Girls Gone Canon Cast - ASOIAF Episode 66 - ASOS Jon XII/Outro

Episode Date: September 13, 2019

  Jon's name is chosen from the Triwizard Cup (translation: Jon is elected Lord Commander of the Watch.) Check out next week's guest Maester Merry's essay The Last Temptation of Lord Commander Snow Pt 1    THE CALL by Mattia Cupelli, full track @ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHF8w7Jpugc --- Eliana's twitter: https://twitter.com/arhythmetric   Eliana's reddit account: https://www.reddit.com/user/glass_table_girl Eliana's blog: https://themanyfacedblog.wordpress.com/ Chloe's twitter: https://twitter.com/liesandarbor Chloe's blog: www.liesandarborgold.com   

Hello and welcome to Girls Gone Canon, A Song of Ice and Fire, episode 66, John 12 in a Storm of Swords, and John in a Storm of Swords outro. I am one of your hosts, Chloe. You know me from the internet as Liza and Arbor on Twitter, Tumblr, and of course, LizaandArborGold.com. And hello, I am Eliana, another one of your hosts. You might know me as GlassTableGirl on Reddit, on the Mace Monthly podcast, maybe Arithmetric over on Twitter. Weird. It's empty.

I feel like it's so weird now that we haven't had a guest for two weeks. I know. I'm so lonely. I know. Wait, I'm right here. I'm literally right here. I know. I know.

There must be a third. We will find a third head of our fire signs someday. Our Sagittarius. Only Sagittarius are allowed to apply unfortunately not scattatarius sorry yeah we asked him his sign it was it was the wrong one wrong element entirely even oh god but we're here it's us it is a little quieter we're here. It's us. It is a little quieter. We're going to end a storm of swords quietly with each other. A nice night in. We are. Nice sober afternoon night. Whatever.

Yes, absolutely. We do have a few emails and tweets of note. We're not completely alone this week. We had a great comment actually from Patreon from our friend Michael who said, Great episode in regards to fashion hour. John taking the time to get ready in a way he is comfortable reminds me of Ned's first small council meeting.

Ah, that was very clever. I did not think of that. I'm like, why didn't I think of that? That's so smart. I know. Same. I thought that was really good. I know. I was like, we should have thought of this. Damn it, Michael. Michael, are you a Sagittarius? What do you want? He was-

Third girl gone canon? He was sweaty, tired, had to wear someone else's clothes. He should have had them postpone it. John played it right. Yeah, just to clarify that he was sweaty was referring to John, not Michael. Yes. Maybe Michael is. We don't know.

Maybe he is a fire sign. Yeah. Also, he said that in regards to John's sword, he saw Longclaw as a symbol of legitimacy. It's a Valyrian steel sword given to him by the previous Lord Commander. He's meeting with a king who might try to get the Night's Watch to do his bidding. And by appearing as close to an equal as he could, Stannis cannot treat him like someone to be ordered around. I thought those were really interesting points, Michael. Good job. Yeah, I think these were just great insights on a lot of, you know, how we've been talking about clothing being part of that political stuff and those

power plays. So this was really good. I think the moment it came in, I was like, Chloe, Chloe, that comment is really good. I know. it came in i was like chloe chloe that comment is really good i know i was like this comment is so good wow i i am mad like we're better i'm mad that we didn't think about dad i know in this in this context we thought about dad differently but we weren't thinking about dad's clothes you know we weren't thinking about john snow learning how to tie a tie from ned star oh my god we did get another we got an email actually from our friend warren if you want to read it warren says best book episode yet including the

sons of blackwater extravaganza warren uh was very impressed with having scat on for this discussion with stannis and says i've always been curious as to what exactly the attraction is with stannis and i think this episode might just show exactly the reasons people love stannis are the same as the reasons people hate him i personally am meh on stannis but i do think he has a characteristic of a good king but a terrible leader go work on your people skills stanny boy it was a really good conversation last week i think it was funny i i am still worried about stannis being our next 85 million hour episode a la blackwater as warren points out our blackwater extravaganza that was actually 7 322 million wait that's not a number fuck that was actually 7 billion 300 million 20 000 hours long uh that was a real number i had to make sure

but i i thought it was interesting he said that he thinks stannis would be a good king but a terrible leader i don't think he'd be a good king personally in the end i think that he is just and righteous but i think that we obviously know he doesn't have some certain touches that make him kingly you know there are different kinds of leadership he's a good leader militarily right that's what i've seen him do that well and we've seen him do well in other sorts of leadership positions as for being a good king i think it really depends on what you think kingship is about and a lot of people of course bring different things to the table with it and a song of ice and fire it kind of explores what does it mean to be a king in different ways we see

stannis progress as a character throughout the books which is interesting and i think is part of why a lot of people like his character. I'm not sure I see him as having the necessarily empathy needed in all situations to always make the right call because a king, granted, of course, a king is not a president, right? It's not the same. But ideally, a king is looking out for the best interests of his people. And just don't know if sanus has always the right judgment or empathy for that i i think he's lacking on the empathy a lot i don't think uh i see him as a good leader military wise like you were saying tactfully tactfully speaking i just don't see him as a good king um for the same reasons that maybe john wouldn't be a good king.

But John accepts that and knows that as far as he finally says, no, not for me, right? As far as leadership. But he wants to be. He wants to be a good leader. I think John finds a really big balance of, I want to be a good leader, but also I don't want to be that kind of leader.

And maybe it's just from these characters like Stannis that he's around that burnout, you know? Yeah. Jon Snow's more fadeaway than burnout, I guess. I guess he's fadeaway at one point. At the beginning, he's more just like, I really wanted a great pun for this, but I don't have one. He's just being stabbed. Someone takes him out. He's taken out instead of any of the other kinds of

kinds of flare-outs speaking of things forgotten uh we're doing a patreon episode this month shadow fox one of our patrons said that they would love to talk about semi-forgotten characters that will make a return in the winds of winter or in the story and how they contribute. So we're going to talk about forgotten characters in A Song of Ice and Fire this month on our Patreon episode. If you haven't visited our Patreon, it is patreon.com slash girlsgonecanon. They specified, you know, forgotten characters and how they might influence make a return in Winds and they kind of, they kind of gave you some restrictions, Chloe. Yeah, they said i'm not allowed to talk about howland reed and that's not fair because howland reed won't be in the winds winter

he'll be in a dream of spring i it's also it's also that i think howland reed is not forgotten no no everyone remembers how absolutely no we uh we're looking at a smaller scale we're definitely gonna think about smaller characters that don't come up in your everyday conversations with your friends. It's not just, you know, the Daenerys versus Jon versus the Starks discourse every single day, believe it or not, but the small stuff. A small character

can cast a big shadow. A very big shadow. So we're going to talk about that. Indeed. More to come. You will see that out towards the mid-end of the month. We also have another exciting announcement, but this one's for next week. It is. We have, again, we're lonely. We're lonely here now with just the two of us with our empty nest. So we've decided to bring someone else on to talk about Jon with us.

Yes, we are going to be bringing one of our really good friends, Maester Mary, on. If you've ever seen her wonderful work, she put out a great piece about Jon Snow, an essay about Jon, and his arc in Adora, A Dance with Dragons, affectionately. So we are going to have Mary on, up from under Winterfell, is her blog on WordPress, for Jon 1 in A Dance with Dragons, and the introduction to Jon in A Dance with Dragons. And of course that's Mary M-E-R-R-Y. She is working on her second essay and we'll let her talk a little bit more about that

when she comes to join us next week. I'm sure she's going to love that. Us saying, Mary, how's your essay going? I remember every time anyone would ask me Eliana, how's your essay going? I'm just like, ahahaha. Same, let's just stop saying

those words they're actually kind of making me anxious so uh chloe how's it which one oh this lightning round how's the lightning round coming chloe well let's talk about tyrian 11 freed from the black cells by various tyrian seeks the truth in King's Landing one last time, before making a very dramatic exit by killing his dad and Shae. Tyrion, I'm shitting! Fuck you, dad! Pew pew pew! It's a quote from Westeros, an American musical.

Okay, you're right. Samwell 5. Stannis commands the brothers of the Watch to choose a new commander, and Samwell is advised by Maester Aemon on Stannis' nature before playing the game. Of thrones. Of chairs. Just chairs right now. With Cotter Pike and Dennis Malister.

Which of course brings us to Jon 12 in A Storm of Swords. Iron Emmett beats Jon into his past in the yard, where he remembers a very bitter memory. Janos Slynn and Alistair Thorne feel certain their scheming will pay off in the election, but when Jon arrives to the hall to hear the results, he finds out that his name was put forward for the Triwizard Cup. The chapter opens up with Iron Emmett from the Not A Cast podcast. He's strong. He's long. He's strong. He's long.

He's the East Watch's Jon. These are great, Chloe. I thought it was a strong opening for you. I think it is. Jon lets Iron Emmett beat the shit out of him in training sessions and the other guys suck so therefore Jon never improves against them. I thought that was really a

nice beat that like now that someone strong is here to train with Iron Emmett and he's like, alright I can train with him. But it also makes me think there's kind of a couple things at play in this line that George is building on. When John becomes Lord Commander, he kind of has more duties to complete and he takes over and trains here and there, but he doesn't train anymore as Lord Commander. And he has to send all of his equals and his friends away right and he also stops training after that and he's almost stagnating so i think something about that power structure that you know once you have little crows to protect little burbs you don't get to just

train every day um and the only fight he actually does have is with brattle shirt when mance is secretly being him so it reminds me kind of a couple things. The bastards are not allowed to damage young prince's line comes to mind here. And also that his equal at Castle Black, the only equal he has left there to fight against is Mance. Yeah. I mean

I think part of it is Jon doesn't really have the energy to fight other people because he's too busy fighting every battle in his mind. Put every battle in his mind put every battle in your mind shanja okay but there i i agree i think that's interesting especially like you said with him going against his equal mans who he doesn't realize his mans he's like what the fuck did rattleshore get so good but there's also i think a mix of john being really busy right now like he's just gotta do other things he doesn't have time to train the recruits it's not his job anymore he has to go like do budgeting find

supplies for the winter manage running everything he's gotta instead of training the new recruits manage the training of the recruits figuring out how are we going to actually get new recruits to fucking train later on. Which in that right there is part of late stage capitalism, right? Because the actual boss can't continue himself and further himself because he's too busy doing all those things, but they don't have enough men. It's a skeleton crew because they can barely pay the people to keep the place afloat. So, anyways. Tell us how you really feel, Chloe.

Tell us. You want to sit down? No, I am sitting down, and I do not want to. Thank you. So, Emmett is beating him down hard, and John can't keep up. He staggers, and everything goes blurry, and all of a sudden, the only thing he can think of is a memory. It's one that we've talked about a lot, I think, this book,

because we've just been leading up to it. And then the years were gone, and he was back at Winterfell once more, wearing a quilted leather coat in place of mail and plate. His sword was made of wood, and it was Rob who stood facing him, not Iron Emmett. Every morning they trained together since they were big enough to walk. Snow and Stark spinning and slashing about the wards of Winterfell, shouting and laughing, sometimes crying when there was no one else to see. They were not little boys when they fought, but knights and mighty heroes. I'm Prince Aemon the Dragon Knight, Jon would call out, and Rob would shout back. Well, I'm Florian the Fool! Or Rob would say, I'm the Young Dragon!

And John would reply, I'm Sir Ryan Redway! That morning, he called it first. I'm Lord of Winterfell! He cried as he had a hundred times before. Only this time, Rob had answered, You can't be Lord of Winterfell. You're a bastard, Lauren. My lady mother says you can't ever be the

lord of winterfell i thought i had forgotten that john could taste blood in his mouth from the blow he had taken oh boy so much that's a passage to unpack tried to do a small, a child Rob. I don't want anyone to think I think poorly of Rob. I love Rob. I just wanted to channel eight-year-old Rob. No, I mean, that's a great degree. I can't change who I am, so I was just John the whole way through, you know. I mean, maybe John had, like, a lower voice than Rob. I guess, like, what would my, like, young John even be?

I don't know. I'm Lord of Winterfell. I can't do it. I don't know. I'm Lord of Winterfell. I'm Lord of I can't do it. I'm Sir Ryan Redwine. I tried. No, I think that's actually hilarious and adorable.

Thank you. I thought it'd be interesting to unpack the characters that they explained they wanted to be before we even got into the emotional weight of this passage. Let's keep it fresh and just, you know, the characters that they explained they wanted to be before we even got into the emotional weight of this passage let's keep it fresh and just you know stories are good so let's talk about some of these characters rob calls out the young dragon uh darion targaryen and florian the fool and i thought the young dragon is probably the strongest of these kind of stories paralleling a little bit

um he was the eldest son of agon III. He was the first to conquer Dorne. He brought 14 hostages back as collateral from Dorne. His cousin, Prince Aemon, the Dragon Knight, prevented his assassination by throwing himself in front of a poisoned arrow that was being flung at him.

While the nobility in Dorne knelt down to Daeron and said, yeah, sure, whatever, the Dornish small folk rose up against Daeron, and he ended up slain along with three Kingsguard who were riding under a peace banner to Dorne. Baelor succeeded him, and he tried kind of a different approach with Dorne. We'll talk about that in a minute. But there is that rough parallel that Robb came under a peace banner and was slain, and I think that's interesting that George put that in there.

I didn't think about all that. I'm glad you're here. No problem. I'm too deep, too deep. You are, you are. So yeah, these are great. The flurry and the fool is weird though, too. The flurry and the fool is like a really unsketched out one that I,

I don't know if it's kind of referring to Jane as like a knight falls in love with a maiden kind of thing a fool knight like Rob's a fool he fell in love with Jane I don't know yeah maybe I don't know I just think it's funny that Rob picks the young dragon man John's the young dragon the young dragon yeah yeah I do think that was funny I do I was thinking that too but it's interesting that he chose the cousin parallel, right? Because he chose Aemon the Dragon Knight. And Aemon's story is obviously ridiculously rich. Like we hear about it in all the stories of Aemon and Nary's sin.

Aemon the Dragon Knight. It's just such a, that's a story name right there, you know? And there's obviously the Jon and Aemon connection. And of course course a lot of people i know joe magician who's been on with us before you think about that there's the theory that john's real name really is amen so that could be an interesting bit but amen the dragon knight was the second son of viserys the second and lara rajar and he joined the king's guard at 17 and defended four kings after aegon the third his helm helmet crest was a white gold dragon on his Kingsguard little outfit.

And the stories and songs say that Aemon and Nereus loved each other. And then she cried during her bedding to Agen the fourth and that he had harsh words with Agen and all this happening craziness, whatever, just drama. There's sibling drama, you know, sibling lover drama, sibling lover cousin, its own special kind of drama. It's Hargarian drama, you know. Sibling lover drama. Sibling lover cousin. It's its own special kind of drama. Targaryen drama is so rich. So they should really do like some Days of Our Lifestyle show about it or Passions.

Only Targaryens. We need a reality TV show. And this is what's interesting. People, you know, a lot of people bitch about George saying he's going to have, he's excited to do Aegon IV stuff in Fire and Blood 2. But it's like there's so much you could talk about surrounding Aegon IV and Daeron and different characters and Aemon. Aemon gets captured in Dorne

and put naked in a crow cage above a pit of vipers by Wyl of Wyl, and Baelor shows up to deal with it all. They give him the key to the cage that Aemon is in, and he walks in to save Aemon, and so all the singers say his piety protected him from being bit and he frees Eamon uh but we learn in the Sansa chapter from Ellaria I believe it is that the Dornishmen claim he was bitten actually half a hundred times

and whatever the case Eamon carries a comatose baler out of Dorne so we know the answer and he's treated in Blackhaven and later awakened. And later on, Aemon is a mystery knight and attorney. He names Nereus the Queen of Love and Beauty, which did piss Aegon IV off. But later, Aemon dies honorably defending Aegon IV and Baelor from Terence Toyne's two brothers who were seeking revenge for his execution. So super rough parallel, I guess guess is that sister connection because amon

tested that line about nares who obviously was supposed to be with agan the fourth and he didn't agree with everything happening there especially probably because of the whole like agan the fourth is a dick thing who had oh nine mistresses or so but that super rough parallel comes with john of saving his sisters and trying to defend his family, even with those mixed up feelings. There's also, again, coming back to his family, because there's a parallel then with Aemon the Dragon Knight and Jon's mother, not his father, which is also kind of interesting as coming in as like a mystery knight in eternity. Yes, absolutely. With Lyanna and Aemon. That's an interesting absolutely. With Liana and Eamon. That's an interesting one.

I didn't actually think about that. Good going. Now you're the laughing tree. What is it? Rule 63? Yes, rule 63. Wait, no, no. For the gender swap?

Or is it 34? No, that's the one that there's porn of everything. I mean, am I wrong? I mean, that's why it's a rule, right? So the other person that John mentions doesn't really hold well i mean because this person i think kind of is a stupid part of history like i don't understand why he's so romanticized but ryan redwine he was a lord commander under jaharis one

he was also a hand of the king to jaharis for less than a year his brother's names are robert and rickard which is what i found really interesting. He was the Kingsguard member that found that Lucamore the Lusty wasn't staying celibate, and he told on him, so Lucamore was gelded. He broke 30 lances against Crabbe in Jaehaerys' 50th birthday extravaganza in King's Landing, and it was proclaimed the greatest jousting event to ever have happened. That's hilarious. But he was the worst hand of the king. In Fire and Blood, Alar says about him, some problems can't be solved by hitting them with a stick. to ever have happened that's hilarious but he was the worst hand of the king in fire and blood

allar says about him some problems can't be solved by hitting them with a stick so he kind of sucked but a lot of the names fit in there with the whole uh jaharis uh being his lord commander and then of course robert and ricard are ryan's brothers and uh the gelding thing i guess kind of gives me some hints of the night's watch but i don't know i thought guess, kind of gives me some hints of the Night's Watch. But I don't know. I thought that was kind of interesting. The Rickard and Robert, especially. Yeah. Or I don't know.

I guess they were just like, let's just try being random ass people. And John's like, I don't know. I'll pick this guy. He's famous. Well, it's everyone in the songs. But it's like the songs about Ryan Redwine could not have been that great. Like, and also if you like, I mean, those songs sound like they also if i know like i mean those songs sound like they suck i wouldn't listen to those songs i don't know i mean it kind of sounds like he was he was

good at sports right yeah just not good at all the other parts and as we know and we've discussed this at the beginning of john's storyline especially john really prizes what he sees as like good fighters etc and only later on comes to realize wait maybe yes maybe some problems cannot be solved by hitting them with a stick and like I don't know he was just maybe Ryan Redwine was kind of a dumb jock and that's okay

it's okay to be that and he John was like I don't know a child and he's like oh he was like a cool sports hero yeah that he was like a cool sports hero. Yeah, that works. He's a cool sports hero that in the end our heroes are all dead or employed by the villains. I guess. Yeah, there's that.

Or, well, I mean, Ryan Redline didn't go on to start a foundation is all I'm saying. Or a charity. He didn't. He could. I mean, maybe he would have been better if he picked someone else to do all the things. But instead someone put him in charge. Yeah, what we really need to look at is the system and how it's broken. Jahari's the first.

Oh my god. The bigger thing happening in this passage, of course, that we were skirting because we wanted to talk about stories for a hot second, was Jon has basically said he's contented and fine and that Catelyn made him feel like this, but we see, as we've talked about, it wasn't just Catelyn. It was the structure of the society and the family and, you know, how bastards are looked at by that culture. And Jon, in his bitter realization that this has haunted him, right?

This has hurt him his entire life. And it's finally, finally really hit him. Of course he wants Winterfell. Of course he wants the one thing he's always been denied he wants to belong he wants respect and he wants them to see what he can and has done already and it brings me back to when sam tried to slap some sense in him in game of thrones and its completion that comes in this chapter right he says to john when i was little my father used to insist that i attend him in the audience chamber whenever he held court. When he rode to Highgarden to bend his knee to Lord Tyrell, he made me come.

Later, though, he started to take Dickon and leave me at home, and he no longer cared about whether I sat through his audiences so long as Dickon was there. He wanted his ear at his side, don't you see? To watch and listen and learn from all he did. I'll wager that's why Lord Mormont requested you, Jon. What else could it be? He wants to groom you for command. Jon was taken aback. It was true. Lord Eddard had often made Rob part of his councils back at Winterfell. Could Sam be right? Even a bastard could rise high in the Night's Watch, they said. said i never asked for this he said stubbornly

oh my god that's from john six uh so it brings back a lot of those themes right of rob and him in winterfell playing in the yard and rob was always in these councils john never got to be in these councils and we're looking at this crossroads that john has the easy way the road more traveled in front of him by being Lord of Winterfell, right? And in his mind, it is something of a good thing. He could protect Winterfell. He could take it back. But it brings me right back to that memory of him thinking like, oh, when Rob sees me, he'll be so proud of me for, you know, abandoning my vows to come help him.

He's very conflicted between what these people would think was brave and not brave and not being able to belong in this family and being rejected from it even by rob rob may have been his brother and treated him brotherly but he sees like he could never have been one of them it was never going to work and i think what's especially hurtful about that is i think a lot of children right they grow up if they grew up in a family or with one of their parents at least being supportive and a good role model

to them etc. They grow up idolizing that parent for a little bit and especially when you're really young thinking of like oh I want to be like dad when I grow up I guess is what John is thinking here right? And suddenly he's got this wall that's placed between him and his dad and therefore the rest of his family by being told

hey actually no you can't fit into this system you can't inherit and fill dad's shoes at all as much as you might want to so there's like kind of this freudian thing here going on also because at the same time you see him wanting to sort of live out that fantasy later on especially as he thinks later on you know oh i could have kids with val i guess as the lord of winterfell and we'll name one of them rob and wants to then fulfill that same familial fantasy as acting out as as ned but i think something else i'm glad that you like pulled out this quote because in that desire for winterfell and a home that's always been denied him you see then another parallel between his story and denarius's story as she longs to return

to westeros longs to have the iron throne back and Dragonstone because for her, this is supposed to be home. And then you have that unseen choice because in the background of everything that we're reading right now, Sam is running around conniving and politically being like, you should vote for Jon, you should vote for Jon, you should vote for Jon. And we're going to talk about this at the end, but he's taking

what Stannis wanted because Stannis can't have the North without Jon. Later, as we know, Stannis wanted, because Stannis can't have the North without Jon. Later, as we know, Stannis tries to take the North, and the North Lords don't give a crap. There's like three that care. You know, they just don't. They've already seen too much of this horror,

and that's a bigger thing that Northern Independence is really about. Like, they didn't want to bend to Stannis either, dude. Like, it's not just bending to the Lannisters, or bending to Daenerys, or bending to this. They didn't want to bend to Stannis. They've not just bending to the Lannisters or bending to Daenerys or bending to this. They didn't want to bend to Stannis. They've already been bending to all these people. They want to get rid of the vermin, obviously, but after that, they don't want to be ruled by these people that don't get them. So it's interesting, kind of where this leads and what it takes away. Stannis' campaign suffers. Jon doesn't even know that he is up for the ballot at this point. He's like,

I'll never I'm a I'm a fucking turncoat. I'm not going to end up as the Lord Commander at this point. It's just like in the office, which I know you still haven't seen this, but Dwight does some shit. And he's like, I'm not going to be the manager. They'll never give me the manager job. I effed it up. And then later he ends up the manager at the very end. So it's like, it's really good. Same exact little play happening here here john doesn't know what's going on he doesn't even know this choice is being made for him yeah and i mean he didn't f everything up everyone else except for like alice or thorn and jano slint know that and they kind of know they just don't want to acknowledge it they're like well castle black we literally wouldn't be here and able to meet here if it weren't for john holding

it right and warning everyone halder and horse drag john off of emmet emmet's not looking good it looks pretty bad his helm's knocked off his shield's broken all of it john kind of comes back to earth and everyone's yelling at him they're like you disarmed him enough and he thinks no not enough never enough john let his sword drop he asks emmet if he's hurt and emmet's like no shit i told you to yield dude what don't you get yeah it's kind of a strangely written scene not necessarily bad but it is really jarring for both the reader and john to come back and find out that oh during the time of this flashback where we ended with John on the ground suddenly he's on top now and is like wailing on Iron Emmet poor guy he's just

like what the fuck is going on here but I think that in this scene you can see George's television writing background come through because I think you can just imagine like that cut to the background then all of a sudden you cut back to the camera and like John's just wailing and you're like uh

it does it takes you out of place and you can actually feel like the blood in your ears if that makes sense and like your head rings a little ring like i feel like i can be where john is and feel that like that's what john's feeling blurry a little bit outside of what's going on it reminds me of ned's ptsd watching of aria as she fights with sirio and the show a little bit that whole like zoning out disassociative behavior john just he was out yeah yeah i mean i've told i've been told that you know people sometimes channel the anger into when they're working out yes yes i've been told this warrior defend me he groaned now i know how corn half hand must have felt that was too much john wrenched free of his friends and retreated to the armory alone his ears were still ringing from the

blow emmet had dealt him he sat on the bench and buried his head in his hands why am i so angry he asked himself but it was a stupid question this line from iron emmet it's kind of a low blow in a way but he's also not like wrong i mean like i understand like i was just like dude what the fuck corinne halfhand was actually like able to go john into killing him slash make it believable to the wildlings by egging john on by talking about his bastardy and i think iron emmet he doesn't know but he's done the same thing by conjuring those memories for john john just went all out it let him get lost in that moment yeah john knows the answer to the question of why he's angry because he can't put out of his mind being

the lord of winterfell and then there's this line that all he can see is Catelyn's face, blue eyes staring at him, and a cold mouth. He thinks she almost looks like Stannis. What? No one talks about this line. Ever. I know. I thought that was really interesting. I don't know. Of course there is a second part that makes it less silly, because now I'm of course just imagining Stannis in a Catelyn Stark outfit or vice versa. Oh, I thought you were going to say a Stannis and Catelyn ship, which I think that also works.

Catelyn's very easy to ship with people. Yeah. That's maybe only me. She's a top mommy, you know, for sure. She was looking at him the way she used to look at him at Winterfell, whenever he had bested Rob at swords or sums or most anything. Who are you? That look always seemed to say, this is not your most anything who are you that look always seem to say this is not

your place why are you here while you were reading that i just remembered another crazy catlin ship i never came up with this sure i think we've discussed it before but way way way back in the day i think like after the first book came out someone somewhere on the internet theorized that caitlin and john yes you've told me we're gonna hook up and i'm just i'm just like what what is this anyway talk about oedipal regarding this line though i agree with what you're saying it's not brought up more that comparison between stannis and caitlin and it's kind of interesting when you think about how donald noy was all, Stannis will break before he bends. And I kind of like wonder, did Catelyn break before she bent? Because we see the Red Wedding through her interiority

and that sorrow that she's feeling like as all her pretty ones are taken from her and killed. And then she like rakes her fingers down her face. And I think that's the moment, right? Where she breaks because when she comes back, like it's really something considering that this exact chapter is only one to two chapters, depending on how you're counting them, right before the reveal of Lady Stoneheart. And we do learn she was just supposed to be taken as a hostage. She wasn't supposed to die. But of course, she went out like a badass. Minus like the civilian, you know, kill, but yeah, she, she broke, she killed she killed jingle bell even though she cadlin does

does a lot of things throughout her storyline one day we'll talk about it yeah oh my god i can't wait um wow that was a really great point i didn't even think about that we should do a podcast oh i guess so on what so john john is avoiding his friends they're all in the training yard and he goes to take a bath and the bath reminds him of the pools in the godswood he thinks about how he could restore winterfell from his wreckage and that his dad and rob would have wanted that you can't be the lord of winterfell you're bastard born he heard rob say again and the stone kings were growling at him with granite tongues. You do not belong here. This is not your place. When John closed his eyes, he saw the heart tree with its pale limbs, red leaves, and solemn face. The weirwood was the heart of Winterfell, Lord Eddard always said, but to save the castle, John would have to tear that heart up by its

ancient roots and feed it to the Red Woman's hungry fire god. I have no right, he thought. Winterfell belongs to the old gods. So this is a little bit about what we were talking about last week together with Skad about how John eventually makes his decision because of his father's gods. of his father's gods and knowing that he'd have to destroy that legacy and memory the essence of the north in a way is definitely i think one of those questions about the cost of like is what you want worth that price that's examined throughout a song of ice and fire this is one way it's done through john's storyline like is the price of winterfell worth burning up his father's gods and this is the direct conflict that he's facing in these chapters

which is again what makes it so funny when it's all undercut at the end and it's like well your choice is made for you bitch you know uh i think of winterfell and pretty much most of the north like i think of the wall uh it it's made of old magic and i feel like it defends itself and i think that's what most of the North is. So even if John burnt down the Weirwood, would they accept him? It would curse his reign, just like Harrenhal,

for example, and anyone's reign there after him. So did Stannis curse his own reign when he burnt down the Godswood in Storm's End? Oh, I think that's an interesting idea, especially because what it does have its roots in the First Men.

I think that's really interesting. But yeah, I think not only is it the magic, but as you said, Winterfell defends itself and spoilers, spoilers, winds of winter. That's why you have Stannis grilling Theon later on. Yeah, trying to understand

it all. Yeah, being like, so how'd you fucking take Winterfell? And he's like, I mean, I fucking live there. They like just- Yeah. I know how to get in there. Yeah. But Jon is brought back again by the echoing of men's voices. It's Alistair Thorne and Bowen Marsh talking about how

status drools tie in rules to Othell Yarwick, and that Slynt should clearly be the Lord Commander. John sits up, and the men all freeze, realizing, oh, someone else is here, and he addresses them. My lords, he said with cold courtesy. What are you doing here, bastard? Thorne asked. Bathing, but don't let me spoil your plotting john climbed from the water dried dressed and left them to conspire i love that that is the most savage shit then he just comes out and he's like here's my dong take that everyone

is that it don't let me spoil your plotting here's my 16 year old dong god damn it just wanted to make you feel weird now it's weird now it's weird i was just like i feel like sometimes when people just emerge naked from things that it can be its own power move but now you've made it weird and if it weren't for the fact that john addressed them it almost reminded me of aria listening to alirio and very's plotting but yeah regardless there is some great irony in this discussion that they're having. Because, I mean, the timeline, as we know, the chapters, it's all like a little murky and ambiguous. And this might be a bit before Tyrion's last chapter or simultaneous. It could very well be after and news hasn't gotten to them, right?

But the Night's Watch are thinking about how, oh, yeah, Tywin's totally going to be victorious. simultaneous it could very well be after and like news hasn't gotten to them right but the knights watch are thinking about how oh yeah tywin's totally gonna be victorious you're gonna throw in with him and they're kind of lucky in a way that sam conspires i mean that's not like great to say because we as readers know by this point that throwing in with taiwan is losing bet why because he's dead oh there's something so great about how fleeting that power is right uh power lies where men believe it lies totally applies here and janos's power is gonna lie beneath the dirt with the worms and then his ashes will do do they burn him i mean i'd guess they would after they probably should yeah i mean based on everything that they know yeah i forgot

that's what i'm guessing i'm thinking i actually originally when i said that in my head i was thinking like and then giannos will too and i'm like no they're gonna burn his ass like the cold ones are coming that's not a guy that you want to deal with twice like fuck no he's so annoying dealing with him once is bad enough. So Jon heads outside. He is walking past towers that hold memories for him. The Lord Commander's tower where he saved Jeor, the spot where Ygritte died, the King's tower where they battled the Magnar and his Thens,

remains of the wooden stair, down the tunnel where Donnel and Mag died, and out the tower gate into the cold sunlight. I do, I really love this passage. He couldn couldn't sleep so he's just walking the wall and he walks through all these memories yeah it's really well written and it's such a great delivery to make it interesting as john just crosses from one point of the castle to the other because a lot of the action in this chapter sure you've you've got the actual choosing, but the central action and conflict within the chapter is John's decision.

And he's being torn between two homes, one version of his past versus his more recent past events. And so reliving all of these memories shows how much John has experienced here in Castle Black and how much he's lost, especially since book one. And a lot of these memories, though, aren't happy, even the one about J.R. Mormont, because a lot of them are about, oh, all these people died, lost all these people. So it kind of makes it easier for him to be like, what if I just left this place behind? And this place has really been where he's become the character we're reading, right? What's great about doing this by the books is that when

we start dance we're seeing a young man not this young teenage boy who's seething in the back of the room drunk for the first time in many ways this chapter has a lot of that boy still in it you feel the heat of the moment you feel the emotion while his conversation turning cloak to mance kind of felt hollow about his family life You see the true hurt that he does hurt about it brought out in this fight with Iron Emmett and that pain from the feast. But as we get into dance, the conflicted man child who wants to save his family and lead turns into a man, right?

Who wants to protect those he loves and learns that he has to send them away in doing so. And it's, it's just such an interesting transition and to see him become this man it's it's really shows a lot in that passage him thinking about everywhere he has been yeah i don't know if he had to send them away clearly john wasn't privy to the lectures on the lone wolf dies but the pack survives as aria was and she was like this is my new pack when she's out there in the riverlands

and then she's like guess not rip anyway Jon thinks that Othell Jorvik isn't really a man of very strong convictions and could therefore be swayed by Martian Thorne to hashtag vote Janos Jon thinks that Winterfell actually now might be my only option. He thinks of these schmucks. He glances at the wildling quote-unquote camp of captives 100 yards away. There are three great fire pits where the dead are being burnt post-battle. To his left, all the burned bodies in the box to the left. Oh my god. That was not okay to say. No, Beyonce, sit down.

Does that make me Nikki? I think so. You could be, unless you want to be Jay-Z. I mean, baby, I'll always be your Jay-Z, besides the cheating and the... Anyways. So, there are scorched weeds and hard ground everywhere, and bits of Mance's people remain, though,

right? Like torn hides and mammoth dung and broken spears. John is sitting on the edge of the haunted forest and he's thinking about his life and his choices. Ygritte had wanted him to be a wildling, Stannis, the lord of Winterfell, but Jon doesn't even know what he wants.

He's 16! How could he? Of course. He puts it into simple terms. Should I get murdered by my brothers or should I forswear my vows and marry Val? Bad news all that by the way these are all like weird choices the funny part is he straight up thinks like should i should i get murdered by my brothers and stay here and the irony is he gets given the lord commander position that he gets murdered by his brothers so defense of the dark arts position i I mean, he had it. If he would have just listened to himself.

But, I mean, it would have been weird. No, it would have been bad either way. He just went and took... None of them are good choices. One of them does sound a lot better, though. Yeah. Because, you know, Val's pretty, and Vance Raider's queen's... Dead queen's sister.

And then he thinks about Ygritte, and he's like, Actually, that would have made my choice a lot easier but I mean that is a choice you know I don't know if it meant either marrying Ygritte to take Winterfell or if it meant running away with Ygritte to go be

either way he was like if Ygritte was here I'd just do whatever the fuck she's doing yeah I wouldn't make any choices he uh he thinks about how Val's pretty and how she's Mance Rayder's queen sister, technically. And he thinks about Ygritte and how Ygritte would have just been an easier choice, which I thought that was interesting.

He's never really let himself think about having a child, but he thinks that if he stole Val, maybe he could. He could name him Rob if they had a kid and they could foster Dalaallas son and gilly's son at winterfell and grow up brothers and sam wouldn't have to tell his lie he'd find a place for them all and that's the saddest this this passage that we're about to read is like it just hurts but this is like literally right yeah this is literally what ned did yes had a son named rob took in some other

kid and was like no one needs to know no one needs to know where this kid's really from it's fine yeah sam would never need to tell his lie either he'd find a place for them all oh sam told his lies anyway absolutely chapter okay so he this passage is so good i will do it for you because it's john so yeah you have to he wanted it john knew then he wanted it as much as he had ever wanted anything i've always wanted it he thought guiltily may the gods forgive me It was a hunger inside him, sharp as a dragonglass blade. A hunger. He could feel it. It was food he needed.

Prey, a red deer that stank of fear, or a great elk, proud and defiant. He needed to kill and fill his belly with fresh meat and hot, dark blood. His mouth began to water with the thought. Whoa, John just slipped a little there into ghost, eh? Yeah. That's a fast slip. If you don't, like, if you blink, you might miss it. Yeah, I think

it's really fun to see how to reread. I'm just, like, imagining John's, because it's so weird, right? Like, you're like, wow, this went from 0 to 100 real quick, John. And you're like, ah, dears? But, but i don't know it's just funny to imagine john just suddenly like close up on his face and him just like maybe his r's maybe his

eyes starting like left and right being like this is a weird feeling why am i feeling like this and if you take the whole context of the best part of this that we're about to talk about which is ghost uh if you take the ghost context out, this is almost straight up like some Kill the Boy crazy language, right? This is like the onset of Kill the Boy and Let the Man Be Born. He feels a hunger inside him, a

dragonglass blade. Which also, I love that it was dragonglass. That was interesting. But it isn't. The hunger is, as you and I know our best boy ghost yes ghost come here boy come here it's a good boy it's ghost oh and ghost comes running to john they meet they hug everything is great the story ends this is our happy ending john not making a decision

john tells him i thought that you died on him like everyone else okay you literally told him to go like fuck off john red eyes john realized but not like melisandre's he had a weirwood's eyes red eyes red mouth white fur blood and bone like a heart tree he belongs to the old gods this one and he alone of all the direwolves were white six pups they'd found in the late summer snows him and rob five that were gray and black and brown for the five starks and one white as white as snow he had his answer then uh two things i want to discuss here one i'm just realizing i'm probably reading too much into this but in terms of the hunger that ghost is feeling we see a red deer or a great elk proud and defiant is that language a little bit

baratheon-esque yeah i mean he's a red deer now i could see that fiery stag i don't know reading too much into it but also i mean coming back to astute like observations in the fandom about coincidences in terms of coloring of the weirwoods and ghosts people talk about how it matches melisandre's a lot, right? Like with all that red and white. But I think it overlooks this passage a little because in this moment, Jon explicitly says they're red eyes, but they're not like Melisandre's red eyes. So there are different shades to all of those different colors. Again, not all that glitters. It's a little like that all that glitters is not gold, but it's here. It's just like all things that are red aren't

necessarily aligned. And yeah, there are those shades and subtle nuances, and I think it shows that they have different wants, Melisandre and Jon, and that the Red God might be

pretending to be on Jon's side, or Melisandre is but like if it means uprooting literally the family tree is it worth it he's thinking of this as a sign this was a sign from the old gods right ghost came back ghost was a gift from the old gods and ghost came back in this moment when john was most conflicted and like i guess i gotta burn down the family tree uh ghost comes comes back. It's a literal sign from God, from the old gods. Oh, you're right. It is a sign from God.

That exact moment, this is what changes him. He's like, I can't do that. What the fuck was I thinking? I'm gonna be grounded. The sign, he's on a mission from the old gods, and instead of being the Blues Brothers, he's part of the Black Brothers. There you go. As John reaches beneath the wall the queen's men have started their prayer at their night fires with the emerging mel and all the king's men in the yard stare at john and his dire wolf they're not

obviously used to seeing one he sees val up at her tower window and he sadly thinks i'm not the one to steal you from there which i thought thought was interesting that, of course, you have your good imagery of she's the princess in the tower in this situation. And George always has all these different variations, right? Like Sansa, a prisoner of war in her tower trying to operate from the godswood, from the gods. Arienne, imprisoned for scheming to crown Myrcella and taking vengeance for her family on her own terms. Alanis Harlaw, even, in her tower after the rebellion and losing everything. Azshara choosing her quote-unquote destiny, not in the neck, but from her tower. And Lyanna is probably the most classic one, right?

The birthing of the savior story. And Helena Targaryen's suicide and Jaehaera's even. Just so many different iterations of the princess and the tower scattered through the book but all of them are changed a lot from what you'd usually see with the arthurian kind of trope yeah i think that's a really great observation about val i didn't even think about that she would be like i'm not a princess. You are in a way, honey. Surprise. Just like for Jon. As Jon enters the hall, it's kind of a circus in there.

Janos is yelling about turd cloaks. Emmett has a sword in his hand and he's standing on a table. Three-finger death hob, I mean, death punch, I mean, three-finger hob, is cursing a ranger from the Shadow Tower. And an East watch man is demanding quiet he's pounding on the table pip notices john first and he grins a ghost's return he whistles and that quiets the room john asks okay what's up alicer's like the turn cloak graces us with his presence at last and janos decides to go the extra mile and be ridiculous. When is he not?

Lord Janos was red face and covering. The beast! He gasped. Look! The beast that tore the life from half-hand! A warg walks among us, brothers! A warg! This creature is not fit to lead us! This beastling is not fit to live!

God, Ghost is like ready to fight. John is keeping it together. He's keeping him calm. He's like, pat, pat, pat, floof, floof. What's happening? And Eamon's like, ah, your name was put forward for Lord Commander. And John's like, who would do this? Looking out at all of his friends.

I love that he just smiles and he laughs. He's like, good prank, brah. Put it on the vine. You got me. You got my reaction. It's like the why would so-and-so kill so-and-so meme. But I just do like, he's like, that's hilarious. Yeah, that's how it would do that.

And Dolores Ed is like, because John's like, seriously, who would do this to me? And Dolores Ed was like, oh, sorry, dick move, but better you than me, man. It was me. So Janos is super outraged. He's like, this is awful. I want to speak to your manager, which is like, it's John. But Janos says, I won't suffer it. And that John should be hanged to turn cloak to die.

And Cotterpike is like, I don't know. And he tells it like it is. And Dennis Malister even joins in as well yeah I like that Cotterpike and Dennis Malister are like fuck that shit Jano Slit everyone thinks he's super annoying no one literally no one likes him except for Alistair and of course a bunch of them had originally kind of intended to align until they saw what was actually happening because Cause Cotter Pike is like, you won't suffer.

It might be, you had those gold cloaks trained to lick your bloody arse. You're wearing a black cloak now. And Dennis Malister is like, any brother may offer any name for our considerations. So long as the man has said his vows, Talat is well within his rights, my Lord.

And finally, Alistair Thorne is like, look, no matter what happens, the king has guards posted out there we have to choose i'm getting hungry and othell yarwick even drops out he's like originally i was going to give my votes to janos but john's probably the better choice and he says he's been longer on the wall he's ben stark's nephew he served the old bear's squire

and janos is like changing colors like his skin is just, like, it was red, it's purple, and Alistair is blank white. Because everyone shouts for the kettle, where the votes were being put in. And more men are, like, banging on the table. Kettle! Kettle! Kettle! Kettle! Yeah, where's Matt? We need Matt to laugh. Oh, man. Yeah. And, like, it feels like some Willy Wonkaka shit i don't know why when like they talk

about janice turning from red to purple i think of what's her fucking name that girl that girl violet you're turning violet yeah and i mean it probably helps that stannis gave his speech like ripping into janice like last chapter and so now everyone's like oh does sound like he sucks with a raucous scream and a clap of wings a huge raven burst out of the kettle it flapped upwards seeking the rafters perhaps or a window to make its escape but there were no rafters in the vault nor windows either the raven was trapped cawing loudly it circled the hall once, twice, three times. And John heard Samuel Tarly shout,

I know that bird! That's Lord Mormont's raven! The raven landed on the table nearest John. Snow! Snow! it cawed. It was an old bird, dirty and bedraggled. Snow! it said again. Snow! Snow! Snow! It walked to the end of the table spread its wings again and flew to john's shoulder thank you that was great you're welcome that was good for me oh

fuck i watched a video someone posted it in the history of west rose podcast facebook group recently apparently some ravens really do you can teach them like some human words like parrots but the they can imitate voices. It sounded so funny. And I thought about doing that for here, but no one was going to get it. Like when they were saying, making the raven say hello,

it sounded like a low pitched man's voice going, hello. I was like, oh no, I don't want that. And she kept trying to get later on the raven to say hello again. And it kept going, hi.

It would say like, hi hi and it's not like the way it's not a calling sound it's just like a weird hilarious voice birds are weird man birds are weird they really they really are and this book like just highlights it because now we've got like all these birds like bursting out of kitchen shit like like at joffrey's wedding with the pie oh look the pie oh my god interesting because the next book is a feast for crows this is why you don't feed the birds next thing you know they're all like crowding around you With the pie. Oh, look, the pie. Oh my god, interesting, because the next book is a feast for crows. Mmm. Mmm.

This is why you don't feed the birds. Next thing you know, they're all, like, crowding around you. They're not gonna leave you alone. Seagulls are vicious. Yeah, they are. They are. Wrath to the sky. You know, I've been thinking, speaking of birds, when John was a crow in the ice cells, do you think he was like,

I'm coming out of my cage, but I've been doing just fine. God, I gotta be there, because I want it all. sells do you think he was like i'm coming out of my cage but i've been doing just fine god i gotta be down because i want it all uh and it did start out with a kiss it was only a kiss and then sex the best part is i did like as i thought that i was singing it in my brain and i kept going like john like open up my eager eyes because i'm azura high i don't know something oh i like that yeah right janos is like nice job you taught a pet a trick this isn't real it's just war trickery and the raven like looks around and is like snow and no one responds to it so it's like kettle kettle kettle again and then maybe everyone else is like kettle kettle kettle the bird the rest was arrowheads

a torrent of arrowheads a flood of arrowheads arrowheads enough to drown the last few stones and shells and all the copper pennies too everybody chose him yay he's class president kind of reminds me of the Renly thing

oh my god class president oh god everyone you need to watch High School of Thrones. High School of Thrones is so good. Everyone congratulates Jon on his win. Iron Emmett is like, well, hope I'm still allowed to beat the shit out of you in the yard. And even Bowen Marsh is like, well, be true and I'll support you, I guess, Lord Commander. Cotter Pike is like, do a good job or I'm going to pull your entrails out of your body.

But Dennis Malister wants to speak to john sir dennis mallister was more courteous it was a hard thing young samuel asked of me the old knight confessed when lord corgyle was chosen i told myself no matter he has been longer on the wall than you have your time will come when it was lord mormon i thought he was strong and fierce but he's old your time may yet come. But you are half a boy, Lord Snow, and now I must return to the Shadow Tower, knowing that my time will never come.

He smiled a tired smile. Do not make me die regretful. Your uncle was a great man, your lord father, and his father as well. I shall expect full as much of you. Aye, said Cotterpike, and you could start by telling those kingsmen that it's done and we want our bloody supper. Supper!

Screamed the raven. Supper! Supper! Man, even in the Lord Commander choosing, Ned's memory is prominent. I thought that was great. And I love the speech. I just, it's very sad. Yeah.

That line just, you know, you're half a boy, Lord Snow, and now I must return, knowing my time will never come. Honestly, it really could come. You know, like, now Jon's dead. Yeah, it's your time to shine. It's probably going to make Dennis Malister regretful that all that happened. But he could be. He really honestly could be the 999th. Yeah, he could still.

I know people are always putting forward different options, but it could be him. Anyway. Like you said, it is kind of sad. It's an adorable moment, I think, a little bit, between Cotter and Dennis, them being in agreement. I find those things cute. But, like, yeah, Dennis makes me

feel feelings, because, like, he's sad that it doesn't pass him. He has actually really given a lot and devoted himself to the night's watch he's a respected person and has done well right but at the same time he's doing what is right for the watch he's doing his duty and he's like i guess it's john snow right that's what it is it's not my time and so we end up seeing a little bit of that meritocratic aspect to the watch like that it's supposed to embody you know if you ignore the part where sam was conspiring

and lying to people in the speech from dennis and it kind of becomes a fresh air like in the midst of like the cynical portrayal that we've seen of the night's watch seeming very much not like a meritocracy in the past few chapters or even at the beginning of the novels with with um way more royce yeah and i don't know random thought cotter pike and these bloody suppers another reminder right of hey the red budding happened in this book guys thumbs up context for all of this but it also reminds me of another supper this is definitely a stretch reading too much into it but it's not foreshadowing it's interesting to think about then a last supper a different you know thing in the context of like john's very monomyth like story with the betrayal and

the resurrection that he's going to undergo later on that is pretty much what this is right someone will betray him after this a A bunch of them. Yeah. So many. Well, before we get too depressed, so many. So many stabs. Before we get too sad, I think we should read the last passage. It's a really special passage. It's like the magic of friendship and it's the end.

Everything changes after this, right? For Jon, everything changes. So let's preserve the happiness we have before a dance with dragons. The king's men cleared the door for when they told them of the choosing, and Three-Finger, Hob, and half a dozen helpers went trotting off to the kitchen to fetch the food. John did not wait to eat. He walked across the castle, wondering if he were dreaming, with the raven on his shoulder and ghost at his heels. Pip, Gren, and Sam trailed after him, chattering, but he hardly heard a word until Gren whispered,

Sam did it! And Pip said, Sam did it! Pip had brought a wineskin with him, and he took a long drink and chanted, Sam! Sam! Sam the wizard! Sam the wonder! Sam! Sam the Marvel Man! He did it! But when did you hide the raven in the kettle, Sam? And how in seven hells could you be certain it would fly to John? It would have mucked up everything if the bird had decided to perch on Janoslyn's fat head. I had nothing to do with the bird, Sam insisted.

When it flew out the kettle, I almost wet myself. John laughed, half amazed that he still remembered how. You're all a bunch of mad fools, do you know that? Us? said Pip. You call us fools? We're not the ones who got chosen as the 998th Lord Commander of the Night's Watch! You best have some wine, Lord John, I think you're gonna need a lot of it! And a lot of wine! So Jon Snow took the wineskin from his hand and had a swallow, but only one. The wall was his, the night was dark, and he had a king to face. A terror?

The night is dark? Full of terrors? Are you saying that Stannis is the terror? He was the terror in this situation. I guess. Also the hangover. The ascending hangover that it sounds like. I love this ending of the chapter.

I think that was nice. I do. And before we go into like an actual discussion, I just, I like how we have that emphasis, right? The change in emphasis of how Grun says it, then Pip says it of like that Sam did it.

Grun's like, Sam did it. Like, holy shit, dude. Sam did it. Sam's like, Sam did it.

Like, fuck, he really pulled it off. It's kind of funny. It's, I don't know if you've ever played that game where you say the same sentence over and over again but change which word you emphasize that's what he just did yeah they did that that's what George did

I haven't played that since I was in high school I don't think I have since improv or something in high school oh yeah you're right it is an improv game too maybe I have played it more recently than I thought and i blocked it out probably it is improv i liked i liked improv i thought it was fun it can be fun but yeah for sure i love the silhouette john cuts he's walking around the wall and he's got the crow on his shoulder and ghosts at his side and long claw in his belt. Yes. And he's a Lord Commander.

It's everything you could really want. Yeah. You know, except for the part where, like, his first love's dead. But I guess you can't have that if you're a Lord Commander anyway, so. And then you're gonna die, so it doesn't matter. Nothing matters. Everyone dies. Except for Ghost.

So. He's gonna live forever. A storm of swords was wild for john oh it was i feel like it feels like it's been a really long time since we started this book with john just because so many things happen for him in this story he really grows like i mean you start off you start this book and he's turning cloak to mance like that's the beginning we went through so much he turns cloak he returns as an oath breaker he fights the wildlings and he ends this story as lord commander of the wall avoiding temptation very narrowly yes and i think what's interesting is as you said that he starts the story as a turn cloak and the reason he tells man said he's turning cloak is did you see where they put the bastard and in his

last chapter of A Storm of Swords he's like shit I can be head of the table now dude and it's quite the trajectory especially when you consider that Mance is transitioning from being a king to being a capture oh true he's transitioning from being a king to being a shitbag because he has to

pretend to be fucking rattleshirt man ugh that's a role-playing exercise i never want to do method acting i know right uh rattleshirt oh what a weirdo there's a point in the middle of this chapter also in regards to like starting off as a turncloak especially how it ends that line what is it turn cloak oathbreaker damned motherless damned it all ends with damned that's all you need to know and Dolores Edd basically is like yeah

I'm voting for you Jon I'm not doing you any favors and it's really not like as we've repeated in as it's been repeated in Ariane's chapters regarding Marcella like to crown him is to kill him, which ends up being the case for Jon here. It's not a kingship,

right? But it is the culmination of Jon's big adventure ending with him, like, with basically being CEO of the company and then um, yeah. It really goes to show, and especially because this is a more democratic decision, right? Even though Sam obviously conspired to make it happen um everyone chose john in the end like even the

people that aren't involved there are some men this watch that voted that are just random night's watch character number four you know what i mean yeah and that's a big reflection of his character and yeah they all voted with their arrowheads over the copper penny which again reminiscent of renly and also of all the bribes i guess that janice slinn took yeah i mean they were all super jazzed about it they were like floods of arrowheads everyone arrowheads everywhere now if only we had a bunch of dragonglass arrowheads for later on yeah there you go that's the next shadowing of what they need. Speaking of Stannis, Sam Tarly really fucked Stannis' shit up here, didn't he?

I know. It's great. I love it. Holy shit, it's so good. Stannis is just staring out of a window right now going, fuck. It's so great because Sam also, I don't think, knows that Stannis offered this to Jon, so it's just

hilarious. Well, that that's the best part of all this while sam is having his own problem and trying to get all these people to vote for john john is over here brooding over should i be lord of winterfell or should i just like leave forever and die because they're gonna kill me because i'm a turncloak yeah i mean john is a great example of like you don't always have to take the very first job offer on the table yeah you should always sometimes there are other ones give yourself a little bit to say yes or no uh and leverage leverage them against each other even had john said yes would stannis have had the north john's a bastard and yeah he's the son of eddard stark but if the bastard son of eddard stark shows

up at winterfell beats the bolton somehow and burns the godswood to accept stannis as his like god they probably would still lose like i don't foresee i wouldn't foresee the northmen accepting john then because of the burning however as we know something's got to happen for them to accept john because i mean i think it's pretty obvious king in the north is a parent that it's gonna happen yeah it's gonna happen for at least a bit and i agree like i don't think burning the weirwood like that's a bad pr move not good for like trying to win the north and i understand why stannis thinks it's necessary but it's really not and this is why it's just like stannis this is why no one likes you but like in world in world i agree like in world i mean and that's what agon targaryen did right he converted to the religion of the majority

instead of being like everyone here's my here's my random gods from my empire that died i'll convert he was like he was faith of the seven in in name only as opposed to like balor right but it would have been as you were saying regarding the king in the north stuff you know we have one king trying to do it here but stanis being like i'm a king i can do whatever the fuck i want in terms to in terms of what you're doing at the wall but there is one that i think the North would honor, and that is Robb's will, of course. Absolutely. Robb's will is going to definitely be the end-all, say-all, for sure.

Yeah. I appreciate all this scheming on Sam's part, which obviously we can talk about more in Sam's storyline and what it means for him later on. But, you know, him undermining Stannis in the context of Stannis, like straight up telling him, because I like quickly went through that chapter again, being like, you would have been a great hostage, Sam. Well, Tarly, in terms of trying to get Randall to follow me and Maester Aemon's like, he took the black, Stannis. Can't do that. Well, we have a lot to look forward to in A Dance with Dragons. I think there's a lot of parallels for John and Danny, even in the end here, of avoiding temptation and, you know,

being elected as the ruler, taking the rulership in Danny's case. And A Dance with Dragons is very much so going to be us talking about how these characters are learning to navigate and rule or fail in their own ways as they embrace their animal self like the dragon versus the wolf in this example hmm that's true and

it is interesting though that as John in this chapter decides to accept the wolf right after having spent a lot of the book being like no i'm gonna move the wolf away as he wrestles with being a free folk or not and he picks the wolf but that doesn't mean picking winterfell here right you know what i mean yeah embracing his animal side embracing ghost embracing the wolf and literally embracing god literally but that you know embracing him literally and figuratively uh doesn't like you said mean

embracing winterfell and it also means embracing the best parts of winterfell at that very same time right he's embracing the old gods he's embracing his family through that he's finding a way to kind of honor them without burning their gods and we see through the speeches right that the other knights watchmen give him that this is absolutely a way to honor his family because everyone else is like well we voted for you because we loved your father we loved ned stark in his legacy and then also because he's benjen's legacy too this this all goes off that basic like i don't know like with the idea of tm scanlon's what do we owe to each other what's the most basic form of interaction as humans we owe to each other you know and like they're like well you took a vow that's what this is all based on they're basing their views of him on those things but also like

you took a vow you're committed to the watch Jon Snow yeah even if these fuckers don't think you are we all know you are we saw it which is why what happens in a dance with dragons comes and yeah we'll get to all that next week in fact we will be getting to that with Maester Mary

like we said earlier so stay tuned for that I'm really excited for that episode with her on. Yeah, I've been looking forward to having Mary on for a while. She's been doing a lot of great thinking on John. Yes, and really do check out her essay. It's like required reading before next week's episode. It's The Last Temptation of Lord Commander Snow,

part one, killing the boy. We will try not to bug her too much next week about her next essay so everyone be nice to mary it'll come out when it comes out okay mary's not your bitch eliana oh my god eliana no i'm not so i will so i will but we get we get mary instead just probably better probably my opinion friendship friendship is the real essays we made a lot. Why? So anyways, everyone, stay tuned for updates from us. As you all know,

we are doing another reread series for His Dark Materials alongside this Aswath reread. So see which one's coming up next by subscribing to us on social media. You can find us at Girls Gone Canon on Twitter. Or, hey, maybe you have some reactions to us. We got a You can find us at Girls Gone Canon on Twitter. Or, hey, maybe you have some

reactions to us. We got a couple of really great emails this week, and they were sent to girlsgonecanon at gmail.com. As always, make sure you're subscribed to us on your podcast provider, whether it's Google Play, iTunes, Spotify, Podbean, Overcast,

as reminded to us by Pat Spanagle in email. We are on Overcast, that is the new one, and Stitcher and Acast as reminded to us by pat spinagle in email we are on overcast that is the new one uh and stitcher in a cast as well yep and of course we have a patreon if you are a subscriber five dollars and up you get a patreon only episode and this month we are doing those forgotten characters who might might have an impact in the Winds of Winter, but not Howlin' Reed. Yes, not Howlin' Reed. I know, I'm not allowed

to talk about Howlin' Reed. Thank you, guys. He's just too well-remembered. We'll have some good characters. We'll talk about the Royces, even. Some people in maybe Rickon's arc. A bunch of different stuff, so stay tuned for that.

As always, I have been one of your hosts, Chloe. And I have been another one of your hosts, Eliana. Thanks, guys.