Girls Gone Canon Cast - ASOIAF Episode 39 - Theon ACOK VI/Outro (Ft. Crowfood’s Daughter/The Disputed Lands)

Episode Date: February 15, 2019

Theon's dream of being the Prince of Winterfell becomes a nightmare as a demon in red and pink arrives at the gates.   Amanda's Youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCQTkPAgya-tMFF268FmkOhA Amanda's twitter: https://twitter.com/crowfoodsdaughter Eliana's twitter: https://twitter.com/arhythmetric Eliana's reddit account: https://www.reddit.com/user/glass_table_girl Eliana's blog: https://themanyfacedblog.wordpress.com/ Chloe's twitter: https://twitter.com/liesandarbor Chloe's blog: www.liesandarborgold.com

Hello and welcome to Girls Gone Canon, episode 39, Theon and a Clash of Kings, chapter 6 and outro. I am one of your hosts, Chloe. You can find me on the internet as LiesInArbor on Twitter, Tumblr, and www.LiesInArborGold.com. And I am Eliana, another one of your hosts. And you might know me as Arithmetric on Twitter, or perhaps Glass Table Girl on the Maester Monthly podcast, as well as the Song of Ice and Fire subreddit, which speaking of, we have a guest today. Yes, this is so

exciting. I'm so excited that we have this guest on. You might know her from Reddit. She is a new moderator. You may know her from online as Crow Foods Daughter. And of course, you might know her from her amazing YouTube channel where she's doing an Ironborn Myth and Legends series, which fits in perfectly with Beyond the Disputed Lands. So everyone, welcome Crow Foods Daughter. Hey, thank you. My name is Amanda. I go by Crow Foods Daughter, and I do have a YouTube channel. It's called The Disputed Lands, where I look at a lot of things, especially ironborn history and legends and i do an analysis to try and understand what actually happened during the long night and how that can inform us about azor ahai and the great king yeah we called in a professional is what i'm saying she's an ironborn anthropologist yes and you just put out uh your newest ironborn myth and legend series like a week ago about Greyscale, Blessing with Stone.

I did. I did. That was my baby right there, actually. It took me a while. I was hoping to get it out like a week prior, but I decided to just completely reorganize the entire thing. But I'm glad how it turned out. I'm really glad. So, yeah, if you get a chance, check that out.

Yeah, we'll definitely drop some links below in our description. We'll tweet it out on Twitter. So make sure you subscribe, like, just to check it out. Really good content. I'm just really happy that you joined us. Thanks again. Thank you for having me. This is pretty exciting, actually.

So thank you. It, of course, first recorded with Amanda a few weeks ago with LML. So it was like months now. Technically, it's still weeks. You know, it's not just not a few weeks ago with lml so it was like months now technically it's still weeks you know it's not just not a few it's many weeks okay yeah uh between two weirwoods episode on parenting we got to chat a lot about balan grayjoy then we chatted about him uh tywin we chatted about ned so i'm excited to get back into it because we have a lot of parenting to discuss today. There's a lot to say about Balon. Lots. Lots. Hey, we did get some

really cool reactions last episode. We've gotten a lot of fun tweets. I'm really glad that Theon is going well. Maybe it's just the Sansa shock because we just had a lot of Sansa happening, but I'm really happy that it's going well. It's going well. It's going better than I thought it would even. For these episodes, it's going really poorly for Theon, but it's going well.

Yeah. I'm thriving during these episodes. Theon is not. We did get some great tweets from Ben, Ben Sale, our friend who wrote a piece about Grand Maester Pycelle, actually. And Ben Sale says that the only defense Theon has is that he's not wrong about Balon's likely reaction. Saying he killed Bran and Rickon is probably the only thing that'd have made Balon think twice about writing him off as a Stark, while Asha's advice would've just killed them for real.

Balon would've found any reason to keep his make-Asha-air plan except for that. Raid Winterfell, you had your job and you didn't hold it? Stick to your job? How did you help our victory slash do anything to stop our defeat the only way to be true ironborn was to be a monster i like that a lot i think that's a great take and it's something we're obviously going to talk about today as we see all these loyalties and confliction within dion and you know yada yada yada, the usual in this plot for him. But it's true. I mean, that's the only thing that would have Balon think, ah, okay, maybe he's not a wolf. Yeah, and I think this idea that Theon realizing what Balon's reaction would have been, the way

that Theon was doing it there is something that he does later in this chapter, where he's just like, yes, this was right, this feels right. But he has to like, I guess, think aloud to do it. Amanda, what do you think? Yeah, it would definitely prove to his father that his loyalties do lie to him. But we've seen throughout the Ironborn chapters that they do value hostages and killing his brothers. Yes, it would definitely killing Brandon Recon would definitely show his father that his loyalties do lie to him however Brandon Recon are so valuable even though they fled if he was actually given the opportunity to um either keep them as hostages or kill them the more foolish thing to do would be to kill them because they are incredibly valuable.

And we've seen through Victorian chapters and we've seen through Asha's chapters, killing the most valuable bargaining chip that you have is not a good option. So when Ciri is fighting Victorian and Ciri is thrown overboard, he asked if they fished him out because, hey, he's valuable. We need him. So he really does need Bran and Rickon. And yeah, I just don't think that Balon would have thought that it was a good idea to do that.

He might have, you know, gotten some resolve as far as where his son's loyalties lie. But in the end, his father would have thought that that was very stupid. It's almost like Jamie, like the whole having Jamie and letting Jamie go plot with Catelyn and Rob. I mean, the rule of all warfare is pretty much like unless you have a really good loaded hand, and you know, you're safeguarded, you don't just take someone who has power more power than you out like that, if you can have them in a valuable position. the salt wives are in an extension and we also you pointed out victorian and asha doing it um book spoilers here for those who haven't read the forsaken but you know we see euron does that as well with aaron um to corral and rally the religious the religious folks in on the iron

islands and that's definitely something that theon would have been able to control a little better when it came to the Starks if he had the two Stark boys. Actually, in the world book, it mentions that the Ironborn would take thralls. They would take salt wives. Some of the most valuable thralls were the ones that were able to read and write do-sums. However, they mentioned that the most valuable people were the lords and ladies and the people that you could actually ransom. Those are

your bargaining chips. Those are the most valuable because you can actually return them and get something back in exchange or you can use them for negotiations. So by having the choice between killing Bran and Frickon or keeping them as hostages, really the most dumb

thing you can do is get is just kill your hostages and execute them he's really putting himself at a disadvantage of course he in truth he didn't actually have that option but you know right the whole time I've been thinking like but also he didn't actually kill them so all of this is moot yeah he could have kept them as a hostage i mean i think part of what ben is saying here if we look at like what ben is saying and also like amanda's points about ironborn culture is there is no winning for theon it is a catch-22 it's either he doesn't kill the starks and he takes them as hostages which is ironborn culture but then it comes with the bind of being seen as soft

towards the starks or he kills them and well we see how that plays out we get to follow that course of events here yeah toxic iron man masculinity plays into that too and northern iron man toxic masculinity but i mean we're gonna get into a lot of this very soon. So let's jump into our lightning round and get through this so we can talk a bunch more about hostages and what happens with Eon in this chapter. In Sansa 5, Sansa Stark finds herself holed up in Maegor's Holdfast with the Queen Mother as the Battle of the Blackwater rages on. Davos 3. Davos captains Black Betha into the fiery hells of the Blackwater.

Tyrion 13. Tyrion rallies the troops and leads a sortie to stop Stannis' attack. In Sansa 6, Cersei schools Sansa in how much she hates being a woman. Sansa learns why ill and pain is in the Holdfast. Tyrion 14. Podrick saves Tyrion's life from betrayal in the field Sansa 7 Sansa sings a song for mercy for Sander Clegane Daenerys 5 Dany's victory over the Undying is bittersweet She survives an attempt on her life thanks to Arstan Whitebeard

Arya 10 Arya is sick of her new job and boss and flees Harrenhal with Gendry after slicing open a guard's throat. After all, Valar Morghulis. Sansa 8. Sansa is set aside and receives a magical heirloom from Dauntless Hallard. Theon 6. Theon struggles to hold Winterfell. While the siege rages on, Theon decides to parlay with Roderick Hesel, his hostage, Beth's father. He considers giving up the castle and taking the Black, per Luwin's suggestion, but is interrupted by news of infighting among the Northerners, and of course, his timely demise. and so begins Theon VI our last Clash of Kings chapter where Maester Luwin came to him when the first scouts were seen outside the walls

my lord prince he said you must yield and Theon asks Luwin then has my uncle said a response to him yet and he's talking about Victarion but you know Victarion hasn't because I don't know he's actually following orders

doing whatever he's doing stuff sailing across grass or whatever yeah and Balon of course has not sent help either nor a response Theon demands Luin sends more birds for help and Luin's like no like I've sent a bajillion birds stop and Theon goes full rage I'm the lord mode right right? He throws food off the table, he accuses Luin of wanting him dead, and Luin responds that his order serves the realm and Winterfell. I really love Luin's speech here, though, about

serving the realm and Winterfell, and he's like, I don't hate you, Theon. I don't love you, but this is my job. Yeah, like, I have to protect the north. I will give you honest counsel, and my counsel is yield Theon Greyjoy. Yeah, dang it have to protect the North. I will give you honest counsel. And my counsel is yield Theon Greyjoy. Yeah, dang it. Like if Baelin was going to send help, he would have sent it by now.

Maester Luwin, he actually has been giving him fairly good advice this entire time. And Theon is just so distrusting of everyone. And I mean, rightly so, I guess. everyone and i mean rightly so i guess it but he time after time and we see this throughout the theon chapters in a clash of kings he continuously is receiving advice and he never takes the advice from the people that he needs to he's taking advice from reek um who we're going to learn is a really bad idea. His sister gives him advice. Maester Luwin gives him advice. And he puts everybody's opinions and thoughts to the side.

And yeah, he really needs to find out who's actually on his side, or at least who's going to give him some solid advice. And Theon grew up with Maester Luwin. He should know when Maester Luwin is trying to provide him with solid counsel. And this is an excellent example of Maester Luwin giving him some solid counsel. He has got the North outside of his gates as they're speaking, and he's telling them, you have to yield. And Theon doesn't want to hear anything about it. He's asking about his father. He's asking about Victarion. And nobody's come for him. Even Asha, when she came to help him, she just left him 10 men, which is almost

like a token rather than actually helping him out. Dad's not coming. Yeah. And of course, it reminds me in a way of, we all have agreed, Balin gave him orders. This is what I want you to do. This is what I want Asha to do. And this is what I want Victarion to do, right? So taking Winterfell isn't like not a big deal. Theon chose this and Winterfell is like the North's big place, right? So this obviously would affect your dad's plans, Theon. this and Winterfell is like the north's big place right so this obviously would affect your dad's plans Theon it reminds me almost of the Edmure and Robb thing right when Robb's like I told you to do something and you didn't do it but Edmure didn't do anything wrong because he protected his people so it's kind of a different situation and Edmure's never done

anything wrong in his life so there's that as well. And Rob gave bad orders. They were poorly worded orders. Yeah, Rob gave bad orders. We'll get to that eventually one day. Don't worry, everyone. Yeah, and Edmure did nothing wrong ever. So yeah. Well, with Theon, he was actually given the opportunity to, and he just thought that this was just a shit job as far as harrying this Stoney Shore,

but he was actually supposed to be creating a diversion and instead he went against his father's plans and he started taking torrent square and then winterfell when really he was supposed to be putting all of the he was supposed to be putting all the attention on the storm on the stony shore deepwood Mott was meant to be like a forward operating base. It's basically where everything as far forward as your lines are for planning for troops, for supplies, Deepwood Mott was supposed to be like their forward operating base. And you see time and time again, they talk about, we need to stay close to the ocean. We need to stay close to the rivers. Iron Men, our power, our strength is at sea. We

need to stay here. And he goes to the heart of the North. He goes to Winterfell. And Asha, she came and she told him, you need to leave. We have no power here. This was a bad move. And of course, he's not taking any advice. So he's really at a complete loss. Nobody's going to come for him. He did screw up the plans. If you look at who is it, Korid Hor, he actually controlled the entire Western shore of the Seven Kingdoms many, many many years ago back in ancient times and that that seems like what balon was was initially trying to attempt was to gain control of the western shores rather than sack sack winterfell go all in yeah yeah two things so one it's like you know balon gave him a job he like let him into his like

company and the end was like i deserve better than this internship and decided to go do something else as you were saying and it was like this was not helpful why didn't you just like sort the fucking papers like we told you to and it's also like what you were saying about the on not taking advice reminds me again of quentin martell like his friends are like quentin what if we just went home quentin this seems like a bad idea yeah so yeah continuously just taking the wrong advice and the one person he does take advice from is reek and we're gonna find out that was a really bad idea yeah and we also see why that happened.

I mean, Reek, you know, pretends to sympathize and empathize with Theon and plays right into his weaknesses. And of course, he buys it up, you know, hook, line and sinker. Theon says that the North isn't going to have any mercy on him, even though Lewin says, you know, ask for mercy, beg for mercy. So he commands Lewin to send the Ravensvens anyways and he rounds up all of the iron men for a council and he also said there is a way and theon doesn't let him finish he's trying to give him a really good counsel and we're going to figure out later on what this way actually is and instead of trying to listen to this advice trying trying to hear what this way is, he just responds, I am ironborn. He says, I'm not going to yield.

I'm not going to do anything. Unfortunately, like if he would actually think about history, his dad yielded to King Robert during the Greyjoy Rebellion. I mean, his own dad, the guy that he's trying to impress, he yielded. And the last ironborn that refused to yield during a siege was heron the black and that went really great for him yeah exactly and asha with deepwood mott she she abandons that she you know she hightails it out of there um and so he he's got these preconceived notions of what an ironborn person is. And he most of what he understands about the ironborn is a very juvenile understanding because he left there when he was nine.

And so a lot of what he understands that is seen through the lens of a nine year old of when he was last there. And then everything else is supplemented from his his 10 years in the north he's actually been in the north longer than he he was in the on the iron islands and so a lot of that is supplemented by what he learns from the maesters what you know what he hears from other people from the north and so he has these preconceived notions and so you see him consistently saying i am ironborn i'm gonna do this but this is an example a great example where if you would actually just kind of understand your situation being ironborn has nothing to do with it he just looks at his dad is a great example so yeah the ironborn know when to fold that's the biggest thing is asha balin they know what cards they have and when to play them and when to fold

and theon's just out there on a death mission he's like whatever i'm gonna win yeah and that's why asha gives him the advice she does the 10 men that she gives him aren't to help hold it they're to get him to the shore get him the fuck out of there. Yeah, absolutely. Escape rope. Theon thinks Luin's counsel is piteous and he looks around the large yard. He gives a speech. He means to hold Winterfell or die.

But of course, it's not exactly compelling. Everyone's looking around pretty dumbfounded, right? They don't really find it inspirational. Theon felt as though he were drowning. Why am I surprised? He thought bleakly. His father had forsaken him. His uncles, his sister, even that wretched creature

weak. Why should his men prove any more loyal? There was nothing to say, nothing to do. He could only stand there beneath the great gray walls in the hard white sky, sword in hand, waiting, waiting. Wex was the first to cross the line. Three quick steps and he stood at the end's side, slouching.

Shamed by the boy, Black Lord followed all scowls. Who else, he demanded. Red Rolf came forward. Krom, Warlog, Tymor, and his brothers. Ulf the Ill, Herig Sheepstealer, four Harlaws and two Botleys. Kenan the Whale was the last. 17 in all. I love that Wex was the first to cross the line

and that he shames Lauren into it. I am so fond of Wex. I love that he's just the cutest little squire. He is. He is. We all need a squire in our lives. We do. I want one. I don't know how you get one, but i would really like to have a squire

asha's men for obvious reasons don't seem to follow theon which theon assumed would happen urson and stig also are like no we did this long enough we're not about this anymore theon's like all right then go run back to as. And then turns to the 17 that stayed for him, and he apparently means to hold Winterfell with 17 good men, and I'm just confused. What is this number? Maybe Theon could have done it if he had 20, but he only has 17.

Yeah, it's a pretty off number. I'm feeling like this is a break in your theory that the show actually took this from the books, Eliana. They did. It's over. Your theory's over. But then he didn't hold it, right? If he had had 20, maybe he could have done it. He would have books, Eliana. They did. It's over. Your theory's over. He didn't hold it right. If he had had 20, maybe he could have done it. He would have held it. Yeah.

Three more. He's bad still. Okay, Lauren tells him what he knows. The castle folk are tough, gonna turn on you as soon as the northerners arrive for Winterfell. This is some little Ramsey shadowing though, right? This is some good stuff. The castle folk will turn on him as soon as the northerners arrive for Winterfell. This is some little Ramsay shadowing, though, right? This is some good stuff. The castle folk will turn on him as soon as

the northerners arrive for Winterfell. Well, no, it turns out that the northerners are who turned on him when they arrived for Winterfell. It was Reek, kind of a little Ramsay shadowing almost. I mean, everyone's gonna turn on Theon, apparently. Yeah, I mean, it is Theon. Theon turned on Theon. He doesn't know it,

but it's pretty obvious. He makes Black Loren bring out Beth Castle, blood for blood, while they wait for Roderick to arrive. And Loren gives him a hostile look, so Theon thinks, He's turned against me too, Theon realized. Of late, it seemed to him as if the very stones of Winterfell had turned against him. If I die, I die friendless and abandoned. What choice did that leave him but to live? Yeah, he put Lauren in a weird position. Lauren was under the assumption that he was going to go out in a blaze of glory. And he didn't realize that what that meant was getting a little girl and putting a noose on her and waving her in front

of the other host. And so he was kind of upset upset with that and he did suggest to put everybody in winterfell to the to the sword and then just open up the gates which is obviously probably not the best idea um but but um here's just again you know at least that's an option but he's he's giving him some advice and of course theon says no no, we're going to do this my way. And I don't know. What do you all think? Do you think that Theon had a better plan than Lauren? Just going out in a blaze of glory?

No, I mean, Lauren's kind of like the bucket wool character in Theon's plot, right? He's his ironborn bucket wool. And he did totally get kind of like screwed into doing this. This was totally a catfish. He's like, what? This is my job now? It's interesting to the focus that, you know, we just left a Game of Thrones with Ned and the Black Cells

and all that, you know, the last book, and he's, you know, dying for the children, and he's taking his secrets to the grave in order to protect children. And Theon, you know, in a Game of Thrones also saved Bran in the woods. And in Clash, he burns the Miller's son to almost in a way protect Bran and Rickon as well. They're not exactly equal sacrifices, you know, because he still killed some children to save some children. But he's very torn between his squid side and his wolf side here, which isn't letting him make a battle decision,

right? It's not letting him choose the right choice. It's not letting him listen to any council from any side. He doesn't know who to trust. He has no one that he can trust. He's just trying to choose the option that's leading the least. What he needs are more animal sides, alright? Yes. He needs a little, he needs a birb side

so he can just get the fuck out of the side it's a panda side so that he could have just chilled instead of like letting all this shit happen yeah get your shit together theon theon rides to the gatehouse with his crown on when the drawbridge was lowered a chill wind sighed across the moat the touch of it made him shiver it is the cold nothing more theon told himself a shiver not a tremble even brave men shiver this reminds me of the cattle in chapter when it's raining before they get to you know the wedding oh that's interesting i was thinking yeah it a it's obviously like spooky but it makes me think of uh he had said something in the previous chapter and he was like, only the wind replied.

And it makes me feel like there's this thing going on in Theon's chapters where it feels like it might be Bran speaking to him, but it's probably not Bran yet or something. You know, like. Yeah, missing some gray mist. Yeah, something like that. Sir Roger Cassell and Clay Kerwin wait with the Stark banner outside of the market. I love Clay Kerwin. Okay, Amanda, who do you want to be? You get to play a role.

We're doing a dramatic reading now. Oh, okay. This is our thing. I'll be, I'll be Theon. Oh, okay. I'll be Roderick then. I'm ready to shame you. You'll be the narrator.

Sir Roderick. Theon reigned to a halt. It grieves me that we must meet as foes. My own grief is that I must wait a while to hang you. Go be the narrator. Sir Roderick. Theon reigned to a halt. It grieves me that we must meet as foes. My own grief is that I must wait a while to hang you. The old knight spat onto the muddy ground. Theon turned cloak. I am a Greyjoy of Pyke. Theon reminded him.

The cloak my father swaddled me in bore a kraken, not a direwolf. For ten years you've been a ward of Stark. Hostage and prisoner, I call it. Then perhaps Lord Eddard should have kept you chained to a dire wolf. For ten years you've been a ward of Stark. Hostage and prisoner, I call it. Then perhaps Lord Eddard should have kept you chained to a dungeon wall. Instead, he raised you among his own sons, the sweet boys you have butchered. And to my undying shame, I trained you in the arts of war. Would that I had thrust a sword through your belly instead of placing one in your hand. Bruh.

Damn. He came for him. Sir Roderick straight up came for his ass. Yeah, you tell him, Uncle Roderick. You tell him. Also, there's an interesting idea. This is his Uncle Roderick in the North. Oh. Instead of his Uncle Roderick the Reader.

Like, I mean, similar characters, you know, just as far as mentoring and etc. Yeah. Though the other Roderrik is more likely to read the Art of War than to train anyone in it. Yes, absolutely. Theon tells everyone to swear fealty to his

father, King Balon, and he, the Prince of Winterfell. This is going to go over really well. And anyone who does is going to be safe, according to Theon. Yeah, I don't believe you. Yeah, Curran's like, what? You fucking want me? And Roderick calls him

babe. Roderick sure ain't wrong because this is obviously very self-serving taking Winterfell because everyone told him not to, but here he is doing the thing that everybody said, don't do it. Roderick is not at all moved by this.

He says he has 2,000 men, a multiple of 20, much more than Theon, but he doesn't have what Theon has, which is his daughter. Roderick calls him craven and despicable to use a child, something Theon says is a dish

he's tasted himself. And Roderick says it's not the same, which of course it really isn't dion's face was impassive the noose i wore was not made of hemp and rope that's true enough but i felt it all the same and it chafed sir roderick it chafed me raw he had never quite realized that until now but as the words came spilling out he saw the truth oh yeah he's continuously trying to justify his actions we see that um all throughout a clash of kings when he is sacking winterfell when he is when he had to uh drown somebody to the drowned god he he considers himself a just a just ruler. Like when he whipped the rapor,

he's trying to rationalize what he's doing and still maintain some sort of sense of self. And he's, he really puts himself into really bad positions. And so when I say, when he says that he never quite realized that until now, the words just came spilling out and he saw the truth of them. I feel as though he's just trying to rationalize what he's doing. And he's like, oh yeah, that sounds good.

That's how it is. Yeah, he does that too in the last episode when he tells Asha, you know, oh, I'm avenging our brothers. And he's like, oh, dad will like that. Yeah. Yeah, it's all just him trying to rationalize everything in his mind and organize it to where he's still a good guy and it's he really puts himself into some really awkward positions in doing that and it's it's just sad what a sad boy

theon roderick offers himself instead of beth as a hostage but Theon does not bend Roderick says he has sworn to Lady Catelyn and to House Stark he has to attack. Gods be good Theon how can you do this? You know I must attack have sworn Roderick even like shaved his whole face for like the Starks you know

yes and you see how seriously oaths and vows are taken in this chapter because he's he's got this uh inner struggle between this vow that he he swore and his daughter and you know he he just keeps on saying you know i swore anore an oath. I have to do this. I am bound to do this. Even though his daughter has a noose around her neck and she's his last surviving heir, his last surviving blood. It's, um, it's really interesting because you see them talk about oath breakers and, and everything being, um, you know, it being frowned upon, it'd be being looked down upon.

being, you know, it being frowned upon, it being looked down upon. But when you actually have somebody who is in a position where they are trying to make a choice, you actually see how important vows are to some of the people that make them. And I think that's just an excellent use of George showing the reader what it means to to to place a vow or to place an oath yeah and it's great because like we've had so much time with the Cassell family and we see as you were saying how important these oaths are to them we see how fiercely they served and protected House Stark to the best that they could. And Roderick's like, how could you put me in this fucking position? And we don't get his interiority, but I just love how, as you're saying, this sort of dilemma is something that comes up across all of A Song of Ice and Fire.

It comes up with Aemon and Jey are talking about, are you sure you want to do this? I mean, Benjen Stark says this too. Are you sure you want to do this? Because it's like, Benjen Stark says this too, like, are you sure you want to do this? Because it's love versus duty. It's Ned Stark has to make this decision. And obviously, it's in Jaime's storyline when he's like, they make you swear and swear all these vows. There isn't a clear cut right answer of blood versus duty. sadder i mean the castells have been dying for the starks since the beginning of the story you know jory dies for ned and now you know roderick dies for ned and beth cat or for well for theon but you know what i mean for the starks and you know in their name in their vein and beth is a hostage hopefully still alive in the dungeons of the dreadfort hopefully nothing awful is being done to her by ramsey because that whole family has just suffered just suffered during this yeah theon tells roderick to call off the siege or by sunset beth will hang he says he has plenty of hostages

to hang at first light he'll kill another another hostage will follow her to the grave at first light and another at sunset every dawn and every dusk will mean a death until you're gone i have flat i have no lack of hostages there's definitely a lot of projecting in his taking hostages for sure he's moving the power into his court and it's interesting because there's a huge contrast after this chapter in a dance with dragons when all the power is gone from him especially with his past after being a hostage of eddard you look at quentin who was given to house ironwood for obron's blood debt and you know just a lot of westerosi blood debt myrcella being used as coin to the dornish to keep them

loyal it has obviously worked really well for them so far and even to an extent the the Frey boys are, you know, Walder Frey's extortion, what he made the Starks agree to in order to let them pass his stupid bridge, which we're going to unpack a lot of that in Dance of Dragons as well. I think that's a really interesting point about Theon, you know, perpetuating this cycle, which has so clearly affected him and just doing it to other people. It's very psychologically jarring and he's just continuing that. Well, the animal isn't necessarily abused. Hurt people hurt people. Yeah, exactly. He did not wait for a reply, but wheeled Smiler around and rode back toward the castle. He went slowly at first, but the thought of those archers at his back soon drove him to a canter.

Understandable. thought of those archers at his back soon drove him to a canter understandable the small heads watched him come from their spikes their tarred and flayed faces looming larger with every yard between them stood little beth cassell noosed and crying oh theon put his heel into smiler and broke into a hard gallop smiler's hooves clattered on the drawbridge like drum beats something i really respect about george is these smaller characters like Beth, who spoke once in a Game of Thrones, you know, and was hanging out with the girls. And, you know, these small girls that come back into play, Jane Poole, it's nice that George remembers these supporting characters that are just young females.

Kind of a very Jamie kind of thing, right? With the Riverlands, had this situation played out without Reek involved. This entire scene just screams Jamie Lannister in the Riverlands, but like, you know, maybe just as many daddy issues, I guess. And the creeping paranoia is just really excellent throughout this chapter here. In that scene, he's looking at the tarred and feathered heads of what's supposed to be

Brown and Rick on as he's going back in and then he's seeing little beth cassell crying uh and we come to realize that like the only people that um fion it has killed or is trying to kill are two two miller's boys two kids he's got another little girl with a noose around her neck and he killed a septon and so we can see that he he's really just preying on the weak which is really um bad luck yeah bad karma bad juju theon has black lauren then take beth somewhere safe and retreats to bed to ned's bed chambers get out of there chamber not where you belong get out of there. Bed chambers? Not where you belong. Get out of his chambers.

Not for you. We're not. Had it been Theon with a noose around his neck and Lord Baelin commanding the army without, the warhorns would already have sounded the attack. He had no doubt. He should thank the gods that Ser Rodrik was not ironborn. The men of the Greenlands were made of softer stuff, though he was not certain they would prove soft enough i mean is that fair to say like maybe if no if balon was like faced with what asha

being a hostage i think balon would have done it i don't think that it's like that the ironborn are made of softer stuff i think balon just doesn't love theon as much yeah yeah and he doesn't want to admit that right like he's not ready to admit that at all yeah and i i don't think i mean yes it makes balon a bad father but i also kind of understand that like balon was divorcing himself from like this kid that he hadn't seen for 10 years because what's he gonna do you know yeah exactly i mean he's not gonna be a shell of a he like alanis i mean balon does oh man what i'm gonna say something wild here balon does with the on disappearing what jaharis did when sarah ran away he does for sure he just detaches himself from from them we don't really see how balon was as a father prior to the Greyjoy Rebellion. But we have to understand that he lost two of his sons during the Greyjoy Rebellion.

He had to send his other son away to his enemies. His wife went insane. His wife went insane. It's quite possible that the father that he left on Pike was to, his plans can come to fruition. But when he sees Theon, he, he's seeing his enemies, he's seeing, you know, the influence of them and he's worried that this might actually prove to, to be, you know, his downfall, continuously testing him and Theon is just not getting the hint whatsoever. Sorry for Theon, but that's unfortunate.

Yeah, it's cowardly of Balon to do, but I guess rather than be disappointed at seeing his son and feel like his son's betrayed him, he just decides, I don't really have a son. Theon then begins to regret his choices, thinking it was one thing to go into battle surrounded by friends and another to perish alone and despised mercy he thought miserably i don't know if i got this is just me i there was another line also further up that was like theon saying if I die I die alone and abandoned and I'm getting some last hero vibes like Theon you know like the last year may have been despised probably not I don't know but all of his friends died you know he went into this whole thing with a bunch of friends and was alone at the end like

even his dog died you know yeah so going back to the the number 17 for the people that um had stayed with him um you know everybody in the fandom most most people know lml and he talks about something called last hero math and you'll find like countless times where uh george puts in a dozen companions and with the people that actually left beyond there were 12 because there were 10 of asha's men and then there were two of his men that went with him so that actually equals up to 12 so that could actually be why uh george wrote in 17 men some monomythical vibes yeah so maybe the those last year of vibes are are on money. He can't sleep. The wine does nothing to help him get

to sleep, so he goes to shoot arrows until the sun comes up and his hands are bloody. There you go. Oh, snap. Just keep going. I saved Bran's life with this bow, he reminded himself. Would that I could save my own. If I hang the girl, the Northmen will

attack at once, he thought as he loosed a shaft if i do not hang her they will know my threats are empty he knocked another arrow to his bow there is no way out none luin sadly watches him shoot he counsels him if only he had a thousand archers like himself to hold the castle smart ass theon is sick of his counsel and he pretty much half-assed threatens luin, but Luwin knows better. He's experienced, right? He is. I just love, I don't know, I love Maester Luwin for still being caring at this time. Like, he's here, he doesn't know about Theon. I know, and I also love Luwin's little thing where Theon says, I'm gonna put this shaft to your heart and Maester Luwin's like, you won't. thing where like Theon says I'm gonna put this shaft to your heart and Maester was like you won't I love this passage I really love this passage it's like one of my favorite passages

I was reading it and I was like then gives Theon the counsel of maybe you should go to the wall that's a good idea oh Theon do it why won't you do it a brother of the night's watch it meant no crown no sons no wife but it life, and life with honor. Ned Stark's own brother had chosen the Watch, and Jon Snow as well. I have black garb aplenty. Once I tear the krakens off, even my horse is black. I could rise high in the Watch, chief of rangers, likely even Lord Commander. Let Asha keep the Bloody Islands.

They're as dreary as she is. Likely even Lord Commander. Let Asha keep the bloody islands. They're as dreary as she is. If I serve at Eastwatch, I could command my own ship. And there's fine hunting beyond the wall. As for women, what wilding woman wouldn't want a prince in her bed? A slow smile crept across his face. A black cloak can't be turned. I'm as good as any man.

I'd be as good as any man. is that not all he wants so do you guys would think that he would have taken the advice he was about to right there yeah i think he wanted to yeah i think so too i wish he would have he was like literally on his way to do it and then they were like wait something's happening i like how in this moment we get theon admitting that he is really emo he's like i got lots of black clothes knew it my horse is black we knew it we knew it action queen truly and also like as we know from other characters like if theon had taken the black the northmen would have honored it we see it in the dance and those those people definitely did worse things than the entire nation went to war. Woof woof, indeed.

And like, the advice that Luan gives here asking if Theon has had enough of life, I love that line. Theon's like, I've had enough. And he's like, but enough life? Anyway. There's this dichotomy that I think is set up in Ned's storyline in A Game of Thrones when Cersei and he speak in the Godswood.

And Cersei's all like, when you play the Game of Thrones, you win or you die. There is no middle ground. Which, yes, it's an iconic line. It's super well written. It's great. Dramatic. Love it. But, like, people see that conclusion to that argument in The Death of Ned Stark.

But I don't think it's actually so clear cut. Like, I don't know, with many things in the series, and Theon is just one example of that, because like, there is a middle ground. There are several middle grounds, and some of them suck. And some of them are like, meh, like you have the undead limbo

of the Ice Whites and the Fire Whites, because apparently George has decided to call things like Beric Dondarrion and Lady Stoneheart Fire Whites, where, you know, you either might have your memories memories but you don't actually have control of yourself or maybe you do have like some agency and will but you don't have any memories or those slowly disappear or you're just like a revenge monster and those suck but like being the last of your house you know not being undead there's there's that in between like with dantos he's the last of the hollards and he feels a bunch of grief and even greed because this the way that he deals with

things is through his alcoholism and then you have all the different broken men as pointed out by uh septon marabald you have being hated by your family as with tyrian lannister and then you have like theon grayjoy whose middle ground that we come across in a dance with dragons makes you think that maybe death would have actually been better maybe that would have been a mercy and all these different grays instead of these blacks and whites of life and death you know maybe those are actually worse than the extreme of death if you're like losing your body parts and your identity yeah and all of that is tied in with that sinking realization for theon of that what his father and his father's people are capable of

fighting firsthand with them finally and learning balin could have tried to get theon back all these years right we can all agree like if balin really had wanted to get Theon back all these years, right? We can all agree, like, if Balin really had wanted to get Theon back, he could have, but he didn't. He let him just be there. He let him go. And Theon learns he's kind of truly alone for the first time ever. Balin's never coming. Asha told him, Luwin told him, everyone told him, turn back, Theon Greyjoy, you're chasing an empty journey. with quentin martell like go back yeah to go forward you must go back okay quick thanks ashara i'm sorry did you mean uh share a sea star wait thanks septum ordain wait no lamore god maybe it's septum ordain it's septum ordain it's because dane is in her name. You get it? That's, oh my god.

It's my new tinfoil. Okay. Well, all these thoughts are interrupted by Chrom, who is shouting for Theon. Is this Victor Crumb? I'm just gonna glaze past it. I'm not even gonna be the worst. Chrom's all like, come come look the north men are attacking but

they're not attacking winterfell oh no no no they are attacking each other theon first is like is it asha but no we know it's a charge being led by house bolton and theon thinks no or they say no these are north men i tell you with a bloody man on their banner. Eon goes to watch the battle. Black Loren appeared beside him and stood silently for a time. The sun was low in the west, painting the fields and houses all glowing red. A thin, wavering cry of pain drifted over the walls, and a war horn sounded off beyond the burning houses. and a war horn sounded off beyond the burning houses.

The unwatched, a wounded man dragged himself painfully across the ground, smearing his life's blood in the dirt as he struggled to reach the well that stood at the center of the market square. He died before he got there. He wore a leather jerkin and a conical half-helm, but no badge to tell which side he fought on. The crows came in the blue dust with the evening stars. I love that line about the Dothraki. I think that's a great line. I love the symbolism and just the beautiful language and prose in this kind of passage about the sky and the death. And I love that it was Luin's counsel and Theon repeats it right here after, you know, he just came so close to finally asking to be redeemed.

Because the interesting thing about Theon, when we compare him to some of these other characters who have done horrible things or whatever, Theon wants redemption, right? Like, I mean, all these characters in the end do want to be redeemed you have Sandor Clegane crying on his deathbed I mean you have Jaime who wants redemption you know passing out in the hot tub with Brienne you have all these people pushing for it or Tyrion even Theon really does dream about having a family and having a home and having redemption but he just doesn't make the correct strides to do so yeah he just doesn't want to be alone he's like tyrian right we see earlier that he he just wanted love same as same as all the rest of us do you want to be loved sansa yeah love is a poison. Drink up, bitch. Okay. Glug, glug. Clink, clink.

Finally, a column of mounted men rode out of the drifting smoke. At their head was a knight in dark armor. His rounded helm gleamed a sullen red and a pale pink cloak streamed from his shoulders. Outside the main gate, he reined up and one of his men shouted for the castle to open. So fashion hour. Fabulous fabulous outfit, really top tier. I don't have much analysis for it this time, but to tell you like, damn, Ramsay, nice digs. But for all intents and purposes in the book right now, they call him Red Helm. So he's now Red Helm.

This is Red Helm, everyone. He's so millennial with his millennial pink cloak. Oh my god. Is that the symbol? Is that what it symbolizes, Eliana? Truly. Is that not? Theon doesn't know if he should trust Redhelm, but he's brought Theon a lovely gift.

The dead bodies of Tallheart, Serwyn, and Castle. Aww. I liked all those people. I liked all of them. Boo. Boo. And all he thinks is

to think how close I came to yielding and taking the black. Oh. Yeah. It's not a bad thing. You still should have done it, and you're gonna find that out, dude. In this moment, it's still not too late I guess well actually no it is because all the people who would have

honored it are gone they're all dead right here so you know Theon decides to open the gates to the mounted red helm and discusses his methods of battle with the man and who's red helm it's Reek!

Ugh. Wow! Yay! There's no yay! He saved him! He did it! He saved him! From joining the Night's Watch, from yielding, and throwing his whole life away. He could have done something horrible.

I'm so glad this has a happy ending. I know, right? What if we just ended it right here? Such a happy ending. This is it. Dude, the next few weeks are gonna be really heavy. I just thought about that. Ugh. Man. Yep. Poor one out for Lady Hornwood.

Yeah, for sure, because Rudhelm Reek goes into a long villain monologue about how Reek's dead. The man laughed. The wretch is dead. He stepped closer. The girl's fault. If she had not run so far, his horse would not have lamed, and we might have been able to flee. I gave him mine when I saw the riders from the ridge. I was done with her by then, and he liked to take his turn while they were still warm. I had to pull him off her and shove my clothes in his hands. Calf-skinned boots and velvet doublet, silver-chased sword belt,

even my sable cloak. Ride for the dread fort, I told him. Bring all the help you can. Take my horse. He's swifter. And here, wear the ring my father gave me so they'll know you came from me. He'd learn better than to question me. By the time they put that arrow through his back, I'd smeared myself with the girl's filth and dressed in his rags. They might have hanged me anyway, but it was the only chance I saw. He rubbed the back of his hand across his mouth.

And now, my sweet prince, there was a woman promised me if I brought two hundred men. Well, I brought three times as many, and no green boys, nor field hands neither, but my father's own garrison anyone else think this isn't a good situation it's just like yeah uh theon should have seen the red flags right there yeah yeah this is like stares at the camera and whispers what the fuck what the fuck you just

um i mean the whole outfit thing the whole outfit oh even the outfit oh my god as soon as he wrote up he's a demon it's like remember the last time he did this outfit switch with you and that turned out real bad yeah there's like a lot of context clues going on

it's like really you're not getting it buddy yeah he's like let me go get paula i mean that sounds good to me hey thanks buddy i mean he he should have known right there that this was not a good situation shaking my head being like nope nope as you read this uh i also wanted to raise this hashtag very important question of like why Ramsey for some reason had to smear

the girl's dirt on him like why was that his like detail why couldn't he have just rolled around in dirt why did it have to be that girl's dirt because Reek smells oh that's what he was smearing on himself ew that's nasty yeah that's what Reek smells like on himself. Ew. That's nasty. Yeah, that's what Reek smells like.

Yeah, that's really gross. He's a crazy bitch. Now I realize they're talking about how Reek had that weird thing. So weird. Yeah, no, he just has this weird fecal fetish that, you know, after he kills people, he just likes to smear.

Really? Is that what it was? Because I know that people have speculated that he had an actual hormonal or something dysfunction that causes him to have really bad body odor or whatever. There's actual, I don't know, terminology. Yeah, I was just joking about that. Oh, I would have believed it. It's entirely possible. I mean, it's a fantasy series. He could have all kinds of stuff going on.

He could have this fecal fetish and like to smear that stuff all over him. But I've read those theories about him having that disorder. And that's probably the case because it says that no matter how much he washed, how much perfume he wore, he stole. how much perfume he wore he stole you know he would no matter what he would always smell horrible and he could never fix it no matter you know how clean he tried to get himself but uh later on we learned that Ramsey didn't always like him bathing too I don't know maybe he liked the smell oh god that's a mood I guess ew yeah i'm a nurse i can talk about that kind of stuff all day long i'm tender-hearted i'm i have a tender heart and stomach i'm very delicate ladies yes i am not the kind of person to have a conversation with at the dinner table

i am a very soft butterfly i'm delicate eliana knows this best masturbation's never been oh my god so like amanda said theon sends for paola he does what he's promised from the kennels to give to red helm like leave her alone there's also some really interesting references going on here like the way that this line is phrased when theon's thinking about it theon had given his word this was not the time to flinch pay him his pound of flesh and deal with him later harrog he said go to the kennels and bring paula out for first of all he doesn't even fucking know this guy's name christ um this line pound of flesh actually comes from Shakespeare's The Merchant of Venice, which actually I got to watch starring Jonathan Pryce, who you may know as the High Sparrow from that TV show that these books were adapted from. And he plays Shylock.

And in the play, you have a bunch of characters. I'm going to go through a lot of things fast because I'm not actually going to really tell you everything that happens in the merchant of venice because it's a whole ass play but bassanio needs money because he has to go get married and so he asks his friend antonio who is a merchant of venice for help uh when it comes to this money antonio is like yeah i'm gonna help you cover the cost of a bond but we're gonna go to this money lender Shylock whom I've just kind of insulted and shat on all the time and made really anti-semitic like jokes and treated him terribly because he's Jewish and so Shylock for obvious reasons is very reluctant to help Antonio but eventually agrees and relents on the condition that sure I will help all you out as long as

Antonio promises to pay me back on the given date and if he does not i get a pound of flesh no interest charge which is why antonio's like man this is a great deal um but shylock is really interested in getting revenge for the way that antonio has treated him like antonio is also just like kind of shafted like shylock over on some other like business matters as well now when this agreement is made this pound of flesh that they're talking about isn't like oh i don't know beef or some shit no this pound of flesh is fucking literal shylock is means business okay and antonio's ships they're like out at sea right now and then turns out they end up being lost and he's like shit i can't pay you back

and he ends up indebted to shylock who's like all right time to pay up where's my pound of flesh which again is literal flesh and like you know let's imagine someone just takes a pound of flesh from you maybe it's like your arm or like i don don't know, whatever you lose a lot. Or if it's taken from a specific part, how much do you dicks way? It's not a pound. I can tell you that. I want to say like, I forgot if in the play,

they actually define where he wants it from. And if it's like somewhere in the abdominal area, I forgot. Cause I think that they actually defined where it is and where it would come from would literally kill Antonio. And there's some really interesting word play here, course because while in the merchant of venice antonio doesn't end up having to pay his pound of flesh to shylock the end storyline actually ends up the other way around right like we talked about all that castration and stuff last time um here the flesh that theon pays doesn't end up being a woman or

like letting ramsey fulfill like carnal desires though all these things end up happening like theon literally ends up giving up some of his flesh and being flayed and losing body parts and it's wild an average porn star maybe 12 floor ounces 0.75 pounds and off the charts one pound you were googling yep i was googling that the whole time i thought you were googling where the pound of flesh came from who measures that i mean like well and there are conversions you have to go through like cubic inches and then you have to anyways so hold on hold on is this um through like cubic inches and then you have to anyways so hold on hold on is this um flaccid or hard this is the average erect penis okay this was an important distinction in my opinion yes no agreed because otherwise it's like three ounces yeah and like i guess testicles like 106

grams i don't know 106 grams isn't so yeah so that was a good google i'm glad i was in i think i was in a anonymous mode when i googled that thank god so now only my internet provider and you guys and the whole internet now i don't think theon's like he's probably he's gotta be like 12 is like no 12 is like probably a rack i'd say he's right six is probably the average so that's why he had to give up some fingers too yeah yeah to make that pound yeah how much fingers too. Yeah, to make a pound. Yeah, how much in total? I don't have quite a pound here, so you can just take a couple fingers and we'll call it even.

So yeah, it's a pound of flesh. Good call, Aliana. That's how weight works. I'm glad we figured that out. That was where I thought, I'm glad we went in this direction. Redhelm decides instead that he wants theon's bed warmer kyra and it's a better fit for a snow or a bolton which he reveals himself to be suddenly

that's right red helm is ramsey snow bolton what up yeah theon's super upset he's like no like fuck you you can't just take my girlfriend and then we get the most intense moment where ramsey backhands him and he passes out on the ground and now you're a captive for real yeah be careful what you wish for you didn't like your ward status before well here it is there you go i love that we get george's writing convention where you know we see it was storm with aria the flat of the axe but with theon we get little resolution in this chapter, but the true nightmare really unfolds after this chapter. So when Theon comes to, Ramsay and his men are slaughtering everyone. Close the gates, he tried to shout, but it was too late. The Dreadfort men had cut down Red Rolf and Kenned, and more were pouring through, a river of mail and sharp swords. There was a ringing in his ears and horror all around him.

Black Loren had his sword out, but there were already four of them pressing in on him. He saw Ulf go down with a crossbow bolt through the belly as he ran for the great hall. Maester Lewin was trying to reach him when a knight on a warhorse planted a spear between his shoulders and swung back to ride over him. Another man whipped a torch round and round his head and then lofted it toward the thatched roof of the stables. Save me the phrase, the bastard was shouting as the flames roared upward, and burn the rest.

Burn it. Burn it all. The last thing Theon Greyjoy saw was Smiler, kicking free of the burning stables with his mane ablaze, screaming, rearing. End scene. That's it. Wow, Smiler, what's up? Oh my god, screaming, rearing. End scene. That's it. Wow, Smiler, what's up?

Oh my god, okay, Pokemans. I know we just ended this chapter, but I do want to say that this line, I think, does some really great prose tying up together Theon's last chapter. So, you know, earlier we were discussing how none of the men stepped up to fight alongside Theon, and we ended up reading a lot of this line where Theon says theon felt as though he were drowning and finally in these like last moments in this these last few paragraphs we have like uh the dreadfoot men

had cut down with rolf and kenned and more were pouring pouring through a river of mail and sharp swords and i just think that it's some great prose i don't think that george was necessarily doing this intentionally but it comes together really nicely of that because of this river of mail and sharp swords theon is drowning like there's some great irony here that theon feels like he's drowning and that's the sensation that he has because theon in that dream that bran had theon supposed to be the sea that has has because Theon in that dream that Bran had, Theon's supposed to be the sea that has come to Winterfell. He's ironborn.

So for him to feel as though he's drowning is really, truly just him planting his own demise. There's a lot of really symbolic stuff with drowning and the ironborn. And it may be actually setting up theon for his later redemption so we see like his metaphoric drowning here and then later on we see um kind of like this redemptive arc going on further the ironborns saying what is dead may never die but rises again harder and stronger um if you look at their ironborn religion and how they actually give one to the drowned god and then resurrect them

um they're with drowning there's there's almost like this end of life but there's also a new beginning so this may just be setting up theon for his future arc of redemption yeah i love that i think that's great like he is reborn to an extent not great his new identity kind of sucks but yes it's a journey god i can't believe we just finished his class chapters we theon gets taken off the pages after this until a dance with dragons and we don't hear about him. But suspense is built up enough for us to continue thinking about him. Even throughout Feast, we get more Greyjoys. Obviously, we get some Asha and we see some stuff from that realm. I think it's really interesting, the whole idea of the hostage returning home.

Finally, it makes me wonder what's going to happen when you get back to Sansa coming home finally after her time in King's Landing and after her time in the Vale. Oh, yeah. Where she, I mean, she also has some of those, like, purifying kind of imagery and moments with the snow, whereas for Theon, it's with the water. The salt spray.

I love that in that first chapter. Get some beach waves. Yeah, man. Hit the surf. Surf's up. Surf's the hit. Surf's up. I don't know. Get some beach waves. Yeah, man. Hit the surf. Surf's up. Surf the hit. Surf's up. I don't know. I don't actually know what that means.

I'm sorry. Surfing Pikachu. I don't know why I said that. Never mind. Yeah, and of course that brings us to our outro discussion. Let's talk Beyond Returning Home, Greyjoy Re gray joy rebellion all that kind of stuff what is home home is whenever i'm with you get out is that like are you who are you even singing to what are you i don't know theon

home is whenever i'm with theon gray joy yeah what do you think would have happened if theon would have actually been able to do the right thing and follow his father's orders how do you think would have happened if theon would have actually been able to do the right thing and follow his father's orders how do you think the ironborn would have fared do you think that balon actually might have had a plan that might have actually worked they might have eventually been able to take over a lot of the north i mean the north and the west as we talk and learn about that's it's a weak spot in Westeros right now and had Theon actually stuck to the plan yeah Balon might have had a stronger hold on some of these places yeah I definitely agree I think that Balon I think that Balon's probably been

planning this for the past 10 years very Doran yeah yes I think he's been waiting for this moment. He's had it planned out in his head for years. And he's been basically waiting for the exact right moment and he found it. And what's really great is we talked about oaths and he actually did not break his oath. He waited until he gave his oath to Robert Baratheon that, you know, he swore fealty and that he would not rise up again. And he waited until Robert Baratheon was dead. Truly a loophole. Yeah, exactly. And that's what he told Robert Baratheon when he was yielding. And they were like, oh, well, you know, you swore an oath and he said, I did not swear not swear an oath to you and rob rathian said okay well swear one to me now and he did and he waited until he was dead to rise up again it was a

fortuitous time for bail on gray joy if only i don't know i guess his son i i do you think bail on's plans could have succeeded even if the even with the on screwing everything up had you know bail on lived in like his other brother not come and murdered him flash is really that destruction everyone's kind of you know crazy everything's up in flames right now it's him kind of you know benefiting from that chaos that is the latter type of chaos uh i think he could have benefited i don't think he could take the whole North. Obviously, we see that it takes a special kind of, you know, ambition and strength to take and keep the North and a special man to be able to do that. Obviously, Bruce was leading

it through fear and Ramsey as well. I don't know that Balan really could have succeeded, succeeded, but I think he could have held some stuff and maybe even took some plea bargains in the end to say, hey, I'll hold this and have part of the North. Yeah, I agree. I think he could have held some stuff and maybe even took some plea bargains in the end to say, hey, I'll hold this and have part of the North. Yeah, I agree. I think that the Western Shore would have definitely at least the Western Shore of the North would have definitely been theirs if they if they would have been able to stay the course and do as Balon had probably imagined. I don't think that they would have gotten all the way to conquering the entire North, but I think that they would have been a lot more successful because

I do think that Balon had this planned for a long time. He was striking at the exact right moment when the North was pretty much abandoned and he was able to get control of Mo'Kalen. He was able to do so much stuff.

He was going to set up a forward operating base with Deepwood Mott. He was getting his ducks in a row, and it would have been interesting to see what would have happened if Theon would have actually done what he was supposed to do. Yeah. There is no alternate timeline where that happens, but never mind. Because this is a work of fiction,

and George wouldn't have written that story because that would have been less dramatic and fun. If he would have done what his father asked, and he would have harried the stony shore and followed his orders and been a good boy and done everything that he was supposed to do do you think that he would have eventually gained his father's trust no way dude i don't

think so i don't think balan would ever have respected theon no matter what he did there'd always be this uh furry wolf block between them right like he was just right now he's another person to help balan bring glory in the old way back. If Balon had cared, he would have tried to get Theon back before this. He disengaged from his sons after they died and from Theon after he lost him. And it's crazy because even Tywin cares enough about Tyrion to be like, we're going to cover your bullshit up. Don't worry. You know, in the end until, well, the end for him. But it's interesting because Balon was just so disconnected. He just let Theon go so much and, you know, very, he's no son of mine. Yeah, I mean, we see what Balon acts like with a kid that he actually likes. Yeah.

I'm also coming at this, you know, I thought that the lens that Eve, aka Canonical Gay, on Twitter gave us was really interesting about Theon as a way of thinking of like the cultural diaspora and i'm just thinking and bringing my own personal experiences into this like no no matter what i do the fact of the matter is the way that i appear in western culture i'm never going to always like be fully seen as maybe American. And I am not necessarily in some ways because I grew up in an immigrant household. But in the Philippines, like it doesn't matter if I can speak the language, like there's still like a hint of some accent, and it doesn't matter how long I stay there or how much I like learn it. I still grew up in the US like it doesn't there is no that's always a part of you. Yeah, it doesn't... There is no...

That's always a part of you. Yeah, and it is a part of you. And it's less of trying to be seen as authentic to that culture as opposed to being authentic to yourself and who you are. And there was a moment where Balon respected Theon when Theon spoke up to him. And maybe Balon was never going to see theon as a true ironborn but maybe theon should have never been trying to do that i don't know maybe he never would have gotten it but i'm just thinking that like if the idea is proving yourself as truly either ironborn or truly northman theon was never

going to be able to do that along Along with all of those ideas of parenting, we also have a lot of talk in Theon's chapters about the old way. The old way does not work anymore. We hear it even in the show, in a way we hear that, you know, I'm going to break the wheel mentality. Because right now all of these houses and of course, the Ironborn are just spinning around in their old way. So Amanda, will you tell us more about the old way with ironborn? The old way is pretty much a fairly long forgotten notion of the ironborn culture. Breathing, taking what's yours, paying the iron price, taking salt wives. They're very godly as far as the Drowned God goes. They have something called the King's

Moot where they choose their kings. You have to earn the right to rule. It was the concept of what culture was a long time ago, and people refer to it as the old way. This is how we used to do things. way. This is how we used to do things. When House Hoare had actually gained control of the Iron Islands, that is actually, and that was during the time of the Andals, that's actually when the old way started declining. They actually had adopted the faith of the Seven. There were instances after they had intermarried with the Andals, they started doing away with the old way they started um bargaining they started haggling you'll see with the names they're actually given like these horrible names somebody the the raper somebody the godless uh you know they just give them these horrible names they call them black of heart black of eye so it's been actually declining for a very very long time it wasn't

until the very last three whores that they that the old way actually started coming back and they started doing some conquest of the riverlands and holding a large swath of both the riverlands and even the stormlands and that's where we end up with Heron the Black. When Aegon the Conqueror came in, he actually, of course, put down the horse and that was

the end of the Old Way again. And that was 300 years prior to the events of the timeline. And so the Old Way is actually pretty forgotten as far as ironborn culture. And so you see them talking about it, talking about bringing it back.

We're going to do this like the old way. So a lot of them, their understanding of it is more on a historical account because, of course, it had been outlawed if they did want to read they'd have to go all the way to the step zones or the basilisk isles they couldn't go and just go read wherever they wanted there were laws against taking salt wives they hadn't had a king's moot in thousands of years. So it's pretty much just a long forgotten memory, but they still continue to talk about it. So when Theon is actually talking about the old way, and this is, I'm ironborn, and this is kind of an inner mantra of Theon, I'm ironborn, ironborn

do this. A lot of it is very a juvenile concept of what the ironborn are and what the old way is. Because like I said earlier, he left the Iron Islands when he was nine. And so everything that he understood about that was from the lens of a nine year old. And then after that, everything that he knew about the ironborn was supplemented from his interactions with people from the North and the people from the North, they don't see the ironborn was supplemented from his interactions with people from the north. And the people from the north, they don't see the ironborn in the same way that somebody from the Iron Islands would. So they might say, oh, the ironborn are like this. They're like that.

And when Theon actually puts, we see him talking about these iron men, they're coming up dead. We see him talking about these Iron Men, they're coming up dead. And we soon learn that it was Theon that's actually killing them because he's afraid that they're going to say something about Bran and Rickon. And he mentions the Ironborn can't keep secrets. And we don't really see in the chapters where that's actually true. see in the chapters where that's actually true and so it's possible that when he's talking about well the ironborn can't keep secrets it's possible that that understanding is not actually from when he was in the iron islands it's actually an understanding of what he learned when he was up north his concept oh i'm gonna do this because i'm, I'm going to do this because I'm ironborn. I'm going to do that because I'm ironborn.

You have to kind of think about, is that really what ironborn would do? When you were talking about Theon yielding, we see Baelon Greyjoy, no problem. He yielded. We see Asha. She had no qualms about getting out of there when times were getting tough. You begin to understand that Theon may not actually know what's really going on. He's just saying, well, I'm going to do this because I'm ironborn but the concepts of what he understands and what it the reality actually is they don't always necessarily match no i think you definitely have a point there i think he has these preconceived notions which he's also built it up inside his head right and in a way it's a little fantastical it's him thinking of his people i mean i i think you see it in a lot of kids. I mean, you know, that's

you want to think of that place, that home, that time, those people, those warriors, but he's definitely built it up. And he's definitely trying to outmatch them, not even just match them. You know, he's trying to pull his ironborn machismo out. And it doesn't really need to happen that way. You should be smarter, you should salvage yourself before you just you know go out in the blaze of glory burn out he's burning out he's uh burning out and fading away like what you were saying about also i was thinking about what you were saying about them being unable to keep secrets because like we see a shit ton of ironborn keep secrets like victorian's over here keeping a fucking secret about like his wife Exactly. And Euron's got mad secrets. And I feel like,

correct me if I'm wrong, but something that I saw in what you were saying is that, you know, Theon is patterning this idea of an idealized or romanticized, his nine-year-old romanticized idea of what Ironborn culture is, but because the Ironborn themselves, it's been many

centuries and the culture has changed. because the ironborn themselves it's been many centuries and it's the culture has changed even the ironborn themselves right are like theon and that they're patterning this idea of the old way off of also these stories it's become this sort of like simulacra of what ironborn culture is and theon's just a microcosm just one way in which that's happening but it's happening throughout their entire culture in the iron islands reaving is not actually the main source of their economy it is said in the world book that seven out of ten ironborn are actually just fishermen is what they are um and so it's only a select few that actually do do any reaving whatsoever. And you see, for example, the Farwinds, when they bring their chests to the Kingsmoot, you can tell they don't reave whatsoever. Because the other people, they're providing gifts to the captains and the priests.

The gifts are kind of representative of their prowess in weaving. And when the Farwins bring their stuff, they, you know, it's like whale bone and seal skins and just a bunch of stuff that you would expect for a fisherman to provide. And so the old way is not necessarily what is representative of the Iron Islands. And even the people that, like, for example, the Harlaws, some of them have adopted the faith of the Seven. You see Roderick the Reader, he's very literate. The Iron Islands have incorporated maesters not so much septons but uh you know they the iron islands has definitely evolved from what theon you know has this storied notion of it's like ironborn culture is now trying to define itself not as its own thing but as in reaction to what the conquering

force has been. And they're like, well, we're not that. We're not that. And I think that Theon, even though he doesn't, he's not in line with the message of what the Ironborn are saying, they're not. But he is in Winterfell being like, well, I'm not that, so I'm doing this. That's great.

Exactly. Exactly. We talked a lot about Theon and the Night's Watch mace your luin's advice what do you guys think about that oh he should have taken it i feel so bad do not miss that was his one last shot i don't actually know the words of the song yeah put your chance to blow this opportunity goes once in a lifetime you better anyways yeah definitely should have taken that holy crap that was a uh a much

better advice than what he's heard from you know people like reek yeah exactly could you imagine him hanging out at east watch with cotter pipe deserve this story oh those would be great chapters i know i love that second chance is forgiveness and like he gets the same thing that john snow was hoping for when he got there

right but turns out the night's watch doesn't really give you that even though it it advertises that not just the second watch but like they're like you get to be you you don't you're not coming from whatever your family is you're just making a name for yourself. But then we see in the prologue of a game of Thrones, Waymar Royce, he is given command of, of that ranging, even though he hasn't been a ranger for more than a year.

And it's because of his, his highborn status. Yeah. The system's broken everywhere. Theon gets to, I mean, like, Theon would have been able to take advantage of that system for better or for worse. Yeah.

And I mean, he'd probably have done his duty. Yeah. For the most part. How well could Theon even, like, I don't know, handle a ship, right? He left the Pike when he was nine in Winterfell's Inland. These are questions I'm wondering. And he said, you know, like, I don't know, handle a ship, right? He left the Pike when he was nine in Winterfell's Inland. These are questions I'm wondering. And he said, you know, like, I mean, he doesn't, he's not a big sailor. He's not, he's an archer. No offense,

but that's, like, that's a good job for, you know, when you have a bunch of them. But that's all he's good with. He's not great with a sword. I think Lewin says as much, right? Like, that's a great, that's a great thing to be on the wall. Yeah, absolutely. It would be a great place literally very strategic yeah so do you guys think that this might be foreshadowing for theon's future i don't know about theon being someone who will take the black

though it would be interesting especially because like i said it's interesting because obviously in the books where we are the wall's still up eventually that baby's coming down you don't build walls unless they're going to come down so it's going to fall but there's obviously going to be a place in the end game for the night's watch one way or another whether they just resettle the gift with wildlings and keep that protection going and remake some pact or what there has to be some sort of semblance of reason for that big magical wall yeah even if the end game is like the night's watch dissolves but like there's a legacy of it or something for theon i don't know i guess i don't see him joining

the night's watch because all of the things that one has to give up the dramatic tension of the choices a character has to make in taking the choice of doing the night's watch are removed from theon in some ways like he's not giving up having kids or sleeping with anyone he's not giving up that kind of love and his family doesn't truly want him in some ways seems like i I mean, he couldn't take crowns because no one's gonna follow him in that way, but I don't know. Like, Theon Latecomer is definitely, I think, in the cards. Yeah.

I would love to see the Iron Islands reform with Theon and Ashe a hellmete of swords or such. I don't know. Like a rock king and a rock queen and a salt king oh interesting yeah i think all the kingdoms are for the most part i think it'll break into sections again you're gonna have the north riverlands the eerie you know you have the veil and everything all in that and then you'll have the south as one yeah i think there'll be like three to five sections of the continent i don't think it'll be like three to five sections of the continent.

I don't think it'll be. So I'm guessing the Iron Islands will probably go back to itself. Yeah, there's definitely precedence for dual rulership within the Iron Islands, especially with the old way. That's how they used to do things. They used to have a rock king and a salt king. So with Theon and Asha, they could actually do that and recreate you know one aspect of how the iron islands were at one point so i think that'd be great it's an old new way a new old way there you go no never mind i tried really hard yeah so i want to talk about how coming back

to the merchant of venice we were discussing that pound of flesh earlier but there's another thing that i think recurs throughout theon's clash arc uh that does play a big role thematically in the merchant of venice as well like so again antonio is unable to pay back shylock so they all go to court, and a lot of things happen, and again, we're not going through the entire plot line of The Merchant of Venice, but Bassanio has a wife now, and it's Portia, she's acting as a lawyer, and she pleads to Shylock for mercy, like, Bassanio can pay you back twice the amount that Antonio owed you, and she gives this entire speech to Shylock and, you know, the audience about mercy, and it's a big deal. It's an iconic speech in literature, and Shylock ends up refusing because, again,

he wants his revenge against Antonio, but then Portia ends up lawyering him into losing, and Shylock is about to lose, like, all of position possessions and like riches and shit when Antonio allegedly shows him mercy because he's a Christian and it's like super weird and it's an it's anti-semitic and again I'm not giving you the whole play but the whole point is mercy has been a big part of Theon's storyline so far like Luin is begs Theon earlier in chapters to show mercy to the runaway stark party and theon of course kills the miller's boys and passes them off as stark so it ends up with him realized being put in a position where he's the one who has to beg for mercy and we see it in his dream where he keeps yelling mercy mercy but in his quest for like vengeance maybe for the ironborn or his own

personal glory maybe even just getting some respect. Theon ends up refusing to show mercy to people and is in a position where he fears that it will not be shown to him because he didn't show it to others. And like, it ends up that mercy isn't shown to Theon. Like something maybe worse is. It's not justice when the tables finally turn. And like, we know that Theon's given the option of the watch as

we've discussed before but with that maybe close to him it seems as though mercy might come through a different route maybe through bran speaking to theon like bran's got a lot of people to fucking forgive all right and like his storyline like many others in a song of ice and fire are a question of forgiveness and mercy because forgiveness and mercy are not things that can be earned. They're given, right? And it's mercy, again, manifests in many different ways in A Song of Ice and Fire, some of which are actually merciful, right? And some of which aren't, some of which are gray, that gift of mercy, depending. And Theon's storyline is just one exploration of what is mercy and what does it take to be given it and maybe nothing will give it to you yeah mercy is obviously

one of my favorite themes to explore in a song of ice and fire and it's something that leads into theon's dance art really well uh it's really sad because Theon was a dick these past two chapters. All of us are like, Theon, what are you doing? You're being a piece of shit. Theon, what are you doing? has been a constant in our lives for like four weeks, right? But at the same time, that's why dance hits

so hard because when you open up on Reek 1, I mean, this isn't the punishment you wanted. This isn't what you wanted wanted this isn't what you wanted this isn't what any of us wanted like yeah he was a dick but no one deserves this and it's that whole you know think about quentin burning yeah on fire you know his layers of skin just melting off of him i mean this isn't what they deserve just because they played with fire and got burned and in dance we hear you have to know your name. That is his big touch

mark with fake Arya, with Jane that we're going to talk about so much. Oh, poor Jane. True. Pour one out for Jane, everybody. And Palla. Let's just pour one out for Palla too. Lady Hornwood and Jane. Drink for them. And Beth. And Palla, yeah. And Kyra. I mean, why not?

And all the feet. You know what? If you're a girl and it's a lot of ice and fire, homie, I got you. Pouring one out. But pouring a whole cask out tonight. But he's finding his identity finally in A Dance of Dragons. But even before Clash, he didn't know his identity. That's the biggest

thing. And he learns that especially in Theon VI. He's learning I don't know the Ironborn. I don't know the Northmen, and I can't lead them. This is what, you know, who are you, Theon, to lead the Northmen? Who are you to lead the Ironborn? He asks this in his first two chapters in Clash, and at the very end, he realizes, this is who I am. I can't lead them.

I can't lead them. So I'm excited to get into A Dance with Dragons, where he can come to terms and discover and accept who he is in being just and righteous and finding out what that actually means you know saving jane yes speaking of theon's pound of flesh uh sorry i flashed back to our earlier discussion that's what i'm gonna call it from now on theon's pound of flesh uh so so do you guys think that ramsey suggested the miller family due to his own history because his mother was actually the wife of a miller she was the miller's wife and she was raped by his father ruse and and his father killed his mom's husband and raped her. And do you think that maybe Ramsey's own history might have had something to do with his suggestion

to use the Miller family? Oh, I mean, absolutely it was. That's the answer. Because, I mean, we're talking about the guy who just like made a chick eat her own fingers. Like he's sadistic and he's cartoony and he's evil so since his since his mother was a victim of of rape do you and of course ramsay can't do anything against his father because he's lord bolton do you think that it's possible that theon's pound of flesh was taken as maybe some sort of deflected retribution.

Yeah, that's something I want to ask you, asking this question. Like, when you say that Ramsay is doing this because of his own history, like, are you saying that Ramsay's doing it just to, because this is what he knows? Or are you saying that he's doing it, like, in a way to take control of what happened in his past or something no no it's because i think that it's because of what he knows like i think that he probably when he was coming up towards winterfell he was like oh there's the miller and there's the miller's wife you know and he probably just kind of you know kept that in the back of his head and so yeah i think that probably just kind of, you know, kept that in the back of his head. And so, yeah, I think that he just kind of knew that. But when it came to actually like Theon's castration, he's like, what am I going to do to this guy? You know, what do I want to

do to this guy? And, you know, I want to chop off his penis. I don't know, I was thinking that maybe he actually may have wanted to use the honest sort of retribution that he cannot do to his own father. Yeah. I think Ramsey's got a lot of anger at the world that he takes out on people in general, obviously. And I do think that this was a, why don't you just kill the Miller's daughter?

I mean, it's also interesting when you think about the Miller's daughter? I mean, it's also interesting when you think about Ramsay's background and compared to like Obara, for instance, and Obara with Oberyn coming back for her and making her choose between her mother and the spear, and Ramsay

basically being the brunt and pain of Bruce's life, but his only son, obviously, after murdering off dumb Eric and I don't know it's just interesting I definitely think there's a connection there that Reek egged him on to kill the Miller's children and also

it's the weird connections for Theon as well so you know Reek forcing him to do that Ramsey forcing him to do that uh one be nice to dumb Eric I love dumb Eric. Put some respect on his name. I love dumb Eric.

We respect dumb Eric in this household. Two, I might have lost my train of thought, but I'm going to try and get back on it. The idea that Ramsey is doing this to Theon in a way that he's unable to do to his father i think it's an interesting idea because we see that in later theon chapters there is somewhat of a fraught relationship between ruse and ramsey like ruse is like ramsey you fucking idiot what are you doing and ramsey's like i'm trying but not i don know, he's just doing whatever the fuck he wants.

But I think there's, I think that might be an aspect at play, maybe an undercurrent, but I don't know if Ramsay himself would be aware of it, just because I feel like something that we're supposed to take away that is horrific about Ramsay is that it is unfair. There's no justice, there's no rhyme or reason necessarily to why he's a bully and does this. Yeah. Yeah. And he just kind of likes it too. Sure.

You know, that he's definitely got that going, but I just found it very interesting that, you know, he was like, Hey, there's the Miller's wife over there. Let's,

let's go over there. And of course his mom was definitely the Miller's wife over there. Let's go over there. And of course, his mom was definitely a Miller's wife. Yeah. Definitely some interesting parallels. It's definitely in there. Yeah, there's an interesting recursion that I don't think I've ever really thought of that

before. Wonderful. Well, gang, I think we finished it. We finished Theon in a clash of kings thanks to our lovely lovely lovely guest miss amanda from the disputed lands on youtube thank you so much again amanda for joining us on this episode thanks for having me it was a lot of fun i appreciate it yeah go ahead and shout out where people can find you one last time all your little spiel of accounts so i do have a YouTube channel.

It's called The Disputed Lands. And I do have an entire series on ironborn legends. And we go into detail on ironborn culture and religion and history. And you can also find me on Twitter at crowfood underscore SD. Yes, we will link all of those in the description below. This has been a blast. I am really excited to get into Reek 1

next week in A Dance with Dragons. So looking forward to that. Yes, we are getting into Reek 1. Who's that? Who's Reek? Didn't he die? A new POV.

But just as we get someone to help us say farewell to Theon, we're going to have someone help us say hello to Reek. And that is another one of our fellow Redden mods and one of my really good friends, Michael, aka Bookshelf Stud, who's a co-host of mine on Maester Monthly. Well, as always, you guys, this has been a blast. Thank you so much for listening. You can find us on the internet as at Girls Gone Canon on Twitter. And if you like, feel free to send us a DM.

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We just had our Elaine 1 in the Winds of Winter episode come out, and it was spectacular. We had a blast doing it and if not we will still always bring you these free episodes every week on fridays we are going to have a stretch goal when we reach a thousand of doing a live stream a secret show yes can't wait as As always, I am Chloe. You can find me on the internet as at Liza and Arbor or at Liza and Arbor gold.com. And I am Eliana, also known as Glass Table Girl. Have a good one.

Goodbye. Bye.