Girls Gone Canon Cast - ASOIAF Episode 57 - ASOS Jon I/Intro

Episode Date: July 5, 2019

 The Dornishman's wife was as fair as the sun, and her kisses were warmer than spring. But the Dornishman's blade was made of black steel, and its kiss was a terrible thing.   -------  Eliana's twitter: https://twitter.com/arhythmetric Eliana's reddit account: https://www.reddit.com/user/glass_table_girl Eliana's blog: https://themanyfacedblog.wordpress.com/ Chloe's twitter: https://twitter.com/liesandarbor Chloe's blog: www.liesandarborgold.com  

Hello and welcome to Girls Gone Canon, Episode 57, John 1, In a Storm of Swords. I am one of your hosts, Chloe. You might know me from the internet as Liza Narber on Twitter, Tumblr, and LizaNarberGold.com. And I'm another one of your hosts, Eliana, and you might know me as Glastablegirl from Reddit or on the Maester Monthly Podcast. Maybe you know me as Arithmetric over on Twitter. Thank you everyone for joining us. John 1, we have hit a storm

of swords. We haven't been here since Sansa. So now we are back out of black, almost. Uh, and black and red? Or his faded grays. Yeah, soon, very soon. We will be in those and we will get to that.

But first, we did get a great email from our friend Eve. Eve wrote, Eliana, have you read the Priory of the Orange Tree? Because there's this line, Malawagu aid Valor. You can't take that horse. The horse, said Aid, goes where i go i think you both would enjoy it but i thought eliana would especially enjoy there being a horse named valor

who is a very good boy yes i have not read the priori of the orange tree but i do appreciate that aid stands up for his horse it's like yeah i'm sorry the horse comes with me whatever yeah is aid is aid a skin changer oh my god is he no one knows no one knows i don't know i don't know but thank you very much eve for sending this email yeah and i think we're just gonna jump into it this week we have a lot to get through a and I think we're just going to jump into it this week. We have a lot to get through, a lot to cover. We're only covering Jon 1, but we are also going to talk about just the introduction to Jon's arc in A Storm of Swords, what we're going to see, some of the thematics. And I mean, the very first thing we're seeing is that the Starks all are getting lost on their journey. We see it with all all of them in this book we see it in prior

books from ned to catalan even to sansa to brand aria to john to liana to rickon to brandon i don't know all of them pretty much all of them uh john is the newest to join that he is lost on his journey he's alone in the great north he is and part of john's journey and what leads him astray or tempts him to go astray is of course egret yes egret teaches him many lessons which are i think a very important part of his journey and learning about truth and growing up yeah she teaches him a lot about what freedom means to her and john kind of learns from that and decides what freedom means to him and it really is very coming of age a lot about that entering of manhood john is deciding what kind of man he wants to be and along the way he's

trying to emulate ned while he swears all these vows and promises others all these things. But of course, that's what Ned was actually doing his whole life, coincidentally. Very underground. No, Jon didn't know that. But I mean, Ned was only 18 when Lyanna died. And he started going into war when he was 17, 16. I mean, he's older than Jon was, but that's still very heavy, especially after Lyanna dies. Yeah, and Jon and Ned are perhaps of age when they both lose their father figures, right?

And I mean, yeah, Ned is Jon's father, effectively. So there's that. And of course, there's a lot of other ways in which Jon emulates Ned, right? Like you were talking about how this is what Ned was trying to do his whole life, and Jon's hiding a secret in his heart throughout a majority of A Storm of Swords about where his true loyalties are,

and he's betraying the Free Folk in his heart, while at the same time also betraying the night's watch it's really hard to feel two things at once that's what being a teenager is about that's what uh the twitter why a young adult novel taught me and ned also lived his life hiding his own secrets about his sister and his son nephew and being on one hand treasonous to john's claim right but at the same time in saving John treasonous to his best friend yeah you know there's a lot of parallels that we can grab from the other Starks who are at similar points in their story right hiding and pretending to be other people

of course yeah you have like Arya who's pretending to be I don't know like a bazillion different people Bran and Rickon pretending to be dead Sansa pretending to be loyal to Joffrey still. And then, of course, Robb. I think you see the parallels between Robb and Jon, or not really parallels, but the similarities in their story and how different parts of their upbringing manifest in these two different people, right? They've had the same teachers, but because of their stations, things were a little different. In Storm, both John and Rob sleep with women that they shouldn't. And I mean, it's unconfirmed if Rob loves Jane or not in the books. But I mean, it's definitely out of honor. Maybe that was a kind of love to in its own way, even if it's not necessarily romantic. And both make different choices about their

versions of honor, neither of which is necessarily wrong. And both of which end up having these devastating consequences. Like, for example, Rob's honor compels him to wed Jane. And as a result of the unfair play of other people, Rob ends up dying. Because remember, Jane survives him in the books. John differs because he ends up being the betrayer, right? After eating of the meat and mead of Mance Rayder and of the Free Folk. But it isn't just honor so much as it's a heavy burden of guilt

that Rob and John were left with from their dad. Catelyn can't have been much better at helping Rob process any of this. Rob, like John, can't father a bastard. That's the one thing that they cannot do. It might not have been a verbal telling, but the shame was so deeply embedded from all the different times they had been iced out and seen Catelyn and Ned fighting,

the harsh way Ned treated her when she was begging for answers, the arguments and fights, and it was a stigma in the household. And John, being a bastard has kind of the biggest burden of it all he finds himself in a different position than rob all of the blame has always been piled on him it's always been his fault and it complicates things with the free folk and with egret and in honoring corin's request and the vows that

john swore i think there's something really poignant in that Rob, part of Rob's choice of feeling like he can't father a bastard is because he saw not only how it affected Kat and Ned's relationship, but how much it hurt the brother that he loves so much, John. He doesn't want to inflict that upon someone else, so in a way

Rob marries Jane, yeah, I guess for love, but for love of John, not Jane. Not like that. As much as we talk about incest. Much like Catelyn and Brandon were supposed to wed and Ned marries Catelyn out of love and for his parents, for Rickard and for Brandon. Something like that. And maintaining that honor in the vows that were sworn.

and maintaining that honor in the vows that were sworn and i mean in in a way john's honor also compels him in his choices but in a different direction it's what compels him to actually as opposed to wed egret it's what compels him to leave egret and because of the unfair systems unlike where rob dies for his choices in this one it, it's Ygritte who pays and dies. Yeah, that betrayal of Jon's honor is kind of what indirectly causes Ygritte to die. And at the same time, it's not just Ygritte dying indirectly as a result of that. It's also that Ygritte dies because she chooses freedom, and this is what her freedom actually tastes like in the end. Jon's A Storm of Swords story comes back around to the end of john's a game of thrones story where again he has the choice of leaving the knight's watch but this time he deserts

freedom if that's somehow possible and then chooses the watch twice over he's all offered winterfell finally here and then he's like nah i'm gonna stay here but in a way the choice is kind of made for him that's kind of john's whole thing right we have that reluctant ruler uh look and we also have the look at what happened when he played the politician and what that actually causes in the end whenever he plays politician and it's curious to me because it's a lot like what we see with ned ned playing politics doesn't come out well for him and he knows it doesn't and you look at what cregan start going south he goes south he does his duty he gets the job done and he leaves uh and i think that we're seeing a lot of that thing going on where

they just don't it's not their thing they're not there to play you know the fancy scheming lord they're there to get crap done and be done with it yeah even if I guess what everyone decides should be done is them

a refresh on John 7 and a Clash of Kings which we just read a little bit ago uh talking a little bit about changeling children there's a passage that we talk about there's a passage from john seven they were friends as well as brothers john realized and now they are sworn foes why did he does that for a wench some say for crown, others would have it. Corrin tested the edge of his sword with the ball of his thumb. He liked women, man stood. And he was not a man whose knees bent easily, that's true. But it was more than that.

He loved the wild better than the wall. It was in his blood. He was wildly bored, taken as a child. When some raiders were put to the sword. When he left the Shadow Tower, he was only going home again. I thought there was something interesting in this, that he grew up in the Shadow Tower

and he was very much so, as a king now, he was almost like a prince in a tower. Much like Jon in the Tower of Joy. You know, and he came from forbidden love, and his story is very musical. He's always playing music, surrounded by music and harps.

Very Bail the Bard, as we talked about as well in the last episode. And I'm sure we will continue to talk about it today. But a changeling child, a taken child, they both share that similarity. And I think it helps add to why Mance accepts him later on with a little bit of light manipulation from John. They're both kind of like Rapunzel. It's weird. Yet those parallels

between their towers and being princes and kings I think that's really interesting because both Mance and John end up showing kings could be hiding under the snow, Ned. Snow, Ned! Snow! the snow ned snow ned snow me speaking of storms and swords yeah and uh storm lords here's a lightning round prologue chet and his sworn brothers plan a mutiny but the blast of three horns dashes those plans my god what a good prologue. Fuck. Jaime I. Brienne of Tarth and Cleo's fray are charged with seeing Jaime to the capital. They run into Robin Riger on the way. Catelyn I. Confined to her father's chambers after releasing the Kingslayer, she must watch her father suffer before his death. Later, she argues with Edmure on his return about freeing Jaime. Arya won, although they stole a map. Arya's escape team seems to have lost their way along the Red Fork.

She dreams through the eyes of Nymeria, who falls on the bloody mummers in the woods. Tyrion won. Tyrion wakes to a Tywin Lannister-run King's Landing. He visits his father, who's waging war with Quills, and argues for his birthright, Casterly Rock. Davos I. Blackwater Bay takes four of his sons in its aftermath, but the seven have use for him yet, as Solidor San's ships retrieve him from the shores. Sansa I. Sansa is invited to a garden party hosted by the Tyrells, who have other motivations for inviting the girl who was once

betrothed to the current crowned stag. Stags. And so that brings us to Jon won a storm of swords. After turning his cloak, Jon is brought before Mance Rayder to plead his case in joining the Free Folk. The King Beyond the Wall

reveals he's seen Winterfell's bastard twice before and then he tells us why he abandoned his vows. Jon opens and closes his hand, looking across the milk water. The wildlings and Jon begin to quietly descend.

The eagle soars ahead. Rattleshirt rattles. The clopping of hooves are heard. Very rhythmic. No real song, but rhythm. Six days ago, the hounds in the group tried to fight Ghost, but Ghost held his own and he scared them off. I thought this was kind of a fun nod.

We get this a couple of times throughout this chapter because if you'll remember, there are some of those backstory notes from uh joanna robinson of vanity fair about the sort of foreshadowing that george had actually originally wanted to write into the game of thrones episode about the purple wedding of how eventually we were gonna have a fight between some wolves and some dogs it reminds me of uh aria chapters and storm you know that uh the cold rain lashed them both and washed away her shouts and all that aria could think of was the question he had asked her

do you know what dogs do to wolves die yeah mostly pretty much that seems to be what george thinks the wolves will come again is what i hear so. Yeah, that's what I hear, too. Jon Snow's garin wickered softly, but a touch and a soft word soon quieted the animal. Would that his own fears would be calmed so easily. He was all in black, the black

of the Night's Watch, but the enemy rode before and behind. Wildlings, and I am with them. I just feel like I would feel so out of place if i were john in this outfit that is all black against the wilderness that is very white with snow i mean he very much stands out but i mean like that's a that was his fashion statement as a teenager you know yeah yeah he uh we start to meet the free folk crew they have divided the spoils from corinne halfhand's corpse raided his corpse egret got his cloak ragwile his gloves a bowman got his boots and long spear reich initially got his helm but it didn't fit, so Ygritte actually got it back. Rattleshirt took his bones, and the

bloody head of Ebon was also in his bag. Jon has this line I really love, Dead. All dead but me. And I am dead to the world. So, this reminds me of that one So Spake Martin that George got asked if Sandor and Sansa

would meet again, and he said, why, the Hound is dead, and Sansa may be dead as well. There's only a Lain Stone. And this reminds me of what's kind of going on with all these characters, right? Like, Arya's dead. There's a fake Arya in Winterfell. Bran and Rickon are thought to be dead, except obviously to Sam, who meets them briefly. But Bran and Rickon burned.

At the end of Dance, many think think Danny might even be dead and Egan the sixth I guess soon of his name I've heard rumors of he's probably still dead but there's a boy claiming to be him kind of fits in with that war of the roses stuff we talked about and John is dead

to the world for a minute or maybe you know a little bit he's just dead dead and we don't know maybe he's dead forever uh george actually said in interviews too he's like i don't know what you're talking about john he's dead i see you george i mean death should change a person right directed by rattleshirt egret and longspeReich are guarding Jon, and he watches the dynamic between them. He's furious-sounded, because they all talk back to Rattleshirt,

and they're not afraid of him, even though Rattleshirt is their boss. But no one's getting fired. Rattleshirt doesn't buy Jon's desertion, though. The wildling leader fixed him with an unfriendly stare. Might be you fooled these others, Crow, but don't think you'll be fooling Mance. He'll take one look at you and know

you're false, and when he does, I'll make a cloak of your wolf there and open your soft boy's belly and sew a weasel up inside. John's sword hand opened and closed, flexing the burned fingers beneath the glove, but Longspear Reich only laughed and where

would you find a weasel in the snow so that reminds me of a couple things it reminds me of tickler the whole like open your soft boy's belly and sew a weasel up inside that reminds me of the tickler in the harrod hall stuff uh and i think that's somewhat relevant right to the time span of where we're reading this chapter. So I could see George kind of like referencing himself there. But it also reminds me of Arya, right? Arya has Weasel, like the child that's hanging around with her that she starts talking to.

And there's that whole line from A Game of Thrones. You had best run back to your room, little sister. Septim ordain will surely be lurking. The longer you hide, the sterner the penance. You'll be sewing all through the winter. When the spring thaw comes, they will find your body with a needle still locked tight with frozen fingers. It reminds me a lot of just Arya with Weasel in the Snow. Yes, I do see that.

I've alternate take on this line. I know that some people think it means Arya dies. I kind of see it as like if Needle is Jon Snow's smile in the Stark family, it's her remembering her Stark identity. Same as Jon does, it seems, probably. And Arya obviously has to be

a big reminder to him of what that is. Of course. I just want to say I hope Weasel's alive. Don't worry about that girl they camp out their first night making a fire warm them and egret sidles up next to john and tells him mance will take you since you killed corin and when i'm free he said slowly will i be free to go sure you will she had a warm smile despite her crooked teeth. And we'll be free to kill you. It's dangerous being free.

But most come to like the taste of it. She put her gloved hand on his leg just above the knee. You'll see. Wow. Damn, she coming out strong. Strong. He's like She's very, that's very strong. I will, thought John. I will see and hear

and learn. And when I have, I will carry thought Jon. I will see and hear and learn. And when I have, I will carry the word back to the wall. The wildlings had taken him for an oath breaker, but in his heart, he was still a man of the Night's Watch, doing the last duty that Corrin Halfhand had laid on him. Before I killed him. Jon doesn't realize Ygritte's coming on to him? Of course he doesn't! He knows nothing!

That's like the whole start of it, this is it that's true it's interesting that egret basically tells him freedom has a price john snow it reminds me of i'm making emmet watch silicon valley with me right now because he's never seen it and there's an episode where a girl basically straight up and a guy are arguing about this tech company and And he's like, you sold me on this big idea. Like you're the one that told me I should do it. It'd be great. And she's like, well,

of course I lied to you a little bit, but you're still like, you still got this thing, this amazing, beautiful, big thing. And that's what Egert's basically telling him. Like,

yeah, well, you know, I might've, you know, lied to you a little bit, but you're still going to be free. You're more free than you'd be anywhere else. Jon Snow. But i think part of what she's saying is that this freedom comes with a

responsibility right it's very existential like you get to define what your life is but now you have to be responsible and for it absolutely and to be fair she does learn that like freedom comes with a price for herself later on obviously when she meets her end it's not free like free is not there's no free and freedom i mean she was free to try and i guess break through the walls but she wasn't truly free she was trapped on one side of the wall and then at the same time i guess that means the rest of the night's watch right we're free to try and kill her i'm sad sad. I don't even want to deal with her dying. This isn't the first time I'm gonna be

sad this episode. Never mind. Let's just talk about Rattleshirt. Fuck this guy. He leads them across the stream and they come upon eight of Mance's outriders, including the Weeper, who has a dumb name, but he's terrifying. He really is. He cuts their eyes

out or something like that. He's a fleshy blonde man with watery eyes who bore a great curved scythe of sharpened steel. And they tell the weeper that John is a crow that came over after killing Corrin. And Rattleshirt also reminds them that, hey,

he also killed Oral. So, watch out. So, watch out. So, the Weeper says to him that, oh, Mance may keep you. You have a wolfish cast to you. I thought that was very interesting, especially because so many people have recognized that he has this dark look. The dogs all try to fight Ghost again. Ghost is all like, woof woof.

And Longspear's like, wow, they don'tf woof and long spear's like wow they don't really like ghosts and he's like they're dogs and he's a wolf said john they know he's not that kind no more than i am yours he thought uh major major a emo hours b real abandonment hours and C. Loaned by them animals dot mp3 hours Several hours Hours of the wolf You said you wanted George to tell you the hours I could tell you the hours

Just saying And again John finds himself feeling like he doesn't belong because A. That's how John feels all the time. And B, that is also what adolescence is like. True. He didn't belong with the Starks, he felt.

And he probably isn't going to feel like he belongs being a Targaryen. Yeah. Where does he belong? We're kind of reminded here of Jon's mission from Corrin. Find out what the wildlings are doing and what they're looking for. It's a kazoo and then they enter the free folk camp and a spearwife is now carving arrows. And Jon thinks, arrows for my brothers, Jon thought. Arrows for my father's folk, for the people of Winterfell and Deepwood Mott, and the last hearth,

arrows for the north. Lots of good groundwork being laid here, because when John thinks of his family and his people, his brothers being threatened, what does he do? Well, is this a rhetorical question? Yes. Okay.

But. What does he do? You're thinking, right, of what I'm thinking. I think, but I'm not sure. I'm referencing the bad show. He would do what was right, no matter what. Oh. Aw.

Bummer. Fuck. Rattleshirt declares that they're taking him to meet Mance, and then they're gonna gut him after. Real charming, this Rattleshirt guy. But not everything is warlike in the wildling camp. There's also women dancing and sheep bleeding and babies crying and tens

and tens of people, like everything that you would expect to see in a whole society, right? And he walks along the camp marveling at the number of free folk, but noting that they actually have no defenses besides patrol. If his brothers were to catch them in such disarray, many of them would pay for that freedom with their life's blood.

They had numbers, but the Night's Watch had discipline, and in battle, discipline beats numbers nine times out of every ten his father had once told him. Ugh. Isn't it really sad that Ned told him that and you think about the experience Ned has in war? Yes. Actually, when you put it like that, now it's just fucking sad. Again. Just wanted to make sure you were sad too. You just wanted to make sure I was still

sad. Yeah. So, Jon kind of realizes, though, in this little moment, you know, he's looking around the camp, seeing the kids and the animals and these are just people. Like, in this this moment he knows these are people on the run right and this is what ends up making him leaving so hard in the end it's so hard for him to betray them yes i think he kind of does it ultimately right yeah with the hope of helping them in the end because he's like we got to keep this wall up

because there's this whole other army where discipline is not going to beat numbers this is the one out of ten where it's not going to work against the army of the dead where they're just sheer sheer strength yeah and and they don't feel pain that's it not so easy mansa's tent is thrice the size of any of the other tents it's sewn together with some polar bear hides and it's crowned with giant antlers and at first i was like you're not gonna like those antlers later buddy but then i was like oh they're elk antlers not stag antlers how different are they i mean an elk is just a sillier looking giant stag if you think about it i digress they command john to leave ghost outside so john obeys and he enters the tent the tent is dark smoky and red and there's a dark man and a pretty blonde who both

share a horn of mead there's also a pregnant woman cooking hens over brazier not sharing a horn of mead she's being responsible and a gray-haired man in a black and red ragged cloak plays a lute over there singing the dornishman's wife which john finds incredibly weird he finds this very poetic for some reason because he's like oh they're singing the dornishman's wife and we are in the great freezing cold of the north. There's definitely a ton of symbolism in this song. Eliana and I discussed this a little bit

outside of this episode and we kind of went for a while digging deep and there's definitely symbolism. I'm going to let her take that wheel in just a minute, but I found this take on Reddit really interesting between two users users which one was glycerin and perfect m glycerin said the song is commonly known john recognized it when he met

mance later we learn of darren playing it it's phrased it makes it clear it's not actually a dornish song it's more of a northern thing since it makes more sense when being about some faraway exotic place. The details don't need to apply to Dorne at all. And Perfect M actually took it a little farther and says that there's no need to call them Dornish if you lived and sang the song in Dorne. It's basically expressing a foreigner's wife. In the show, it was actually used to make fun of the Dornish in King's Landing, kind of incite Oberyn's anger during the Great Purple Wedding adventures. But in the books, it's really only heard in Jon's chapters, a reference to it in Mel's, and indirectly in Arya's chapter with Daeron. This doesn't seem like it's a very complimentary to the Dornish and is definitely not a Dornish

song. But as you said, it's kind of rude, but I guess like they die at the end, right? Yeah. But Chloe and I talked extensively. I was like, there's something in the song and I don't know what it is. And I looked through a bunch of different interpretations people had of the song and theories around it and the lyrics. And so there was just like a lot of interesting lines in this. And some people think that it's about Roose Bolton because there's a line where the Dordishman's blade had a slug of its own and a bite sharp and cold as a leech. And then of course Roose Bolton is associated with leeches. You see other people associating it with Mance Rayder sleeping with someone and having to do with

Lord Commander Corgyle. But I think that the meaning of the song and the symbolism actually might be a little more poetic than that. At the same time, perhaps less significant in terms of plot events. There's one plot event that it might have to do with, right? And so we

think that the Dornishman's wife actually symbolizes summer, the season. The Dornishman's wife actually symbolizes summer, the season. The Dornishman's wife was as fair as the sun. Her kisses were warmer than spring. And then, of course, she would sing as she bathed. And then she has a voice that was sweet as a peach. And from A Clash of Kings, which comes a little before this, we get the sort of establishment and symbolism idea, in a literary sense, of peaches being associated with that idea of youth of naivete of those sweet summer children and so i think the dornishman's

wife is very much summer and then at the end of the song we have i don't know the guy sleeping with the dornishman's wife who's not the Dornishman, dying and singing about how his days are done, but what does it matter if Rahman must die and they've tasted the Dornishman's wife. They've tasted summer and joy and happiness, so it's fine. And the Dornishman's blade, though, again, made of

black steel, kiss was a terrible thing, and the song of its own is a sharp bite and it's cold as a leech whoever slept in the dornishman's wife is laying on the ground the darkness around it seems like maybe the dornishman's blade and the dornishman even though he's supposed to be from a warm area is is winter he might not be winter but like you get the idea it might not actually be that he's winter but i think the dornishman's wife is summer that's it there's something in it referencing the white walkers

and it's only in john's arc right like here's the the weird thing it's only a song that's seen in john's story and aria gets a little tiny indirect taste of it she hears darren singing it and i'm sure it's referenced a few times in song like lightly you know nothing nothing direct but a song about a dornishman or a song about the dornish or you know stuff like that it's not quite in anyone else's arc so it's definitely something to do with winter there's there's a winter summer connection i think that's smart and i think the blade is the biggest giveaway on that yeah and it might not even be that deep. Like, people have songs that personify and are about seasons

all the time in real life, right? Yeah. Like the seasons of love, like we talked about last week. Here's another song discussing the seasons of love. That's true. It is also another way that it's a season. They're all songs about ice and fire in different ways. And aren't all songs about love

in the end? Anyways, so Rattleshirt removes his helm, and it turns out he's like a normal ugly dude with a weird mustache and a pinched face. Yeah, Rattleshirt's kind of fucking annoying, and I think he plays a similar role for Jon's story

throughout his journeys with the Free Folk that Alistair Thorne did. He's kind of a Snape-like character, right? But without the sad backstory that makes us actually like Snape, because we are Snape apologists on this podcast. And only because he's part of

the Free Folk can actually actively say that he wants to kill Jon, unlike Alistair. And in that role, he actively antagonizes Jon, just like Alistair, playing foil to that top dog who is Mansor Jer, who ends up becoming a mentor figure to Jon. Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, hey, his sacrifice for Mance is the sad backstory, right? That's it.

That's his redeeming quality. Because Jon says in Jon 11 and Storm of Swords Rattleshirt we called him treacherous and bloodthirsty if there's honor in him he hides it beneath his suit of bones it's not really a backstory though it's a forward story you know it's his end story it's his end game for Rattleshirt

and I don't know if I would call it like a sacrifice but it's not one that Rattleshirt chose, and therefore it's not like I think of it as a redeeming quality on his part, because he's just screaming like, y'all are making a mistake, and everyone's like, wow,

I really thought that Mance Reader was gonna go down better. It's a great sacrifice, someone had to do it. Yeah, but he didn't choose it, and I think that plays into a lot of the other things that A Song of Ice and Fire is wrestling with, right? Like that self-sacrifice and choosing to do it as opposed to be like, yeah, I'm going to sacrifice some other person. That counts.

Rattleshirt's a free folk anti-hero. Is he? Yup. Rattleshirt for president. If I had to pick one, I would pick the weeper. I would have gone elf and crow killer. Come on now. He's terrifying. So, John examines the other men that are in the room. Yes, there's a short broad man who's eating a hen, grease dripping down his face and into his snowy beard. He's got

thick gold bands around his arms with runes carved into them and the heavy black chainmail of a ranger. And then there's also another dude looks pretty different he's a tall and lean man they must look like the number 10 when they stand next to each other in bronze scales with no ears and he leans over a map and he's bald and muscled both the white bearded man and the bald one were warriors that was played to john at a glance these two are more dangerous than rattleshirt by far he wondered which was man's raider i love that man's has been built up as such a legend so this all seems silly at first because now that we know who man's is you're like yeah you got it a little

you weren't really on the money there john but you got all these quotes like even in brand one the very first chapter you get a quote about the deserter from the Night's Watch. Rob thought he was a wildling. His sword sworn to Mance Rayder that came beyond the wall and made Bran's skin prickle to think of it. He remembered the hearth tales old Nan told him. The wildlings were cruel men, she said. Slavers and slayers and thieves, they consorted with giants and ghouls. Stole girl children in the dead of night

and drank blood from polished horns and their women lay with the others in the long night to sire terrible half-human children. You have this whole people that obviously the Stark kids, including Jon, because he's a Stark kid, shut up, they've been hearing all these things

since they were little, even as far as stories tell from old Nan. And even in Jon 3 and A Game of Thrones, him and Tyrion even discuss Mance Rayder, and Jon thinks, you know, he wanted to fight Mance Rayder's wildlings and ward the realm against the others, but it was better not to speak of the things you wanted. And then Catelyn and Ned even discuss Mance and the wildlings

in A Game of Thrones and Catelyn 1. So Mance has very much been built up as this huge legend you wanted and then catalan and ned even discussed manson the wildlings and game of thrones and catalan one so mance has very much been built up as this huge legend for not only the characters but us as a reader and john is very right to look around and try to decide who is the best warrior of them to kind of think of who mance is it just turns out that's not who Mance is. Yeah, as the final verse of The Dornishman's Wife ends, the Earless Man notices Jon, and he's disgusted that a crow is in their midst, and Rattleshirt's like, yeah, he's the bloody warg,

and he's the one that killed Oril. I've been telling everyone that. This guy sucks. That's what, that's Rattleshirt right now. But Ygritte's like, no, this guy's the best, and defends Jon and says he slew Corrin. And then everyone gets super offended because they all wanted to kill Corrin. Yeah, absolutely.

Jon is like, this is making my life so weird. He mistakes the bald man for Mance Rayder and calls him your grace. And everyone was just like, that was a double faux pas. And then they start cackling. They're like, you thought that was Mancece and mance like totally red velvet curtains like come into the room and they clear and mance is like in his tap dancing shoes and he like does a whole number with a princess twirl onto the screen he like sits up with his lute and plays his own intro music right his like cloak is all flowing he's like i'm man's

like i'm just imagining it's a full production when it comes to man's man he is always on all the time that's true he's always acting especially when he's able i guess later on and playing rattleshirt god his dream role i'm sure but yeah as as it says john gets ridiculed for thinking that stir is mance and this is the second time if you'll recall that john is actually wrong about what a king looks like because if you'll remember in a game of thrones john thinks that oh that's what a king should look like when he sees jamie lannister and then he's like but that's what a king should look like when he sees Jaime Lannister. And then he's like, but that's not the king. He's very, very disappointed by what the king does look like. And by that, we mean the way that he judges Robert Baratheon.

And Mance is kind of on the other side of all of that. He doesn't look like a king, but unlike Robert, he cares gravely about his people. And I mean, he's a pretty good fighter too, as we'll see later on when he spars against Jon and, I don't know, does all the other things that Mance does. But is he the best among the wildlings? He's definitely not. And Mance shows how a good story, or narrative, right, can be powerful for bringing people together and under a king like it's going to be for, I mean, like, Aegon. Aegon, as Varys points out. And that's exactly what they're crafting around him because power, after all, isn't just brute strength. And then, of course, Mance is a great example of finding kings where you don't expect them. Snow, Eliana. Snow, Chloe, snow. But what does it matter, for all men must die, the king beyond the wall said lightly,

and I've tasted the dornishman's wife. Tell me, does my lord of bones speak truly? Did you slay my old friend, the half-hand? I did, though it was his doing more than mine. The shadow tower will never again seem as fearsome, the king said with sadness in his voice. Corrin was my enemy, but also my brother once. So, shall I thank you for killing him, Judd Snow? Or curse you? He gave Jon a mocking smile. The king beyond the wall looked nothing like a king, nor even much a wildling. He was ofdling height slender sharp-faced with shrewd brown eyes

and long brown hair that had gone mostly to gray there was no crown on his head no gold rings on his arms no jewels at his throat not even a gleam of silver he wore wool and leather and his only garments of note was his ragged black wool cloak its long tears patched with faded red silk. You ought to thank me for killing your enemy, John said finally, and curse me for killing your friend. Har! boomed the white-bearded man. Well answered!

That was good. That was a showstopper. Thank you. I was like, I gotta boom this. Fuck. And this is actually a very good answer from Jon. And, of course, it plays into all those different things that we've been talking about, like, forever, like, throughout all of these things of

contradictions manifesting in the series. Jon, he's now both enemy and friend. Horns are both safety and threat. Love, hate, ice, burn, you know, all these things. Anyway. He was who he was. Jon Snow snow bastard and oathbreaker motherless friendless and damned again head dead and damned that's pretty much what this is right it's all those opposites combating each other but mance suddenly begins to introduce john to the

crew which is when we're sitting here like ah he's so in uh the mean bald dude is steer the magnar of then like you mentioned mcnar actually means lord in the old tongue fun trivia fact torment is introduced as the chicken eater but he interrupts and he's like i deserve a real introduction highlights of this introduction include the tall talker hornower, breaker of ice, torment thunder fist, husband to bears, the mead king of Ruddy Hall, speaker to gods and father of hosts. Those all sound made up. He's fond of wargs, but not Starks, he says.

We meet Dalla, the woman at the fire who is carrying his child. He tells John to treat her like he would anything, and John does. And the beauty, of course, is her sister Val. The boy with her, the dark man, is Jarl, her recent pet. And I just love this

exchange back and forth. I am no man's pet, said Jarl, dark and fierce. And Val's no man, white-bearded Tormund snorted. You ought to have noticed that by now, lad. I love one family. It's them.

They were a very cute, sweet family. Also, Val is to Asha as Jarl is to Carl? I think yes. I mean, George got lazy and just like changed a letter.

And everyone's like, oh, you Val's bitch. That's what they're saying to him. He's like, fuck you. No, I'm not. And Carl's probably like, yeah, I am. Asha pugs me. Anyways. Maybe Jarl and Carl are, you know, while we're here, the same person.

And that's why he's saying he's not Val's bitch, because he's Asha's bitch. I don't agree with you. I made that up. Anyways. So there you have us, Jon Snow, said Mance Rayder. The king beyond the wall in his court, such as it is. And now some words from you, I think. Where did you come from? John tells Mance of his journey. He starts in Winterfell and works his way up to the Milkwater. He tells him how many they were and how they died. We were four in the half hand.

Corrin was worth 20 common men. The Kangby on the wall smiled at that. Aww. Real sad. Like the biggest sad hours. Literally like Corrin and Mance. I would take a book of those adventures. They loved each other and they hated each other.

They were sworn enemies who loved each other. Fuck. No, really, I wish I would fuck. Did you- I did not expect to go into this reread of Jon's chapters and then suddenly just start being devastated about Corrin and

Mance's brotherhood. I knew it was gonna happen, but here we are anyway. I mean, I knew it was gonna happen, but I didn't realize I was gonna feel it so deeply. Oh yeah, I'm dying. Yeah, there's a lot of feelings in all of the Jon chapters. This is what it's like being a teenager.

And we're doing it all over again. Doing it live. Right here, everyone. Welcome. Jon prepares himself, though, for the lies that he must tell. He tells him he was being trained by Corrin. Uses the term seasoned. But they don't know why crows would come ranging up the scrolling path so far.

I mean, it's pretty fucking obvious but you know john mixes in a little bit of a half truth he's like the villages were all deserted but they're smarter than that and torment just calls him out on it and he's like it was craster and man's is like you motherfucker i knew that i was trying to see if he would lie now i won't know ever. And he ushers all of them out and he's like, I need to talk to you one-on-one, macho to macho, without Dalla. Like, Dalla can stay. She's cool. Yeah, Dalla's not gonna blow up the spot.

I do like that exchange, though, between him and Tormund. And Tormund's like, even me? And he's like, especially you. You gotta go. It's kind of like they're the total hippie camp that doesn't know what they're doing and man says like we have enough strength like we'll get over the wall we'll figure it all out we're great everyone listened to the song on my loot but at the same time maybe he's just trying to calm everyone down because like yeah sure everyone's everyone's panicked there's literally others yeah but yeah i do love that this moment also happens because it's very lucky for john obviously it's george r martin doing that thing where he

thumbs the scales but it's kind of clever because through this we learned that mance is cunning this is that characterization through showing but at the same time we now don't know how john would have answered and as you said now mance is never gonna fucking know well and that's the one interesting thing we don't know how john's going to answer however we know how he forms his reaction after this right and john gets a little manipulative a little political he thinks on what will affect mance when they're one-on-one talking and this is kind of his moment to shine and to sing his own little bird song and see if uh mance looks through the tricksy crow armor and will accept the man within so mance offers john food and hearth and mead

they begin to chat about their time in the watch and mance warns him do not play the tricksy crow with me as you say you're you're mance the king laughed you're manse why not i promised you a tale before of how i knew you have you puzzled it out yet you're manse why not the way he speaks is so ridiculous and frivolous like he's just a dramatic bitch how you puzzled it out snow it's a riddle he's like the riddler he's literally anigma right like that's him i do also love that like man says he's called the man to some and at first you're just like wow uh you just gave yourself a nickname but i mean torment obviously is doing that all the time but anyway he's saying

the man's and we see actually that ned is referred to as the ned by some of the northmen later on in the series. And this shows that this is actually a quirk of their regional dialect. And I think that shared bit of the shared bit of language between the free folk and the Northerners just goes to show that they do share some of that culture as Egret was trying to press into him that these two peoples or actually several different peoples, right.

Come together at once. Aren't so different from the northerners and the west rossi in many ways in fact they used to be one back in the day yeah there is also this line uh where john asks him later to tell his tale where he thinks the king was plainly a man who liked the sound of his own voice and i think it's great that john catches on to this and he's listening and he's learning and he's trying to figure out who mance is and trying to catch his numbers so he can manipulate him and we're seeing kind of this big like oh all of a sudden the stark kids

are progressing in their arc a little like bran is finally almost at the three-eyed raven sanza is learning to lie better aa is about to undergo her assassin training after she steals off to the east later in this book. A Storm of Swords is really where these Stark kids come into their own, and Jon tells his first couple believable lies in this episode slash chapter. You did it, Jon. Mance quizzes Jon of the two times that he had seen him. it, Jon. Mance quizzes Jon of the two times that he had seen him. When Mance was a brother of the Watch long, long ago,

he had seen Jon and Rob as wee babs stockpiling snowballs when the Watch escorted Commander Corgyle to visit Winterfell. And then, I love that Jon's like, you promised not to tell on us! And he's like,

and I didn't! And then John remembers pouring a bunch of snowballs on Fat Tom. I know! Oh, Fat Tom. And then the next time that he saw John at Winterfell was when King Robert came to Winterfell, and then Mance just full-on, straight-up Dungeons & Dragons, bards his way in there.

So there you are. The night your father feasted Robert. I sat in the back of his hall on a bench with the other free riders listening to Orland of Oldtown play the high harp and sing of dead kings beneath the sea. I betook of your lord father's meat and mead. Had a look at Kingslayer and Imp and made passing note of Lord Eddard's children and the wolf pups that ran at their heels. Bael's aboard, said Jon, remembering the tale that Ygritte had told him in the Frostfangs the night he'd almost killed her. Would that I were, I will not deny that Bael's exploit inspired mine own. But I did not steal either of your sisters that I recall.

Bael wrote his own songs and lived them. I only sing the songs that better men have made. There's a few things I want to call out in this passage. He says, you know, I did not steal either of your sisters that I recall. However, he is sent to steal Arya in a Dawada, which of course is unsuccessful. It seems like so far for him, he doesn't make it out. But Arya, quote unquote, makes it out. He does the mission. Right.

He gets the mission. So half successful, half not. But I also find the Orland of Oldtown playing the high harp interesting because of what he sings. He sings of dead kings beneath the sea, which reminds me a a lot of patch face who makes it to the wall obviously eventually here and just makes me want to go ah orland of old town was he singing i know i know oh oh oh like that's all i'm expecting like what's a song about dead kings beneath the sea keeping the topic on songs. Bale wrote his own songs and lived them.

I only sing the songs that better men have made. I think that is supposed to start coloring our reasoning for A Dance with Dragons, Mance, who goes to Winterfell to Bale to bard it then as well. And we'll talk about that later. But that's him living a song instead of him playing the songs that better men have made he's finally living a song and then mance talks about guest right and how once he had taken of ned's meat mead he was safe by the laws of hospitality which are as old as the first men and as sacred as a heart tree this is foreshadowing by the way

happy storm of swords oh yeah they're gonna die we just started and i'm like already sad so finally mance is like all right are you for real why are you in my tent tell me your real story and john is like if you show me yours i'll show you mine so off mance goes and i do love this one passage i'll read it and i know you have some comments the half hand was carved of old oak but i am made of flesh and i have a great fondness for the charms of women which makes me no different than three quarters of the watch. I like this because, A, I mean, sure, maybe 25% of that 25% of the watch, maybe some of them are asexual, right? But a bunch of them, I'm pretty sure, are gay.

That's a very nice statistic. It is, and I think it's... It kind of makes sense, you know? If you think about it, this is a good place to go to get out of, like, I don't know, societal pressure forcing you to marry a woman. Yeah, it's like this or the Citadel, and that's it, homie. Yeah, or you could just, like, piss off everyone else in your family and pull a Brendan Blackfish. Not everyone gets to be Alyssa Farman. That's true. Not everyone gets to just go

sailing. Right. So, Mance tells John the reason he deserted was mostly his cloak and tells him it's history. We hear the tale that we talked about in the last episodes where Corrin talks about a brother who would hunt shadow cats and Mance was out hunting a brother who would hunt shadow cats and mance was

out hunting a shadow cat the shadow cat tears his cloak to shreds and his men took him to heal at a wildling healer's house the old lady that was the healer had died but her daughter knew her secrets and tended to mance patching him and his cloak up and she patches his cloak up with scarlet silk, which is her greatest treasure from a shy. Noteworthy that it's red, scarlet-y silk, so of course it would be expensive. Dyes were expensive. It's why you don't see a lot of color in the North because the North obviously doesn't have a lot of good trading, as we've kind of mentioned very lightly in past episodes.

It's why clothing like blue-colored clothing would likely be expensive as hell because of dye and this would be no different. How would a wildling woman get a piece of beautiful scarlet silk from a shy? It was uh it had like floated up there in like a boat or something was supposed to be how it got there and yeah I mean. It's her greatest treasure. Yeah not only is it expensive because of the color and its beauty but I mean it's silk it's so rare it's her greatest treasure yeah not only is it expensive because of the color and it's beauty but I mean it's silk it's so rare it's a piece of a whole other world

she'll never see yeah absolutely and it's just like Ygritte says about her dress you know in the show the don't tear my silk dress Jon Snow Snow that's right one of the cutest moments

they had chemistry probably because they actually got married anyways so when mance finally returns to the shadow tower he's equipped with a new black wool cloak clean nicely cut no rips and dennis mallister reminds him that men of the watch only wear black he leaves the next morning to live where he cannot be punished for loving or not wearing pink on a Wednesday. Yes. And I mean, it's because down in the smell of service, like you got to burn that.

You know that, right? And I think one of the many reasons people like Nance amongst many, one of the reasons that I love him is he leaves the watch, right? It seems like he's doing it for something so petty and trivial. And that's the thing. Like the watch thinks that this cloak, they don't even remember why Mance left, even though this is a huge deal.

This is why he left, but it was so petty and trivial. No one even remembers it that he left because his cloak wasn't black. And then Mance's choice to desert me, get an idea of who he really is. He's a romantic. There was meaning in that woman's gesture and her giving her greatest treasure to repair his cloak. Yeah, the only way he could repay that was his sort of honor, right? way he could repay that was his sort of honor right in the way that ned honored brandon and rickard in the way that you know john found his honor in leaving egret in the way that rob married jane for mance his honor was leaving the watch for this woman who had given up basically the

biggest most important thing in her life for him a stranger that did this exactly and mance just couldn't divorce that act of sacrifice that she makes that of this treasure and for his piece of cloth that they were going to replace anyway like he chooses a world where he gets to give things meaning and worth not one where it's dictated for him which i think is perfectly apt for a man who loves songs he hasn't written them yet but that's what it means and with that mance has a people he has a people that he plans to defend which is pretty admirable it almost gives an edmure quality to it right like my people they were afraid and wouldn't you protect and defend those who follow your leadership whether they were warriors or whether they were innocent and weak it helps to build up the switch in a dance

with dragons that we get in mansa's relationship with john both sort of their own man a lone wolf on their own path and mansa's come to respect Jon in his own way, agreeing to spring Arya from Winterfell. Regarding what you were saying about that leadership and Mance's honor, he has a horn that he thinks is the horn of Jormun, but he makes a choice to not blow it. Don't blow it, Mance. Because, hey, it would be a bad idea, but he doesn't know why yet in that sense. But he's not willing to blow the horn because he's like, we still are going to need this wall later.

John took another swallow of mead. There was only one tale he might believe. You say you were at Winifell the night my father feasted King Robert. I did say it, for I was. Then you saw us all, Prince Joffrey and Prince Tommen, Princess Myrcella, my brothers Robb and

Bran and Rickon, my sisters Oya and Sansa. You saw them walk the centre aisle, with every eye upon them, and take their seats at the table just below the dais where the king and queen were seated i remember and did you see where i was seated months he leaned forward did you see where they put the bastard i think we had best find you a new cloak the king said holding out his hand oh man what a great end to a chapter he did it our boy

did it he pulled it off john's lies worked and you know interestingly enough john is getting a new cloak here and a lot of cloak symbolism we've read and talked about in the book especially if you look back to our episode with lady gwynn where we talked about Sansa's cloak from Sandor and what it means. Jon is turning cloak, but he's also getting a new cloak, accepting a new ruler, accepting a new protector, as long as he does his part. But in this time, in this chapter, Jon has learned these folk are not all warriors and horrible and raiders and savages there's a gentle nature to them right like dare i say it they might be human there's personification and humanization that just happened in this chapter they aren't just wild savages that drink the blood of little kids like old nan would tell him

and the black cloak represented duty which as we know love is the death of duty uh but it's duty to something that john could no longer believe in something he was born into much like mance and where we talked about arthur and corinne parallels i wonder if the real mance equals rhaegar theory is the friends we made along the way but also if it's not the friends we made along the way the real manse equals rhaegar parallels are the red and black cloak that manse has and john refusing to let the color of a cloak color who he is rejecting his own red and black targaryen cloak in the future i imagine is definitely going to come and i wonder if manse equals Rhaegar really is something more like that. That is what we're seeing those echoes in.

It fits thematically for a reason. It fits thematically for us to think of it that way. Yeah, I love that. I love that you've tied cloaks as, you know, cloaking their identity and John's choice and the decision that he makes for himself, because that's absolutely what it is symbolizing for Mance. Yeah, oh, absolutely. This is just the beginning of what Mance does for John as far as the effect on his character. We all see these characters that end up as mentors for these people and we know they're not going to be the Stark

mentors forever. Syrio obviously is dead. And eventually the kindly man, as much of a mentor as he can be, will not be Arya's mentor for long. Sansa won't stay with Littlefinger forever in the end. Thank god. Fucking god. I hope he gets a fucking

job. Fucking quit using my tax money little figure and uh john is very much learning from mance right now he's trying to understand you know what do i do who do i choose what do i choose and what am i am i a wolf of the pack and later he'll be faced with a new addition a new variable to that which is am i ahead of the pack and later he'll be faced with a new addition a new variable to that which is am i ahead of the dragon ultimately i don't know if he chooses like being a stark i don't know what that that that was exactly what they were communicating in the show but he's gonna just be john gonna choose being John. Somehow. Some way.

Or not. I don't know. Something. Motherless, friendless, oathbreaker, and damned. He certainly does choose damned, okay? That is his fate, unfortunately. There were no good choices. Yeah, absolutely not.

Hey, next week, you guys, we're gonna do john 2 on its own we're gonna keep up this one chapter by chapter uh reading just for a few chapters we actually have a guest coming on in a couple weeks we won't tell you now but if you tune into next week's episode you're gonna get a sneak preview of who it's gonna be we're very excited to have them on we've worked with them a couple times before and it's a good choice i think for one of my favorite chapters of all time oh it's a fantastic chapter has to do with some caves honestly oh wow a couple of caves some cavernous moist anyways so wow wow as always you guys can subscribe to us on social media follow us on girls gone canon on twitter that's at girls gone canon or send us a quick email at girls gone canon at gmail.com

if you want to send eliana fan mail which we seem to be getting a lot of please feel free to do that we've also been appreciating seeing some of this fan art hey also if you will all remember davos fingers did a song of Madness in March and I get to plug people because this is my podcast. Check out, again, DrafterG who made that great strong Belwas illustration. They made one of Nimble Dick and Squishers. Yes! Nimble

Dick Crab Forever at DrafterG on Twitter and they also have an Instagram if you're living that insta-life. I follow them there. Check it out. Yes. And if you're living that insta life i follow them there check it out yes and if you aren't already subscribe to us on any platform or you can download podcasts eliana is going to tell you where to find us yeah you can find us on itunes on spotify on google play on stitcher on acast and of course on podbean where all of these things are actually hosted and if you have a few dollars burning in the bottom of your wallet we do have a Patreon

reminder that every Friday we will release an episode for free and we will also be releasing regular episodes on His Dark Materials coming up spend some money on us on Patreon if you have it, $5 and up gets you special monthly patron episodes they are fun. We just put out an episode on Dance of the Dragons.

It was part four of the dance with some of the aftermath. And you guys would like it, so check it out. There won't be a part five, will there? We don't know. Maybe you should listen to find out. But before you figure that out,

this month, of course, is July, and we will be doing our Patreon episode this month on... Well, there's a pretty big holiday here in this great old country that Chloe and I call home. America. America. America. America. And so we are going to do this month's episode

of Patreon on. Chloe, do you want to announce and tell it to our listeners? I would love to announce, but I am busy popping bottles because I am celebrating Northern Independence, which is what our Patreon episode is, Eliana, for the month of July. So if you are interested in

hearing that, sign up. $5 and up gets the episode. And if you got $1, throw it at us then too. You get some special extra notes, some silly posts from us. We just want to interact and have fun with you guys and we really appreciate your support. Thank you to all of our patrons who support us.

That is patreon.com slash girls gone canon. I have been Chloe. You know me. You know who I am. I don't have to say it. And I have been chloe you know me you know who i am i don't have to say it and i have been eliana you don't know who i am and i won't say it oh goodbye you guys goodbye