Girls Gone Canon Cast - ASOIAF Episode 64 - ASOS Jon X Ft. Matt from Davosfingers

Episode Date: August 30, 2019

Girls Gone Canon Episode 64 - Jon ASOS X Ft. Matt from Davosfingers GGC E64 JON X FT MATT FROM DAVOSFINGERS.mp3     Sent to treat with the "enemy", Jon is saved by the chanting of Stag Nation. --- Davosfinger's website:   http://davosfingers.com Davosfinger's twitter:  https://twitter.com/davosfingers Davosfinger's podbean:  https://scaddy.podbean.com/  Eliana's twitter: https://twitter.com/arhythmetric   Eliana's reddit account: https://www.reddit.com/user/glass_table_girl Eliana's blog: https://themanyfacedblog.wordpress.com/ Chloe's twitter: https://twitter.com/liesandarbor Chloe's blog: www.liesandarborgold.com 

Hello and welcome to Girls Gone Canon, A Song of Ice and Fire, Episode 64, John 10 in a Storm of Swords. I am one of your hosts, Chloe. A Song of Ice and Fire, episode 64. John, 10, in a storm of swords. I am one of your hosts. Chloe, you might know me from the internet as LizaNArbor on Twitter, Tumblr, and LizaNArborGold.com. And I am another one of your hosts, Eliana. You might know me as GlassTableGirl over on Reddit or the Maester Monthly podcast. Maybe you know me as Arithmetic over on Twitter. Maybe you don't.

That's fine, too. I mean, some people Twitter. Maybe you don't. That's fine too. I mean, some people don't. They don't. Good, good. But we do have someone who might know who you are, Eliana. Thankfully, on with us today. We have a guest this week. We talked about it last week. You might know him from a podcast

called Davos Fingers. Hey, Matt. Toodaloo! podcast called Davos Fingers. Hey, Matt. Toodaloo! In our notes, I was very excited to just write onion emoji repeatedly. I don't think there is an onion emoji, but I wrote it.

Believe me, there's not. I've looked on a number of occasions. I keep checking back for updates. That would be a good addition to your aesthetic. Yep, it really would be. Thanks for having me, ladies. I really am excited about

this opportunity. I don't guest a lot on other podcasts, so this is a lot of fun for me. And we just kind of assumed you were going to say yes, so you might not have said yes, is what you're telling us? Well, my fee is really high. Well, our executive producers take care of that. Right.

Yeah, my people are in touch with your people, but you might not eat next month. Yeah, well, I mean, it's my cats, so they might not eat next month. Who's really? What is a mat? It's like producers. Do you have cats? Is this your children? Are your children treating with the cats?

Yeah, your children are. That's it. Oh, my God. We're not going to get any business done this way, you guys. Matt, tell us where we can find you guys online. I know you guys have a Podbean, obviously, and a website. Yeah, all our episodes are hosted from Podbean. And you can actually get to the episodes from DavosFingers.com.

Then click on the Listen tab and you'll be able to find all of our episodes there. I think we're up to like 85 episodes or something terrible like that. Twitter is at DavosFingers. We're on Facebook. And then where else are we? Our email address is

WeAreDavosFingers at gmail.com. And we do have a Patreon program. So Patreon.com slash Davos Fingers at gmail.com and we do have a Patreon program so patreon.com slash Davos Fingers now you guys are the ones man Davos Fingers like you guys did it yeah they crossed the finish

line they finally did it and you are what we all look up to actually though but actually someday well yeah now we're all and now scott and i are standing around like john travolta and pulp fiction so what do we do now um we were just talking on twitter the other day about how like in 2014 when we started this thing we were like yeah so we'll probably be like in the middle of feast for crows or something when winds of winter comes out so it'll be perfect and then by the time we get done with

winds i bet dream will be close to being out too it's gonna be awesome guys uh so sweet sweet summer children now here we are like okay um let's do chapter by chapter through a world of ice and fire and what if we did page by page, actually, and just really get in there? No, but we're having a lot of fun. It's led to some really cool discussions for us because Scott and I have always just been like, okay, what are the next block of chapters? And it's always just been really simple of what we're going to do next. And now it's been fun to actually think about what do we want to talk about?

What's ground that maybe hasn't been covered or that we feel we can cover in an interesting way and it's been really cool so we're excited about the future the choosing has always been hard yep Chloe's about to fire me but yeah I mean like yeah you've done all of these chapters already because you thought you would be having the new book already and you actually covered these chapters about like three years ago or so and um so i was just wondering like there are some things where you and scad like disagreed on things like we're gonna talk about how john should he have killed man's maybe not i don't know but also like has your view on that changed rereading this chapter three years later is there anywhere else

where you feel like coming back to this chapter you're like oh i feel really differently about this now as a person who has grown a lot in the past three years because the next book isn't out. Yeah, I've lived some hard years between now and then. Yeah. No, but I went back and listened to Davos Fingers' coverage of this chapter, and I was surprised at how antagonistic Scott and I were towards each other back then. We've really cooled out, but we were at each other's throats a lot of the time. It was so fun. And Brooke, another co-host who's gone on to other bigger and better things, used to just sit back and just laugh at us.

She did just laugh at you. I do feel a bit different about this now. No. To answer your question about Mance and John killing him, no. John should not have killed him. Good job, John. Mance and Jon killing him, no, Jon should not have killed him. Good job, Jon. But I definitely enjoy looking at the similarities now between Jon and Mance, and maybe we'll get into it more as we discuss

the chapter. But it's fun to take a step back and look at their character and their motivation, which is something I don't think I was doing as much of three years ago. Looking forward to this. Yeah, I think it's cool to have Jon's overall thing always being, what would Ned do as that kind of beat in the back of his head? And he wasn't able to kill Ygritte. He knew he wasn't going to be able to kill Mance. It's an interesting way to look at John's character.

It is. I felt differently about John before we started reading him this way. And now I'm like, whoa whoa everything is very different it's an interesting read that's awesome that is one of the really cool benefits of doing the reread the way you two do it and what I love about it is being to really dive

into the characters motivations and stuff like that so thank you gals for doing what you're doing it's important stuff yeah well we had to spin it some way is it important stuff yeah well we had to spin it some way is it important stuff it really is it really really is speaking of important stuff we did get a pod bean comment we did and from craig mulvey would you like to talk about it yeah so thank you craig for

bringing this important this is important important stuff, in my opinion. Breaking news. Eliana's a fake nerd girl. Oh my god. So Craig asked in regards to An American Tale starring Fievel Malskowitz, whether or not it was actually Fievel who said that line. And yes, Craig brought up, I thought it was the revolution leader. She shouted, we'll waste the secret weapon, which i think scat quoted on domo's fingers the other day or like on his

personal account i don't remember as he's going on like a road trip which yes yes craig you are right it is the revolution leader my again i don't remember shouting this all the time my mother says that i did this and they watched this movie i don't know shouting this all the time. My mother says that I did this, and I watched this movie, I don't know, literally, like, not even half a lifetime ago. I was thinking half a lifetime ago. It was maybe, like, three-fourths of my life ago. Wow. I'm sad. It's just the way it should be.

Well, this isn't the series that's going to cheer you up, unfortunately, but it's the series we've got. It is. The Stark children all singing Somewhere Out There to one another. It's true, though. You know it's true. There's that song from the Stuart Little movie. I don't remember. You're Where I Belong.

I don't know that one. I didn't watch the Stuart Little, the musical. I don't know like singing about his home and crap we sang it in choir one year for some reason or another yep don't know why but we did so now i'll never forget it the things we're learning yep well let's learn some more we're gonna jump into our lightning round are you ready for your first lightning round. Are you ready for your first lightning round? Matt, is this are you excited? Yes! Get out of the bum! I'm so uncomfortable!

Well, it's a really short lightning round, so let's pop it off. Tyrion X, you raped her, you murdered her, you killed her children. Daenerys VI, betrayal! Daenerys must pass hard judgments against those that swore to never defy or fail her.

Jorah. Jaime 9. After watching Tommen hold council, Jaime watches Arya Stark depart for the north. And then Cersei and Jaime have a long-awaited talk. Really good job. Good job. You really just, you got through it. The material was excellent. Thanks. Five stars.

That leads us to John 10. John is taken from his ice cells to present himself to Janos Slint. Traitorous bastard, oathbreaker, damned. Janos commands him to prove his loyalty by meeting with mance raider and killing him but the tables turn when mance tells john he knows the state of the watch

and threatens to blow the horn of winter unless they accept them into their protection when hope looks lost a mystery army arrives to save them from the ever strong wildling armies the knights begin to shout stannannis! Stannis! Stannis! Stannis! Stannis! Oh, I thought you were going to start saying it all in a different way, but... No, I don't know. Stannis!

Yes, like that. That's what we were thinking. That is what I was thinking. Oh no, you guys are going to get the dose of the Davos Fingers toilet humor. Yeah, here we go. Oh my god. Oh, we're ready.

So the chapter starts off with the wind was blowing from the east and I don't know, I just like focusing on George's first few lines. And it's not foreshadowing, but it is interesting how many things are coming from the east throughout the series. But even within this chapter, like Stannis's army and codder pike later yeah it was hard for me not to drop the whole first quote i've been doing that lately because each john chapter has like just like a gorgeous intro of some sort of haunting prose isn't it interesting oh my gosh oh this is beautiful thanks george that last line of the paragraph where he says, across the killing ground, he could see the glimmer of a thousand campfires burning, but their lights seemed small and powerless against such gloom and cold. Right?

We're not just talking about the gloom and cold of the weather. No, the others. The hopelessness of the situation. That's beautiful. And that whole idea of things coming from the east it does work because if you keep going northeast you're gonna get hard home as well and so i think you're onto something i was thinking definitely things from the east danny's army also of course but much later on especially helping with the others and um yeah coming back to what matt was saying about the language just being so good it reminds reminds me, I think recently, right, George at Worldcon, or in one of the interviews that

have come out around the time of Worldcon was talking about how like, yeah, some of my favorite things that I wrote are things that like were action things. They were just like, I don't know, nature. And he's just really proud of how well he can do that imagery. And I'm proud of him as a person who gets to enjoy it. Yeah, I mean, his mean his food oh my gosh george is like pros king for sure pros pros cow feast for feast we should plug that again someday we keep forgetting to plug it account because we can't have a youtube fuck you're right free girls gone canon. So John rides the winch up from his ice cell, and he's ready for another serving of Janos' judgment.

The day is super grim, and he thinks that when it's over, his name is going to be cast in shade forever. I think we should make Matt read this quote aloud, and you do the John voice, because I will never let you not do it. There's no John voice. Right here. Oh, there's only right here. Okay, that's fine.

Okay, should we do it? Yeah, let's do it. Bastard children were born from lust and lies, men said. Their nature was wanton and treacherous. Once John had meant to prove them wrong, to show his lord father that he could be as good and true a son as Rob. I made a botch of that.

It's great every single time, and I have the same reaction every time. I try. I listen to your episodes, and I'm like, I'm ready for it. I love Chloe's voice, but I'm going to hold it together, and I didn't. Rob had become a hero king. If John was remembered at all, it would be as a turncloak, an oathbreaker,

and a murderer. He was glad that Lord Eddard was not alive to see his shame. Is this motions towards butterfly foreshadowing? Just put it out there. Oh boy. It could be foreshadowing. Oh boy.

Is it foreshadowing? We don't know. Yes. Is John's plot just going to be his first plot all over again? We don't know. Turns out Jon, as a sad emo boy, was never going to change. He was always going to be that. Yeah. And that's the kicker, right?

Yeah. Always making the tough decisions. And closing the whole loop that Eddard opened. Right, Yeah. Always making the tough decisions. And closing the whole loop that Eddard opened. Right. Yeah. Bummer. Just bummed. Just a little bummed.

I think it's going to be so good to read this whole story when it completes. But it's just like seeing all these sad things. I'm just like, oh, man. John. Why can't John just get a hug? Like that's someone hug him just like if that would be a nice chapter donald was still around he could just one arm hug the dude oh it'd be so good no he couldn't because john's fucking dead it's true thanks thanks we're a reread podcast that's right i i forget we can do spoilers on this one

yeah the world is your oyster right it's interesting that he calls him lord eddard right i was i noticed that instead of lord father it's almost like he's measuring up to not so much just wanting to make dad proud but wanting to fill those kind of leadership shoes in a way that his father did. And in terms of a title and a leader of men rather than just his dad, that stuck out to me. And it's interesting because as soon as all the stuff that's to come with Stannis and meeting Stannis, and he gets kind of on that level and the political level and chatting with him and hearing more about his dad, which I keep thinking it's similar to like Danny and Barristan talking about her family,

him hearing just those glimmers of true or untrue information about Ned. But he starts to act like what would Lord Eddard do? Like Lord Eddard and thinking like Winterfell this, the soldiers this. And he starts really being this pragmatic leader and analyzing what he needs to do to protect people and command armies with this battling that's coming. And of course, him dying for his choices comes back later too. Yeah, it's interesting to think about the two different sides of that, that it just came to

me now as you were mentioning that I think of like myself as a father, we were talking about my kids a little bit before we hit record on this. And that, you know, as a father, I've kind of got two sides of the coin. I've got to be kind of emotionally available and there for my children and be that guy that sits at the foot of their bed with them and talks them through everything. But then at the same token, I've got to be, you know, the father of the family, the leader, the guy that makes the decisions and, and, you know, along with my wife together. But, uh, yeah, it's interesting to balance those two sides. Sometimes you just want to be the fun dad. And then sometimes you got to like step up and go, okay, what am I going to do to make sure that I'm setting these kids up now and in the future

and making those pragmatic decisions? Like you said, that's an interesting way to look at it. And John's going through that right now. now, just in kind of a different scenario. Yeah. Yeah, he just had a baby son that's older than he is. Satin. Right. That's true. Birthed him.

He birthed him. He's about to inherit and birth an entire rest of the Night's Watch. But yeah, sometimes you got to be- And wildlings too. You got to be like their friend. And he's going to talk about this a little later with Mance. But straddle that line, like you said, of guiding your kids at the foot of their bed

and taking your children, Matt, to their first beheading. Teaching them, one day you too will do this. Kids, it's time. Look over at this, this deserter. Everything the wall touches. John's thinking about how he probably should have just stayed in the cave with egret duh

good idea we talked about this he's fucked up you don't goof uh he flexes his sword hand amen had taught him to flex his sword hand with the cold because otherwise it's going to get a little arthritic and not work well and he won't be able to you know do the fighty thing he needs to be limber if he has to murder man's raider because you know he's totally going to do that right yeah yeah be limber if he has to murder Mance Rayder. Because, you know, he's totally going to do that. Right. Yeah. Limber.

He'd been locked in the cells, in the ice cells. Horrible. Cold. For four days. Four days. I didn't remember that. Four days? Four days.

Did they feed him? Like, that's, these are questions that I wonder. Like, how are they getting food to him? Do they lower it down on a small string? Like on a fishing line? Through the cell? And the room is so small that it's too low to stand and too short to lay in. And there's this really interesting passage bit

that talks about how people aren't expected to live more than four days if they're in the ice cells. So they did max time in there. That's serious. That's serious business. Usually people don't live much longer than that in the ice cells like they're just shoving him in an ice cell to die damn okay and then he doesn't even get any recovery time it's just straight to janos and alicer after that yeah the best people in the world to see

yeah i mean it reminds me of the thing that you said last episode Chloe about how it comes in together with Tyrion's imprisonment and you were saying that and it also kind of reminds me then of like Tyrion's other imprisonment in the Eyrie and he keeps talking about how like

yeah it was fine they just put them in there because eventually what was it like the blue calls to them all eventually i was like yeah it's fucked up yeah also net right now he's like i guess in this scene a crow in a cage he's a burb something interesting eliana that you were just talking about that burb in a cage thing makes me think of sansa escaping from her cage and then wait for, here's another good one. Tyrion's imprisonment right now and how it's alongside this.

Tyrion's champion loses when Jon's champion, Stannis, I guess, wins. It was an unknown champion. You know, they both have champions they didn't expect. I was thinking you were gonna liken Stannis and Jaime. Like, Stannis coming in with that last minute save

The way Jaime and Varys do For Tyrion No but that's interesting too but no I wasn't I wasn't really thinking about them so Now I am Is that a ship? And here we are Did you just say was that a ship?

Is that a ship? Is Jaime and Stannis? Everything's a ship? Is that a ship? Is Jaime and Stannis? Oh my god. Everything's a ship. That's true. Everything. They march Jon back to the King's Tower, and Janos says he wants to hang Jon, but Aemon would not allow it. So Aemon wrote Cotter Pike, sent off an owl. Wait, that's the wrong series.

And he shows Janos and Al and alicer and he's like john's no turn cloak i told cotter pike it's actually a it's actually a really smart political move for amen to reach out to cotter pike for multiple reasons because yes of course cotter pike's like a respected person within the watch he like bans this like very important part of it and Thorne and Slint have to kind of battle him a little and Thorne understands that and can't go against him when it comes to John but also I think what makes it really interesting is that Thorne and Slint keep using John's bastardy as like the basis for their whole argument of John is treacherous and this is not an argument they're going to be able to use with any sort of like validity against cotter pike cotter pike if he shows up because cotter pike of course is a bastard and will not be having any of that because that

would be an insult to him as well well and cotter pike's kind of like super violent yes he's been like supposed to be a super violent asshole and he's illiterate so like his maester has to read and write for him and he's supposed to be super bold he's like like the castle blackie uh umber right like that's almost like like i don't know he's just like basically loud and mean and rough so like you don't want to piss this guy off this is the one no probably don't want yeah to do him. Don't use the bastard argument with him. That's a good point. Yeah. Anyway, so Alistair, who has no respect, but kind of, he's trying to play it a little respectful here, says that Amon's just lived too long and his wits have gone.

Of course. Rude. Right. And then Slint goes, hey, Slint said said a blind man with a chain about his neck who does he think he is amen targaryen john thought a king's son and a king's brother and a king who might have been but he said nothing so huge huge irony from this, that thought, Aemon Targaryen, a king's son and a king's brother and a king who might have been, but he said nothing. So, I feel like that's a total nod because, of course, Jon basically, I mean, Rhaegar could have been king. So, let's look at it as king's son, a king's brother, Rob, and then a king who might have been Kane. So let's look at it as King's son, a King's brother, Rob,

and then a King who might have been. That's totally a straight up just, oh, Jon Snow line. This is all Jon. V-meta. Yeah, it's V-meta. And it's also that fairy tale, fairy princess kind of trope

that if only they knew they were mistreating the secret prince or princess. You know, I find that really interesting. Yeah, that's the one thing that I want from the series so badly and it's never going to give it to me. I really don't think they will where Thorne finds out like, oh no, I've been

mistreating Rhaegar's son. I fought for Rhaegar this whole time. Yeah, he fought for the Targaryens. He was a dragon. But that also just goes to, like, I guess in the end you look at it as they're not really loyal. It's just that's the most prosperous times. It's the people that are like, oh, when Rhaegar was in office,

or oh, when Carter did this. I mean, like, they're all the same. Wow, she got real. Yeah. I'm just saying, like, they're all the same. Wow, she got real. Yeah. I'm just saying, like, whatever one enabled his behavior was probably good to him. For Thorn, yeah. Yeah, he was probably like,

cool, I'm being enabled, I'm into that, good enough. He doesn't care about the geese slash gander. The geese. He's out there caring about his arils you know his pomegranate arils what is an aril that's what the little pomegranate seeds are oh yeah you didn't know no no i thought you knew no i don't you you're the one who knows things about food you're saying you don't know things about food? Are you on the record saying this? I don't know.

I know some things. How is this spelled? What's an arrow? A-I-R... I spelled this fucking wrong. Something L? Arrow? I know wild berry Skittles are the best Skittles.

Oh my god. This I know. Tropical and tropical Sour Patch Kids are the worst kind of Sour Patch Kids. It's A-R-I-L-S's A-R-I-L-S. A-R-I-L-S. Yeah, an extra seed covering, typically colored and hairy or fleshy. The red fleshy cup around a yew seed. Me and Matt, mmm, immediately.

Hairy and fleshy. Mmm, yep, yep, yep. Anyway, Janos would never let anyone say that he was not fair, though, so he offers Jon a fair chance. He's like, go meet with Mance. Then we'll know your loyalty. Fair chance. Right, fair. Fuck that guy.

They think Mance trusts Jon because they're idiots, and they think that's gonna make it easier, and Jon's like like it's nothing like that like i betrayed them like really badly actually i left them high and fucking dry john realizes though that this is all alicer's planning he's the brains of the operation so one way or another alicer is gonna be rid of john you know like that's his plan with this he's like okay well if shit goes sour it goes sour for john john says he'll go and janos interrupts him

adding my lord to the end of the sentence i know john responds with i'll go my lord but you are making a mistake my lord after everything every single thing he says he's saying my lord after it's just the biggest fucking middle finger yeah absolutely and i don't know if janos picks up on it or not we don't get his reaction to it but i mean like they don't care if like you said nance is mad because they just want him dead and like john's like what what am I going to do? This is as much about killing Mance as it is about killing Jon, right? So they really don't care. They just want Jon Snow dead.

And if he can knock out Mance at the same time. Here's another thing that Jon O'Slint needs to, this needs to stop. Things that must go. Jon O'Slint referring to himself in the first person. He knows he has no chance now that Jono Slint has come. Oh my God. Let me say it again. He says it a couple more times, but I need you to stop right now.

I need you to stop right now. Jono Slint does not make terms with lawless savages, Lord Snow. No, he does not. Oh, I'm sorry. Jono Slint is like a troll bridge. Oh my God. I never noticed that. Yeah, there is like sometimes that thing about people who talk about themselves in third person like that. Yeah, well, you see it at that dinner with Tyrion.

That's why Tyrion so easily is just like, off you fuck. Tra-la-la, get out of here, off you fuck. He's the worst. He's just like this little rodent. He's a rodent of a man. And, God, his death is nice. Not for him, though. No, not really.

But, yeah, it's... I think you were saying something a few episodes ago with J.R. Mormont and how they were, like, focused on the wrong enemy. Janos and Alice are here. Yeah, wrong enemy. They like refuse to believe that the zombies are real or care about it. Right.

They're not listening to any logic or reason. They're just too focused on Jon. Yeah. And this is exactly what happens in corporate environments. I'm going through this at work right now. I'm a worm. Focused on the wrong enemy and they just want to take down like someone and then like you still have a fucked up operation after you know what i

mean like just horrible like what are you doing like focus on the real enemy john's john's chill also john's like an injured animal right now like he's a wounded gazelle what is he gonna do he's down for the count yeah that's why they left him in those cells right and then took him right to right to the uh from the from the ice to the fire was to was because he'd be weak he would be yeah run down but what cowards yeah just do it just commit the treason and do it you fucking well they do eventually so So never mind. I just realized, now that you guys are talking about him being injured, right?

He's got the leg injury, he's got the injury from, you know, he was fucking protecting the wall for three ass chapters. Whereas Janoslin and Alistair, where? Did nothing. Haven't done a thing. But it's- They were on a vacation at, you know, corporate. They were, but like,, you know, corporate. They were, but it's just like what happens again to Ned.

His leg is injured, then he's imprisoned for a while and brought back out for his basically death sentence. And that's what Jon's getting here, his death sentence. And we were all like, when we first watched a red thing, we were like, something's going to come and save Ned, right? And something does come and save Jon, but nothing comes for Ned. Dad. Dad, no. Yeah. like something's gonna come and save ned right and something does come and save john but nothing comes for ned dad dad no yeah our honor means no more than our lives so long as the realm is safe corinne halfhand had said in the frost fangs he must remember that whether he slew mance or only tried and failed the free folk

would kill him even desertion was impossible if he'd been so inclined to mance he was a proven liar and betrayer john's not about that john's john's not about that he he wants to be but this is what i realized about him and mance is, and I'm maybe jumping the gun here. We're getting a little ahead of myself. John and Mance want the same thing. They want to save lives. And to John, honor really, maybe the definition for John is different than it is to what Corrin Halfhand was referring to. To John, saving lives is more important than, finger quotes, honor.

He's turned his cloak twice now in one book, going to the wildlings and then from the wildlings back to the Night's Watch. And it's all out of saving lives. And lives to him are equal. They are the men of the night's watch. They are the wildlings. They are everyone who the others are hunting. And so,

yeah, I feel like this is John keeps telling himself our honor means no more than our lives. Remembering what Corrin said and Corrin was well intentioned saying that, but John's on kind of like this higher plane than everyone else. And he's not about that. Even if he thinks he is. Yeah. And the way this is kind of framed in this passage, I could see this coming back as a,

as another passage in the future book. You know, there's a lot in there. The free folk would kill him if he tried and failed. Desertion was impossible. I mean, these are just the same situations john is continually finding himself in yeah you think he would learn poor guy like it's john snow on the very bad no good horrible day and he's just trying to make the best choice for everyone and they just want to kill him for it yeah yeah and i mean he does kind of learn that lesson initially right or the 101 course right of everyone is all people from corinne halfhand when he's like yeah actually mance was my brother i love him yeah yeah yeah yeah that's the saddest corinne and mance's friendship is so sad yeah

this read through really got it to me same corin corin's like a top three dad for john top three dad wait why don't we rank john's dads one day we should do a dad bowl the dad's episode dad bowl oh my god next year a song of madness we are doing a special that Dad bracket. Wait, wait, wait. Wait? You mean a song of dadness? Oh my gosh. It can be the follow-up like a few months later, right? In June for Father's Day.

Or maybe you just replace the song of madness entirely. See what happens. It'll be much shorter. Oh my gosh, yeah. You could do animal theme next year. Let's watch the world burn. Yeah. You're going to either way

i can't imagine what your mentions look like during that it's horrible it's insane so much quote tweeting it's insane and if you listeners don't know a song of madness is a thing that davos fingers does every year it's incredibly fun and they basically just do a bracket it's yeah it's a time fun fun maybe for like the five minutes, and then it just dissolves, devolves entirely. The last week of it is everyone just literally throwing e-shit at each other. Yep, yep. We get so serious. We didn't block a single person this year, though.

Oh. So it's been getting better i blocked every single person that said something mean about sansa every year for the past four years um and then sometimes i unblock them like to see if they're not dog shit anymore no they're still dogs you know who you are some of you might be listening you're still blocked oh my god so yes it's a bracket and people vote and it's a time and maybe this coming year will be the year that nimble dick crab wins i don't know maybe it'll be the year strong bell was who for some reason didn't make it past the first round wins he deserved a lot better yeah we we scott and i are definitely rethinking you know the way that we do it in terms of like a normal bracket in like a sports ball thing is the worst team plays the best team and the lowest ranked team plays the highest ranked team.

And then you work your way, you whittle away the teams that way. And it's just not fair to have strong Belwas going up against Jon Snow or something. So we're trying to think of ways that we can maybe keep some of these fun characters in there a little longer but we'll see it is strong literally get it because i was i was really proud of myself just now you have my permission to fire her pin the blue ribbon upon her chest thank you uh but i mean i get i guess one way you can do that is a song of dadness. Yeah, a song of dadness. There you go. I mean, he's got enough for it.

He's got enough. That's true. John walks amidst corpses, wondering if Mance will come to parlay in no man's land and sees Tormund. Tormund tells John, Mance won't like the color of your cloak. And it's real likely he won't want to treat with you. Jon is like, too bad, because I'm what you get. And Tormund's like, all right, kid, you want to ride with the horse? And he's like, no, my boss will get mad if they see me. I do think it's interesting that Tormund doesn't resent Jon for his actions.

He's like, whatever. Good to see you, bro. Cheers. Yeah, I love it. Dude, you're back yeah they even keep that whole like stint with him later on where man's is like no you're not allowed at the tent oh my god torment might actually be one of the best adapted characterized characters in the game of thrones hit tv show in my opinion Because they actually kept a lot of his book stuff. Yeah. He's a lot younger. He's younger, yeah.

And the kids, the kids thing. He's less of a... He's less of, like, John's dad slash uncle, right? He's kind of, I think, John's uncle here, if Mance is his dad, if you think about it. If you think about it. This is my contribution.

They discuss the battle and those who lost like magnum mighty rip john tells him that also donald noy is the one who slayed him and he was a one-armed smith because tormond's like he must have been a great lord and he's like he was a blacksmith it's important it's important to donald noy that he be remembered as a blacksmith important to donald noy that he be remembered as a blacksmith yeah absolutely i do love that though because torment offers a skin of mead to john then and he's like to mag the mighty and donald noy and they toast yeah pour it out for sure it's uh it's sweet though and it goes back to that idea of how manson john unite in the idea of life all life mattering basically you know like not just

wildlings or not just people from the kingdom uh they find a common ground which is really really good right it could still happen boy speaking of life mattering the uh the body count is a little is a little interesting for me. 200 wildlings dead, but yet a dozen giants got it. Yeah. It seems crazy to me. So is it a dozen giants out of that 200? Do you understand what I'm asking?

Yeah, I hear you. 200 dead and a dozen giants is what Tormund says. Oh, so that sounds like...12 dead yeah i don't know i guess it could go either way man i guess no one all those arrows he shot and everything and all that stuff all the resources they expended defending the wall 200 crazy 200 yeah 200 and like they get to like as as john pointed out in a previous chapter, he's like, well, shit, that's what, 200 dead. And they get to send fresh, like, sprightly warriors to the wall every day.

And then they're just bringing the same tired ass kids. Mm-hmm. Back every time. yeah if they were to hit somebody with every single arrow they had left like 100 accuracy on shooting they still wouldn't be able to they'd still run out of arrows before they they wouldn't be able to thin it they wouldn't have been able to thin that many yeah there's thousands yep i guess they could pull some they could pull some right from the scarecrows there you go true let's buy let's buy a few more suggestion there you go you know but it's like they don't have enough men too yeah i mean on their side they've got men going down too and yeah and what's well

so the wildlings their their initial idea is you know they wanted steer to go bring down the wall they were hoping that mance would be able to get there and just walk through by the way they divvied things up. And Steer did bring the wall down on his head when he died. So good job, Steer. Yeah. He was like, all right. I never really got Jon's entire beef with him, to be honest. I mean, I did, as we've discussed in previous episodes.

Yeah, but he was on not he wasn't like rattle shirt all right and then torment also asked john like so how's your leg and he's like well i got that from egret actually as she was dead oh yeah and he does point out to torment he's like it wasn't it wasn. Oh, I didn't expect him to, you know, immediately start a conversation with, it wasn't me, but Ygritte's dead. Yeah. And then the conversation drifts to Tormund's children. They talk about, I guess, how Tormund has a daughter, Munda, who was stolen by Longspear. And how apparently all four of his sons had slept through it, except for one, maybe, who just, like, didn't put up a fight. But Munda did. And Longspe spear broke his lip open in the process and then this reminds john of egret so he laughs and i've just had this crazy breakthrough reading this that the

name munda is derived from torment's name of torment torund. Oh my god. Tormunda. Munda. And this is just very important. Yeah, because other kids are like Torwick and Torwind and Torchwood or whatever. Yeah, it's kind of like, you know, Tywin, Tygat, Tyrion, which is pronounced a little different, but still got

that same letters. And I was like, wow, so even they do this. Yeah. Munda. See, they could have things in common oh things in the realm that's what george is trying to show us through munda we all want the same things yep to name our children uh variations of their name i used to want to name my kids ellie and anna that's not a joke i kind of did or, if a boy. I thought Eli was a good name. I still think Eli is a good name. Eli's solid.

I got a nephew named Eli. He's cute. He's a solid kid. Yeah, he's done all right. That would be cute. And then eventually, if he has kids, he can start naming them with, like, EL names. And then, like, your whole entire generation can change to it. I'm doing this in The Sims right now, so I mean.

Oh. Same thing. Do I have a line of children named with variations of my name in your Sims game? No, but you can. I know I can. That's why I asked. I know. Elroy. Elman. It'll be like some phrase.

Elron Hubbard. Ellis. John starts to think about Ygritte because she was fond of long spear rick uh and he he's hoping that rick and munda are having a great time together that they there should be some joy somewhere in the world and then he thinks of this like little conversation this is totally healthy obviously because he's in 100 helped shape but he thinks about this conversation back and forth and how it would go if she was there right now

really healthy as i say it out loud i'm like john how do i explain this to people that are listening to my podcast like can you be normal and sane you know nothing john snow egret would have told "'I know that I'm going to die,' he thought. "'I know that much, at least.' "'All men die,' he could almost hear her say. "'And women, too, and every beast that flies or swims or runs. "'It's not the when of dying that matters, it's the how of it, Jon Snow.' "'Easy for you to say,' he thought back.

"'You'd die brave in a bottle bottle storming the castle of a foe i'm going to die a turncloak and a killer nor would his death be quick unless it came on the end of man's sword is this foreshadowing it is on multiple levels like for example john's wrong he doesn't die right now typical yeah but yeah I just thought a lot of the language here the things Ygritte's saying

I can see them coming back into play later and just in general him I'm going to die a turn cloak and a killer oh John and then his death not being quick it's going to be prolonged with his like what maybe exile yeah yeah absolutely yeah um there's a lot of deep shit in these john chapters i don't know if you guys have noticed have you been reading them this is the analysis i'm here for this is hashtag deep sad yeah it's too deep hashtag like

give me season eight it's easier it's easier than god betrayal but yeah there's a definite counterpoint in here too in what eager to saying once more to like that men's lives have meaning not their deaths because she's like I mean maybe it does like how you go out how you choose to do it if you do it like standing up for your beliefs that's meaningful if you make it count

although the Donald the Donald Noy death that they were just talking about yes exactly or the Corrin Halfhand death well and that's the thing they just did their duty they didn't balk they did what was good for their realm they knew like they had to do what they had to do to protect people and they just did it and it wasn't even like a heroic like i'm going to do this now he said in a resounding voice it's like a don't know i left

to go defend the gate yeah he's like i need i need did he say? I need two spearmen and two bowmen. Let's go. That's it. And that was the last thing they heard of him. It's awesome. That is, I guess, all they needed to an extent. It evened out against the giant. Yeah, losing that man.

Yep. And so then they reach the mess of tents and the disorganization that is the remaining wildlings. Many ignore Jon, but a lot of them come out to stare at him. And he's like, wow, look at all these different kinds of people. And then Mance is flanked by Varamyr, Varamyr's shadow cat, his two lean wolves, because Varamyr apparently rolls very deep. And then Harma dog's head. very deep and then harma dog's head but you know it's very cinematic actually as he comes up to them because then vance is in the center with his cloak rippling his black and red oh yeah and the

wind yeah it's a it's kind of menacing though when you think like if you just close everyone close our eyes for a second ready you guys us us here on this call yeah my eyes are closed do you see the clothes just rippling in the air yeah yeah but harma with the oh my god did you just call vance daddy wow this was an internal exercise matt and here we are this is a guided meditation anyways i could just see Harma in my head with like the dog on the stick and like Varamyr with the shadow cat and the wolves and just like snarling and I don't know it's just like a very mean scary place to have to go walk to yeah uh in front of his white fur covered tent yeah I wouldn't wouldn't want to, with all the crazy free folk all around there,

some of the people that have the painted face and some of the crazy helms and shit, and Jon's just like, hello, I'm limping up the drive. You've got the, is it the Hornwoods? Who don't wear feet? Who don't wear shoes? Those little soles of their feet.

Yeah, the horny soles. The hobbitses they got horny souls oh man okay wow wow that's what George wrote that is what he wrote I mean big mood yeah I'm quoting the books

yeah um Matt would you it's scary it's a scary thing do you want to be daddy hmm I there are objections It's scary. It's a scary thing. Do you want to be daddy? Okay, here we go, daddy. There are objections. This is maybe one of the luddest episodes we've had already. And what's the common denominator? It's me, so here we go.

It's you. All right. What does man say? You must be very brave or very stupid john snow to come back to us wearing a black cloak i love that line that was like a great man's line in general just you must be stupid or brave one of the two he's like could be both a lot of times it is both yeah a lot of times it is both probably Probably both, yeah. Harma and Varamir are like, he sucks, you should just kill him. Like, we told you to kill him. I don't know why you haven't.

And Tormund is like, no, no, let me speak some sense and fairness and logic into you. And they're like, okay, crow lover. Crow lover. Do you guys ever cast characters from the books with actual actors and stuff? If they're not in the television show? Yeah. I do it even if they are, bitch. Atta girl.

Do what I want. Harma Dog's Head for me is the villain mom in Goonies. She's the trunchbull from fucking... Oh, Matilda. Oh, she's the trunchbull from uh fucking oh matilda that's what i see for harma damn these are good thanks and veramir for me i don't even know the actor's name i should he's the he plays the dwight character on um the uk version of the office little thin guy with blonde hair yeah you know i'm talking about yeah all i can see for varamir right now in my head is like bishami oh he would do good in that role

though oh my god imagine imagine the prologue chapter with bishami he would act the fuck out of that oh my gosh you're welcome that's your Oh my gosh. I'm like staring off into space right now. It would be really good. It would be really good. The part where the eagle goes up in flames and Buscemi's just like. Oh my god. Yeah, so that's your treat. That's everyone's treat they get.

And here we go. The skin changer was gray-faced, round-shouldered and and bald, a mouse of a man with a wolfling's eyes. Once a horse is broken to the saddle, any man can mount him, he said in a soft voice. Once a beast's been joined to a man, any skin changer can slip inside and ride him. Oral was withering inside his feathers, so I took the eagle for my own. But the joining works both ways, Warg. Oral lives inside me now, whispering how much he hates you.

And I can soar above this wall and see with eagle eyes. This is lewd. Yeah, it was very sexual. It really was, though. I guess Warging and skin changing is like sexual. really is which is kind of weird especially with the brandon hodor stuff because you are like making the animal

submit to you so it's really weird it's like bdsm this is like some furry shit yes sex sex is about making a connection whether it's physical or. And that's very much what skin changing is. I mean, you literally become one flesh, right? And that's definitely a way that marriage and sex is described biblically. But it also reminds me that another thing that's kind of got sexual language mine and I'm not going to dox him who used to come to my reread book clubs pointed out that the language is very

sexual when Daenerys mounts Drogon in the dragon pit and she's like yes yes take me higher yes faster higher whatever and it's very sexual so it's interesting that both skin changing and dragon riding are so lewd and humanity is sexual it's just george wrote this so george is very sexual as we have heard his like meeting paris story and uh different george is sexual apparently

because all this is about sex apparently It's just underlying sex themes. It's all about sex. Skin changing is fucking. R plus L equals J, fucking. It's all about sex. Jon Snow, R plus L equals J, which means fucking. The Lord's kiss. The Lord's, see, exactly.

That's why it's not called the King's kiss, you know? Yeah, exactly. It's the Lord's kiss. lord see exactly that's why it's not called the king's kiss you know yeah exactly it's the lord's kiss oh my god so it's like at this point i feel like it's 120 certain we're gonna get john through ghost probably right we have to feels like it it'd be great like this right here is a whole info dump about it is what I feel like. Like, oh, by the way, here's all this skin changer like intel that I'm going to just dump on a page just because I have to establish it exists. Yeah. And I am curious now what this means, like because Varamir is talking about how now Aura lives inside of him. And like, is Jon going to then live on in Bran a little? Like that's unnerving in its own way.

Or is like, another thing that's unnerving is like, Varamyr going to live on in Jon or someone else also? Because Varamyr is a fucking mess, right? But like for someone to incorporate that, especially if like someone's like, I need more wolves. Because there's like three wolves in him and his pack. And I don't know, know is that i think you're on to something with that john living on in brand to an extent i wonder if we're not going to have

anything john obviously for the first bit but maybe brand because brand's gonna be probably plugged into the weirwood at this point he's gonna be like all the time logged on like like me on twitter like never logs off you know what i mean like brand's just gonna be in there just kind of like feeling around in your wood.net and like moving things and seeing things and being like hey that's john like it's like cerebro from x-men you know just like oh there he is i found john why is john's essence floating around oh hey John yeah that's how I feel about it oh hi

Brad I'm dead so we might get John through Bran yes lives on slipping inside of him writing him what Baromir said it not me and here it goes thanks a lot George Mance tells John that like they know dude What? Baromir said it, not me. And here it goes.

Mance tells Jon that they know, dude. There's no supplies. There's no people. You guys are fucked. Slim to none. And he's like, come on in! Come hang out! Everyone else get the fuck out, especially you, Tormund. Except for Dala and Val. Val attends a

very pregnant Dala, whose time for giving birth is very near. She's a little overripe. It's time to push that bun out the oven. Oh, my God. Jon is so courteous, and he's like, Val, I'm sorry for Jarl's death. And Val's like, he climbed too fast.

Yep, big mood. More like climax to what? Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh, my gosh. More like climax to what? Oh my god. Oh my god. Oh my gosh. Probably. Stop. Stop.

John kept his face as still as ice. Foul enough to slay a man in his tent under truce. Must I murder him in front of his wife as the child is being born? He closed the fingers of his sword hand. Mance was not wearing armor armor but his own sword was sheathed on his left hip and there were other weapons in the tent daggers and dirks a bow and a quiver of arrows a bronze-headed spear lying beside that big black horn john sucked in his breath a war horn a bloody great war horn but man says it's the horn of winter and that this was

actually the one you know this is it it's the horn of winter and that this was actually the one. This is it. It's the one that was used to wake giants from the earth and allegedly bring down the wall. I told you it's all about sex. I was right. You always are. Thank you.

That's on record. John remembers Ygritte says that they never found the Horn of Winter, and Mance is like, yeah, I keep secrets from people I don't trust, which is everybody. And Jon's like, why didn't you use it if you had it all along? You could have stopped all this. It was Dalla who answered him. Dalla, great with child, lying on her pile of furs beside the brassiere. We free folk know things you kneelers

have forgotten sometimes the short road is not the safest john snow the horned lord once said that sorcery is a sword without a hilt there's no safe way to grasp it i should have said that more in the throes of labor right sometimes the short road is not the safest john snow do you want to do it again? In the Throes of Labor? There's no safe way to grasp it! Dude, Della's a fucking badass. She's just

out here dispensing knowledge while trying to put a child out right now. Sucks, because, cause you know she dies oh thanks a lot Chloe no prob but

yeah I we're gonna get back to the sorcery part I know that people want to talk about this but what stood out to me was that line about like the short road is not the safest that was so wise i wonder if like this idea actually came from dallas she's like man you can't just fucking bring down the wall that's stupid but i mean like a lot of a song of ice and fire is about this right like

especially in this third book a lot of it focuses on you know tywin lannister who was all about taking these like very very effective but short paths that were so cruel and it left this entire legacy over the rest of his house and the rest of the story and we're gonna see other characters like Doran and John Connington decide to follow in his footsteps. And then you're gonna see that I guess maybe especially with Tyrion and together with this idea of fire consuming with Daenerys choosing fire and blood at the end of the fifth book and walking that

path of conquering over I mean rebuilding any society is long hard work whether it's in Meereen whether it's in real life that's the unfortunate thing and like a lot of stories don't talk about this especially in fantasy they hinge it all on like one special magical person's gonna solve all the shit but other stories like kind of address this like in

foundation or i would even assert i think the dragon prince by aaron ehaz head writer and director on avatar the last airbender really great show on netflix absolutely check it out they're going towards this that like even in sorcery right, the work of changing and improving a society is really long, dedicated work. It's decades. Yeah, it's like in Parks and Rec with Leslie. Yes!

With the merger. She wanted it done in a day, and everybody that she talks to is like, it takes 10 to 15 years, and that's true. It's just how society you can't just snap your fingers um it's like in crusader kings 2 in the game of thrones mod or in the actual game if you want to prestilitize a region you know and be like we're changing our religion

they all freak out you can't just do crap like that and what's interesting with that is that line comes as a warning in the story from dala, especially as Stannis and his army and who everyone is worshipping R'hllor now and Melisandre ride inwards. That's the warning. They don't have R'hllor this far north. That's the warning for the incoming army and king. This line totally gives us that heads up.

Yeah. Yeah, Melisandre loves her shortcuts and her sorcery, obviously. I mean, it's literally the class that she chose but yeah yep her little her little box of potions and powders and stuff yes her little magic powders yep yeah um yeah so man shows that he's then thinking about saving his people and that's why he kept that shortest and like potentially the most dangerous because it it's kind of mutually assured destruction if he does that right um yeah i mean he brings the wall down the others get over the wall too so yeah he's like i'm not an idiot it's the nice way or the mean way but he's got

to do something and that's what I really like about Mance. I have to do something. Yeah. Yeah. At least he didn't just cower behind the wall with his people, you know, and just like wait for them to get killed off one by one and turned into others. And it's, I like that he really respects Dala. And like, even though obviously like the king beyond the wall title is kind of a joke to him um yeah he's leading these people and you know the queen basically dallas the queen

it's more important obviously he's leading a free people and i think that's what he thinks is most important but dala is like giving protection uh this this form of protection to mance here because john is of course he doesn't want to stab mance in front of dala that's awful and kill off the father of this baby that's about to come into the world which of course the irony is that dala does die but you know he's there is a death in this tent it's dala it's not mance um but we haven't really seen a lot of queens give good wisdom and counsel right in this story we haven't seen this kind of dynamic of kings that listen to their queens and queens give good wise counsel that's not something you see often in a song of ice and fire in any of the history or the annals you alice and targaryen

it's like what the biggest one we hear about he doesn't uh he there aren't a lot of big queen figures that were married to targaryen kings or in current that were wise. I think that's mostly like, especially after the dance, because Visenya and Rhaenys were very much like, almost completely equal to Aegon in terms of the policymaking and ruling of the kingdoms. But yes, absolutely. and ruling of the kingdoms. But yes, absolutely. And to be specific, you're saying that you don't see queens giving that counsel to kings

because we do see a lot of queens doing their own... Counseling themselves. Doing their thing. Doing for yourself, girl. Doing politics, yeah. I think of Eddard and Catelyn, but that's not a queen and king scenario.

But Catelyn to Robb. Catelyn to Robb Catelyn to Rob. She gives good counsel to him. Yeah. And he doesn't always listen. Because, I mean, what 16-year-old boy, or 16-year-old in general, does. You got that to look forward to, Matt? And moreover, it's really, I even mean you don't hear, like, think of the songs.

How many songs are there written about good queens? It's Alice Ann is the big one. And then you don't hear of all these little side queens in the story, et cetera, et cetera. And you hear about like Naries, for example. But I mean, you just don't hear about the show did like Marjorie Terrell do going and, you know, going to the orphanages and giving the food out and telling them stories all day long and blah, blah. And surely there will be songs probably someday about that, I'm sure, written. But you just don't get to see it up close and personal in a POV. And Dalla actually gives good counsel.

It's really a shame that she is the loss that comes from this in the end. Yeah. Jon is confused because there are so many fucking wildlings against the very few watchmen left. And also there's another threat besides the wall. It's the others. Remember these people. And Manta's like, yeah, no one's been able to survive them. Not the Ice Clans, not the Giants.

I haven't. I mean, I'm standing standing here but like the people that i was with and so then he offers a deal to john he will give them the horn for passage past the wall so you two are gonna do this all right oh it's i've decided this for john yeah i've decided this for the two of you all right i'm the'm ready. I'm the director. Here we go. You have to get your straight face on here, man. Come on. Get with the times. No laughing.

I know it's hard, but you laugh, you lose. You can kill your enemies, John said bluntly. But can you rule your friends? If we let your people pass, are you strong enough to make them keep the king's peace and obey the laws? Whose laws? The laws of Winterfell and King's Landing? Mance laughed. When we want laws, we'll make our own. You can keep your king's justice, too.

And your king's taxes. I'm offering you the horn, not our freedom. We will not kneel to you. How funny, like, obviously we don't know if this horn will do anything and you should definitely be wary of it but like that's a lot to uh to let through just for a fucking piece of yeah um i don't know and then it's just like party south of the wall right like that's some bullshit trickery. That's like rumbled stilt skin, you know?

Like, what? They come waltzing through the wall, Earth, Wind, and Fire's playing, and they're just like, here we come! Oh my god. Earth, Wind, and Fire's blood. Giants on horn for like hours. If the Night's Watch

refuses this deal that Mance is giving them in three days time torment will blow the horn of winter man says that's the threat um i don't know where matt wants to have this discussion i know that you're saying uh you feel that mance and john have a lot in common do you want to do that here do you want to do that later what what what does your heart tell you oh anywhere around here because like here's good especially with like that discussion of like can you rule your friends and like whatever yep totally um if you want to drop those thoughts now or if you want it

later i i leave you you're in charge of your own fucking story i feel so much freedom here compared to Scott. He tells me exactly what to say and when to say it. Does he really? Is Scott your daddy? Only when I want him to be. It's interesting, though, to look at these two and compare them. There comes that point where

mance says you know i've got enough men here we already talked about this i could totally i could send my men we could send my mammoths we could dig out the gates of the castles you've abandoned we could do it all i have enough people to do that all at once i could go to every castle and do that and we could take it over and john says well, why don't you? And it notes that he could have pulled out his sword and killed him at that point. So I don't know if Mance was like refilling his beverage or something, but he said he wanted to hear what the wildling had to say. And what does Mance say? He says, blood. I'd win in the end, but you'd bleed me and my people have bled enough. And that's where Jon and Mance kind of converge, where they come

together, is that they're looking out for their people. Mance doesn't want to be king for king's sake. He said he kind of makes fun of the fact that he's the king beyond the wall. He's not out to rule. He's out to unite these people and save them. That's what he wants to do. Same thing with Jon. He's not out to become the Lord Commander. He's not out to – he's not necessarily trying to turn cloak and betray people and do all this stuff that Alistair and Jonos are accusing him of. He's just out to save people. And that's the motivation that it comes down to in the end with these guys. And there's lots of other stuff coming into John too with him wanting to do right

by his father and Lord Eddard or Lord Eddard and everything. But in the end, it's just about saving as many people as you can. And it's amazing how simple that is. But usually those core motivators are the most simple. And that's what it is. They both value life. And I appreciate that about those two. I pitiate it. It makes me think of, you know, the free folk and how they want to keep their freedoms and they don't want to kneel to anyone. And obviously we have Rob as king in the north and Catelyn urged him, you know, like, it's time, you know, make this whole compromise Mance and Jon came to. They're like, look, we're bleeding. You're bleeding.

We can't keep doing this. Let's stop. Good rulers would stop and renegotiate and shake hands and say, this is what needs to be done for the people. You look at the Dance of the Dragons and all that bloodshed. Totally. Everyone knows how I'm very, you know, I just think that maybe they should have shut the fuck up and married each other and gotten it done with because they owed it to the realm like that's what they should have done from the very start it sucks and it's bullshit it should have been in Rhaenyra's name and Aegon could have been like it could have been a matrilineal marriage between the two it could

have been matrilineal and Aegon doesn't have the line continue from him it goes from Rhaenyra but they should have because it was for the people like you should not have been doing that the dance of the dragon's a perfect example chloe perfect yes love it there's just all that bleeding and so i feel like i don't know i feel like something in like you know cadillan urged rob's neil you know like she she was great with the guidance just like aliana was just saying she's definitely somebody that we saw advising politically and john is probably this isn't the last time he'll do that he'll kneel you know to power and say that but also i do feel like mance really should understand obviously he has to kneel a little bit too in this compromise which he does get we do get to that eventually uh but he's being cocky right here good for him though

he is yep yeah they both want the same things, and that's the title of a Craig Finn record. Craig Finn's my favorite songwriter of all time, and they want the same things, which is life. They want their people to live. Good leaders recognize that. And both good leaders have similar challenges. I like this line. I like all the similarities that you've pointed out in terms of their motivations of what they want. But a challenge with all that is then can you rule your friends as John asks, because he's asking it of Mance. And we don't see that answer on Mance's part because of the way that his storyline ends up going.

see that answer on Mance's part because of the way that his storyline ends up going. So we don't get that answer for him, especially... We kind of have an answer that Mance is like, I don't give a fuck. Like, we're gonna do whatever we want, whatever. And John, though, has to actually deal with this himself and answer this question himself when he becomes Lord Commander in a few chapters. when he becomes Lord Commander in a few chapters. And so Jon's actually absolved himself of

killing Mance at this point and is instead now focused on like, alright, we're gonna destroy the horn. Fuck this compromise. And then, what is this? It's another horn? Pew! Pew! Pew! Pew! Pew! Pew! Pew!

That's what it was that'd be cool if the horn sounded like that that's pretty much that's what every Stannis fan on the internet thinks that horn sounds like oh Scat's gonna be like we should get that for when Scat comes on please do guys oh my gosh that would be so awesome

I will please do guys oh my gosh that would be so awesome i will yeah yeah they uh they prepare for the onset john is like i don't really know what's going on is this like people from east watch what's happening and veramir looks ahead to see who it is men on horses and steel and black ride to them. Mance accuses John of it being his brothers, but John is just as surprised as he is. A scout comes rushing to them as the camp has been put into a panic. They're preparing for battle. He shouts there's an entire host of iron men

coming toward them. Mance begins to form different ranks and he tells them to keep an eye on John. If he runs, rip out his throat. Yeah. John then tries to reach the horn of winter uh he's like this is my chance and then veramir is like nope and then turns out his animals are guarding him and veramir's over here murmuring like banners here in veramir murmur i see golden banners oh a mammoth lumbered by, trumpeting a half-dozen bowmen in the wooden tower on

its back. The king? No! And then the skin-changer threw back his head and screamed. We have Varamyr falling to the ground, writhing, and so is his shadowcat high in the sky, and then the eagle is flying even higher and burning. You know, as Chloe says, is this

butterfly foreshadowing? I don't know. The language here is interesting, especially coupled with the discussion of Ygritte earlier and Torment says of Ygritte, well, the hottest fires burn out quickest, which of course is reminiscent of Daenerys who comes to Westeros very much as fire incarnate, fire and blood, right? Bride of fire and then the line that's used to describe varamir slash aurel's eagle burning is for a heartbeat it flamed brighter than a star wreathed in red and gold and orange its wings beating wildly at the air as if it could fly from the pain higher it flew and higher and higher still and the flying from pain is like what gets me i know that we're obviously discussing john right now but it feels reminiscent of this idea of denarius

encountering so much of that isolation and continuing to fly higher continuing to burn hotter and i think you're right but I think it's a double layer of foreshadowing because it has to go somewhere that actually will then also foreshadow Dany which is Stannis all that language is very Stannis you're looking at

it flamed brighter than a star wreathed in red and gold and orange it was flying higher and higher from pain like it flies high high high until it's gone and then the vision he sees of the king wreathed wreathed in the crown of red and gold and orange yes and so also the proud wing story i mean the burb proud wing the burb oh yes no i was just giving you how dare you elliana i was just giving you shit because yes absolutely also a burb and then obviously stanis has a lot of dandy foreshadowing stuff going on so i think you're right via that that was my only like i wanted to give my edit to your idea

i don't know that it's like exactly foreshadowing but the language of it just feels so emotional and feels the same way as those two characters do to me it feels very prophecy-ish right yeah brighter than a star the flame that's that's so targaryen-ish with the comet in the last book yep yeah higher it flew and higher and higher still it makes me think of danny flying away on drogon yeah at the end of dance the higher higher higher becoming more isolated as you know things go awry around her and and it's it's difficult sometimes people withdraw and become more isolated when they're feeling pain instead of a being able to find those support networks around them or confiding in other people and that that's just humanity yeah it's a huge humanity

uh i'm in manderley oh my god so val runs out of the tent at all this din wondering what's happening where mance was and john's like he just went into battle and she's like no he can't be it's just begun and john's like yeah i just saw him put on his fucking crazy ass raven helm and he is out there in the battle and she's like no the birth it just began the birth just began dala is in labor like something is peaking right now yeah it's not the molly another crown isn't that what they call it when the child is being born right crowning yeah this is a different crowning oh my god i love you too so much luminaries yeah i feel so at home

there will always be meat and mead at Girls Gone Canon for you don't worry just meat for Matt yeah but like you know I didn't even think about this regarding crowning until just now but

I was gonna actually tie this whole thing of him being battle born as reminding me of the birth of denarius the storm born as stannis's ships near dragon stone or the birth of rhaegar um yeah simultaneously right with the death of much of his house burning at summer hall but it's also in a way you know kind of a crowding especially you know with st sanis again coming forward is paralleling with denarius's birth but i don't think it means anything it's just an interesting thing because it's another kind of prince but not because blood doesn't mean anything when it comes to kingship

amongst the wildlings yeah it's interesting i it's an interesting crowning crowning you're fired um the wildlings are breaking riders on horses are attacking and washing over them they're coming from the forest from the east the northeast the north there's three columns of horse they're glinting and steel not the men of the east watch those had been no more than a line of scouts. An army. The king. John was as confused as the wildlings. Could Rob have returned? Had the boy on the Iron Throne finally bestowed himself? Oh, John. That'd be so cool.

That'd be so cool if it was. I know. But Rob's dead. He doesn't know. He doesn't know. He doesn't know Rob's dead. Oh, it's gonna like, ugh. And that was the wolf last chapter.

Oh my god. And then like with on top of Jeor. Oh, Jon. It's done. Jon thought. They're breaking. The wildlings were running, throwing down their weapons.

Hornfoot men and cave dwellers and thens and bronze scales. They were running, throwing down their weapons. Hornfoot men and cave dwellers and thens in bronze scales, they were running. Mance was gone. Someone was waving Harma's head on a pole. Tormund's lines had broken. Only the giants on their mammoths were holding, hairy islands in a red steel sea. The fires were leaping from tent to tent, and some of the tall pines were going up as well. And through the smoke, another wedge of armored riders came, on barded horses. Floating above them were the largest banners yet, royal standards as big as sheets, a yellow one with long pointed tongues that showed a flaming heart, and another like a sheet of beaten gold with a black stag, prancing and rippling in the wind.

Robert, John thought for one mad moment, remembering poor Owen. But when the trumpets blew again and the knights charged, the name they cried was Stannis! Stannis! Stannis! Stannis! We could do another take just in case. Stannis! Stannis! Stannis!

John turned away and went inside the tent. my god it's all about options god so finally the victory that stannis wanted at the black water has been erected why did you do this why are you like this in your words big black horn um i don't know it wasn't really like a big victory in the long run obviously he didn't really win much like he's literally going to a penal colony that doesn't have any sway in westeros and no one takes seriously haha but and and like as we're gonna learn the north men aren't just gonna flock to to him. So, poor Stannis. Doomed from the start.

Our poor, sad, sullen boy. But it is a start. Better luck next year. It is a start. It is a start. It is. Find a lane. Stannis has found a lane now that's different from everyone else's. He's going for it.

North to South. His own kind of podcast. That's what I was just going to say. We kind of have to do that in a world saturated with podcasts now. You've got to find your lane and stay in it, right? And Stannis has found a lane. Which is why we're presenting to you our new format, which is only going to talk about polka music and Stannis Baratheon.

Polka music? Oh, polka music. I thought you meant music from Pokemon. And I was like, oh. That's an interesting thing to combine. We could do that. I mean, I was just listening to Viridian Forest the other day. Anyways.

I mean, I'm not against it is all I'm saying. I mean, it's an option. Well, how the tables have turned with the arrival of Stannis. Game changer. I do like the way that they wrote this, though. You're all like, what the fuck is happening for two pages?

I'm sure that there were people who weren't me who were like, oh, it's obviously Stannis. And then it starts becoming more clear what it is. But I mean, I was like, whatever. I was not that guy. Yeah, I was like, what was not that guy what's happening and I love that George waits it is because it's from John's POV

your guts are supposed to be like what's happening and then it clicks and then there are like I guess that eagle too with that language the color language kind of also talks about Stannis arriving in a way too but even if you don't like stannis this is a moment that you can be like excited you know it's an exciting moment you're like oh stannis is here holy shit and it is exciting it's like you've been

watching this character through davos's eyes uh and finally you're seeing it from somebody else and you're seeing his arrival and it was just a really cool moment. Yep. Yeah, Stannis is that he's that wild card. Wild card. Oh my gosh. Yeah. So Matt, do you have any

thoughts? Yeah, what are your closing thoughts on... It doesn't have to be closing. It can open a discussion, whatever you want. What are your opening and slash closing thoughts about this entire thing? Coming back to it once more. I just keep coming back to that line, we all want the same things. And it's pretty heartbreaking. This happens, it's a theme throughout all the books,

is you've got all these people that want the same thing, which is survival and prosperity. And if they would just work the together, they could achieve that. But instead they fight and they kill each other. And I know that's a little dramatic and cheesy sounding, but man, this is another perfect example of that, of people that really just want to survive on both sides of the wall. And because they can't look past what's right in front of them, they end up just killing each other. And now we've got more of that right now. Like these wildlings don't have to die right now at the hands of Stannis.

But because they're the quote unquote enemies, they're all getting slaughtered. And that just kind of sucks. Even though there's this cool triumphant entry by Stannis, the toll it takes on lives that are just trying to get away from these mystical killers. It kind of sucks. How's that for a downer? Yeah, I do think that's interesting that you are talking about how tinged this triumphant war is war entry is yeah because like john's not seeing it as triumphant he is a little in that he's kind of relieved he's like oh shit it's my god dodged a bullet there yeah but also he's like

looking at women and children screaming and and dying and being trampled in the chaos so no one wins at war yeah yeah that's all I have to say about that what is that

it's it's rough too because of course the wildlings had to plan this big raid to come south but they also aren't willing to abide by any of the laws once they get south so stannis was needed obviously to kind of rein that in and actually help broker that agreement obviously because if he wants this to be his realm then he's gotta figure out what to do with it even the parts of it that aren't really technically attached um or the parts that have overflowed so it's an interesting lesson for both john and stannis as john kind of figures

out how to deal with the wildlings living on this land or being people that they deal with daily not just someone that he can defect for a mini vacation while he disassociates for a while. Yeah, you brought up a good point that I was kind of ignoring, is that the wildlings, they can't have their cake and eat it too as well, right? Yeah, and they've obviously, unfortunately, had to violently learn that. Yep, yep. No one wins at war.

There's no winning. All right. All right. Yep. No one wins at war. There's no winning. Alright. Alright. Well, we had such a blast with having you on and it's a bummer we won't have you on next week, but we are going to have your other half. You guys are in for a treat.

Yeah, I'm sure he will be very passionate and he'll be like, no, this was a triumphant entry. Yeah, what do you expect us to, what are some scad isms we're gonna hear next week okay predict it so shadow it for us now foreshadow it i love scott because a scad excuse me he's known around the fandom as scad um i just call him scott in the throes of passion. Oh, wow. Oh my God. So close. So intimate. Slip inside him and ride him. Oh my God.

What I love about Scott is he's, he's one of the most thoughtful guys out there. And that's what I love about being, doing a podcast with him is he, he's very good at looking things for looking at things from every angle. And then he gets uber passionate about it um usually his passion is demonstrated in the form of um what we call scad tankerousness so expect some scad tankerousness uh next episode you'll love it just laugh at it it's he loves it when you laugh at his scad tankerousness oh my god okay so this was the horny episode and next episode's the angry episode i i was talking about the horn of winter yeah i know i knew exactly what you're talking about not the double entendre of the lewdness and mance being my daddy yeah yep yep oh my god

whose daddy isn't yeah you're gonna have you're gonna have a really thoughtful episode next episode as compared to my contributions i'm excited to hear eliana and him speak about things like stannis that'll be oh i am too oh i am too i think i'm gonna be like the the brook in this situation where I just go, Oh, okay. Just sit back and let him have it. Will you guys include me on the call? I'll just put myself on mute. I promise.

If you want, think about it. Absolutely. Yeah. We wanted, it's weird because we like divided and conquered. Obviously we wanted to have, we thought it would just be cool to have you on for one and him on for another.

And we like to split people up like that and keep you in the spotlight. You know, we want to hear one at a time just because we can hear you guys together that and keep you in the spotlight you know we want to hear one at a time just because we can hear you guys together any day any old day you know any day i can pull up some davos fingers but yeah not always can you just pull up some matt just one finger just give him a one finger yeah just a finger yep yep so now there's gonna be one finger you can listen to one finger at a time yeah scott's the middle finger for obvious reasons what are you the index the ring finger i'm i'm the ring

finger because you can you can dress me up pretty but really i don't do all that much otherwise no i i was gonna say i wanted to bring up brooke quickly just because you mentioned her and something that i wanted to mention this episode i mean mean, I never got to, was how she calls Alistair and Janos a bag of dicks. They're both bags of dicks. They are. I miss her every day. She's right and she should say it. Yep.

Yep. But it's been an absolute pleasure. An absolute pleasure. But it's been an absolute pleasure. An absolute pleasure. It's like I've got Eliana on one side of my mouth pulling up one side of my lips. And then I got Chloe on the other side pulling her up. And now my jaw hurts from the smiling.

It's been fantastic. So thank you both. No problem. Thank you for joining us. Come back soon. Thank you so much for joining us. Let everyone know where they can find you on the internet again. Twitter at Davos Fingers. DavosFingers.com.

Facebook. Patreon.com slash Davos Fingers. And we are DavosFingers at gmail.com. Nice. Wonderful. Well, you guys, we will have next week for john 11 we are going to have the other half of davos fingers on uh thank you again for joining us this week matt if you guys want to subscribe to us on social media to get updates about this episode or the next episode or any

episode or if you just want to find out what our favorite la croix flavor is that's been happening lately uh cucumber blackberry and peach pear by the way those are the two best flavors check to find out what our favorite LaCroix flavor is. That's been happening lately. Cucumber, blackberry, and peach pear. By the way, those are the two best flavors. Check it out at Girls Gone Canon on Twitter. Or if you want to pop us a message, you can send us an email at girlsgonecanon at gmail.com. Discuss the episode. Talk about your favorite horses in the series.

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will have just dropped this week as well of His Dark Materials. Another trailer has just come out for the upcoming season no release date yet but our episode will have released allegedly fall elastic wrote something in a thingy that went out publicly that said it was november but that's not a date that's not a date it's a date to me there's a whole like 30 days it could drop on chapters three through six of the northern lights and the golden compass came out this week check it out as always i have been one of your hosts chloe you can find me on the internet as lizen arbor and i have been another

one of your hosts eliana and you can find me on the internet if you look maybe if you listen closely whisper out the heart oh my god goodbye goodbye guys bye