Girls Gone Canon Cast - ASOIAF Episode 240 — ADWD Cersei I featuring Margo

Episode Date: January 10, 2025

New year, new book, same old Cersei (pretending to be #New for the High Septon). Margo helps us retrace the steps of Cersei's life and unpack the complexities of her familial and romantic relationships (which are kind of one and the same at times). Where to find Margo https://x.com/King_Margosha https://bsky.app/profile/kingcersei.bsky.social References from Lo Essay: A MOST UNCOMMON WOMAN: Cersei Lannister’s Gender Trouble Essay: Maidens, maidenheads, and the patriarchy- Virginity norms in ASOIAF Lo and Virginie's podcast, Ragman's Harbour Mentioned Quotes Susan Stryker definition: "I use [transgender] in this book to refer to people who move away from the gender they were assigned at birth, people who cross (trans-) the boundaries constructed by their culture to define and contain that gender. Some people move away from their birth-assigned gender because they feel strongly that they properly belong to another gender in which it would be better for them to live; others want to strike out toward some new location, some space not yet clearly defined or concretely occupied; still others simply feel the need to get away from the conventional expectations bound up with the gender that was initially put upon them. In any case, it is the movement across a socially imposed boundary away from an unchosen starting place- rather than any particular destination or mode of transition- that best characterizes the concept of ‘transgender’ that I want to develop here." From Leslie Feinberg's Transgender Warriors: “Didn’t Joan of Arc wear men’s clothes?” I asked a friend over coffee in 1975. She had a graduate degree in history; I had barely squeaked through high school. I waited for her answer with great anticipation, but she dismissed my question with a wave of her hand. ”It was just armor.” She seemed so sure, but I couldn’t let my question go. Joan of Arc was the only person associated with cross-dressing in history I’d grown up hearing about. I thought a great deal about my friend’s answer. Was the story of Joan of Arc dressing in men’s clothing merely legend? Was wearing armor significant? If a society strictly mandates only men can be warriors, isn’t a woman military leader dressed in armor an example of cross-gendered expression?" ibid. : "No wonder you’ve passed as a man! This is such an anti-woman society,” a lesbian friend told me. To her, females passing as males are simply trying to escape women’s oppression – period. She believes that once true equality is achieved in society, humankind will be genderless. I don’t have a crystal ball, so I can’t predict human behavior in a distant future. But I know what she’s thinking – if we can build a more just society, people like me will cease to exist. She assumes that I am simply a product of oppression. Gee, thanks so much." From Alica Spencer-Hall and Spencer Gutt's Trans and Genderqueer Subjects in Medieval Hagiography: "Marginalised identities are often written out of the historical record by those with the privilege of formulating “historical truth”. The Middle Ages is frequently viewed as a time “where men were men, women were women, everyone was the same race and practised the same faith, and no one was corrupted by technology, sexuality or democracy”. This is not how any medievalist worth their salt would put it. Disingenuous interrogation of the presence of trans people in history is rarely about the factual specifics of the past alone. If talking about trans lives is “anachronistic”, then “trans-ness [is] not an inextricable part of humanity or human diversity”. The transphobe’s dream is an imaginary medieval past in which everyone knows their (gendered) place. Similar themes emerge in the usage of the Middle Ages by the alt-right and beyond: those who fantasize a past in which everyone who mattered was straight, cisgender, white, and Christian. White supremacists and fascists weaponize the Middle Ages to justify their hatred. ------ Eliana's twitter: https://twitter.com/arhythmetric Eliana's reddit account: https://www.reddit.com/user/glass_table_girl Eliana's blog: https://themanyfacedblog.wordpress.com/ Chloe's twitter: https://twitter.com/liesandarbor Chloe's blog: liesandarborgold.com Intro by Anton Langhage

Hello and welcome to Girls Gone Canon Reads A Song of Ice and Fire, Episode 240. Cersei won in a dance with dragons featuring Margo. I am one of your hosts, Chloe. And I am another one of your hosts, Eliana. And yes, thank you for joining us this week and also not only kicking off a dance with dragons but kicking off the new year with us, Margo. Thank you for having me. I'm very excited to spend the day with both you and our girl

Cersei. I don't think we could have done it without you. I was so excited when we were casting for this POV. I was like, Eliana, what about Margo? What about Margo? But you are a huge super fan of Cersei. Of the Lannisters, I would say. When I think Lannister, House Pride, I think of you. If you haven't checked out Margo online, Margo has a Twitter account where they do these really great Song of Ice and Fire like questions. It'll just be like quick tell me something you're thinking about with Aeswaf or tell me your new fa- the POV character that you're getting into or the character you're getting

into. I've totally butchered it but you do some really great Aeswaf threads and some A Song of Ice and Fire just little quips that really engages the community and it's fun in the long wait actually because it gets a little barren out there, a little dry I would say for A Song of Ice and Fire fans with no content. I think that it's fun to like engage in a fun sort of like harmless way with people, just do a little community building exercises and it's nice because I think that there can be a lot of hostility which is unnecessary, but it's just fun. I'm thinking one of my favorite little threads that I would do was Bitey, where it's just fun. I'm thinking one of my favorite little threads that I would do was

bitey, where it's like I would pick two A Song of Ice and Fire characters and they would play bitey like in succession. So who would win? Yes, who would win? Yeah, who would win? So anyway. Hmm. So Jamie and Cersei would be Cersei. Yeah. Well, it depends on the day, I suppose. Hmm. Interesting, interesting. Yeah. Chloe also, a lot of people actually were like, you should have Margot on. You should have Margot on for this. Just so you know, you came highly recommended. Every time I was like, I was like, don't worry about it.

I'm so flattered to hear that. Yeah, I was the same. I was like, what an interesting suggestion. I was bouncing up and down. I was like, okay, I can't blow this. I can't just talk about Jamie and Cersei I can be a professional I can be cool. I mean you can though is the cool thing. That's the whole point Yeah, you can do whatever you want

It's your world. I just live in it. It's your podcast now Margo. No, yeah, I'm a girl gone. Oh, no Well Margo where online if folks are interested in finding you, can they find you? So I have not escaped from Twitter.com. You can find me at King underscore Margotia and on Blue Sky, which I do not use as often, but I will get there eventually. I'm just plain old King Cersei. You're the best person in the world too because I'm pretty sure your King Margo-ing is Margo from The Magicians. My favorite king? Yes? No? Maybe? No? No, but I can be.

No? What? You have to! Oh no, you need to! There is a King Margo, a King in the North Margo, actually. Yeah, you need to watch The Magicians. Okay, I will. The books are fine. They're you need to watch the magicians. Okay, I will. The books are fine. They're not as good as the show. The show's really fun. The show's like one of it's one of the very rare adaptations of a book that's better in some aspects. But oh, you're gonna Oh my gosh. I'm ready. At some point, they like, at some point they diverted my understanding is from I haven't

read the books, but you can tell that they diverted. They're like, fuck it, we ball. And they went all in on that. And they're like, maybe we're a musical now sometimes. It's incredible. It's pretty funny. Oh, I love that. Hopefully that's not funny.

I was always wondering if that was why, but no, I guess not. Okay, okay. What is your, tell us your etymology here behind King. The lore. You want the lore. So, um, so I'm really big on Russian literature. Also, I'm a very big Bette Davis fan. And also one of my middle names is Margaret. So I've taken that sort of as my first name. So Margo for Margo Channing, Margosha because Russia and then King because I love that. I wanted, okay, a fun piece of lore was that for the longest time on Twitter, I was Margosha the Great and then my partner was just like Margo Shat-He-Great. I'm like,

sorry. Yeah, no, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So that needed to change. I miss Margo Shat-He-Grate. I'm like, sorry. Yeah, no, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So so that needed to change. I miss Margot Shat-He-Grate, but their day was done. Yeah, that's life. I think we've all been there where something like a handle looks better in our brain than to everyone else. Yeah. Remember when my Twitter handle, Eliana, was lies and our goal? Oh Oh no. Yeah. I didn't realize lies in a garble. I didn't realize like you would like stop doing that because I remember you said the joke was everyone was saying that you're always looking for the D at the end there. Yeah. It wasn't a great joke, but it worked at the time.

I mean, this was like a decade ago. This is deep lore, but yeah, deep lore. Yeah. Well, we'll link these below for where to find you, and I'm really excited to have you on. Thanks for joining us and giving us some of your time, and it's gonna be a great episode. I'm very excited. Thank you.

And as you kick off the new year with us, someone else next week is gonna help us close out the Cersei chapters. Yes, our friend Alicia from Direwolf City will be on for Cersei 2 for the walk in A Dance with Dragons. And Alicia won't be the only spectacular guest we have next week because there will be another guest, our POV announcement. Yes. That's the guest.

Yay. That's our fourth wheel next week. Guest will be in the room with us. We'll be in the room... In the walls, maybe? Oh my god, maybe. Perhaps. But we're going to take a break also after that because we're, we just want to do that and we want to prepare and just

really, you know, put our whole GGCSE into these last two POVs. We'll tell you a little bit more about that schedule next week for our break that we'll be taking between Cersei and the penultimate POV that Girls Gone Cannon will be doing, which is going to be announced next week. So with that said, bit of housekeeping up top, last month at the end of the month we released a Patreon episode for patrons in the stranger tier and above the $5 tier and up and that was on our little secret. The Netflix spectacular movie featuring Lindsay Lohan and that guy that played Ezra in Pretty Little Liars.

He has a name we say it in the episode I can't remember it right now I got that out of my brain I took that out it's over. I know you guys got that out of my brain. I took that out. It's over. It's done. You guys gotta listen to the episode. I think it's Ian Harding. And I like that you introduced it that way because I don't think most people know his name. I only know it because I had to like look at the poster for it. And I was like, oh yeah, I guess that is his name. I understand. He has a name. Yeah. Yeah. His name's not Ezra? It should be. It should be. Actually, I will say it was a very fun episode.

It was a fun little romp of a movie, and we do talk about other media and our holiday breaks, as they were at the time of recording, so check it out over at patreon.com slash girls gone canon. And, Heliana, you know what's coming up on January 19th? No. Oh. Well, yes. I'm worried about that as well. It's us. It's us. It's Brappy Hour. I'm gonna leave that alone. You should. Eliana, what do we do at Brappy Hour and how could I get involved with Brappy Hour and what is Brappy Hour?

I have so many questions for you. I like how you make it sound like a, like a volunteer community volunteer. How can I get involved in Brappy Hour? Well, you can get involved by contributing to our Patreon. You too can join our Patreon and come to Brappy Hour events. And they are once a month. You also get access to our Discord. This is available for patrons in the thunder tier and above.

And yeah, there's um, fun and games, sometimes just chit-chatting, and also I don't know, it really just depends on each month. With the, you know, spirit asks of us. That's true too, with the vibe. We just go where the vibes take us. And you'll have access to the rest of our Discord channels as well too. Yeah, we have a lot of fun popping off. Actually, we have a brand new channel. I'm very excited to talk about it. I'll put it out there. We have a letterboxed feed now. So if you are on the Discord already, please go to the letterboxed channel

and put your username in and we will add you to the feed. But it's been really cool to see everyone's film watching the last few days in the new year. I'm already at a solid five. Thank you very much. Thanks to Wallace and Gromit last night. Yes. You were so excited about adding this letterbox feed

and you thought I was also excited about it. And I was like, oh my God. You were like, it was wrong kind of, oh my God. I was like, oh my God. And I was like of oh my god. I was like oh my god. I was like oh my gosh. I don't know about all that but all this you can find out about on the discord. There's lots of fun, fun internal ggc gossip and discourse. There's other ways that you can reach us, for example via email and you know what know what? I was wondering! I was like, I missed Lo emails. And we got a Lo email! We got one during this break. A New Year's miracle.

I missed you. And yeah, it's extensive in some of it. I think they've referenced before in other places. We'll link those. But so we're gonna we're gonna quickly summarize some of Lo's points, such as how Lo feels that Circe's relationship to gender is the most interesting in the story and also they agree with a lot of what we discussed in the episode with our special guest Rohan and the analysis about Circe through that trans lens and we'll link this below. You can check out Rohan and Lo's joint essay about this and also referencing Susan Striker's definition of trans. They also recently did an episode with their co-host, Virginie, on Ragman's Harbor about historical queens and parallels to A Song of Ice and Fire, Queens, where they talk a ton about how Circe is similar

to Christina of Sweden, who many people nowadays argue would identify as trans if that language had been available at the time. Christina also had some thoughts about using alchemy to transform into a masculine form, similar to what comes up in one of Circe's chapters. So I think that's really interesting. And there's also some reference to a couple of more quotes from a few scholars, Leslie Feinberg and Alicia Spencer-Hall and Spencer Gutt, that we shall also include in the show notes. And on a completely different note,

Lo also includes as a person who works in sex ed, they just got to throw out a couple of PSAs in relation to things that come up in Circe's chapters. For example, as you and I know, as all of us here gathered here today know, Chloe and I like to talk about how it's not treason if you don't come inside, which is true. That's a law. I mean, that's true. It's a fact. Yeah, it's in the text. Yes. It's true. It's a fact. It's in the text. Yes. It's canonical. It's canonical. It's in the text.

Yes. Thank you. Lo also wants to remind people that the pullout method doesn't work, and also, because people fail at pulling out all the time, which, you know, true, maybe it's just a misdemeanor at that point, if you didn't do it correctly. I'm sure I'm not a lawyer But also a second of all that there is sperm in the pre-com and there is the risk of STI So use protection and get tested. Yeah agreed. That is a big deal And you know, maybe we need a warning label like do not try the things that are set on this show. That's true

Yeah, you shouldn't I hope I hope everyone just knows that. I mean, listen to me, my god. Listen, do as I do, which is have protected sex, and not as I say, which is to pull out only. Not as Lancel and Cersei do. Plomp off. Right. Oh no. Or did. And I do like that Lo points out you can get STIs because when I think about it, I'm like, that's true, because Lo likes to also bring up Foucault every now and then, and Foucault in Discipline and Punish talks about, you know, the harms against the body of the king, and that's how, like, the punishment was meted out. But anyways, it's true. Even if you don't pull out, if it's unprotected sex, if you give the clap to the king, is

that also treason? If you give syphilis to the king through another conduit- The king gave syphilis to everyone literally just a year or two ago when he was alive. But that's not treason. That's not treason. It should be because he's there to serve his country. Whoever gave- His cont- Yes. That's a good point. But I'm just saying, I understand Lo's point. Lo is saving people's lives against crime. Don't commit crimes. Or do. I don't know. Lastly, Lo discusses

maiden heads and hymens and how they are myth and explains that hymens are folds of membranes. And Lo actually likes to use scrunchies to show how it can be stretchy when demonstrating in sex ed, which is kind of fun. The stretching and bleeding can happen the hundredth time you have sex just as well as the first time, and most people don't bleed the first time they have sex, and you definitely can't examine someone to see if they have had sex. This is just not possible, and Lo will also link this as an essay addressing these myths in Maidens, Maidenheads, and the Patriarchy, Virginity and Norms in A Song of Ice and Fire, and also Great Poignant

Agreed which is kind of why I think you and I are also like, I don't really know what happened there with Margaery. Just because they examined her, I don't really know what any of that means. It's in the text. I mean, she's a highborn girl and she's written versus her entire fucking youth. I don't really think it's even, like, a starter, the conversation around them. I agree with that. I agree with that. And all the other ones as well. The friends. Yeah. I mean, I don't know if I agree with all of the friends. That's true. Everyone's different.

You know, those girls are growing up too fast. That's all. That's all. There's a whole, like, second sub-story there that I would love to just read novellas about the Tyrell cousins. Yes. That would make me care more about the Tyrells. So, that'd be great. Oops, sorry. Oh, interesting. Oops. Can I get a hallelujah?

Oops. Oops. And that's one of the many reasons Margo is on the show today and why I wanted them on. So, already showing it off. Good for you. Thank you. Thank you, Lo. We miss you. And I know Lo's been busy at their own podcast, Ragman's Harbor. You guys gotta go check it out if you have not yet with Virginie, their co-host. Okay everyone get Limber. It's a lightning round. Everyone at home, you know how they usually work, but we did uh we did have a couple chapters in a Feast for Crows

still right to go over so we're gonna start with a Feast for Crows and then we're gonna head to a Dance with dragons where we're gonna remix it It's gonna be a little remix lightning round buckle up get ready We'll start off with a feast for crows Jamie seven. Jamie is busy restoring peace To the Riverlands he commands Peck to throw Cersei's letter into the fire loud booing. Yes Boo boo boo Cersei's letter into the fire. Loud booing. Yes, boo. Boo. Boo. Thrice booed. Oh, thrice booed. Samwell 5. Samwell lands in Old Town and the Cinnamon Wind after a grueling journey. He

was grueling. He's delayed joining the Citadel by our favorite red tape, Academia. Sam meets Marwyn the Mage. Antics ensue. And then we're gonna just strike through the appendix, unless you would all like for us to read all these characters, but we shan't. I mean, I always think about it. I always think about including it, but I haven't figured out my way yet. Just, just your favorite character mentioned in the appendix that doesn't get mentioned like in the book, maybe. Just like, oh, this one!

Little B! Oh no! A character of the day, right? Appendix character of the day, maybe. Michael would love that. Yeah, I was like thinking, I was like, I don't know if I can answer this question, but I know someone who can. Yeah.

Margo, take us into A Dance with Dragons. So A Dance with dragons. Tyrion 1 to 10. After murdering his abuser and his… girlfriend, Tyrion finds himself deep in the throes of depression. And on an odyssey through Essos, he decides to interject himself in the policies of the east, which soon will land in the west. While he starts his journey with a pisswater prince, each chapter brings him closer to the Queen in the East.

John Connington won the lost lord. With his time slowly running out, John Connington plans a home coming to Westeros. But he doesn't plan to go alone. Rhaegar's son Aegon is slowly revealed throughout the book. Can Jon make up for his failures during Rhaegar's final hours, or will he help cement Aerys's reign and help set King's Landing ablaze? I don't even think I have new things to say, but I do want to just do the Jon Connington chapters again. I know we just did them. That's the next POV.

Yes. Jon Con, then Sansa again, then Cat. Just do Cat forever. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway. Only Cat. Daenerys I-IX. Ruling does not prove easy, and the politics of the East are complex, even with advisors like Cerberus and Skahasmo Condak. I feel like that would just make it more complex anyways. And even the Green Grace. Quentin Martell shows up a little too late for the lines to be sewn and Daenerys takes a husband, Isdar Zolorak, to help secure her reign in Meereen. She must suppress the dragon, both within and the two that are chained in

the pits. But during her wedding gift to her husband, reopening the fighting pits, Drogon returns, and Dany is reminded that dragons plant no trees. Womp womp. So Jamie won. Jamie lifts the siege at Raven Tree Hall. While traveling to Riverrun in King's Landing, he stops at Penny Tree, disputed land between the Brackens and the Blackwood Keeps. As his new hostage, Hoster Blackwood, tells him some of the history of the village, Brienne of Tarth appears to tell

Jaime that he still has a chance at honor. Just one more boo, just for fun. Boo. BOOING LOUDLY. As soon as you said Jaime won, I was like, boo. That man. That man. What's wrong with him? I'm obsessed with him, but like, ugh, gross. He's obsessed with him too. I know. Cersei won in a dance with dragons. Cersei's very carefully laid plans have been shattered before her, standing accused of pretty much everything she herself has accused others

of. Cersei's isolated, abandoned, and finally she chooses to confess. We open the chapter with, each night seemed colder than the last. Cersei has no fireplace, no brazier, only a small window, letting in the sounds of the city. The septas who bring her food remain silent. She has no way of knowing when Jaime is coming to save her or if he can fight the poor fellows surrounding the Sept. She asks about Loras, hoping they'll tell her he's dead so she can fill his spot on

the Kingsguard, but the Septas say nothing. So starting off very strong here. Hers unfortunately- Strong? Mmm, yeah. Oh, oh no. Sorry. Oh no. Off the rails.

Which is good. Cersei is not in a gentle prison, but much like in Cersei 1, of A Feast for Crows, which is a great chapter, Cersei has two of the best starting chapters for the books. They're so delicious, like her first point of view, right? She does have a pest that she wants to hurry up in the dying and feast a moth and here a rose. Hmm I love that I love that she doesn't draw the parallel within herself in this moth being drawn to the flame trying to escape like it's impending doom Just like you go you go sweet girl like

Mm-hmm. Oh, I love that. Yeah, I get into this a little bit later or will just there's a lot of Characters that I associate so Cer just there's a lot of characters that I associate Cersei with. So one of the characters that I like to think about when I'm thinking about Cersei Lannister is Blanche Dubois from A Streetcar Named Desire. And a running theme when you read it is she's constantly compared to a moth and she's drawing herself deeper into these dangerous situations. Like she's lying. She's slowly leading to her own downfall and she's so unaware that this is

happening. But the stage directions just constantly hammer home. She's a moth. She is vulnerable and she's in danger the whole time so I loved Cersei one the first one and the second one is just a lot of fun because I think it's probably an intentional parallel with George because with the moth it's just like I wish I'd written down exactly what it was but she sees the moth in Osmond's or or Boris's lantern it's just like oh oh my god, just fly into the flame and be done with it. And then with Loras here, it was let him die, she thought,

and let him be quick about it. Anyway, so that's probably nothing, but it stood out to me. I really love that about Blanche Dubois, though, because especially like George, come on, George has to be a Vivienne Leigh guy, first all. Like let's be real, we know how George can be and also it's great because that character has such a good like the haughty vibe and that it's all about her like being past her prime or at the end of her prime and

things in life moving on without you and struggling to hang on and that's her C2AT. It's like dealing with constant decay and struggling to hang on and that's Cersei to a T. STACEY It's like dealing with constant decay and trying to hold yourself and your life together just by a string and seeing everything unravel while questioning everything about who you are, trying to maintain a sense of identity. I think Blanche lives a little bit more in delusion than Cersei does, but I'm not going to say that Cersei doesn't occasionally live in that realm. What? No, never.

Oh, Pervicara. Cersei? Never. Yeah. That's great. So starting off with Jaime and Cersei is because that is actually my specialty. Something that is a lot of fun to examine in their dynamic, especially as we read through A Feast for Crows, is ableism in Cersei's

arc and through Jaime too, right? We have a lot of isms with Cersei, but the one with their relationship is the ableism. Rohan mentioned something interesting about how losing a hand or any kind of limb is always like symbolic castration and we certainly see that Jamie believes this to be true. And Cersei makes some very hateful comments towards him. So it's just like, you think that maybe she agrees with that? But based on how this opens up, Cersei is afraid that Jamie is going to run at the head of an army to rescue her.

He's going to be reckless, he's going to swoop in and be her knight in white satin armor. That's a Sopranos joke. It's great. But we see all throughout, Cersei sort of uses this insult of his maiming as a quick hit to his ego because it's like the easiest blow to strike because even at the start of the series when we're in Aegon, like she wants him to be Hand of the King then. She wants him to be Hand of the King when he comes back. She's offering this because she's always wanted to rule with him.

Yeah, there's something really interesting in that like while Cersei says some of the most like savage, some of like the most like mean, cruel things to Jaime, right? Like she's absolutely cruel to Jaime about losing his hand. But to her, it's like not the same weight, right? Like it's almost like she doesn't weight it. Like this is just like something you say to the people in your family for her. Like, oh, well dad would just say this probably

and it would just be a normal thing. Yeah. Oh. well, dad would just say this probably and it would just be a normal thing. STACEY Yeah. I think something about them that I adore and also hate and is part of the reason they're so dysfunctional is that they have this sort of thought that they know the other person completely so they don't really spend time discussing anything. The loss of Jamie's hand, the sursy parallel to that is the loss of Joffrey. Neither of the twins takes the other person's loss seriously or the traumas associated with it seriously because they're like, it's not a big deal. Jamie's like,

we'll just make another son in place of Joffrey. That'll be great. And Cersei's like, I don't actually understand what's changed. They just don't understand what the other is going through at any given time. And it's, it's delicious. Wrong radio channels, basically. Yeah. I like what you said, like that they don't understand, but also at the same time, they know exactly what to say to hurt the other person. And notoriously, Chloe and I are only children. So we don't quite know this. But I was talking to a friend who has siblings who was saying something, like how the relationship she has with her sister is kind of different to an extent with the friends, because you

know each other so deeply and have been there that you know exactly what to say if you want to anger or hurt the other person or something, and I'm kind of wondering if there's like an aspect of it that's like that with Jaime and Cersei but it's like unconditional loathing, unconditional hatred instead of unconditional love. That's what they were raised on. That's what they think each has an allotment for, right? You know exactly how far you can stick the dagger in, but it turns out you can't. They're trying to rediscover, in a way, what they had and their boundaries before.

I think that they've probably always had sort of like pretty cutting banter between them. But they've also like Cersei hides a lot of her dramas from Jaime just as he does with her, right? Like he doesn't talk about killing Ares and the caches of wildfire and she doesn't really talk about, well, Maggie the frog and she goes out of her way to cover the extent of Robert's abuse, right? Yeah. Yeah. So I think that we see Jamie also throw Robert and Cersei's face quite a lot. Just like, Oh, you well those kids you made them Robert's children and our very first glimpse of them actually interacting in Brand 2, right? She's like, well, what if Robert replaces me? Just like, and whose fault is that? Like, whose fault would that be?

Like, they don't really have an understanding of like, just how deep these cuts are a lot of the time. Like, that's her job. Yeah. Yeah. Jamie, Jesus, we all have our fucking roles. Anyways, job. Yeah. Jamie. Jesus. We all have our fucking roles. Anyways.

Yeah. Sorry. Yeah. Goddamnit, Jamie. That's what I'm here to do. Just inspire people to revolt against Jamie Lannister. Oh my gosh. I love him.

I love him, but... It is kind of funny that, uh, so yeah, he doesn't run in front of an army per... Cause he wouldn't do it for her necessarily, would he? But he'd do it for revenge or for his own pride, because that's what he does in the Whispering Wood. Yeah. And then he gets caught. And then, I don't know. That's a pop fight.

Then the story, the plot happens. It's not the plot happening. You can't have that. Not the plot. Cersei's only visitor is Qyburn. Aww. Her world now consists of four people. Septa's Unela, with calloused hands, Moelle with cruel eyes and white hair, and Scalera, short, heavy, olive skinned.

They bring her food, water, empty her chamber pot, and wash her shift. Sometimes they read her prayers, but they won't answer her questions. She hates them as much as the men who betrayed her. False friends, treacherous servants, men who had professed undying love, even her own blood. All of them had deserted her in her hour of need. Okay, I just had this random thought, I'm sorry, I know we have like business, but like quick hot take. Unela? Or like thinking Daea and Vaea? Uneya.

Uneya. Uneya. Random thought that just came to me. I like that. That's all. All of Cersei in the prison here. And this internal monologue that she has, it's a fantastic parallel, I feel, to Tyrion during his trial for Regicide. There's actually so many interesting parallels between Cersei and Tyrion that I'm really seeing in this reread. Obviously- Interesting. Well, I guess she's on trial for Deicide. She did kind of- it's alleged that she was a little there with Regicide too. But turns out Tyrion was actually really innocent of Regicide. I don't know if you all know this from the books, but he was innocent of that crime.

Which I do make an argument for later on. Anyways, all these people were supposed to support Tyrion and who were supposed to care for him turned against him. You have the servants and then you also have Shae testify against him. I don't hold that against Shae. Bronn refused to fight for Tyrion, but Tyrion I guess at least had Jaime who didn't like really fight for him, but I don't know. He did I guess free him, and that's the person that Cersei is waiting for to free her, and I do think it's interesting that Jaime is the only one in his family who holds the promise of freedom for both of his siblings.

Yeah. Yeah, so Jamie, as a protector of his siblings and family, let's say, because that works. Interesting. He sucks at it. He sucks so hard. He doesn't actually do anything for them because he is so driven by his own pride and his own wants. So him trying to go and rescue Tyrion in the first place, it's a nice thought.

Maybe not so nice after your lover has just been like, hey, I think we're in mortal danger here. Our position here is precarious. We need to be as careful as possible to make sure that Ned Stark doesn't ruin things for us. We got to be as careful as possible to make sure that Ned Stark doesn't ruin things for us Like we got to be got to be on the low. We got to be on the ball We got to get all of our shit like and have it just down and Jamie also fails to rescue Tyrion He fails Cersei too by abandoning her and this isn't supposed to be like Jamie hour But unfortunately, like he is he is the shackle to Cersei. Anyway, it doesn't matter

Also dad died also because of him. Yeah. Yeah, so and so many kings so many kings so far and so many more That's true, right? Like so the worst of Jaime's acts to me was Not in freeing Tyrion, which is like one occasion of him actually being there to rescue his siblings, but in telling Tyrion about Tysha, like that's the worst thing that man's ever done, and he's throwing a child from a window. It was about like cleansing his soul. It's just like, maybe you should have just lived with that regret. Or set it way earlier, right? Like it's a thing that you've let fester for this time and you're gonna do it at the time that he was just trying for. Oh, yes. This is like not the time, you know?

No, you- Like Tyrion is like about to have a menti beat and you threw him over the edge. Well, and then he was like, I will have one now. Driving the knife in. So he's- he's going to be leaving like everything that he's ever known. He's being punished for a crime he did not commit. Jamie knows he didn't commit. Everyone, like, Tyrion's being punished unfairly and his whole life has been unfair. I don't know. I mean, the trial found him guilty. Yeah, right. Okay, yes. Yes.

The law would never lie. The law would never lie. I do think everyone else thinks he did it, like, earnestly, but anyways, please continue. I mean, he made himself so suspicious. Like- He just did other crimes. He did, like- Right away after. it like earnestly but anyways please continue. I mean he made himself so suspicious like he just did other crimes. He did like right away after. Honestly I'm not even like trying to like defend Tyrion it's just like in this moment where he's so vulnerable Jamie's just like oh by the way by the like I'm never gonna see you again but your your wife that you know the first one the

one that you liked yeah so about that it's like that is the worst thing. Like I and I can't understand why he would have ever thought that that was a good time to say that and that's why it's just sort of like why I think his redemption, if that's a thing, his self-discovery, it's just so flawed because he doesn't really know what he's going towards. He's just like I want to feel better about myself, and this has been weighing hard on my soul. I don't care about how you're going to accept it, you know? Anyway.

I think that is a huge thing, though. I mean, I think it's real in our world, too, where you see people that, you know, they suddenly are on a healing path, and maybe it's a different path than the other person, and to them, sucking the poison out of everything is what they think is going to make them feel better and that they owe it or that there's some karmic thing that you know you deserve to know better late than never. But it does bring up the question like is it kinder to let somebody live without that knowledge their entire life like do they deserve to know do they want to know? Do they want to know? I don't know. I feel like that's something in my, um, my early twenties, you know, since I'm in my early twenties, that's something that I'm exploring a lot more in my early thirties. Um, in my early thirties, like I feel like that's coming up so much in life of people who like, they seek redemption, they want redemption, they want to be redeemed. And like how that affects the people around them

isn't always good or fair. Yeah, I guess I have mixed things about that in regards to like, I think it was obviously the wrong timing. But as someone from whom a lot of the truth was hidden for me growing up, it's something that I do want like that honesty, whether or not like, you know, it obscures things or not. But I also know that like, when it comes to, whether or not it's redemption, in the real world, there are like programs, like there are some addiction programs, right?

That as part of the process, it is in fact, yeah, it is in fact, I don't know if it's like required, I don't know how strict it is, but part of their program is that those people go back to some of the people that they hurt and try to, you know, apologize to them about the people that they hurt and try to, you know, apologize to them about things like that. And I don't really know quite what all of it entails, but yeah. So I don't know. I just think it's an interesting to think about in regards to

like, you know, life being imperfect. It was more hurtful than it was helpful. And dad's dead. Yeah. Yeah, after it immediately. I mean, he was a pretty bad dad. Like... Yeah. Anyway. Well, and to be fair, a feast for crows is full of that, right?

Like, Ariane. Or, you know, just your hand in your... Your head in your hands in the sand as everything crumples around you, you know? Like, that's a big part of a feast for crows of things going completely wrong on purpose here from George, so. It's a feature, not a bug. It's supposed to make us think, y'all. I do like the language though, the foes and false friends, very much echoes of the language. That quote from Stannis, false friends and, I don't know, enemies all around me. There's almost something reeking of desperation, yeah, from the two of them in their moment of need.

I just wanted to call Stannis desperate. Stannis does quite have some need and he is pretty desperate, that's true. Things are bad for Stannis in this book. You know earlier Margot opened up with hers was a gentle prison right and that's the first line of the princess in the tower. was a gentle prison, right? And that's the first line of the Princess in the Tower. So that is the line you get from Ariane as she starts to tell us about the isolation in her tower and how her servants will refuse to speak to her and etc. etc. And I love that against Cersei's, right? Each night seemed colder than the last. So Ariane is also living the same life in Feast, but a gentle prison, which is a lot nicer than the prison that Cersei's in.

A lot less cold, still cold in demeanor and manner, but definitely an interesting chapter to read the parallels back and forth with. Plotting, scheming, religion, praying until she can't pray anymore. All the good shit. All the hits. There are a lot of hits in this chapter. It is kind of a recap episode too if you think about it with all the confessions. Yeah, it really is. It's a little bit filler, but it's needed to make the next chapter pop, which like, I will tell you that rereading

Cersei 2, I'm like, oh my god, that's a fucking masterpiece. That's a masterpiece of a chapter. Like, that is... wow. I reread it yesterday and I was like, George. Wow. Yeah. We'll get there soon. Next week. Uh, for now though. For now, amongst those recaps, Osney broke under torture, Auryn fled, and Orton and Teyna escaped to Longtable. Hera's Swift, Pycelle, Mery Merrentrant, and Boros Blount had abandoned her, and even Lancel turned against her. Her uncle refused the call to be hand,

and Jaime's betrayal was unthinkable. Qyburn hadn't returned, and she doesn't know if he was dead or imprisoned. Her captors ignore her threats, commands, and pleas, and her attempts at bargaining fail. She prays endlessly, but the gods remain silent." Cersei is such an actor. She is so committed to everything. It's delightful. I like this paragraph where she performs piety because it reminds me of like, Euron listing just like, no, there's no more godly man than I, right? And he lists all these things. It's like people pray for relief, they pray for protection against the silence, right? And then Cersei has her lists where she's just like, she prayed for relief,

for deliverance, for Jamie, loudly. She asked the gods to defend her and her innocence silently she prayed for her accusers to suffer painful deaths. She prayed until her knees were raw and bloody until her tongue felt thick and heavy and she was like choke on it. And like she prays to every face of the god which I like that Cersei like faith isn't all that important to her as a character which is interesting when you compare her to Cat. And it's just fascinating to see because she even prays to the stranger and she just like, yeah, and he poured in the storm. Yeah, I'm going to need all the prayers that I can get. It's just this frantic, desperate sort of like hope that she can get out of this somehow. Yeah.

And then with her praying for relief deliverance for Jamie, it ties back to when has he ever been a particularly good protector for anyone except Brian that one time? Sorry. KS Yeah, he actually, no, you're right. He actually hasn't. He hasn't been. He's been a good, I guess, being on the offensive, but never on the defensive. And even then he got caught. So. That's true. Yeah, as y'all were saying earlier, like, you can really sense the desperation in all

of those prayers. And amongst those, I like this one, it's kind of funny. She goes, she had invoked the Mother's mercy, appealing to the natural sympathy of one woman for another, but the three shriveled septas must have put their womanhood aside when they spoke their vows. And I think this is hilarious to me because I'm like, ah yes, the natural sympathy of one woman for another, like the one the natural sympathy you showed her Feliz, Cersei, of course, or the ones for Bera and her young mother. Yes, so sympathetic. And all the people under the red keep during the Blackwater, yes. But also-

In for a bit of a rape. Yeah. I do think she showed some sympathy for Sansa. That's why I did not include Sansa in there. It was a twisted one, but I do think she showed sympathy for Sansa in the twisted way, so that's why Sansa's not on the list. I also love this line in that specific quote of like, you know, the septas must have put their womanhood aside because there is something interesting about the transcendence or like the different sort of role one's gender takes within religion. And it seems as though what we've been discussing with a lot of Circe's relationship to gender throughout this chapter was the idea of wanting to put that womanhood aside and therefore claim more of the power that men are afforded. Absolutely. Something interesting about Circe is that she'll try to convince herself that

things are true, that there are true truths, right? Just like, oh yes that she'll try to convince herself that things are true, that there are true truths, right? Just like, oh yes, she's trying to appeal to the sympathy, the natural sympathy for one woman for another when we get in her next chapter that she doesn't really believe that that exists or it seems like it can only exist in certain scenarios because during her walk she hears someone say something awful to her and it was a woman who called. And Cersei thinks women are always the cruelest where other women are concerned. So I think that it's interesting that she has like a muddled view on how actual women

behave or how people are meant to behave. Like she understands the rigid structure which she was brought up in and she knows how to play the part but she doesn't have like actual experience with it. Like she understands the transactionality of like these are the checklist of things a lady should do. Yeah. Ladies should behave this way. You should, you have to do this list of things before you can go off and have it actually. Exactly, yeah. You said it so much better than me. You're so clever to see it. Thank you.

Oh my god, well struck, Margot. Well struck. Oh, I'm crying. Well struck, your grace. I do really love you calling that out. I think there's an aspect of it, not necessarily like, cruelest, but I think there's an aspect of it that's true that we discuss in this series and in Hot D in regards to like the role that women can play in reinforcing patriarchy and those rules. We see it with, again, coming back to Sansa, but not Sansa, the way that Septa Mordain was pretty cruel in a way to Arya, right? And trying to get

Arya to adhere to those rules. Or also, I don't know, this is something we actually talked about during our Ella Enchanted episode, our Patreon Ella Enchanted episode of like, I think that they lost the focus of the message of Ella Enchanted when it came to the movie. Yeah, and the role that, you know, Tony Morrison's essay of Cinderella's stepsisters is all. Yeah, it's almost like, I don't know, it makes me think you put a huge piece of pie out and then animals all descend on it and whoever gets the biggest piece is the winner, you know, in some ways and for in girl world, that's also true. Oh my god, back

to Lindsay Lohan. Yeah. Oh my god. In girl world. In girl world. Oh my god. Yes. Monkey noises. That is it though, you know, in some ways. And like, Cersei was born with a bigger piece of that pie than some other woman have been, and she wants to protect that piece of pie so that she can remain having the biggest piece of pie. I mean, that's what she wants. That's how she was raised amongst the men in her family that were also raised and also act that way. Exactly. And Jaime has a line in A Feast for Crows where he's thinking about the bullying that he endured and he's thinking about merit for a merit, the merit of merit. And it's just like, boys are always cruelest. Boys are the cruelest creatures on earth. And it's

like, Oh, Jamie, Oh, Jamie, Oh, Cersei. Oh, my sweet summer child. You've never been in middle school. Could you imagine them in middle school? Oh my god. Worse. They would have been like, bad. I could have made them better then, but oh well. It is, yeah.

And I know people talk about the ways that bullying happens differently within like, amongst boys and girls. But, um, just, do you think, I can't really see Jamie being bullied. Um, I could like, I mean he was bullied by Cersei, I guess, whatever, but I'm just like thinking amongst other children. So my dad is kind of like a jock, but he's not. He is! Okay, interesting.

But he was, in high school he did cross country and track, but like those aren't the cool Jocks. Oh, yeah, it's like I think that he grew up thinking he was a cool jock But he was actually maybe just a little less cool And I think that's Jamie in some aspects like I think Jamie like we look at him as a jock, but also I Don't know. Maybe he's actually not as cool as he thought he was. Like, he's a little, like, that's why he likes Hoster Blackwood, right? Because Hoster is nerdy.

And Jamie's a little nerdy, like, he's not just a jock. And this is the nicest thing I'll say about him today. I'm just kidding. That he's a little nerdy. That's a nice thing to say. It is. It is nice. We're nerds.

Thank you. I mean, maybe you all, sorry, not me. I'm very cool. I'm not a nerd. I'm a jock, obviously. Powerless and frustrated, Cersei longs for the strength of Jaime or Robert to possess that kind of strength, but her captors are too strong. Her son and the realm depend on her. She has to escape. We see throughout Cersei's arc, and in her thoughts a lot lot that she should have been born a man and how she wishes she had that power and her views of masculinity being what they are. I don't know how that would all play out for her, but I think that she would be

happier overall if she was. But something that I'm most certain would have made her life better and it's just like heresy, I guess, as a major JC shipper, is her life would have been so much better if she hadn't been born a twin. Yeah. Like, because she has that knowledge in dressing up as Jamie, like, and experiencing firsthand just how much better the world is to the men

and boys around her. And if she hadn't had that, like- That constant comparison. Right? Ignorance is bliss. Yeah. And some of the lessons that she learns that she clings onto most fiercely,

like you can't eat love, wasn't one that was meant for her. That was something that she overheard Tywin telling Jamie. I can't imagine Tywin was much softer with her at all, but I don't think that he was teaching her that love was poison, you know? Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, he probably sent her away to Receptos for that. Yeah. Yeah. That is really interesting. You don't know what to compare it to. You don't know what you're missing. Yeah, exactly. I always think that it's interesting, Robert, what he wants to do at the end, what he tells

Ned, you know, let's go be sellswords and fuck and drink that's what Cersei would love to do she would love to be a sellsword a second son in Essos trying to like make her own way fucking fighting drinking I mean I could see it yeah on the beach or body yeah like if she had been born a man and just could inherit Casterly Rock yeah I think that that would have that would have been so good for her and she would have been well suited to that and she would have loved it. I mean you look at it with Catelyn right and Edmure and that Catelyn was Rey's only son her whole life and then Edmure showed the fuck up.

Which I mean, love Edmure, love Edmure. But obviously Catelyn didn't necessarily internalize that too much. You have to internalize it a little, but she didn't do it as much, but it's just not fair. It's just not fair. Cat just had a better education too, it seems like. True. I mean, Hoster, he sucks, but he seemed to like value her as a human being. At least tell her these are the things you need to do as an adult.

If you take my place. Yeah. And it doesn't seem like Kat was as isolated throughout the entirety of her life. Where Cersei's like has been a princess in the tower basically her entire life. She's had no external experiences outside of what she's been told, right? Like and what she needs to focus on. And like, Ty, when dying, is the first time that she's actually sort of free in a way. Yeah. It's, yeah, I think that like, Hoster, as you said, not great dad, but I think we were,

was this like, Rappier, we're talking about this, joins a club with Balen of good parent to maybe one child. And that was a Catlin. And I don't know if we don't really know his relationship with Edmure. Liza kind of got shafted of being like middle child. And it's interesting because Circe, despite being the eldest, does she get a bit of that middle child syndrome? But I think it's entirely different to, you know, in terms of like all the other circumstances that are at play. Yeah, because also like boy children come first, you know, like of course she's middle technically because the boy children automatically go to the front of the fucking line.

Yeah. I think all of Tywin's trauma trio, they give middle child energy as a middle child. It's like, it's like, oh, all of you. All of them. For Tyrion, I think this is almost like special. It's because the middle children, I don't know if this is true or not. Again, no siblings. Like do they go like fly under the radar a bit more?

Whereas Tyrion's like, hmm, I guess I will just take all of the very obvious abuse. But I don't know. We'll get there one day. Anyways. We'll figure it out. Yeah. You never know. Speaking of get there one day. Anyways, we'll figure it out. You never know. Speaking of timing, um... Almost shoes.

Almost shoes. Almost shoes. Speaking of timing, this is not important, but they give us a little more information about the hours of the day, right? Like they have, they give us the order of like, we have the hour of the owl and then the hour of the wolf and then the hour of the nightingale, and it like corresponds to the moonrise and moonset and Like one day I think one day we'll know the whole clock like for surezies If you just put it down on paper at this point Aliana and mapped it out I think you'd be like 50% of the way there someone like kind of did on like the wiki

But it's kind of I think I would say it's more of conjecture But it's kind of, I would say it's more of conjecture. Because it's not really confirmed in anything yet. And I just want George to tell me, this hour is this hour, this hour is this hour, right? And we need to make you like a big clock. Yeah. The comfy couch. That's what I- oh yeah. Wow. But no, we need to make you like a clock that has Velcro on the names so that we can move it around until we get it right.

Oh, that would be cool. I have plots, I have plans. Like with the little felt thingies like in kindergarten. Mm-hmm, exactly. I'm about it. Interactive. So what's not so interactive is being in jail. Moonrise and Moonset, Dusk and dawn, they staggered past

like drunkards, this is about those hours, and within here we have Circe's chapters using the moon for the telling of time. This is like not a groundbreaking observation or anything, but what I do like about it is it feels cohesive with the rest of the book because Bran's chapters do give us an idea of the passage of time for him, you know, below ground and being like, and the moon was like a sickle in the sky, the moon was like a blah blah blah in the sky. And then you know, like how long it's been. And I don't know, I guess Cersei was like, Cersei is just trying to like survive a little right now, because she's not really chronicling the phases of the moon as each day passes.

And I do think- She's not into it as much, yeah. I mean, she's just trying to get any amount of sleep or lord knows what. And while she is among the princesses in the tower, like Margaery, Aryan, and Sansa, I'm realizing, oh yeah, the princes, single S, plural, like Bran and Jon, they're not in the tower, it's princes in the underground, it's reverse. The prince is in the basement, that's it, that's all I have. Princes go below the earth. Yeah, exactly.

And I don't know, some of this loss of time in Jail It Reminds Me Again also have like Ned's chapters. But she does have it better than Ned did because he loses all temporality entirely because he's like, I don't have any windows, it's dark, what the fuck is going on? I'm having fever dreams. I also love this part where she thinks that, oh, my son and the realm have need of me and I'm like, I don't know that they do, but I do know someone who has need of you. Varys. Like I can imagine there's like a scene somewhere if we had a Varys POV he's like I have Need of Cersei. If Cersei was here no one would be blaming me for anything. Right, he'd be like everything's going according to Keikaku. That's Varys.

Oh my gosh. It's like Elijah and Hannah and girls. Someday. Maybe. I don't know. One day I think I'll get there. Who knows? It's a classic. It's like Sex and the City, but for millennials. So one thing I will say is that I think that Tommen actually does kind of have needs of

her. That's true. Right? Like, I think you might miss his mom and there's a lot of confusion. And something about Tommen being very coddled, just like he's like he's a little bit of an immature eight, like an eight-year-old, right? And it's he's sweet and I love him, he's perfect, but he's still just a little boy who's gonna just stamp every document that you put in front of him. Like he needs sort of guidance and he needs his

mother. Even if you have a bad mother, a mother is a good thing to have. And Cersei lost hers at the age of eight as well, which didn't really do great things for her. So yeah, I think Tommen actually does kind of need her. No, you're right. He does. And I do think that is, to what you're saying, what has been told to us every chapter, Tommen constantly saying in different words and making these bids of like, mom, I need you, but in different, different words. Dang. Heartbreaking.

Poor Tommen. Actually, yeah, in a lot of ways. Poor Tommen. Fuck. Well, I don't think his pain is going to last much longer now. Oh, poor boy. Sersi finally confesses to Septa Unela, begging to be taken to the High Septon. Don't fuck with me, Aliana, I swear to fucking god. That night, she dreams of Jaime and their living

son, waking, feeling almost like herself again. Sepcepta Moelle and Scalera rejoice at her decision to confess, and Cersei is thrilled by hearing the words, Your Grace, again. I love Cersei Lannister more than anything. So one thing that I will say is that when she finally does confess, we have the first sort of sweet dream of hers. Like she has a couple dreams that aren't horrible, but Cersei is also often plagued by nightmares. Starting with like her first chapter in A Feast for Crows. Like she's, she dreamt she sat the iron throne high above the mall and that turns real dark real fast.

And then here when she's finally granted sleep relief from this torture that she's been enduring for who knows how long now, the owl and the wolf and the nightingale slip by for once, their passage unseen and unremarked. While Cersei dreamed a long sweet dream where Jaime was her husband and their son was still alive. Like, how can you not love her? That's so sad.

That's a simple desire. And Cersei, I think her children often are like an emphasis in her dreams. Like even with the horrific, like after the blue bard, she thinks like, please don't hurt my children. Like that's her priority. So when there are moments where she thinks about her kids, like I think that there is room for doubt when she's like, everything I do, I do for Tommen. It's like, okay, no, not everything. But I think she really does genuinely care for them. And in her dream world, it's not for power here. I want my dead child back. And I want to be loved. It reminds me of the show's interpretation of Daenerys' visions in the House of the Undying, where it turns out she was going through the ruins of the throne room, and perhaps not

actually winter, but in the tent she does see this fantasy of just Drogo and their child, and that there's a desire for companionship, just a little bit of warmth and like, perhaps, I mean, that is like in many ways a base human desire connection, but all these other things sort of convince us that that is not what we want or need. Yeah. I think if anything, I mean, George, I don't know that I plan to ever be a mother, but George does a really great job of not sympathizing motherhood, but telling us that it is important still even though this is a world where maybe people don't seem to think it's an important

thing because it's a thing that a lot of women do in this society. But George does a really great job of never having it be less than admirable, right? And you see that for Cersei, and I think for a lot of mothers, from what I've understood from my friends and family, like, you know, they're a part of you. They never leave you. Like, even though they leave your body, like, their DNA is a part of you now. You are a part of them and they are a part of you.

And like, that's something that you live with one way or another. And for Cersei, how could she ever let that go? Yeah. And I think that even though she does have this resentment for her womanhood and all the baggage that goes along with that, including motherhood, she doesn't resent it entirely. She finds joy in it.

She remembers being very happy nursing Joffrey and even just little moments where it's like, look how sweet my child is. Like look at Tom and playing with his kittens. She does want to protect them. She does care for them. And I think it's easy to just sort of like fall into, oh well, she loves them for what they can do for her, like the power that they can give her. And I don't think that it has to be one or the other. Yeah, it can be. Yeah, I agree. Right?

Like she does love her children. She is capable of love. That's a part. It's just, yeah. I mean, my mom had me and told me like, well, yeah, free labor, right? Like you're my child, you're going to be doing dishes and shit. Like tell me feudalism's dead. But I mean, you like your child for that too.

You can love your children and still like have aspects of that love and care be toxic. Yeah. Oh, oh my god. Yeah. So absolutely. Yeah. I agree exactly with with what you're saying. Yeah, we'll get to a little more of that too. Well, we've been getting to that all these chapters. Nevermind. We've already got that. Nevermind. Ignore me. Yeah. That, ignore me. Random question, but still related. Do you think Tywin loved his kids now that we're here? No. As an extension of himself? Okay, yeah, I think that the extension of oneself metaphor applies much better for Tywin than it does with Cersei because like, ugh, because he's always

like had this trauma connected to his father and and laughter and joy and happiness, right? So he wants to see his house thrive. So he's just so ruthless. He uses his children more as pawns and less as people, which is why like, I don't think he even loved Jamie, frankly. Jamie was just going to be the key to continue the family line, right? He was going to continue the legacy. Cersei was also going to do that, which also I think leads to why there are such gaps in her education because he's just like, you are here to have as many heirs as possible and get Lannister blood on the throne. And then Tyrion, he's like, I don't know, drown in the sewer, I guess.

But like, I think that Tywin loved his siblings. Yeah. But with his children, I think that there were much more tools. Does that, did that answer your question? Yeah, I was just curious because we were on this discussion. So I was like, why not? Let's ask it. Plus, I think, like, after Joana died too, it was a very... it's like when Ned kills Lady. Sorry not to just bring that up unprompted.

But when Ned has to kill Lady, and like, his relationship with Sansa almost immediately is severed, in a way, right? And so when Joana died for Tywin, I think, like, his relationship with them was completely severed in a way, right? And so when Joanna died for Tywin, I think like his relationship with them was completely severed and he kind of withdrew in that manner. I don't know. Yeah, I agree. We'll find out more in Blood and Fire. Yeah, I think part of the reason that I'm partial

to the Valenkar prophecy or just Maggie the Frog's inclusion at all is because I don't think Cersei is completely unreasonable. I think that as she grew up, like she might be like, huh, I've known all of these women who have died in childbirth. This seems to be a very common occurrence. I, maybe, maybe this is just one of those things that happens. Like the history is full of it. And yeah, there's always a bit of you killed my mother, but it's never as deep as it is with Cersei's. And I always thought that was kind of shallow.

Even if Tywin is constantly hounding that into her head, just like I feel like, especially after she has her own children, she wouldn't be completely clinging to this idea, like this hatred. So I think that when she has that sort of extra push and an extra reason besides like, daddy says that my baby brother killed my mother, and then it grows into the witch in the woods says that my baby brother is going to kill me.

It's just like I was right for hating him all this time, you know? I don't know. CB It reinforces. It reinforces all of that fear and that paranoia and keeping like the succession It's just like, I was right for hating him all this time. You know? I don't know. I don't know. Yeah. It reinforces. It reinforces all of that fear and that paranoia and keeping like, like the succession metaphor, right? Of the cages and Roman liking to be put in the cage in succession, you know? Yeah.

Exactly. That very much comes through when it comes to Tywin and how he handed out love and when and why he handed out love. And especially when you get your own family. I think there's a freedom, right? It's cyclical, but there's a chance, and we see it a lot in Aeswaf, there's a chance at new life.

The idea of birth and rebirth and born, that's a chance at freedom and a chance to change things, even if it's just a little bit. And I think even for Cersei, that's something, right? Cersei had that kind of small freedom of having her own family in a way, and that makes it even more protective when you think the woods witch told me

Tyrion was going to kill me, and oh, by the way, now it's evolving, and he's gonna kill my children over and over again? Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, well, because she only really starts taking the prophecies seriously,

or at least to our knowledge, when Joffrey dies, because that's sort of like everything else could be coincidence. Right? And then it's like, oh, oh shit. Wait. Cersei is thrilled, as they said, at hearing the words, your grace again. It's like a drop of water in this desert, a small kindness that really can lift you up and make you feel a little bit better about being alive. Maybe all is not bleak, but she's gonna be like, she's gonna be kicked right back into the dirt very soon. Yeah, I actually really love that detail of where she's like, oh my god they call me your Grace. And I think we're gonna come back to that in a bit. Something that I

thought was really fun here is, you know, when she does finally, she is finally like, I'm ready to confess. She says that it was the crone who came to her with holy light and showed her that wisdom. Yeah, it's, um, I grimace emoji'd at this. I felt like it deserved a grimacing emoji. Poor Cersei getting served all of her utter irony in like two chapters. It's not delicious what she's getting served. In Dungeon? And kind of talking about, yeah, kind of talking about her place in society and role as a woman and like the Crone as a part of the cyclical expectation, right? You have the triple goddess, you have the maiden, the mother, the Crone. And they're not, yes, in mythology they're kind of separate, right?

You have the Persephone, you have Hekate, and Demeter. Like, you have all these three as the characters, they're different people, but also the idea is they're cyclical, right? And in Westerosi society, Cersei is kind of like being told it's over for her. Like she, the loss of the mother role, your child died, you are no longer a mother, you are being ferried to the next role of being the crone, you need to submit. Why are you not submitting and just relenting and becoming the crone? And she refuses to relent in this chapter, which I really love. She's using words she doesn't believe in to confess to get her out of the

Sept hell hole, hearing she's a queen for a moment, you know, her eyes sparkle up, like we said, but with the crone as a societal expectation, like at the ripe age of 36, it's over. Right? She's past her prime. 34, whatever, dried up. Get out of here. I'm so dried up.

Take her, take Aliana to a farm in the north and let her run and play and You know, she's devalued she's depreciated. It's over in their eyes. She already wet a king had his kids maybe quote unquote and If she's not gonna marry again, then it's time to push her into the elderly matron archetype. And it's exactly how she feels about the Sceptos, right? She looks at the Sceptos as if they're useless, that their Scepto-hood, their shriveled, their dried up, their symbols of what she fears becoming irrelevant and powerless, right? With the Sceptos almost like a crone figure in some ways, that ancient divine feminine

wisdom, right? But that wisdom isn't powerful usually in her eye or useful in her current struggles, so Cersei's not really ready to embrace that transformative power of the crone's wisdom. But I mean the whole idea of the crone is the crone is the next phase of life where you have trials and tribulations, but you learn from them and you're able to get through them because of what you've learned with that ancient wisdom. Cersei's not ready for that. She's not ready to pass into that era.

I think it's a big case of transformation versus theory. She's not ready to accept. She's not ready to live and let live and move on. She looks in the mirror and she'll be fueled by her rage, not her wisdom. She's gonna be driven by that refusal of accepting that change. And I don't know, there's something very interesting about it with her, like that shame transforming into fury, especially in the next chapter. The next chapter is a huge trial for Cersei, a very big trial, and it does kind of break her in some ways, where this here and her confessing her sins, she doesn't

actually really confess all of her sins here. She gets away with a lot, and she knows she's getting away with a lot. She knows that she's manipulating it and wording it to get away with a lot. But yeah, next week is the real trial. Yeah. Because she still has to go to a trial, is what they said. Well, she still has a trial after next week, apparently. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's kind of fucked up. Yeah.

I really like that you've examined the way that the crone operates in contrast to the maid and the mother. And as you said, right, part of it is like the cyclical nature. But to an extent, like they're considered also to be as one and also like a facet, you know, like the three, three face gods. Faces. Yeah, the three faces of the moon. Yeah. There's only three.

But it's interesting because also like she's so afraid, we've been discussing this often, but it's only really hitting me now that she's so afraid of becoming the crone. And it's not just the idea of wisdom, the maid is something that's defined in regards to the value of one's sexuality, right? The purity and the value that it has to, I guess, male sexual desire, the mother to an extent defined by one's service to having been, I guess, impregnated and then therefore in service to something outside of oneself. The crone, yeah, there's age, but there's no necessarily any reference to it sexually or anything like that. The crone is independent, stands in and of itself and actually

represents the sort of freedom from those shackles that she's like been so afraid of from the things of how she feels like the flesh and sexuality are imposed and like define her. And the crone kind of offers I think that sort of freedom if only she would accept it. And it makes me think of offers, I think, that sort of freedom, if only she would accept it. And it makes me think of like, I'm gonna plug this podcast. I haven't finished listening to it, but that I've been enjoying by Julia Louis Dreyfus, whom we will come back to also to an extent later on this, this episode. But she has a podcast called Wiser Than Me, where she interviews women that are older than her

and their lived experiences. So they're pretty much like women who are older than the age of like 60. Like I think at the time that she started this podcast. So would highly recommend includes guests like Isabel Allende and Jane Fonda and other such people highly recommend. I just love the concept. I love a good concept. Yeah, right.

I'm like impressed by a good podcast concept. I'm like, damn, why didn't I think of that? Honestly, just having Julia Louis-Dreyfus as the concept, I'm in. Like if that was just the concept, I'm in. Perfect concept. Great concept. Absolutely. I'm impressed.

Yeah. Yeah. So I like what you were saying about the Crone and something that's also interesting about the Crone as like a religious figure, a symbol, a face of this many-faced God, right? Is that everyone respects the Crone, right? In her wisdom, she guides you from the darkness. And a point that I was gonna, it's not a full thought that I've had or that I can explain, but I was thinking about Cersei maybe in her aversion to aging. What if I just jumped

the crone step and just became the stranger? And I think that the stranger is an interesting symbol because whatever they are, it varies based on the person who's praying, right? You could view it as death, as evil, as cruelty or relief, deliverance, freedom, right? And I think that, and this is why it's not a fully fleshed out thought, but I was just thinking with Jamie and Cersei describing each other as the stranger, it's like, they've become a stranger to me. I thought she was the maid, but she's been the stranger the whole time. And then you look at a description of the stranger,

which is the stranger was neither male nor female, yet both. Ever the outcast, right? Things like that, both unknown and unknowable. I think that, like, doesn't that sound kind of nice? Like, just be unknown and unknowable. I think that like, doesn't that sound kind of nice? Just be unknown and unknowable to be feared, but also not? Like, I don't know. To be free. Thoughts. Yeah, freedom would be nice. But I like, yeah, I like what you're saying about the crone though, like, because there would be that sort of respect that Cersei's always wanted her whole life.

Mm-hmm. Well, it's, it is that freedom, right? Being unknown in it. Because when you think about both Jersey... Wow, I couldn't find their names, Jersey. Wow, she's a shipper. Wow, when you think about... One day. ... me and Circe. To an extent, I would say, of the seven faces, the two closest to the stranger are the warrior and the crone. The crone as one who is in the passage of life, closely.

Once we get older, theoretically we die, right? That doesn't always happen in A Song of Ice and Fire, as we've learned. But the warrior to an extent delivers people to the stranger. So both of them have that proximity while also inhabiting that space of also being the stranger. Both of them are close to it. And I think that the stranger would have been, now that we have read the draft of the AFFC prologue, the Athec prologue, the stranger actually would have been looming large over the book. And especially if this chapter had originally been part of what would have been that single book

and not spaced out. And so I think it makes a lot of sense for that to be there. STACEY And also like the stranger is the god that Tyrion prays to. KS Oh, I didn't catch that. That's interesting. STACEY Yeah, because he's the outcast, right? And he lights a candle for the stranger. So I don't know, I think it would be interesting if all three of them could be combined or attached to the stranger in some way. And like everyone is, but- That's so like him. Yeah.

That's so Tyrion. He's so different. He's very edgy. He's a very much an edgy lord. I mean, I like that about him, but- Yeah. Well, Cersei asks if she can bathe first, but Septa Unea insists that her soul's cleanliness is more important. As they descend the stairs, Cersei asks about Tommen's well-being, and Scalera reassures her, mentioning that the Queen's constant presence.

And Cersei's like, I am the Queen. She tries to gather more information about the trial, but Unea cuts her off and they descend into silence. Me and some of my friends, when House of the Dragon was on TV, we were a little upset that Alice in Hightower got to have all of the baths that Cersei deserved. Because Cersei invented bathing, right? And there is just so much interesting stuff with her. In the notes here, I wrote Lady Macbethism and Blanche Du Boisism, but it's more just themes of cleansing throughout and what it represents to be clean, to be pure, to be feminine, to have relief, to wash one's sins away. And in this circumstance, Cersei is obviously filthy. she's been in jail. Like she actually does need a bath, but I don't know.

I think that just an interesting repeated theme in her story just, and like she is so attached to like how she's perceived, right? Appearances. Yeah, I like how you called out the Lady Macbeth part because there's that line on, Oh God's unsex me now, that I love. And also, I don't know, this is an unimportant thought, but we're talking

about the baths and I'm like, Circe would pull a bell, like a bell Delphine and sell her bath water. But anyways, stop Circe's bath water. Some of our, I know some of you listen, some of you on this call might even buy it. I think so. Hush now. Margot's face there like what? Is that, is that an offering? What tier is that? I know some of our freaks out there listening would totally buy that too. I know what y'all

get up to. I know what that search history and that AO3 history says. The dungeon bath water. Dungeon bathwater. Dungeon bathwater. No, stop. Oh my god. What they call it like, yeah, I don't know. I also love the details. You can only get so horny here, okay? Geez.

We can brand it Your Grace, which is what Circe rejoices at being called just now. Your Grace. Wait, is this a patron gift? God, God. Where are we? We're not actually gonna sell like anyone's actual bath water. I'm sorry, first of all, I take showers at baths. No, we would say it's Cersei Lannister's bath water.

Oh yeah, of course. Sure, sure. Yeah, yeah. I don't even like- We can talk about this offline. We'll think about it. I just like don't know what this offering looks like. I'm gonna have to think. I have a whole idea already.

It's literally in my head. Yeah, like a glass bowl, like terrarium with a cork in it, like a mage spell potion, whatever, you know, a belt potion. Sure. Filled with, but with also like some Lannister vibes in there, you know, like, like you have to think it's like a cons- you know bath bombs? It's like a deconstructed bath with bath bomb is what I'm saying, but in batch sizing.

We'll workshop it. We'll workshop it. No real bathwater involved. Yeah, I got this. Anyways. Neither Chloe nor I are blonde. I was born blonde, actually. A lot of white people say that.

Yeah, we discussed this. Yeah, I was toe-headed. I was toe-headed. I was toe-headed. You know, there's definitely so much in this chapter standing out of how they're torturing Cersei. They are torturing- I mean, this is technically torture. They're depriving her of sleep, food, attention. They're isolating her, forcing her to rely on small recognitions, like being called your grace to feel alive. And it's all a means to strip away her identity, right, until she's desperate for any form

of validation, like confessing her sins. And I love that they don't break her in this chapter. She's not broken. When she confesses, it's because she's fucking sick of this shit, okay? It's not because, it's because she realized no one's fucking coming to save me so I'm gonna save myself is why she confesses. She doesn't know the machinations from Kevin that we're about to get into and you know, she's even bold enough when she asks for the bath, right?

Like she's seeing what she can get back to that transactionality that Margo and I were talking about, like she's seeing what she can get out of this. She's seeing just how far she can push them and needle them. But this is an enemy she's never had to face before, right? Like she doesn't have her charms not work, like, except for like Stannis. This is... Cersei Lannister is like, what? What do you mean none of this works? That's really probably the moment she knew she's gonna have to go crazy on these bitches was here when they were like, no, you can have nothing and you're gonna love it. For real. Also, in this little segment that stood out to me, she asks if Margaery had a trial, you know, she's trying again

to get information out. She's pushing, she's seeing what she can get. And Scalera says, soon, but her brother and Unella, not Unaia, Unela says hush and she glares over her shoulder at Scalera and says, you chatter too much, you foolish old woman. It's not for us to speak of such things. So it makes me wonder if there is a development in the Loris case that we all don't know about, obviously. That said, I think Kevin like speaks pretty plainly though, oh, and we don't have Loris and da da da da. So I'm like, does he know about Loras? Or do they know something from Margaery

that the Tyrells aren't telling everyone? Yeah, absolutely. She has to be her own reconnaissance team there. And honestly, look at how charismatic she is. Skullera is like, oh, I'm gonna tell her everything. Look at how charismatic she is, Scholar. I was like, oh, I'm gonna tell her everything. I also like, if you want, I think you did also a really good breakdown in late 2024 of the psychological torture of Cersei. Yes, yes. Further. We talked about church torture. In the High Sparrow's Sanctum, Cersei confesses her sins. She lay with Lancel, Osnit, and the Kettleblacks out of loneliness and fear. All of her children and the realm,

she claims to have found no pleasure in it, doing it to protect Tommen. When asked about Lancel, she admits that he loved her, but she was lonely after losing so much. But she was lonely after losing so much. Estie Cersei, oh dear. Something that's fun about this and Cersei with her, she sold her bit with the septa. She's just like, the crone came to me with her lantern held high and I realized that all my sins were keeping me back. My life's terrible. I need to confess.

I must confess, right? She tries the same shtick with the high sparrow here and she says, the crone came to me as I slept with her lamp held high and he shuts her down immediately. He's like, yeah, to be sure. He's like, I'm so sure it did. And she notes the high sparrow. He's described in very Tywin-y ways, like with his gestures and with being cut off like that. Tywin and I personally would not be friends. I don't want to be his friend, but he doesn't really have patience for any sort of theatrics or fun or joy or laughter. It's just very serious and very out to… I like that the high sparrow is often compared to or described in ways that are similar to

how Tywin was described. Unyielding. Jump. Yeah. Gross. Horrible. Another way to put it, yes. Terrible.

Yeah. Yeah. And I have here, just jumping from topic to topic, because I do that. I don't know if it was a missed opportunity or just something that as a Cersei stand first, like, enjoyer of good literature second. I wish that George had invested more time in showing people being won over by Cersei and her charms. We hear a lot through Tyrion and Jaime of like, she can make people fall in love with her. And in her point of view, like, we see her putting on on a show but we know that she's insincere and then we don't really have outside characters aside from Kevin in his epilogue like buying what she's selling like believing her lies. Kevin really believes that she's broken

and we know by the end of her second chapter which is like oh yes like she's not going gently into that good night. Like she is going to cause pain and good for her, but she sold Kevin on this I am so demure, like I have been broken and she hasn't. But we don't have any other characters other than Sansa briefly believing that Cersei is something that she's not and we're like, I don't know, I think it's just a shame that George didn't give us like, I don't know, a land soul point of view or something like what what's going on like what did he think of her, how did this all happen, like I want to know, I want to see her at her charming best without the biases of her brothers, or her thoughts, you know, Like, I wanna see that. Yeah, I think that's interesting. It's one of those things where he's like telling and not showing kind of like when it comes to Littlefinger, it's a little bit of that, I think oversight in his process where, you know, as you said, you don't really get

that firsthand view of how these characters, how do they keep getting away with it? Can't keep getting away with it. Yeah. One last note that I have here is Cersei, the Lancel of it all is so tragic and what she did to that poor boy. Yeah. But it also reminds me of like I was saying earlier of Blanche du Bois where she's searching for love and companionship, this lost love that she had, this comforting presence in her life that was taken from her or just isn't there, right? Through younger men and boys and then it ruins her entire life. And Tyrion,

when he finds out about the Lancel and Cersei of it all, he thinks even a poor copy of Jaime's sweeter than an empty bed. So I think though, at least to me, Cersei sleeping with Lancel was like a means to an end for her. Like at first she's just like, I need him to kill my husband. I have no other options. Must do this. And then later on with Jaime gone, it's just like, I also need comfort. I need something that I can't get anywhere else.

And why should my king husband sate his lusts and I don't get to? It's bullshit. Yeah. Literally. Get yours, girl. Yeah. Go through this. And like, we do expand on that in a bit. And in her confession, which I think interestingly, her confession is taken down by what? Scepta Unela. I think there's an implication that

Scalera and Moelle aren't capable. So I'm just like, who is Scepta Unela. I think there's an implication that Scalera and Moelle aren't capable like so I'm just like who is Scepta Unela? You know, like she can write, which I think is a rare skill. Granted, I guess, like, you know, a lot of them, the Sceptas act as like governesses, so maybe all of them are, but like, is there like, is there a hierarchy, right? Of the different Sceptas, the ones who can write, ones who can't, are they all taught at a certain point when they enter? How young do they have to enter into the faith of the seven to be that kind of septa? Because I think it would be very hard to be a governess-esque, teaching other people to write. If you come in too late, it's too difficult.

It's not impossible, but it is difficult to become literate after a certain developmental age. Um, so. Who is she? So she might have been someone born into a higherborn. That's what I'm thinking. And then, like, the name, so have we seen anything like that? Like, I think that's almost- Like, the A-A? Crown Ramp B?

The A-A? I swear to god, there is no A-E. There is no A-E! I'm gonna turn this fucking house around. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. It seems like maybe a stormlands or a crownlands-esque name. Yeah, maybe. I'm thinking of like, Fresnela or like, there's something like that that's in the crownlands,

I feel like. Or maybe Ravella. I don't know. Maybe. I'm thinking Ravella. Ravella? Oh, like Blackwood. Oh, okay. Oh, Riverland. Or Smallwood. Smallwood.

Sorry, so that's North, maybe. Oh, North is... Well, but the North doesn't make much sense either with the faith and then the old gods, so... We'll have to think about this. I should have thought harder and given you more options. I didn't really think hard about it. I was just like, it's interesting that she is not only... Final. Yeah. I'm sorry. I didn't really think hard about it. I was just like, it's interesting that she is not only capable of writing, she can do it so quickly and comfortably that she could do it to take notes during what would be a quick paced conversation.

And she is in a lot of ways like the leader of the group too. She shuts down Scalera, right? Just like, because she's about to ramble. Just like, listen, you stupid old woman. Like we can't talk. Like, and this is our crone figure also being like, listen, you foolish old woman. Like we're not supposed to be sharing these secrets. Like if she was meant to know, the High Sparrow would tell her. Like she is like the drill sergeant. She is in control.

So I think like I'd also be curious and learning more about her and her history and how, how did she get here. Like, what is this? Especially in the context of Barbary Dustin's thing about like measters, you know. Best girl. Who dies first? Her or Tommen? Just kidding.

Barbary or Unela? Unela. Unela or Tommen? Who dies first? I don't know. Should we open a bedding pool? Unless both. Open a bedding pool? Unless both. Open a bedding pool, sell bath water, what else is on our list for 2025?

This is the best episode yet. Oh my god. Me stretching my scrunchie from Loew's email still. Oh my god. I didn't know you were doing that. The whole time. Scrunchie stimming. Cersei confesses to her affair with Lancel, explaining her need for love and comfort, but the High Septon dismisses her, stating her sins are common and not treasonous unless she committed these sins during her marriage to Robert,

which we know she didn't. She would never sin while married to Robert. And they pulled out. Oh my god, it's not treason. It's not treason, it's just unsafe. As you were discussing a bit ago, there is that aspect of if Robert can say this loss, why not Cersei? And I do like her confession once again returns to the language of false friends and traitors channeling her other thoughts but repurposing them for this. channeling her other thoughts but repurposing them for this. It is kind of true, you know? She didn't know who to trust, and she was afraid. We see that. She's very afraid during

her chapters. She says, I used the only means that I knew to bind the Kettle Blacks Mew. It's like, honestly, none of what she says is untrue in terms of what she actually believed. People were conspiring against her children as we saw because one of them died. The septin is little like, so use your female part and she says my flesh. Yeah, I do think that Cersei believes that this binds the kettlebacks to her because she's told that this is what binds people to her. It's what bound Robert to her and she talks about Robert and that marriage bond, like, of course. And, you know, she says she didn't take pleasure in betting the kettle black.

And that's also pretty much true. We saw that at the end of one of those chapters and feast. And she doesn't say the same for Lancel, which we'll get to that. She did take some pleasure in that, I guess. Like the language reflects that of, you know, you're saying like she had lost, I lost my husband, my son, my Lord Father, I was regent, but a queen is still a woman and women are weak vassals, easily tempted. Your High Holiness knows the truth of that. Even Holy Septas have been known to sin. I took comfort with Lancel. He was kind and gentle and I needed someone. It was wrong, I know, but I had no one else. A woman needs to be loved, she needs a man beside her, and how she kind of channels those narratives. And like, it just makes me think of, I mean, again, what you were saying about Robert getting to say it as lust, like, there are those excuses people make of like, of course men, they just want sex, they're so easily tempted, they're weak in flesh, boys will be boys, you know?

And it's almost the exact same language here. But they just flip it to be about women wanting slash needing love, but it's almost the same framing, but not lust. And it's the same sort of shrugging, like, what can you do? And I just think it's interesting that she uses the logic that's used to excuse men and applying it to herself. It's clever. Again, she's coming back and using what she kind of manipulate, just like Dani, right? I am but a young girl and know little of the ways of war. Yeah. She's turning herself into a sheep. She's becoming meek as long as it means getting the fuck out because she's a survivor, just

like Dani. Oh, a lion in sheep's clothing instead of a wolf in sheep's clothing. It's also like with her fixation, you've talked about on the with her chapters like on history and like oh yeah she's just like even Holy Septa's even Holy Septa's have been known to sin yeah just like to seek pleasure right and like the thing that really gets me all the time is just like with the Lancel situation with Jamie, just like people have been conspiring against her since before the start of the first book. And like she's aware of this. She's like, they're going to cast me down and take all I hold dear. No, not that. But she's like,

what if they replace me? Like bad things are happening and we need to secure a position. And then this other man that she, the only one that she trusts that she claims whatever she tells him this and he's like you're just a crazy woman I think birthing does something to your brain I think we're fine I think this is fine life is fine you're literally being so insane right now right but like if Jamie hadn't left if he had like he did her warning there then like maybe Lanc Jaime hadn't left, if he had heeded her warning there, then like, maybe Lancel wouldn't have gotten hurt. We're all thinking about Lancel all the time.

That's it. I'm just thinking about what's best for Lancel. Yeah, every day. I do. I do quite like book Lancel. No, me too, but yeah. I do feel for him. I do.

I really do. Like, I mean, also I'm worried about him too. Like, who's gonna die first? Galera or Lancel? Dunno. I really do. Like, I mean, also I'm worried about him too. Like, who's gonna die first, Scalera or Lancel? Dunno. Probably Lancel. He's not long for this one. I don't know. No. Not as shortly as Kevin, but yeah. Yeah. Thank fucking God. Don't get me fucking started right now. We're gonna get started a little Kevin later. Fuck Kevin. Alright.

I fuck, okay. Listen. Focus. Wow, we're about to get there, but first the High Sparrow accuses Cersei of corrupting Lancel, then Osney, who killed the septon at her request, the Old Septon, and he falsely testified against Margaery. That's right, the Old Septon, and I don't know, I like this line here, the wickedness of widows is well known and all women are wantons at heart, given to using their wiles and their beauty to work their wills on men.

And I don't know, the wickedness of widows, it just makes me think of like Lady Stoneheart doing shit in the Riverlands. I don't know if she's like wanton or not, but wanton at Stoneheart, if you will. She's definitely using wiles of being undead and scary. Not quite beauty, but I guess aesthetics in a way to work wills. Like what if aesthetic was creepy? And anyways. Can you give me a line read real quick on that first part of that quote again? I just need to... The wickedness of widows is cross the wickedness. Oh, I'm sorry. You can continue now. I was like, I was here for the music.

There's also this line here that I kind of like where, where Cersei's like, I love my dream like a daughter or I don't know, something like that. And as I've been talking myself into believing over the past few chapters throughout this read through, I believe that. I do believe that. And as I've been talking myself into believing over the past few chapters throughout this read through, I believe that. I do believe that. A daughter, not her daughter, just a daughter. A person. Well, maybe her. I love her like a person who is a daughter. Yeah, like a human who has been born and is a daughter of someone. Yeah. I think that Sansa is sort of like the best example of like, like imagine Cersei treating Margaery like Sansa. Like it's obviously like

a really twisted and troubling dynamic, but I think that she really did have a warped view. Like I did everything for her. I took her to lessons that I was not taught, that I needed to learn. I was looking out for her. She was like a secondary mother to her. She was met with like betrayal, whatever. I think with Marjorie, it's just like, Marjorie already has these skills

that Sansa didn't have, right? So it's just like, what can I do with this person who may be more competent than me? And not that Cersei would ever think that, but like this person who is grounded, who has interest, who is capable and clever and is pretty in a girlish way, right? Like she sees her more as a threat. She sees her younger self. She sees you were groomed for this just like I was. Sansa came to the capital naive, like a lamb for the slaughter, where Margaery came and she already knew everything and Cersei realized, oh fuck.

Yeah. Oh, she sees Margaery as like her and Jaime sees Loras as like him. I see it. Womp womp. And then we have the iconic dance scene where it's just like Cersei's brooding away, looking at Loras and Margaery just being normal siblings. And she's just like, they look more like than me and Jaime do.

That's horrible. That's disgusting. I hate that. And then Jaime comes up and he's just like, would your grace like extend a dance to her white knight? And she's just like, fill my drink cripple. Okay. So, really, really, really quick, really quick side tangent.

So something in the white tower when Cersei is going begging on her knees, which again ties to like Jamie one where she's just like, you swore you would always love me, it's not loving to make me beg. Like, so she's begging Jamie for help and he refuses her. A lot of the grief in their relationship and the real start of him deciding to like stray from her is like she will not marry him, which is an absurd request that he makes for some reason. But like she begs him to help her and in the Tower of the Hand she says, you're my white knight, Jamie.

Like, I need you to protect me. And then at the dance scene, she's just, he comes up. He's just like, well, huh, wouldn't it be nice if you had a dance with your white knight? It's just like- Not like that. It's an insane sort of like stretch parallel connection thing but like, she's kind of petty.

It's just like, why are you constantly throwing my words in my face? Like, yeah, I want you constantly throwing my words in my face? Like, yeah, I want you to be my white knight here, but not, not dancing with me. Not now, idiot. Listen to me, but don't listen to me. No, but it's just like, he's picking and choosing what she means. Like she wants him to leave and go to Casterly Rock with her so that they can be together. And he's like, I'm not leaving the Kingsguard unless you marry me.

And then in this place, he's in's in his Kingsguard whites, right? And he's just like, would you dance with me? Just like, no. Gnar. Gnar. Gnar. Cersei was denying all charges, including conspiring to kill Robert, incest with Jaime, and burying bastards. And she just blames Stan and she's like, he spreads lies. He's a terrible liar. He only spreads it because of his horrible bad claim. True. True.

I mean, not wrong. Never wrong. I'm not wrong. I wonder if like for a brief moment, she's like, is Renly the valoncar? He is a younger brother trying to cast me down. But anyways, um, I will say like, maybe she is a little innocent of Regicide. All I'm saying is like she just got really lucky with the boar. I saw someone else talking about this like on Reddit.

And I was like, that's kind of true. Like you can't just make someone get killed by a boar during hunting just because they're drunk you know? Like you can't just make that happen. Like, I saw, like, I mean, how many times do you think she tried this plan? She probably tried it multiple times to no success. Like, why do you think she was fucking Lancel? That was the point. Yeah, well, I mean, like, I'm just saying, like-

Well, to give him the strong wine. She, it gives him the strong wine, but that can't just make Robert die to a boar, you know? Like, it was, she was just really lucky between that and the timing with Ned. Because like, what if the boar never shows up? What if, like, you know, even when he was drunk he got a lucky strike, you know? Like, it's not like the wine, I don't know. It doesn't really lead to Robert dying. Well, it's like what Leona said, right? Like, a man's nature not changing. Like, you know, oh, love is sweet, but it can't change a man's nature. That's what Cersei learned about Robert. That's his nature. His nature is that he's going

to keep reaching for the strong wine. His nature is that he's going to face a bore because he thinks he's fucking invincible and he's stuck in his twenties. Unless the board doesn't come. Yeah, all I'm saying is like, maybe as her very poorly trained lawyer. Yeah. What if innocent? What if innocent? Not guilty. Better her than me.

I don't want you as a middle-layer. I wonder if she had like a contingency plan with Lancel of like some poison or something. Like she has an interesting moment in Feast where she's talking to Tyrion and she's sort of like boasting about it. She's like, Robert could have stopped drinking anytime he wanted. Like I just gave him the strong wine. Yep. Just like he would have known that this wasn't regular wine. He would have noticed and all of her assassination attempts of him like being by chance or just like being fate based. Like she's trying to bait him at the feast. Yeah. Like the hands turning, right? She's just like,

oh no, I forbid you from doing this thing you want to do. Yeah. Like the hands turning, right? She just like, oh no, I forbid you from doing this thing you wanna do. Yeah, hee hee hee. It would make me really upset because it's something bad will happen. It's not good. And then he's just like, right? So she just like poking at his ego all the time.

And she's right for that. But I think, yeah, you have a good point. It's like, what if that boar just wasn't there? Like he ran away. They don't always show up. Yeah, right? So there must have been some kind of contingency. Like, I don't know.

I don't know what it could have been. Something. A loose arrow. This might have even been like the 10th time. This might have even been the 10th time they tried that plan. Well, that's more of what I'm thinking. That's what I'm thinking is like, they tried it a few times.

Well, there's urgency here, right? Like, there's a lot there throughout her life at this point. There are many occasions where she could have been like, Jamie kill him, like when they literally fuck right beside him. Just like he could die. Like we could end this right here. And Jamie offers again and again, and she's like, no, the time's not right.

So she has that sort of door and Martell problem where she's like, we gotta just keep waiting until an opportunity. Like we gotta wait. And now the time is right. And then she's just like, oh shit. Oh shit. Like now we actually have to get things going.

So maybe every hunt he's been served strong wine. Yeah. But who knows? Who knows? Whomst? Whom amongst? Not the Septon. Yeah, for sure. No.

The Septon acknowledges the false claims from Stannis. He's like, yeah, okay, definitely he's a liar. But he insists the charges must be addressed at her trial. She begs to see her son, but he says she must be cleansed first, though she may have one visitor a day. Moelle and Scolera lead her back, Unela following, and Moelle says they were praying for her grace. Scolera echoes she must feel so innocent like a maid on the morning of her wedding. And she thinks, I fucked Jaime on the morning of my wedding. The Queen recalled, I do, she said. I feel reborn as if a festering boil has been lanced, and now, at last, I can heal.

I could almost fly. She imagined how sweet it would be to slam an elbow into Scepta Scalera's face and send her careening down the spiral steps. If the gods were good, the wrinkled old cunt might crash into Scepta Unela and take her down with her. Hehehe. Yay! Three cheers for Cersei. She's great.

I really appreciate her violent fantasies that she has, because that's really all she can do. As we see again and again, she can't just kill people. She can't do that. She can't be Jaime. She's innocent. Yeah. But she does have some pretty violent and awful thoughts throughout the books, which is sort of like her other twin, Tyrion Lannister.

They're both prone to thinking terrible evil things and even bursts of laughter at inappropriate times, which I think is just delightful. I think all of Tywin's trauma trio have been emotionally stunted through all of their abuse and trauma at the hands of Tywin, and they're not as mature as they should be at their ages. But I think it makes the most sense that Cersei and Tyrion are more, I don't know, they're a little bit sillier about it and I think it makes sense because they've experienced like the brunt of like the degradation. They have never had the highs of Jaime. Like they've always had just grief and pain and misery and people treating them in ways that they don't deserve to be treated or they don't believe that they deserve to be treated and I don't know, I think it's just, it's nice. I like when she thinks mean things.

And that's that. The next thing, really quickly, moving rapidly along back into my area of comfort, which is Jamie and Cersei Lannister. I fucked Jamie the morning of my wedding. Good for her. Right. I think it's really impactful, powerful, just perfect that her revenge against Robert is just a reclamation of her own bodily autonomy, right? Like her aborting or like taking moon tea for the one time that she does get pregnant by Robert, like good for her. Her having children by the man that she actually loves. good for her, her having children by the man that she actually loves. Good for her. And doing this on the morning of her wedding where more of her rights and her freedoms are going to be taken away just because that's what marriage is in this society, right? So it's a triumph. As iconic

and excellent as the line is, like, I fucked Jamie the morning of my wedding, right? I think about, and this isn't just purely in a, I think about them all the time, I'm a sinner way, but like, I wonder what that was like. I wonder what that experience was like, because it's like, they're going to be separated in a different way. Jamie's going to have to share. They're going to have to experience the relationship in a completely different way. It's disheartening. And sometimes I think about it on my darker days. I wonder about how they accomplish this.

Like I wonder if Cersei initiated it. In my head as a Cersei fan who wants her to have like full autonomy and to have little revenges and little moments where she gets to be exactly what she wants, I'm like, oh yeah, Cersei found Jaime. But then, looking and reflecting upon all of the moments of intimacy that we see throughout the books between these two and understanding just how warped their view of consent is, I wonder, I wonder how active she was in this decision. And again, this is like something I flip back and forth on,

but just thinking about how she, her one moment of happiness in her marriage is when she's coming out of the sept and that's all dashed when she sees Jamie too. Like she cares about his grief and I don't know. This is all warped. Basically 10 out of 10, excellent line. I will accept questions because that was messy. No, I don't think it was. I don't think it what you the way explained it was messy, but I do think like that morning it probably was messy, both in the messy sex kind of way, but also emotionally.

Well, it's tragic. It's sad. This isn't a happy, rebellious moment in the moment. It's a, this might be our last time together or fuck them. We're going to keep doing what we want. But there would have been this doubt and this uncertainty, which I don't think either of them would have been able to handle very well. I think it might have been more of the former of the tragic because my granted how honest is Circe with herself? Unsure, right? And I think that's an interesting part about her chapters. But what we learn from her and also like what she tells people, she Like, what she tells people, she might have for a while thought that she was going to try to be, I guess, with Robert until the very first time

that they would have bedded, right? During the bedding ceremony and he says Leanna's name. So I do think that she and Jamie in that moment might've thought, this is it, this is the last time we're ever gonna do this, this is our one last hurrah. And it wasn't quite a revenge yet. It's only like after that that she's like, no, fuck it. We're still on after the wedding ceremony.

And so this is an emotional fraught one. A goodbye, almost. Or, I mean, I would also add it's like a piece of ownership of him saying Remember like I'm still a part of you and you can't get rid of me and you're still mine, too Yeah, so that's what I mean when it's like on my darker days I wonder how active she was in that like when she reflects on yeah, like was was this her choice? Was it her desire? I don't imagine that she was like not into it But like considering his patterns. Did she

seek it out? Yeah, exactly. He has a pattern of holding it against her that she was sold off to Robert, so... yeah. Oh my god. Yeah. I imagine it was like, I don't know, she was in her chambers or something, you know, before heading out there and was in her dress, like wedding dress or whatever. was in her dress, like wedding dress or whatever. Oh, I've imagined it. Oh, okay. All right, all right, Margo. All right. Bath water coming soon to you from girls.

Okay, okay. Take a lap, take a lap, Margo, get a water. No, I'm just kidding. Okay. Unala confirms Cersei can have visitors again that she simply needs to give the names, oh, like Arya, and they shall go fetching the visitors.

Jaime, she thinks, I need Jaime. But if her twin was in the city, why had he not come to her? Cersei cannot accept, like, and I think this goes with what you were saying before too, Eliana, that she doesn't like really view this as like a breakup. Like, and I wrote here that just like this is their first quarrel. Oh, very, very, very target of them. Right? Like, and even though she has started to view him as a liability, because he's proven himself

to be a liability. Um, like she still has fondness for him. She's still like, she still has him very high on a pedestal in her mind and the idea that he could betray her even though he's betrayed her quite a few times already it's just so impossible to her and I think that that goes with it just like he is her other half. He is what makes her her whole. Right? Like I think that short of him killing her, which I'm pretty sure he's gonna do, like there is nothing he could do that will actually make her like completely close herself off to him because he is this ideal. Right? So people talk about Cersei being this like, I don't know, this false ideal

of the maiden whatever in Jaime's head, but it it shatters very quickly. But for Cersei, even though he does abandon her, he has challenged her, he's abused her, like she doesn't ever view him as anything other than her savior, something that is a constant in her life, and he does not feel the same. She needs him to survive in a way that he does not need her, which is very sad. Whomp, whomp indeed. Yeah. That is sad. Damn, the fuck. I'm obsessed with them. They didn't want to bring us to their level, I get it.

bring us to their level, I get it. Yeah. One thing here, so her refusal, and we see that all throughout even in Cersei too, and in the epilogue, she is full on denial mode. It's like Jaime is hers, he will protect her as always even though he never has. But something I think I mentioned earlier, who's to say at this point, but in Jamie 1, in A Feast for Crows, when she goes to him, she says, you swore you would always love me. It's not loving to make me beg. And Jamie, as the eternal oath breaker, like man without honor that he is. His first vow.

I just feel like that's gonna be broken. If not in like, in thought and in his heart, then indeed, like I really think, I think yeah, yeah, that Valenkar's golden hands gonna wrap around her pale throat. That's the first vow he ever took. Yeah, yeah, to love her. He would always love her.

Well, and that's also why maybe he'll go back to die with her. I sure hope so. I mean, what? Brainy fans do not interact. I mean, I think there's room for both ships. That's part of it. The whole point is that it's all of it. The point is that he maybe finds himself through Brienne a little bit. Sure does. Yeah, absolutely. Run, Brienne. I'm just thinking of Whitney Houston in the bodyguard. Um, anyways, please continue.

Well, you will al- I will always love you! Sorry, alright, continue. Also, isn't it like, terrible that her only friends are like, Jamie, Kyburn, Tyena, and Kevin? Vomit. Cage of her own making, but like, she can't even fetch someone that cares about her. I just think Kiburn seems like a ride or die friend and then undie kind of friend. Excellent. Yeah, but he likes the funding. Yeah. I like that you guys frame Kiburn as like, just like he's getting research grants. He is. I've always been like, Cersei? Well, yes, you're right. But I've always framed it as like, Cersei is his patron of the arts.

Like, he's an artist. He's sculpting these horrors. He's manufacturing them. Like, he's just, he's in a tour. New Patron, dear Khyberne. Oh my god. Interesting. That's how you get the bath water. Oh, yes, exactly. It's an interesting idea, like, because kind of the patron of the arts, like, the funding's part of it, but also he's like, wow, Cersei's the first person to really believe in me, maybe. Yeah. What if it's like that? Love it.

Oh, God. So instead, Cersei asked for Uncle Kevin, who's now the Lord Regent, to come to her. She's moved to a new Lager Sahl that night with a real window and soft warm blankets. Dinner is roast capone- honestly this dinner sounded so good when I was reading this passage. Dinner is roast capone with a bowl of crisp greens and walnuts and a mound of buttered mashed neeps. I do like butter mashed neeps, I'm not gonna lie. No, the whole dinner sounded so good.

Um, anyways, the next morning with the dawn, there came her uncle. Thinking about Kevin coming anywhere is horrific. He's so lucky that Varys kills him. Like that's all I'm going to say because after next week, if Cersei didn't put her claws into him, I would. Like he is so lucky that Varys killed him, dude. Also like literally in story too. Very lucky Varys killed him because if Cersei got her way in Tiwau it would be

gruesome. I mean what she did with the blue bard? Babytown frolics. Babytown frolics compared to what she would do to Kevin. She'd be real familial kinslaying in this bitch. Good for her. Yeah, losers it. I'd kill the shit out of him. Yeah. Kevin dismisses her jailers and Cersei notes that he suddenly looks very old, you know, very, uh, very time-struck. She thanks him for coming, he tells her to sit down, but she refuses and she actually apologizes for throwing wine at him. He cuts her off and blames her for corrupting his son, Lancel, fair. She pleads for forgiveness, embracing him, unable to bear his hatred. He stiffly accepts the hug and forgives her very coldly before delivering some hard news. Tommen's fine, Jaime's off with some woman in the Riverlands, and the sellswords, by the way, are invading Westeros.

Unclear if they're Stannis's men or pirates, but we've been known. We know what's going on there. I will say that I am at the very least, like, if nothing else, Kevin, he does seem to actually like his kids, I guess, and that he is mad at Cersei for assaulting Lancel. Like, I'm glad that he feels that way. And I realized this as I was reading this chapter, you know how sometimes people talk about, oh, there's a creepy uncle in the family or whatever. I'm pretty grateful that this is not my family, but I've heard about it happening in families. And that you don't leave the kids with them, or you don't bring your young women like teenage daughters or whatever around the creepy uncle

when they get older and stuff like this is kind of messed up to say but I guess like that was actually Cersei for their family and like during Kevin's epilogue chapter we were like those are some kind of weird thoughts that he about had about Cersei's beauty but then I'm like wow well to be fair I guess not as weird it not as weird as what Cersei did to Lancel, so yeah. It's a familial trait. Cousin. Covening your cousins and your nieces.

Incest. Yeah, it's a familial trait. Incest is very Lannister, yeah. It's making the Targaryens look like goshe. Like posers. Yeah, posers. I mean, there's none around to battle it, so. Yeah, it's a good precursor, too, for next week when she has her flashback in the audience

of everybody looking like she's a Lannister. Yeah, I mean, I'm not sure if she's a Lannister. I mean, I'm not sure if she's a Lannister. I mean, I'm not sure if she's a Lannister. I mean, I'm not sure if she's a Lannister. I mean, I'm not sure if she's a Lannister. I mean, I'm not sure if she's a Lannister. I mean, I'm not sure if she's a Lannister. I mean, I'm not sure if she's a Lannister. I mean, I'm not sure if she's a Lannister. I mean, I'm not sure to battle it, so. Yeah, it's a good precursor too for next week when she has her flashback in the audience of everybody looking like her guilt manifesting, you know?

Yeah, I think Cersei's really interesting with where she does feel guilt and where she doesn't. Because she compartmentalizes all of her feelings always. Like she, with the blue bard, we see her being disgusted and wanting to look away with Felice. She kind of feels bad with Sansa. She does feel bad and she does have moments where she's like cursing her woman's heart almost, right? She's just like, oh no, kill the pity in me. It's like, unsex me here, right? Yeah. Like the Lady Macbethism is very strong. However, in my mind anyway, she doesn't really feel bad about what happens to Lancel. She doesn't really think about it and how it impacted him. Because

I think she's fallen into, and we see this in real life a lot of the time where it's like when young men are sexually assaulted by women, it's just like, oh, oh, good for you. That's so great, buddy. It's just like, no, no, there was, there was abuse happening there. Right? So I don't think that Cerise will ever have that closure there where she feels like, oh, I did something bad.

Cause I don't think she's ever going to view it that way. I think, yeah. Especially since she is like a victim of sexual abuse. Like, I don't think that she pieces together that what she did to Lancel is quite similar, you know? I agree with that. And I think I think that's true as a cultural narrative. Like I see a couple of books that I've been reading, like written by men frame the sexual

assault and the rape of men as something that's sexy to them. And I'm like, interesting, interesting that you turned it into that. And also, you were talking about how she doesn't see it as at bad to an extent. She normalizes it because of having experienced sexual assault herself. And it makes me even think of like Shay, right? Being like, I don't know what Lawless was so upset about. She just got a little bit raped. Isn't that normal? My dad did that to me. think of like Shay, right? Being like, I don't know what Lawless was so upset about. She just got a little bit raped. Isn't that normal? My dad did that to me.

And I'm like, oh, okay. And it's interesting because like her chapters, Cersei's chapters start with Shay's corpse. And we see how the sexual abuse has impacted Cersei like right from the get go and all of the times where she just like, people think that it's a vanity thing where with Jamie's beard and stuff, it's like, just like, no, she's saying that he reminds her of Robert and she thinks about Robert when she's being like with Osney or whatever, Osfred, whatever, all the Oz fucks. I call them the Oz fucks. It makes it easier. Chloe calls them the Wents. Ha! There you go. It's better. Like comparisons to Robert and how it has affected her. Yeah, we have this line in the chapter,

Her, the queen remembered the maid of Tarth, a huge ugly shambling thing who dressed in man's mail. Jaime would never abandon me for such a creature. My raven never reached him, elsewise he would have come. Huh. him, elsewise he would have come. Huh. Oh, Cersei. Poor Cersei. If we remember the sweet Cersei, her lovely, lovely draw-mond, the sweet Cersei would bear a gilded figurehead carved in her likeness, clad in mail and a lion-helmed with spear in hand. Her obsession with appearance and conforming to the system is blinding her from the fact that Brienne is living out one of her greatest fantasies. Cersei wants that power. She wants to be able to present

herself, well maybe not present herself as a man, but to have a weapon. And I wrote here just like this obsession with appearance and how Brienne's gender nonconformity disgusts Cersei, even though it is an example of one of Cersei's deepest desires. It blinds her from this. And also perhaps she's deliberately ignoring that, or she's using this to ignore the fact that Brienne has something and someone

that she's always wanted, right? Yeah, it's interesting. In the show, I guess they have an encounter, but in the books, I don't really remember any and as far as I know, I think this is like the first time she's like remembered Brienne existed as far as I know. Yeah, yeah, I think that George was like, Kevin's gonna tell her that Jamie's in the Riverlands and I need her to know who this person is. Yeah. So she's like, she saw her that one time. She saw her walking somewhere because they don't interact. And I have a problem with the show's interaction and also the aging up of 4M. Like that's- that's- I will say I think they skipped the jump with the show. Like they wanted to get you there faster to be like, look they know each other. Yeah, that's true. Perhaps, yeah.

Anyways. Yeah. They even have a little Arrested Development her. Her? But like with the wrong punctuation. Her? Yeah, her? Is she funny or something? Kinda.

There are, what's crazy is like, there are like 80 mentions between the next chapter and this of how Cersei should have had the sword like way more than usual Just I mean nothing new but late on and Brienne is living her life, right? Like had she had Brienne's dad who wasn't necessarily a proactive father, right? He wasn't out there like saying I'm gonna get you the best Trainers in the world to get you to be the best knight Brienne, but he wasn't saying no and that's what Cersei had She was told no, this is your life now. Go on. Brienne is scarred, blonde, brave. For Cersei, every sword is a magic wand. Right? Every sword opens a door, magically, that she couldn't

get into before. I mean, we spend this entire story looking at magic swords. People are talking about a messiah wielding a sword when the world turns dark, but for Cersei her world is constantly dark and any sword would turn that light on. Jaime not coming with sword in hand to slash his way to her is weak in her eyes. The least you could do if you own this magical powerful item is use it, right? Use it. And Brienne and Jaime, and she doesn't quite know this yet, but they have matching magical swords. That's the most cheating on your sister-wife thing you could do, is magical matching swords with some other woman. Like, that's a problem. Exactly.

For her, not for me. I don't have these problems. Like best friends necklace, but worse. But it's a two-sword. It's matching swords. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like, literally though, like true story. It's matching. Yeah. Yeah. Like literally though, like him twinning with another woman. Twinning. Yeah.

Interesting. Well, and two, if you think about Brienne as sort of like this mirror to Jamie or just this idea of what he wants to be and his values that he admires, right? She is she is a true knight and that's what he wants to be. And then they have this connection, right? It's very interesting. And it's interesting in the sense like bringing up them having magical swords being cheating, which is true.

That's a fact. Like look it up, George told me. But there is like, I think the narrative equivalent of Cersei like being unfaithful to Jaime and that is in air quotes, because it has to be, is him leaving her, abandoning her, not returning to her, like going to rescue Tyrion, which is a good thing in theory, but he really does not fulfill his role as a protector in any meaningful way. And it's unfortunate that she's never going to shake free of that. Because it's like, oh, oh, oh no. Anyway.

Yeah. Especially because the whole chapter we're getting lines from her of, she hated feeling weak. And that's what she feels. That's where her desperation comes from, her clawing and clawing to get power again. Yeah. The isolated sentences in the chapter are great. So she hated feeling helpless. She hated feeling weak. She is like clinging on to these hatreds because they're sort of not blinding her, but they're distracting her from the fear. Right? So it's like, even though these are very basic things, it's almost like she's being robbed of time and sense and she's losing her wits as she thinks about like, cause's not sleeping right she's clinging on to these negatives because just like They're they're keeping her grounded. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely

The negatives are kind of what are it's what kind of what she has Yeah, well as we discussed West Roci current events going on around You the crown needs support against the sellswords. Mace Tyrell refuses to fight until Margaery's innocence is proven. Cersei contemplates a solution, letting the Tyrells and Stannis? question mark question mark question mark destroy each other. She asks Kevin to free her from the sept, but he says that he lacks the men as they're in the Riverlands. Additionally, the High

Septon won't let her leave without atoning for her sins in front of the city with a public walk. And I mean, obviously this is the Golden Company, fun stuff, but then we have this little exchange. Kite- Kevin kind of breaks, is about to say to her what the walk is going to be, and she cugs him off and she's like, no, absolutely fucking not. And he, you know, he tells her she's gonna be tried for regicide, deicide, incest, and high treason. She's like, when did I kill a god? But the High Septon, of course, is who she had killed, so they feel that might be part of that. He tells her not here, the time for arguing about that is at the trial and looks around herself. He knows someone is listening even here.

Yes, Mr. Kevin, they will burn my lord Lannister, is encouraging a man who reminds Cersei of Tywin to commit an atrocity, which is very classic Kevin behavior. And I think the fact that he didn't push here or even attempt to suggest an alternative should be enough proof for people to understand that he was directly responsible for her walk. Dieppelog makes it crystal clear that he was responsible, but there are little hints and tastes around that should raise some eyebrows. Yeah, and look, from an outside perspective, yes, you probably should take Cersei Lannister out of the game at this point. She is a little wild, a little rowdy, like if we're all just gonna be objectively honest,

but he made such a stupid choice here by trying to make a deal with the devil, with the Faith, about it. Trying to smooth over things with the Faith and be able to tell- like, he did this so he could take his little chunk of power and feel self-important, like we were talking about earlier, that idea of being self-important, like, well, I'll fix the realm. And there could have been a more deft way to do that with Cersei because by declawing her, you've only made her angrier. Exactly. And he's making the same mistake that she did.

Plus him sort of like trying to embody Tywin and emulate him. And the reason that I find like, or think that this should be more suspicious to people, it's like Tywin, Kevin, and the way that he frames it, it's just like, yeah, you can't leave here before you atone. There's gonna be a trial, but he's not gonna let you out of here. It's like, oh, so I could stay here until my trial.

And then maybe you could use that time wisely and gather your forces, gather your men, like your men and break me out of here. But it's. But there's nothing. He's just like, yeah, you gotta do this. Margaery gets out easy. Randall's Harley is able to… Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Interesting. Kevin informs Cersei she is going to be tried by the Faith unless she demands trial by battle

with a Kingsguard champion. Either way, her rule is at an end. Kevin will serve as Tommen's regent, with Mace as hand, and Pysel and Swift remaining in their roles. Paxter Redwine is now Lord Admiral, Randall Tarly is the Justice-er. All these roles now have reverted from the SOC names and they're going back to normal. Cersei realizes the Tyrells control the realm. She asks how Margaery and her cousins got free and Kevin explains Randall liberated them with his army. They'll still face trial. The charges are weak. The most accused recanted, except for the blue bard. Randall swore to deliver them home, but the sparrow still holds Osney and the blue bard. The red wine twins were found innocent, Hamish the harper died, and the rest are in Qyburn's charge. Kevin then delivers some more bad news.

Myrcella was injured in Dorne, losing an ear. Cersei immediately is like, Tyrion. And Kevin's like, it's not Tyrion. Settle down. It's not always Tyrion. Aerys Oakheart was killed, defending Myrcella from Jerelde Dayne, and Cersei insists Tyrion. Aerys Oakheart was killed, defending Myrcella from Jerelde Dayne and Cersei and Sys Tyrion orchestrated it all, involving Dorne from the start, including Myrcella's betrothal to Trystane. Kevin tells her she sees Tyrion in every shadow, but she persists, calling him a creature of the shadows who killed Joffrey, Tywin, and now perhaps Myrcella instead of Tommen. Yeah. Uh, I do like, you know, her response to hearing about Marcella is like, she was just a child, my precious princess.

She was so pretty too. I'm like, oh yes, Catherine, why is that your hair? Tristain looking at her. Ma'am, her, you can call me mom, Tristain. Tristain, mom. No, no, go back to ma'am. Go back to ma'am. Yeah. Tristan, Tristan, Mom. No, no, go back to ma'am. Go back to ma'am. Oh, yeah, I think I'm reading too deeply into this. Like I think she probably does call Marcella her princess, like affectionately like, oh,

my princess, but like it is, I am like, she doesn't say my precious daughter, right? And then it's like fixated on Marcella's looks on that. And granted, it's probably more like an economy of space. It feels like she doesn't fixate on the danger to Marcella that long, switches too quickly to Tyrion. But I do like that she does the language of saying that she sees Tyrion in every shadow

and she calls him a creature of the shadows because I do think that resonates with his chapters because Makoros says as much to him anyway. I see you a shadow in the midst of it all snarling, blah,ah blah blah. Or a shadow snarling in the midst of it all, whatever. Yes. Yes. You all know the quote. I know where you're going with this, and I agree.

And then we come to the end of the chapter. Cersei paced the width of her cell. I need to be with Tommen. These Kingsguard knights are as useless as nipples on a breastplate. She rounded on her uncle. Ser Eris was killed, you said. At the hands of this man Darkstar, yes. Dead. He's dead. You're certain of that? That is what we have been told.

Then there is an empty place amongst the Kingsguard. It must be filled at once. Tommen must be protected. Lord Tarly is drawing up a list of worthy knights for your brother to consider, but until Jaime reappears… The King can give a man a white cloak. Tommen's a good boy. Tell him who to name and he will name him.

And who would you have him name? She did not have a ready answer. My champion will need a new name as well as a new face. Qyburn will know. Trust him in this. You and I have had our differences, uncle, but for the blood we share and for the love you bore my father, for Tommen's sake and for the sake of his poor maimed sister,

do as I ask you. Go to Lord Qyburn on my behalf. Bring him a white cloak and tell him that the time has come. Egotts. Egotts everywhere. Egotts for everyone. E game of Thrones. Indeed. Eliana game of Thrones.

Wow. Yay. The last thing that Kevin did right, going to Qyburn and getting Robert Strong. The only thing he did right. What? I thought this was foreshadowing of Kibur and becoming a knight on the Kingsguard. That's what this is saying. Dancing Queen but it's about Kibur and as a Kingsguard. Seriously believed in him. Oh, Slay. That was so good.

Tweet grandpa, I love you. Only 70! Only 70? Y'all, that was... I can't believe this chapter, what it ramps up to. Like, the next chapter is all hell comes loose. This was the calm before the storm. And maybe I won't focus on it next week, since Margo's here, I want to put it out there. The next chapter is all hell comes loose. This was the calm before the storm and

Maybe I won't focus on it next week since Margo's here. I want to put it out there What's cool about Cersei 2 after Cersei 1 is Cersei crab walks on all fours up the hill And the description of it the entire chapter. It's like a horror movie like Exorcist like she crab walks up this hill you guys and It's not supposed to be funny necessarily but after reading through the chapter the other day and like rereading and I'm like god this is all so tense this is horrible I feel so bad for her and then it like it's something out of a horror movie it's like she crab walks up the hill it's terrible but it's also- like her torso is facing up so funny I don't know dude it's some Exorcorcist shit. It's amazing. Like where's the pea soup? Oh my god

360 it's wild. But yeah, it's a terrible chapter. So this one was a nice reprieve before It's like a Calm little character study. I like this one. Nothing nothing much happens, but it's a good one It's a bit of a recap episode. It tells you this is all the hydrinks that Cersei's been up to, by the way. Yeah. Well, then you have to, right? Because of the placement of the chapter, I will say like that's why the Lightning Round was so wild today because this chapter is more than 50% into the book. This is, I mean, you've experienced over the first half of A Dance with Dragons at this point, and obviously if you pasted it all together in Feast Dance, this

would be in the middle or past the middle probably. So it's a lot to cover beforehand and a lot to get catched up with. And that's what's really crazy about reading these like weekly is you don't realize how long it's been unless you look through all those chapters in between. Yeah. Well, thank you for again kicking off the new year with us and recapping Circe's life kinda if you will with us. I mean, we went pretty far back. And will you tell the people again where they can find you?

I fear I am always this long-winded, so please anticipate that when you follow me on Twitter.com. I am King underscore Margotia on there, and then on Blue Sky I am King Cersei. And I mean, if you go on my Twitter, if you look at the link there, I mean, if you want to read some other thoughts I have on Cersei there, feel free. That's all. Nothing. That's all. Thank you.

They've got tons. They've got some good, it's a good feed to get into, so definitely recommend it. Thank you. It was nice. It was a blast having you on. I'm so glad you came on for this one, and we couldn't have done our penultimate Cersei chapter without you. Thank you. Yay. It was great. And if you want to also follow us for some reason, you can still find us on Twitter at GirlsGoneCannon.com.

Same thing over on Blue Sky, and perhaps you would like to send us an email as we send Cersei off. You can at GirlsGoneCannon.com. Yes, and if you haven't already, be sure to subscribe to us on your podcast listening platform, whichever one that is. Our friends over at patreon.com slash girls gone cannon are going to tell you some of those places you can find us. You can catch girls gone cannon on any of the following streamers on pod beam, iTunes, Google Play, Stitcher, Acast, Spotify, Overcast, Apple Podcasts,

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A huge thank you to our friends and patrons over there for telling you where to go, and also for supporting us. We really appreciate it. Thanks so much for listening. as always. I've been one of your hosts, Chloe. And I've been another one of your hosts, Eliana. Thank you again, Marco, for being another one of our hosts. It's been a pleasure to be a Girl Gone Cannon today. Beautiful. You'll be getting your badge in the mail. Thank you. Yeah. We came up with a lot of, I guess, business ideas this episode. Yeah. And we will return next week with another, another, another one of our hosts, our

friend, Alicia from Dire Wolf City, who will join us for Circe 2 to close out the Circe POV and ring in the new year with the upcoming new POV that you're gonna find out about next week. So come back and listen, thanks. Ha ha. Bye. Bye. Goodbye. No one more, it's the wicked.

Bow bow bow. Slay.