Girls Gone Canon Cast - ASOIAF Episode 50 - AGOT Jon VIII Ft. JoeMagician

Episode Date: May 3, 2019

""Then Lord Eddard is a man in ten thousand. Most of us are not so strong. What is honor compared to a woman's love? What is duty against the feel of a newborn son in your arms … or the memory of a brother's smile? Wind and words. Wind and words. We are only human, and the gods have fashioned us for love. That is our great glory, and our great tragedy.""   Passage song: Whitesand - My Spirit is Free Featuring special guest, JoeMagician! Check out his YouTube channel here: https://www.youtube.com/JoeMagician Intro by Anton Langhage --- Aemon the Dreamer: The Fall of the Targaryens by JoeMagician Eliana's twitter: https://twitter.com/arhythmetric Eliana's reddit account: https://www.reddit.com/user/glass_table_girl Eliana's blog: https://themanyfacedblog.wordpress.com/ Chloe's twitter: https://twitter.com/liesandarbor Chloe's blog: www.liesandarborgold.com

Hello and welcome to episode 50 of Girls Gone Canon, John 8 in a Game of Thrones. I am one of your hosts, Chloe. You know me from Twitter as at Liza Narber or Tumblr and at my blog, LizaNarberGold.com. And I am another one of your hosts, Eliana. You probably know me though as GlassTableGirl on the A Song of Ice andFire subreddit, on the Maester Monthly Podcast, or maybe as Arithmetic on Twitter. But, speaking of the Maester Monthly Podcast, but also it being episode 50, I can't inhale, actually,

further. I tried. I was like, that's my lung capacity. I'm doing this. You might recognize him. We've talked about him in the past uh a couple weeks ago we just talked about his great piece on weirwoods it is joe magician oh my god it's me you guys it's you i made it i'm on the big time on girls oh my god he's like running up the stairs right now high-fiving yeah that's basically what i do i give lots of high fives while running that's my whole life basically i could see you i could

see you doing that wow i didn't even know you recently i took an arrow to the knee it's fine whatever i run to chase after the bus because sometimes i can see it and it's about to pull up to the stop i'm like i'm gonna make it i'm gonna make it and i feel like a magical girl from uh some anime matt what are you working on lately what's new on your youtube channel tell us where we can okay so chat man running joke i have way too many titles and i probably should do less things but i do all the things apparently i've got my youtube channel youtube.com slash joe magician i've been doing a lot of uh show content um while this is going on going on i did the theory about like yes symbol crazy thing mean that he was doing that one that one was pretty well received i did one on jenny's song which shakespeare oh my god shakespeare thrones uh sang on it and played the

cello it was just like the most magical thing. And for all you out there, I finished Killing of a Ranger Part 2. It's out there. You can watch it. It's done. And it has a lot to do with this chapter we're going to talk about. Yes, please do. Tell us a little about it. Or are you going to say it throughout the episode? can just i can talk about a little bit right now um so it was mostly it's mostly a show thing um because like john's story has not ended in the in the books we're pretty close to the end in this

one and i talked about the idea of like the old way that they've introduced like single combat and lords fighting each other and like lord of the rings and how this might tie up john's story as like a parallel of waymar in the opening prologue and turns out i was absolutely fucking right except it was theon instead of john in the show the exact scenario i described happened with theon in his death sequence in the show yeah which felt good i got that part right not john though i but i did see i did see that when i was watching it and i think you're spot on goddamn nailed it yeah uh and who knows i think those elements might still be there obviously in the story well the fun thing about the theory is it actually works almost basically as well in the books as the show i just use a lot of show content

because it's the show season so i like I pulled the videos instead of the quotes. But I think it works just as well in the books. Maybe better. Well, it's nice to have the visual. It's nice to have the visual. Visuals are nice, guys. I learned how to do them. You can actually see stuff on my YouTube videos now. It's not just still images. Hell yeah. Well, we'll link your YouTube channel

and anything else to find you on the internet will be in the description of this episode. So make sure you check that out, you guys. And Eliana and I just came back from a crazy weekend. We're getting this episode out a little later than we wanted to for patrons. We just came back from Ice and FireCon. Yes, we did. I know that Joe Magician, a.k.a. Matt.

I'm going to call you Matt from now on because that's how I know you. Especially because there's a Matt in the chapter now on because that's how I know you. Especially because there's a Matt in the chapter too. It is! It's you! The sword! The sword! The sword! I did see that and I thought of you. I was like, I hope Matt reads this. Oh my gosh. Oh, I saw it. I felt so seen.

I was like, George, you knew. You knew in advance. I would read this one day and this would be my favorite chapter. Wow, foreshadowing. Actually, I think it might be my favorite chapter. Because of that? Because you knew in advance i would read this one day and this would be my favorite chapter wow foreshadowing and actually i think it might be my favorite chapter because of that because you're in it yes i am that self-centered eliana no it's because of amen i know him yeah it's because of amen actually jr jr grew on me in this one a lot this conversation was really good it was there's a lot really good about this uh this this chapter but yeah ice and fire con was as always incredibly fun uh you mentioned shakespeare

of thrones and she also brought her cello that's actually how i recognized her as she was walking in i was like hey are you i i didn't really like really recognize her face because people look different on video and whatever and stuff. I knew it was her because she had her cello and she would bust it out every now and then. She also played Jenny's song a couple of times at the con. I'm really bummed because we actually...

I lost my voice after the musical Friday. It actually wasn't the musical that I lost my voice during because that was pre-recorded. But it was after the musical because after the Ice and Fire Con musical that's lost my voice during because that was pre-recorded uh but it was after the musical because after the ice and fire con musical that's put on by volunteers and staff and friends uh after that was over somebody drank a shit ton of wine and it was like it was like a demon was released after that musical because we weren't allowed to drink for two days basically

like we had to wait until night time to drink but after we were released from the musical it was like somebody gave someone a lot of wine and then they led a bunch of chants that all started with the queen in the north all around the convention and i don't know who that was but whoever it was was exercising a demon and i lost my voice you can still kind of hear it right now i'm not as full as i usually am um it was me it was me the exercise that demon it was me leading queen in the north chance around the convention with people yep that was you yeah that was me it was a wild weekend uh i'm not gonna lie chloe your voice might be more manly than mine at this point well it's hard you have such smooth dulcet tones people say that about you i am drinking some

whiskey i'm hoping for the best here but yeah uh that musical after that i lost my voice and shakespeare thrones and i had talked about possibly doing something in the performance contest where i would have had to go head to head and be a rival of my wife eliana because she won the performance contest with scat from davos fingers and uh one of our buddies seth this weekend yeah and like seth and scad actually act so that was intimidating but it was super fun i just love them it it was a great time we also because you know scad has a heart of gold as seth and i were like watching everyone go up for the performance we were all like oh well good thing we don't have

to go after that for things like that we're like, good thing we don't have to go after that for things like that. We're like, oh god, but what if we have to go after that? And all these things because we didn't know when we were slated. And then Scad was like, you guys, it's not a competition. Just have fun with it. And I was like, yeah, you're right. So we just had fun. And then turns out it actually was a competition.

And no one told me this. It was great. We were outside of the closing ceremonies and eliana's standing there chatting my ear off about stuff like she does you know she's so chatty girl's gone chatting i'm just kidding you were though we were chatting and then all of a sudden i just hear out of the corner of my ear because i'm also like keeping an eye to make sure what's happening in there in the closing ceremonies in case i'm needed for something uh and i hear them go uh the winners are scad and then i look i knew right when they said that i was like oh shit that means eliana won uh scad seth and eliana and eliana for the scene with uh stannis

melisandre and davos and so i was so excited i was like you have to go in there and she's like wait what i was like why is she telling me to go into the room what's happening and i was just like just go like i wasn't really helpful and i didn't know do i go in front but like what i okay my biggest regret though is like as i was coming back i thought it was like the wolf that was on the ground but turns out it was pat doherty's like siberian husky and i was i wanted to pet it but i'm you know obviously a little hesitant about just going in and petting a wolf because they're not dogs right and i was afraid like is its wolfish instincts gonna kick in if i try to just like pet it out of nowhere and turns out it was the husky and now i really regret not just sitting down and

i never got to pet the dog okay that's it hopefully next year that's the saddest story dude oh my god matt you would have loved him he was so big and so fluffy one of the best parts of the conventions on the upside outside of your sadness over the pupper the doggo the good boy one of the best parts was doing our patron stretch goal live stream

yes it was a great time and you know it took us a little bit to get it up but I don't know it was so fun having everyone there to just discuss the episode with. Yeah, we pulled in so many people. I'm not going to lie, everyone. It was the greatest watch party. Like, it was the greatest Game of Thrones watch party.

Yeah, there were a hundred nerds in this room. Everyone, like, we watched season eight, episode two first, the Night of the Seven Kingdoms, and,s and there wasn't a dry eye in the house when Brienne was knighted and Jenny's song and all of us were just sitting there and it was beautiful. It was so beautiful and I got really mad. I told everyone to shut up during Jenny's song because they were talking. I was like, can you shut up? This is very

important. And then when Brienne was getting knighted, people were talking and I was like, shh, this is very important. This is history. You need to shut your mouth. There are important things happening on that screen. I was very mad. People aren this is very important. This is history. Like, you need to shut your mouth. There are important things happening on that screen. I was very mad. People aren't religious like I am, I guess.

Look, I'm into Sundays. It's a holy day. But we do have the live stream. It will be up on YouTube probably by the time you're listening to this for the public. So check it out. There's a good amount of background noise here and there because there were like 100 nerds milling about behind us as we did the live stream, all chattering about the episode. So we'll release that for you guys as well. But on top of that, we want to do a Q&A episode for season eight, episode three, and do predictions for episode four and going on in the series and the endgame and what it might mean going forward.

We're going to record that this week on Saturday. So if you're listening to this, it's probably going to be Friday for you if you're not a patron. So check it out, send us a message or a tweet or get on our patron and comment or even an email. And we'll hopefully have that out for you Sunday before the episode.

So that's exciting. And of course, as a reminder, though, we will not be having our Jon 9 and 10 episode out this coming next week so you will not be getting Jon 9 and 10

episode depending on who you are on the 8th, 9th or 10th there will be no Jon episode we are taking some time to recover and also have some otherth, there will be no Jon episode. We are taking some time to recover and also have some other exciting news that will be announced eventually, shortly. And

our Game of Thrones episode will definitely be out, though, so don't worry about that. Yes. Episode 4. Yeah, we are still going to record and have out on the 7th you will have our reactions to season 8 episode 4

so keep an eye out for that just no Jon yet and then we are also going to take a quick break after the season ends on the 22nd, 23rd and 24th so there will be no episodes then either yes you will get our last Game of Thrones-y

episode for a little bit and we'll return no episodes then. Yes, you'll get our last Game of Thrones-y episode for a little bit. And we'll return to you next week. For like forever? No, not forever. We might do other things. Don't be a spoil sport. But yeah, we'll take a break that week and we'll return after that with some exciting news. And don't forget to check out Patrons

$5 and up. The patron episode that was just released with Manu, Manuclear Bomb on Twitter, from A Scene of Ice and Fire. We went all the way back. Let's start back to the very beginning. And we did episode one, season one. So check that out if you

haven't. Eliana, are you singing? Is that happening? Back to when the earth, the sun, the stars were all... That's also a throwback to our first episode. I'm coming clean. I'm coming clean. Yeah, so lightning round.

What did we miss between John 7 and John 8? Bran 6. The car starts to arrive and Bran prays in the godswood where Osha warns him of the others and tells him to convince his brother to go north, but he's too late. Also, Bran doesn't know that it takes one day to defeat the Night's King. Yeah, it's one stabby stab. You know, it's just a little too late.

Okay. Daenerys VI, a wine merchant, attempts to poison Daenerys, which compels Khal Drogo to attack the Seven Kingdoms. Oh. Oh, I'm sorry. Catelyn VIII, Catelyn and Robb refine their war plans after meeting in Moat Cailin. Exciting stuff. War plans. Jeff's stuff. This is frigidly fish talk.

Yeah. That's his chapter right there. Of course, it's a Catelyn chapter. Well, I mean, she's done nothing wrong except for that one thing ever. Tyrion VII, escorted by the mountain men of the veil tywin and tyrian discuss war plans again a jeff chapter and offer rich rewards if they fight in the oncoming battle and then you have sansa five which is you know one of our chapters right sansa pleads mercy for her father at joffrey's first court, holding after Barristan Selmy is dismissed from the Kingsguard. Gasp.

And then from Eddard 15. Eliana, get ready for this. I'm going to do another Matt's crazy movie quote and see if you can guess what it is. Oh, okay. It's, Dad, what's he doing? Oh, my God. Matt, what are you doing? Independence Day.

Oh, no. When that guy yells in doing? Independence Day! Oh! No. When that guy yells in the bunker and what's-his-name is flying the airplane up into the thing? Nope. No? Sorry, wrong podcast. That's for the listeners. You guys will get it after I told you. Oh god.

Catalan 9. Catalan negotiates crossing the Green Fork with Walder Frey. And that brings us to Jon VIII, where Jaor Mormont gives Jon a gift from his ancestral home, and Maester Aemon explains his empathies when it comes to family loyalty, revealing that he too- Oh, wait, sorry, not he too, he don't know that yet. Revealing that he is a targaryen by conversation's end so jay or morma and john snow open this chapter discussing their well-being since that whole crazy white situation we just dealt with uh john's hand is bandaged and he's lost mobility in that hand currently maester amon has given him milk of the poppy and it's giving him terrible

dreams and when at last he did sleep he dreamt and that was even worse in the dream the course he fought had blue eyes black hands and his father's face but he dared not tell more about that which this reminds me a lot that right around this time in the books uh close to i mean obviously we just had edward's last chapter and uh soon he's about to die it's similar kind of to that dream that brings bran and Rick into the crypts, right? They're all having these starkly dreams. Yeah, and seeing what Ned's fate is about to be. And, you know, you bring that up. And also, like, it's kind of interesting, like, the way the whole book is structured.

It's kind of like George thinks these things through, right? George thinks these things through, right? Because in Eddard 15, Ned is going in between like, he's going in between like sleep and nod because he's injured and in the dark. And so is John, because he also doesn't like those terrible dreams from the milk of the poppy. So you got some got some parallels maybe some thematic resonance is that some people thematic resonance no absolutely uh obviously we know there's a bajillion parallels with them and very interesting that he's uh he's getting

that milk of the poppy right now just like ned that's where ned is in the cells exactly and then one thing i liked go ahead i was gonna say one thing i particularly liked about this conversation is that on the end like the whole chapter is basically that john is not catching anything being said to him like there's tons of subtext being thrown at him by jr and amen and his friends and he's kind of in a place where he has like no F's left to give so normally a character who's very observant and sees through things everything's going over his head so Mormont asks him about his hand but Mormont already knows that his hand will be fine eventually it's it's just kind of this weird guy talk thing where you ask

about something innocuous because you're two tough guys. So you can't really talk about your emotions and your feelings and what just happened to you because they went through a traumatic experience. Both of them almost died. John's going through emotional turmoil from joining the Night's Watch and Rob going south and Ned being arrested and what's happening with his sisters. But J.R. can't ask that. So he asked about his hand instead. But John's kind of a bit of a dummy here and thinks jr is literally asking about his hand well it's funny because john is doing that like

this whole chapter like you truly get to understand that you know nothing john snow especially in this chapter because he doesn't understand the things he's hearing right like jr is telling him stuff and he's like i know don't get it and i'm just pissed right now and amon's like i'm telling you all these things listen with your ears boy and he's like no not my dad and it's like john you're not my dad literally says that he said he's like you're not my dad it reminds me of eliana won't get this uh but in hamilton there's a scene between george washington and uh hamilton where george washington is like kind of like treating him like his son he's like son and hamilton's like i'm not your

son and that's all i think of with jr mormont and john like it's always like son i'm not your son so i love it that's what i hear oh he's so moody i love it he's very moody and the best part about this about this chapter is that everything that happens to him from beginning to end has basically been scripted. J.R. and Eamon. What'd you say? From Stark to finish? Oh. Stark to finish.

Eamon and J.R. basically planned out both these conversations. All their friends knew it was going to happen. They knew he was going to get the sword. They knew he was going to go talk to them, basically, in that order. Only Jon believes that this is a genuine interaction he's having. Everyone everyone else knows it's like he's being led around by his nose they're just like he's such a small boy i do love that in this too especially the conversation as well i mean as we learned sam is the reason for all this like he and it really kind of uh it etches that outline for when sam goes behind his back with the Lord Commander stuff later on as well.

The children, the adults on the Night's Watch are just like, the children are so predictable. And they're just like putting their head in their hands. And they're just like, oh my god, what are they doing? While they're discussing the rangers that came back without Benjen, Janna's like, was there a raven about my father?

But it was only a fair sense on these dismissal and escape. Was that Jon for a second? Jon Snow, are you here? It gets better every single time, I feel like. What do you think? It really does. I love your Jon voices. You know that.

We were just discussing our favorite voices this weekend of ours, and this is a good one. There was a subtle mix there between Kit and Jon. Kit and Jon? Not the same character. The Kit and Jon umber? I did love this little passage where Jaor

is talking about what's happening with the Iron Throne and Barristan's dismissal and how brave and noble barrison is and i can't believe it and he goes we have white shadows in the woods and unquiet dead stalking our halls and a boy sits the iron throne he sat in disgust the laven the laven the raven laughed shrilly boy boy boy boy okay foreshadowing yeah there's also a funny part here um you guys were talking about this in your previous john episodes that you can read all these back knowing rlj so if john was recognized as who

he really is he probably would be the same boy on the iron throne joy jr is scoffing at at this very moment oh absolutely but just way more emo he's yeah he's scoffing at the literal prince the guy that maybe should probably be king to his face and nobody knows it literally all of john's chapters though only the bird only the birds now just blood raven and then john asks about his sisters because there's a lot of things that people don't know in this chapter like how are the stark girls right and there's been no word of them just like there was no word of his brother riding south until

as we discussed earlier Samuel Charlie giving him the news it troubled him more than he could say Rob was marching and he was not no matter how often John told himself that this place that his place was here now his new brothers on the wall he still felt

craven were you convincing john yeah yeah um mildly unrelated but i'm gonna i'm gonna voice my opinions anyway because this is my podcast sam apparently repeatedly constantly telling john like i shouldn't be doing this i really shouldn't be doing this as he continues to do it and tell john about it reminds me of that scene and 27 dresses you know when when Katherine Heigl and James Marsden finally hook up in the car, and apparently the whole time she just keeps going,

like, I never do this. I never do this. That's the take. It's a good take. There's also some interesting parts of this conversation. For one thing, that John is obsessed with what's happening with Ned throughout this entire chapter. He basically does not stop thinking about Ned. conversation um for one thing that john is obsessed with what's happening with ned throughout

this entire chapter he basically does not think stop thinking about ned and then jr i'm not sure if consciously or unconsciously basically steps in and john has a chance to talk to him he's getting out a lot of his anger at what's happening to him and but also kind of this weird anger that he feels like he's getting like the walmart version of the stark legacy that comes up later with the sword and like what it means to be a brother of the night night's watch and also if you think about it sort of as a meta level so he goes from jr to aim and so he's going from basically a character of ice to a character of fire at the wall telling him to stay on the wall and do his duty i also like the there's another part to this that um like i said earlier jr obviously

knows john's hand's gonna be fine because we find out later that he's been getting the sword ready for him so but john is essentially being lied to almost his entire conversation by jr and actually john picks up on it in his one moment of insight well and it's interesting what you say there because it is that kind of that punch of like jr is making sure john's nice and drugged and it's interesting what you say there because it is that kind of that punch of like jay or is making sure john's nice and drugged and here's a nice little sword boy and he knows what's happening with his family i mean he's getting all this information with him like you said and he's like all right i'm gonna give you the sword john's gonna be he should be happy and grateful and really pleased about it and then he sends them off to amon you know gets sam plants the information and that's the thing it's very like

you know sam would tell him jr knows sam would tell him amon knows sam would tell him like there's no way sam would not tell john they know this they wouldn't set it up that way otherwise yeah they knew that he would tell him just like he does a bunch of other shit in the series and uh then they knew they could kind of do their thing and say, you're one of us now, kid. Like, you need to make your loyalties known. We need to trust you. There's actually a moment where JR kind of bellowed out loud, just kind of like, oh, why does everybody know everything before me? And Jon just kind of comments and turns like, hmm, he doesn't seem to want an answer to that.

It's like, like yeah no shit oh well i do i like that insight it is a typical guy conversation where it's kind of like asking about how's the job doing how's the wife doing how's your car you're not actually asking about any of those things you're asking yeah you're asking about how they're doing personally yeah yeah and yes i do like that male perspective of like this is how guy conversations are yeah thank you for being here that we always want to have diversity on this uh this podcast it gets a little gets a little girly up in here you know too oh no you gotta have a few more late bros hanging out so jay or is curious about how long john is going to take to recover because he wants to give him a gift that he can use and the gift of course is a firebolt he could throw away his nimbus 2001

finally yes this is what i've been waiting for for so long it honestly it's so funny this is very ya right like it's so fellowship each character has their character trait pip is hermione gren is ron the dumb one sam is neville alicer is snape uh it's just very set up like a youth fiction novel a young adult novel and i do like it because a lot of these characters especially like aria and sansa's plots they are forced right away to grow up so fast and yes john is being forced to grow up still on the wall but he's also forging these friendships and we don't really see for example sansa doesn't get to forge friendships like these right in her chapters she doesn't get to have friends the friends she has use her for her claim and sell her off to other people uh aria ends up getting stuck

with you know the brotherhood for a bit and she does make friends before the brotherhood which i think is really nice and that's kind of her little youth fictiony bits of her also horrific horrific plot uh harrenhal i wouldn't call fun happy youth fiction times but you know it's a it's interesting to see what the starks do when they're put in these situations where they're allowed to have friends or not even looking at rob rob isn't allowed to really have friends especially after theon yeah and i mean that isolation is like a big thing that happens to a lot of these young people and they learn to cope with that in different ways i want to point out though that you said that pip is hermione and gren is ron and i think what you're also saying is that my Pip and Grun ship is canon.

So it's Grip. Grip. Grip. That's a title. That's a fanfic title somewhere. I think the title is Thick as a Castle Wall. With two C's. That's also there.

It's Jere mormon's family sword and he is giving it to john because you remember that guy jorah so his son dishonored the entire house brought dishonor upon his whole house with his actions and he left the sword behind when he fled so today i was talking uh to poor quentin him and braby Fish. I don't know if you've heard of them. They have a little cast called Not A Cast. They're doing an episode on Danny soon, and they were looking at this episode, and there's this quote from Jorah when he's saying to Danny, you know, like, hey, we

have these kids left. We could sell these kids. These boys are, you know, if they're under 10, they're going to be worth more. These ones are going to be worth less. We could sell it for gold for a ship. And I'm like, yep, Jorah's great. great great character jorah's a nice guy though i don't know why kalisi doesn't like him uh yeah he's there's nothing that you know gets me more wet than people trying to sell off children it was just gross when i realized like that oh that's such a gross like line um yeah but i do love the passage that comes after this with the Lord Commander.

I think it's very important. When John had been Bran's age, he had dreamed of doing great deeds. And as boys always did, the details of his feats changed with every dreaming. But quite often he imagined saving his father's life. Afterward, Lord Eddard would declare that John had proven himself a true Stark and place ice in his hand even then he had known it was only a child's folly no bastard could ever hope to wield a father's sword even the memory shamed him what kind of man stole his own brother's birthright i have no right to this he thought no more than to ice he twitched his burned fingers feeling a throb of pain deep under the skin.

My lord, you honor me, but- Spare me your buts, boy. Lord Mormont interrupted. I would not be sitting here if it not for you and that beast of yours. You fought bravely, and more to the point. You fought quickly. Fire.

Yes, dammit. We ought to have known. We ought to have remembered. The long night has come before. Oh, 8,000 years is a good while to be sure yet if the night's watch does not remember who will chime the talkative raven hello are you happy are you content i i actually really am i think this sword is really interesting it reminds me a lot the whole sword scene reminds me a ton of his dreams on the crypts uh he's obviously you

know this sword rejects not his heritage it's not the thing he wants it's the same thing as when stannis offers him winterfell and he thinks you know i could do it but it's not mine i'm not allowed to have it it's it's that line of you know later on we're gonna read eventually when uh it's that line of you know like i'm aiming the dragon knight i'm the lord of winterfell no you're not you can't be the lord of winterfell you're a bastard you know uh it's a symbol of his heritage but not it's something he could never grasp it's like he could never have it's not ice and he could never have it as much as he has you're not a real stark and of course it's this very very heavy-handed writing now that we know the truth you know later after you reread you realize what his true birth is you know he's always had the rights to all of

these swords he's had the rights to any sword this goddamn man wants oh it's true it's um it's one of those weird things where as john progresses as a character his internal fantasies are usually they evolve from being given to taking things he really like wants to like in his darkest fantasies he wants to beat the crap out of rob and take winterfell from him he doesn't want eddard to really give it to him and that's part of i think his anger in this episode is it feels like he's being given things that he thinks he doesn't deserve he wants to earn them he wants the choice the choice to be a real stark and he's never it's very much like theon in that way like we just talked about in all theons chapters that he has always wanted to be a stark he wanted to prove

himself he wanted to you know like make ned proud he wanted to feel honorable he wants that legacy that ned has and he wants to carry it on but he never was allowed to yeah and it and a lot of the book is about choices having consequences and each one has consequences right we see that a little later on of the consequences of choosing to stay at the wall from maester amon and we see also the consequences of choosing to march on winterfell and take it through theon's perspective so there's no necessarily right answer there there are different kinds of answers and along with um you know the sword being a symbol of his heritage as you've all pointed out it's also i think john in this moment um and i don't mean this to be as humorous as it is but i'm gonna say it that the grip was virgin leather

soft and black as yet unstained by sweat or blood. And, like, that is who Jon is in this moment. Like, I mean, yeah, he's killed some wights, but he's very much still a green boy, right? He's a virgin not only sexually, but, like, to battle, and a lot of what life is about and not yet hardened. And, of course, as many people are going to point out it's a bastard sword whatever and it's also lighter than ice just as john describes himself he is slimmer and more lithe uh than rob and i also think it's kind of this this is definitely

just pulling this out of nowhere but i'm going to just say it anyway because i think it's kind of fun that because of the damage to his right hand he grips it with his left um and it it reminds me uh because someone else somewhere on the internet i forgot who was bringing up again that maizey williams switched to using her left hand for a lot of the practices because aria is also left-handed so in a way it's like john having a connection again with his sister through the swords but also of course heralds back like that the injury of hand sword hands i think is a thing that runs throughout the story and how that plays with identity you'll see it of course with jamie but like that's it that's the extreme case it's interesting too that you see it with the opposite mirror of catalan's hand as well uh after the attack oh yeah he also loses something i always

notice and i feel like people forget she has very limited mobility in that hand. She thinks about it all through her Storm of Swords chapters. So later on when Jon is always flexing his hand, I feel like it happens more and more in each book. Like a Dance with Dragons, you're like, do you do anything else, Jon, besides send your friends away and flex your hand? But it also kind of reminds me of Lyanna with the idea that Arya also is left-handed and the slim sword. And I wonder if that's also kind of meant to remind you of Liana eventually. That it's that connection, like you said, to Arya. It's that connection to being a Stark and him actually being part Stark.

Yeah. He's still connected with his family. He's got a wolf after all. He does have a wolf. Oh! with his family he's got a wolf after all oh he does have a wolf and oh and um i i really liked looking at this exact moment because it's something you actually see a lot in tv and movies where somebody takes an important object and slams it down on the table in front of you and waits to see what you see what you do with it because as i pointed out earlier this conversation was set up

by jr he knows that he knows Jon's hand's going to be fine. He knows he's going to be able to use the sword. And he slams it down in front of him anyway knowing how much Jon probably wants ice, knowing how much he wants glory that he audibly complained about not being a ranger. And also the fact that he

has made it known to everybody that he recently almost deserted to go down south and fight so jr gives him a sword and say all right what are you going to do with this sword this is the most valuable sword you will ever have you could use it here on the wall and have your honor or you could take it and run south and be somebody on the battlefield like a member of like that people write songs about in your brother's war but it's also kind of again when we take his targaryen lineage into effect you can also see his black fire and damon

black fire the giving a targaryen a valyrian steel sword has huge implications in george's world although jayward doesn't know that ironically because it's like you are in the north where the others are that are killing your men snowman snowman you're john snowman oh so john thinks about the white burning and he thinks on that nightmare and reflects on it once more yet in his nightmare he faced it again and this time the burning corpse wore lord eddard's features it was his father's skin that burst and blackened his father's eyes that ran liquid down his cheeks like jellied tears john did not understand why that should be or what it might mean but it frightened him more than he could say oh that's some horror i love it

that's some crazy stuff right there some classic germ horror i also like the questioning at the end of it this was something i picked up on while i was rereading john asked himself a lot of questions in this chapter mostly because he doesn't have the mental energy for it but it's like it's also george asking you basically a lot of your characters interpret their own dreams john is this one he's like all right what do you read or think so this was my take at it because i was so interested just honing in on george saying this is important why is it important and john has a lot of anger in this chapter because he has uh in his mind he has not joined the night's watch he has abandoned house stark he has given up his

family he's given up his brothers and his sisters and his father and even catalatelyn and Theon and to go sit at the wall while they fight and die. And when he sees Ned dying like that, it's because he's imagining that Eddard's going to die and Rob's going to die because of his actions, that he's not there to save him. Which works really well because in his first chapter, he thinks of himself as Daron the young dragon who died at 18 going south and conquering. It's like, Jon, we all know you have a really high opinion of yourself. And it's kind of adorable that in his subconscious, he thinks him being at the wall will be the difference between the Starks winning and losing. Mormont then asks Jon to accept the sword as payment, sort of, or thanks for saving his life. And Jon finally agrees. But he also thinks, he is not my father.

The thought leapt unbidden to Jon's mind. Lord Stark is my father. I will not forget him, no matter how many swords they give me. Yet he could scarcely tell Lord Mormont that it was another man's sword he dreamt of. Oh my. Another man's sword he dreamt of oh my another man's sword the virgin the virgin leather yeah again here this is um john instantly going to anger at his father where that that how he was treated how he was left to the side how he's treated as a bastard even though he desperately wants his attention and here is his father figure his new father figure his new ned handing him what he wants and he can't take it and especially because

just like in universe being given a valyrian steel sword even like besides being a targaryen is a huge deal tywin lancher has been a crusade his entire life to replace bright war he would give up all the gold and cash the rock for what john just got and he doesn't want it because what he really wants is his dad and he wants his approval which is kind of sweet yeah yeah and i mean that's that kind of idea is going to play into some of john's story later on but we'll get to that um oh this is also very similar to theon. Oh, absolutely. I like the desire to remember. The part that's super like Theon is that Theon desperately wants Ned's approval, but he always says he feels the sword between them. Jon feels that kind of separation too, although it's less obliquely violent. He still feels that.

he still feels that but no matter even though they get in this what they feel is mistreated by their by their surrogate father they still desperately want their attention and approval and it's interesting you say that sword between them quote because it's kind of the opposite for john it's catelyn between the sword and him uh that sword between them actually would go to him but he you know that stigma that caitlin has to him and that like you said he's mad at his dad and i do i'm just gonna move this up real quick i won't talk in depth depth but he's mad he's mad at him you know and he won't admit it because you can't admit being mad at honorable lord eddard you know his dad who he wants he wants to be like and he wants to just like become when he gets older and he like loves so much and he's mad at his dad and he's

coming to terms with that on the wall oh for sure the wrestling and like the the gift or approval of the father stuff that uh will echo later on in his story like it's a key part of what a hero struggles with in the hero's journey and um you know you were talking about the black fires earlier matt and i know that the black fires of course like whatever it doesn't matter that they're not conceived of until a few books later but um you know the repetition of like this idea of the sword and then sam's going to be reminded of heartsbane later on here like in in the previous chapters right when he talks about his own family history with randall charlie um as you were saying like there's a lot of significance to that um black fire has caused a lot of civil wars right like there's that idea that swords and inheritance and ruling and leadership

are all intertwined with one another and we see also through sam's stories like when he was no longer heir to horn hill he doesn't get hearts pain his younger brother dickon does like that was a thing that was intentionally withheld from him and then jorah when he stops being lord of bear island like the one fucking good thing that he ever does is like leave behind long claw i guess he does some stuff in this episode but whatever like i don't know that's a that's a different different drawer it really is a different drawer though um and then it goes back to jira but like as you you know as you say we should like kind of read some of this as like acceptance

but not like sam said in previous chapters talking to john that he's being groomed for command and you can kind of see how jr sees those things and john maybe or kind of hopes for john as being something like an heir or a future lord commander to the new house the knights watch and like yeah like john yearns for another sword and we see earlier on in the chapter he kind of goes like no bastard could ever hope to wield a father's sword even the memory shamed him what kind of man stole his own brother's birthright i have no right to this he thought no more than to ice and as you were saying there's like a lot of guilt and um you see some of those darker things fulfilled more in theon but i also kind of get these like biblical vibes here um very true like that struggle between brothers whereas here though like they're you know whether it's bastard or true born and we know sure that john is like a

turkey right now but he doesn't know that whatever but that idea of like birthright or like of acceptance and you see that um desire for like birthright and acceptance being wrapped up in one another in stories of like cain and abel and also in jacob and his sow and i feel like you're kind of getting some of those shades here and i think uh you and i talked a lot about that before in an episode that you had Matt where we talked about the second sons bastards and things like that in the story yeah that's actually

a Patreon exclusive thing for me which people can access where we talk really about this running theme of second sons bastards I think we called it cripples bastards and broken things Tyrion's line because it's the idea of grasping a sword, a.k.a. grasping violence, or Valyrian steel grasping magic in order to overthrow the trueborn. I mean, that's basically what we know about the myth version of the Night King, where it's implied heavily that he was actually Brandon Snow, an analog to Jon, and his brother, Brandon Stark, the Breaker, had to beat him.

And it's very much the relationship between Jon and actually, I mean, the obvious one is Rob. But also the rivalry between Theon and Jon pops up a lot. But in this moment, JR is basically adopting Jon. And he's telling him, you've done great. Everything you ever want, you can have it here at the Wall. And Jon can't accept that. He's saying, you've done great. Everything you ever want, you can have it here at the wall. And John can't accept that. He's saying, you're doing amazing, sweetie. Yeah, that's literally what this was.

He's like, you did so good. I'm going to give you a treasure worth more than a mountain. And John's like, I'm not worth that. John. It's very hard. That was that question George asked with the Ned dream. Why is John so angry? All of these things.

It's very, very complicated why Jon's so angry in this chapter. And puberty. Yeah, puberty. Puberty's a bitch. Yeah, absolutely. Emotions. They call the sword Longclaw. He's had the pommel changed out from a bear to a wolf, which we actually later find out his friends helped do.

Aw. And then Jon throws Jaor a bone, basically. And he says, you know, wolves have claws as much as bears. And the old bear just kind of smiles like, hey, maybe you're on board a little bit. Thanks, new son. Aw. Cute. So not only is Jon getting the sword as a present but mormont is giving him yet another

present alicer thorn is sailing away to take the zombie hand to king's landing which is a clever plot that they actually stole from the original source work game of thrones who did it on a way larger scale and it had more intrigue and meaning it really was just a more cinematic experience wow wow thank you all right i'll be here all day mormon of course does this purposefully and then he warns john that i didn't forget about that incident in the hall you know like where john goes and tries to wail on alistair thorne worth it hashtag worth it that's why i'm giving you this yeah i was actually he's like i too wanted to do that i mean that's

what it means i i think i mean that is it is actually a bit of subtext yeah he did smile he's like i mean yeah he's kind of dick but anyway he sends john then he's like all right i want you to go get me some wine make sure it's a good wine make sure there's a shit ton of spices all right do it right yeah make sure my food doesn't suck. Maester Aemon will talk to you while you wait for it to be the best. Don't give me any fucking mutton. And then the guards all compliment him on his new steel.

Sick, sick sword, bruh. I love the passage that comes with that because the guards are actually being like completely sincere. They're like, wow, you really deserve it. Like, that's awesome. Like, you were badass last week. Or the other the other day. You fucking saved everyone in the universe. This white took out five people already. One of the whites, not this one. The other one did. But there's this passage.

He knew he should be pleased, yet he did not feel it. His hand ached, and the taste of anger was in his mouth, though he could not have said who he was angry with or why. Hot take, you're mad at your dad, kid. The entire book. You learn that, you know, your parents sometimes don't hold up to what you realize they should. You're mad at him.

You're mad at him for the way you were treated. It all comes out. And in fact, speaking of youth fiction, it reminds me of Sisterhood of the traveling pants when one of the characters carmen goes to visit her dad who got a divorce from her mom and yada yada yada he has a whole new life with a whole new family and that's kind of what happens to john right ned gets a whole new life with cadeline and her kids and he doesn't say shit to her about how she treats john even though all he did was be born, you know, like he didn't ask for this shit.

But Carmen visits her dad. And finally, at the end of the summer, like she leaves, she gets into it because she just doesn't fit in anymore with his family. And she finally calls him from home when she goes home to her mom's and she just like, lets him have it.

She's like, I'm mad at you. Like, why do you, why were you ashamed of me? Were you ashamed of me growing up? Like, were you ashamed of me?

And that's what John's going through. You know, it's like all this shit that now that ned's in the fucking black cells he can't say this to him he doesn't he'll never get to know he'll never get to talk to him he can't go save him but he also like is mad at him and it's like he'll never get this closure from him that he needs yeah it was very kind of jr to stand for Ned there, to really take Jon's anger and really not acknowledge it. Yeah. And I mean, like, this entire dilemma of Jon's, right, the way that he feels about Ned, it's always been there. It's a big part, of course, of Game of Thrones. I think it takes a little, it's still there, but kind of more of a backseat as opposed to, like, this with ned like and especially with ned being captured and as you said like there's that fear that there won't ever be that closure like that's why this is like very much the climax of john's a game of thrones storyline like

this dilemma the the part with the actions and the whites that's like one chapter but this whole choice that he has to make spans three chapters like this is a huge deal for john um and then as soon as john hits the granary doors ron hermione and neville aka pip gren and sam are all waiting to look at his new broomstick oh oh look at this quote that we have here oh wait i show up in the books you guys i'm the books. I'm so happy about this. I couldn't believe this. I was actually, I'd never even know this. I was reading this last night to get ready for this.

I'm like, I'm there. I'm in it. It's you. So Matt, the sword. Matt insisted. The others took up the chant. The sword. The sword.

The sword. With it. John unsheathed Longclaw and showed it to them, turning it this way and that so they could admire it. The bastard blade glittered in the pale sunlight, dark and deadly. Valyrian steel, he declared solemnly, trying to sound as pleased and proud as he ought to have felt. John, you're such a drama queen. I'm really trying to embody that when I do drama should have been like valyrian steel oh my gosh that's like real sassy actually that's how jaffer would set it that's true you're right you're right and but he's just like performing it um i know that we're all appreciating matt here but i also

really want to appreciate the character toad who has a line like a few a little bit earlier who says that you know john's like what do you guys want to see and toad's like we want to see your rosy butt cheeks and i mean like there's there's a lot of fans who do want to see john's i guess cheeks but chloe and i share a similar take chloe please enlighten the listeners the listeners. Yes. My big take is that John's ass is a boy ass. And Jamie Lannister's ass is a man ass. It's a daddy ass. Yeah, that's canon. That's canon.

Does that mean Jamie wears like dad jeans? Sure. Oh, he wears them. I hope so. Yeah. Okay. Sometimes he doesn't wear them too. And it's even better then.

Yep. Yep. Okay. Sometimes he doesn't wear them too, and it's even better then. Yep. Yep. And then Pip jokes that Jon is the first person to get a sword for burning down a tower. Pretty funny. And then Jon thinks on how the undead Jaffer had killed Jeremy Riker and four other men.

Yikes. Oops. Yeah. He takes off and he goes to get that supper for J.R. and he thinks his friends meant well but they did not understand it was not their fault truly they had not had to face author they had not seen the pale glow of those dead blue eyes had not felt the cold of those dead black fingers we get it harry voldemort's coming uh it's very like oh arrogant hero and this is actually why like when I was younger reading Harry Potter books I hated Harry

I was like you're boring you just fool yourself and boring we get it your life is so hard orphan boy and sometimes I'm like John come on but it's funny because he has seen death I mean he's seen it up close he's the first character to really like see see it and deal with it right and it goes on close he's the first character to really like see see it and deal with

it right uh and it goes on like he's the only person that really takes it seriously him and sam yeah and then as john reaches his cell ghost continues to be cute as fuck and huge and fluffy and again i have many regrets in life even though i was just saying i have no regrets in life the other day i do have at least one and john thinking is about it um and john is thinking on when ghost finds him and then john is thinking back to when he first found ghost he was all alone he thought apart from the others in the litter he was different so they drove him out and obviously john is thinking about himself here and we're gonna quote uh riverdale in case you haven't noticed i'm weird i'm a weirdo i don't fit in and don't want to fit in have you ever seen you have a stupid hat on head oh my god that's real john hen like jughead oh my gosh

oh oh john in that moment i think it's funny that he's also kind of projecting on that because ghost was not driven out he's the only one with its eyes open so it was actually better than the other direwolves in that moment it had gone out with its eyes open into the world and left its litter mates behind just kind of interesting uh i also this is part of a theory i wrote a long time ago uh that it's called it has a stupid name it's called deus ex lupo and it was talking about basically how ghost is his own character like almost like human level intelligence basically and this is one of the quotes that i used because so john here confirms that um he heard ghost make a noise and then he turned around and saw him went to go pick him up

but you actually go back to brand one where you see this um there's actually tons of noise around there the horses are all clattering over the bridge the little direwolf pups are making noise everybody's talking so john no one like nobody heard ghost really just john and he was like in the middle of the group turns around sees him and goes over to it so it's one of those kind of moments of magic and destiny I think that John was riding away and ghost sort of like reached out or somebody reached out and poked John in his in like his magical brain and said go back you forgot your wolf I just looked to just for funsies because I wanted to check uh check the chapter and just see if there's anything else in there that had anything to do with like mists or fog or anything but there isn't and then it's like obviously it wouldn't because it's from brand but wouldn't it be cool if we just got like a gray

mist in a john version of that chapter so you know it was totally blood raven fucking with it uh there is uh the leaves rustling which sometimes are the green seers in my theory I actually suggest that it was ghost calling out to John because they have such a strong connection and that makes me think of like that lady quote you know where Sansa like whimpers and thinks of lady after she dreams of her I like that passage a lot though because

it's just very John that is who he is even from the very first line that like, he's a runt. He's small. He's not like the rest. He's white with red eyes like the old gods. It's interesting that it connects it to him. And I love the transitional qualities of that phrase.

Because as they say, apart from the others in the litter, he was different. So they drove him out. Sam shows up. So it's obvious that great just boom there's sam which this quote is also kind of about uh which explains their brothership and their relationship and why they shared that close bond john asks if sam wants to see the sword but that makes sam think of his father's sword and he declines uh that would probably bring up some horrible memories so instead he tells him that maester amon wants to see him and john is immediately angry and cold with him because he knows sam told amon about telling john about rob how dare and i know

betrayal oh no betrayal sam told him every secret he's not supposed to tell sam said one back he's like how dare you yeah so john takes off and he goes to maester amen and amen starts having john help him do chores right he's like feed the ravens with this meat and he's just like ah i'll tell you about crows and ravens which i love actually the difference uh it reminds me as he discusses the difference between the ravens and crows it reminds you of that line from septon marabald or airborn sirens uh when he says there are many sorts of outlaws and many types of birds birds just get so many different references and comparisons in this book whether it's that or whether it's sansa uh little finger

burb borbs borbs i did some hashtag analysis actually on the bird feeding because this was another one of those times when George had John ask a question to the reader where he said later, John wished he understood what they were talking about and why. What did he care about ravens and doves? If the old man had something to say to him, why couldn't he just say it? So what's Amon actually saying? And the first part of it is he's talking about all different kind of birds like in Westeros. And the subtext there is there's lots of different kind of birds, but not all of them are suited to life in the Night's Watch. They need certain kinds of birds, basically ravens, ones that are hardy, one that can do the jobs that they're given. And it's sort of it leads into also JR's giving him the sword and the command grooming he's getting where amon is subtly telling him you're the bird we want john you're that bird oh my gosh he's that bird and then uh he goes on to say something about the crow is the raven's poor cousin they are both beggars and black hated and misunderstood well night's watch brothers are

sometimes called like the begging brothers because they go around to castle to castle. So what he's saying there is whether or not John, you're a bastard or a true born, you join our brotherhood and you'll be like us. We're all hated, but at least we're together. You'll have a family and then birds of a feather. Exactly.

And the last one is, um, he said, uh, John mentions that Mormons Raven raven likes wheat and fruit. And Amon responds, well, some of them prefer flesh. It makes them strong. But I fear they relish the taste of blood in that they are like men.

And then he says, like men, not all ravens are alike. And with the fact that Mormont just gave him that sword, it's another subtle message from Aemon where he's saying, once you start tasting blood, you never stop wanting it. Because he's seen it through his life as a Targaryen prince and all those rebellions that happen where if you go south, you get your vengeance, you go with Rob, you're not going to like who you turn into. Also, is this like, this is totally, this is what I'm imagining they did for Waymer, right? Like this is them going, John, you're the next Waymer Royce. Which I'm sure you could appreciate, right? Yeah, basically. Oh, I appreciate that very much, Chloe.

I love that. I'm doing Jill Magician analysis now. Are you proud? You need more random quotes about Craster and then you're there. Wait, I have a bad take. So we're talking about John becoming a raven ant slash or crow some sort of big boar and you know we get maester amon talking about how he used to tell his younger brother kill the man and kill the boy and let the man be born is it because john is not

yet a bird is he still just an egg he is an egg exactly this isn't the worst take i've ever had i would like to point that out. Well, that's a pretty big feat. That's basically a Maester Monthly take. That's exactly silly enough for Maester Monthly. Get silly. Well, we get silly sometimes. Get silly. So we are going to do this passage.

It's very long. We are going to just read this passage till the end of the book because I really don't care i mean it's my favorite so we're good it's the best passage and i don't think we can do it justice summarizing because it's literally going to be the same amount of summary as it is passage so we may as well do it because we're going to go all out we're going to go all out uh we all know our roles. All right. John, did you ever wonder why the men of the Night's Watch take no wives and father no children? Maester Aemon asked. John shrugged.

No. He scattered more meat. The fingers of his left hand were slimy with blood and his right throbbed from the weight of the bucket. So they will not love. The old man answered. For love is the bane of honor, the death of duty. That did not sound right to John, yet he said nothing. The maester was a hundred years old and a high officer of the Night's Watch. It was not his place to contradict him. The old man seemed to sense his doubts. Tell me, John, if the day should ever come when

your lord father must need choose between honor on the one hand and those he loves on the other, what would he do? John hesitated. He wanted to say that Lord Eddard would never dishonor himself, not even for love. Yet inside, a small, sly voice whispered, He fathered a bastard. Where was the honor in that? And your mother, what of his duty to her? He will not even say her name. He would do whatever was right, he said, wringingly to make up for his hesitation. No matter what.

Then Lord Eddard is a man in ten thousand. Most of us are not so strong. What is honor compared to a woman's love? What is duty against the feel of a newborn son in your arms? Or the memory of a brother's smile? Wind in words, wind in words, we are only human, and the gods have fashioned us for love. That is our great glory and our great tragedy." The men who formed the Night's Watch knew that only their courage shielded the

realm from the darkness to the north. They knew that they must have no divided loyalties to weaken their resolve, so they vowed they would have no wives nor children. Yet brothers they had, and sisters, mothers who gave them birth, fathers who gave them names. They came from a hundred quarrelsome kingdoms, and they knew times may change, but men do not. So they pledged as well, that the Night's Watch would take no part in the battles of the realms it guarded. They kept their pledge. They kept their pledge. When Aegon slew Black Harren and claimed his kingdom, Harren's brother was Lord Commander

on the Wall with ten thousand swords to hand. He did not march. In the days when the Seven Kingdoms were Seven Kingdoms, not a generation passed that three or four of them were not at war, the Watch took no part. When the Andals crossed the Narrow Sea and swept away the kingdoms of the First Men, the sons of the fallen kings held true to their vows remained at their posts. So it has always been, for years beyond counting. Such is the price of honor. A craven can be as brave as any man when there is nothing to fear. We all do our duty when there is no cost

to it. How easy it seems, then, to walk the path of honor. Yet, sooner or later, in every man's life comes a day when it is not easy. A day when he must choose. Some of the ravens were still eating long, stringy bits of meat dangling from their beaks. The rest seemed to be watching him. John could feel the weight of all those tiny black eyes. And this is my day. Is that what you're saying? Maester Aemon turned his head and looked at him with those dead white eyes.

It was as if he were seeing right into his heart. John felt naked and exposed. He took the bucket in both hands and flung the rest of the slops through the bars. Strings of meat and blood flew everywhere, scattering the ravens. They took to the air, shrieking wildly. The quicker birds snatched morsels on the wing and gulped them down greedily. John let the empty bucket clang to the floor. The old man laid a withered, spotted hand on his shoulder.

It hurts, boy. He said softly. Oh yes, choosing. It has always hurt, and always will. I know. You don't know. John said bitterly. No one knows.

Even if I am his bastard, he's still my father. Maester Aemon sighed. Have you heard nothing I told you, John? Do you think you are the first? He shook his ancient head, a gesture weary beyond words. Three times the god saw fit to test my vows. Once when I was a boy, once in the fullness of my manhood, and once when I had grown old. By then my strength had fled, my eyes had grown dim, yet the last choice was as cruel as the first. My ravens would bring news from the south, words darker than wings,

the ruin of my house, the death of my kin, disgrace and desolation. What could I have done, old, blind, frail? I was helpless as a suckling babe, yet still grieved me to sit forgotten, as they cut down my brother's poor grandson and his son and even the little children. John was shocked to see the shine of tears in the old man's eyes. Who are you? He asked quietly, almost in dread. A toothless smile quivered on the ancient lips. Only a maester of the citadel, bound in service to Castle Black and the Night's Watch.

In my order, we put aside our house names when we take our vows and don the collar. The old man touched the maester's chain that hung loosely around his thin, fleshless neck. My father was Maker, the first of his name, and my brother Aegon reigned after him in my stead. My grandfather named me for Prince Aemon the Dragon Knight, who was his uncle, or his father, depending on which tale you believe. Aemon, he called me. Aemon Targaryen. Jon could scarcely believe it.

Once. The old man said. Once. So you see, Jon, I do know. And knowing, I will not tell you to stay or go. You must make that choice for yourself. And live with it for all the rest of your days. As I have.

As I have. Such a good speech. You can't read that without getting teared up. I read it earlier and I got really emotional. I just got like, it's just all of it. And I mean, okay, we've done this before. So I'm not saying that, you know, this is secondary, but we did do this quote in our Edward 10 episode.

We didn't do the full conversation. You know, it was a Ned. Yeah. Yeah. We did the Ned part in the beginning, but I do want to say shout out to all i can ever think of is eliana when she did this because she read the whole little thing she was aiming and john in that and i always hear her voice like when he asks about eddard and like what he would do and i just hear him going he would do whatever was right no matter what and i hear your voice in my head whenever I read it now.

Like, that's what I hear. But also I hear the music we put to it in that, and the music was very emotional, and it was just really soft, and we had the promise me going on, and it was just, it's good. So hopefully whatever I do with this, I'm going to make some magic.

You guys won't know until you hear it. But. Like you said, shout out to Alia. I'm like, i'm literally right here shout out to arithmetic or glass table girl to our other host alicean she's our executive producer get it right she is anyway so let's talk a little about um amen and his past and the things that have led to him, those choices that he has made that he must live with. I'm just going to throw this out there.

This is by far my favorite speech in the books. This is probably the thing on YouTube that I've watched probably the most, this thing over and over again. Him talking to Jon and just the connections between them and the symmetries and just how well it works for John and it tells you so much about Eamon it's it's super well written and like Chloe said this one that gets me deep in my core yeah yeah it's really beautiful there's a lot of complicated emotions going on in here probably too much to actually break apart just because it's it's so dense and it's so great but i think one thing that people have always this is sort of a fan theory part of it like so amin lists his three tests he says one when he

was a boy one when he was full grown and one when he was old so i've always taken those as the youngest one when he was a boy was probably he probably fell in love maybe when he first went to the citadel in old town or before he left when he left king's landing it would actually make some sense if he also left king's landing in his family because of like maybe like a broken heart or a crush gone awry that would make sense for a character like that um the second one has always been kind of tough but i've decided that was when he turned down the crown. Nobody has really ever done that in the way he did. Other people have done it like Prince Duncan, the Prince of Dragonflies did it for Jenny of Oldstones.

And other people have turned it down because they were already maesters. But it's never really been offered in the way it was to aim them and that must have been an impossible choice yeah i wanted to add in real quick that two things that jenny's song that we finally got to hear in the show uh obviously and i know it's only show canon it's probably probably not what george wrote wrote but i'm sure he told them you know this is what it's about. So good luck. That song, though, being played, especially as Jon tells Dany his parentage and that, you know, she realizes, oh, you have a claim to the throne, has a little foreshadowing. I think a lot of people are wondering, is that going to happen?

Is Jon going to abdicate his throne so Dany can be on it? Yada, yada. And I think that it ties in really well with Aemon Targaryen especially since a lot of people tend to theorize Aemon is his name his actual secret Targaryen name they just have such similar kind of back and forth of what they're going to do and I also think

it reminds me of another Targaryen it reminds me of Rule of Three Dany's Three Treasons oh true how so? just that you know for love for blood for gold uh so three tests love uh taking the crown or to go south as amon targaryen i mean i think those are pretty uh pretty similar in a few ways there you know a couple parallels in there i also really love the connections with john that amon's three tests really have to do with his identity

where if he was a boy before he became a maester he went from amon targaryen to maester amon then he had the choice to go back and then he did it again and it's kind of like john switching back and forth as i'm sure when he figures out his real name in the books as he has in the show where is he Jon Snow? Is he Aegon Targaryen? And just how those kind of identities shape you. and becoming the king he never was to get vengeance for his family. And that's such a powerful thing to turn down for him. That's why he starts crying and the losses he's felt. It's really good writing, especially when you just, like I said, you take into account John's own problems with identity, especially in this chapter. So you think the temptation to go down was in vengeance and not um not as in a similar situation that john is in right now like when he saw that his family was in trouble and to go down and to assist them

well yeah that's that's parallel situations for blood revenge revenge and vengeance got it vengeance and treason for fire and blood treason for fire and blood yeah it's i i tend to think that this whole speech is this kind of a meta commentary and something i've sort of keyed in on a lot is that it really is the roadmap for john as a character the things he's really struggled with what amon's tests are the ones he kind of goes through as well. How he will fall on different times, how he reacts to them. It's almost like George in this chapter, which is actually super short, we were talking about, just kind of laid out his plan for Jon as a character. And I thought it was really cool. Yeah, I totally agree that he does.

Because Aemon's tested thrice and so is Jon. Amon's tested thrice and so is John. And coming back to biblical stuff, I think you see this idea of three different tests, three different temptations come up a lot in stories in general. It's part of being a hero, right? Like that temptation. And long, long ago, I wrote an essay about how the temptation of Christ in the desert bears the exchange between Euron and Aaronryn in the chapter of the Forsaken because you know I felt compared compelled to write it since I was there when the chapter was read aloud and

I'm never going to let anyone forget it and like we're going to come back to each of these different temptations as they occur in Jon's storyline but they're all each different things that test his character and as you said they show us who john is and i think in many ways they mirror the test that amin has right because uh with his family at war it's very much like amin's most recent and by that i mean a long time ago but like it's still most recent right and in the larger scheme of things pretty recent yeah yeah you know 15 years ago as opposed to the one that happened like 50 years ago for abin yeah but long time ago yeah with uh the targaryen family at risk and john sees that with rob's life at risk

and same with ned's as his family starts going to war and then then he's tested again later with Ygritte and choosing Ygritte and the wildlings, that romantic love, as you were saying, that Amon might have been tested with love as a boy when he was younger. And then finally with Stannis promising and finally with

Stannis promising Winterfell to Jon very much like Amon being offered the crown. And all of these are refused by Jon in some way. It takes some coaxing, but it's very much the same as Aemon refusing those temptations. But just as like both Aemon and Jon actually end up being tested a fourth time, Aemon with the return of Daenerys and the dragons, and this time his faith falters. He so badly wants to go to her and then for john that fourth test comes with his quote-unquote sister aria being married off to ramsey and winterfell

we all know it's jane poole we like fucking just read all these chapters everyone um but and and both of them fail right they fail that temptation amen can't actually really actively pursue it because he's like old and dying um and john also ends up dying in giving into that temptation he tries to rally the night's watch to be like yeah we gotta go take winterfell we gotta unite the north if we're gonna like defend um the wall and we see that as a reader, the line that stands out to John the most is he want is Ramsey wanting his bride back wanting, quote, unquote, Arya back. And that's, that was very much, I think, a big motivation for him in wanting to march on Winterfell. And for that he dies. And very much so each of these, like I said, they, they challenged identity,

very much so each of these like i said they they challenged identity john bounces between being john snow john stark john the ranger and john the wildling at a certain point and john husband basically to egret and mace raymond does the same thing too sometimes he's a man in his and his just a man in his brother egg sometimes he's mace raymond sometimes he's a man targaryen and then other times he wants to be King Aemon. Yeah. Or brother of the Night's Watching. And of course, it really harkens back just like Arya. You know, she's Arya.

She's Lump. She's Weasel. She's Nan. Yes. Just like Sansa, too. You know, she's Elaine. They all have to lose their identity in order to figure out who they are and in order to come home. Yeah.

It's very much trying on those different ways of growing up the faces yeah the faces faces who you know that's just finding your identity i think it's really i think it's really cool that they are all these characters john is all those people at one mace raymond is all those people at once but it's who they're choosing to show the world at that time and who they're choosing to be yeah yeah i really like that insight because i'm gonna get sappy again because that's all of us we're all a lot of different people yeah sometimes you're a massive wee belly on it sometimes no no that's always so earlier you kind of talked about how john and george both are basically questioning the reader in this chapter uh and keeping us listening and talking yeah so we went over um

a couple of them while we were talking the ravens and dove ones came up um but one that we didn't really cover because it's kind of a throwaway line but it's something that john asks himself he says he threw the meat wondering why he'd been summoned. And I really think that's sort of, it's innocuous. It's really just a throwaway line, but George is asking you, why did this entire chapter happen?

Why do you think I wrote this? And I think it's an excellent question from him. That's you don't catch on the first try because it's just John throwing meat into a cage. That's actually a really great way to put it. Just seeing what sticks with the birds. Oh my god. He goes, he gets a sword.

He mopes and, yeah, throws some meat. God damn it. But it's interesting because I know we made all those jokes about Harry Potter earlier, but at the same time, that's kind of the same thing with that chapter, right? I mean, J.K. Rowling uses that chapter to hide that it's Sirius Black who's sending it. You don't know who's actually sending the firebolt in the harry

potter scene uh when he gets his broomstick that's so special and magical you just know that someone sent it and obviously you see the professors are all like talking to each other and whispering to each other because they're like we know somebody sent it to him that's probably not good but harry doesn't think that harry's like what do you mean you're taking my broomstick away? This is an amazing broomstick. What are you talking about? So it's kind of a similar, you know, you're getting all these gifts. You're seeing all these things.

And there's a hidden message that's under the rug. And you're so dazzled by the sparkle of it all that we, the reader, and John at first don't recognize what's happening. John never recognizes it. He basically doesn't get to the last sentence where he goes, oh, wait. He's like, oh, this is a life lesson. At first he's just like, oh, God, the old man's talking to me. He's going to lecture me.

But he's like really showing his heart. That's his heart, John. But it's also super rare that George really asks these questions directly to you as a reader and it's interesting that he placed them here and i think what we were talking about is a really pivotal pivotal pivotal chapter in john's arc really throughout the rest of the books but especially in the game of thrones and the the really deep choices that he has so many other characters deal with, like the idea of honor and duty and the one you love. I mean, both of Jon's fathers went through that.

Rhaegar had the choice to stay honorable and stay to his duty and stay married to Elia, or he could run away with Lyanna. And we know which way he went on that one, chose the heart. We have actually Ned as an example in a upcoming chapter when he's in the black cells when he talks to varus i talked about this in my um my killing of a ranger video but basically john here says that ned would do whatever was right but in an almost in a heartbeat ned gives up his honor for sansa he gives it he gives up honor for love and that's kind of john's instinct to this he thinks amen's actually wrong there's that chat there's that um that paragraph we were talking about where he said i don't know if that's kind of John's instinct to this. He thinks Amon's actually wrong. There's that paragraph we were talking about where he said, I don't know if that's right, but I'm not going to question Maester Amon. And it's really interesting that even in such a pivotal chapter, we get examples and counterexamples to people going different ways on this.

Especially people very close to John, people that he cares about stanis does it too he goes really the other way he chooses honor over love really hard yeah yeah i love that it's very like it's that rug like we said slipping underneath that amen is obviously his relative and john is so worked up about his family right now and amen's like telling him about his other family that he has no clue about. And it also was really interesting because then you bring in that fact that we learned later that Rhaegar and Amon would correspond with each other, right? That they, when he was in the Citadel, Rhaegar was younger, they would correspond to each other, which is obviously a big push of why Rhaegar woke up one day and said he had to be you know a knight uh he had done all this research and all these scrolls and of course so while that rug is being pulled under us for Jon it's being pulled out for Aemon

as well because Aemon probably suspects it or knows something's different about Jon and might have an idea of it but at the same time then you get him with sam on the boat you know a targaryen alone is a terrible thing in this world and he has no clue do you guys what do you guys think do you think amon knows do you think he suspects or i don't know what's your i don't think he knows i don't think he could suspect or know that john that that's part of the irony that he just doesn't know at all that john is a targaryen especially because he's especially because he's blind where maybe there's some facial recognition or something in john's behavior or his mannerisms that maybe he would recognize from his family but he can never see john he can only hear him

now we know that john came out looking like liana but it's i imagine ned was terrified of maester amon ever meeting john in case that something like that happened much in the same way he kept john away from basically anyone that ever knew a targaryen yeah at the same time with all that i find it interesting you know like he can sense stanis's sword for example being false because the heat coming off of it so i almost wonder if that even just that passage the way it's written you know like he senses it's false because there's no heat coming from it and john is a targaryen so he's probably hot blooded right i don't know i thought it's like he's got that spicy blood that drogon smelled i honestly don't think amon knows i think he probably does suspect because like you said he's sort of a lie detector for this story he calls out everybody he sees through everything

ironic being blind but i think like you were talking about with rhaegar and actually going back even further probably to summer hall and the role that he played most likely in egg trying to hatch dragons as a living expert on dragons and prophecy and lore he almost certainly had a hand in it accidentally thinking he was saving his family and after a certain point when you're a character like that or you're a person like that and or you're a person like that, and twice you've seen almost your entire family die from you trying to snoop out secrets and find things nobody can see, it really seems like he turned his mind off until he heard about Daenerys again. Then he comes alive. So if he suspects Jon is Rhaegar's kid I don't think he would want to know really I think he would kind of ignore it

yeah and I mean if he was wrong already before about Rhaegar being the prince that was promised if he was wrong about all these other things that led to the ruin of his house I'm just saying he's incredibly wise in the idea of knowing

that the sword is false because it gives off no heat. That is very much just a logic thing. I don't think I see him as an intuitive person when it comes to being able to be like, yes, I think that this might be my

nephew. Great-great-nephew. But, I don't know, maybe i'm just boring like that it it is kind of a plot hole in the books that literally no one has ever questioned that but nobody has been like so ned went south to dorn and then came back with a kid and like everyone just sort of bought that that he fathered a bastard no one ever ever really put together like, huh, what would happen if a Targaryen and a Stark had a kid? Wouldn't it look like Jon? Well, and that's exactly where, deep breath, everyone. That's exactly where Azshara Dayne comes into play.

It's disrespectful to question it because everyone thinks it's Azshara. He's never explicitly said, no, it's not. But he also outlawed everyone from speaking about it which means naturally everyone in the country knows about it because he said no way stop talking about it and he got very lucky that john came out looking like liana and not like raygar because if it had come out like raygar his lie would have probably been a lot thinner of him saying yeah it was definitely a chardonnay uh but it's rude right it's kind of rude to question like a baby whose mom is probably dead uh especially if it's a high-born lady that rude right it's kind of rude to question like a baby whose mom is probably dead

uh especially if it's a highborn lady that killed herself that's kind of like yeah if you're diplomatic and if you're courteous you're not going to say anything about it true that's a good point yeah the people wanted to believe that something so salacious would have happened gossip girl that honorable ned would have this sort of flaw well it's just like what cersei says like why'd she kill herself for the child for the child you slew or the child you stole you know like she's like feeling it out like what actually happened but as we know his guilt goes far deeper than that oh for sure he's like a guilt black hole he just absorbs all guilt in the universe but i do think like you know john questions what ned does and i think that

but at the same time john is correct ned would do what was right and i think there's a difficulty here in that amen kind of frames love and duty as a dichotomy uh as opposites and i don't think they necessarily are and john's storyline very much shows that like love for his family of course tempts him to leave his duty at the night's watch but love for his family is also what keeps him dutiful to them in a lot of ways like his love for his, the Starks, as well as of course, like the societal expectations that he's been raised him raised with, as we see causes him to feel so much guilt about coveting, like his true born quote,

quote half brothers birthright. And then about being offered Winterfell and tempted by wanting Winterfell by Stannis. And I think that these sorts of choices are very much scattered throughout the books. There's so many vows they make you swear and swear. And of course those Ned parallels. Ned was...

We see Ned make a similar choice again in a few chapters. The choices offered to Ned a few moments ago. And we get that repetition here. What is Ned going to do? What's honorable or the thing out of love and i think that the thing out of choosing love can be the right thing to do and can in fact be the dutiful thing to do yes

it's true and i'm not even sure if amin really believes that they are separate a lot of this really seems like he he and jr are putting these questions to john to think about what i don't i don't you can tell a lot about what amin really thinks um as he's dying in a feast for crows and a lot of this comes out and he feels a ton of guilt and he definitely feels his love and his duty and his honor all mixed up together. He is not as black and white. Ah, black and white. Oh, oh. As he is right here.

future of the order um that john has to think about these things that these are very important especially in the frame of is he going to take that sword and ride south or is he going to stay on the wall and take this new life that they're offering yeah and there's that whole that whole analog of black and white which obviously can also relate to Kingsguard and the Night's Watch. And that whole idea of this, like, colony, this penal colony of army bros that are sworn to protect something. And they have to give up their whole lives for it. Their everything, their families, their names, their this, their that. I mean, you know, war happens and there are Kingsguard that get put into captivity by their kings and say, hey, they might betray us, I can't trust them, you know, because they're nervous about it.

And it's all framing, like, I mean, it's a perfect place to put your hero, right? You start off and you put the hero of your story in a colony where he can't level up, he's not gonna do anything where he gets, you know, gets to have lands in in a castle he's not gonna have a wife or kids and then they take everything of doing that and putting this character into this area and this like limiting his his story and then they completely just subvert it and go except now he's gonna do all of it and it's gonna add up to exactly the emotional reason of why because of this speech right here this is this is amen telling us what's about to happen and the outlining of having the fellowship being so you know doing things to keep him

in the watch is really what outlines that wonderful echoing haunting scene we're gonna get true i also thought about something as you were talking about the black and white dichotomy and um just this name is amenon so one of john's heroes is amon the dragon knight who's actually the lord commander of the king's guard for several kings so in effect what amon is saying is you can be lord commander of the night's watch one day or you could go south and probably be the lord commander of your brother's king's guard you could probably do both which one is more important to you which one's more do you want to guard the realm and because of what you've seen that the others are coming or do you want your

help your brother win a crown which one's more important to you yeah i think it's a great question um that's a great way of showing that question of where you would want to serve but now he has the sword now he has this sword. Now he has this sword. And I don't know. Well, Dragonite, the Dragonite had Dark Sister too. Wait, Dragonite, the Pokemon?

Oh, wow. Wow. Dragonite, there you go. Sword stance. A storm of sword stance. Oh my god, we did it. You you know sometimes a song of ice and fire is the friends you've made along the way i hear oh my god oh my god um i do like that john recognizes though when amen starts talking like oh yeah amen the dragon knight and like starts name dropping all these other fucking people

uh it's very much john piecing those things together and creates that sense of world building of of course like a lot of the way that we get a sense of world in the story is through stories within stories lady gwyn of radio westeros talked about this in depth at a panel this past weekend at ice and fire con and john understanding and putting all of that together about amon's past shows you that hey he's heard these before this is a thing people know and thus creates a sense of world um but i do want to double back again like since we are talking about the sword um something that i thought about earlier as we were as um you know you were

talking about this matt of how john gets the sword and he doesn't want it and now that we're talking about like all of these um choices that john has to make and the things that he wants and doesn't want especially with the targaryen history now being wrapped up into it i the sword feels very much like how john's going to feel probably probably, when he learns that he's a Targaryen. And you get a taste of that, I guess, at the show. But he's like, oh, cool. Thanks for this cool Valyrian thing. I don't want this.

I actually still just really wanted to be a Stark. I just wanted to be loved in Winterfell. But thanks. Yeah, that's true he um he really does not know what to do in this moment doesn't know what to do in the show when it's revealed and i i just really love the way that these that george has forcing john to confront these and it it's, it's, he's being tempted with everything he wants, right? He can have a real father that loves him in Jr. He can have a version of ice,

even if it's not the real thing. He can have brothers in the way that Rob never and, uh, Brandon and, um, and Theon never really could not really a mother, maybe even sort of like a motherly figure to him a little bit, but at least someone nurturing in a way that Catlin was not for him.

And it's, it's really interesting seeing him deal with his history and the real anger he feels about it. And does he deserve that kind of love? Really? Yeah. I mean, everyone deserves love. You you know that's the

saddest thing about john's plot in my opinion is like he grows up never knowing who his mother was you know with his abandonment issues thinking like was she ashamed of me like why didn't she want me was he ashamed of me was he ashamed of her he doesn't know why he wasn't wanted and it's like maybe some communication skills could have helped this but on ned's part and there was um one more funny john actually being a targaryen thing well i don't know if it's funny i think it's really more tragic in that but it's it depends how you look at it really amen. Aemon, at the end of that speech, is talking about the death of Rhaenys and Aegon and Elia and Rhaegar and basically how Viserys and Daenerys had to run away. And he's saying how this is one of his great sorrows, knowing what happened to him. And Jon doesn't really react to those.

He just more reacts to, holy crap, you're Aemon Targaryen. But the irony is that those are actually his half-br half sister and his aunt and uncle whereas the people that he's pining for are his cousins he's more closely related to the ones that aemon is grieving for but he feels nothing for them yeah at least at least blood wise not like raising wise obviously yes yes if he ever finds out i wonder if he'll think back to this conversation he has to right this was such a big part of his big part of his life i think so i think he'll reflect on this definitely probably i don't know what wins or end of wins or beginning of dream i think there will be some reflection on this there has to be i mean if anything that the original version of all of this in the show has shown us i don't he won't at all

it won't come up oh my god uh all right well i think that this was an awesome great discussion absolutely i mean i have i said in the twitter dm that i had like three hours worth of things to say no i guess the one thing was um the one last thing was that um in the in my killing of a ranger part two that i recently released like this this quote in this chapter is such a huge part of it and it's sort of it ties into what i think john's sort of end of his story will be like we said at the beginning it ends up being theon on the show but it's really having to make the choice of his own life versus and the people he loved versus what he think versus duty or some kind of crazy sacrifice like Theon did charging at the Knights King surrounded by death and tying back into

Waymar kind of like a no chance, no choice moment where it seems like he's really going that way. And this is one of the primary lessons. I think George wanted him to know as a character before he gets there. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. This is and this is the depth building, right? This is only the first book.

This is what's going to lead up to all of those great moments of, you know, you never should have loved her. You never should have left her. All that, you know, was my father ashamed with my mother in his bed, you know? All of that kind of is outlined here. It's etched here. And as we keep going forward, just add some more depth. It's a lot. It's a lot.

It's sad because, yes, John is a whining emo 14-year-old in a lot of these chapters. But, I mean, that's where your plucky little protagonist has to start out before he becomes a man before he kills the boy or before he becomes Kylo Ren it's the scar I get it it's canon oh my gosh well thank you so much

Joe Magician Matt for coming on with us please tell everyone where they can find you oh it was a real pleasure you guys this is really my favorite chapter and it was this was a very lovely conversation i really enjoyed it and getting back to read it especially because i lost my original copy of game of thrones what so so i had to break out my 20th anniversary you know a straight aversion with like the gold on the side of it and all that stuff so it's been 20 years i know but i actually i actually had to open it because i had no other way to read the chapter

uh you can find me obviously on my youtube channel youtube.com slash joe magician on twitter at joe magician 42 on the maester monthly podcast which eliana and i sometimes co-host. With a rotating cast of other moderators. Yep. And you can find me as a feature writer sometimes on Watchers on the Wall. The ideas that do not make it to my videos usually end up there as essays. So there's good stuff there too. Awesome. Well, definitely check it out.

We're really excited to see the rest of your show content this season. Definitely will check it out. We're really excited to see the rest of your show content this season. As always, you can find us on a podcasting platform near you. Check us out on Podbean, on iTunes, Spotify.

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from A Scene of Ice and Fire, where we talk about the very first episode of Game of Thrones, Winter is Coming, and the pilot episode that got scrapped. Yes, we talk a lot about some of the meta and production that goes into the

show. And, of course, thank you, everyone, for listening to Girls Gone Canon. It has been a year since we first put out an episode, and this is also our 50th, and so, again, thank you so much to Matt for joining

us for our birthday, for being our guest at our birthday party. Aw, you guys are one year old we're one can you remember we were babies we're one one we were babies god wait so are you guys older no but we're older than baby sam in game of thrones got him how old is that kid he's like four now. Nobody knows. Yeah, he rapidly aged at one point. I know, he might have a mustache going on right now. Probably better than mine.

Better than mine, too. I do not grow good facial hair. As always, I'm Chloe, one of your hosts. You know where to find me, Liza Narber on the internet. And I am Aliana, another one of your hosts, also known as Glastablegirl. Bye, guys. and I am Aliana another one of your hosts also known as Glass Table Girl bye guys