Girls Gone Canon Cast - ASOIAF Episode 259 — ASOS Daenerys III featuring Pim Wangtechawat

Episode Date: August 8, 2025

Dracarys. Pim Wangtechawat, author of The Moon Represents My Heart, joins us to analyze the language and ambiguity that dance through this iconic Daenerys chapter. Tune in to hear us break down the connection between identity and agency as Dany crosses this Rubicon. Where to find Pim and buy her book: Buy the book: https://pimwangtechawat.net/books/ Pim's website: https://pimwangtechawat.net/ Pim's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/pim.wangtechawat/ Pim's Substack: https://substack.com/@pimwangtechawat Pim's Twitter: https://x.com/PimsupaW Background music "Volatile Reaction" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/ --- Eliana's reddit account: https://www.reddit.com/user/glass_table_girl Eliana's blog: https://themanyfacedblog.wordpress.com/ Chloe's twitter: https://twitter.com/liesandarbor Chloe's blog: liesandarborgold.com Intro by Anton Langhage

Hello and welcome to Girls Gone Canon reads A Song of Ice and Fire, episode 259, DeNaries 3 in a storm of swords, featuring our friend Pym Wang De Chowat. I'm one of your hosts, Chloe. Oh, and I'm another one of your hosts. And we're here with one of our other hosts. Oh, yeah.

Oh, my God. Eliana Starstruck right now. Pim, thank you for coming. This is so exciting. Eliana can't even talk. I know. I'm sorry. I was like, I've lost all of my bearings.

It's really. Thank you for joining us. Pym, you are an incredible author. If you have not read, Moon represents my heart. You are wrong and you need to do so. Oh, I'm so excited to be here. Like, because I've listened to you guys for years and I'm a massive, like a song of ice and fire fan.

And I've been telling people, this is like one of the highlights of my career. I'm not even joking because I've been lobbying to get on your podcast for ages. I like follow you guys. Like I was telling Chloe that I was reading her essays on Tumblr. and stuff. So this is so exciting. That's right. That's like a deep cut. Yeah. That's a deep cut. I feel I'm putting on my like English lit hat.

Yes. Putting the lit in the English lit today with him. I mean, we're also very excited to have you here. I know we were nervous. We're like, right? Let's reach out. Let's make the ask. It's also, it's so weird too. I've been desperate for you guys to do that for ages. I've been like following you guys on Instagram, on Twitter. Well, you only get the chapter. The chapter.

You did get the chapter. It's kind of a nice get. Good job. Yeah. Well, and that's the hard thing, right? For us, yes, our chapter order is fun and different, but it also means we've had to wait for some of our favorite people in the world to be able to come on to the cast for Danny with her being towards the end. So thank you for biding your time before you got to come on for the chapter.

Yay. What's up these days? You know, you put out this wonderful book that, you know, fingers crossed, we're waiting for it to hit the screen. But what else is coming from PIM this year or in the future? So I have my second novel that's coming out. What? Yeah, my second novel is coming out March, 26, so next year.

What the fuck? Oh, yeah. It's been a journey, like, writing the second one. Like, everyone says, like, authors hate the second book. Like, they have a hard time writing it. and that is kind of true. But the second one is more of like, there's some magical realism, like elements to it,

but it's mostly a romance, and it's about like my Thai culture instead of my Chinese family, like the first one, and it's set in Bangkok and Edinburgh, and it's about just like two people kind of falling in love, and it's about kind of fate. Are we destined to be together?

Is there such a thing as destiny? So it's very melodramatic. It's very Thai, very dramatic, very dramatic, very emotional but yeah so that's something that I'm looking forward to that's fun to explore right because you have kind of a little bit stricter of structure when it comes to the moon represents my heart maybe like less melodramatic in some aspects and maybe that's on maybe that's on some of the British right too they're a little wonderful yeah but even like with the first one I feel like oh that's very dramatic too I feel like that's just me as a writer but the second one is

even I'm a bit scared for like whether people like it or not but we'll see I think it's a very vulnerable book I love it a little like dramatically unhinged let it loose yes it is that's a great word actually Chloe it's very dramatically unhinged it's yours now baby take it I like that if that if it's what I'm imagining I'm excited let the floodgates open it's very cheesy I love that I love cheesy I do too I do too Tim, what are you reading this summer? Are you reading anything? Oh, I actually finished Babel by Rebecca Cohn, near Oz Kong. Yeah, which is, it's really good. It's really good. She's discussing in a, in a, like, positive way.

Yeah. Yeah, I think she's like, not derogatory. No, not at all. Like, it's very clever. I think it's a very interesting book. It has a lot of discussion points in it. For those who don't know, it's about, like, Oxford. It's like an alternative reality to us, but it's about, colonization and what that has to do with like language translation the british empire so it's a lot of stuff in there yeah yeah that's also really interesting in the context of i guess this chapter too yeah yeah okay i know i haven't read it yet i bought a copy of it for a friend signed and like then they couldn't receive it so then she never got her signed copy she just has a normal ass copied now oh man that's terrible yeah oh oh like the rest of us and read it like the rest of us

it took me a while to finish it it's not hard to read but there's a lot of you feel like you're thinking while you're reading it so you kind of have to like it's kind of thick to parse through dense there's a lot emotionally dense I've heard well we're really excited about your next novel

I love some unhinged dramatic you know love story a little bit of cheese a little bit of love we love A lot of delusional I personally love being delusional so I cannot wait for this book Yeah

I mean we loved That fits with you say that you Oh thank you Eliana I was going to say that fits with you loving the summer I turn pretty Chloe Oh yeah also Talk about delusional Yeah Eliana and I are big fans of Summer I turn pretty

It's our favorite show favorite love story of all time and like the first person plural I mean like I enjoy it I'm behind though I'm representing us I'm representing us and our loves our passions which is the summer I turned pretty

this is my favorite show so it's Eliana's now the secret Pym that also is like I think Eliana is a Jeremy is a Jeremy I don't even know his fucking name I don't care about that one I don't think I am necessarily I think like in the first season I liked

their dynamic. Yeah. But it sounds like he's being like a lunatic as well. And I'm like, no. I don't, nobody wants that. Nobody wants all that. I'm a Conrad. I'm a con-belly, belly, Brad.

What do they call their ships? I don't know what they call it. I think I don't like either of them. I did also think I'm like, girl, maybe you should date other people and just like get out there instead of the boys you've known since you were like born. But there are other people. You know, there are.

but I don't think she can hear me through the screen is the problem. I keep telling her. I always go like, oh, at least you're so pretty, Molly. Keep the beauty, girl. Yes. Yeah. This is a tension. I feel like I can, yeah, I have takes on the summer I turn pretty, but this will be a tangent.

When we come into the summer I turn pretty podcasting, when we become the podcasting community behind the summer I turn pretty, which could happen. just never know Pymma is definitely going to be our first guess is what I'm saying. I think I told you this, Chloe. I'm like so confused though all the time now on TikTok because I don't understand what they mean when Jeremiah did this thing because I'm still a little like Love Island USA Pilled. I'm like, Jeremiah, like, what are you talking about? And then I was like, oh my God, they're talking about this.

Oh, you thought it was Jeremiah from Love Island. Yeah. Who has a book club? And he's reading the song of Achilles, y'all. Yeah. You should read your book. I've seen you watch Love Island. USA, this is also another detour. But if you watch Love Island USA, I actually just met Zach

from Love Island USA. Oh, interesting. He came to my gem in Bangkok. I go to the shopping gem. Yeah, and then, like, he's turned up twice. So, like, there was one time I was that. And he was in my session. So we had a conversation. And it was funny. I saw, Zach, you got such a terrible edit. It was funny. Bless him. He had this, like, tattoo on the back of his neck, like, in Thai, which is supposed to say put God first.

But he said he used Google Translate when it was 18. So it sets them in completely that doesn't be a text. And I was like, I mean, that tracks. Many such cases. Oh, bless him. Oh, God, geez. That's exciting, though. Yeah.

Wait, do you watch Love Island USA? Did you watch his whole arc? I did not, like, watch it. I've seen it pop up on my, like, Twitter feed, but I watched the UK version. So I follow the UK version. I also watched the UK version, but I haven't been watching this season. I, like, fell off partway through, like, the previous season. I was like, this cast doesn't speak to me.

And I was watching a bit of All-Stars. I guess the most recent season I watched was maybe, I don't know, 10. I'm, like, so excited that Kai and Sanam got married, though. Oh, my God. you know about Kyanza now. Yeah. I'm excited. This season is actually very good.

There's a lot of drama. I've heard. I've heard this one's good too, so I need to catch up. There's not a lot of love, but there's a lot of drama. Yeah, that's how it was in the US also. I'm trying to introduce, like, my partner. I was like, oh my God. So, because I got him watching a little bit of USA.

I was like, we're going to watch the one that, like, the turning point of Love Island slash Love Island, UK. So we're starting season five, which is the Molly Mae and Mara. Oh, that's an amazing season. That's a great season, iconic season. I know, yeah, it's iconic. I mean, like, so I'm excited to show him, but I haven't seen that one either. I've watched one, parts of two, three, maybe starting with seven or six or seven onward.

Yeah, it's a whole cottage industry in the UK. That way you look lost. They all sound like my friends that I'm not. know all about them from Eliana. Thankfully, they're characters that I keep up with in the stories that Eliana tells me about them and I act like they're just like people we know. They're just people we know. They are just people.

So sometimes I'm like, they're not characters. Like, whatever we see of them, I'm like, we know that that's real. They're real people. I reposted Zach from the gym. Like when he took a picture of all of us, he posted it. And then so I reposted it. And like, someone that actually DM me was like, do you know Zach? Like, she thought I actually knew him.

And I was like, no, not personally. Just saw him that time. Who knows? This is why Eliana's not caught up on the summer. I turned pretty, though. Yeah, that's actually true. No, I've been watching The Buccaneers. Also, because of the Buccaneers.

I need to watch that, though. I'm interested in that, I am. That's on my list. I think the season finale is, like, this coming week. I started to get on board. The Jason Momoa Apple TV series, like, Chief of the one about Hawaii. Oh, the other one.

Okay, yeah. About Hawaiian history. They're doing some great money laundering on that channel, aren't they? On Apple TV. Like, I just am like, there's just money being poured into this stuff. And it's just a random show that probably won't last. Honestly, no, it is. It's a quality story telling.

Yeah, but I think the interface is not very good, but it's, they're making like really solid stuff. Like the sheep of wool, it's all in Hawaiian, which I thought was like really bold. They don't speak English at all. He is insistent on stuff like that, which is cool. Like, I know he likes to... Well, and that's why I like the Apple TV, I will say, like, if they're putting money into stuff that will never do anything,

at least they're doing it to the artists to let them, like, Seth Rogue in the studio and this Jason Mamoa show, et cetera, and let them do the things they care about, which is nice. Like, at least the money laundering is going to something almost good. Yeah. Because seriously, they're just dumping money in this shit, and I'm like, who is giving Apple? all this money, bro. Steve's dead.

Mr. Jobs is gone. I think we need another pot for like another episode for like Hollywood gossip. Yeah. Absolutely. Well, we're very excited to have you here, Pim. Thanks for joining us. We're going to do a little bit of quick housekeeping up top and then we will jump into our lightning round and our episode because we have a big one today, the episode.

Patreon episode will be coming out this month. bonus episode for patrons in the $5 and up tier, the stranger tier and above at patreon.com slash girls gone canon. You get a bonus episode every month unless like something happens and we're like, we're so sorry we're pausing the Patreon, which can happen. So keep that in mind because we're human too. You'll get an episode every single month. Last month we finished Catching Fire Part 1A and B, the spark.

We did the spark with our good friend, A, e. Zebra. Highly recommend you listen to both parts of the episodes and enjoy. We'll be back with Catching Fire in the future. This month's Patreon episode is TVA. There's a couple things rolling around and we should have something decided upon by Danny Ford. And also just a quick heads up, something that Ara brought up in our Catching Fire coverage. Obsidian Knights is coming back. So keep your eyes peeled for that if you love reread podcasts, which we assume you do.

because you're here. Absolutely. So, yeah. We love that. Anyways, so, and then other things happening this month, we are going to, of course, we're doing our monthly brunch slash happy hour, brappy hour. This month is more towards the end of the month, so you guys have time to get things in order.

It'll be, you know, a little end of summer blowout, I guess. It'll be August 31st. Yep. The real end. Really holding out till the end there. I mean, yeah. Yeah. What a way to close out August. We could have done, like, I guess this week, but that's not enough time for all of you to know and to get your, like, chickens.

And also, like, I'm going to be honest, it's Leo season and there is a Leo on the podcast. So, like, we need to plan around. Oh, we don't have any, we don't have any Leo season, I guess, celebration. There just will be very much season by then. That's true. Well, maybe our Patreon episode should be a celebration of Leo season. We'll figure it out. I was like, what are you? I was like, what do you mean? Maybe we will. It's like, she better not be doing, like, some surprise party. No, but no, I could. That'd be funny. No, I have no clue how I would do that. I did think about, I did think about flying to surprise you and showing up at your home, but

like it just isn't going to work with. I did want to. The sentiment is really there. I was going to like talk to your partner and everything, but I just can't make it all work. Yeah, yeah. So next year, I'll do it. Try to forget till next year. It would have been really funny though, wouldn't it?

Like if you just like walked in and I was there, I'm like, damn, if I pulled that off. That would be crazy. It would have been insane. And I think I could do it next year. So I forget all about it. It's a very like movie-esque idea. Right. I was thinking very like romantic, very, you know, like, alas, maybe 2026.

Well, we're not going to do any emails or tweets of note because you should have listened to a bunch of them in our minisode. Girls Gone Can Canon explains it all where we had a blast just yapping away. Yappy, yep, yep, yap. Go listen to it. Came out a couple weeks ago. it's a fun little episode. We like doing many episodes. We really do. We don't get to do them often, and our hearts feel very light, free, and full of whimsy after we do them. We do. Yeah. All right. Well, here's something that you all might have missed. It's the other

chapters in a song of ice and fire. It's lightning round. Yeah. What you miss between Danny 2 and Danny 3, which isn't much because George wants that build up to spill over. Starting with Brand too. Brann hears a very old story from long ago. Davos 3. Imprisoned. Davos has told the tale of Azora High from Alessandra. Alistair Florent tells Davos why he was put in jail next to him. John 3. John and Egret stay in the cave. Wow. Aw. Which brings us to Danny 3. Negotiations come to a header 3 in Astipore where

Deneres seizes the day with a simple word. Dracarus. And so that brings us here into Danny. Three Assum of Swords, big chapter. Before we get into it, Pym, why this chapter? Why have you chosen? Why this? I think it's because it's such an iconic moment in the series.

I know you guys don't talk about also the show, but it's also like a very iconic image. And also an iconic moment in the Naris' character. and also her trajectory as a ruler and we've followed her for so long like the first two books we followed her from when she almost had like zero power and she's being sold off as a slave and now we're like seeing her kind of like building her entourage building her like army and now this so this moment is a very big kind of like okay she's she's basically leveling up a lot so this is like her moment of like Sierra level up moment. So it's just fascinating. And there's so many layers here about, you know, like slavery, like oppression, what kind of ruler she wants to be. There's so many things happening in this chapter that I feel like it's just really fascinating to talk about. It's her first good choice. Her first real decision she's ever gotten to make, right? She literally has the power to turn down Barristan and Jora and say, no, you don't get a decision here. I am the decision maker.

And that's huge. And what she does with it. Yeah, and it's also like fast-big, like dragon kind of using the dragons and a, she's used them before Elizabeth, but I think this is the first like kind of major dracarious moment. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that she chose to detour to hear, right? And then you're put against the moral question and she has to take a stance, which is a lot of what the previous chapter was exploring. So it's a big one.

I think it's like the only episode of the show. I mean, like, we talk about the show sometimes, but like, what can you really say about the perfection of the original TV series that the books are based on? You've got to go. We haven't made that joke in a while, so let's bring it back. Let's bring it back. Yeah, I think this might be like the only episode my mother's watched. Oh, really?

I remember trying to, like, watch it, like, at that time. I don't know, like, how easily I had access to the app. my great uncle had Isrio and I had to like go around all these things but I remember being like I gotta go upstairs now I gotta go watch like Game of Thrones is on TV right now sorry family goodbye my mom was like what are you doing so she's like there in the bed like sitting and kind of being like what does she what does this thing that my daughter is into and she decided she really like deniers I guess from that episode but um yeah I got my parents to watch the entire series but my mom was such an Asian mom like

Lessa, when she was watching the first season, and at the end, when, you know, like, Danny, like, emerges from the flames or whatever, and Jora, like, walks to her. My mom, Lessa, she was like, oh, my God, she thought Jora was a Targary, and she was like, oh, what does it be? I mean, I get that. I was like, oh, Jorra didn't, like, didn't burn. I think there was another episode where she was like, oh, why is Jora, like, burning? Like, Jora can just go into the flames, and I was like, who did you think Jora was, mom? I think Jora should burn. Have we considered that?

But yeah, in one of my notes, I actually wrote like, oh, I think there's like one. We'll get to the moment, Liza, but I actually wrote, oh, Jara being messy again. Literally, his like prerogative for the entire three first books and then also the next two. Yes. Something that I like about the way that this chapter opens up is how it sets the scene. There's a big contrast here in terms of the image. you have a lot of the green and cool breezes kind of showing you that you're here amongst the masters now

where they like set themselves apart versus like the oppressive like hot red bricks of where she was looking at the unsullied last chapter and actually touring them so it really gives you a sense of a place and then you have Danny telling Krasniss's translator and enslaved girl named Missande that she wants to buy every single of the unsullied

and the not unsullied in Ashtapur, including all 8,000 of the trained. They're not insullied because they're technically not. That's what they're trying to, they're like, we can't sell them. They're not unsullied. Anyways, the 8,000 who are trained, the 600 who are training, and even the boys who are not yet cut. Yeah, this is a lot. I love how the chapter, like, starts as well. And I also like, it says a lot about the introduction of Misande as a character as well.

George uses the word the slave girl, like right off the bat to introduce her. and then when she starts talking she calls herself like this one's like worthless is and then you get the term like good masters again so there's a lot of like kind of like language that's being used here that's kind of really gives you a sense of basically the world and what's happening

like what's the dynamic between these characters like right away yeah not to talk about the bad show again but like actually the the vibe that you get yes missonde's aged up but that vibe you get in the show of like obvious restraint in that She is very, obviously, this is an everyday show for her and she's used to it. And the fact that George doesn't name her until like 70% way through the chapter, right? Like she gives her name to Danny much later that we'll talk to that does feel very significant.

And even the bringing up this one's worthless ears, it makes you think as Danny starts to embrace the I'm but a young girl who knows little of war, Monsande is doing the same thing, right? This is how Monsande has learned to survive here of saying, yes, this one's worthless ears. it's a persona that she has had to learn to put on yeah but that's an interesting question as well because when I was rereading this chapter again and I the term like worthless like kind of like jumped out and it kind of makes me question like does missonde actually think she's worthless or is she saying something that's like the language that she's expected to speak or is this actually something that if you're being treated as answer me your entire life like the way she has would she actually think she is worthless and when she becomes quote and quote like when she becomes

free under danny does that sense of identity like how can it be like kind of eradicated how can it be like forced a new in it like how can she i don't know find a sense of worthiness it made me think kind of like does she actually believe she's worthless or is it something the language that's expected of her well and everything is in like money right terms for them like all their slaves are they either have value and worth or they do not. She's been told she's worthless for 10, 11 years of her entire life, right? But at the same time, she's just as smart, if not smarter than the highborn children we know at 10, 11 years old in this story, right? Like, she can survive and knows several languages and can translate and help negotiate and cut deals and actually, like, knows diplomacy and knows when not to translate certain things.

she's highly perceptive these are things that obviously show how much value and worth she is and yet the masters have called her worthless for how long mostly probably to deter her leaving or being bought by someone else i really love that you've called that out i think part of why we were also excited to have you on for this chapter is pym is not only uh an author of prose but also a poet so has like a really uh great i think eye and ear i don't know a worthful ear proper per language generous calling me a poet Eleona

I feel like most are you not I read your poetry you post your poems I feel like I always I know this is bad I always put down my poems

because I feel like they're just like me venting about my love life so I'm like is this actually poultry but yes thank you

I read them anyways and that's something that you've like kind of played with as well in your book the moon represents my heart but I don't know

it's kind of funny thinking about the word worthless as well because Chloe, you're also talking about this idea of price and so forth. And on one hand, as you were saying, right, Monsi does a lot there. She's their salesperson and I'm sorry, a lot of people know

the salespeople are the ones who bring in the money when it comes to a lot of companies. People invests good money and like we'll pay good money for a very good salesperson. She's doing their sales. And at the same time, it's funny because I think of the word worthless. And

to an extent it is on a very literal sense means the exact same thing as the word like priceless but the connotations of the two are so different right can you truly put a worth can you truly put a price on a human life and that is the question that is being asked in this chapter maybe this is a bad reference but it made me think of you know like avengers when they there's a line and i think in finity war when they say we don't trade lives Yeah. Yeah. But it doesn't raise a quite interesting question.

Like how much is a human life worth, especially in this context. As Stanis says, right, and Davos says, as our big mo. Actually, there's so much Stannis Davos here in this chapter that we'll talk about. Unfortunately, like, I'm like, oh, there's Stannis things happening in this chapter, too. But when she fucking monologues later to Jora, I'm like, okay, Stannis, Jesus. Oh, my God. Jora, don't you know? I've forgotten about status.

not thought of lucky that's so real I need that as like a soundbite I forgot all about today that's how I want to feel I want to feel like you

yeah there's something in it right like how much is a bastard boy's life worth against thousands 10,000 people everything yeah Sonday's life is worth everything yeah what happens when she becomes free

right I don't know like because it it made me kind of think about Missande as the character because I don't think we get a lot of stuff

from her perspective so mostly everything we kind of know a sense about Misande is through Danny's point of view or through Danny's experiences with her

and through what she tells Danny so it kind of made me think like okay so what kind of identity does she have does she think she's worthless what kind of value

does she put on herself like when you're a slave and you get your value is determined for you since you were born, your identity, and you're being told that you're worthless. So when she becomes kind of free under Danny, like Danny just says, okay, you're free now and you work for me. She doesn't say you work for me.

She gives her the option. Not to get too personal, but I think like when you're on for a long time, you're under the belief that you're one way or who you are, you're worth this much. And suddenly you don't change how you feel about yourself, because someone tells you, okay, you're actually worth something, like, you're actually amazing. Like, it doesn't, it doesn't actually, like, reprogram your brain or how you feel about yourself just through, like, someone else being like, okay, this is your new reality now.

So I always wonder, for Missande, or, like, for many of these unsullied, or many of these people that Danny kind of gives freedom to. Once they're free, how do they reprogram their identity, or how do they kind of eradicate their own the values or stuff that's been put on them by the masters like what is that process actually like for those characters and I don't think we get to see

a loss of that that much and I always kind of like wonder and I kind of always want to kind of know more in that area yeah yeah like how do they get the chance to build their own life now that they've been given their life back well what do they get to do to

become that person that they want to be yeah like yeah or not even like get their life back and it's a question that denarius kind of asks later on like what do we do like they retort from their lives so early on there is nowhere to go back to yeah how do you build something new yeah and uh everyone needs therapy in this world because like i mean like when if you're told one story about yourself your whole life you're gonna believe that story you can't just like yeah it isn't to another story when it hasn't been written for you that so i've always wondered about that like okay so it's like a bad

sad-ass moment for Danny. And it's better that it does happen to these characters. But I wish we knew more. Danny sits beneath green glass in the pyramid wearing a deep violet carthine gown showing her left breast. She drinks tart, persimmon wine while the good masters whisper greedily about the deal that she's offering them. The eight major slave brokers argue over selling half-trained boys. Some say that would ruin their reputation to sell boys that are not fully trained, but others are like me want gold now. I love this little section because I think what George is really good at is he's so detailed in his world building. So everything that the characters are doing, like what they're eating, what they're wearing, what they're hearing, what they're smelling. He's so detailed.

And when I was reading this passage, I always kind of like, oh, why did Danny choose to wear this like Carthian gown? What's the significance of why is she wearing this gown? And then later on, she would like wear a Dothraki outfit. But now she's chosen to wear this gown. They kind of like asked the question, oh, do you think it's because it symbolizes trade? Because she's trying to broker this deal. Is that why she like wore this outfit to kind of match the master's like tokens? There's a lot to pull a part of her carthine gown.

It's weird because Carth was a false garden, right? Like it was a place that out like Paradise looked like Paradise, but actually was hell and Danny lit it up as further hell right like it's almost kind of romantic it was a like you know a center of produce and a center of we make things and we have riches and then Danny burn that down so it's almost like a mask it's a little bit like a sign of her conquest right in a way like she's wearing the outfit of those she just conquered of the hardship that she defeated but there's also a fun evolution and you pulled this out of like the tokar where this bear her left breast, right? It's out, titty out. But this ends up her transitioning into wearing the to-car, which we get described as how difficult it is, right? That you have to have it a certain way and hold it a certain way in order to keep your titty in. Right? Like it's a little like opposite where the carcena are like, yeah, just pull it on out. Like the cultures are very different and the pain and like the annoyance. And okay, like have we all, we all have probably worn

outfits before that maybe we're like, oh, something's going to show. Something's going to fall. out. Like, I shouldn't have worn this. This is a lot of work to keep my bits in. So the to car is like purposefully annoying and painful to wear. And there's some sort of metaphor along the line of when she adopts that. Like they, there's something in their culture even of like that interesting bit of like, oh, it should be painful to wear this outfit. It should not be easy. Almost like the crown, right? The crown should never rest easy on the head and never will because it's heavy as hell and pointy and hurts. It must affect the posture as well. But yeah. That's a good point. I could use a toad car.

Yeah. Well, I've always wondered about the cloth and gal. Why is it the left breast? Like, why not the right one? What? Like, it's the left hand of boobness. Yeah. Oh, my God. I think people just, like, pick one. But also, I'm thinking, like, well, it must be so easy for everyone. Like, it's so socially acceptable. It's so easy to what? What is the word that I'm looking for? Breastfeed children. Oh, like, up and at them. Yeah, I think I'm just, like, thinking about it because I was visiting a friend recently who's still, like, she's got an infant, you know? like breastfeeding her child so yeah and i mean you were talking about like there is the sexuality to it and carth was sort of portrayed that way so i kind of think we're seeing that evolution as well of you know you were saying earlier that she maybe takes a cue from miss sonde of like being like i'm a but a young girl in no little in the ways of war and this is part of that as well you know by highlighting that sort of sexual aspect um playing into the way that people underestimate her due to her femininity, reducing her just to a sexual object. It's a very suggestive piece.

But Krasnus insults Denarius. He's been doing so for a while, thinking that she's desperate. He smells of peaches and mocks her in Valeria and not knowing that she understands every single word that he says. This section, there's so much, maybe I'm like the word police, but there's so much, like, imagery in terms of smell and scent in the sense in the, this passage about estopal, which I find, like, so interesting. George does a lot of, like, smelly, past and smells of peaches. This chapter has a lot of, like, sweat and blood of estapur. And I think there's, like, one passage where it says, the masters or, like, the plasters

drench in sweet perfumes, and Danny is drinking this parsim and wine. Like, there's so much kind of fruits and peaches and perfumes, this really heavy, sweet smell, but underneath it all there's sweat and this blood. I always think it's kind of them trying to put this barbaric thing of slavery, but putting it this under, kind of like masking it with this like sweet scent and all this heavy smell. The contrast is really, really big. And I find like that's really cool by George as a writer. Yeah, I think there's a lot there when it comes to peaches, right?

Because I know that a lot of people have done analysis, like I think I want to say our friend fat while don't read it did like a great analysis about peach as a symbol in a song of ice and fire so there's a lot there also like in the way that operates I mean we associate with like rently a lot so what does that mean and then also you know she's sipping this tart persimmon wine and trying to keep a straight face despite its sourness so that's a lot of like the performance that's going on here with this negotiation but now I'm like so I've been wondering where are there. they're getting these like persimmons from and now I'm wondering where are they getting these peaches from and I'm thinking like do I just not understand the climate of Slavers Bay like is something like going on here that they're not telling me it's like insinuated like with the red blocks and the insullied and like you know with the skahazadan and stuff and granted like you can have a lot of different kinds of climates it's a large area of place I'm like I got the sense it was sort of much more dry here but maybe it's not like where the

fuck are they getting like peaches and persimmons from so easily and i'm just like is someone going to tell me like that this means they're not really like because like peaches and persimids don't grow like necessarily in that kind of i don't know in like a desert so i'm like but i wonder if that's also like a flex yeah that's true the fact that they like the masters can get all these like delicacies that are not from here so you kind of like suggest that maybe they have the money they have the status to kind of acquire these things from like far away and then going to be like oh I'm sipping this wine yeah Chanel number five or whatever that they're putting on themselves persians are usually like subtropic too so like this isn't technically well I mean it's on the

water so I mean they're literally on the water so it's not pure desert oh yeah that's true yeah that's true also like Asian persimmins and American persimmons grow different like just on climate-based. Like, American persimmons are, like, they do better in cold to be fair. So, like, who knows? I also don't know. But there's a lot of cold in, like, China and, like, Japan, which is where a lot of the persimmons come from. So I'm just like, this is not that sort of climate, but maybe I just, like, have a misunderstanding of the climate of Slavers Bay, which is probably, like, a very diverse climate because she goes across all these different areas, like cities and stuff. So it's probably different in each place. And I'm just like, I'm just trying to start fights about lemon tree theory. And I'm just

I know you are. Where are you? I felt it. I felt it. And I'm like, I'm not going to let her do this. I don't have time for this, Aliyah. I wish I could remember when we talked about this. And I was trying to figure out where we talked about Buddhism in our last like 50 episodes.

And it was like Danny Searcy and Hunger Games. So it could have been anything. But I feel like we talked about Persimmons as a symbol of transformation in Buddhism in something recently. And I was trying to go back and. find it but we speak about a lot of things so just never know but the persimmon is like a spiritual symbol of transformation with its stages of ripeness okay so unripe usually means ignorance and ripening wisdom if you're going to like make a scale make a chart on it so it's kind of fitting considering it's super tart which is usually a little unripe right so like she's sipping

super tart persimmon wine so it's fun because like the ignorance of the masters and um the obvious ignorance of the masters that is what this chapter builds a lot on right like we see her triumph at the end because of that and it does fit with the peach symbolism that eleana mentioned right and i just think there's something great with that and blood oranges and persimmons here as the fruit and time that brings the wisdom and danny is like made to wait through this story right she's being fed tart persimmon wine right now not ripe not sweet not beautiful and how she gets to choose to go about things is very different than a lot of our other protagonists, right? She sees what she knows is the righteous choice in this chapter and gets to pick it.

But at the beginning of the chapter, she is meant to drink unripe persimmon tart wine juice. And then by the end, she has made this big choice. So, like, it's great because she's about to also hurry up and wait again. Poor Danny. This whole, like, several books thing, you know, it's just really killing her. I don't know. There's something really fun in that, though. There's fun about the persimmon tartness.

I like a slightly tart but sweet or persimmon person. I don't know about on right persimmon. I don't drink it or not drink it. I've never had it as a wine or juice. I've never had it either. I'd like to. I usually prefer it sweet. Yeah.

Look at crisp, tight, tight, a light bit of tart. I don't like it too sweet, but. Danny calmly offers to pay double for every in-training boy soldier, child soldier. Even those who still have their suckling puppies. they laugh at her offer and want even more money because of course I put like one note in this section which is basically just a quote

I put Brick and Blood Bill Astopole and Brick and Blood Her People When I was reading this And like the whole bit about you know The young, really young on Sally With the puppies It really made me kind of It just like gets to you

Because you really see kind of this generational How this foundational How insidious this slavery there's so much violence and so much blood has gone into the building of this city so I just put that quote because I felt like wow that section with the training boy soldiers and just like the puppies and just like yeah yeah scrimmed it's great in comparison to like how George has written out Kingslanding already right which was also built with blood with literal people in the walls of it or how he then relates in feast with the broken man which is all over this chapter right? Like how you build a whole city, a whole nation of this oppression, right? And what's imbued in those stones. And it's great because it goes from metaphorical to like, here we are doing shadow baby shit and blood sacrifice shit and shadowbinder shit. But then like also like the metaphorical bit of like they have bled into the stone in the city because of what the city was built on.

It's really great. He did real good there. It's like metaphorical and also literal. Yeah. I love that shit. George. Good job, George. Keep it up. It's a good line. Yeah. Sometimes I'll just be like, I don't have anything to say. Here's a line. So during this particular chapter, we have a moment where the tall grazdan apparently speaks a little bit of common tongue. And I think it's interesting the way that

George chooses to convey that this man knows a bit, but not as fluently as Missande, right? Like, he doesn't have him speak in perfectly grammatical English, because that is the language that George is using Troy did this. What he does is he has this grozden conjugate all of the verbs or most of them in like present participle. There's like no difference in them. And even if it retains the negative, the interrogative, it changes a little with some of the conditionals like May. And there are some other verbs like that are in past tense, which is kind of interesting. But he starts it off with is being, you know, Westrose is being wealthy. And that obviously like brings a little off to people who are, uh, who know English well.

It's not technically wrong, I guess, because, for example, someone could say Westeros is being difficult, but it's not used for something that is a much more prolonged state, such as wealth. So I'm kind of interested to see, like, how this way of showing that this person knows a bit of common tongue would be, like, portrayed in some of the other translations and how that's interpreted, right? Because we are talking about translation here across everything, because I mean, like, I think about sometimes when I do a terrible job of speaking other languages. verbs is one of the hardest part

it's right conjugating picking the right conjugation I'm like I don't know good fucking luck to me that's real there's like the difference between like for example I don't know a prolonged state of something in the past versus like something that is ended in like Spanish you know

that's me with Italian I think that's the right one I don't fucking know hope so you get what I meant me very lazy you understood what I meant i'm not conjugating that shit i also like think this part about like speaking in different languages this master trying to speak the common tongue i think it's cool that it also shows us how good missonde is how talented and how skill she is at what she does she's doing what so many of the adults around her cannot even do she's like reaching a little different level which is really cool yeah it's again

it goes back to like her being more worthy like her being more of a being and half of these masters, right? Like, they can't afford to let her go. They could never afford for her to have her freedom because she holds up their entire business, whether they recognize it or not. It's also, you think about how many misandes have there been, right? Because for her to have that sort of ability to translate so well, the brain is more malleable at a younger age, able to pick up and sort through the different languages.

So she was trained to do this from a young age. Like, she, it's, is it necessarily, like, part of it is talent, of course, but part of it is, she was forged to be this in the way that the install lead have been. And I think of like, I've been a strong advocate for a Missande POV for like, I don't know. A long time. Maybe nearly a decade now, because this is how long we've been here and reading these books. Okay, I'm sorry. But no, I'm like being literal. It's been a decade. And. Yeah. Like, I think that she would be interesting because she has that perspective. And also, I think it would be a great parallel as well to, for example, Aria's storyline as she's learning the several different kinds of dialects of Valerian. Like, there's a lot there that could be really interesting.

And Nassande being someone who actually, as you said, right, comes from that more, not even lower class. Like, it's not considered a class to be slave versus Aria and the way that she's going between those different worlds. I don't think we have a P.O.V. from any of Danny's freed slaves. So we don't have a P-O-V from, like, Missande or from, like, Greywam or, like, any of her. Even her, like, Blood Riders or her, like, Dothraki followers, we don't really have any P-O-Vs, which I think. The only associate POV I think we have is Ario and Melisandra.

Those are the closest, yeah. The people around Danny, it's usually, like, embarrassed in, Quentin. And it's probably going to start to be minimized, yeah, and just her and Tirea. and Barriston and Victorian until Victorian dies, Embarrassed dies, and then it's her interiorian. But I do think, like, I really think that we'll see her POVs get fewer and farther between and have these supplemental supporting to give us those viewpoints because it sounds like something George would do. Yeah, I would love to get an actual viewpoint, though. Yeah, we've got like fray POWs and stuff like that.

Yeah, come on, George, come on. I do think it's an oversight on his part, and I wonder, like, would it be different if he weren't writing, I mean, I don't know, you know, very 90s. Like, he started these in the 90s and, like, wasn't thinking about it, but I do think it is a weak point in his books and writing. Yeah, and it does go back to it. Yeah, I always wonder

if it's like, I think this is just only a question that George can answer. Sometimes I always kind of like wonder with authors, if they have to write writers, even though I ask myself that question sometimes, if you're writing from a character that has, like, such a different,

like, there's so many layers, for George to be writing from a P.O.V. of a slave who's a person of color. People would also see it through our real world lens. And sometimes I always kind of ask the question, like, as an author, as a writer, or as a fellow writer, like, do we kind of shunn away from that sometimes? Because there's so much baggage or so much, like, kind of, how would we handle that as, like, a storyteller? When you have to go to write from a P.O.V. That has so many historical layers attached to it. Yeah.

Well, Danny doesn't really have a ton of funds to give them, right? For all of this, they want more money, they want more things. They say, if you want all these great armies, you will need to give us tons more, like your crown or your money or your goods of your people. And she refuses. And instead, she's like, take my ships, my three ships. And they're like, fine. We'll give you 2,000 unsullied and the centuries in training.

This is a lot of purchase. A lot of, like, lives and bodies. like being sold. What I know here is that you can really see kind of the cycle that's happening here. Before this chapter, we got a little bit of history about old giz and like Valeria. Like they were once slaves and they were once being oppressed and kind of subjected to like extreme amounts of violence by Valeria. But now they're the ones inflicting violence, inflicting this oppression on other people,

on their own people as well. When you look at it, you sometimes are like, like, oh, if something's been done to you, it's an easy thing to be like, oh, why don't, why are you repeating what's been done to you? But history never works like that. I feel like sometimes we, we, at the top of the episode, I mentioned that I was reading Babel, and I actually highlights it like a quote that she uses in the book. I think she talks about colonialism, but it kind of like applies it as well.

I think the quote is colonialism is not a machine capable of thinking, a body, in doubt with reason it is naked violence and only gives in when confronted with greater violence i do think that's like what's happening here is so kind of it is very tragic but also deeply sad when you and your people have been through you know what it's like but you're still perpetuating this cycle it's kind of like okay is this the only way we as a people know how to kind of respond to violence just with like more violence. I find that really like deeply tragic. That exploration of cyclical violence, whether it's like generational and familial with Taiwan and his kids, right? Yeah. And what's happened with the Lannisters and with the reins and the tarbacks and like

that entire story is like miniature in comparison to these like politics between these places. I think that's so interesting to see like that's how they fight back. That's how their goal is now we want to get a dragon so we can burn everyone and we've been wanting that for age. ages for ages. Yeah. Even stuff with like, I think we mentioned Tyrion briefly, even with stuff with Tyrian, Tieran has been through so much cruelty, like he's been mocked, he's been ridiculed, he's been through all this like pain and cruelty, and he's going to go on this journey

where he's going to inflict he is to an extent, this unkindness on other people as well, even though he knows full well what that feels like. And I feel like that's very sad. Mm-hmm. I do like that it's like explored on all of these levels, you know, from whether the personal level up to that national level, I think that's a really interesting way for George to play with that. I just think like every single chapter is imbued with it. It's really interesting. Yeah.

In this passage, Danny talked about like when Vicerius was forced to sell their mother's crown. Here, I think in this passage, she's like, oh, I'm not selling my crown because of when Viseries, she said when Viserius sold their mother's crown. crowned. I think it was like all the joy went out of him. I think he stopped being a kid. And what I find so fascinating, interesting is that she thinks about both her brothers like so much in this chapter, both like Vyserius and Riga. And we kind of get to get a little glimpse of what Viceris was like as a brother that abuses abusive side of him, but also this kind of like scared child. And she thinks about her brother so much in a way that I find kind of, of endearing but also kind of sad that she's like trying to kind of I don't know find this source of

like belonging or source of affection and she's thinking of these like two brothers who weren't really there for her like very often yeah it's interesting it's a scale she's using to judge against them right like am i am i going to be more like visceris am i going to be more like regar and the coin does like spin throughout this chapter and she thinks she's embracing one of their history more or one of their actions more. And especially at the end, I want to come back to this because, like, she's the one making history. She's the one creating the history.

Like, Ragar really didn't do that much when you really think about it. But we don't have to talk about that yet. But I do think that, like, her deciding, right, like, she's trying to coin her own place in her family history in a way and carve out that place and do what she thinks is the right thing her family would want to do. But instead, in this chapter, she chooses the thing that she thinks is right to do, which is much more important and the crown is really sad because like she earned this this isn't a familial crown you know like of course she's not going to sell it she like this was given to her

and she says in i think the last chapter right like without a crown i will not be a queen like i need a crown to be a queen and this crown is kind of like indicative and like similar to her like she has created herself into a queen this crown was created for her to be a queen it's not like magor's crown it's not like aries the second's crown it's not passed down it's not the conciliators crown passed down so it's important she has imbued meaning into this and I think that's so important like of course she can't part with it yeah and I also think it's so interesting that like when you when you talk about like royalty there's so much of it comes with symbols like things that you attach it the crown the scepta and I think there's another section in this chapter where she says

like when she's marching into estoppel to face the mosses she said that she had to kind of put her dothraki warriors on the outside and the more kind of like civilian people in the middle and loads of like balloon at her entourage to give the impression this queenly presentation of herself and I do think that it's kind of when it comes to royalty in the real world and in this world how important it is to have these like symbols of power yeah without it like it's that family it's that legacy and yeah I also like what you're saying of how her brothers are also very present in this chapter because you know she never thinks like is this what my mother would do she hardly thinks of her mother at all yeah she never thinks of her father yeah for obvious reasons

because he was the king and the one deposed and part of the histories but in a way like viseries and Ragar are not just her brothers she thinks of them in a way that perhaps one would think of their parents because Viseries did have to take on that role for her and Ragar's like that absent parent that she has idolized and like idealized and was like is this the pattern in which I will follow, as you've been saying. And there's this line here that I really liked, just because it resonates well, and I think, other things that we see throughout the story of she'd considered long and hard and found no other way. It is my only choice in regards to the decision she's made to have them all. And it makes me think of, for example,

like, Brienne thinking, no chance and no choice. Because when you hold a certain moral code, right? Like, for her, it's almost like this categorical imperio. She's like, I must. I must do this. There is no other right thing to do. It is the only path forward. A lot of her story is kind of like that. You know, you go back to the dream she had in the House of the Indying, the walls closing in. There's only forward.

There's only that. Yeah. This is her way. I love that. There's a lot of fun language in here with that. And like, I love the, what does she say previously a couple chapters ago? She goes, I must have them. I must.

I think it's this. Is it this one? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, like, I mean, it's probably like in a second, too, because as she stresses that, she shows that she offers Drogon as part of that trade. I will call out. She says, you may have a dragon to them when she says that they can have Drogon.

Like, when they're like, fine, yeah, a dragon. We want a dragon. She goes, you may have a dragon. Yeah. That's a really cool spot. That's a really cool. It's so fun. You know to that.

You might, bitch. We'll see, won't we, huh? Um, yeah, a little mayhaps, a little, a little hint at Danny's trickery to come. I liked that. And Whitebeard pleads with her in front of everybody, embarrasses her. He's like, don't trade a dragon for soldiers. Like, true, but like not the place to say it. She has Sir Jora drag him away when he's arguing with her in front of the slavers.

Yeah, right. The first time he's ever done anything right. No, I'm just kidding. He's something maybe four things right and everything else wrong. The good masters are like, great, a dragon. Yes, we will. We'll take that. They're very eager. They decide they'll take all of her trade goods, her ships, and Drogon in return for basically anything she wants, all of the unsullied men and the boys. When I was reading this passage, and I think like the amount of stuff that she's giving to them, like all this stuff that she's giving, it really gives you a sense of including like the promise of Drogon, the scale of what she's like, how much she's willing to put into this venture. And it just makes me think of like, okay, that her...

not just of what she has this sense of like, okay, she, the throne of Westeros is hers by right, kind of, but there's also this like, this longing for home, this sense of like getting back to this place where she feels like she belongs, like her people, her place, where she's come from and stuff, the length she would go to return to Westeros. And I find that very quite emotional and quite like intense. And it really gives you an idea of like this kind of like longing that she has inside of her. And it makes me think, okay, so what happens when she actually gets that? And it doesn't match up to the longing that she's had her entire life. It doesn't match up to the belonging that she's hoping to find, the acceptance that she's hoping to find. That would be a very, very big pain.

That would be like an immeasurable kind of pain because she's put so much into this. It makes me think, I'm like, oh, that's kind of heartbreaking. And my second note is here is like, why wasn't Whitebeard included in this plan? Maybe she doesn't trust him that much at this point, but yeah, I was like, oh. Okay, so at this point, she's still trusting Jora over Whitebeard, which from her point of view makes sense, but I'm like, oh, I feel a little bit kind of. Yeah, I feel a little bit bad for Barristan to be like, oh. but yeah

I don't know if it's a question of like both a test To see how he would react Yeah to see how he would react In terms of that loyalty But also But also as you said Like maybe how he'll react in general there

But I think there's an aspect of which she doesn't tell me Because she needs it to feel believable As well as part of the Part of the performance in the act of like Dang she really wants these Yeah But when you brought it up and made me think, like, that's kind of an interesting contrast to, like, the way that Rob

failed to include Edmier in his more plans in the same book. But with Rob, it's kind of an oversight, whereas this seems very intentional on De Nereus' part. Like, everything seems so calculated here, but in a really smart way. Yeah. Hashtack, justice for Edwia. Yeah. Real. I'm so, like, on the Edmier defense week. ever. There's also the last Davos chapter with Alistair and Davos talking, right? Alistair is put into jail because he thinks that his way was better, right? He decides that Shereen was going to marry Tom and bring a piece, and he chose this without, like, consulting Stannis, of, because like that wouldn't have lied. But he says, my way was better, surer. And Stannis gave me his seal. He gave me his leave to rule.

The hand speaks with the king's voice. And Davos says, not in this. And I think there's a little bit of that same vibe going on, right? And I'm sure we look back to like Ned when he was also overreaching his hand of the king, doing amazing things on the Iron Throne and Ned Seven, like doing awesome things while we're at it. But there is something interesting here of like, this is not a cheerocracy, boys, okay? Like this is a danyocracy, not a cheerocracy. We'll bring it on vibes. But interesting that Barriston, like, Barriston just left like a place.

where he was very not outspoken for many years, right, about how he felt. So I think that's also an interesting thing to look at for his character that he feels it's a mistake. Of course, he's not going to not speak out. He spent 40 years not speaking out. Yeah. Yeah. And maybe he thinks he can do it because she's a girl.

Yeah, she's just a little girl. I mean, who cares? A lot of people feel that way. That is true. Sorry, Eliana, did you say something? No, nothing. there's also like when you were talking about the like she's going to like trying to find home and belonging how she thinks of it in in Westrose it makes you think of this like ancient Greek poem and I'll read some of the lines from it of I've often dreamed of a far off place where a hero's welcome would be waiting for me where the crowds would cheer when they see my face and a voice keeps saying this is where I meant to be I'll be there someday I can go the distance I'm glad you caught on to what I knew it was Roger Bart's voice in my ear.

I go in the distance. When I go the distance, I'll be right where I belong, and especially some lines, like, and I won't look back, I can go the distance. So is this the Nerey storyline? Maybe. I don't know. Yeah, that part is just, yeah, that's a great song. It's an amazing fun.

You know, I think they have a term in for, like, Disney movies and Disney kind of coming of age movies. I think they have like a tough like one day. The I want song. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, it makes, it makes me so sad because I feel like all of us, we all have that one thing,

whether it be, you know, like love, career goals or whatever, or like a family, all the thing that we've never had that we kind of have this intense longing for. And some of us like chase that so much. And I can really see even though she's in this kind of grand size. fantastic world, that very human drive. And it makes me kind of feel for her a bit. Like when she gets that and it's not this like buildup kind of I want sentiment that when she gets that and it might not measure up is kind of heartbreaking.

I've been to Westeros and I don't think it's going to measure up there. I've seen it. Try to Summer Islands, girl. like I think like summer aisles like I think you really like just go back to bravos yeah but then when you think about it and you put herself in her shoes like there's no way she can be like okay let's just forget about this Westeros dream like there's no way she can like ever be like okay I'm gonna let this go

like it's like no that's fair yeah yeah that's a different I want song let it go okay this podcast going off the rails Elena yeah oh god yes let's not like yeah i do not want to yeah i should not be singing oh another noah have here it's basically i think chloe mentioned this previously too the fact that the giscari like really lusts for these dragons when she said that oh okay you may have a dragon and have the negotiation change just from like that common alone and it's just so fascinating like we're talking about these like cycle of violence and us inflicting the same

hardships that people have put on us on other people. They really want these dragons, even though these dragons were what had destroyed their entire civilization. Yeah. That's kind of, again, very sad. Yeah. I like that you

called that out because the language that they use is a lust for it, right? And I think the word lust, obviously, you know, it's showing that they truly want this and desire, but it is a language of sexuality. You know, again, she's here wearing this carthine gown. They mock her using the language of sexuality as well.

They call her whore, even though, you know, she's the one who's doing the buying. When it comes to the purchasing of bodies here, she's the one doing the purchasing. She's the position of power. And that's kind of like, that's why they want the dragons, right? They want, it represents power, the power to not be conquered again, but also to, as you said, like that same cycle. That's the story that they know and want to live. And as they agree on that price, it's interesting that Dineries, like, insist, they say, we want, we want that dragon, we want the black one. He seems to help this. And, you know, she does, she tells them his name is Drogon, right? She's not removing it to for his traits. It's, as you were saying earlier, like regarding Masande, calling herself this one, et cetera. There's a sense of identity. And she's trying to reassert that. If it's here for a dragon, imagine it even more for all of these other people, right? And how she immediately, asks Ms. Sonday her name soon after this whole transaction.

And you were talking about, yeah, going back to why was Biersen not included in all this? It makes me think in that 1963, right, movie where Elizabeth Taylor performs as Cleopatra. And I don't remember this scene that well. Like, I haven't seen it for a few years. But there is a moment where she's with someone and she's doing some sort of dealing and she does tell someone off for questioning her command in front of others, kind of. and it feels like, because George keeps talking about, like, De Neri's in the context of Taylor, I think he was inspired a little by that scene and brought that into this because of the way that he is kind of, I think, modeling a little bit, De Neri's after Cleopatra.

And in regards to the decision that she makes here, I'm going to once again quote myself for my 2019 essay. What a flat. I love you. I'm quoting me. I'm just going to, I mean, I already wrote it. It was a good lie. And it was a good succinct paragraph that it did it all.

And he goes, regarding Denary's and her greatness, right, as a character, great, as in like this gringer character. A smaller character would have merely bought the unsullied or abandoned them. We see these two lesser roads in Jora and Barestin. Jora initially advises her to fill out her ranks by person. purchasing some unsullied. Barristan publicly questions Denarius in front of the masters of Asteport, telling her that buying and using slaves

is immoral. One choice is complicit in the system and immoral. The other permits its continuation while preserving individual purity, but neither arises to the level of revolutionary change, which is what DeNaris is seeking to do here by, as you said, like changing

these systems, reimagining a new story that could exist. Again, another solid advice by Jora. What if he just bought sleeves? And not, he's like, buy all the sleeves. I'm going to take you here.

Oh my God. Oh, my God. Stop. Then he was going to take you to my old workplace and you can buy some sleeves. Now, this is really well said, though, Eliana, because so, like, good job back in 2019. Good job, old Eliana.

I kind of like 2019, Eliana. Could she come back? No, second. This was first half of 2019, like first actually quarter, even, of 2019 Eliana. Things were, like, pure and nice at the time. I missed that girl. Could you bring her? This was before COVID.

No, second half of 2019, Eliana was, like, a mess. Second half, like, onwards of Eliana was like, life is hard. Yeah, no, the lead up to COVID was actually really terrible. I recall all this. It was actually all terrible. And then COVID was also terrible. Also. This was also, like, prior to the finale, you know?

Yeah. This is prior to the finale. Yeah. Because you've got it out just in time. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and regarding, I like what you've said here because Danny is the secret third choice, right? Like you have choice one choice too.

Danny makes a third choice. That's what's so incredible about this chapter. She creates a third choice in a new way. And they don't see, like, they're living within the box. They don't see that it could be bigger. Don't you see? I say that way too much every day now. It's like to everything.

I'll tell anything to my. roommate, I'll be like, don't you see? You see? No, just me. I'm the only podcast way you'll ever have. Also, like, there's something great about what you've said. Like, Barrison does, he means well, but he's like, yeah, just, you know, don't do it and walk away, and they'll just keep doing it forever. And also regarding Barristan, he is just a random night having too many. Like, he's a rando that just showed up to help from

And that's great. That does buy you esteem. But he's not on the Kingsguard for many decades. He's not like right hand Kingsguard. Man, like she has no reason to tell him her plan. She has no reason to. He's a counselor, sure, but she doesn't need to tell him this plan. And it's really interesting because when she does address him about this outburst, so a little meta here, Barrison says the field of fire is a huge reason she should be keeping her dragons. Like, Agan proved at the field of fire that you need dragons. And it makes me one, if at this time in writing, George was planning on Danny, obviously maybe being out of Slavers Bay a bit sooner than... Interesting. Interesting theory.

It's just a theory that I have. I know. I'm a little crazy. I'm a little tinfoil. But I was like kind of just looking at the lead-up of how often we talk about Field of Fire leading up to this. And there's a good amount of Field of Fire chatter. Like Tyrion tells us about it in his second. Game of Thrones chapter. Theon talks about it in Catalan 10 in a Game of Thrones. Tyrion comes back up talking about it, obviously Blackwater. That makes sense. And then Olena, siren noise. Olena starts talking about it in Sansa 1. I'm like, uh-oh, get out of here, Olena. I worry for y'all in the reach. And Jamie even brings it up in Jamie too. And then here, finally, in the Targaryen POV, which I guess by saying that objectively it's the Targaryen POV. Subjectively,

some of you might think any of these can be Targarym POVs, but... All of them. Yeah, in this instance, specifically the Targarym POV. And then also, George was putting it in Sworn Sword, which was published 2003, right? This was published 2000. So interesting to see, like, his mind was on the field of fire during this time. Like, he was just thinking about that field of fire. So I'm curious if he was hoping for a field of fire moment, maybe sooner.

then it now will be later. You know, like, maybe he thought Dance with Dragons would have a field of fire moment because, like, why the big lead up? I think he did. Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised. Yeah, well, battle of fire. Yeah, especially because, like, what, once upon a time when there was, I guess, a five-year gap or other things, Denaries is a Dance with Dragons, P.O.V.

And there would have been no feast for crows at this point. but her POV was supposed to open with essentially Dasnax pit. Yeah, that was going to be the first Danny chapter. That's not the reality in which we live. The reality is it became three, four POVs and it became... But you know what? That's just what happens. It's just what happens. I mean, like it literally did because he was going to like just put them all into that mega prologue. Yep. Time skip prologue.

I see what happened. And it's so because sometimes you forget, like, there is a world where a feast wasn't real. Like, I forgot about that. I was like, oh, yeah, that's right. Feast wasn't supposed to exist. I'm so glad. I'm so glad George was pro-choice about that. He was pro-life about Feast for Crows.

Yeah, but he was pro-life about a Feast for Crows. Thank God. I always feel like, I don't know if this is the right vibe, but I always feel like the beast is kind of like the Empire Strikes Back. Yeah, it is. Empire strikes, but I feel like one. Like, I was my favorite. It's the best one. Yeah, it's the best of the OT3.

I mean, it is. It's literally the best. It's better than that. It is. It is. It is. And it says a lot, you know what I mean? Says a lot. DeNaris takes Missande at this point. Still the slave girl. We don't have the name yet. As a translator and as a token of the bargain, she has offered Missande as a token of the bargain. Yeah. And then I find it.

our campaign for a Missande POV, like, I would be so interested. Because in, we should revive this. Yeah, in this, like, section, she's just being given over to, in her mind, to, like, someone who's going to be her new master. Her life is changing. Everything she knows is about to change in just, like, one single moment, just someone, just one person, just saying one sentence, and her whole life is going to be different. Yeah.

And she has to hold all this shock, this surprise, all of that. she must be afraid if it was me i'd be like terrified i'd be shocked i'd be like overwhelmed but she has to kind of like not react in this moment and and that's just like wow that's a lot that's basically my note that's a lot for miss honde yeah because she's 11 like 10 11 knowing what we've seen like are you go through right as a 10 11 year old like it's it's interesting to be able to to shut the fuck up. Yeah. It's interesting to put that against Missande then, like, obviously not the same experiences whatsoever, but that's the closest age POV pretty much that we have would be

thinking of ARIA. So crazy if we apply the POV idea, you know, for Missande in her head of what she might be thinking, what she might be actually thinking. Yeah. Outside, DeNaris freeze Missande basically immediately and offers her a place as handmaiden, Missande agrees. They're going around and they're going to like this place called the Plaza of Pride, which I don't know. The name of the plazas kind of stood out to me. It's kind of interesting that pride is something to feel proud of. It's a sense of self-worth. And, you know, it comes back to, we're talking about like the refusal to sell the crown and how the idea of pride operates here in Asaport with the Insulli. Can they feel pride? In this time, they have no

sense. They have nothing that they're allowed to own, not even their own names, not even their own identity. So what is there to feel proud of so that it is named as such? And then when Denary speaks to Missande, she does so in Valerian, and so then you have Missande quoting

Quentin Martel here, she goes, oh. And then DeNeres goes, your name is O and of course this foreshadows Quentin's very important Spit away from me, you got to go. Literally go. I'm so sick of you. No, this is a great slip up

And I didn't really put this in the outline, but Missande, like, is asked to introduce herself. And Danny asks her in high Valerian, and Massandas like, oh, oh, and that's probably the cue to you, Missande, that shit's about to go down. She's probably like, oh, shit's about to go down, okay. Yeah, Danny's going to embrace her unbridled rage. Danny asks her about the unsolied, and Missande does give her a lot of information about it. right that they they feel no fear no pain they live only to obey but she reveals that they drink wine that doles the pain and mercy from everything they don't have feelings from the time they're very small danny wonders what to do with thousands of eunuchs when the war's done she's like what

how like pin mentioned earlier how will they live like what happens next for them um asandi says well they could be guards or they could be sold again but you know they're not truly men they can't live as a man would yeah it does make you wonder like what does it mean to live to live as a man I guess like what what does it mean because I think there's an argument to me that they are are men right like your who you are isn't reduced solely to your ability to sexually perform or to reproduce like your gender is not that but there is that question of like well I mean what what do we do with them afterwards right and I think honestly, that is a question that exists even today.

How do we retrain people for different kinds of jobs, labor that are going to exist? And there are retraining efforts, like, for example, when they, the coal mines, other mines, like, that wasn't, that became less of an industry. And so there had to be pivot to like, hey, let's retrain people for different jobs, like to work remotely and other things like that. But even that, you know, how is that going to look in the future? But it also makes me think of the issue of the broken man and how that goes forward in the theme of the story because she's saying, like, they don't know any of these other things. They weren't given the ability to learn how to build a life. And it's because they, as people, their personhood has been erased individually. And we see that happen in Westrose as well, even for people who were not necessarily enslaved through like what war does, right?

It erases a person, so, like, broken man shit, essentially. It does feel like it's being explored through the whole series, maybe. Yeah. I've started watching. I see here you have your Peggy Hill voice. I started watching. I started watching finally King of the Hill. Oh, my God.

I can't wait until you get to my favorite line. You're going to hear it organically from her. How far into the series is. Oh, like a handful of seasons in. You just have to watch all of it, but there's a great one where Peggy. Maggie Hill, who is so wonderful. She says, it is my opinion that the day after Thanksgiving is the busiest shopping day. That's just like, that's just like objective truth.

That's everyone's opinion. That's a fact. So that's why I was like, it does feel as if the series might be exploring this Peggy Hill plays. Got it, got it. I wanted to agree, but I had nothing smart to add. I agree. I was going to say, like, the whole thing about like broken man stuff, when I was rereading this chapter. For some reason, I didn't notice. I've re-read the books, like, so many

times, but for some reason, I didn't realize the bit about the unsullied, like, drinking this, like, wine of courage. Like, for some reason, it just never, like, kind of jumped out at me until I was reading it in detail. I don't think it's a big plot point, right? It doesn't really come up that much off of this. I don't think so. It's just kind of, like, being, like, slipped in there. And I was like... Also, are they recovering? from that addiction too? I think they're weaned off it by the time they're older in order because they want to start

testing like... Yeah. They want to test like so do you feel pain or do not... Right. Like you also shouldn't be like doing ketamine before battle I guess but maybe you should. But I was like wow so like they've actually been drugged almost like

for the entire lives kind of to extent and I was like, whoa that's dark. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

And then that's part of like the whole, it's a called sales demo, I guess, that they give De Nerey's last chapter. Sales a demo. I'm like, here, I'm going to chop off this guy's nipple. I'm like, what the fuck? Yeah. Yeah, De Nerees is worried about. Yeah, and then she's like ascertaining, making sure that, you know, so like when I buy

them, right, they're trained, how are they trained to defend and attack her and slash former masters? What is that like? Obviously, that's going to come into play. And that's why she's so explicit about like, hey, y'all, I'm holding the whip. the whip I'm the master now reminds me a little bit of even like wheeze and the dogs right how do you get people

to turn on their former masters and that happened in a clash of kings but essentially you know Daeneres is worried about selling and buying humans for war and it seems like it's part of that as well she learns Masande had three brothers who became unsullied

and that makes Danny's decision way on her even heavier in terms of like so I own a slave army soon yeah all my note here is just more misonde I was like I've been like when I was rereading this chapter I feel like I was just like tracking her journey

plus she's like standing meekly when she's with Danny and then I think she said something very just like just something like very ordinary and then she had to kind of feel the need to apologize for it I think she said like forgive this one her out bus and it wasn't an out bus at all and then she goes like there's no place for me to go

this I will sell you gladly like she nearly said this one and then she changed to like I and I find that really cool that she's like okay there's a moment where she kind of shifts from this one's left this is to like I and I think that oh there's like little like journey that that's like becoming yourself yeah it even different like it's claiming like again personhood not even saying like this one right because this one erases that there's a person because you compare it to like the Larothi dialect of speaking. They'll say like a man desires blah blah blah or a woman

or a girl, a boy, right? But there's still like a human attached to that noun whereas this one is just like I don't know. Yeah. Yeah, but it really got to me when she was like oh, forgive this one her outbursts and it wasn't even like an outbursts at all and I was like oh

like in Sonday. But yeah. And then she like tells Zani that the unsullied, all questions have been called from them. And it makes me think again, okay, so they have no questions. Like, it's like they don't know. So what about when they're free? How do they like start asking questions?

How do they start like questioning things? How do they start kind of applying the free will that they have? Like is that like what's that deconstruction process? Like, yeah. And again, Miss Sande like mentions her brothers. And I kind of like this moment a lot because Miss Andre doesn't really outright says that, oh, I have these brothers or blah. a kind of like, let's save them kind of attitude, but Danny notices, it's just because

Misande talks about, okay, after you've done using the army, you can order the soldiers to the unsulli to kill themselves. And Danny actually notices that Misande is not thrilled about that idea. She like notices Missande's like discomfort or sadness. And she, and Danny is the one who took the time to kind of like, okay, why don't you agree with this idea and that it opens the floor up for Miss Ande to share about her brothers these parallels between the two of them talking and thinking about their brothers a lot in this chapter. And I feel like that's a cool kind of like small like bonding moment or like in a way that like Danny taking the time out to kind of see her in a way or notice what she's like thinking or might be feeling.

I love that because she's taking so much strength from her own brothers right now. like Missande is doing the same exact thing. Yeah, that's a great call-out of that's sort of like parallel that she sees between them. She has that empathy to notice. And I mean, the empathy is what drives her to be like, I have no choice. I have to have to have them all. I don't really know how their sense of self can be reconstructed again, therapy. I know, like, but Denieres needs therapy too.

Kind of, you know. Not to mention the show again. But I do think, like, one of the things that I did kind of enjoy or find interesting about the show is that they're trying to kind of give us a glimpse of whether rightly or wrongly or whether they landed the execution. It's like they're trying to give more stuff for, like, Greyworm, Misande, to kind of let that breathe a little bit and see. Yeah, however you want to think about it, David and Dan did give us a Missande and Grey Worm POV. Yeah, that's true. I do... Just kidding.

I do wonder if we're going to see, like, I have. We still haven't met Monsi's brothers as far as I know, so. No, I think one of them was briefly mentioned. Maybe, yeah. I hope we don't get to know them more only because they are going to probably die in the war. Like, I hope that's not why we end up getting to know them more. I think actually one of them does die. Yeah, in a dance with dragons.

I think it's in dance, right? Yeah, he hasn't made. You're right. Masaline. Mosulin? Mosulin? Moslin, mauslin. Moslein and Mossado.

Wasado? Well, I hope we don't get to know the other one because probably will also. Damn, George. How'd do us like that? Well, next, Deney's counsels with Jora, boo. Lingering, though, on the memory of Aeroa, the Lazarine girl who was killed despite Deneer's saving her. And she turns and she gives a speech to Jora. I was alone for a long time, Jora, all alone before my brother. I was such a small, scared thing.

Viceris should have protected me, but instead he hurt me and scared me worse. He shouldn't have done that. He wasn't just my brother. He was my king. Why do the gods make kings and queens, if not to protect the ones who can't protect themselves? Some kings make themselves. Robert did. He was no true king. Danny said scornfully. He did no justice. justice, that's what kings are for. So Jora had no answer. He only smiled and touched her hair so lightly. It was enough. I know he said that like she gives a speech to Jora, but it's really at Jora. You know, he wasn't invited to really speak back. That was just at him. Some Stannis at the window monologue looking out thinking about Proud Wing. But what is justice if she can't

make it, right? If she is to rule, if a queen or a king can't bring justice and cannot bring peace to their people then what is the point of them right and that's what she sets out to do after this like she is completely determined in her path of righteousness yeah to do the right thing yeah what or what she thinks is the right thing but here she thinks about her brothers again she mentions vizarius and i really like the line where she says i was alone for a long time i was such a small scared thing and that line gets to me every time it's so relatable in a way but it's also like so with big characters like this a character who's like a conqueror and a queen or like even with like in our own world with women we're deemed to be like powerful and successful but I think sometimes

we don't see them as real human beings or as a real woman or who's the person underneath all of it and when she just said I was a lot of all the time I was such a small, it's a scared thing it tells you so much about who she is and what she's feeling and all this baggage that she's carrying it's quite emotive

so I always love that line yeah it's a good one it's one of the I wants for what's driving this chapter the next great line is why do the gods make kings and queens if not to protect the ones who can't protect themselves

justice that's what kings are for it makes me think of like where danny's journey will take her like she starts out with this very pure belief this kind of determination that she wants to be a ruler who does justice like it starts out with this like very pure intention but it is kind of sad like with all our intentions like most of the time we don't start out with like bad intentions but things happen along the way for it to kind of like shift and change and the kind of kind of of the heart of it becomes lost along the way. And it makes me kind of think, not to jump that far ahead, but what she does to, like, the children, like, went through the masters

in Marine. And she always, like, justifies that. Like, she's doing it for the children. Like, this is justice. And it kind of really kind of gives you a glimpse of, like, how, how easy these noble or pure ideas can kind of be challenged in a way. Yeah, that's a great, great point. And I think it's a difficult line, right, between what is doing justice and doing mercy and she was such a small, scared thing as you pointed out, she never experienced mercy so like hasn't lived in systems that like really

demonstrated. But as you said, justice and kind of trying to convince yourself, like this is what justice means, what does it look? But what does it look like if you've never grown up in a just system? There's no examples of that for her or like abilities for her to study it. But the line you called out of like, why do the gods make kings and queens, if not to protect the ones who can't protect themselves? It feels like such a thematic tie to the decision that Stannis makes at the end of a storm of swords, of like going to the wall and choosing to do that

in this book. But it also even speaks to like, you know, George saying some kings make themselves. I would say even like Mance Rader, right? Mance Rader was like, someone needs to protect all these people to the north of the wall. I will take on this. role of king in a society that has no kings if that's what it takes to protect everyone. And while this might be like a very Stanis speech, her response to Jora is a very Sansa response. He was no true king in the way that she says to Sandor, he was no true knight regarding Gregor Clegane, regarding, you know, justice and protecting people and how their society has failed them despite the structures that they have, the titles that they have.

It makes me think of Rob, too, like the way the North kind of made him king. And because the circumstance is kind of like... That guy. Yeah. Yeah, there's something... Definitely with the crowns too earlier, right? Like, her crown and the importance. I mean, the Northern Crown being lost is so fucking important.

We get a whole POV where it's brought up and then you find it. She remembers, though. But, like, looking back at that line about Robert, like, Robert made himself. in a way for Danny, right? So does she in this very chapter. Yeah. Yeah. But okay, hold on.

Going against it again now, is Jora right? The kings didn't make themselves. Someone else made them king. And that's the case with Denaries, right? Someone else decided that they would all bow and follow her and make her queen at the end of that first book. And like with Nancy Rader, other people decided, he's like, I don't know, I didn't really call myself king.

other people decide other people decide to follow your leadership and that's what that's what happened with Rob I mean he was like make me king some guy like got his fucking fingers cut off and was like I'm gonna go all in on this

later I'm gonna go all in and make this boy king they weren't really king or queen until they did the thing that made them that you know what I mean like somebody can make you a king or a queen but your action like this is her first chapter where she makes she does actions well I mean Carth, but that didn't make her a queen, obviously, by burning down the house of the undying.

But, like, this is, it is a queen-making chapter for herself. Like, it's a defining act that makes them king or queen, right? Rob can be called king in the north, but it really wasn't defined until he captured Jamie Lannister, right? Yeah. Robert also doesn't. Yeah, I would also question kind of Jora, even though Jora is always right. No, I'm joking.

I always question Jora. Every day of my life or question Jora. But no, like, when he was like, oh, some kings make themselves, Robert did? And I was like, did Robert actually make himself? Like, I think to an extent he did by like killing Rhaegor and kind of like, to an extent, it was also basically the people around him as well, like the circumstances that was happening. And Robert was like the most likely candidate in a way. Yeah. Because he didn't.

Like people have been arguing this recently. Like, no, y'all are wrong. Like, some people are right. Like, it was John Aaron's war. He's the one who called the banners, who put his banners up. And Ned was very much a figurehead. And he's the one who is most maligned in many ways. He's like, so like my dad and my brother are dead and my sister was kidnapped.

Robert just happened to have Targary and was there. And they're like, I don't know. He can't want it. And it can't be me. So it's you now. Yeah. I was like, I think the only. king who kind of like made themselves

in a stand. Would that be like Runley? That's true. Look at him. That's a good point. Even Joffrey did it necessarily. Yeah. I mean Runley kind of did, right? But also that was the Terrells that

pushed him forward and kept, you know what I mean? Yeah. Bailen Grayjoy also. Oh my God. It's me. I'm king now. Yes. Bailon. He're like, yes. Yes. Bailon.

what a guy what a guy yeah it was one child yeah very good dad to one child only

the saris won and bailing grey joy problems oh yeah and this one where she says oh Jora touches her hair obviously

he's being a creep again and then she says like it was enough and I was I think I posed a question and like that's enough

like what is enough like is she like is she like oh that's enough just a light touch in my head that's enough or is it like is it enough and like okay that touch alone is enough and i kind of like okay that is this a positive is this like i took it not about the touch i took it about his lack of response is what it is like the fact that she was like that's what kings are for jora and jora was like well you know it was enough it did the job and she's like

so that response i feel like spurs her forward to be like that was enough to convince her that what she was doing was right that like jora didn't have some response to say you're right that is how the world should be and all the kings should be doing this and that right there was an effort to go huh that's enough i'm gonna make it touch her hair yeah yeah i kind of like skipped over that i was like when we reread it here in this uh quote i was like oh oh wow jora shooting his shots again what literally and then notice that she dreams of the lasarene girl and it's just like more foreshadowing are her cause and her intentions ultimately futile like is it is it like really a cycle that she can actually break i think she questions that herself in this moment as well it makes a great tie kind of coming back to what you were also just saying a minute ago pym of like you know in dance when she when she goes forward in dance there's such a big highlight and such a big down fall when Hasea, the child is burned, right, and brought to her. That chapter is very,

like, she's very much in her head and she's like, what have I done? What have I brought back to these intentions and the way the road is paved? Like, I was rereading it yesterday and it's such a sad and really chilling way to open of her just like in her head about it. Like, what have we done? Like, look around. Like, is this the land that I have brought? Are these the things that I have brought in my righteousness. And I feel like that's also really important, like you said, are your intentions futile in the end when you're

facing a machine? Unclear. That night on her ship, Danny cries alone, mourning the loss of Drogon, and argues with her captains who say that she is mad for this deal with the good masters, but she holds her course. And then she dreams that she is Rhaegar

at the Trident, but riding a dragon and burning the usurper's frozen army, she wakes and Quaith appears after or in or out of the dream and gives her the usual riddles about going back to go forward. Can't even just have a good night's sleep. Like, she's just got to show the fuck up. It's like so weird. I'm like, just be normal.

Like, why did you have to do it like this, Quayth? Like, couldn't you have just, I don't know, sent a text for a raven? I don't know. Be fucking normal. Yeah. I really love the way it's set up, though, because it is a little spooky. like it's supposed to be a little swicky, a little creepy, because she's like, I'm like, is she astral planing?

Maybe she's astral planing. I mean, maybe. Glass candle shadow binder shit. Yeah. This is, also it's like really, I like reading. I'm like, huh, fascinating. It's so normal to me because this is the kind of thing I like to watch and read. I love time travel stuff.

As of him is a fan as well, like time travel or like, you know, astral plane or like all these kind of like mystical, supernatural potential things going on. And it's interesting because you get Eerie and Xiqui. waking up and being like, what is it, Kalisi? Because she's like screaming Quaith and like jumping out of bed. And I love how vague it is, though, because it's not necessarily confusing, but it's just lightly, blurry intentionally that like she's, she has this back and forth with Quayth when she's like calling for her handmaidens and Quaith is like, they sleep.

They cannot hear you as if she's put a spell on them, right? She calls out for her maids and Jora and Danny feels like Quaith is standing over her. And afterwards, it feels really real. So afterwards, we have this exchange of a dream. Danny shook her head. I dreamed a dream. No more. Go back to sleep.

All of us go back to sleep. Yet try as she might, sleep would not come again. And it reminds me a bit of the back and forth with Romeo and Mercutio. And Romeo and Juliet, where Romeo says, I dreamt a dream tonight, Mercutio, and so did I. Well, what was yours? That dreamers often lie. And Romeo says, in bed asleep while they do dream things true.

And so they go on in Romeo and Julia and they talk about Queen Mab, the fairy queen. And so Quaith kind of almost appears as a fairy queen herself. And Danny does too in some ways in this story. Queen Mab in Romeo and Julia or Titania in Midsummer Night's Dream or Elfame, Queen Elfam or Queen Elfland in folklore of Danny's story. There's something similar going on here. Quaith here is kind of a warning and a prophecy. In Romeo and Juliet, the fairy's midwife, Queen Mab, is discussed as somebody who influences dreams, unreal wicked dreams, putting them into a fantasy world, chasing something that isn't

real and giving them dreams that highlight their deepest desires of love, money, power, ruling. And Mercutio warns Romeo don't live too deeply in these dreams. Violence and death will come if you don't open your eyes. not unlike what Brand has just learned, right, that he can't live within his wolf and feel nothing. He has to come out. And I think there's something fun here, like in fairy queen folklore in general,

Queen Mab is kind of like a tiny bringer of dreams and nightmares and she rides in a chariot made of insect parts. And she's kind of playful and mischievous and rules the dreamscape. Titania is a bit more warm-hearted and proud and dignified. And she's associated, not unlike Danny, with flowers and moonlight. And the queen of Elfam or of Elfholm,

is kind of darker, more ominous, a ruler of an underworldly fairy realm connected to witches confessions and folk beliefs about traveling to the elf home and sometimes gets merged with ideas of like Morgan or Celtic goddesses. So something fun is going on here with Quaith's appearance, right, of it being a dream or not a dream. It makes you wonder how Danny is hearing, perceiving her if she's real or not, if it's real or not. I mean, I think she's real, but it's weird that she was just over her. Like, was it really physically real? I'm unsure. And there's also something great that like some of these fairy queens are often called like a demon in a woman's body, right? Like the fairy queens and Laura are called that, which Danny kind of gets called that too in a way in the

as we go forward. And Danny also shares a lot of these same appeals and traits with fairy queens too. So I'm like, I don't know. Maybe she's quay. Is Danny quay? No, I'm just kidding. Danny is it you? I bet that theory exists. Oh, it does. I'm sure. I think there's a, there's a theory for, like, Quayth as anyone. Theon-Durton. Quaith is Theon-Durton. Me, I'm Quayth. Oh, my God, maybe.

Maybe. Maybe Jora is Quaith. Uh-uh. Oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Because he doesn't get anything done. I'm sorry. I feel like I'm, yeah, I'm bringing the Jora propaganda a lot in this, like, episode. I'm like trying to and spot him into every conversation. Wow.

I really like the way that you've broken this down. I don't know. Quaith, what are you doing? What are you doing? Why are you here? What's up? Why are you making things more difficult and like more confusing? But yeah, I don't know. There's definitely some sort of magical thing here, but the I dream to dream go back to sleep. It makes me wonder the language that of, you know, the idea of a dream of spring. You know, like the choice of like whether to stay asleep within like this innocence of slumber or like to go forward after everything um as

well uh yeah but also i don't know is this supposed to be hearkening too to the like i dreamed a dream like i dream i'm gonna say the martin luther king oh yeah me and pym were on the same page yeah i mean i think that song a lot in the shower yeah but i was thinking like is it it could be that too but I was like is it hearkening to the Martin Lutheran maybe it's the line in hook and Julia Roberts tells like Robin Williams

in that line between sleep and awake that's where I'm butchering it but actually it's when she's closest to home she's another dream too that's not the weird quays like I don't know fucking sleep paralysis demon one it is kind of that

there are lots of dreams in the series like this is like that's true this is like a sidetrack but one of my favorite absolute like favorite dreams in the entire series it's the dream in Feast on Jamie like dreams of his mom and then he waked up

and it's no way that's like one of my favorite ever ever dreams in this series yeah not too half on about it that one's also But Jamie's like my... A little magical too. Yeah, Jamie's my favorite P.O.B.

But yeah. Interesting. You know, you can't account for having taste. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. I did like you before Pim, but now it seems where I'mese and we shall have to meet on the field of battle. I'm sorry, Chloe. I'm just here saying Jamie's my favorite P.O.B.

I'm advocating for Jora. You're kind of a problem today, but you know what? I still like you, buddy. You're still my friend. Because I can, you know, I can reach across the aisle, is what I'm saying. I understand. I'm a benevolent and gracious queen. At least I'm not team Jeremiah.

Thank God. Thank fucking God. Can say that louder. Jeremiah Fisher can burn. Just kidding. Susanna would have just knocked him upside. Like, what is you doing? What is you doing, baby?

Anyways. I don't know what anyone's doing in that show. I'm just like, what are all of you doing? Real. So silly. just date other people um so the white dream yeah so yeah she has a she has another dream again um this time it's of she thinks the trident and the frozen army uh which we're obviously all thinking about the whites because it's how this book opens up with that prologue at this and also sam's

first chapter sobbing sam took another step brilliant shit uh but it's also very much a parallel right that it comes up now, it's a parallel to the insullied, and why everything that's happened to them is so horrific, because we've talked often, I don't know, it's been a few years now, but we've talked often anyways about how, like, the insullied are very much this parallel storyline to what's happening with the others. Because even without magic, the good masters, and it's happened in a real world as well, like, there are people who would seek to strip that humanity from others to kill the person and use only the body, and the whites are very much just a much more. literal manifestation of that but it's the same yeah don't you see don't you see it's the same the next morning dinaries rides into asapur dresses a chalasi i'm out here um thinking if she looks back she is lost her hair is braided with a silver bell her dragons were chained to an open litter for all to see yeah i picked out the fact that she's wearing like this like dothraki clothes like as opposed to in the beginning of the chapter when she was wearing her Carthian gown with her like her left head like all out but now she's like all like yeah that's already

I like how much like George puts details into like these kind of like the symbols that that's happening here and it really gives like me like think think about the last chapter I think when Jora was telling her the story of the 3000 of core versus like the Dothraki So this is kind of like a bit of like another kind of showdown again between the Unsurliad and the Lothraki. But it's like a twist on what happens there. And I think that's kind of cool. Like George is kind of creating parallels with his own law or with his own like mythology, which is really cool. Yeah, I like this little detail as well where she like, she just looks over at her people, at her entourage.

And she's just like, oh, maybe I should have a banner stone. like my own banner made. And I think that's just a cool, like kind of like cool detail for someone who's been following Danny from the beginning. And now she's kind of like building this army that's like gathering people. And now she's kind of not to use this one, but like building her brand up. She's kind of like trying to kind of, yeah,

things are coming together in a way. And I find that if you're someone who's rooting for Danny, it's kind of like a very cool moment. It is. I didn't notice that's so great. Like, yeah, that she's. using those visuals and like hearketing that as you said dothraki and versus how that that legend

in cohort i really like that yeah and i always kind of always wanted to know more about her blood writers because i always say like whenever she has this like kind of like badass moment when she's like riding out or whatever she's she always like kind of like oh her blood riders like flank around her or she like calls her blood writers and this image of her coming with her like blood writers and I wish we kind of like know more about them like we always get their names and we don't really like we don't really see how they're different as people as well we don't really get it's the biggest weakness of these chapters is that Danny's supporting cast is not given any support by George we don't know shit about most of them and it's so cool like the concept like blood writers the fact that she has them but more yeah yeah it is kind of a feeling I think again like and I'm going to call it out as such on George's part and I think You know, it's kind of cool to see, like, the way that the people have evolved on the ability to discuss this topic. Like I saw recently on the Asanga Vice and Fire subreddit, and the topic has come up many times over the years of, you know, is there, there are elements of Orientalism to the way that Denieres' associate chapters are written with some of the cast around her compared to how the other Westerosi characters are treated. And while, like, that didn't get, like, a lot of upboats.

The discussion was actually, like, very open to talking about it. and being very, like, measured and really, like, actually saying, like, yeah, I mean, there is that. It is, in fact, something that George has kind of, like, fallen short in when writing, but hopefully he can correct that in the future. And, like, there wasn't any, like, flame fighting? Like, it was just, like, a discussion? Is nature really? Yeah, as far as I can tell, I think, yeah, as far as I could tell, like, it seemed like there was actually, like, pretty good, like, deep discussion. People were open to the idea that, yeah, it is written with some of that.

but I think part of it is like people know the term more now and what it means because I remember I had to explain to someone like back then and they're like you can't use the term I'm like well the term is like an academic term used to describe this phenomenon also I am Southeast Asian I'm not like out of your safe versus I'm allowed to say this so you mean someone was like oh you can't say or rentalism well they were like that's an outdated term well I was like well yeah I know I know what it's describing I'm the person who like is on the other end

of what happens when people do this Anyway But yeah I love the way that you've called out like all those And also yeah The Dothraki And yeah she is flanked by her bloodrider She's also flanked by strong Bellwoss in Nassande

And they're there at the front You know like that's absolutely a statement Same way like later on with like Marine When she sends her champion It's Bellwoss like that's a statement To send a former slave to be your champion and to be here. I love that.

It is such a, it's like a total dynamic shift, right? All the hints of like what's about to go wrong for the slavers have been there the entire time. They just didn't open their eyes. Probably because of that tart person, wine, I'm telling you, because all that ignorance they were drinking. But they just have. Oh, are you saying? I thought you're saying the wine was strong.

No, no, no. I mean, maybe. No, no. I'm saying they're drinking a metaphor. but um yes it's all falling into place and like i love what you guys have both detailed out that her group is falling into place right her entire like gang of people that are leading with her and as well as like she's getting these armies that she's going to free and if they want to follow her they can follow like things are falling into place to create her own kingdom or to have her

be able to lead and take her own kingdom and that's what gives her kind of that confidence to think huh, maybe I should sew a banner. Like, I haven't been confident in it or thought of it till this point. And it's interesting because, like, I think we talk a lot of, like, rehabilitation of people for, you know, whether it's like prison abolition, right? And, like, how do you rehabilitate somebody who has been there? And this is a very different experience, but it's how do you rehabilitate and bring up and bring people up in your leadership, right?

To give them rights in a place that they can help write out this new world that you're trying to have everyone live in? What does that look like? She doesn't know yet. No one knows yet because it hasn't been done. But this is the start of it as they ride into the slavers. I wasn't sure also, like, as we're riding into it with the Dothraki, if there was also meant to be an inversion there, right? Because, or like a couple of things. Like she's bringing these people into her Colossars, they conquer them. But the Doth Rocky, a lot of them were up until this time since like the century of blood, et cetera. I've kind of been conquering and just taking these people and selling them back into slavery, it is

like using that to Yeah, well-spotted. Well-struck, Aliana. I only noticed it because Pim was bringing. I was like, that's true. Oh, thank you, guys. As they ride in, Danny sees slaves that have been flayed alive rotting out on a wooden scaffold

in the plaza of punishment as an example of what happens to others who rebel. She sees it and she hates the cruelty of this city. Yeah, this is also like, what's the quote? Brick and blood make as to four.

Yeah. And all of that all over again. But I really like this tiny detail. There's a, there's a detail, a very tiny detail that George kind of slipped in here. Is that when she's like going through the past of punishment, she sees these like two lovers kissing in the shade of tall green trees. She could not tell if there were slaves of free because they weren't wearing any clothes. But I love this like inclusion of this line because it gives you a little bit of

like sweetness or a little bit of like okay even amongst all this horror and all this like bloodshed there's still people are still trying to find ways to like love or connect or to kind of like be free in a way and i like how you can't really tell if they're slaves are free and it's like this like tiny it it like it feels kind of jarring that there's like this little tiny moment but it just feels like really meaningful. Yeah. It's such a good line. It's so well written.

And, you know, taken together with, like, she's thinking about how all the people, as she's riding into here, she thinks that everyone came out, they're looking out their windows because they, too, wish to glimpse dragons. And it goes well with her thinking,

ah, the people here in Asapur are not so different than from the ones in Carthine. And it's, like, really playing into that idea of, like, hey, everything is just trappings of power all the clothes, all of it. It's just performance, but stripped for all people. Yeah, I love that. And, you know, there's also this line there of the stream that the Astoporri called the worm and that children are playing in it. The worm. I was obsessed. The worm. I'm obsessed, but also because it's the display of innocence of a people, right? You have children playing the stream,

not unlike the water gardens in Dorn that we eventually see. It reminds me of when Danny thinks about the kingdom she wants, right, of beautiful ladies and happy children and happy families. And the reminder of why she's doing this, to give everyone the chance to feel love, to be free, to love, to have free will, right? It's not one one, but the last chapter right before this ends with John and Eagrit, right? It ends with him thinking, if this is so wrong, why did the gods make loving feel so good? Why does love feel so good? Then echoing it here. Yeah, that's true, right? Actually, it's true. a good, like, contrast. This echoed in seeing, like, the enslaved suffering immediately after

this, that glimpse of love in a rotten place. How do you get that for everyone? How does everyone get that? We found love in a hopeless place. Yes. Okay. I love that song still. Pim's already in. Pim gets it. She's like singing on the episode. I think we're talking like three songs already today. That's just a light day, honestly. I don't know, we've got, we've had a, I dreamed a dream. Hey, we still got like two pages left, okay? Yeah. Him and I are going to be harmonizing.

Oh, God, you do not want to hear me harmonize. Oh, bring it. In the plaza, Danny finds her army's waiting. 8,600 unsullied and spiked bronze caps and over 5,000 boys standing still as stone. I like the description that George, like, uses in this. chapter. I think, like, now that I'm a writer and I write my own books, I find, I think I always say this, I plagiarize a lot in a good way. Like, maybe that comes across badly. Let me pray. George does it too. George has said it. I take inspiration. But no, but like now when I

read books, I pay attention more to kind of specific words that authors use or just like the tone they try like descriptions that they use and I in this passage what really stands out here is like the color imagery that George uses there there are so many very bold very like bright colors very like jarring colors he talks about the flies and maggots like the colors that the connotation that these flies and magas have and then there's like the colors like red and white and then the black stripes and the slaves back like all of this the colors that he's like mixing here gives off a very like very gory very like raw image that's very like striking use of color yeah yeah absolutely he's very good at imuing that and yeah the way that it plays with that color because at

first she's just like oh i thought this guy was painted and she's like no yeah he's flayed the arm was fully black because of all the uh flies writhing upon it and the reason this this specific slave i guess had been punished so is because the slave raised a hand towards his owner and like we know that that's not the whole story right like there are no one can truly own another person as

Zaneri says I mean she says a dragon is no slave and what more a person and you were talking earlier about the series that kind of like conjures up the idea right like eventually she finally does try to defend herself and return that violence only

in defense and perhaps like this slave tried to do and it's the difference of when you have access to the dignity and power within the system versus not like imagine how many times the slave must have been struck to finally once raise a hand and this

is how they are met yeah and then speaking of like the people with power and the description of the masters in this section like they're updast sipping wine from silver floats trays of olives and cherries and

big like there's like there's like the colors here again like black and red but that's like a big contrast between what's in the plaza itself and also this comment again like this drenching perfume this giant contrast between blood horror of slavery and violence and this kind of rich like wealthy and it makes me think like this is like might be a bit of an out-that reference but it makes me think of this scene in The Last Jedi. It's a very controversial. That was the echo that you had. Another a feast for crows. I love a feast for

crows. Yeah, it's a very controversial movie, The Last Jedi. But there's a storyline that I myself think is not that well executed. It can be done better. But there's like where Finn and Rose go to Canterby, this like casino town. And there's a scene where

at first Finn gets that and he looks around. He's like, oh, everything is like awesome it looks amazing and then rose is like rose says to him like look deeper like look beneath all the glitz and the glamour and the wealth and stuff like that and then you see the violence and you see the people being trampled on and all the stuff that's underfoot and really reminds me of that like the huge gap between the people with power and the people with wealth and the people who are who don't have those things we're at the last Jedi appreciators on this podcast. And I remember, I remember there was like such a stark contrast in the way that I felt leaving the midnight showing of The Last Jedi versus the rise of the sky.

I was so bad. I wanted to leave, but I was with all of my family so I couldn't leave. Like we had to watch it. It was terrible. Yeah, I mean, we watched the whole thing, obviously, but like the last Jedi I like left it. I was like, you know, it wasn't perfect. But I was fucking jazzed with the direction of where we were taking this story. It was a star. And like, as you said, what you pointed out was part of that and also even the colors like the fighting the battle scenes with like the red and they did a good job of using uh yeah anyways this is we could totally do a whole podcast on that i swear to god like it's so good we won't because we're not star wars no we literally don't want to open that fucking can of worms i'd rather get killed but we only want to swim in the worm yeah in the worms of cans of worms um thank you for bringing that up we love we love we love we love we love we love we love we Love a Feast for, I mean, The Last Jedi, so thank you for bringing that up. Thank you for hearkening, too. And thank you, Ryan Johnson.

Yeah. We're only talking about, like, great. We've been talking about some good Star Wars movies today on this podcast. Yeah. Something else, like the plaza of punishment, it's, like, way bigger, apparently, than the plaza pride. So that's a big sad, and there's no statues in the plaza of punishment. Unlike in the plaza pride, instead, they just have real people, not statues in the plaza of punishment. and they are unsurprisingly being punished.

So that really says something about what their society values for that to be larger than the one of pride. Also, regarding the unsullied, there's a line that seems to describe them as stone half men. And I thought that that was really interesting. We talk about the dragon eggs being made of stone and being brought back to life. That's part of, I guess, some of the things that are coming back here

as their freedom is restored upon. them but also it's very Tyrion coded language you know he's described as a gargoy but also like a half man he claims that he claims that with power you know in a clash of kings and they're like half man half man whatever um but it's a great tie for them both because tyrian's going to play probably a big role in her story and how her party is very much made up of these people who don't really fit the model of masculinity that Westrose looks for in being like I think this guy should be king because he's the manliest man so good call i didn't even think about that that's really fun the stone half man half man yeah interesting krasnus boasts that the unsullied will sack cities for her but they

will have no lust for plunder and they can also be resold he pulls drogan's chain while handing her the harpies fingers wit the mark of command like the quote that i pulled out from this passage is when, basically, when Krasniss tells Danny that when she uses the unsullied to sack cities, she can resell the people that she capture back into slavery. Like, the line is, thus all, yeah, thus all show prosper. Like, there's, yeah, it's like, it really gives you, like, oh, it's a functioning business. It's, like, a very functioning system. Like, there's so many moving parts.

It's just, like, with always supply and demand. it's like there's a machine it's like a machine kind of and it's a very small code but i pull it out because i feel like it really shows kind of the mindset and what it's like to operate in this system and this machine itself i love that you called it out because it's a brief line but as you said so illustrative and yeah you can tell that because it's like what about what about the people who were in the slavery they true they're not fucking prospering who's all and regarding who gets to be a person who doesn't and the way that they describe

the unsullied and she's like yeah they're all like you can use them for plunder these are all the things these are all the capabilities of what you can do it almost feels like a dark mirror to the way like I don't know this is a big stretch but the way shade and woe sell to what's his fucking name

I don't even remember that boy's name but like Sand Kings and San Kings yeah the guy the guy I'm like so hype that you brought this up because it is. Yeah, they're all like, I don't know, you can do all these, but they say nice, cool things about the Sand Kings. But they also are like, I don't know, you can have them fight battles with each other if you want. But they don't, they're not like, oh, you should do all this crazy shit because they don't, they're like, you did fucking what?

No, I love that you brought the Sand Kings because like also, when I think about Sand Kings, like I see the broken man speech. Like when, like I visualize, this is going to take you back. You guys remember Windows Media player? Simon, his name's Simon. Yeah, you're right. Do you remember Windows Media Player and how like they would do visualizers on music back in the day? Yeah. Good. I just wanted to make sure before I said this that like somebody old understood me who's also old. It's something I only saw in a museum because I'm, you know, 15 years old. Yeah. Because you're so young and no little of the way of war. But like, so like hear me out the visualizer and how like it visualizes to music and would show the flow of music. Like when I hear the. broken man's speech, that, like, bit of, like, and the man breaks and he goes over and blah, blah, blah, blah. I visualize that, right?

Like, you see a war. You see, like, armies going at each other and, like, dissolving against each other and the rhythm of the war and the battle. Do you see it? Eliana, it looks like you might see it. Are you seeing it? Yes. Okay, good.

And you, you, you, like, Chloe likes to sometimes be like, Eliana. Close your eyes. She just say, like, she doesn't say Eliana close your eyes. She just tells people, she tells the audience, close your eyes. But Eliana also closes her eyes. It feels important to me. I'm glad that thank you for all. always um you know amusing me uh but like the sand kings that's what i see right like when you

imagine the sand kings it's the same look as the war of of the men going back and forth and destroying each other until there's nothing left and i see that with sand kings and like the way that the way the thus all shall prosper like again how do you know oh that well that's all they like that's all they like to do is do the battle that we make them do and like then they're happy they just train and do what we make them and that's the only thing they've ever known and that's what they like is the attitude that the slavers have. And it's like, okay, but have they done anything other than that? How would they know?

I don't know. You could bring me up and like have me like pile sand grains into a pyramid my whole life for years, right? Sometimes I eat, sometimes I shit. Sometimes I drink water. But like that's it. That's all you have me doing. And yeah, maybe that would be my favorite activity because I was never given any choice

in any other activity, right? So there's something interesting there of like the sand kings and literally what's about to happen in this chapter is that there's going to be a big frowny face that the sand kings have built of their ruler of their master and they are soon going to attack so very excited they shall inherit the earth

in this chapter go sand kings biblical language yeah yeah Danny lifts up the whip high so all unsullied see her as their new master she shouts out they belong to her the dragon queen

Krasnus tugs on Drogon's chain, but the dragon resists, hissing and snapping, and he insults Danny, still mocking her in Valerian, and Danny responds in perfect Valerian as we close out the chapter. She stood in her stirrups and raised the heartless fingers above her head for all the unsullied to see. It is done. She cried at the top of her lungs. You are mine. She gave the mare her heels and galloped along the first ring, holding the fingers high. You are the dragons now. You're bought and hateful. It is done. It is done. She glimpsed old Grasden turned his gray heads sharply. He hears me speak Valerian.

The other slavers were not listening. They crowded around Krasnus and the dragon, shouting advice. Though the Astopori yanked and tugged, Drogon would not budge off the litter. Smoke rose, gray from his open jaws and his long nap, curled and straightened as he snapped at the slaver's face. It is time to cross the trident. Danny thought, as she wheeled and rode her silver bat, her blood riders moved in close around her. You are in difficulty. He will not come. There is a reason. A dragon is no slave. And Danny swept the lash down as hard as she could across the Slaver's face. Krasnus screamed and staggered back, the blood running red down his cheeks, into his perfumed beard. The harpy's fingers had torn his features half to pieces with one slash,

but she did not pause to contemplate the ruin. Drogon. She sang out loudly, sweetly, all of her fear forgotten. Dracarius. Yeah, no, literally. And then, of course, she flings the whip away, shouts freedom, while her dragons burn Astipur behind her, and the unsullied closes out, taking up her cry of Dracarus as they march forward through fire

and chains breaking all around her. Whoa, wow. Okay, that was a bad time. I'd like some, like, trumpets. this is such a like a badass scene like it's such an like iconic amazing scene but i need to like point out that kind of the law of the rings reference when she takes the um the the web she says like it's such a light thing to bear such weight it makes me think of boring me and when he goes like it is a strange faith that we should suffer so much fear and doubt over so small thing

such a little thing interesting i was like yeah and i like it is it is very, I don't know, the fact that the whip is like a gilded claw, I love how like detail George is with these like little kind of like details like with the clothes, the food that you say and now like the whip itself. Like there's so many details that she put it, that he put into this. That's like so just like so cool from a storytelling, well building like aspect. Also it's just so powerful and then they take it up after her. Yeah. It becomes their battle cry too. yeah but there's a part that I put a note here that is

basically the agency of the unsullied and this is like I've thought about this like I don't know if this is like kind of like ruining the fun of the scene in Elizabeth but I do kind of like go ahead Pam ruin it girl

I'm like Jora shooting my shot at the wrong moments but yeah it doesn't that is what he does but yeah the agency because it's such a badass moment she's like ordering the unfurly to like kill the masters and stuff like that but it does kind of make me question here does she like actually free them before she orders them to kill the masters and stuff sometimes under one are they assing this badass moment like killing the masters because they're still like

under obeying her as a master in this moment like if she were to free them and then be like now let's kill the masters together would that make a difference would that be kind of giving them basically my question is like how much agency do the unsullied have in this moment even though it's such a badass cool moment kind of like okay

they should kill the masters but it's like even though she's like giving them freedom in this moment or after this like how much Asian's aid do they really have in this moment is that a shooting my shot at the wrong moment you're a question no I don't think it is because I want

I wondered the same thing too, so I re-read the scene a couple of times trying to understand, because I know people also asked that same question of like, I mean. Yeah. Because the show, it's clear. Like, they do add that, which actually, it confuses me because I had to reread it like five times to make sure I didn't have the show in my head because she very clearly frees them first and says, like, you can do it. Yeah. Yeah. If they're given, yeah, yeah, exactly. And I think if they're given, a lot of people have raised a question, like, you know, if they're given no choice, really, no alternatives.

are they truly free, right? And, like, as, you know, in regards to, like, following her and not. I think in this moment, there's an, it's a little of both. It is ambiguous because to an extent, like, when they start seeing what's going on, like, the unsolid aren't fucking stupid, they're like, oh. Kill them. We're doing that. Yeah.

They're like, oh, they're like, okay, so she attacked the master's something's happening here, right? And, like, you would think that, and they know, I guess. reverse everything because like one of the Grosdons is all like defend us and they don't yeah but part of it is like is that the obedience or is it them being like no fuck you yeah but the fact that they shout back Dracari's is I think and that they take it on as their cry when they aren't really given any voice at all they're not told to speak they're not allowed to speak for them to take on that cry I think is meant to be his way of showing and not telling that way they're I chose it as well

because I was like I don't But I do think like there is an ambiguity to it That isn't in the show, that's for sure I think it's ambiguous intentionally Yeah, that's what I think I think it's supposed to be I lean towards it is ambiguous intentionally Because they were not given their freedom technically

And they do take up her battle cry It's not their own Yeah I mean I'm not saying it's bad Like anything's like I love killing slavers But yeah I just want to I want to make it very clear. I think all slavers should burn. I want to say that very loudly before I says, but I just like, I do think it's ambiguous intentionally and that they aren't necessarily given this isn't the moment that they're all of a sudden like, okay, here's your packet, go be a real human now. You know, like there isn't anything. It doesn't exist to do that yet. That doesn't exist yet. That world and that life of being able to have that, like, and how you navigate that isn't something that's real yet. And that's really what Danny spends the entire next book also navigating. Right.

yeah yeah it's a good question and I do think it is like something yeah like you know I don't think you're shooting your shot at the wrong time I think it's something yeah that is being explored and still badass I mean like are they taking on her dragon cry or like her her battle cry or are they all taking turns telling the dragons dragon fire yeah yeah right let me try let me try it I want to do it I mean looking back at the history of it too like so then we kind of back to talking about the history of what happened with the valerians here too so it's interesting that taking up the valerian cry of dracharis and what that means here there's so little there's space and ask for you yeah i think this is what like george is great at he presents us with

something that's on the surface it's supposed to be like badass supposed to be this good like positive thing but they are like complicated layers and like more kind of like complexity hidden in all of it which is like what he's like really good at. Have you read Feverdream, Pim? No, I have. Oh, you should. I think you would really like it. I think you should read it.

Okay. There's a lot of some really interesting. Like you can see where he originally was starting to work out some of these same questions and thoughts in Feverdream. And I really appreciate where he. And that's why I'm like, I think it is ambiguous intentionally because he has written before similarly about this where some of it is somewhat vague or something goes from being vague to being clear.

And so I find like it very fascinating how he is writing and exploring that rebuilding of like, how do you build back from this? How does someone get a life from this when there's no infrastructure for them to have it? Yeah. It's not a bad question of are they truly fear or not because again, in reconstruction era, they're like, well, we can't legally have slaves. So we will create loopholes that are also in effect and slave people as well because they have no other choice, which is kind of what George decides that he's going to

going to go down as a tangent in book five um also it's like happening all the time still so like every day of our lives like right now absolutely yeah like that's how that's why the american healthcare system is the way that it is that's why the american anything is the way that it is because we were built on slavery and it's still slavery yeah it's just sparkled up with maybe a paycheck and insurance you can't afford there are people out there that work and they don't get basically anything you know but yeah so it is all very valid questions. Something that I did think was kind of fun because, you know, George raised Catholic knows all this stuff is the language that De Neri's uses specifically. She keeps going,

it is done, you are mine. It is an echo of like Jesus's last words. It's not his only last ones because, you know, resurrection, whatever. But like he goes, it is finished as he's like dying upon the cross. And like, that's meant to signify that the payment is complete. Hence De Neri is also saying you are bought and paid for. Like those are all like, part of what he's sort of referencing here it's again that messianic language and the Christian idea of like death upon the crucifixion and resurrection and again blood we're talking about brick and blood here having ransom those people's like forgiveness and cleansing blood is used as like a cleanser right within the imagery and the language of Christianity like sacrifice you know

also like the yeah exactly and the unsullied and you know weaving through it these ideas of freedom and those tones into Dineries' story, but with, again, those very religious aspects. Yeah. The story of Exodus as well, the freeing of the place, the blood above the door, all of that. Yeah, oh, yeah, yeah, the Passover. Passover in the Lamb's Blood.

Yeah. There's a great line that in a fever dream that makes me think kind of of a lot of what's to come for Danny and dance, but also of this chapter where Joshua York says, our races are not so very different. All of us have good and evil in us and all of us dream. And I love that line of like all of us have good and evil in us and all of us dream because it not only circles back kind of too. Earlier when you're looking at like were they freed people that were kissing, were they enslaved people that were kissing. You don't know. You don't see that. Right. They're just people that were kissing and that idea of the good and bad. Like Stanis said that one time in that one line. You know, piles, good, bad, whatever. But there's, something with that messianic kind of language and that goodness that does come from like Jesus's message whether they decided to hear it or not right like yeah Jesus's message also kind of was supposed to have supported that of like good message honestly yeah i mean i think that guy

had a couple things going for him not the nine inch nails or whatever but you know good things oh those oh they are not the band yeah i thought i was thinking like aries not cutting his fucking fingernails. There's a great moment that can almost get kind of like glossed over because of all the other great shit happening in that end of passage where she thinks it is time to cross the Trident. And I love that she, it's interesting because she's embraced Rhaegar's defeat as a victory, though, almost, right?

Like how she is going to turn it into a victory. And not only that, but she's also chronicled it and referenced it as part of her. own point, right, of, like, reference. Like, this is my brother's great battle. And so now I must embrace it. We haven't really seen anyone say their battle was like Rhaegars. No one's embraced Rhaegar as some, like, you know, oh, other, you know, I'm, no one's on their battle. Rob's not out of battle thinking just like the great Rhaegar once did. That's not, that's not, that's not Not everyone, yeah, not everyone is John Connington. Yeah.

Okay. Yes, I called. Good point. Let me walk that back. Besides John Connington. And also, no one has imbued the emotional importance into this that DeNaris has imbued into Rhaegar's story. Like, nobody else cares about the importance of whatever Rhaegar thought he was doing on that trident, who he was doing it for. Danny doesn't really realize the truth of the Trident, the truth of the rebellion or what was going on in full.

She doesn't realize that crossing the Trident for Rhaegar was not some big victory. It was done for love, right, in a way. It was still done for love and done in the hopes of a new day of peace in a different way. But it wasn't actually, like, Roberts Rebellion was because of the tyranny that was going on in the crowd. It was not like, the Targaryans weren't necessarily the good guy. guys. Yes, Raygar was like trying to stop his dad, but he was also embroiled in all of this in so many other ways in connections with no control. Danny doesn't know any of that. She doesn't know the politics of that. But in this moment in crossing her own Trident, her own Rubicon, she ascends

Ragar's story, right? Like she's done something bigger than Vassaris or Ragar ever did. She has done something bigger than the Trident. She has created a historical moment, like way great. with more meaning in what her role is and what she's doing in the world than Rhaegar ever did. But I also kind of like wonder, because there's so much of her brothers are mentioned in this chapter, I do, I also think it's also kind of a bit like her, because she said, I was alone for a long time, I was such a scared, small thing that her invoking Rhaegar in this moment, it's also a bit like of her being like, she doesn't want to do this alone in this moment and kind of like thinking of rega kind of ascending like kind of realigning herself with

rega is a bit like okay i'm bringing my big brother with me in this moment i'm kind of taking my big brother with me in this moment and he's the only even though she romanticizes rega because he's he's the only brother that who's never actively hurt her or he's such a contrast to vizarius in her head so i always kind of read this moment also as her in this entire chapter with her mentioning her brothers like it's kind of like her trying to grab hold of a sense of family or a sense of i'm not alone in this moment i'm about to do this big historic thing i want my big brother to be here with me i kind of like want it not to be just me in this moment i also kind of read it that way as well and just be kind of yeah being

Danny being a bit like, okay, yeah, trying not to feel alone in that moment too, I think. Yeah. I like that because it makes me think of, I mean, she's trying to, in her head, in her heart, recreate, even though they're not there. She's bringing her Vesena and Rani's along with her during this conquest. In Veseris Ves. Oh. I mean, like, I don't think, I think George did that, not me. Honestly.

No, I think you did this. interesting cute Pam I love your response I know you also highlighted it is time to cross the Trident it's this and also kind of it's just a cool phrasing

it's just cool phrasing it's just very like it's just epic phrasing I think I highlighted it because of course the Raika stuff yeah and the fact that she named all her three dragons after the three men who have been

like who she feels like has had the most impact on her life and then she's like invoking Riga in this moment but yeah I just highlighted it also because it's such cool phrasing it is time to cross the Trident I feel like maybe it's because of my writer brain I just like the way the sentence sounds and it's very stirring

especially if you know the history of this world it's just very like yeah let's go kind of moment yeah it is time to cross the Trident and it goes it goes pretty well for her unlike for that other boy that other king who tried to cross the trident recently in this book.

Rob fought valiantly and Rob died. No, no. Sorry, but it is what it is. There was something that you were saying earlier of like, you know, how like one of you, maybe it was you, Chloe, like the tricksterness of it and Walter Frey and I was like, oh. May have, it's May.

Yeah, I guess this is like the good version of the Redwood. There must be a balance in the force, right? this balances the red wedding. Oh my god. There's so much today. So much Star Wars today.

Every day actually, but yeah. Dude, I don't know. I've been getting like Anakin and Padmae memes lately on TikTok. I don't know why this is happening. Probably because I'm very in right now too. Apparently. You know, I've had a very Star Wars summer. So everything in your algorithm is probably also getting a little affected.

I finish a marathon, like a really much marathon of all Star Wars movie, just recently. We did that. recently. We didn't do the sequel or the, um, we didn't do the sequel, sequel, sequels, but we will eventually. Oh, so all two of them? All two of them? Sadly, I did. Sadly, I did the, you watched Rise. Yes, I did. Girl, do you hate yourself? Are you okay? Do I need to fly there? Are you okay? Oh, God. I questioned that myself, but I was like, okay, I started this endeavor. I'm going to like finish it but it's like the all the second time in my entire life I've ever seen it so I've seen it once and I was like no more and then I was like okay I'm gonna and then yeah

yeah it's grim yeah but you just I'm on a clone more rewatch as well now so um we watch a couple a day you know we're getting through it I think we're almost at season four it's getting this is like another day too I also just read the revenge of the Sith novelization have you read that because it's not it's as far as Star Wars novel go, it's actually very good. I'm going to check that. And I did read it, especially because of Danny chapters, actually, but I think there's some good shit in there.

Yeah, this is another detail, but Andol is really good. Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah. Yes. I was, like, heavily obsessed. That's also the reason why all of the rewatching happened, to be fair. We watched it before the finale. Yeah.

Yeah, I did that too. Back to Danny. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I was just, I was just, I was saying. I mean, as you said, it is time to cross the try to great line. There's a lot of the things that are just like, that's just a good line, you know? Like, it's a very rhythmic chapter.

You got, like, for example, rank on rank on rank, like repeated throughout all of it. And how, like, Dracari's also gets that drumbeat as well. There's just a lot of, just like bangers in this chapter, you know? Yeah. Bigger lines. That's it. Yeah. I can't go the distance.

My God. Pam, do you have any closing? thoughts on Danny 3 before we close out the chapter? I think my closing thoughts is that when I was rereading this, I was like, oh, this is such a cool chapter, but it just makes me kind of like, it makes me want to continue reading to see where she goes from this, but it also gives me, like I said, I use this while I lost, but it is kind of heartbreaking because you kind of see the beginning of all this taking shape, like the good intentions behind it, the.

the reclaiming her power, all that behind what she does. But then you kind of know where the road is going and you kind of know that it's not as simple as you want it to be. Or it's not as simple as it's painted at the end of this chapter. And it is kind of, oh, it like gets to you a bit. So, yeah, so I was just like, wow, it's just an amazing chapter. There's so many things, like, packed into it. And I just want to thank the two of you.

for letting me choose this chapter and letting me come on. I know this is not about the chapter, but I just want to say, you guys are doing such a great job. Like, I've always admire you guys because it's, I feel like in our modern world, because there's so much, like, opinions online about everything.

You're bombarded with different takes. And if you... And Anakin and Paddemy. Yeah. And like, if you think about, if you express your opinion and someone disagrees or someone has it, it's so hard to have a nuanced dialogue.

But what you guys do is, like you guys take this thing that's like this awesome thing and you guys dissect it and you guys put a lot of thought and intelligence and a lot of like heart into it but you also have fun with it in a way that's like welcoming and inclusive which is really cool so I just want to say that and just yeah like it's been thanks Pam yeah it's been so fun I feel like a lot of people who listen to this or agree that it's been so cool to have you guys be like voices and this like fandom. It's so cool. Thanks, Pam. Stop, I'm going to cry.

Thank you. That was really nice. That was very thoughtful. You're a very thoughtful young lady, and I very much appreciate you. That's kind of fucked up, but I still like you. Yeah. Thanks, feelings. Wow. For you at home, if you have not purchased, the moon represents my heart, you can get it. The fuck are you doing, but you should go get it. This was published back in 2023 so you've had two years to read it and you still haven't so we are

I've got three copies yeah Elion has three copies I got also specifically the UK one because I liked the cover better cover more no offense to your artists there have been some like interesting covers because we've had the Spanish cover the Italian cover the Indonesian cover and some of them have been very interesting the UK cover though is like that is beautiful it's so beautiful you got to check it out you can get this

I think you can get it Barnes & Noble you can go Amazon but if you have a little bookstore please ask them to bring it in that would be awesome and get this book by Pym we will put a link down for you to find it somewhere else and Pim where can everyone find you online I'm on Instagram at pym.1 day show what and I have a website if you google my name or my book like I come up I'm on Twitter but I don't post anything on Twitter it's mostly like me reposting like movie takes and me doing like pop culture like stuff like I repost like the Liam D's and Pamela Anderson News of them getting together I'd be like oh my god it's so good oh my god I hope this true it's beautiful it's so beautiful my Twitter is like I'm like I should

watch the naked gun okay look I'm sorry you should watch old naked gun too old naked gun is really good too but I hear anyone's really good. But also there was this really cute interview where they were together in an interview and the interviewer was like, Liam, like, or to Pam, like, what do you think his greatest like accomplishment is blah, blah, blah, and she starts naming off

all these movies. And she said, what could be this? It could be this. And he goes, like, working with you. My greatest one is working with you. Oh, disgusting. I'm killing. Yeah.

Me, who's happily married, by the way. I'm going to kill myself. a loving happy marriage my Twitter is all just that my Twitter is just like reposting like edits and like we're like oh maybe but I'm more active on Instagram so I will like post my like writing stuff

or like writing news or just like my life in general on Instagram a lot which I'm sometimes I'm too addicted to Instagram but I'm Thai so I feel like yeah Thai people that's a cultural thing Yeah. That's not fair. That's your culture. I have an excuse.

But yeah, mostly Instagram. I'm on substack. I have a stop stack. But yeah. Yeah, you guys can follow me. Yeah. Thank you so much for joining us. It's been wonderful. We hope to have you on again today. Yes. Yeah. For Summari-Therty and I'll work. Yeah. Oh, wow. The finale.

I am fascinating. Yeah. Pim is going to come on for my new podcast about the Summer I turned pretty. Oh, God. Oh, my God. Are you actually starting one? Anyway, so thank you so much for coming. We'll leave some links below where you can find Pim and thanks for your patience in the last couple of weeks

as we worked out getting PIM on because time zones are hard. We will be back next week with Denarius 4 in a storm of swords. We're getting towards the end of storm. So buckle up. We will be full blast into dance after that. And then, oh my God. And then it's Tyrion. And yeah, because we don't have this.

year a night of the seven kingdoms. Yeah, so no break. We're just full steam ahead into depression land. Get going, motherfuckers. Get ready to be a depressed man. Yeah, we're entering our alcoholic depression self-loathing era, and we couldn't be happier. That said, Eliana, where can they find us online? To self-loat with us. My face is like, what the fuck? I was like, I left that behind. No, it's coming back for us. Get ready. No.

I mean, maybe. 2026, it's so real. No, I really want 2026 to like be better than 2025. No, I think Tyrion's going to be fun to analyze. We're going out with a bang.

Yeah. Adopt them. Unless George could really surprise any of course. It's like very funny that you could do. Yeah, like follow us on social media which is, you might

is at Girls Gone Cannon. That's C-A-N-O-N over on Twitter or Blue Sky. You can also send us emails at Girls Gone Canon at gmail.com. We would love to get it. And hey, subscribe to us if you have not already. That way you always get updates on episodes as they come out. My favorite platform is probably Patreon. We're always active over there. You can get everything there, even an RSS feed that you can load into your player for free. Also, our patrons are going to tell you where else you can find us to follow us. You can catch Girls Gone Canon on any of the following streamers. On Podbean, iTunes, Google Play, Stitcher, Acast, Spotify, Overcast, Apple Podcast, IHeartRadio,

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It's a lot of fun, and you won't regret it. you so much for joining us in Pym today. It's been wonderful. We'll be back next week. I've been one of your host, Chloe. And I've been another one of your host, Eliana. I remembered Oh my God. And thank you, Pim, for being another, another, another one of our hosts today. We can't wait to have you back. Thank you, guys. Yeah, for my Love Island podcast. I've thought about it a non-zero amount of times of doing I would go on. We have a couple of people. Oh, but I say summer I turned pretty and I'm crazy. now it's a race to see who starts what first thanks Pidge

I know I'm not actually I was like it's more of an idea I have for like if I have to like do filler episodes or something we have a dog in people we can do you know like come on we can do you know a deep dive cultural dissection of Love Island I mean there's so many things to say culturally about I guess also the UK versus the US ones and like who gets to win I think you have more research to do before you can launch this, but I think you're really going to do something great, Eliana. Yeah, the UK. I mean, I have to watch off season three and four and five. The season of the UK one is quite interesting because there's not a lot of love.

It's very like, I don't know, it just shows a loss about modern dating culture that it's depressing. A lot of, I think, the ones have been, this is a whole other episode now. Goodbye.