Girls Gone Canon Cast - ASOIAF Episode 86 - ASOS Jaime VII

Episode Date: April 10, 2020

When Jaime returns to King's Landing, his king is dead, the city is changed — and so is he. --- Eliana's twitter: https://twitter.com/arhythmetric Eliana's reddit account: https://www.reddit.com/user/glass_table_girl Eliana's blog: https://themanyfacedblog.wordpress.com/ Chloe's twitter: https://twitter.com/liesandarbor Chloe's blog: www.liesandarborgold.com  Intro by Anton Langhage

Hello, and welcome to Girls Gone Canon, A Song of Ice and Fire, episode 86, Jamie Lannister in A Storm of Swords, chapter 7. I am one of your hosts, Chloe. You might know me from the internet as Liza Narber on Twitter or LizaNarberGold.com. And I am another one of your hosts, Eliana. You might know me as GlassTableGirl on Reddit on the Maester Monthly podcast. Maybe you know me as Arithmetric on Twitter. on Reddit on the Maester Monthly Podcast. Maybe you know me as Arithmetric on Twitter. Hello, hello, gang. How are we doing? I hope everyone is well. We are back with another exciting, thrilling chapter where Jamie finally returns to King's Landing. Yeah, turns out that happens now.

Yeah, I actually I'm really excited for next episode. I'm excited for this episode. Don't don't let me write it off yet. But I really like for next episode. I'm excited for this episode. Don't let me write it off yet. But I really like the next episode. It's one of my favorite chapters. Interesting. All of them are bangers, like, so far. I think the next one gets overlooked because it's like, I think it's a lot of info dump of like, oh, this is what's happening.

And these things are going on. And Jamie has to do this. But I just feel like everything it leads to is so good. And it's just such a full chapter. So we'll have a good time next week. But this week, we have a lot to talk about. Yes. So beyond just our Jamie read through, there's a lot of other great stuff going on in the ASOF community right now in case you know you needed things to listen to during this time of isolation. Yes, our friends over at History of Westeros have been doing Valar Rereadus. All men and women must read, right? Yes. And Jeff actually from Nauticast, I think was just on a History of Westeros episode talking about Barristan. Yeah.

And also another one of our friends, Joe Buckley from Isle of Faces, if you'll all remember, has a great Scraps and Scrolls series that he's doing. And he talks about things that didn't actually make it into the Valar Ruridus from the notes. Because as you all know, Joe Buckley has been a longtime collaborator at History of Westeros. I think it's so funny that he acts like we were around before. I was listening to and reading Joe Buckley's content even before I started

making content. Even before I started writing things, I'm like, Joe, you're the long time person. Looking for a quick summary, Joe Buckley wrote the Tower of the Hand summary that I probably read. Exactly. And I'm like, I don't understand. Yeah, it cracks me up.

But he is great. We have to get him on in a while. We have to talk about that. We'll talk about that offline. But he also has a fun series. I think I'm going to be on it, actually, next month or something. But he's doing this quizzo thing. Oh, my God.

It's very funny. He's doing this quizzo thing where you god it's very funny he's doing this quizzo thing where someone guess you guess which point of view has the opening chapter line that he reads so like you'd read like his hand burned and i'd be like oh that's uh this is it's a jamie chapter you know but i think i'm coming on for feast so we'll see how good i do. I think we're going to have a lot of laughter, which Joe Buckley and I do together. Lots of laughter. Yes. And another thing that you actually were on recently,

this past Saturday, was a Quarren stream on Joe Magician's YouTube channel. Yes, we talked about House Dane. It was very exciting. I had a blast, actually. We did have fun. We actually, I think I moved him on some of my feelings of House Dane

and he moved me on some of his kind of canons and thoughts, if you will. So it was a blast. You could check that out over on his YouTube channel at The Joe Magician. The Professor Dr. Joe Magician,

as I call him. And weekend before that, he had our friend Poor Quinton at Booth from Nauticast on to discuss Euron. So I'm excited to see what he has in store for us this week. I think he's doing one. This is for public. It's Friday. So tomorrow, Saturday, he'll be doing another stream. Yes.

And yeah, that topic is TBd um but also another thing uh joe magician and i aka matt as you all know have a podcast called mr monthly uh with some of the other mods of the song of ice and fire subreddit and as usual we were joined by michael aka bookshelf stud on a mr monthly and that's still impending we had technical difficulties and uh I'm working through them lots of great yeah lots of sweat lots of tears mostly on my end um everybody that's how I fucking feel uh it was like good it was a good episode but technical difficulties and that's just how life is sometimes man sometimes you record the podcast and sometimes it records you you know actually though that's actually kind of what it would be better if it recorded me that would actually make my life easier if it did that

radio westeros just put out an episode on chat which kind of sounds crazy but they actually made some really interesting points so so I really think you guys should check it out. There's a new podcast. I'm very excited about this one. The Learned Hands Podcast. Proud patrons and buddies of ours, Mary and Clint. They started this.

They are two real-world attorneys who explore legal and ethical dilemmas in A Song of Ice and Fire. They are the official podcast of the Westerosi Bar Association. I consider myself lucky to know them for sure. I'm ever in trouble. They're going to be my lawyer. Yeah.

Just in case you get caught with sour leaf on you, you know, and Masha Heddle's not around to plant it on. Exactly. But only in Westeros, you know. Nauticast is doing live streams every Monday, by the way, and you guys should check those out. They are happening at 8.30pm. And then lastly, our friend GrayArea is interestingly doing something a little different. Seems fun. And is making Tiger King content. I've been hearing from a lot of people that Tiger King is wild,

and they're like, wow, it's like Game of Thrones, but not. Sounds wild. You're going to watch it, and then you're going to tell me about it, and I'm not going to watch it. That's what we're going to do. Yes. Eventually, yeah, some of my friends and I are planning on doing some sort of, as you all know, maybe you've checked it out,

there's a Netflix party attachment or extension that you can use now where you can like watch something at the same time on netflix with some of your friends and like chat yes that's smart that would be fun but i was just thinking about doing that with some buddies so maybe not that but i'll leave that to you you know there are other shows gray area just put out another video that's like what you should be watching right now other things on tv to get you through the uh isolation so maybe i'll watch that and figure out some stuff grace always got really good recommendations of other media and shows yeah absolutely so along with that some other

things that are going on things that people have sent us. We have emails and tweets of note. First, I want to say quickly, Chloe, you were right. It was Brian of Farce, and we have been corrected by Jimmy. It was Brian of Farce who called out that line a few weeks ago, and I want to give that credit where it's due. And in the meantime, we have this email from our friend Pete, who says, Hi, hi girls last episode you

had mentioned in jamie's dream section that sir jamie does fear the dead lord eddard but i disagree jamie has always looked up to the finest swordsman in the realm sir arthur dane as well as the deadliest of the seven knights allegedly killed in single combat with Lord Eddard Stark. Sure, Jaime can come to reason that a momentary flash of sunlight of a blade could have dazzled a loose rock on their foot, or a twisted ankle could have been the real doom of his boyhood hero to the savage Northmen Lord Stark. It's so unsettling to Jaime because Ned does not participate in tourney, so he can't see him move and strike, so it makes no real scene of how it was that ned walked away and arthur did not jamie's dream fear is kind of like the universal dream of you're back in the old high school and you're underdressed and haven't studied for the big

exam actually literally though that is literally jamie's dream he's naked yes only to wake up and tell ourselves i've been out of high school for years, Ned. And the corollary to that is Ned is dead. Hmm. Thanks, Pete, for sending us an email. It actually, it's funny you say that because it does remind me. My mom, like, one time she saw her nemesis, you know, from high school. And, of course, the nemesis did not age as well as they had been in young life. Right?

It was like the cheerleader was not as cheerleading anymore you know the kind of cliche thing and she was just like astounded and i wonder if that's how jamie feels but like about ned being dead you know like wow and now you're dead i think so just a little because that was something that he could nurse and that grievance yeah yeah and i don't think that he's not afraid of him i just really maybe it's just hard for me to contemplate it i guess when you frame it that way against he killed arthur dane yeah sure he could be afraid of him physically but i think it's a good point and argument that pete makes but as as you said like what we see from jamie's psychology

is he's more afraid of ned's judgment than anything else because Ned has sort of become a stand-in for the judgment that all the rest of the realm layers upon him. I feel like, not a cast just covered this in their Catelyn episode this week about how Catelyn kind of projects herself, and many of the

characters project themselves, into those different members of the Seven, and it feels like Jamie, when he thinks of the seven and it feels like jamie when he thinks of the father what face do you think he sees next to his father's like he probably sees ned's as well i think the only thing jamie's ever excelled at is sword play is you know fighting and being a deadly warrior or whatever i mean that's what he's good at, as we've learned, that his sword hand was everything to him. If there's one thing he could beat Ned at, it was physically he could beat him with a sword. Not mentally, not like in good graces or in being a good person, obviously.

He could never live up to that of Eddard Stark, but he could at least beat him with his sword. but he could at least beat him with his sword. There's a crazy thought I'm going to have right now. Doesn't Jaime throw at Catelyn's face? Or throw back at Catelyn? I don't remember the one explicitly about Eddard having a bastard. Yeah, much like Cersei does in Game of Thrones to Ned with Azshara. Right. So I'm just kind of wondering that, like, is that part of Jaime's motivation?

Other than, you know, his very fucked up relationship with Cersei. Is that part of Jaime's motivation for being so loyal to Cersei? Is he like, I got this on Eddard Stark. I am loyal to my sister lover. Yeah, I could see it. I mean, I think he was traumatized in a way of that.

I don't know. It's something to think about, though. Pete, you gave us lots to chew over, and we really appreciate it. We'll talk to you very soon. Thanks for the email. We also got an email from our friend Warren. Speaking of buddies that sent us some mail, and Warren wanted

to talk about Jamie's arc and how people, not me, he says, not Chloe. Thank you, Warren. I see you. I see you. How Jamie's arc is a redemption arc, some people think, but really he thinks he's just realizing what he's done has been pretty shitty and he could be better. And that reading him when he's trying to be better, like with Brienne, obviously, it's uplifting to see someone so derided rise up and determine he can and will be better. And Jaime rescuing Brienne is a great example of this. But Warren says George isn't telling a black and white story. Jaime's flaws are present, but what was perceived as arrogance is tinged with a sense of sincerity finally. Jamie gets iconic lines, that's no accident, this week's gem, last week's gem now, being his response when Brienne asks, why did you come back? And he quips, I dreamed of you.

But we know he did dream, and while he's being a smartass, he actually means it. I often wonder as a writer what kind of things George finds challenging, and I know he's talked in some areas of struggling like with Bran and magic, but when I read some of Jaime's lines, I'm full of admiration for how he clearly loves these characters but can be detached enough to have them commit heinous acts like Jaime and Bran or Sandor and Micah and deliver iconic lines. There are no men like me, only me. George typing that, sitting and looking at various alternatives before settling on that alone is an incredibly arrogant and ballsy statement, and I think as a writer it takes courage to leave it and not water it down.

I dreamed of you as another example, and in this light she could be a beauty. A quote Jeff read on the History Westeros Barristan episode regarding Jaime rings here too did I soil the white cloak or did it soil me? Fundamentally Jaime's still the same person responding in the same ways but his motivations change because he's touched and even inspired by Brienne and her

honor rather than Cersei and her I'll let you fill in the blanks and we will today in this episode for sure George is exploring similar themes with Sandor in a way like Jamie has done terrible things and he's been callous about it yet inside there's a deep and sincere sorrow I'd guess in both instances if the arcs aren't redemptive they might be atoning I agree Warren however I would like to add that Jamie is the royalty here or the uh the here, and Sandor was the help.

Anyways, moving past that, thank you, Warren. Great email. Yeah, I like the call-out of exploring similar themes with Sandor. I've always thought that there are a lot of similar ones with Theon, especially because both Theon and Jaime owe Bran something quite big. And we'll obviously see that in, well, actually, no, that's not obvious, but we will obviously see that in well actually no that's not obvious but we will probably see that in later books I mean Theon is hearing Bran in the trees and obviously Bran is still like that's one of those Chekhov's

guns that hasn't gone off yet right Bran trying to remember like wait what the fuck happened to me again yeah and I think there's gonna be some really big trial esque moments whether it's an actual trial or whether it's like things like that like look at sansa with her memory and with little finger uh and realizing hey wait a second you betrayed my dad ha ha ha and my mom ha ha ha things like

that i think the start kids are gonna have to have some realization soon and brand thankfully has a little bit of a of an achievement award going on there because he has trees. He has trees. Bran can be like, www. last year at this time. Yeah, the search tools. Please narrow down my search to this time period. But you know what did happen in the time period between

the last Jamie chapter and this Jamie chapter? That was a good one. That was a good one this time. It would have been good if you didn't say it was good. So this is a very big lightning round. It is like a rainstorm. It's like a tropical thunderstorm of a lightning

round, truly. We started off with Catelyn V. Robb writes his will, whether Catelyn likes it or not. Yes. Samwell III. Sam must put down one of his reanimated brothers. And Coldhands comes to his rescue. Arya IX.

Sandor reveals his whole life is consumed in achieving vengeance against his brother, and also that he's going to ransom Arya and then try to join the wolves to fight. Jon 6. Jon reaches Molestown in time to warn everyone of the Free Folk's approach, arriving to Castle Black to learn that his brothers are dead. Ish. Ish. Ish.

Catelyn 6. Greywyn's howls should have warned them away from the twins, but yet they continued on. Arya 10. Arya and Sandor arrive at the twins for a wonderful if not cheap wedding, but great wedding by Dothraki standards. Honestly, a fucking

killer wedding by their standards. Yeah, absolutely. People were dying to get in. So, Catelyn 7. Jamie Lannister sends his regards. Arya 11, it's too late for Arya to save her family, so Sandor must save her. Tyrion 6, Tywin reveals his motivations and the wolf up his sleeve. Davos 5, Melisandre's leech work proves sort of effective.

This is like one of those small texts read very quickly during a commercial. Davos thinks a path for Stannis' glory lies in going north. John 7. Literally, I just want you guys to know that for John 7, the lightning round this week is

Say Something by A Great Big World, the song. That's all. Brand 4. A brother of the Night's Watch guides Brandon and his group to the Black Gate, allowing him passage beyond. Daenerys 5. Belos is sent in an attempt to weaken Meereen. Traitors fill the court of Queen Daenerys, and she sends them away in disgust and heartache. Tyrion 7.

Tyrion finds no comfort in his grieving wife and turns to his paramour, who he knows he cannot keep. He devises a way to protect Shae. Sansa 4. Sansa has to suffer at a ton of public events after her entire family was basically publicly butchered and dude it just sucks

don't read this book 0 out of 10 would not recommend Tyrion 8 that was pretty good I give that like a 10 out of 10 actually wow amazing so now we're at a 5 out of 10 average on this book all right you guys i'm bringing it up sansa 5 sansa's whisked away to safety by this very unemployed man with very ugly facial hair and

weird minty breath and that that brings us to Jamie 7, Jamie's glorious return to King's Landing, to his golden sister and his lordly father, who shits gold, is harshed by the death of his... not a son? The king is dead, they told him, never knowing that Joffrey was his son as well as his sovereign.

It was Tyrion. He drank his blood. It was poison. His face turned black. The dwarf's wife did the murder thing, too. I mean, kinda. For those last two. The drinking of the blood? No, but metal. We also have this line of for sansa afterward she vanished from the hall in a puff of brimstone and a ghostly direwolf was seen prowling the red keep blood dripping from his jaws okay that is so amazing and metal though like i know this is most likely

a cloud of sulfur as far as brimstone goes but i imagine it's brimstone butterflies like huge yellow butterflies very like erupting around her but of course this language is in line with how sansa is talked about on the road from other places right sandor hears about her on the road i forgot you've been hiding under a rock, the northern girl, Winterfell's daughter. We heard she killed the king with a spell and afterward changed into a wolf with the big leather wings like a bat and flew out a tower window. But she left the dwarf behind and Cersei means to have his head. Interestingly enough, she is described very much so bat-like or like I said, brimstone butterflies, bat-like, or like I said, brimstone butterflies, especially when you consider the color yellow,

and with Jaime having chosen a Lothsten shield, which does have yellow on it like we talked about last episode, and the black bat. Sansa is really, really very much so getting into that house-went kind of imagery, Lothsten imagery, that comes from her mother's side of the family, so very interesting. and it also relates to how rob is described in battle in a clash of kings right using some vile sorcery your brother fell upon sir stafford lannister with an army of wargs not three days ride from lannisport yeah absolutely there's a lot there that as you said harkens to i mean a lot of the ways that these legends start to make them like, look, Sansa, you made it. You're in a story.

You're in a legend. It's a pretty badass portrayal, too. Well, it doesn't take too long from what we hear to be made into a song, right? Arya hears songs that are likely about Ashara Dayne dying in A Storm of Swords, right? And she's performing in

plays about Sansa. Yeah, I love that. I love how it spreads throughout Westeros. To Essos. I do like how this is introduced. I think the language, Jaime chapters are just really strong, how they start usually. And the framework is great here because it's 18 chapters between Jaime 6 and Jaime 7. Much like Sansa has a large gap between her chapters in A Game of Thrones after the Trident to give the reader a different

perspective of the character and keep the ambiguity. Our big cut here was from Jaime saving Brienne, leaving us, you know, kind of just jaw dropped to now Jaime Lannister sends his regards. And here we are back on the road with Jaime and Brienne coming into King's Landing. And it frames the characters in these two kind of comparisons as a villain or uncaring or unmoved by something big and traumatic that happened. For Sansa, we come back to her living her best fucking life after that, right? Like she's going to go to the tourney and everything's going to be magical. And all of that that happened was all everybody else's fault. And I'm a kid, so I'm not gonna pay attention and blah, blah, blah, blocked it out because traumatic. And for Jaime and Brienne, it's kind of more of

this reaction and reveal. Jaime is being painted as the villain in this light after we've had a handful of chapters and he's been out of sight, out of mind, and everyone's dead. But he really wasn't fully a villain here, which we're going to chat about later again. Much like Sansa, as we learned, wasn't really a villain with the lady situation. In Jaime 5, we start the chapter with his hand burned. Something that framed not only jamie's hand hurting from being obviously chopped off but aries burning his hand of the king which jamie then reminisces about in that chapter in similar fashion this chapter two chapters later for jamie

starts off with the king is dead they told him but this time the king that's dead is his son and not aries yeah those are some fantastic parallels that are being drawn there in the double entendres of how it's being played with. How Jaime's reliving, in a way, a lot of these things again, just in a different context with the wording. And yeah, we don't really get that much of what happened while on the road. In storytelling, we're just kind of, of course, seeing the parts that are important for jamie's character and story and as i'm rereading this as just jamie

chapters yes 20 chapters or something happened between this and the last one but it kind of really throws into the foreground something interesting about the timing which we're going to get back to in a bit also i have a tinfoil just now the ghostly direwolf seen prowling the red keep we know that sansa keeps waking up and seeing lady right in the corner of the room a thought whoa a thought what if she's uh warging lady's ghost well i i wasn't going that far i just thought that maybe lady's ghost was haunting the red key but you know let's let's take it a step further why not i'm just saying yeah why not why not no one recognizes jamie at the end on the roadside why not so they all spill

the tea freely they're like why not why not gossip in front of jamie lannister and i don't know her that's basically what jamie's saying right now he tries to think of Joffrey, but he can't. All he can see is Cersei in his mind. And he sees Cersei in mourning, her hair is a mess, crying and fighting through the tears in his mind's eye. He thinks that she'll look to him for comfort and for revenge. I mean, he knows his sister. If nothing else, there's that. Yeah, absolutely. It is kind of one of those things, though, now that we say it out loud that i'm like

oh that's how you see cersei in your mind in mourning her harem ass crying fighting through the tears like seeing her as this you know his idealized maiden in distress because that's what he does he saves maidens she's not a maiden yeah that's what he's about to fucking learn um that's true they ride for the capital super hard the next day. Steel Shanks, as they get closer, is like, wow, this stinks. And Jaime's like, yeah, it's smoke, sweat, and shit. You can smell the treachery, too, if you sniff real hard. And Steel Shanks is like, White Harbor never smelled like this.

And Jaime says White Harbor is to King's Landing as Tyrion is to Gregor. I wonder if that's going to have some sort of like bearing on Jaime and Tyrion in the north or something. I thought that was interesting. Oh, I thought it was a comparison of kind of like, people underestimating White Harbor, especially as we see Lord Manderly start to become more of a maybe a player unless you know, he's dead, but he absolutely was a player. Right? Yeah. Well, and I think here it's apt that he's showing the size comparison, and we know Tyrion is a survivor so far in the series,

and Gregor is a half-survivor. Ish! Ish is a great way to put it. As Nag leads them with a seven-tailed peace banner with the seven-pointed star on top, Jamie wonders if Tyrion could really have killed Joffrey, and he's pretty much in disbelief. And then he's like, why don't I feel anything about this? I feel like nothing about this. And then we have this quote of,

Men were supposed to go mad with grief when their children died, he knew. They were supposed to tear their hair out by the roots to curse the gods and swear red vengeance. Yeah, and this is great too with the Oberyn comparison coming up about his sister and her children, right? With the chapters to follow and Oberyn

to put it delicately, getting smashed. Delicately? Okay. Which it was not put. It was not is not obron's head not handled delicately and it's also literally what catlin actually does with the tearing of the hair out cursing god's vengeance and i think it's interesting that like jamie thinks that this is what how men are supposed to react and it reminds me again of what i've been saying of like catelyn as the father as opposed to the mother in terms of the seven and that judgment i like that a lot i'm glad you still like it two weeks later i actually told not a cast about it i was like you guys should talk

about this with your cattle in chapter two because we just talked about it it's so interesting me opening my trench coat y'all want to buy some takes he thinks about how joffrey believed robert was his father and how cersei never let him near joffrey the boy had been a squalling pink thing who demanded too much of cersei's time cersei's love and cersei's breasts robert was welcome to him, we're gonna return to this quote in a bit in this chapter. There's like that weird envying thing, right? Where he's like envying his son's attention from his sister. But, anyway,

yeah, you know, Cersei gets a lot of blame for how Joffrey turned out and of course she shoulders quite a bit of it. But as we've discussed before, I think for all intents and purposes, right, Robert was Joffrey's father in the same way that we're gonna find ned was john's father and like who they tried to be right who they wanted to be when they grew up whose approval they were seeking but interestingly both robert and jamie probably see joffrey slash their son the same way of like uh I don't know that boy was that boy was off

but with Joffrey trying to be like Robert and doing all these crazy things to get his attention and his approval it becomes this really great closed loop with this chapter specifically as we realize that Joffrey even though he thought that the Baratheon was his father has been trapped in the same familial tragedy that all of these Lannister kids, who are not kids, are now broken adults, have been with Tywin as they've just been trying to impress

and squeeze love out of their father, like, for years. Yeah, the wheel goes round and round for sure, and it's very obvious in this chapter with the behavior you see between Jamie and Cersei, obviously. And then, of course, Jamie with Tywin and how Tywin treats him. But I do think a call out there is like, I think Robert's parentage of Joffrey is minimized very, very often. Like, I'm a strong advocate to talk about it that it's so minimized like george

specifically makes it a point that the cat spa was sent by joffrey because he was trying to emulate his quote-unquote father which we know is robert because robert was heard in passing saying put the kid down you know just be fucking done with it man and i think that like because the author intended us to find that was a big reveal which we see later with of course tyrian or sorry just a chapter ago when uh tyrian and sansa were at the the brunch thing for joffrey's wedding day right the present giving uh and he tears up the book and joffrey's wedding day, right? The present giving. And he tears up the book, and Joffrey's like, oh, maybe you should have had a Valyrian dagger. And he confirms it, basically, in that moment.

Like, ah, it was Joffrey. He looked at me like that, that little punk. Like, I figured his ass out. Yeah. Which, obviously, this is all different time. We'll talk about it again, I'm sure, because we'll talk about it with Tyrion. But that's why, of course, Joffreyffrey when he dies it's all like you like it had to have been him because

he literally made the threat about the dagger that's all joffrey knows to think about right like he doesn't fucking know who has it out for him even though everyone does so i don't know uh joffrey was like putting a lion-shaped cube in a big dumb round hole right when it comes to robert like robert with maya you get that great passage where he talks about how you know she just laughed and laughed and he would throw her or sorry from maya you get that big passage about how like she's always being tossed in the air and laugh and laugh and laugh from robert and then you have cersei who's like yeah he loved all of his bastards but he hated joffrey every time he even touched

joffrey joffrey cried yeah and i mean yeah it's all that and it's not like they tried in the sansas in the sansa chapters but like joffrey abusing sansa was something that he learned from his dad because he was like oh my dad hits my mom so why not? This is what I'm supposed to do, right? Like, that was normalized for him. And now that I think about it, even the manner of his death. Yes, absolutely. By wine. Like, wine played a big role in Robert's downfall.

Literally, one of the biggest roles in Joffrey's death here. From his wife's family and his wife maybe we don't know yet about Margie's role Cersei indirectly also her but anyway but yeah I mean like that's part of it like yes of course Joffrey like Robert also like Cersei I mean

Jaime sees Joffrey right as an extension of Cersei when he's thinking of what does Joffrey look like dad he's not seeing Joffrey he's seeing Cersei and I mean that's kind of what Cersei wanted Joffrey to be but she found she couldn't control him but she wanted her children to be an extension of her that's how she sees them yeah and that obviously like you said comes from the entire dynamic of the family they're all fucked that they're a fucked up family they all fuck and they're all fucked that they're fucked up family they all fuck and they're all fucked so he rides back to brienne on his horse who's decked out in scavenged menswear and armor

he nags her about being quiet and covering her face he says they're almost at king's landing and brienne mostly kept her vow but she insists there was another half which was returning the girls you know that tiny part of the vow there's only only a small part and jamie's like you know it's really interesting how brienne grieves way more for this king that she never met than i am for my own king who's also my son and he's like oh man i remember when we learned about this happening we were over at brindlewood and we learned from sir bertram beesbury and oh the beesburys are in this story in the main story apparently they are i like the beesburys they're an interesting house vassals such as lord piper

though apparently are heading to king's landing to go pledge and surrender especially because you know they amongst many other houses have family members that are being held hostage at the twins and bd jamie explains to brianne that you know there are a lot of vassals who have envy towards their lords for example we lannisters we had the rains and the tarbacks the tyrells they got the florence the tullies they they obviously as you can now see had the phrase and like he's not even like you know this the Boltons or the Starks, they were part of that too. The Boltons used to just flay the Starks in rhythmous cloaks. This is normal. Yeah, this is such a brilliant way for George to give that bigger overall reveal about how the Red Wedding played out. Because this time it's not to us. we already know as readers that it's happened,

it's to Brienne. We're given a direct show of the people who've tried to rise up and what happens to them. He notes the reigns in the Tarbecks, which of course we know what happened to them, the reigns of Castamere. Robert's match with Selyse and Stannis as a political marriage that we've talked about before, in case the Tyrells ever acted up, rings true here. And we also see Axel Florent rise in power from being a background character at the start of the series to the queen's side after his brother is burnt, right? And of course, lastly, we get to the Tullys and the Freys and the Boltons and the Starks. And this reference right here is so, so obvious, because the Freys have wanted nothing more than to usurp the Tullys forever, as we know. And the Tullys are now dead, but for the Blackfish

who escaped, and they have their claws on Edmure. And of course, the Starks used to be flayed by the Boltons and worn as cloaks. That's the giveaway. Yeah, and obviously, we've discussed this in some of the Theon chapters, but you see like those bolton hints especially because not everyone in the north is aware of their role at the red wedding i mean we are because we all saw it and we're there whatever it wasn't exactly like planned in front of brienne or jamie but like you could see those seeds start happening during that supper but it's interesting that george actually said in 2000 there's a so speak martin and we'll link it that ruse was still keeping his options open and was only just exploring and seeing like is this a viable option for me when jamie was at supper and questioning him about it and george actually says in terms of you know the timeline up

as for bolton if you reread all those sections carefully, I think you will see a picture of a man keeping all his options open as long as he could sniffing the wind, covering his tracks, ready to jump either way, even as late as his supper with Jamie at Heron Hall. Oh yeah. And you can totally see that because like it reads more like this is Bolton

kind of being like, Hmm. So now that I have you here, since you stumbled into my arms, Kingslayer, it's interesting you're here tonight having these dates and this wine with me. Do you think that your dad would be down to tango? Yeah, because I don't know. Looking for a wolf of a different coat, you know, a golden coat, maybe a lion, maybe, maybe. Like, it really is a feeling it out chapter. You see him and like it's like a dance jamie like steps forward and bolton kind of steps back a little and then bolton steps forward and jamie kind of steps back a little until finally at the

end of the conversation jamie goes i get it yes get me home and my dad has your back yeah and he didn't quite know that it meant oh killing a bunch of people at a wedding, but. Yeah, they didn't know what was being planned. And he didn't know that his words were going to be twisted like that. Man, if I were Jamie, I'd be like, goddammit. Well, yeah, that's the whole thing. He's a case

slayer all over again. I know, yes. And he's like, goddammit. Why would you sell me my bad name like this? My bad name. Why would you sell it even more? But this, I want to be responsible for the bad things I did do, you know? Not the bad things I didn't do.

Anyway. Well, and while it was playing and parrying, like, yes, he didn't know this was what he was orchestrating, but he also knows that ruse bolton isn't a dude to fuck around with and he says so right here like saying like ah you know the starks the boltons want to skin them for history and history and they used to and yeah like okay we know you weren't planning like a princess party right like what'd you think was gonna happen jamie like yes, yes, once more, hated

for killing a king, but not in the usual way, but it's like one of these, again, one of these things, much like when we get to Feast, where Jamie's doing the best he can, quote-unquote, with most things, but wasn't his best move. I think he thought it was gonna be like a double-cross thing, right?

Like, where the next thing you know, the Tyrells turn around all of a sudden, wow, who are the Tyrells backing? And I think he thought it was going to be like that with the Boltons, not like wow, greatest Dothraki wedding of the century. Yeah, like maybe like Roose was going to marry someone off or you know, I don't know.

Use his words! Since hearing the news, Brienne has been listless there's this line the woman had dropped a rock on Robin Riger battled a bear with a tourney sword bitten off Fargo Hote's ear and fought Jamie to exhaustion

but she was broken now, done maybe she's just tired because honestly, this is me around this time every night. I'm just saying, and she does a lot more. They haven't even been in hotels. Who knows what they've been doing.

Yeah, I sleep in a bed. For sure. I called it out though just because I was like, oh yes, broken man. The broken man speech. Brienne, like you said, she's probably just tired because she finds strength later on. And I think there's an argument maybe that one can be unbroken, like, de-brokenized, maybe, when one feels they have a purpose, as long as they believe, like, values still have meaning, as Brienne does. But that's later on in the story.

meaning as Brienne does but that's later on in the story he says he'll talk to his dad about sending Brienne back home to Tarth or maybe give her a place at court if she wants to stay she's naturally not thrilled at that concept because what would she be a companion to the queen he thinks about her in a dress again and what Cersei would think and says no no okay fine whatever what about the city watch and she's like, full of oath breakers and murderers. And he's like, all right, peace. But then he thinks, then why did you ever bother putting on a sword? He might've said, but he bit back the words.

Totally Jamie's worldview in a nutshell. Absolutely. He's still getting over it, he is. Side note, I know that, like, the pack survives, but it's interesting that Brienne is very much just that lone wolf character. That's all.

I think you're very on the wolf nose there. Yeah, and I know people have likened, you know, Dunk and Egg's stories to, like, Lone Wolf and and cub and clearly brienne potter a version of that yes yeah absolutely and i see her i mean yeah uh the bad show did a version of it but i do see her as a kind of a kingsguard-esque character she's someone who takes her vows the night seriously so i see her john jamie all of those kind of roles right of

doing their duty in the story so for her in the end if she does become a kingsguard member or if she does something i think it makes sense for her to be on her own especially if jamie's not in the picture i think this is you know it's this big chivalric romance and they kind of are their big love so i don't foresee them finding anyone else after each other ever yeah this is yeah as you said duty is their wife duty and grave worms uh you're reminding me of some of arihota's lines but right now the gate of the gods is clogged with carts and wagons of really nice food and produce and drink. Different types of guards surround them. There are lords also and farmer's boys and sellswords. The gold cloaks are actually collecting coin at the point of entry from each of the wagon's drivers.

And Steelshanks is like, Jamie, can you explain what the fuck is going on here? Because he's like, I don't understand. Why are people paying for entry? And a nearby man explains it's because there's more money to be made in King's Landing under the Lannister's silver reign.

And Jaime's like, no, Tywin Lannister shits gold. And I just want to say that obviously Steelshanks has never been to an anime convention if he doesn't understand this because would you Steelshanks, let me tell you, sometimes you pay lots of money so that you can go inside and spend even more money welcome to capitalism baby we are the law

jamie is like actually little finger has to mint the stuff himself at this point and the captain the gate interrupts and he's like um actually the imp is master of coin well was until he killed the king and got arrested uh jamie is so out of place this entire chapter and him getting corrected here is so good because it's like no jamie this is no longer where you live either yeah actually though that really is like how many chapters also are there like along with that where jamie just shows up places and gets caught up on the gossip like the next two or three yeah it's like every chapter for jamie the guards look over at the northmen asking who they are and they say they've come to see the

king the guards assume they mean bend the knee and wave them through. Jamie notes the city does not seem to be in mourning except for a begging brother in the street of seeds praying for the king's soul. Everything else seems to be normal. There are sex workers who are being jolly and hanging their titties out of the windows. Bakers are baking. Jugglers are spinning knives to entertain some tyrell soldiers jamie finds no one is paying him any attention they don't know who he is for once he's an outsider like i said and even here the tyrell soldiers are highlighted and i think that's on purpose that he literally says tyrell soldiers are being entertained because if you close your eyes and imagine this scene for a second you're entering a street that you once knew that you walked every day in this city and yet like the tyrell soldiers

are in your city acting normal acting like they're just here to get a drink and hang out with the barkeep and you know hit on the chicks over there and this is what they do every day like that's how long he's been gone this is him coming home from battle you know i mean he's a veteran here he is he he's got a completely different world view than these nights of summer as i'm sure that jamie would think of them or or catelyn would think of them but it reminds me of something at the beginning of ned's chapters where he says to robert like, what the fuck happened, Robert? Why are you just surrounded by Lannisters? And that's essentially like, I know Cersei's like paranoid about that in her chapters in Feast, but I mean, she's not wrong. She's like, why am I surrounded by Tyrells? she's like why am i surrounded by tyrells yeah it's definitely a change of environment and scenery and it it's a huge change from the beginning of the book when it was robert surrounded by the for sure and it reminds me also of sansa looking around at the tyrells and thinking they're all

foolish young girls in the same book in a storm of swords they're just girls you know they know nothing about war or any of this they'll grow up soon and they'll understand too you know she that's a kind of jamie-esque way of looking at the world a little bit very jaded cynicism has unfortunately grown that way for sure yeah there's also another line that really embodies the way things have changed for Jaime, and it's, Your face has changed, and your arms as well, the Northmen said. And they have a new Kingslayer now! Hooray! It reminds me of that line from the bad show when Sansa says to Tyrion during the wedding ceremony for Margaery and Joffrey,

We have a new queen in Eyrolls. We have a new kingslayer. They head up to the Red Keep. The gate is open but armed by gold cloaks and Sir Maron commands the front. Jaime speaks up and Maron is shocked that it's him. Jaime's like

it's nice to be remembered. Please move. And they all obey immediately and it pleases him immensely having having forgotten how much he liked it it's another thing that's gonna go nicely with the end of this chapter and a couple of other things that happen right that feeling of power of obedience and jamie and all the landisters are so used to it yeah they come upon two quote new kingsguard members that jam Jaime doesn't know. And he thinks it's very, like, Cersei to name me Lord Commander and then appoint new colleagues for me.

Great, thanks. Which is, of course, like, why he refuses the hand job, finally, because he's like, wow. Interesting wording. Yep. Because finally he's like, hmm, wow, interesting. Like, wait a second, maybe this isn't what couples do that are happily in love. Also, maybe couples that are happily in love aren't siblings. There's a lot of things that couples that are happily in love don't do that Jamie and Circe do. seriously do i do not recommend yeah and and then oh everything gets even better get ready he meets loris terrell in case you want jamie's day to get fucking better and he feels just dirty

in comparison to this fucking young twink in this beautiful silk like loris is just like i have flowers in my hair and i'm gorgeous and strong and muscled like a maiden's fantasy. And Jamie's just like, what a waste of a knight. What a waste of a Kingsguard. He looks at him and he's like, you chump. When I was your age, I was 10 Kingsguard and one. Even though like he killed the king. And everyone, I mean, Jamie was also same deal. Yeah.

Like all these maiden's fantasiesies literally we spent last chapter finding out how many maidens he was the fantasy of this is literally the spider-man meme like i'm you you're me loris was knighted at 15 beautiful sister who looks exactly like him high expectations to boost the family's name. Kingsguard at 17. Secret lover. Golden Rose. His first scene with Loras is so interesting from the perspective of Jaime feeling unclean. Like Warren mentioned earlier, the Barristan quote, did I spoil the cloak or did it spoil me, fits here to where it builds when Jaime finally blows up on Loras in the next chapter and says, you know, older and wiser, sir, you should learn from me. Loras's role in Jaime's plot in King's Landing kind of feels

like it's there for Jaime to get obsessed with, right? Like where Cersei has that beat of Margaery in her head, that conniving little bitch stealing her son, Jaime has Loras, look at us, we're better than you, we do this better than you, we're the golden roses with our plenty harvest, our Disney prince and princess songs, the people like our soldiers better, our queen better, our Kingsguard members better. And that brings out what he realizes that he and Cersei don't functionally have, right? Like, any functionality, they don't have any of it. i'm also starting to wonder is the another difference is it like that mace tyrell actually likes his kids yeah mostly i mean i

still think there are some insane pressure and like requirements to be a tyrell child obviously so i don't know if i would say that i mean he does seem to like them that is the difference of like olena preparing marjorie for court instead of just like offering her up like cattle yeah i mean we don't know we don't have any tyrell povs that would be interesting if we did lord cyril could be an interesting pov jamie tells sir marion you know you haven't done a great job of teaching these new brothers their duties and marion is like uh what do you mean, boss? And Jaime's like, keeping the king alive? The one.

Which is also, like, this is the exact moment when one of your parents says to you, do I look like an idiot to you? Like, what do you do? Don't say anything about Aerys, Maren. Do not talk about Aerys right now. Like, Jaime's sitting here like, your job is to keep the king alive

and Maren's like don't laugh don't laugh it's also the same line right that Cersei kind of throws at Barristan yeah Jamie's throwing it around here but yes as you said interesting coming from the kingslayer Bael and Swan

though finally notices the elephant in the room and it's not Brienne, it's Jaime's missing hand. Jaime quips, like, oh, yeah, I'm just gonna fight with my left one now, and BD, inside his head, very BD, asks where his father is, and he's

in the solar with Lord Tyrell and Oberyn, and Jaime's like, that's weird, very strange, and asks, okay, anyways, where can I find the queen? And they answer that she's in the sept praying over the king. But then there's a huge dramatic moment because Loras realizes that Brienne is there. And he's like, you are another kingslayer. You wore the rainbow cloak, but you killed him.

And Brienne is all like, I did not. I did not hit her. I did not. Oh, hi, Mark. How's the sex life, Loras? That's actually Brienne's. That's not actually her line. No, what she says is, I did not do that.

Like, I loved him. I'd die for him. Please stop. That is the same energy, though, as Johnny's. Yeah him please stop and that is the same energy though as johnny's literally the same in that one absolutely as tommy was out but he asks if she's accusing catelyn of doing it and then he calls catelyn an old woman which is honestly really rude this little tyke needs to respect his elders like you are the lg on my river right now loris and you're gonna get fucking plucked leave Leave Catelyn out of this.

Brienne tries to explain it was a shadow and Stannis, and for obvious reasons, Loras does not buy it. He accuses her of having no honor and he's like, fight me, mate. He bites his thumb at her, and Jamie steps in and tells Loras, yo, put your sword away. Also, Brienne

can totally kick your ass, and Loras is like, this is of no concern to you basically saying you're not my boss and jamie's like yes i am the fucking lord commander balan swan backs him up gold cloaks are all like oh oh shit and the dreadfort men also get their swords out they're like let's go let's go and then loris is like all right all right all right well at least arrest her because i don't want her here and then jamoris is like all right all right all right well at least arrest her because i don't want her here and then jamie has this line of for what it's worth said jamie the wench does have honor more than i've seen from you and it may even be she's telling it true i'll

grant you she's not what you'd call clever but even my horse could come up with a better lie if it was a lie she meant to tell as you insist however sir balin escort lady brand to a tower cell and hold her there under guard this is like one of again jamie's i'm doing the best i can in these circumstances choices right like he does in feast under the lannister name as well stopping the bleeding still causing a little pain the best he can do in this situation is get her under guard in jail in a tower. But in the same motion, he also thinks earlier

that he loves the power he feels when he commands the men. So it shows that kind of internal struggle for order that Jaime's finding in honoring his post and role as Lord Commander, as Lannister titles, and of course, how best to keep Brienne safe while deprioritizing her

on this list of things and making the Lannisters and the Tyrells kind of the priority. Yeah, and also, Brienne's just so caught up in the honor of things, that same as at Roose Bolton's supper table. She doesn't really understand any of the politics that are at play here, because all she sees

is herself being arrested. And she's just like, what? I've done nothing wrong. And Jamie's like, yeah, I know. I'm just trying to appease the Tyrells right now and keep you safe. And it's worth noting that he says take her to a tower cell, not like the dungeons below, not that shitty place where Ned Stark was thinking of this book series. Because it's a cushy ass cell like i never realized until now that oh we can just add brienne to like the list of ladies trapped in towers

along with sansa and arianne and like arianne had a cushy ass house arrest okay she was being served amazing food uh except for the part where no one would talk to her and for extroverts like arianne things like that things like quarantining bad bad but especially because brienne's i mean she's not really arrested jamie's just saying that in front of everyone like unlike sansa and arianne being kept yeah and obviously like he rescued her in the last chapter so hopefully she can use that but at the same time she also just like half learned that he's part of the reason probably that the starks are dead so i can understand where she might just be a little like okay so is he just gonna leave me here in a fucking tower at his family's house like that's the other thing this totally reads like you're

going to go meet my family for the first time by the way and also we're not actually dating like and don't tell them we are that's really how i'm dating my sister entire episode yeah like by the way do not let my sister find out that i'm dating you because i'm actually dating her and also don't let my father find out that i'm dating you because i'm actually dating her and he doesn't know that i'm actually dating her either yes and it turns out the whole realm thinks I'm not dating anyone because I'm not supposed to yeah also you remember the part where I just emphasize I'm lord commander of the kingsguard several times I'm supposed to be the most kingsguardiest of them all of all of the seven I'm supposed to be the one that does the most kings guarding

and I, Jamie Lannister, have done the least guarding of kings at the same time, yeah, and he's like by the way, also put up these bolt men, take care of these steel shanks, the railway cat these other cats Brienne is hurt though because Jamie did just have her arrested Steel shanks, the railway cat, these other cats.

Brienne is hurt, though, because Jamie didn't just have her arrested. He's like, I barely had you arrested. In his head, he's like, you should be blowing me kisses. He literally thinks she should be blowing me kisses. Blowing what? Kisses. Oh. Yes.

Why? What did you think, Chloe? Blowing what? Jamie thinks everybody misunderstands him because of Ares. Interesting. Jamie, listen, it's not like I stabbed you in the back or something, Brienne. God. Yeah, at least, like, he's like, if I'm gonna stab you, it's gonna be

mostly in front. You'll see it coming. Ares did. I'm gonna cry. The Kingsguard-iest of all of them he's supposed to be the most Kingsguard-iest it's like he's like I don't know how I got this promotion I was tricked into

taking this job yeah he's like I thought I was qualified for this job and he was in fact qualified for this job. Yeah, he's like, I thought I was qualified for this job. And he was, in fact, qualified for this job, except it turns out he wasn't when he killed his king. Whatever. Complicated. It's a complicated job, apparently. Jamie tries to go into the sept, and a bouncer at the door tells Jamie it's VIP only.

Cersei wants to mourn alone. Jamie's like, do you even fucking know who I am and the bouncer's like hey let me give you a hand here sir um the bouncer's like do you know who I am I'm a Kingsguard cripple and Jaime's like are you fucking kidding me I'm her brother and he's

like why aren't you in prison and Jaime's incredulous and he's like I'm her other brother it's pretty obvious I'm the real tall one the guard falls over himself and he's like oh I'm Osmond Kettleblack uh and Jamie's like whatever loser get the fuck out I want to fuck he gets in there Cersei's praying hundreds of candles are lit to pray for Joffrey and Jamie's like damn Joffrey needs every one of those because this bitch is dead yeah well not just dead he's just like man who knows where that boy is going in the afterlife

my god we all know sis we've been known we all know and I just really want to put this exchange in here I'm gonna cut it off a line early from what's actually it is just for comedic effect for me anyways his sister looked over her shoulder who she said that jamie she rose her eyes brimming with tears is it truly you she did not come to him however she has never come to me he thought she's always waited letting me come to her she gives gives, but I must ask. You should have come sooner, she murmured when he took her in his arms. Why couldn't you have come sooner to keep him safe, my boy? Our boy? I came as fast as I could, phrasing. He broke from the embrace and stepped back apace. It's war out there, sister. You look so thin, and your hair, your golden hair. The hair will grow back.

Ah. Jamie lifted his stump. She needs to see. This won't. Her eyes went wide. The Starks. No, this was Vargo Holt's work. The name meant nothing to her.

Who? Who? I never, I didn't notice, even this is like the 80th time i've read this passage today and i didn't think about the the hair will grow back there that jamie says about his hair i'm like oh that lannister vibe yo uh and hair grows back so cersei's growing paranoia and instant jump to the Starks here I love it and Jaime's perception against that it's all very interesting how it's framed because we know Cersei sees them all as scheming she sees everyone as scheming to be honest but she thinks that Sansa murdered Joffrey or helped partially because she murdered her awful husband or helped who half-ass raised

the kid but that's another one for the Cersei chapters. It's called, in a John Ralphio voice from Parks and Rec, Projecting! And Cersei calls Sansa a she-woof all the time, and Jaime's out there like, the Starks? Okay. Sure it was them, Cersei.

How many Starks does it take to screw in a lightbulb? They don't have enough alive! Also, they were dead. Yeah, like, how could it have been them, Cersei? They're literally all dead or you've, like, scared all of them. It's interesting because, like, Tywin actually does the exact same thing, like, in a second

in this chapter when he's like, the Starks? He's like, no, no, no, no. And, I mean, like, it seems like the whole projection thing, you know, maybe at the very least, that is one thing that Cersei did inherit from Tywin yeah and also real quick it does

also feel like with that like really you guys are really like I guess it's Rob's victories in the field right the fact that he was able to defeat them in the field is why they think this but like most of those were really good raw young like war work there but also like the starks are just like falling over themselves

right now they don't have enough starks to hold up a goddamn like ceiling well they were also holding their breath i guess the lannisters were holding their breath the whole time after joffrey was like you know what would be different if i beheaded ned Stark instead and they were like oh oh oh no oh no they have Jaime like the whole time they've just been waiting for something like that to happen so maybe that's why they thought it too but I just love like she's like who uh coming back to that timing thing though where she's accusing Jaime like why the fuck weren't you here and I might be wrong right but so seriously it's all like you could have protected Joffrey which debatable I mean I'm not really sure how one uses a sword against poison you know questions that I have Jamie doesn't know medicine but anyway if I'm not mistaken was Jamie late because he doubled back to save Brienne like we get we get

like language that tells us it took this long right like Jamie asking how long will it take if we just stop here how long does it take us to go all the way back to Harrenhal and it tells us like when all that happens is does he miss the wedding and thus his son's death uh by going back to save Brienne like is that was that the price for this act of heroism like his son's death uh by going back to save rianne like is that was that the price for this act of heroism like his son's life kind of even though again i don't know how you fight against poison yes absolutely it was because tywin later comments on it as well that jamie should have made it on time according to what lord bolton said lord bolton hit tywin a quick i message and tywin was like, on red. Extremely telling

though in his development too at what he seems to be feeling in this chapter because like, the breaks are starting. You can see them. The cracks are there. I'm just waiting to chisel those open. Oh, absolutely. They look at Joffrey who's dressed in gilded armor.

Gilded armor that kind of creepily looks like Jaime's. Joffrey shimmers in the candlelightilded armor, gilded armor that kinda creepily looks like Jamie's. Joffrey shimmers in the candlelight bravely. Cersei does as well. Cersei is wearing her morning dress, shoutout back to, uh, fashion hour from what, Eddard and Sansa? The black gown with the red Rhaegar ruby tears in the bodice, and her hair long and tangled just like he imagined.

Joffrey is dressed like jamie which ironically cersei freaks out at jamie soon about how he's not being careful to hide their relationship but yet joffrey's funeral garb that he's in is like chosen looking exactly like his biological father yeah though i in the defense of everyone else you know with the exception of the targaryens no one really jumps to the conclusion like wow the twins must have been fucking most people would be like oh yes of course the Lannister seed is strong

right normal people but anyway Ned Ned is on that next level like shipping Cersei tells him that Tyrion finally did it. He wrote a check.

His words could cash. He said that her joy would turn to ashes in her mouth. And Jaime's like, really? I don't know. He doesn't want to believe that Tyrion would do that, especially since he's like, but Tyrion knew that Joffrey was my son. He thinks, I loved Tyrion. I was good to him.

Well, except for that one time, but Imp did not know the truth of that. Or did he? Dot, dot, dot. Yeah, it's really creeping. Just reading Jaime's chapters, it's so interesting how you start to see the Tysha

reveal mounting. Cersei cl jamie's good hand saying it was for tyrian's sex worker and that he had told her he was going to do it she kisses jamie's fingers and tells him that joff pointed his tyrian as he died naming his murderer she asks if jamie will avenge joffrey for her but he pulls away yeah you know as cerseisei tells Jamie that it would be so easy for him to just go murder his brother, it's so easy for you to just sneak in the cells, everyone's gonna let you in, you can just go and do it. I think that, you know, she's actually, in fact, kind of planting the seeds for Jamie to be like, wait, yes, it would in fact be easy for me to sneak in and free my brother.

Yeah, it's absolutely set up here. In fact, this entire passage is super fundamental for how that is set up, because he tells her, Tyrion's still my brother, and I only have one hand, so I really can't do all that. And he's like,

I just want to learn more before I commit to it, obviously. And she says, oh, well, there's going to be a trial, and that's when you're going to hear all of it, and you'll want him dead as much as she does. And obviously, we know that the exact opposite occurs, because Cersei orchestrates a fucking mummers lineup to convict Tyrion by fucking and paying people off, and Jaime's disgusted eventually at all of that because of the hard truths that Tyrion does reveal,

but also disgusted in general because it's obvious, right, that it's like a total mummer show so everything here she's like you're gonna believe it he's doing the exact opposite it makes him want to save tyrian more including being honest with him for the first time in his life about anything and everything including taisha and it makes it so juicy it's the first sign of pulling away from cersei and it's happening right now. The touching that Cersei is doing here is absolutely her tying her body to get him to do things for her. It's something we see Cersei prowess at doing. It's always paved her way to things before, whether it's giving or withholding her body. And each of these is connected to a request

or to something that needs convincing, right? Like earlier, she's kissing him softly. She's touching his arm and saying, oh, Tyrion said this. Soon these touches turn gross for him, and he does not want them. This is a sign of a relationship breaking down between them. And Jaime and Cersei are more physically in tune with each other and themselves than they are emotionally. So the dam has already actually broken for Jamie, but he doesn't realize it yet. In fact, he doesn't realize it until when he's throwing letters in the fire, which as we know is going to be a totally badass episode,

but it's already happening here, whether he knows it or not. Yeah, it's starting to. And that's absolutely true that like Circe is doing this, like as part of her request, starting to touch him, and she's like, oh, but what if you killed our brother? And, yeah, Jaime isn't super conscious of it here, because it doesn't come up, like, oh, it's just, like, next time, but it is! It's the same pattern as Circe coming to Jaime dressed as a maid and being like but what if you joined the king's guard and then applying him with sex but it this this is a weird scene how it all goes down here in the sept because you know then she kisses him lightly and she says i am not whole

without you but when he returns her soft kiss it isn't soft his isn't he kisses her hard and begins to kiss her neck and hold her and cersei says no like at first she says it like weakly saying not here the septons and he just like kisses her silent and kisses her until she moans and is banging on the mother's altar he would you say here as he puts her on top of that altar to uh insert himself that he is putting that pussy literally on a pedestal yeah he's been doing it like this whole time. Most people just don't usually do it with their sisters, you know? We're never going to let it go this episode. My God.

She's pounding on his chest, and Jaime remarks in his head, this is a feeble pounding, murmuring about their father and getting caught and the wrath of the gods, because that's stopped them so many times and so well in the beginning. You know, the first three times she got pregnant with him. But Jaime gets on in there and it turns out Cersei's on her period. And he's like, eh, whatever.

And he goes on in while she changes her tides slowly and then starts saying, hurry and quickly do it now. Do me, Jaime. Yes, my brother, you're home. Yes, I have you. You're home. I don't know if you're uncomfortable. I'm uncomfortable.

It's all very uncomfortable with how it started as a very reluctant, non-consensual experience. Yeah, the whole thing's uncomfortable. And it's not even like the period part. No, I don't care about that. Yeah, that's like not... I don't know if George threw it in there because he thought it would make us uncomfortable.

Like that's not uncomfortable. Because it, it yeah like coming back to that earlier line where joffrey thinks that where jamie was thinking about how joffrey takes up too much of circe's time and like her breasts and then we've discussed in jamie's first chapter he's upset about circe experiencing marital rape from robert but he's not upset about it because he's like wow my sister's being hurt by this he's upset about because he's not upset about it because he's like, wow, my sister's being hurt by this. He's upset about it because he's jealous of Robert being able to have Cersei. And it's just kind of a similar energy to the way Jaime feels about his son, I guess,

taking up Cersei's time. It's very strange. And I know people have had many discussions about this, a few years back when the show adapted the scene and they didn't quite have that same ambiguity right but we are seeing it of course through jamie's pov and cersei is saying no here at first and yeah she's pounding at his chest he thinks it's feeble but at the same time like it's not it's not the most consensual act like they'd have a horrible relationship and jamie's just kind of blowing past anything that cersei's saying. He's kind of just reenacting a lot of those same power dynamics that people exact on women. And it ties in well with, I guess, how Jamie was raised by Tywin, like that inability to listen to that no, even from people they were supposed to love and maybe hurting them. And maybe that's why Cersei's saying yes quickly, because she's like, let's just get

it over with, right? That's how she dealt with it with Robert. She's like, let's just get it over with, right? That's how she dealt with it with Robert. She's like, I'll just get it over with. And he was so drunk, I didn't even have to, like, I could just use my hands most of the time with stuff anyway. And Tywood reacts poorly to Jaime's several no's and refuses to acknowledge them when Jaime's like, no, I'm not giving up the Kingsguard for Casterly Rock. No, I'm not giving up the Kingsguard for Casterly Rock. It absolutely reads like she wanted to get it over with, especially because she tells him what he wants to hear in that.

She says, you're home. You're finally home. And what did Jamie do this entire time but think, I just have to get home for Cersei. She's waiting for me. She's waiting for me. But we the people know Cersei has not been waiting for Jamie. You know, she's, that's nowhere near her thoughts. She's not, waiting for jamie you know she's that's nowhere near her thoughts she's not she's busy right now she's doing shit and here in this scene

however you want to skew it whether you want to call it non-consensual or whether you want to say the sex was consensual cersei does not want to have sex with him her body language like at all she does not want to have sex with him in this scene it is neither here nor there it is very apparent the body language is reluctant she is only touching him when she wants something and it's hollow the big kicker that comes up soon is when she shies away from his arm the slip topping to it all she didn't want him to start with she saw something she wanted just like tywin sees what he wants with him in the end of the chapter and does not get it and there's no

happy afterglow for either of them here because immediately she's like get me up because they have to clean off the blood they smeared all over the altars yeah the line goes jamie wiped it clean with a sleeve then bent to pick up the candles he had knocked over fortunately they had all gone out and they fell if the sept had caught fire I might never have noticed wow speaking of I might never have noticed

I might never have noticed that line ever and I think it's because I blocked it out because of the sex scene like most George RR Martin sex scenes but like if the sept had caught fire i might never have noticed i wonder logistically if we could have the bad show sept blow up scene and king's landing blow up i suppose we could see a parallel i don't think we've seen happen yet but we also

get like i don't know i've just been thinking we get other things and other bits of maidens from the past books like fire and blood or the world of ice and fire and it makes me wonder if the set doesn't blow up in the books and it is just one blow up and it's king's landing which i thought was more likely i don't know like what's gonna happen to marjorie from all this stuff that keeps happening in uh these cersei chapters and jamie chapters especially and the tyrell soldiers being there and all this presence is marjorie gonna get a shardane is she gonna be the suicide of this generation oh interesting she has less of a role in the books than she did in the show right and during the dance we're lightly told people like like helena targaryen and jehera targaryen kill themselves they throw themselves off of the same

exact room jehera targaryen we learned it's actually a murder not a suicide very in passing it's not really confirmed but it's confirmed it was probably unwin peak but i just see like a likely blood and cheese kind of parallel coming soon with the sand snakes and tommy and marcella and now this is making me think like if the set does blow up maybe that's how the tarals go but maybe there's something else for marjorie i don't know yeah i could see it like and we the readers would be like, that seems weird for Margaery to do that. Yeah. Right. And as you said, like, Jaehaer Targaryen.

That's what it really makes me think about. Yeah. Well, Cersei, after the sex and after all the blood is cleaned up, is like, well, this was bullshit and stupid. We shouldn't have done it. And Jaime's like, if the Targaryens do it, why couldn't we? And then he says, stand up before the realm and say it's me you want. We'll have our own wedding feast and make another son in place of Joffrey. Ha ha ha, but Cersei finds that unfunny. And Jaime's like, I didn't intend it to be funny.

She says Tommen's throne comes from Robert. And Jaime's like, well, he can have Casterly Rock. They should just let dad sit the throne instead all I want is you oh Jamie yeah and seems like this is another thing where Cersei what is she just being reduced to her body again and

that's why Cersei thinks that's like the only thing she is in many ways other than the part where she also thinks she's Samhain's daughter but anyways like does circe even want to have more kids no probably not she's like already had three three and then like she had that abortion before but i mean to be honest she's already like this is already too much yeah and jam Jamie comes in and we have something that's very much like marital rape in this moment. And he's just like, yeah, I want another kid.

And Cersei's like, no, I don't want another kid. Anyway, that and also a side note, right? If something that bothers me about how this all goes down, because Cersei knows how it works, right? She lays it all very clearly. And it's different from how it's in the show. Because Cersei's like, why would we bother having another kid tom and throne derives from robert that's like the whole fucking point and i don't know that seriously will take the throne in the books same as in the show maybe maybe she will but maybe it won't be quite like that if she does she'll know much more

explicitly like this is a coup of like moving it to Lannister power because it's not derived from the Baratheons anymore. Yeah, it would absolutely be a big crazy deal. And I guess the small folk wouldn't really, I mean, what would they say right in the end? What would they say?

But I don't know. It's something that I'm actually almost finished writing an essay about. So maybe we'll talk about it in the future but i think that in the show they didn't they kind of cut off their chickens before they hatched them right uh dorn got pretty killed off pretty fast but but a handful of the dorn players are going to king's landing and they are the handful that are very, very much so consumed with vengeance. And I think that Dornish secession is going to play a huge role

in the show. We don't really remember it because Myrcella gets sent off and her death in season five, you know, happens so abruptly. But, I mean, Myrcella is one year older than Tommen, and who's not to say that we'll get Myrcella possibly being put forth as a claimant before a Dornish coup?

Absolutely. I mean, she has to be crowned at some point. Yeah, gold shall be their shrouds. Yeah. He tries to touch Cersei's cheek, but instinctively uses his right hand, and Cersei shies away from Jaime's stump. She says he's scaring her and backs away from him, asking what they've done to him and why he's acting like this. He says they cut off his hand, but she says that he has changed. I agree, Cersei, for the better. She tells him that they'll

talk tomorrow, but that she has Sansa Stark's maids in a tower cell to be questioned and tells him to go see their father, which again, there you have it she's telling him, I'm busy I have to go concoct some sort of story to imprison our brother forever you know? pretty much and Jimmy just goes

I crossed a thousand leagues to come to you and lost the best part of me along the way, don't tell me to leave leave me she repeated, turning away hmm yes their relationship's fucked up but this does make me sad for him little lost golden retriever puppy he don't know where he is yeah i mean like it's fucked up right like the what happened in the scene but also cersei is pretty bad to jamie as well and abusive as well and yeah i mean debatably the worst part of jamie was what was lost along

the way but he doesn't know that yet yeah tywin's guards let jamie in saying that gods are good to give jamie back and jamie's like nope cadeline stark and ruse bolton actually are good to give Jaime back. And Jaime's like, nope, Catelyn, Stark, and Roose Bolton actually are good to have given me back. And he climbs the stairs, finding his father without, thankfully. Tywin's alone in his solar, which is good, because he didn't want to show everyone his missing hand yet. Tywin's like, you're late. Jaime's like, yes. Heard it was quite a party, though. By Dothraki standards.

But actually it wasn't. It wasn't at all. I inserted the line, but also there's only one death. Not nearly exciting enough for the Dothraki. Anyway. Tywin had apparently sent people to look for Jaime, but not too many people so that we could keep it on the down low. And Jaime's like, but did Varys

know this? I'm missing a hand! And no. And then everyone, including Tywin again, they just all assume it was Catelyn Stark for some reason. And Jamie's like, no, there's a twist. It's the goat. It's your goat. Really got my goat. Yeah.

And Tywin's like, well, you know what? And Gregor Clegane took the castle and Vargo Hote is having a very bad time with an infected ear wound. And Jaime's like, ooh, very interesting. I'm very excited to share this with Brienne. And Brienne, people just love telling her gossip. And Brienne's like, I do not care. What am I going to do with this? Especially right now.

She's like, I really don't care right now. Do not care. Jaime is like, so is Vargo Hote dead yet? And it turns out Hote's feet and hands have been cut off, and the other brave companions are dead if they did not leave already. Tywin is swearing vengeance on the leftovers.

Yeah, the companions he left. And it's fascinating to me, right? That this happened even though they didn't know that Hote had cut off Jamie's hand yet. Just coincidentally, people have been cutting off Vargo Hote's feet and hands. Later on, they cut off even more and start feeding it to him,

but whatever, we'll get there. Is there a medical reason why the hands and feet were cut off for infections? Would it have spread to those extremities first? I don't know. Probably not. I, like Jamie Lannister, am not a doctor it also goes to show that like when ruth sent kyburn away with jamie though he did something that actually took a very necessary and valuable asset from hotz lordship

by removing the maester who can tend to things like infections like he did with jamie's obviously and he actually did that a lot right like kyburn was essential because he's like i don't know the brave companions were always up to like some weird shit right they were always cutting things off i had to like deal with a lot of infections and things and now he's not there and then you have tywin here it's interesting then you think about places like Greywater Watch, which, yes, they don't have quite the volume or foot traffic of people, but they survive without a maester, anti-vaxxers, and, um, homeschooled anti-vaxxers.

Maybe. But, like, they survive without a maester somehow, and you think of, like, Jojen definitely had Greywater Fever. So it's interesting. Taking that away from Hoth, he's not really a real, especially of a big, huge building like that, not a real lord at all. And I mean, he didn't have a real maester in a way, too. But Qyburn, it didn't matter that he wasn't really a maester, right? He knew his shit he studied

and then also you have like here now Tywin swearing vengeance he's pretty angry right at Vargo Hote and the companions and he's actually acting exactly the way that Jaime thinks that Jaime should have been acting towards Joffrey's death and murderers

so weird dad things maybe anyway jamie lies and he's like yeah i can totally still use my other hand of course i totally i'm fine i'm fine and so it's like good because gift giving is my love language and boy do I have something to give you. Jamie's like, my love language is quality time. So how about you tell me a story, dad, about how Joffrey died? And so he does. Allegedly, Tyrion did it with a bazillion people looking on, which doesn't really sound his style.

Pretty foolish, Jamie thinks. Podrick and Sansa's maids are taken into custody. The gold cloaks are searching for Sansa. Jaime thinks it's interesting that Tywin threatens to give the king's justice. And also, uh, Tywin would kill his own son? Question mark? Like, Tywin's like, well, yeah, evidence, duh. I mean,

if Tyrion did it, he did it, but damn. Yeah, and Jaime's, like, very sure he's like, I don't think Tyrion did it, he did it, but damn. Yeah, and Jaime's, like, very sure. He's like, I don't think Tyrion did it. You know, like, he's just very clearly like, I don't know about that. And everyone else in his family is very sure that Tyrion did it. And they are very, like, gung-ho about kinslaying. They're like, Jaime, kingslaying might be your thing.

And you know what? You've already done this one, Unforgivable Sin. What if you just, like, did another one? You know, what if you just, like, on top of the incest and breaking your balance, what if you just did one more thing and, like, killed your brother? Just one more. Ugh. Yeah.

Yeah. And Jamie's like, I don't know. I don't know, dog. I don't really... People think it'd be like a do, but it don't't you know what it's the one that breaks your back the one straw you know this is the one kin slaying that just yeah there's that and he's also like i just like don't know that tyrian did it he's trying to be like for example stannis he actually he actually literally points to the example of stannis he's like you know everyone thinks Brienne did it

but I don't slipping some Brienne into this conversation right and he's like defending her against Tywin's accusations as the hero who got him here he's like okay whatever how dare you make fun of my girlfriend dad he's like I don't even know he's basically also like who

her then he's like okay Jaime are you sure you can be a king's guard without a hand and it turns out he's not asking because he doubts jamie's ability it's more because cersei's now open precedent for the king's guard to not serve for life tywin turns around and he basically says to jamie el, would you like to quote? Yeah, he says, so those are your gifts from me, sweet Sansa. Harry the Aryan Winterfell.

That's worth another kiss, don't you think? I don't. Chloe's so mad. Tywin, okay, Tywin actually says, so those are your gifts from me, my sweet Jamie. Casterly Rock, Tommen, and Marjorie Tyrell. That's worth another kiss now, don't you think?

That's better. I don't know about better, but I mean, it's better. He also means to wed Cersei to Oberyn. This is actually not the quote, you guys. Obviously, I'm not reading aloud that quote. We're reading aloud this quote instead. No, Jamie had heard all he could stand. No, more than he could stand. He was sick of it, sick of lords and lies, sick of his father, his sister, sick of the whole bloody business.

No, no, no, no, no. How many times must I say no before you'll hear it? Oberyn Martell, the man's infamous, and not just for poisoning his sword. He has more bastards than Robert, and bets with boys as well. And if you think for one misbegotten moment I would wed Joffrey's widow... Lord Tyrell swears the girl's still a maiden. She can die a maiden, as far as I'm concerned. I don't want her, and I don't want your rock. Trying to wed him to...

I mean, obviously Tywin doesn't know, but he must know. I don't know how Tywin wouldn't know, but like wedding Jaime to like his son's widow... I mean, even for Jaime, that's a little too inbred.

Yeah, it's an interesting, it's not a great move. No. It's a, I mean, that's the thing is like Tywin refuses to admit it to himself, right? Like we know Tywin has to know. He'll never admit it because also, A, pride, because, you know, a lion of the rock. But he can't admit it because then he can he'd have to admit he fails tywin can't admit he fails i mean he can't admit it for the same reason it turns out it's like what 20 years later and tywin still hasn't admitted like hey maybe my son

jamie is a king's guard and like can't inherit casterly Rock which is what Jaime's saying he's like I have a job I'm gonna do my job and Tywin's like what they have like this heavy silence and then Jaime tries to say father yeah and we get this line from Tywin and it's not the first time that Tywin has

been dad of the year today or ever you are not my son Lord Tywin has been dad of the year today or ever you are not my son Lord Tywin turned his face away you say you are the lord commander of the kingsguard and only that very well sir go do your duty so the chapter

with the father son like the Lannisters and the no and all of the things comes full circle and the holyannisters and the Gno and all of the things comes full circle. And the Holy Spirit. Amen. Oh my god. Wow, damn. Tywin, you really don't have a strong supply of kin that actually like you, so what if you cooled it? Quantity of sons Tywin has, two.

Quantity of sons Tywin would not give a fuck if they died, also two. Yeah. of sons taiba would not give a fuck if they died also two yeah i mean he has three kids and i he also would not give a fuck if all three of them died it seems burn your legacy down you know he he wouldn't the extent that like he's like shit who else am i going to order around now right but not like he really cares about them yeah there's also something here at the end ringing with the go on do your duty that tywin gives to jamie of just you know what is his duty now he spent this whole entire trip trying to get back and he finally gets back and like we said it is destroyed it's nothing like

it was supposed to be all that glitters is not gold here for the lannister crew at all and i feel like from here on out jamie's depiction of his duty changes right because as a kingsguard member he was deeply conflicted you might remember from the past like when he killed his king he was gonna light the city on fire I'm not saying anything about Jaime I'm just saying it is kind of the one thing he's not supposed to do

so just kind of funny to me I think it's you know impeccably you're right like cause them saying like absolutely cause he's like all right now you want to fucking do your duty tywin's saying because i guess maybe he thought that maybe tywin completely misunderstood jamie killing aries like this is like be highly speculating and we don't really have text that backs us up but could tywin have misinterpreted

jamie killing aries is like oh yeah my son's still loyal to me and that's why he killed aries as opposed to like aries wasn't gonna blow up the whole fucking city and it was the right thing to do and to an extent i do think the loyalty is a big play into that and i think it was big for jamie it was obviously stop aries from blowing the city up. That is what triggered this entire thing. Like this catalyst was that, but also the fact that he was like, bring me your dad's head.

And this was the one moment that Jamie was like, there's, this was Jamie's no chance and no choice, right? Like Jamie's not on a hero's journey per se anymore because he already had a really big hero moment. He's an ex hero that no, he's an anti hero. No one admits he's a hero's journey per se anymore, because he already had a really big hero moment. He's an ex-hero that no, he's an anti-hero. No one admits he's a hero, but he did the heroic thing already.

And he's still waiting for people to go, you are the hero, Jaime. And Jaime slaying the dragon, so to speak, is such a big, like, I slayed the dragon. I saved my family. And it's just like tyrian right all tyrian's ever wanted is for his dad to look at him and say hey son thanks for doing a good job that's all tyrian needed to hear for like years years of this shit to be undone and jamie it's the same thing too like it's Like, it's never enough. It's never enough for Tywin Lannister, who shits gold. And it never has been.

And Jaime's learning in this chapter, it never can be or will be. Yeah, his father has literally unrealistic expectations. Like, Jaime took an oath in front of everyone. And it's like, what? He's already done this one bad thing you think he's gonna just go like break his oath a second time Jamie's like no I got a chance to actually fucking maybe do it this time do it right I think a lot of that in that oath breaking concept it runs so parallel to what we see with John right now right like John just came back

to what we see with John right now, right? Like, John just came back from his trip beyond the wall, and he just came back and chose to come back to his penal colony. And we see John's oaths in comparison kind of to Jamie's here. Yeah, and, you know, people telling him, you know, do your duty. And there's like, as you said, there's that snark behind it for Jaime of like oh now you want to fucking do it and for Jon it's kind of the same especially as people question later on same as they

question Jaime's yeah I mean his oath was protect the king whatever but same as people question that for Jaime where Jon's like you know what if we attacked Winterfell later on what if we did that? What if we led a whole

ranging south with a bunch of wildlings on the other side of the wall and everyone's like, oh Jon, hang on, that's not your duty, is it? Nope. It's actually not his duty. It's someone's duty as you and Shelley pointed out. It's just not Jon's.

It's not. And I mean, like, I guess that was the thing right for jamie it had to be him because of timing but that's what ned kind of says to jamie right like yeah someone had to do it but it's not supposed to be you yeah i think that's uh something we'll explore as stuff gets back to business over the next few chapters eh i am excited for the next chapter that's one like i said at the top of the app that's gonna be a fun one that's one of my favorite jamie chapters i just think there's so much good fun internal stuff for him to work through and him in new environments with new people is especially what I'm excited for because yes, we already know Cersei

and Tywin is toxic mama drama, but new faces with Jaime is always fun for me. I like getting to hear how he actually ticks, not just the Lannister side of him. We've had him with Steelshanks. Yeah, with Brienne

obviously. Yeah. Well with Brienne, obviously. Yeah. Well, well, I think we did it, gang. I think we hit through Jamie Seven in a Storm of Swords, our 86th A Song of Ice and Fire episode. Damn. I know, right? Holy shit.

How'd we get here? Anyway, we should start back. Wow. Thanks for listening, you guys. Make sure you're subscribed to us on a podcast platform near you, like Podbean, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Google Play, you name it, we're there. Yeah, and if you want to get notified other than subscribing there about when new episodes come out or maybe like you want to send us something you can find us on social media at girls gone canon c-a-n-o-n or you can shoot us an email

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this month we are covering Once Upon a Time in the North from His Dark Materials patreon.com slash girls gone canon and as always I have been Chloe and I have been Eliana goodbye guys thanks for

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