Girls Gone Canon Cast - ASOIAF Episode 56 - ACOK Jon VIII/Outro

Episode Date: June 28, 2019

  “Our honor means no more than our lives, so long as the realm is safe.” - Jon VIII, ACOK  Intro by Anton Langhage  -------  Eliana's twitter: https://twitter.com/arhythmetric Eliana's reddit account: https://www.reddit.com/user/glass_table_girl Eliana's blog: https://themanyfacedblog.wordpress.com/ Chloe's twitter: https://twitter.com/liesandarbor Chloe's blog: www.liesandarborgold.com   

Hello and welcome to episode 56, John 8, A Clash of Kings. I am one of your hosts, Chloe. You know me from the internet as Liza Narber on Twitter, Tumblr, and LizaNarberGold.com. And I'm another one of your hosts, Eliana. You might know me as GlassTableGirl over on Reddit, on the Maester Monthly Podcast, a pseudo-monthly monthly podcast and as arithmetica over on twitter wow you're just calling you guys out like that no someone else called us out and i just want to remind everyone we are pseudo monthly we made no promises where we make promises like we make and keep our promises we are going to be presenting to you part four of the Dance of the Dragons, which does focus on kind of the aftermath of the dance, including the Hour of the Wolf. A lot of people might be excited about that with the end of Game of Thrones with the Starks going south. So stay tuned for that.

Check it out on our Patreon at patreon.com slash girls gone canon. Yep. tuned for that check it out on our patreon at patreon.com slash girls gone canon yep and that'll be up soon after this episode sometime about this june sometime you know before july yeah that is that is how these episodes work and speaking of patreon we also have a stretch goal it is our A Feast for Feasts in which Chloe and I will stay cooking show while talking about A Feast for Crows we thought that this was a great idea

and if you would like to see us do it we are going to feast for feasts talk about why we like A Feast for Crows and talk about our favorite bits and also eat and make food if you ever have wanted to see your two mothers cook together, we've never cooked together. We actually haven't.

So this could be horrible. This could be awful. That's true. Or it could be great. It could be interesting. I mean, I think both you and I like to cook and we both love food. But of course, I mean, you know,

being in the kitchen, it's a different thing, right? Yeah, it's an intense environment. You might just, you know, slay someone you's a different thing right yeah it's an intense environment you might just you know slay someone you thought was your brother wow i was going for the catchy hit earworm too many cooks too many cooks in the kitchen i was thinking that actually at first but then i was like how can i tie this in with john eight in a clash of kings oh well that's one way which is yeah one way or another, I'm gonna stab ya. I'm gonna get you. I'm sorry, I don't know where this is coming from.

Everyone, please don't help us reach the stretch goal. Chloe's gonna kill me. Ooh, I do get to use knives. Um, hey! Speaking of knives and killing and other stuff, Eliana, you were recently on an episode of not a cast podcast the one true chapter by chapter a song of ice and fire podcast you make it sound like hosted

by poor quentin and brinda b fish you make they say that that's what they say you make it sound like i killed them you get something i went in killed them. You make it sound like I went in there and I reversed Red Bedding Night. Like, I went in there, right, and I was a brother of the Night's Watch, and they were Craster and J.R. Mormont, who, I'm gonna throw

this opinion out there, everyone. J.R. Mormont would want you to drink out of his skull. Oh my god, this is in a... I've made Chloe listen to this out of his skull. Oh my god, this is inappropriate. I've made Chloe listen to this spiel of mine. J.R. Mormont wants you to drink out of his skull. He's a master mixologist. I think that is an appropriate

way to honor him, but it has to be a fancy drink. So like goth daddy. Yeah. I think that's what he wants. J.R. Mormont is a goth bear daddy oh yeah um i realize i haven't talked about this episode so i went on not a guest i guess i'm not a guest i'm gonna leave all that in and and uh discuss with them denarius nine in A Game of Thrones, which is, of course, since this is a reread, we're just going to tell you what happens. The one where Daenerys finds that only death can pay for life, but what is life worth when all the rest is gone?

And thus, you know, she ends up having to smother her husband and tying it in to Dany's arc as a Shakespearean tragic hero. I wrote a thesis on it if you want to go check it out she'll never stop she will never log off uh yeah it's a it's an interesting chapter because danny has to kill someone that she not only loves but kind of respects right uh she's grown to love this person and she's grown to really respect them as a leader. And it's a good chapter as we read Jon and Corrin Halfhand, of course, in Jon VIII. Yes.

I have listened to part of the episode. I have not gotten to finish. My drive for work is not long enough for me to finish an episode of Nauticast podcast. So it's important that there's like a trademark next to that. There really is. If you can trademark like inflections.

It's almost wrong not to say it that way. It's kind of fun. I understand why they do it. Hey, this week we had an awesome tweet from our friend Vanessa Cole over at Night's Cast at VK Cole artist. She's an amazing artist. Not only do we love discussing a song of ice and fire with Vanessa,

but I love looking at her pieces of art that she creates. And this Egret piece is beautiful. It has these gorgeous kissed by fire curls. And I love the eyes. It's very intense. It's a great piece of art check it out over at her twitter like i said vk cool artist and please check out a lot of her other art she just put out this awesome uh dire wolf with the northern crown piece and it's fully colored it's

really pretty i just retweeted it a bit ago on my twitter so check it out you guys may like it also just retweeted it yeah it's gorgeous it's inspired by Rob and it's very metal, you know, with the blood dripping from the crown. It's really great. Yeah, she posted it with a Catelyn quote. The Catelyn could hear Grey Wind howling half a castle away. He smells the blood, she thought, through stone walls and wooden doors. Through night and rain, he still knows the scent of death and ruin. Same.

I can't wait for Cat Chapter someday. my god someday someday everything someday uh we all got another piece of fan art thank you everyone i'm so glad people have actually took us up on this and are sending us fan art it's nice maester mary slipped into my dms and sent me a picture that she made of a little chibi, Jon Snow with a beanie baby, also adorable, Rhaegal. And there's a little heart between them.

I think that's supposed to be Rhaegal, right? I don't know. It could be whatever you want it to be. It's beautiful. It's adorable. It's cute. Yeah, and we'll see if we can share this with all of you it's great give up the dragon mary give it up yeah and thank you to both vanessa and mary for sending these we're gonna come back to actually some insights that they've had and shared with people over the internet later on this episode and we got an awesome email from

our friend alexandra she sent us a quick message and said that she's currently re-listening to the sansa chapters because she's feeling nostalgic about being a tween girl and it's hard i agree yeah she says every motion is the most intense and overwhelming thing and you make dumb decisions absolutely everything is so exhausting uh but she did also want to chime in about fake agon when we were talking about him a couple weeks ago and how to denarius his true identity will always be a mystery uh she says it reminds her of the story of two princes in the tower of london king richard the third may or may not have killed there was an imposter pretending to be the younger prince also richard in the time of king henry the seventh's reign whether or not he was a lost

prince didn't matter the fact that powerful political parties were what was willing to back him that was the important part i love that historical parallel absolutely and you know of course the song of ice and fire is very much inspired by The War of the Roses, so definitely think this is something that George is playing with, so again, awesome, awesome catch, Alexandra. And I think, uh, I don't know. I definitely think that this

is something that we're gonna see, of course, when it comes to Fagon, who is in this extended version of the story in the books. Yeah. We have a pretty long lightning round. We might want to call it a thunderstorm. It really is. It's just like, it's a little long.

It's the end of Clash. We're going through the Blackwater, which you might remember us doing 172,000 hours of the Blackwater with Sansa. But we are going to give you some brief summaries of what happened during these kind of end chapters in A Clash of Kings. We are hitting the very last chapter

after Jon. Jon VIII is the second to last chapter in A Clash of Kings. So this is very big. Very big. Tyrion XII. Tyrion brings word of the Stark boy's demise to Cersei, who later repays his gift in a tenfold Cersei way by beating Aleaia in front of him.

Rude. Catelyn 7. Catelyn gets Jaime drunk and then calls for Brienne's sword. Theon 5. Asha begs her brother to forsake his folly, but he refuses to leave his newly acquired seat. forsake his folly, but he refuses to leave his newly acquired seat. Sansa 5. Sansa awaits her fate at the Blackwater in Maegor's Holdfast. Davos 3. Davos' fear of a chain boom on the Blackwater becomes real. Tyrion 13. Watching the fleets blaze, Sandor Clegane breaks in battle, leaving Tyrion to lead the sortie. Sansa 6.

I miss these chapters so much. Queen Cersei fears the city's fall and Sansa learns why Illyn Payne is the only man in Maker's Holdfast with the Highborn Ladies. Tyrion 14. Podrick Payne saves Tyrion from being cut down by his fellow man Dinmore on the battlefield did you

like that because that was for you thank you i appreciate it i did like it i really did sansa 7 sandra clegane tries to spirit sansa away but she declines a ride chloe wrote these he demands a song and later the battle is won what uh denarius five they depart from karth and danny receives a very nice and poisoned scarab but thankfully arstan and belwas are there to save the day aria 10 aria learns of her brother's death and Roose Bolton begins to plan Robb's demise, unbeknownst to her or pretty much anyone else. Arya and company kill the guards and escape. Sansa 8. Sansa Stark is set aside and she finds a chance at escape.

Theon 6. Theon is betrayed by Reek. Tyrion 15. Tyrion assesses his battle damage. And that brings us to Jon VIII. As the weather worsens, Corrin makes the men recant their vows. Later that night, Corrin takes Jon aside, ordering him to yield when they are taken by the wildlings, and not to balk. He promises to tell Jeor that Jon john did his duty but when the wildlings

are upon them they offer john mercy but first force him to kill corin john knows that the end has come near when corin finally permits a fire i love that this chapter throws you in the middle of it just like ned and sansa chapters it's conveying time has passed and time is passing. A lot of it is very between the lines. Some of it is a flashback, some of it's a memory, and some of it is current. The whole chapter is kind of accented with Jon thinking, today is the day I die. Not today.

Only your innocence, Jon. Jon fetches wood for the first time at a Quarren's request. It will feel good to feel warm again, if only for a little while, he told himself, while he hacked bare branches from the trunk of a dead tree. Ghost sat on his haunches, watching, silent as ever. Will he howl for me when I'm dead, as Bronze Wolf howled when he fell, John wondered. Will shaggy dog howl far off in Winterfell and Greywind in Nymaria, wherever they might be? Aww.

You're welcome. Thank you. We don't hear, I guess, ghost howl when Jon dies, but we do hear a ghost howl at other times that might be close in proximity. In the Vale in Sansa's Ark, when you hear the ice wolf, the lone ghost wolf howling in the mountains.

Yeah, there's also that moment in that Dany chapter that's close by in Dance where she I believe also thinks that she hears a wolf howling. A-woo! A-woo! A-woo!

After he lights the fire. Wow, I really tried to make that work that didn't work after he lights the fire cord says as shy as a maid on her wedding night the big ranger said in a soft voice a near as fair sometimes a man forgets how pretty a fire can be and of course like in a moment we have egret who's who's kissed by fire, but like, something about this language kind of reminds me of Daenerys too. You know, she's like a dragon, which is a fire

made flesh. She's pretty shy, I guess, on her wedding night, but like, that's kind of gross. We're gonna quickly move on. She's fair, in that she's very pale, very fair hair, and of course she's considered by many to be pretty in the way that a fire is.

And she would, I think, she warms Jon for a spell before bringing on doom. It also reminds me of the song of all the maids, right? I loved A Maid as Fair as Summer, the seasons of my love. And I think that each of these girls really does have a place there maybe denarius is the maid of winter uh egret is of course i i would guess the maid is you know red is autumn yes i think that's a great great connection um there's been a lot of great

discussion also about that song and john's. And maybe we'll get there. Maybe we'll talk about that one day. But not today. That was off the cuff. It was great. Just like off the cuff. Unlike Corrin Halfhand's plans for Jon. Oh my god.

Or like Corrin's hand. Wow! So Jon wonders if Corrin had ever loved a woman. And he also wonders if a kiss had ever felt as good as the fire right now on his hands. I'm like, John, I don't know. I don't think you can actually judge if a kiss has ever felt so good as this fire on your hands. You have literally barely had any physical contact in your life, orphan boy. You sad small boy.

He ran away from the other girl, right? I'm like, Sam. Sam's got game. Sam's out there like, please love that's all i have no they're like okay same asking you shall receive right that's sam i guess of the five rangers only he and corin are still left here and then we get that sort of flashback of how john had hoped for squire Dalbridge to make it, but a horn blast killed that dream. The eagle grew closer and closer all this time. The eagle is like this recurring

background noise, really. Halfhand sent Ebon, Egbon, back to Mormont, and Stonesnake went as well to obscure their tracks, but he returned to camp. Ebon had suggested sending John instead of him, as John's still a boy but corin believes that

john has a different role to play and i really loved the passage here just how it goes he is half a boy still no said corin he is a man of the night's watch i i like just how he says no john has a different role john like john he knew that john had a chance at assimilating where none of them did corinne halfhand he's a legend he would never assimilate ebon do you think ebon would be able to assimilate into the wildlings john has the true north in him i think that's interesting and it shows that corinne halfhand knows his men he knows that they each have a role to play and he knows what role to cast them as he was talking about in the last chapter. Interestingly enough, Jon even learns that, even with the Wildlings,

after his time with the Free Folk, later on in the fifth book, In a Dance with Dragons, he tells Stannis, you know, this is the strength of this Wildling leader. This is the strength of this man. Jon, in his time with the Free Folk, he really learns all of that, you know, know your men, like Eddard always preached. For him to internalize both of those lessons from Corrin and Ned shows, of course, that he's learning. He's starting to understand what it means to be a leader. Obviously, there's a lot of feelings and turns out the stakes are very, very high when you're a 16 year old boy in lord commander the night's watch but you know whatever i mean he's just you know rob but better i guess here i mean he's making harder decisions in my opinion i guess that's not all completely true but at the same time how do you judge the weight of that against itself with war um i digress every single morning that they wake the eagle is there and it is watching them

yeah like you said it's a background noise on these chapters for Jon now it replaces actually the looming red comet in the sky like instead of having the bright red symbol of hope we have this fucking bird and it's this

it instills this feeling of dread and anxiety and of being watched for these nights watchmen oh they've become the watched and it gives john's story here that horror movie feel the dread of an inescapable situation do you like how it just breezed past i was like oh i just had an epiphany oh my god i had a galaxy brain moment right there. It does become like birds though, right? Like this is some Hitchcock shit. This is like they're waking and it's getting colder and it's a nightmare.

It's a waking nightmare. It's also interesting that the eagle, like you said, it's not a symbol of hope. It's dread and anxiety. And where they usually have the crows, you know, joining around them and just cawing crow. And usually it's blood Raven and brands watchful. I it's no longer them. It's someone else watching someone. They don't know. It's not the same comfort level as blood Raven and brand on J or

shoulder, you know, corn, uh, Corin, ha, Corin, uh,

the men that are parting from camp so stone snake and ebon going opposite directions kind of it reminds me of danny sending the blood riders out for karth yes but corin kind of hopes that they don't come back and that they make it yeah then danny's like please do come back that'd be really great tell us something yeah one's in the snow one's in the desert both places suck a shadow cat also startles stone snacks mare which ended up breaking her leg and that led to ghosts at least having an awesome meal they tried putting some horse blood in their porridge and apparently that was gross i think that they did it wrong so i don't know i've always like i go to hot pot a lot it's my new favorite thing it's so good it's just like

the best meal right like you could just do anything and there's a really good all you can eat one near me that i'm gonna make you go to sometime and i always think about getting the pig blood i always think about it but i also think like maybe i'm not ready i don't know like i like the bloody meaty like taste of it that mercurial kind of taste i'm into that you actually like that yeah huh i that is really weird what i don't like about the taste of blood and that's why i always have a really hard time whenever like my lip cracks i'm like i hate this taste because it tastes so like like you said like mercury or like metallic it's obviously the iron in our blood um so maybe i'm just healthy

who knows but i don't like that taste yet i do like foods that are made up of blood but like that metallic taste is why i'm not into a lot of different preparations of liver unless like that taste is gone but like there are things that have blood like right like blood sausage i'm fine with that or or there's this traditional filipino food called like which basically means it's been blood into and it's a stew right where you stew pig i think in blood and we eat it with like rice cakes and it's good but it doesn't taste metallic so i i think it's all in the preparation in that i guess you don't really have that many options out in the wilderness of the desert when an eagle and shadow cats are hunting you whatevs but at the same time

they did it wrong when you have become the watch yeah this is chopped this is this is chopped and they failed it's like a chopped versus survivor. Yeah, but Corin gets chopped at the end. Oh my god, he already was chopped. Oh my god, wow. Wow. It's not like I'm talking about Jamie. Settle down.

No, I'm excited. This is what our cooking show, A Feast for Feasts, is is gonna be like everyone two cooks two cooks enter one one exits so they take some of the meat uh they strip down the meat and they chew on the meat on the ride for nutrients and such and sustenance i guess and just you know overall life and it just occurred to me john while this chapter he he spends it thinking you know like i don't want to betray. I don't want to go over to the other side. I don't want to do this. I don't want to.

He slowly falls into his northern kind of wild side. He's like chewing meat without saying anything about it. He doesn't balk at that. He doesn't like the blood porridge, obviously, but he does eat it and shut up. He like shuts up and eats his porridge. I he does eat it and shut up he like shuts up and eats his porridge i don't know the real north like i said is totally in him and he kind of resigns himself to this as he goes even though he doesn't want to yeah much like ned oh wow yeah his duty to eat this porridge stone snake also offered to pull a squire dullbridge when they were in this situation

since they can't both ride double like on on a horse but rather than that corinne orders him to try to make for the fist to tell mormont what they saw and he's like you can do that a horse i believe in you he has no chance john thought when he watched stone snake vanish over a snow-covered ridge, a tiny black bug crawling across a rippling expanse of white. Last time we see him. So what if he's Coldhands? I'm just saying, like, that would be so anticlimactic. But what if? I guess the whole, like, dead for a bajillion years thing that Leaf says, but...

I mean, whatever. Never know. It could be fun. It's probably just gonna be like first man number seven at this point i mean i'm down with that i'm down to that i just think the idea of a snack with hands is funny no i agree also it's like also maybe not everything has to be something yeah yeah i'm just putting that out there even though i'm a podcaster i'm allowed to say that sometimes i know wow i'm giving away the podcast secret sorry sometimes things are just what they are but you know what this also is if not that

john he has no chance no chance and... No choice. Kinda. That's kinda what this is. I mean, he really is given no choice here. Yeah, I mean, he did have the other choice, but the other choice kinda sucked, too. Both of the choices sucked. So... Anyway. Die or live. Yeah.

He's basically just deciding, do you want to die here or over there? Alright. Yep. And then after... After Stonesnake's gone, you know gone it feels a lot colder and lonelier probably because there's only two of them left and sometimes they just walk for days in silence a lot

and up here, John doesn't dream which I think is interesting with your language earlier of how this is a waking nightmare, that's it yeah, it is it's a waking nightmare, I mean every second of this sucks, it's cold, it's awful waking nightmare i mean every second of this sucks it's cold it's awful they think they're gonna die any moment they have no food they're just like hunting here and they're

on accident um we get that passage and there's a lot of connection with him and his siblings here in this entire chapter but when he slept he did, not of wolves, nor his brothers or anything. Even dreams cannot live up here, he told himself. And it makes me wonder if this whole chapter of him being so far north, you know, so far away from his pack, besides Bran, who just opened his eye, maybe it's too far for wolf dreams alone, right? It has a similar magic connection, maybe with Silverwing not wanting to go north of the wall with Queen Alysanne mounted atop it. Bran has different and more developed powers than his siblings. Yes, he's awakened Jon's third eye, but maybe once you get far enough, that magic doesn't quite work without an extra shot of something like Jojen paste or some blood sacrifice or, you know. Yeah, it's either it's too far and thus the magic doesn't work or it's like i don't know the others are using some weird suppressant or something it also is interesting because they haven't talked about

weirwoods in this chapter so i'm wondering if maybe there aren't as many weirwoods out here so there's less to see yeah and i mean if the weirwoods are part of what connects them to those kinds of wolf dreams of course those were dreams though i mean like the guys but there's a guy fucking living in his eagle so something something works in terms of the magic right yeah the weirwoods i guess the children in the forest chose not to plant them up here which would make it harder to extend that Wi-Fi connection. By the fire, Corrin makes John recite their vows together with him. John opened and closed his burnt fingers, holding tight to the words in his mind, praying that his father's gods would give him the strength to die bravely when his hour came it would not be long

now this reminds me of ned in his time in the black cells especially when he starts thinking of liana and he's just like oh gods i'm going mad it's like that only john actually has a few more years it's not that long but it's not that short Jon pick one well I mean in the longer scheme of things and other ways that his life could have gone you know he didn't have he dies pretty soon but also it's not today like he thinks

it is are you gonna say not today one more time in this podcast I could if you do it one more time I'm firing you I want to call out right now a tweet from Jolene A called aka at our galaxies she tweeted us a video

of Lena Headey having a humorous moment and she goes see this that face that Lena Headey has at the end that's the exact face girls got in canon pull at each other over Skype while trying to record an episode that keeps getting derailed by top quality quips and puns and that is today's episode. We have been jinxed by

Jolene. I don't appreciate you, Jo, because it's like you're insinuating we get derailed and I just don't agree. We would never. I think this is part of the rail, yes. Are we on the rail? Are we off the rail? No one knows.

I'm getting back on the rail. Corin thinks off the rail? No one knows. I'm getting back on the rail. Corrin thinks all the fires will go out should the wall fall. I love that. It just reminds me of, you know, zombies. It's the bigger thing, the bigger picture. You know, Tywin has that shitty line, you know, what's, you know, a wedding party. What's killing a wedding party against the whole entire realm and all this war?

But Corrin's like, it's worth it if we die, if it means we protected the wall, because all these fires will go out. All these people are going to die. It's a recurring thing that comes up throughout A Song of Ice and Fire, right? Like, what's killing a dozen men at dinner as opposed to a thousand in battle? And that's kind of similar, you know, that's the corollary to stannis's like what is one bastard boy's life against the realm but here in the north they you know life is so preserved because once you've battled the others every single life has meaning, I'm gonna throw this out there.

What if all of this, and I was gonna throw this out later on, but I'm gonna throw it out here also. Because they're zombies, what if it means that their death also has meaning? Not just their life. Is this the rebuttal to that? No. It's not.

It's not the rebuttal. Are you sure it's not? Yes. Okay. Anyway, speaking of death, Corrin tells Jon that what happened to them may not be so easy as death because only Corrin's trying to

get out of this crazy train that we call life because Gotta die to get out. Cersei was wrong in like game of thrones where she tells ned uh in the game of thrones winner you die there is no middle ground but again there is and per a twitter discussion today between bookshelf set and maester mary sometimes living is the hard choice and that's what john's gonna have to do in the next book so corin tells john that no they will yield when the wildlings come upon them and corin commands him to yield that his honor as

a man of the night's watch demands it of him then hear me if we are taken you will go over to them as the wildling girl you captured once urged you. They may demand that you cut your cloak to ribbons, that you swear them an oath on your father's grave, that you curse your brothers and your lord commander. You must not balk, whichever is asked of you. Do as they bid you, but in your heart, remember who and what you are. Ride with them, eat with them, fight fight with them for as long as it takes and watch yes it's it's he doesn't really tell john what they're gonna ask of him he's like yeah

all these things these fucking cutting your cloaks wearing an oath on your father's grave cursing your brothers and your lord commander these are all very paltry compared to what actually happens, okay? Yeah. Gotta warn- I guess there's a reason you didn't warn him. Of course, he's referencing Mance, who was once his brother, you know, with the cut your cloak to ribbons, which we're going to talk about in a little bit. Absolutely. And all of that, like you said, is all folly. Like, that's silly compared to what they're about to ask Jon to do.

That's nothing. Yeah. Like, what they're about to ask john to do that's nothing yeah like what they're going to yeah and i mean like corn's like but you got to do it because john has to learn what they're doing and like what they've been seeking why are they digging all these holes i'll do as you say john said reluctantly but you will tell them won't you the old bear at least you'll tell him that I never broke my oath. Corrin Halfhand gazed at him across the fire, his eyes lost in pools of shadow. When I see him next, I swear it. He gestured at the fire.

More wood. I want it bright and hot. Talk about a blaze of glory, right? Going out in one. For sure. It's literally him going out in a blaze of glory. He's lighting that fire, giving away their position. Yeah.

Bringing the wildlings upon them. I love the line, but in your heart, remember who and what you are. And then I also love how this conversation at the end almost exactly mirrors something we've heard once before in a Game of Thrones from Eddard Nine. And tell him I've not been with no one else. I swear it, my lord, by the old gods and the new. So you'll tell him I'm waiting, won't you? I don't want no jewels or nothing, just him. He was always good to me, truly.

I will tell them, child, and and i promise you barah shall not go wanting oh yeah it reminds me a lot of that passage and it also reminds me of of course another part of the game of thrones we'll talk about your mother when i return john they're not returning john they're not and i mean you can see how much john like with ned cares about what jr mormon thinks about him because he's like you'll tell him that i didn't actually break my oath right because he wants his new daddy figure to to know about how he kept his oaths uh another quote that actually this reminded me of was in denarius's story in danny 10 in a dance with dragons where quaithe appears to her in the wilderness and goes remember who you are denarius

the stars whispered in a woman's voice the dragons know to you i love that hey i love that motherfucking passage can i just say that right now is that something i'm allowed to say it's an amazing chapter dude that whole chapter is good so john feeds more wood to the fires and each stick comes alive like a dancer corin says that they will now ride the fire ought to draw them past as they ride john hopes corin has a good plan but also thinks he doesn't want to play Oathbreaker in this plan. They stick close to the cliffs, and they seem to reach a dead end, but they go through the waterfall. Which is cold, by the way. Yeah, it's very cold.

I'm pretty sure I saw something similar in Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon. Unsure. I think I saw it in Mulan. I don't think they did that in Mulan, did they? I don't think so. No. No, they don't. You're the expert.

They really don't. So Ghost enters this cave and he pees. And we get this line. I never paid attention to it much until this reread. The air was full of mist, like the breath of some vast cold

beast. Okay, first thing, Bran and Bloodraven? Mist? Yes. If it's mist, are they there after all? It's not just the eagle. You know, Bran and Bloodraven? Mist? Yes. If it's mist, are they there after all? It's not just the eagle. You know, Brandon Bloodraven are also watching. And also, is this an ice dragon reference? I'm not sure we get

an ice dragon. But maybe it is. Though I'm also gonna say, like, when we say cold beast, because technically a cold beast wouldn't breathe the hot air that would make a mist, right? it's gotta be a slightly warm you don't know that's that's how i mean i guess it's magic fuck science are you an ice dragon scientist now yeah who are you uh don't ruin this for me eliana yes

i love this story that he tells John as he's you know like ready to die Corrin is like when I was no older than you I heard a brother tell how he followed a shadow cat through these falls he unsettled his horse removed her bit and bridle

and ran his fingers through her shaggy mane there's a way through the heart of the mountain come dawn if they have not found us we will press on the first watch is mine brother okay so one question this story is about man yeah i i'm i think so i think you're right because in the next chapter we'll be reading we'll mention this again but we learned mance was injured by a shadow cat beyond the wall they took him to a

wildling village where they knew an old woman who was a healer the woman was actually dead but her daughter attended him until he was strong enough to ride the daughter mends his cloak with some red you know and that's why you get that red and black cloak when you meet mance and when he comes back to the wall they won't let him in because on wednesdays they wear black and on every day anyways he's like fine fuck you and he goes north of the wall and he stays with that woman who is dala we come to find out later on because he knocks her up and they're in love and all that shit and that's his queen quote unquote uh and that's why he gets out of his vows even though he's basically like a traitor i don't know but I wonder also if it's foreshadowing that getting out of your vows

like that's like he's escaping it but hard mode would be like dying to get out like if Mance decides to get out and they aren't actively really killing him John can die and get out I mean he can die I mean and I know you're gonna argue with me

I look forward to it I just don't think that it's necessarily Mance getting out of his vows. Like, I do think that they're trying to execute him if they came across him. They've just, like, kind of failed and sucked. Like, they're trying to find him right now to kill him and stop him. And I think

that's the point for me. Like, Mance broke his vows. And I do think that's part of what's interesting in John's story because it's exploring how sometimes it's easier to keep your vows and sometimes it's easier to break them depending on who you are as a person depending on the different circumstances it's easier to break the vows right it's harder to keep them and that's why he keeps getting tempted for Vance I don't know maybe it was easier to keep his vows and breaking them was the hard choice for him because now he's got to live up here north of the wall try and gather all these wildlings and like i don't

know break the wall seems pretty fucking hard depends for everyone y'all look i'm just saying when you look at mance this is what you see i see a man who didn't like agree with their moral philosophies and codes when i see john i see a guy who agreed with a lot of the moral philosophies and codes but i was talking about man i don't care about who's john so john falls asleep and he thinks about corin's warnings they manifest in his sleep about fires should the wall fall again and he dreams once again but instead the flames manifest into a nightmare

because he dreams of burning castles and dead men rising unquiet from their graves I don't know if I should you know like take a gander at the first half of that dream but is that Winterfell? I think so I would say so since you know at the same half of that dream but is that winter i think so i would say so since you know at the same time winterfell is a light oh you mean right now in the story he's

dreaming of winterfell right now yes i thought you meant like in the future when they have to fight no no no yeah like right now i mean yeah and i mean the dead men rising in quiet from their graves because they've taken apart they've taken away the the swords yeah that's really beautiful thanks george and then john wakes for his watch when corn wakes up he lights some of the tortures that he made during his watch because corninne half hand's a very productive dude and john thinks all right we did it we went through this pass we probably lost the eagle by now but they get outside and nope there it is there's the fucking bird it's still here i know worse because like corinne like knows these places like the back of his hand he's like stay close to the wall we'll lose them by going through this fucking hole in the wall that I know about.

And there's some brambles and you clear them and you duck under and they'll never see you. And then somehow the bird just follows them through all of that. All of it. Throw this out there. Did Corrin really think that he knew the lay of the land more than the people who lived there, though? Probably. Most mediocre white men do. Oh my god.

He wasn't mediocre though he only had like three fingers he's pretty ochre so i will revise that statement and i don't know i mean did he know the lay of the land and would he pretend he did of course he'd pretend he did but also i like imagine emo corin like going out on his own for a raging you know like thinking about all the people he's lost and the shit he's done and i do want to talk about his backstory a little bit later maybe not backstory but just like backstory that never got to happen yeah uh so corin decides this is where we're gonna make our last stand he asks john if his sword is sharp this is not the first time he's asked this during the chapter it's a second time because corn's asking if john's sword is sharp because he's like really hope it is this is gonna make it a lot

easier for me to die both for me and for you and your your feelings i mean like as you said and pointed out earlier he was feeding that fire he was lighting it brighter and brighter not just because he was signaling to everyone hey here's our position even though john was like wow this is a really nice change but no corn was like this is it everyone come get me and in a way that's corn symbolically lighting his own funeral pyre yeah absolutely it's putting himself to rest he says that they'll feed the horses one last time because the horse is important too. Of course, uh, of course,

a horse, of course, John feeds the horse and he pulls his gloves on tighter and he flexes his hand once more thinking I am the shield that guards the realms of men. Corinne tells John, keep your wolf in hand. So John does. The wildlings begin to come over a ridge, and the eagle triumphantly crows

upon a rock. Jon counts fourteen wildlings, and they are in wooden and leathern helms. They are archers, they have spears and mauls. Corrin drew his longsword. The tale of how he had taught himself to fight with his left hand after losing half of his

right was part of his legend. It was said that he handled the blade better now than he ever had before wonder if we'll see this with jamie i hope so or there's just like not a lot of time maybe with like a five-year gap you know no i'm being very serious i know but it's just... So, the leader of the group parts the sea, riding a mount that is more goat than horse. As man and mount grew nearer, John could hear them clattering. Both were armored in bones. Cow bones, sheep bones, the bones of goats and orcs and elk.

The great bones of the hairy mammoths. And human bones as well. Hmm. Lots of bones. no bones about it i have another question right about about the mount that rattle shirt rides is it is it a goat or is it a horse they say here that it's more goat than horse and the wiki says a goat like horse but especially with how well it rides on everything is it i just and the wiki says a goat-like horse but especially with how well it rides on everything is it i just need to know is it a goat or is it a horse is this a new patreon

tier it i'm not actually announcing anything i'm just throwing the idea out there that this we could name it to your goat horse goat-like horse more goat than horse. So, Corrin calls him Rattleshirt, but Rattleshirt corrects him. He prefers Lord of Bones when it comes to the crows. Whatever. Corrin says he sees no lord, only a dog and chicken bones.

Burn. No pun. Because, you know, later. But burn. Yes. Aw, Corrin. It'll be your bones I'll be battling soon, half-hand. I'll burn the flesh off you and make a burning from your ribs. I'll carve your teeth and cast me runes and eat the oaten porridge from your skull. If you want my bones, come get them. And to put a romantic spin on it, like in Brienne and Jamie's chapter, when, you know, if you want her, come get them and to put a romantic spin on it like in brienne and jamie's

chapter when you know if you want her go get her if you want his bones go get them so he did are you shipping rattle shirt and core and half hand look it's anyone's game of thrones i'm gonna throw it out there that because george is so good at characterization again jira mormont would want you to drink out of skull i don't think Corrin Halfhand would want this. They're different people. Different wants. Oh my god. So, believe it or not,

Rattleshirt's helm is a giant skull, and bear claws decorate his body up and down. He has lots of bear claws, so I thought that was interesting, just his armor. He has a giant skull, and he has bear claws up and down he has lots of bear claws so i thought that was interesting just his armor he has a giant skull and he has bear claws up and down him and uh us just like john at this point in the book we think jr mormont's pretty much invisible you know so yeah maybe this is like uh the bones of the old bear absolutely because it's killing a legend it's killing the core and half hand who's been built up in john's story so far yeah and later on jr more one but not by them by his own men

a spear wife tells them that they are overrun there's like 14 of us all right and there's only two of you because she's trying to be really nice too she's like look yeah and by look idiots she we mean she holds up ebbin's a bald egghead and goes look idiots i got your dude damn that kind of sucks though that that's not a funny moment but egg rip crack too soon she does she does at least say that he died brave and then rattle shirt just has to like ruin it and be like he died all the same and once more i pose the question is this a counterpoint her saying that he died brave as opposed to rattleshirt saying he died all the same maybe this is a counterpoint to men's lives have meaning not their deaths maybe sometimes it does matter john has that chosen

prince kind of thing going on where Quentyn's plot is all about learning, hey, I guess I wasn't the chosen one. And we'll talk a little bit about Quentyn and Jon a bit in the outro. Aw, Quentyn. The wildlings try to taunt Jon and Corrin into making a misstep, and then they're like,

this is boring. They're not taking the bait, so they decide, oh, we'll just pierce them all with arrows, and then when they say that, Jon's like, no, I yield. I yield. And then Corrin turns on him real quick. He shames him and says, bastard blood is craven. And then Jon's face reddens and the wildlings say they don't need cravens. And I mean, everyone deserves an Oscar in this moment. Yeah, everyone's playing their roles really well Ygritte comes forth and she really sells it right she goes

he ain't craven and he spared me and Ralchard's like nah like crows are just weird you know like everyone's been trying to tap that Ygritte you shouldn't believe her and so the eagle hovers overhead and apparently Ygritte's like by the way that's one of the wildlings you killed.

And he's living in his eagle now, which is just like normal. Like John's like, that's cool. I had a tree dream last chapter. Oh, worm. John protests. He's like, Mance was supposed to take me. Like, that was a deal. And before Rattleshirt can have John killed, one of the spearwives is like, okay, let's give him a chance to prove himself.

I'll do whatever you ask. The words came hard, but Jon said them. Rattleshirt's bone armor clattered loudly as he laughed. They killed the half-head bastard. As if he could, said Corrin. Turn, Snow, and die. And just, wow. I got you. Wow, this chapter. Okay, snow, and die. And just, wow. I got you. Wow, this chapter.

Okay, this chapter's a great chapter. It's long, it's dense, a lot is happening here. But it's also full of double entendres, just like here. Turn, snow and die, turn is italicized, and Corrin doesn't just mean face me when he says it, because, again, italics.

What he basically means is John, become a turn cloak. Turn, turn, see? Turn sides. And that's the thing, he even says, and die. But he's saying, you die. Like, you disappear. No one knows what happened to John Snow north of the wall until John Snow reveals himself. It's go into hiding,

you know, go into espionage, be a spy from the other side. And the line's super melodramatic. And some other people have pointed out, like Stephen Attawell over at Race for the Iron Throne. This is very Scottish play, right? It's the dramatics of Shakespeare.

It's turn, Snow, and die. And it directly goes into this line and then corin's sword was coming at him and somehow long claw leapt upward to block you can hear the clang of steel on steel you can hear the song in your ears and all it takes is turn snow and die and you just hear yes absolutely and as you were saying i i didn't think about that in terms of what was meant by and die and it ties back to a lesson from maester amen much later in john's story because you pulled that quote earlier of ebon stone snake saying that john's just a boy and corn half hand being like no he's a man of the night's watch now this is also another one of those kill the boy and let the man be born moments by killing the man and letting the man be born

we're back here we're back here it's a loop we closed it never mind john remembers the halfhands words not to bach no matter what is asked of him as corinne then comes for him. Corrin is- Corrin apparently, though, is a beast when it comes to swordplay, obviously, and Jon's out here and he's sweating. And then Ghost has Corrin's calf in his mouth and just as Jon thinks he misses- Then a string of red tears appeared across the big man's throat,

bright as a ruby necklace, and the blood gushed out of him and Corrin half-hand fell. Which is exactly a reference in the theory across the big man's throat bright as a ruby necklace and the blood gushed out of him and corinne half hand fell which is exactly a reference in the theory that is actually canon that corinne is wait what is that also a theory i'm sure it is i just like to be a dumb bitch i just like all the time and i'm not gonna change i mean neither am i that's that's what we are i know i was thinking like the imagery just goes really well right because you have that bright as bright as a ruby necklace a man garbed in black and black armor especially because the house of the undying scene shouldn't have

happened too too long ago and we get that same vision of a man dying and rubies flying from his chest. A man falling to his knees even. With a woman's name on his lips. Well, girls, whatever. I love that Corrin's last words are sharp. Yes. Those are his last words.

He just says sharp, which is of course what he's been echoing through the chapter is your blade sharp, Jod. Yeah you did it good job kid kept the blade sharp this is gonna be good this is gonna be great for me so then john thinks he knew he thought numbly he knew what they would ask of me he thought of samwell tarly then of gren and delores ed of pip and toad back at castle black had he lost them all as he had lost bran and rickon and rob who was he now what was he so this little like passage i think is pretty much what you can expect ned would be

thinking as he rode for starfall after the tower of joy after making those cairns of his men he knew he thought numbly he knew what they would ask of me about arthur dane had he lost them all you know all the men that went with him to the tower had he lost them all as he had lost leah and brandon and his parents who was he now what was he it's the same thought ned would have had after slaying arthur dane and riding for starfall yes absolutely and then as john is pulled to his feet egret tells everyone hey this is john snow bastard winterfell he's chill and ragwild laughs about Corrin being killed by a lordling's bi-blow. And again, we have puns.

This word bi-blow is very interesting. From Merriam-Webster's Dictionary, one of the definitions is an indirect blow. But the second definition is an illegitimate child. And both of these work here. I'm sure Ragwild's feeling really proud of himself right now. I'm proud of him. That's it. Rattleshirt ruins the moment, though.

Ruins the joke. Doesn't get it. He's like, got him. And then Ygritte's like, what the fuck, dude? He just yielded. That was the whole point. It's interesting that Ygritte is the one that's like he yielded like you can't hurt him he yielded especially when she was just shown the same life for life that is actually also in mulan

that one is not the waterfall but they passed like by i don't know someone even says that john slew his brother you know kinslaying you have all of those weird shades of it, right? You have Rob being accused of kinslaying, and he's like, dude, it's been like a long-ass time. And here, because John took those oaths, they're saying that he's a kinslayer there. I don't know. And maybe later on, he's also a kinslayer. I don't know.

No, I think you are onto something there. I think there's a lot of themes in this chapter that may just carry into John's ending. Symptomatic resonance? Especially after the end. Yes, symptomatic resonance, are on to something there. I think there's a lot of themes in this chapter that may just carry into John's ending. Yes, some thematic resonance, especially after the end of the original source material, Game of Thrones from HBO, home box office. Rattleshirt doesn't like that John

is both a warg and a crow. He's like, I'm not about that. You only get to be one. Gotta pick! But everyone's all like, I don't know, if I had to vote someone off the island, it's gonna be you, Rattleshirt, and they all decide Jon can stay. Yeah.

Jon's like, wow, the Free Folk are wild, everyone just voted to let me stay. Wow. Idiots. This is all going way to plan, unfortunately. All according to Kikaku. Some of the wood was still green and it burned slow and smoky sending a black plume up into the bright hard blue of the sky this just

like green and black and smoke it kind of reminds me um especially because vanessa cole also tweeted about the last episode how much she enjoyed the bail the bard story and then she thought it was interesting because the next chapter is where sansa actually gets her moon blood and becomes capable of bearing children that she always felt that the bale the bard story foreshadowed the stark line continuing through sansa but that connection between sansa and john's stories here towards the ends of end of clash with that green wood and again burning smoky stuff and also remembering who you are it kind of just reminds me of the Blackwater

and that wildfire against the night and that is where Sansa is right now she is figuring out who she is and what she wants and what to choose and what to do she has a lot of choice just like Jon does here wow

Rattleshirt takes some bones and then the others throw dice for the what to choose and what to do. She has a lot of choice, just like Jon does here. Wow. Rattleshirt takes some bones, and then the others throw dice for the ranger's gear. Ygritte wins Corrin's cloak. Yes, and I thought that was just interesting that that was the language that they used because, I mean, Corrin lays down his life, right?

He knew what the cost was, and he laid it down so that Jon could live for that greater good, I guess. Self-sacrifice, which is definitely a thing that the story is exploring in the Bible. And this is actually in all four of the Gospels, which I think is quite remarkable. There are things that might be in like two of the Gospels, sometimes three, but sometimes it's in all four of them. But this appears in all four of them. I'm only going to read the one from John, the Gospel of John, because I think that's funny for me personally. And it also has the most detail about the cloak. All right. Then the soldiers, when they had crucified Jesus, took his garments and made

four parts to every soldier apart, and also his coat. Now the coat was without seam, woven from the top throughout. They said, Therefore among themselves let us not rend it, but cast lots for it. Whose it shall be that the scripture might be fulfilled, where saith, They parted my raiment among them, and for my vesture they did cast lots. These things, therefore, the soldiers did. these things therefore the soldiers did so it's just another one of those religious references that ties into the larger thematics egret got the cloak though which that leads a whole entire other symbolism of marriage obviously which we will get into eventually in a storm of swords his sacrifice is definitely what moves the story forward right without corin's death

Sacrifice is definitely what moves the story forward, right? Without Corrin's death, Jon's story in A Storm of Swords would not exist. Jon would not join the Wildlings. Jon would probably die out in the cold. He'd probably just, like, be chewing some shadow cat meat, and then he'd, like, pass out. And he'd be like, I'm so warm, ghost. And then he'd just die in the cold. Oh my god.

So Jon is dreading taking the Skirling Pass once more. But Ygritte's like we can't go back right now like we're not going that way we're in the milk water mance is busy marching up your wall and there's this line the look she gave him was sad when he asks about the skirling pass and to me that is egret's if we look back we are lost john moment like don't you understand what's behind us? The ice zombies are behind us. We can't go back now. We've left everything. We've left our belongings. We've left people that we lost.

We've left our homes. It's over. Yeah. This is a pilgrimage. And he doesn't get it yet. Somehow. Somehow no one's pieced together that that's what they're trying to do. Which I don't... It is so stupid because they're so close-minded because it's like you guys have literally seen them you've seen the others you've seen what they've done you see what they become what people become when they die ranging uh they literally came south to come home to you guys

and you're like oh wow we gotta kill these mrefvers i don't i don't know yeah you didn't think this through we do get this line in john 8 that i feel like we need to just call out especially with the end of game of thrones our honor means no more than our lives so long as the realm is safe this represents so much the shields that guard the realms of men as john keeps thinking to himself like he has to protect them and also is this is this foreshadowing is this points at butterfly foreshadowing in the future for something that may happen that our honor means no more than our lives so long as the realm is safe look at ned look at what ned died for his honor meant no more than his life as long as the realm was safe for them keeping the realm safe is honor

yeah i did really love this line and it's a little different and john in the show only agrees to being king in the north because he believes that it will be their best bet at keeping everyone safe safe at keeping the realm safe and he has that line he's like being your king was the honor of my life or something like that i actually really liked that line oh oh as it is though it is the honor of his life like it's look at where he started look at john like that's not what he thought he would have ever and it's nothing he wanted it's everything he pushed away and said no i can't have that i'm just a bastard but then in the end he got to have it even just for a little while but that taste of leadership

sucks turn to ashes in his mouth yeah or in front of him or blood in his porridge who knows or blood in front of him wow wow of course even though this is the last john chapter in a clash of kings we wanted to do a quick lightning round of what we missed for the end of clash of kings which while our lightning round was very very heavy in the beginning this is a one chapter lightning round. Eliana, can you lead us in? Yeah, it's Bran's seven. The stone is strong, Bran told himself. The roots of the trees go deep, and under the ground the kings of winter sit their thrones. So long as those remained, Winterfell remained. It was not dead, just broken. Like me, he thought. I'm not dead either. broken like me he thought i'm not dead either yeah buddy what a great quote to encompass the last bit of the book right of a clash of kings of the the calm before the storm of swords wow well done on it you are on it wow uh yeah i i think that is a quote that encompasses the whole book. That, you know, after we lose our protagonist, after we lose Honorable Ned, it's not dead, it's just broken.

Aww. It's a hopeful note. It keeps you reading, it keeps you hanging on. And I think it really shows the end of A Clash of Kings a lot. Our heroes are all kind of broken. Jon is not impartial to that john is definitely gonna need some recovery emotionally because he just murdered corinne halfhand yeah very this is the snape v dumbledore moment right this is it he couldn't

even kill a strange girl that he had never met and now he had to just kill the guy who has kept him alive all of these past few days who was his one of his heroes you've raised him like a animal for slaughter just like i'm telling you snape v dumbledore same there's that there's also within the sith but like in a twisted other kind of kind of good, hopeful way? Wait, in other way? Wow! Is Palpatine the Night King? No, that's right, he was Darth Maul, right? It's the same thing, right?

Darth Maul and the Ice King? I don't know, they're all the same. The Ice King. Elsa from Frozen and Darth Maul had a baby. Ice King, Adventure Time. Oh my god, Elsa is the Night Queen. Wow. We got real far but let's talk about john's a clash of kings arc to take us out of here so this quote comes from

the idols of the king alfred lord tennyson uh the coming of arthur sir there be many rumors on this head for the for there be those who hate him in their hearts. Call him base born and since his ways are sweet and their sarbestial hold him less than man. And there be those who deem him more than man and dreamt he dropped from heaven. I thought that was a really nice quote. quote kind of just thinking on john's plot and all the arthurian themes in the story and the romanticism of it all and also the uh tragedy of it all and who he is as a character it's a great quote thanks i found it thanks i made this i birthed lord alfred tennyson thanks i birthed it yes i am lord tennyson thank you. I know I'm so old.

Sacrifice. That is the central theme, right? That is this chapter. That is this old man going out in winter, giving up his life because only death can pay for life. Damn. Their honor guarding the realms of men.

Yeah, wow. Also that. Shit. The Honor guard of the realm that's like a good name the honor guard of the realm I love that especially because you do get like an honor guard escorting princess Elia Martel or you know yada yada or escorting Aemon up to the wall

yeah yes we talked about Arthur Dane a little bit last episode and some of the parallels between Corrin and Arthur and why people have the tinfoil talked about Arthur Dane a little bit last episode and some of the parallels between Corrin and Arthur and why people have the tinfoil theories about Arthur being Corrin, whatever, vice versa, and why they're not real. However, why they hold any precedence online when you read a theory. And I wanted to have a few passages read here of different characters that sacrificed for John's plot because john is very much so

a child that was born out of sacrifice born out of that unconditional love born out of that dream that the future could be better right that dream to save the world uh john is a prophecy baby if you're listening to our podcast we subscribe to the very canonical theory because we are always going canon of r plus L equals J. If you don't believe in it, it's fine. You're wrong. And I don't know why you're still here. I still respect you, but you're here. It's your time.

Yeah, it's your life. Do what you want. Do what you want. So, regarding Arthur Dayne. And these were no shadows. Their faces burned clear, now sir arthur dane the sword of the morning had a sad smile on his lips uttered 10 a game of thrones as we discussed last episode arthur dane and ned and as we discussed this episode that

ned likely walked away feeling the same way as john felt about killing corin halfhand right that corin knew the whole time this would happen and arthur probably knew he would have to face ned stark i don't think either man in any of these scenarios ever thought they would have to kill the other or fight the other and i think that arthur dane had the same feeling as Corrin did that they put their lives on the line for this, right? They already knew what this job encompassed. They knew the job description. They knew this could come someday. And even in this chapter, Corrin was ready to go.

He was like, I'm lighting a huge fire. Let him come down on me. Let him kill me. This is it. This is my grandstanding. Yeah, absolutely. on me let him kill me this is it this is my grandstanding yeah absolutely he's like this is the mission and we will all die just so that one of us can live and hopefully give the rest of the night's watch a fighting chance he was pinning all of his hopes on john and that was what it

meant i guess for him to sacrifice he wasn't asking for anything in return hey eliana what is one bastard boy wow boom got it we have brought it full circle more than once tonight john is that bastard boy yeah stanis asking that question is ridiculous because we know what one bastard boy is against all these lives it's everything it is the shield that guards the realms of men yes so another person who gave their life for john to have you know his own uh only death can pay for life and leona stark is obviously that person and you even get it in the very first chapter of the book non-believers so listen up sinners promise me ned the fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper but when he gave her his word the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes ned remembered the way she had smiled then how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she

gave up her hold on life the rose petals spilling from her palm dead and black after that he remembered nothing eddard won the game of thrones if anyone sacrificed of course it was liana i'm sure she knew it was going to happen near the end she was alone oh god do you think about how alone liana stark was in that tower? Until Ned showed up? There had to have been someone else there. I couldn't think of who or what she would look like. They don't say, but, like, the language when- If only somebody was having a kid

around the same time. Huh. Are you talking about Ray- Rayella? No, no, no. That's actually eight to nine months apart, as George just said, in the So Speak Martin. Thanks, Lillian. No, I was talking about Gianna Reed. Thanks.

Oh, wow. Gianna Reed. Because, you know, Mira Reed was literally born around the same time as John. Just putting that out there. The transgression of all of these people that sacrificed their lives and not to go full youth, adult, like young adult fiction on it or fantasy on it. But you think about what harry potter in the forbidden forest you know holding the stone of resurrection with all of these dead people are surrounding him saying you've been so brave like it's us all the people that died to get

you to this moment to defeat the dark lord and that's pretty much what you feel for john right like that's his normal that's the trope that's the fantasy trope he's the chosen one he's the boy who lived that's Jon Snow but we see how this chapter especially is part of that first step of killing the boy and letting the man be born as you reference with Aemon's passage later

on and he goes on in his chapters in A Dance with Dragons, Adabada respectively to think on Corrin, Corrin affects he goes on in his chapters in A Dance with Dragons, Adabuda, respectively, to think on Corrin. Corrin affects him. The world dissolved into a red mist. Jon stabbed and slashed and cut. He

hacked down Donnelnoy and gutted Deathdick Follard. Corrin Halfhand stumbled to his knees, trying in vain to staunch the flow of blood from his neck. I am the Lord of winterfell john screamed john 12 a dance with dragons a double you can see all the guilt that john is feeling and we'll talk about this a little later but john has a lot of mixed feelings he doesn't really

actually dwell on the guilt that he feels of all these people dying around him and for him to survive. It affects him, but he doesn't think of it that often, unlike Quentin, Quentin Martell, who feels like he has to keep going in his story in Delwada, that he has to win Daenerys over or at least get a dragon because he's like, why did my best friend die why did my maester die why did like the guy was like my brother you know why did they all die if not to get me here and i can't go back empty-handed and i can't disappoint my dad and all of these people and while john won't allow himself to dwell on that stuff he shows it in other ways right like in a dance with dragons he thinks you know sam he sent sam away from the wall, away from him.

He sent all these people away. He thinks, where's Ed? Where's Donald? Where's Sam? Where are all these people? They were the best. Where's, he thinks on how like, you know, there are no men worth what Sam Tarly is.

There's no men worth Corrin Halfhand here on this wall. But this is what I have to work with. Yeah, maybe if he had kept Sam around. It was a choice. There's no men worth Corrin half-hand here on this wall, but this is what I have to work with. Yeah, maybe if he had kept Sam around. It was a choice. Wow, Ned Jr. It does remind me a lot, you know, when he has that horrible dream when he screams, I'm the Lord of Winterfell, and all this confusion over these vows.

So many vows. They make you swear and swear. And John is an exact product of this boy prodigy that joins, you know, a systemic penal colony, basically, and throws his life at it. Yes, and yeah, he had to swear and swear. And there was a cost each time that he took a vow and swore. It was always a choice, as is reflected in Jamie's storyline. And yes, speaking of Quentin, like, A Clash of Kings is Jon's adventure stink, right? It begins with him crossing the wall, that threshold into the other world if you want to use hero's journey terminology. And as he enters another one, he's also moving from one social space of the Brothers of the

Night's Watch into another one, the world of the wildlings and that's where clash ends and like if a game of thrones centered around john forging connections and friendships with his brothers a clash of kings was his transition into what is the meaning what is the cost and the price of being part of this brotherhood a storm of swords is gonna like be an introduction into yet another group that leads to him becoming a stranger to the people who were his brothers, his second family, in the first book. And if we take some things from the show about John's journey to be truth, this seems like part one of wrestling with your old groups and families,

Ruth, this seems like part one of wrestling with your old groups and families, with Jon having to do this again later on in the story in, I don't know, Tiwau or Eidos, as he wrestles with learning that he's a Targaryen and understanding where his loyalties lie when it comes to

them, or with his other family, the Starks, as he finds himself in a new relationship slash position to them at the end of A Storm of Swords as the Lord Commander. And like with Quentyn, Jon ends up seeing the brothers that he went into the Skrulling Pass with die around him, leaving him, again, alone, alone in a group of strangers now amongst the wildlings. But unlike Quentin, who actually didn't really have anyone to guide him through Essos and all of its unknowns, because they kind of all died before they could do that.

Yeah, Jon has Obi-Wan Kenobi. I mean, Korin Halfhand. Yeah, he has Korin Halfhand. And like, Korin Halfhand was great at introducing him into this world and taking him deeper into it, right? He's a transition from the men of the Night's Watch, people like Thor and Smallwood, who are like, we hate those wildlings. And Corrin somehow, who has actually had to face the wildlings constantly and fight them all the time, is the one who's telling Jon, like, they're actually not really different from us, by the way. They're just humans yeah but we have to kill them anyway because of the wall in our honor and John's like what and then he instead of killing wildlings ends up having to kill his brother Corrin Halfhand so

I mean yeah they're really not that different right Corrin I don'tin yeah and it's just like they said all men die yeah is it fair for corin to really choose you know this is your path john i need you to do this like was this corin just delegating his tasks as a man of the night's watch was this him going rogue or was this him being completely unfair to Jon for just choosing his path? At the same time, Jon really didn't have a huge chance of survival. Just saying.

Yeah, he has a wild-ass dire wolf who's huge and wonderful and fluffy and a good boy, but that obviously helped him against Corrin. Right, but as Corrin tells Jon at the beginning of the chapter, he's like, what ends up happening to you from here on out actually might be a lot harder than death. I can't imagine that kinslaying could be easier, huh?

Wow. The first time or the second? Nor. Nor the second. Nope. Maybe third. Maybe it feels odd. Wow. No, we don't know. I'm just kidding. Wow. I was recently rereading Stephen

Attawell's John VIII Clash of Kings analysis over at Race for the Iron Throne, and he actually had this little segment where he talks about Corrin, and he says that his first name and his Battleborn nickname suggest he was ironborn, and his skill with the sword suggests he was born into a martial castle on the islands. Beyond these mere scraps, we know nothing about Corrin beyond his duty.

And sure enough, in the World of Ice and Fire, during kind of Aegon's conquest, we learn about someone named Corrin Valmark. He was a minor lord in House Harlaw. He was the first man to claim the kingship after Aegon began conquesting. And of course, Aegon and his sisters kind of like went, eh, we don't care about the Iron Islands. Like, let them be them. They'll figure it out.

Corrin's grandmother had been a younger sister of Harwin Hardhand. Interestingly enough. And on the basis of that tie, Volmark declared himself the rightful heir of the black line which was at the time the uh line of the people on the the salt throne interesting are you not gonna respond to the salt throne what what am i supposed to see stone chair

oh oh my god but yes so i thought that the black line and the corinne volmark and the harwin hard hand that whole passage is screaming george going oh this is what i was thinking about corinne's backstory one time but then i'm just gonna put it in another story because i don't have time yes and i mean maybe maybe there was a woman there, right? Maybe he had a salt wife that he loved. I hope he did have a salt wife, salt wife. Maybe not salt, I don't know. I hope that Corin Bullmark was very respectful. It's also funny, like, we hear the story of how he lost his fingers,

but if he comes from the Iron Islands, apparently this was just a safety risk of growing up there anyway. You know might be like out right like what uragon right i don't know but everyone they just decide to play these stupid drinking games their drinking games are very risky where they throw axes at each other and like this was apparently just a normal everyday risk being an ironborn uragon and aaron uh they played the finger dance together. It's called the finger dance and Aaron threw an axe that shaved off part of his hand and they tried to sew his fingers back on instead of

treating the amputation because the ironborn are brilliant. Uragon's hand became infected and they amputated his whole arm but it was too late and then he died at age 14 and that was Uragon Greyjoy, Yuri Greyjoy Lady Sunderly and lord quellen's son uh i love that this chapter gave us these last hero vibes i feel like we're going to talk

about that a lot in the chapters to come in a storm of swords and then a dubada a dance of dragons yeah trying to bring that back it's been a few episodes you know but i think that's a wrap for today we covered a lot i feel like we're ready to move on to a storm of swords. Are you ready to move on to a storm of swords, Eliana? Oh my god, I've been ready. I've been so ready. I mean, like, I loved these class chapters. They were amazing, but like...

It's time. I mean, Jon probably doesn't think that it's time. He's like, what the fuck just happened? But all of us, we're like, it's time. You know, but we do because we want him to go home and then we want him to kill the man wait he just killed the man he just killed the man we want him to stop killing the man and we want him to go back to the night's watch and i want him to kill the boy oh hopefully not um amen steel song yeah god i'm worried for that boy i worry about him all the time i wake up and i pray to the seven

i pray to the old gods i pray i know no because we're lords give me like yeah give me give me yeah you're right you're right i'm like no we pray to the great other oh my god so you guys thank you for listening next week we are starting a storm of swords with john so specifically as you know how we roll that means we are reading only john is storm of swords with john so specifically as you know how we roll that means we are reading only john is storm of swords and there is a lot to read we have a great romance ahead of us so i'm excited for that i'm gonna be very gooey about that yeah it's oh man we're gonna feel so many feelings in a moment we're gonna hold each other i'm excited we were having our last laughs here for some reason

laughing about Corrin half hand dying this is how we deal with grief you can find us on the internet you can subscribe to us at many places at the podcasts of many places so you can find us on iTunes, on Spotify

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table girl and i am one of your other hosts chloe lies in arbor and lies in arbor gold signing off that was weird we should never do that all right goodbye