Girls Gone Canon Cast - ASOIAF Episode 69 - ADWD Jon III

Episode Date: October 11, 2019

The king of lies... but which king is it? Jon watches as Mance (????????) is burned alive by Stannis and his red witch, then realizes he'd rather eat at the library for lunch instead of the cafeteria.  --- Eliana's twitter: https://twitter.com/arhythmetric   Eliana's reddit account: https://www.reddit.com/user/glass_table_girl  Eliana's blog: https://themanyfacedblog.wordpress.com/  Chloe's twitter: https://twitter.com/liesandarbor  Chloe's blog: www.liesandarborgold.com  Intro by Anton Langhage  

Hello and welcome to Girls Gone Canon, A Song of Ice and Fire, episode 69. Nice. Nice. John 3 in A Dance with Dragons. I am one of your hosts, Chloe. You know me from the internet, liesandarborgold.com. And I'm another one of your hosts, Eliana. You know me also from the internet, maybe as Glass Table Girl,

maybe as Arithmetric, depending on where you are. Also from the internet. Maybe it's Glass Table Girl, maybe it's Arithmetric, depending on where you are. In honor of this episode, we are actually not going to talk about John 3 or A Song of Ice and Fire. This is now a Wild Stallions, aka Bill and Ted podcast. Which one of us is Bill and which one's Ted? I guess I'm Ted. Okay, so I guess I'm Bill. Yeah, you're Bill.

I do think we have to do something special, right? This is the Girls Gone Canon. Do 69. Wait. No, gross. My wife. I know. We have a marriage that's kind of like Sully's and Stannis.

It's only duty. Don, we don't consummate. It's duty only, duty driven. Or is it, no, it's more like Lancel and Gatehouse Amy. Well, if you want to know more about what happens behind closed doors, Eliana and I will actually be together in the flesh in a few weeks. We're going to record our Patreon episode together. We are. We're very excited.

As you all know, we just released in the Song of Ice record our Patreon episode together. We are. We're very excited. As you all know, we just released the Song of Ice and Fire Patreon episode about forgotten characters in the winds of winter. But, you know, we wanted you to remember that we are real ass people. We have another series that we are covering, His Dark Materials, which is, I mean, it's on the horizon. Yeah. And, you know, if you're a fan of the His Dark Materials series, if you're not, I strongly recommend them. I am now a fan. I was not before. But I remember the Golden Compass watching the movie when I was a kid.

I think I got it for Christmas. It was in one of those Walmart bins, like $5 bins or some crap. And my mom bought it for my stocking. And I watched it. I had no clue about any of it. I missed that train. I missed that train. So I had no clue about any about it. I watched the movie. I missed that train. So I had no clue about any about it.

I watched the movie. I liked the movie. Now as an adult, I watched the movie and I'm like, oh, that's a train wreck. So we're going to talk about The Golden Compass. We're going to go through the movie scene by scene like we do with books and kind of pick it apart. Talk about some of the things that happened in post-production to make it trash. It wasn't always a trash movie chris whites the director actually worked very hard at this movie you guys and new line cinema

swooped in and was like we don't think it's appropriate and they crashed a lot of the stuff out so i've got a lot of those fun juicy trivia facts that we're going to talk about i think we're going to probably imbibe in some drinks. Some libations. Some barley ale or some Dornish red. We're going to go get some Tokay. JK, we're not that rich. We're going to be popping bottles when we do that. It's going to be entree.

We'll see if we do it as a video version or what we're going to do. We might just record it. But either way, the chemistry will be there. will hear it it will be palpable and then patrons will also get probably some juicy behind the scenes action of Chloe and Eliana doing things over the weekend I'm sure but it's not 69 it's not about

episode 69 maybe it is maybe this is us celebrating our 69 episode yeah belatedly. Sometimes you gotta do that. The Girls Gone Canon Celebrate 69 Extravaganza. Oh god. Anyway.

The Golden Compass. The Golden Compass. It'll be fun. The new series does premiere October 4th for US fans. October 3rd for you lucky Brits. So we will go from there we will talk then and we will also reveal hopefully a little more of our schedule going forward for reviewing the show we'll be finishing the first book soon and be taking a break to chat about you guys with the

show uh the newly released show and then we will see how our subtle knife filming schedule becomes recording schedule becomes yes we're filming. We're actually filming. We're the actors. Yeah, we're the actors. I'm Laura, you're Will. Yeah, I'm the Malefa. You're Mary Malote.

Wow, spoilers. Yeah, sorry. Bringing you guys back to a different world, back to Westeros. We do have some emails, tweets, and notes I want to talk about. One of our friends, KJ's Emerald, was chatting with me and said, A thought I had listening to your episode today. The comparison of Jon and Aemon and their choice to take the black

always compares Bran and Egg, but it also protects Sansa's rule just as much. There would be plenty of Northmen that would support a man over a woman. Hope you guys have a good Friday. Huh. I didn't think of it that way, but it does. Jon, if he makes a choice, you know, in taking the black at the end to protect Bran's rule, it does also protect Sansa's rule just as much.

We've seen when bastards have claim enough to take land. Yeah, for sure. And I guess, especially in the books, right, where the Fagon plot is definitely going to be a thing. And you're going to see people reliving that dance of the dragons, like Civil War, male claimants versus female claimants. Jon's going to have seen that real life and been like, oh, that really sucked for Daenerys.

Maybe I'll do this for Sansa he's already seeing that too for Sansa I mean when you think about him with Stannis uh next next chapter especially we'll talk about this but of course that line you know Stannis says I've heard enough of Lady Lannister's claim and that's not how Jon sees it that's he has never seen this place as his home as him having ownership over it he's wanted it desired it but he never thought it could ever be true yeah exactly so i think that's a really good point we will likely see i think john and sansa intersect in the storyline of course we're going to see him intersect with bran probably in the kind of afterlife not afterlife but yeah

I mean in ghost as ghost inside of the dog they are going to chill woof woof well as always we have a lightning round to cover between John 2 which we covered last week with our guest Hannah from

Game of Owns, and John 3 in A Dance with Dragons, what we missed between those chapters. Tyrion 3. Tyrion meets new members of the RPG crew before boarding the Shy Maid, a half-maester and a duck. Switching boats disguised as Hugor Hill, he meets

two more people, both thought to be dead. Gasp! Gasp! Gasp! Davos I, Davos travels to the once independent sisters, captured by Boral's men. We must find a way to complete his journey in bringing the Manderlys to the cause. That leads us into John III. Azor Ahai has come again,

bearing his fire-lit steel for all to see, but something feels amiss. Stannis and Melisandre execute the king beyond the wall and his magical horn, and accept the wildlings into the realm at the cost of burning their gods. Jon reads the compendium left by Maester Aemon while his brothers question the free folk's assimilation. And so begins Jon III in dance, wearing only a thin tunic mance is bound he has a noose around his neck and the giant slayer has the end of his rope tied to his horse john thinks well you know they could at least let him keep the cloak that dala patched for him oh i see here chloe and that

this explains why the wall is weeping. It's crying for Mance. John had actually given a final plea to Stannis for Mance's life, telling him, like, yo, Mance's networking connections alone and his knowledge of the land are pretty good reason to keep him alive, but Stannis is like, I don't give a shit about that. Within that chapter, they address

this line of, the law was plain. A deserter's life was forfeit. Oh, interesting like this line of the law was plain a deserter's life was forfeit oh interesting line that's foreshadowing right I think so I mean that's what happens his life's forfeit Melisandre is preaching beneath the wall as they bring out

mance there are air quotes around these mances if you guys haven't noticed there are definitely air quotes happening. Mance? Mance? Mance? Hoomst? We all must choose, she proclaimed. Man or woman, young or old, lord

or peasant, our choices are the same. Her voice made John think of a niece in nutmeg and clothes. She stood at the king's side on a wooden scaffold raised above the pit we choose light or we choose darkness we choose good or we choose evil we choose the true god or the false there's a lot of interesting stuff happening in this preaching right this sermon that she's giving i do think a lot of this is the very root of the story right that we choose light or we choose darkness we choose good or we choose evil but

a lot of these characters stories are rooted in that like aria who chooses the literal house of black and white and who thinks sandor should have killed people to go get to her mom and should have saved cadeline and he didn't he was busy trying to keep Arya safe. It's these shades of gray in between the good and the bad. And I think it really frames this chapter with the choice, the choices that Jon is about to make and has made, the choices Jon keeps having to make and the choosing, right? The choosing that's always been the hardest. I think these passages to show us kind of what's happening with R'hllorism about Dany in the east and at least the beginnings of it and what we're going to see happen as it comes more to the west to

Westeros I just was going to talk about how I think it's weird that Jon thinks of Anise and that Meghan clothes like is Melisandre like fucking I don't know pumpkin spice sentence like her voice that's all that's what it is. That's what the sound's like to me. It does. I was going to say, Alessandra is just a big bowl of pho. I was also thinking pho. I was like, pho or pumpkin spice. Or both.

It's just, like, it's all in how you use it. I just don't expect her to smell comfort, like, her sound to, like, give her comfort. I expect her to be a little more chilly. She doesn't. Exactly. Or, like, I don't know, terrifying. Burnt. Yeah. Like, maybe she's utilizing her voice in a way more chilly. She doesn't. Exactly. Or like, I don't know, terrifying. Burnt. Yeah. Like maybe she's utilizing her voice in a way that is supposed to seem attractive and

trying to draw the flies into the light, right? Like into the lantern. She's bringing the wildlings in. And it's interesting because as we see later. Yeah. And like later on, they entice the wildlings to what? Cross the wall because they're like hey we have food so maybe her voice is supposed to smell or it's like sound like delicious food because people need food to live i don't know this is like peak girls gone canon

analysis we're trying to like realize what her voice smells like what is that yeah we're like but food i do love food uh so mance is struggling when he sees the cage made of trees from the haunted forest above the pit of logs and kindling and he says mercy this is not right i'm not the king they godry tugs on his rope to cut him off from what he's saying and by the time they get him out of the cage he's bloodied a dozen men put him in the cage and melisandre makes one more declaration free folk here stands your king of lies and here's the horn he promised would bring down the wall and there's some interesting irony going on here when i think of it in the context of like jesus's crucifixion right because like this is a reread and you all know right that this is not mance this is rattle shirt in a glamour and like first of all they trot mance and then first of all they trot mance out for everyone to

see and then melisandre announces him in a way that kind of reminds me personally of like jesus mockingly being called the king of the jews and i think the whole point right one of the big points of all of this is that jesus is crucified and killed as an innocent lamb standing in for the sins of others but i mean rattleshirt again is standing in for man so it becomes this perversion of all of that because like we all know rattattle shirt fucking sucks but he at the very least is innocent of what he's being executed for which is being the king beyond the wall and he's being sacrificed instead of man so it mirrors yet perverts the whole idea of that sacrifice yeah and there's the obvious jesus and john imagery that we have like joked about lightly and there's some other stuff from matthew i'm going to talk about later but there's a lot of heavy heavy just like themes that you find in christianity that are

replayed here with a lot of this stuff in sacrifice and i love that george has reached into not just that, but other religions as well that regard Sacrifice. And he does play with that, especially when it involves the old gods and R'hllor. I really like that a lot. I don't know. It's something I'm noticing more.

So I was talking about this chapter with my partner, and I don't remember if it's brought up in Mel's chapter or not, but does Rattleshirt know that he's glamored as mance right now and that everyone sees him as mance i think so oh maybe not though because i'm not sure i think so no he does because he's like he like is all like grinning at john about it oh yeah that's true i guess he wouldn't grin at Jon like that. Unknowingly. Yeah, if he didn't know.

Because that would be like a weird flex. Yeah. It's more like I believe Melisandre probably lied to him about what his role would be. I believe that for sure. I just think I just don't remember if he knows he's Glamour or not. But anyway. The horn has golden runes and bands carved into it of the First Men. Ygritte had told Jon that Mance had never found it,

but Mance himself confirmed just a few chapters ago he doesn't tell everyone in his party everything. How likely do you think at this point this is the horn of winter? I don't think it is. No. A lot of people liken it, right, to the Dragonbinder horn. They say that the imagery is actually incredibly similar. Yeah.

Yeah, it is. Especially with the runes. Dragonbinder has the silver runes. It's interesting because they're burning a false king because it's not Mance. It's Rattleshirt. And they're also probably burning a false horn of winter. I didn't think of that together. Yeah, Stannis is like the king of lies here.

Wow. Not Mance. Stannis is the king of lies here. Yeah. Wow. Right? It's like everything she's saying. And like, that's the thing is she knows what she's doing.

So at this point, she's just kind of choosing, like, to be ignorant. But she doesn't know, right? That he isn't Azor Ahai, I guess. Yeah. But she's like using cheat codes to make sure he is. Yeah. And that's silly to me because it's like Melisandre, you're lying to yourself. Which is probably the saddest kind of lie that someone can do.

Yeah. And, you know, if it's one thing that john has learned from mance because mance had told him egret said mance never found it but mance is like oh yeah well i don't tell everyone especially egret i'm not going to tell egret everything john and john has become just like that he's exacting that attitude right he does learn a lot of leadership ideas and and tactics from man so that's definitely true and along with that it's kind of like ned right yeah because ned definitely didn't tell everyone everything especially when it came to john and so we get this line again about the horn. And Jormun blew the horn of winter and woke giants from the earth.

So a thousand captives then watch this horn being lifted and they are ragged and half starved. And John thinks that they neither look wild nor free. They look hungry, frightened, and numb. Yeah, they don't care at this point. They just want like food and a nap. They'll probably do whatever you want them to do once you feed them. You know, you don't have to do your goth light show at this point.

The horn of Joramun, Melisandre said. No, call it the horn of darkness. If the wall falls, night falls as well. The long night that never ends, it must not happen, will not happen. The Lord of Light has seen his children in their peril and sent a champion to them, Azor Ahai reborn. She swept a hand towards Stannis and the great ruby at her throat pulsed with light. He is stone and she is flame.

The king's eyes were blue bruises sunk deep in a hollow face. He wore gray plate, a fur trimmed cloak of cloth and gold flowing from his broad shoulders. His breastplate had a flaming heart inlaid above his own. Girding his brows was a red gold crown with points like twisting flames. I love that description. It's a very scary description to think about. Stannis knows how to cosplay. Oh my god.

He cuts a Grievous figure. I mean, that's a crazy look he's wearing there. It is a crazy look. I like how we... I don't think people talk about what Stannis wears as much, but it's in contrast to a few chapters ago where Jon thinks, what, Stannis is gar like a night's watchman, but here he's all out in his like Baratheon colors. His hot coacher Kanga.

Oh my god. With the crown, it's all like points like twisting flames, and his breastplate has his big flames all over it. And I don't know. Fashion week. It goes on. 290 AD. Fashion week.

Val stands with them. She's made royal and wearing a crown as well, which reminds me a lot of Daenerys' floppy ears because Val obviously does not want to be wearing a crown. She must be like, okay, guys, here's the bronze circlet. It's on my head. Is everyone happy? She's like, why the fuck do people want this?

Lady Melisandre wore no crown, but every man there knew that she was Stannis Baratheon's real queen, not the homely woman he had left to shiver at Eastwatch by the sea. Hmm. Jon doesn't even know what T'Lis looks like. He'd never seen her in real life.

All of Jon's... Not yet, though. All of Jon's interiority about who looks like royalty and who doesn't, though, does remind me of the first time John saw Jaime Lannister in his first few A Game of Thrones chapters, where he's like, now that back then, if we examined it in the context of there used to be an intention on George's part to make Jamie King based on the 1993 letter. It really, I think, shows us a little bit about perception and power and leadership and station. Yeah. And within the same few passages, John has been like, these people are starving and they're humans. Who cares about all this? few passages john has been like these people are starving and they're humans who cares about all this but at the same time he still has that little bit of ingrained culture and norms in him of these people are ugly and weird they aren't really the queen or king and you even look at it when

regarding jano slint right you had to have that political prowess to think well if i don't kill this guy he's gonna kill me and he's regarding it now even though it's a little superficial um it's expected i guess it's it's a little superficial um it's expected i guess it's it's just like all those little comments that we get here and there of quentin thingy of roaches as the people and sansa in the window being like these people look like ants yeah john by thinking that it shows that he in a way is still a little bit living in the songs oh absolutely he needs to kill the boy yeah but not that boy not gilly's boy well too late rip oh i should just let that boy go now but we can't we can't for gilly's sake gotta hold on hope she's gotta hold on hope oh my god the gospel around the

camp is that stanis doesn't intend to bring Selyse and Shireen back into the fold until the night for it is done. And Jon's like, well, that's a pretty sad fucking place for them to live. They seem like this weird, like, sad, like, haunted house family. Yeah, they live on fucking Dragonstone.

Yeah. Poor Shireen. She just wants to be a normal little girl. Her parents are like, we're gonna move to these shitty places. Free folk, cried Melisandre. Behold the fate of those who choose the darkness. The horned jordman burst into flame. It went up

with a whoosh as swirling tongues of green and yellow fire leapt up crackling all along its length. A groan goes out against the free folk as the horn blazes and the runes are shining in the air and man man's claws man's claws at his noose from his cage and he begins to scream and he denies his people and his kingship and he shrieks for mercy and he starts laughing hysterically at the end uh very lady stoneheart also there to me john watched unblinking he drew not appear squeamish before his brothers

that brings me right back to bran uh in a game of thrones and don't look away father will know if you do oh that is a good comparison i i mean we know in a moment that Jon's watching for a different reason, but the way they describe it, it reminds me again of Mirri Mazdur being burned, right? At first she's like singing her song to give her strength, and then it just turns into screams. Jon ordered 200 men to stand out during all of this, mounted on horse with spears their hoods up mostly to hide the fact that they're like

old men or green men and most too young or old to do real damage and either way Jon wants the free folk to fear the watch though as they begin their new lives in the kingdom in the north yeah it's kind of a strategic move on Jon's part because there's this

aspect of where through this what he's doing is he's depersonalizing, dehumanizing the Night's Watch. Because as Jon, he doesn't think this explicitly, right? But as we see the story, Jon comes to understand and know the Free Folk as people, some as individuals. And because of that, he's come to empathize with them more and fear them less, is part of why he's like yeah we should let the free folk through the wall and that in in and of itself is a strategy as well right playing into empathy but here he's doing the opposite he's using that depersonalization of the night's watch to make them seem like a different entity a very cultural like a sociocultural other as opposed to the ice demons on the other side of the wall and that the free folk would then feel more fear from right but unfortunately that also makes it easier to hate something that is standing as an other to them and i think that this idea of that depersonalization and that inability to know others as that individual and really see them i think is going to end up being

a part of the later parts of a song of ice and fire with other cultures coming to westeros like the insolite and the dothraki i think it's a big struggle for the insolite they are seen very often right as as this big conglomerate person personless group, and they've been trained to be that. But, I mean, they all had individual hopes and wants and fears, too. and they don't get to keep who they are. They don't get to keep the peace of them. They're being told to throw away their religion and take up this new religion, and it's disgusting because Jon knows it's bad to do this to them, but he also thinks that this is the only way they will do it

and the only way they will come and the only way to get them through the wall, and he thinks the only way for them to live in Westeros and behave properly is for him to live in westeros and behave properly is for him to set up a police state in the north watching them yeah with with the night's watch but what john needs is leslie nope yes come back to that in a bit not in depth it's still gonna just be very quick but the fire then reaches mance who is now sobbing and begging and then john remembers a song brothers of brothers my days here are done the dornish

man's taken my life but what does it matter for all men must die and i've tasted the dornish man's wife oh my god my wife is so talented. I think so. You're so talented. Voice acting and singing at the same time. And patrons can get the full track for $75 a month. No, you can't. We don't offer this. I've come back to The Dornishman's

Wife after we've talked about it and not really understanding it. I've talked it through and consulted with some friends. I've reread some Theon chapters. Yeah, and after some discussion in some Theon chapters in the poor Quentin household, I have read.

So you have the one verse and the verses, it's interesting because all these verses kind of change through the books, right? You get new lyrics as we go through the books, and you get, for example, Mance changing the words. Like, the first verse that he changes, instead of, the Dornishman's wife was as fair as the sun, and her kisses were warmer than spring, but the Dornishman's blade was made of black steel and its kiss was a terrible thing and it reminds me of the passage where we read he was still waiting for his porridge when Ramsey swept into the hall with his bastards boys shouting for music Abel rubbed the sleep from his eyes took up his

loot and launched into the Dornishman's wife whilst one of the washerwomen beat time on her drum the singer changed the words, though. Instead of tasting a Dornishman's wife, he sang of tasting a Northman's daughter. So, to continue this exploration, Eliana, I know you're so intrigued and I can tell, so I'm going to tell you more. I am intrigued.

This song is actually foretelling Mance's fate. So we'll move on to the song too the dornishman's wife would sing as she bathed in a voice that was sweet as a peach but the dornishman's blade had a song of its own in a bite sharp and cold as a leech so it brings me to theon who foretold man's fate as well what theon said to abel, Ramsay will use your women as his prey. He'll hunt them down, rape them, feed their corpses to his dogs. If they lead a good chase,

he may name his next litter of bitches after them. You he'll flay. Him and Skinner and Daemon dance for me. They'll make a game of it and you'll be begging them to kill you. You swore you would not let me fall into his hands again. I have your word on that. So in the letter we get eventually, in the pink letter,

we also kind of hear that, oh, he has Vance in a cage. It wouldn't be unlikely that the pink letter has that fact straight. I think Stannis is probably not true in that letter. He doesn't have Stannis. But I think as we explore that letter, we'll probably come back to some of this, that Vance is probably likely he does have Vance bands and then there's the final verse i'm going to talk about which is as he lay on the ground with the darkness around and the taste of his

blood on his tongue his brothers knelt by him and prayed him a prayer and he smiled and he laughed and he sung brothers oh brothers my days here are done the dornishman's taken my life but what does it matter for all men must die and I've tasted the Dornishman's wife um where Mance is at the last time we see him or hear from him before the pink letter Bruce asks for the singer to come sing them something and he bows and comes forward and sits cross-legged on top of the high table and he starts playing a sad soft song theon doesn't recognize which is likely to be jenny's song in my opinion and sir hostine sir anis and the other frays go off to lead their horses from the hall so the boltons have mance right in front of them right now and of course the first time we meet mance he's singing to himself and to john on his

loot what does it matter for all men must die the king beyond the wall said lightly and i've tasted the dornishman's wife yeah i think in the context of it being what happens to mance i think that really works because you know last time when we had talked about this song we talked about it as like being about the seasons but if you think about it as the seasons of like one's life whoa different song but oh i was thinking seasons of my love my bad oh close enough god damn it anyways so if you think about it as the seasons of like mance's life maybe you know he's he's had his like youth and his summer. Now he's in the spring. He's nearing the winter, literally, of his life, etc. And I mean, the next book is allegedly The Winds of Winter. And if all this is happening to Mance, like that makes sense, right? If the Dornishman somehow is, and his knife is winter, et cetera, especially with like being Ramsay Snow.

And yeah, I think that's really interesting. And that really provides more context than to the brothers, oh brothers, my days here done. Because as we're reminded in this chapter, Mance was a brother. Of the Watch. Wow.

Yeah. And Ramsay is Mance now. was a brother of the watch. Wow. Yeah, and... Ramsey has Mance now, so I'm sure Ramsey has inkled information out of Mance. I think that's pretty much what we should take from that, but we'll come back to that in just a little bit, in a few chapters, handful of chapters here. For sure. But until then, Val,

probably still confusedly wearing the circlet, watches from the platform, and John thinks she looks as if she were carved of salt. She doesn't look away or cry. Some very Lot's Wife and Sodom and Gomorrah vibes here, and it makes John think of what Ygritte would have done. The women are the strong ones. He found himself thinking about Sam and Maester Aemon, about Gilly and the Babe. She will curse me with her dying breath, but I saw no other way.

Well, Ygritte would have watched too. That's the point, I guess. Jon hears reports of storms from Eastwatch on the Narrow Sea and hopes that they're safe. And he dreamed the night before of Sam drowning and of Ygritte dying with his arrow in her, even though he knows it wasn't real life. And then G wept tears of blood it's all very metal yes very metal dream and it reminds me of eddard 13 and a game of thrones promise me ned liana statue whispered she wore a garland of

pale blue roses and her eyes wept blood same kind of concept same amount of guilt uh liana and ashara are kind of the big characters used for guilt in this book right like anytime anyone is sad or feels guilty it's probably about them and they should feel guilty to be fair everyone should feel guilty except like john no he should too actually so they should all just feel guilty but, is her name Gilly because she makes him feel guilty? No. Because he should? Yep. Yep. I can't do that.

Yep. Can't agree. Yes. John is sick of watching Mance on the fire, and then he commands his men, Now, Ulmer of the Kingswood shoots an arrow, as do several others, straight into Mance. Mance? So where the arrows hit Mance,

does it parallel where Jon is stabbed? Oh. Because one arrow hits him in the chest, one in the gut, and one in the throat. Granted, the dagger that hits Jon in the throat, in the gut and one in the throat granted the the one that the dagger that hits john in the throat right it doesn't quite hit him it like comes across it but there are theories that it was like a very important artery and that causes john to leave to lose blood faster and there's a fourth arrow it doesn't reach man so it hits the bars around it and we do of course have that iconic line, as everyone remembers,

John never felt the fourth knife. That probably means that he did, there was a fourth knife, but he didn't feel it in the same way that the last arrow doesn't quite make it. Thoughts? That's a really interesting parallel. I deem it true. Thank you.

It's canon. Just like Gilly and Guilty? I never realized that. No, that's not canon. You're fired. But this is, you're rehired for this one wow you have a big career ahead of you it's a rocky career it's a really sad scene they just had to kill the king in front of them and there's this line that i really love for a

couple reasons uh a woman sobs echoed off the wall as the wildling king slid bonelessly to the floor of his cage, wreathed in fire. It's so clever when you come back to it. Bonelessly. Because, you know, rattle shirt, the lord of bones. Yeah. No bones. It also quickly reminds me of Stannis' Vision.

A king with a crown of fire wreathed in reason flames but i don't think it's this one but the bonelessly is interesting though it's definitely that nudge yeah and like i see you george i see you and it reminds me of something called no bones which was the answer to free hug signs at a convention i went to and let me explain it to you without having to physically demonstrate i'll have to physically demonstrate when I visit you so much better but people would shove a sign in your face that said free hugs and I don't want to give a free hug so I would say okay sure and act like I was going to give a free hug and then like as soon as they put their arms around you you just you just go limp and you fall to the ground and, no bones. I don't remember that happening.

That is an innovation that came later. No, I don't know if that innovation ever took off. But it took off for my group in OhioCon 2014. So I'm an icon. Yep. I think so. Well, now you all know it's when you go to conventions and people are all like free hugs just no bones them yeah so john softly murmurs as the manse dies

manse dies manse now his watch is done stannis watches scowling and john refuses to meet his eyes melisandre returns to giving a sermon to the wildlings about the Lord of Light, how he created fire, and how Stannis is their true king. Free folk, your false gods cannot help you. Your false horn did not save you. Your false king brought you only death, despair, defeat. But here stands the true king. Behold his glory! Stannis Baratheon drew Lightbringer. The sword glowed red and yellow and orange, alive with light.

Jon had seen the show before. Not like this. Never before like this. Lightbringer was the sun made steel. When Stannis raised his blade above his head, men had to turn their heads or cover their eyes. Horses shied and one threw his rider. The blaze in the fire pit seemed to shrink before his storm of light, like a small dog cowering before a larger one. The wall itself turned red and pink and orange as waves of color danced across the ice.

Is this the power of king's blood that's an intense passage holy crap it is an intense passage i love the part the the pit seemed to shrink before this storm of light yeah because you know storm lands oh i was thinking a storm of swords oh but that also is true that's right he's he's the storm lord yeah right mel smoke and mirrors light show it turns out is like super high quality this is where the budget went yeah i just watched spider-man far from home last night it was really good by the way but it's basically this is mysterio level of illusionary uh the people shying in fear from it the blaze of fire the wall turning colors is this the power of king's blood yeah it's intense that's an intense uh it's crazy to think if that is then what can

real king's blood do in my opinion it's still. Yeah, it's still smoke and mirrors, but really good allusion, Mysterio. Yeah, Mysterio and Alessandra, that's... The ship. I guess so. Or are they one and the same? I don't know. A little of both. Stannis tells them that they can bend a knee and receive food, land, and justice, or they can go and die. He commands them to open the gates, and Clayton sucks.

More like, Sir Clayton sucks. He sucks. And Corliss Penny, return the bellow. I wonder if there's something here with all the, open the gates, King's Landing. I don't know. The gates open, and Jon has Ed open the iron gates as well, and Melisandre tells them to come to the light or run back to the darkness, and below her is a pit full of fire.

If you would eat, come to me, John thought. If you would not freeze or starve, submit. This line reminds me of, there's this passage from Matthew 25, 34-40. Then the king will say to those on his right, hum, my father has blessed you. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the creation of the world. I was hungry and you gave me something to eat. I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink. I was a stranger and you took me into your home. I needed clothes and you gave me something to wear. I was sick and you took care of me. Kind of feels like Stannis has a bit of a god complex here

without doing the godly things. Yeah, he does, because I think the whole point is you're supposed to give them something to eat, etc., regardless. Like, isn't that what happens in this passage, right? Because the king is like, I needed something. The king needed something, and the king is the one who received food when they were hungry and thirsty, right? That's what's happening in there.

If I remember that context. Stannis. Which he just did. That's true. Stannis did need a home and the Night's Watch was like, okay, I guess you can stay here. Against our better judgment. Yeah, they're're like can you go

like we're being really hospitable please be nice to us and then he's like but Stannis had to lick the bowl yeah he's like I'm going to lock you all in a room and you're going to pick someone that's what happened at the end of last book and then he's like I don't like this outcome but damn it now I have to live with this

it's a slow go at first but once the free folks see that it's not a trap they begin to stream through except like it is yes it's just a choice so they have to go into this trap because the other side's a trap too like it's not freedom this isn't freedom and like just to talk about the good show game of thr Thrones. Oh my God. This is something I would have loved to see them actually do. It has the same power. I think they tried to kind of foist on us

with that controversial season eight Danny scene. Like not as much lazy Nazi symbolism they put behind it, but I just don't think we're supposed to see this scene and feel warm and good inside. No pun intended. We're supposed to be like, Oh my God.

Yikes. Like there's huge ass fires everywhere. Stannis is making them burn their gods to get salvation this isn't like walking into a peace protester rally like everybody's walking in they're afraid and the heat of the fire is so strong uh it's kind of crazy it feels with the exception of the part where the sword is pretty cool yeah It feels hellish rather than salvation. It's like then they pass through and the queensmen hand them

each a weirwood branch covered with its red leaves that they're gonna go burn to offer to the new gods that they're accepting. It's like dog. John sees a few wildlings who are wary of the flames as they approach because they're blistering

hot he can like feel it from where he's standing which isn't as close as they're gonna go like this is not your typical like cool ass bonfire yeah this is not like your Sunday church visit he's listening to children cry and some of the free folk he sees

head back to the woods he watches a mother with two children holding her hands go into the wood and she's looking back the whole time to make sure no one's following them she breaks into a run as soon as she gets to the edge of the forest and that makes me so sad because they're walking straight into their doom but she couldn't trust that they'd be safe there. Yeah. I mean, for obvious reasons. Yeah, I mean, another man does, there's a Free Folk member that takes a branch and he uses it as a weapon as soon as he gets inside,

and the Queen's men come down on him with spears and kill him, and, like, obviously, no, he shouldn't have been using it as a spear to fight these people, but, I mean, also, you knew it was going to happen at some point. I mean. Yeah, he's basically unarmed. You know, he is a branch. Yeah, exactly.

It's, again, police state being instituted. But Corlys throws him in the fire afterwards so that he doesn't come back to life. But that alone, it's like it's a sad scene. They're literally being forced to shed their religions and their cultures and their beliefs yeah just so that they can live another day and it as as people in our very core of humanity those are the things that we utilize to kind of define us right like we live our lives by then and they kind of do structure some of the things we do some of the hobbies we pursue and some of the things we like. I mean, my life is pretty structured, unfortunately, about this in our podcast.

This is it. This is our last note. This is it. But I mean. Episode 69. They have traditions and different things that are just being broken and ripped apart and burnt. And what's the reason to live when you don't have the things that you lived for?

John's thinking about how it's too cold for this mummer show this entire time and that he warned Stannis, they'll love you more if you let them keep their pride. But Stannis didn't listen. He wanted their swords and not their kisses. And that fear versus love mentality of rulership comes in most here because in the end, Stannis wants to wage war on this kingdom to conquer it. And he doesn't care about the consequences of the war. and he doesn't care about the consequences of the war. Yeah, like in the context of everything you're saying, I think the line that stands out to me so much that you quoted earlier was Jon thinking like,

if you would eat, come to me, Jon thought. If you would not freeze or starve, submit. And it's all the things like you were saying, like what people are being asked to give up because Jon's thinking that Stannis is getting what like, Stannis, I think like Stannis I think Stannis thinks he wants this he thinks that he's presenting a choice to the wildlings

and that someone is finally choosing him right but the phrasing of everything if you would eat come to me if you would not freeze or starve submit that's coercion that's not a real choice and i think like

you said this is something that wasn't conveyed well or that they tried to maybe herald to in season eight because i think as people pointed out there's a lot of parallels between stannis and daenerys but like john thought earlier in this chapter none of these people look wild or free anymore and they're being forced to give up like they're being forced to give up their religion they're being forced to give up their culture that's not just like i don't know giving up a small thing right like that's they're being put into camps they're being put into camps of people that some of them are dying because they don't have the right protein nutrients and things to sustain them and it's cold and it's winter and they're just left in like pens like pigs i mean yeah and the choices between that or the wilderness

where there isn't anything that's not freedom yeah that stannis is giving them the forced stripping of a culture in exchange for the promise of just literally survival of the basics that's violence and they're being raped in the system they're being pushed into violence because they're being forced then to go to war boys as young as 12 anyone that can hold a spear is going to be forced to go to war whether it's against stanis's enemies or whether the watch makes them you're being saved and utilized to push the war against the others is one thing because it's inevitable, right? Like that's going to happen. And that's a more worthwhile cause than you're going to fight Stannis' enemies.

Yes, yes. And I was talking about this chapter again, like with my partner, and about how what Stannis is doing here is violence. Because I think you see a lot of people talk about Stannis coming to the wall as being his turning point towards good. And yes, there is a righteousness in choosing to defend the wall, but what he's doing here, this is not a good. No, it's bad.

This is not righteous. This is kind of close to ethnic cleansing. I'm going to say it. I'm going to say it. No, you should. By forcing people to give up their culture and their religion. And I feel strongly about this because I come from a culture that has lost a lot of what we had because people forced us to convert to Christianity.

And what have we lost? There's so much that people have lost. There's so much richness that is gone that I don't even know what was in our history because someone forced them all to convert. And yeah, again, I was talking, we were talking about what is violence and how he has read something that the threat of violence in and of itself and this, again, coercion is violence like it's the example that he used that he'd read you know Genghis Khan coming to a city and saying submit or die right like that's not a real choice no that's violence well that's where those parallels

are with Dany right like kneel or I'll burn you exactly Exactly. Exactly. So I think that's something that Stannis, to me, has a long way to go before. I understand people seem as righteous, but this is not. No, this is not righteous. And I actually think, similar to what you're saying, I don't think that Wins is the heel turn where Stannis is being good and righteous and just or anything. He's not. In the last couple chapters, you and I alone have talked about, like, wow, he's kind of a dick. Like, he's being a major dick. Like, in Storm, yes, he shows up all like,

I'm here and I'm righteous, but Dance is really fulfilling that second half and showing you, like, this isn't righteous. This is him doing it for his own cause, and he doesn't care about these consequences, whether they're intended or unintended, and they are intended. I mean, he wants them to submit to him and be his.

He sees them as a number. Yeah, he does. And there's not even a promise of like what on the other end, you know, you convert to R'hllor and you go to heaven or something that that's not even on the other end of the promise of all of this. Right. So it's just like you have to do this because. heaven or something that that's not even on the other end of the promise of all of this right so it's just like you have to do this because no chance no choice relore fucking said so yeah in a bad way yeah horse and satin are supposed to lead the wildlings through the wall with torches

to treasures awaiting new free folk of the realm the treasures they're being offered so this is what the wildlings are being offered after burning everything they stand for in their gods. And you know, no big deal. Hot onion soup with bread and sausage, which I'm going to be honest, that does sound delicious right now. It sounds really good. Clothing, clean straw piles for sleeping on

and fires to keep them warm. But Jon thinks what happens when Tormund attacks the wall? Will the new free folk remain loyal then? Before they chose Mance, will they stay loyal to Stannis or is Tormund going to wall. Will the new free folk remain loyal then? Before they chose Mance, will they stay loyal to Stannis, or is Tormund going to be their new king? Bowen rides alongside Jon and says he's never thought he'd see this day. He's missing part of his ear, and he's lost weight due to a head wound from the Bridge of Skulls against the free folk. He asks, we bled to stop the wildlings at the Gorge. Good men were slain there. Friends and brothers, for what?

Alistair pipes in, saying the realm will curse them and that all honest men in Westeros will spit at the mention of the Night's Watch. Yeah, I understand intellectually what this means for Bowen and Alistair and why this leads to them offing Jon. I think that they're wrong, right? I mean, Jon's going against everything that they were meant to do, but viscerally, I still struggle to, like, to really get behind them. I do think it's worth remembering, though,

that Alistair and Bowen never faced the wights or the others. Unlike a lot of the other members of the Night's Watch, it seems like many who have either encountered the others or truly understand what that means are less concerned by letting the free folk through. But all of the guys who actually faced the wights and the others were kind of slaughtered when, you know, they faced the wights or the free folk through. But all of the guys who actually faced the whites and the others were kind of slaughtered when they faced the whites or the others. Yeah, and it is that difference that highlights who they are as men and who Jon is, right?

Like by not facing that, they have these frivolous concerns like what will the realm think of this penal colony that it turns out, hey, the realm doesn't already highly think well of them. Thorne thinks here, what will they think of us? Well, they already don't think of you, Thorn. I don't think of you at all. It's almost like telling these older men that, you know,

are so wrapped up in the system that guess what? They're not coming for us. They never were. Yeah. Your good deeds here aren't going to lead you to anything like joyous land wise. You know, you're not going to be noticed by the king for your valor during this yeah they send you here to forget about you yeah they sent you here so you could do work die against these ice zombies that it turns out people did know about one time but they hushed it up and put it behind a wall and there you go now you have to defend the realm

because your life is worth worth bullshit like that's pretty much what it is so it's like they won't let go of these you know these crazy ambitions they had before and they're bored little housewives on the wall so yeah and i think there's a part of it of like you said they're like what will the king think because i think they are still hoping someone's gonna help them but i this comes back to what john was discussing with sam last chapter he's like ah they still aren't gonna fucking like us or help us so what's the fucking point what's the point of this letter john had toyed with giving gray guard to alicer after killing janos because thorn had been a bit more behaved since that beheading but the malice is obviously still there he wants to keep him close yeah i don't know if there's

really a good choice for john here right because at the same time john is kind of doing the opposite of what i think was quite a wise decision on jr's part jr i think was pretty fucking smart in parting alicer and john because he saw the animosity between the two but i also understand that you know there's that line of keep your friends close and your enemies closer so i don't know john keep alicer at a medium distance he thinks that alicer is actually more dangerous than slint and so instead sent a different steward to gray guard hoping that the new garrisons are going to be able to help the watch but john knows that they have no rangers and there are still too few men. He needs to send men out, but he wonders, if I send them out, are they going to come back again? The going is slow, as most wildlings are old, ill, or wounded.

And when the last knee bends, night has fallen and the fires are low. The king's shadow is now normal again. Because he's just a man, after all. He is. is now normal again because he's just a man after all he is i kind of almost wonder is this is reading too much into it that you know earlier when it was like bright outside and light his shadows enormous and this fire is enormous but now that it's night maybe like the long night his fire is smaller and the shadow and thus power is smaller too okay i don't know metaphors it's not really i think really a thing but it could be a metaphor later on no i definitely think it is

i mean that's kind of why i added he is just a man you know yeah he's uh not azor ahai after all he's just a poor boy you know throughout all this john keeps seeing his breath in this chapter and it keeps getting colder and colder every single time he talks about it and you can almost feel your own nostrils freeze with him right the some of you may not understand that i guess now that i say it out loud wow that's weird some people don't have snow where they live but that's true if you've never felt the snow or bed in the cold if you go outside your nostrils can freeze and then when you go inside again yeah defrost they defrost too and it's awful yeah the snow is cool for all of like i don't know

five minutes oh i love it or less i love it what i'm like it's all right for a moment then you have to actually deal with it then i'm like fuck this shit oh i love it you have to like it's all right for a moment then you have to actually deal with it then i'm like fuck this shit oh i love it you have to like shovel it and then it like gets in the way and then how are you gonna do all the things oh okay i'm done i hate the cold no no uh there's two score of captives that are left by the stockade and four of them are giants loped shoulders legs as large as tree trunks huge huge, splayed feet, and they were going to pass through the wall, but one refused to leave his mammoth,

so they stayed. Yeah, it just makes me think of the last springs to mind here in a lot of ways. This is a whole people who are being forced to assimilate, and especially the smaller subset of this whole people, the giants who have already seen everyone die

yeah this is the end they're the last yeah yeah uh i mean everyone in the stockades right they're dead and dying and some of the people who are left out there they're kin and companions who don't want to abandon each other even for the promise of like just some food they'd rather i guess starve and some are too cold even to feel and stannis just tells them all right you're free to leave and tell your people acting like they're gonna go be fucking missionaries or something tell your people what happened here at the wall with the true king of westeros and that he will not let them attack his wall. I'm just like, again, some of these people are now literally unable to make it. The giants, once more, last of them. And Stannis

refuses them aid because, what, they don't convert or they're unable to? Like, again, again, this is violence. It is erasure and it's the attempted eradication of a culture. It's worse to think about the families. I mean, you think about this happening in real life and other places, the families that die because someone is sick or hurt and they can't move and they don't want to leave them and don't want to live in this world without that because this world is scary and they have nothing now in this world because it's all been taken away from them. It's people that would rather choose death than to leave their family and their culture.

And it's very sad. Fuck off, Stannis. I'm mad at you right now. I like, I'll like him again eventually. Maybe if he says something good and righteous, but like this chapter really does bum me out. It's dark times ahead. Yeah, I mean, he could offer some aid to them, right?

And it's like, it's that weird political line of he has no rights at the wall to say what the wall does. However, this is him settling in his quote unquote kingdom. And John refused Winterfell. So John has no say over Winterfell. So now Stannis has decided to move ahead and forge ahead with his plans. He's not going to wait to figure it out. And he has say over what happens in the north he decided so it's hard because we're looking at this as northern loyalists obviously because we are but it's hard to like look at this and be like uh like i i

it's not right for stannis really in my my opinion, still to mess with the North, even though we have no claim over it in this conversation. I think what's also funny is that here, you know, in the outline, as you've pointed out, like, Stannis is calling it his wall. It's like, that's not how the wall works. It's literally not how the wall works. As they've tried to explain to him many times,

they're like, no, we're not supposed to take part. This passage, I'm going to make you read read it's a melisandre passage uh really sets the scene for all of this really unsettling gives me the heebie-jeebies interesting one realm one god one king cried lady melisandre the queen's men took up cry, beating the butts of their spears against their shields. One realm, one god, one king. Stannis! Stannis! One realm, one god, one king! Val did not join the chant, he saw, nor did the brothers of the Night's Watch. Not exactly the happiest PR stop of the trip, you know? PR stop of the trip. You know?

Yeah. At least I'm glad that the brothers of the Night's Watch understand the PR of all this. They're like, no, this is literally not what we do. Again, Stannis. If you want to know what really was the straw that broke the camel's back or the knife that killed the Jon Snow,

Oh, wow. It really probably is the Stannis stuff. It's like when you invite friendsis stuff, because this is like, it's like when you invite friends over and you think they're cool, but then they throw, and you're like, I'm going to have some people over, but then they throw a big party,

like in Mean Girls, Katie Heron, and they turn her whole house into a huge, crazy party. That's what Jon did. He's like, yeah, you can come over. You can invite a couple people, man. And then Stannis invites all the free folk through the wall

and lights everything on fire that's actually what he does that's literally what he does and john was like to his family he's like look like they're only gonna stay for a little bit and they're not gonna throw any crazy ragers but here they are burning people like he just burnt someone yeah just because what he waved a stick at people? Well, not just that. No, they killed him and burnt him, but I'm saying, like, Mance, quote-unquote, like, that's the biggest one.

That's true. Both of them did that, I guess. But the big thing here is, like, this is what Stannis does. He goes places and he lights people on fire. Like, he came to the North and that's what he did here, too. I wonder if, like, M man saw what john did with jano slint who i guess somewhat threatened john's power right yeah or he did and i guess

stannis sees mance as a threat to his power is like that was a good idea let's do that but with fire it's true though because withoutance, like, they'll never follow anyone else. Mm. I mean, not to play devil's advocate, though. Sorry, but I know we're anti-Stanis this episode. This is the episode. Yeah, but I mean, like, Jon did think he's, like, without Nance, the coalition falls apart. Yeah. I don't know that I agree with Stannis killing Nance in that way. It's more just a...

I get it. He didn't have to do all the other shit too of like we did we killed your king yeah now give up your culture so the last wildlings go through the trees the giants are the last to go and only the dead remain the king's honor guard falls in around melon stannis as they descend from their platform john commands marsh to break up the stockade and burn the dead. He asks Jon if he thinks the wildlings will keep faith. Jon says some will, not all, that they have cowards and weaklings just like the Watch.

Marsh points out they're sworn to protect the realm, and Jon says once they're settled, the wildlings are a part of our realm. We have seen the face of our real foe, a dead white face with bright blue eyes. The free folk have seen that face as well. Stannis is not wrong in this. We must make common cause with the wildlings. But Marsha's like, so why don't we lock them up over there then,

on that side of the wall, and they'll fight the others from over there. He's like, it's really easy. Jon, I got this this i thought this through bowen analyzes that man's men had spent actually 10 000 arrows on them yet only 100 barely made it up to the wall to attack he's like it's gonna be so easy we just gotta we're on top of the wall we can keep them them out. To Ormond's men, they're mostly going to be women and elderly people and unable to battle, like, the first round

of the free folk that we had to deal with. And, like, just, if we had sealed the gate, Bowen's like, then Donald Noy wouldn't have had to die

so bravely. Damn, like, deep cuts, Bowen. Right. John is worried, though, that sealing the gates means blinding them against rangings

and, of course, what lies beyond the wall. I agree. In is worried, though, that sealing the gates means blinding them against rangings and, of course, what lies beyond the wall. I agree in one sense. I think you could also argue, along with all this, there's a metaphor, right, of John wants to keep his options open, doors open. Sealing everything up sacrifices some of that flexibility for supposed safety. And I guess that's kind of what happens now that I think about it in the last chapter. John doesn't want to close off all his doors right that's why he's not sending letters and telling people things anyways but what I really don't get is why John doesn't just say you know like Bowen you think this through a little more right they literally cannot stand against the others out there I can see why you're like yeah they'll fight the others out there we'll

fight them from up here no our men they were trained they couldn't fucking do it on the fist of the first men these starving weakened people definitely can't and the more of them that die the more of them that can like attack the wall they don't give a shit if you stab at them from the top of the wall they're gonna keep coming because they're dead it's pretty fucking straightforward i don't know why john doesn why John doesn't just lay it out like this for everyone. He keeps coming up with all these other reasons. I'm like, John, it's straightforward. Yeah.

Marsh argues back, too, against this. He's like, the last ranging, we lost a quarter of our men. We need to conserve our strength. He says his uncle used to say, take the high ground and win the battle. And no ground is higher than the wall. I don't think that's what your uncle meant. Yeah. Not at all.

John finalizes. He's like, we can't do that. Stannis is promising salvation through the gate to the wildlings. Marsh says there's word of him being too friendly to King Stannis. Oh, like sexy rumor. Episode 69. Nice. Let alone the other rumors around camp but john doesn't see

any other option that's a common thing with john lately they don't have enough men to fight stanisoff and the wildlings and he's their guest they owe him marsh still thinks he's a rebel and he's doomed if the throne marks them all as traitors to his cause john doesn't plan on choosing a side since Tywin's dead, killed by Jon's acquaintance Tyrion. Marsh thinks people are not fond of Stannis and most still see Tommen as Robert's son, even with the vicious rumors.

Oh, Tommen. Poor boy. Don't kill that boy either. Jon's retort to Marsh saying, though, that people complain is, he's like, yeah, well, folks complained about J.R. Mormont, too. And I'm like, yes, John, true, valid argument. But also, here's another argument. J.R. Mormont now dead by maybe the folks that complained about him?

John, put the things together. Yeah, this is like Marsh's last warning right Marsh isn't really the bad guy bad guy in a lot of this believe it or not like he's actually kind of the neutral zone and I dislike that the show translated him to that team but Marsh is kind of more the last hope to stop the coalition against John from forming in full he's trying to ambassador and he's trying to warn everyone or he's trying to warn John about what's coming to him. But John's blindly like, this is really wise counsel, but I don't think there's any other way. So I'm just going to forge ahead.

And Marsha's like, I'm telling you, make another way. Or again, John, hold, bring everyone to a room. Explain. This is what happens when the people die on the other side of the wall right anyway yeah like i agree with what you're saying about bone marsh i still think like i don't know i don't love that he's hates the wildlings so much but you know as we see in a moment when everyone goes to eat they're not eating in the common hall because it was burned by the wildlings. So they're eating in a cellar. And I'm like, I do get it. Like all of these people

literally just fought very hard and lost friends, literally fighting these people very, very recently. And all those wounds are very raw, and figuratively and john expects everyone to integrate because he fucking said so and i'm like no john it takes a long ass time for shit like this to work like there's a lot of other examples from history but instead i'm going to say look at pawnee and eagleton yep yeah and you know honestly I think more than that another reference we can make from Parks and Rec is uh you know that the Ice Town Clown

Ice Town costs Ice Clown his town crown oh my god hashtag Jon Snow that is the Jon Snow story actually yeah I know you're right also Ice Town yes Jon Snow's story, actually. Yeah, I know. You're right. Young boys giving command.

Also, Ice Town. Yes. And Ice Town. Yes. He does love Game of Thrones, that character. I know, I know. It's all coming together. Jon thanks Bowen for his counsel, sincerely,

and he asks him to burn the corpses and dismounts at the gate. Ed brings him a torch as he joins him in walking. It was a relief to see that horn burn, my lord, Ed said. Just last night I dreamt I was pissing off the wall when someone decided to give the horn a toot. Not that I'm complaining. It was better than my old dream, where Harma Dog's Head was feeding me to her pigs.

Harma's dead, John said. But not the pigs. The way they look at me, the way Slayer used to look at him. Not to say that the wildlings mean us harm, eh? We hacked their gods apart and made them burn the pieces. But we gave them onion soup. What's a god compared to a nice bowl of onion soup? If that's not a telling passage about this entire chapter, I don't know what is. And it's true. What is a god compared to a nice bowl of onion soup?

The people that burnt their gods, they did it for salvation it for salvation for food to live for sustenance and ed's pretty matter of fact he really says it how it is you know hey sure we killed their gods but we gave him food a bowl of soup ed's out here with a straight fact straight fire but not that fire oh my god john is thinking about the scent of food now, and he wishes his friends were there to share the company, not just to eat. He craves conversation with Sam, wine with Eamon, laughter with Grip and Toad. Grip. Grip. It's canon.

I've been saying that for, like, I don't know, weeks. Well, we canonized it, so. Yeah. I'm gonna say a take. I don't think it's that hot of a take. John did this to himself no shit he literally goes to the hall and he's like I want all this and then he gets to the hall and sees his friends

he's like nope guess I can't have it like John you can do these things it's just you're choosing not to for the wrong reasons there are good reasons not to but none of those are the reasons being supplied here. Yeah, he sent away his friends and now he's being weird with the rest of them.

So, John, he loves, I think, I almost wonder, does John like making his own problems? I don't know. John is a messy bitch and he loves drama. He does. John says, I'll take supper with my men for once and it's boiled beef and beets as ed informs him because dollars ed apparently always knows what is cooking in the kitchen and if that's not a mood that's not me then i don't know what is the men are eating in the

stone cellar below the armory since the free folk burnt the common hall and john comes in he watches men play at tiles and gren is mocking the lord of light john is like hey mocking another man's prayer is foul and dangerous and pip is like if the red god's offended let him strike me down but the tone is tense in the room and everyone begins to bring their complaints about melisandre to the forefront john says he won't have bad blood between the parties and pip mocks john a little bit saying a couple ridiculous things that all imply john is the big boss i get it and gren tries to police pip apologizing for his actions to john and asks john to eat with them but john says he cannot john wanted nothing more no he had to tell himself.

Those days are gone. The realization twisted in his belly like a knife. What does it mean? They had chosen him to rule. The wall was his and their lives were his as well. A lord may love the men that he commands, he could hear his father saying, but he cannot be a friend to them. One day he may need to sit in judgment on them or send them forth to die another day the lord commander

lied ed it's best seat to your supper i have work to finish yeah all right john it's happening he leaves the hall to the cold and sees Val gazing at the wall from her tower. She looks lonely, John thought. Lonely and lovely. John thinks that Val's resting bitch face isn't powerful enough because he says that Val would turn heads anywhere and then compares her to Ygritte's beauty, which is more particular. to Ygritte's beauty, which is more particular. And Val, though, is also a little more vicious and is not beloved by the men who have to watch her because she's always trying to escape. She's already tried three times

and she's killed men in trying to do so. And I'm just saying, I want the Arienne and Val meetup. I'm listening. I'll subscribe to your newsletter. I think that they have a lot to discuss about being locked in towers. Yeah, with their mouths. And attempting escapes. What?

With their mouths. Oh. What? Episode 69. Nice. Lonely and lovely and lethal, Jon Snow reflected. And I might have had her. Her and Winterfell and my, Jon Snow reflected. And I might have had her, her and Winterfell,

and my lord father's name. Instead, he had chosen a black cloak and a wall of ice. Instead, he had chosen honor, a bastard's sort of honor. So we've talked a lot about the Ygritte and Val comparisons against Daenerys, right? You guys have been here for that. If you take this paragraph and put it in the context of the possible endgame of thrones. Interesting. Oh, endgame of thrones. I mean, Daenerys is the lonely god, right? Daenerys is definitely lonely and lovely and lethal.

Yes. I think that it's the lonely and the lovely. I guess, yes, the lethal, of course. But the lonely is the part i guess yes the lethal of course but the lonely is the part that really strikes me about it that yes very much makes me think of denarius because i think that they what got to it in what the last two episodes of the show but it's something that as we see in the books denarius has been wrestling with since literally book three so maybe we should have been talking about this

in the show since like I don't know season three or four but what do I know what do I know anyway and the bastard's sort of honor interesting line uh huh

yep a bastard's honor I am the shield that guards the realms of men that must be more than a man's honor yeah because he had chosen honor and a bastard sort of honor but we see that part of what weighs on him as you were talking about the lady lannister stuff like it's a bastard sort of honor specifically because he's choosing this as opposed to taking winterfell yeah from his other siblings yeah absolutely i don't know i'm thinking about that and if he chooses what the starks over den. And that's how the end Game of Thrones, as you called it, comes to be a thing.

I don't know. Thinking too deep. No, no, for sure. He walks against the shadow of the wall and listens to the chains of the winch. He thinks he should be walking atop the wall and walks past the spot where Ygritte died, where Ghost had reappeared. He tastes blood in his mouth,

which makes him realize ghost must have killed that night as he thinks about it and he rejects that thought thinking he is a man not a wolf well well what does it mean what does it mean he knocks at cleitus's door below the rookery and cleitus invites him in for mulled wine. Clydus is old, but not that old, maybe 60 or so, and he seems young compared to Aemon. Jon drinks deeply to wash the taste of blood out of his mouth and he talks about Mance's death with Clydus, about Lightbringer and its flaming aura.

They toast to Stannis' magical sword and, to Stannis, Jon thinks the wine is bitter and Clydus tells him, His grace is not an easy man. Few are who wear a crown. To Stannis. Jon thinks the wine is bitter, and Clytus tells him, His grace is not an easy man. Few are who wear a crown. Many good men have been bad kings, Maester Aemon used to say. And some bad men have been good kings. He would know.

Aemon Targaryen had seen nine kings upon the throne. He had been a king's son, a king's a king's uncle damn yeah john tells clitus he read the passage amen left him in the jade compendium about azorahai and nisa nisa lightbringer was tempered in nisa nisa's blood and that he thrust the sword into a monster and the monster's blood boiled and smoked and dribbled. John says it's too bad Stannis' sword isn't actually Lightbringer, basically. And he thanks Clytus for the wine and off he and Ghost fuck. What?

Off they fuck. Not like fuck. God, Eliana. You're fucking furry. You're the one who said it like that. I just wanted to have a brief clitus appreciation moment i don't think i think clitus for obvious reasons gets overshadowed by maester amon maester amon is way older than clitus therefore more impressive because of that as john points out

but clitus is here providing some comfort too and i just want to point out that he's kind of chill, and I for some reason just get drawn to random ass characters. John then passes the armory and goes to his room, hangs up his sword belt, and he works his hands out of the gloves to light the candles. And he can't sleep, so he decides to look at maps and reads a letter from Dennis Malister over and over again. Then he writes two more letters, one each to Cotter Pike and one from Dennis Malister over and over again. Then he writes two more letters, one each to Cotter Pike and one to Dennis Malister,

and sends even more men. But he feels like he can't seem to write the right thing, and everything just sucks. The raven continues to watch him with its shrewd black eyes. My last friend, Jan thought ruefully. And I had best outlive you or you'll eat my face as well. Ghost did not count. Ghost was closer than a friend.

Ghost was part of him. Jan rose and climbed the steps to the narrow bed that had once been Donald Noyes. This is my lot, he realized as he undressed. From now until the end of my days what does it mean eliana what does it mean all of this paragraph there's so much goddamn ghost foreshadowing for john right now in ghosts there's so much doom surrounding this and of course from now until the end of my days too soon soon. What is, yeah. And the raven eating him.

The raven eating him. That's obviously the one that ate Jaor. That's true. I do kind of wonder, like, right? Like, is the bird actually going to eat a little bit of his face when he's dead? And then it'll be a scar in the way that, like, Lady Stoneheart comes back and she's a little bit decomposed, too. Maybe the scar was real, you know? I mean, he already has the one scar.

That's true. He's going to have a lot of scars. Yeah. And I'm going to just throw it out there, though, that you don't need to be a skin changer to feel like your dog is a part of you. No, you don't. You really don't. Anyway. Well, that was a chapter i'm uh i am happy at our choice to split these two chapters yeah 69 will be just john 3 there's a lot of foreshadowing in this chapter yeah absolutely holy crap it's like laden with it it's a little heavy-handed

i'm kind of like what are we going to talk about the whole rest of the book about the foreshadowing in these chapters because that's all there is that's true and i mean it still catches everyone by surprise when it happens right yeah but it that's what makes tell ourselves well guys as always thank you for listening to John 3 and a dance with dragons next week we're gonna be back with John 4 for episode 70

not as nice a little less nice and of course thanks for coming along with us if you want to keep track of when all those episodes come out, be sure to subscribe to us on social media. You can find us at Girls Gone Canon on Twitter, or maybe you have something to say.

Shoot us an email on girlsgonecanon at gmail.com. Yeah, make sure to subscribe to us on your favorite podcast platform. You can find us on Podbean, on Spotify, on Google Play, on Spotify, on Google Play, on iTunes, on Stitcher, on Acast, and on Overcast,

and on a lot of other podcasts too, so whatever. There's a bunch of them. I don't know them all. Yeah, there's a lot. Who knows what we're even on. But what we do know is what our Patreon episode is going to be this month for October.

Chloe and I are getting together to watch The Golden Compass, the other movie. I've actually never seen that movie before. So it'll be fun. Yeah, I told you I've never seen the movie. I didn't realize you hadn't seen it. Oh, shit. This is going to be great. Yeah, that's what I was saying.

We could do it as like a watch through because I've never seen it because it looked bad. And I was like, I really liked the books that I read. And this seems not at all like that in the same way that I have still never watched the Ella Enchanted movie, because I loved that book, Ella Enchanted. I read it till it fell apart. I read it over and over and over till it fell apart in my hands and the movie looked like it was going to let me down. Same with Avatar The Last Airbender. I'm never watching that. I would die. I'm excited about the live action Netflix

series. There's, I think, potential. Yeah. Television will save us, I guess. We'll see. We'll see. Save our stories. Definitely tune in to that Patreon episode. We will alert the press when it is out. Oh my god.

The press is going to just know. As always, I have been one of your hosts, Chloe. And I've been another one of your hosts, Eliana. Thank you for listening, you guys. Episode 69, goodbye. Nice.

Girls, out. Out.