Girls Gone Canon Cast - ASOIAF Episode 63 - ASOS Jon VIII/IX

Episode Date: August 23, 2019

The Magnar was only the beginning. Jon must defend the Wall against a turtle. --- Eliana's twitter: https://twitter.com/arhythmetric   Eliana's reddit account: https://www.reddit.com/user/glass_table_girl Eliana's blog: https://themanyfacedblog.wordpress.com/ Chloe's twitter: https://twitter.com/liesandarbor Chloe's blog: www.liesandarborgold.com 

Hello and welcome to Girls Gone Canon, A Song of Ice and Fire, Episode 63, John 8 and 9, in a Storm of Swords. I am one of your hosts, Chloe. You probably know me from the internet as at Liza and Arbor, or on my blog, lizanarborgold.com. And I am another one of your hosts, Eliana. You might know me as GlassTableGirl over on Reddit or the Maester Monthly Podcast. Maybe you know me as Arithmetric over on Twitter. Maybe not. But...

You should. No, you shouldn't. I... What did I... I retweeted today this great tweet of a dog swooshing its ears and someone had added helicopter sounds to it, and I think that was the highlight of my day. But... It's it. And I think that was the highlight of my day.

But... It's okay. Yesterday, it was that TikTok cat video that I sent you that I was like, this is me now. Oh, that one was amazing. But do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do. And the cat flips. And the flipping part, when the cat had the hands and the...

And it was good. If you haven't seen it, look it up. I'm not going to tell you how. I rewatched it so many times just to understand what was happening in regards to that flip it was really important to me and mr sammy i briefly considered getting a tiktok and then i was like i don't know if i'm young enough for a tiktok account you're far too old i truly am it's illegal for us to get tiktok accounts until the police show up at your door someday i'll make an actual like law book of our laws that's one of the laws in arbor gold laws in arbor gold is that my lawyer i think it should be

uh you guys we have decided that it is time to tell you what Patreon episode we are choosing to do this month. Because we have decided what Patreon episode we are doing this month. I think we are feeling bereft after all of the Dance of the Dragons, you know? It was very, uh, it was a burning subject,

no pun intended. It left us going, what now? What now? But we figured it out. Eliana, what is it? Tell me. So we went to our Patreon and we asked people, what would you like to hear us do an episode about? And a couple people gave some really great suggestions.

And some of the other ones are coming down the pipeline. What was that? Did you say the Sansa Stark one? We did an entire series already. And? I don't understand what the problem is. That one was tempting. There was another one that we are interested in,

but I'm going to hold that in my pocket for now for us to announce for maybe next month. Is it about the horses? No, someone did a Reddit post about that, and I don't know what I would say about the horses other than, like, go look at this Reddit post that explains everything, because it turns out I don't actually know that much.

So, of course, this one can't be the horse one. It can't be about Sansa's Queen in the North, which you said some of these are coming down the pipeline, so I think this could be it. But is it mentors? Are we doing mentors? We are doing mentors. And mentorship, how it manifests throughout A Song of Ice and Fire, we'll be analyzing it from the lens of a couple of different characters, both young and old. it from the lens of a couple of different characters,

both young and old, and we thought it dovetailed nicely together with us doing all these Jon chapters right now. Yeah. And we're gonna see a lot of things about mentorship in this chapter and the one after as well of the

men that are shaping him. The guys that are shaping him. The guys that are shaping him over at Castillo Negro. And along with our Patreon episode, we also have something else coming out before the end of this month. Our His Dark

Materials episode? Yes. Do you like how excited I'm getting? These are all happening? I am very excited that you're excited. Yes getting these are all happening I am very excited that you're excited yes these are all happening because we are great at planning so His Dark Materials episode 2 will be out at the end

of the month we are going to be covering chapters 4 through 6 in Northern Lights the Golden Compass whatever you want to call it that is going to be from part 1 yes it is still going to be from part one yes it is still going to be from the part one of the first book but we are you know maybe we'll do these more than once a month is what we're thinking maybe we're like yeah super into this series right now um

i'm gonna i'm gonna be really honest with you guys we're doing this with me not reading them before now and that statement is a true statement i have not read them before now however at the time of this recording i may or may not almost be done with the subtle knife which is the second book and is so good i can't put it down and someone interrupted me on the bus and i was really mad so you guys read these books they're really good yeah it's a it's a very different style than george obviously it's not so lavicious when it comes to like the food you don't get pages of that you don't get you know like her dress billowed in the wind because the silk which happened to be of this pedigree but you do get some of that you get it in spurts and you also get some of this just really i don't know really sharp writing really deep there's stuff that's happening that i

am smacking myself right now because i'm like oh my god it was right there and i just ignored it i drove right by it so i'm yeah i'm really i'm really excited for the third one i gotta finish this like after this i'm so excited to hear what Chloe's gonna think of all these things, especially as we revisit it. Now that, especially once she gets to the end of the book. So this is a journey we are all on together and it seems like a lot of people

are starting to crack into these books for the first time because the show is coming out. It seems that a lot of people who might be some of our UK listeners have read these books because they were very popular there. I mean, they were very popular here in the US, but maybe there was something that really connected with people, especially about Oxford. My understanding is that my friend was talking about how she visited Oxford because she loved the His Dark Materials book so much from the U.S., right? And she was like, it's exactly the way it's described in the books.

She's like, that's what it looks like. And so it's really interesting because a lot of people also have these really deep connections with the story from their formative years of growing up. And of course, like any years can be your formative years if there are formative experiences. Obviously, A Song of Ice and Fire has been formative for us in a way. Oh, yeah. And, you know, it's a quick read. I'm not saying that it's simple.

I'm not saying it's an easy read, especially once you're into the second book. There's just a lot that's making me stop and actually turn the page back and go hold on let me read this again like what what did i just read is that gonna what what's gonna happen there um whereas like the first couple times i read a song of ice and fire it was just barrel through because i i was just eating it you know i was hungry and maybe that's just how i've changed as a reader i guess because of a song of ice and fire because of how george writes but with his dark materials it's it's not a long read it only took me a couple days to finish the first book if i just sat there and read for a few hours each day for like one to three days it really didn't take me long um now i'm ready to go back and reread it

and it's an easier read than you know ded, dedicating yourself to A Song of Ice and Fire. Because once you dedicate yourself to A Song of Ice and Fire, as you know, you start a podcast. And I think you're right that reading A Song of Ice and Fire has changed me in that way as a reader. Because when I was rereading The Golden Compass, because it's my first time in, what, 16 years rereading it? 15 years. And I would go back and, like like flip back when i was coming across things and i actually was discussing this with the same friend who went to oxford on a visit and when i was reading the broken earth trilogy by nk jemisin there were things that would make me pause and i was reading it for the first time and i would double all the way back to things like at

the beginning or whatever because like that's, that's, wait, what is this? This is interesting and like checking things and I've become, I think, I have always been kind of an engaged reader but even more so now. Yeah. Changed the way I read it, for sure.

Speaking of engaged readers, we have... And if any of you are going to be at dragon con labor day weekend uh me chloe lies in arbor gold will be there hanging around so reach out hit us up on twitter or shoot us an email and we can chat before and maybe we can meet up at uh there's a huge game of thrones photo shoot on the saturday this is dragon con in atlanta and it's just fun it's fun lots of Game of Thrones-y stuff. I'll be on a handful of panels.

Yeah, it'll be a good time. So, say hi if you see me. Yes. And speaking of saying hi, we have some emails and tweets of note this week. Actually, they're both emails, not tweets. But we have some emails. One comes from our friend

Styles of the Veil. Hi girls, as you've been going through Jon's chapters, it has gotten me thinking about ghosts. I just finished rereading The Dunk and Egg, where they discuss how bastards typically invert their arms. The Stark sigil, as we all know, is a grey wolf on a snowy white field. As such, all of the direwolves are grey with the exception of Ghost and Shaggydog, who probably belong to the arguably oldest and the youngest of the direwolves are great with the exception of Ghost and Shaggydog, who probably belong to the arguably oldest and youngest of the Starks. Ghost is in fact the inverse, which fits with Jon being the bastard of Winterfell along with looking like a weirwood and everything else. I was curious if you thought this was a coincidence or a tactical move on George's part.

Also, parts of Winterfell have described as oak and iron a couple of times. It made me think of Dunk's favorite battle quote, Oak and iron guard me well, or else I am doomed to hell. I thought it was a fitting connection since Winterfell is thought to be a haven for the Starks, and of course Hot Pie keeps calling it Winter Hell.

Nice. I love that. Really good catch uh with that whole sigil bit as far as i know a lot of times in heraldry inverted colors or reversed signs usually indicate that the person is not of the original house so if you think of john with his coloring of his dire wolf as kind of that inverse of the Stark sigil with the red and with white, kind of a cool like bastard look to it, right? Very interesting that it would be like the gray wolf on the snowy white field, but flipped with the white wolf on the gray field with red eyes, possibly. Imagine that in your brain. Do you see it? I see it.

Do you see it, Eliana do you see it eliana yeah that could be his banner but i don't know i wonder if we'll get a banner for him regarding the duncan egg stuff the oak and iron guard me well or else i am or else i'm damned and doomed to hell last week we discussed how george wrote chronologically the duncan egg books versus a dance with dragons and a feast for crows at a storm of swords, where he started, where he went. And it's interesting, you have that great catch of that oak and iron a lot in these Jon chapters at Castle Black. And I'm excited to see when we get to Winterfell as well,

because I don't really think about it. So the next couple chapters and POVs that we end up getting there in, I would love to think about the oak and iron, come back to this for sure. And if you didn't hear, George did confirm his writing schedule currently, which is first and foremost, of course, The Winds of Winter. And then Dunkin' Egg 4, which could be She-Wolves, could not be, we'll see. And then A Dream of Spring, and then Dunkin' Egg 5, and then Fire and Blood 2. So it makes me wonder with that in mind, if he's going to be writing some of those alongside each other and sharing some of the same central themes like he's been doing in A Feast for Crows,

A Storm of Swords, Dance of Dragons, yada, yada. And it makes me think what a Fire and Blood 2 we'll see that will tie in with the current like Aegon IV, Aegon V, Aegon VI, Summerhall, this, that, blah, blah, blah, Blackfire, this, parades, you know, Burning King's Landing. I'm sure George is excited to explore Aegon the

fourth. I remember going through some So Speak Martins, I forgot which ones they were, and he was talking about some future stories or novellas that he would like to write and he had toyed around, this was long, long ago, like almost 20 years ago

he had toyed around with wanting to do one around Aegon IV and I was like, interesting he had toyed around with doing like a first person perspective of

Aegon IV and said that this was something that he wanted. Obviously, this has not come to fruition, but this is, I guess, his chance in Fire and Blood 2. I imagine it's bizarre in there. I can't wait for Fire and Blood 2. I know it sounds crazy,

but I really enjoyed fire and blood I like the depth we got out of the dance obviously camera I want to know what happens to Aegon the third yeah me too I do a lot of people are like I want to know what happens to Aeg to Aeg 5 and I'm like why

you know what happens to him he decides to try to somehow birth dragons or some shit because of prophecy and he burns down everything that's literally what happens and Rhaegar is born and it all follows prophecy yada yada like that that's what kills me people are like I want to know what happened I was like there you go that's all you need and obviously there will be nice nuances but I'm excited about things like egg three I want like those answers but interestingly enough Aegon the fourth i did a uh it was like a it was a nerdy comedy ted talk thing a long time ago a few years ago whatever i did it and it was supposed to be

like funny no one else laughed but man it was a good comprehensive learning experience no one liked it except me i was like this guy's awful no one cared it was just it was like a small indie like building that did comedy you know rented out like a black box or some crap and i chose to do a slideshow a powerpoint a google powerpoint wow whatever it's slides google slides interesting google slides aggin IV, and his mistress's presentation. So that was a hard seven minutes. Let me just tell you. One for every face of the seven gods.

So we got an email from our friend Travis, and he said that he stumbled recently on our podcast, and he loves it, and he'd like to hear our thoughts on this idea he had about the pale mare being Lyanna Stark. In prophecy, the pale mare is female. First the pale mare and after her.

Plus all the warnings in the prophecy referred to people. When Jon goes down in the crypts, I think with her tomb being down there when the kings of winter rise, he'll be able to talk to her ghost with her horse symbolism and her being dead this is where i think she's the pale mare and find out he's the rightful heir ergo danny needs to be aware the pale mare aka liana's ghost that's really interesting i

what's fun about george's prophecies is that a lot of them are so ambiguous and they can mean different things and it's open to interpretation and misinterpretation from readers and characters alike or maybe not even like misinterpretation it's just like several of them hold so many meanings you know yeah and it's an interesting catch too thinking that they're a person And I could see that maybe it's just more of a metaphorical symbolic and Jon is the pale mare in the fact that he is Lyanna's son and his claim threatens Dany. However, it did remind me of that one show quote that Cersei and Robert have going back and forth

in A Game of Thrones in season one when she says, what could Lyanna Stark's ghost have done to us that we haven't done a hundred or a thousand times or something? And it makes me think of Jon Snow. Jon Snow is what Lyanna Stark's ghost can do. Lyanna Stark's ghost directly transcends to Jon Snow, the supposed heir possibly to the throne. Yeah, I mean, that's one more thing that Lyanna's ghost can do.

Take the throne from them. That and also accidentally steal all the mans. that's one more thing that Lyanna's ghost can do. Take the throne from them. That, and, like, also, like, accidentally steal all the mans. Yep. But she's already done that. We have to start age 15. Oh, God. Yeah, it's gross.

Oh, God. Everyone needs to chill. Everyone needs to let her go. She's a fucking teenager. God. Anyway, but let's talk about that pale mare and liana's ghost in john yeah let's go to talk about john so the battle of the wall continues but before that we got a lightning round yes in brand four samwell tarly brings prince brandon and his party through the black gate daenerys five arstan whitebeard reveals that he has been deceiving daenerys

while revealing his true identity it's sir barryson the bold who saw this coming tyrian seven when your child bride doesn't like you because your family horrifically murdered her family and you have to send your paid girlfriend away life is pretty hard Sansa 4 Sansa learns of the red wedding and must attend Joffrey's pre

wedding gift bonanza right Tyrion 8 Tyrion attends his nephew's wedding it's uneventful nothing happened and that's why in Sansa 5 Sansa has to leave

so boring it was just such a boring party she flees her ex's wedding early due to like his motherfucking death and instead of popping bottles she's actually pretty emotionally conflicted. But thankfully, she's got a savior over here. It's Littlefinger.

Why'd you just make that face? You were like flirting with me over the camera after you said Littlefinger. I know, I just wanted to make a lot of conflicted feelings in you. You were like nodding your head and grinning. Like, uh... I just wanted to make a lot of conflicted feelings in you. You were like, nodding your head and grinning like, uh, uh. I just wanted to

make it as gross as possible for you. Jamie 7. Jamie returns to King's Landing, missing his hand and now a son. Nothing happened at that wedding. Davos 6. Davos reminds

Stannis that a real king must protect his people or he is no king at all. Jon 8. You thought we were done with the battle? No way! The scattering of rangers and fens that Jon and company defeated last episode are nothing compared to what comes their way. Mammoths, giants, and of course, Mance Rayder await us ahead. Oh, and some more death. Yay, the best. He dreamt he was back in Winterfell, limping past the stone kings on their thrones. Their gray granite eyes turned to follow him as he passed, and their gray granite fingers

tightened on the hilts of the rusted swords upon their laps. You are no Stark, he could hear them mutter in heavy granite voices. There is no place for you here. Go away. He walked deeper into the darkness. Father, he called. Bronn, Rickon. No one answered. A chill wind was blowing up, was blowing on his neck. Uncle, he called. Uncle Benjen? Father! Please, father, help me! Up above he heard drums. They are feasting in the great hall, but I am not welcome there. I am no stock, and this is not my place. His crutch slipped and he fell to his knees. Thes were growing darker a light has gone out somewhere Ygritte

he whispered forgive me please but it was only a direwolf grey and ghastly spotted with blood his golden eyes shining sadly through the dark oh boy

that's a way to open a chapter that is a fucking showstopper that's some heavy shit it's a it's a lot that's some guilt some some abandonment issues some guilt some some bastard issues a lot of things you know what it reminds me of though this this dream of john's where he's walking in the darkness and it keeps getting gold colder and he's walking in the darkness and it keeps getting colder and he's trying to find someone and he keeps going down this hall to whatever's at the end of it and can't find it.

It reminds me of Dany's dream in A Game of Thrones. I think it is. And she's trying to find... It's right before the dragons are born and her running down the hall and the cold chasing her behind her oh yes and i love i like that i was just gonna say is it remind you the danny dream they have a lot of similar thematic like things going back and forth that dream yeah any other

dreams really hell even her house of the undying visions really tie in with his dreams a lot especially like that dream too when she's like faster faster and the flames always coming for her that's what's interesting is like everywhere she goes it's darkness and flames and this and i don't know and he has this like dream of the crypts constantly and it's cold and i don't know i like it i like it a lot it's really good work it's just so good and like also he's thinking of it and obviously he's thinking of egret and he's worried about ghost because ghost hasn't shown up and he actually had gone and burned egret himself between battle as she would have wanted but he's worried that ghost might be dead and then he thinks about the wolf in his dream and how it was gray and he's

like i wonder if bran's wolf is dead because of the thens like i wonder if summer and brand were murdered by thens but we know brand's alive and obviously summer's with him right this moment so this is really rob's wolf gray wind right i think it is that's what i was thinking too because the coloring is similar i think it's just that eyes robs is a little darker so but like i don't know apparently it's dark here so maybe he can't really tell it has to be rob it has to be because this is literally around when so the horn blows and immediately john's like the horn of winter and then he's like oh no it's probably just man's raider so he like gets up and is this passage technically about alarm clocks because

it blew twice and he was like he knew he had had to get up, but he didn't want to. And that was me this morning. I snoozed my alarm from like 530 until six almost. Like I was like, oh, shit. Do you not usually do that? So same, John. I do, but like. You're so good.

My significant other is out of town. So usually I can make myself get up earlier if I know that they are awake. I'm like, oh, they're awake. I should be awake. But now it's like I have no reason myself get up earlier if I know that they are awake. I'm like, oh, they're awake. I should be awake. But now it's like, I have no reason to get up. So I could just sleep forever luxuriously if I wanted, but I can't. I can't. And Jon couldn't hear

either. He could not. He could not. We will fight a battle and then we'll rest. Alive or dead, we'll rest. That was very, like, Game of Thrones show, though. Like, they have that, uh, I fought, I died, now I rest, that he says in season six or five?

I don't know, whatever. Oh, six, six, because he died in five, whatever. Continuity. Whatever. What is it? What is it even? It's just, like, I blocked that out, so. He looks for his friends, but it's dark, and they're nowhere to be seen, probably because it's dark.

So then he moves along. He prepares to ride the windshop and it actually takes ten men at a time. Going up with him are Satin, Mully, Spearboot, Kegs, Big Blonde Harith with his buck teeth. They call him Horse. It's important for everyone to know.

Zay, the sex worker who wanted to stay and three orphan boys that Donald Noy had kept. I kind of actually know that I think about it just because we talked about Barristan earlier. Barristan keeps three that he trains especially, right? Yeah, he does.

Three to be nice. People, I think, just have the capacity to be a mentor to only three people, except for Donald Noy who's going to die. Clytus brings them some mulled wine, and Haw brings black bread while they wait to ascend. I wonder if it's like Outback Steakhouse bread.

That shit's good. I mean, it might be their last meal, so it might as well make it good, you know? Don't want people like... Bring them a bloomin' onion. Oh my god. That would be amazing. Have you ever watched videos on how those are made no but now i will tonight and make one i have so many onions they have like a i mean you can do it by hand but they have a fucking apparatus

for turning it into a bloom wow you gotta watch it you gotta see it so satin asks if man's raider has come for them and john's like yes well we can hope so and he starts to think there are worse things in the night and that you can't fight the dead when the dead walk walls and stakes and sword mean nothing you cannot fight the dead john snow no man knows that half so well as me. Mance Rayder. Love that quote. I like that right after it. It says that just thinking of it made the wind seem a little colder. And I think there's two things going on here.

One of them is, yes, that's terrifying because the zombie army of ice does literally make the wind colder and is terrifying. But it also maybe is colder because then he's like thinking oh mance and i were like kind of bros now i'm sad yeah absolutely it's he's obviously in dire terms and i mean think about when corin and mance had to go against each other john is kind of feeling that familial feeling right now that bond i mean he was one of them for a while and this line also reminds me of two other characters that kind of get surrounded by death imagery catelyn stark and quentin martell it reminds you of catelyn six in a clash of kings when she tells brianna to fight

the living not the dead and of course it reminds you of men's lives have meaning not their deaths see it's funny because I wasn't thinking this until you brought up the thing about Cersei and Robert saying, why could Lyanna's ghost do that she hasn't to us anymore? And it kind of goes together with these quotes of like, they're still fighting their dead. Like Robert has spent so many years fighting his dead instead of living. It's like feelings and memories.

His ghosts. Yeah. He's been wrestling with his ghosts. Along with how there's literally going to be zombies. A lot of things going on in this story, y'all. They silently crowd into the winch when it arrives and then up they go. The cold is horrid

as they get out, as the cold always is. Fire burns along the wall and iron baskets on poles, quarrels, arrows, spears, and scorpion bolts, which are all lined up on the wall. There's also rocks that are piled high along with barrels of pitch and oil. Those are stacked. And even though there are no men, at least like if Bowen left it stocked, then Donald Noy hears noise in the wind and asks what is it and john's like oh that's a mammoth it's gonna be sick bro yeah it was pretty exciting

so like i i know we find tons of these animals so interesting in a song of ice and fire we talk a lot about like horses and sources but mammoths have been around forever the children of the forest originally fought the first men mounted on them and later on in this chapter we we learn the mammoths still to this day are big enough for the giants to ride into battle not just little wood nymphs yep john. John knows that it's Mance, though, and not the others, because fire moves in the darkness toward them, flickering on and off beyond the wall.

And then Donald Noy commands the burning pitch and oil to be thrown from the trebuchet's lid up. The light then, as it hits and soaring through the air, lets John see a dozen mammoths. This is gonna be great. But the second round of oil lets him know

that there aren't just 12, there are hundreds. Huge. I love this passage. And now the wildlings answered, not with one horn, but with a dozen and with drums and pipes as well.

We are come, they seemed to say. We are come to break your wall, to take your lands and steal your daughters. The wind howled, the trebuchets creaked and thumped. The barrels flew. I thought it was just like so rhythmic and nice. I don't know. It was a good passage.

It felt foreboding. It really got us with these stakes of what we're standing against because this isn't the first night of battle. That was nothing compared to this. It's continuing. And interestingly enough about the mammoths, did you know the Night's Watch feasted Alisan on mammoth?

Yeah. And that was one of the weird details back then. I was like, oh, so there were probably way more mammoths around. I mean, maybe. Or they were just willing to, like, range and go up there and get it because there were more of them. And, like, brave the other side of the wall to do it. I also thought it was cute that when Viserys I was dying

and telling Jaehaera and Jaehaerys stories on his deathbed, he told them about how Jaeari's one and Alisand fought giants, mammoths, and wildlings beyond the wall. It's interesting. It's cute. It's totally a lie. Yeah, after we've seen what happened with Alisand. Yeah, we're like, that's cute. You like your grandfather. You literally have a story now

where it says that you couldn't go beyond the wall and it was cute the imagery here is fun though because it gives you a taste of what it's going to be like when you know the ice zombies come and they aren't making noise yeah

the wall is not something that can be taken by conventional methods but if the gate is taken then they are toast. So they gotta hold this gate. The outer door was old oak, nine inches thick, and studded with iron, not easy to break through. But mounts has

mammoths, he reminded himself. And joints as well. So there's that oak and iron we talked about last week and with Stiles earlier and of course okay now that you read this I was thinking when you said

they must hold the gate they must hold the door. What if the door in the Winds of Winter in the Bran chapter is oak and iron? Especially with the Hodor as Dunk's descendant. Fuck. You're welcome. welcome just rip my heart out yeah my heart hurts too that's why i said it because i want someone else to share my pain thanks i hate it so donald noy commands them to light up a row of oil and warm them up quote

unquote when the last is gone gren kicks the last barrel of pitch off the ledge and it's met by many screams below but drums and pipes and trebuchets all keep to the rhythm and sept and selador begins to sing a song that you might find familiar from a certain chapter in the black water and it is of course the uh song of mercy the mother's song the gentle mother font of mercy save our sons from war we pray stay the swords and stay the arrows let them know but it trills off because noi interrupts him and is like bugger off where the hell are the archers what are you doing here sept and celador i'm honestly really wondering. After everything we've read about Sept and Selador, I'm like, just drink more wine and go to bed.

Yeah, like, why are you here? Not good for morale. He isn't! He's really not. Anyways. Molly says it's too dark to aim, and Noi tells him to lose some arrows, you'll just find someone eventually.

And he takes two spears and two bows to help hold the door and tells John the wall is his. For a moment, John thought he had misheard. It had sounded as if Noi was leaving him in command. My lord.

Lord, I'm a blacksmith. I said the wall is yours. There are older men, John wanted to say. Better men. I'm still as green as summer grass. I'm wounded and I stand of desertion. His mouth had gone bone dry. Aye, he managed. This is that same denial and pain he's dealt with since childhood from being a bastard,

but now it's amplified times ten in the moment of battle, right? Like, there are better men, there are older men, I'm green, I'm wounded, I'm a deserter, I'm a bastard. It's a tale of sometimes how doing the right thing doesn't get you ahead, right? Jon has done the right thing, he's done what's been asked of him, but it doesn't necessarily always get him ahead socially or politically, just like Ned, because that didn't get him ahead either. Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you. Yeah, I mean, this comes back, you know, John's reluctance and denial and eventually stepping up to the plate later on this chapter. But this entire exchange with Donald Noy, I'm going to come back to later this episode. The battle passes like a dream state for John. I actually find the language here a little interesting because it says afterward, it would seem to john as if he dreamt that night and it's a kind of i don't know if it's a clumsy switch or if it's something george just did for the sake of poetry because george writes that afterward john would feel like it was all a dream

or whatever you know which slips into a little bit of that omniscient narrator voice and we don't usually see into the future of the story in that way you know it usually comes through the context of what dreams or prophecies etc not like this where it's presented as a memory right now and i think this is just top of mind for me because we were talking about his dark materials before our other read-through series and that is written with a third person omniscient narrator where they might be like later on this character would look back on this moment thinking fondly of it or whatever or they would learn this later too whatever whereas obviously a song of ice and fire is written in that very close third perspective where characters don't really

know what's going to happen later on unless it's through like prophecy or whatever it's just weird language yeah we're bereft of a lot of that foreknowledge or hindsight that comes along sometimes when you have that third person narrator rocks and arrows are flying through the air drunk celadon is praying to the gods so loudly they almost chuck him off the ledge. And the wind blows harder and harder. We should have twenty trebuchets, not two. And they should be mounted on sledges and turntables so we can move them. It was a futile thought.

He might as well wish for another thousand men and maybe a dragon or three. So the next time John does this battle it'll hopefully be with a dragon or three probably just a I mean I assume it'll be

three but like I do think maybe the show isn't entirely wrong that they're that the others get one because otherwise then they're just too fucking stacked you know yeah that's true three dragons like that was something that made me mad in the long night it's like you guys had two dragons why didn't you use them better i know there were winds

of winter but it's like now that i think about it it's like you could have organized this better you could have had like the way you set your trap up for the others you could have like went through and burned the field a little better for what for the field i don't know yeah like the actual others you know you could have like taken out pretty big masses pretty easily quickly to help but like then we wouldn't have a tv show so i understand yeah i do think that like they won't have the full three there is going to be like another one just because the stakes got to be higher i i think it's going to be fake i don't know if it's going to be the others or fag on Euron, but someone is going to take out or get a dragon. Yeah.

And I don't know. Personally, I think one of them, whoever steals a dragon, probably Fagon or something, he dies. Maybe the dragon dies with him. And later on, I don't know, the others get to him and they're like, this is cool. Look at this. We can animate this love you know i really would love for it to be fagon yeah at this point because if he does get something and if he gets viserian yeah that would be great because he was no true dragon in it oh man i'm

so off course right now but like it totally fits perfectly with that idea of. We'll get to this one day, everyone. But yeah, and like then he would be a blue eyes white dragon, just like in Yu-Gi-Oh, which is obviously a supplementary material to A Song of Ice and Fire. And George has said that, you know, the true conflict is the a great character. The true conflict is the conflict of the heart. And this would be the heart of the cards. Yes! Oh my god. Thanks. I'll be here all day. We cracked the code.

Total Noi doesn't return, and neither do any of the other men. And John tries to keep going, despite the pain in his leg returning. And, oh, his fever's back too! One more arrow, and I'll rest, he told himself. Half a hundred times. Just one more.

Whenever his quiver was empty, one of the orphaned moles would bring him another. One more quiver, and I'm done. It couldn't be long until the dawn. Wait, one more arrow, and I'll rest. Is this Butterfly Season 8 foreshadowing? Is this it? For which part? One more arrow, and I'll rest is this butterfly season eight foreshadowing is this it for which part one more arrow and i'll rest to the heart tie that yeah to the heart tie that with uh we will fight a battle and then we'll rest alive or dead we'll rest yeah i do think that i i was

thinking like this must mean something this means a lot of the stuff that like i'm now seeing that i go oh this means something i'm like oh it end game i want to be it morning comes and they almost don't realize it but with the morning and the already dead come more fucking wildlings it's like all the wildlings in the universe literally uh raiders giants wargs skin changers mountain men salt sea sailors ice river cannibals cave dwellers with dyed faces dog chariots from the frozen shore and hornfoot men with souls of their feet like boiled leather he realizes the magnar had been nothing but a feint to catch them unaware and that this this is the real battle yeah well this is one of the real battles for sure and it really makes you

once more admire what mance has done bringing all these people together and i imagine that we're gonna maybe again see a similar scene with the others but worse like you're gonna see oh look at all these different kinds of people all brought together but they're whites and like the others aren't gonna need to faint and they're not gonna need trickery they're just gonna keep going as the humans become more tired and more tired and more tired you know reading this and reading this battle and then multiplying it in my head times 10 i'm like oh shit yeah it's gonna be crazy that's gonna be nuts yeah they're gonna like obviously lose a couple battles they barely make it out of this one with you know there's giants riding mammoths into the battle and the rest of the wildlings lurch forward they got spears and clubs and swords and dog chariots. Is this Balto? And of

course a battering ram. And then satin wheels that we can't defeat this many. This is the reason I was drinking wine. I have to get my Lord's clothes on. The war will stop them, Jan heard himself say. He turned and said it again, louder.

The war will stop them. The wall defends itself. Hallow words, but he needed to say them, almost as much as his brothers needed to hear them. Mance wants to unman us with his numbers. Does he think we're stupid? He was shouting now, his leg forgotten, and every man was listening.

The chariots, the horsemen, all those fools on foot. What are they going to do to us up here? Any of you ever seen a mammoth climb a wall? He laughed, and Pip and Owen and half a dozen more laughed with him. They're nothing. They're less use than our straw brothers here. They can't reach us, they can't hurt us, and they don't frighten us, do they?" No! Gren shouted.

They're down there and we're up here, Jon said. And so long as we hold the gate, they cannot pass. They cannot pass. They were all shouting then, roaring his own words back at him, waving swords and log bows in the air as their cheeks flushed red. Jon saw Kegs standing there with a warhorn slung beneath his arm. Brother, he told him, sound the bottle. Yeah, what a good speech. This is the big payoff for the Lord's voice that we talked about a couple chapters ago, right?

Jon uses his Lord's voice here, which obviously frames him for commanding later and for being in command of the Wall now, and maybe even later as King in the North. But it's much like Tyrion at the Blackwater using his Lord's voice suddenly for his speech, in at the Blackwater using his lord's voice suddenly for his speech, or even Jon's mother as the Knight of the Laughing Tree, which is far earlier in this book in Bran 2 A Storm of Swords, it's canon, and it reminds me of a couple different quotes. Eddard VII, Jon Arryn had told them that a commander needs a good battlefield voice, and Robert had proved the truth of that on the Trident. He used that voice now. And of course, Bran too, a storm of swords. When his fallen foes sought to ransom horse and armor,

the Night of the Laughing Tree spoke in a booming voice through his helm, saying, Teacher Squire's honor! That shall be ransom enough! Yes, and it is interesting that you tie it to Tyrion at the Blackwater too, because they're fighting against Stannis, who is their devil, but here Stannis will end up being their savior. Yeah, it's reverse Blackwater, bitches! little more eloquent i mean tyrian's really into words and shit i like that like john's thing works it's really it does get you really amped when all he's saying is like he's just insulting the other side he's just being like they're dumb we're not but like it works like this is what the teenage

boys want right now this is what they fucking need they do though yeah i know it like works it's cute it does so cute it's. I mean, and it's cute. It works. It's a great step up to see him transform into this role. This is the big moment where, you know, Jon has finally, it's like what I expect from Sansa's arc eventually, you know, is her accomplishing becoming some sort of political leader. And same with Jon. He's a leader, even politically, but here he's a commander.

Yeah. He's commanding them. He's leading them and they respect him he's earned their respect and they want to keep fighting because of him it's awesome yeah and like with that respect and that renewed energy that's what allows like john to command the wall he's not only giving the speech he's telling the archers to wait for his call and then apparently he laughs like a madman or a drunk and his men are laughing with him. He continues giving orders to the men and watches the wildlings' discipline begin to

falter as he thought it would as they dash forward to shoot and then they retreat quickly. He waits for them to be close enough and then he commands the other people of the Night's Watch to notch and loose repeatedly and to shoot the trebuchets and the scorpions. And then he commands the men with fire arrows to light them and burn the ram. So we have this quote, they might be dregs of the order, but they were men of the Night's Watch or near enough has made no matter. That's why they shall not pass. John has never been allowed to have any identity and he finds his identity while in a military order that's not allowed to have an identity. Wrap that around right there a couple times in a row.

Say that ten times fast. Yeah. A mammoth runs berserked into the gate, and John commands Gren and Pip to light him up. Boo. into the gate, and Jon commands Gren and Pip to light them up. Boo. Sutton shouts, got him! And suddenly, they all begin to break.

The mammoths flee, smashing people in terror. It's kind of risky, apparently, bringing mammoths into battle. Giants and wildlings scramble out of the way, the center column collapses, and horsemen fall back. The chariots rumble off. When they break, they break hard hard john snow thought as he watched them reel away the drums had all gone silent how do you like that music months how do

you like the taste of the dornishman's wife you know that's a weird part of the passage to me i've been trying to figure that out we did same and there's nothing we did that analysis of the passage to me. I've been trying to figure that out. Same, and there's nothing. We did that analysis of the Dornishman's wife, and I don't know if I get it. I don't get that part. I get it. I think also he's drunk on battle, but how do you like the taste of the Dornishman's wife?

How is that move, that maneuver, that throwing things? I don't know. Well, okay. It's kind of like a surprise slash backstabby move, right? Because the guy's like, I finally got to taste the Dornishman's wife after battling for it. I guess so. It just doesn't make sense. He's just, like, throwing it back at him.

It's like his speech, you know? He's, like, saying back at him it's like his speech you know he's like saying hilarious like hilarious shit and he's just like take that take that motherfucker you thought you could climb this wall but you can't and that's what john's doing right now that's it's in line yeah yeah checks out so after he checks that the men aren't wounded everybody cheers and zay the woman from moleestown, grabs Owen and kisses him and tries to kiss John, but he pushes her away and he's like, No. I am done with kissing.

So Zay has a very short shelf life. She appears only in this chapter and the next chapter, well, she disappears. She's mentioned in the next chapter. And she never returns to the plot. So goodbye, Zay. We hardly knew ye. That's how I feel about Lady Meliana, who is no true lady at all.

Jon gets weary and gives Gren command of the wall and pips like, him? And escorts him to the cage and Jon needs to check the gate before he can rest. And I do think it's telling here that Jon's weariness comes in the

form of his leg and he suddenly needs to rest because we've discussed before how in this battle john's leg serves a similar function to how ned's leg injury did in his chapters back when we were going through them and for john's like to begin hurting dearly again as zay tries to kiss john and john's like no I'm done with kissing. He's done with kissing, of course, because he's mourning Ygritte. And so for his leg to hurt again is in response to that kissing. And that means it's again about Ygritte, that pain, his leg starts hurting again. It's a reminder of her because she's the one who gave him that wound. It's like if you heard a song on the radio about your ex i get it maester amon brings the spare key to the gate and clidus brings a lantern amon tells john to see him after this to

tend to his wound and they begin to walk they travel the tunnel opening the gates until suddenly they see light coming in the corridor from the very last set of gates. That's a bad sign, obviously. That means that gate's been broken, and they see blood on the ground as well. It's a very murder scene. Like, oh, there we found the dripping blood. Oh, the light's pouring through. Oh no, what are we gonna find? The last

20 feet of the tunnel was where they'd fought and died. The outer door of studded oak had been hacked and broken and finally torn off its hinges and one of the giants had crawled in through the splinters. The lantern bathed the grizzly scene in a sullen, reddish light. Pip turned aside to retch

and John found himself envying Maester Aemon his blindness. So the gate was ripped apart by a giant. They find out it was one giant and that Donald Noye's sword was plunged into the giant's neck. That was his last move before death, ripped Donald Noy. And in, you know, sadness of his death, his rest, it reminds me of the Lord's voice like we've been talking about in this passage from John 7 we read.

It does not matter how brave or brilliant a man is if his commands cannot be heard. Lord Eddard told his son, so Rob and he used to climb the towers of Winterfell to shout at each other across the yard. Donald Noy could have drowned out both of them. The moles all went in terror of him

and rightfully so, since he was always threatening to rip their heads off. Donald Noy was one of the many men john looked up to who mentored him who taught him the difference between his position at the wall and the other boys that arrived and donald did his duty he died defending the watch till the bitter end i'm gonna throw this out there being one of john's dads is basically being a defense of the dark arts teacher it is a cursed position about that so much yeah it's a cursed position for sure and any of these people's mentors really and there's a lot of resonance too because stannis is on his way to save the north right he's on his way to save the day and donald dies without ever getting to see

stannis blaze in with his golden banners. A righteous and just man doing the right thing. He never gets to beholden, you know, the man that he watched grow up and the man that he also attended. Yeah. I know. Sad. I'm like, that's a bummer. Your poor emo son. Yep. Your poor emo son who you think will

break before he bends. True. Big mood. And then the giant that actually broke through is Mag, the king of the giants. And Jon remembers the song, I'm the last of the giants. So this is a lot

of that hashtag both sides. But actually though, because yes, the wildlings coming across the wall would probably be a threat to a lot of the people in the north, but they're not coming necessarily to pillage, per se. They're coming because they were fighting for their lives, as were the giants. Absolutely. I think that's super important to remember here. They're not just attacking for the fun of it.

And more than that, the others are coming, and soon Jon's going to have to fight them again. And everyone in the north is's gonna have to fight them again and everyone in the north is gonna have to fight them I mean I'm glad that the way things go they do get accepted into the north at least a little you know like at least they get to keep some of their lives but this is what people rise

up for you know it's life or death if you're a country that has no chance against another country no chance and no choice and they didn't the choice another country no chance and no choice and they didn't the wildlings had no chance and no choice john knows it he tells them as much he tells egret you know you guys are gonna die egret you're not disciplined enough i mean the night's watch is holding up and they have nothing right now they're literally at the dregs of their men and they are somehow holding their own against the wildlings yeah that has to do with the wall too obviously

but still still and after seeing all of this death, Jon needs Aaron's son because it turns out death is pretty suffocating probably stinky it's a lot down there

so he moves himself past the obstacle of the dead mammoth I'm sure that was great for him too. He looks at more of the dead and sees where the wall was melted and the fallen sheets of ice. He returns to the gate telling them that they need to fix it and get the last knight to command it. Stout, you'll remember him, he's like seven years old. And Amon's like, you know, Stout's just not with it anymore. I don't think he can really keep the wall. And Jon's like, well then

you do it, Eamon. You give the order. But he refuses. Yeah, but Eamon refuses to do that. I am a maester chained and sworn. My order serves, Jon. We give counsel not commands. Someone must. You. You must lead. No. Yes, John.

It need not be for long. Only until such time as the garrison returns. Donald chose you and Corrin Halfhand before him. Lord Commander Mormont made you his steward you are a son of Winterfell a nephew of Benjen Stark it must be you or no one the wall is yours Jon Snow Lamar would need

not be for long except by the end of the book nope sorry Jon this is your job now until you know dies there's another mutiny but whatever By the end of the book, nope, sorry, John, this is your job now, until you know. Dies. Yeah, you get it.

There's another mutiny, but whatever. I love that this just comes right back to Tyrion Six in A Storm of Swords, which is pretty much around this few chapters earlier. And any man who must say, I am the king, is no true king at all. While we've criticized that reluctant leader trope here and there, it different for john who very much so was raised by ned and of course the wall is a different beast than just being a lord of a keep or a king of a kingdom the wall is where you have to separate yourself from your wants and your desires to protect the realm against ice zombies it's a little different and we'll see more of it when stannis arrives but it also reminds me of that moment we hear Ned speak briefly but bitterly about having to think

not of yourself but of the realm and of people that thought brought a bitter twist to Ned's mouth Brandon, yes, Brandon would know what to do he always did, it was all meant for Brandon you, Winterfell, everything he was born to be a king's hand and a father to queens. I never asked for this cup to pass to

me. That's I feel like that's a lot of what Jon goes through. That's from Cat 2 in A Game of Thrones. And I feel like Jon doesn't very often slip into that darkness but Stannis does kind of enable that as we see, you know, those brief fleeting thoughts of I could have Winterfell. I could be this, you know, I'm Sir Aemon the Dragon Knight, all that pain and all those years of being rejected.

Just come rushing to the front and of all the men that could lead the watch and lead everyone in the long night against the dawn, the battle for the dawn. long night against the dawn, the battle for the dawn. Jon is the righteous man to do so, as we learn. He unites people, he brings wildlings into the kingdom eventually. It's a good role for him. He's been mentored by a lot of people who

have a lot of integrity in our good leaders, and he's seen what bad leaders look like, and we're gonna see them again in a little bit. But first we have a lightning round. Arya 12, Nymeria pulls a body from the water. Rise, rise and eat and run with us.

Tyrion 9, Tyrion's preliminary trial for murder, you know, at the really uneventful wedding, doesn't go very hot. But at the end of the day, he finds a champion. Jamie 8. Jamie gets back to business, perusing the white book of those who came before him. Sansa 6. Littlefinger teaches Sansa new lessons, and Sansa meets her Aunt Liza.

In John 9, the Night's Watch stands tall against Mance Raider and his turtle. And the turtle! So, with all of the Donald Noy chatter, this kind of reminds me of the Baratheons,

Robert's Warhammer, right? The axes just make me think of Robert and his axe. And also the Battle of the Bells. Actually, and the constant tolling of the bells that Jon Kahn hears. It's fitting that that sound ringing here is an axe, and it's kind of like a mournful sound for Donald Noy, right? For his smithing abilities. It is.

Damn. And then Jon doesn't remember the last time he slept. He can hear yeah that thunk of axe on wood even in the king's tower and worse in the warming shed now that we're being reminded of other things I don't think it happens in this chapter

I don't remember if it's in Sansa 6 or not when she meets Liza and how Sansa couldn't sleep yeah but for a different reason because uh sex yeah Liza Liza's loud in bed yeah she how Sansa couldn't sleep. Yeah, she couldn't. But for a different reason, because... Sex. Yeah, Lysa's loud in bed. Yeah, she does.

Lysa fucks. Good for her. Good for her. I love that when George introduces Lysa, he's like, she's puffy, and she's got caked makeup on, and she's kind of bloated, and she's wearing a hoe dress, and I'm like, same. Yeah.

Big mood. i can understand this that's me at dragon con by the way like when sweat's happening it's like saturday night you've been out with the same makeup for four hours you know that shit's not on hotlanta so john is lying restless when owen comes to wake him alerting him dawn has come and owen tells him he dreamt of a king coming with great golden banners john made himself smile that would be a welcome sight to see owen ignoring the twinge of pain in his leg he swept a black fur cloak about his shoulders gathered up his crutch and went out onto the wall to face another day such a weird thought seeing those golden banners in the north

we haven't seen those since the very beginning of the book in the north right you don't see them often anymore now that robert's dead for every man that he could see john knew there was a score unseen in the wood the brush gave them some shelter from the elements and hid them from the eyes of the hated crows is this a reference to the sc play? I think it is. Like I got similar vibes. And I thought it was going to be like a little more explicit, but I got the same vibe.

Yeah, it reminds me of the Scottish play because MB is told he will be defeated when Burnham Wood comes to Dunsinane. And later the soldiers cut branches to hide themselves. So it looks like the wood is moving just reminded me of that yes so everyone chloe's talking about macbeth and i am out here cursing myself because i don't care and yeah no i got the same vibe and i think that's something that george really likes and it comes up again in a different way it's a similar reference in one of asha's chapters later

on when stannis's men take her and they're using the force yeah and the brush and using that as camouflage and it's also i think george's reference to that as well in the way that it's it's laid out it's his response to it in the way that you know tolkien responded to the same exact reference and for him he decided to use the ants and shakespeare you know people are into that i'm into that george has it with the weirwood trees as well obviously as we know but yeah interestingly enough the way that sentence is written for every man that he could see john knew there was a score unseen in the wood. And giving that personification, it reminds me of the Corinthians 4.18 a little bit.

For our light and our momentary affliction is producing for us an eternal glory that is far beyond comparison. So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. Since what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen since what is seen is temporary but what is unseen is eternal i wonder also it kind of that right there that corinthians 4 18 reminds me of that line in season 8 that daenerys says it's hard to see something that's never been before especially with that eternal glory idea um i don't know i i think it could be used about battle for the dawn and also for the throne, I suppose. But it just reminded me a little bit of that. Just thoughts.

Just thoughts. Interesting. Interesting. The wildlings begin to wake also and they send forth their archers. Pip has taken to announcing, here come our breakfast arrows every morning. Yeah, he's also been naming the scarecrows

and john's like pip no and finally they're all like all right pip fine so he's naming them after their dead friends apparently it's good for morale i really don't understand how but it john's like this seemed really weird but it made everyone feel better and he's like okay but it made everyone feel better. And he's like, okay. So there's a Mirrish Eye. It's like a telescope, basically, that sits on the wall. And Aemon used to use it for stars,

but now it's been helpful for the battle. Jon watches the wildlings. He's spying Mance at his tent with Dala, pregnant as can be, and Val is milking a goat. And I thought that was cool. You only hear about the Mirrish Eye in a couple other places. victorian speaks about it and so does maester lewin so obviously the citadel likely utilizes them obviously that's an easy one of course they do they're freaking scholars they're from oxford i mean old town uh wrong podcast so i don't know it also reminds me that he's looking

straight at the wildlings like you never should. Like, you never should have loved them. You never should have left them. Yeah, and looking at them be cute and shit. Yeah. Yep. He wheels the Mirashai to find a turtle as well. It's got a rounded top and eight huge wheels. And it has a lot of different hides placed

on it including a mammoth that they skinned the night before on its wooden frame he tells the men the turtle is gonna come today have we filled the barrels they did and they're they frozen the barrels to solid ice for like attack reasons right grand smart it is smart you got to use what resources you can and the one thing they do have is something that can turn to water and then turn back to ice snow snow ned oh so gren didn't really get sleep john commands him to get rest while he can and he returns to the mirish eye and he scans camp. He watches arrows whiz past sporadically. He sees no sign of Mance, but he does find Tormund, his sons, and Varamyr's six skins with the Shadowcat at his feet.

The chains of the Wind Creek, and that signals Hob, bringing them breakfast, but breakfast really isn't comforting Jon. They're out of oil, they're out of pitch, and soon arrows are going to be scarce as well. The night before last, a raven delivered news of Bowen Marsh chasing wildlings from the Shadow Tower, courtesy of Dennis Malister.

But the triumph was cut short, because while they beat the wildlings, they also lost a hundred brothers in the process, including Ser Endro of Tarth and Ser Adel Winch. And along with all that, the old pomegranate, aka Bowen, was

grievously injured. Darn, I'm so sad. Yeah. Jon sends Zay to go rouse what's left of Molestown, but Zay does not return. Mollie goes after her, he finds the village is abandoned,

and knows Zay in sight, and John knows she likely fled south on the King's Road like everyone else, and he wishes that they could all do the same. He makes himself eat, even if he has no appetite, because it could be their last meal. But suddenly, eating's interrupted, horse shouts,

IT'S COMING! We know what that is. It's a turtle. Yes. And I just want to address this for everyone, because maybe you're just like, why did George choose a turtle? Why is there all this hubbub about a turtle? And I would like to explain

that George is very much into turtles. Turtles are, I guess, for him, what zorses and horses are for me except i never had a pet horse because i didn't have that much money whereas uh george he had turtles and turtles i guess are not expensive i don't know they were the only pets that he was allowed to have as a child and he used to actually create all these stories of intrigue around them. And he was like, the turtles would live in castles, and then they'd have battles and fight against each other. He wouldn't like really

like, I guess, I assume, he's never actually gone into detail about this. But I assume he didn't really make the turtles fight each other or smash them against each other. But he came up with all of these plots that the turtles would have against one another and sometimes the turtles would die you know i don't know how long-lived some of these turtles are or how well he took care of them and he would tell themself himself that they were betrayed by other turtles if i'm recalling this detail correctly and so that is why we have a turtle at the wall my favorite george turtle is probably morla there's another one that I like it's not Morla it's a small one and I like to think of him as the young man of the river

you've talked about him the old man of the river yeah yeah the young man no because he's small but it's him is Morla the young man of the river no Morla's a little girl she's beautiful yes yes okay cool yes there's great George has turtles they're great we love them

and next month be sure to check out our september patreon episode for five dollar patrons and up on the turtles of a song of ice and fire we've got this turtle we've got the old man of the river we're going to talk a lot about house yeah we're going to talk a lot about house Estermont. And their role in the story as turtles. They actually might play a role. I think they're probably going to be on Fagon's side. Yeah, I mean, like, they came up and there was some stuff about them. Well, I wouldn't be surprised if...

Sidebar, Arianne and the Stormlands. Yeah. And, you know, they did take Edric Storm. Exactly. So I do think House Estermont will play a role. Anyway, you know, they did take Edric Storm. Exactly. So I do think House Estermont will play a role anyway. Sorry, everyone. So,

Satin and Pip remark on how turtley it is not of the turtle, because it doesn't look like a turtle. It's just furry and big. But nonetheless, it's coming, and Jon is like, go sound the war horn, wait, grind, and the other sleepers. It might come down to each of them fighting the wildlings through the iron

bars of the gate at this point. The sheer numbers of the men Mance has will wear the brothers thin as we keep seeing happen. There will continue to be fresh men, but the brothers keep getting tired as it goes. John is just so tired, but he has to give the orders, trying

first to burn the turtle. Scorpions and catapults do not stop it. The hides are not burning. So he pins his hopes on his secret weapon. Again, another sidebar. But my mother says I used to quote an American tale starring Fievel Mauskiewicz all the time and shout, release the secret weapon. I think it was Fievel who says this all the time as a child.

I don't remember this, but it sounds, it checks out. I enjoy that you use the term starring. Like the animated character is actually real and he stars in it. You know it's Philip Glass and Thomas Decker who, nevermind, you're not gonna come to terms with this. Roger Rabbit? It was Fievel Mousequitz, sorry.

It was Fievel Mousequitzits you know he's not real right I don't know that Chloe and neither do you they send down the barrels slash boulders that are made of frozen ice and pebbles which is why John needed Gren to go to bed so that he could wake up and be

strong and all these yeah and then John has this idea right along with the already the good idea of the barrels and he does some like that ice curling shit you know that that sport that I don't quite understand I think HamFast42 plays curling if I'm not mistaken he started

getting into it a little and so they melt the ice in front of the barrels a bit using the torches so that it goes like it rolls easier and goes faster. And John keeps saying he's like, damn it, we should have had bow and build hoardings, which is a temporary like shelf like construction that goes a little bit over the walls or whatever to give defenders more field of vision during a siege. But, you know, it's too late. He's like, there's all these things we should have done oh well horse if you'll remember horse saves john yep harith from

falling over the wall when his leg twitches and again john's like damn it we should have built hoardings yeah the chateau comtal uh carcassonne and the keep at rowan castle both in france have reconstructed wooden hoardings. And the Caerphilly Castle in Wales, I think, also has them. They're kind of in the same category as those add-ons, like the Murtrier, the Murder Hole, or Merlins even, if you really want to get technical. It's similar to Merlins, I guess, to keep that guard up.

I hit my head on coming out of a murder hole the other day. By that, I mean last week. I didn't know it was a murder hole, but on like coming out of a murder hole the other day by that I mean last week I didn't know it was a murder hole but I was coming out hit my head once tried to duck down lower wasn't low enough hit my head a second time she's coming out so the first barrel makes a crack

in the turtle after all four of the barrels fall the wildlings leave it and they still have eight barrels left to throw at the turtles, so they did good. They only used four out of twelve. Not bad, not bad. Not bad. This time, Jon gives Pip the ball, and this time, Grend says

him? It's fun stuff all around here in A Song of Ice and Fire. Jon goes to sleep in the king's tower for a bit before the next day's battle when someone comes to wake him and, oh, it's a... At first he's like, i don't know this person and thinks oh shit the wildlings got in but turns out no it's a man of the night's watch and turns out yay alistair thorne is here but he's looking very clean and not like he's been in battles for days just saying interestingly

enough john is dreaming of this he doesn't realize it but he's dreaming And he hears muffled screams and shouts And talking and then he hears the horn sound Once for rangers And then he wakes up You're right you're right I like missed that And then Alistair shows up

And he's like here's the turn cloak now My lord Ned Stark's bastard Of Winterfell. And then Alistair's telling everyone he likes to be called Lord Snow, and Jon's like, no, I don't. You can't be that name. He's like, I'm not gonna let you gaslight me in front of all these randos.

Also, that's bullshit. Jon literally worked so hard to keep up the morale that his emo ass could never keep that up, but he did. And he kept the place jiving and going. And here's Al but he did and he kept the place like jiving and going and here's alicer thorn he's just like i'm here to be annoying what up he's acting like he saved the day it's like no alicer you did not you missed saving the day we already had the worst of it well not true but john pieces together though that i guess these are east watch men

and then alicer like spins this whole tale where john abandoned the night's watch for the wildlings and amon's like we me and donald know we already talked to him about this and we're pretty satisfied with john's explanations probably because he's been murdering wildlings all night but what do i know i don't know who knows who knows what john's been doing this whole time you know but alistair's not satisfied with this and there's this random jowly man that showed up and he's super annoying and oh look it's jano slint everyone please clap just kidding don't don't do that he's like super insistent that john needs to call him my lord and so john's like yes my lord yeah and it comes back a little to what you're saying about any man like who must say that i am king is no true king and there's so

much i think to unpack here and i'm gonna like just go into it because janice keeps correcting john and telling him that no you gotta call me a lord but the way that he says it every time is telling john explicitly to address him as my lord like the m apostrophe l-o-r-d and like you know the show even like made a whole deal of talking about the difference between my lord and my lord and on the other hand you have alistair over here painting john as being the one who is up jumped who wants to be called lord when actually no it's janos janos is the one who's coveting the title because he covets like that station that john is like so close to by birth but doesn't quite have and like it's shown in this exchange through john's response which is simply written as yes my lord and that small difference in spelling it like reveals so much

about janos lens insecurities and like the hypocrisy and irony of all these dynamics especially because you know john's parents are raygar and liana but you know just as donald noy told john like john grew up with a lot of the comforts and that those trappings of nobility even if he didn't feel like he did and all these status symbols and like the nobility that he got to be close to. These are things that Janos Lint really wanted. And that comes through in their speech and the way that they say these words. And the writing just explicitly juxtaposes those in the scene. And then speaking of Donald Noy again, you know, coming back to that moment when Donald leaves John with the wall.

Janos is again out here claiming he's like, I'm in command of the wall now. I having just fucking shown up and never really done anything for it before. And again, he's demanding to be called my lord. And this is in contrast to Donald Noy because the wall was his at the beginning of this last chapter. And then he gives it to John and John accidentally calls Noy because the wall was his at the beginning of this last chapter and then he gives it to Jon and Jon accidentally calls Noy my lord and Noy balks at that he's like refusing the title and then leaves

with a reminder that no I'm not a lord I'm a fucking blacksmith get it right and then he goes and he dies to defend the wall and compared to like Janos and Alistair they like weren't even there they come in and they're dressed like super nice and finally they're unbloodied like Noi takes pride in the fact that he was a blacksmith

he takes pride in his work and he does like he does it well and like Slint who just wants the trappings of power the title of being a lord but none of the hard work behind it yeah no man who calls himself lord commander should be lord commander is what you're saying.

Yes, it is, in fact. There was this really humorous little bit where Janos goes, Oh no, Janos Slint does not swallow lies so easily. Do you think my skull was stuffed with cabbage? I don't know what your skull is stuffed with, my lord. Oh, savage! Jon's been working on his zingers all night and well funnily enough

like you said earlier he was annoyed about Pip making jokes right but now he's like alright fine it's lifting spirits I'll make some jokes he said making fun of Jano Slint yeah I mean he deserves to be made fun of

so John swears he never turned his cloak, but he did break his vows to the woman, but he's like, so did half the Watch internally, like all the time, every night in Molestown with Zay and her colleagues. Like Lady Meliana? Yeah, like Lady Meliana and Zay are girls, but we have a prisoner to witness to Jon's crimes.

Yeah, it's battle shirt, and he's looking a lot more like Ragged Shirt without his armor on. Yeah, he is. Okay, no, he's always looked bad, though. That's true. So, not until that instant did John recognize Rattleshirt. He is a different man without his armor, he thought. First off, your pun, Ragged shirt, that was it? It was good, it was good.

Second, I like that George described Rattleshirt as this like ratty looking man with beady eyes and knobby chin, shitty stash. Especially considering what's to come when he gets traded for Mance. It's so funny to think like how could that ever have passed as Mance? But it is interesting that john doesn't recognize him without the shirt and i think that plays so much into things that we're gonna see and dance around glamours and how much we associate identity you know with the symbols that people carry around them again those trappings of power whatever yeah rattleshirt accuses Jon of killing Corrin half-hand, so things aren't looking great for our protagonist. Jon insists,

Corrin told me what to do, whatever was asked of me. Again, does not look good. At all. It doesn't. He needs like, I don't know, a lawyer, a PR crisis manager. Maybe a new job.

Alistair likens John to the turncloaks that killed Mormont, and then he accuses Benjen of abandoning the watch for Mance Rayder. John peeled off his glove and showed them his burned hand. I burned my hand defending Lord Mormont from a wight, and my uncle was a man of honor who would never have betrayed his vows. I just can't believe they're out here just like slandering Benjen Stark like this. Like, you can't!

Jon's like, I mean, I can believe it, but I'm just like, wow. Wow, way to show your ass, Alistair. But Jon's just like, how dare you act like I didn't love my other dad. But really, it's just very interesting because in the show, you know,

after Jon executed these men who meet against him, they kind of stopped having him clash with other male characters as much, which I think is kind of interesting because I think that from the start of Jon's story in Game of Thrones, it's very full of conflict with other male characters and between the male characters in general. Part of it is, of course, Jon being placed in a very male-dominated organization like the Night's Watch.

But even amongst the Free Folk, he clashes with Rattleshirt and he thinks often about how much he dislikes the Magnar. clashes with rattleshirt and he thinks often about how much he dislikes the magnar and if he was in small council sessions with danny's council of mostly men how do you think he'd feel you know he's likely gonna feel the same way there uh i do i do agree you're totally right while they etched out some of the lords being opposed very lightly to john as king they didn't they were more concerned with lady lannister and her claim and how she's not a real Stark. We're not going to help you in the show. And it kind of surprises me because, as we'll get

into it a little bit, they have some parallels. Some major parallels to talk about. Yeah. And then you have Septon Salador which, like, I don't know. Who are you? Why are you here? What are you doing? What are you doing right now? Like, literally no one asked for your opinion as he tells them like oh also john swore vows not to the seven but went beyond the wall to swear to the old gods and their

wildling gods and like sept and selador are you fucking kidding me right now like who do you think keeps the night's watch running like a lot of the night's watch comes because like there are northern lords the ones who worship the old gods and they're the ones who like have actually supported the night's watch a lot of the time like literally jr mormon also you know now that you point it out like this and it's something that i talk about how tyrian is sandwiched in the next chapter he's the next chapter after this but the chapter before the next tyrian chapter is tyrian's trial so he has all these people falsely bringing evidence against him and right here you have the same thing even sept and zelador is like you know he uh he worships those wild gods and

you have janos and you have alicerair standing there going, yeah, lock him up, lock him up. Yes. Oh, yes. That's such a perfect parallel between them. And well done. Thanks. Great job, Chloe. I just thought of it.

I feel good. I'm done. The podcast's over. Bye, guys. No, we got things to say. Oh, okay, go. And then finally, Maester Aemon is like, all right, enough of this shit. They are gods of the North, Septon. Maester Aemon is like, alright, enough of this shit. They are gods of the North, Septon. Maester Aemon was courteous, but firm.

My lords, when Donald Noy was slain, it was this young man, Jon Snow, who took the wall and held it against all the fury of the North. He has proved himself valiant, loyal, and resourceful. Were it not for him, you would have found Mance Rayder sitting here when you arrived, Lord Slint. You are doing him a great wrong. Jon Snow was Lord Mormont's own steward and squire. He was chosen for that duty because the Lord Commander saw much promise in him as do I. Yes! Tell him! Yeah. So Flint has the audacity to respond with

he goes, these promises may turn false, just what? Wow. And then- Of all the people! Of all the people! Yeah, of all the people because like him, traitor ass bitch, he has the fucking gall to go like, Ned Stark stark he died a traitor wow my father was murdered john was past caring what they did to him but he would not suffer

any more lies about his father slint purpled murder you insolent pup king robert was not even cold when lord eddard moved against his son. He rose to his feet, a shorter man than Mormont, but thick about the chest and arms, with a gut to match. A small gold spear, tipped with red enamel, pinned his cloak at the shoulder. Your father died by the sword, but he was highborn. A king's hand for you a noose will serve. Sir Alistair, take this turncloak to an ice cell. My lord is wise, Sir Alistair seized John by the arm.

John yanked away and grabbed the knight by the throat with such ferocity that he lifted him off the floor. He would have throttled him if the east watchmen had not pulled him off. Thorn staggered back, rubbing the marks Jon's fingers had left on his neck. You see for yourself, brothers. The boy is a wildling. Any sane person would want to do that to Alistair Thorne. Anyway, so obviously A Dance with Dragons wasn't written when this chapter was, but there's some interesting stuff going on here.

We've discussed this before during Sansa's chapters, but when George originally wrote the chapter where Jon executes Jeno Slint, he was actually going to have Jon actually hang Slint, as he initially suggests. Until someone in the audience during a reading of this chapter an earlier reading before it was published pointed out that this is inconsistent with john's character and upbringing as one of ned's quote-unquote children and so you can see here that perhaps it really was meant to be a noose as an insult to janice's station because janice is saying a noose will serve for him and swords are for the highborn but by having the end product as Jon beheading Janos, you end up with the story doing a couple of interesting things, whether or not they're intended by the author, right?

Because there becomes this sense of irony and backhandedness in Janos' beheading, which Janos believes is only reserved for the highborn. which Janos believes is only reserved for the highborn and of course as we know it reinforces John's northern identity and how he was raised by Ned but it also then in the context of this passage shows the kind of honor

behind Ned and the north's custom for this beheading because highborn or lowborn that method of execution is the same it's always that swinging the sword and in a morbid sort of way it's almost a little more egalitarian than using the manner of someone's death to demean them because ned basically believes highborn or low you owe it to them

to look in the eye and if you would take their life you would be the one to swing the sword yourself and not use a noose yeah and to coincide with that in sam 5 and a storm of swords stannis says he thinks peter balish convinced robert to keep janos and his employee and robert had been known to say he kept him after he found him guilty of extorting men and making deals for half their salaries in the city watch and robert would say perhaps the next person will be worse so he wouldn't get rid of him so yeah pretty obvious peter balish convinced him on that one but i'd like to add that with this whole scene like you mentioned ned it's reminiscent in mirror of jano slinton his men taking ned into captivity at little fingers betrayal right locking him in the ice cells at the very last command. In this scene, Alistair is kind of playing that Littlefinger character, egging him on,

which really works well with this old pomegranate imagery when you think about Baelish offering Sansa the pomegranate in A Storm of Swords and the old pomegranate offering Janos kind of this, uh, yeah, come on in. You're highborn. You'll fit in great. I also thought it was interesting how we've degraded so far at the watch. Like right now, all of a sudden, out of nowhere, Janos Slint has pretty much taken command and Alistair Thorne's back and he's the boss too. Out of nowhere, they just asserted themselves as the regional

presidents of this organization. And things are descending into chaos now. If Stannis and his men were about to ride in to save the day, the Night's Watch would likely have so much infighting and not enough men that they would just fall apart. And this chapter is sandwiched by Sansa and Tyrion. Tyrion, who, like I said, is about to go on trial and is thinking about taking the Black, and Sansa, who just escaped King's Landing and is wanted for regicide

you have this great parallel of Sansa and Jon and Tyrion who are wanted for being traitors to the realm and regicide and all this stuff hmm yes great way to close good job you're a closer Chloe thanks you did it

yes and this is so weird I'm going to say something very out of character here but it makes me really excited like all this stuff makes me so excited for Stannis to come and burn Janos yeah

with his words I never think that yeah it's going to be exciting I'm actually kind of excited to see Stannis. It's cool to see him interact with Jon in this sense. And after everything Jon's just gone through and, you know, being a righteous man that shows up at the wall. So, of course, we're keeping it quiet until right this moment. But next week, we'll be doing Jon Ten in A Storm of Swords.

And Eliana, is there something special about Jon 10 in A Storm of Swords and Eliana, is there something special about John 10 in A Storm of Swords? Yes, there is something super exciting about next week we're going to have Matt from the podcast Davos Fingers joining us to talk

about John especially to talk about John's encounter and discussion with Mance Rayder. We thought that this would be nice, especially with how musical Matt is. Yes, and if you haven't heard it, he has a great little jingle song about Jon. He actually played it at Ice and Fire Con this year in the performance contest. It was so cool to hear it live. Davos Fingers has some awesome songs that they write and play and just fun filk songs. So I'm very excited to have him

on. And of course Matt is one of the OGs of the A Song of Ice and Fire reread podcast thing, you know. He and Davos Fingers. They finished it. Yeah, they finished. They finished their whole read-through. Someday we will.

When we're older. Sure. They are the OGs. They are. We read-through. Someday we will. When we're older. Sure. They are the OGs. They are. We're very excited. You guys don't want to know how much it cost us to get them on. Yeah. It cost us, I don't know, maybe a few fingers.

Thanks so much for listening, you guys. If you want to check us out online, you can check our social media. We're on Twitter, at Girls Gone Canon. You can also send us an email if you want to chat us out online, you can check our social media. We're on Twitter at Girls Gone Canon. You can also send us an email if you want to chat about the episode or something's on your mind about Ace Walk. Girls Gone Canon, gmail.com. Hit it off.

Yes, and of course, if you want to keep up with whenever any of our episodes come out, be sure to subscribe to us. You can find us on Google Play, on iTunes, on itunes on acast on spotify on stitcher and of course on podbean where all these are hosted someone else said something that we happened to be on the other week we didn't even know we were on it so i forgot what it was overcast maybe i don't know we're on it We're on it all. Just Google us, dude. Just Google it.

And as always, check out our Patreon. Patreon.com slash Girls Gone Canon. Patrons that are $5 and up are going to get a special episode in August about mentors in A Song of Ice and Fire of some of our favorite characters, mostly the Stark characters we're going to start with. This

could be a series. We don't know. We'll find out, so check it out. Patreon.com slash Girls slash girls gone canon and of course be sure to check out our his dark materials read through podcasts as well yes and as always i have been one of your hosts chloe and i've been another one of your hosts eliana thanks for listening guys bye