Girls Gone Canon Cast - ASOIAF Episode 61 - ASOS Jon VI

Episode Date: August 2, 2019

There's no place like home - especially when you have arrows in your leg.  Jon returns to his brothers (the ones he still can return to) and is burdened with guilt at betraying Ygritte.  --- Eliana's twitter: https://twitter.com/arhythmetric   Eliana's reddit account: https://www.reddit.com/user/glass_table_girl Eliana's blog: https://themanyfacedblog.wordpress.com/ Chloe's twitter: https://twitter.com/liesandarbor Chloe's blog: www.liesandarborgold.com

Hello and welcome to episode 61 of Girls Gone Canon, John 6 in a Storm of Swords. I am one of your hosts, Chloe. You might know me from my blog, LiesInArborGold.com, or on Twitter or Tumblr as LiesInArbor. I am another one of your hosts, Eliana, and you might know me as GlassTableGirl on Reddit, on the Mason Monthly Podcast, maybe as Arithmetric over on Twitter.

Thank you, everyone, for joining us again this week to talk about Jaune. We have some emails and tweets and notes. Once more. Yes, on Patreon, actually, one of our friends Michael Yane commented on our episode from last week, episode 60, Jaune 4 and 5.

Listen to the episode today. The part about the wall being made of blood reminds me of the Red Keep. It is another monstrosity, as described by Catelyn, that has a legacy of death. I love that, and I also love thinking about Harrenhal as well, as another one of these sacrificial, big, magical buildings. Yeah, I think that's, I like that a lot too. It reminds me about the idea, like, does the Red Keep warrant destruction?

Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't, but there's certainly a kind of symbolism behind it if that's what happens in the books as it did in the show and that legacy of death and blood that bolsters the targaryen reign and i think that's interesting that you tied it to harrenhal kind of makes me wonder how many of the other architectural feats that we see throughout westeros are bought and made with blood and brought down with fire and blood oh snap oh snap we are on it today we are just like wow boom bam we're just jumping right into it everyone this is john boom one one chapter this week because we have a lot of things that have come out this week for all of you. For example, if you are subscribed to us over on Patreon for $5 and up, subscribers get an episode on Northern Independence, which just came out this past Sunday.

An emotional episode at times, even. We talk a lot about the current state of the North in the books. We don't tread too much into Jon and Sansa territory, but we do talk a lot about Robb Stark's campaign, about the Kings of Winter and in the North of Old. Lots of talk about Ned, Cregan, and characters like Torrin Stark. And we even talk a little bit about some actual parallels with real world politics, like Scotland's independence and independence wars of old. So check that out if you want on patreon.com slash girls gone canon.

$1 and up gets perks, $5 and up gets special episodes and other perks. And we are talking about reformatting that in the future, especially with the addition of our new series that just came out this week, His Dark Materials, The Golden Compass. Or Northern Lights, depending on where in this world that you live. Both of them are the name for the same book. Publishers just decided they were going to do what they were going to do. But both of them are book one of the His Dark Materials series.

And we are super excited to kick that off. I'm getting really excited as a first time reader. Getting through this book has been really fun so far. Yes, we are covering The Golden Compass slash Northern Lights. Part of the way this read through is going is Chloe's going through it the first time. Not everyone has read the series. So I'm not going to tell you too much about what happens in those chapters because not everyone has as they follow along with this one. It's very different from, from of course the tone that we're taking with this a song of ice and fire reread because this is dark materials read is only a reread for some of us but not all of us

yeah it is going to be focused since it's written a little differently it is going to be focused on its main point of view character which is ly Lyra. We watch Lyra, obviously. That's our constant camera is on her and her surroundings. And she is a badass heroine. There are a few other good moments that are not with her, and they're kind of like off-screen moments that we get to witness. But I'm excited about it. I'm excited about the show in the fall, too.

We'll definitely be bringing some coverage on that. So stay tuned for more information. Playing that by ear as they haven't announced yet. I hope you enjoy this week's episode. We're excited. We're a little nervous. It's new. It's fun.

We're just excited to bring a new story to you guys and chat about it and get in there and go canon with it. Yes. I'm excited to revisit it. I've been having fun talking to people about things as you reread it. But let's get back to this reread. We have a lightning round for all of you.

Yes. Daenerys IV. With the help of some sellswords, Daenerys takes Yunkai and walks through a crowd shouting Jar Jar Binks impressions. Eliana wrote these, you guys. Usually, look, we're gonna let you in on a trade secret. Usually I write the lightning round for us so that we can just get through it and get to the good stuff.

And, you know, we trade off and Eliana does some other stuff, some trade secrets here. And Eliana wrote these this week and I didn't read them. I wanted it to be organic because she never reads mine. Yeah. So Eliana just put a Jar Jar Binks in this overview. Yeah, that's the joy. In my opinion, part of the joy of doing the lightning round

is discovering what nonsense you put in. And so I have put nonsense in here for you. Feeling attacked. That's what I love about it. Aria ate Darkheart Bloodchild and other ominous words from the ghost of Highheart. Aria is then kidnapped by a dog.

Also, they talk about Ashara Dane in this chapter. Air horns. Bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bow bowow bowow bowow bowow bowow bowow bowow bowow bowow bowowowowowowowowowowowowowowowowowowowowowowowowowowowowowowowowowowowowowowowowowowowowowowowowowowowowowowowowowowowowowowowowowowowowowow ear horns did somebody say a sharding comes crashing into the room uh jamie six jamie lives his dream of performing a live action version of the bear

and the maiden fair damn i get all the ones that like you would have wanted for this should have done this differently yeah we fucked up sorry everyone uh Catlin5, Rob does a lot of stuff. Like writing a will, sending people to different places, like

Mage Mormont and Galbert Glover to meet with Howland Reed. Who? Hoomst. Hoomst? I don't know a Howland Reed. I don't know a Howland Reed. Samwell 3.

In a lone hut, Sam the Slayer protects a mother and child with the help of birds and a pair of cold hands. Aria 9. And finally, we have Aria 9. A hound tells a young she-wolf about the time he saved a pretty bird. Oh, I didn't know

you shipped Sansan. That's so nice. That's what that is. You're a shipper now. Is that how ships are made? Everyone, also, if you would like to see some other ships that I've built, nobody knows this, and I'm going to announce it. It's also not true.

I'm lying right now, but I'm going to tell you all. What if I were the special guest for a Nauticast episode about important relationships, particularly just ships, in Stannis' storyline? For example, Stannis shipped with Sansa. Also, Stannis shipped with both Sansa and Jon. Also, Stannis shipped with Mance. Also, of course, the classic stand a ship to Davos. These are ideas. So, John VI. In overview on the chapter, John has returned to the wall. Returned to the family that he has left after he hears of his brothers being slain.

And his injury has him pretty down as the wildlings are on the move toward castle black yes fuck you're welcome john has pushed the horse and himself to their limits trying to reach the wall before the magnar and twice he actually found himself going in the wrong direction kind of meta right because him first going north north with corin he felt like he was going in the wrong direction and then him and the wildlings were going in the wrong direction but here he is going home he made it he also keeps reopening his wound in this passage like he's talking about how his wound keeps reopening every time he gets on a horse so to me that like is kind of like almost almost a little fourth wall breaking like he's reopening his old wound he's getting back on the horse but he keeps reopening

his old wound he doesn't want it to start healing and he like be fucked up forever without proper treatment you know and like infections so he just keeps getting it cut open i mean everyone a first of all in westeros needs therapy. But B, you pointing this out, I think, is really interesting because that's what we see happens in Jon's storyline. Basically, from this point in the books onwards, he just keeps reopening those old wounds of his and he's unable to forgive himself for many things.

And then as Jon heads to the wall, he wonders how many of his friends actually survived the trek on the other side of it and then and then he reopens this old wound and remembers egret he remembered the smell of her the warmth of her body and the look on her face as she slit the old man's throat you were wrong to love her a voice whispered you were wrong to leave her a different voice insisted he wondered if his father had been torn in the same way when he'd left john's mother to return to lady catalan he was pledged to lady stark and i am pledged to the night's watch this works on two levels for john uh i like to compare this to his father figure, you know, and this works for Rhaegar and Ned.

This works for Rhaegar leaving Lyanna in the tower and Ned inferring her into the crypts. You were wrong to love her. You were wrong to leave her. Ned taking those bones back to Winterfell. And, I mean, Rhaegar leaving and doing his duty to go back to end the fight and save Elia and the kids. Yeah, I mean, I absolutely agree. I'm over here putting up streamers and setting off air horns and

t-shirts slash confetti cannons because this is, in fact, a cannon take. It's also going to foreshadow his future relationship. I mean, it's kind of sad. Yeah, for sure. Bittersweet.

And strange. Finding you can change. Learning you were wrong. Just as John makes it to Molestown, though, he kind of almost realizes very late that he's like, oh, I'm in Molestown because, of course, a lot of it is underground. And then there he just orders people.

He's like, I need a new horse and saddle and bridle and then at the same time he's also warning the town we have to evacuate the wildlings are coming please make your way to castle black before they get here he's wearing his sheepskin here though right so he arrives at castle black and his sheepskin so why would molestown just give him a horse and let him through? Would they just know because he had the look of a Stark and they'd seen him on the way up? I just think it's awful presumptuous. I don't know. I think it's partially the way he carried himself. I don't know if they saw the cloak under it, but it reminds me of in one of the earlier instances when we meet Joffrey, he's like, I'm just gonna go to this random person's house and order them to give me shit.

And maybe that's the way that Jon does it here because they say in the chapter he just, like, orders people and tells them, yo, I need this stuff. But, I mean, it's an emergency right now, so... It is. And one thing that I think is really telling of john's character and just his personality is that even though he's technically a deserter in the eyes of basically anyone that sees him john put the small folk in mole's town first he put the people of the north

first when he knew an attack was coming yes yes he didn't think to forget it and he not only that he opened up castle black to welcome them i don't know if he has the right to do that or not but regardless castle black also needs all the help it can get my people they were afraid oh one of the best lines in the whole series my that's like my take i can't wait to be mad at rob then when he parallels theon yep absolutely or not parallels his interaction with theon no one is defending this side of the wall as john makes his way back and i really love this really dreamy star riddled description that we get as Jean's making his way back home. As the stars began to fade in the eastern sky, the wall appeared before him, rising above the trees and the morning mists.

Moonlight glimmered pale against the ice. He urged the gelding on, followed the muddy, slick road until he saw the stone towers and timbered halls of Castle Black huddled like broken toys beneath the great cliff of ice. By then the wall glowed pink and purple in the first light of the dawn. So pretty. It's just beautiful writing. Good job, George. Just great prose. It's very much so that language we talked about in the North and the pictures of dawn and what dawn is and what it brings and whether it's, you know, some Dane metaphorical symbolism or whether it's the long night symbolism. It's just really pretty. And the North's magic is very visible all around them. kind of notes during this that no lights are on in any of the towers

including the Lord Commander's tower and he starts to kind of worry but then he notices smoke from the armory and that's what makes him realize someone is there yeah I also agree it's some great imagery and I know I'm going to sound like a broken

record but I'm going to just talk about it again of how in this moment we're cementing again how much more difficult this fight against the wildlings is going to be. Because Jon's just straight up riding up to Castle Black. There's nothing in between where he's come from and Castle Black that's stopping him, despite definitely looking like a turn cloak and that basically being you know a warrant on his head he's marked for death in the north but that just goes to show even more how completely unprepared for a wildling invasion they are from either side of the wall and then when john finally gets inside

castle black the first one to greet him. Thankfully, he gets a warm welcome, more or less, from Donald Noy, who then is like, yeah, what happened to your face? Yeah, Jon explains he was attacked by a skin changer. And I liked this reunion. It was very warm. You know, Jon hasn't had very many warm interactions besides Ygritte, haha, in the last little bit of time and it's just refreshing to hear it's the first time john has gotten to feel like he was home in a while it's the closest thing he has to home especially with winterfell as he's about to find out burnt and i really liked this part of this passage despite fever exhaustion his leg the magnar

the old man egret mance despite it all john smiled it was good to be back good to see noy with his big belly and pinned up sleeve his jaw bristling with black stubble yeah absolutely as you said there's that home feeling and he has that anxiety towards the beginning of this chapter and it comes back again later because home isn't just you know a place Donald Noy makes it feel like home for him and he's hoping that all of his friends and the old bear are gonna be there that they're gonna survive because that's part of what makes Castle Black home to him and then Donald Noy is like so it's really interesting that you're here because the rumor says that you deserted to Mance.

Because actually we had scouts, German Buckwell scouts saw you riding with the wildlings in a sheepskin cloak. His relationship to John is quite curious here, especially when you think about his relationship to Stannis and Renly and Robert, the Baratheons, you know, in his past work, especially with the later relationship we get between Jon and Stannis. I just find it such an interesting connection in how Donald Noy deals with him. I like that he really points out Jon's sheepskin cloak. As you pointed out last episode, it's literally a wolf in a sheepskin cloak. And I've been thinking about how the wildlings right now are the big bad wolf

and the Night's Watch are the three little pigs. And the big bad wolves are about to huff and puff and blow the wall down. That's interesting. Now it kind of makes me wonder if there will be a wolf thing going on with bringing the wall down, but probably not. It's the horn.

And like, in a way, the horn itself, you got to huff and you got to puff into it. There you go. That's the connection. I'll huff and I'll puff and I'll blow your wall down with the horn. Yep. And we've kind of taken John's time with the Wildlings for granted, like in terms of how covert this mission was going to be. Because turns out everyone's like oh dude everyone like

knows that john was with the wildlings because this guy saw them and i mean this was always a risk he kind of knew that but that it isn't brought up to now it like of course throws a wrench into his and corin's plans and we're gonna definitely see that come to the forefront of the politics at the wall later on well and it's like robert says to ned you can never lie for love nor honor uh john wouldn't obviously lie to them he's telling them the truth about corin and a lot of the people there aren't going to believe him at the wall but right now there's danger at the door so it's really not the most significant thing and his desertion in a way kind of parallels ned's treasons right and if john's final act is remembered as queen slaying as the hbo hit show game of thrones has

pointed out his treason you know what he goes down for in the annals what everyone says you know everyone says ned committed treason he schemed to steal the throne and he admitted it on the Sept of Baelor and he died to save children. And if Jon's last crime is lying like this to the realm, doing it for the realm, basically. It's just interesting the parallels there because his desertion will be looked at by some as such a crime. And I think there's an element of it too in terms of that connection between truth and power because a lot of it comes down to what you're saying like who people are going to believe who they have more faith in and that has to do with like who they like more but also what they want to believe what stories they want to tell themselves about what goes on.

It's much like, as you said, Ned's treason, but I think we're going to see something similar with a lot of things. Like you said, the Queensling, but maybe in terms of Jon's parentage. They can be like, wait, they kind of talked about it in the hit HBO TV show Game of Thrones just a little bit, where Daenerys is like wait I'm sorry so you found out that you were Targaryen from your best friend who hates me and your brother who

who is your family but not your brother like doesn't this seem weird to you and then they're just like whatever her first thing she said to him was like not actually your brother then yeah but she was just like wait this these are the people that you found out from she's like doesn't that seem suspicious he's like i don't know they're just telling me i don't know nothing he's like whatever i'm not gonna do anything about it but yeah i mean

not dug into as deeply but i think that's something that we'll see in john's storyline again and he's not the only person that has that uh king or queen slaying vibe and we're gonna actually talk about this person this episode as well jamie lannister we have a couple ideas of him coming up so look out for that first though the garrison has been playing into mance's hands into his plan they've been spreading themselves too thin uh they have harma dogs had his raiding here and other wildling leaders are raiding in different places mance is attacking and spreading them out. Jon is trying to explain to them, you need more men here to defend the gate, but Noi notices

Jon is wounded and with fever. Yeah. He's not doing too hot right now. And there are actually many characters that Jon shares characteristics with, of course, in A Song of Ice and Fire. We've talked about a couple of them throughout this.

And, of course in a song of ice and fire we've talked about a couple of them throughout this and of course there's significance behind his hand being injured a lot of people discuss that but i think it's interesting maybe a little poetic here that john's leg is also injured and then he's like i don't want to take milk of the poppy they're like you got to take milk of the poppy dude you're like having a real rough time and they're using it to bring his fever down because he has a fever and then has a couple of fever dreams because that's something else that ties him to his daddy if not necessarily his biological father as he wrestles through this painful leg injury and trying to do the right thing despite dealing with that pain yeah there's this line in this chapter john had bitten his lip in his struggles. He could taste blood mingled with the thick chalky potion.

It was all he could do not to wretch it back up. And then there's also a line in Eddard 9 when he first gets his leg crushed. There was a moment of blinding pain and the taste of blood in his mouth. And again, Jamie Lannister tastes blood in his mouth as well when his wound's getting cauterized. We'll come back to that in a bit.

Just some great parallels for these injuries and these characters who all have fever dreams and all take this milk of the poppy. Trippy. Yeah. Coming back to matters at the wall, there's 120 wildlings that are south of it. So last we checked, when Jon climbed over the wall, there were like, I don't know, a couple of them.

But now there's 120 wildlings south of the wall. And compared to that, there's only 40 people right now at Castle Black. And only few of them are good for fighting. A lot of them are really old, or they haven't been trained at all or they're injured so he's like fuck there's 120 south of the wall and then there's all the other ones on the other side and right now the person who's in command is sir winton stout he's not a strong leader anymore yeah he like i don't know fell asleep in his porch or something he he served up the wall and the night's watch very well for 80 years but that's not great in a situation where they're like dude we gotta like fight

so basically donald noy is effectively in charge and john's like all right all right that's not bad that's okay and it says a lot that like Noi believes what Jon says to him immediately after coming from like being suspected of being a turncloak about following like Corrin's orders that he puts some faith into what Jon's

saying and then Corrin and then Donald gives Jon all this information about the wall right away without questioning or doubting him like who he's he's going to give it to. Granted, John's also probably delirious in pain and fever right now, but whatever. But in and of itself, it's a testament to the trust and respect that Donald Noy holds for John. directly into Mance's hand this whole time. And Jon was like, Jon has a little bit of know-how for once, right? Of how to help the men manning the wall. I think it shows growth for him as a military commander as we move forward into the Battle of the Dawn and even a Dance with Dragons and the stuff coming up with Stannis, his ability to stand on his own. He also really has to pull back to the Ned stuff, knowing your men. While it isn't

always friendly and feasting with them, like with Bowen Marsh, Jon learns to know what each of his men will do, which is a big lesson he later covers when he deals with Jano's slint. However, he fails it later on with the rest of his men, right? Thinking that they would be okay with what he does. Just like in Arya 2 in A Game of Thrones, her father used to say a lord needed to eat with his men if he hoped to keep them. Know the men who follow you, she heard him tell Robb once, and let them know you. Don't ask your men to die for a stranger. But something we see in A Dance with Dragons, he tells himself he can no longer sit with his friends at dinner because he has to be

their boss now all of this is echoed in his thoughts on winston stout and noi and him analyzing their chances against the oncoming free folk while you know fever dreaming it out it's kind of it's kind of sad as we see the way that john's relationship ends up deteriorating with a bunch of his men, despite knowing all of them. But speaking of people who should be at Castle Black and manning it and all that stuff, there's a particular character, I'm going to call him a character, who hasn't made it back to the wall yet, and that's Ghost. Ghost still isn't here, he learns, and he's just like, oh, just like oh okay and i over here internally i'm just like the screaming face emoji

ghost well you're not the only screaming face emoji john's about to be one as well he lays down god damn it and he's waiting for maester amen you like that segue yes he's waiting for maester amen and the ravens are yelling snow and he's like god damn it sam i can't believe you fucking taught them to do this i thought that was great and i'm like no it's really just blood raven and brand they do it anyways like smart ass um so amen treats john's wounds and john tells him what he knows or what he learned and then he learns himself that jr mormont lc the old bear was murdered by their own men mutineers men of the watch that forsake their vows and killed their

own brother the words hurt more than his own fingers hurt you know one father figure a book i think that's a great great balance you know it's a great balance to just kill one a book I mean the next one doesn't die right and dance yeah it doesn't die and dance but so it's not per book it's like a

book and a half every John becomes the daddy figure honestly wow I mean look at Satin John dies he's the father figure and he dies there you go mind blown wow damn all right john becomes the daddy yeah he doesn't i mean kill the boy and let the daddy be born he takes on that role of doing judgment especially as as lord commander of the night's watch wow damn the Damn. The father. Of us all. But not a father, because he will father no bastards. The daddy, the Holy Spirit.

Well, he fathered Satan, and Satan's a bastard. Oh, damn. Wow. Wow. Amazing. The way this chapter is constructed, though, like, I mean, like, yeah, coming back to those father figures a little, it really is hurtful for Jon

to learn all of that because at the beginning of this chapter we're thinking about who john wants to have seen survive the attack on the fist of the first one because obviously he doesn't know about the mutiny at crassers yet and the first person that he thinks of is like i hope that the old bear made it he's also thinking about that because throughout the past few chapters when he's pondering his return to the wall he's like man i really don't want to disappoint jr mormont and so hearing that jr mormont didn't make it and also that he's never gonna see him again is just another gut punch when he didn't get to see ned again either like he definitely thought he's gonna

see both of them one more time he And he's like, well, fuck. John remembered the old bear as he'd last seen him, standing before his tent with his raven on his arm, croaking for corn. Mormont gone. He had feared it ever since he'd seen the aftermath of Battle on the Fist, yet it was no less a blow. Who was it? Who turned on him? Garth of Oldtown,

Olo Lophand, Dirk. Thieves, cowards, and killers, the lot of them. We should have seen it coming. The watch is not what it was. Too few honest men to keep the rogues in line. Donald Noy turned the maester's blades in the fire. A dozen true men

made it back. Dolor's Ed, Giant, your friend the Oryx. We had the tale from them. I like that call out of the thieves, cowards, and killers, the lot of them. We'll get into this a lot more when we someday hit Sam and of course Catelyn. Catelyn's last chapter specifically and some of the stuff in Game of Thrones and Clash of Kings. When you think of the first mention of guest right, you usually think of Clash of Kings. You have Daenerys and Qarth, the twins visits, the manse, the crasters keep.

But in a Game of Thrones, we see Robb greet Tyrion with his sword on his lap, offering hostility towards Tyrion, right? The twist is the frays are open with giving guest right, but then they break it. Just like Raster extends it and he revokes it, but the mutineers kill pretty much everyone. Which is also a violation of guest right, right? This is kind of a two-way street. Like, I shouldn't really be killing my host. And part of it is because, of course, guest right is not just fucking cute and shit. It's like it's it's wars have been started over it yeah it's a necessary tacit understanding between the lords and and others in westeros not just the lords because

it's necessary if you're ever going to be able to not just start wars just to stop them there needs to be there needs to be some assurance of safety if anyone's gonna like sign a treaty or make an agreement or something john is amazed that only a dozen men of the 200 made it back in that bowen marsh is now in charge i. Until, like, they make a choosing. They do a vote. Very democratic, the Night's Watch. John thinks it's either going to end up being Cotter Pike or Dennis Malister. The commanders of the Shadow Tower and East Watch were good men, but very different. Sir Dennis, courtly and cautious, as chivalrous as he was elderly.

Pike, younger, bastard-born, rough-tongued and bold to a fault. sir dennis courtly and cautious as chivalrous as he was elderly pike younger bastard born rough-tongued and bold to a fault worse the two men despised each other which of course the balusters and the ironborn also hate each other so it makes sense i do like that pike is almost described almost similarly to john there he's youngerborn, and bold to a fault. That's true. It's interesting. I wonder if that paints his feelings on Pike. Yeah, it is interesting. And coming back to what you were saying

about John knowing his people as he knows Bowen Marsh, it's interesting the way that he looks at this, because his assessment of the political situation actually turns out to be exactly right. Because, yes, the election does end up being between cotter pike and dennis malister and then wait secret third party candidate but whatever we'll get to that later john like doesn't really enjoy politics and obviously he struggles with being in a leadership position as we're

gonna see in the next book but that he understands that these are probably going to be the two candidates shows that he understands how power flows. So it's kind of cool that we're seeing this setup in these chapters before we get to the choosing, you know, before everything that happens. Jon is forced to drink milk of the poppy for his pain and to bring the fever down. He explains the Magnar of then to noi and amen and noi is confused for a moment the magnars lord on skagos noi said there were skagosans at east watch when i first came to the wall i remember hearing them talk of him john was using the word in its older sense i think mr amen said. Eamon said. Not as a family name,

but as a title. It derives from the old tongue. It means lord, John agreed. Stere is the magnar of some place called Den in the far north of the Frostfangs. Oh my god, you made him sound like a Muppet! That's amazing! Did I? Yes, but I love it.

I don't know, I don't know. I think I could have done it better, but I'm just not sure. No, I'm very just not sure no i'm very pleased with it i'm very pleased with it thank you that was a double hitter right there so amon has always really known john's heart even in a game of thrones right when he says to him it's always hurt it will always hurt the choosing uh he knows john's heart and i think it's really cool that he notes what Jon has learned of the Old Language. I think that kind of paints the picture that Aemon already knows. He knows what Jon learned and what he did when he was north of there. I think Aemon understands the truth of this desertion.

From what we've learned from Corrin Halfhand, the wise ones amongst the night's watch do right they understand like oh john understands their culture because he respects them as people and they understand that like on the other side of the wall they're just people trying to fucking live too and it's not exactly foreshadowing but we are being introduced to skagos in this book which helps in terms of that world building and makes it seem less jarring later on when we learn that Rickon has allegedly been taken to Skagos. Oh, that's true. It's a

nice little harvest that George is yielding there that he planted. Here's Skagos, and now it's becoming important. It really sets that stage for A Dance with Dragons. And all the thematics of that cannibalism, heart tree, sacrifice-y stuff that's coming up. So good stage setting.

Good job, George. I'm glad it grew. I'm glad it was prosperous. John explains that Mance never found the Horn of Winter. Eamon ponders that Mance believes in such an ancient legend. That reminds me of Lewin a little bit. Oh, Lewin, I miss you. But also, like, you come from dragon

family. Like, you literally have dreams about seeing dragons again. Shut up, Eamon. Yeah, that's true. And he's all like, fuck! I wish someone had told me about the hor- not the horn- about the dragons later on. But yeah, I don't know. I guess it's

one of those, like, seeing is believing things. And the way that word has come back and people have seen the dragons later on but yeah i don't know i guess it's one of those like seeing is believing things and the way that word has come back and people have seen the dragons it makes him believe again maybe i don't know or maybe it has to do with you know you're talking about lewin but maybe it has to do with coming back to that idea of believing what's true and what's not it has to do with what people want to believe exists. Yeah. Because obviously Mance. He's repressed a lot too. Aemon. Yeah. Like obviously Aemon wants the dragons to exist.

They're a big part of his family. And like, he's like, fuck, if we had only had dragons, maybe like the rest of my family wouldn't have died. Whereas for Mance, obviously he wants to believe that the horn of winter exists. Yeah. To save his people. Exactly. to believe that the horn of winter exists yeah to save his people exactly when john explains all the wildlings believe in the horn he starts to talk about egret believing it who is egret donald oh i know it pointedly who is egret donald noy asked pointedly a woman of the free folk

how could he explain egret to them she's warm and smart and funny and she can kiss a man or slit his throat she's with steer but she's not she's young only a girl in truth wild but she she killed an old man for building a fire his tongue felt thick and clumsy the milk of the poppy was clouding his wits. I broke my vows with her. I never meant to, but it was wrong. Wrong to love her. Wrong to leave her. I wasn't strong enough. The half-hand commanded me. Ride with them. Watch. I must not balk. Aye. His head felt as if it were packed with wet wool. I do love this passage, and it shows how well John feels he has come to know Ygritte, like how to explain Ygritte. There's so much depth to her that he feels he can never make them understand who she is to him.

But it almost- suddenly I have a question based on the way he's acting here. based on the way he's acting here did they feed him milk of the poppy not just for his fever but to try and get the truth of his of his loyalties out of him that wouldn't surprise me maybe because now like donald noy's like grilling him who's secret that's interesting i wonder um i don't know we probably wouldn't get the answer probably not maybe if we just pay attention to this more but i really don't i don't know i don't think we'll get an answer i don't think it's like a truth but it would make sense in the way that mance was grilling him and trying to get him to answer things that's what it reminds me of yeah yeah i that's a similar thing going on there i mean they have to drug him for his leg no matter what so that's true it could be a little of both like they're like all right he's in this position and therefore we can use it yeah it's such a haunting refrain never should have loved

her should have never left her it's it's honestly the saddest especially i i wonder if i thought it was like as sad when i first read this i think think I was just like, damn. Yeah, John. But then after she dies and you reread this, you're like, damn John, especially with the dream. We're going to talk about it in a little bit. It's like the guilt is just like excessive.

And I don't know. He really feels like he deserves those arrows shot in him at this point. You know, he feels awful. I would understand. I mean, it's like when you make plans with someone and you say you're gonna do it but at the same time in your heart of hearts

you've known since the day you said yes that you were not going to this event right like you knew you knew it wasn't gonna happen and then you bail like the day of like that's what this is but worse yeah but a lot worse and like there was some blood involved and some death yeah i mean i'm just saying this is like you knew from the first day you said yes to going to this party i'm gonna throw this out there i think growing up life advice for everyone as i've gotten older i've just gotten better at not having to say yes to things that i don't want to go to i'm the worst at it and i think but also like sometimes i just don't know how i really feel until the day of which that's kind of how john felt he didn't

really know how he actually felt until the day of until the day he was asked to kill this old man i mean yeah he was like maybe i don't want to do this true and i mean i think that's absolutely the case i but there's a there is a difference between knowing you're never going to go to an event and thinking and truly believing that you might until the day comes and then of course like you said there are those events where you're like i don't know i can go either way but also those are events that usually they usually matter like a little less, right? I don't know. Like, because like, everyone understands. Even the people on the other side, maybe, like,

that might not be a thing. Or it's like, I don't know, a Facebook event. Maybe we took the metaphor too far. I just wanted to give everyone the life advice of be true to yourself, and if you don't want to go to something, don't put yourself in the position and be up front with everyone. Do it for yourself.

Self-care. Yeah, like John with the Night's Watch. Don't do anything that John does. John does not understand self-care. Oh my god. He really doesn't. There's this line in that passage she's warm and smart and funny and she can kiss a man or slit his throat it reminds me of danny uh there's another line that follows

it she's young only a girl in truth wild but she she killed an old man for building a fire he's gonna have a lot of ethical quandaries at the things Dany's gonna do, right? I think this is definitely some shading at the future for him. I'm sure that he's gonna have some more ethical quandaries to face. Yeah, absolutely, because

I mean, he's defining Ygritte through all these contradictory things to show that complexity in her, how to explain her and that's absolutely the case with danny she has a lot of contradictions within her and that's what makes her such a compelling character as well you were wrong to love her you were wrong to leave her you were wrong to love her you were probably wrong to kill her but yeah but you know that's a whole nother tale yeah it's probably

gonna go a little differently I hope I mean it'll probably mostly go like that but like yeah it's gonna be like that but like detailed hashtag subtle nuance did Eamon then cuts into Jon

with a hot knife and Jon thinks that he will not scream I love the line but he broke that vow as well Eamon then cuts into Jon with a hot knife, and Jon thinks that he will not scream. I love the line, but he broke that vow as well. Noteworthy, another man that has broken some vows, Aerhorns, had to have his wound cauterized as well in this same book. With a bowl and a sharp blade, Qyburn cleaned the stump while Jaime gulped down Strongline, spilling it all over himself in the process.

His left hand did not seem to know how to find his mouth, but there was something to be said for that. The smell of wine and his sodden beard helped disguise the stench of pus. Nothing helped when the time came to pare away the rotten flesh. Jamie did scream then and pounded his table with his good fist over and over and over again. He screamed again when Qyburn poured boiling wine over what remained of his stump. Despite all his vows and all his fears, he lost consciousness for a time when he woke the maester sewing at his

arm with needle and catgut. What is this? Hold on. Hold on. It must be like literally. I gotta look it up. We can't not. I left a flap of skin to fold back over your wrist. You have done this before, muttered Jamie weakly. He could taste blood in his mouth where he'd bitten his tongue.

So all those little things we talked about with the Ned and Jon similarities, as far as the fever dream, the blood in the mouth, the breaking of vows and the breaking of promises in Ned's case. And of course the screaming at the, at the wound. They're all right with each other. Good parallels. Yeah. I think that it's, it's interesting that you're bringing that to the forefront because that is a lot of what this book is about since, you know, Rob breaks his v vows too but he probably would have been better off just losing his hand uh

also break your vow and you get stabbed apparently or shot with an arrow i found out what cat gut is all right okay according to wikipedia cat gut is a type of cord that is prepared from the natural fiber found in the walls of animal intestines. Cat gut makers usually use sheep or goat intestines, but occasionally use the intestines of cattle, hogs, horses, mules, or donkeys. Despite the name, cat gut manufacturers do not use cat intestines. So it's probably like an abbreviation of cattle gut as opposed to necessarily actually cat gut basically yeah yeah uh they people use them apparently in violin strings which is interesting so animal byproduct yum yeah i mean i guess it makes sense in like a surgical setting since like no no it does it does make sense too

because you gotta use all parts of the animal yeah apparently it was also just like less expensive and easier to obtain so yeah and I guess it's an organic material like as opposed to I don't know something else maybe like just goes with the flesh better who knows

yeah I mean it's not getting used for much else yeah cat gut the pain was so huge he felt small and weak and helpless inside it a child whimpering in the dark egret he thought when the stench of burning flesh was in his nose and his own shriek echoing in his ears egret i had to for half a heartbeat the agony started to ebb but then the iron touched him once again and he fainted so there's that great little passing out in consciousness that goes on when cauterizing those wounds i mean shit seems rough dude

it's interesting they didn't give him like a rod to bite down on that happens sometimes and things so you don't like a rag yes you don't bite off your tongue in pain or whatever or in like to help clench john dreams as he is fainted that egret is holding him with gentle hands and then as he wakes his leg is still burning but good news pip and gren ron and hermione are in the wing the hospital wing after madame pomfrey just closed the curtain and walked away yes they are here and thankfully filch is not oh my god mrs norris is not afoot yeah mrs norris is not here dumbledore just died, though. Oh, fuck. That's true. That is what happened. So what we're trying to say is Pip and Gren are here, but not with Bowen.

Thank God, no Snape. And then Gren gives a rundown on who made it back. He says, Giant, Dolar's Ed, Sweet Donald Hill, Omer, Left Hand Lou, Garth Greyfeather, four or five more. Me. And then John asks after Sam and then Grenz

looks away and says that, well, I saw Sam stab another with dragonglass and then we all called him Sam the Slayer afterwards. Hmm. But then you left him because he curled up with the old bear's body you were wrong to love him you were wrong to leave him cred that's basically what john is yelling about he's so mad at them inside he's just like screaming how could you leave him there and Pip pipes up and he's like Sam could still be alive and surprise everyone and we're like duh I mean true I mean Sam is full of surprises that's what I love about him he is a wizard yeah he's my favorite little wizard John tries to get

up and he screams in more pain Eamon tells tells him, you need to lay down and heal. And John's like, I don't think there's time for that. Has anyone sent word to Winterfell and O to the king about this attack? And they're like, bad news, tiger. Winterfell, uh, kind of burned down. Your brother's dead. Theon killed him. Fucking dead.

And he burned Winterfell, allegedly, quote unquote, which then was saved by the brave Boltons. If you watch the hit HBO TV show Game of Thrones, you'll know that the Boltons avenged the Red Wedding. Ramsay Bolton specifically killed Roose, killed Walda,

killed the baby, killed Walda, killed the baby which actually avenges Rob and Talisa and their child, unborn Ned yeah if you really think about it it's an exact parallel you know, you got a Frey, you got a Bolton this is

what we wanted, we wanted the red bedding avenged and we got it yeah thanks for the good show analysis, Chloe. Thank you, Chloe. Thank you, Chloe. Thank you, Ramsey Bolton. Thank you. Everybody say thank you, Ramsey Bolton.

My favorite is when people think that you're being serious. I know. I mean, not that you're not. think that you're being serious i know i mean not that you never learn not that you're not yeah no i'm being serious but like no one ever learns yeah if everyone would just accept it uh isn't this one of the first times we learn about the i'm being alive i'm not sure like they kind of say like that this happened they don't say that he died i guess it's more confirmed in the next chapter when ruse is telling catelyn like oh by the way uh ramsay has theon we've captured him john had never liked theon grayjoy but he had been their father's ward another spasm of pain

twisted up his leg and the next he knew he was flat on his back again there's some mistake he insisted at queen's crown i saw a dire wolf a gray dire wolf gray it knew me if bran was dead could some part of him live on in his wolf yes or i lived within his eagle yes the answer is like the biggest foreshadowing about Jon's death, right? Like, have we all just talked about this? That Jon has to ward into ghost or I quit the series? So, if I'm not mistaken, the dance prologue wasn't the one that was originally written, right?

Because Feast and Dance used to be one book. I believe that the Old town one that we get in feast is the prologue that we actually that george actually wrote for like whatever that one book was going to be called which was going to actually be called the dance with dragons all right uh before it was split so it's interesting that like we have this line here, and then what George chose to expand and, like, dig into is that, like, whole second life thing through Varamyr. Anyway. Drink this!

Grand Heller come to his lips. John drank. His head was full of wolves and eagles. The sound of his brother's laughter. The faces above him began to blur and fade. They can't be dead. Theon would never do that. And Winterfell, grey, granite, oak and iron, crows wheeling around the towers, steam rising off the hot pools in the godswood, the stone kings sitting on their thrones. How could Winterfell be gone? When the dreams took him, he found himself back home once

more, splashing in the hot pools beneath a huge white weirwood that had his father's face. Ygritte was with him, laughing at him, shedding her skins till she was naked as her name day, trying to kiss him, but he couldn't, not with his father watching. He was the blood of Winterfell, a man of the Night's Watch. I will not father a bastard, he told her. I will not. I will not. You know nothing, Jon Snow. She whispered, her skin dissolving in the hot water, the flesh beneath sloughing off her bones until only skull and skeleton remained and the pool bubbled thick and red oh boy that was a dream huh yeah sometimes my dreams are this wild i'm gonna be real dude i don't know if i have dreams like that i don't dream a lot anymore but sometimes once in a while but not crazy like that that was nuts and like that was that was a guilt dream right there that was a milk of the poppy guilt dream i don't know why my dreams are weird is it milk of the pop it's not i don't

know what's wrong with me and it's not guilt they're just like really wild wild shit happens do you eat before bed that could be it i don't know i don't usually i don't usually but maybe it is too close i don't know i don't know wow lots of guilt usually, but maybe it is too close. I don't know. I don't know. Wow. Lots of guilt in there. It's hard to remember, since this is a reread, that she's not dead yet. So it's like, this is direct foreshadowing. We're all, like, getting ready for her to die.

We're all just like, it's coming. If I let go now, it won't be that bad. That's true. You know. That's true. That's what I did with HBO's hit show, Game of Thrones, and that's why it's season 8. You know, as we said, during the season, season 8 can't hurt me anymore. No, no one can hurt me. You know what?

The chains are free, the shackle's off. Yeah. Right back to that theme of bastard-y. Jon does not want to father a bastard that's uh obviously prominent in this guilt dream and he sees his dad's face watching him his daddy's face watching him oh he was the blood of winterfell a man of the night's watch i love that the stark kids use winterfell as their strength and john is a stark too you're a stark and a targaryen john and you can embrace the best parts of that we'll let you so you can embrace winterfell and sansa thinks it she's the blood

of winterfell aria thinks you know she's a dire wolf of winterfell all the time i love that strength they take from the castle from home oh it is their home so i'm gonna come back to John and Theon's relationship here again for a second because it seems like John kind of he doesn't necessarily like respect Theon but he's like I never liked him but he was our ward like I didn't have to I guess he wasn't really part of our family

is I think some of the subtext of what he's thinking there but he's also I think there's a part of him that's projecting onto Theon because there's a part of Jon, I think, that knows that if anyone understands what Theon Greyjoy felt like, it's him being an outsider in Winterfell because he's like, Theon would never do that. It's interesting that of anyone, Jon's the one who thinks Theon would never do that. Theon did.

He didn't kill his brothers. What he did wasn't great, but you're kind of half right, Jon. Yeah, I'm like, at the same time, he did kill someone. Yeah.

But no, no, I agree like it's still you know he tried to choose the best route out of a bad situation and failed uh but he chose a route it was better than the other option i suppose and it is interesting that john immediately sticks up for him i mean of all the people that feel left out of all the people that are basically bastards in winterfell's court. It is those two. And it's incredulous to think that home is gone, especially those tall granite walls. Like he says, it's iron and oak, it's granite.

Like you can't, what could hurt Winterfell? This is the first stage of the grief, grief process. Jon's here in denial. And like, yeah, with the, i was thinking about this i think throughout this week of both john and theon come to a crossroads and we talked about like that a little in the last chapter but theon chooses to kill those two miller's boys there are technically no one but like that's a bad act and he chooses to do that and go forward as a way of trying to prove loyalty to his family. And then when John's asked to prove his loyalty to the wildlings, he doesn't.

He chooses not to kill this unnamed old man. Someone else does it, it still happens happens but the fact that he chose not to is meaningful and so i think he's projecting yeah some of that onto theon i think theon and john's identity issues are what ring the most through that right like john is running to the identity that he can have he's trying to take any identity he can have he really like embodies that i am a man of the night's watch because he's never been allowed to be a person he's always been a snow he's never been a stark yeah and now the men of the night's watch is the place to shed that

identity so he's running to shed that identity while theon is running to also find the identity that accepts him but he only wants one trying to shed that wolf skin yes yeah they're like both it's they're like intersecting like because john's trying to shed that sheepskin and that's why he doesn't believe that the end would do it because he doesn't want to believe that the end would betray winterfell because Jon is there trying to tell everyone and himself I did not betray the Night's Watch. Watch. Especially because this is the second

betrayal that we're hearing in this chapter because earlier he's hearing about this mutiny at Craster's Keep. So now everyone's fucking on guard. Who's gonna fucking mess things up next right yeah who's gonna believe you also so he's like i can't believe this of dion because otherwise

what if people believe that of me yeah absolutely absolutely yeah you know it does go back to that other person that we've been chatting about jamie Lannister, the Kingslayer, and he has a fever dream on Milk of the Poppy, much like this fever dream and much like Ned's. A lot of similarities as Brienne in it has Ygritte and Jon's and Brienne

and Jaime's. Ned Stark is judging them both in their dreams. He comes to judge Jaime. He judges Jon in the But He Couldn't, not with his father watching. And they both have these injuries. Not only does Jon have his leg, but he has his hand flex. And Jaime now has a phantom hand flex. He no longer can do that flexing of the hand.

And of course, there are the different parts of the dream passage. I swore an oath to keep him safe, she said to Rhaegar's shade. I swore a holy oath. We all swore oaths, Ser Arthur Dayne said so sadly. And then Jaime feels his phantom hand. He feels his hand in his dream again. I felt the strength in my fingers and the rough leather of my sword's grip, my hand. And then there's that later passage. The moonlight glimmered pale upon the stump where Jamie had

rested his head. The moss covered it so thickly he had not noticed before, but now he saw that the wood was white. It made him think of Winterfell and Ned Stark's heart tree. It was not him, he thought. It was never him. But the stump was dead and so was Stark and so were all the others. Prince Rhaegar and Ser Arthur and the children and Aerys. Aerys is most dead of all.

Do you believe in ghosts, Maester? He asked Qyburn. Yes, that's really interesting that Jaime thinks of Ned as the one judging him there. And it comes back to like this point that you're talking about regarding guilt. It's funny that people turn to Ned when they think, I feel real guilty. Because, and they're always like, I feel guilty because Ned Stark's judging me and He's the guiltiest of them all he well i don't think he should feel guilty of the thing that he did but granted we don't really know what he did i guess exactly but whatever but he does he also feels so much guilt it's something that goes throughout all of his chapters and they it follows john john's gonna be haunted by guilt now soon but it's funny that for other characters ned takes that role because

i'm gonna get freudian for a second we have ned kind of set up as a moral compass in that first book as we've discussed before and thus he kind of becomes this like super ego to all these other characters in like that freudian sense coming through as the old gods and thus imposing this idea of morality. And here for John, he's imposing that morality regarding bastardy and not fathering one. And that's like how Jamie has those vows too, that he can't father any children, even though he has. But it's like a nice parallel of, you know, he has fathered bastards compared to john

in this moment yeah he's broken vows fathered bastards because like at the same time jamie was disillusioned right like he gave up he's like fuck this fuck these vows same as in many ways like theon gave up he's like i can't win right yeah it's all set against you. And, but Theon still tried to win in a different way, and he's like, I'll win by any means necessary, and Jaime's like, I'm just not gonna fucking play anymore. Whereas

Jon's- And Jon's just trying to do the right thing. Yeah, Jon's in here, he's like, I know that I messed up, which is a very Ned thing to do, right? That's why people dislike Ned within the story, because they see him as this moral paragon, and they're like, how can you be that when you fathered a bastard? which is a very Ned thing to do, right? That's why people dislike Ned within the story because they see him as this moral paragon and they're like, how can you be that

when you fathered a bastard? And that's the point. Ned still tries to do the right thing even though he's messed up. So. Yeah. Yes. Wow.

We're coming so far right now and I'm just, it's emotional. I really feel for John. He's going through a lot right now. Yeah, not only is he going through all these things, he's also 16 and all of his hormones are where they are. And he's just learning right now that he can feel more than two things at once, as depicted in the award winning movie, Inside Out. It's dangerous. It's dangerous. in the award-winning movie Inside Out. It's dangerous. It's dangerous. That's actually like a real thing though

if I'm not mistaken. It is. No, it is. You're correct. I also come back to there's a line that I can't even find the tweet right now but my partner and I quoted to each other all the time from the YA novel

satirical Twitter account. And it basically says that. They're like, how could someone feel two things at once? Oh, youth fiction. Young adult fiction is so good. It is. So good. Everyone.

I hope you guys enjoyed this chapter. This was a chapter. I know it's short. I know it's briefer this week, but quick, easy listening. You likely have one or two other podcasts of ours to get through this week. Maybe a backlog built up. So enjoy it while you can. Breeze

on through. We're going to get really going into the battle at Castle Black in the near future. We'll going to get really going into the battle at Castle Black in the near future. We'll also be taking a break soon. It is summer, and so we are doing you know, some summer things. And the week of

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She's really getting into those John voices. Yes, thank you for all your support. Those made me really happy today. Today I did the doubleheader, Aiman and John. You did. Yeah, I felt good. It's a lot of work.

So thank you guys for supporting me as i try to come into my own voice world heliana's not the only star bitches that's why i make you do john all the time it's so great i get so much joy from it every single time i know you do i do it for you guys i do thank you all right as always catch me on the internet. Lies in Arbor. Lies in Arbor gold.com. I'm Chloe. And as always, you can cash me outside. I'm Eliana. How about that?

How about that? Bye, guys.