Girls Gone Canon Cast - ASOIAF Episode 59 - ASOS Jon III featuring Vanessa Cole (The Night’s Cast)

Episode Date: July 19, 2019

Together with special guest Vanessa Cole of The Night’s Cast, Girls Gone Canon dives deeper in Jon’s storyline as he dives in… some caves. Many caves.  Vanessa’s Twitter https://twitter.com/vkcoleartist  Vanessa’s Art https://t.co/nWkyzyUgfE?amp=1  Vanessa’s Patreon https://www.patreon.com/vkcoleart  - The Night’s Cast https://twitter.com/NightsCast - Vanessa’s writing for Watchers on the Wall http://watchersonthewall.com/author/vanessa-cole/    --Theon quote from “Art Imitates War: Post-traumatic Stress Disorder in A Song of Ice and Fire,” by Myke Cole (Book - https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0088Q9R5C/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1) --- Eliana's twitter: https://twitter.com/arhythmetric   Eliana's reddit account: https://www.reddit.com/user/glass_table_girl  Eliana's blog: https://themanyfacedblog.wordpress.com/  Chloe's twitter: https://twitter.com/liesandarbor  Chloe's blog: www.liesandarborgold.com 

Hello and welcome to Girls Gone Canon, episode 59, John 3 in a Storm of Swords featuring Vanessa Cole from the Knightscast. I am one of your hosts, Chloe. You might know me from the internet as Liza Narber on Twitter, Tumblr, and LizaNarberGold.com, my blog. And I am another one of your hosts, Eliana. You might know me as GlassTableGirl over on Reddit or on the Maester Monthly Podcast. Maybe you know me as Arithmetric over on Twitter. Hi guys, how are you? Thanks so much for having me on. Hey, thanks for coming. We're really excited that you're here. If you haven't checked Vanessa out, you can find a lot of her work on watchersonthewall.com where she is a writer. She has some wonderful pieces. She's

written some really good stuff. One of my favorites is your dragon and the wolf stuff with leon and rayguard thanks awesome i'm glad you read that one i'm a fan i worked really hard on it so thanks yes and you can also find her at the knights cast yes we actually just finished a live podcast recording at connor frones over this past weekend so we should have the audio out for that within the next week or so. And we're recording another episode this weekend to talk a little bit more about all the news that's coming out about the Game of Thrones

prequel, about the Long Night, and the Children of the Forest, White Walkers, Age of Heroes type thing. Tentatively called Blood Moon for now, but we're getting some really good information on that. They're filming a pilot now in Italy at the moment, so it's really exciting. So we're going to have fun talking about

that this weekend. Yeah, it's a pretty exciting prequel. I haven't been keeping up just because I am a strange person who likes to come into the things like just like pure, unsullied. Yeah, I'm very unsullied and I'm like, oh, I want to be surprised by all the

things and also i secretly still think that they should have just gone all in and named it basically periods but whatever i mean reverse is kind of fine too yeah i'm excited for it i think it could be cool i didn't think i was gonna be excited for it until like two days ago so so i'm a believer i guess now i saw some behind thescenes production-y spoiler photos on the internet. Can't say that in front of Eliana, though, so we'll move on. God. Yes. So this has been a long time coming.

We were really excited to have Vanessa on, and as we've discussed before, Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Did you just say A long time coming? Because you know what episode this is, Eliana, right? This is episode Goddammit I just want to make sure 59!

And it's only 59 because only one of them goes down on the other That's just how the episode in the chapter works Sorry, everyone If only we had had 10 more Blackwater episodes This could have been episode 69 Nice I'm sorry, but did not everyone. If only we had had ten more Blackwater episodes, this could have been episode 69. Nice. I'm sorry, but I did not. Actually,

Ygritte actually sounds like she does reciprocate at the end. It's vague, but you can kind of glean that from it, so, you know. I'm so glad we brought Master Analyst Vanessa Cole on for the sex episode.

For all the sex episode yes for all the sex exposition yes I'll be talking about all of the sexual imagery that George throws in there too so oh good yeah I actually saw that you mentioned some of it you thought we were going to get out unscathed no nipple talk Eliana but here we are I kind of forgot about it because like I was just like breezing through and then forgot to come back, double back for it. I'm glad that I have both of you here to do that. Each of you can be a nipple

on tonight's cast. Thank you for joining us, Vanessa. You're welcome. Let's talk about some emails and tweets of note. Hey, we got a really good, it was a review i think on itunes correct me if i'm wrong eliana was it a review this was in pod bean on the side bar and it looked like uh someone else was replying to it it looked like it was nested but i don't

know if it was i don't know where it comes from i had to go into the html to grab it i went inspected the element and pulled it out of the HTML. Interesting. Okay. I was wondering about this foreign language you spoke it in. There's just zeros and ones all over it. There's not. There's like literally one weird symbol. But yeah, so someone

sent us in a comment it seems from Podbean at Coalie, I believe it is. C-O-A-L-I-E. We're not sure if it's at Podbean, Twitter. No one knows. Where are you from? Who are you, Coley?

We appreciate you. Never realized I want GRRM to drop a tormented tall tales book. Say that 10 times fast. Narrated by Eliana until this episode. Har! Yes, thank you. I definitely blew out the audio there for a bit. Yeah, you did. And had to like

make it smaller, but thank you. And then also we got a couple of other tweets and stuff, and some of them will and we also got a couple of other tweets and comments, and some of them we'll bring up throughout the episode as they arise, but

this one was kind of uncouth because it wasn't directed at us. But it was a tweet that I thought was of note because I thought it was really interesting. It's quoting an essay that's about Theon Greyjoy from a few years ago, like in 2012, I think, in a collection of essays, and just did a great job articulating some of the ideas that really interested us about Theon's storyline when we were covering it many, many moons ago during that character read-through. And the person who quoted this, or the account that quoted it, is called BestOfTheon at A-S-O-I-A-F Theons. Plural Theons. T-H-E-O-I-A-F Theons. Plural Theons. T-H-E-O-N-S.

Like an addict, Greyjoy uses sex not so much as a source of pleasure, but to assuage a compulsion. Sex also appears to be a way for Theon to grasp some shred of personal power when, as a hostage, so much has been stripped from him. This is from Mike Cole's essay, Art Imit imitates war and we will actually link that essay yes and i think this was so interesting because we had discussed before and part of the reason why we chose to do this order of john's chapters following theons is because the two characters are such a great contrast to each other as these outsiders in Winterfell as people who long to be Starks but are not quite so it's interesting to see the relationship that Theon and Jon have with sex and how that differs because as Mike Cole says for Theon it's personal power and a way for him to claim it even though he's a hostage at Winterfell

as we discussed often throughout Dion's chapters. Whereas for John, it seems that he of course sees sex as shameful because of the way that he was brought up in Winterfell, and rejecting it is very much how he seems to try and create a sense of control and power in his own life. Yeah, Dion really has that whole sense of power and control from sex for him. That is his identity because that's all he has for him to make it as identity. So it's interesting to see how Jon rejects that and what sex does to him in his arc and what it instills in him. I also think a big reason Jon rejects sex is because growing up as a bastard, he thinks so often that he doesn't want to father one of his own and anytime he loses control and engages in a sexual act with someone there's the

chance that he could create another life that would go through what he went through growing up and he just adamantly does not want to do that so um like you said it's i think it is really about control and controlling the outcome of you know having another life like his i think every time he experiences something sexual too it seems to so far some sort of like romantic inclination in the books especially here he like loses that control right like that he he gets lost on his path which we see a lot of these starts as we've been talking about get lost on their path as they go through these books before they come back home and find winterfell again and john especially there's this line in the manimals have a song i've talked about it before on the podcast very briefly albeit uh but it's called

lone and it's from their game of thrones concept album Seven and the song has this line about Jon and Ygritte and how you know now I've got your scent how will I ever get home again and that's what happens with Ygritte Jon stays longer with the wildlings because of Ygritte in the end we know that's what it was yeah thought that was

really great and a perfect way to set us up for this chapter of Jon in the caves but before we get there let's talk about our lightning round before we get where eliana there has it been coming for a long time anyways before before we get to episode before we get to 59ing someday we'll hit 69ing i guess uh nice blaze it so lightning round sansa two sansa is fit for a gown but dantos later reminds her her claim is all that she is worth aria three aria loses part of her pack as hot pie takes a job offer and she reunites with harwin who rides with the brotherhood

she later tries to escape but but Harwin brings her back to eventually face Beric Dondarrion. Samwell I. The survivors of the zombie attack on the Fist make their way south, but Sam collapses exhausted. Small Paul carries Sam, but it slows their group down, and a hero must rise to protect them from the wights. Straight up top three Aswath chapters ever.

Aswath. Ass-off. Tyrion 3. A bunch of political stuff happens. We don't have time. This is a reread. So people live places, they want to own other places, and they're greedy. So Tyrion marries Sansa, and he has to and everyone's like, it's so sad. You're marrying the prettiest eligible prisoner

of war there is, and child bride there is. Shut up, asshole. So yeah, that's Tyrion 3 in a nutshell which brings us to catelyn three rob must put an end to karstark unrest in his camp and jane westerling asks catelyn advice on how to be a good wife to rob jamie three pining for his twin sister jamie rides along until he breen and isbe-dead Cleos are attacked by archers. Taken captive by the brave companions after a sparring performance, Jaime

barters with his father's gold that pays with his hand. I thought that was a good one. Just, you know, not to wax poetic here. I'm just saying, I thought I'd be good on that one. That was art. Arya IV. Traveling with the Brotherhood, Arya meets the ghost of High Heart.

Not as artful. Daenerys 2. After meeting the Unsullied, Daenerys is conflicted at liberating the men for her own army. Bran 2. After dining on the generosity of a little of the hills, Meera and Jojen tell Bran

an old story of a knight in shining armor and her prince it's canon bitch thank you Vanessa Vanessa is an official girl god kid all you deniers out there just give up this might be like my

favorite honestly this might be my favorite lightning round I've ever written because it's my favorite chapter probably this and Sons of Seven and Storm of Swords are probably my two favorite chapters. But we just talked about Sam 1. That's up there, but these are my top two. Bran 2 is in my top two, is what I'm telling you.

I don't know if it's 1 or 2, but it's my favorite. Okay. It's just magical. It's a magical chapter. Shut up, Eliana. This leads us to Davos 3, where Davos finds himself jailed with the hand of the king after a visit to his cell from the Red Woman. And finally, that brings us over to Jon III, forced to further assimilate where he does not belong. Jon makes good on his debt to Ygritte deep within a cave.

Or two. Of wonders. Oh my god. He could show you the world uh john climbs beneath the stars while looking for ghosts and we get this beautiful meta line on the series and the fandom and all the meta theorizing that goes along right we look up at the same stars and see such different things it also reminds me of somewhere out there the classic song from an American tale about an immigrant

mouse, Fievel Mauskiewicz that's my input thank you, Eliana one of my favorite movies as a kid same, same that song slaps so good yeah and i really love this line and it really makes me think of jamie's line i think it's in his next chapter um because it's after he loses his hand where he's looking at the stars and thinking how can such a night be beautiful?

Why would the stars want to look down on such as me? And, you know, they're really kind of in a place where they're both torn between love and duty and trying to figure out who they really are, especially now that Jaime has lost a part of himself and Jon too, because, you know, Jaime's lost his sword hand and that's, you know, he always thought of himself as a warrior and Jon is thinking to himself that he's lost the Night's Watch because he feels like a traitor.

And so they're really struggling with the difficulty of keeping their honor in these situations. And then, you know, they've got these conflicting oaths that they're trying to keep. So I just really liked that line kind of ties those two together. I love that George kind of captures that hypocrisy of life right i mean everyone can relate to this in your everyday life struggles whether it's like putting your shoes on in the dark i don't know everyone can relate it's relatable relatable content george thank you john thinks on everything maester luwin has taught him of the stars and the 12 houses of heaven and all of their rulers yeah and i'm i really like as he's kind of going through the names of the constellations or the stars in his head,

how he thinks he's old friends with some of them. And I was wondering if maybe this is like possibly foreshadowing the three heads of the dragon and perhaps their role in fighting the others later on. Because, you know, he talks about the ice dragon who i've always considered to be john because you know it's kind of self-explanatory he's ice he's dragon ice dragon and then he he thinks about the shadow cat which i'm wondering if that might reference tyrian because you know tyrian is a lion and there are so many quotes about tyrian that reference shadows so you know a small man can cast a large shadow, and

Makaro says he's a small man with a big shadow snarling in the midst of all. And then, you know, early on in Game of Thrones, we have the line that his shadow is tall as a king. So I thought maybe that was a reference to him. And of course, we have the moon maid, which brings Dany to mind,

because all of the moon imagery that surrounds her. She's the moon of Khal Drogo's life. So I thought that was kind of an apt comparison for her. And then he also thinks of the sword of the morning. So Dawn might bring her. So I think it's interesting that he's beyond the wall and thinking about these stars that might be symbolizing things that are going to be happening in the future beyond the wall perhaps yeah i thought that was really interesting and i couldn't like really piece together you know what these constellations might mean but i like the interpretation of them

being the three heads of the dragon i was trying to make it fit because like i was thinking maybe the shadow cat is aria but i think what's interesting about john is he fits into all of these different groups yet he goes between so many different social groups, and his struggle is constantly feeling as though he doesn't belong. constantly describe Tyrion throughout a lot of the chapters and in prophecies, like some of Quaith's or some of the visions that, I want to say it was the ones that Dany sees as like a small

white lion in the grass and like, I mean a cat's just basically a small lion. Do not say that loud enough for my cats to hear you. Jesus Christ. They're gonna be like, everything the light touches is ours. they already do that yeah i like this a lot better with tyrian as the shadow cat the shadow part of it really fits there

well uh it reminds me a lot in a way of all the man stuff going on with mance as the shadow cat and the shadow cat story from Corrin so I like that they're just keeping that shadow cat in as it's showing like it is a part of their everyday life and it's also a part of their lore and culture as well uh they have all sorts of different names for them like the red wanderer is one of them I liked and that's kind of akin to the smith they say so I'm guessing most of these are supposed to be like akin to the maiden or of course you have like the moon pale maiden for example in the east uh so maybe that's a reference to and i also thought maybe even with that three heads of the dragon idea john and his sisters as

well and thinking of like aria and sanza and the roles of starks might play and even with bran as light bringer in a way um the show didn't paint him in a detailed light of whatever the hell he's going to do in his brain with his mental magical wizard powers but I'm hoping as we read the story things might happen right there might be a little more magic than what we got to see on the TV show

so maybe he'll do something light bringing I'm willing to bet good money there'll be a lot more magic in the books you think i don't know i don't know i don't know maybe that's just yeah so i thought that was cool i didn't think about that till like you said shadow cat i was like what if also there's just like all these different i like that george has these patterns of three and four and different things that fit these characters so So when the thief is in the Moon Maid, because the thief is a different constellation that is akin to, I guess, the smith,

which is really interesting, Ygritte says that's actually the best opportunity to steal a woman, like the knight that Jon stole her. Wait, does that mean that Gendry's gonna steal Arya? The smith? Oh, yes. I don't know. I don't know.

I think that's foreshadowing. Or I kind of see it as like, I mean, Arya's a roguelike character. Gonna throw this out there. Arya steals Gendry. Oh, like brave Dany Flint? Oh, could be. Could be. But also Jon's like, I didn't steal you.

That's not what happened i didn't even know that you were a she until i was right about to kill you yeah he literally uses a language knife was at her throat and eager it's like if you kill a man whether you mean to or not you killed him and i'm like hey made your guilt about cor corin half hand right now right like john's like sitting there like thanks thanks for reminding me but also is this foreshadowing i don't know it could all be foreshadowing at this point i think there's what you said about him and corin that i also see it as tying into a little of what happens between him and egret at like the end of this book because he sees the arrows and knows that it can't possibly his but he feels that he killed her even though he didn't really and there's he didn't really mean to and it kind

of reminds me and ties john's story a little to Bloodraven's during the Blackfyre Rebellion. He led the attack, the archers against the Blackfyre troops, ending up killing Daemon Blackfyre's sons and Daemon Blackfyre. And for that, people called Bloodraven a kinslayer, even though technically, did he really kill him? Did he not? But that's something that people interpret as being Blood Raven's fault. We had a comment from Miss Mama on Podbean, actually, and she said something that really blew my mind. I didn't think about it. She left this comment saying maybe Mance in the last episode with that ridiculous helm, he got that from the Raven's Teeth men at the wall.

And I thought that was an interesting comment. I just never thought about where he would have gotten this ridiculous helm with the wings on it uh i i don't know i never thought about it i never thought about and you get all those echoes of you know mance's rhaegar as one of our friends ink tentacles on the internet tends to uh tweeted us in our last couple episodes obviously he's Rhaegar, but... Right. Anyway. Yeah, and I was also thinking, you know, you tied it to what happens with Ygritte, and I'm wondering if maybe it has some kind of reference to what may happen with him and Daenerys as well. I mean, we know how it played out in that show that's based on these books.

But I feel like... I'm sorry, did you mean the show that the books are based on? No, I'm joking. Wait a second. Anyway. But we saw, well, if you watched the show,

you saw how it played out there. And I feel like the circumstances will be a little different just because of all the cut characters and storylines that we didn't get to see. So I'm just wondering if maybe instead of it being a more deliberate act, if there's going to be some kind of, not necessarily accidental, but maybe something where it's even more conflicting for john like with egret where you know he he feels like he isn't necessarily to blame but he feels guilty anyway um and i think that would really you know if he ends up where he does in the show where he goes down the wall and kind of leaves society because of you know everything that he's gone through i think that that would probably kind of spur that along as well so who knows yeah it's

providing a lot of background for that whatever comes of this whole entire plot it's providing a really good foundation for it to build off of and there's a lot of language I'm seeing in this goddamn book in Storm of Swords and even some stuff from Dance that I'm reading ahead to think on that I'm just like oh yep okay I. Okay, I see it. Thanks, George. Look at me in the face now. Thanks for that one. It's interesting, though, because all that stuff only pops out in your mind after you've seen it, you know, and then it's just like when you see a car, right? When you're like, my girlfriend drives this car. It's a Ford, blah, blah, blah. And you've never seen this car in your life. And then the next day, you see it everywhere, right? Like,

that's all it is. It's nuts. It's hard to reread these books now i'm like oh shit yeah absolutely i definitely think that this is foreshadowing danny as well because i think you see a lot of repetition of all these different ideas and characters not just john that builds up to their later storyline so i definitely think this is speaking to that as well and so there's this really great quote where john thinks john had never met anyone so stubborn except maybe for his little sister aria is she still my sister he wondered was she ever he had never truly been a start only lord eddard's motherless bastard with no more place at Winterfell than Theon Greyjoy. And even that he'd lost. When a man of the Night's Watch said his words, he put aside his old family and joined a new one. But Jon Snow had lost those brothers too. He's a Stark at heart, man. I get it. Subtext.

He is rereading this quote now and thinking about that about Theon again. It's kind of, again, the same as what Theon did he put aside the Stark family even though yes he was a hostage and tried to rejoin the Greyjoys and in doing so has lost that family he lost his quote unquote brothers because he quote unquote killed them

but didn't John then finds Ghost at the top of the hill and he jokes with ghosts asking if ghosts had other words for the stars and gods too which is adorable and I think it's kind of interesting that ghosts likes heights which

I don't know if this is like speaking to John and heights and dragons or if it means John should bring ghosts on a dragon ride because dogs like sticking their heads out car windows and maybe this is the same energy these are just ideas I don't know how ghosts would hang on would he have to like fight on a spine with his mouth

I don't know Tyrion will design a saddle for ghosts oh man does that redeem him for it? no it doesn't almost I also like how Jon thinks about how the bird marked both of them and I remember you guys

saying in your last episode kind of comparing the bird to Bloodraven and how it brings Bloodraven to mind and so it kind of made me think about how blood raven kind of marked both of them as well because you know ghost obviously he looks like a weirwood he's an albino blood raven albino ghost is white with red eyes blood raven sigil was a white dragon with red eyes um so it's like blood raven chose ghost specifically for john and i think john was also kind of another chosen one of blood raven so perhaps he saw the uh important role that he

would be playing the war for the dawn and that's why he sent him this animal um kind of the way he chose bran as well because they have similar but different roles to play so uh i just thought that was an interesting quote it's really crazy when you think that because you're like blood raven's sitting with bran right now and bran's just like sitting there and blood raven's guiding his arm going reach out across the weirwoods oh your bastard brother john open his eye that's what's happening like his siblings are his training right now oh Ooh. Oh, ew. Isn't that weird, though?

Like, think about it. Like, it's just, like, this weird tree dude holding Bran, cradling him, going, yes, reach out and touch them. Weird creepy kid. Reach out and touch them. But, yeah, I think this reminds me of two things that you were saying. you were saying so i think today which is tuesday i don't know this this time in july right uh a new version of i forgot which some game of thrones thing came out and there's an illustration of the dead direwolf with a raven atop it and it's a really beautiful illustration and people are taking this to be a sign that or a confirmation that Bloodraven did indeed send the direwolf to the Stark children.

But it also makes me think this idea of marking them, and this is like really out there. It reminds me of in the Bible, after Cain kills his brother Abel, and so his relative, right? brother Abel and so his relative right killing one's own blood their relative God marks Cain so that no one will harm him but Cain then is sent off into exile and I don't know if this is something George is playing with yeah and he's marked by his brother he's marked by God for the sin of killing his brother and has to wander it's interesting you say that because it's like they also talk about how wargs are basically the mark of the beast. Like, straight up the mark of the beast.

You know what I mean? Yeah. So it's kind of like a very on-the-head reference. And that is from the Folio edition of Game of Thrones that was released where those pictures are. We'll have to post some of them on our Twitter at Girls Gone Canon. They're really cool.

Someone on Reddit posted a link with a handful of pictures, and there's one of Sansa in Sansa 2 in A Game of Thrones at the tourney. There's Daenerys when she's eating a horse heart, and there is the crow, the raven, three-eyed, whatever the fuck you want to call him, the birb, sitting on the direwolf and the antlers in it. So interesting. I do think it's confirmation.

I mean, I think it's like a yes we know so john tells ghosts they have to part again tomorrow that he cannot climb the wall with them that would be a silly sight to see uh he tells ghosts to head back to castle black and that they will know him when he arrives duh he had no quills to send a message with as it was he thought about it but it was just too risky yeah i just think it's hilarious he's like i'm really hoping my dog understands what i'm saying it kind of reminds me of a couple of animal things a oppa's last day lost days in avatar the last airbender also homeward bound because i saw a sad picture of shadow in the mud recently and that has been top of mind for me lately um i can't

watch that movie without crying yeah no animal movies i agree yeah it also reminds me of namaria oh with aria yeah it just um it just makes me think of Alone with Dias, but the pack survives. I mean, we know they don't die now, but anytime that they're aparted from their worlds, it makes me nervous. Bad things happen. Not good. Yeah. And I guess it's also symbolically,

right, now that I think about it, because whatever, in this chapter, as Jon wavers regarding his vows, and he's like, who am I? I'm unsure. because whatever. In this chapter, as Jon wavers regarding his vows, and he's like, who am I? I'm unsure. So it's kind of apt that he sends Ghost away during that part, whereas before

he kept Ghost in between him and Ygritte as he stood fast by his vows. The sword between them was Ghost, and now Ghost is gone, and then, well, we see what happens after the knight removes his sword from the bed later on oh nicely done george that's where that went that's literally where that went that was the whole thing that ghost was the sword between them and then ghost peaced out

okay interesting so ghost does peace off though he's like trot, trot. He gets out of there, and John surveys the ground around them. It's uneven, and trees are everywhere, and it's lucky for them. It conceals those on the way to the wall, but it makes them more slow-moving. John feels hopeless and helpless, and he feels like he should have done more. He should have done everything, he thinks, to try and kill Mance in that moment that Corrin half hand would have but then he tells himself no I'm just biding my time though day by day he rides with

Styr and the suspicious Jarl and Ygritte is also never far off I think it's a little funny that he thinks that Corrin would have killed Mance because that's basically committing suicide. And I mean, yes, Mance brought all these people together, but do you think they're just gonna give up

if he dies? Probably not. So I think it's a little short-sighted for him to think that. Yeah. Also, Corrin loved Mance. Like, that's literally what we gleaned from the last two chapters. Like, yeah, if he went out trying to kill Mance, he'd go out. But like, Corrin was straight up just like,

I had a brother once. I loved him. Anyway, moving on. You know, like, that's it. Yeah. It's not very strategic like you're saying, Vanessa. Like, maybe it would have worked, but also just like, I mean, there's a lot of people. Right? Stir would take over. It's a dumb, it's just not a very smart

move. I mean, he is a teenage boy. I know. Oh, John, our teenage child. Our maid. He's no longer a maid. Two hearts that beat as one. Mance Rayder's mocking words rang bitter in his head. John had seldom felt so confused.

Okay, sure. What? You're, like, always confused. And damned. I have no choice, he told himself the first time, when she slipped beneath his sleeping skins. If I refuse her, she will know me for a turncloak. I'm playing the part the half-hand told me to play.

But oh, his body is sure playing the part well enough, he thinks. You know, like with his dick. Yes. That is a thing, Chloe. I think this is hilarious. It's like, like we said, teenage boy, it's like, I'm trying to justify why I'm doing this, but

I gotta give myself a good reason for it, but you know, he probably doesn't feel that bad about it. At least like during, you know, I just think it's hilarious that he he probably doesn't feel that bad about it at least like during you know i just think it's hilarious and he's like oh but there's a good reason yeah at the very end he's like oh no why did i do that it was the worst thing i've ever done it's horrible i love how um i don't know when it is, at some point in a few lines, Jon's like, I'm never going to do it again.

And then the line switches to, they did it two more times that night. Yeah, that's my favorite. I'm like, I see you, George. I like how also Ygritte constantly repeats to Jon, of course, you know nothing, Jon Snow, but I can show you. And that comes up a couple times throughout this chapter. And it's kind of fun because nothing is a double entendre. In Shakespeare's time, nothing was a pun on this term un. So A-N, the article in terms of grammar un o thing which is basically a euphemism

for vagina and so this is a chapter in which john really gets to know nothing oh oh thing yeah i get it. Yes. That's it. That was, thank you for the sex position. That's what I, well, I mean, I think it's definitely something George is playing with. That's why Egret's always like, you know nothing. And then the Lord, well, we're not there yet. You watch your tongue. So much ado about nothing is much ado about vaginas.

Yes. so much to do about nothing is much to do about vaginas yes it's something that he's definitely playing with like a comedy of errors is largely about syphilis that's true well I mean it's a joke but it's true no it is true I'm learning so much

you know you got Eyes Wide Shut, Kubrick with all the crazy shit going on in that movie and like colts and shit like what if shakespeare was just trying to expose all of the the damned of his time through his plays and then it just got regarded as art sorry bill so sorry maybe just people liked dick jokes but vagina jokes instead i mean mean... STDs. Everyone had them. Sex and the Free Folk? City? Is

Egret Miranda? I need to watch Sex and the City. I'm sorry, everyone. I know, I know. There's so many things that I haven't seen that disappoint Chloe. Isn't she more Samantha? Is that Kim Cattrall yeah i think i think she's more samantha actually you're right you're right a little wild aliana you're gonna have to watch

him weigh in oh i'm glad that we brought vanessa on because i'm like at least someone can respond to chloe's assertion regarding sex in the city no it's fine i think she has it better too so john who does not watch sex in the city john recalls the weirwood grove where he took his vows while he remembers tasting egret's flesh for the first time and i thought this was an interesting passage just even standalone but a pot he tried to remind himself afterward i am playing a part i had to do it once to prove I'd abandoned my vows. I had to make her trust me. Yeah, this is what did it.

It never need happen again. He was still a man of the Night's Watch and a son of Eddard Stark. He had done what needed to be done, proved what needed to be proven. Who are you proving it to, buddy? He's proving he can go more than once in one night puberty regarding John saying

a part he tried to remind himself I am playing a part I'm gonna come back to Shakespeare once more where of course in As You'd Like It a character Jacques makes a famous speech. You have all probably heard the line, all the world's a stage and all the men and women

merely players. I'm not going to read the entire thing because it's multiple lines, but talks about how one man in his time plays many parts, his acts being seven ages. I thought that was interesting that was seven. It's not really exact for John because, you know, he's never been truly a schoolboy throwing that out there.

But John, of course, as we see, plays many different parts. We see that actually in many of the characters across A Song of Ice and Fire, as we talk about in our episode about identity over on Patreon, and also as we see as the books progress, right? The names of characters change to take on different roles. Yeah, it reminds me a lot of that speech that Peter gives Sansa Lane to when he says, you know,

every pawn has a move, even if they don't know what to do. You can make that move for them. That's what that reminds me of. All the worlds are staged. In the Game of Thrones, you win or die. Chess. Themes. What?

Themes. Themes are for 8th grade book reports. Oh god. Still mad? This is a weekly 8th grade book report so subscribe bitches. Puberty. Being 16. eighth grade book report so subscribe bitches puberty being 16 so john vows to himself it would never happen again we get this line that even eddard had stumbled in his faith to catalan you know him ever thinking of lord eddard his lord father he thinks though, as Vanessa was saying, the proving had been so sweet. And then

it happened twice more that night and once in the morning. Oh, I'm gonna be a teenager again. I know, I'm like, hmm. One and done, bitch, I'm asleep. Yep, that's it. Good for you. He's the one who got it, kid.

Goodnight. It falls off if you don't i hear so yep that is what i hear that is what torment said last time it just goes right back into so i guess good thing john's won't also someone else pointed this out before on reddit i don't remember who anymore but they did an analysis on the rose in the chink of ice in the wall smelling sweet and talked about how this concept of sweetness in the song of ice and fire is very much tied to ideas of death like for example they described like taiwan's body as smelling like sickly sweet like this weird terrible sweet odor and you see it also in how people say oh sweet sister with so much sarcasm so

it also kind of made me think I know you guys were comparing Ingrid and John to Leanna and Rhaegar and it made me think of Leanna's quote to Ned where she says love is sweet dearest Ned but it can't change a man's nature talking about Robert but it also made me

think about John and how he's so tied to duty and he's so honor bound that well this is like a nice diversion for him and he's really wrapped up in this moment with Egret and I think he does love her but it's kind of fleeting for him and no matter how good things are he's always got this in the back of his head that he has to go back to the watch he has to fulfill his duty he has to keep his oath and even things are, he's always got this in the back of his head that he has to go back to the watch. He has to fulfill his duty. He has to keep his oath. And even though I think his story will change somewhat when he is

resurrected in the books, I think he will be a somewhat different person. I think, I think his ultimately his story will come back to this where no matter what, you know, it's not going to change his nature, no matter what kind of relationships he enters into,

he's still going to be tied to that, that duty and that honor. And I think that's always going to be part of the story. there she's probably you know just some common sex worker that my dad bedded you know and he's so ashamed of it he won't even talk about her but then he dreams about her you know he dreams of her being highborn and kind and there's a lot of that in there there's a lot of him with that nature that stark nature that Liana nature Liana stood up for what was right right like Howland Reed was beat up by all these squires and assholes and and Liana stood there and was like, how dare you? That is my dad's man you're hitting. Like, get away from him. John, in the end, really is this amalgamation of, like, his mother and his father. Yeah, absolutely. And then we have everyone hearing them. I mean, John's gone from zero to 100 real quick. All right. He's gone from being a virgin to having public sex.

And so everyone hears them and they're watching and y'all's like, you'll be quick about it. And then there was a pail of ice water over them. That's just rude. It's very rude. John's like, like dogs, like,

wow, that's you're treating us like dogs. And there's this passage, this thought that he has and it really ties into what we were just talking about that love is sweet dearest ned line that liana line the whole concept of sweetness i am a man of the night's watch a small voice inside insisted but every night it seemed a little fainter and when egret kissed his ears or bit his neck he could not hear it at all was this how it was for my father he wondered was he as weak as i am when he dishonored himself in my mother's bed i think these lines are so interesting because any time that john thinks

about his father or his lord father or what his father would have done or what his mother was while it's all about ned and his honor and legacy and what he's brought these kids up on at the same time it almost always mirrors an exact rhaegar and lyanna parallel and john tends to frame egret through thoughts as ned and whoever his mother was but they really do reflect that Rhaegar and Lyanna and we hear it as early as a Game of Thrones in the very beginning you get chapter eight we get so many lines from chapter eight as we know and you have Lord Eddard Stark is my father I will not forget him no matter how many swords they give me I think that will come back later on when we finally get the Rhaegar and Lyanna reveal, you know, that I will not forget him no matter how many swords they give me. John VIII again,

he has that same line that you get this actually in John VII. I noticed this today. You might find this interesting, Eliana, that we actually have that. He heard a small voice whispering, he fathered a bastard. Where was the honor in that? He it in john 7 and i feel like i've never realized this before too it's really weird it's like a repeat line in the in game yeah did we not discuss that yeah really weird he thinks it two chapters in a row i didn't notice that till like today oh i didn't know it was in two chapters yeah i thought it was only in john 8 and then i was rereading john 7 and i was like, I'll be darned. But he thinks, and your mother, what of his duty to her?

He will not even say her name. We move on to A Storm of Swords, Jon V, where we'll eventually read, Many a night he lay with Ygritte warm beside him, wondering if his lord father had felt this confused about his mother, whoever she had been. Yeah, absolutely. Rhaegar was probably plenty confused about Lyanna in the beginning. We all know my stance on it is a little more middle ground, I think, than some of the fandoms. A lot of the fandom, yes. I agree Lyanna was very young and Rhaegar was older and a little predatory in this.

However, Lyanna also didn't want to be with Robert Baratheon. That's the other thing so i think she was just running to the next best to get her away from that on top of a bunch of political machinations with southern ambitions underneath like you know crowding liana as robert's queen just putting it out there um so storm of swords john six he has a line that we'll hear eventually he wondered if his father had been torn the same way when he left John's mother to return to Lady Catelyn. He was pledged to Lady Stark, and I am pledged to the Night's Watch. Rhaegar likely had to, you know, return to try to get to Elia, even though he did absolutely not enough jack shit.

And he should have left Lyanna's side earlier and stopped porking her, but whatever. And that's just my opinion, though. Don't worry about it. of jack shit and he should have left leon aside earlier and stopped porking her but whatever and that's just my opinion though don't worry about it could have left just a couple weeks earlier that's all i know i i kind of have i don't know if i have a really different take on it and i'm not certainly not excusing anything i heard it but the relationship that john has with egret and then i also think of um it also brings to mind to me Rob and Jane. And I'm thinking about how the women are the aggressors in the relationship. And it makes me think that, you know, it could have been that way with Rhaegar and Lyanna as well.

Because Rhaegar really didn't seem like the kind of, I mean, even Ned thinks he's not the kind of frequent brothels. He's not the kind that's like just going after women all the time and so i i almost think it's it might have been like a rob jane situation where she was the aggressor it happened he feels horrible and guilty about it and to save her honor they get married because i do think that they get married i don't think john's a bastard for real. So I just wonder if it was that kind of a situation for him. I think there's definitely a mashup of a lot of stuff happening

and I've mentioned before there's The Harrenhal Conspiracies is a really good read on Reddit. One of my favorite favorite series. So fucking good. So good. I actually was a little disappointed because I got the chance to chat with them on some of the work that I've done on some of my hair and Holly and Ashara stuff and just some different things. And they were just like, I used to believe what you believe, but now I don't at all. It's been two years. And I'm like, wow, jaded in the A-SWATH community. You know what I mean? I get that. I totally get it. But I'm like, oh, man, heroes, heroes are nothing but uh they're still really good essays and i think there's a good mash-up of like that and southern ambitions by stephan sase and i i think there's just a lot

of stuff that we're all on the brink of uh lady gwyn's liana and rhaegar theories also kind of ring closest to me night of the tree is like night of the laughing tree is obviously a big hint that something happened and i do think that rhaegar met her in the woods and there was obvious evidence she was in Night of the Laughing Tree and he had been sent to help go find the Night of the Laughing Tree and kill them for his father. And he was probably protecting her. And I think that's the biggest thing. I think he thought it was very brave because what Lyanna did was very bold and brave and

had courage. And I think that's where it set it off. because what Liana did was very bold and brave and had courage. And I think that's where it set it off. And the two of them on the run and, you know, a few harp strums in the ruins of Oldstones, you know, or Summerhall, either or, or both. A little progress and some pants off. You know, I'm just saying.

Just saying, I think shit happens on the road, you know, as we learn as Ygritte and john are in each other's skins and of course you get this line in a dance with dragons john ate to wrap it up where he thinks he's talking to stannis do i have your word that you will keep our princess closely the king had said and john had promised he would val is no princess though i told him that half a hundred times it was a feeble sort of ovation a sad rag wrapped around his wounded word his father would never have approved interesting comment of keeping the princess safe if you if you want to look at you know liana in a tower and liana as bragar's queen and some eventual or robert's queen you know just these ideas a tower and Liana as Rhaegar's queen and some eventual or Robert's

queen you know just these ideas of royalty and Jon thinking oh my father would have frowned against that with of a princess and blah blah blah and all that I just think it's an interesting play on words thinking of Jon's father and who raised him and his daddy is who raised him I mean you know that daddy maybe not his father i'm never gonna let that guardians of the galaxy no it's the only line that matters when it comes to john rhaegar and ned it actually is it somehow perfectly encompasses it even though it's from a different thing who needs the wins winner whatever we have guardians of the galaxy volume two same thing basically so egret keeps hammering on after this that Jon stole her, as we'll hear it once

more as we get into the caves later, the two caves. And no matter what interpretation you really subscribe to of Rhaegar and Lyanna, in some iteration, in some story, Rhaegar stole Lyanna, whether it's the romantic Bail the Bard story. If you don't think it was stealing, I redirect you to this language used by Ygritte. She says to Jon, like, you stole me. And Jon says, I didn't think I was stealing you. I didn't steal you. And she says, well, you did. And I think that irony is really interesting, especially when combined with, yeah, it's

Radio Westeros, who I think put forth the theory, but a lot of maybe other people people have as well of rhaegar being sent to kill the knight of the laughing tree thinking it's a man uh they gotta kill this man right but it also then reminds me once more of how john and egret came to be because corinne halfhand sent john to kill egret and then he's like this is not a man uh i don't i feel really weird about this and then also stealing her and to take it one step further if you remember when we talked about sansa stark the queen in the north everyone give her your respect for just a second anyways but if you recall her we talked about her for a while ago and we talked about snow white and the huntsman and the huntsman is sent to kill snow white and take her heart and bring it back to the queen to prove that she was dead in this scenario liana stark who gave birth to john snow would would be the Snow White, and Rhaegar would be the huntsman

sent to take her heart and bring it back to show Aerys, right? That, oh yes, I killed her father, here you go. So really just interesting story, and of course the fairy tale stuff lends into some Arthurian legends as well, with Guinevere and, I don't know, just some ideas. Just some thoughts. So are you saying two things one are you saying that Littlefinger stole Sansa

I want you to stop are you also saying that the Huntsman Samuel Tarly steals Jon Snow as a white I think that's what you're saying that's the episode

well thanks for coming on That's the episode. Well, thanks for coming on. I guess the episode's over. So Jon Snow's like Snow White. So Jon's gonna be a white? Is he gonna be like the new Night King? Like, okay. Oh my god, go get out.

You're fired now. You're both fired. I'm firing both of you. This is a double fire. The economy is booming at Girls Gone Canon. There are two job openings at Girls Gone Canon. Sorry, Vanessa, you can't get Girls Gone Canon

on a plane because you're only on one episode. Damn it. So the Magnair then asks for Jon and he makes the journey to him through the rock in the cave where the big bosses sit. Styr and Jarl have split command, and Styr is not terribly happy about that. Jarl gets treated like a good brother because he's Val's pet, and Val is obviously Val's sister, so he's got that close tie to Mance. So he's got that close tie to Mance.

And Stier had brought a huge army of fens, but Jon knows that Ural has his worth as well because he's done eight years of ranging and would be able to get them in over the ice. So Stier asked Jon to tell him everything he knows of the watch patrols, and Jon does. He does embellish a bit later on, but he says there are four men in each patrol. There are two builders on mules,

and they check for weak spots in the wall, and there are two rangers. And Stier says the mules are slow, but John comments that they're sure-footed on the ice. Stier says even they know the tale of Arson Iceaxe, which we get to know then. John recalls it. The man was halfway through digging a tunnel under the wall when rangers from the night fort caught him. They didn't't stop his digging but they sealed the entrance behind him john thinks dolores ed used to say if you pressed your ear flat to the wall you could still hear arson chipping away with his axe interesting donald noise says no to them sealing the gates during the battle later this book at castle black beneath castle black and bowen marsh

tells john to seal them during Adabra affectionately my favorite story here Adabra and John says no like deliberately says we're not gonna do that so knowing what we know about John hearing this story of Arsene Isaacs and hearing it again with the wildlings then his relationship to the wildlings he lets Tormund through obviously through a tunnel this changes affects john's opinion right he goes from thinking about arson isaacs as bad breaking through a side of the wall to later on he opens the borders and really deep down it's john not sealing his heart i mean you're not wrong.

I know. Open your heart, John. Also, tunnels. Ooh, tunnels. Do tunnels mean other things? Anyways, we're in the cave. Lewd, we're not in the cave yet. John is asked how many troops go out when, and he tells them because he's like, there's no use in lying, and is then asked how many men are stationed at each castle.

And he basically does the equivalent of adding a few inches. Appropriate. Okay. He just fudges a little. Yeah, he fudges the numbers. It's average. Seven inch. No. 500 at Castle Blurk. 200 at Shadow Tower. Perhaps 300 at Eastwatch. John added 300

men to the count. If only it were that easy. Oh man, take that. Ah! God damn it. Ha ha! Hard. Hard. Um, okay. Ah! heart heart um

and of course y'all are sort of like I don't think so definitely not I've seen this before especially because you know they saw the men that were likely killed at the fist like not John but John of course tells them

I'm no crow and won't be called a liar. Jon flexed the fingers of his sword hand. He's gotta tell. Stir says they'll know the truth of it soon enough though, and Jon is allowed to go. Jon bowed his head stiffly and went. If all the wildlings were like Stir, it would be easier to betray them.

The Fens were not like other free folk though. The Magnar claimed to be the last of the First Men and ruled with an iron hand. This little land of Then was a high mountain valley hidden amongst the northernmost peaks of the Frostfangs, surrounded by cave dwellers, horned footmen, giants, and the cannibal clans of the Ice Rivers. Ikrit said the Thens were savage fighters and that their Magnar was a god to them. Jon could believe that. Unlike Jarl and Harma in rattle shirts, Tyr commanded absolute obedience from his men, and that discipline was no doubt part of why Mance had chosen him to go over the wall. I think there's a lot of Fen culture and setup here for Jon when he makes his big political

match later on between Alys and Sigourn. The Fens think themselves lords more than the Free Folk tend to, so Jon feels like he can fool the Magnar more easily than he can fool people like Tormund and Ygritte. When Jon marries Alice and Sigourn later, he pays attention to how the Fens operate, and he sees that they appreciate laws and power and what this could do for them. They're proud their culture as john has learned their tongue their people their laws and their discipline and they embrace modern technology and warfare a lot more than the free folk and they have more to gain from a partnership with the seven kingdoms it's something interesting i will side note that i made a wonderful twitter thread the other day like i put in all. You know when you're just going in on a Twitter

thread, ladies? You guys know when you're just like, this is it. Yep. Going out for this thread. So I made Sansa Stark, the Queen in the North, first of her name, long may she reign. I made her Northern Council, and I actually put Alice Karstark as her

person in charge of diplomacy, her master of laws. I think that would be a perfect connection in the North, especially in kind of marrying the free folk and resettling that new gift, like we've talked about Sansa and Jon eventually doing, or maybe just Sansa doing what Ned had wanted in resettling that gift. Yeah. And regarding all of those similarities that the Fens have, right? It's kind of interesting in the context of this quote, first of all, that Jon thinks that's why Manta chosen them to go over the wall. It shows a little of what Corrin was saying about leadership.. But somehow it's, you know, in terms of their culture, you talked about the ways that they could probably easily assimilate. But he also sees the Thens as very cold and impersonable. And that's why Jon thinks that it'd be easier to betray them. interesting that they're the most like the Westerosi, but because they're different from the other Free Folk who are very

carefree, that makes Jon feel more unwelcome around them as opposed to the others. Yeah, I agree. I think Jon definitely has a bit of a rebellious streak. So when he's facing people like Ragnar and then Stannis and then maybe even Daenerys later on, who are all

pretty commanding and they really demand obedience from those who follow them i think he's going to have a difficult time working well with them um i mean obviously he will when he has to and he's pretty politically savvy i think but i don't think he enjoys it and so you know like like we talked earlier, if his fate really is ending up beyond the wall with the free folk, I think this is good foreshadowing of that because I think deep down he wants to be truly free. And I think that reflects in how he thinks about these different people.

I mean, later on in A Dance with Dragons, he has these thoughts when he's sending his friends away and when he's choosing who to command and when he's it's actually when he's going to sit at dinner you know his friends are like aren't you gonna come sit with us john come sit with us and he's like i can't and he thinks about how even ned had said you know you can love the men that you command but you cannot be their friends because one day you may have to bring them before you and judge them fairly and justly. And Jon doesn't enjoy wearing the Lord's face.

He doesn't enjoy heavy as the crown. If and when he is crowned king of the North, which is pretty much obviously likely at this point, he won't enjoy it. It's not going to be something he wanted. It's not for glory. Wearing a crown doesn't bring him glory. It's something that it's a very guilty, guilty pleasure that he could have Winterfell.

And we get a taste of that in his conversation with Stannis later in the story and in A Dance with Dragons. But it's not something he can bear. Be careful what you wish for kind of thing. Yes, absolutely. Yeah. of thing yes absolutely yeah it's interesting that you pointed out that he has that rebellious streak because on the flip side not in dance all the way going back to book one we do see john exhibiting very much of that at the night's watch he has a lot of issues with authority and that's why it's so convincing when john tells that one thing to mance of did you see where they

sat the bastard because as you're saying if like maybe the free folk is where he ends up there's less of that authority figure john doesn't get along very well with authority figures he learns to but yeah he never really enjoys it i don't think no he he doesn't enjoy politics at all i mean that's how's how Ned is too. You see that a lot in Ned. But Jon doesn't enjoy it. He does his duty because he has to. And that's the bigger part of this, that he wants to be real with these people. It's harder to betray Tormund and Ygritte because he craves that friendship he never was allowed to have. He was always held so far away.

You don't get to be their sibling, Jon Snow. You're the bastard. You don't get to be their sibling john snow you're the bastard you don't get to sit at the table you can be in the room and you can watch them eat but you don't get to sit there at the high table you're a bastard you can't fight princes but in the end when it turns out he's not a bastard and you know the fate of the world is on his shoulders he'll learn that he doesn't really belong there either he's the lone wolf yeah and that's really i mean all he doesn't really belong there either. He's the lone wolf. Yeah, and that's all he ever really wanted to do was belong. And so maybe that's what he'll get in the end. Yeah.

Yeah. Maybe part of him shrugging, or trying to shrug, that kingship is part of that rebellious streak of Jon's. Jon then heads back to where Ygritte had been. He finds her belongings, but not her. So then Grig the Goat, which is a great name, tells him that she took a torch and ran off that away. He follows along the cavern. He goes through stalactites and hears her laughing, booming off the walls, and he hears the sound of trickling water and comes to a waterfall where there is only Ygritte and a torch. She also had heard the sound of trickling water and comes to a waterfall where there is only egret and a torch

she also had heard the sound of water she wanted to see how deep the caverns went when john thinks it's a dead end she explains how these caverns traverse through all the hills and under the wall there are theories out there that these tunnels go through all of westeros maybe the entire tea of planetos and like under the red keep this is the thing that I believe a lot of people theorize that there's like weirwood roots as well that travel through all of Westeros and I think that's cool I don't know if there is I don't know if we'll find out but I'll subscribe to it why not the worldwide weir net exactly I mean hey I'm just putting out there Bran might not have been the Night King but they got the theory half right just saying this could be real too

oh just King oh I see got it I see he put the King and Night King not the Night part but maybe it'll happen at night I mean crazier things have happened I'm just saying Westeros could be a weird root yes he doesn't get to be a Knight

a Knight while I'm making puns yep Westeros could be a weird root. Yes, he doesn't get to be a knight. Also. A knight. While I'm making puns, you know. Yep. I hate you. So Ygritte shares another story of a king of the night beyond the wall. Just kidding. Just a king beyond the wall. And their encounter with the Starks, which were Gendel and Gorn,

who we've talked about a bit before in John 1 and 2. Both kings of the free folk who made it past the wall and their encounter with the Starks, which were Gendel and Gorn, who we've talked about a bit before in John 1 and 2, both kings of the Free Folk who made it past the wall only to face the Wolves of Winterfell. Gorn slew the king in the north, but in turn was slain by his son. And the sound of swords woke the crows in their castles, and they

rode out in all black to take the Free Folk in the rear. Oh, George. rear oh worth it so worth it john believes gendel died but egret explains gendel and his people escaped back into the tunnels but then they got lost she asks if john can hear them still. Ooh. Spooky. So here's an idea that I was thinking of because we were seeing a lot of how these songs and legends and stories like manifest in other characters or whatever through A Song of Ice and Fire. We talked about a couple different ways

throughout actually all of these John chapters in The Storm of Swords. Very musical book. Alright. But the story of Gendel and gorn i'm kind of wondering if it parallels bran and rob a little since you were talking about these kings like rob dies heading south as did gorn and bran secretly escapes as did gendel and the realm thinks that bran is dead just as they thought Gendal was dead but the other king because apparently this is the case right Bran slash Gendal is actually waiting beneath the

tunnels Gorn dies heading south Gendal is uh in the tunnels which does also remind me of Bael the Bard and a few of that too with the whole waiting beneath the tunnels all these songs all these stories that we said but there was that line in john 3 of chat mocking john calling him the bastard of winterfell and brother to kings and gilly later going is it true my lord are you brother to a king so just all this foreshadowing of kings is really nice behind it as well very interesting And we get this really spooky line afterwards. There's not to eat in the dark but flesh. Yeah, there's actually been a lot of imagery and language throughout this chapter. As you guys have been reading that I've been noticing that kind of tie consumption and sex, like that sexual appetite, but kind of starts making it almost weird and literal and uncanny

because it feels like a reference to cannibalism in Brands 3, especially because that's the direction that Dance and the other books seem to be going. Or is it just foreshadowing of him doing the Lord's kiss later? Oh. That's true. Eating. Eating out.

Sorry, guys. Vanessa,essa god put it in your pants speaking of sex so egret bites john's neck he nuzzles her back he tells her she reminds him of old nan pause telling bran a story unpause and they banter about her being older than he is like are you guys age playing this is this sex is this is this foreplay so she's all i'm wiser and you know nothing and then she shrugs off her vest which is made of rabbits which is symbolism of them having sex like rabbits and she disrobesrobes, and he's like, what you doing? And she's like, get naked, LOL, you.

And he's like, okay. And he gets naked, too. Yeah, this chapter is great with all of the sexual imagery and symbolism. Like, you know, the deep, dark caves and clefts in the rock, and Mance planned his thrust well. And then talking about the cave being a dark hole under an outthrust of wet stone. It's like, come on George. You're a little more obvious

though, don't you? I can't believe it. There was no horns though. There were only wide pink nipples with no horns at the tips. Usually there's horns. And I felt like in this plot it would behoove him to talk about horned things so

I'm disappointed I'd say it's a 5 out of 10 spiky nipples? like in Austin oh I don't know what was it Austin Powers where they have the nipple guns I think about them all the time

they're so powerful am I wrong? no Nipple guns? I think about them all the time. They're so powerful. Am I wrong? No. If you can make these things shoot, I mean, I would. That's true. For sure. Yeah, so as they think about nipples and nipple guns, Ygritte tells Jon that he knows nothing once more.

I know I want you you he heard himself say all his vows and all his honor forgotten she stood before him naked as her name day and he was as hard as the rock around them he had been in her half a hundred times by now but always beneath the furs with others all around them he had never seen how beautiful she was her legs were skinny but well muscled the hair the juncture of her thighs a brighter red than that on her head does that make it even luckier so he goes on he's giving her like this 10 things i love about you speech he's like i love the way this is and this this this and blah blah blah and then he's like i'm gonna kiss you on your vagina which in modern days some people might call third base and egret's like is this what lords do kiss their ladies down

there like leg flip fuck i wish shit girl you gotta pay extra for that um yeah but john was like no i just want you to be really pleasured which is nice and then the truth finally comes out they're like chatting and she's like wait was this your first time and he's like no and she's like and he's like yeah i'm a man of the night swatch dude he's like i'm a big fat virginie mcvirgin pants and she starts like make fun of him like really hard and i'm like egret it's not nice you're sheltered egret do you love the 10 things I hate about you? That's literally what it is, right? It was just like, I love the way your lips do this

and your hair does this and your face does this when you say this. That's it. That was a speech. I read the book. Yes. Oh, I was thinking about the movie. I do love that part in that movie. Same thing. I know. R.I.P. Heath Ledger. I do rewatch that movie frequently.

I know. I was a man of the night's watch. Was, he heard himself say. What was he now? He did not want to look at that. It gets raspy in there, just so you know. It hurts me to do it for you but i do it for you i'm sorry thank you thank you i love the way you do the john's voice for me

john then changes the topic he's like so i don't want to think about that let's just push that down in my feelings compartmentalize and he goes so what about you egret you're not a right and he's just like i really hope it wasn't long spear who banged you because i mean that's his name and also that'd be a major bummer because i kind of really like that dude i'm supposed to ask that john come on right it's it's uncouth it's unkind you know i love her rebuttal though it makes me think of aria and actually eventually danny because egret punches him and she's like that's vile would you bed your sister he's like long spears not your brother and she gives him this little speech he's of my village you know nothing Jon Snow a true man steals a woman from afar to strengthen the

clan women who bed brothers or fathers or clan kin offend the gods and are cursed with weak and sickly children even monsters gasp hashtag monster hashtag I worry about that child

I said that today to Emmett I was thinking of you I wonder that you worry about that child. I said that today to Emmett. I was thinking of you. I wonder. Did you worry about that child? Anyways, so I wonder if Jon's going to see Ygritte's face swim in his head when he knows finally about him and Dany's relationship, like about their familial ties. You know, I wonder if he's going to think about this because it's just such an interesting little passage

and we know they're going to probably pork at some point, you know. I'm just so glad he didn't go down the Jon Arya. interesting little passage and we know they're gonna probably pork at some point you know i'm just so glad he didn't go down the john aria route yuck anyway it's offensive it's honestly offensive yeah um and i think you know if he if that does come into his head with daenerys then anyone who's a johnson shipper should think about that for them too. Because, I mean, it's not a lot better. Sorry. Incest is very much that bad and taboo amongst the First Men. It's, of course, against the religious taboo for those who follow the Faith of the Seven,

but it very much is ingrained culturally amongst those who are of the First Men. And that's why it kind of leads to this practice of stealing amongst the free folk. As Ygritte says, right, you steal a woman from afar, and that's the strength in the clan, because in doing so, it kind of helps ascertain that it's a different family, and therefore not incest. Yeah, and I really like the line about even monsters. It kind of brings to mind, I mean, you think about the Targaryen babies that are born to form, like, wings

and scales, and they're considered to be monstrous, but also Craster's sons that he gives to the others, and if it turns out to be like in the show where they take the babies and they turn them into others, or wights, or whatever they do with them,

could that be talking about those babies being monsters in that way as well i think it has to be i think it's like known that and it can't just be craster obviously but it has to be huge free folklore of you know past wildlings that have survived via doing this and i do think that was a very canon thing the show got to pull out and reveal before george did i think it's i do think it's hinted enough that that's probably what's happening i guess so i'll give them that one that was a cool one to see live you know yeah i do think it's something that was canon as you said the show got to before that but as you're talking about the even monsters line and the targaryen babies

it's interesting because around this point in the books john is wondering right who he is if he's a man of the night's watch etc a little later in danny's storyline but it is kind of on the horizon she herself is wondering if she's a monster so that that's something that, you know, both these kids, teenagers, having their identity crisis. But way more serious than any identity crisis I guess I had as a kid, whatever. A little bit. Only a bit.

It was like Ice Zombies. Yeah, I was like in charge of what? Art club? Not entire nations or people's lives? Whatevs. It was a people, though. Still a people. Still a people.

I guess. Still a pilgrimage of paintbrushes we didn't we didn't have dragons or magical ice zombies to worry about either so that's true look the weight of the world was on our shoulders then it really feels that way you're when you're a teenager all right i'll throw that. Now I'm just like, what's responsibility? Fuck it. So Jon tries to object, and he's like, what about Craster? He's a monster. And Ygritte's like, he's more your kind than ours. He was born a crow.

She tells him a real man steals his woman the way you did. And Jon's like, I did not steal you, dude. She's like, yeah, you killed Aurel. You didn't murder me. Then I told you the story of Bael the Bard, and you didn't murder me then i told you the story of bail the bard and you didn't pluck me then but now you're inside me so it's safe to say i think you stole me buddy i just love that eager thinks that she was dropping major hints during this time and i'm like i i don't know i was there these were not obvious hints being like yeah you killed these guys or being like yeah let me tell you a cool story none of these were very obvious hints being like yeah you killed these guys or being like yeah let me tell you a cool

story none of these were very obvious hints on a more like serious note though i mean i i think it's funny that she keeps talking about this whole like stealing concept because the free folk women are very forward and aggressive but it's almost like they their culture isn't that forward thinking because they have to come up with this whole stealing story for why they get to have sex with someone it's like well it's still the man's fault like i have to do it because he stole me it's like they can't take ownership of their sexuality it's you know it's almost like they have to play it off like it's they're only doing it because a man is making them which is strange to me yeah it's it's still not free and you you glean some of that when she's telling john like yeah you'll be free and

then we'll kill you if you leave like it's it's not that much different and hopefully a uh a post whatever world they go to in the end if he's at the wall living in exile past the wall it'll be a little freer maybe because this isn't freedom and i mean they won't really have he's at the wall living in exile past the wall it'll be a little freer maybe because this isn't freedom and i mean they won't really have he'll be the leader if so or he'll be a leader of sorts or someone they look to for some guidance so hopefully it won't be yeah and it makes me think of taiwan as much as i hate to think of taiwan about how no man is truly free so the only children and fools think otherwise. So,

kind of sad. It's part of that social contract that they sign, you know, and even if they don't think that there is a social contract with the free folk, they're signing it in their blood every day. Yeah. And it's something that's running throughout A Song of Ice and Fire, right? Like, that idea of freedom, not just like societally, even though

as Mighty Isabel says, the patriarchy hurts everyone and that's what a song of ice and fire is about at a macro level but also if they can escape right what they think is their destiny in terms of what their family has laid out before them living up to all these things how free can you be when you're shackled by all of these memories and legacies? Anyway, so Jon's like, okay, sure, well, the torch is almost out, so we should go. But they decide to just, like, have more sex instead and don't go. I mean, typical teenagers. Good for them. You know, good for them.

By the time the torch burned out john snow no longer cared his guilt came back afterward but weaker than before if this is so wrong he wondered why did the gods make it feel so good oh my god so cheesy i love it it's like if it's so wrong i don't want to be right also miss opportunity for john snow longer cared anyways it's it's kind of really fun that all this is happening in the cave because here in the cave of course there's a double entendre as vanessa was saying earlier of you know vaginas but john can be more honest with himself in the cave but he's also still wrestling with his duty like he blurts out while he's here that he wants egret says i was a man of the night's watch and he gives into

his desires which is really apt because like as young jung thinks of the cave as a place where one encounters their unconscious i mean think luke skywalker in the cave and dagobah and how he confronts his own fear of like, oh god, it's me, invader's mask, which, side note, I'm pretty much convinced is the inspiration for that moment in Danny's fever dream in Game of Thrones, but I digress. Not actually making that one, I'm actually serious about. Descending into the cave, though, which is like hidden from the world, Jon has to confront his truth. And not only is it a place where he's encountering his unconscious, it's a place of a lot of conflicting ideas because the cave comes to be so many different things, like how Plato thinks of the cave as this confusion

of the real and the false, and that's very much what's happening to Jon here. Yeah, the cave very much so reminds me of the line from Eamon, for love is the bane of honor, the death of duty. That did not sound right to John, yet he said nothing. When you're in the cave, that's your death of duty. That's you embracing the love. And when John leaves the cave, that's him taking back and saying his honor and duty.

Leaving the wildlings is leaving the cave and going back saying his honor and duty leaving the wildlings is leaving the cave and going back to his honor and duty and those are just those huge themes that circulate through all of john's arc especially in these choices he's making in a storm of swords and i love the kind of symbolism of the cave and being with egret it's like it's escapism for him like he gets to forget for a while about all you know like like the weight of the world is on his shoulders like he gets to leave that all behind he gets to really be who he wants to be in that moment and i think we all can relate to that i mean we all have things that we do to escape from the realities of life you know it's hard you have responsibilities and things that we have to take

care of and sometimes you just want to get away from it all and not have to worry about it. And I think this is really his chance to do that. And it's very difficult to leave that and go back to the real world. And it makes me think of the line from that show that we talk about sometimes. Westworld? Yeah, it's a great show.

You know, watch it, watch it. I'll be talking a lot about that within the next few months. Anyway, but no, when Bran is with the Three-Eyed Raven and he's talking about it's beautiful under the sea, but if you stay too long, you might drown. And that really, that's what I think about

when I'm reading about Jon with a grittin's cave. It's like, it's beautiful and he wants to stay, but if he does, then he really is killing a part of himself. And I think ultimately he realizes that and that's why he decides to leave her. And I think that's a really good point that you were saying about how that's when he gets

to kind of finally be his true self, because not only is it about the cave, right? They're both naked. They take off all of their clothes and all the cave right they're both naked they take off all of their clothes and all the parts that they're playing and he's just as you said being his true self for just a bit i just had a question is that line from bran was that originally from or that did you say the three-eyed what is it raven in the show like says it or brand tells it to brand when he's having his visions like his flashbacks he basically tells him like you he pulls him out

because he's like you can't stay here too long is it it's season six episode two home yes when he goes back to winterfell and sees uh young ned and young benjamin young leona it's very sweet yep Yep. I'm fine. Is that a Patchface reference or anything like that? Eh! Because the language regarding staying under the sea and drowning? As Chloe says,

the show's not that deep. Thank you. Yeah, it ain't that deep, girls. I want to. You're right. I want to believe. I do. So you know what? For now, let's just be positive and optimistic and say it sounds like they were taking from it. Because they know it exists because of the Shireen song. And they played it during this last season

as underscore during the little scarred face girl that was in the crypt that had absolutely no payoff to Davos. Or Gillette. Anyways, so Jon and Ygritte splash around and wrestle in the dark. Vanessa! Vanessa's face was good there. I can't keep a straight face. Vanessa was just like,

yep. I mean, there were so many things that didn't have a payoff. I digress. Anyway. Yep. I just wanted to make sure we all remembered that that was there was no reason. It was just there. And it was a nice overture, though, and I like that. The show does not always pay its debts.

It is not a Lannister, but you'd think it would be, because those son of a guns. They wrestled and splashed in the dark, and then she was in his arms again, and it turned out they were not finished at all. Jon Snow, she told him when he'd spent his seat inside her. Don't move now, sweet. I like the feel of you in there. I do. Let's not go back to stir and yarl. Let's go down inside and join up with Gendel's children. I don't ever want to leave this cave, Jon Snow. Not ever.

She never wanted to leave. Never wanted to leave. Sorry. Very Jenny's song. It is. Sorry. Very Jenny's song. Very dancing with their ghosts because

she's gonna be dead in a little bit. It was very sad. I think that's a great connection though and that is something that we were totally gifted with in season 8 which is Jenny's song. When that happened I had my hand clasped over my mouth I was like tears

in my eyes everybody was checking on me too all my friends were messaging me like you okay you good buddy you alright cause I don't think you're alright right now and I'm like nope sure not alright not alright uh it was perfect the lyrics were really good they killed it both versions were great I actually like Podrick's a little more than uh

Florence Welch's same okay cool not okay I'm not alone I just think it's haunting and beautiful I actually like Podrick's a little more than Florence Welch's. Same! Okay, cool. I'm not alone. I just think it's haunting and beautiful, and maybe it's because of watching the montage. But that's a song that Rhaegar sings that Lyanna cries to, and Benjen, who, believe it or not, Benjen is the very first person to talk about honor and duty in the whole entire A Song of Ice and Fire series.

Isn't that interesting? He's the first person to literally mention them together. He talks about how the Night's Watch is a sworn brotherhood. We have no families. None of us will ever father sons. Our wife is duty. Our mistress is honor. Benjen knew, which is the take that we have on this podcast.

Benjen, capital B, knew, capital K. Read it in Weep Losers, he did. her uh benjen knew which is the take that we have on this podcast benjen capital b new capital k uh read it and weep losers he did i mean it's the official take he knew benjen knew there's no question it's it's funny that ingrid's line makes me think of jenny's song because uh what john what happens with john is almost an inverse of what happens with Jenny and Duncan, because he gives up his duty for his love for her. And John does the opposite. He gives up his love for Egret to do his duty. And they both end tragically, which is really sad. Yeah.

And I mean, in the end, all this love for for loss you have a lot of prophecy regarding some of these losses and if some of these echoes continue on into the end game we'll see it with Dany and Jon and you get all these other lines about honor and duty throughout the story like in A Game of Thrones Jon 6 you get a similar recap of what Benjen

said A man of the Night's Watch lives his life for the realm not for a king, nor a lord, nor the honor of his house or that house, neither for gold, nor glory, nor a woman's love, but for the realm and all the people in it. A man of the Night's Watch takes no wife and fathers, no sons. Our wife is duty, our mistress is honor, and you are the only sons we shall ever know. So that's during their vows in front of the godswood egret is really this step in john's journey that amen tells us about in john 8 it's the very first step it's his first you know the first egg you gotta break in that

omelet oh sorry it was all i had are we talking about eggs breaking eggs eggs they knew they must have no divided loyalties to weaken their resolve so they vowed they would have no wives nor children while eager is this step off the path for john off of these black stones so to speak uh on the way i think in the end it comes back to john not having divided loyalties whether it targaryen or Stark it won't weaken his resolve he takes no wife no children he kept his vows in the end of the story no matter what right something that bothers me a little bit with all of the discussion about love versus duty it's to me and maybe it's the romantic in me I don't know but I feel like if you don't love something then it's kind

of difficult to do your duty toward it like if your duty is to protect the realm and you don't give two shits about who in the realm or who's in it then how can you really do your best to protect it and although it's not like the most masterpiece of cinema i I think of Braveheart, where they talk about how a free man defending his home is more powerful than a conscripted army because it's your home, you love your home, you love your family. And so you're even stronger when you do your duty to protect that home and that family. And so I just find it interesting that we have so much of a dichotomy between love and duty in these books, when I think that it doesn't necessarily have to be one or the other. opposite from one another because as we said before

I think that the choice that Ned made, which was born out of love, in choosing to protect Jon, in choosing to keep Lyanna's secret, I think that there's an honor in that. I think there's absolutely an honor in him choosing to protect Sansa and Arya

because he thinks Arya's there but she's not as opposed to it being dishonorable but I guess maybe it's like that difference of personal honor versus societal honor but I do think that there's an honor in that and like you said like there's a duty involved in love as well and and that duty ought to is stronger as you said when love is involved in it yeah i definitely agree with that it's it's a rough place too because john is spending all this time being defined by other people as the bastard of winterfell the lord snow you know a crow he has all these names thrown at him and he's actually trying to find himself amidst it so this foray into egret dipping himself into okay all right let me have this

one eliana thank you had a very long day i'm happy his foray into egret is kind of just that he's trying to discover himself but he has that voice whispering in the back of his head the whole time you know he was you were wrong to love her, you were wrong to leave her, that comes up later. That's it. That's his little beating heart in his head telling him what to do or what's right and what's wrong. And yeah, it's just sad because John never really gets a chance, I feel like, to find himself for himself. And I think part of that difficulty is now that i think about it deeply maybe there are conflicting loves in there because as we saw in i think the previous chapter

or the one before that as john wonders who he is now part of how he thinks of his duty to the realm and the need to protect it is tied to there is a love but it's the love that he holds for the starks that he holds for his brothers he's like i would do anything to protect them if it came to it or something like that um i don't remember the exact line but we had discussed it what we're seeing is this conflict between the romantic and the familial love and that becomes this weird uncanny place especially later in john's story between the romantic and the familial love and that becomes this weird uncanny place especially later in John's story when the romantic and familial love

is the same because you're banging your aunt but those chapters are gonna be interesting whenever we get them do you think we're gonna learn about Dani's nipples at length? literally? we already have haven't we? like in her chapters

but at length oh at length, literally. We already have, haven't we? Like, in her chapters. But at length. I get it. Yeah. Oh, at length because horns? Yeah, because George describes women's nipples as like giant fucking eraser heads.

Only some of them. Yeah, he never talks about them as being innies, you know? Sometimes that happens when it's cold. In general, sometimes it happens. You know, like, inverts. I'm just saying. Come on, George. Sometimes I get irritated.? Sometimes that happens when it's cold. In general, sometimes it happens, you know? Like, inverts. I'm just saying. Come on, George.

Sometimes I get irritated. That's why I think it's really weird. Talk about the chafing. Talk about the chafing. Also, like, talk about how John's loins are probably so greasy from, like, sweat in, like, the furs. Like, uh, and they've just been banging in the furs

before the cave bath man gross yeah just the layers of grime in there oh and i forgot to mention so i really think he grit reciprocated at the end of the chapter because she talks about do it again with your mouth the lord's kiss and i could see if you liked it any does that mean that she she doesn't to him which anyway that's a tale for another cave apparently well it it's a good thing that well it's kind of all right because they're at this cave with the pool so i think they showered and by showered i mean bathed it's just hygiene is really important for sure

yeah I mean but maybe they're into that they're role playing as old Nan and that didn't make it better nope it's worse thanks Eliana so hygiene thank you for coming to our public service

announcement guys please wear your deodorant and wash yourself especially if you're going in some caves spelunking wow don't go spelunking in your cave without washing yourself

that's my PSA practice safe sex they should have stayed in that cave. They really should have. In that cave. I'm really sad because it's like the story doesn't change every time I read it. I know

what's gonna happen. Yeah. I mean, I loved Ygritte. Like, when I saw her on the screen, when I read her in the books, and this was actually the first death that hit me super hard. Like, I mean, obviously, like, Ned shocked me. I saw it on screen first, right, before I read it in the books, and other things, I guess, happened, but this is the one that, like, hit me the hardest. Yeah, same. Ygritte was the one that, that was my favorite character.

That was what got me into Game of Thrones. the one that that was my favorite character that was what got me into game of thrones when i watched it for the first time i got to season two and i put down the show at the end of season two and said i'm getting the books i've read the books up to like season three i'm at season three i finished a storm of swords before season three came out and i was just devastated i was, what are you saying? What? No. No. No! She's such a great character. I really do love her. I've always thought it'd be fun to cosplay her, but it always ends up

I'm somewhere hot and I don't want to go around in fur. It was my first Game of Thrones cosplay was her in Michigan. I was in Michigan at the time, so you can do that there. Even at Halloween, it's like 75 degrees here. So, yeah, it doesn't matter.

I getcha, I getcha. Yeah, it was in November, so it was actually, like, perfect for outdoors. It was wonderful, but that was 2013, my first Game of Thrones costume I ever did. I was so excited. I was like, Ygritte's my favorite character. And she died. That's kind of par for. I was so excited. I was like, Ygritte's my favorite character. And she died. It's kind of par for the course

for these books. I'll never trust again. You could cosplay her in the cave. I just can never trust. Yeah, that's true. We'll always have the memories, though. Maybe maybe yep we'll always have the memories though maybe maybe you know along the way the the caves we made along that anyways what the hell no

i don't know i'm just sad really sad yesterday i got really in my feels i was listening to my egret playlist on the way home and uh i realized there's a cover on there of woman's work and it's like this acoustic male cover and i was like oh god this is about egret how did they know yeah i know that you have a different pairing for the song but for me i think of samson by by regina specter that's a song that I associate with Ygritte and John. I respect it. That's all I'll say about it. I respect

your pairing. He told me that my hair is red. Something about Wonder Bread. He took me back to his bed, gave me a slice of Wonder Bread. John singing You Were My Sweetest Apple. I do love Regina Spector. It is is a good tragic song of Ace and Fire Honestly it should be on every playlist

Every single one And he loved her first And as you know my ultimate John and Ygritte track Is Say Something Oh yeah it is Anywhere I Would Have Followed You Oh god have you seen the video for that song Because I bawl my eyes out

every time i watch it every time i actually haven't i haven't seen it yet very sad it's very sad oh you gotta watch it tonight thanks for telling me everyone okay i'll tell you all and i'll like tell you all guys i'm crying now oh my god okay Well. I guess that wraps us up on John 3, ladies. What do you think? I'm just sad now. Yeah. I'm gonna go drown my feelings in some wine. Yup. They should have stayed in that cave.

Holy shit. They should have. Vanessa, you have been a delight to have on tonight. Thank you so much for coming on with us. Thank you guys for having me on. It was such a pleasure and I've been looking forward to it all week and so just really exciting to be on here. Awesome. Hey, tell everyone again where they can find you, best places to look, anything you want to shout out. Sure. Well, you can always catch me at watchersonthelaw.com. I'll be covering news about the prequel that's coming out. We'll be delving into news about the prequel

on our podcast, The Knight's Cast. We'll also be going into some book stuff too over the next few months. So definitely check us out over there. And you can also just follow me on Twitter at vkcoleartist. I do have Patreon now for my art. It's vkcoleart

on Patreon. Feel free to check me out over there. I've got some really fun benefits for my patrons and I'll be adding more in the future yeah you just posted well I saw it a couple days early which is a perk if you sign up to be one of Vanessa's patrons I highly recommend it but

I got to get my eyes on first a wonderful Queen of the North portrait beautifully done of Queen Sansa I of her name. I thought she might like that one. Yeah, I felt like there was some pandering going on. I wasn't going to say anything about it. But yeah, it's my pinned tweet

so if you want to go over to Twitter it's right there at the top and I am particularly proud of that one. Yeah, it's gorgeous and also are you doing a giveaway for that or Or the print on the Knightscast? The Knightscast tends to do some giveaways of

Vanessa's art as well. We just did a calendar giveaway, but I'm sure we'll be doing more, and that might be one of them at some point. Yeah, and I know you're selling a bunch of your really nice pieces of art from the past couple years. Over at your Twitter, you were tweeting about it. I believe you

wanted it to go for at least $100. Hit you a DM at your Twitter account, but they are beautiful. They're like a bajillion pieces in this lot of just gorgeous art, and my favorite one is the Sansa and Arya and the Crypts piece. That's my favorite one. I like that one a lot too.

Yeah, I have been hoarding all of these original drawings, and I would much prefer someone put them on display somewhere and I'm running out of room. So find me on Twitter. internets. As always, if you want to subscribe to us on social media, you can find us at Twitter. It's at Girls Gone Canon. C-A-N-O-N. You can also send us a message there or even an

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about that for no reasons obviously so check it out patreon.com slash girlsgonecanon. Yep. You gotta play us out. Really? You can't just be like weirded out? We did it once and it was weird. I mean, we can do it. No, it's fine. We can do it if you want.

As always, I have been one of your hosts, Chloe. You can find me on the internet at LiesInArbor or liesinarborgold.com. And I have been the other of your hosts aliana somewhere on the internet have you though thanks guys