Girls Gone Canon Cast - ASOIAF Episode 51 - AGOT Jon IX & Outro

Episode Date: May 17, 2019

The first temptation: with Ned Stark dead, Jon Snow must choose between family and vengeance or his vows. Neville Longbottom helps show Jon the way, and through a talk with the Old Bear, Jon finally makes his choice.    Mentioned: Jon's Choice to become Aegon | Game of Thrones Episode 4 Analysis by JoeMagician   Intro by Anton Langhage --- Eliana's twitter: https://twitter.com/arhythmetric Eliana's reddit account: https://www.reddit.com/user/glass_table_girl Eliana's blog: https://themanyfacedblog.wordpress.com/ Chloe's twitter: https://twitter.com/liesandarbor Chloe's blog: www.liesandarborgold.com

episode 51 of our song of ice Ice and Fire read-through, John 9 in A Game of Thrones, and outro to Game of Thrones, John. I am one of your hosts, Chloe. You probably know me from the internet, at LiesInArbor on Twitter, Tumblr, and at LiesInArborGold.com. And I'm another one of your hosts, Eliana, and you might know me as GlassTableGirl over on the A Song of Ice and Fire subreddit, on the Maester Monthly Podcast, or maybe as Arithmetric over on Twitter. So, 51, we passed the big landmark, which was also our one-year anniversary episode

that we did together with Joe Magician. Thank you for joining us, who also has, since then, been inspired and put out a video about the choice that Jon has to make in the show. Yes. Choosing has always hurt. Absolutely. It's a great piece. I implore you to check it out. Link will be down in the cut below in the details.

We had a great anniversary. Really, we did. I enjoyed a Game of Thrones episode. That was a landmark for our one year. Absolutely. Eliana, did you enjoy your anniversary present from me, which was no episode last week? I did.

You also sent me another anniversary present. You guys, did I tell everyone about this? I don't know. Chloe sent me a Mooshu tumbler that I brought to Ice and Fire Con. And she also sent a Jon Snow. I keep wanting to call it a Jon Snoo, but the snooze are the thing on Reddit.

A Jon Snow on the Iron Throne Funko Pop. Yeah, I'm a good fan. Yeah, she is. Yeah, probably. And she's a good cat owner, you know. Thank you. Thank you. And hey, they work work for me they're not just like owned by my bad you know i mean marketing executives cat boss alice and the executive producer jake the uh jaharis jake jacob you know his three names yeah we're mixing we're mixing up the different jah jahians. But not only am I a fruitful, loving podcast co-host with gifts, we also have another gift

for you patrons this month. We have decided on our episode. We had one plan. We decided to change our minds for another. We are doing an episode about prophecy this month. Fuck the dance. We'll get back to that eventually. We're like, do we fuck the dance we'll get back to that eventually we're like do we do the dance uh i mean we're free women we are you know and big men will never rule girls gone canon

oh my god yeah so patrons five dollars and up you will get access toward the end of the month to an episode about prophecy, all about prophecy, different places that have religions that worship and have different prophecies. You have many different faces of prophecy that you will be hearing about. So stay tuned for that. We will likely tell you. Without further ado, before we hit John 9 in a Game of Thrones, we are going to step into our lightning round where we talk about the chapters between John 8 and John 9 very briefly. Yes, so our

lightning round kicks off with Daenerys 7. After Khal Drogo conquers the city, Daenerys demands they release their spoils, including Mirri Maz Dor, who tends to Drogo's wound. MVP. MVP. Uh, Tyrion VIII, assigned under Gregor Clegane's command with his men in the vanguard, Tyrion has Bronn fetch him a companion before the war. He's awakened to fight in the

Battle of the Green Fork. Catlin X. Rob ambushes the Lannister armies and brings Jaime Lannister as a hostage to the camp, but suffers losses in the way. Daenerys 8. A cow who cannot ride is no cow at all. Mirri Maz Dorr practices blood magic on Khal Drogo as Jorah fights the remaining blood riders to death. Daenerys begins to hemorrhage. riders to death. Daenerys begins to hemorrhage. Arya

5. Arya watches her father confess his treason after chasing pigeons into which Ned Stark has warged. Which is why he's still alive and Euron stops her from reaching him when the sword falls. He also warged into the sword. I've ruined this chapter. You honestly, it

was a nice little lightning round little summary and you just you're the devil. Betrayal. Betrayal. Betrayal. Bran VII. Bran and Rickon dream of their father in the crypts.

Sansa VI. Sansa is forced to look at her father's head by Joffrey and then contemplates throwing him off the wall. Daenerys IX. Dany must mercy kill Khal Drogo due to the cost of Mirri's magic, and her baby is born stunted and twisted. Tyrion 9. Tywin dispatches Tyrion to act as Joffrey's hand, and Tyrion decides to bring Shae along. Jon 9. Overview. Jon is prepared to honor his family, and he attempts to desert the Night's Watch. to honor his family, and he attempts to desert the Night's Watch. He only gets as far as Molestown before his sworn brothers catch up with him and chillingly remind him of his vows.

It's not that chillingly. I don't know. It's the cutest moment in the books, in my opinion, or one of them. I think it's beautiful, and we're going to get there and discuss why it's beautiful. But first, before we get to that end of chapter, Jon has to leave. So we start with Jon preparing to leave Castle Black to go south and help his family with the wars to come.

Ghost is with him and Neville Longbottom tries to stop him as he reaches the door of the common room. Gasp! Sorry, I meant Samwell Tarly. Sam, everyone. And like Neville, you know, he fails. I thought that this was interesting language it says

samuel tarly stood in the stable door a full moon peering over his shoulder he threw a giant shadow immense in black and it kind of reminds me of this line that you get at the very first chapter of john's in this book and actually john's first chapter ever whatever where when he opened the door the light from within through his shadow clear across the yard and for just a moment tyrian lannister stood tall as a king and like there are so many people who talk about like tyrian's shadow being large and like there are a lot of passages that nail that home too and often this is linked to the influence that he's going to have in the story especially in

clash other people theorize it means other things but we're not talking about that right now all right and i do think it's interesting that sam also casts a giant shadow here it feels as though this idea of big shadows is something that george plays with in terms of showing like hey this person is going to be an important political player because Because we do see that Sam kind of does that from the shadows as well. Like in A Storm of Swords towards the end where he's like, yeah, I'm going to fix this election, whatever. And, you know, like varies in Littlefinger. Sam could end up being some sort of player who very much pulls the strings of others. But more for good, hopefully, because it's Sam and he's Neville Longbottom.

We are seeing Sam even in the adaptation to TV. Sorry, the original content that was made for TV that the books were created off of, Game of Thrones. I love Game of Thrones. So Sam, though, in the show has some plots like that. In the current season, even for a second, you start to think, are you plotting Sam? So I love this idea that Sam wasn't politically inept.

He grew up just like Sansa. You know, Sansa doesn't wield a sword. Sansa doesn't fight. But she grew up and learned politics. And even though his father hated him and thought he was craven and stupid and tortured him, Sam still absorbed some of that. And he knows how to play this mini game that has started at castle black and he says as much to john when john is

angry about being made a steward instead of a ranger he's like uh my dad used to have me sit here to learn about politics and so he knows these things yeah exactly so john's horse leaps over sam sam stumbles aside john leaves leaves. He gets past Sam. He hoped Sam hadn't hurt himself falling like that. He was so heavy and so ungainly, it would be just like him to break a wrist or twist his ankle getting out of the way. Chill the fuck out, John.

I warned him, John said aloud. It was nothing to do with him anyway. He flexed his burned hand as he rode, opening and closing the scarred fingers they still pained him but it felt good to have the wrappings off this kind of tells you how much time has passed since the white fight the white fight oh that's weird white fight night white fight night white fight night aren't they a lot of them are uh yeah this is you know how much time has happened

between that fight with the whites and of course he kind of blames it like oh it'd be just like sam to break a wrist or twist his ankle getting out of the way but also it as angry as he is he's obviously showing of course he cares about him of course he cares about what happens to sam of course he's worried yeah like he tried to protect him for the past, like, several months. Yeah. They're brothers. Which we'll be reminded of later. He plans to get as far south as possible before anyone knows he's gone, you know, except for Sam, who clearly knows.

And he knows that J.R. Mormont's gonna wake up at first light, so he's really planning his time carefully. And he decided to leave Longclaw in his cell because he felt like that's a bad move. He feels unworthy to take it after taking... after betraying Jaor. That seemed a poor way to repay him for his trust, but it couldn't be helped. No matter what he did, Jon felt as though he were betraying someone.

I like that this becomes the underlying rhythm in Jon's story. He's always trying to cater to these people around him, whether they're mentors, his father, living up to this image of what he should be. And he gets kind of caught up in his lost identity as we see a lot in Clash of Kings and in A Storm of Swords. Sometimes the reason I don't always resonate with Jon, probably as much as I vibe with characters like Sansa

or some of the other different characters, like the strong personalities as his book is, John doesn't know who he is either. Right? Like, he doesn't know who he is, and he gets lost in it. But we do know who he is. And we see that it doesn't matter what his blood lineage is, John is loyal. He wants to, you know, go where he wasn't allowed to. He's always wanted to be a Stark. And he never got to. And this was his chance. This is his one I want song right here. He wants to belong and he wants family.

Yeah. And he's choosing the wrong thing if he wants that. But whatever. I also like the subtle shade at Jorah Mormont in this. So he's like, even Jorah didn't take it and that guy sucked so i definitely can't take it paraphrased of course and john doesn't know if he's done the right thing he

thinks that maybe the southern gods are like way easier because then people just listen to their septons and their songs and they know what to do because i don't know the priests ish things kind of like guide them tell them yeah and he's like but the old gods didn't speak yeah i love that parallel that the old gods don't speak and of course then there's ghost who's also mute and quiet and looks like the old gods the beer woods yeah it's kind of funny i guess i don't know that the the new gods are any easier than the old gods, you know, which, it seems like a kind of gruesome religion, too, in its own way. If any of these gods are real, I mean, the old gods, I feel like I could see, I could understand. I mean, they're kind of like the nature gods in a way.

But the new gods kind of sound like shams, Eliana. Kind of sound like shams. They do. Maybe that's my Catholic guilt, but. Maybe. I think if any of them are real, it's obviously the many-faced god. Like, death's obviously a real thing. John thinks about how he has to find new clothes

and he has to do that soon. He's planning to steal them from somewhere because he knows he can't return to Winterfell. He can't return to anywhere, especially wearing black clothing. A stranger wearing black was viewed with cold suspicion in every village and holdfast north of the neck, and men would soon be watching for him. I love that we open the series, even on TV, with, you know, the deserter from the

Night's Watch, right? You open with that image of someone riding south from the north, and it's a great close to John's arc in this book it reminds me a little bit of that joe magician death of the ranger magic we were talking about last week but it gets echoed with john's eventual death for desertion kind of as well both of these right here are from beheadings and john's eventual desertion comes of course after that beheading with jano slint i just feel like there's a lot that happens a beheading with Jano's slint. I just feel like there's a lot that happens. A beheading happens, someone rides south. Boom. Lots of action.

I think that's such a great parallel. I didn't really think about that. That's so good. And very much also echoes how now Jon's like, I gotta steal clothes. And it's like how Ned Stark warns that any man who's a deserter of the Night's Watch is a desperate man and will do anything.

Now Jon's starting to go down that path just a little. You see how slippery it is. But I also think it's funny that at no point does Jon think until it happens later on in this chapter but he's like, yeah, I gotta get new clothes but what do you do about the giant wolf? The giant wolf is a bigger giveaway, I think,

of who you are if people are sending out notices of like, yeah, Ned Stark's bastard with a wolf has escaped no one could possibly figure it out who could figure it out everyone just has a pet wolf that's like the size of you that's

normal whatever Jon as much as Jon doesn't want to think about Winterfell he he can't not. Of course he's thinking about it. He thinks about its granite walls, thinks about its memories, and I love this passage. Even now, Jon could not decide whether the maester had stayed because he was weak and craven,

or because he was strong and true. Yet he understood what the old man had meant about the pain of choosing. He had understood that all too well. Tyrion Lannister had claimed most men would rather deny a hard truth than face it, but Jon was done with denials. He was who he was. Jon Snow, bastard and oathbreaker. Motherless, friendless, and damned.

For the rest of his life, however long that might be he would be condemned to be an outsider the silent man standing in the shadows who dares not speak his true name wherever he might go throughout the seven kingdoms he would need to live a lie lest every man's hand be raised against him but it made no matter so long as he lived long enough to take his place by his brother's side and help avenge his father. He remembered Rob as he had last seen him, standing in the yard with snow melting in his auburn hair. John would have to come to him in secret, disguised. He tried to imagine the look on Rob's face when he revealed himself. His brother would shake his head and smile and he'd say, he'd say, what a passage.

There's a lot to break down in that. I feel like anyone that's watching the current seasons of Game of Thrones, season eight, probably has a lot to say about this passage, right? It's right there. Oh, yeah. It's interesting. Very on the nose. Yes. Very on the nose.

I love this line that he was who he was john snow bastard and oathbreaker motherless friendless and damned but at the end of this chapter i mean especially those of us that are on a reread i'm sure you can gander that like that's exactly who john isn't if show cannon is true john's not a bastard john's not an oath breaker he did what he did going south was not right and he comes back as we know his friends bring him back but he has friends he had a mother he's not damned john snow like ends up as this huge hero of our story but that line is just so solemn and just speaks volumes of what john thinks of himself and it shows what john is at the very beginning of this book,

and what John will become by the end of it. I also don't mean to break up this moment, but we see in this chapter, even, that he is not friendless, nor damned. He has really, really good friends. It's just so funny that he ends that line on, and damned, and I'm like, okay, John. Okay, baby boy. Chill out. But to bring it

full circle with a lot of the Shakespearean ideas, I mean, John probably is damned, right? He's gonna have to make a lot of hard choices, especially in The Winds of Winter, when he comes back to life eventually, I'm guessing, and A Dream of Spring as well. Oh, absolutely. I also really liked this one line

within this passage as well of wherever he might go throughout the Seven Kingdoms, he would need to live a lie lest every man's hand be raised against him. It's as you were saying, in terms of, you know, if you watch this season of Game of Thrones, the issues that Jon has to deal with, especially as he's like, all right, so who am I? And at first, for a second, he was like, yeah, I'm gonna live a lie. I'm Jon Snow and not Aegon Targaryen, right? No, he's Ned is Jon's life. He, without knowing for the past 15 years in the books, was living a lie or else there would be people's hands raised against him and people's hands raised for him. Even though he didn't want that, he would be just like a baby. Yeah. And we see a lot of that playing off in, you know, some of the northern plots in A Dance with Dragons. People that are utilizing Arya's claim and people that are trying to utilize rickon's claim as well yes uh that that whole idea of having an identity and having an important identity in this country is very hard in west yeah and and of course in sanza's storyline as well as she as the people just stack stack titles on her yeah it is not

you know no one will ever marry me for love it is my claim they need to ride poor sons of. And then Jon remembers what Ned taught his sons about people who deserve from the Night's Watch and wonders you know, what would Rob say? Would Rob actually welcome me home? And he wonders what Rob

would do in the context of what would Ned Stark do and if it were Benjen Stark coming to ned as a deserter and then john thinks like maybe rob would welcome me like he had to or else it's like i do think that this is a good question because as we talk about ned living alive for the past few years what would ned stark do because this is the man right we see at the beginning he takes the night's watch which is so hard to make the night's watch like possessive because you say night's watch you would have to kill benjamin

he would have to right but at the same time like ned stark is the man who puts the family before honor and duty over and over again with like all of his secrets and lies so i don't know i think this is a question this This is a hard one. This should be the debate, the mock trial at Ice and Fire Con 2020. Yeah. Or we, yeah,

I was going to say we could ask George, but I think there were other things that I needed to ask George first. They were all, yeah, you have like eight questions. They were not, they're all important. They're all unimportant,

but also important. You know, human heart in conflict with itself john tries to put that thought out of his mind and that's a big part of what he says he had to or else or else it meant none of them had ever loved him at all like that's the way that sentence ends right that is like what they weren't his family he's afraid that they're not his family and that he truly does have no one in this world because john is feeling alone at this point he wants to kind of like run to whatever glimpse

of family he has left uh being a man must be really hard in your teenage years i don't know he thinks he wants to die and i love this it's very theon with a sword in hand fighting the stark's enemies and he thinks i'm not a real stark anyways and ghost is also here by the way you're good boy i just want to put that out there uh on the page it's very cheap and easy to put him in a scene so yeah he's somewhere you know out there hunting somewhere doing ghost things doing good boy things and then yeah as you said it's very reminiscent of theon uh wanting to die with a sword in his hand especially theon when he's reek and it tells you so much about how

these young men have like idolized what it means to be a warrior and how they've internalized all of these songs themselves it's not just like the girls or sansa who have internalized these ideas of songs it's the boys as well and that idea of what is honor and also that there's honor in dying in battle it's it's framed very much as a hero's death but john learns in this chapter that there are other ways to find honor yeah and i do want to also comment on top of that like it's not just the boys of the series right like yes it's bran yes it's john yes it's these males that like want to be as brave as the men just the boys of the series, right? Like, yes, it's Bran. Yes, it's Jon. Yes, it's these males that, like, want to be as brave as the men in the songs and the true knights of history.

And they have a lot to live up to of these war heroes. But it's also, like, the adults. It's Jaime. It's Sandor. It's all these men who, as children, wanted to be knights and got lost along the way. And I do love how George handles some of this with the males in the story. I think it's a really great look at masculinity. Yeah, it is. Especially, you know, with this little male order. tunnels john thinks about how this is also oath-breaking but it's only frowned upon very gently at the wall you know it's not a oath-breaking like leaving on a horse that's that's deserting

that's also like here's the deal is you can go have sex and break your vows we come back to work at the end of the day which also talks about like this whole thing that i was thinking about with capitalism and like our society and how 40 hours a week used to be like the jumping point right like that was like you can work up to 40 hours a week and still live a healthy lifestyle as a human being with like mental emotional and regular things and like now it's like a jumping point now it's like at least 40 hours normal people work anyways uh they make you swear and swear was my point here that this is just a moment where john's just like this is so hypocritical as fuck like what it is but at the same time it's one of those weird loopholes, I think. I don't know.

It is considered oath-breaking, and J.R. Mormont says this much later, but I guess either technically taking them as wives, but it is still breaking the spirit. It's breaking the spirit of the oath, and that's why it is oath-breaking. So wait, are you saying you support loopholes, Eliana? No, I'm not. I'm not. You don't support loopholes. I'm saying that that's why it's considered oath-breaking, you support loopholes eliana no i'm not i'm not i'm saying

you don't support i'm saying that that's why it's considered oath-breaking because it's breaking the spirit of it we'll get to this later everyone okay so john's hand keeps hurting throughout this chapter and i know it's the last person you'd think to draw a direct comparison to john but it reminds me a lot of cadeline after bray is attacked and she's attacked by the assassin because she has very little mobility in her hand and she thinks about it very often yeah i mean obviously people have discussed the other parallels before and we've talked about ned's hurting knee before i think in these chapters and it's like in this book i mean ned's dead now but whatever during those chapters we talked a lot about how ned's leg would always hurt when he was feeling like really stressed out or annoyed in king's

landing and i think that first of all there's something maybe going on here i don't know i i'd have to like actually read into it i'm just throwing this idea out there without doing much research on it but i wonder if like in storm it seems as though maybe john flexes his hand and thinks about it especially while he's in hiding with the wildlings and then whenever people talk to him about like oh blah blah you're with us now and then he's like flexing his sword hand he's like oh they can't know the truth that in my heart i'm a man of the night's watch like okay um he also tends to flex it in like dance for example he flexes it whenever he's making a hard decision yes it's a very ned like thing during the pink letter for example he's flexing his hand trying

to figure out what he's gonna do and he thinks about like your sister and you know ned just died and john's hand hurts you know his hand gets hurt and ned dies he was the hand. He's the hand. Yeah. Love it. Cute shit. Cute things. Lots of stark pain happening right now. Yep. So, there's a stream past the village. Jon takes that area and he rests upon it. He calls Ghost to him, but Ghost is taking a while.

Yes, and then, I don't know. I think this is because, like, in the past episode, as we can see, of Game of Thrones, sorry if you're not caught up i'm gonna say john is a bad dog owner that's why he doesn't know where his fucking dog is right now whatever eliana anyways anyways um john's like all right i'll just have this nice ass breakfast while i wait for my dog to show up. And then he starts to hear huffbeats. Yeah, he starts to recognize his friend's voices. We hear a lot of bickering in this passage. Yes.

So at first we don't know who the voices are. And I do like the way this is written because at first it just starts out with like random dialogue, unassigned dialogue and people speaking. And then you have like people going, in the dark, stupid, if you didn't fall off your horse and break your neck you'd get lost and wind up back at the wall when the sun came up and then it goes into

like i would not gren sounded peeved i just ride south you can tell south by the stars and then it says what if the sky was cloudy pip asked because i just like like that because george has written it in such a way that he's showing us without seeing and without John being like, he looked around and saw his friends there, right? By just putting in like, this person said this, it's telling us John recognizes these voices. And now we know who's there. It's a lot of those context clues and it's an educated like, oh, that makes sense. It's his friends coming to find him. It speaks volumes.

Like you said, it fills in several paragraphs. And it's nice because especially in chapters like this, you have to be very careful of how you pepper things in, I feel like. And that wasn't cheesy and it was nice. It also reminds you of who his friends are and what they're like. And how Grun and Pip are adorable. And of course, immediately, John is like, damn it, Sam. Because Sam went and got all of their friends who, of course, would ride after him. And he's like, in his head, well, they're all

gonna be seen as deserters now. Like, why would you do this? Which, that's not how it works, John, but that's fine. Obviously, we know who probably was behind it all. And Ghost, of course, the good boy that he is, betrays John by coming out and his presence shows up. You can just imagine it's

like i don't know thing ghost shows up he's like what's up guys oh is something happening here and then john calls ghost a traitor i hear me like john is ghost a traitor or are you the traitor as a bad dog owner anyways abandoner Abandoner. I know. God. So after this ensues what's probably like the cutest exchange back and forth in A Song of Ice and Fire. John is all I don't want to hurt you. Stay back. And they're like there's seven of

us John. Also seven. Yep. John you idiot. And then John's like I have to go down to be with my brothers and they're like we're your brothers now. Yeah John. Yeah. have to go down to be with my brothers and they're like we're your brothers now yeah John yeah he starts to try to like say

they murdered my father and Sam's like I already told them you're a little late buddy yeah and then Pip is like you said the words and then he starts saying the oath and then everyone says the oath around him and John's just cursing at them you can tell that he I think it's hilarious because on one hand he's like probably like oh my

fucking god why are they doing this to me but at the same time it's a beautiful okay yeah it does show like how john is still in that mindset of the rules don't apply to me though like he thought it was just like okay that he just left the night swatch and that's like these guys don't have that and john's out there like i don't have a place to go like other than the night swatch it's like okay but you were ready to leave the night swatch for everything with no place to go like you're not looking at these other people don't have anywhere to go dude yeah they really don't like sam was literally kicked out that's what it looks like when you're kicked out of your house okay john and then pip's like all right well you're gonna either you're gonna have to kill me then or you're gonna come back with me what a good friend oh pip and then john is over here he's still like

miffed at ghost when he reluctantly decides all right fine i'm gonna go back with you because obviously he's not gonna kill pip he's a petty pet owner eliana he's a dick that's not how you treat your pets uh it's really love this is like one of the best parts in the end of the book past ned being beheaded it's like chilling i love when the show repeated this in watchers for the walls don't know or watchers of the walls yeah yeah so they hurry back to castle block together before they all get into trouble they sneak back into the common room of gryffindor and john thinks they could take him back john told himself but they could not make him stay the war would not end in the morrow or the day after and his friends could not watch him day and night he would bide his time make them think he was content to

remain here and then when they had grown lux he'd be off again oh john yes thank you i'll do it for you uh sam's happy yeah he's happy yeah he's like good take this bitch back to bed yeah and then no one actually gets a good night's sleep this night because of fucking john and the next morning john's like bringing breakfast to lord mormon and then i've learned in this scene that lord mormon is a fancy bitch and he wants lemon in his water and i just really need to call this out to everyone because i'm realizing this is my character analysis for you right now that lord commander jair Mormont, I don't know if you've all noticed, he's very particular.

Oh, damn, Chloe's a fancy bitch too. Her water also has a lemon in it. Are you Jair Mormont? LC. LC Mormont? Yes, I think so. As the youths call him. The youths.

Or the old people, more like. I know, they're both older than us, but whatever. Anyways, J.R.'s always giving very specific instructions about his drinks to John, and I'm just like, J.R. Morant is a Westerosi mixologist. That's the analysis. I love this next passage. He reminds John of when he told him,

the things we love destroy us every time, but in reference to Ned's death. But, of course, we were told him the things we love destroy us every time but in reference to ned's death but of course we were told this the first time about jorah mormont who sucks but and then turns out the whole time amen had actually warned jr mormont that like john's gonna run yeah absolutely he he used that talk with him in john 8 to figure out where John stood. And of course he knew. Look at him. But I do love the passage. And it's a long-ass passage. We've only chosen some parts of it to discuss, particularly because this part of it refers to the most adorable part of the series. The old bear snorted. Do you think they chose me, Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, because I'm

dumb as a stump's toe? Aemon told me you'd go. I told him you'd be back. I know my men and my boys, too. Honor set you on the King's Road and honor brought you back.

My friends brought me back, Jarn said. Did I say it was your honor? Mormont inspected his plate. They killed my father. Did you expect me to do nothing? If truth be told, we expected you to do just as you did.

Mormont tried a plum, spit out the pit. I ordered a watch kept over you. You were seen leaving. If your brothers had not fetched you back, you would have been taken along the way and not by friends. Unless you have a horse with wings like a raven. Do you?

No. John felt like a fool. Pity. We could use a horse like that. John stood tall. He told himself that he would die die well that much he could do at the least i know the penalty for desertion my lord i'm not afraid to die I hope. Mormont said, cutting his hand with a dagger and feeding a bite to the bird. You have not deserted yet. Here you stand. She said the thing.

If we beheaded every boy who rode to Molestown in the night, only ghosts would guard the wall. Yet maybe you mean to flee again on the morrow or a fortnight from now. Is that it? Is that your hope, boy? John kept silent. I thought so. Mormont peeled the shell off a boiled egg. Ah! Ah! Boiled egg?

Oh! Oh! Oh, an egg. He just peeled the shell off of a boiled egg. Wow. Now kill the egg and let the- Oh my god, keep going. Your father is dead, lad. Do you think you can bring him back? No, he answered, sullen. Good.

We've seen the dead come back, you and me, and it's not something I care to see again. He ate the egg. Oh, he ate the egg. In two bites and flicked a bit of shell out from between his teeth. Your brother is in the field with all the power of the North behind him. Any one of his lords, Venoman, commands more swords than you'll find in all the Night's Watch. Why do you imagine that they need your help? Are you such a mighty warrior? Do you carry a grumpkin in your pocket to magic up your sword

oh my god that's such a great line because it's like so many things so much there aria has that line in the brotherhood in a star of swords where she stares at thoros and she says could you bring back a man without a head just the once not six times you? But at the same time, this brings right back into Stannis even in Jon's arc, right? Stannis with Lightbringer. Are you such a mighty warrior? You know, a grump get in your pocket to magic up your sword. But of course, as we know, Jon is the product of Rhaegar and Lyanna. I mean, the prince that was promised was supposed to come from that line.

I'm just saying. saying yeah there's just a lot of things in this passage um i love that you called out that aria scene mostly because it's not the cutest scene in the books it's actually one of the saddest in my opinion i'm like no can you break that back but anyways like amongst those other things that are callouts like the having the horse with wings like obviously we need something a little more useful than a fucking like pegasus right but this idea of an animal that can carry you with wings does appear by the end of this book dragons yes uh very soon indeed like in like two three chapters we're right there everyone literally two chapters yeah but not

right there yet uh and then jr asks john to have the courage to live and i think that this is interesting right um and maybe i'm just like colored by also my experience of this recent season of game of thrones where barak don darien says live to to aria and it's just like is john gonna have that will or desire to live, like, even when shit gets tough, as it does in dance, and maybe when he's brought back from the dead? I don't know. It's gonna be something that he's

gonna have to do. And then I also like how much of the stories revealed in the dialogue, like, JR speaks of Jon's, sure, Jon's honor regarding his family and wanting to, like, do his duty to them is what put him on the King's Road, and then, sure, John's honor regarding his family and wanting to do his duty to them is what put him on the king's road, and then that it's his friend's honor that saved him,

and that there's more than one kind of way for honor to exist. And then, of course, J.R. was counting on having honorable men on the watch, men like Sam Tarly, who'd bring back someone who's like a runaway John, because they knew. Apparently, I love how we find out because they knew like apparently i love how

we find out like they knew he was gonna fucking go of course he loves his family you know whether they love him or not he doesn't know he's not sure of but he loves them and that's the only place he ever had and he feels alone with the wall and i want to point out this passage it just reminds me of course of harry potter of uh yeah sorcerer's stone a philosopher's stone there are all kinds of courage said dumbledore is smiling it takes a great deal of bravery to stand up to our enemies but just as much to stand up to our friends and it also reminds me of course of the patriarch ned stark that you know when can a man be when can a man be brave? Can a man be brave when he's afraid? It's the only time

a man can be brave, Eliana. That's it. Yes. And all of them put, like, their fucking lives on the line for Jon. Ten points to House Tarly, but only to Sam, because fuck Randall Tarly. Ten points to Gryffindor.

And another thing regarding houses, I just like the Here You Stand from J.R.R. Morwan. So great. Perfect, perfect punctuation. I know in the pilot Game of Thrones season one episode, one episode, you know, they diminished some of the episode, especially because the language was too flowery. But in here it works.

Yes, it's cheesy to have each character say their house words all the time but i like it i'm a cheese ball i'm into it yeah they're finding them saying winter's coming all the time though but it's very much like you know you're saying the flower language like i would be a little like how he glimmered i'd kind of raise eyebrows and be like okay and damned everyone's so dramatic well and i think that's where some of these shows like it's where you buffer that line between like the cw and hbo you know i love okay there are a lot of great shows on the cw right now as i've discussed before such as riverdale and uh jane the virgin anyways that's true i'm just saying yeah for sure. Jane the Virgin actually has character development unlike Charlotte.

Never mind. J.R. Mormont then goes on to talk about his family, you know, here we stand, and that he would not actually leave the Wall for his sisters even though he loves them. Jon's like, I have nowhere! We do get confirmation in this chapter, the only place in the series, that this is Mage's brother. J.R. went to the Wall, so I love that this is mage's brother. Jeor went to the wall. So I love that because we obviously don't really have that primogeniture takeover for the female succession

in many other places in the north. Not often, not often held besides, you know, like Barbary being the widow of House Dustin, basically, and they're at House Riswell as one of the advisors. But I just think it's cool to see that the Mormonts don't give a fuck. That's one thing that's always been true. They just don't care. They are who they are.

Whether not giving a fuck means being a fuckboy or just cool like the women of House Mormont. Everybody except Jorah is what we're saying. Yes, that's pretty much what we mean. Good night to everyone in House Mormont except for Jorah is what we're saying. Yes, that's pretty much what we mean. Good night to everyone in House Mormont except for Jorah Mormont. Yes, do not tuck him in.

No. I have no place, Jon wanted to say. I'm a bastard. I have no rights, no name, no mother, and now not even a father. The words would not come. I just wanted us to have that line in here did I nail it for you?

you did, he's so dramatic I just love how dramatic Jon is oh yeah, little bitch, I love him I do J.R. then reveals that actually so now that we're here a lot of rangers have gone missing this year not just Benjen

and then in the background the raven is squeaking, Ben! Jen! And I love it. Sorry. I think it's hilarious. It's hilarious. He goes, Ben! Jen!

Ben! Jen! They're like, he slips them up as two words. So funny. It makes me think of Ben 10, but it's nothing like that at all. Anyway. Thanks for giving me. J.R. Mormont starts talking about the important war on the other side of the wall

and that Jon's heritage as a Stark and his wolf would be important for it and he believes Jon is here for a reason and I just love that it really cements especially in this chapter that like this closes the first book however it starts off this launching pad

for the mystical things in Jon's plot and john's role as a hero of the story oh absolutely and like part of being a hero right is making difficult choices and that's why jr asks john again at the end are you a brother of the Night's Watch, or only a bastard boy who wants to play at war? So good. It's so good. I also, it's fun to see that J.R. Mormont phrases it like this, this play at war. It reminds me again of Ned Stark, because, you know, J.R. Mormont is now Jon's other father figure, alright? Let's be real.

And, like, he knows the difference between what it means to just play at war, to be a boy, Let's be real. And like, he knows the difference between what it means to just play at war, to be a boy and imagine like war is about like in the songs and to have to actually do the hard work of it. Put your life on the line and the stakes of all of it. Yeah. The end of the chapter is John in his head, in his heart, asking his family to forgive him. And he acknowledges that the wall is his place now. And J.R. says, go put on your sword.

I love the way that ends. I'm sorry. I know that we're ending on that line, but also, you know, put on your sword. It's not just any sword. It's the sword that Jaor gave him. Yeah, it is a sword that will guard the night. Definitely. It's a great like, it sounds almost like an anti-climax in a way because it's john not doing something big however this choice is huge it's one of john's three tests that we talked

about last episode uh that will probably lead to that fourth test where he dies because he fails it and i just think that while it's an anti-climax to have this big hero of the story character you know uh turned down going to help his family and staying at this army colony north of the wall it's not what you would do with your character usually it's not what you would do with your hero your hero would be out there trying to fight for the good and john knows that he has to stay there that is his role i think it also very much works because you know when you think about how this is a larger story and series, this is just a perfect... The way that we have

all of John's chapters here, it's a perfect exposition, right? Of setting up, like, alright, here's who John is. Here are the lessons that he learns, and then here are all the different things that are testing him right now. What's he going to choose? And then that cements his sort of arc for the rest of his story, which...

Yeah, and just to cover, we only have two more chapters before we hit the appendix in A Game of Thrones after Jon IX happens. And that lightning round is very short. There's Catelyn XI, where Brob Stark is proclaimed king in the north at Riverrun. And then of course, as we said before, there's Daenerys 10, where Daenerys pays for life with death and brings dragons back into the world. Yeah. That'd be the appendix. Yeah, which nothing exciting to see here. I'm sure there's stuff we could point out. Not today. But Jon's big moment. Jon's choice. You you know this is john's choice this is his moment is he a man of the watch or is he a stark that's what the first book is it's that exposition it's setting things up because you see the way the rest of this book ends right it ends with rob is proclaimed king in the north it ends with daenerys has gone through this arc of like learning

to find her strength and then she it ends with now she's has gone through this arc of like learning to find her strength and then she it ends with now she's the mother of dragons and that very much becomes her identity for the rest of the series and Jon's is man of the night's watch yeah so there's a lot of debate about it in the fandom and here we see that they hold their vows very clearly and very carefully at the watch and Jon obviously has his thoughts about how everybody breaks their vows and goes to Molestown. But will John's death actually absolve him of his vows? What do you think? I think the vows are bullshit.

They make you swear and swear. I think they obviously can't control them having sex with women or bastards, so just leave him be you know he dies for the watch literally for the watch i don't i don't know i think you know he's probably he's obviously gonna leave right something has to happen but i do feel differently about what it means for his vows because like i just don't think it absolves him of it i understand the argument that like oh until death right and i guess he technically dies but i just don't think it absolves him of it. I understand the argument that like, oh, until death, right? And I guess he technically dies. But I just don't really like that death ends the vow loophole. Because I always just look at the 79 sentinels who have been placed into the wall. And granted, they were deserters. But, you know, now the whole point is even in death, they have to watch the wall. I don't know if it's like that i don't mind what they did in the uh show which is the original source material that we're talking about the books that were

created off of it today yeah um i don't know if i actually mind it in the show he has that talk with sam was it with sam or ed it's with one of them where he says you know my own brothers they killed me you know i mean i think at least death would absolve it to the point that I don't think I would be doing anything. You know, I don't think I would go back for these people. I think I would say, good luck. Bye. You guys murdered me.

I don't know. I really liked that he did that. He had the hangings. And then, of course, the sword for Jan Osen. I think there's some good stuff before and some good stuff after but i don't think he's gonna stay in the night's watch he will be absolved somehow even if it's just fuck you bitches you killed me you know yeah i don't know if it's that he's gonna be like absolved or not and even if he is to an extent from being killed

and i don't again i also don't mind how they did in the show like it makes sense i just think it'll be more complicated because what now he goes back down to the rest of the north like it's not it's something that's not addressed in the show but you can see in this chapter that it's something everyone's gonna be skeptical of they're gonna be like we all literally know you you have a wolf we all know that you're Ned Stark's bastard who went and joined the wall okay and you became lord commander everyone's fucking heard of it Miranda Royce is fucking talking about it in the bail. Everyone knows, and people are going to be like, why are you here? Yeah, absolutely.

Like, what the fuck's going on? There has to be some sort of repercussions. Yeah, and I think it's going to make people, I don't know, distrust him a little bit more. Like, oh, you took a vow, dude. Like, how do we know you can live up to whatever you're going to say for us, even though we know it's a little different? Like, Jon's not going to want to stay there. there like who wants to stick around the people who want you dead yeah and i mean on that expectation i mean also look at how that news will travel and what future people will think of him right like if he meets denarius what if that's one of the things she

knows about him that's true because it's hard to like just tell people yeah he came back from the dead he's gonna fucking believe that all right there There's that, and also, he has... There's that entire narrative about bastardy. Especially, you have, what, Ramsay Bolton Snow? Stilton? Up there, being like, I'm Lord of Winterfell now, and I'm doing crazy shit! And everyone's gonna be like, so, Jon, you left the Night's Watch? Are you gonna be doing crazy shit and everyone's gonna be like so john you left the night's watch are you gonna be doing

crazy shit too yeah it's uh the show adaptation obviously for him coming back is all we have so it's kind of made it a little yikes but at the same time i understand that it's gonna definitely affect who he is and definitely affect what they say and i'm also banking on john not coming back completely john as we've talked about before that you know only death can pay for life yada yada and definitely affect what they say. And I'm also banking on Jon not coming back completely. Jon, as we've talked about before, that, you know, only death can pay for life, yada yada. He's going to die and come back and he's not going to be the boy he was. That's the big kill the boy and let the man be born. I mean, obviously he came back wrong.

He can't even like fucking pet his dog, okay? Like, he's wrong now. I was talking with Maester Mary, aka faceless maester on twitter and she was actually talking about how she wonders if a lot of john's storyline upon resurrection is going to be him trying to find or relearn his humanity after having lost it i thought that was an interesting idea because I don't think we get that many clues of what Jon's storyline is in the books. And, you know, as Mary was saying, like it seems as though a lot of the storyline

Jon has in the show is probably Stannis', especially with that battle for Winterfell against Ramsay Snow. So what actually is in store? Yeah, and I do think, as as i said kind of on our season eight episode four episode this week uh stannis serves very much so as a subject of you know learning for both john and something that danny's character should learn from it serves as this literary way for us to see two ways a character can go and that fire consumes.

And I think that Jon sees Stannis as this, you know, second child and sees the pain he suffered at never getting his due and how it's made him be the righteous man he is. Take the throne and, you know, kill the scum and all that. But when Stannis breaks, he breaks. Yeah. Being a middle child is hard. I don't know anything about it. Is what I've heard. Yeah. No, I'm just like, i don't know anything about it is what i've heard yeah no i'm just like we don't know as only children yes only children fuck we need other perspectives on this show do we no i'm a bastard so yeah that's true we have that i'm just like we don't have that diverse perspective of what's it like to have siblings i don't know speaking though of siblings

john feels very connected with his siblings over in winterfell but at the same time he's not as much as he thinks that he has no place he also is portrayed to an extent at the beginning of the story is like somewhat of a lone wolf right he connects with aria and in rob but he's also just like i'm a loner i'm 16 no one can know my heart but just like it ends with him becoming a man of the night's watch he goes from this loner who is pissing off all the other kids at the night's watch to being someone with like a lot of good friends and brothers absolutely it's you know he's the lone wolf he uh has no pack he's always been it's just how ghost was found he was found separate from the pack yeah it is kind of sad

though because i guess after this and when he comes back to the castle he still has those friends but then he has this weird trajectory he's loner, has friends loner again yeah I think that whole idea of Jon especially I do think the show has at least captured a little bit of him sending his friends away and doing his duty knowing what's best for everyone

but never actually caring or knowing who he is I do think they do a good job of showing him as a loner in the show like like even right now he's all like broody and he's like i don't want to chug with all my friends and i'm like chug john chug we didn't see him chug sansa's out there drunk as hell that was my favorite part and she's back on she's like i'm sure she's just talking shit at john drunk sansa's great she's just like go on i believe in you and like this is actually a thing.

Turns out that I wanted that the show gave me that I didn't know that I wanted. I kind of loved that little bit. I was saying all the Danny stuff, but I digress from talking about the show now. Sorry, everyone. We're a book podcast, I swear. We're a book podcast, in case you forgot. So when we do our show stuff, remember, we're a book podcast. Yeah, I mean, that's's the end we don't get anything

else other than you know J.O.R. telling him time to choose and then the chapter ends it's a cliffhanger well kind of like it cliffhangs with alright so we're gonna go with the rangers go get your sword it's just such a great like first episode kind of ending even though it's not only

one episode it's a whole book season book and I guess people didn't have to wait that long for book two which came out within episode kind of ending even though it's not only one episode it's a whole book but then he's and i guess people didn't have to wait um that long for book two which came out within like the next year or two and then they're like all right we're going on the great ranging the greatest ranging of them all yeah john finally gets that fucking adventure that he wanted well our hero has to go on adventures and we are going to be starting a Clash of Kings with John. We'll be back to jump into Clash in a week.

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