Girls Gone Canon Cast - ASOIAF Episode 46 Jon AGOT Intro/I

Episode Date: April 5, 2019

Robert's retinue reminds Jon that bastards will never be royals... until, well. But before all that happens, Jon's story starts with a tempting offer followed by advice of armoring himself in who he is. ---- Cited: Chloe's essay on Jon accepting his parentage - https://liesandarbor.wordpress.com/2018/12/04/jon-accepting-his-parentage/  Intro by Anton Langhange   Eliana's twitter: https://twitter.com/arhythmetric Eliana's reddit account: https://www.reddit.com/user/glass_table_girl Eliana's blog: https://themanyfacedblog.wordpress.com/  Chloe's twitter: https://twitter.com/liesandarbor Chloe's blog: www.liesandarborgold.com 

Hello and welcome to episode 46 of Girls Gone Canon. John, intro, and chapter one, A Game of Thrones. I am one of your hosts, Chloe. You can find me on the internet as LiesInArbor on Twitter, on Tumblr, and at my blog, LiesInArborGold.com. And I am another one of your hosts, Eliana. You might know me as GlassTableGirl on the A Song of Ice and Fire subreddit, maybe on the Maester Monthly podcast, or as Arithmetic on Twitter. We made it.

Was that like Dani's title or what? Was that your face? Is that why you made the face at me? Because I was reciting my titles? I'm still excited every time you say lies in the arbor.com. Hey, I'm going to put a new blog post up soon, I'm hoping. That is exciting. What's really meta is that we're going to be stuck on Jon for a long time.

Yeah, it's going to be like a couple of months. This is our longest POV yet. Not to mention one of the longest POVs in the entire series. I believe our good friend Warren Dudson sent us a message telling us who... Yeah, Tyrion has the most chapters at 49, and then it's Jon, and Arya has 34, even though she's in every book. Yeah, that is pretty interesting.

I guess because Jon and Tyrion, to some extent, being more connected with some of those main plots, are there for a lot of the driving forces within the storyline whereas aria storyline is just a little more removed yeah and we're gonna be on john for 20 to 25 episodes probably somewhere in that range uh so 20 to 25 weeks half a year almost uh so that's it's not bad i think we're hopefully not gonna have to do too crazy, but if we got to go longer, we got to go longer because it's our boy. Got to give it up for Jaboy. Jaboy.

John Boy. John Boy. Boy John Boy. Boy John Boy. John Ball John. Anyways. It's going to be- Prisoner.

It's going to be really exciting, though, to contrast John's storyline. It's going to be really exciting, though, to contrast Jon's storyline. I think we talked about this before, but it's still exciting for me to see how it's going to go in Game of Thrones for him and be in his chapters. Yeah, it's really exciting to be on Jon's chapters during show season for sure because of that. Because the whole time we're just going to be reflecting on where our baby boy was and where our king is now. Yeah, what a glow up. What a glow up. The biggest glow up from John 1, today's episode, to the finale of Game of Thrones Season 8, whatever happens. Mediums.

Whatever happens. Yeah. But we've missed a lot between John and his birth, his very important birth, which is so funny because to go forward, you must go back, especially with John. To get to John being born and being the savior, we have to go all the way back

to when Ned came home from war in 283-284 with baby John Snow on his hip. He shows up, he won't speak about John's mother, and John and his wet nurse end up taking up residence in Winterfell before Cat and Rob come home from Riverrun, his true-born son. Indeed.

That must have really pleased Catelyn, and by that I mean probably not at all. And it probably won't, you know, frame all of Jon's chapters with all of his issues from when he was young. I mean, it's not like I do that with my entire life, you know? Yeah. I mean, we all have abandon I do that with my entire life, you know? Yeah. I mean, we all have abandonment issues. Grow up, Eliana. And speaking of growing up, John grew up in Winterfell,

and he was seen as the rumored byproduct of Ned and Ashara Dayne. There were whispers all throughout Winterfell about it. It had taken her a fortnight to marshal her courage, but finally, in bed one night, Catelyn had asked her husband the truth of it, asked him to his face. That was the only time in all their years that Ned had ever frightened her. Never ask me about Jon, he said, cold as ice. He is my blood, and that is all you need to know.

And now I will learn where you heard that name, my lady. She'd pledged to obey. She told him. And from that day on, the whispering had stopped and Ashara Dayne's name was never heard in Winterfell again. Yeah, Ashara Dayne was basically used as a quote unquote purple herring for Jon's parentage, especially around Winterfell. Ned never said no. Ashara wasn't the mom, but he never said yes. no, Ashara wasn't the mom, but he never said yes. And of course, had Jon come out looking a little bit more like one of his birth parents, he may just have had the purple eyes that House Dane carries. So Ashara was a great scapegoat for that at her own mercy. And that was uncool,

but we will get to that another day. Oh, definitely. We've got lots to talk about there. And of course, this upbringing for Jon and the silence around his mother affects both Catlin and John differently. For Catlin, the silence makes her think that Ned must have loved John's mother fiercely. Not untrue. He did, in fact, love his sister Liana fiercely. Just not like that. Apparently that's like a theory people have. But there was also the theory i'm gonna throw this

out there now that we're talking about john and kat there's a theory way back then after the first book that john and katlyn would have sex yeah glow ups guys and oh my god whose kink is this i am kink shaming you on the podcast i don't know whose it is but it existed this is like the rule 34 sounds just like what someone who was into it would say this is the rule 34 of um what is this called what is this book that we read a song of ice and fire

but the kinks we made along the way me and you we have to record this episode Eliana us the entire episode. Unable to. But Ned's silence around Jon's mother affects him a little differently because for him, he internalizes that silence as shamefulness, as Ned being ashamed of his mother. And so Jon feels some sort of shame around being a bastard, though Ned never wanted that for him.

Yeah, and as we all will learn and know, just as much blame of this as Catelyn gets, Ned really should get some of it. He pushes Jon away because of Lyanna's death. It's the kind of relationship we see with Arya and Jon, right? This is Lyanna was Ned's little sister and one of his favorite people in the whole world and he looked at her like she was the entire world and she fell away and faded out and it's a similar relationship we see with Jon something we'll get to later and chat about is of course him saving his sister Arya which we just saw Arya get saved by Theon. Yes, we did. And a lot of that, of course, is at the behest of Jon. Another thing that Jon has that is important in the story is he has the

Stark look. Incorporated with the rumors about who his mother was, Jon's appearance actually ends up being closer to Ned's appearance than his true-born children which could not and did not make things better for catalan sure but at the same time ned must have been so fucking relieved yeah dude he was just sitting there like he's like thank god because if that kid came out like rhaegar uh i know and that's probably part of why there are theories that ned planted the ashara rumors probably oh of course but yeah he must have been pretty fucking relieved anyway john's eyes were a gray so dark they seemed almost black but there was little they did not see he was of an age where the rob but they did not look alike

john was slender where rob was muscular dark where rob was fair graceful and quick where his half brother was strong and fast they're like snow white and rose red or whatever yeah absolutely i was actually just thinking that because john snow white oh and rob rose red with his hair john snow white oh oh like a firelight yeah and of course there's a lot in that passage on top of that the differences differences between the brothers. We get this later with another passage we'll read of Rob and John's constant, that underlying hint that John came first, but Rob's the heir, you know, because John's a bastard and he could never have Winterfell. And that all ties into all these feudal contracts and loyalties and alliances.

And sure, a marriage is a marriage. But as we know with Ned and alliances and sure a marriage is a marriage but as we know with ned and catelyn it is a political marriage there was not love there at first she was supposed to marry brandon all of this was meant for brandon which of course fits right in with rob and john there's always that underlying as john goes on in a dance with dragons you know the cup has fallen to me and it never should have this is not for me none of this winterfell's not mine and there's always that in the text between rob and john even outlining those really sweet moments of the snowflakes in his hair he'll always remember being the bastard of winterfell as much as he loves this second family he was always alone

he was always made to be ostracized and ashamed of having no one for a mother ashamed of being ned's bastard he was never gonna fit in just like we had with theon last episode or last pov in the last episode both yeah but yeah exactly and it's that the way that everything's set up because bastards aren't necessarily entitled to anything in terms of legality wills etc, etc. That he feels guilt, like every single thing that he can have comes tinged with guilt if he gets it through the system, whereas Theon didn't necessarily have that. Theon was allowed to be friends with Robb, and when he competes with Robb, it's just as equals, both as heirs to one of the Seven Kingdoms, john for him to compete he remembers that catlin made him feel bad for it and also that you know for him to compete he is trying to prove himself and it's

everything's tinged with guilt for him yeah i'm trying not to like go too hard on like the catlin stuff but i know it's weird but i mean it's it's hard you can't not relate to John without going there I mean he was alone he had nothing he was you know he didn't do anything to be born and as we know he didn't deserve that Liana got to pass John off and she died obviously which is horrible and I love Liana obviously we know I love Liana she's like one of my faves of all time ever. But Catelyn had to live with Liana's secrets, with her running away with Rhaegar, whatever happened. Catelyn had to bear that cross. And I'm not saying that Jon was some sort of cross to bear. But when we get to Catelyn, it makes sense how that led to those feelings and how that coldness and how ned didn't do anything to stop it

and it that resentment just built and built and built and cattle and gave and gave and gave and it's just really sad to look at all these different povs of people that if like they had just had a little bit more communication in their worlds this could have been avoided all of it all of it could have been avoided for sure but ned is the person who withholds things. He keeps those secrets. He locks them in there. He locks them in the Winterfell tomb. That's where he is. That's where his heart has been all of these years. Same as how Ned, when he's in King's Landing, how he doesn't tell Sansa about his plans for everything. He does the same thing to his wife, Catelyn. He doesn't tell them out of fear for them, out of fear for everything else, that if he just opens the vault a little, it'll all come out and drown them. Yes. And worse than that,

it's funny because when you consider the Ned and his parenting of Sansa and Arya in King's Landing, you don't ever consider there is another option. And like when I was a kid, if my parents had friends come over and they were drinking or they were having a good time and it kind of got inappropriate for a child to be there. And I thought maybe this isn't a good situation that my child should be in. Like my parents would just say, hey, go to bed, Chloe, or we're going to take you and send you home. You know, we're going to go drop you off at home and or there's going to be a babysitter to watch you and you're not going to come to this party. So when Ned shows up and within a week, he should should have said maybe this isn't the place for my daughters maybe it's unsafe and i

need to figure out how to get them back now when all this secret and all this craziness showed up he just thought that his young pre-teen daughters were going to be okay in in king's landing where he was barely okay yeah he was depending on his like on septimordain to take care of them yeah and furthermore we know he didn't bring enough people but he was just so swept up in this plot right of another bastard child you know what the secret was of this bastards bastards bastards that's all that haunts this first book and john is one of those characters that is made to deal with that haunting as well just like sansa ends up turning into a bastard you know to survive and aria of course loses all of her identity to survive and then

theon theon doesn't survive right he dies right we get reek right and john has to do all of this later on obviously he does it a little more literally than everyone else. And, you know, we'll talk about his identity being a bastard later on in the episode, because there is that iconic moment in this chapter. But first, this chapter really incorporates the feel of the Stark's coming of age. We are starting to get it with sansa's chapters aria's chapters are getting there we'll get it eventually with bran with his visions it's a very young heroes coming of age like the the teen titans of the north yes and in that spirit chloe and i have taken to thinking about who they are at first i was like is john raven but then i was like wait no maybe he's more

robin i'm robin is also very much brooding we are i am also basing this off of the the more serious like early 2000s teen titans cartoon even though i actually like teen titans go i know that a lot of people don't but it's it's a pretty i've never seen it enjoyable you just don't expect it to be what the first teen titans was it's it's a perfectly fun show yeah i i don't know i think uh i could see john as robin i like that one i do yeah i was also asserting that bran is beast boy because he goes into the yeah he turns into an animal into his beast but i would argue that bran is actually raven i could see that and that john's's Robin, Rickon is Beast Boy,

and Sansa, I guess, is Starfire. I mean, they have red hair and are more outgoing. I don't know. They have bubbly, girly personalities. I don't know, though. I would argue, and we're going to get to that when we get to Arya someday. I think Arya is more outgoing than Sansa. I could see that.

But Arya, I would see as Terra. So maybe Arya is Starfire and Sansa is Terra. But yeah, I could see Arya. I could see that. But Arya I would see as Terra. So maybe Arya is Starfire and Sansa is Terra. But yeah, I could see Arya, I think Arya's a little more outgoing and Sansa's a bit more introverted. But this is really important to the fandom and I think we're supplying a really important thing to you guys right now. I think you're definitely,

I think there's definitely something there about Bran being Raven. I mean, his name literally means like Little Raven or something, right? And then, yeah, Littlefinger is definitely Slade, in my opinion. Oh, my God. And Rob is... Littlefinger's not allowed in this show. Okay, my bad.

Sorry. Littlefinger's not in this show. Rob is Cyborg. You know, he's the knight. Everyone likes him. He's cool. He's sporty. Also throwing out there you know someone on twitter

today from the knights cast was talking about how of course rob stark is rob's name and then you get the reanimated robert strong and strong means stark in german or is it the other way around one of those and i'm just throwing out there ro Robert Strong is very much a bit cyborg-y. I could see it. I could see it. He's together things, but... I guess the big point is that each of the Starks... Is a teen titan.

Yeah, they're a teen titan. They have a specific skill that they hone that is useful to the Packer team, and it is original to the Packer team, right? Sansa's the politician. Jon's the hero of the story. Bran has the mystic connection. Arya is kind of, right? Sansa's the politician. Jon's the hero of the story. Bran has the mystic connection. Arya is kind of, you know, one of the fighters. The assassiny, sleuthy, I don't know.

I'm working on it. But each of them hones something that's useful to the pack. Yeah, like Theon is speedy. Sorry, I just forgot. Oh my god. Because speedy does the arrows! Okay, done. Yeah, that's him.

No, you're right. They do each bring something to the pack. And there's very much that same field that we've talked about in like the arianne chapters or the quentin chapters of like we are putting together our dnd team and everyone has a different skill set aria's the rogue so it's just got the charisma stats i mean aria also has charisma stats but yeah anyway well that's what's part of her whole like assassiny thing like she can you know be secretly skillfully killing i guess i don't know that's part of her

outgoing and charisma but john is trying to become the ranger class but gets a little sign john's just trying not to die again that's true you know john's rolling he's rolling all these save save throws and, you know, is it going to pan out? We're going to find out. But yeah, I mean, we're here. We're at John's storyline. It's such a big deal. And like in the first book, you know, stretching

all the way until Dance, of course. And his storyline, as we're going to see, is very much about that price, things that you give up. And it's a great mirror for a different character we haven't actually talked about much yet in here because we've been talking about the sharks of danny's storyline which is about you know while john is the price of duty danny's is like only death can pay for life and then we have in this first chapter we're setting up basically john introing us into the night's watch and he gets his like call to action from Benjen. I mean Jon has a bunch of call to actions,

it's he's the hero okay? And we're following his journey of learning all those costs and it ends in the Game of Thrones with him just like committing for Shirzees to the Night's Watch and realizing the cost of giving up his family and slowly like his storylines just gonna test him again and again with all these different temptations like you know starts out with rob and that's lives then you get egret then we get like becoming the lord of winterfell and finally in dance his family again with aria quote unquote aria yeah it also adds to that whole like he just doesn't know who he is or who he should be he's 14 yeah he has all these identity issues and he's 14 15 16 he dies yeah he's 16 17 like and comes back maybe we don't know spoilers i'd be so mad if i died at 14 like 16 and i didn't even get to know who i was yet yeah and he really didn't know

you know more than he did i know damn damn even then well i'm a bastard so i feel like as a bastard i'm allowed to talk about this episode so i'm excited to get into it i am i feel like uh you can't you know talk about john and appropriate my culture so for sure you're 16 or 17 who knows who they are yeah i don't even know really who I am now, and I'm old. I'm like 80. You're so wizened. You're like a fucking old man. Oh my god, I wish. You're analyzing all these stories to Bran Stark.

Anyway. You guys are the Bran Stark of my life. Okay. So, we do have some emails and tweets of note. There's this one that I really liked on Patreon. And I thought it was actually quite apt for this episode which is about john's first time i think getting plastered yeah so steph comments and this was in response to a patreon episode where chloe and i were talking about our own first times getting really drunk

steph says tardy to the party amazing just what a i just want to like lift up that first opening line this comment's really to the party but i just wanted to say i cannot drink orange juice after someone kept refilling my screwdriver sometime in my early 20s i wasn't paying attention and fucked up my life i only drink vodka and meals now oh that's that's you as fuck you can't do vodka i don't really vodka i don't really yeah i don't really do vodka because of that and also yeah it was from screwdrivers i don't i do like moscow mules i'll drink some things depending on what they are i had one this weekend that was okay but it had too much ginger yeah moscow mules are just like um for me they feel

they have the same spirit as mojitos but but in a copper cup, which is pretty cool. Yeah, and more of a different citrus. Yeah, that's true. So anyway, I thought that that was perfectly on brand for this episode. As Jon gets drunk for the very first time, and so is Chloe. Drunk for the very first time. Like Jon Snow. Okay, anyways.

So, lightning round. Of course, we have a prologue. We should start back. Dance with me then. How good is that line? Dance with me then. All of a sudden, they were definitely going to revisit, of course,

the Night's Watch. Duh, someday. Someday here. We're going to talk about that soon. Bran I. Bran watches his father serve justice to a deserter of the night's watch the starks come across six abandoned direwolf pups catlin one catlin seeks her lord husband in the godswed to tell him that his foster father has died

gasp and the king marches for the north oh my god did you just cheer about johnny oh i thought you said yes i was like oh my god no i'm gasping respect because we all know he was murdered he was murdered by his enemies and his wife um can do both denarius one denarius is presented to cal drogo for a possible marriage alliance which would grant her brother Drogo's armies. Eddard I, the king, makes Eddard his hand and offers a betrothal for his heir to Sansa. Ew. And an overview of Jon I in A Game of Thrones.

Jon lurks in the shadows of his half-siblings at a feast honoring the king and his party. He meets Tyrion Lannister and speaks with his uncle Benjen about joining him at the Wall. So opens Jon I with one of the few times that Jon is happy to be a bastard because he gets to be ignored since everyone else is paying attention and the castle is feasting the king, queen, and their children. And Jon is drinking a lot of summer wine on a bench with some of the young squires surveying the scene. It's hour four of the feast and the Lannister Baratheon banners hang on the granite walls next to Stark banners.

There's a singer playing the high harp and his half siblings are all seated on the dais in seats of honor with the royal family. So, of course, the singer playing the high harp, just to point out, since we just came from this, is Mance or Abel or Mance. This is straight up Mance. This is when John meets Mance. We will get to that, obviously, later, later, later, later on. Mance says, I saw you at the feast at Winterfell. So this was Mance. Yes.

John's happy that he's in the crowd and gets to be like a normal person. And normally the rest of the children as tonight are only permitted one glass of wine. But down here, John can get crunk. It's nice that George takes this time to tell us about Ned's nature as a father. John's point of view is obviously a little bit of an outsider. So we get a different opinion than what we hear from a lot of the characters thoughts like aria and like sansa it's interesting because it brings us right back to talking about ned harboring his children so close to home that it's detrimental to their upbringing

we see in sansa's chapter right around this time when she repeats they were only ever allowed a cup of wine at feasts and how by the end of the trident she's too buzzed to actually really exist you know to make decisions she's very much so incapable of soberly making decisions during that she feels kind of out of control and i mean ned doesn't let them drink he doesn't let them you know do that unless it's fancy occasions i will say though in ned's defense they are like 11 and developing i think that the way this is no i agree it's fancy occasions. I will say, though, in Ned's defense, they are like 11 and developing. I think that the way this is written, it's supposed to be us. I think this is George's way of coding.

Ned's like a responsible father. Unlike Robert. I mean, definitely more responsibly of Robert letting Joffrey steal off into the wine cellars and grab his favorite sword and take a Stark girl across the lands and then go like get food for the and be like feed me peasant so yeah it's a much different contrast these kids are raised kind of gently and more humbly than what a lot of the other highborns are they're still highborn they still experience a lot of those benefits but they're definitely raised uh you know they they've done maybe one chore before yeah just one maybe one yeah john has a man's thirst down on the benches so the squires are egging him hey drink more i do i do appreciate it greatly first john pun i'm a believer that his name's gonna be agon i think it will be

however george explains it it'll probably make. I think his name's probably Aegon. It'd be fine if it was Aemon as well, but I think it's going to be Aegon. I do. He's Aegon the Seventh. He's certain that the squires are way more fun than the king's group, and he recalls the procession when they all entered

and Ned had to escort Cersei. Awkward. Must have been so weird. Jon remembers that Cersei wore a tiara in her golden hair with emeralds that match her eye. And he's like, yeah, she is really pretty, but he says that he can see through her eyes that she is not, in fact, actually happy.

Then we have King Robert and Lady Catelyn, and the king turns out is a huge disappointment to Jon. His father had talked of him often, Robert and Lady Catelyn. And the king turns out is a huge disappointment to Jon. His father had talked of him often. The peerless Robert Baratheon, demon of the Trident, the fiercest warrior of the realm, a giant among princes. Jon saw only a fat man, red-faced under his beard, sweating through his silks. He walked like a man half in his cups. Well, that's because he is.

In Robert's defense, he is half in his cups well that's because he is yeah in robert's defense he is fully in his cups and john's about to be in his cup that's true so he's about to make a real drunken how the fuck are you gonna judge him john you're getting drunk right now you're being pathetic down on the fucking pews going yeah i'm sad i'm getting drunk what the fuck is that let he who has never drank before cast the first glass is all i'm saying yeah you miss every shot you don't take that's true it's 100 of them the children all come next and you know they all they all come in rickon is super adorable and tries to visit with John. He's like, go along now. Go be royal.

And interestingly enough, those kids say the darndest shit, right? Say the darndest things. Ricken obviously doesn't think John's a bastard. He doesn't know what that means. He just knows John's his brother and he's kind of different from the rest of his siblings, but he loves him. Yeah, he's way moodier than the rest of his siblings.

He's real emo and he wears a lot of darker colors you know i mean but sansa keeps trying to braid his hair he won't let her he's over here he's listening to like the smiths yeah the smiths or the or the cure morrissey the cure probably uh of course rob comes in right after rickon and he's wearing stark gray and white, looking very, you know, young lordly. And Princess Myrcella is attached to his arm. She's not quite eight yet. She has long golden curls like her mom's. And she gives Rob all these shy looks and timid smiles.

And Rob is all grins, like he looks dumb, John says. But John decides Myrcella is insipid. He doesn't understand how Rob doesn't see how vapid Myrcella is insipid. He doesn't understand how Rob doesn't see how vapid Myrcella is and see through her. I'm just like, that's very rude, John. I'm over here giving you a pass for being 14 and

Myrcella is 8. How smart do you think she's going to be? She can't even probably do fucking division yet. She's like, not Arya. I can barely do division. I know okay she's like not i can barely do division i know i know she's like not aria and but we see in like sansa and arianne's chapters and we've got over this all right marcella is very clever she's very good at savas and she's kind above all she's kind she's gentle her nature is gentle she's just as clever but she has like

they say she has none of her mother's cruelty in her she has her beauty but not her cruelty she's gentle kind and clever and it it's obvious jealousy i mean sure it's obvious jealousy john is you know he's just pissed he's a bastard he has no place this feast he has to watch the royal children parade around which irony there is they're bastards um as well i think john has a lot of focus on the physical looks of these people and it's obviously seeding into his thoughts mixed with some vanity and it's immature it's compared to the john we have now in a dance with dragons he does a lot of growing up especially at the wall and especially north of the wall as we know he uh you know kills the man it's just interesting to see this perspective he's truly a 14 year old boy he's not mature

he thinks he's a man and as benjen will outline as we go along he is not a man yet and the rest of the night's watch is definitely going to hammer that into him and it's a good arc of growth to where we get in dance with lord snow but he's still 14 right now and still like very much it's very much that emo little boy and his half sisters are being accompanied by the princes and aria is walking together with tommen who has long white blonde hair framing his chubby face tommen sansa is walking with joffrey joffrey's like 12 he's taller than rob or john that's such a cool thing to think of to john's dismay of course and and of course he has like those thick blonde curls and his mother's eyes and

we get the quote sansa looked radiant as she walked beside him but john did not like joffrey's pouty lips or the bored, disdainful way he looked at Winterfell's great hall. He's taking all this out on these royal people that are visiting, and he's really just mad that he doesn't get to be one of them. Which, totally fair.

I mean, he doesn't get to be one of them right now, but, like, they are the embodiment of that system that is ostracizing him. Yeah. Like, they're the pinnacle of it. And ironically, he should be sitting where they sit. I know. And like there's a lot of irony when it comes to how John thinks of the royals and speaks of them.

Yeah, it's going to be hard not to just say this after every single thing in this chapter. Oh, for sure. I mean, it's all laced with it. It's very intentional. It's funny when people say obviously R plus L equals J was the biggest mystery for a long time but it's meant to be a mystery

it's meant for us to figure it out and then when we come back for the slow burn you're like oh yep there it is George did it there too right there this is how a king should look oh nope just kidding I'm the king yeah it's like when you're looking at one of those books you know where you have to like put your eyes super close and then bring it out

and then once you see it like you can't unsee it yeah that's exactly what it is you know like or like when you see two things and you have to see one thing and you're like oh should i see the one thing where john's a bastard but i also see where he's a king yeah so that's nuts meta john isn't really interested in this like droll affair though he's now interested in the queen's brothers who come next because they they are a fascinating pair tyrian lannister and jamie lannister the lion and the imp there was no mistaking which was which sir jamie lannister was twin to Queen Cersei, tall and golden with flashing green eyes and a smile that cut like a knife, such edge. He wore crimson silk, high black boots, a black satin cloak. On the breast of his tunic, the lion of his house was embroidered in gold thread,

roaring its defiance. They called him the Lion of Lannister to his face and whispered, King Slayer, behind his back. john found it hard to look away from him this is what a king should look like he thought to himself as the man passed they called him the bastard of winterfell and whispered turncloak behind his back or like they called him lord snow to his face and whispered deserter behind his back. Yeah, that's definitely true. At least with Theon, you know, everyone's saying shit to his face, you know? Oh, yeah, exactly. They're just spitting on him.

Like, peh. Literally. His observations here serves as an introduction for us to see another point of view. Watch the royal party come in, but it also lets us see what they look like from an outsider. Instead of seeing from Ned. He thinks the Lannister twins are beautiful. the royal party come in but it also lets us see what they look like from an outsider instead of seeing from ned he thinks the lannister twins are beautiful he thinks robert looks nothing like a king he thinks marcella's insipid he thinks the man that throws his half brother out of a window is what a king should look like which major major irony of ned finding jamie sitting on the throne

right and how you know ned thinks oh how he glittered. But here Jon is thinking, wow, that's what a king should look like. Each of the princes and Myrcella partner his family and sit at that high table. All of this is kind of out of petty, minute judgments. Obviously, he's more judging the system than he is judging the actual people because he doesn't get to be at that table. And it's important why that transition into meeting Tyrion happens and why it's so harsh in contrast against his opinions of Jaime because this is, you know, the real life.

This is what the product looks like on the outside and this is what the real life is. For sure. And of course, that's what makes it so compelling when Mance, who's there, right, in the corner, like when he tells Mance as to why he's deserting. Yeah, when he says like, you were at that feast, you know, you saw you saw where I was sitting. Where was I sitting Mance? It's so convincing. And I know people always talk like,

oh, political John, the theory that he's, you know, going to be majorly being political this whole time and work for the Iron Throne with his claim or some shit uh it's why it's interesting that he does have a little bit of political intrigue you know he he does think with that kind of mindset just like how ned kind of did it's just the resources weren't fully fully available you know he does some politicking much later on in the storyline it's different it's a different kind yes it's out of need and necessity it's's not out of, you know, ambition and rising. Yeah, it's understanding the different needs of people and trying to allocate those resources.

It's policy. It's real politics. It's what politics should be, not what it's become. Jon also watches Tyrion with fascination, thinking that everything that the gods had given Cersei and Jaime, they had denied Tyrion. He also notes Tyrion's heterochromia and his pale,

almost white blonde hair. And of course, making the end of the honor train, we have Benjen Stark and Theon Greyjoy, and Uncle Benjen gives Jon a smile and Theon ignores him, which, yeah, that's not surprising. We're all very familiar with Theon now, everyone. So we all now understand this this action it probably stands out to all of us because we now know that

it's theon denying john because he's denying his own feelings as an outsider and trying to distance himself from all of that yeah he's trying to fit in trying to be like sorry this is they accept me this is the only time i'm accepted is my royalty my name and john has none of that so yeah toasts are made the feast can truly begin john feels something rub against his leg and then he sees ghosts red eyes peering up at him oh he slips ghost a chicken carcass beneath the table and the dire wolf devours it his siblings weren't allowed to bring their wolves to the feast but he counted himself lucky to be where no one would notice it yeah it's pretty great to bring your dog around but also in this moment soon after all this we see that for john his eyes stung john

rubbed at them savagely cursing the smoke and i think this is a really great example of george r martin doing that showing and not telling because just as John is learning to see past people's appearances, we see that in this chapter, he hasn't fully gotten through that, based on his judgments of Marcella and Jamie. But the reader is also learning to do that too. And it comes through, I think, especially on a reread, because John might be cursing the smoke, but we haven't heard about smoke really in this chapter. His eyes are tearing up after watching this entire train go by or thinking about it.

And it's all his like family or people that he thinks of as family and he's not allowed to sit with them. He's on the outside all the way down here. And he keeps trying to convince himself like over and over he's telling himself, maybe I'm fortunate for being down here. Like maybe I'm really the lucky one because I have this thing.

But now that he's a little drunk, some of his real feelings and frustration are coming through. And he's wiping those tears away. Yeah. Man. Alcohol. Not even once. Not even once. The dogs of Winterfell are moving around across the tables and a large one

tries to pick a fight with ghost over the chicken carcass but gives up leaves it john ruffles ghost fern is all gritted and uncle benjamin is there and says oh are these the wolves i've yet to meet i've heard so much about them he ruffles ghost fur as well ghost is getting lots of attention because he's a good boy this is very important analysis i need you to know boy he's a good boy who's gonna die in season eight who's gonna die in season eight why would you do that go away i mean it's true go away we're gonna do a patron episode about ghosts and the dogs we should do it about about the wolves the puppers i want to yeah an animal episode let's do a patreon episode about ghosts and the dogs we should do it about about the wolves the puppers i want to yeah an animal episode let's do a patreon episode about that please okay yeah let's do it can we do

it benjamin then takes a seat next to john and he's lifting the wine he's like john how much have you had and he's like this is a sweet wine and i'm just saying that john has been drinking a lot of that sweet wine but john throwing this out there while we're here talking about all this wow cats rookie move Jon too much sugar plus too much alcohol is a bad time that's how you end up

with a bad hangover and embarrassing yourself like you're about to do right now oh my god like pounding headaches the next day Ben Stark laughed Oh my god. Your head. Like, pounding headaches the next day. Pounding. Ben Stark laughed. As I feared.

Ah, well, I believe I was younger than you the first time I got truly and sincerely drunk. He snagged a roasted onion, dripping brown with gravy from a nearby trencher and bit into it. It crunched. His uncle was sharp-featured and gaunt as a mountain crag, but there was always a hint of laughter in his blue-gray eyes. Tonight, it was rich black velvet with high leather boots and a wide belt with a silver buckle. A heavy silver chain was looped around his neck. Benjen watched Ghost with amusement as he ate his onion. A very quiet wolf, he observed observed he's not like the others john said

he never makes a sound that's why i named him ghost that and because he's white the others are all dark gray or black hmm first off really meta right he's not like the others a very quiet like other girls he's not like other wolves and A very quiet, lucky observe. He's not like other girls. He's not like other wolves. And of course, the first time Benjen was drunk, he was younger than John. Like he said, it was at the tourney at Harrenhal. He would have been 12 or 13 years old at the time. John's 14 now. He and his sister and brothers all were drinking merrily at the tourney at Harrenhal feast.

He actually made fun of liana which we're going to get to later and she poured wine on him so that's a drunken person move too yep absolutely all of these are also quick shout out to the feast of ice and fire cookbook they have a really great recipe for this roasted onions in gravy they're not roasted but of the onions and gravy check it out i can make some onions and gravy i can be down for that it's pretty simple yeah i have the stuff yeah so benjen tells john that there are still dire wolves beyond the wall so all this is such an interesting metaphor right because john goes north of the wall to try to find his pack he joins the wildlings

and of course that's not them he never truly belongs there either and then he comes back to the wall and he ends up being the leader at the wall and he doesn't fit in there either and then stannis offers him winterfell and he feels uneasy and he thinks could i could i have it but no it could never be mine so john is just the lone wolf he is out on his own he's out in the middle of uh the cold which i if you haven't listened i highly recommend listening to the manimals their game of thrones concept album seven my favorite song on that whole entire album is lone which is about john snow and it's uh it's really good it's really good yes and regarding that idea of belonging you know that idea that john and denarius do end up

in some sort of romantic situation like it's just like her you know like she's wandering around never really belonging anywhere it's like poetry it rhymes yeah absolutely their stories have so much harmony it has so much of the melody in common but also has this beautiful harmony i i will give it that i mean it's going to be well written when it gets done yeah when these books finish adapting the show and benjen is actually very inquisitive about why john is he eating here and not at the high table john's like well actually i usually do but lady Stark thought it might give insult to the queen and king. Which, yes, I get it.

Cat is kind of cold, but she isn't completely wrong. I mean, she's doing things to ensure that the royalty being there goes well. The king has many bastards with dark hair and light eyes. So having Jon at the dais, Ned's bastard with dark hair and light eyes. So having Jon at the dais, Ned's bastard, with dark hair and light eyes, might insult the queen. And it does show Catelyn's thoughtfulness and not wanting to offend, especially another woman

who's had to go through that. I'm not saying that Jon is a piece of baggage or anything, but I'm saying she still did go through it so she's obviously having that thought for the queen in her head yeah and i mean obviously we know robert probably wouldn't have been upset having john up there but as you're saying cersei would definitely take a front cersei put a hit on all of her husband's bastards lannister would definitely not be cool with that i also think that that, I wonder if Ned was somewhat relieved, because I feel like if Jon were up there next to Robert,

Ned would be just sweating, sweating blood. He'd be like fucking soaked, and he'd just be like, Snow, Ned, snow! The entire time, just ringing in his ears. Benjen notes that Ned doesn't look like he's having a blast, either. Jon noticed this already, because of course he thinks a bastard had to learn to notice things he notices not only ned's tenseness but the queen was tense too she had thrown a fit when robert went to go to the crypts his broad face was flushed behind his great black beard he made many a toast laughed loudly at every

just and attacked each dish like a starving man but beside him the queen seemed as cold as an ice sculpture i think this is a really cool thing that he actually thinks this that he has this observation about cersei like obviously we know who cersei is now but this observation of her I mean this could have been his mom this was supposed to be Lyanna this was Lyanna was supposed to be the queen at Robert's side uh Robert would have been his father you know I mean this is so interesting that he's watching the way Robert treats her and thinks Robert is no good king when his real father Rhaegar is regarded as oh he would have been the best king we've had had in years you know yeah and I mean we don't know that obviously well I think people

thought that though yeah no no people still think that they still do they still think oh if Rhaegar were here yeah which I don't know about that obviously he did a good job of the opposite you know dissecting the entire nation it's a grass is always greener sort of situation for i think a lot of the people who survived the rebellion yeah like a chardon i think yeah actually robert would have probably been with you know if you ignore the whole liana kidnapping thing robert would have been perfectly happy with reygar being king and not him oh yeah he didn't want this he just got it and along with observing robert's demeanor he also makes a similar observation of cersei and her coldness using the similar language and imagery

that ice queen imagery that ned and sansa do in their a game of thrones chapters and yeah as we were saying you know a lot of john's storyline is that perception but like it's kind of cool how we get to see that skill grow throughout book 1 when he's at the Wall. And in some ways it grows, in some ways it doesn't. He has to be taught how to see that class system a little better, refine it by Korin Halfhand. Because Jon himself has grown up pretty well for a bastard, all things considered. But he also still, as we said overlook some things like he writes marcella off as insipid and he kind of writes off the concerns of his men and

the danger that they pose at the night's watch when he's the lord commander especially considering that there was just a mutiny like fucking yesterday you know this chapter is well written when every other word either evokes like first you're just feeling really sympathetic for john right he's complaining and he's upset but you feel bad because you're like oh this poor kid like he's just some bastard he's just some poor kid you meet tyrian you know and there you go it's just another you know two bastards hanging out but then you flash forward to next episode we're going to do with donald noy telling him you know like look you're not shit you're the son of a lord you're a bastard of a high lord who you always had food on the table you didn't have to fight for what you had you didn't have to do anything for what you had so it's interesting that

like in this breath we can feel such sorrow for john for everything he's endured for these 14 years of you know not knowing who he is but at the same time in two chapters we're just going to be like yeah john what the fuck dude like you're still really privileged oh yeah and we even get to that in a second with his exchange with tyrian where he says you know like all dwarves are bastards yeah in their father's eyes but like not all bastards have to be dwarves you know like you get to be like a full able-bodied person. You get to still be a warrior. Yeah, you can find honor that way if you wanted. Tyrion has to find his own path in the world and carve it for himself.

Yeah. Benjen tells Jon they could use some detail-oriented people at the non-profit he's working for in, you know, upper management. Yeah, and I'm just going to throw it out there, you know. It's a non-profit for rich philanthropists. They're like, yeah, I'm going to come in. I'm just gonna throw it out there you know it's non-profit for rich philanthropists they're like yeah i'm gonna come in i'm just gonna join it's my hobby as being a board member but it's actually a penal colony for everyone else yeah it's that idea of uh you know prisons privatization and yeah speaking speaking of the different class system and privileges john fucking volunteers and of course we see john always immediately comparing himself to rob when benjamin brings up this idea he and john says that rob is the better lance but he's the better sword and he sits the horse better according to holland yeah he could definitely

want to be a ranger in his eyes just like his mother he sits a horse well there's a hint right there these chapters are obviously peppered with these hints he's both the horse and the sword as his father was and just as a fun easter egg and i think we called this out in sansa's chapters when it happened but loris uses similar language a little reverse where he says that garland's the better sword and he's the better lance so yeah i love that that's how it's cute yeah ali is the better sword and he's the better lance so yeah i love that that's how it's cute yeah ally is the better sword and jake's the better lance so oh oh some sibling knowledge for you about my cats and one of them joins a celibate order also yeah john swells with pride at the idea that he could you know be, be something that maybe I'm better than Rob.

You know, I could I'm better than him at something. Finally, I could do this. This is something I could excel in. This is something my skill set could work for. He begs Benjen to take him back to the wall with him. Please take me back with you. Ned would give me leave. You know, this is this is what I want.

But Benjen doesn't think that the wall is any place for John. Yes. And John's like, but I'm gonna turn 15 soon. I'm almost a man grown, and obviously bastards grow up faster than highborn children. Okay, you're still a highborn child. Yes, he is. I mean, he's not wrong that

he has been forced to grow up a little faster, but also I'm just like, dog, you're 15. I understand that people, we've had this discussion before. discussion before people are gonna say yeah it's considered grown up in westeros but again childhood development especially when your dad has sheltered you yes quote unquote he's bad his his decision making faculties have literally not yet developed under the snow ned snow and john's like trying to make this decision not only is he a teenage boy saying that oh yeah i'm a man grown i can totally make this life-changing decision he's also drunk yeah and don't make life-changing decisions when you're drunk john and of course then he tries to

justify it because he's like darren targaryen was only 14 when he conquered Dorne and Benji's like, yeah, idiot, he lost 10,000 men and then another 50 when he tried to hold it. And then he fucking died when he was 18. And he tells him, war isn't a game. And of course, funnily enough, Jon Snow is only 16, 17

when he dies. Isn't it a game? I thought that's what this book was called that's what this all was it's a game it's a game thrones is this a game i think this is a game okay yeah yeah and i mean like there there's also some great serious stuff going on here too like some great warnings here for both john and rob like the boy king lost jorn and his life trying to take it it's very some rob vibes there as well but also as you said like that youthful folly follows john he dies pretty early but you know good thing for him i get knocked down but i

get up again i've always wanted to have a tub thumping party where we get where we have a whiskey drink and then a lager drink and then a vodka, whatever, a cider drink. We have all four of those. I think it'd be really fun. I think we should do that at some point in our lives. I'm in. Thanks. But John hasn't exactly forgotten that he has no future.

That's kind of what he's thinking about enjoying the Night's Watch. He's seeing it as a future for him, which I know I have a lot of family members that have been in the military in some sort of form. And it's a really big step to take. And in a way, this is the northern militia. I mean, this is what's left to guard the realms between men. He had thought on it long and hard, lying abed at night while his brothers slept around him. Rob would someday inherit Winterfell, would command great armies as the warden of the north bran and rickon would be rob's bannermen and rule hold fast in his name his sisters aria and sansa would marry heirs of other great houses and go south as mistresses of castles of their own but what place could a bastard hope to earn what place indeed it reminds me of that line when he thinks

like my mother had no place for me yes she did she had a place for you she still has a place for you you don't have to go there right now just because you're 16 and 17 you don't have to go to the crypts right away and go die all right you could just i don't know i guess there are thrones whatever yeah you can join her at the end i guess there are thrones whatever yeah you can join her at the end of your life you know yeah ideally yeah knock it off john yeah much much much later and you know benjamin's thinking something silly he's like i don't really know if i want you to join john and he's probably thinking inside like fuck why did i bring this up and he tries to tell john you don't know what you'd be giving up you've never even had a woman

you might if you knew what it meant benjamin said if you knew what the oath would cost you you might be less eager to pay the price son john felt anger rise inside him i'm not your son Oh, Benjen sucks it up. Sorry, I'm upset. More's the pity. He put a hand on John's shoulder. Come back to me after you fathered a few bastards of your own and we'll see how you feel. John trembled. I will never father a bastard, he said carefully. Never.

He spat it out like venom. Suddenly he realized that the table had fallen silent and they were all looking at him he felt the tears begin to well behind his eyes he pushed himself to his feet i must i must be excused he said with the last of his dignity oh oh that passage kills me that like like slays me. Because first off, Benjen knew? Yes, totally. I mean, like. He's in the Night's Watch.

Benjen knew. The entire time. More's the pity. He totally knows. He's like. More's the pity. That's like just the saddest line. More's the pity that I wasn't your dad.

You know, like more's the pity that. Not just the saddest line more is the pity that i wasn't your dad you know like more is the pity that not just that but i mean i'm sure like a hundred percent sure that ned and benjen came to blows about letting john know who he was i am almost a hundred% sure that is what the fallout was. And we know, of course, that Benjen and Liana were close. They were very close. They were so close as kids. Bran, in his vision in A Dance of Dragons in Bran 3, when he's plugged into the Godswood, he sees two children dueling with broken branches. The girl was the older and taller of the two. Arya, Bran thought eagerly as he watched her leap up onto a rock and cut at the boy,

but that couldn't be right. If the girl was Arya, the boy was Bran himself, and he had never worn his hair so long. And Arya never beat me playing swords the way that girl is beating him. She slashed the boy across his thighs so hard that his leg went out from under him, and he fell into the pool and he began to splash and shout. You be quiet, stupid, the girl girl said tossing her own branch aside it's just water do you want old nan to hear and run tell father she knelt and pulled her brother from the pool but before she got him out the two of them were gone ah yes babies their close relationship and of course then you get the heron hall speech right

the whole passage from heron hall in bran asos the uh the dragon prince sang a song so sad it made the wolf maid sniffle but when her pup brother teased her for crying she poured wine over his head a black brother spoke asking the knights to join the night's watch so there's this part of that passage where all of a sudden things happen after you hear in a row, you hear the wolfmaid pours wine on her brother after the dragon played, blah, blah, blah, everybody is their sigil

or their color or their animal or whatever and directly tied to Benjen and Liana is this line that a black brother spoke asking the knights to join the Night's watch so looking back that's obviously still an influencer for benjamin joining the knight's watch and keeping and living with this painful secret of john's parentage i'm sure that he contested ned with

the way he was raising liana's son you know whether or not he knew all the backstory whether or not he knew you know that he was possibly the heir to the throne. He just knew that Liana had a kid and Ned brought it home. And there's no need for Benjen to look at his brother and ask him, is this really your kid? Because I can tell you that he could probably look in Ned's eyes when Ned came home and know that was Liana's kid. as kid yes yes and i mean it's set up right that like we're starting to see that maybe benjen it gets to be that father figure for john gets a step in where his brother and failed and his sister couldn't be there but then nope nope he has to go and disappear yeah anyway it's a really great point I didn't think about how Benjen also probably in a drunken moment was told about the Night's Watch

yeah lots of parallels here for them both for sure especially because Benjen's you know that last son that would never get to inherit at this point Winterfell like what else was there for him exactly and close to a willful sister. Yep.

And dead before her time. Wait, what? No, Ari's life. There are tears now on Jon's face, and they are hot as he leaves the hall. And then Jon and Ghost enter the yard. As Jon's wiping away these tears, another fellow outcast appears. It's Tyrion Lannister.

He wiped away his tears on the sleeve of his shirt, furious that he had let them fall and turn to go. And yeah, this entire moment is just those floodgates that Jon's been holding back this whole time. Tyrion's here and he's looking like a gargoyle on the ledge where he sits, you know, channeling 90s, grinning at Jon. Yeah, he's also kind of channeling those gargoyles with the Blackwater. Oh, I thought you were going to say from The Hunchback of Notre Dame, but yes, also that. Yeah, they talk to each other.

They do. He asks about Jon's wolf, and Jon corrects him. He's like, it's a dire wolf, first off. Yeah. He asks why Tyrion is even out here. Right, it's Prada. Tyrion climbs, then jumps down to have a closer look at ghosts. Very acrobatic.

I won't read the passage, but it was obviously that kind of retconned thing George did where he kind of very briefly mentioned that, you know, since Tyrion's a dwarf, he likes to do acrobatics. And, you know, kind of, okay, George. Glad you kind of let it trail off with your garden. Well, and then he found out that turns out little people aren't actually good at doing that. Like the way that they're built for many of them would actually mean that they couldn't do that. So, yeah, it's a little, now that I look at it, I'm like, George, that's a little problematic, but we'll move on. Problematic. Well, he found out and then he prunes his garden a little you know yeah he weeded he weeded he did tyrian

says that ghost though seems a little shy and he's attempting to walk towards him and ghost snarls backing away from tyrian so i along with along with what you're saying um you know you get some of those 93 letter vibes here and with jamie earlier in the chapter yeah Jon tells Ghost to stay and Tyrion and Ghost finally meet calmly Tyrion and Jon meet as well Tyrion calls him the bastard of Winterfell and Jon's like um what Tyrion's like am I wrong though am I like that's literally that's a conversation and Tyrion says I, I love this. Jon has more north in him than his brothers, and Jon feels pride for that. He also

has that thought that we'll get to someday in Tyrion's chapters, you know, whoever Jon's mother had been, she left very little of herself in him. Which, the irony here is she left all of herself because the seed is strong. Yes. We only get what, Rhaegar left jon with his emo-ness

he has nice cheekbones i think that's true and he's slender yeah and graceful yes i mean really in this chapter this whole introduction of what he looks like yes obviously he has the stark look but the way he moves and those kind of things the way he fights they're very described as that graceful slender targaryen everything we've seen kind of in fire and blood of how they look kind of ethereal he's described as moving that way almost similar to how the others are described if you've ever noticed that also just a side note i think it's kind of funny i was reading someone had screenshot a conversation between the casting director and i think you know the showrunners and when they first saw kit harrington and they were like i really hope this kid can act because they were saying that he looked

exactly the way that they had thought of john as looking as dark and sullen and then they described him as being very very ugly which i think is interesting because john's not described as such john described as being really pretty. He's prettier than Craster's daughters. Yeah, I don't think I would call Kit Harington very, very ugly either. Yeah, for those of you listening to this, if you've seen the album art I doodled for this, I wanted John to be

pretty. Look at those eyelashes. He's supposed to be beautiful. Yeah, you put the Bishounen shoujo falling petals. You could see the sparkles in his eyes. Yeah, you put, like, the Bishounen, like, shoujo falling petals. You could see the sparkles in his eyes. Yeah, exactly. Like, this bitch was beautiful.

I wanted it to be pretty because John is this skinny pretty boy. He's like Tuxedo Mask, basically. Yeah, with blue petals. I support the Seiya thing, you know, from, like, the last season of Sailor Stars. But whatever, he's basically very tuxedo mask yeah let me give you some counsel bastard lannister said never forget what you are for surely the world will not make it your strength then it can never be your weakness. Armor yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you. Jon was in no mood for anyone's counsel. What do you know about being a bastard?

All dwarves are bastards in their father's eyes. You are your mother's true-born son of Lannister. Am I? the dwarf replied, sardonic. Do tell my lord father. My mother died birthing me, and he's never been sure. I don't even know who my mother was, John said. Some woman, no doubt. Most of them are. True. Not like her.

Not everyone's like that girl. He favored John with a rueful grin. Remember this, boy. all dwarves may be bastards yet not all bastards need be dwarfs and with that he turned and sauntered back into the feast whistling a tune when he opened the door the light from within threw his shadow clear across the yard and for a moment tyrian lannister stood tall as a king wow we get rushed back to that contrast of jamie you know jamie looks like a king should be yet tyrian lannister's yeah it's good tyrian standing tall is a contrast that jamie's disney prince king look we see in john's eyes where jamie

the beautiful man in gilded armor who can have whatever he wants, including the queen, lol, with the best sword arm in the country, is up on this stage. He is playing a role on a stage that John is not able to get on. He turns around and he bumps into this direct mirror instead, which is Tyrion Lannister, the bastard, the stunted, the outcast, this demonic little monkey, in Cersei's words. Jon feels hated and iced out in his own home from Catelyn, just like Tyrion. And it makes me wonder if the toxicity with Tyrion and Jon's families are meant kind of as a contrast in the end, right? We see Tyrion and Jon possibly embracing one side of that coin with their families. You get the Tywin writ small and

then you get the ned writ small yeah i think that's a really great point of how you know the ones who are the outcasts like you said become the the family name yeah it's john learning to see past things and their appearances and i mean we've we discussed this on that episode that we did with Lucifer means Lightbringer on Between Two Weirwoods, right? And with Crowfood's daughter, aka Amanda, whom we had on a few weeks ago for Theon episode about the differences between the way Ned and Tywin each raise their kids. Yes. And looking at that line of, you know, this is what a king should look like it's clear all this in the long run is meant to be a little ironic i can expect it to be mirrored like what in the crypts in a dream of spring when john comes to terms with his parentage he's like this is what

a king should look like i'm what a king is i mean overall yeah right me fuck why overall just prom king no okay oh my god, prom king. School of Thrones! I love School of Thrones. Everyone watch School of Thrones. This is one of the biggest struggles for Jon and his arc. It starts here in this chapter. We get the outline for Catelyn's treatment. We know it's coming.

We know Ned did what he personally could, but he still pushed Jon away, you know, because Lyanna and promise me and john's alone he's abandoned in the snowy north never knowing who he is who his mother was what he's doing with his pointless little life you know he's like oh i'm just a bastard but he's about to become the hero of this entire story right he's the hero and this is his rough and tumble way to saving everyone in the fucking world you're welcome let's get emo bitches acoustic guitar riff like you know like here's summer hall this is it

this is john this is the ascent the slow ascent then descent then ascent then descent then ascent finally maybe ideally hopefully ideally yes absolutely it's gonna be really interesting and you know that there's gonna be a huge change he becomes the hero he becomes the person who has everything handed to him on a platter but not really like he worked hard to get to where he is but then he's going to be bequeathed with the name with which everything comes and like that's why it's so interesting that this is you know like this is one of the most iconic exchanges in a song of ice and fire people quote this shit everywhere of like armor yourself in it and no one can use it against you, you know? Like, Tyrion telling him all that.

Yeah, Lord Snow. Exactly. And he doesn't love it, but he, like, lets it happen. the heels of the Theon and Ramsay chapters because we see how Jon very much juxtaposes with Theon, who was unable to accept who he was for so long, that he was a Greyjoy but very much growing up as a Stark, and that led to him doing dumb shit to prove himself because it was really, of course, himself that he couldn't accept. We get deep here. And of course like john learns early on to accept that he is a bastard while ramsey never really does and of course ramsey grew up much more lower class than john did and also had like shitty friends and was his mom was kind of shitty too he i mean ramsey's

shitty all right and but like he wastes so much time and energy vying for that acceptance and trying to get that last name, trying to erase the bastard-y from himself but just as like, Ramsay becoming a Bolton and no longer being a Snow doesn't change that he's a fucking monster and is an awful terrible person like, we're gonna see that

of course being a bastard does shape who Jon is when he accepts it but also we're gonna be exploring how changing his name from snow to like he's not even going to become like john stark he's about to become like probably some sort of targaryen probably agon like that's going to affect who he is and he spent all this time armoring himself as snow being like yeah all right fine fuck it i'm lord snow i'm ned stark's bastard and when that armor is stripped from him what then who who you gonna be

John? Identity crisis yo big identity crisis and worse than now and the huge thing there I've written about this before I'll put a link in our description uh about just John accepting his parentage he's gonna be I mean we can even expect this in season eight of the show we're gonna see this in the books when it happens he's going to be so kind of distraught and pulled between himself you know like everything he lived was a lie on top of a lie that he believed right he believed he was ned's son and that his mother was no one some he straight up says like oh some common woman or a whore or whatever like why won't he speak of her john doesn't even know that it could be ashara right he doesn't he doesn't know who it is he has no clue he thinks it's just some common woman from the war and then all of a sudden it's turned on its head in the middle of fucking

his aunt he finds out that he's her nephew raygar's his, Ned's not his dad. Ned kept this terrible secret and protected him for so long. Yeah. And, like, we discussed this before, but, of course, George R.R. Martin likes taking other things, everyday things, or examples from history. And what he likes to do is he dramatizes it. He turns it up to 11. That makes it a really fun, compelling story. And he's doing that here with this like during the ages of 16 17 maybe a little later depending you know you're finding out that your parents are imperfect people they are adults they're doing the best they can now imagine that turned up to 11 that is john all right that that existential crisis

of your parents don't know what they're doing yeah john's parents really didn't know what they were doing none of them not because they were dead they couldn't know what they were doing well that's true but well even before they just they were like lol i know we're gonna run away yeah liana really didn't know she she made a choice. And I think it's so important to point out, like, Lyanna made this decision, and we're going to hear a lot in his class chapters. And Jon and Ygritte, especially, there's a lot framing there that really tells us a lot about what Rhaegar and Lyanna was probably like, just some different nods toward it. And yeah, Lyanna was so young. Rhaegar was an adult male and liana was 14 15 16 she died at age 16 this all started at age 14 and that doesn't excuse obviously her being held responsible for some of her actions but at the same time it doesn't really you know it's not you can't just shit on the 14 15 year old girl because she made this mistake she obviously kind of paid for it yeah rhaegar was like he was 21 it's not it's not the best no i mean i make horrible decisions i'm still yeah but he's still old

he was still old enough to be like you know there are 21 years old you know like his dad he was literally yeah who was dad and just like yeah yeah he needed to have like thought this through a little better yeah he really could have yeah but i mean hey maybe maybe john inherited some of that too you know think about it think about it yeah the shield hall up in castle black don't announce um desertion in front of everyone you know whatever yeah there's uh i kind of forget that like you know that happens all that we have so much to get to with john god it's a whole arc indeed 10 arcs so many arcs i'm really excited it's not even a whole arc we started out with a character that did technically have a whole arc you know yeah uh well i mean he dies at the end so oh what's that

book you like that is actually one of my favorite book series the john dies at the end series not about a song of ice and fire still really good highly recommend it for those of you that read i know obviously this is a podcast that is based around the original tv series that was adapted into books so i'm glad you guys are sticking around for that. Yep. And if you want to stick around with us, be sure to follow us on social media. You can find us at Girls Gone Canon on Twitter or shoot us an email at

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