Girls Gone Canon Cast - ASOIAF Episode 40 - Reek ADWD Intro/I (Ft. BookshelfStud)

Episode Date: February 22, 2019

Turns out, Ramsay Snowlton was Reek... so who the hell is this new POV? Reek struggles to remember his name and forget a boy named Theon Greyjoy.  Michael's Blog: https://offmichaelsbookshelf.wordpress.com/   Michael's Twitter: https://twitter.com/bookshelfstud  Michael's YouTube (with cooking videos): https://www.youtube.com/user/Bookshelfstudios  Michael's reddit account: https://www.reddit.com/user/bookshelfstud    Eliana's twitter: https://twitter.com/arhythmetric Eliana's reddit account: https://www.reddit.com/user/glass_table_girl Eliana's blog: https://themanyfacedblog.wordpress.com/  Chloe's twitter: https://twitter.com/liesandarbor Chloe's blog: www.liesandarborgold.com 

Hello and welcome to episode 40 of Girls Gone Canon Reek one in a dance with dragons. I am one of your hosts, Chloe. You can find me on the internet at www.liesandarborgold.com or on Twitter and Tumblr as Lies and Arbor. Lies and Arbor. Wow. That's a good one. House Lies and Arbor.

I mean, that is what they are in many ways, as we'll see here later. But... It's not that deep. I'm another one of your hosts eliana and you might know me from twitter as arithmetric or as glass table girl on the a song of ice and fire separate it or on the maester monthly podcast which speaking of because that's how i'm gonna segue for all of these people yeah we have an awesome guest with us from the maester monthly podcast and another moderator on our song of ice and fire we have an awesome guest with us from the maester monthly podcast and another moderator

on our song of ace and fire we have bookshelf stud on with us today hello oh i'm so excited i'm i'm so happy to be here to be official girl gone canon now um yes i am you're a bookshelf i am a bookshelf gone canon i am michael also known as bookshelf stud as they've pointed out you can find me on maester monthly on the subreddit slash r slash aswaf and on twitter at bookshelf stud as well that's you man I'm so excited

thanks for coming on this is going to be really good it's a very sad episode to bring you on for it is a little bit this was not the cheeriest this is what we think of yeah glad you thought of me yeah no problem i mean michael has a lot of feelings so it'll be fun i assume you do yeah no i do they're all bottled up yeah i'm never gonna let them out let them out today be an interesting one anyway so we have a whole episode here today for you fine friends and

again this is a reread so you know what it's coming but we just want to throw out there content warning that of course theons dance with dragons chapters are very graphic and we will be discussing issues of abuse and sexual assault in today's episode in the upcoming episodes but we'll we'll flag that read time for you as well yeah i'm gonna need a xanax after these weeks like every week like daily holy shit the last these are some traumatic chapters at least the last chapter is like ends on a fist pump you know yeah wait no no that's asha's chapter shit well no no i mean well yeah oh well i mean this too though his last chapter does too i mean which we're going to talk about later

for sure the leap to faith yeah no but I'm definitely I'm going to be pounding the St. John's Wort after this one's over what no you know like an herbal supplement for cheering my mood up oh I didn't know that's what that was yeah St. John's Wort

we're getting cultured very much witchy but we do have some emails and tweets of note today yeah eliana you'll love this we got a review on itunes not as exciting as a pod bean comment though so settle down uh we got a comment from happy sleeper 88 who said we were binge worthy i love the girls gone canon they are insightful and fun i just caught up and i'm excited for more but sad i now have to wait and i can't binge listen to episodes chloe and eliana thank you for keeping me company through some late night feeding sessions with my six month old baby she likes listening to and her first words maybe get a job okay but have you thought about dad no. I think that would be so much funnier

as your child's first words. I mean, these are actual words that your child will probably want to learn early on anyway. But to be fair, like her kid walking around grocery stores and telling people to get a job, that could be good too. That's true, or anywhere.

I mean, like this kid's gonna be employment focused. This kid is gonna be employment focused this kid is gonna be employment focused yeah yeah taking them to the career center that's great exactly have them take a uh what's the test the the aptitude test oh exactly maybe that's what what are you gonna be when you grow up kid jobless like little finger uh christ well no happy sleeper 88 your child will be gainfully employed fulfilled yeah we believe in them and you thank you for listening to us hopefully they won't be conniving evil yeah people that don't have jobs they're gonna be a normal kind of ambitious yeah yeah there's some people that should get some jobs in this chapter too now that

we mentioned it yeah uh there's another thing that we would like to discuss this isn't technically in my opinion girls gone canon related but it kind of is it is it was dedicated to me so i feel like it is exactly it came up on my timeline i was was like, wow, this is amazing. And then I saw it was directed at you. And I was like, I think that counts. And it is of note. So this tweet, it comes from Aaron, aka Sir Jamie of Tarth. equals agot. This is all sounded out. This is very good. Because to me, I'm just saying what I'm seeing, which is agot. Which is why I'm feeling very attacked right now.

She tweeted agot equals agot. A-C-O-K equals ACOC. Again, feeling attacked. Is this an attack or just facts? No, I mean facts. A-S-O-S equals A-S-O-S. A-F-C, A-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F- dub-a-dub today. I mean, now that I'm thinking about it in my head, yeah, that's pretty much how a dance with dragons gets sounded out. A-du-a-du.

It might be a little more like lower, you know? A-du-a-du. Like, kind of... Yeah, maybe the cadence of it is a little... A-du-a-du? I still don't know about a-fuck, though. Yeah. A-fuck.

Don't forget the second f i think i think i'd go with afk you know afk i like afk so this all started michael maybe you can give a little exposition here on uh aswaf yes your pronunciation see i'm a i'm an aswaf i'm sorry i'm a aswaf not to be prissy yeah i mean aswaf is a good variant. That's like the northern dialect. But as a southerner, as a southerner, it's definitely Aswaf. I mean, yeah. No, Aswaf, that's how I've always pronounced the subreddit in my head. And I remember back when we were first starting Maester Monthly, we were talking about like, okay, what do we call people who listen to this?

And we threw around ass waffles as an idea for the names of fans which I still use so I think we should now adopt Aaron's pronunciations for people who are fans of the specific books so you know I if that's your favorite then you're an

a do-a-do-er a do-a-dutter and I'm just a fucker, apparently. I mean, I think we all are, right? I don't know. I just feel like we could also go soft-see. Affish. I don't say A-sauce as A-sauce.

I say it as like A-sows, but yeah. I say A-sauce. A-sauce! Making the sauce. Say it in Libby. Yeah. Making the sauce. Say a lovey. Yeah. Lovey. Oh, yes.

Please check out Michael's YouTube channel where he has many great cooking videos. Speaking of sauce. I can't believe we haven't talked about it yet. That's true. Yeah. That's, yeah. I am making another one currently. There will be.

What are you making? I can't tell anyone yet. It's a secret. Okay. Well, we will definitely have to repost it for all of the adoring fans. It's the fourth entry in my recipe trilogy. Well, thankfully, we're going to be talking about food later on in this chapter. Maybe not the delicacies that you create, but snacks.

Some rodential treats. Rodential. Rodential and phalangic. Oh, God. Those are words. Thank you. $7 words for 9 a.m.? Not bad.

Not bad. You're doing amazing. But first, first we should get into our lightning round. Michael, your first time on the show. Ready for your first lightning round? First time, long time. I'm so ready. Yeah.

So for the fans, you know our lightning round first time long time i'm so ready yeah so for the fans you know our lightning round we're gonna catch up on what we really missed in a feast for crow from reek's plot and of course get into what we've missed so far in adobada i can't believe you said a feast for crows like not afk no and then i said adobada totally naturalduh, totally natural. I guess I'm in a-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh. A-duh-duh-duh-duh. You gotta put the utter at the end of the name of the book. Freaking, I'm that Wayne Wood guy right now. Oh my god. Okay.

So, in A Piece for Crows, Ramsey has become the castellan of the Dreadfort and is gathering an army to lead south to Motekale and to throw the Iron Thorn down. Also, Jamie sees Arya? Question mark, question mark, question mark. Off before she heads north to marry Ramsay Snow Bolton. Which launches us into Adobada. God damn it.

I just can't not say it now. I know, I know. I think you should wrap your tongue around it, you know, get the taste of it. Yeah, you know, I would just really dip my toes in. In the prologue of A Dance with Dragons, Varamyr Sixskins is dying and searches for a new body to take over.

Then in Tyrion's first chapter in Edoida, buried deep in alcohol and guilt, Tyrion makes his way to Illyrio Mopatis' manse in Pentos. And then in Daenerys' first chapter in Edoida, because I want to join in the fun,

Daenerys' soldiers are murdered in the night by the sons of the harpy but by the chapter's end she learns that her dragons have been doing some murdering themselves gasp i thought that was a good transition thanks i can't some of these you're like wow how did you just sum that whole chapter up in like one sentence? Chloe, you're a legend. Thank you. You are a legend. I agree. Thank you.

John 1. By night, John dreams through the eyes of a wolf. By day, he treats with kings. The Red Woman gives him an ominous but familiar message. In Bran 1, Coldhands, an undead ranger, guides Bran's RPG party through the forest, and tells them of the three-eyed crow. Crow, not raven. That's right. Come on, corn.

Tyrion too. Tyrion makes his way up the Rhoyne, smuggled out by Illyrio, sent to solidify a new husband for the dragon queen. Aw, sounds like a really nice little matchmaking service. I bet it's going to turn out great. It is, like in Mulan, the dragon queen. Aw. Sounds like a really nice little matchmaking service. I bet it's going to turn out great. It is, like in Mulan, the matchmaking. It turned out great there. Wow.

Well, side by side with Tyrion too, we have the Merchant's Man. Adventure stinks. Quentin takes off on a dazzling trip to win the heart of a beautiful queen. Hooray, Quentin. Aw. My son. In Jon's second chapter, we get a behind-the-scenes look at Sam 1 in Effuk, but this time with a twist, we learn the motives behind Jon's seemingly cold actions in this director's

cut of the chapter. Tyrion 3. Tyrion meets the Griff family and puzzles out exactly who they are Davos 1 Davos is captured at Sisterton and learns news of the realm. Boral tells Davos a story of another honorable man who visited Sisterton once

Boral lets Davos go just like his father did for Ned Stark In Jon's third chapter a lot of bullshit happens in this chapter get ready for some maegor lightning get it insert the insert the laughs right here uh john is upset about stanny burning mance and the horn of jorman stanny puts on an azora high show for the wildlings making them burn their gods for salvation. And finally, Bowen Marsh the pomegranate himself isn't happy about Jon's politics,

and Aemon thinks Stanny is not the real deal. Well, if Grandpa Aemon says so. Grandpa knows best. Sure does. Granddaddy dead dragon. Matching this to the tune of Mother Knows Best from Tangled. Aemon knows best. Works. Oh god, yeah. Works.

Daenerys too. More murder happens at the Oran Marine Express. She gets a weird vision of Quaithe with some cryptic message slash warning. She goes to work, deals with some people there, and she later chats about Dad's stark barbarism. See, Dany has a job. She does. Yeah, she does. She has got a job job. She does. Yeah, she does.

She has got a job, doesn't she? Yeah, she sure does. You know, a lot of the ladies in these chapters, I've noticed, always have jobs. But then you have people like Tyrion just fucking around or Littlefinger existing. It's just like, what are you doing? Get a fucking job. And that launches us into Theon and Adabada, a dance of dragons. It just doesn't get old.

It doesn't get old. Will it? I don't know. I think there's a point where it gets old, but if you commit and keep doing it, it comes back around again. That's right. I think if you wait and then you come back with it, you put it on the table real soft, just slip it in. I think that's when it's going to be good after another 10 minutes of it.

I think that's when it's going to be good after another 10 minutes of it. So there's a lot, obviously, that happens in A Dance with Dragons and Theon's arc. And of course, right at the top, as everyone knows, because this is A Song of Ice and Fire, there's a continuation about this idea and question of identity we talked a lot during a clash of kings about how theon was wrestling with that idea of who is he as an ironborn who is he as a stark somewhere in between and trying to figure out exactly what his place is and all this and this idea of identity goes in a different direction entirely and is taken to the complete extreme with reek and of course we see a lot of that idea of who is family take on a different tone in oh no now i can't like say because we said we're gonna rest it for 10 minutes and dance um regarding blood no i said after 10 minutes we were going to rest it for a little bit so you're good you should just

have said it you're right adowada it's so early everyone oh gosh so early questions about um you know who is family like the show gives us one version of what theon ends up seeing as his family. And of course, we see him interact with Asha earlier on. And then we're going to see him come back around for that in dance. But we have those questions and people calling Theon a kinslayer. And questions of what does that mean? Is it about the Miller's boys?

Is it about the ties and how close he was with house stark so there's all of that yeah you hear roger at casella in the last uh chapter that we talked about with amanda crowfood's daughter i mean roger straight up was like you know you were you killed your brothers theon because as we see theon grew up with them you know that's the familial kinslaying comes from that but But at the same time, he has all this family that he barely knows that doesn't even want to show up in his plot. You know, there's no Victarion in his plot. There's no Euron in his plot. There's Asha.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And just like they did in the show, that's obviously connected to the other characters like Jon, who is still Ned's son, even if he's not Ned's son. It's all connected. All the Stark kids, including Theon, because he's a Stark kid. Like, which, you know, that was a really nice season seven touch when Jon was like, you're always going to be a Stark. You know, you're a Greyjoy and a Stark dude. You're always a Stark.

Chill. Like, also, that's what it needed. That's the whole thing that's gonna fix theon's identity issues right like what we should have done this books ago i mean he's episodes ago he's both yeah we should have fuck yeah yeah shut up you're fine you're both oh i wish someone had told me that four years ago you're both sexual what before i killed those children yeah that's true i could have headed off some stuff yeah if only if only i had john whom i thought so poorly of to be my dad in this moment also okay and of course that question of memory and how it ties into identity like the things that

you remember which influence what you do and the memories of that life that you have. Of course, we see the North Remembers suddenly coming to the forefront of dance. It is as much a part of Theon's storyline as well, and we're going to see that idea of remembrance repeated in the language of Reek One. Yeah, and we really get a firsthand view of the violence that keeps that North Remember running war cry as well. I mean, when you think about it, we did see the North Remember start up in clash against Theon, right?

You see Roderick Cassell, who rises up and he does his duty to the Starks. I swore a vow, Theon, damn you. And that violence that keeps the North Remembers the running war cry keeps going, especially in this chapter. We get the introduction to it. Ned wasn't always the most cunning per se, but he held up his end of the feudal contract for the most part, the best out of most of the Paramount Lords, I would say, right? Like, I wouldn't say any are awful in comparison to some of the Tywins of the world, but as far as Paramount Lords go, you know, the north is a lot different the bolton faction

is obviously corrupt and bleeding literally bleeding people so it's a very very stark oh thanks i'll be here all day for sure that was it and course, a lot of that bleeding is done by another, well, as in they are causing the bleeding, not themselves bleeding yet. Another one of the big Aswath villains, Ramsey. people abuse that hierarchy that they have and serves very much as a dark mirror to outcast characters like Theon and Jon, who both exist in this sort of hierarchical limbo. And while Ramsey, of course, is a version of Jon's storyline in terms of that dangers of overly ambitious bastards, he's also a version of Theon's storyline where we get to see someone become that quote-unquote legitimate Lord of Winterfell and what they do with that sort of major villains you mentioned joffrey and there's the you know the the dog's connection obviously with the hound and literal dogs and the sort of physical and emotional abuse

and ramsay sort of transitions us from joffrey towards euron and his just complete like ramsay lack of regard for anybody's autonomy or anything but even on the metaphysical level like he doesn't believe the world should exist without his permission whereas ramsey is is you know limited to like things that he can see because he's just a big dumb idiot and sucks but yeah so ramsey is this transition villain kind of during the feast here during the during the the feast for crows and dance with dragons. Give it a while. You can say it again in a while. I'm watching my time.

I'm just going to keep a beeper here so I can just go beep. It's been like 20 minutes. You can't say it yet. I really love what you just said there, Michael, about the transition with Euron as the next level, especially because we're going to get into all this exploration of the themes that we see in Euron's chapters. I mean, he does a lot of the same stuff, a lot of the psychological kind of crazy stuff

that you see from Ramsay, but he does it on the next level with like a layer of fucking dark wizard over him, you know? Yeah, exactly, yeah. Yeah, it's a little scarier. It's amped up to 10, and obviously, especially with the blood magic

and all of that, it's like there's actually, the actually there compared to ramsey obviously we know something has to happen to get him out of here yeah ramsey's a very personal villain in some ways but transitions to a larger one and of course wrapped up in the way that ramsey acts is the story about power and perhaps inextricable from power, how abuse manifests. As you were saying regarding the dogs, both in The Hound, and of course, how Ramsey uses literal dogs and uses that as an exertion of that power in abuse. You have all of these issues of servitude and how that, know forcing people into it and making them act that

role there's always been this contrast throughout the series of dogs and wolves you know get her a dog she'll be happier for it that kind of thing um and so i think ramsey is is another piece of that puzzle with the dogs that as opposed to the starks who have these wolves who are the noble wild beasts of nature he is he is all about clamping down and putting collars around people and that enforcing of the hierarchy as opposed to Bran or someone who has a good relationship with this wild thing. Yeah, it's just another part of that wolf-dog puzzle symbol soup gumbo that George R. R. Martin's stirring up.

So what you're saying, Michael, is that Getter a Dog, She'll Be Happy For It was actually foreshadowing in the books for the scene in the show where Sansa marries Ramsay. Oh my god! Absolutely, yes, 100%. Fuck. That's why the show is so good, is because they take these little clever things. Oh, yeah.

Oh, my God. It's too bad that the books changed it. But also me. Yeah, it's really too bad. I mean, they did make these books off of the show, but I'm really glad they did. No, I love when they do that. I love when they expand universes because the David and Dan gentlemen have just done such a good job of writing this expansive, well-built universe,

great, strong foundation. So it's great that they've let this newcomer George really sit down on a word, word star and word star, word star, word star, word star. Yeah,

I do. I do also on the other level, appreciate that like it's Sansan. That line of Sansan. Continue, guys. Yeah. I was like, Chloe's going to love this. This line. Me.

Him. Dogs. The hound. Him. Get her a dog. She'll be happier for it. Me. Is this pandering?

Is this? This sounds like pandering. for it me this is pandering is this this sounds like pandering and of course there's that idea of courage and heroism coming up in these chapters because we see very much how in a clash of kings oh sorry in acock how theon thinks that heroism is being in battles like the whispering one he thinks it's performing this ironborn masculinity and pillaging places and getting dad to like pat you on the shoulder, which I mean, sometimes it is, but sometimes it's not. By the end of Dance, he finds this idea of actually true courage in the face of fear, which is how it is defined by Ned Stark. Yeah, for sure. And it's connected to a lot of the big ideas about courage and heroism throughout the whole story.

And Ramsay's one of these people who's standing by in a room while something awful is happening, specifically to Jane Poole later in this arc. And so it's opening up that question of like, well, what do you do if you're in the room when the worst possible thing is happening? Like, do you stand by? Do you turn away and pretend you don't see? Or do you do something about it? And in the

end, he does something. And that, it's like Brienne's no chance and no choice moment. It's like every moment where some character does something that's kind of suicidal, but really is trying to do something to make things better. I see that as the direction that it goes in a little bit. Even if he can't really kill Ramsay and take over the castle himself. He can do this one small thing that helps one person. And that's in the end, you know, that's the real heroism is the friends we make along the way. So I think that's... God damn it. Especially when we see so many self-serving knights, quote unquote, in this story and self-serving just like lords and people,

people that have obviously, like we said, signed that feudal contract and aren't up and upholding their end you know it's interesting and it's very refreshing to see characters like that who are just doing things not just for themselves anymore absolutely the word that came to mind for me when you were discussing this idea of like doing something when something terrible is happening and and standing up for it is this idea of like doing a noble act and i think that that's something that very much is a question i don't think it's ever explicitly called out of course in in the story but this idea of what is nobility because of course you have that idea of moral nobility of doing the right thing and that's contrasted very much with how in terms of class, the nobility act and it all gets all gravy in these reek dance chapters as

everyone is slipping in and out of different stations. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we'll see in this chapter how the nobles of the North behave when they don't care about someone's wellbeing or like this, this very chapter shows that off,

not just with Ramsey, but with other people. Oh, exactly. It's actually interesting because we get it and i'm gonna get into it later because i kind of want to rant about it but we get that even in brand's chapters in clash you know we get we kind of get a look at the northern lords and a lot of these northern lords throughout all these books are pretty self-serving i mean yeah wyman manderley is like oh they murdered my family blah blah. And I'm a Stark man through and through. And we're going to get Rick on, though, so I can be the regent of Winterfell in my reign in the north. You know, all in Ned Stark's name, of course, all in Ned Stark's name.

But it's like you also know there's obviously self-serving in there. Like what the Manderlys who have probably the richest northern lords, obviously, after the Starks, I would say. They have the most dinero happen in there because of trade so uh yeah yeah yeah wyman okay wyman we get it you're like wyman and dynan you know what i'm saying oh wow that's some dumb shit right there that was good that was good shit that was that good shit man shit. I like it. I'm going from Wyman to the women. That was a good one too. In the north and of Winterfell, we are going to see Ramsay talk about, you know, some of those Stark girls, but not those Stark girls, but also kind of those Stark girls. But other people are there too.

Yeah, we're going to talk a lot more about female ladies in the north. We get a handful in Theon's chapters. I really love that. It's great to see George take time to sketch that out. I feel like we see a lot of younger ladies sketched out and that it's nice that people like Barbary and Donella Hornwood have a good amount of page time in these books compared to, you know, what you'd expect them to have as kind of supporting barely their female characters. So I'm pretty impressed about that. It's also great that we get background and kind of ladies shaded out in most of the regions right now. Like we have in the Vale, we have Miranda and Maya who are starting to have a good amount of like backstory and personality and, you know, whatever exposition. We have Cersei and King's Landing and Tyena for a while with her. A little weaker, I guess, but you do have Margaery and et cetera. Sansa's not there now, so that kind of takes that camera away. And then Dorne, we have tons of leading ladies there, which like, I don't know about you guys,

but I just imagine the Sand Snakes having their own intro song and like, just like some sort of cartoony animated intro song with like different colors for each person and little like... Sailor Sand Snakes. Ditties. Yeah, very exactly exactly the thing that I keep meaning to make one day and never do that could be that could be ice and fire con costumes that's true wow I'd be into it I'd be into it and then in the north we have a ton of females I mean as we said barbrae we have donella val in john's plot melisandre salise shelyse, Shireen, even Wyla Manderly gets some pages, Lyanna Mormont's heard from. And I do feel like the North tends to have a little

bit more of the female rule as well. You don't hear as many female rulers in the crown lands, et cetera. So I think war also kind of comes into play because after this war and after everyone's husband died fighting for Rob, the females have been forced to rule so it's really interesting to see that turn of the tide in rulership and stewardship in the north yeah exactly this is just a random aside but i think that george mentioned that he had an aunt barbary right at the fire and blood event and i'm wondering yeah is barbary dustin named after her her? That was the thought that I had. Oh, I'm sure. She totally feels like someone's, like, the aunt who you see, like, once a decade at, like, a funeral or something, and she's, like, really bitter.

I feel like that's an archetype that a lot of people can tap into. Yeah, she's a very real character in that sense. Yeah. Among other themes that we're going to talk about with loss, there's a lot of loss we're going to discuss. And of course, what is justice? Who deserves forgiveness? Who deserves mercy? And when should vengeance be served to people? Yeah, and that's one of the big ideas in dance generally, you know, is this vengeance and forgiveness and mercy and all that.

And jumping ahead a little bit to the end of Theon's arc, which, you know, is this vengeance and forgiveness and mercy and all that. And jumping ahead a little bit to the end of Theon's arc, which, you know, spoiler alert, but I think all of this does suggest that deep down the author, or at least the story, is still pretty romantic about some of these ideas. Theon can't exactly atone for or like wash out the bad things that he's done, but he is still able to do good things while he's alive. He might not be able to make everything better, but he can do good things still. And I feel like that's kind of what the idea of forgiveness and mercy and justice are all tied up in, is not necessarily like atoning one-to-one for what you've done. Maybe not like Stannis' cutting off finger bones

thing, but just doing good things now. You still still have your life you're still alive you can still do good in the world so i i mean theon's really at the heart of that in the fifth book of the series song vice and fire of course this all lands us into reek one a brand new point of view god damn it in reek one reek was ramsay snow so now we have a new fellow who is starving in the bowels of the dreadfort who is he who is she he used to smile he used to always be smiling but now he doesn't so much on account of some missing teeth and some other parts and so that brings us into reek one where honestly it was just so hard to not want to read every line of this chapter aloud because when you talk about the writing getting better and dance like this is this is a perfect example of it like it's so good yeah but so terrible it's really good no yeah it's

excellent and it's it's uh it's very short and punchy it's a really short chapter it's like eight pages in the paperback or something so compared to some of these other really dense like john three chapters that just stretch on and on with all these little details like reek one is just a proverbial punch in the gut well written and doesn't linger too much on things that really it could linger on like horrible horrible things yeah it kind of edges into horror without being as gross as it could be. Yeah, there's a lot of edging. What the fuck? Yeah, lots of edging. These chapters are really rough.

This is going to be rough. They are. And like in theory, as you were saying, it's a short chapter and not a lot technically happens in terms of action. But it's such an exposition chapter that it can span those eight pages and still be entertaining because of how like that slow reveal yeah i mean when you when you put it in bullet points of like what physically happens it's a guy goes upstairs that's the whole chapter yes a guy goes upstairs to the to the kitchen or something like which says a lot about how monumental it is for him to do that and how long he's been down there yeah yeah i mean he does go

up to a feast but it does start with him having a little feast right it does um reek who were introduced to has a rat it's very exciting the rat is still alive but reek is just too hungry and must just bite into its soft, warm belly. Yeah, before Reek can fully enjoy his meal, though, things start happening. Voices are here. Yes, so let me read this passage real quick. At once he stilled, fearing even to chew. His mouth was full of blood and flesh and hair, but he dare not spit or swallow.

He listened in terror, stiff as stone stone to the scuff of boots and the clanking of iron keys. No, he thought. No, please, gods, not now. Not now. It had taken him so long to catch the rat. If they catch me with it, they will take it away and then they'll tell and

Lord Ramsay will hurt me. He knew he ought to hide the rat but he was so hungry. Oh my god. Thank you, Andy Serkis. Take care, buddy. I'll see you. Well, you made that passage much more

stomachable, so thank you. I thank you, because otherwise I'm sitting here and I'm gagging. Flesh and blood and hair. Thanks. you can stop saying it you already said it once everyone it's not that we're not taking the on the reek chapter seriously it's this is how we this is the way we can like deal with it at this moment this is our coping mechanism right now

yeah it's i i think that like there's what is there to say there's just that question of what the hell are we talking about here and then there's that and we know now that reek is not ramsey as he was revealed in clash yeah and it's also like we leave clash with theon being knocked out so the whole transformation idea and how this reveal is coming is like it really this especially just hammers in like he's been down there in the dark forever like it's been books like we haven't seen him in forever he's been starving for days and he's super skinny but like he's got that like swollen belly thing going on and like the hollow kind of thing and it's just a complete contrast of all the last

times we saw him versus now like him in his lordly clothes you know his velvet his gold chain it's so haunting so effective like i usually love the arcs and feasts just a little more than in dance but dance is really dense right and it's so good the dance is yeah dance is yeah it's dense dance is dense it's it's just heart-wrenching stuff it's very the prose is there it's horrible it's awful and it's there it's whole this is one of the few things too that actually may have worked a little better with the very long gap between books i mean clash comes out in 1998 and then we don't see the on again until 2011 yeah 13 years irl like now obviously you can just read them within a month of each other but you know imagine coming at it as a fan who read it in 98 and then you you get to book five and you're like oh my god theon i forgot about him

like what happened yeah i i was lucky enough to read them all in a row you know i joined on later so and i think that like helps but that i wish i had that effect of just not knowing and all of a sudden oh my god theon shit especially if you didn't like reread all four books before 2011 rolled around which some people did i'm sure and some people didn't but yeah i read them all like very quickly consecutively i think i read clash in one week storm the next and then feast the next and then we moved on to dance but even then like it feels like a lifetime away because you've gone through an entire like two books there's entire character arts and so many things have happened that when you get here it's still jarring of like what the red wedding happens

you're like what's happening who is this and you've been introduced to like all these other ironborn everyone dies it's still jarring just just structurally totally yeah totally yeah lady hornwood bless her haunts reek because lady hornwood had also been starving in a tower and eaten her own fingers. So, I'm gonna go on a rant for a while, so you guys just, you know, sit back, relax, open up a cold boy. 9am!

Well, I'm drinking a LaCroix right now. Oh, that's what you mean by a cold boy. I was like, I'm not about to open a beer. I could do, I guess, a bloody whatever. Ooh, that would be apt for this. Oh, that does sound good. Oh, that's what you mean by a cold boy. I was like, I'm not about to open a beer. I could do, I guess, a bloody whatever. Ooh, that would be apt for this. Oh, that does sound good. Oh, God. It really makes me upset thinking about how the Northern Lords acted about Donella.

Like, they acted like she was just a piece of meat and land to pass around in Winterfell at the Harvest Feast in Clash. But her actual fate is even worse like they only cared about her lands in her vagina and not what happened to her when ramsey had actually gotten a hold of her which she warned them about and that's what she was worth right like her womb and her lands and there are these quotes from clash bran is such a good boy let's just everybody give a clap for i can't wait for bran chapters it's my favorite thing i'm gonna get there emmett and i were just talking about this last night like he's like you're suffering. And I'm like, yes, I am suffering. I can't believe there are people who don't like

Bran chapters. Yeah. Yeah, they're wrong. I was surprised when I learned that. I was like, what? This passage from Clash has Bran talking to Lady Hornwood when she shows up. And of course, Lord Hornwood had died just a bit ago at the Battle of the Green Fork. We are very sorry for

all you've suffered, my lady, Bran said when she came before him to speak her words of greetings lord hornwood had been killed in the battle on the green fork their only son cut down in the whispering wood winterfell will remember that is good to know she was a pale husk of a woman every line of her face etched with grief i am very weary my lord If I might have leave to rest, I should be thankful. So we get like this wounded woman, right? She's suffered, obviously. She's aged and suffering. And, you know, they descend on her like a wounded gazelle. Every person in the hall is like, I'm the one to prey on her. And you get all these lines from, you know, Bolton's bastards. She tells them bolton's bastards massing men at the dread fort and he means to take them south to join his father at the twins i hope but i asked

him what was up and he was like you can't question me no bolton can be questioned by a woman like he's true born had a right to that name like she tells them ramsey's gonna pull some shit that bastard boy bastard boy's not telling me shit something's gonna happen and they're just like hey what if my heirs came over and hung out with you and then she named them her heirs instead because she doesn't have an heir i hope she likes them best or wyman manderley who's like lord wyman made polite inquiry after lady hornwood who was born a cousin of his she was born a manderley you know perhaps when her grief has run its course, she'd like to be a Manderly again. Eh? Eh?

Like, okay. Wink, wink. Nudge, nudge. Wink, right? Like, and she's dead three chapters after that. That's all in Bran 2, in A Clash of Kings, and in Bran 5, she's dead. Because of Ramsay, who she warned them about. Like, she deserved better.

Way better. She did. She didn't deserve this i'm getting real starting to get a little fighty you know i'm getting a little little fight or flight going on here putting the bubbles back in the la croix yeah oh my god no yeah the annihilator i feel like yeah it's some bullshit and and it because it's one of those things the show cut i think people forget about it or like don't think about Lady Hornwood very much. But that's a like, I don't know, that's a pretty foundational thing. The horrible things that were done to Lady Hornwood, not just by Ramsay, but the way she's treated by every single person. Like the way the system kind of grinds her down so that she's forced, like she ends up with no options.

that she's forced like she ends up with no options and like we said in our intro episode to theon in clash the north isn't exactly this progressive place people kind of make it to be like just because they really support ned and ned was a good man a just man that doesn't mean that all of the north is like some you know super liberally like oh our women should be fighters like we learn no rickard stark didn't want liana to have a sword like it's not it's not like just because ned says aria gets to go have dancing lessons everyone in the north is really progressive like obviously the men of the north still treated the situation like this yeah yeah and i mean you have some of these quotes here right from mr lewin about how lady danella is past her fertile years, as she said herself, if not the bastard who. And so they just pass her off because she's older, she's not good enough.

And because of that, she's just seen as expendable and she pays the price for all this. It's weird because on a reread and when you know what happens with Lord Vandererley even though he's still he's clearly self-serving and being a little ambitious but like that's a way better fate like at the very least like yes maybe politically they didn't want to do that for some reason but morally and ethically that was like a better than giving her to ramsey yeah and if someone would have just listened, you know, like no one listened. Bran listened, but what could he do? He wasn't really in control. He didn't really have anything to do.

And like, there's this line that I do love. It reminds me of Jon actually a lot, obviously, because Bran thinks of Jon, but he says, let Lord Hornwood's bastard be the heir. And Roderick says, that would please the Glovers and perhaps Lord Hornwood's shade as well. But I do not think Lady Hornwood would love us. The boy is not of her blood.

So I love that little Catelyn John analog too, that gets slipped in there. Yeah. Especially with the idea of everyone else is dead. Who else? You know, Catelyn, Lady Stoneheart,

like over my undead body, bitch. Oh my god. Yeah. Reek tries to continue scarfing down this rat, but the sounds get louder, and he prays that the steps are not for him. Get away, he prayed. Get away, pass me by, please.

Please. It's so sad. It is. Yeah, the quote goes on, you you know the rat fell from his fingers he wiped his bloody fingers on his breeches no he mumbled no oh god it's just so sad i know like that second no and just how it it doesn't even say it but like with that dialogue you just feel that i don't know that that that small exclamation of loss. It's just a rat. It's so gross, but it meant so much.

Yep. Yep. There's that line at the end of the passage that I really think is important because it really gives the environment that we're seeing Reek in. His heels scrabbled at the straws. He tried to push himself into the corner into the cold damp stone walls So like this is obviously somebody is coming for him And he's just pushing himself into this corner of this cell, and he's just that no that broken no He's just trying to disappear. You know he's like don't look at me because a he's ashamed, but be out of

Fear and preservation well yeah he knows that attention means suffering like if someone's paying attention to him it's not for a good reason anymore and we learn that like through sansa same thing she learns to just become invisible any of these characters that are suffering any form of abuse we learn that from in this book so george is very uh consistent i guess with his horrible horribleness thanks george you're the worst and so i guess some winds of winter spoilers we're going to chat about just real quick if you haven't read it please read the forsaken there's i know i'm on with like some forsaken fans eliana saw it live michael you saw it too i was in that room yeah yeah yep okay yep i know eliana usually says that so I wanted to head her off now.

Again, we deserve it. And I live in a very pro- Forsaken. You're on in the Forsaken household, so I totally understand. There's a lot of Forsaken propaganda going around all the time here. So he's suffering a lot, as we know, and George does a lot of repetition from what we hear in Aaron's chapters, like recurring ticks,

like the sound of rusty door hinges and the language of being chosen. Like you're on an Aaron's conversation of if he was praying to be chosen or praying to be passed by and the forsaken. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And it's honestly a kind of a similar structure to the forsaken as well, where you have,

it starts off with this almost unrecognizable shade of a man in the dungeons who is then brought upstairs before this total dickhead and his like bunch of frat guys who hang out with him. And obviously, Eron is brought before Euron's kind of version of these bastards boys, but where Ramsey is just a like a goof-ass idiot turd you're on is a conniving goof-ass idiot turd that's mystical conniving idiot turd to you maybe we can add pirate into that too piratical yeah mystical pirate yeah yeah but it's a nice connection to the the gray joy family really it's like a family tradition for them to get locked in a prison and just have horrible things happen to them tortured yeah tortured psychologically sexually physically just in every way that it can really happen yeah yeah pick one that and then later on you know r Ramsey doesn't have it, but we can also be magically tortured, apparently.

Yeah. Absolutely. Right. Euron really levels it up there. Yeah, cut my tongue out, Daddy. Okay. Okay. The light hits Reek's face

and the two voices decide, wait, no, this isn't Ham. Like, this can't be Ham, but isn't this the right cell record scratch you're probably wondering how i got here oh my god that's exactly what it is kind of yeah a little bit these kids fucking suck all right the boys make fun of him for eating the rats and then he confesses to eating the rats. They're like, I don't really care that you're eating rats. We just want to make fun of you for it. Yeah.

And then they come closer to him and ask him, talk to me. Do you remember who you are? Very important question. My name. A scream caught in his throat. They had taught him his name. They had. They had.

But it had been so long that he'd forgotten. If I say it wrong, he'll take another finger. Or worse, he'll... he'll... He would not think about that. He could not think about that. There were needles in his jaw, in his eyes. His head was pounding. Please, he squeaked, his voice thin and weak. He sounded a hundred years old. Perhaps he was. How long have I been in here? Go, he mumbled, through broken teeth and broken fingers. His eyes closed tight against the terrible bright light. Please, you can have the rat. Don't hurt me. Reek, said the larger of the boys. Your name is Reek. Remember, he was the one with the torch. The smaller boy had the ring of iron keys.

with a torch. The smaller boy had the ring of iron keys. Reek? Tears ran down his cheeks. I remember, I do. His mouth opened and closed. My name is Reek. It rhymes with leak. In the dark, he did not need a name, so it was easy to forget. Reek, Reek, my

name is Reek. He had not been born with that name. In another life, he had been someone else. But here and now, his name was Reek he had not been born with that name in another life he had been someone else but here and now his name was reek he remembered uh yo why this chapter is so horrific but it's so good we're all just like rubbing our eyes we're like this is just gonna be the longest section of my whole entire universe the next few weeks because it's like, this is just heavy. Holy shit.

Thank God Michael's here to get through it with us. Emotionally draining chapters. It is. Yeah. Thank the seven. You know, there's no one else that I'd rather have on Papa LaCroix with. We chatted a bit about Theon and other characters who take on and also lose different identities

in our Patreon episode from Halloween. Shout out to that. And we'll talk a little bit more in a bit on it later in this chapter as well. This passage has tons of foundational bits for Theon's journey in A Dance with Dragons, whether reek, reek,ek or remembering his name we also talked a lot about that whole beauty and the beast idea the last few episodes and this idea that theon

goes from you know spoiler a prince and turns into a cursed beast and this is truly the first look after the transformation is complete this right here is reek him wasting away in his cell the kids coming to point and stare at the animal in the cage and george doesn't fuck around dude he just goes straight into horror mode with all of this oh absolutely yeah i mean i feel like reek is kind of in the tradition of like the phantom of the opera or the man in the iron mask like uh this just a person who has been disfigured and reviled by society but instead of you know specifically in this in this universe in this book that is very much to do with other people like with Ramsey's doing these things to him it's not like the phantom who just disappears into a

cave somewhere or um the man in the iron mask which it's been forever since I've read so that reference is entirely lost in me now, like tears and rain, but it's a Aswath specific version of that. The guy who has lost his identity through so much horror. Yeah. We see it repeated with people like Sandor. We see it with Theon. It's rampant throughout this story.

The boys who were questioning, of course, it turns out are Big Walder and Little Walder and Reek remembers them. Finally, he fears going with them. He thinks this is a trap, but reminds himself they're only eight-year-old boys, which, as we know later on, there's some stuff that happens that, yeah, they couldn't do anything.

They're just eight-year-old boys. So we get this nice Ned Sansa-esque PTSD dive into his flashback here. So if this is a trap, he cannot run as he had tried years ago to do so with Kyra. Yeah. And this is a great opportunity for me to beat one of my favorite drums, which is that the writing does get better in the later books. Like people who complain about it are wrong objectively, but this is such a good flashback and it's really well done. There's a tricky thing with flashbacks in that's the switching tenses to make it clear that you're in a flashback, but then keeping the reader in the moment. And he's really good at going from like he had run before, had been Kyra with the keys. And then it switches to rather than she had begged. It just says she begged. And he said like it switches to present tense in the flashbacks. You feel like you're in and then jumps back in and that's tricky to do that's tricky to do it right if you try writing a scene like that you go oh where do i where do i put the hats where do i put the like where does

it switch from past perfect to past imperfect you know all these kind of things so i i just i just want to like champion that a little bit just be like this is good this is definitely it is no it's very compelling and this chapter especially like the writing moves very quickly and it keeps you in the moment even though it just like we talked about earlier this is a shorter chapter not a lot happens it's a guy that goes upstairs but every single second of these like eight pages keeps you gripped yeah yeah yeah and i think that the show made a right choice of not including flashbacks but so much of the story of a song of ice and fire has those flashbacks and is playing with this idea of time and we're gonna see that throughout this chapter where you know reek's been questioning he's like am i a hundred years old? How long have I been down here? So in this flashback, though, Kyra comes to Reek with keys and asks him to help her escape to Winterfell because she doesn't know the way.

They ran and splashed across the river and Reek told Kyra that he'd saved them. But turns out it was all just a game. They heard the hounds and Theon said they should split up. That way they can't both be tracked so easily. But Kyra was too scared and refused to leave him. Soon the dogs came, biting Kyra one at a time, and she

tried to fight back at first by throwing stone at Ramsay's head, and then she missed. Ugh. Yeah. Reek remembered the desperate, frightened look in Kyra's eyes she never looked so young as she did in that moment still half a girl but there was nothing he could do she brought them down on us he thought if we had separated as i wanted one of us might have gotten away the memory made it hard to breathe reek turned away from the torch with tears glimmering in his

eyes which hey by the way there that's the transition out of the flashback it's such a nice little yeah turning away from, yeah, anyway, really visual thing getting us back in the scene. What does he want of me this time? He thought, despairing. Why won't he just leave me be? I did no wrong, not this time. Why won't they just leave me in the dark?

He'd had a rat, a fat one, warm and wriggling. Oh, my God. That's straight up a Gollum. Like, that's from yeah yeah there's just it's so heart-wrenching because first you see kyra she tries to fight it's almost aria-esque you know she tries to fight back but she's still she's still a girl and so much of that escape here like what theon is suggesting but they are unable to do in his like plan of this is how we're gonna escape it it reflects that chapter where he's hunting the stark boys and how they succeeded

theon and kyra they crossed the river but they are not dire wolves and cannot swim upstream of it like the wolves are able to do and like the stark boys and their wolves they don't split up they stay together which we see in theon's chapter was integral to the starks being able to do and like the stark boys and their wolves they don't split up they stay together which we see in theon's chapter was integral to the starks being able to escape and like i think obviously a lot of this is patterned subconsciously on them and it's apt again with like ramsay being that dark mirror to theon but maybe part of why this plan doesn't work out for Theon and Kyra on a narrative level is going back to that idea of courage and heroism. Splitting up is a cowardly idea, the idea that only one of them might get away. And obviously, I think there's a slight hint there

that hope that maybe it's him on his part. But in the end, when we get to the end of Dan's, Theon stays with jane when they escape they do it together he's not running from his fears he's facing them and the way that he couldn't do anything for kyra he's trying to do something for jane especially when he's so included in jane's suffering in so many ways and he's there and he sees it and of course jane is someone he knew before the transformation so where kyra was just another girl where he kind of knew her, Jane was like, that's the girl that hung out with Sansa every day. It's why Theon's last A Dance with Dragons chapter and that leap to faith is so important. It's a literal leap to faith.

I also just realized particularly damning of him being unable to save Kyra is he's the one who's delivered her to this fate yep she was just like absolutely living a decent life in a tavern and then she he brings her over and then ramsey asks for her yeah yeah yeah it's all it's all it's all connected it's all that those sins of theon yes yeah it's really catholic uh i mean i feel like george's catholic guilt is it might be slipping in here a little bit some of theon's original sins so the two walders consider washing reek but they remember lord ramsey likes him stinky it's that's what they say. Yeah, I know, but what the fuck? So rude. Reek has to go with them. He must obey like a dog.

Yeah, Theon thinks of a tail talking between his legs, and then if I had a tail, he would cut it off. Early reference to losing the old hyenietals there? Yeah, I think so. Yeah.

It's a little on the nose or on the ball, I guess. Whoa. Oh my god. Yeah. Yes. Oh my God. Yeah. Yes. It's starting to hint at that, even though it's not said explicitly.

And as he's thinking this thought and fearing him, he's like, oh, wait, no, no, no. I'm sorry. The bastard won't cut it off. I can't call him a bastard anymore. He's Ramsay Bolton, not Snow. Yeah. Right. We get this little line. Calling him Snow reminded him of his bastardy and sent him into a black rage. Reek must remember that and his name. He must remember his name. For half a heartbeat, it eluded him and that frightened him so badly that he tripped on the steep dungeon steps and tore his breaches open on the stone, drawing blood.

Yeah, and again, names and how the holders themselves relate to them is just such a big thing in A Song of Ice and Fire, especially as we see in Afak and Edoida. Oh my god. Oh my god. How the title changes for the chapters and reflects those name changes. We see Theon in A Clash of Kings doesn't like when the Ironborn call him a Stark. It doesn't like when the Starks call him Theon Turncloak. We also see throughout, especially in this book, dance like Ramsay, of course, hates being called Snow as a reminder of his bastardy. And it's an interesting contrast to Jon, who has been taught since book one to own his bastardy. And he doesn't hate the name Snow, but he hates how it is paired with the word Lord.

He hates being called Lord Snow and Dance. Whereas Ramsay's craving that. I love all those mirrors. It's so good. Identity is like played on so hard in all of these interconnecting Stark plots too. It's like George really hammers this theme home, right? You have fake Arya, who's Sansa's best friend. Ramsay, who's really a bastard eventually

holding winterfell john snow who's secretly the heir to the universe who doesn't feel right holding winterfell sansa who gives up her identity lives under a fake name biding her time to take her home back aria who tries to shed her identity with no plan on taking back winterfell and rick on and his claim or whatever with him you know whatever and whatever. And I mean, even Lady Stoneheart and of course, good old Theon, you know, snarling in the middle of it, a prince forced to take on the identity of a horribly treated manservant and animal. Yeah. The way Arya totally sheds the name Arya throughout the books, like, you know, going from Weasel

to Airy or whatever, you know, all these different names. Lumpy. Absolutely connects to, yeah, yeah, absolutely connects with theon and reek here because both of them as sort of like defense mechanisms need to abandon the old name and then it's so funny that we have a fake aria it's this like three layered parfait yeah of aria theon identity swapping and and yeah just a big old big old double decker sandwich of of identities i'm getting hungry i think it's breakfast time yeah and yeah yeah like reek and aria become these just skins that someone can slip into oh yeah well we're getting like gross

while we're here yeah oh god again a little on the ball. Oh, God. And, of course, memory plays a big part in that. And in the yard, Reek is appreciating, wow, this is the outside world. Look at all these smells and the light. This is what it's like. Yeah. He did not know how long he had been down there in the dungeons, but it had to have been half a year at least. That long or longer. What if it has been five years or 10 or 20 would i even know so of course this is again playing with time but i have a i kind of

wonder especially because he talks about five years is this another five year gap reference like how little fingers like if only i had five more years for my seeds to plant and grow. I imagine it is. I mean, it's also playing on him not appearing since Clash as well. Yeah. 13 years. Yeah. And I mean, the time from Clash to Dance, for sure.

Yeah, it works really well on a meta level, that timelessness feeling. Like, wait, how long has it been? I also love that it's also like that little joke of, ha ha ha ha't know what time it is like everyone's on a different schedule in this book yeah the dungeons are just like removed from it but out here reek feels a cold wind and thinks oh winter will be coming soon and wonders how many fingers and toes he will have by the time it arrives oh so poor boy. He shivers a lot. The word shivers happens a bunch in this chapter.

He shivers a lot, and it's not just from the cold, but from thinking of Ramsay. So there's this whole, you know, loop connecting Ramsay, fear, cold, bad, no good, bad, Ramsay, cold, fear, you know, like all these things that all kind of get in the same semantic neighborhood. It's just kind of fun the way Ramsay is the cold and is the others. And, you know, he's all the bad things. And it's, I think, necessary for what makes this chapter so successful. It's very much showing that change as opposed to just telling us that this person is scared or that Ramsay is terrifying. Yeah, it makes you feel it in your bones.

He is shocked at his appearance in the light. He wonders again how much time has passed, but he makes his way to the hall, which smells delicious. All the real food, not just rats. As Reek goes through, he feels the eyes upon him and Ramsey is sitting with his favorites, the bastard

boys ben bones damon dance for me grunt sour alan skinner and yellow dick there are others who are familiar to reek but also strangers he shivers thinking that he was brought up here to amuse him and again like this is where the forsaken vibes really kick in when when aaron is brought up before um newt the bar or whoever it is i can't remember the ironborn who with you're on but when he's when he's brought before that sort of it's like a it's like a panel of judges who all suck um yeah yeah all corrupt yeah exactly and you get those great lines that i think also apply to this chapter which is what was it like blood is power yeah yes absolutely a lot with

those villain connections yeah two lords share the days alongside ramsey i'm just gonna read their descriptions here for them uh one was gone with flinty eyes a long white beard and a face as hard as a winter frost his jerkin was a ragged bearskin worn and greasy underneath he wore a Hmm. his teeth yellow, his fourth beard a tangle of snow and silver. Only a few wisps of white hair still clung to his spotted skull, but the cloak he wore was soft and fine. Gray wool trimmed with black sable and fastened at the shoulder with a starburst wrought in beaten silver. So these two lords are the Karstarks, I guess. What is it? Arnulf Karstark and Hothar Umber.

Yes, yeah. Yeah, Hothir Umber is the one wearing the bearskin and the ringmail Bernie, which makes him a Bernie bro. Oh my god. Topical. And then Arnulf Karstark, which we don't find out until later, but you can pick up on the

starburst rot in silver. There's no way to know who Hothir Umber is in this chapter. Unless the Umbers all wear Bernie's like those stupid fucking hats the Tarlys wear yeah it's interesting because you can tell just by their physical description that like oh even though Reek doesn't know them he's these people

already being framed as like shitty yeah his eyes were gray and greedy. Flinty eyes. Yeah, that little like beady eye. Exactly. Never good. Never good.

Worn and greasy. And alongside them is Ramsay. And he is, of course, dressed in the Bolton colors. And he's got this super edgy thing going on now. He's got a piercing. It's only in one ear because you know that's how you do and it's a garnet shaped like a drop of blood oh my god edgy it's a hot topic ass bitch i know right oh i can't believe that there's this like detail i forgot that was a detail about ramsey

i know that he has an earring i know i didn didn't because it shaped like a teardrop. Like, what is this, Sailor Moon? Jesus Christ. It does sound like one of those kinds of like 90s villains in the anime. Yeah. And of course, it's immediately also noted that, yet for all the splendor of his garb, he remained an ugly man. Like, Ramsay is still, George still does that thing with his villains, where the villains tend to look gross and ugly

and bleh, big wormy lips and bleh. Worm lips. Yeah. And there's an artist that makes really, really ugly art of Ramsey that looks right. And I'll have to figure out what their name is. You guys probably have seen it, but like they have big wormy lips on him

and it's just, oh, he's gross. I think I know. Yeah. Yeah. And they do a lot of other stuff too that I'm like, eh. have seen it but like they have big wormy lips on him and it's just he's gross i know yeah yeah yeah and they do a lot of other stuff too that i'm like it's interesting because we pointed it out before that both joffrey and ramsey are described with wormy lips but joffrey is still like in that realm of it's different from ramsey who you said is described as ugly and we know that he's evil underneath all that fine garb whereas joffrey was beautiful and dressed finely and still a monster yeah for his all that glitters is gold but not really yeah reek also notices that ramsay's eyes

are like his father's ghost gray because ruse bolton is in this story too ramsay introduces his serving man to these these other lords they're like this is reek and he's been with me since childhood they're like oh my god i thought that guy was dead like we went over this two books ago remember that guy's dead yeah and we get this whole passage where ramsey tells them you know the iron men will tell you what is dead may never die but rises again harder and stronger like reek he smells of the grave though i grant you that i that. I don't know. He smells of night soil and steel vomit. The stew-shouldered old lord tossed aside

the bone that he'd been gnawing on and wiped his fingers on the tablecloth. Is there some reason you must needs inflict him upon us whilst we're eating? You can be this person, Michael. Yeah. The second lord, the straight-backed old man in the male Bernie, studied Reek with flinty

eyes. Look again, he urged the other lord. His hair's gone white, and he is three stone thinner, I, but this is no serving man. Have you forgotten? The cork-backed lord looked again and gave a sudden snort. Him?

Her? Can it be? Stark's ward.'s ward smiling always smiling uh and ramsay says that like says like oh he smiles less often now after i've broken his teeth and and we get this like really gross like at the end this very last bit where theon's just like you you know, just damaging himself. Where Reek says, Yes, my lord, I was bad, my lord, insolent. He licked his lip, trying to think of what else he'd done. Serve and obey, he told himself, and he'll let you live and keep the parts you still have.

Serve and obey and remember your name. Reek, Reek, it rhymes with meek. This entire exchange, I wanted this in here because about the lords because it just goes to show you all those things that chloe was saying earlier like the northmen not all of them are that much better than the rest of the realm like they're describing the torture of theon as tedes to them they're like oh just kill him now and it just shows how removed they are from their humanity and their people like they're acting like they're that much better than theon because they're like oh he turned his cloak on the storks but here they are like just eating alongside ramsey and rules ruse bolton who

overthrew their lords at the red wedding like there's no justice in what's happening to theon this is a northern justice if they really wanted to give that they'd be like what the fuck are you doing let's just execute him now right that's what they would have don't play with your food exactly like you shouldn't be taking a pleasure in it like Ned Stark is like there should be no pleasure in that right and Ned wouldn't have done this he wouldn't have tortured Theon like these people are from the north but they're not the who we associate with that moral compass in A Slug of Ice and Fire. And the only reason they, like, are like, yeah, we should just kill Theon, because this isn't amusing to them. They're

complicit in all of this, like, bullshit. Yeah. Ramsey observes the blood on Reek, or Theon, Reek's fingers, and it chooses him, accuses him of chewing on them. Reek denies it, so, of course, he'd done that before to stop the pain from the flaying he lost another toe for doing that before so we just get more of this torture

of what ramsey's been doing to reek and reek confesses that he had been eating a rat ramsey says that these rats are stolen from the lord of the dreadfort ruse bolton i want to do a quick comparison of some of the language that describes the torture that Ramsay is doing with Joffrey. So in this chapter, we have sometimes Ramsay would make jokes about balancing him out. My lord was only japing. He tried to tell himself he does not want to hurt me. He told me so.

He only does it when I give him cause. His lord was merciful and kind. And compare that to in Sansa's first Clash chapter with the angry purple bruise Cimmeran had given her invaded to an ugly yellow, but still hurt. His face had been mailed when he hit her.

It was her own fault. She must learn to hide her feelings better so as not to anger Joffrey. And of course, what Sansa undergoes is not in the same extremity as what Theon does, but it is worth noting how this language frames both Ramsay and Joffrey as abusers the same way. They are villains, and their power works by twisting that world and reality to make their victims feel as though when they do something, this quote-unquote punishment is their quote-unquote fault, and that the abuser was forced forced to do it rather than it truly being the

fault of the one committing the evil act and again it's like that dark meredithian grayjoy who in clash thought he was so merciful despite killing the northmen and taking over winterfell and it's that question of well it's not really mercy right is it really mercy to do something awful to people and then when you don't go further call it goodness right yeah yeah absolutely that's totally the tywin model too yes like yeah you know his his whole hypocrisy of like oh when when if when you've got a foe beaten and they kneel down like take their hand welcome them back up but that's not what he does it's much more in the line of what ramsey does and what joffrey does which is beat the shit out of someone then tell them it's their fault

and that they made, they made you do it. Yeah. And then of course there's that grooming of like that psychotic, scary, like Cersei was on it too with Joffrey and Sansa of that, like, Oh,

but we love you. You know, you're the most beautiful girl in the world and you're a princess and we love you, but also this is all your fucking fault and you better be prettier. I'm going to murder you. I like it when you're pretty, you know,

like, yeah, Theon's experiencing that, but times five so one of the lords is finally like this is totally tedious you should just kill him but there's more in store ramsey tells reek then that he's gonna be marrying aria stark reek remembers her and thinks she is only a girl but he congratulates ramsey anyway because he doesn't want to lose any other parts yeah he's doing that performance of servitude but at least within like that interiority and those thoughts we see that there might still be some theon in there he's not completely lost or

mad as he fears he might be and he knows that it would be wrong for aria to wed ramsey because he's familiar with the monster that he is yeah and. And I mean, even with all that, that internal monologue we got where he's, you know, blaming himself and he's, he's sort of bought into the abuse and grooming that, that Ramsay has done. He still has this moment where like his first reaction is like, oh, whoa, no, this is bad. Like he, he still has that sort of core center deep, deep down when he's struck with the horror at the idea of Arya underfoot being wed to Ramsay Snolten. Yeah.

Yeah. So Theon's still in there. And I think that's the bit at the end of this chapter that finally comes back up more and more as the story goes on. Oh, Theon cares about the Starks. Theon loves the Starks. Oh, my God. Theon loves the Starks. Theon loves the Starks. Theon loves the Starks.

Yeah. It's that dichotomy of the remembrance, of the remembering of A, who he was before, Theon remembering Arya, the Starks, and all that time, and then having to remember what's been forced into him of Reek. There's all these things he's balancing. He promises to attend

the wedding. Nice. It's gonna be great. He RSVPs. It's going to be lit. Yeah. Yeah, for this, Ramsey is like, well, we'll clean you up for that. Maybe we'll feed you. Because, after all,

it has to look good when they head out to go get his virgin bride. Leave Jane Poole alone. The whole virgin bride thing at the end, I feel like it kind of comes back to eventually when ruse tells theon about how ramsay was conceived um and the whole first night type like the lord's right to a woman's maidenhood like that that that really totally fucked up thing is what the chapter ends on um yeah yeah it's fun stuff it's fun stuff all around

well now that i'm sufficiently depressed yeah yeah good morning before this was this has been a real wake-up call good morning oh my god Well, we couldn't have done this without you, Michael. Thank you for bringing your excellent voice, your reek voice. Oh, my gosh. Thank you for letting me do it. Yeah. A place to express yourself. Yeah. Exactly.

I don't get to do this, you know, very often. I just have to wait till I'm like all alone and I can sit in the house by myself. All right. Doing the reek voice. What? What? How many years had it been since he'd been reading this reek voice? 20? How many years had it been since he'd been reading this Reek voice?

Five years? Ten years? Does Mrs. Bookshelf know this? God. Looking over my shoulder towards the door. I think my Reek voice actually woke her up this morning. As I've been in here recording. Oh, God.

Well, tell us again where we can find you on the internet michael and any new stuff coming out for you of course yes so i am on twitter at bookshelf stud i am on maester monthly there should be a maester monthly out by the time you're listening to this and that will be the best of 2018 roundup which is quite a fun episode we have a new special guest one of the new mods and you can also find me gosh i don't know on youtube at bookshelf studios where i do have my of 2018 roundup, which is quite a fun episode. We have a new special guest, one of the new mods. And you can also find me, gosh, I don't know, on YouTube at Bookshelf Studios, where I do have my recipe videos, my recipe trilogy.

Go check those out. I'll teach you how to make pasta and oatmeal and water buffalo sandwiches. Yeah, no rats yet. I did get a request for someone. Someone left a comment asking if I can do a video

on how to make hot dogs without mustard. And I was like, sure, dude. I can do a video on how to make hot dogs without mustard. And I was like, sure, dude. I can do that, I guess. Well, we're awaiting that. Oh, thank you guys so much. Yeah.

Thank you. Thank you very much for joining us, Michael. It's always a blast. This was super fun. Yeah. Thank you guys. This is my worlds colliding. Yeah.

We'll do this again. Thanks, Michael. This is my worlds colliding. Yes. We'll do this again. Thanks, Michael. And of course, as always, you guys can catch us on social media at Girls Gone Canon on Twitter

or send us an email if you want at girlsgonecanon at gmail.com. And of course, be sure to follow us for all these chapters and for everything. Subscribe to us on Podbean, Apple, stitcher google play acas spotify all of these things and hey if you got some money rattling around in that wallet of yours check out our patreon we start our tiers at one dollar and up five dollar and up patrons get special episodes which this month we will be recording our third chapter of the dance of the

dragons. It is a three part or so far. We're hoping we ended at three parts, but we will see. Maybe it'll be seven, you know, like five. I think it's going to be a 27 part chapter episode of the dance of the

dragons. And of course we did just create a stretch goal on patreon we are close to hitting a thousand so once we hit a thousand we are going to do a live stream for vip members of patreon we're gonna make it like a party maybe vip members get the link and if you get in you get in you know yeah no you know it's vip experience so yeah pop in bottles. You can be on the list. The list. You can sit in the VIP area, the lounge-ish area, instead of being out there dancing amongst the unwashed masses. The pores. XOXO Gossip Girl.

I don't know. Oh, God. Yes. All right. Anyway, so thank you, of course, for joining us again. I have been one of your hosts, Eliana, also known as Glass Table Girl. And I have been been one of your hosts eliana also known as glass table girl and i have been another one of your hosts chloe you can find me on the internet as lies and arbor thanks so much you guys turning it topsy-turvy