Girls Gone Canon Cast - ASOIAF Episode 44 - A Ghost in Winterfell ADWD Ft. PoorQuentyn

Episode Date: March 22, 2019

Theon Greyjoy is haunted by the many ghosts of Winterfell, while a murderer is loose within the castle walls.  PoorQuentyn of NotACast and blogging notoriety joins us to discuss the killer, Lady Barbrey Dustin, and, of course, Stannis Baratheon. PoorQuentyn (Emmett)'s twitter:  https://twitter.com/PoorQuentyn PoorQuentyn's blog:  https://poorquentyn.tumblr.com NotaCast:  https://notacastasoiaf.podbean.com Eliana's twitter: https://twitter.com/arhythmetric Eliana's reddit account: https://www.reddit.com/user/glass_table_girl Eliana's blog: https://themanyfacedblog.wordpress.com/  Chloe's twitter: https://twitter.com/liesandarbor Chloe's blog: www.liesandarborgold.com 

Hello and welcome to episode 44 of Girls Gone Canon, a ghost in Winterfell, a dance with dragons. I am one of your hosts, Chloe. You can find me on the internet as LizaNArbor on Twitter, Tumblr, and LizaNArborGold.com at my blog. And I'm another one of your hosts, Alayana. You might know me as GlassTableGirl from the Saga of Ice and Fire subreddit, maybe on the Maester Monthly podcast, or as Arithmetric over on Twitter. And another person you might remember from before on our podcast,

we had him on during our Quintin episodes, and you should know him. He has done some great work in the community. We have poor Quintin here with us tonight. Thank you for having me back, O Girls Gone Canon. I appreciate the invite, especially to talk about our really great chapter,

and you guys have done great work so far on the Theon chapters both in Clash and Dance, so I'm happy to take part. Oh, that's some flattery right there. A little bit. The poor Quentin with his Theon series. If you guys haven't checked it out, you have to go on Tumblr. Emmett

Booth does some great essays on Theon. Any chapter in which Stannis is mentioned, you know, I'm going to show up for. Yeah, I kind of forgot about that. Oh, is that why you picked this one? No, he says. Yeah, it sure is. I mean, there were the previous ones, too. You could have had

any pick of the last two or three chapters, too, you know? Suddenly you understand how my mind works. But there was Stannis in all of those, so... I don't know. Stannis is, like, right around the corner, I think is the big deal, you know? Like, he's here. In his heart, in Portmanteau's heart. Yeah, here, in this room, with us.

Oh my god, Stannis is here tonight in his chilies. The real Stannis is the friends we made along the way. Like the Lord. Oh my god. Okay. Oh my god. Yes, so, of course, along with Stannis being in this episode, there is also a lot of other material, a lot of which is significantly more sensitive. We are going to be discussing issues of sexual assault and abuse in this episode. So please, if you are not comfortable listening to that kind of material, we encourage you to feel free to tune out and come join us another time this week we

are covering our ghost in winterfell next week is theon one in a dance with dragons and it's our last public theon episode but patrons five dollars and up can expect theon in the winds of winter coming to them very soon if you're interested in extra content like our winds of winter chapters barriston aria and sanza thematic analysis like our hallow Winter chapters, Barristan, Arianne, Sansa, thematic analysis like our Halloween special on identity, or our 800 episode series on the Blackwater, or our Dance of the Dragons series, and

a bunch of other fun perks if you climb up our tiers. Please check us out on Patreon, patreon.com slash girlsgonecanon. We're working toward a stretch goal to host a VIP livestream soon, the party of the century. So get that VIP status.

And of course, as all of you know, there is some exciting stuff coming up in the A Song of Ice and Fire and A Game of Thrones world. Yes, the first book. No, not the first book world. And we are also, of course, doing another POV after Theon. And no, it's not just going back to reek no it is going to of course

tie in closely with the storyline but we're we're gonna save ourselves for a bit yeah we're definitely going to save uh save that pov announcement until next week's episode beyond one so you guys will have to sit there very coldly waiting this one out. You know, for a long time. Yeah. Exactly. We also got some emails and tweets of note, particularly from our good friend Warren, a.k.a. the Hedge Knight at the moment, over on Twitter about Barbary Dustin and the discussion of her last time. Warren asks,

I've always felt there's a lot more to her than meets the eye. Her hatred of the Starks seems over the top and makes me query its sincerity. I have absolutely zero evidence, only what they call on cop shows a hunch, but I wonder when push comes to shove, will she prove more loyal to House Stark and its legacy than we are led to believe? I think it's primarily motivated by a sense that the lady protests too much. While, like I say, it's a hunch. I am curious to hear your thoughts. I love the way you're handling these chapters individually,

given how scarred freak is from his time with Ramsey. They're tough to read and merit individual consideration. I'm also beginning to wonder who the next POV is going to be. Thanks again, ladies for your hard work. It's always a pleasure to listen. This has been really, really fun having her in these chapters.

I don't know if I really always appreciated it before. And I think it's really cool that she has this like rebellion connection. We don't get a lot of rebellion connection, right? We don't really remember. I mean, her husband was with Ned at the tower of joy when Ned built those eight Cairns.

One of those Cairns was for Gord Dustin. Barbary's bitterness doesn't just stem from, like, the fact that she gave up that pussy for Brandon. Doesn't just stem from that. She was kind of put up like a mare from her family. Like, oh, go get with the Starks. Like, we want you to get with the Starks and bring home that gold. And there's a lot of parallels with Catelyn as far as the feudal society failing them,

as far as, you know, like, Barbary wanted to be with Brandon, but Brandon got promised to Cat because of this, you know, Southern Ambitions-esque type thing. And, you know, Cat losing Brandon and being stuck with Ned and Barbary being stuck with Lord Dustin. Ned, you know, ruining her life with her husband dying there. Just all this bitter pain. Really a bummer. Yeah, I'm kind of divided on this question. I do think there's more to Barbary than meets the eye.

I do think by the end of her story, she'll eventually have reconciled herself to House Stark and will allow Ned's bones to come home. I think that could be a very moving, perfect, encapsulating moment. But hating the Freys and loving the starks are not quite the same thing she can hate what happened at the red wedding and feel a strong sense of northern identity and ultimately want to overthrow the boltons but she's still feeling some pretty real raw pain over how stark has how how stark has treated her and her family and i think that's

an important perspective to show in a dance with dragons when you have all these other northmen cheering on you know ned stark's name and wanting to fight for his memory and overthrow the hated Boltons. I think it's important to have this complicated perspective in the same way that we're supposed to have a perspective on Tywin, where he spends most of his life as this horrible human being, but you still have Kevon who loves him deeply and advocates for him. And I think Martin wants to include those complicated perspectives. deeply and advocates for him and i think martin wants to include those those complicated perspectives yeah i think uh warren used this phrase uh the lady protests too much and i was discussing uh our previous episode a little with with your other wife yes go on and use similar language he used similar language um about yeah there's obviously more to barbara dustin than meets the eye she is definitely possibly a transformer and i i think that the fact that

we don't know and as you said there's that ambiguity of like what are her motivations to an extent like because yes she can dislike house stark but hate house fray and that comes through a lot in the chapter we're about to read is i think where chloe and i feel a little uneasy of like we don't have that payoff yet for her character so we're still a little on the fence about about her deal i think it's possible she might be interested in seizing power for herself in the North. She, like, Theon talks about how you could stand in Roose Bolton's way, and she's very pleased by that. She says, you know, as covered in the Prince of Winterfell chapter, if I were queen, this is what I would do with the maesters. So I get the sense that might be her ultimate goal, but I don't think that's, I don't think it's going to be carried out.

I think that might just be what she has in mind for now. We did talk again about how she's that bitter analog to what Jane Cool could have been. You know, I was never as pretty as Sansa, but they still said I was pretty. Barbary Dusty, the Lady of the North that never was. And that was just torn away from her with Brandon being promised a cat. It's a great parallel to John Connington, too, in terms of these bitter rebels of Robert's Rebellion. Bitter veterans of robert's rebellion i should say who lost the people they were in love with and are just kind

of devoted to getting that back in some way or getting back at the people who took it away from them it was a traumatic moment that none of them have really moved past and this is a random fact that i'm gonna throw in here did you know that another definition for the word cairns is a random fact that I'm going to throw in here. Did you know that another definition for the word Cairns is a Scottish terrier that has short legs, a long body, and a shaggy coat? So what if Ned Stark put little dogs? That's what I have to say. I know what I want to happen on Endgame. Yeah, a lot of the people.

A lot of the people in Robert's Rebellion you know that like they just haven't moved past it and we see so much of that in a song of a student fire it's like the driving motivation for like half the villains yeah absolutely look at bailish i mean just move the fuck on or jamie or barriston or garan martel or robert himself yep or yeah yeah so it's it's a broken it's a broken generation and it i want to see where barbara dustin goes with all that i am hoping that there is a payoff you know the manderleys like dustin have their own motivations you know they're not just propping up rick and out of pure loyalty he's the youngest right if they, they'd prop someone else up. Well, and for Quentin and I,

and that he's been out here, we were discussing earlier Hoomst! Hoomst? We were... That goes in. Earlier we were discussing offline, just discussing how I kind of think that

Rickon won't come back, and I think that it won't be that Rickon dies to our knowledge, but I think Davos will inverse Edric Storm and leave Rickon there because bringing Rickon back in the midst of all of this madness is, it's not right. All these Lords would seize him for power, right? Like they'd be using him for power.

Manderly and possibly Barbie Dustin faction would be using him for power right like they'd be using him for power manderly and possibly barbie dustin faction would be using him for power and he's better off in the wild with osha yeah davis is going to pretend that he's dead he's going to come back and say rick on stark i found his bones or something which there you go that's another very nice parallel to this right here with the miller's boys exactly and it's a great parallel to what john says about aria when he thinks that she's come on the gray horse before he learns it's alice carstark that he's going to send her away to bravos to keep her away from stannis and the game of thrones exactly it's brutal but yeah davos might make the same call and that would make rickon story a shaggy dog story but really kind of a moving one so i hope that happens

on to our current chapter as you all know there are things that happened in this story between the last chapter and this one so we're gonna go through our lightning yeah i'll kick it off with the king's prize asher grayjoy is brought to treat with stannis daenerys 7 the dornish faction including my poor son son, Quentyn Martell, reaches Daenerys too late, and she weds his Darzo Lorac on behalf of the people of Meereen. John IX, the Queen's party, arrives at Castle Black. Tycho Nestorce gets a tour. And then this girl, on a dying gray horse that maybe we just discussed, arrives. Blind Beth plays the lying game with Waif and learns to bag on the streets. She misses being cat of the canals, but deep her heart she's still a wolf girl and that brings us to the ghost

and winterfell it's a murder mystery in the winterfell express tensions rise in the ruined castles they wait for stanis meanwhile a man named reek prays to die as Theon. A dead man sits at the base of Winterfell's inner wall after he's found in the snow. The dogs find him and pull him out of the snow. Rizwell claims he was a drunk, pissing off the wall likely, but Theon doesn't feel so sure

about that one. If people can piss off the wall, the wall and not fall off, you know? Some foul play. I, some foul play. I suspect some foul play. The garrison, though, is eating stale bread in bacon grease and whisper about the body. One surgeon thinks that Stannis has men inside the castle. Which, not wrong.

I mean, exactly. You know, look at, uh, Manderly's gonna probably be taking Stannis' faction if it means restoring the North, so. It's a lot like the Blackwater in that way, where you had Antlerman and other Stannis loyalists inside King's Landing as he approached. Stannis might have, like, spies in there, but we've seen Stannis actually literally infiltrate another castle with like himself or whatever but another ruse rizwell thinks that he's snowed to death by now and then kirwin says like no way there's no way for us to know in the storm yeah the storm is insane there are ropes up to make sure that men don't get lost in that infinite way and ice grows over their weapons and their beards. Hostine Frey was heard to say he wasn't afraid of a little snow and then he loses an ear to frostbite.

Shit. Yup, bitch. So stupid at work. Kinda. The horses had it the worst. Oh, in the storm. Their blankets would freeze and then like melt from their body heat and they freeze again if they weren't changed in time.

And the warhorses were freaking out from the fire and only the ones in the stable as limited space as that is were safe. No, the horses. I know, I was sad about that. I thought about you. That's a parallel to Smiler, you know,

catching on fire at the end of Theon's storyline in The Clash of Kings. Always the horses suffer in Theon's chapters. Wow, you know, catching on fire at the end of Theon's storyline in The Clash of Kings. Always the horses suffer in Theon's chapters. Wow, you're right. I was also wondering about Hastine Frey. It was William Henry Harrison, right, the president who died after a month because he gave a big speech in

a snowstorm and refused to wear any hats or whatever because I'm just going to give this big presidential speech. That's Hastine Frey. Our shortest-lived, dumbest president. This entire illustration of the horses and just how miserable everyone is in winterfell it shows that like it's a slow painful march towards death this winter like the invasion of the others in the winter it's going to be devastating but not just because they're hardcore icy necromancer demons which yes they are but like it's how awful these winters are like they just slowly like ruin your horses your weapons fucking suck there's no food and it's

not all like sexy action sequences where you're fighting against everyone and everyone gets to like do cool moves and shit like many are going to fall and die without a battle like you don't get to die as like quote unquote a man as theon is talking about in later parts of this chapter but you're gonna just die like sleeping in the fucking snow or when the white like before the white walkers even come it's a great point you can see that in other parts of the series too like in a storm of swords with in sam's chapters you have the overwhelming presence of the army of the dead that attack the night's watch of the fist of the first men but you also have men dying just of the cold and starvation and

wandering off in fear and despair and you have the grounded elements combined with the really strong fantasy elements and i think we're going to see a lot more of that when we get to the actual long night and you have yeah you have plenty of people dying in direct contact with the others but also as old man's story said people starve with frozen tears on their cheeks and there's there's no grand romance or dramatic uplift in that story at all yeah we we were reminded of that last episode we chatted about you know the men that go out into the cold say they're gonna go hunting to bring food home and they go there to die just let their families have food yeah but another uh less survival focused moment this chapter is the politics of course and ramsey is busy ruthlessly punishing any men who speak of stannis and his red priestess in anything even neutral or above yeah like we see in this chapter

that there's a free rider who's like i don don't know, maybe it's warmer out there with Stannis. And when Ramsay hears that, they're like, that sucks. I don't like that. And they whip him bloody, then throw him off the walls of Winterfell, which they would, for obvious reasons, assume to kill a man. But because now that it's becoming winter, the snow is so high, the free rider actually- Is this foreshadowing? Of what? That he survives this fall? I mean, I can't imagine anyone is this foreshadowing what that he survives this

fall i mean i i can't imagine anyone in this story who does something i don't know what you ladies are talking about quite frankly i mean so yeah the thing is like george rr martin threw in this random detail about a guy jumping off a wall and surviving and it has nothing to do with the rest of the story and winterfell's gates are barred and they're ice shut oh my god they are they are ice that is the worst i don't know if you've dealt with that ever but having a car door ice shut in the winter oh that has happened to me many a time and it is uh back when i lived in michigan it was v sad v sad it's, but their gates are barred and their ice shut. Lord Stannis is lost in the storm, said Lady Dustin. He's leagues away, dead or dying. Let winter do its worst.

A few more days and the snows will bury him and his army boat. And thus as well, thought Theon, marveling at her folly. Lady Barbary was of the north and should have known better. The old gods might be listening. And indeed they are, as we will learn later in the chapter, when Bran speaks to Theon from the Weirwood. The old gods are very present in this chapter. And I like this conflict going on between the old gods and R'hllor for control of the north,

which we see elsewhere in A Dance with Dragons, like the sacrifice at Asha's chapter, and how the north men with their gods are constantly resisting the south run knights with their god and it's interesting that for the most part where lore is talked about by stannis's enemies as this like propaganda coup they can use against him like he's worshiping this horrible foreign god that demands sacrifice and can use that as to turn the small folk against him but it's also it's being used as a propaganda coup for him in this chapter because everyone's like oh he has this fire god on his side maybe

he can get through the snows maybe we're screwed and not him theon is eating peas porridge when one of abel's washer women touch him and then he like freaks out he's just reading don't touch me he says never touch me but you know it's a mood she's young and pretty with blonde hair and pouty lips and it's holly just like last week with the Rowan tree, I love that there is just this theme, right? This etymology of all these names, because there's Rowan, there's Holly, there's Squirrel, there's Willow, there's Witch Eye, there's Frenya, and there's Myrtle. Yes, I love that you've been, like, pointing these out, because it sparked an epiphany for me about how, like like all the names that you just

pointed out as well as like we also meet Gilly right from the Free Folk and Ygritte whose name is spelled a little differently but it sounds or looks like the word Ygritte which is a type of bird. Gilly's named after the ghillie flower. It gives you a bit of wildling culture showing you how they tend to name their people right after different things in nature in the same way that you have that consistency with the valerian culture with all of that a sounds the a the a names of course the etymology of holly's name is interesting once more because george is surrounding this with you know like kind of that martyr feel after we talked about the rowan tree last week holly berries in religious lore a lot of times

like in christianity they're originally white but christ's blood stains the berries red its leaves represent the crown of thorns that he wore before he died in celtic mythology the holly king is said to rule half of the year covered in holly bushes and leaves and he wields a weapon of a holly bush and it's also said to protect the home from fairies or to bring peace between the factions. The whole idea of the Holly King is kind of inclined for people to believe that he's supposed to be the Green Knight in Arthurian legend.

That's what he's based on. All these characters, the Rowan tree, the Holly, the sacrificial martyrdom kind of thing. And that fits Theon so well because he's being made in large part to suffer not only for his own sins, but all the sins of his people and all the kind of shame and anger that the Northerners feel in general about what's happened to them. And they just put it all on him. So yeah, I think that symbolism fits him perfectly.

Yeah, it's really great. And especially, yeah, again, with all that religious imagery. Holly wants Theon to show her the crypts and theon slash reek is like i know that abel sent her and is asking her what she wants and holly plays coy but theon's like i don't want anything to do with them and so he leaves the hall into the swirling snow perhaps inspired by that free rider earlier theon's like uh i kind of want to jump from the battlements and i know i guess i could break a leg like he did or maybe i'll even like die in the freezing cold and he thinks immediately that ramsey would hunt him down if he did survive and whispers instead of deciding to jump off the wall that i have to remember my name.

The next morning, Amy Spray's squire is found frozen and dead. Later, an archer from Flint's faction is found dead, kicked by a horse, Ramsay says, but Theon knows better. He thinks on how it's a mummer show that he knows. Bruce Bolton was playing the part that Theon had played the last time round, and the dead men were playing the parts of Agar, Ginyr Rednose, and Gelmar the Grim. Reek was there too, he remembered, but he was a different Reek, a Reek with bloody hands

and lies dripping from his lips, sweet as honey. Reek, Reek, it rhymes with sneak. Yeah, this is great, because you start seeing a parallel here, not only to Theon's former chapters in Winterfell and A Clash of Kings, which you guys covered, but also Arya's chapters in Harrenhal and A Clash of Kings, which also had this murder list going on with her and Jok and Hagar.

And what that suggests, I think, is that Winterfell has become like Harrenhal. It is this ruined, haunted castle now, covered in snow and full of conspiracies and death and this sense of decay. It's no longer the warm hearth and home that Theon and the Starks remember and cherish so much. We're seeing Winterfell through this kind of lens of cynicism

and downfall. And with Theon and Arya in a clash of kings, we were seeing those murders from the perspective of the one ordering the death. So you get questions of guilt and escalation and corruption. But this is different because our pov is not involved and doesn't really care so that's the overall mood that i really love about this chapter and theon's chapters and winterfell as a whole is we're seeing all these interesting factional fights in the struggle for control of the north but we're specifically seeing it from someone with no investment

who is kind of just so detached from it it's kind of like tyrian in dance where he's seeing the factions fight for control of essos but he's he's so outside it because he's so far gone by that point and i think this this functions as a great critique of all the sides involved here because we're more inclined to favor the stark loyalists over the boltons and while certainly stannis does a lot of horrible things, he's generally more favored by the fandom than Roose. But for Theon, Stannis is just another tormentor, and even the Stark loyalists hate him arguably more than even the Boltons do. Yeah, that's a great point. And there's a lot in this chapter that shows how too many people, not just Theon, the two are just different sides of the same coin.

I have a crazy tinfoil question do you guys think you know now that you're pointing out these similarities between the situation in heron hall and winterfell that like maybe ruse has brought a curse or something from being a lord of winterfell into a lord lord of heron hall into winterfell i mean he's carrying that curse from the red wedding everything he does is stained in blood oh that's true you're right because they they violated guest right it's so funny for someone so superstitious that he's willing to break all of these rules and he violated this guest right and now guest right is being violated in his new keep right so you look at these people dying you look at everything happening in winterfell you look at these people dying. You look at everything happening in Winterfell. You look at the Freys being murdered and put into these pies, you know, tinfoil. Or not so tinfoil as we know because the Rat King.

I mean, this is coming back to haunt him bit by bit. And now the ghost in Winterfell is picking off people bit by bit, you know. It does feel like the ghosts of the red wedding are here and are taking their revenge for sure and theon when he was feeling that huge guilt over what he did to the miller's boys back in cluster kings he had that vision of the red wedding of robin graywind coming in bleeding from half a hundred wounds and no one you know i've seen plenty of theories but no one can really explain in the fandom why or how theon had that vision but it's just it's there to make this connection i think you see the payoff for it here.

I think that's so interesting that you pointed out how a lot of this stems from his sins that he committed at the Red Wedding because I've seen people discuss the veracity of the claims that things like guest right or kin slaying actually have any effect because we don't necessarily see people suffer the consequences. But maybe we do, maybe we don't. maybe it's not the way we expect them,

and you can see that accursedness still following them subtly. Obviously, Roose Bolton has to die. I mean, that's going to happen. Ramsay has to die. The regime has to die. And especially where this chapter, I mean, we're about to get into where Barbary Dustin delivers one of the biggest lines that we've already heard when

we had Davos with Lord Manderly. You know, the North remembers. It's this bitter line. It's this defiant line. It's this, you know, you beat the North down, you murdered them. Like, all these people died because of the Red Wedding that basically helped happen.

You know, it's all gonna come crashing down eventually and this is all kind of that build-up like crescendo so you will chloe i have something for you i didn't put any quotes or anything this time crazy i just wanted to surprise you oh my god oh you're not even going to be prepared for what i'm going to surprise you with so i can't believe you're doing this too i was getting on oh but you're gonna be so pleased when i do this all right so i can't believe you're doing this too i was getting on oh but you're gonna be so pleased when i do this all right so i was getting on the bus the other day and thinking about ruse and ramsay and i was like thinking about how you know there are people who've talked about how

there are different acts right there's an act one two three or act one two three four five depending on like how you split the story and see certain plot points breaking down. And in Act 1, Joffrey is very much the villain, right? And the Red Wedding is, of course, a turning point for many in the storyline. And Tywin dies off. But we're introduced to Roose as a villain earlier than Ramsay. And his payoff, in many ways, is the Red Wedding, right? We start getting introduced to Roose in late game and then in A Clash of Kings. So Ramsay comes to the forefront as a villain in Dance, which means he comes in later than Roose,

which might actually mean that Roose's time is over. So, you know, I think what I'm trying to say here is like, what if Ramsey, what if Ramsey survives Ruth as a more of Act 2 villain because Ruth's time is up? Did you see that coming? So you agree. Yeah, I was saying structurally, I think. But what if, what if Chloe's right? That's going a little far, Leon. Next episode, there's something we're going to talk about even more.

And I won't really try to like pop a quote or anything but there's this moment where ramsey's arguing with his dad and dion can't make out the words but fat waldo's round pink face like is super fearful and it's just this moment where like there's this dread like what's happening the arguing doesn't look very good up on that dais and i'm that whole entire, the tensions, they start really escalating. And then next episode's going to be like, ah, ah, what's going to happen? Which we don't like.

Yeah, that's the money quote, I think, especially since that's the chapter where we learn that Farwald is pregnant. I don't think it's going to play out exactly like it did in the show, but that seems like a really strong setup. But yeah, as you say, that chapter has a lot of the payoff

for the dissension we see being sown here. Hostine Frey goes actively after M as you say that chapter has a lot of the the payoff for the dissension we see being sown here austin fray goes actively after manderly in that chapter but you see the anger building in this chapter oh so all this assentment that's being so they're starting to argue and fight because the deaths and lords like hostine want to take the battle to stannis and ruse rizwell does not agree right they keep sending people out who never come back, he says. And I love that little added note that George has that his name is Roose Riswell. It's the only other Roose in the story besides Roose Bolton. And it's a northern naming development.

It's really safe to say that Roose Riswell was named for Roose Bolton because he's probably Barbarie's youngest brother. for ruse bolton because he's probably barbary's youngest brother uh you look at roderick naming one of his sons ricard after you know selling barbary's vagina to brandon stark and i just love watching this come up like with the fray and targaryen names schemes uh it just the currying of favor and all that yeah i don't know if that really carries favor if you were just like oh you're too thirsty, or whatever. It's kind of suck-up-y, in my opinion. Yeah! Like, I'm not gonna name my daughter Eliana unless, like, I really, really liked Eliana.

I mean, it's fine if you do. Every time someone tells me that they're about to have a child or are pregnant, I'm always pushing, like, what if you named your kid Eliana? Oh my god. The tensions are raised in Winterfell and Manderly actually offers to ride out with Hostine and company, but then Hostine, surprise, turns on him. He's like,

where are my kin? They went to White Harbor and rode out from there and they're not here. Yeah, and he tries to act like it's some kindness. He's like, they brought your son's bones back but now they've disappeared. And then Manderly goes off.

I recall them well. Rhaegar of the Round Shoulders with his glib tongue. Bold so Jared so swift to draw his steel. Simon the Spymaster, always clinking coins. They brought home Wendell's bones. It was Tywin Lannister Yeah, they sure fuckin' did, Manderly. I gave your brothers guest gifts when we took our leave of White Harbor. We swore you and me to get at the wedding, many and more, but witness to our pardon. Yeah, they sure fucking did, Manderly.

You made sure of that. What a penchant for drama, like for dramatic flair. Manderly is such a drama queen. I love it. Why would Manderly is the best? You can just see everything he says in Theon's dance chapters. It's like, screw you all. I'm going down calling you out for all that you are.

And that is a glorious thing to see, especially since, you know, so many people have to hold their tongues around the Freys and the Boltons and the Lannisters at this point. So seeing Wyman sass the Boltons and the Freys, it's the same thing when Margaery says in Cersei's last chapter in Feast when she finally calls out Cersei as just being the horrible person she is. There's that great catharsis there with someone finally telling these guys off.

Yeah, they really, I'm surprised they didn't put Manderly in the show. He was perfect for these sorts of comebacks. He's so cinematic. I know. And like, as you were saying about how like all of his sass, I like how he, his way of describing each of these freys that were with him, he just like defines them by like literally their most annoying characteristics. Like he's like like that guy was a smart ass and that guy was like super aggressive and trying to fight off everyone that guy was super nosy and also he was

always clinking his coins and showing off his money like they sucked that doesn't help your case but he's totally like dressing the words up you know yeah and like diplomatically presenting them and dressing them up with lies and arbor gold but he's just like i ate your fucking kin and so did you he kind of reminds me of varus that way especially like when varus has his crocodile tears going and he's like oh i can't find tyric lannister who knows where that boy went i certainly didn't kidnap him get to wrecked uh yeah and it it goes back to what you were saying earlier chloe about like the sins again of the the red budding following them because this is that guess

right shit coming back round you don't fuck with the north man you just don't you know like you can get it over on them you can kill people off in the north that's cool you could stab rob stark at a fucking wedding feast at his uncle's wedding but that doesn't mean you're gonna get one over on the north in the long run for sure and it's so great because Godric Burrell in Davos' first chapter said Wyman Manderly's no true Northman not deep down the Manderlys are outsiders and

fakes they you know they're southerners who follow the faith of the southerners but this is Wyman proving himself the northern race of all Northmen it's awesome yep because when we were hungry you know and cold the Starks took us in. When we were sore, beset, and friendless, and hounded for our lives. Yeah, that's such great stuff. Exactly.

It's so, ah, so cinematic. I am so mad they left it out. Especially because they put him in with a really shitty, Jon Snow avenged the Red Wedding. He's the light. Look, what? Nobody did it. Literally, Ramsay Bolton did that. Ramsay Bolton fucking avenged the Red Wedding in the TV show Game of Thrones. That's canon. red wedding he's the white look what nobody did it literally ramsey bolton did that ramsey bolton

fucking avenged the red wedding in the tv show game of thrones that's canon so i don't know what the fuck that scene they added was they changed their canon and again who's the one rebuilding winterfell it's the bolton it's the boltons i don't i am a fucking bolton stannerman i don't know what you're saying so are you for bolton or Stannis? Our blades are sharp. Our blades are sharp. Our blades are sharp. How can you be both a Bolton and a Stannerman? As we see here, they are opposite.

They are different, Chloe, but also not too different. So Aenys implies Manderly is a murderer again. And Manderly puffs up. He's like, excuse me me how dare you in front of my salad in front of my salad Hostein challenges Manderly and Manderly booms with laughter and like a fight starts to break out it takes Lady Dustin and Roger Riswell to calm them down separate them ease the tension and this ties in with Theon's POV kind of outside the politics as we mentioned earlier we see all these factions going to war with each other, but our POV is not someone who's on any particular side.

This is very different from Arya's POV in Harrenhal, where she's defiantly a Stark partisan, even as she's gradually being shown that Stark soldiers are doing horrible things, too. She definitely wants one side to win this war, and Theon could not possibly care less. And we're going to get into a little later who the actual killers of these these dead men in Winterfell might be but I think it's probable that whoever it is they're definitely trying to cause this factional outrage and have people turn on each other in Winterfell at night the stable collapses from snow and they clean it out finding dead men everywhere and they kill the horses and as soon as they're done i know another is pronounced dead classic horror film vibes like we've been saying like very macabre very murder mystery

very noir as well the sense of you can't trust anybody and there's a killer around every corner there's that great line in clash which you guys covered where one of the ironborn tells theon look we're ready to fight anybody in battle but this weird suspense of anyone might kill us at any moment we're not trained for that. We can't handle that. Oh, yeah. And, of course, the person that dies turns out to be Yellow Dick, one of Ramsay's favorites. Yellow Dick!

Bruce tells the man, burn the body, and to never speak of it. Ramsay, though, betrays that easily, and he's like, it was my man, alright? This guy wasn't my friend. So he's super pissed. He's going around telling everyone like, I will flay the skin off him and cook it crisp as crackling and make him eat it every bite. Regarding the person who killed Yellow Dick.

Such subtlety and nuance in George R.R. Martin's villains, you guys. Yeah, but I mean, I think that what we're trying to see here is right, the humanity and like the heroism behind Ramsey oh my god our hero Ramsey

Bolton that's no a true born but as you said he avenged the Red Wedding so again as we'll discuss later who might be responsible for the killings I think it's worth noting that would be it would be symbolically compelling if women who describe themselves as, ironically, quote, here to be fucked, not feared, are killing a guy named Dick.

Yeah. Just putting that out there. Love it. Love it. I mean, if they're the washerwomen, they're washing Winterfell of all these, all this dirt. Oh, they're scrubbing it clean. Yeah. No scrubs.

By nightfall, the Great Hall is disgusting. is disgusting and there are men horses and there's like dog shit and human shit all kinds of shit all sorts of shit everywhere it's all in this room and along with that the cooks are now serving horse meat it's like fucking ikea up in here and onions and neeps for soldiers and lords alike. Yeah, it reminds me a lot of the situation in Meereen in A Dance with Dragons. This kind of chaos and everyone's kind of crammed in together. Tensions are rising. There's sickness. There's starvation. You're eating whatever you've got on hand.

As Eliana was alluding to earlier, this, I think, is Martin's presentation of humanity on the brink of winter and war and eventually the others. Like, this is the best it's going to be and it's only going to get worse from here. This is kind of basically just like the siege on storm's end again because i mean that was remember as we talked about last episode the fall spring ends and it's full-out winter for a fortnight or so you know it's straight up like a horrible winter for a few but stannis is on the outside

this time which is ironic the same thing that happened and actually it storms in in a clash of kings when he ended up on the outside of Storm's End. Well, it's funny because in a few chapters, I don't know if it was last chapter or the chapter before, Theon is thinking that yes, Stannis could do that to Winterfell, but he's also thinking that Stannis has less stores, and he's thinking, oh, we can starve Stannis out, but

everyone knows Stannis is willing to be starved out, right? He's willing to go down to the water. I'm pretty sure Stannis doesn't need food. I'm pretty sure Stis doesn't need food i'm pretty sure stanis like feeds on resentment and anger like i don't think he needs actual sustenance to survive mood as they say and by they i mean chloe but for me also like yeah i i think it's interesting because they're like trying to be like we're gonna siege the seizures but whatever that that sounds weird when i say it aloud actually when i say seizures aloud we're gonna siege the seizures but whatever that that sounds weird when i say it aloud

actually when i say seizures aloud we're gonna siege the people sieging there we go you're doing great thank you earlier in the chapter the common men were eating cheese porridge yeah and in this room where everyone's fucking nasty right like it shows that along with winter being this quiet killer and not just flashy stuff like winter is in many ways going to be the great equalizer in westeros because like they described the room as being like the reek within the great hall was palpable but even tied and so everyone's become the boltons play things but like when there are no resources everyone's fucking poor okay everyone's just got to eat what they got yeah that's why you see the clansmen doing so well on the march with stannis more so than the south run

knights with their fancy armor and all their stuff the clansmen do well because all they got is the their uh snowshoes and they're good to go and they have their small horses do better in the snow than the big horses apparently shaggy little ponies oh exactly unfortunately their horses are dwindling as well at wintertime as they had to slaughter those horses for food you know when they were half dying in the stables earlier beyond can't eat the horse meat because of his teeth so he's like just sucking the juice out of the tiny pieces after mashing up the onions and meats until they're basically edible. Yeah, he then feeds the bones of the horse meat to the dogs, the doggos. And then Grey Jane is super pleased.

She takes off with it and the other dogs snap at her heels. And I'm just like, the dogs are going to love him after that. The dogs are like the ray of light in Theon's very, very dark dance with the dragon storyline. Like, they're the only pleasant part. Like, they're not pleasant when they're hunting him and, like, the women, but... Oh, lord, no, good point. But, I mean, like, the fact that they love him and actually seem to enjoy his presence is very sweet. If love and hate can mate, the dogs can be both scary and the best.

Oh, my god. Nailed it. So, Abel plays through his entire set list Right Iron lances, winter maid, the queen took off her sandal The king took off his crown The bear and the maiden fair Yes I want lyrics to all these songs that don't exist

The bastard boys then threaten Threak Lord Ramsay means to cut your lips off When all this is done Said Daemon Stroking his whip with a greasy rag ew so gross don't cut yourself on all that edge reek thinks that he committed a crime by having his mouth between the lady aria's legs that he deserves that punishment that damon just talked about so he agrees with him that he should do that. It's just another example of that abuse and how that's warped Theon's mind,

because he's like, yeah, I deserve being punished for a crime that I was forced to do by the person who's doling out the punishment. What? No, no way, Theon. No. Outside, the snow was coming down so heavily that Theon could not see more than three feet ahead of him. Oh. Oh yeah. A soft song now, and sad. For a moment he felt almost at peace. Damn, there's some strong Sansa in Storm of Swords echoes right there. Oh yeah. Yes. Perfect world.

I don't belong here. But she stepped out all the same. Yeah. I also see Rob with those cold soft kisses on the snowflakes. Because I think, Chloe, you were talking about that last episode or something. Yes, absolutely. The innocence loss and all of that. So Theon comes across a hooded man out on the battlements, and the man calls him Theon Turncruise, Theon Kinslayer. He asks how Theon is still alive, and Theon replies the gods are not done with him yet, and Lord Ramsay is not either.

And the man laughs and leaves him be. And obviously, this is like a huge moment, and people discuss it all the time in the fandom, and we'll like get there, all right, we'll get there. But first, we're going to talk about how like, in this exchange, like it's a lot of what we've been saying since like the previous chapter and the ones before that, like this idea of the gods aren't done with Theon and neither is Lord Ramsay. It's equating both these gods and Ramsay. They're equal to Theon. And it has another meaning, of course, again, and we'll talk about it later on, in how we see Bran, who is now an old god, seemingly having a purpose for Theon. Yeah, that's the other big theme and kind of genre of this chapter. We've talked about the murder mystery trappings and how it's kind of horror and kind of noir, but

religion is really a strong throughline in this chapter you have ramsay as this punishing god whom theon thinks of as giving him his just due for his sins but that also kind of prevents theon from dealing with what he's done because he just gets to externalize it all onto what ramsay is doing and bran is this more savior figure who's offering theon a way out and stannis as we'll get into a into a bit is kind of this more ambiguous figure where he offering Theon a way out. And Stannis, as we'll get into a bit, is kind of this more ambiguous figure where he's a savior god to his men, but he's a punisher god for his enemies.

Theon can't see past the moat. He trudges through the snow. The world is gone. King's Landing, Riverrun, Pyke, the Iron Islands, all the seven kingdoms, every place that he had ever known, every place that he had ever known, every place that he had ever read about or dreamed of, all gone. Only Winterfell remained.

He was trapped here with the ghosts. The old ghosts from the crypts and the younger ones that he made himself. Micken and Farlin, Gnir Rednose, Agar, Galmar the Grim, the miller's wife from Acornwater, her two young sons, and all the rest. My word. My ghosts. They are all here. They are angry. He thought of the crypts and those missing swords.

Remember what Tyrion said after the Blackwater looking over the bodies. My work. They died at my command. And I love this that Theon is comparing his own sins and the people he's killed to the crypts and the old ghosts of Winterfell. Because again, that's so like Harrenhal, where we see this the horrible history and backstory of Harrenhal being folded into the modern day actions of characters

who are in charge of Harrenhal or pass through the castle. And you have these very personal ghosts for Theon. I love this imagery of the rest of the world vanishing and death creeping in from the outside. That fits Theon's arc so well of feeling like he's lost the world and lost his dreams and his future life. It fits with the imagery around Stannis. Again, this is a lot like the Blackwater when everyone is talking about Stannis as this coming death god to judge them all.

And of course it fits with the coming of the others that this is what it's going to feel like when the army of the dead arrives outside Winterfell. Yeah, Stannis definitely has that stranger kind of symbolism about him theon then reaches his chambers and he's ready to change out of the soaked clothing when steel shanks finds him and he takes theon to bruce and the other lords and then the northern factions like oh see ya maybe you killed everyone it's like yeah oh you have the motive what what the fuck like lady dustin makes him remove his gloves to reveal his missing fingers and that ramsay did

this to him despite fiance protests that it was his choice amy's phrase still tries to push this whole oh it's you that killed the people but barbary laughs and she's like dude he can't hold a dagger like what what are you saying are you drunk yeah yeah anus yeah yeah anus yeah but exactly you that's the joke good job on it poop hole okay i'm done oh my god anyways but it's just like so everyone knew so this whole time in these past few chapters right so everyone like just knew just baffles me that everyone knew that underneath the gloves he was missing fingers anyway and they thought like by booking him as the killer that would help them like the killer would still be out there even if you want to blame it on theon and that's where the whole idea of political stuff comes in like they don't want people to freak out they need everyone to stay calm like ruse and ramsey are

holding on to this goddamn faction like by a string they need everyone to stay calm. Like, Bruce and Ramsay are holding on to this goddamn faction, like, by a string. They need everyone to stay fucking calm. And this is not what they need. Like, just like Bruce was going around. They need a scapegoat, and Theon is very convenient for that because everyone already hates him. And that would be especially useful for Aenys Frey,

because the murderers have got to be under his collar more than anybody because he knows how unwelcome he and his family are in the North. He and Hostin clearly know that Wyman had their kin killed. They don't know about the pies, but they know who did it. So they would love if they could just pass off this thing that's bothering them onto this one pariah whom everyone already hates. Well, and you see Roose earlier in the chapter, you know, trying to hide the death of Yellow Dick. So now this is happening and they're just trying to hide the death of yellow dick so now this is

happening and they're just trying to find a way to keep everyone calm and keep the alliances secure yeah that's a great point yeah and and so we have then roger riswell agreeing they're like yeah i don't think the ons are killer he can't do anything and then they're like it's an inside man a stannis accusations shift to manderly and barbary agrees that he totally has beef with the regime citing he lost kin at the red wedding but she reminds them that so did everyone else that's here which is such a badass moment the sir wins the tall hearts even umbers she points to horsebane roger backs her up and he's like, yeah, House Rizwell lost as well. And then Barbie drops the most badass line. Even Dustin's out of Barrowton.

Lady Dustin parted her lips in a thin, feral smile. The North remembers. Ray. What, what? Airhorns! I was waiting for you to do the air horns I got that yeah it's great I love that line

that she had a feral smile so cute so cute I don't know if that's quite the right word but sure it's cute to me alright it's art subjective just like you know whether or not Quentin's alive we're editing that out get out

my podcast now you're the emmet that is in here i'm the actual limit yeah like it's great that she drops that line because we've seen it already throughout dance with dragons and associated obviously with people who seem to be on one side of the line and like i have many thoughts on the north remembers in general as a phrase, but we'll talk about them some other time, another time, another episode. And, you know, as Warren was talking about earlier, as some of our other friends have discussed, like we get hints at Dustin's other purpose and motivations here.

And I do love what she says about horsebane, that he would pull out your entrails and make you eat them the umbers are always in the background as like even the other northerners go like we might be we might be tough and badass but the umbers scare even us they always make a great use in scenes that way and yeah I do love the accusation that it's an inside

man of Stannis' guys if Stannis wants someone dead he sends a horrifying shadow demon he doesn't hire an assassin the man the man has an aesthetic to keep up yeah he's gonna skeet his own assassin you know true that okay sorry everyone so he awakes at the hour of the wolf and he hears the horn it hangs above the battlements and moves through winterfell followed by whispers of stannis. Boom-doom, boom-doom, boom-doom. And a name passed from the lips of each man to the next, written

in small white puffs of breath. Stannis, they whispered. Stannis is here. Stannis has come. Stannis, Stannis, Stannis. Emmett, down boy. I wasn't mouthing that along with you. Oh my god. I knew you were

I could hear you oh my gosh yeah I'm gonna give a really quick thought here then step aside that like the onomatopoeia is kind of fun that boom doom I don't know if it's a little heavy handed but it's cute just like Feral Smile it's very Lord of the Rings-y it's very the Minds of Moria

which Martin has drawn from a couple times all right go on this is so great i i i really just love this it's such a perfect inversion of what happened at the wall at the end of storm of swords when stannis's knights ride over the wildling camp yelling stannis stannis stannis you know it was his own men crying his name thrice then and it was joyfully and now it's his enemies and so they're whispering his name thrice in fear as we were saying earlier stannis is the stranger he was a stance who directly compared stannis to that in clash of kings he's an avatar of dread for his enemies you can see that in book one with tywin when he's saying that stannis is always the one he thought was more dangerous than the rest of his enemies combined and the back you back to see that backed

up with theon when you get to his released winds of Winter chapters you guys are going to be talking about soon. He says to himself, he's just traded one tormentor for another when he winds up in Stannis' camp. Because as far as he's concerned, Stannis is just another abuser. And that dovetails with the prologue to this book from Varamur Sixkin's perspective when he talks about how all the wildlings fled from Stannis' camp. And that's the flip side to Stannis' glorious victory. Like, yeah, he was saving the Night's Watch and coming to defend the North and doing a better job as king, but functionally speaking, he was still overrunning a refugee camp. So I think this is all part of how Martin is constantly making the case for and against Stannis, often at the same time.

He shows you why the men who follow him do, but also why his enemies are so freaked out by him. Yeah. But hey, at least people are taking him seriously. He wanted that, right? But I think deep down he wants to be admired and loved. Deep down he wants Robert to come back to life, clap him on the shoulder and say, you did good. And then Stannis can die happy. That's really what he wants.

That is what he wants. Oh, brothers. That's really what he wants. That is what he wants. Oh, brothers. Well, unfortunately, Theon knows better, and he thinks no one's going to win in any of this. Stannis is aligned with Jon, another bastard who could as soon see and want Theon dead. Plucked from the clutches of one bastard to die at the hands of another. What a jake.

Interesting that- Oh, Ellie. Oh, hello. It's our other host. It's our producer slash host. It's our executive producer, Ellie. She just woke up. She's the owner of this podcast. Yeah, she's literally our- She's the CFO. She gets 60%

of the- Shareholders. Proceeds. No wonder she's so fat. It's interesting that Theon thinks Jon would hurt him. Yeah. Yeah. As I was saying, it's great how Theon views these factions. Like, we're inclined to see Jon positively for the most part,

but for Theon, he's just another enemy who would punish him as soon as Ramsay, and that's an important perspective. Again, similar to Tyrion, where he's seeing all these factions in Essos from a very jaundiced, cynical perspective. Jaundiced? Compare with Theon. Ah, I get it. Compare what Theon says here. Baratheon or Bolton, it made no matter to him.

That's very similar to what Jon says in his fourth chapter. Baratheon or Bolton should be the same to him. That's very similar to what Jon says in his fourth chapter. Baratheon or Bolton should be the same to me. But in Jon's case, he's lying to himself because he's telling himself, oh, you should stop advising Stannis and stop helping him to win the war. These should be the same to you. You're in the Night's Watch. But they're not. Because for Jon, quote, Stannis fights for the realm. And while he's not all down

with the whole burning people alive thing, as he shouldn't be, he repeatedly intervenes on Stannis' behalf and he has warm feelings about the king marching on winterfell to save aria but for theon stannis is just another angry violent man with a sword fucking up his day he's not the messiah he's not quote a king who still cared as sam called him he's just an asshole who hangs him off the wall for sure and in some ways i guess that makes theon a little closer to that perspective of not all,

but some of the small folk who are just like, I don't know, there's just like these people like fucking fighting around here and we're caught up in it. For them, it's like, who cares? But I think there's also something interesting here that ties into the ways that the story shows similarities between Ned and Stannis. Like, obviously, you know they're both kind of a sullen middle sons but also of course stannis is the king that ned supported and while i think stannis is portrayed more as this idea of justice or just depending on whatever your skill that is as opposed to merciful which is ned um even though you know like stannis isn't known for his mercy like

he's kind of playing that in between role for Theon right because in a way Stannis is in this in between space where he's portrayed as both Theon's salvation but also his imprisonment same as it was for Ned where Theon was like this

ward hostage he's both the end of theons a dance of dragon art a dance with dragons art has so much with that like no chance no choice for yen art you know it's it damned if you do damned if you don't either you're gonna die flayed by the boltons or you're gonna die beheaded by stannis what's the difference at this point going to die beheaded by stannis what's the difference at this point and i think you're right eliana in so many ways stannis is cast as this darker version of ned you see that in his introduction in clash of kings where we've just lost and it's dark and now we see this kind of version of him that's much sourer and without mercy and and focused on his resentments and yeah well stannis is technically the savior fixture figure structurally here in

that if theon wants to escape the boltons stannis is pretty much his only chance of doing that it's yeah it's not like theon cares about stannis's cause or has any reason to invest in it or is treated better at the end of the day so there's drumming outside the walls and then a flint asks uh so that guy stannis that we've just been talking about, does he mean to blow the walls down? And jokes that maybe Stannis thinks that he's found the Horn of Joramun. That's almost like Martin wants to keep this horn thing in line.

There's a horn? What horn? Why do we need a horn? We have a whole ice star again. The idea of Stannis wanting to bring down the walls of winterfell and of course that reminder as you said of the horn of jormund it's all like kind of since we're talking about religion in this episode i'm not going to go into too much depth but it reminds me of that story of joshua and the battle of jericho yeah those walls are tumbling down yes maybe we should sing that like when it happens i don't know whatever the books okay

and then someone is out here being like well though stannis can't because stannis is no robert which i'm like damn like if stannis heard you saying that he'd probably like i don't know crumple on the floor and cry but like that's one way to rub salt in the wound. He'd probably stare out of the window. That's the great thing. Even when he shows up at the wall, as I was just talking about, his big triumphant center stage moment. Even then, for a second, Jon thinks it's Robert. Because he sees the banner.

He's like, what? It was Owen, right? Did Robert show up? So even then, Stannis is still in Robert's shadows. It's the greatest thing. And even this, it's actually not him outside the walls. That's actually Mors Umber. They're just all assuming it's Stannis.

Afray suggests riding out to meet Stannis, and Theon is like, yes, do it. Leave me alone in Winterfell with my goddamn ghosts. Do it. Theon thinks Roose would welcome this as well with a castle too full of Northmen who only are following him for Arya who want to murder the shit out of the Boltons he wonders if he should go out and fight as well you know to die a man

something Ramsay wouldn't give him but Roose might that was the sweetest deliverance he could hope for that hurts Theon then makes his way over to the god's wood and in the god's wood there's a there's this fog and it's like warm and there's a steam in the pools like maybe it's the only warm place in winterfell and theon has it all to himself but like that fog is it is it fog is it is it gray i i don't know what tell me tell me is it tell me about is it gray mist maybe is it that maybe oh okay well interesting interesting i mean i mean

just curious is it is it is it you tell me the night was windless the snow drifting straight down out of a cold black sky that the leaves of the heart tree were rustling his name. Theon, they seemed to whisper. Theon. The old gods, he thought. They know me. They know my name. I was Theon of House Greyjoy. I was a ward of Eddard Stark, a friend and brother to his children. Please, he fell to his knees, a sword, that's all I ask, let me die as Theon, not as Reek. Tears trickled down his cheeks, impossibly warm. I was an ironborn, a son, a son of Pyke of the islands.

A leaf drifted down from above, brushed his brow, and landed in the pool. It floated on the water, red, five-fingered, like a bloody hand. Bran, the tree murmured. They know, the gods know, they saw what I did. And for one strange moment, it seemed as if it were Bran's face carved into the pale trunk of the weirwood, staring down at him with eyes red and wise and sad. Bran's ghost, he thought. But that was madness. Why should Bran want to haunt him?

He had been fond of the boy. I'd never done him any harm. It was not Bran we killed. It was not Rickon. They were only Miller's sons from the mill by the acorn water. I had to have two heads else they would have mocked me, laughed at me. They... A voice said, who are you talking to? Theon spun, terrified that Ramsey had found him, but it was just the washerwomen, Holly, Rowan, and one whose name he did not know.

The ghosts, he blurted. They whispered to me. They know my name. he blurted. They whispered to me. They know my name. So the Winds of Winter Theon chapter and the Battle of Ice were originally in A Dance with Dragons, but they were cut after the sacrifice. By the time we get to the Winds of Winter 1, Bran has been in the cave with Bloodraven for at least a year and a half, if not two, learning everything he can from the Weirwoods and from Bloodraven. So we can kind of assume the first Bran chapter is going to lead at least toward the destruction of the cave, or at least a way for Bran to get out of the cave. It's either probably going to happen in Bran 1 or Bran 2.

I expect it to speed along pretty quickly, considering how much they have to cover. The death of the mentor has to happen, obviously, right? For each and every one of these starts. And Bran should probably kill the boy. Bloodraven is that first stroke to that. We see his powers have progressed here,

and we've been noticing it through the chapters. Bran's actually speaking to Theon through the Weirwood, and he has been this entire time. We also can assume Bloodraven's still kind of in the picture, because Melisandre 1, we have that vision where she sees them but as we keep going through a dance with dragons it feels like bran is more in control than ever

before so blood ravens shrinking from a supervision more and more and more and there's that line above the they know the gods know they saw what i did and bran's ghost he thought but that was madness why would bran want to haunt him? Like we've been talking about, there's this talk of worship and gods in A Dance with Dragons, and Stannis is Davos' salvation and god, as we said. Ramsay has forced Theon to believe in him as his, and he thinks the gods know what he did. The idea we keep mentioning of Bran and Bloodraven as the old gods or as a carnation of their power, it's an interesting extension to this theme.

This scene is really the heart of this chapter, and I think is the reason everyone loves this chapter so much. When we were building up to this episode and you guys were announcing it, a lot of people were saying, oh, that's the best chapter in Dance, and I think this scene is why. Because it's this catharsis, this moment of oasis in the heart of Winterfellic chaos and the just horror of Theon's arc. What Bran is offering Theon as a god figure is something that Ramsay won't offer him, that Stannis won't offer him, that the Northmen loyal to the Starks won't offer him, and that's mercy.

And mercy is what Theon needs. That's not the same as wiping away what he's done and won't substitute for him dealing with what he's done, but he's not in a mental or emotional or even physical position to do that at this point. So what he needs is to be treated like a person. He needs for someone to say, no, you have to live. There is worth in you yet. And without Bran reaching out and calling Theon by his name here, would Theon have the courage to take that leap to faith with Jane Poole in his next chapter? I think he might not have. Yeah. I mean, Theon hasn't like fully i guess done confession yet he's in like owned up he's like i didn't kill brandon rick and like those were the miller's sons i'm like no those were those were those were children too but you know there's so much about religion

in these chapters and i think there's a great parallel we see to Theon's uncle, Arryn, who in A Feast for Crows has chapters that are referred to as like the prophet by these chapter titles. And I think there are many ways in which Theon and Arryn's stories are similar. We've touched on some of those before, but like they both have these big encounters with the main villains in the story, or not main villains, but very very big villains and especially endure torture. Some of these, of course, are in Wyn's chapters. And Arryn's storyline has religious overtones, whereas with Theon's, we see them as more of like undertones in moments like these. But at the end, I think Theon feels a little like a prophet in some of these ways, or a disciple, like hating the old gods and by that we

mean Bran his calling because he persecuted the Northmen in some ways and of course Bran and Rickon and it kind of reminds me of when Saul in the bible was you know persecuting Christians and then he has this this moment on the on the road and there's a whole scene where the lord appears to him in the way that Bran is doing so through the rearwoods to Theon and he's like Saul Saul why do you persecute me I am Jesus whom you are persecuting and then Saul undergoes a huge change and converts and becomes Paul and we have a name change also of course with Theon he becomes Reek and then comes back to being Theon and he's like converted from being this ironborn and kind of like being a shitty

believer in the drowned god he's like um he's a secular-ish ironborn and kind of like being a shitty believer in the Drowned God. He's a secular-ish believer in the Drowned God and then becomes a sort of born-again follower of the old gods, whether or not he's really praying to them, but he's doing their will. That's it. I think that's a great point. You see a lot of those religious themes across the Greyjoys as a whole.

We also have it with Victarion, who engages with these themes in a more kind of satiric way. We're just like, one gods, two gods, why not? Oh my god. All the gods. Victarion. They're all my friends. And there's not quite the high drama you see, I think, with Theon and Aeron. And I think, yeah, once you get to the Forsaken, Aeron's release chapters from the Winds of Winter,

I think that's definitely Martin taking a lot of the themes and imagery from Theon's dance chapters and putting them in, as you say, a more explicitly religious context, a more explicitly magical metaphysical context. Whereas in Theon's chapters, it's more under the surface until you get to this godswood scene, which is really kind of where it comes into the open.

Yeah. Especially with that fog there. That gray mist. That gray mist. That gray mist. The washerwomen laugh at Theon for needing two heads, whatever that means, basically, to them, which we know they do not. They think he's babbling and he's just crazy talking.

And they cut right through his arc, which I love. We've been talking about all this drama and Theon's painful identity struggle, but for them, it's just absurd. Oh, they would have laughed at you. That's why you killed children. That's why you had to have heads. That was your motivation.

It's a nice little kind of meta moment. It's like as close as we are to Theon, as much as we want to see him get better. Yeah. There is that recognition that his motivations in class were really, really cowardly. And he still hasn't atoned for that. He internally hasn't really realized, like, that was stupid. He hasn't realized, as you say, that the

Miller's boys were still children and that, oh, they weren't Bran and Rickon. Yeah, they're still humans. He still has to get through that. And I hope, in the same way that I hope Jaime has to confront Bran in some way, I hope Theon has to confront this in some way. Yeah, it's, also there's that whole idea, idea like he thinks about the washer woman as whores. He doesn't think sex workers is nicely of them.

He thinks they're just like gross whores that follow people around. That's pretty much what he says and thinks. And it's like, OK, well, you're not. You haven't changed, you know, like this is the ghost of Winterfell past. And we are showing you like, ah, you can change Theon and he's not changing. Yes. And so, of course, that means that the washerwomen mock him and they like kind of seem to threaten him. And in exchange, Theon is just like, all right, well, then just kill me.

They deny then his accusation that they are the ones who have been killing all the people in Winterfell. He's like, kill me, kill all them. And then they just make fun of Theon's torture and say like, all right, Theon, we're going to give you what you want. You can die as Theon. But first, we got to get you to sing a song for Abel. song for Abel. Yep. If he wants to die, he will get his death,

but first, Abel needs him. Yeah. And that's where the chapter cuts off, which is a great ending, but I also really would have loved to see that scene with Theon and Mance. I get why we don't, but I would have loved to see it. Yeah, it gives too much away. Ah. Just like Coachella. Exactly.

Is that not what the sceneella. Is that not what this is? Winterfell right now is Fire Festival. Stop. Oh my god. Snow Festival. Ice Festival. This chapter is great because

it's one of those chapters that has a title that is not Theon, not Reek. It is A Ghost in Winterfell. It's kind of got that double entendre. Theon is obviously the ghost in Winterfell currently, seeing all of his ghosts and just, you know, existing. However, the

idea of the secret killer on the loose is the other ghost in Winterfell. So, I'm not really, like, I don't subscribe to any one theory i've kind of pushed the side of the washerwoman i guess but what do y'all think who's that ghost in winterfell killing people off yeah yeah chloe that yeah i mean that was gonna be my joke you know theon's the ghost of winterfell and all these ghosts here but like i don't know i like you i don't really know or care who the serial killer is yeah it's not fun i know girls gone indecisive more like um it's just not something i really

i don't know a lot of people think it's like a crazy secret and i don't i just think uh that you know they're killing off people that suck i think it's more girls gone indifferent yeah okay okay that's that's fair i yeah i agree i don't really think it is supposed to be a mystery i think it's pretty clearly the spearwives they don't really actually deny it here what what holly says is how could it be us we're women teats and cunnies here to be fucked not feared that seems more like a confession to me like yeah we did it no one's ever going to suspect us because they think of you that they think of us the same way you think of us as just whores following you around and then when you get to the next chapter and little walder is killed and theon accuses them they very specifically freak

out and say not him we didn't kill him they don't deny the rest they specifically deny killing the child because that would make them the same as him arguably in terms of killing a kid so i i think it was the spear wives trying to cause that factional infighting because that would make it easier for mance's somewhat nebulous plan yeah i think you uh sold me on that i'll take that all right we did it um but yeah there's a lot when you read this chapter that that points to the spearwives as you were saying it's i don't know like you said they're just like how could it be us and we are like we know that they're spearwives right they don't fucking wash things like they might even be really bad at washing things right that probably happens they're like oh we can't we don't know how

to deal with this part of our job we're just here for assassinations yeah like drink which makes them real really badasses i think they're underrated characters the spearwives like this with this part of our job. We're just here for assassinations. Which makes them really badasses. I think they're underrated characters, the spare wives. This is an intensely courageous mission to take on here, and they do it without flinching. Oh yeah, absolutely. True. The wildlings are

hardcore. They really are, though. They really, truly are. I mean, they're living up north, and they're just trying to live, man. Well, hey, that was a chapter. That was a hell of a chapter. And I'm really glad we had you on with us, Emmett. Thank you for coming on with us.

Thank you for having me. It's a terrific chapter. Definitely one of my favorites. And I was glad to discuss it with you, too. Yeah. And please do us all a favor. Remind everyone of where they can find you, your podcast, and your wonderful blog. Yeah, who are you?

Who am I again? So I'm also on Not A Cast, a podcast I do with Brendan Befish, aka Jeff Hartline. We're going through A Song of Ice and Fire one chapter at a time in the old-fashioned stuffy normal way instead of jumping around between POVs like you do.

We are currently about three quarters of the way through the first book we just covered a denaris six when she has the assassination attempt in based earth rock we're coming up on ned's last chapter in the black cells the wisp battle of the whispering wood and the green fork ned's execution all that good stuff so check us out if you haven't already you can listen to us on podbean, on SoundCloud, on iTunes. Check out our Patreon at patreon.com forward slash notacastasoiaf. You can get exclusive episodes and early releases, show notes, and a lot more. Or you can just follow us on Twitter at notacastasoiaf. Shoot us an email at notacastasoiaf at gmail.com.

More personally, you can find me at PortQuentin on Twitter or at portquentin.tumblr.com. more personally you can find me at poor quentin on twitter or at poor quentin.tumblr.com as always you guys this has been great you can check us out on social media if you haven't on twitter at girls gone canon or you could pop us an email if you so feel obliged at girls gone canon at gmail.com yes and of course stay tuned with us and you can subscribe to us on itunes on google play on acast on sitcher on spotify on podbean where we upload all the things yes absolutely we've got lots of places to check out and of, as we mentioned earlier, we are working towards that stretch goal of hitting $1,000 to do a live stream for VIP patrons

and anyone that, you know, shows up. You know, it's going to be a party. Check us out at patreon.com slash girlsgonecanon. We have a ton of stuff in the works coming up. We're not announcing it yet, but there is just, there's lots. We got lots going. We're really excited about our spring schedule and can't wait to share that with you guys. So as always,

I am Chloe, one of your hosts. You can find me on the internet as Liza and Arbor or at lizanarborgold.com. And I'm Eliana, another one of your hosts. And again, you might know me as Glass Table Girl. Thank you everyone for joining us this week and thank you again to emmet other person with a name that begins with letter e to other emmet this guest thank you other other emmet thanks for coming on you're very welcome