in the past, right? Or he might try to change how things will go. Whereas, as we see, Bloodraven is someone who's resigned about how things cannot be changed. Aemon's resigned of how he could not change the fate of his family. And Theon, actually, later on, as we said, hears that voice in the trees, which is probably Bran. as we said, like, here's that voice in the trees, which is probably Bran, and maybe we can't always change the future in some of those ways through, like, your own actions, but

you can change who people are, and Bran, I think, believes in that. And there's this emphasis on prophecies being unavoidable and their tricky interpretation that sets us up here for the Blackwater, you you know you were talking about melisandre earlier and while she sees maybe clearer visions in the fire and maybe sometimes interprets them correctly but not all the time for sure like on a surface level she's someone who clearly believes that visions can be changed and it isn't immutable unlike jojen and so you end up with her and stannis doing a bunch of stuff like only for brenly's armor to just appear at the black water anyway as she had seen and that inspires even more awe

than it would have before because he's supposed to be dead because Because, like, and the Doctor Who of it all. If only you had watched it. It's been a couple episodes, so I figured I'd remind everyone that you haven't watched more than an episode and a half. Okay, I've watched The White Lotus. There's one of my favorite plots. I know, and thank you. I really love you.

I want you to know, thank you for doing this thing for me. You'll do this thing for me. You'll do this thing for me. You'll give me my iron chair. It's only six episodes. Yeah, so it's not really that much of a thing that you're doing for me anyways. But so there's a great plot in Doctor Who where they race the clock and they go back and forth in time trying to change things where the things they've seen are set in stone. And all they can do

is change the living in between those margins so like the parameters are that someone dies and they keep trying to go back to stop that person from suddenly aging and dying and they learn that all they can do is go back and live their life with that person instead like that's what you can change you could change the in-between. You can't change those hard, solid, you know, dried ink moments. Those are already written. And I find that very interesting with, like, like you said, like, Renly's armor was there.

She saw Renly's armor on the Blackwater, just not Renly. How could you have guessed that? Yeah. The obvious answer is Renly's going to be at that battle. So will we. How could you have guessed that? The obvious answer is Renly's going to be at that battle so will we. How could you have guessed that? Yeah, it's interesting.

Melisandre, I guess they don't teach fatalism and valorism, right? No, I'm serious, right? I don't think they do. They don't teach the concept of fate in that same way. They teach that divisions are a way to I don't think they do. Yeah, they don't teach the concept of fate in that same way. They teach that divisions are a way to, I don't know, change things. Well, maybe it depends on the sect.

Makora doesn't seem to feel that way. It kind of makes me think of the Dothraki, right? And kind of what we... We don't necessarily get all of their thoughts on fatalism, but they have, like, very firm thoughts, right, on how they worship and that when they die the horse god parts the grass right and claims the deceased so they can ride to the nightlands and that they believe the moons of god is like all their beliefs kind of come up to me like in thinking of fatalism with relore and that they don't necessarily get it and kind of how i don't know that the dothraki like they think that they live their

lives in that meantime and they know that eventually they go to the nightlands right they ascend from the mother of mountains up into the sky to ride the the greatest of the seas of all yeah it's very interesting you'll see that victarion's sailing, after all. Yeah, exactly. So Mira says that if she were Alebelly, she'd have jumped into the well to just be done with it. And that Alebelly should fight. And Bran should too. And Bran's only like, wait, what do you mean by that?

Why did you say me? And he wonders if he's drowning too. And then Mira looks guilty. She's like, like oh god and he can tell that she's hiding someone something so then he asks jojen what's going on and jojen says i dreamed of the man who came today the one they call reek you and your brother laid dead at his feet and he was skinning off your faces with the long red blade. Dun-dun-dun. Mira immediately rises, saying,

well, okay, then I'm just gonna drive a spear through his heart in the dungeons now and stop Bran's murder. Jojen says the guards will stop her, and Bran's like, I have my own guards, except, like, none of them are really, you know, guarding him right now. When I think about it, what Mira says she wants to do is exactly what the Karstarks try to do with Jaime. Oh, yeah, absolutely. And then they get stopped.

Well, kind of. But that's their hostage, so. They kill a couple of other hostages, which is, it was bad. Anyway. Mira, no, don't kill the hostages. No, Mira, yes, kill this hostage. Jojen's mossy eyes were full of pity. They won't be able to stop him, Bran.

I couldn't see why, but I saw the end of it. I saw you and Rickon in your crypts, down in the dark with all the dead kings and their stone wolves. No, Bran thought, no. If I went away, to Greywater or to the Crow, someplace far away they couldn't find me? It will not matter. The dream was green, Bran, and the green dreams do not lie. Buh buh buh. No, but the interpreters lie! They're just wrong.

It's not like they're lying. They believe it with their whole, you know, green dussy. Green dussy, Jesus fucking Christ. Someone needs to stop us. For $8,000 a month, we will stop. We will stop doing this podcast for $8,000 a month. In perpetuity.

Yeah, in perpetuity. So it's interesting that Jojen doesn't say that this is how Bran dies, though. I mean, obviously, visions imply that this is how he would die. But I do, again, feel that this all could have been avoided if Reek were indeed killed. Meera does have the right idea right because bran obviously doesn't know this how could he but like in the dream like what comes to be in actuality is the miller's kids yeah right how would any of them like we said how would they know that they can't actualize who the miller's kids are they don't know the miller's kids

how would jojen identify that as the miller's kids in his dream when he's never know the miller's kids how would jojen identify that as the miller's kids in his dream when he's never met the miller's kids his brain assigned the closest thing he could find which were two young boys about the same size and age that are taken and killed in order for bran to escape thus doing another switcheroo right with reek and Ramsey, honestly, it's a similar switcheroo to how they escape. Yeah, it definitely is. And I don't know, I'm kind of wondering, is there something like in the Green Dreams that shows definitively like this is someone's death, right? Because Jojen seems to definitively know that he has the knowledge of when he will die. Whereas for Bran, he does not say that this is going to be how you die this is your death he just gives him the vision i don't i don't know if there's a

distinction between that or not and we don't really get i don't get the sense that he's necessarily manipulating manipulating bran either however yeah we also don't know the extent of what the Three-Eyed Crow is manipulating Jojen to see or believe. We don't know if Jojen is being pushed in his thoughts, and maybe the Three-Eyed Crow is telling him, you need to tell Bran this because, or, you know, this is, you must save him. You must get him out of there. I am wondering how much interaction he's still having with Blood Raven through this because the way he's interpreting this dream also is a little

manipulated into get Bran to flee right it becomes a big part of making Bran believe Jojen and trust him and to think that Jojen knows what he's talking about and it's not unlike Melisandre's interpretations right like her

gray girl on a dying horse she wasn't wrong it wasn't aria but it was a gray girl on a dying horse and she doesn't know anything about alice karstark's plight until alice karstark shows up so of course the only plight she could see would be aria that they all know about who's suffering so in what they know about her aria's having a great time yeah aria's chilling in the east i wouldn't say great but i guess not in clash but an adventurous time adventurous i also think it's interesting that like you can't change green dreams right you can't change the fate from green dreams and that's the big plot for mira and jojen like we can fight against it but we see that you can change the fate of the interpretations yeah your interpretation might

not necessarily equal the green dreams so like here they are able to change the fate it's not bran and rick in the die it's someone else and now that i think about it because you're talking about the the other visions that jojen would have had if Jojen knows that this isn't where he dies, and as you said, right, it's kind of ironic because he's trying to get Bran to run, to flee, but Bran can't escape his fate. likely saw Bran north of the wall and maybe doing something with the three-eyed crow so this cannot be how Bran ends and he kind of knows that I think so too right like he knows that there's something greater that Bran is supposed to go do yeah he's seen like something of Bran outside of Winterfell so this can't be where it ends but also when you brought up Melisandre seeing the gray girl on the dying horse like like, and then talking about, like, that other vision of Renly at the Blackwater, it does seem that Melisandre sees some prophecies that are more

literal. Yes, yes. Some are, well, and some must be easier to interpret than others. Well, and some must be easier to interpret than others. Yeah, and also she was said to be the most talented, right, in being able to see C prophecies. Now, in terms of interpreting them, like, I don't know that she got an A there, but she was the most talented in being able to see them. That's like a pass-fail grade, to be honest. It's not fair to grade that in my opinion yeah it was i think a pass fail class right yeah she definitely passed they were like all right go out there go preach go preach girl uh there's a lot in this little chapter yeah slaps but i'm like how much can you fit in this chapter george there's uh a lot to think on a lot to gnash our teeth about

and kind of i don't know understanding the way prophecies and green dreams come to be come to be interpreted and seen and are shared absolutely and a lot of that ties in very well and thematically but not just them, in terms of foreshadowing things that happened in this book. Well, if you want to keep up with all of that and all the rest of what we're doing, of course, you can subscribe to us on social media. We are still at the moment on twitter.com slash girlsgonecanon, that's C-A-N-O-N. Or you can send us an email at girlsgonecanon at gmail.com. Yeah, and make sure that you are following and subscribing to us on your podcast streaming platforms. Give us a like over there, depending on where you're listening.

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that will be taking place on sunday december 18th from two to four eliana time and not just that but our eventual his dark materials series three rewatch that will be happening in january that our patrons host where they discuss weekly episodes uh that'll be such a blast i can't wait to gather back up for that, and a big thanks to our patrons for that. We will have other events, probably weekly, popping up soon, so go subscribe on Patreon so you can get those notifications. Absolutely.

As always, I have been one of your hosts, Chloe. And I have been another one of your hosts, Eliana. We'll be back next week with Brand 6 in A Clash of Kings. I saw it in a dream. Oh my god, I'm still thinking about Walder.

It's gonna come true. Yes, we're very sad. Yes, we're very sad. Well, Green Dream, see you next week. Goodbye.