Girls Gone Canon Cast - ASOIAF Episode 65 - ASOS Jon XI Ft. Scad from Davosfingers

Episode Date: September 6, 2019

Jon is offered the one thing he could never have. --- Davosfinger's website:   http://davosfingers.com Davosfinger's twitter:  https://twitter.com/davosfingers Davosfinger's podbean:  https://scaddy.podbean.com/  Eliana's twitter: https://twitter.com/arhythmetric   Eliana's reddit account: https://www.reddit.com/user/glass_table_girl Eliana's blog: https://themanyfacedblog.wordpress.com/ Chloe's twitter: https://twitter.com/liesandarbor Chloe's blog: www.liesandarborgold.com 

Hello, and welcome to Girls Gone Canon, A Song of Ice and Fire, Episode 65, Jon Snow in a Storm of Swords, Eleven. I am one of your hosts. Chloe, you might know me from the internet as Liza Narber on Twitter, Tumblr, or LizaNarberGold.com. And I am another one of your hosts, Eliana. You might know me as GlassTableGirl on Reddit, on the Maester Monthly Podcast. Maybe you know me as AverithMetric over on Twitter. Maybe not. What if you don't? What if you don't? Good for Podcast. Maybe you know me as a Eurydmetric over on Twitter. Maybe not.

What if you don't? What if you don't? Good for you. Maybe you should. I say this every time. Maybe you shouldn't. Good for you. She has big Lulu energy. Lulu! Not only do we have big Lulu energy. This is a

Pokemon podcast now. No, we have big onion energy today, Eliana. Did you know this? Oh, wow. I did not. Last week, we had our buddy Matt from Davos Fingers on, and this week, we collected them all, and our friend Skad is on with us. You might know him from winning the Ice and Firecon performance contest this year with

Eliana, and also our other friend, Seth. You also might know him from the YouTube popular hit Westeros, an American musical, the Hamilton and Game of Thrones crossover musical. You may. Scat, hello. Hello. So glad to be here today. Thanks for coming on.

With that dynamite intro. So glad to be here today. Thanks for coming on. With that dynamite intro. Yeah, if you watch that Westeros American Musical, you can, you can close, if you look closely, you can see me make a late entrance when I was supposed to bring a pitcher into the courtroom. How were you? You know, no one would know that except now you just said it. Oh, damn. Yeah, just like.

I could edit it out. Just cut that. Just edit. just cut that just edit another part of scad's accolades is he also won the performance contest completely on his own the year before performing the broken man speech

he says he told us that he didn't get all the words right but I'm like no one fucking cares everyone's just like oh my god it's scad you can hear a pin drop in that room I was like the silence was like so hardcore they were just listening everyone was, the silence was like, so hardcore. They were just listening and like, everyone was on the edge.

It was very intense. And the applause was like, deafening. It was insane. It was a great moment. I enjoyed it a lot. It was, I've said this before, but that was, I'm more, I've been, I was more nervous in that moment. Especially after I butchered, it's really the opening line. I kind of like mix up a couple words whatever and then i make one more mistake later

but anyway i was more nervous in that moment than i'd been in basically any other stage stuff i'd done and it was i realized later because the audience cared so much most of the time you're doing a play and most of the audience is like at least half of them are like yeah i'm with my spouse or whatever or their kids and they don't care or you know like the audience is not that involved every single person in there cared about this material so much and so it mattered and i didn't realize it until like halfway through i'm like oh shit they care yeah you were fixing like season whatever for us you were fixing fixing Game of Thrones for us. Skad fixed Game of Thrones. Single-handedly.

He was also a writer for season eight, so. Oh, so he also ruined it. No, Skad has nothing to do with the show. Skad is Ixnay out of there. He's like, get me away from that crap. Yeah, I did stop watching the show, but it wasn't through hatred. It was more through like, well, i don't have time right now and then by the time i had time i wasn't interested yeah

but you chose a good time to do that with your life really i know a couple people that quit like around season five or around season four and just like gave up on it and then like that willpower man that's like that that's the kind of stannis willpower except for the whole burning a kid thing but like the stannis willpower that's what that is yeah it's good yeah the key to the whole thing i think is once i got to the point where i just had to not worry about being spoiled and just like realize that i care about the journey that george is taking us on and not worry about being spoiled, that's when it started to feel good.

God, you're our most enlightened friend. You really are. You and that, though. You're so peaceful. You're so at peace with yourselves and the universe, I think. No. That's true.

Actually, I've seen you get enraged. Never mind. I have heard him be a... What was the term again? Yeah, scad tankerous. Yeah. Is that the term I've scad tankerous yeah is that the term that's true i have i have seen that and heard that of you but you sound peaceful right now like a lamb that's good the drugs are working two sides oh wow i'm in it you guys can't see but

i'm in a straight jacket oh they just they let me record in the asylum occasionally only like once a month though and he was bad the past two months that's why there haven't been any new episodes don't start rumors yes put that rumor out there on twitter you guys scat is joining girls gun cannon this is a tryout actually like yes yeah last week you had matt and now you have me it's a tryout is what it is. Scad, what's your zodiac sign? This is actually important. Are you a Scad-atarius?

What is your zodiac sign? I don't even... Oh man, I'm going to put myself in hot water. I don't follow any of that. I think I'm a Libra. Is that a thing? That is a thing. I think that's what I am. So, no, you can't be the third Kulgut.

You can't be. Sorry, your tryout is wasted. It was nice being here. Thanks for having me. All right, before Scad leaves, we should start our episode. But first, we have some housekeeping that we have to tend to. We wanted to announce a new schedule change coming into the fall. With what looks like to be a very busy fall,

we have the His Dark Materials TV show coming up eventually. Still no release date. I'm banking on November. You guys can join the betting pool. I don't know where it is, but you can join it. Last week of the month, we are planning on Noah's Song of Ice and Fire episodes that last week. We've kind of been pushing it very hard,

and we think that we want to do two His Dark Materials episodes a month and take the last week off of Jon for now. We will update you more as that progresses. I just wanted to drop in. You guys are brave for tackling His Dark Materials. I was like, can they really do a whole podcast on Tokars and

pit fighting and honeyed locusts? And I haven't yet listened to His dars materials but i'm really excited too and i think we could i really think we truly could it would be fashion hour for literally an hour as we discuss the tokars i'm out here like patting my stomach and being like you give it so many bellwosses in this thing oh Oh, Belloss, he deserved better. I know! Every time. Here's my theory. I think some of you

guys are behind on our podcast anyway. Yeah. So... I'm behind on our podcast. Yeah, fuck. We're behind. Christ. What is this? Where are we even? We're in the middle of John's storyline. And, you know, we're here with our boy we've been with our

boy for a long time but also we want to go hang out with like our other girl lyra and you know other characters right um in his dark materials and we thought it would be a good way to shake things up you know it's gonna be fall and i think that fall is a time, it's a season for change. And, you know, we're growing up. Are you convincing me or them? I don't know. Are you breaking up with me? This is what it sounds like. Skad, can you, like, come in on this?

You hear that it sounds like she's dumping me, right? Chloe and I are opening our relationship to other book series. I don't know. So far, we've broken up the Davos Fingers podcast and the Girls on Cannon Cop podcast in like 20 minutes. This is a disaster. Let's see what we can do to not a cast and see if we can bring down Radio Westeros and History Westeros. Oh, I've gotten in. I've gotten in, so I'm in. We're not breaking up. We are opening our podcast relationship to all our book series.

This is an open podcast. Oh my god. So we're gonna increase our His Dark Materials. Those of you that aren't reading that, and you are solely here for Jon, don't worry. You're gonna get some treats along the way, I'm sure. And we will be finishing Jon up. We're finishing

up A Storm of Swords soon. And we're moving into a Dovahda. A Dance with Dragons. A Dovahda! And that's gonna be a heavy book. We dance with dragons. A domino. And that's going to be a heavy book. We have a lot of really cool guests. We've been really blessed to have this week and last week Davos fingers on. Like I said, we collected them all. Kind of like your Pokemon card binder, you know, and you're just like, I have them.

We want to keep bringing you exciting Jon episodes. So to avoid the burnout, we're going to strike that last episode off the month and hope that it gives us all a chance to breathe and catch up speaking of things that have gone really well in these john chapters i want to share a comment from podbean from brian of farce grew kit chloe has now become the gold standard for john's voice tis a queen hiding under the snow. Snow, Ned! I feel like I have to give a response in Kit Harrington voice, in John voice, in like, that's very kind, but it's disrespectful, Brian.

Lord Brian. I thought you were going to say, I never wanted it. I never wanted it. I am no lord, sire. That's you. This is... You all have that to look forward to i think we just wanted to also put a gap in between episodes we didn't want to we didn't want to wear you all out on chloe's talents we got a tweet from from virginie vd aka sini on twitter follow her

she's fun but she enjoyed last week's episode. She said, I hope you guys guest together more times together. I laugh remembering the crack up dialogue about how Scad always tells Matt what to say and how Matt closed on. He's daddy. Only when I want him to. Oh, and Stannis, Stannis, Stannis. We should do a second take just in case.

And she says says i was unlocking my bike after paying a bill for that one and there was a woman who was staring at me weirdly i went from puffing laughing to grinning like don't worry it's just a silly bit in a very grown up radio program it was a really fun episode no no no, Sked. You just have a lot to live up to. Yeah, you gotta live up to this. No pressure. No pressure. There's no way I can.

I listened to that episode twice. I had so much fun with it. And yeah, Matt's amazing. You guys treated him with love and respect, but not too much. And it was great. What's too much? Don't answer that. He actually responded to Virginia's tweet and said he did

do the second take to give me options and i did keep them he says the fact i kept them in is a testament to my brilliance frankly i agree thank you but i i couldn't choose between them because it's always been hard the choosing has always been hard and And it was just, he was brilliant. I'm really excited to have you on, Skad, and to get into all of this, like our lightning round, because I know you're acting all humble, but you are going to bring it for this episode. I am excited. You have some great thoughts to share already. Well, we'll see. Yeah, it's ironic because Matt and I never do second takes. So the fact that he thought he would throw that in for you is like,

maybe it's him saying, maybe it's him saying, scat, we should start doing second takes. You're breaking up. Let's bust right into our lightning round. I hope you are prepared for your first lightning round scat. There will be a pop quiz after just kidding.

It's the episode. Where's my buzzer? In Aria 13, is there gold hidden in the village? Is there silver? Gems? Is there food? Where's Lord Beric?

Where did he go? How many men were with him? How many knights? How many bowmen? How many? How many? How many? How many?

How many? How many? Is there gold in the village? Samuel 4. Life with Stannis at Castle Black has changed a few things. Gilly nurses the orphaned wildling prince and her own son, and Sam plays political intrigues before asking Jon, Could there be honor in a lie?

If it were told for a good purpose. Thank you so much. Was that Wham! Fam memories coming back? Yes, yes. I don't know what that means. It's fine. Just keep going, Eleanor. John XI.

Stannis offers John everything that he's ever dreamed of. Writes his home a ferocious wife in the north. But John hesitates. Is he a man of his honor, who is the shield that guards the realms of men? Or an oathbreaker, turn cloak? Damned. So, Jon is down in the yard. He's helping Satin, practicing fighting and defending.

Yeah. You missed, though. He's prowling. Prowling around Satin. Like a wolf. I hope you're excited, because this is the kind of uh drop-ins you get when you have my talents on the podcast i do like that it's very uh animally you know very dragon-y wolf-y whatever we want to go with for john they uh they keep practicing satin stops

john is like why is everyone shutting up like why is no one everyone just stopping and suddenly he turns and it says when he turned she was standing behind him with half a dozen queens men around her it's not salise by the way it's not and i think that's part of why i like the way that this was written for for john because in many of the other chapters until we get to melisandre's pov of course and chloe and i talked a lot about melisandre um with quinn on ideas of ice and fire melisandre's portrayed as very ominous and the way that this chapter delivers it is by introducing it first as like she was standing behind him and they don't say who it is at first they just do the she and along with that hush in the yard and then the half a dozen queens men and it really goes to show you know the queens men around her etc

her power as opposed to stannis's and and he finds her really unsettling because of her whole look her red eyes her pale skin everything yeah her aesthetic you know the the red eyes are interesting it's it's amazing how many things you miss in this series and then you just get them on rereads or when you get invited onto a podcast with some of your friends the red eyes never stuck out to me but ghost has them too and you know the old gods and and relore and um you know is that a coincidence that these things are kind of ideas that are similar but also fighting each other they also have all those symbols right they have blood and weirwood paste blood sacrifices and the red almost always seems to be that magic the power behind the magic in a way so just having her completely wrapped in red and of course

she's the temptress too you know i mean that's something we're going to talk about today, I'm sure. She really resembles fire and power, and she's described as red, like awful and red is the very first thing we learn about her. But, you know, a little on the nose, a little on the nose. A little on the nose, exactly what I was thinking on the nose, that she's all red. And yet Ghost and the weirwood trees are just a little bit red maybe it's just you need some but not too much it really depends on what kind of fashion statement you want to make you know yeah sometimes you want to go for the monochromatic look oh my god sometimes you want that accent piece that is your eyes depends but totally depends she's here because stan just like gambit oh my god she's here because stannis wants to chat and speaking of accessorizing etc john's john's not ready he's not dressed for

this yeah you know what it feels like a throwaway like oh i gotta change my clothes and look better but also i think this is this foreshadows the coming discussion a lot. He could have just been like, yeah, okay, let's go. Instead, he throws his sword in the ground and is like, no, hold on. On my timeline, I have to go do something first. So he's not just at their whim and will. He's doing this with a little bit of, no, just wait a minute. I think that's a really great point because Jon delaying is its own showing. As you said, he doesn't necessarily answer to Stannis.

He's grateful, of course, but that is a great, I think, power move. I also think it's interesting that he wants to change to meet one of the kings. that he wants to change to meet one of the kings um i think that's another showing that this is in a way like the not anti but like a sub subversion of like robert coming to winterfell this is stanis coming to the wall and john's basically in pseudo power here right now right i mean obviously alice or thorn and jano slint have been pretty shitty was, you know, he had the wall for a while. And obviously, Stannis is respecting Jon. He's not calling Alistair Thorne in his office to talk to him or Janos Slynt. He's calling Jon.

So the fact that Jon also takes kind of the moment to go to my room, take my dime, get ready. I think that shows something with his upbringing and showing respect to that position of power, which is interesting. Yeah. Absolutely. We shall await you atop the wall said melisandre we john heard not he it's as they say this is his true queen not the one he left at east watch it's it's pretty great thanks uh nothing prepares you uh every time every time like chloe knows i like get so giddy every single week when she does it for the first time i don't know how it got this good too because i mean it started off okay but then somehow i just like got it i don't know i don't know practice practice practice some guy was doing the voice drunk at DragonCon and I had to bite my tongue because all I wanted to do

was be like mine's better you gotta got a jaw off oh ew keep your jaw on oh yeah he does so I've got questions about all this Mel at his side stuff.

So they'd be banging, right? We kind of assume or know that, right? Yes. But why, though? What? So she... No, because, like, what does Mel get out of that? So obviously she's trying to, like, prop him up and, like,

you're special, you're our dude, you're the one. But, like, she doesn't need to sleep with him. So what does she actually get out of that? Or is it just part, is it, like, maybe she's like, I yearn for you, Mr. J. Like, what is it? I think it might be power-based because, I mean, we see that sex created the shadow babies, right? I mean, obviously, that power. And not to make it all like love is

power man 60s 70s like love is love is all the magic you need man pass pass a tab but maybe like love magic is hinted at being more powerful in a lot of fantasy fiction i mean love and promises and sacrifices and shit like that i mean look at liana's blessing yeah har I mean, look at Lyanna's blessing. Yeah, Harry Potter. Look at Lyanna's blessing over John, the other boy who lived, you know. It is something that she can use for her power, so maybe it keeps her strong. It might feed into whatever mechanism keeps her, you know, powerful.

And it is his ego, because if she loses him, everybody is following them because of A, her power, and B, because Stannis is that mummer's dragon, you know, in her own way. That's her mummer's dragon. So him being in that head of power, it's really funny, too, because Cersei in A Clash of Kings says she can't seduce her way out of death by Stannis. But it's not the right type of seduction.

She doesn't have the right power to offer him. And Mel plays into that. And I think that's how she just keeps him tied to her whether it increases her power and his ego or what okay so that that's an interesting answer to my question do you think then that she started that like kicked that off because she wanted you use love which man i don't want to call what they have love well no not that sex at least yes uh like did she initiate that? Or was it because he seems totally asexual in that regard, like not wanting it at all?

Or do you think like, he started that? And she's like, yeah, okay, I'll get the king's blood out of that. It was probably her. I mean, she did come to him. I think that was what the most important thing is. You said it already. But like, he, he's been wanting to be called special his whole entire life and he has the middle child syndrome and no one has ever told him yes stannis it is you that has the destiny for this greatness and you are azor ahai um and i think it's very symbiotic

their relationship because without him everyone leaves and if he doesn't win, then she doesn't win. I mean, she's championed him. So if she loses, he loses and vice versa. So I think it's very symbiotic in that manner. And power. We also talked about magic with Quinn from Ideas of Ice and Fire at length about Melisandre a while ago on his YouTube channel. And we got into this conversation of how the whole idea of power resides where men think it resides right well absolutely there's a certain magic behind that too i mean if you have enough charisma

and you have a handful of people that are strong enough supporting you then you can dominate a whole entire land and make them think it was fine i want to raise like a couple of questions um i absolutely agree with what you're saying about like you know the power that she was able to or the type of seduction she was able to provide sanis was helping him feel as you said special but i wonder if some of it like i don't know if there's like a magic to it necessarily a i don't know if she approached him first i think she did but i wonder if salise had a part in that if she kind of presented melisandre to stannis you know in the way that like sarah right presents her maid to abraham or something and says here's here's my

maid have some sons with him or whatever and in in the bible but also i think there's like i wonder if it comes back to if there is a magical aspect to it melisandre did she have a background as one of the like sex slaves in the temples of rilor because that is a thing uh amongst the real laurian religion i do think that's gonna be i mean and we get Mel's POV, obviously, and the Melanie lot seven plays into that. Yeah, so I could definitely see that coming into play. And then on top of it, like you have her half seducing john this whole time to and her like, obviously really putting the charm on. And I think it was stupid show only when she like went to Davos and was like, you know, if you ever wanted to,

we can make some really sexy shadows. But was that also in his chapters? I don't think so. I don't remember that. Yeah, I think that was show only. I can't imagine what Davos, here's why I don't think that happened. I can't imagine what Davos' response would have been. I mean, he would have been insulted, but I can't even imagine it.

But that show, that show canon, if you will, sparks an interesting thought, you would have been insulted, but I can't even imagine it. But that show canon, if you will, sparks an interesting thought. You know, like, does sex itself just have power? And it doesn't have anything to do with the king's blood. Because Davos doesn't have any of that shit in his blood. I think that was an argument in House of Cards at one point. That sex is all about power. I don't know. But also, is Melisandre, is she about power. I don't know. But also,

is Melisandre, is she just like, I don't know, some dicks better than no dick. Disagree, but it's an assertion that can be made. That's part of what I wondered. Is she just yearning, you know, we're all human, right? Most of us. I like to think of that as very succubus.

Yeah, I think that she's that as like very succubus yeah i think that she's absolutely i think presented as a succubus in the story and she has all that like representation of like not only like red-haired witch is like totally a thing trope wise as far as fantasy and historical fiction kind of goes of you know the redhead that cast spells we see it with danielle loxton uh you see it you know sansa's even kind of regarded as it when she flies away like a bat but i don't know it's an interesting discussion and that's why i hope the melisandre chapters we do get i i hope we get more because that was an interesting pov that really changed the game i think for that character getting

melisandre's internal thoughts and realizing she's not just like this awful seductress like yeah she has a scheme slash plan but it's also because she is seeing visions that she half the time misreads yeah yeah she just goes too far she goes too far and sometimes it's just like Melisandre what if the curtains are blue it before before her POV chapter if not for Davos seeing the shadow baby crawl out of her i was fully on board with this is all smoke and mirrors um and you get that chapter and it changes everything like she believes all of this full tilt and it's funny because like as as you said for smoke and mirrors she does say that some of her shit is smoke and mirrors so it's melisandre is an interesting character i'm excited to see more of her pov and and wins you know eventually okay but you know after she comes to him then john has his whole

makeover scene he wears a heavy black cloak which is tall and he accessorizes it with long claw and i think that this is a really interesting gesture for him to do that and for that to be pointed out before he meets a king because i i speaking of reading too much into things like i might be reading too much into this but i feel like bringing your sword is kind of offensive right or Or at least it gives that air of apprehensiveness because it comes with that possibility of, you know, I don't know, he could pledge his sword, though everyone knows that the Night's Watch

doesn't really do that, so it kind of feels more like it's protective and a little bit offensive because we see Rob in a Game of Thrones appears with his own sword bared across his legs. This is a typical symbol within the north of unwelcomeness so bringing a sword to this meeting could be a sign of john's own mistrust

of the king and i i think it's it's kind of intentional for this meeting he's publicly signaling it to stannis yeah i think you're right especially because like to go fashion hour which we haven't done in a while because we've been wearing mostly black cloaks and wildling furs. Well, we talked about it a little with how he dresses with the wildlings, you know, every now and then. Every here and there, but it's been a while, right? Because it gets boring to talk about it every week when it's just black clothing. But he chooses his heavy black cloak and like his finest longest black cloak for this and i think that's also showing like he knows whatever stannis asks of him he's not supposed to say yes

because he can't metal in the realms affairs right and so he's wearing his finest heaviest black cloak longest cloak as a resolve to that as well to make sure he's reminding stannis i am a man of the night's watch remember that yes absolutely absolutely you guys you guys reached way deeper on that than i did i just thought man it's cold on the motherfucking wall it's also that it's heavy clothes it is cold i mean to be fair but i can definitely see where that would come in yeah against the cold and then so he finally meets up with stannis and here's what stannis wants um melisandre says to him all you have to give john snow he is a king and a kind of lewd b i was thinking like that's definitely a lewd joke right it the language reminds me granted

this book came out storm of swords came out way before Fire and Blood but the language reminds me of the words that Cregan Stark says to Black Alley of like all I ask is all of you forever or some shit but oh yeah I like that she specifically brings that up right that her maidenhead

is not there and she can't give him she can't give him that. I think she brings that up. Yeah. You can see those implications, right? Of her, like, lacing her hand along. Well, she's obviously throwing the

cat around here and there to try to be like, let's make some magic. You wanna make some magic? So I feel like some of her foreboding-ness here is kind of like that on purpose right like she is trying to keep it vague to keep her options open because i mean if she squints real hard in those visions she might see some snow ned it's it's hard with mel because she kind of always speaks with this layer of of importance and impressiveness and doom or prophecy like almost with everything she says

so it's hard to read too much into it but she's definitely using keywords and things that you don't use if you're not trying to create an air of of intrigue and mystique yeah and you should want me and she's definitely approaching it from that bent it's clear right i don't go get my nails done with sexy red acrylics and wear red lipstick in a short little dress and go out if i'm not trying to look hot like i get that like mel girl you're front and then i got that so i do get that like she's obviously always got that and maybe it's also the way george is writing it let's be fair because I love George, but look at who he is, and his age and his gender and his, you know, time on earth that and he, you know, titties are great. I agree. So he's like out there with the red priestess being all like, here I am my sexy red

outfit with my sexy red hair and my sexy red blood magic. I feel like it's a little heavy-handed sometimes it is for sure and you know it's it's hard because i usually take the approach of authors are very very careful with the words they choose to put in and not put in they go through and edit and edit and edit and other times i'm like man they just wanted to add the word sexy a bunch of times yeah i swing back and forth can you believe that george was very specific when he wrote fat pink mast uh i can believe it and i'm thankful every day my god thankful one like is one prayer no i don't know how important it is but it's it's just and maybe it's just a mistake from

george's writing again but uh she says she'll meet him atop the wall with stannis there and instead she waits at the bottom so she can ride the winch up so you know did she just like like what she saw in the yard for that playful sexy discussion we just had or did she want to have a discussion with him about stannis or i don't know it's just it's just interesting that she decided to wait and go with him instead of gois or I don't know. It's just interesting that she decided to wait and go with him instead of go up on her own. It could be as simple as logistically the cage was at the top and she had to wait.

Yeah. Sometimes I get distracted and I'm like, I'm going to check my phone here for a second. Melisandre checking a small fire. Melisandre's checking her tweets. Have any Pokemon popped up around here? God damn, they're all water types. Oh, they would be.

I bet there would be a lot of dark types, too. As they head up, Sean thinks of Egret being kissed by fire as he notes that Mel smells like hot iron and the words that he uses are smoke and blood. Yeah, smoke and blood. And I've got something on this. if you'll just take a little reading john fell to his knees he found the dagger's hilt and wrenched it free in the cold night air the wound was smoking smoke and blood and from that aforementioned

chapter uh mel's pov the red priestess shuddered. Blood trickled down her thigh, black and smoking. So when you wrote those, they reminded me of a lot of other passages that are so specific. I feel like this is totally a thing. I want to go follow everything he's written of smoke and blood now because of that. A Search of Ice and Fire is our friend. I know, I know. I know.

And also, if you guys are listening and you have ever used a search advice and fire or you want to, please give them a quick donation because they might be putting fire and blood up and they have to host this website that we all use all the time. So. Absolutely. I saw I think it was Aziz's reminder of that earlier on Twitter and got to do that myself. It sounds like you were the one that did the deep dive on the blood and smoke. I just wanted to point out that I think George is using, I think he's being careful with the language and using smoke and blood to tie these two together. And I think it definitely hints at something that we all fucking know, right? I'm not breaking any new ground here, but that she's going to bring him back when he dies oh it's so nice not to have spoilers when he dies at the end uh if she's gonna bring him back and this is just more language kind of tying that

together because george is a master this might be a little reachy at some points, but it reminds me of Daenerys and Drogon in the pits in Dany 9 in A Dance with Dragons. His head turned. Smoke rose between his teeth. His blood was smoking, too, where it dripped upon the ground. He beat his wings up again, sending up a choking storm of scarlet sand. Dany stumbled into the hot red cloud, coughing. He snapped. sand danny stumbled into the hot red cloud coughing he snapped and it also reminds me there's some language of that with victorian's arm as well which we know gets fixed and it has

blood and smoke and uh that's he's getting it fixed by makoro and then there's that prologue too where we hear it from veramir that he smells man smells old skins dead and sour near drowned beneath the stronger sense of smoke and blood and rot so very foreboding there's so much like little just smoke and blood all throughout up until the end of a dance of dragons yeah that's that's really cool the victorian one uh obviously linked uh to melisandre in ways you know, and his use with smoke and blood tying them together. Dany and obviously Varamyr ties his tie to Jon very clear, hinting at that.

Victarion's an interesting one. Yeah, the dragons too, like their blood. I mean, their magic, fire made flesh. But it also, it brings Dany into this relationship that I've concocted in my brain of between mel and john and how does that how does that work how is how is she related in that whole game there's obviously the the the vaguish they're all magic kind of thing going on but is there more something more tangible uh there with the the life and the death don't know yeah

and once we get uh you know like marwin the mage and more makoro stuff going on i feel like maybe a few more answers might come there or more for me and you to sit here and be like oh my god and then it reminds me of this thing so i can't yeah wait i need more now i'm gonna have to go back just to try to bring the danny tie into the john tie i'm gonna have to go back and read eliana's essay for the third time. If you guys haven't read it, go read the Many-Faced blog. You can just Google Many-Faced blog and you will find it. And it's an amazing essay about Danny's journey. And it made me think a lot because I was preparing for this episode while I reread it. It made me think a lot about the journey that John takes and some of the things that make him a little tragic, but not exactly the same.

Anyway, go read that essay. Many faceblock, go. I think it's interesting that you chose to read that in preparation for this episode. Because it's technically not really about Jon. But yeah. No, I know it's not at all about Jon. I read it because I felt guilty for not having finished it when I told you I would.

I mean, that's how I feel. You had it until today. That's how I feel. And then I reread it. When I realized I haven't sent you your shit yet, so. Do not feel guilt. But I'm so glad I finished it today, or it was yesterday. Because so many ideas came out.

I'm glad. Maybe this means I'll send you your thing now. Who knows? Don't worry about that. But, you know, on the opposite side of smoke and blood, you have this feeling of coldness, and Jon and Melisandre actually have a discussion about it. The ruby at her throat seemed to pulse in time with the beating of her heart.

The Lord's fire lives within me, Jon Snow. Feel. She put her hand on his cheek and held it there while he felt how warm she was. This is how life should feel, she told him. Only death is cold. This is very- speaking of, as you all were saying about her maybe making moves with john this is very forward i don't just go up to people and touch their cheeks unless i'm that trashed then at that point it's not sexual i'm just like oh my god i'm so happy to see you but like it's it's very intimate it's deliberate it's deliberate for sure yeah definitely trying to entice him like it's it's very intimate it's deliberate it's deliberate for sure yeah definitely trying to entice him like it's very much playing that temptress and that's what stannis is about to

do as well he's about to play that temptress but it's tempter i guess oh interesting that's interesting and so regarding stannis i i really love the language in this chapter. I think that they did- you can tell George was really into this chapter and the things that are going to come in a bit, but he did a great job. They found Stannis Baratheon

standing alone at the edge of the wall, brooding over the field where he had won his battle, and the great green forest beyond he was dressed in the same black breeches tunic and boots that a brother of the night's watch might wear only his cloak set him apart a heavy golden cloak trimmed in black fur and pinned with a brooch in the shape of a flaming heart. I have brought you the bastard of Winterfell, your grace, said Melisandre. I also called out this quote because

I have here bolded Stannis Baratheon standing alone at the edge of the wall brooding over the field where he had won his battle. And I know that a lot of people, even Melisandre thinks it, of how similar Stannis and Jon are in her own chapter and I feel like that comes

through in this one line because turns out Stannis, like Jon, is also very broody and emo it's likely she should be seeing Jon and she's seeing Stannis but this is so like it's so dramatic, it's so overtly wonderful and just

dramatic, it's drama that he's just like dressed all in finery. And his cloak too. I mean, this is interesting to go fashion hour on it. It's a heavy golden cloak trimmed in black fur and pinned with a brooch in the shape of a flaming heart. So like he's gone all in on the flaming heart, obviously. We already know that. That's his sigil now. hard obviously we already know that that's that's his sigil now uh but his cloak is heavy and golden and he's still making sure people know i am the rightful heir and the rightful king i am a

baratheon uh i love that i think it's just i don't know i love it i think it's dramatic it's so fucking dramatic it's very vogue good for you stannis it is and i agree with you aliana they are both very broody kind of people i re-listened to the devil's fingers episode where we covered this chapter a while ago and uh we talk about that how they could have a kind of like a brood off right i was supposed to get my brother's castle i'm bastard you know like they're just they're they're two peas in a pod on this and uh you know is this uh foreshadowing you're about to see it in the coming conversation uh did have you guys ever heard of the phrase bird lip what no only worm lips on ramsay this

is a good one this is like a dad good one you're gonna like this uh my dad used to tell me when i was a kid and when i was like frowning or pouting or whining or looking like all like i'm i'm a middle child bastard or whatever we're gonna say like stannis and john when i was brooding as a child he would be like you have bird lip and i'd go what do you mean dad and he would say if you keep sticking your lip out that far a bird's gonna come and poop on it and that's what Stannis has he has bird lip that's amazing and it's time I try a new bird lord

Davos that's what it's about I thought you were gonna say the bird would come purchase it that's also what I thought stop making that stupid effing face or a bird will poop in your mouth is what he would tell me, basically, now that

I'd listened to it as an adult. I'm like, oh, okay. That was the way he tried to get me to stop throwing a fit or being upset, I guess. I don't know. It's a good one, Dad. It's amazing. It is a good one. So, before we leave this, talking about birbs, I want to talk about the way the birbs dress here in A Song of Ice and Fire. And by that, I mean the crows, right? Because I do kind of wonder now, you were talking about the way Stannis is dressed, setting him apart with the cloak.

idea was it that stannis would dress in the same black breeches tunic and boots because that's actually a very i think in my opinion good political move on his part to try and seem he's really not great at seeming like a man of the people but in this moment he's almost kind of trying i want to spin it the other way why why did they give him their clothes stannis where are your fucking clothes well but i mean it as in like this is so it's something i want to talk about in a little bit too in a couple other areas but they're giving stanis a lot of amenities and that is what taking these little liberties is kind of what pushes the end of john's dance with dragons story because he keeps taking some of these liberties and he just keeps going and he doesn't stop what he should have stopped politically uh so i think it's kind of interesting that

stannis is wearing that like where did he get that did they just give him a change of clothes which i'm not saying don't give the guy a change of clothes i'm not saying it's a dick move but if that's like maybe like john commanded it maybe like that could be bad that could be problematic towards his list of uh reasons they kill him yeah and it could be just a sign of things to come of how they kind of embrace him and take him in a little bit yeah um but it's interesting i didn't read that into it it says the same black breeches tunic and boots that a brother of the night's watch might wear so i just figured they were similar but if they're giving him clothes you're right that's a symbol of you know they're kind of embracing him a little bit

which politically they're not supposed to do i do want to go back eliana what's something you said which is a tactic george has already used um when cersei dressed up to meet ned in the godswood and dressed up in the fashion that he would like to see it's similar here stannis is wanting to look uh like the people he's trying to because this whole conversation is very different ground than what Stannis is used to. He's asking somebody else for something. And he wants to come to them as a man they would relate to. Yeah, yeah. And he tries to do that.

We'll get there. And throughout those conversations, I have one more thing. No, and you're probably right, Eliana. Like, it probably is the opposite. Like, he's trying to mirror. It's like Andy from The Office. He's mirroring them. I know you haven't seen it, Eliana. I'm sorry.

But it was just an interesting thought in the other direction since this isn't a first read. This is a reread podcast that Scout gets to celebrate in. At the very end, you know, his story here when he dies, since he's dead, never coming back. Yeah. It when he dies, since he's dead.

Never coming back. Yeah. It adds to the list. That's all. I just am curious if that's it. Yeah, I think it's interesting, and you know, the phrase that came to my mind when you were talking about that was, if you give a mouse a cookie... He's gonna ask for you to be the lord of Winterfell? Yeah. Spoilers! Yeah.

No, we don't... That doesn't affect us here. Spoilers cannot hurt there No we don't That doesn't affect us here Spoilers cannot hurt us on this podcast Yeah we can talk about whatever we want it's our podcast I know So as Stannis turns to study Jon Jon is studying Stannis And Jon remembers what

Donald Loy said about Stannis before Robert was the true steel Stannis is pure iron Black and hard and strong But brittle, the way iron gets He'll break before he bends I think we should definitely I don't know if you guys want to talk about this line or not

Whatever Right after this line though I think it's so interesting that Donald Noy is very much A shadow that hangs over this entire conversation as we'll see in a bit it's something that connects stannis and john but stannis tells john to rise and he calls john lord snow and then john replies to him i am no lord sire and that just really reminds me because we dug into it a few chapters ago how donald noy is very quick to remind people i'm not a lord and so for john to do that he does it twice in this

chapter shows the huge influence donald noy has had on him and it's it's interesting that stannis fails to grasp that uh this whole this whole conversation is a disaster it's two people that don't know how to have a polite conversation with each other and we're forced to read through it as it's just halting abrupt and terrible uh but also that's what makes it so enjoyable why i wanted to be on this this chapter um i mean this this i am no lord sire that Chloe so graciously should read for us. I just wanted to note it because it really is, it sets the tone for this whole awkward conversation. It is John putting up a fence and disagreeing with something that was just meant as a compliment. You know like when you're talking to somebody who you should be trying to impress or care about their opinion.

And you just kind of let things slide in a conversation just to kind of like keep it going easy so that you're not like putting the conversation on the wrong track john does not know how to do that or he's purposefully trying to avoid doing that by saying like i'm no lord right yeah you could have just said yeah what's next yeah and it does frame like the entire end of this chapter. And it frames it at the beginning when he pretty much thinks about all that. But I think you could see him like very much so resisting this. Like he knows that he's going to this king and this king is going to offer him something.

And he also saw Ned say yes to a king and go south for him and do things for him and rule for him in his name so i wonder if he's hesitant in that especially yeah and also he's just been called an oath breaker and like everything 800 million times because he you know broke his oaths ish for corin and came. So since they almost like hanged him as a traitor the other day, you know, if you were there for that with Alistair and Janos, I think he's also a bit touchy about that. But also this conversation that's about to happen still embeds those thoughts in him.

And Jon's like, just when you think you're out of the crypt dreams, Stannis Baratheon pulls you back in, you know? Well, speaking of the crypt dreams, I just realized this now during this conversation that we're all having. I don't remember what it was that Skad said that spurred this thought. But there's an irony here now that I think about it. It's not just that Jon's

tutelage from, like, Donald Noy and his humbleness, right? His own humility coming through and saying, I am no lord, Siren. As you were saying, Chloe, like, seeing Ned's example. The irony is Jon is no lord he's a king yeah yeah and stannis is not yes and no it's gravy it is interesting though i want to give stannis a little bit of credit i was put forth last week by my co-host as some big stannis

defender i thought you were we both legitimately thought this of you you know he's i i like him okay i see his values and i see his flaws and i relish them both i suppose he's a rich character to me uh but uh at least he does value donald noy as a man he says he would be a worthy leader he knew him which uh makes me wonder like why he was sent away from his service or left or whatever to begin with but stannis knew him and cared about him it wasn't just some dude in his service yeah and honestly like saying like that's too oh he was a he would have been a great leader like that's literally the top compliment you can get from Stannis.

Just putting it out there. That's like Stannis saying, I loved that man. Kinda. More or less. Hashtag daddy. Hashtag literally. That's the man that raised him. Yeah, Stannis needed one.

Maester Cressen was one. Donald Noy could have been maybe something like that for Stannis. Maybe we should do instead an episode on Stannis' daddies. Oh my gosh. There's two. Never mind. There's something deeper there, I think. You could do an exploratory essay on shitty fathers in Westeros and why that spurned so many

multiple daddies. Wait, did you say spermed or spurned? You know, take it how you want. Oh my god. Guys. It's time I try a different bird oh my god you and your bird lip bird lip bird life so then John

addresses just head on the rumors about him being a turn cloak and Stannis is like I also heard another rumor you also skin change and then Stannis smiles oh my god fascinating beautiful yeah fascinating i i uh again plug in search of ice and fire uh i looked it up stannis smiles three times at least that it's noted by the povs in these fine books and two of them two of three are in this chapter wow it's interesting holy heck i mean he's gotta smile privately maybe sometimes sometimes he might have a nice memory of proud wing and then start crying but he smiles first right i'm sure he does it's just not noted so

stannis asks what's true what really happened john tells him the story and Stannis believes him because Janos Lant is a fucking dick. He's a dingus. And Stannis says, I knew Ned Stark as well. Your father was no friend of mine, but only a fool would doubt his honor or his honesty. You have his look. Close.

I liked that line. That's all. Yep. This is also Stannis, againis again just kind of even though he's trying to butter john up a little bit because he's about to ask him for something he's still shitty at it yeah your father was no friend of mine just just leave it at he was honorable and honest he doesn't know how tmi tmi stannis yeah exactly it's he's just really, really bad at this. That's true. I imagine it's not written in here, but in a performance of this scene or something, there should be just a lot of awkward pauses and people just sitting and staring at each other like, okay.

Absolutely, yeah. Halting words. absolutely yeah halting halting words and yeah yeah stannis credits john for holding the wall and together they both mourn donald noy for like a minute and as as you said earlier stannis's acknowledges that noy would have been a better lord commander than like in the words of stannis like any of these fools who are squabbling over it now. Yeah. Jon points out Cotterpike and Dennis Malister aren't fools, though, same as Othell Yarwick. And it's true, they aren't. Those are serious contenders

to deal with coming forward. And Stannis thinks that Jorah Mormont trusted too easily. You could say that again. I mean, yeah. But that, you know, that's not necessarily bad. I mean, it is for him i mean that's not necessarily bad i mean it is for him but that that's a good respectable trait in a good old bear um and then this is interesting because we talked about this last week and i didn't remember it but we learned mel was responsible for veramir

going mad for a hot second so when we saw the bird in the sky, the eagle, and it was burning and we mentioned the different kinds of ideas and you had said something about how it could eventually mean Danny, which I like that a lot because it does mean Stannis. It means Melisandre. I totally forgot that it was her burning the bird. Like, so Stannis colored, it was red and gold.

So good job, Melisandre. Good job, me. Good job, Eliana. We got there. That bird will never poop in anyone's

mouth, but you go there. No, no bird lip. So, oh! You know that bird pooped in Varamyr's mouth a bunch of times. Ew. Varamyr probably ate it. Because Othel's still in there. Oh god. This means that Mance and his son and Val were all captured.

Yeah. This conversation is just, it's just more of the same, really. I mean, I already talked about, you know, Jon denying being a lord, instead of just being like, yeah, alright, what's next? He's putting up all sorts of just

corrective, this is something Stannis would do. It's a lie, strike it out. He gets, you know, credit for fighting the dragonglass. No, no, this is something Stannis would do. It's a lie. Strike it out. Uh, he gets, you know, credit for fighting the Dragon Glass. No, no, Ghost did that. Uh, I know you held the gate. No, no, Donald Noy did that. And you brought us Val and the baby. No, no, Dalit died and, you know,

it wasn't any trick to bring her, you know, it was no big deal. There was no protection. You know, he's, he is fighting every compliment that Stannis is managing to grind out through his closed mouth uh and he's just denying every single one he's not making this easy on stannis he's bad at this too he can't you are can you guys take compliments i'm pretty bad at taking john can't take a compliment you eliana yeah what i haven't even heard you ever be like that especially not

tonight um i also would argue that he's being obstinate because a lot of the things that stannis is complimenting him for are also like kind of oath-breaking like he's like you did really good at this but also like huh john doing that is protecting them, which he's not supposed to do. So he's like, no, I didn't. Stannis, don't fucking say that that loudly. Yeah. It's not stuff that he's trying to celebrate right now. It's stuff that, like, he almost died two days ago for being an Oathbreaker again.

Like, he's trying to keep a low profile right now, and Stannis is asking him to do the complete opposite in this conversation. He's like, no, dude, I'm just gonna chill. I i also think he's just he's ill at ease with the whole conversation i agree with you these are things that he doesn't want shouted from the rooftops but also like he's gotta be thinking where is he going with this like like have you ever been in a negotiation and like you're kind of feeling each other out because you don't know what's happening really and they're trying to give you compliments or like move the direction a certain way and you're kind of feeling each other out because you don't know what's happening really. And they're trying to give you compliments or like move the direction a certain way. And you're just trying to hold firm and stay where you are. Because you're like, I don't want to agree to anything.

Because I don't know what they're trying to set me up for. Like Kat and Rob when she set him up on the whole forgiveness thing with him getting married and everything. Like, I don't, I do not want to get set up by Stannis on agreeing to something here. So I'm just going to stick to the facts. Right? And he doesn't know what's coming. Stannis does a horrible job of like painting this conversation in a light of, I'm going to ask you for something. Or I'm going to ask you for this.

All of this bullshit for like four pages, it really sets Jon ill at ease. Yeah. Yeah. it really sets Jon ill at ease yeah and it's funny you say it that way too because it's like Stannis is about to try to burden him with something huge

something that like this is treason for Jon in his world this is absolutely this is the same thing as Janos thinking he's being promised the wall when he shows up and I guess it's because Stannis maybe thinks that maybe these things are true of Jon and he's just trying to pin it on him of like, you want these things and trying to find some sort of hole to show that, hey, maybe you would want to be like Lord Winterfell.

Maybe you do want this job offer. Jon's like, well, we're here i guess can like you allow val to see manson his son you know they're like family and stuff it'd be really nice and then status is just like so you're into val he's like i hear she's really hot do you think she's hot? Oh my god. So you agree. You think she's pretty. And Stannis delivers this line. Skaad, do you want to perform this line for us? Sure.

Yeah. Beauty can be treacherous. My brother learned that lesson from Cersei Lannister. She murdered him. do not doubt it. Your father and Jon Arryn as well, he scowled. That's not fair.

Be nicer to Cersei, she only murdered Robert. She only succeeded in one of these. Well, she did try, but she did try, like, she actually didn't want Ned to die, because she was not a complete fool. So that's what I'm saying. Be nicer.

That's not fair. She tried to save Ned's life briefly. And you know what? Robert wasn't the best king. So, I mean, I'm not saying Joffrey's better, obviously. I'm just saying that, you know, at least we got rid of one. Yeah. I didn't realize I was joining the Girls Gone Serious in the podcast tonight. Holy shit, the amount of defense.

We are just, we are just, are we like stannis we are just and we are fair credit where credit is due yeah if you want credit for murdering someone i will let you have it but yeah that was little finger i mean there are a lot of things that circe has done that are bad and oh yeah let's talk about those well not today but there's tons of those i'm just like i think it's really cool though that everyone thinks cersei's super competent and killed ned and john eric it's very funny i i love that from the outside she looks like a mastermind but then like you get in her head and you're like oh my god no uh it's like scree i mean she didn't pull the trigger

But she set all of it in motion Not all of it, a lot of it in motion Particularly with Ned, right? Yeah, but so did he set it in motion When he was like, I'm giving you a night to run Because I'm totally trusting you Oh, sure But she at least told Joffrey

Like, no, no, we shouldn't do that now And Tywin's like, he's only supposed to do this I can't believe that happened that was the worst I should have been here to stop him but I was busy fighting his wars um yeah but if I give my child a hammer right no it is totally your fault I know my walls are getting broken

or I'm gonna have one less child in the morning or something yeah but to be fair you also didn't fuck your brother to give birth to this child that you know know see it as a narcissistic extension of yourself your whole entire life and your power anyways uh coming back though to the quote uh i think there's an interesting irony here in what stannis says regarding beauty and it's kind of the subtext in the chapter because right from the beginning one of the first things that john says when he sees melisandre is that she's beautiful and it's one of the first

things that most povs actually notice about her so maybe stana should be taking his own advice here on beauty being treacherous especially because as you were talking about at the beginning of this episode like they share a bed absolutely he can't see himself clearly which I think is something you said earlier right I think you said that I don't know maybe I think it was pre-stream but you were talking about

how you wish he could see himself honestly yeah it was earlier you said this before we recorded yeah it's true because like, because, like, he just believes, like, I'm this great destiny king. Melisandre, aren't I? I'm still the destiny king, right?

Let's have sex. Make a shadow baby now. Come on. Sleep with me now. Make me feel better. I feel insecure. Yeah, of course, Stannis. God, he's such a middle child. I, an only child, don't understand it. I also, I also an only child, though though somehow do understand the insecurity do you i'm a middle child also oh i don't feel like i have it no i have i have some imposter syndrome sometimes but i don't feel like i lack for confidence yeah being a middle child to be fair i mean and i've seen you

perform on a stage before so i can like i canate that story that, no, you don't have any shame. You're pretty charismatic and happy. Scott is incredibly charismatic, everyone. You guys, we're going to put so many links with this episode, I can't wait. So John explains that the wildlings do have honors, Stannis. Just not Rattleshirt, of course, which that's obviously a nod for the future that we should pay attention to, I think. But Stannis proceeds to talk about Ned once more. Stannis gave a curt nod.

Your father was a man of honor. He was no friend to me, but I saw his worth. Your brother was a rebel and a traitor who meant to steal half my kingdom. But no man can question his courage. What of you? Does he want me to say I love him? Jan's voice was stiff, informal, as he said, I am a man of the Night's Watch.

Words. Words are wind. Why do you think I abandoned Dragonstone and sailed to the Wall, Lord Snow? I am no lord, sire. You came because we sent for you, I hope. Though I could not say why you took so long about it. Surprisingly, Stannis smiled at that. You're bold enough to be a Stark.

Yes, I should have come sooner. If not for my hand, I might not have come at all. Lord Seaworth is a man of humble birth, but he reminded me of my duty, when all I could think of was my rights. I had the cart before the horse, Dargo said. I was trying to win the throne to save the kingdom when I should have been trying to save the kingdom to win the throne.

Stannis pointed north. There is where I'll find the foe that I was born to fight. Really? You think? Stanny? You have to look inside yourself, Stannis. The foe you were born to fight was inside of you all along. Reflection from Mulan plays. The friends we

made along the way didn't exist anymore. Oh no! That's a classic quote right there, right? The cart before the horse lion is very defining for Stannis' arc and his journey and I definitely think we'll hear something similar

i'm sure with another uh hero in the story that has fire available good call for sure yeah that that that carton of the horse thing is that's why people like stannis i think it's it's it's it's the whole pragmatic approach to oh yeah that's right this is what i should do i will go do it but you know the whole part about the foe that i was born to fight also you know were you were you born amidst smoke and salt were you are you azor ahai is that blade you're carrying hot like he's totally skipping the parts that don't fit about his story uh that that makes this whole thing too convenient so you know both why you love him and why you hate him in the same paragraph here i think

yeah yeah and i think that's this is just top of mind for me because i'm reading and almost done i guess with this because that comic is almost done, The Wicked and the Divine. And Chloe, I think you would actually really like this comic book series. And it addresses that, this whole thing of people wanting to believe that they themselves were destined for greatness and fit into these legends. Yeah, and that's the whole thing, right? destined for greatness and fit into these legends yeah and that's the whole thing right like destiny he believes that his destiny is something big and I do

think some of the recent revelations we've been having I mean prophecy is obviously George is trying to show us that prophecy is not good it uh eats at you right it totally does it's easy to feel like you know to feel like you know that you have a purpose that someone has given it to you as opposed to

i mean as i i was joking earlier but kind of not drinking that the foe that stannis has defined is in sign himself but growing up is about learning that someone's not always going to just give you that purpose you have to make it you have to define your own life and figure it out for yourself and that's scary it's just like look at Quentin you know it's the same kind of idea that you know he gets this journey this adventure and he tells himself it's going to be a big adventure and I'm the chosen one I'm I'm the one that should marry Daenerys. And then it turns out, no, it's not. You were never the chosen one, Quentyn. Like, you burnt out. Yeah. And I think that's a great parallel. It is. And I'm reminded in both cases of the Truman Show.

You guys seen the Truman Show? I have, not for a while. Most people are totally willing to be the center of a universe if they're told they are. Yeah. And this guy, Truman, you know, he lives in this world for his whole life as the center of this universe and doesn't realize that he's the center of this universe, that everyone is acting around him to his benefit and, you know, to make him the center. And what he chooses to do when he finds out he isn't is very telling what will stannis choose to do if and when he finds out that he isn't who he thinks he is what did quentin do when he found out he wasn't

who he thought he was supposed to be right these things they say a lot about your character uh and speaking of the hero's journey you you know, the hero, basically, you have the whole entire arc. You meet your hero. You get their motive, their why song, right? You get their why song. This is their I want. And then your hero goes through a transformation, right?

Your hero has to go through a transformation. For characters like Sansa, we know that she's going to go through the political transformation where she suddenly gets a little smarter and figures some stuff out. Arya's going through a transformation. We see this with all the kids, the Stark kids that have that Jedi moment. But for Stannis, he's already really had that transformation, right? He started off as a guy that suffered and he built this navy that

his brother didn't give a fuck about. And you know, he didn't care about me. He gave me Dragonstone. didn't give a fuck about and you know he didn't care about me he gave me dragon stone his transformation came when melisandre arrived and said you are azora high this is about you this is your destiny so characters like stannis it's like he has to have that tragic downfall because that transformation's already occurred he's not going to change and get a new transformation he's not going to get something newer than azora high he's going to get whatever his ending is yeah right but how he chooses to take that ending is the important yes so when all is lost what does he do he burns it down and same thing with danny too right and so excited to see that happen on the page he wants to believe this this important role that's been thrust upon him by Melisandre, and he's willing to take it hook, line, and sinker. But he and, to a greater degree, maybe even Mel, ignore the stuff that doesn't fit. And it's really bothersome. To rereaders like us, it's very bothersome. to rereaders like us, it's very bothersome. It's right there on the

page. You said the line yourself, Mel. He doesn't fit this part. Why are you ignoring that? Mel, who believes it so firmly, why are you ignoring that? Stannis, you're swallowing this lie when it's right in front of you. And he knows, too, about the sword. He even says, like, I don't feel heat.

Yeah. And he just wants to be special. But I think that the N nisa nisa part is obviously very much so left out like he considers it with edrick and he's obviously that gets chosen for him one way or the other and he decides to in the end like fine we'll do a different route we'll do it the good way we'll go north we'll help people but i think that he's probably also going to recognize that he's been ignoring it eventually i think like he's going to say that this must be the part that we're missing and i think it has a lot to do with we're reading his dark materials right now and there's a big kind of sacrificey moment and i won't spoil it but uh everything clicks for

this character and he's like this is what I've been missing everything else has failed me I have to do this thing like ah it's so obvious it's right here it like came just at the right time and it's almost like this weird bloodlust craziness that they choose this sacrifice and I think that's why Stannis is the one that does eventually have to probably burn Shireen, right? I mean, that's the big question mark, what if? And a lot of people argue that they think it'll be Melisandre doing it against his will, but I don't think so. Melisandre's already provided him the tools she needs for him to accept his destiny, and Davos kind of tends to think Stannis is a puppet under

Melisandre, but we know that he's not. This is who Stannis is. He's telling us who he is through his choices. Melisandre has simply handed him a match to light the bomb. And people think Dany's advisors are why she's going to go darker. But I don't really agree with that. Like, yeah, they can hand her matches all day long. But that proto-Dany towing that line of push comes to shove, I will make my destiny come true is what it's all about. You get that line in Davos 5 in A Storm of Swords.

She talks of prophecies. A hero reborn in the sea, living dragons hatched from dead stone. She speaks of signs and swears they point to me. I never asked for this, no more than I asked to be king. Yet dare I disregard her he ground his teeth we do not choose our destinies yet we must we must do our duty no great or small we must do our duty stanis really believes he's the hero like this is his last hope to cling on to he spent this whole life just being the the younger brother getting scraps is how he felt and he felt like

this was his truer calling and he's talking himself into things and justifying the means telling himself he's just even though he knows he has to do a terrible thing uh but someone had to do it and i think that's gonna play out the same way in the end of his arc i i think that a lot of these are really astute and something that stands out to me especially you know within the context of the conversation we're having right now about i think it can be summed up as kind of like the stories we tell ourselves because stannis what stood out to me as you said we do not choose our destinies in that quote. And I think that a lot of A Song of Ice and Fire, and they kind of tried to get at it at the end of the show, and I don't know if it necessarily landed, but we talked about this in our show recap episodes this past spring.

But there is that tension, right, of the choosing has always been hard in Jon's story. Choice is so important within Jon's story. And that idea of we do not choose our destinies, the fact of the matter is you can. You can choose to not be in the story status. You can choose to not have to do all

of these things and keep going further. They tried to set it up, I think, a little with Daenerys saying that you know people don't get to choose what world they live in and and we were talking about it with brand withholding information so that people would have the ability to make the choices for themselves even if he might know which way it goes but quentin you know you you brought it back to quentin earlier quentin thinks he doesn't have a choice

that he must do this thing to please his father because otherwise why did he go all this fucking way? Why did all of his friends die? He has no choice but to see it through to the end and That's the Spurn suitor, he says they are men, they want

gold, glory, power, that's all I'm trusting in. That and my own destiny. I'm a prince of Dorne. The blood of dragons is in my veins. And he says in The Dragon Tamer, he says, this is my duty. This is my destiny. When he says not all risks lead to ruin. And the mentions we do get of destinies, I mean, it all kind of revolves around that prophecy.

The Targaryens thought themselves gods, right? And how many of them died because of the prophecy that was passed down to say that Azor Ahai would come from Aerys and Rhaella's line? You know, like how many of them from that or that they would come from a line? How many of them have died from just playing with that? It's very apparent that it's a bad move to follow this prophecy and destiny thing. And Jon is the exact culmination of this. So we see that in him against Stannis, against Dany.

Jon is sitting here saying, nope, that wasn't a special thing I did. I'm not special, Stannis. And Stannis is saying, well, I'm special. So that's special. And Jon turning down and rejecting his Targaryen heritage maybe someday and rejecting his claim if he has a claim to the throne

as it seems he does rejecting those things that's him not making a destiny you know it's that whole like power thing of you know people who say they're the king are not the king and i know

we've tied that in with reluctant leaders not being great we've talked a lot about that on this podcast and how that's not a thing but it is also that like the people are better rulers as far as sound of mind when it's that way and john is that person yeah and i think that's it's really meaningful then that we get so much of this juxtaposition between Sienes and Jon. And it's so interesting that so many characters think they're very similar. But that's why, you know, we've talked about it before, all of these choices, these tests that Jon has put forth, these temptations. And that's because in each one of those, we get to see Jon choose his path. Jon choose his path and

in the end it seems like as you said he chooses to reject the Targaryen heritage he chooses to pull himself out of the story he's like everyone's trying to pull him in one direction trying to force him into like this idea of leadership and kingship etc and he just

keeps trying to be like I don't know I don't really want this and his story is him trying to choose to get out of it. Even when he does want it, he doesn't take it. We're about to see in the next chapter that we're not covering here tonight, that even though he admits that he wants very badly to have Winterfell, he gets a sign, and signs are an interesting thing you could go into for a long time to talk about, but he gets a sign that he thinks is telling him, no, this isn't for you.

Take yourself away from this. You're trying to be put down into this story in something that Stannis wants you to do. That's not where you are. That's not where your commitments are. It's not what's important to you. And yeah, he very much is, like you said, the agent of choice, the agent of choice that George uses, I think, to show that you can control a little bit, at least, of your own story. You get those moments to choose. And yeah, we talked a little bit about pre-stream about Daenerys and I also say Stannis too. They will have moments to choose things.

And what will they do? Will it go exactly how the show goes or, you know, what, but, um, I think it would be very interesting if Stannis saw the writing on the wall, saw that he was not who he's been pretending to be and made a different choice. And would that, uh, would that go against, or, or, or I guess, um, be a foil to Danny who will make a different choice um there's so there's so many ways this thing could could go um i've i've wondered before if maybe salise will actually be the one to bring shireen to the fires um after stannis has said no uh you get almost nothing with salise and shireen and their relationship and how not close they are um but in the end you get choices and

what you do with those choices that's what matters stannis we've seen makes awful choices when davos isn't on his shoulder telling him what to do and he's probably going to do it again i hope he doesn't unfortunately davos is a little distant right now because he's busy trying to get to skagos and uh so he might not be there is what i'm thinking because we've talked a lot about that moral angel and devil on the shoulder and if the angel's not there the devil gets to play and i do think that uh it will be the last choice it will be the last resort you know obviously it'll be if it happens it will have to be last resort it has to be like this is this is Stannis' no chance and no choice,

if we want to put it that way. And that's wild to think about, because what he does at a no chance, no choice is a lot different than the character. Like Brienne's no chance and no choice. Yeah. What you're saying, no chance and no choice, Brienne, because of the nature of her character,

the no choice part of it was yeah I have to go do this I have to the no chance but it's the but he's gonna make the opposite choice he's gonna make the weak choice the choice to kill a child right or at least that's what everyone thinks right so

choice man believing in a destiny narrows your choices yeah 50 50s you it's like you're playing who wants to be a millionaire and now you like have no lifelines left yeah and i think that's one of the arrows that john has in his quiver he was never told this stuff growing up danny believed from very young age that she was special stannis too to some degree from a very young age wanted to believe he was special and believed he should be and believing those things man it's it's it's dangerous chris rock in the kevin smith movie dogma says man beliefs are scary an idea is much better and that's loosely quoted but um

beliefs are tough hard to change beliefs um and that's the thing is john to quote harry potter harry potter you know like says when he finds out about magic he's like but i'm just harry john was just john he wasn't agon targaryen or amen targaryen or whatever the fuck you think his name is he was just john snow growing up good point yeah yeah Yeah. Yeah, good pull. You're Azor Ahai, Jon. Right, he wasn't told all that crap. Right. He has that going for him. You're a wizard, Jon. You're gonna take the fucking wolf and you're gonna like it!

Oh my god. Okay, you guys. Stannis and Jon have this huge filler recap. Big conversation. So we're gonna speed through it. Stannis is like, you saved Lord Mormont from zombies. And then he's like, you should help me it because stannis is like you saved lord mormont from zombies and then he's like you should help me too and john is like i am pledged to the watch so stannis becomes completely less flirty is the term eliana wants me to use and he tells him that he needs more than a sword from him which i think that's more flirty

personally but that might just be me i I think it's both, you know. He's trying not to show his heart, but here it is. Take it, John. Stannis, though, says that he needs the North. You're gonna do this quote. I'm gonna make you do this quote. This is who I am. I direct this now. Your brother was the

rightful lord of Winterfell. If he had stayed home and done his duty, instead of crowning himself and riding off to conquer the Riverlands, he might be alive today. Be that as it may, you're not Rob. No more than I am Rob. The harsh words had blown away whatever sympathy John might have had for Stannis. I loved my brother, he said. Stannis, he just... he can't help himself right he's gotta just throw the insults in to this to he's he's like down one knee with a ring and being like you've got webbed feet but will you marry me just keeps nagging john thinking it's gonna work and he doesn't he doubles down on it

later on it's very interesting like not everyone hates their brother status not everyone has this complex i mean yeah john has a complex but not like this like his relationship was somewhat healthy with his family ish like his brother at least before his brother left i mean obviously when they were kids there were things that happened but for the most part he didn't have that kind of problem he just things were how they were i don't know he didn't he also wasn't like i get to be king next he knew he couldn't be king ever yeah i don't know yeah stanis stop it's really rude yeah far too familiar yeah and i don't know whether he's doing it like there are people out there like I don't know is it is it gaslighting is that the term uh where you like he's like purposely like

putting down the family and stuff to like make him feel worse about himself so we can build him up later in a you know a not so genuine way maybe it's that I tend to think it's just Stannis being shitty yeah I think Stannis is projecting. Because all of this is how he feels. About his own family. He's projecting the insecurities. That he had. Of like I'm the rightful lord of X thing. He's like I was the rightful lord of Storm's End.

But I got Dragonstone. Which he thought was an insult. But turns out as George has said in the So Speak Martin. Not necessarily. Robert just didn't really think about that. But he meant to honor. Robert meant to honor stannis by giving him dragon stone and you know and stannis does that here being like you are not rob no more than i am robert and they have similar names and it's rob stark is a little bit named after robert but they clash as

older brothers so much in that stannis is going to be like, yeah, I also love my older brother, but he loved his older brother in a way that he longed for his older brother to notice him, right, and to love him back, whereas for Jon and all the other siblings, they all love Rob because Rob did love them back. Rob is who they wanted to be in a different

way because they, he was the perfect older brother. Yeah, very different relationships, you're're right and very different people and stannis is not differentiating them he can't he can't conceive of it he like had such a broken family he can't conceive of this idea of like oh what if like families could get along what yeah and he grew up in king's landing where everyone's like shitty and again it's like this so put john does john has no idea where he's going yeah yeah still he's like shitty. And again, it's like this. So put John does. John has no idea where he's going. Yeah. Still like,

okay. I loved my brother. What? What is, what is this? He has no idea. Still. We're like four pages into this conversation.

George created Sansa as the black sheep of the family to add a little tension. Now, John obviously already had his own tension by being the bastard, and that goes directly through Catelyn, but Robb and Theon and him always bullshitted around,

and Bran loved him, and Robb loved him. I mean, Theon didn't really love anyone. He just wanted to be them. He loved Robb. He loved Robb, yeah, that's it. He loved all of them deep down, but he hated himself for loving them. There's where I was going.

Yeah. But Jon did love them. I mean, Arya. Jon had great relations with his siblings. So this is just foreign to him. He's like, I don't know what you're trying to tell me. Like, no, Rob never made me command his armies and then never gave me the gift I actually wanted. I never expected gifts.

I never had any armies. Like, it's a different experience. He had, he had proud bird. That's it. But at least he didn't have, never mind. I was gonna say at least he didn't have bird lip, but whatever.

He did, though. Anyway, so now John is like oh god what's he's like sad-ish yeah John's like sad and confused and Stannis is like I think there's something

the notes say soft were you going for like the counter to erect no something maybe I actually might have been to cause he was teasing and the teasing was failing. John is now. Yeah, I think that actually is where I was going.

We wrecked your flow. Yeah, we actually talked about real serious things. Anyways, fuck that line. Anyways, so when John's like, yeah, I love my brother, Stannis is like, sure, Jan. John? And talks about how I'm the one true king now.

I am king. And all these other schmucks, they have their civil wars, whatever, but you know what I need? I need a lord of Winterfell. And then he winks several times over at John. Not literally, and John's like, there is no Winterfell anymore.

What? So Jan comes out finally and is like, there's no Winterfell anymore. What? So Jon comes out finally and is like, I'm a snail, not a stork. And Stannis is like, I can do something about that, bro. Like, I got you. Yeah. Jon has been presented with the Keymaster

to the Gate of Winterfell. And he keeps putting up it's it's more you've been given what you want no let me come up with every bullshit reason i can think of why i can't accept this thing i want so bad that would change my life so much and yet also make me a another oath breaker and all these things he comes up with all these reasons he can't right yeah and like uh why he's like it's like a dog chasing his tail right what do you do when you get it then too like he's like well and that's

where the wheels turn yeah yeah i mean that happens to a lot of people though you know you're there like oh i wanted this i didn't and it happens like i think a little bit in a song of ice and fire maybe does it does it not this idea of um yeah i wanted this but not like this well i mean you got ariana on her knees crying i was never supposed to be like this there's a crowning not like these not like this well and then you have maybe someday her becoming queen and what might happen. Yep. Yep. It's interesting, especially because then like he, like I said, the wheels start

turning and Lord Snow starts to sound different in his head. And Melisandre tries to tell Jon, well, your vows are invalid because your faith sucks and is wrong. So that's, you know. Yeah, she's like, those were real vows. You said them in front of a heart tree and like,

that's not a real faith. And I'm just like, this is a weird tactic. Turns out Melisandre's also? I don't know. It's a strange tactic. And she's like, yeah. Are they gonna have a threesome? Maybe. And she's like, you know, all you have to do is talk about how your faith is bullshit

and mine is real. And then you can just go burn. Burn everything from this thing that you actually do really believe, but it's bullshit. Read the room, Alessandra. Yeah, in my experience, your religion is garbage is not a great conversation starter. And, you know, spoilers again. This turns out to be like this religion thing, which I really thought of john is hugely religious which is interesting but it turns out to be kind of the reason he won't accept this offer right yeah it's forsaking everything he knows yeah and i mean his faith is his connection to his family to the north i get that and to Ghost. I mean, it would still be there regardless, but...

When Jon had been very young, too young to understand what it meant to be a bastard, he used to dream that one day Winterfell might be his. Later, when he was older, he had been ashamed of those dreams. Winterfell would go to Robb and then his sons, or to Bran or Rickon, should Robb die childless. And after them came Sansa and Arya. Even to dream otherwise seemed disloyal, as if he were betraying them in his heart, wishing for their deaths. I never wanted this, he thought as he stood before the blue-eyed king and the red woman. I loved Robb, loved all of them. I never wanted any harm to come to any of them. But it did, and now there's only me.

All he had to do was say the word, and he would be John Stark, and never more a snow. All he had to do was pledge this king his fealty, and Winterfell was his. All he had to do was forswear his vows again, and this time it would not be a ruse to claim his father's castle he must turn against his father's gods his father's gods dad it's it's really it's really about betraying his dad right yeah which is something i think you just said before eliana yeah there's this line in a dance with dragons in john 8 his father would never have approved i am the sword that guards the realm of men john reminded himself and in the end that must be worth more than one man's honor

i feel like that's gonna come back you okay there scad you good are you crying i just love that you they can't see the notes but i love that you that. You didn't even have it noted that those were words and you just switched so seriously. It's amazing. Thank you. I've, uh, yeah, hire me for the animated series, I guess, in 2030 when they remake it on a good budget. Oh, geez. And I've kind of been like hinting at this line, especially with the end game of Thrones,

you know, that happened there. You like that? Yeah. End game of thrones you know that happened there you like that yeah end game of thrones uh just the bold outlined ideas since we won't go into details but i feel like this is what's really projecting john through this story and in a storm of swords especially with all the egrit guilt we've talked about and how we think that may come back in the future uh just that i am the sword that guards the realm of men and in the end that must be worth more than one man's honor.

It's what Ned did himself. So of course this is going to be his dedication to Ned that he could never do that to Ned even though he doesn't know what Ned sacrificed but Ned did this sacrifice. He took all of his honor and he just threw it out a window to protect Jon and somehow he had to deal with the ramifications of supporting the party that would kill John

and deal with all that shit. And John has no idea how far Ned's honor really went. He doesn't know. I think someday he'll know and someday he will understand. He'll probably be angry and hurt at first, but eventually he'll understand and get that depth of that kind of thing. And it will probably comfort him in his time of need because i think he's gonna have to trade you know his honor his name you know the

stain on his name for that yeah i'm so glad you brought this up you know this must be worth more than one man's honor this uh being the sword that guards their own men because that's really what the subtext of this whole chapter is about stannis is asking these things yes he wants support for his run at the kingship and whatever but really he's talking about the enemy he needs to fight and john needs to remember that too in the choices that he's making this is all this is none of none of this is about what i want or winterfell or any of that. This is about that enemy that's out there. And it should be the backdrop to this whole chapter. But as George has done for this entire series, you forget about it. You get into, you get swept up in the politics and the personal stuff about inheriting the castle and being a bastard and how I feel about my family.

You get sucked into all those things. And it's like, remember the backdrop of this whole conversation is the enemy out there yeah yeah but john's kind of trying to be like i don't know this doesn't have to be the way that it happens me he's like there must be a way for me to stand against this enemy without having to forswear those vows i guess absolutely because this is very much built up as that like now it's like at the point where it's like so john i would love to defeat this enemy for you since no other kings if you remember came calling and you're very brave and you you know your brother kind of sucked in my opinion but your dad was honorable enough and you're a brave bastard, so what say you?

Like, will you give me a back rub so I can give you a back rub? That's what he said, right? That's what he's saying, but with the context of back rubs kill others. Yeah, that's exactly it. But that's, like, straight up. He is. He's like, okay, I would love to help you, so now you should help me so i can help you and that's like that's not how the night's watch works that's true and that's the problem because he's coming to this place and he's not respecting the rules

and he thinks it's his place technically because he's the king but the king doesn't rule over the night's watch that's the thing like the king doesn't give a shit anymore about the night's watch probably because they don't get to rule the Night's Watch obviously if it was corrupt and the king was in charge of the Night's Watch then yeah that would probably be a different story but it's a separate realm I mean right there they're like in this gray area right

it's not the good place it's not the bad place it's the neutral place yeah a medium place yeah with Mindy St. Clair medium place yeah with midi st claire medium place uh and yeah as you said stannis doesn't it's it's not his place and he's just at every point in time kind of disrespecting he's kind of disrespecting john's vows in doing so like that's kind of rude this is a big deal everyone was like john are you sure you want to make this choice? And he's like, I want

to do this. I want to pledge to the Night's Watch. It's cost him so much and for Stannis to be like, it didn't mean anything. It's pretty fucking rude. A lot of people died for it. I also want to point out something really dumb. John

being like, if he took Winterfell, which would be his father's castle, and this time it would not be a ruse. I Jon being like, if he took Winterfell, which would be his father's castle, and this time it would not be a ruse. This time it would not be a ruse. Bolton. Nope. Taking the castle. You're fired. I had to do it at least. I had to do it.

Sorry. Yeah, in the next quote Stannis tries to fucking nag Jon Snow into agreeing. Like, this time he really goes in on it. It may be that I am mistaken in you, Jon Snow. You both know the things that are said of bastards. You may lack your father's honor, or your brother's skill in arms, but you are the weapon the Lord has given me. This is a very bold move on Stannis' part, I guess, for his conversation tactics, and Jon's just like surprised Pikachu meme, but okay. And then Stannis tries another tactic where he's like, alright,

so we've gotta reform because the wildlings are coming back soon and we need to all hold the wall, and I think it's interesting that Stannis is doing this. We've seen this actually in a couple of other characters a few times where they try different tactics, usually in threes, because like literature, right? To convince other characters to do what they want. We see Ariane do it to all the people who

visit her in the tower, and Sansa also, and each of them are imprisoned as they try to get information or get freedom. But here are the three things that Stannis is using to try to get Jon to like, accept Winterfell, which is one, he's like, I'll remove the taint of bastardy, too. We're gonna preserve your honor, I guess. And then finally, he's like, we're protecting the realm. It's true. His delivery's bad. It's bad.

He puts them in a bad order. He prioritizes the wrong things. his it's bad he puts them in a bad order he prioritizes the wrong things but but in in the end again i kind of brought this up maybe too early before but like the message is correct the others are coming i know you took a vow i know you took an oath i know she's telling you to burn your wherewood i'm sorry that sucks but guess what the only thing that matters and you believe this i think the only thing that matters is out there everything we have to do should be around that idea i know we're giving up a lot of stuff here but this is the problem we need to solve right and his delivery sucks.

Yeah. Well, and now that I think about it, the show also kind of did this thing with Dani in the past season where it's like she decided to go north and fight first as long as Jon came with her, to give you some context, yeah. And that's something that's interesting because that's kind of what Stannis

is saying he's doing, but at the same time he's like, but I like, promise that you're going to fight with me. Like, he's like, yeah, I'll help you. But, and that's fine. I'm signing on. But I need a lord. And I need to know that you're going to fight with me afterwards. And he's trying to make him, like, promise now.

And it's almost like Jon's already had those, like, moments he could go back on his vow. Like, with Corrin and the Wildlings. And he ends up breaking at the very last second and it makes me wonder if he's thinking about like how he would break this for a second you know like oh i could do this and break at the last second and you know like break my promise to him but i don't know there's also something in this almost a dig at like maybe at him being bedridden and dying before Stannis arrived? Or like his fighting and how the Watch's force is so depleted? Because

he says that he doesn't have his brother's skill in arms, and I'm like, how do you know that, Stannis? I mean, I'm not saying he does quite yet, but he's gotten a lot better, and also, how does he know that? Rob Stark's campaign was pretty legendary.

Yeah. So I guess that's why. I mean, everyone's like, damn, 16-year-old boy standing up against and defeating Tywin. Right. Good job, kid. Yeah, he's just assuming. Whereas we know that, I can't remember which way it goes now, but there's a quote in there somewhere where Jon says that he was either the better sword or the better lance. I don't remember which.

I think he was the better sword. But, yeah, it's a dig, I think. Negging. Yeah. Yeah. But also, yeah, you know, Rob is kind of legendary at this point. It's just an interesting tactic because it's like you do know that Jon just fought this battle and you see how weary the forces are from it so it's like okay

yeah speaking of Rob I just want to remind people another of Skad's many accolades Skad also won one year at Ice and Fire Con oh god he won the fan fiction contest in which

people drew names right out of a hat And they had to write a fanfic I guess Putting these two characters together And Scab, tell us about what you wrote Tell us the name first of all Well first of all I didn't write it I performed it

If you will My maybe favorite person in the fandom is Anne. Anne Sweet, who introduced us to Ariana. And she and I were partnering in this fanfiction

contest, and we drew Jamie and Rob, and we together, although I think she did more of the writing wrote the story of the Whispering Wood amazing deliver on Tondra

wherever you feel like in that title and it was fun it was fun I I can't believe you brought it up here this is where it made sense right and Anne Sweet if you can find her on YouTube. Hey, Anne. She did get most of that on film, I think, in one of her little travelogue things that she does on her YouTube channel.

Yeah, it's SweetYFT. Thank you, yes. I'm awful at promotion. I'm awful at promotion. Stannis continues talking about letting the wildlings through and his plans to possibly resettle the gift. And Jon says, my dad had the same idea too, but not with wildlings. Mostly because my dad didn't know any wildlings. So, you know, this sounds fine.

Yeah. I mean, again, it's like he's asking for a lot giving land away letting wildlings through it's but the stakes the stakes are the others right and that's what matters just harp on it again because stannis those people that love stannis this is what they point to right he is all in on these stakes yeah but he also needs to stop with the technicalities right now obviously because john still hasn't said yes so like john already has and also the assumptive close yeah and also it's like john doesn't have the authority and you saying that you're giving him the authority is the same thing as Jano Slint coming there acting like he's gonna have authority

for Tywin. It's kind of like, I don't know, it's just like, why are you assuming you have that authority against Janus? It's not staying in your lane. And he does, the next thing he does is, again, giving away another thing that he doesn't have the right to give away, like how he goes

in with, if you call in the next 48 hours, I'm going to add a hot wildling princess to your lordship. ShamWow. My favorite of those are when they just give you more of the same thing you're ordering. It's 62 steak knives! I was fine with eight. I wonder what what are you gonna do with all those but yeah john's like well you can't just give away wild like women that's not how it works he's like they don't they don't believe in that

no no i mean you know he's clearly out of his depth culturally on this but but he has the right idea i mean um you know like trying to earn their loyalty it's just you can't do that with them it's not doesn't work the way the rest of the world you know works but it's a symbol and i think it would work to some degree john does the same fucking thing uh later with alice carstark and and uh sigourn except you know he doesn't really give them away. He kind of arranges it. But same idea to try to get that kind of loyalty

working together. He obviously is like very yes, wildling woman? No, Stannis. You can't try your stuff with them. But everyone else, yeah, you're free to play around, I guess. Yeah. Go make alliances elsewhere. Go make marriage alliances somewhere else.

When he does match up Alice and Sigourn, it's obviously, like, geographically helping her, claim-wise, right, in landing, fighting back against her shitty family. But he's also giving away a northern girl, which she's totally cool with, and whatever, you know, she's like, all right, this saves my life, sure.

But he's doing it for the North. And Jon doesn't really have the right to make that marriage alliance for the North. Right. That's not what the Night's Watch does. So Stannis is doing all these things right now. But later when Jon does that, he's like giving into that. I could be a Northern Lord bit. And yeah, she came as a refugee to the wall.

But the Lord Commander of the night's watch doesn't make marriage arrangements that's not what they do that's not like okay so he's bending his vows later on with that and it's interesting because he is reminded of aria through alice and that's the first bending but the next Arya where he goes to save Arya from Winterfell is what kills him yeah I remember when we first covered this stuff on Tava's fingers just freaking out when he's

making these arrangements and marrying people off and you know just he's forgetting what that role really means that he's now it's not your job yeah stay in your lane like you said he's you know we talked about how similar stannis and john in are a lot of ways he's maybe learning from stannis here yeah is this line here maybe it's maybe it's five feet that way where is this

line well and what happens when you cross the line that you shouldn't have crossed you die new line oh yeah actually though that is what happens literally what happens so not everybody not the first time not the first time he has to cross it like several times yeah it really says something that like those men are pretty uh they're pretty forgiving john i'm just saying so you shouldn't have pushed it reading it reading it again and when we cover them and you guys will get there and dance like it is it's really easy to see why the Night's Watch is fed up with Jon it's

really easy to see the way George writes it I didn't pick up on it the first time I read it but like covering it on the podcast like he does things and you get it mostly through his POV and so it's somewhat normalized like again this is about the others. We have to do everything we can about the others. And so you get that feeling,

but looking at it from their perspective, it is easy to see you're trotting all over everything they're about to do what you're trying to do. And like, he just does not see it partially because he alienates himself from his friends and stuff which is um yeah for sure but in this moment john is still trying to be like no i'm not that amy and he uses the word whoever in regards to who will take winterfell and stannis is just like oh so you're refusing me no he's like no one has ever said no to me before but actually

that's not true everyone said no to him many times which is why he's actually here at the wall a lot of people have said no to stannis very many people everyone in fact except malisandre that's true uh and then so john finally goes and he goes sings M2M's Don't Say You Love Me from the first Pokemon movie I never understood why they chose this song for that movie it haunts me to this day and he asks give me some time to make this decision

and yeah he I think he's like well let's not be hasty I didn't mean I won't I didn't mean I won't just hold on let's back up a minute let's not go tooy. I didn't mean I won't. I didn't mean I won't. Just hold on. Let's back up a minute. Let's not go too fast. You know, this is when you overplay your hand a little bit,

and they're about to take the offer back, right? And you're like, wait a minute. Let's keep talking about this a little bit. There's that, and also he's just like, I'm not trying to piss off this king who just helped us out. Yeah. A shit ton. I mean, no one else is helping them.

Yeah. So it is kind of like a stale, like a checkmate, right? Like, this is like a, what do I do? I mean, I'm not saying it's not a hard, it's always been hard, the choosing. Yeah. The choosing's coming soon. At the Night's Watch,

for the new leader. But until then, Stannis is like, okay, fine, you have some time, but don't tell anyone about what happened here. And then he ends by telling him, you need only bend your knee, lay your sword at my feet, and pledge yourself to my service.

You shall rise again as Jon Stark, the Lord of Winterfell. Man. Stark. Stark. Stark. Everything he's ever wanted is right there, and what will our hero do? What will he do? I'm telling you, whatever he

does, it's gonna be with angst. It really will. It'll be while he listens to Hawthorne Heights or, like, Fugazi, even if we want to go farther back. Do you guys, Ian McKay... Matt always uses Dashboard Confessional, which I don't know. Oh, yeah, I like that too. That's a good one to look at, Dashboard Confessional.

I could see him really jamming up to the song again, I Go Unnoticed. Your guess is as good as mine. I have no idea who Dashboard Confessional is. You just threw the name out there and didn't know. That's what Matt always says. I know that's John's soundtrack according to matt yes yeah i mean this chapter to me is so much about just like i'm in the middle of a conversation i have no idea what's even going on right now that's most of my summary of this chapter is john

just being like okay i'm up on the wall it's cold i have no idea what this guy's going on about but i don't really want to piss him off I also don't want to give in to him and give him all the power What is going on That is like my summary What's going on Oh there you go It could be Four Nine Blondes

It could be The Middle by Jimmy Eat World It could be That is a good one maybe an acoustic version Of The Middle I don't know There could be. Oh, I love that song. That is a good one. Maybe an acoustic version of the middle. I don't know. There could be a couple songs. God, I really feel for John, man. This is really rough because this is like

he could take the easy way out. Yeah. He's not going to, but he could. On the cast, when we did it, I said he should. I said if you're really looking at the goal and I'm not sure I feel the same way about it now but if you're really looking at the goal of defeating the others

taking this might be the best thing for everybody and you're going to piss a lot of nights watch people off but if you get more troops to the wall that's doing what we need to do that's true you's doing what we need to do. That's true.

You're sacrificing a lot, but the first part of this chapter really, or the first thoughts I have on this chapter are really just about this is a verbal, this is a verbal sparring where like, neither one of them even knows what they're punching at. That's true. Stannis is usually the one who, in fact, the last two two times you see him he's the one that's being asked for stuff people are coming to him asking to uh to burn uh to burn edrick right that's basically the last two times we see him people are always begging him for for permission to do things and stannis is this is flipped for him on this one he has to ask someone else for something and he's no good at it he's probably never been had to do it in his life and he doesn't know how further his co-counsel mel also gives zero fucks about it and just wants to bludgeon john into

doing what they want just burn the godswood yeah so between not knowing how to do it you know and just generally being stannis-y about it he's's awful at it, and it takes forever to even get to the point. And this perhaps is the best summary of Stannis in the series for some people to me. He puts people off. His nature is such that no one is comfortable around him, nor agreeable to who his approaches or caresses at all, right? He's the worst candidate for becoming a king but maybe he wouldn't be the worst ruler of them but he but he's terrible at becoming one no nobody you can't no one can suffer his touch oh yeah that's a that's a way to phrase it and then and then the second half when you come

back and you look at it as you should with the scope of every single thing you look at in the series is the existential threat of the others right and that is when you're talking about you know should i be driving a tesla or a dodge ram and the other people are like horse and carriage is cool you're like no dummy like this is out there about to kill us and so it's Like, this is out there about to kill us. And so it's... It's... For all Stannis' grinding lack of social awareness and effectiveness, at least he knows what the score is right now. Yeah.

Right? And so it's hard for him to be patient, and Mel too, when they feel like they know what the real problem is. I mean, he's offering Winterfell to this random bastard that he doesn't actually really know yeah that's true to give him that credit he is humbling himself and coming to this guy and being like look you're the last of the

Starks and you're all I got and I don't want to give it to any of these other dudes you're who I would like to give it to I feel like you're a better suitor it's your place and I feel like there just isn't it's hard to really judge both ways on that right because you have some of these little good things like it would be john would be great as the ruler

of winterfell when you think about it reluctant leaders usually aren't great we see robert baratheon uh but john would be different because he does love winterfell and that's what stops him from accepting it because he would have to burn down the Weirwood and burn his family's gods down and he would be able to change any of it. He decides that the price was too high and it was not worth paying. Yes.

And I think there's a little bit of that fear from his childhood too of Rob and him fighting with swords in the yard. And him saying, I'm Aemond the Dragon Knight. And him saying, I'm the Lord of Winterfell. And Rob saying, no, you're not. I think that's in there. I think that's deep, deep, deep, deep-seated within there.

And he knows because all of these dreams he's had, you know, the kings of Winterfell telling him, like, this is not your place. Yeah. And we know he had a place. Lyanna would have made sure there was a place for him and if uh if the ideas are right there he probably has probably has a place on the throne even if he wants it there was always a place for john somewhere um but he's grown up thinking that there isn't and it's always gonna feel that way yeah for sure for sure um so scad a needle pulling thread what oh yes um you know you as you said and we've talked about a couple times throughout this episode, have covered this chapter many, many moons ago. Many, many years ago. Way back in, like, what?

2016. How has this chapter, like, do you still feel the same about it? You said at one point just now that you didn't in terms of what you think Jon should have done. You said at one point just now that you didn't in terms of what you think Jon should have done. So like, I don't know, how have you evolved in your relationship to this chapter or interpretation of it or you as a person and therefore the chapter? what it's really about, about being about characters and choices and who you are, what you believe and how you stand for that. You know, what I just said about John making this choice because it's better for everyone, that may be tactically true, but we're humans. We have emotions. You know, we're led by them. You can't make those kinds of choices when it destroys who you are. And so I don't think I agree with the tactical stance

of taking this choice and doing it, even though the existential threat of the others, as I just said, is there. Because if you start living your life that way, you know, you aren't you. So I think that's how I've changed my opinion of this chapter yeah and and overall my read of the series the man's thing right like i was listening to that

episode too and i'm like oh yeah you should just kill mance he says himself in his thoughts it'll be over if he just did that like that's not who john is just murdering someone in cold blood that's not who john is and so you know while it made sense tactically you can't you can't go against your character you are who you are and if you fight that you know you've lost if you betray that so yeah the actions the things that you choose become who you are ultimately absolutely how they define you what about you have you guys

as rereading have you changed what you feel about this I've never thought I never like thought about like I think John's storyline and choices especially or I think this decision um

as much I don't think I've changed in the belief that Jon shouldn't be Lord of Winterfell, because for me, I'm like, I don't know, Jon, you made a fucking commitment. You said you're going to be part of the Night's Watch, and you gotta do it.

But that's just me, personally, that's who I am. I think he's struggling with that conflict, right, of who he wants to be loyal to, and we actually talked about this in our His Dark Materials episode we just put out, but there's a moment where

there's a really conflicting kind of relationship with two different characters, and the main character thinks, like, oh, who do I owe the most obedience to and for john it's you know do i owe obedience to stannis or how am i going to keep these men as well i owe obedience to my men i owe he owes the men of the wall that have fought with him and fought wild things. And especially since he just had that whole little oath-breaking thing a little bit ago. And, you know, things aren't looking so good. Yeah, he has a PR disaster.

He's got a PR disaster. Yeah. He doesn't have a whole lot of credit to deal with, right? Yeah, he can't be taking these debts like this out. He doesn't have credit right now with the wall. He's barely fighting his way back into their good graces he got lucky because you know alice and thorn and jano suck and no one likes them or listens to them mostly ish as of now but they will eventually when he keeps

slipping but i think uh i think he wants all this i think he says no because he knows better and he doesn't trust himself either with it. And I think that he starts to let that facade slip through the whole next book because in A Dance with Dragons, he begins to embrace what it's like to kill the boy and let the man be born, like Aemon comes to tell him. And it's almost the same advice as like Quaithe in the stars telling Daenerys to remember who she is. Right. It's that moment of just like, this is who you're going to be, embrace it. And he embraces it. And earlier, Skadi, you were talking about how, you know, in Jon's POV,

we don't see those choices as rough as you would from another's. But when we get that same exact Sam chapter, only from Sam's point of view, that's what nails it for me. When you see Jon's expressions and the acting. That's what tells me what other people are seeing him do in A Dance with Dragons. And him taking on

the Lord face, as we've talked about, it just kind of turns out that when you play the Game of Thrones, you win or die, right? He played politics and he loses yeah or does he gets to live in a world he gets a he gets a revive he gets a second chance card yeah i'm just i'm just thankful that i can join you guys to talk about this kind of stuff because

uh i think it just it speaks to the power of i guess podcasts but friendship or whatever that you can read something so many times and until you talk to other people about them you know like your opinions maybe don't change as much well and maybe and this might be a little i don't know eliana stop me if you think this is off kilter but maybe the true song of ice and fire is actually the friends we made along the way i mean unless you're standing yeah that's true then it's just the books but if you're us if you're us yeah yeah i i waffle so it depends on really how i'm feeling at any day you know every every time the question is asked of what is the true song of Ice and Fire,

the gods toss a coin. And... On one side is the... That implies there's only two answers. We're still waiting for that coin to drop, too. Penny in the air. On one side, it's the books. On the other side, it's the friends you made along the way.

Really, truly. Oh, I see. Depends. Oh, I see. All right, Two-Face. Any closing thoughts? Scat, I know we've exhausted your brain on everything you could give us. I'm so happy we had such a good depth filled episode.

I'm worried about going forward because our buddies over at Nauticast, they started Stannis and they had to put out eight hours of episodes right away. This is our first Stannis-y episode episode really right like in-depth stanis episode so if this is foretelling of the future i worry for us so thank you for helping us with that it's probably more foretelling of what a wind no no i mean i i know that i waxed too much poetic because i just got so many ideas from you and i'm worried now because I'm like oh god Stannis is that kind of character isn't he that like you talk about him and you

can talk for hours about the guy it's a very interesting character yeah no matter what you think about him he's very interesting to bullshit about yeah I think the thing is like no matter what you think about him whether you think he's a good person or a bad person he's a good character yes a bad person he's a good character

yes which goes for most of these things most of these people right in this book in this series I mean I think I think my biggest regret about this whole experience is that I couldn't bring the sexual entendre

the double entendre the sexiness that Matt brought that matt that's my biggest regret about this whole thing is it really because because what i hate nothing more than making matt right and what he said at the end was that you know this would not be as fun an episode it would be more more thoughtful and that sucks i hate that he's right. No, it is fun. They're just different kinds of fun. Like, there are different kinds of fruits and birds. Oh my god. And outlaws and birds? Is that what you're going for?

I don't know. Some of them will poop on your lip, and some of them will sit on your lip. Oh my god, bird lip. I'm really glad that I brought you guys bird lip. I know. I'm so excited to use it someday. I just have to find a good opportunity. You have kids. Yeah, you have children. You just do it to them. You can just do it to them. Now you have a dad joke to use it someday. I just have to find an opportunity. Yeah, you have children.

You just do it to them. Now you have a dad joke to use for my dad to you. I will take it heartily. Yeah, you have to report back as to how they react to it. Yeah, to Bird Lib. I will do so. I will do so. This has been a discussion.

We covered a lot of corners. We did. I'm glad I learned so many things every time we have discussions I learn so many things and we have so much still like we don't this is we have what we have John 11 is now we have John 12

and then is there's only one more after this right so we yeah we have 12 oh my god we're almost at Dance with Dragons. What are we gonna do? A dub-a-dub. It's one more chapter and it's short. It's only like eight pages.

Well, we certainly have a lot to contemplate for that chapter. We are gonna have to bring it to end out a storm of swords and we're gonna move into a lot of the stuff we talked about tonight. A dance with dragons. Indeed.

Good luck with that, you guys. I'm so excited to hear more. Thank you so much for coming on again, Skad. We were so lucky. It was my pleasure. I feel just blessed to be asked, to be honest. Stop being Jon Snow, alright? We're trying to compliment you

no i we don't matt said this we don't we don't do this a lot we don't we're like uh we're like the jokesters on the side of the fandom that like don't do deep analysis i don't i don't think we get uh you know i i i'm i'm just i feel super lucky. Thank you for that. Well, anytime. You are always welcome on. We would love to have you back sometime. As you know, we will have other chapters and other characters, so maybe not another John, but maybe in the future.

Maybe we'll get you guys for a namesake episode, you know, pull you in for a Davos. Yes! Eventually. I think we have to. I think it's illegal not to. Yeah. Well, I loved doing it solo with you guys. Yep, I'm not gonna even

comment on it. You gotta have your double entendres, aren't you pleased? I got one in there. Dirty humor rides again. We never stop writing, ever. Oh my god. Yep, it continues.

Please let everyone know where they can find Davos Fingers and you on the internet, or if you don't want them to follow you, I guess don't tell them. We are DavosFingers at gmail.com is our email address. You can find us on Patreon at patreon.com forward slash Davosfingers at gmail.com is our email address you can find us on patreon at patreon.com forward slash davosfingers twitter is where we're most found that's just at davosfingers and uh matt you'll get to interact with there mostly he's usually manning the twitter and uh davosfingers.com is our website you we have a this podcast called davosfingers that you can find on uh podbean uh or itunes or you know places i think that's it i think i hit them all i'm really bad at the promotion that sounds about

right you did great i was uh i was impressed i give it a nine out of ten you did amazing sweetie yeah no one's perfect you know the bar is low oh thanks not even me or Eliana. Eliana's close, but. It's perfect. It's gonna work it. As always, it's been a pleasure, you guys. You can find us on the internet, Girls Gone Canon on Twitter, or girlsgonecanon at gmail.com. If you want to hit us an email, chat about the show, ask us a question,

send us your Girls Gone Canon episode. Don't take that out of context. Yeah. For some reason, no one sent us anything a few weeks ago. We were like, send us your version of Girls Gone Canon episode. Don't take that out of context. Yeah, for some reason no one sent us anything a few weeks ago. We were like, send us your version of Girls Gone Canon. No one fucking did. I'm disappointed. I thought somebody would. I thought we could have won.

I thought so too, and nothing. Even like some harassment, you know? I don't know. Whatever. Anyway, you know, I guess you don't have to make us a Girls Gone Canon episode. You could just listen to Girls Gone

Canon episodes on Google Play or iTunes or Spotify or Podbean or Stitcher or Acast or something else that we, I'm never going to learn it. It's overcast. We'll get there. Yeah.

Hey, we do have a Patreon. Give it a check out if you have a little money burning in your pocket $5 and up patrons do get special episodes every single month we just put out recently mentorship in a song of ice and fire it's a blast we're excited for this month's episode we'll be releasing that

sometime this month and be letting you know very soon what it's about. Check it out, patreon.com slash girlsgonecanon. Yes, check out our things on Patreon. And of course, as we said earlier, we are diving even deeper into His Dark Materials and we'll be putting those episodes out more frequently. As always, I have been Chloe, one of your hosts. And I've been Eliana, another one of your hosts. Thanks, guys. Talk to you soon.