Girls Gone Canon Cast - ASOIAF Episode 73 - ADWD Jon VII

Episode Date: November 22, 2019

Time is a flat circle: Jon takes a new set of recruits beyond the Wall to say their vows, despite the danger. When he returns to Castle Black, a message awaits him, rekindling un-brotherly temptation.  --- Eliana's twitter: https://twitter.com/arhythmetric Eliana's reddit account: https://www.reddit.com/user/glass_table_girl Eliana's blog: https://themanyfacedblog.wordpress.com/ Chloe's twitter: https://twitter.com/liesandarbor Chloe's blog: www.liesandarborgold.com Intro by Anton Langhage   

Hello and welcome to Girls Gone Canon, A Song of Ice and Fire, Episode 73, Jon Snow in A Dance with Dragons, Chapter 7. I am one of your hosts, Chloe. You might know me from the internet as Liza and Arbor on Twitter, Tumblr, or from LizaandArborGold.com where I publish new essays. And I am another one of your hosts, Eliana.

You might know me as GlassTableGirl on Reddit or on the Maester Monthly Podcast or as Arith twitter you know i love that sometimes you are always laughing on a take coming in and sometimes there's nothing for you to be laughing at and people are like what were they laughing at and they'll never know that's the beauty of the mystery you know that's the magic of editing baby no that's we gotta keep people guessing you know as they say in magic of editing, baby. We gotta keep people guessing, you know.

As they say in the Nancy Drew new television series commercial, girls love mystery. We just We love mystery. Yeah, we like being the mystery of what are we laughing at. Well, we're gonna hit John 7 today and take a break

next week like we've been doing with John last week of the month off. So fingers crossed on that. Take a little breather. Yes. Next week, we are going to take a break from John and express how thankful we are for A Song of Ice and Fire and the friends that we've made through it. We give thanks to all of you. We'll still have our His Dark Materials Season 1 episode

review for that week, but we will take a break from Jon. We'll be back the week after that, bringing you Jon 8 as we just dash to the end with Jon Snow. We're just running. We're actually gonna be almost halfway or so done here, right?

With A Dance of Dragons, Jon. Are we? He's got what? gonna be almost halfway or so done here yeah right with uh a dance of dragons john are we he's got what 13 chapters 13 a lucky fortuitous number yeah we might just finish him off oh my god if no one else does first i bet this is how george felt when he was writing john's chapter he's like i might just finish him off I might just do it George was probably just laughing the whole time like this foreshadowing as he writes it all backwards and he's like

I gotta write new chapters now let's just put a bunch of foreshadowing die he's like I really hope someone reads these books more than once or else it'll all have been for not yeah maybe they'll make a podcast maybe they will we didn't get a lot in emails or tweets of note so uh i take that as satisfactory our work was satisfactory last week thank you your work

was satisfactory too listeners we did get a comment though on itunes oh so becca prudy on itunes says that they are a sagittarius which is good to note oh the third head of the dragon we now have one person in the pool of candidates a drop within it or not a drop a spark it took a very long time too we there was someone else who said that they were Sagittarius once and clearly we forgot who they were I'm sorry you told us whoever you were in person you were our first choice

probably probably Becca's in the running too they are a strong second I assume their name's Becca could actually be Becca Prudy a strong second. I assume their name's Becca. Could actually be Becca Prudy. Who knows? A strong secondarius. Could be Prudy. Yes. Secondarius. Yes, exactly.

So let's jump into our lightning round and what we missed. Davos IV. Awaiting his death in the Wolf's Den, Wyman Manderly gives the big reveal to Davos. His court is a farce, and the North remembers. He wants Davos to bring back the North's young wolf, Rickon Stark. But where's Rickon Stark? Only a place the gods know.

Man, what an iconic chapter. Daenerys VI. It has been 26 days since a murder was committed on the streets of Irian, and Daenerys resigns herself to marrying his Dar Materials to continue that peace.

Oh my god. Melisandre. After gazing into her fires, Melisandre enlightens Jon that the Lord of Bones is more than meets the eye. Ay. Ay.

Ay. Reek 3. Serving Ramsay, Reek arrives eventually at Barrowton, where Barbary and Roose attempt to give him back his name. You gotta remember your name. Tyrion 8. A red priest tells Tyrion he's not the only one to seek the Mother of Dragons. Bran 3.

Bran continues to finesse his abilities as a seer and is given Weirwood Pace to see through the eyes of Winterfell's heart tree. Weirwood Paste? Weirwood Paste? Weirwood Paste. Weirwood. Unquote. Paste?

Jon 7. A Dance with Dragons. Jon faces what the brutality of war against the Free Folk has caused in the eyes of the gods. He brings home the living and dead after watching new recruits say their vows and reads a letter from Stannis Baratheon, the King of the Week. But all along, Arya is what rings in his ears. So we begin Jon 7. There's been dark skies and flurries for a week, and the haunted forests and the wall are spooky and beautiful and glimmering. But there's no movement beyond the ice and wind, was not reassuring john doesn't fear the living he fears

the dead especially you know with the language in this chapter describing the snow on the trees as being icy banners once again making that connection between the armies of the dead and the living yeah and what the dead ride for yeah for whom the dead bell tolls uh he commands ed to craft an escort of 10 men with dragonglass to leave within the hour with john heading them ed says some people might prefer that you stay and john smiles and he's like some people better not talk about it in front of me then good leadership they're gonna yeah they ride down the winch as the wind picks up and john People better not talk about it in front of me then. Good leadership. They're gonna.

Yep. They ride down the winch as the wind picks up, and John thinks of the ice dragon the old man told him of as a boy when the cold wind hits him. It's you, John. You're the ice dragon. It is. This is something that actually I was thinking about as I was reading through this chapter. They keep talking about ghosts as like a white shadow,

and I'm like, I get it, because that makes no sense. It's opposites. Like an ice dragon, or ice and fire. I get it. Love and hate could make- The wind just swaying, hitting the wall from time to time and cascading ice that looks like broken glass down the wall.

Glass, John mused, might be of use here. Castle Black needs its own glass gardens like the ones at Winterfell. We could grow vegetables even in the deep of winter. The best glass came from Myr, but a good clear pane was worth its weight in spice, and green-yellow glass would not work as well. What we need is gold. With enough coin, we could buy Prentiss glassblowers and graziers in Myr. Bring them north.

Offer them their freedom for teaching their art to some of our recruits. That would be the way to go about it. If we had the gold. Which we do not. That was Jon's thoughts. Thank you. He thinks a lot of things. He's a brooding little boy.

As Merry said when we had Maester Merion, he is the ultimate Byronic romantic hero, right? Just devastating. Some of these thoughts are really good from Jon. It shows his growth as a leader, his understanding of what skills will lead for survival for his people, and what is preventing them from obtaining both survival and raw supply to keep that survival. But also interesting that John's like, I'm going to buy some slaves from Mere and free them to work for me. It's kind of a little bit of a line that's being crossed with the whole savior thing.

And later when the free folk get on the trading ship, for example, and end up sold into slavery from hard home, that's pretty shitty. Some of the stuff the show didn't fully explore like this and it's very much so this idealism and thinking that it's the right way to go about things and kind of gives vibes to how he might justify danny her armies even um i don't know it was very it was definitely a call out i was like john that's not that's nice but what if you freed them and offered them a position and said there's work for them yeah i i agree i was like that's a interesting language i do think of course he means indentured servitude or indentured servants still not great and i'm like that's not awesome and it made me realize a way to contrast and the way that john and denenerys go towards changing things.

And I'm not saying one's better than the other. Context matters for it. But like, John is changing the Night's Watch, right? In many ways, and trying to make it more equitable to some extent, or more pragmatic, right? At least for the things that it needs to be. And slavery is not part of that. But the point is, what I'm trying to get at is like, John is the part of that but the point is what i'm trying

to get at is like john is the kind of person who's changing things from within the system right trying to be act as part of that system whereas denarius's approach is more about toppling systems in many ways um it might change when she gets to westeros. Right? But it's interesting. When the systems don't exactly topple so easily. Yeah. And then she realizes like, oh, wait, now we need new systems. Now there has to be some sort of system in place, which is what her Miranese arc is

exploring while Jon's is in a different way. So it makes a good contrast to one another. But then the dance with dragons. The two dragons? Those two. Other ones, old and young bright and dark or whatever the fuck else makoro says ghost bounced toward john ready to go on with the ranging ed saddles up the gray gelding for john when bowen marsh angrily confronts john about going north of the wall saying the men can go say their vows in the sept just as easily but the old gods live in

the wood and john says it's unfair to not let people say their vows to their gods especially after the free folk just had their culture cleansed from them just put it out there this is kind of a nice move you know like, like, have some fucking sympathy, Marsh. Yeah, I agree. I was just like, dude, what the hell? And as we see later on from some of the wildlings being like, yeah, we heard that everyone who went south of the wall and promised to convert anyway were burned.

So clearly, clearly that was bad. All right. Could use some good PR. Yeah. That's all I'm saying. Could use some good PR after you were all like trying to, you know, rip people's culture out. Anyways, and also the people who want to go north, it's interesting. They're kind of following, to some extent, Sam's example.

Right? Because a couple of them are from the Reach or Southern men who are like, hey, I want to convert. And that's why Marsh is all like, oh, they can't do that. They worship the new gods. And that's why John retorts and said, I do not tell men which god to worship. They were free to choose the seven or the red woman's lord of light. They chose the trees instead with all the peril that entails.

Marsden warns that the weeping man might still be out there who comes through in that uh melisandre chapter and that this is unwise and john agrees yeah it's unwise but it's still necessary the night's watch has existed for so long thousands of years of brotherhood and john argues the words of the watch matter that traditions are important he promises marsh the return is like, yeah, but will you be alive or dead? And Marsh also kind of pokes at him and says, you know, other seasoned rangers have also disappeared, like your uncle, Benjen. But John has ghosts, and he says he fears not.

He tells Bowen the wall is his, and off they fuck. Ghosts sniffs the ground as they form up to ride out and bounds into the woods to hunt although john is unsure of what he's hunting yeah i i really like how john was just out there right he was telling everyone you know i got something i got something that benjen didn't have i got something all those other rangers didn't have it's my wolf and then once they get to the other side, Ghost is like, peace the fuck out. You're on your own, dude.

John's like, I got nothing. And I'm just like, this inspires very, very little faith. John's working with, like, nothing. He's got a skeleton crew, no pun intended. He's got Ghost that, that like runs off at every

moment sucks i mean everything turns out fine but i was also just like good timing comedic timing terrible john you fool john has trust and faith though he has faith in ghosts that ghosts will come back so he moves the men along he sends tom barley corn to scout and big little and luke of longtown as well to the west and the east john trusts these men they're well seasoned like a steak he knows every single one's name each armored with obsidian did you see my tweet where i asked what what flavor the rangers are that george says are seasoned no i didn't well it's every time i read these books and george is like they were seasoned men i'm like what kind of seasoning it's that season or

are they all like cast iron pans that smoky seared taste that sounds good to me oh no i mean the really annoying thing where you stick your pan in and keep putting oil on it that's what i mean but adding food to that yeah which is what you're supposed to do right ideally unlike me fucking up my pants all the time oh my god anyways i've spoken about this before in john's chapters and you know how much he's like Ned and trying to get to know his men. But, like, this emphasis that Jon has each of their names on his heart and stuff, I remember, again, that scene from Ned's chapters. And, you know, we're already getting sad about Jon a little,

but what if we also got sad about Ned right now? All right, I'm gonna do this to us. Hooray! Yay! Yay! No, Ned Stark screamed, clawing for his sword. Jaime was already cantering off down the street as he heard Will shout. Men closed from both sides. Ned rode one down, cutting at phantoms in red cloaks who gave way before him.

Jory Cassell put his heels into his mount and charged. A steel shod hoof caught a Lannister guardsman in the face with a sickening crunch. A second man reeled away and for an instant, Jory was free. Will cursed as they pulled him off his dying horse, sword slashing in the rain that Ned galloped to him, bringing his longsword down on Trigger's helm. The jolt of impact made him grit his teeth. Trigger stumbled to his knees, his lion crest sheared in half, blood running down his face. Huard was hacking at the hands that had seized his bridle when a spear caught him in the belly.

Anyways, I don't really remember who Will and Huard are, but we all remember Jory, right? Of course. But, like, that John, he's the same as then. Remembering all these randos names. All these minor minor characters. Yeah. From like Horse to

Long whatever Little Big Little Tom Barleycorn Luke Longtown. They literally just said their names and I forgot them immediately. Oh my god you are not a very good leader. That's what we're learning. they're not my men uh 63 wildlings had come back to the wall with john from molestown yet only two were here now to say their vows rough crowd emmet rides at the head of the column telling john there was trouble at harden's tower which is affectionately called Harlet's Tower, where the

19 female free folk are staying. Three drunken men had tried to use Hardin's Tower as their own brothel, and were now in the ice cells, thinking very strongly about what they'd done. John suggests more guards, and Emmett's like, who's gonna guard them? Who watches

the Watchmen? Not a cast podcast does. Ha ha. We do a different HBO show. Yeah, we do a different HBO show. We do a good one. I'm just kidding. Watchmen's really good too.

They're both not Game of Thrones. So there's this line from Ygritte that Jon remembers in this moment that I guess I didn't think to address. I don't know. We didn't think to address back then when we read it. But it makes me wonder if this is about daenerys but that kind of makes it even more unnerving if it is and the line is egret saying a man can own a woman and a man can own a knife egret had told him once but no man can own both which of course i strongly like, stabby stabby stomach stab. Yeah, I was like, oh.

Sad. Interesting word. John tells him his plan. He means to open up Deep Lake, Sable Hall, and Long Barrow. All of them will be manned by free folk, with the watch officers in

place. He plans for longbarrow to be an all-female guard except for the commander and the steward and that the distances would definitely stop some of the mingling emmett's like oh what sucker's getting stuck with that shitty job and john's like haha you're the sucker you and ed it's you i love the description of what happens when Iron Emmet finds out it's described as a look of mixed horror and delight and obviously as we know Ned only felt dread when he was

offered to become Hand of the King it wasn't really an offer, Robert's like I'm commanding you, you have to do this now and how it's his responsibility it's just interesting to see how different people react to getting more responsibility and I just like the description of iron emmets it's fucking real both horror and delight oh oh i'm in charge sometimes at work i'm just like what what am i doing with all this power who put me in charge of these decisions and also i mean i don't know if

there's as much delight maybe i react more like Ed who's gonna be real upset Ed's gonna be like what me? one of my co-workers just started following us on twitter today and I'm like oh good this is good this could only get better could it? I don't know

I get you Ned and Ed I get it I would suggest that they give some power to the Magner of Thun and give him a castle I get you, Ned and Ed. I get it. Emmett suggests that they give some power to the Magner of Thun and give him a castle, but Jon can't trust him. Jon explains that the Thun aren't like the Free Folk. He doesn't require a man to kneel, but he needs them to obey. That's what makes the Karstark marriage so smart, right? Jon can't make the Thuns respect him unless he gives them agency of their own and a voice at the table right they want to have a voice at the table and john didn't want to go

the stannis route with everything but he's made so many choices he's backed into this corner so he's trying to decision his way out pretty much this entire end of the book and well he decisions his way out his way out of life. I pardon you from life. Well, I guess he gets pardoned from death, you know. Is that what resurrection technically is? If you think about it.

Only death can pay for life. Wow. And John died. That pays for his life. I don't think that's what that means, but I'm going to say it's what it means right this second. I analyze things things i'm smart evan thinks uh john will have trouble if he doesn't do something about the fens though and john thinks on all his problems and he's like well hallux causing trouble in the yard

the night forts restoration i have all these projects so many projects no teams to get it done no resources no resources no teamwork and collaboration between everyone to get it done so what's going on in john's chapters kind of uh makes me think we're going to see something a little like this down the line there's a lot of different parallels throughout a couple of arcs it throughout a song of ice and fire right like brendan b Fish has written on how the plot in Meereen with Dany is in many ways mirroring the political intrigue, right, of King's Landing,

especially in the beginning of the book, but it's on the other side of the world. I'm also in the credits section of this post. And we also spoke during Sansa's chapters about how her Vale chapters are basically a lot of that political intrigue that you're seeing in King's Landing and across all of Westeros, but in miniature. So Jon's chapters

and his difficulty with reconciling the free folk and the men of the Night's Watch, who all come from different places and cultures as well, right? They have different religions and some of them are straight up converting right now. Like that's an appetizer for another way that we're going to see this in the story with all the different westerosi right getting them to build trust with one another getting them to eventually build trust with the associate especially because some of them were just fighting a very brutal war with one another a lot of those wounds are still fresh from, like, the Lannisters, etc. And, I mean, switching sides to making these immediate and hasty alliances

is going to be difficult. It's great seeing a lot of these politics finally coming into play at the Wall. When you start a Game of Thrones, the Wall isn't a player, but Jon has kind of brought them into playership without, I don't know, the Wall asking for this, obviously. I never asked for this.

I never asked for this. Ygritte. Sansa. Daenerys. Arya. You can keep that. I was gonna... He thinks to Ygritte that he knows nothing. that's the thing oh thanks that's the thing

it's the thing he thought the thing i like that egret walks with him through this chapter right it's like her ghost is there with him while he does all these things and hopes that he's making a choice she would almost respect yeah doesn't have to like but at least a choice she can respect i feel like that's his meter and she's there she's rhythmically there in every step I just really like the way that you phrase that interpreted that and I think that is very much how we should see it she's the ghost haunting it

by the end of the chapter he thinks about the ghost in Winterfell but what about the ghost at the wall walking with him right now the wolf? she's not walking with him right now? The wolf? Not walking with him right now. Off he fucked, Chloe. Off he fucked.

So they continue past a stream. John tells them they're not far now. He's met with no response because everyone's probably just fucking cold. John can smell Tom barleycorn before he actually sees him. And he doesn't know if it's because the guy stinks or if it's because ghosts smelled him first that's interesting does he stink i've never heard of this description of tom barleycorn until now you know yeah i don't think he stinks maybe it's just ghost tom brings news of free folk in the grove some dead or asleep

most women a child a giant they have a fire burning and he calls them fools for that but let's break that down they're not fools they're desperate some of them are dead some barely moving they aren't lighting that fire for fun they're lighting it for survival yeah and it's not just that the fire as we know right that's why it was the old bear's ring of fire it keeps it keeps some enemies at bay right dead ones cold ones not the other kind of cold ones who are feeling the cold just ones that bring it john begins to command the men rory and pate go to the horses the rest of the men form a crescent as they go on foot he thinks i thinks, I have seven and ten against the nine, and four of mine are green boys, and no giants.

He thinks that if they take them unawares, they might have a chance as the sight of the weirwood comes up ahead of them. There are nine free folk and nine trees, by the way. I thought that was really interesting. We're going to talk about it in a second because i love this description each one had a face carved into it and no two faces were alike some were smiling some were screaming some were shouting at him in the deepening glow their eyes looked black but in daylight they would be blood red, John knew. Eyes like ghosts. The fire in the center of the grove was a small, sad thing.

Ashes and embers and a few broken branches burning slow and smoky. Even then, it had more life than the wildlings huddled near it. That's sad. Yeah, they're taking their strength, the last

bit of strength they have from the weirwood the free folk are just like the stark kids seek solace in their religion and the old gods in winterfell as they uh are away from it and home stricken sansa and the gods wouldn't clash of kings holds very strong to this the nauticast podcast is actually about to cover this chapter in just a couple weeks i'm really excited to hear what the ultra fan Brendan B. Fish has to say about it. You know, he's a very strong Sansa supporter. Very strongly noted, so.

It's chronicled. If you remember my essay on reddit.com. A historian. The Sansa A historian, yeah. But that's the direct comparison, right? The faces of the trees represent the free folk and the split in loyalties and people looking to Jon for leadership.

Some were screaming, some were shouting at him, some were smiling at him. Divided. I think that's really interesting. Thank you. Yeah. The faces. But as you said, all of them, like, taking their strength from it

and finding solace in their religion. And that kind of reminded me of, like, there's a line one of these men says later, right? These dying men, they're like, I don't know. It was cold and shitty. And we figured, you know, this is where our gods are. It was as good a place to die as any.

And in the context of Arya's storyline, right? That's very much what's going on with the House of Black and White. Yeah. Yeah. But I like this idea of the division. Jon enters the Free Folk's territory quietly, and a child wails and a woman gasps,

because by then the rangers are all surrounding them. I also kind of wonder if this scene and some of the imagery, right, of the Free Folk in there is supposed to kind of mirror the Game of Thrones prologue, right? Where each of them in a circle begin closing in on Waymar and they had originally found a group. I don't know that it is. Maybe there's only so many ways that you can phrase

what's happening, right? Yeah. Anyways. The giant wakes and roars at the steel and then Ghost bares his teeth and Jon has to reign everybody in. He's like we don't want battle just peace the giants roar shakes the leaves in the trees and he slams his

maul down and shakes the earth lightly and the free folk grab their arms and john fears all his loss until others talks him down in the old tongue saying that all right we all came to pray to the same god so they put their steel down. Two free folk are dead. One is so weak he would die in the next day. Six remaining free folk, though barely remaining, with the mother and child, two men, a wounded then and a horned foot who was frostbitten to the point of never walking again.

They all came together by chance, fleeing into the woods once stannis had broken their host all coming to the grove later on and that's what's so upsetting about this is not just the nine weirwoods and the nine free folk but this is what you did stannis by burning their gods this is what you've done because like you said what we just heard was them saying well we heard you guys burned everyone yeah they were like we heard you guys burned everyone. Yeah, they were like, we heard that it was basically a trap. So what was the point?

Our choice was that or this, which is why John thinks like, goddammit, Melisandre's got a lot to answer for with that pun, that stunt. Yeah, the people are weary of them for that reason, right? They came to the trees because the trees weren't going to burn them. And they heard rumor that the crows burned everyone that yielded. Yeah. That's a lot to answer for right there. Like, so many lives that could have been saved,

but now either A, terribly they are dead, or B, they're going to come back. It's going to be great. It's going to be awesome. It's fine's fine it's fine this is a great plan john gives all of them though his word as a commander of the night's watch and as ned stark's quote-unquote son that nothing's gonna hurt them right and he calls the men to bring up the horses. But first, they have to do the actual thing that they came here for, the whole reason they did this, like, crazy thing, which is to go see the bells. The last light of day was gone by then. The only light came from the stars above

and the faint red glow of the dying fire in the center of the grove, with their black hoods and thick black cobbles. The six might have been carved from shadow. Their voices rose together, small against the vastness of the night. Night gathers and now my watch begins, they said as thousands had said before them. Satin's voice was sweet as song, horse's horse, and halting Aaron's a nervous squeak. It shall not end until my death. May those deaths be long in coming. Jon Snow sank to one knee in the snow. Gods of my fathers, protect these men,

and Arya too, my little sister, wherever she might be. I pray you, let mounts find her and bring her safe to me. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children, the recruits promised, in voices that echoed back through years and centuries. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. Gods of the wood, grant me the strength to do the same, Jon Snow prayed silently. Give me the wisdom to know what must be done, and the courage to do it. I am the sword in the darkness said the six

and it seemed to john as though their voices were changing growing stronger more certain i am the watcher on the walls i am the fire that burns against the cold the light that brings the dawn the horn that wakes the sleepers the shield that guards the realms of men the shield that guards the realms of men. The shield that guards the realms of men. Oh, dramatic. That was like drama. John's a dramatic boy. He is. He's that Byronic hero. He's like, here's my inner monologue. I'm sad. And damned.

And damned. I'm never gonna let it go. He's never gonna live it down. He really won't. He's gonna die. I shall take no wife hold no lands father no children the recruits promised in voices that echoed back through years and centuries spooky tingly in front of the weirwood yeah i mean all those memories oh my god i meant because you know the weirwood. I meant because of, you know, the weirwood.net, Eliana. Thank you.

Thank you for that. I'm glad that you're here. Is in front of my weirwood paste the same as saying in front of my salad? Questions that I have. These are the important ass-off questions. Especially when your weirwood paste has the same color as the house colors of your salad. Wait. No, I fucked that up. The opposite. Listen, something about

Jojen. Something something Jojen Reed. Green. Sigil. I tried. This is it. This is the your salad wait no i fucked that up the opposite listen something about jojen something something jojen reed green sigil i tried this is it this is the analysis i knew what you were saying though i got you i get you you and i were like ghost and john you know i snap word relation game for dissociation yes that one so i didn't notice that till now they're inside of the gods and the weirwood voices that echoed back through years and centuries it's great to compare this chapter to when john took his vows back in a game of thrones john 6 they said the words together as the last light faded in the west and gray day became black night hear my words and bear witness to my vow they recited their voices filling the twilight grove night gathers and now my watch begins it shall not end until my death i shall take no wife

hold no lands father no children you guys know the fucking vows. The woods fell silent. You knelt as boys, Bowen Marsh intoned solemnly. Rise now as men of the Night's Watch. It is interesting. I feel like you have a different thing that you want to say, but it's only sinking in now that it was Bowen Marsh, right, who took Jon all the way out there and is the one who's telling him don't do it.

You don't have to do it, right? Yeah. It is interesting that his opposition is kind of contrasted here. Even the language about what type of day it is and the light fading into the west,

it all kind of tracks. So it's a nice little throwback. This is how far John has come in the watch. Yeah. So it's a nice little throwback. This is how far Jon has come in the Watch. Yeah, and it's like that next generation, right? Of Men of the Night's Watch taking those vows because as he stands here now, watching them take their vows and not taking it with them, he's doing sort of his own prayer and pledge or plea

to the old gods and he's like, protect them, watch over them. Anyway, they don't. Yep, they sure don't. They sure don't. Jon tells them, though, to rise now as men of the Night's Watch. And now the winds were rising. The winds of winter

are rising. And it's time to get the fuck out. Oh my god. The giant takes forever pacing wise. The other men are slow as well since they're like barely alive and the dead bodies are slowing them too. Emmett doesn't understand why they kept

the dead and John's like I have a use for them. Okay. I thought we were quoting Emmett for a second. Every day in this book. Only faint patches of stars remain in the sky no moon so they trot slowly home under the light of the thief the red wanderer you might remember the thief from uh egret when she says the best time to steal a woman is when it's in the moon made but not sure it was trying to forewarn them of giants in this moment and how big and slow they're being. Yeah, there's a lot of women and girls, as we discussed last episode, right, who are stealing away right now.

Fleeing some marriages. Yes. And we'll talk a little bit about this in a bit. So the giant, though, he's like big. He's bigger than Mag. So that's pretty fucking big mag was pretty mighty you know mag the mighty john puts leathers he's like all right you're the giant's buddy now we have a buddy system and it's you because you're the only one who speaks his language

and then john sends the rest of the now's watchmen to get their wounds tended to. He returns to the chamber and he's greeted by a scroll wrapped with a wax seal. It's a stag's head with a flaming heart. He's surprised to see it, but deep down inside, Jon has been waiting for this one new message. I caught that. She's been waiting for this DM for so long. He checks his phone every night. He's like, oh, has Stannis texted me back yet?

Oh my god. Red. Left on red for so long uh the letter reads that stannis has taken deepwood mott the mountain clans joined him flint nori wool little all of them unexpected help from aliceane mormont the she-bear the grayjoy's longships burned and taken i i loved this little detail in the letter it says her crew slain or surrendered which is like it's asha that tells us that's who it was it could have been anyone of the gray joys but that's who it was the girl it it took me a moment to like reread that it was like oh i thought that

was really clever yeah um and then of course there's the line the captains knights notable warriors and others of high birth we shall ransom or make other use of the rest i mean to hang oh he's so charming that stannis baratheon john yeah john's like i'm gonna take a screenshot that's basically what he does he like leaves the letter out he's like oh no it got rolled up again john knows that the Watch can't take any part in this, but he feels a big sense of satisfaction as Stannis

goes on. More Northmen have been joining Stannis daily. People from the Wolfswood, villagers who have escaped the Ironmen, men from the Hornwoods, the Kerwins, the Tallerhearts. We are 5,000 strong as I write, our numbers swelling every day. And word has come to us that Roose Bolton moves forward toward Winterfell with all his power,

there to wed his bastard to your half-sister. He must not be allowed to restore the castle to its former strength. We march against him. Arnulf Karstark and Mors Umber will join us. I will save your sister if I can, and find a better match for her than Ramsay Snow. You and your brothers must hold the wall until I can return. It was signed in a different hand. Done in the light of the Lord, under the sign and seal of Stannis of House Baratheon, the First of His Name, the andals the roinar and the first men lord of the seven kingdoms and protector of the

realm holy titles batman um stannis here like this is probably him at his most likable right he's almost gracious he's winning it's when he loses that Stannis becomes a little more unbearable. Right now he's victorious. He's righteous. He's taking the North and winning the North, and he's doing it by putting some hard work in, which is actually a little impressive. Good for you, Stannis. It does remind me a little bit of how his downfall will be

when he loses all of this sometime. That's going to be really rough to watch. It reminds me of this quote from A game of thrones danny six she would not weep she decided she would not shiver with fear the usurper has woken the dragon now she told herself makes me think that we're going to see some of these behaviors between the two characters between stannis and danny eventually yeah and i mean like, same thing, right? When she has some of those victories, we actually kind of saw it already,

right, in Essos. People flocked to her and they joined her cause even though they had been pledged or whatever to someone else. And we'll see that definitely in her storyline as we're seeing it with Stannis' right now. Jon tries to imagine a battle on

winterfell though with no stark i feel like this is such a nod to a stark civil war idea right and because we might have the opposite problem later too many starts in winterfell versus not enough yeah many starks too many starts jumping on the bed i'm in the no civil war camp i think we've talked about this before but i'm in the there's not going to be a civil war camp thing for winterfell they don't have enough time and they do know it's important and sansa won't i don't think sansa will come full attack of john's king in the north she'll be happy to be home yeah i think there will be tension yeah but not an actual civil war there'll be like we're about to have maybe a war and then everyone's gonna be like wait no as you said they're gonna be like we don't have time for

this we have only two more books and we gotta wrap it up everyone if the show uh allegedly if their creative choice in the show of saying you know like sansa you're really the lady of the north you know i don't want this like they chose me i have to serve if that's a thing in the books and i'm sure it'll be written out well enough yeah we'll figure it we'll see one day maybe i mean the winds of winter are rising as john pointed out i did really love the wording though of the castle is a shell not winterfell but the ghost of winterfell i was like whoa i know that phrase i did too that's that's uh like that chapter that's from that other pov that we did yeah and i thought that was interesting because like everyone kind of always assumes right that the ghost in winterfell is is the hooded man or it means that but like based on

this language in john's chapter and how he's talking about winterfell itself like being a ghost right it's the shell of house stark it's not a home for them anymore it's not their home if they're not in it if it's full of all these bad memories and and all those people who are doing weird things in there right like how ruse bolton must not be allowed to restore it but again ramsay snow avenged the red wedding and therefore i mean i yeah i so hi so therefore um but yeah like they're all right now trying to figure out who they are they're all kind of ghosts of themselves but not actually they're all kind of pretending to be different people right now and they're all gonna come back at some point regain their stark selves

because john's about to actually be in ghosts at some point, probably, because he's going to be dead. And like, yeah, the ghost in Winterfell, you know, if you reread that chapter, a ghost in Winterfell. Theon himself is a shell of his former self. And eventually he finds Theon again. And as we see, it's a weird place now, Winterfell. It's a topsy-turvy world where people are pushing each other off of walls. People are killing their cousins. And you're like, what the hell is going on here? And fake Arya. That's happening too.

So I would actually, I'm going to argue. I'm going to get controversial and argue with you. I know this is the best part of the whole show. I would say Jon's not the ghost of winterfell yet but i would say when later when he's ruling as king he likely is and i would say the bigger ghost of winterfell really is liana as far as ghosts that are causing all of this activity i think it's like all multiple things it's like because he's not being a stark right now right none of them are being Starks.

Right, and the closest he'll ever get to be to a Stark is if and when he is King of the North, but I think in the end he's the Ghost of Winterfell in the end because he doesn't get to belong there. He's caught between the two worlds, right? He has unfinished business. He's caught between the two worlds and is a ghost,

but yeah. There's also like this other idea that I think of, especially in this idea of the ghost of Winterfell of it just like as a manifestation in general, right? Of the Stark family as it at first in its glory, this great like homey place and then shattered and with the family, you know, all split apart. And then later on on they rebuild it and they try and make it a family again or something. Yeah. But it's still a little broken. Aw. But anyway. Like Lilo and Stitch. Yes.

Aw. Aw. Broken. Still good. Yeah. Still good. Yes. Yes.

It's exactly like that. Like Bran says. It's not, uh, it's just broken. Like Like Bran says, it's not, it's just broken, like me. Yeah. It's not gone. But still good. Still good. Yeah, still good.

Still good. He wonders how many men, he wonders how many men, I can't even talk. He wonders how many men- I can't even talk. He wonders how many men Crowfood and Karstark will bring. Thinking of where the armies are split across the north, he knows the greatest strength of House Umber died south with Rob. And he also knows that- Him.

He also knows Winterfell gives an advantage to anyone who holds it. And he thinks on how another king, Stannis' brother, Robert, would have acted in this scenario. I thought this was interesting. He's thinking like a king, or like several kings here, thinking what he would do, thinking what Stannis would do, what Robert would do. I think we're pretty aligned he's going to get

to be king, obviously, at some point. So he's taking all these burdens on for his own tiny realm at the Wall and looking out for the North when no one else is. And, of course, when he shouldn't be. Yeah, he really shouldn't be. I will say he's not exactly right. Winterfell does not give an advantage to whoever holds it.

Again, Exhibit A, Theon Greyjoy. What a disadvantage for him. Ruined his entire life. What? Uh, GG. Jon thinks that Robert would have secured the castle immediately with marches and midnight rides, as he, you know, likes to do. And Stannis, though, he's not so bold. He's a strong commander, but his armies are a mix of the clansmen and tired southern soldiers who are like oh my god

i hate the snow probably and northerners who probably also are like i hate the snow some people like snow and i'm just like i don't get it as winter comes here and do you like the snow i love the snow even the shoveling and all the other shit that goes along with it yeah i mean i don't have to do much of it. I only do a little bit. But when you did, I don't know. It was even fine then. I'm not a baby. Jon thinks that Santa should move on Winterfell soon, or

not do it at all. He knows he shouldn't advise this king, though, and he looks at the line about Arya once more, and the addendum to it, that he's like, if I can, also I'm gonna find her a better husband no my sister should be a virgin forever dresser and holy flowers and water john screams i'm just kidding he didn't scream that that's like some ti shit relevant oh my god yeah he doesn't he doesn't think that um

i mean it's in the original outline it does remind me of ned though of ned telling sanza i'll find you a better husband for you oh yeah a little bit remember yeah yeah he goes on to think the further and he's like what if aria wasn't even there what if melisandre was right that she escaped and he doesn't know how aria would have escaped because yeah she's ferocious but she's nothing but a young girl and ruse would not be careless with her ha ha ha ha the irony that ruse had already lost her once yep ha ha ha i will tell you how aria escaped many times just not at this time yeah she escaped way past then and that's how she's avoided this phase well she's straight chilling outside right now she's like death and shit she's out she's like she's like i'm running

my own weirwood grove yeah for the hospice over here thanks big bro you know he thinks what if bolton didn't have my sister at all so close to the truth and thinks that the wedding could be a trap for stannis also likely close to the truth but what about a trap for me john should have thought traitor sign eddard had never trusted ruse although he'd never complained about him wouldn't be the first wedding trap bolton kind of pulled off right and it is a trap i mean inviting them to the wedding that's plain to see like if they show up it wouldn't go well for them who the fuck would accept a wedding invitation from ruse bolton that's true or ramsey yeah they just have to be like um sure we'll come along but we all get to hold on to our we're all gonna hold on to our weapons

and also everyone's sober oh a dry wedding driest wedding i know? No one likes a dry ride at the wedding. So then Jon thinks about the dying girl again on her grey horse and then he remembers Mance Rayder, who he dispatched to Winterfell with six fear wives, if you'll all remember. Ed smuggled them from Molestown for Mance. They're young and pretty and ferocious girls

and Jon could barely trust the Oathbreaker slash churn cloak but he does admire him and thinks he would try his very best he trusts melisandre even less all to save my sister but the men of the night's watch have no sisters when john had been a boy at winterfell his hero had been the young dragon the boy king who conquered dorne at the age of 14 despite his bastard birth or perhaps because of it john had dreamed of leading men to glory just as king darren had of growing up to be a conqueror now he was a man grown and the wall was his yet all he had were doubts he could not even

seem to conquer those damn bummer big. Like, you're not alone, Sean. Isn't that what growing up is? Being like, I used to have dreams. Talk about coming of age. Absolutely. That's how I felt. I was like, ah, to be young. To be 15, 16 again. To be 15 and 16 and thinking, oh, I don't think I'll be a conqueror anymore.

Yeah, and I mean, maybe the ice zombies will just, like, go away. Fingers crossed. Yeah, and so he's just gonna date a conqueror, right? Aww. Opposites anymore yeah and i mean maybe the ice zombies will just like go away fingers crossed yeah and so he's just gonna data conquer right oh opposites attract keep couple of light oh god um yeah so that that is where this chapter ends with john doubting you know, another dramatic note. As he do. Damned. And damned. Never gonna let it go.

And so earlier in this chapter, we were talking about the consolation of the thief. And I think here, right, it's because Jon's thinking about stealing a girl. It's not Ygritte, but his sister. Oh my god. Arya. I thought that was out of the outline. I like how you know what I'm referencing with his sister. I know everything you think.

It's really scary and uncanny. But in terms of just language in this story though, John Wright has resigned himself to the idea that he has no blood brothers left. He's like, well, Rob's dead and he thinks that Rickon and Bran are also dead, but one of his not blood brothers, Sam, Rob's dead. And he thinks that Rickon and Bran are also dead.

But one of his not-blood brothers, Sam, knows that this is untrue. Anyway. Jon, like, he feels safer, I think, in a way, in his bastardy, knowing that Rob and Rickon and Bran are dead. He's like, now I can never betray them. I mean, he still feels some guilt about it, remembering Rob and, like, the way that they used to play right about like being darren and other heroes yeah being darren the young dragon or amen the dragon knight or the lord of winterfell oh yeah and all that yeah and he feels some guilt but at the same time

he's like it's all right now i can never betray rob because he's dead and i have these new brothers now and i know all their names and i trust them all with my life they're my new family so the conflict like in dance becomes not a choice necessarily just between john's like families of the wall and the starks which is something that we keep reiterating because it's going to become a choice of the Starks or the Targaryens for Jon. But it's Jon choosing between instead his brothers or his sisters. How can he be loyal to both? And at first he thought he could be loyal to both by choosing loyalty to his brothers. He was like, loophole, Stannis, I did it.

Amazing, good job, me. Safeguarding Winterfell for sanza and and i'm keeping my vows and staying as a brother but then a wild card got thrown into this whole mix with aria being wed to ramsey so now he's just like shit what do i do how can how can i feel two things at once to quote the ya novel twitter account you're a targaryen and you're a stark john um no that's not the problem here but it will be someday someday um i yeah i think it's interesting that the sisters are more of the problem right rickon doesn't threaten any of john's bastard claim which is barely there rickon's like five now at most bran is still young and he's off

being a tree so we know his ending will take some time and journeying and won't come about till the very end that's why they call it an ending and sansa and aria are those big wild cards right like that's what's going to mess with Jon's rulership the most, absolutely. Not Bran, not Rickon, not Robb's dead ghost of him that makes him doubt himself. It's Arya and Sansa. And that partially has to do with how the system of Westeros is set up, right? I discussed this with Matt, aka Geomagician, who joined us for a Jon chapter long, long, long, long ago, back when Jon was first taking his vows. And we were talking about

how a lot of the POVs, right, they follow people who don't structurally have power, and that's Jon. That's a lot of the women and girl POVs. That's why there's that tension there, because both of them are frequently disenfranchised within the Westerosi system. Yeah. Well, I guess I want to talk about how Jon idolizes the young dragon. Jon's idolization of Daeron the young

dragon, there aren't perfect parallels, but there's enough that we should look at this in reading the story right darren was agon the third's first son and heir agon the third was shrouded in a kind of a cloud of doom and depression right i mean he saw his mom eaten up by a dragon so much like rhaegar rhaegar kind of was brought into this world under a cloud of doom darren's uncle was the hand of the king viserys he goes on to conquer dorn within a couple of years of setting out age 14 he stays to eliminate rebels and traitors and his cousin amon almost

dies trying to protect him from an assassination attempt the dornish small folk rise up darren goes back down to quell it he attempts to meet with the Dornish under a peace treaty, but they assassinate him. He's succeeded by Baelor, his religious relative, and then the point is he dies. The point is Darren dies. He dies. Jon dies. Like, soon.

Great. Awesome. The point is he dies. So maybe Jon should not be worshipping Darren the Young Dragon, is all I'm saying. Yeah. No, he does. So maybe Jon should not be worshipping Daeron the young dragon, is all I'm saying. Yeah, no, he shouldn't. But that's part of the thing, right? That's where we see that Jon is still so young.

He would have, I guess, theoretically, he was supposed to be what, close to his 20s or in his early 20s had the five-year jump happened. But, I mean, that's still a time when people growth is ever ever happening right this shows how young he was right that he had those childish fantasies of like yeah i'm gonna idolize a really like cool great fighter who died young yeah yeah except

that's what it's about there's like a there's a very fruitful line in hamilton the musical that's uh first you start off with winning was easy young man governing is harder but also like living was easy young man dying is harder or something and it's so good and that's like there's a lot of this coming in for john he's learning what life and death is really all about and what ruling a people is and commanding a people actually means he's seeing the toll it takes as the wildlings you know die in the weirwood grove he's seeing what it's taken for these people to hold on to their freedom and what freedom really means to them he understands that

he respects that i mean yeah fucking egret doesn't just like implant that sense of freedom into you that all of a sudden now you get it but he has more empathy to understand them and understand what it means so i'm gonna say something very strange and crazy here right okay so john idolizes and very much respects looks up to darren the young dragon who did all the things that you said and died young conquered dorn briefly and then then was assassinated but those assassins ended up being forgiven is darren the young dragon who did all this conquering etc died young denarius and is that i was thinking like soon i mean absolutely he's a conqueror well that's part of what he's so drawn to in her maybe well because the whole time we've been sitting here talking about it i just thought darren's such a dummy like the only reason he went to

doran was for his pride these people have lived without the Targaryens ruling them in Dorne for so long, and the only reason he went there was pride, because no Targaryen had done it yet. That's the only reason he went there and did it. He just wanted them to bend to the rule, and obviously he was trying to send diplomatic people there, and it turned bloody

very early on, and it's like, why? Yeah, and I mean, for Daenerys, it's a bit of pride, but also not. Yeah, I mean, hers is different. Like, they literally sent Quentyn to, like, try and get her to join the cause. Like, she thinks that they are already thrown in, right? She doesn't know that there's also another wild card

in the mix with Faegon. All these wild cards. Yes, absolutely. Some twists. Truly. Yeah, it's definitely something that's pointing toward his future of liking conquerors. Like we talked about last episode with that smell

of fire and smoke, you know, that came along and how that's what Daenerys is going to smell like. She's going to smell like blood and smoke. Fire and smoke. That's going to be interesting. Yeah, he's going to smell and he's going to smell like blood and smoke, fire and smoke. That's going to be interesting. Yeah, he's going to smell and he's going to be like, what is this feeling that I'm feeling? We're not even going to get Daenerys in this book, Eliana. He dies at the end.

That's true. They're not going to see each other. Oh my gosh. That's not true. She sees him in her dreams. That's true. She does. She hears a wolf somewhere off in the distance.

And she dreams of a young, beautiful lover. It's him. She doesn a wolf somewhere off in the distance. And she dreams of a young beautiful lover. It's him. She doesn't know, but it's him. Well guys, thanks so much for listening to Jon 7 in A Dance With Dragons. As always, make sure you're subscribed to us on podcast platforms. That is where we will upload new episodes

every Friday, except for the last Friday of the month for Jon. Soon we will be done. We've got, what, like five episodes left? Something like that. Six? Five? Something around there. Can't wait.

We will move on to a new POV and miss Jon terribly, but come back to him hopefully when the Winds of Winter is out someday. So subscribe to us on podcast platforms to hear those episodes, which are Spotify, Google Play, iTunes, Podbean, and Acast and Stitcher and a bunch of other platforms you might see our RSS feed up on. And of course, maybe you have something to say in response to this chapter or any of the other chapters. Or, you know, of course, to keep up with when those releases come out on all those platforms, you could send us a tweet or follow us on Girls Gone Canon, C-A-N-O-N

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Patrons $5 and up can get that episode. It is a video episode where we drink wine and talk about why the movie did not hit your dream goals for a Golden Compass movie. This month, we have talked about doing something extra new for Song of Ice and Fire patrons, and you will be getting an episode by the end of November about House

Valerian. Yes. So as you all know, House of the Dragon has been announced, but we were like, let's talk about one of the wings of the House of the Dragon, House Valerian, closely tied to the Targaryens. So for everyone who is subscribed at $5 and up on our Patreon, they will get that episode. But again, we have one for the Golden Compass, and we are currently watching and responding to the His Dark Materials BBC slash HBO show. There's a lot of things that surprisingly are very similar to the movie.

Yeah, a lot. So check that out at our Patreon. That's patreon.com slash girlsgonecanon. And as always, I have been one of your hosts, Chloe. And I've been another one of your hosts, Eliana. Bye, guys. Bye.