Girls Gone Canon Cast - ASOIAF Episode 87 - ASOS Jaime VIII

Episode Date: April 17, 2020

Jaime reads a book and sits at a table. He calls a couple of other folks, just the Kingsguard, over to the table then deals with the brothers he did not choose.  --- Eliana's twitter: https://twitter.com/arhythmetric Eliana's reddit account: https://www.reddit.com/user/glass_table_girl Eliana's blog: https://themanyfacedblog.wordpress.com/ Chloe's twitter: https://twitter.com/liesandarbor Chloe's blog: www.liesandarborgold.com  Intro by Anton Langhage

Hello and welcome to Girls Gone Canon, A Song of Ice and Fire, Episode 87, Jamie in a Storm of Swords, chapter 8. I am one of your hosts, Chloe. You might know me from the internet as LizaNarber on Twitter or LizaNarberGold.com. And I am another one of your hosts, Eliana. You might know me as GlassTableGirl on Reddit, on the Maester Monthly Podcast, maybe as Arithmetric on Twitter. But now I am just an Animal Crossing Twitter account. Oh my god me too yeah me too i've heard some whispers that there might be animal crossing content in the future i don't know in the present

there was an hour of animal crossing content that went unrecorded before this episode, but you, the listener, don't know that at all, but you should know that I'm very excited about this Jaime chapter. I'm really excited. This chapter is something that is so simple that I think nobody realizes is a powerhouse. I'm excited. Yeah, and as you and I were

discussing, it's very interesting that up until now, right, we don't have jamie interacting with tyrian and continues in this chapter even though tyrian is the backdrop to which all of this is happening right he's like a specter hanging over this chapter yeah i feel really interested in the direction of this chapter after rereading it with the idea of no Tyrion because Jaime's investigating Tyrion on his own terms in this chapter and I think that's something that's less

explored. I think there's a lot of stuff in this chapter that's very less explored by people in the fandom and I want to talk about it at full extent. I think that's going to be fun. I'm very pumped and I'm also excited for next week.

Eliana, do you know what next week is? Well, I found out today. So Chloe, tell us what next week is. It's not Ice and Fire Con because Ice and Fire Con was postponed until Halloween weekend this year due to the old COVID-19. However, we are doing some digital content, I hear, for Ice and FireCon next weekend, and I am going to be a part of it for two different things happening. There's three things I'm doing.

There's a drinking with the small council thing, or a hangout with small council thing on Thursday night. There is Friday night, 425. There's a Westeros and American Musical livestream where people are just gonna kind of do a live mystery science theater kind of thing

of just going through every song in the musical and commentating. And we'll have revolving cast members in and out. It's gonna be really fun if you guys haven't seen that. It's a Hamilton parody musical Game of thrones covering uh season slash books one through three to four ish ish barely four uh it cuts off there really fun though really fun it's like only one legal notice only one cease and desist on one of the

songs i singed uh so after that, the one I'm most excited for, which is hard to say because I'm excited for all of it, is Hanging Out with Hayley from The Manimals. She's the lead singer of The Manimals. They did an album called Seven, which is a Game of Thrones concept album. Every song is about a character. I love all of them. She has a podcast called Drinking Game of Thrones Brooklyn.

It's about Game of Thrones or was, I guess, until we get the House of the Dragon, the Blood of the Dragon, whatever the shit ass show we're all going to watch and complain about is called. Until that show comes out, she's not doing new content, I don't think, except for this. We are going to talk about Season 8 of Game of Thrones. It's kind of like an every-couple-years thing for us now. I'm going to get drunk on the internet and talk about Season 8, so you can't miss it. I'll be reprising my dead ex-side project, Drunk Song of Ice and Fire history, for that. So, can't wait. Can't wait. It doesn't have to be history you know

I think that all the time but it's like here I am with you I can't I'm stuck in the middle with you I'm so sorry you wifed me you wifed me one of our favorite people one of our friends Rachel

Rachel Gomes sent us an email about Jamie Sixx and you know i eliana's usually our shakespearean one right like eliana you grasp those themes quicker than i do love a good shakespeare but it's just not my first language right or my second it's like my third but we talked about the taming of the shrew during the bear pit episode i think it was right or maybe it was last i don't know whatever episode it was we recently talked about taming of the shrew during the bear pit episode i think it was right or maybe it was last i don't know whatever episode it was we recently talked about taming of the shrew in regards to cersei and brienne and jamie just kind of some fun parallels and rachel sent us some stuff about the scottish play it's important that you all know that i will not say oh that's right i forgot

you don't say it i was in it i was in it i was in it i well so you know the fact that You don't say it. I was in it. I will say it. How could I say it? I was in it. Well, so, you know, the fact that you don't say it is probably why you get two bottles of vodka and I don't. Because I'm a good person and you're not. I will read aloud this email. And I disagree with it, you not being fluent. That was like a really

great call as you were talking about the taming of the shrew and you definitely brought up other things before in regards to Shakespeare but anyways Rachel Gomes slash Gomez unsure says anyways I have some thoughts about Jamie 6 I listened to both

your episode and History of Westeros episodes about this chapter and about the same time so Jamie's fever dream has been on my mind as a high school English teacher I've taught like Beth for years I said it! After listening to both your pods, I, for the first time, found a possible connection between the two.

From Jamie's dream, around him stood a dozen tall, dark figures in cowled robes that hid their faces. In their hands were spears. Who are you? He demanded of them. What business do you have in Casterly Rock? This scene reminded me immediately of Macbeth's second encounter with the three witches, an act four, scene one.

Witches, show his eyes and grieve his heart, come like shadows, so depart. A show of eight kings, the last with a glass in his hand, ghost of Banquo following. Then Macbeth says, thou art too like the spirit of Banquo. Down, thy crown, dustier mine. Eyeballs and thy hair, thou other gold-bound brow, is like the first. A third is like the former, filthy hags. Why do you show me this? A fourth, start, eyes.

What, will the line stretch out to the crack of doom? Another yet, a seventh, I'll see no more. And yet the eighth appears, who bears a seventh, I'll see no more, and yet the eighth appears, who bears a glass, which shows me many more, and some I see, that two-fold balls and troubled scepters carry, horrible sight. Now I see tis true, for the blood-boltered Banquo smiles upon me and points at them for his. Rachel says whenie described seeing the shadowy figures around him i was reminded of mcbath seeing a line of kings behind banquo's ghost children and succession are an issue for both mcbath and jamie though for different reasons i wonder if jamie's seeing the ghost of the true

he could have had or maybe he's seeing the former lords of casterly rock that are waiting for him to prove himself worthy rachel talks about how she feels it was an interesting parallel, whether or not it was intentional on George's part. What say you about Macbeth? Chloe. I'm cursing our podcast with every moment I live.

I'll remember this. No, I think that's a really, really, really apt comparison. I see a lot of comparisons with Stannis, right, in this regard. And not as many with Jaime, I think. Jaime, in comparison to Banquo's kind of ghost appearing and following around, that is kind of one of those fundamental storytelling aspects in general. You know what I mean?

Jaime's very much so haunted by the ghost of his past. We've obviously already lived it and seen it from the Weirwood dream. It's not the last time we'll live it or see it from him either. I'm excited to see where it goes forward. And I do think it was a good connection. We know that George does pay attention to Shakespeare, whether or not he uses it. Sometimes he uses it in the opposite manner he said before in So Spake Martins for example like Ned and Azshara's relationship someone asked is this like Romeo and Juliet and he said no so sometimes he doesn't use it sometimes he goes the opposite direction from things like that but I also think that some of these tragic characters especially

like House Lannister oh god it's a tragic downfall house as we've discussed house targaryen eliana's done amazing work in discussing some of the tragedy and some of this mysticism that kind of surrounds them and how each of them handles it separately in different times i don't know i don't know what's gonna happen with those uh ghosts jamie what are you going to do? Maybe confront them, hopefully. But yeah, I loved this email. I don't think I would have thought to connect these.

And thinking of Jamie as a sort of Macbeth figure, especially in the context of the 93 letter, but still playing with that idea of looking at the past and that succession, and especially because Jamie did kill a king. And the 93 letter has him taking the throne. jamie's gone down a different path but there's definitely some things there and george has woven in macbeth in many different ways in this story whether it's like as sort of easter eggs right with the way that it goes down in asha gray joy's chapter with the branches and the woods moving and that's sort of george's more subtle take on the burnham woods moving like in dunstanane

tolkien's like magic trees yeah so sorry not magic trees ants um i know it's different anyway but like they're all you know george's even the very structure and the way that he approaches things very much weaving these ideas in. So I think it's such a great catch. We all know the main core of Aeswaf will always revolve around the heart and conflict with

itself, right? Like Faulkner style. And I think never lose sight of that especially in Jamie 8. Jamie 8 is a chapter of a man that's very tired. But before Jamie 8 came some other tired people after Jamie 7. And we missed some things. Let's cover them in our lightning round.

In Davos 6, Davos faces Azor Ahai's judgment in freeing an innocent and reads a plea sent from the north. Jon 8. After surviving two of the Free Folk's attacks, the wall is Jon's? Hmm. Arya 12. In dreams she runs with wolves

but by day she learns the gift of mercy Tyrion 9 Tyrion's fate lies in the hands of a viper but unfortunately, sneks do not have hands nor feet I'm glad that you got to read this one Are you glad that I just

changed it entirely? Kind of, a little offended offended we'll learn the end so that brings us to jamie eight in jamie eight a storm of swords jamie thumbs through the pages of the white book wondering what his legacy will be will he be known as the king slayer as golden hand the just and will he be able to preserve Brienne from King's Landing stench? Let's jump in and find out. A white book sat on a white table in a white room. What kind of fucking riddle is this? The White Sword Tower holds the armory in the sleeping cells of Jaime's brothers. I'm

sorry, it just sounds like little blue man in the blue house. Turns out I don't know the lyrics. See, I was thinking Madeline. You know, 12 girls in a line. One in a row. I was very into the Madeline fandom. I was a stand. The stand

line. Jamie had stayed in actually one of these sorts of sleeping cells for 18 years, but this morning, he's moving up to the Lord Commander's apartment at the top floor. We love drawing those parallels between past POVs, right? We've moved on, of course,

from Theon and Jon and all of these characters, but gone but never forgotten in our hearts until Tiwau. And this kind of gives me some strong parallels to Jon acquiring the wall, right? He is just given the wall in his last chapter. He's told, hey, the wall's yours. Everyone else is pretty much gone, dead, you know, indisposed.

And this is the first time Jaime's taking the Lord Commander's tower. Only, of course, in the White Sword Tower. The Lord Commander Tower in the north, however, is stone. It catches fire in the White Attack with Othar Flowers, and Jaor moves into the King's Tower instead. So Jon never truly lives in the Lord Commander's Tower, much like Jaime hadn't until now. I thought that was very interesting to think on

right it was it's also interesting because like john ends up he has a slightly different circumstance where he's like man i gotta deal with like stannis and like when he becomes lord commander eventually and he's like you know what stannis you take you take the fancy digs and gives him the the knight tower because like you said lord commander's tower is kind of a wreck and then john actually instead and it's both a parallel and not right because jamie as we see throughout this chapter sees all these like lord commanders perform as sort of mentors he's like wow amazing and john doesn't take lord commander's tower but goes into donald noye's quarters his mentor so jamie's room has a view of the sea and on his way to the tower

he thinks you know maybe he'll like that and i thought that was kind of a powerful moment for jamie's pov because not only has george given him this voice right by giving him a pov but this is also kind of the first time jamie's ever gotten to think about what he might like. Right? Like, he's never had a choice to think, huh, I might like the sea. He's never gotten to think that. This is Jamie looking out and going, hmm, I could like the sea. You're right.

I've never thought about that. Jamie's like, the only thing that we know for sure he likes is Cersei and fighting. And he goes where those things tell him to go. It's sad. It is. He reads through the white book while he's waiting. He thinks about how uncomfortable he is. His sword is on the wrong side, his right hip, and his Kingsguard clothing doesn't fit anymore either.

It's too loose. hip and his kingsguard clothing doesn't fit anymore either it's too loose he'd been spending his days at tyrian's trial although he'd gone unnoticed by everyone in the room even tyrian who is he maybe it's better to be unnoticed than this time you know from one kingslayer to another but yeah like i like this line where where Jaime thinks he feels as though he's a stranger in his own home with all of those things going on and again it the backdrop is Tyrion's trial and I do think that makes it very meaningful because truthfully right now I think both brothers kind of feel like I'm a stranger to my family in my own home one uh who who am I who are these people now the other they're trying to have me executed. Interesting.

And Jamie, for the most part, has actually almost always felt welcome, except for the part where last chapter he really let down his dad for the first time ever. He did before, right? But time was like, whatever, we can reverse it. Turns out he finds out, oh, Jamie doesn't

want to. But anyways, you have both brothers feeling pushed out right now. And then, of course, the clothes reverse it turns out he finds out oh jamie doesn't want to but anyways you have both brothers brothers feeling pushed out right now and then of course like the clothes not fitting right i mean you know going back again to ned and king's landing we don't really need to have a whole fashion hour for this we can have a fashion minute it speaks for itself yeah it absolutely speaks for itself i'm different we have this passage. I thought it was kind of powerful. His son was dead. His father

had disowned him and his sister. She had not allowed him to be alone with her once after the first day in the royal sept where Joffrey lay amongst the candles. That's a lot to think about. Everything just kind of fell away at once. This is a man that's come back from war.

He's been through hell and back and he came back to a whole world changed. Yeah, he came back. It's all changed. He's isolated, but, you know, it kind of lends credence to some of the things you were talking about between that interaction between him and Cersei last chapter, but also like... Cersei, is it that she just didn't see a need for him anymore also as well? Like, it's all so wrapped up. Anyway. Yeah, and we're definitely going to get into some of Cersei's machinations and manipulations as we greet some of his new Kingsguard members,

right, that he didn't know before. But first, we survey the room. White hangings and shields and two crossed swords adorn the hearth. And the chair at his table is an old black oak with thin leather cushions. And I love that the wood was described here i always think it's important when george describes what the wood is not important but just pay attention like oh he took the time so we should take the time so we're gonna i do want you to know that when we were first writing out this episode and discussing what kind of themes were happening with this i took the liberty of finding every single mention of oak and Iron in A Song of Ice and Fire. Really? And what percentage was dedicated to what POVs. I haven't shared it with you.

I should. It's a spreadsheet. There's two pages. There's one that has a pivot table and- There's one that has a pivot table. For the most part, it's like Starks and tyrian that have oak and iron in their arcs and davos which i thought was kind of interesting just kind of spoke to kind of the environment they were in and what they were about a lot of oak and iron doors and the king's tower where stannis gets to

stay per john in uh the north of the wall and also where jr decided to go move his lord commandership to after you know kind of lord commander tower was fucked is oak and iron doors as well interesting i mean the iron makes sense right especially when you think of the first man but for tyrian i mean that he needs a lot of protection guard him well Tyrion actually has a lot of mentions of Oak and Iron too and I think there's gotta be something more there but I'm not sure Jamie reflects on those who have held

position of Lord Commander before him Barristan, Gerald Hightower Aemon the Dragon Knight Rhyam Redwyne, the Demon of Derry Duncan the Tall, Pale Griffin, Alan Connington. Yeah, so the first thing that I actually thought was like, holy shit, this is an old-ass

chair. It must be very well made, considering that it's oak. Oak must be very, very good. Like, this is a goddamn antique. But also, you know, it speaks once more to Jaime and that idea of legends and songs as he thinks of like, wow, all these people have sat in it.

And I'm like, yeah, but how much better are they than you, right? We don't know much about the Demon of Derry, but the name doesn't bode super well. Or Alan Connington, other than I guess he's super pale right imagine if that's your descriptor like yeah he is pale anyways but well you have like what the red ronin and i don't understand how the conningtons are just like a bird of a feather yeah they're like you need some sun you've got some red hair like all the rest of you anyways. Don't get your feathers ruffled, Jon. Oh, your feather fur, anyways. Yeah, but we know quite a bit

about all these other Kingsguard, and they were also flawed, right? With Jeff from Not A Cast, we've discussed quite a bit Barristan in depth and his faults and where he fell through when it came to serving Robert and defending children

and we also spoke about it in barriston's chapters right uh gerald hightower just stood there and was like yeah i don't fucking know like while his queen was abused and listened to it you see that uh coming through in jamie's chapter this time rwine. Good night, but turns out he was a shithand. And Dunk, who we find out may not have been a knight at all. Well, we don't find out. That's something that people pointed out after close readings of Dunk and Egg.

Yeah. It's interesting that all of these characters are very flawed. And look at Dunk. He may or may not have left his king to die, right? It's possible. While his king was trying to set off wildfire caches, maybe. Absolutely.

Or other sort of caches. I mean, Dunk was maybe an enabler in some manners and not so much in others. But maybe, you know, you't let like your child's yeah man yeah targaryens and prophecy man um anyways so it's so shrouded right now what it is no it is it is uh will we ever get the other sorry i should not think about this happy stop it don't even say it don't even say it i don't even want you i hurt he wonders how he could land in the line of 20 good men and uh just kidding it was six other men ish and he surveys the room when together the lord commander sits at the top of the table with a top like a shield brothers three to each side and the legs of the table are carved like stallions the shield that sits on these carved legs is made of old

weirwood and it makes me wonder when they would have made the shield table you pointed out this chair has been through a lot and i'm guessing the table has as well um i love that it's a white weirwood shield for the Kingsguard's duties. And I don't know, maybe it's a headcanon now, but if Dunk had it carved maybe and brought from Winterfell, I don't know. That'd be cool. That'd be cool.

It's like my little headcanon that maybe that's going to be something that we hear of. Or something gifted. Yeah, exactly. Something gifted maybe from whoever, maybe a she-wolf of Winterfell. Like the Statue of Liberty. There was something else from Fire and Blood that I thought was really appropriate with all this talk about the White Sword Tower. And it was that, if you blink, you would have missed it in the Jaehaerys and Alysanne stuff.

But Princess Sarah Targaryen, when she was ten years old, sneaks into the White Sword Tower, steals the white cloaks, and dyes them all pink. Sarah Targaryen's, like, one of the best. I stan. Yeah, same. Yeah. She deserved a better dad.

She said it. Goddamn. He was a great dad to his sons, terrible dad to his daughters. Why do you think that was? Who can tell? Whoever knows. No one ever knows these things, you know? The man's an enigma.

Anyways, Jamie surveys the White Book next. And we have this quote of, The Book of the Brothers was its formal name, but more often it was simply called the White Book. Within the White Book was the book of the brothers was its formal name but more often it was simply called the white book within the white book was the history of the king's guard every knight who'd ever served had a page to record his name and deeds for all time on the top left hand corner of each page was drawn the shield the man had carried at the time he was chosen inked in rich colors down in the bottom right corner was the shield of the Kingsguard, snow-white,

empty, pure. The upper shields were all different, the lower shields were all the same. In the space between were written the facts of each man's life and service. The heraldic drawings and illuminations were done by septons, sent from the great sept of Baelor three times a year, but

it was the duty of the Lord Commander to keep the entries up to date. My now so this is dumb but it i it stresses me out when i think that every single person only gets one page and you're just like at the whims of each person's like individual penmanship like okay first of all what if someone did a lot of stuff and it filled too much of a page what if they needed a second page but you've already started someone else's fucking page on that page right because you have to include the other people in the king's guard anyways also what if the lord commander has awful handwriting how are you going to know what happened in history i saw this hilarious meme on like i don't know facebook or twitter

and someone was like i asked my doctor cousin or something like what, or like pharmacist cousin, what this doctor had prescribed. It looked like the letter P, a straight line, and then another, like, vertical line at the end. Turns out it said paracetamol. Like, what if the Lord Commander is like that? What if the Lord Commander has really big handwriting? And we kind of address this a little later in the chapter. what if the lord commander has really big handwriting and we kind of address this a little later in the chapter and like it's also interesting to me that's kind of just presumed that whoever becomes lord commander of the king's guard is going to be literate especially in the

context of someone like dunk and yeah you know it reminds me again of like the the discussion about the false meritocracy of the night's watch yeah Yeah, it makes me wonder, like, well, and okay, so we know that it was like a totally gilded thing that if you were a second son, you know, if you were the spare and you weren't needed and the heir already was showing good promise of, you know, shooting that sperm up there and bringing out some heirs, you know what I mean? Like, if she had birth and hips and you married good and that dowry was already back and forth good and you'd gotten all the perks out

of the way i'm just saying like that second son's not needed right you just throw it somewhere where's a good place where you don't have to pay for it right so uh sending like a super lordly knightly kid over to the night's watch is a practiced and honored tradition so yeah it probably is presumed that the king's guard like i mean think of how much shit dunk got likely as a king's guard member we know how much shit he got as a hedge knight i can't imagine it'd be any better for the first few years. And he got all the way up to commander. And it does bring the question, like, did he write pages for his men?

And, you know, you talk about the handwriting and we are going to get into that in this episode. There is a quote really soon about handwriting in this, but I would love to see a cute scene with Dunk and Egg teaching him how to read a la like Davos Shireen in the show. I don't know.

Be cute. I can't even remember if like Dunk is literate or not they they don't i don't remember it um for sure but yeah as you said like second sons but also i mean we do have a a track record of a couple of first born sons like jb i think barrison right also gave up his lands to become part of the king's guard but his cousin now has his lands. Yeah, the people who had the best training. You know, as Donald Noy points out to Jon, like, yeah, Jon, you're fucking great at beating everyone, but also, like, you literally taught martial arts. So, also, coming back to Kingsguard vs. Night's Watch, the book is interesting because the Night's Watch tend to be very anonymous.

They're a large order, right? And you kind of just, there are a few that are remembered. A lot of them are quite infamous, like the Night's King. But, you know, as opposed to the Kingsguard, there's so few of them. They all get their own goddamn page, I guess. What if you need one page? Anyways, and they're remembered for protecting just one guy in the realm versus the Night's Watch, right? They're all expected.

Many of them go and they die nameless. So many people and they're protecting everyone. Anyway. Jamie thinks that he would need to add in some lost brothers, right, that he has not kind of gotten time to add to the White Book. Sir Mandan Moore, Preston

Greenfield, Sandra Clegane's brief but bloody experience of the Kingsguard, he calls it, and he would start new pages for Balin Swan, Osmund Kettleblack, and Loras Tyrell, after he summons a Septon to draw their shields, which I'm like, just draw a stupid flower.

Get over with. Jamie turns the page to Barristan Selmy's It's three wheat stalks on a brown field, and turning the top of it, and Jamie finds amused and surprised that Barristan somehow took the time to write his own dismissal

before he left. It's so top-tier petty. But it's amazing. So baller. It is. What a power move. Honestly, I cannot take that away from Barristan, and I'm sure we've talked about it

back then. We've read this aloud way before. All of his great feats. We had an actual really chilling Barristan intro. Yes. If you recall where we were all like, here are Barristan's accomplishments because it is like the most fuck you

resume. Like, I did everything. Here's my dick on the table. He squired for Manfred Swan, speaking of Balin Swan. Named the Bold at squired for manfred swan speaking of balen swan named the bold at age 10 for appearing as a mystery knight he was defeated by duncan targaryen the prince of dragonflies slew maelys the monstrous in the nine penny kings war defeated lor mel long lance and cedric storm named kingsguard age 23 by Gerald Hightower, played the bouncer at the tourney of the Silver Bridge,

Victor in the melee at Maidenpool, Defiance of Duskendale, heroics that we've talked about, he avenged Gwaine Gaunt and rescued Lady Jane Swan from the Kingswood Brotherhood, he slayed Simon Toyne, defeated the Smiling Knight, defeated the Mystery Knight

Black Shield at the Old Town Tourney. He was the sole champion of the Tourney at Storm's End. He unseated a bunch of big-name characters that you see in the background, right? Bobby B., Oberyn, Leighton Hightower, John Connington, Jason Malister, uwu if you're Eliana, and Rhaegar. Honestly, that is a lot of big name characters. It's funny that

Oberyn was there when I was just there to hang out, party. Actually, though, probably. Thank god I was knocked out. He was also wounded in the Battle of the Trident. And then, of course, as we all know, named Lord Commander by Robert.

Actually, in fact, when I picked this up, right, with wounded in the Battle of the Trident, we're transitioning to the time that Barristan actually starts writing his own entry. He brought Cersei to her wedding. He led an attack on, actually, I don't know how to pronounce this, Wyke? Wyke? I call it Wyke. Wyke makes sense. I change it based on my mood whenever I'm reading it.

Yeah. During Balin's Rebellion, champion of the tourney at King's Landing in his 57th year. I've never had to say it aloud. And he was dismissed at age 21 by King Joffrey I. He's like the first and I hope the fucking last

Blandister for reasons and I hope the fucking last Blandister for reasons of I'm a fucking teenage prick or my mommy and her dad said so also allegedly age and Barristan's like fuck that age shit I'm gonna fight

everyone go right and then leave. I like that and we get this line after go write and then leave. I liked that. And we get this line after this, this harkens back to kind of to what you were saying about the writing style of the Lord Commander and how it could affect the pages, which to be fair, we don't have a page limit,

Eliana. So it stresses me out. I know, but like a game of Thrones, the source material for A Song of Ice and Fire, if you recall, they showed that you can have several pages because Barristan's page was like 80 pages, rightfully so. It just stresses me out because, okay, so whenever I start a new notebook, I am a weirdo and I don't write on the very first page. Sometimes I don't write on the second page because I'm like, I don't know,

what if I write something fucking stupid at least i'll still like have those clean pages and i can like anyways i start like two two to three pages in so the passage goes the earlier part of sir barrison's storied career had been entered by sir gerald hightower in a big forceful hand. Selmy's own smaller and more elegant writing took over the account of his wounding on the trident. I thought this might be interesting that this was written in two hands, and Jamie's is already written in two hands. It's written by Gerald Hightower, and then his page is written by Barrison Selmy later on and I kind of wonder if this is foreshadowing that maybe someone with a smaller more elegant writing style might take over Jamie's account

in the end. No uh no connection to be made here or anything they're really I it's merely speculation there's not much but it did ring out to me. It's something that really just made me go, huh, that's interesting. The different handwritings. It makes me wonder about who will live, die, and tell your story, which is a Hamilton quote. Who lives, who dies, who tells

your story. And it won't surprise me if Brienne does. There were no real supporting quotes for this, though though so it is speculation I regret to inform you also so it is interesting to think about like how people present other people's stories right of those underneath them versus like oh how much do I boast when you write your own page but also like man when you think about it Jamie has to write all these other people's histories with his non- dominant hand. Yeah. It's hard.

That's all. No, absolutely agreed. It's not easy at all. And now he has to write about dudes he doesn't even like. In the non-dominant hand. Yeah, with his non-dominant hand. And he's sitting here scrolling past absolute legends. And A,

his confidence is obviously shot to shit right now for many various reasons if you've been listening to our podcast you guys know and I don't know poor Jamie but his own page feels completely scarce he's like wow not only am I missing

a hand here now I'm like reading that I haven't done fuck all with my entire life life sucks yes absolutely and uh what his says it's like what one third of what bernison says and we can just read it a lot of jamie's own page was scanned by comparison sir jamie of house lannister okay great his fucking name. Firstborn son of Lord Tywin and Lady Joanna of Casterly Rock. Served against the Kingswood

Brotherhood as squire to Lord Sumner Crakehall. Knighted in his 15th year by Sir Arthur Dayne of the Kingsguard for valor in the field. Chosen for the Kingsguard in his 15th year by King Ares II Targaryen. During the sack of King's Landing,

slew Ares II at the foot of the Iron Throne, thereafter known as the Kingslayer. This is literally halfway through his paragraph. Big total shift. Thereafter known as the Kingslayer, pardoned for his crime by King Robert I Baratheon. Okay, to be fair, a lot of them actually have this pardoned by Robert Baratheon in theirs. Served in the honor guard that brought his sister, the Lady Cersei Lannister, to King's Landing to wed King Robert. Champion in the tourney, held at King's Landing on the occasion of their wedding. Summed up like that that his life seemed a rather scant and mingy thing sir barrison could have recorded a few of his other attorney victories at least yeah but your entire family could have not fired him and now you have his job and you

were not the most king's guardiest is all right like you got this just because you're the last one standing so i'm just putting it out there jamie i also was like thinking about it in the context of what barrison's resume says for barrison it's like straight up won the tourney and jamie's like but could you put like some of the individual matches that i won he's like could you put you know like let's say let's say you got i'm gonna try and make a sports analogy here, right? Let's say, you know, you got the whole championship, right? Barristan won the championship. He won the Super Bowl. And Jamie's like, but could you talk about the single game that I won that was not the Super Bowl?

That's what he wants. I think there's an obvious split, right? Like, Chosen for the Kings's garden is 15th year by king Ares II Targaryen that is when the Gerald Hightower part ends and the Barristan part starts with the sack of king's landing yeah and maybe it's Gerald Hightower's

fault maybe he could have been better at keeping up with Jamie's shit and writing things down but he was busy though guarding Lyanna Stark in a tower. That, and also maybe he didn't love writing. Yeah, I mean, writing with

your hands sucks, so. It hurts for some people. Thanks. Yeah, so, he's just like, I don't know. I don't feel like doing this. Anyway, turns out, yeah, Geralt didn't add many more deeds either there's nothing really about the kingswood or about the smiling knight and jamie's like i

remember the smiling knight he thinks that smiling knight was a madman he was cruelty and chivalry all piled together and i'm like isn't that the point of most knights according to jamie lannister and i guess you know he's gonna talk about that in like two paragraphs but whatever well i mean yes and no right like we talked about it last time but jamie says that's how all knights are but what if they aren't what if he's just projecting oh he absolutely is because they like in two paragraphs we'll get to it we'll get to it yeah yeah so he remembers his sword who arthur dane had put so many notches through the Smiling Knight's sword with his own sword with Dawn, letting him fetch a new one even by the end of the battle. It's that white sword of yours I want, the robber knight told him as they resumed, though he was bleeding from a dozen wounds by then. Then you shall have it, sir, the Sword of the Morning replied, and made an end of it.

You'll have it, sir, the Sword of the Morning replied, and made an end of it. I just want to say that between this and what Ned remembers of the Tower of Joy exchange, what is it with Arthur? He's just super into one-liners, Arthur Danes. Oh, yeah. Well, he's such a badass. I guess. I can't help but feel like he must have practiced these.

In the mirror? Yeah. He's like, this is part of what it means to be a Kingsguard, right? I gotta practice my delivery. Jamie thinks that, you know, these were simpler times and men and their swords were made of

finer steel. And he's like, but was I just 15 and young? I love that, though though especially with your donald noy comparison earlier in talking about john's mentors and taking his mentors chambers in comparison to jamie men and swords were made of finer steel kind of rings that donald noy comparison right with the baratheon brothers oh uh yeah absolutely and that's a great point because i was like thinking about that a little with uh loris's description of friendly's armor later on not it wasn't like that deep i was like

interesting because like loris is all like it was the best daily you could get but yeah donald noy like talking about the bratton brothers but also about the people in the night's watch in general so yeah the institution all of jamie's heroes are dead before him the sword of the morning the smiling knight the white bull prince lewin oswell went with his black humor earnest john dairy simon toyn his kingswood brotherhood bluff old summoner craig, and me, that boy I was. When did he die, I wonder? When I donned the white cloak? When I opened Ares's throat?

That boy had wanted to be Sir Arthur Dane but someplace along the way he had become the smiling knight instead. I love that. It reminds me actually, off the cuff here, it reminds me of Theon in a way, with Smiler. Yes. But I do love that this discussion is such a

precursor to Jaime getting his sword and giving Brienne a sword, thinking I can still be glorious, I can be chivalric, I can still be close to Arthur Dayne, because Arthur Dayne wasn't perfect, as we've discussed before and you know jamie could still be a knight even in this light right absolutely i like that callback

yeah and you know coming back to it like uh what we were saying about the night's watch right it's a different energy and vibe and i think absolutely reverberates throughout the rest of Jaime's thoughts of this chapter but Jon 13 in A Dance of Dragons there's this line of the Night's Watch needed leaders with the wisdom of Maester Aemon, the learning of Samwell Tarly, the courage of

Corrin Halfhand, the stubborn strength of the Old Bear, the compassion of Donald Noy. What it had instead was them and he's referring to uh offal yarwick bowen marsh and celador but of course also john right and you have jamie kind of wondering like how the fuck did i get here and in charge and he's also changed right same as john jamie's wondering like when did that boy die and for jamie like that in John both of them that boy has died at similar ages around the ages of like 15 right as Jamie

notes but we don't actually know for either of them and for Jamie he's still trying to figure out like was the man ever born John unsure you know he doesn't know because adolescence is hard and weird and puberty is really

difficult when you're facing down supernatural threat i'm sure but you know you also have this interesting comparison because like jamie is romanticizing so many of these men and they are long gone for a lot of them right because jamie's older whereas the people that john misses not all of them like were dead so long ago some of them he still kind of thinks might be alive, theoretically alive. He doesn't know Aemon's dead yet. Sam's obviously alive. It's all very fresh for him, but that same idea is that the Night's Watch is no longer what it once was

in terms of those heroes that Jon grew up with, same as the heroes that Jaime grew up with all those years ago. Yeah, and it extremely feels like the Night's Watch, especially because as we're about to chat, Jamie might be ignoring some warning signs from these men as well, right? Just like John. And trying to change things in the quote-unquote watch, much like

John as well. Yeah. Well, Osmond Kettleblack is the first to arrive to the meeting, and it's very awkward for both of them. We get a line. He gave Jamie a grin, as if they were old brothers in arms. Hmm. He tells Jamie that he looks much more like himself, all cleaned up, saying,

Oh, I'd have known you at once. And Jamie's like, Yeah, I doubt that. Jamie had been bathed shaved and no longer looked like outlaw country but he didn't look like golden man Jamie Lannister either he's thinner hollower older the five other brothers file in and he commands them to stand by their seats asking who guards the king Sir Osney and Osfred guard tommen osman's two very trustworthy brothers and garland tyrell another very trustworthy brother is guarding him as well so i thought it was kind of funny that today on twitter very coincidental right that? That Aziz of History of Westeros tweeted today.

Hidden joke example number. Insert number 120398 because, you know, he's like making jokes. And he goes, the Tyrells and Littlefinger murdered Joffrey. When Jaime returns to King's Landing just after, he has the Kingsguard meet and has other non-Kingsguard watch over Tommen in the meantime. Who are these others? Two Kettleblacks, agents of Littleingsguard, watch over Tommen in the meantime. Who are these others? Two Kettleblacks, agents of Littlefinger, and a Tyrell. The Tyrell among the two most likely to have put the poison in Joffrey's cup. In fact, Jaime has almost no chance since there's also a Tyrell and a Kettleblack in the Kingsguard already,

both of whom try to pin it on innocent people. Yeah, that's some framework we're definitely going to talk about being played with, especially for Loras here with the blaming the innocent. Guilty on accident, but actually innocent. I don't know. But I think it's funny that History of Westeros is doing their Valar Rereadis and they're doing a few chapters at a time. So they are actually catching us. We're kind of going neck and neck as we get through jamie and i think we're gonna lap them soon but it's like every week i feel like we get real close and all of a sudden they're doing a chapter that we're on again and i love it

we find a lot of really fun things like this yeah i thought that was just like a funny like thing to point out here in this moment um especially because like jamie's actual brother not his brothers in arms right his actual brother has in fact spent the past few books keeping joffrey alive despite joffrey's best fucking efforts and impulses to get everyone to want to kill him and finally you know joffrey's efforts pay off and i guess to an extent right because it's the king's guard these are jam Jaime's new family. And I mean, like, let's be real. Turns out all of Jaime's families are dysfunctional, including the Kingsguard.

Yeah, a bit. And these guys are totally, like you said, no different. Boros and Meryn sit to his right. And Osmund, Baelin, and Loras sit to the left. An empty chair is left for aries oakheart that sits between boros and marin the old kingsguard and the new seem to be separated and jamie goes what does it mean what does it mean i mean obviously it means the new kingsguard are kind of trash and the old are dying but the usual no but i love that it's kind of meta that he's like this probably means something which is kind of what he does with everything in his life right

like hmm this must mean something but yeah here he is soldiering on yeah he thinks about history and the times that the king's guard was divided because he's like this is a risky this is a risky group especially like in the dance of the dragons and we have this quote of was that something he needed to fear as well it seemed queer to him to sit in the lord commander seat where baristan the bold had sat for so many years and even queerer to sit here crippled god don't tell him i said it but brunanby fish is baristan defecting to agon theory all the time feels like it could happen now and I don't know

if that's just the quarantine talking or like if it's real. Anyways, I do want to talk Dance of the Dragons. Patrons, Stranger Tear and Up have our four parts

of the Dance of the Dragons covering everything in all published books from Fire and Blood to the World of Ice and Fire through the main books. And we got a ton of new info in Fire and Blood regarding Kristen Cole and Rhaenyra, right? Originally Rhaenyra, the heir, just to remind you guys, the actual heir. the actual heir uh her sworn sword and shield was kristin cole and he changes sides becomes her stepmom a scheming mother clucking biatch allison hightower i just can't stand her it becomes her stepmom's sworn shield instead kristin just changes sides and then he becomes the king

maker he convinces agon too to pursue the crown and crowns him with Aegon the Conqueror's crown. And there are further details in Fire and Blood that include like a spicy, zesty, steamy, sexy take from Mushroom that might be ridiculous or a lie because literally everything Mushroom says is like 50-50 chance of being true, right? Like absolutely down the middle. Could be true, could be bullshit. Mushroom claims, you know, Rhaenyra and Criston had some sort of relationship, and Criston was spurned by Rhaenyra, and possibly even they banged it out. Something happened between them, and suddenly they stopped hanging. And of course, Rhaenyra ends up marrying Laenor Velaryon, and then fathers Harwin Strong of Harrenhal's

children instead, which we kind of know, right? Like that's kind of a truth, but I think it's canon. I think we all know it's canon. Kristen goes on to beat Harwin up in a melee at a tourney and Laenor's implied lover, Joffrey Lawnmouth, as well is kind of like gets the crap beaten out of him, basically revealing that, hey, I know what's up with you, Rhaenyra. I know your whole thing. The jig is up. I think this holds some really heavy Cersei parallels, maybe?

I've spoken about a couple different things from the dance, like Rhaenyra being a direct kind of sandbox version of Cersei and Daenerys. But here, more than ever, it kind of makes you want to apply this to Jaime, even with his eventual split from Cersei and Daenerys. But here, more than ever, it kind of makes you want to apply this to Jaime, even with his eventual split from Cersei. It's a big role of a Kingsguard choosing to follow another queen or king. So, and obviously, like I said, Bryn and Befish has a great series on Aegon Blackfyre.

I mean, Aegon VI, he's a Blackfyre. And, uh, you know, Barristan could defect. That could be really what this is about. I think that's a strong Kristen Cole parallel, but this right here feels the internal internal struggle

Kristen Cole. I mean, it could even be Jaime. We don't even know how Yeah. Who knows what was real in the bad show or not. Especially with those Chris and Cole lover parallels. But for now,

Jamie's thinking of his brothers as Tom and Seven and surveys them. Maren and Blount he thinks are adequate fights but both are cruel and vapid. Yes, Maren sucks. Balan Swan is decent enough, acceptable enough background. Kingsguard cop character.

And then we have Loras, who in quotes is supposedly all a knight should be. And then, of course, Osmund Kettleblack, the stranger to Jaime of the group. And I quote stranger. It's on purpose. You know, Nauticast is doing their live streams on Mondays, talking about Catelyn. They're wrapping up their Catelyn handful of chapters.

Turns out following one character's POV chapter at a time is pretty cool, Eliana. Just saying. Anyways. Yeah. Apparently following POV chapters is pretty cool i hear but i hear uh catalan in the chapters that noticast is discussing in a clash of kings there is kind of the moment when she's praying right and she ignores the stranger she talks about all the different

aspects of the new gods she sees the mother and the the father and she sees the maiden and all these characters she sees in her children and her dead husband and in Renly and Stannis and in Brienne even, but she doesn't see the stranger and she doesn't pray to the stranger. It's the one she avoids and it's the one that comes for her, right? Especially the night of Renly's death. And for Jaime in this moment, Osmund is literally introduced as the stranger that he doesn't know and doesn't see he's like oh it's the most strange person in the group to him and of course

as we know Osmond is fucking Jamie's quote unquote wife right his childhood wife for all I know so I think it's just such a very like apt Osmond is here as we're about to get into. Osmond is just a shit Lord,

right? Like he's like laying around and he's just like, yeah, I'm pretty fucking cool. Jamie Lannister. You're all right, but you don't shit gold to me, man.

And Jamie's like, who are you? No one fucking knows. Yeah. Well, actually that is kind of what happens in this chapter. Like Jamie's like, no one fucking knows yeah well actually that is kind of what happens in this chapter like Jamie's like no one fucking knows you dude

yeah and right now like in that same vein Jamie's imagining like what would Arthur Dayne say of this group and he imagines that Arthur Dayne would be like how is it that the king's guard has fallen so low which I don't think sounds one liner enough for Arthur Dayne in my opinion, most like.

And it was my doing, I would have to answer. I opened the door and did nothing when the vermin began to crawl inside. Which, wow, angst more, Jamie Lannister. But also, like, it's a good line and it makes sense for Jamie because, like, he's very much in a way the fulcrum in which like the stories genres and the tropes turn right like beginning of the book wow he's what a king should look like thanks john oh my god he's sleeping with his twin sister like a few chapters later like all the way that he he's like that big turning point in the beginning of the book series and then throws the little boy out the window and then here we have him again as i have said

when we started jamie's chapters like he's one of the largest narrative arguments that george is making as we see him begin to change and think even these questions and I do think it's really good to see this for Jaime's character specifically, but I do want George to know that there are some men that don't need to be explored. For sure, and that's why he doesn't give the mountain a POV. Thank fucking God, but he sure does give Daemon Targaryen his due.

That's true. Anyways. So Jaime decides that he's going to start this meeting he berates his men for letting joffrey die not even going to touch that obviously because we laughed for 80 years about it last week but they touch on it themselves in this chapter yeah they all just fucking roasted his ass, and I'm roasting him, to be honest, in my head. But he calls Joffrey his sister's son in his head here and out loud, and he separates himself from Joffrey a ton

in this chapter. He's totally compartmentalizing his kind of lack of role in Joffrey's life and the fact that he feels pretty much nothing about this kid's death. He's like, huh, my first son that I much nothing about this kid's death he's like huh my first son that i feel nothing about because i wasn't allowed to actually see him as a son ever until this exact moment ish yeah he's like i take no responsibility pretty much

and i just squirted the little fucker you know what i mean pretty? Pretty much, actually though. And then none of the other kings are making motion. There's no throat clearing, nothing, and he asks them, alright, was it Tyrion who poisoned them? And they mostly just ignore his question except for Meryn Trant, who's like, well, Tyrion filled up Joffrey's cup with wine, so he probably

slipped it in then. Whatever, Meryn. Jaime questions the wine being poisoned, and Blount says the imp emptied it on the floor to get rid of the evidence, and Mirren agrees. He's like, yeah, he must have known it was poisoned by else, but he'd do that.

Baelon Swan frowns at this, saying, you know, there were many people on the dais, and more people were watching the doves than the wine cup. Yeah, and I love that Balin here is slightly team Tyrion. Was not expecting that, right? Like, he's like, I don't know. It could have not been Tyrion. Which does make sense because I think that Tyrion's one of the ones who helped him get this promotion, right?

Yeah. So, who backed him. So that might be part of it. But Balin also is presented as, like, you know, kind of a decent, even during Tyrion's trial. Jaime asks, all right, so like, who was on the dais? And Merrin answers, him, the king's family, the brides, Maester Pycelle, the High Septon. And Osmund jokes that, you know, the Septon was likely to poison him. He's too holy by half.

I never liked the look of him. Ooh, that feels like a nice nod toward the future sparrow and a certain snake that's coming to King's Landing. A snake? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's sitting in my sister's. Yes! Sometimes we do that in my household.

So Loras busts in at the end and he's like it was sansa she fled so she's guilty and she had a motive obviously and she was spurned and i like this whole uh just really interesting people that are being put forward here right being investigated in this knives out whodunit going on uh this meeting went from like a total departmental meeting to like a whodunit and ignoring the families especially because like we know they have and will poison people and one of them did the poisoning they bring up people that are very suspect or related maester pycelle's plot is strongly connected to poison as we know in a game of Thrones with Jon

Arryn's death and his advice on that in Council, A Clash of Kings, Tyrion steals poison from him for, you know, Cersei, and of course, Tyrion's trial just a bit ago in A Storm of Swords, he was brought in as a total professional, and then we have the High Septon, who is basically bankrolled by Tyrion, he was instilled by Tyrion, and he was gifted a gorgeous crown by Tywin. Sansa, we know she didn't do this. She was a vehicle for it. And she's Tyrion's wife, immediate mentality there. And of course, poisons a woman's weapon,

as we keep hearing, obviously, although it keeps being used by a certain unemployed man. And everyone is framing Sansa for this and other magical things like we talked about last episode in Jaime 7. So before we get through the chapter I did want to know where you stand on who knows what of the Tyrells. Does Loras know? Does Margaery know? I think Margaery knows and I don't know we'll talk about that later but I think Loras could know. And if so, how could Loras stand there and freak out about Brienne killing Renly, quote unquote, when he knows his family just killed this king?

Interesting. Just interesting. Yeah, I've never really been sure if Loras knew or not, just because loris seems like he just seems so young compared to the rest of his family and the way that he's written and the way he's like acting here like i've often felt that marjorie mustn't know like she's drinking from the same cup that's super risky if she doesn't know and that garland you i've gone back and forth like did garland was garland the one who slipped the poison right like it passes from he knows and i think he did it you think loris did it no i mean garland i think garland did it like slip the poison torn between if it's like garland or marjorie right like obviously it goes from little finger to don toast to sansa's hair to elena to garland and then i

there i'm just like did garland slip it in and tell marjorie or did he give it to marjorie to slip in right it's like only it's a it's a very slight difference but like they're to me they're both in it and i think it's just it's it's just so funny like obviously they're all part of this whole thing but everyone keeps going like poison is a woman's weapon which people came to seem to like have completely thrown out the window for Tyrion's trial and people are like yeah I don't know poison anyone can do it now

but like oh I thought it was only women who were able to do that pansy ass bitch thing no now it's like anyone can do it but like I mean obviously as we know Littlefinger's actually the one who's been orchestrating the big poison plots this whole time yeah

just like him to weaponize misogyny against us I'm telling you convenient Jamie thinks this all seems sensible that Tyrion might yet be innocent little projecting there I think and he thinks on Sansa wondering

how she would have gotten out of the castle. And maybe Varys was who he needed to talk to. Because Varys knew everything in this castle. Varys fucking wishes. Of course. And he does talk to Varys, as we know. He returns to bossy pants. Via Tywin's lines ringing in his head.

He's like, I'm ready to command now. Because Tywin said, you say you're the Lord Commander. Go do your duty yeah he also thinks this line of like these are not the brothers he had chosen but the ones he had and it makes me think again of john's thoughts on bowen and awful and selador but also like throwing it out there to be honest is this not just like how all siblings work in general? Like, does anyone actually choose their fucking blood relatives? Like, really, in general, like, I, I feel like I'm thinking like the Baratheon brothers must have felt the same.

I'm sure like the Cleganes feel the same about each other. Like, you don't like somehow get to pick your blood relatives. Yeah, it's not currently an offer they have for people. No. He tells them Tommen will sit the throne until he's old of age, and that he won't die from poison. And then he tells Boros that he looks like he enjoys food, so he's going to enjoy all of Tommen's first bites of his food.

This feels very Janos and John, by the way. I got these vibes majorly, and I loved this little quote. Sir Osmond Kettleblack laughed aloud, and the Knight of Flowers smiled, but Sir Boros turned a deep beat red. I'm no food taster! I'm a Knight of the Kingsguard! Totally Janos slant.

I would rather be a food taster, okay? Anyways. Same. guard. Totally Jano slint. I would rather be a food taster. Okay, anyways. He tells Boros that Cersei actually enlightened me as to the time that you were going to give up Tommen. Do you remember this? Teterian sellswords, Boros? And he thinks, you know what? Food is actually less threatening.

And he tells him, it's alright though. Tommen likes apple cakes. It's gonna go great. Boros then is like whoa you were a huge hypocrite how can you come at me for not doing my job when you never did yours you were never the king's guardiast of them all which is what you were supposed to be and also you're a cripple and you should be the food taster yes she's like, interesting. Yeah, Jamie is very controlled here. I don't know that I would be. Jamie smiles and he's like, I agree.

Very Tyrion, right? You could totally tell they're brothers here. Because again, how Tyrion handled Janos and how Jamie is handling Blount. He agrees. He says, I am unfit to guard the king. And he's like, take your sword out and we'll find out how unfit either of us are. And then there's this passage. At the end, one of us will be dead and the king's guard will

be improved. He rose. Or if you prefer, you may return to your duties. Bah! Sir Boros hawked up a glob of green phlegm, spat it at Jaime's feet and walked out, his sword still in its sheath. The man is craven and a good thing, because Jamie was bluffing. Boros could totally probably fight him and knows he has to play the lord commander in front of Boros and the rest of the men. Also fascinating that Boros spat it at Jamie's feet and not at Jamie.

There's a mild amount of respect. But also, Jamie's move here, is this not from The Princess Bride? Yes, I suppose. I don't know. For me, it feels like it has the same energy. Jaime has this line where he thinks they feared the man I was, the man I am,

they pity. And I'm, again, thinking of Jaime and Jon, both in different positions in terms of being lord commander and john actually tries to make people see reason he's like this is why we're doing the things we're doing why won't anyone fucking listen to me uh except for uh janice lynn he's not listening he's like all right we're just gonna behead him and jamie on the other hand he's just like ordering people around because this is all he knows because he was raised as a lannister and like this idea of people needing to fear the man that he was for like all this to work that's just

a very lannister thought process we see it from cersei during the black water that you know those you rule must fear you and we see how tywin of course wielded that and that's contrasted with john right he's very confused but kind of gets a learning from ned like it's a mix of both you know gaining that respect having them love you the ones who serve you and jamie doesn't try to do that at all yeah not at all this is all business here yeah he's doing what needs to be done it feels like yeah especially when he like turns to the newcomer osmond osmond kettle black is that who you're speaking about indeed it is so some of you some of you esteemed listeners may already have heard of a tinfoil theory that I really like and I've expanded on. It's a very silly tinfoil theory. A lot of people have posted it on the old reddits and the

ljs and the pjs and the cjs and the yts and all the places you get your A Song of Ice and Fire and Game of Thrones esteemed content. And this theory basically is the Kettleblacks, as we meet them, are members of House Wendt. It's tinfoil 101. The theory goes the Kettleblacks are the lost members mentioned in the tourney at Harrenhal. There are totally cons against the theory. I know it's tinfoil, but some of this shit is so lined up that if it's an accident, it's like a hysterical accident like completely ridiculous and my read isn't that oswell went is alive i know a lot of people like

to theorize that uh i don't think he's alive and walking around but maybe his brother or his nephews sure are so like i've said many people have gone into this before but i think i've added some fun stuff to it. I don't think anyone's really brought some of this up. So Eliana, I'm hoping that maybe I can convince you today that there's something there. All right. All right. Let's do this. All right. So the Kettlebacks don't land in these books until A Clash of Kings.

They are sellswords in the capital hired by Cersei to replace the Redguard, Vylar's guard. If you remember, Tyrion sends a man named Vylar, the Redguard captain, and some men to the Riverlands to escort Cleos back, bringing Robb's guard back as well. Later, he's called Tywin's captain of guards in the appendices, and his status is kind of unknown on whether he was killed by Edmure before the Siege of Riverrun in Feast, and his status is kind of unknown on whether he was killed by Edmure before the Siege of Riverrun in Feast, or if he was freed. But before Clash of Kings, and before any mention of the Kettleblacks, I want to talk about House Wendt because they were raised out of Harrenhal, Lady Wendt yielded to Tywin

because she had no men to defend it. No men, which is interesting because we learned that there are at least six people in house went during the tourney at heron hall the father the lord was walter went and in brand two a storm of swords we learned that the daughter of the castle was queen of love and beauty at the tourney and she had four brothers and an uncle to defend her. So her four brothers and her uncle, you guessed it, Oswell Wendt, but all four sons of Harrenhal were defeated on the first day of the tourney. In A Game of Thrones Tyrion VII, we learn about Lady Wendt yielding Harrenhal. Tyrion is discussing this with Kevin, and's plot as we know is very much wrapped up

in that framework of the tourney at Harrenhal hosted by the Wentz they do exist Game of Thrones erasure is real and we get a little detail about them in the World of Ice and Fire a couple little details the tourney was announced by Walter Wentz Lord Harrenhal, late in the year 280 AC, not long after a visit from his younger brother, Sir Oswell Wendt, a knight of the Kingsguard. We then learn that Lord Wendt was offering prizes thrice as large as those given at the Great Lannisport tourney of 272 AC, which was hosted by Tywin Lannister. Of course, this tourney was kind of implied to be bankrolled by Tywin Lannister in the World of Ice and Fire. And we know from his stance at Duskendale on Aerys

that he had a better king in mind in Rhaegar. He raised a hand to indicate Prince Rhaegar in a council in the Aerys II chapter of the World of Ice and Fire. And also in Aerys II's chapter in the World of Ice and Fire, we learned that Aerres' loyalists would probably not have liked

if Rhaegar had, you know, chosen to go against his father, and that Ares might even disinherit him if he did so, and name Viserys the heir. Later in the World of Ice and Fire, we learn about the Lothsteds, which we talked about a little bit ago in Jamie 6,

when Jamie was having the shield of House Lothsten with a bat on it just a couple episodes ago. And we learn that knights in service of the Lothstens were House Wendt. They were given Harrenhal as a reward for helping bring down the Lothstens. They were given Harrenhal as a reward for helping bring down the Lothstens, and they hold this seat to the day, but the World of Ice and Fire quotes, tragedy has marked them. So, with this framework in mind around Jaime's chapters, I want to move forward with this back and forth conversation we got here in Jaime VIII, A Storm of Swords.

We won't get into it fully, we will just get into a little bit of it. I've highlighted the most important bits, in my opinion, and Eliana, you are going to help me. Yes, I am. I've fought in tourneys, melees, and battles throughout the Seven Kingdoms. I know of every hedge knight, freerider, and upjump squad of any skill who has ever resumed to break a lance in the lists. So how is it that I have never heard of you sir osmond he had a great wide smile on his face did sir osmond as if he and jamie were old comrades in arms playing some jolly little game i'm a soldier though not no tourney knight where had you served before my sister found you? Here and there, my lord. I will ask once more.

Where have you served? In the stepstones. Some in the disputed lands. There's always fighting there. I rode with the gallant men. We fought for Lys and some for Tyrosh. How did you come by your knighthood? On a battlefield.

Who knighted you? Sir Robert... Stone. He's dead now, my lord. To be sure. Sir Robert Stone might have been some bastard from the Vale, he supposed, selling his sword in the Disputed Lands.

On the other hand, he might be no more than a name Sir Osman cobbled together from a dead king in a castle wall. Interesting. We have a couple things to pull from this. When the Kettleblacks appear at the start of the War of the Five Kings out of nowhere, Osmund and Oswell are

the only ones with a real backstory. Osmund has fought on the battlefield across the Narrow Sea with a company called the Gallant Men fought in the disputed lands first for Lys then Tyrosh and we've talked a lot here at Girls Gone Canada about exiles across the narrow sea and there are many right there's Blackfire supporters Blackfires Oberyn after he killed Edgar Ironwood for example was sent over to Lys Viserys and Daenerys probably one of the

biggest examples smuggled out by willem derry and in theon one spoilers for the winds of winter this is a sample chapter george released uh there is a line from stannis nothing really plot spoiler just saying where he's talking about daemon blackfirere and he says, By this logic, because we know Stannis is likely wrong here, because two Targaryens are coming from across the Narrow Sea right into Westeros. One might be a Blackfyre and one is a real dragon. We'll see. But exiles come back by this logic. So maybe you're wrong, Stannis.

People aren't hiding from the rebellion. We've seen this with John Connington, who himself went into exile. There's your biggest exile example. We also know that a bastard knight from the Vale knighted Osmund Kettleblack. And this very chapter, Jaime Jamie 8, is placed next to Sansa 6 in A Storm of Swords. We have this interesting exchange with Peter Baelish and Sansa on the Merling King, their getaway ship. The chapter where Sansa learns that she is to act as a bastard from the Vale, a lane stone. Of course, Sansa's mother, Catelyn, also has some house-went ties.

On her mother there, Minissa went, nay, Tully's line. The exact relation is unknown. Oswell, come up here and let the Lady Sansa have a look at you. The old man appeared a few moments later, grinning and bowing. Sansa eyed him uncertainly. What am I supposed to see? Do you know him? asked Peter. No. Look closer. She studied the old man's line, windburnt face, hook nose, white hair, and huge knuckly hands. There was something familiar about him, yet Sansa had to shake her head.

I don't. I never saw Oswald before I got into his boat, I'm certain. Oswald grinned, showing a mouth of crooked teeth. No, but my lady might have met my three sons. It was the three sons and that smile, too. Kettle black, Sansa's eyes went wide. You're a kettle black. kettle black sans eyes went wide you're a kettle black interesting i like that passage because if this is a thing george is telling us to draw our eyes to the page look closer little finger says uh just a fun, especially because it comes directly after Jaime VIII. These chapters are very much next to each other. Sansa VI is the chapter where she becomes a Lainstone at the end. And in all likelihood, Walter Wendt, the Lord of Harrenhal at the time, is likely dead now.

Oswell, Wendt, I do not think is alive. Oswell, Osmund, Osfrid, and Osney Cuddleblack, in my opinion, would likely be the four unnamed brothers from the tournament, with maybe the eldest brother of these four brothers parading as Oswell to honor his uncle. But here's where it's interesting. It seems that each of these men actually have different motivations. Our friend Aziz from History of Westeros, as we discussed earlier, said that two of them were employed by Littlefinger, but I don't know if I agree with that. Oswald has been in Littlefinger's employ for a while that we learn. A good snatch if he is a Wendt, especially because Lysa is a Tully, part Wendt, and eventually Sansa landing in the Vale.

part went and eventually sansa landing in the veil osmund is cersei's main brother that she likes to fuck of the kettle blacks and seems to be sizing jamie up during all of this but cersei has also bedded osney who's the brother that sells her out and feast after he's tortured by the sparrow osfred and osmund get thrown in a cell kevin plans two options for them. They either get to plea innocent and fight Sir Robert Strong and likely die, or go to the wall guilty. Interestingly enough, there's another little parallel with Cersei who's hooking up with these very

strong men. Eh? Eh? Eh? Eh? You see what I did there? Yes, I do. If these guys are wents, these dark haired, bulky, muscly men are Wentz. Secretly. And they're hooking up with a queen who, you know, is seeking more power and a throne. I don't know.

I don't know. Just put it out there. From Harrenhal? Yeah, from Harrenhal. Exactly. So, truth be told, the biggest reveal we would likely see from these options, and you might find surprise in this, would be in Sansa's plot. I've mentioned before a pretty minor theory that Sansa's reveal to the Veil Lords

will actually mirror Catelyn V in A Game of Thrones. You in the corner, she said to an older man she had not noticed until now. Is that the black bat of Harrenhal I see embroidered on your surcoat, sir? The man got to his feet. It is my lady. And his lady went a true and honest friend to my father, Lord Hoster Tully of Riverrun. She is, the man replied stoutly. It would be such a great fit for this theory,

if it's more than tinfoil, if the reveal from Sansa's plot in the Vale came that the bastard knight Robert Stone that knighted the Kettleblack men really was just that they were probably not knighted by some fake man in the Vale, or if they were, it was their eldest brother. And hey, it might be just fun tinfoil, but it's a fun exploration of the text. So I don't really think you get to be the wend calling the kettle black in this situation, you know? Yeah, I think I can see a lot of it. And like you said, it'd be really interesting if it came through in Sansa's plot, especially like this. I was trying to like, see if there are any Roberts, like, did he hesitate? Right? And was it a different Robert? Yes, it was a different robert it's sir robert stone yeah like there i think there was a robert somewhere

and he's like wait wait yeah well and that's another good thought though um and i mean there are so in retrospect if this was bankrolled by ty, the whole tourney at Harrenhal was bankrolled by Tywin, that means that the Wentz have been in cahoots with the Lannisters before for power. So having two of these brothers kind of like show up and try to get Cersei power, you know, or power through Cersei, it makes sense. You know, it's not they don't have to be power players. They don't have to all be good. But it does seem that Littlefinger having someone in his employ that could or could not be. And don't get me wrong. There's cons to this theory. Like, Oswell does not speak like someone who's highborn.

So at first, I used to think maybe it could be like Lord Walter went and three of the brothers and maybe one died or something. And I'm like, no, it fits better if it's the brothers as all four. It really does. So it's an idea. But like I said, they seem like they might not be high born and yada yada. But at the same time, the people that take Harrenhal aren't always high born. They just get it, obviously, as reflected with Peter Baelish. always highborn they like just get it obviously as reflected with peter balish and the irony that peter balish thinks he has all these men that are in his employ like oswell who may or may not be a

went peter has oswell's home what if sansa just promises him he could have his home back yeah and it's like i have more uh license to do this than Peter Baelish who's like never been there and be like I don't know dude, my grandfather's Hoster Tully my other grandmother is Manisa Wendt I have the blood and she has black leather wings

yeah, so I can see it interesting, okay, well I'm glad we leveled. That was my big performance, everyone. Rate, review, subscribe. Oh my god. Thank you everyone for listening to

Girls Gone Canon. That was the episode? No. Yeah, in this episode, Jamie's actually wondering what Cersei was thinking when she gave Osmund a cloak. But is at least relieved that he knows how to use a sword and shield. He lets him leave and calls Ser Meryn up. And he's like, so, I heard you're into beating little girls.

And he's like, alright, Meryn, show me in the white book where in our vows it says to beat Sansa Stark. Where is that in our job description? And Maren's like, well, I swore to obey his grace. And Jaime's like, all right, well, now you answer only to me, Tywin, and Cersei, no one else. And Maren questions obeying the king. And Jaime's like, like uh first of all your boss is literally eight fucking years old and our duty is to protect him including from himself this is a big change in the king's guard I think people don't really notice right away uh before

Jamie lived in this world where he must ignore what's happening the men continued that while he was gone obviously they listened to joffrey but now that jamie's back he's actually trying to enact this change and i think that's pretty big that jamie does work to enact small changes and affect small changes as much as he can and this is one of them yeah it's like john trying to enact changes but it it's interesting because jamie's doing it a little more subtly. Right. And is framing it as a protecting the King from himself, but it is,

it is like a change in the way things were done, which is like, you follow the King unquestioningly. And so, yeah, he's like, it's protecting the King from himself, but also,

you know, not just protecting everyone else from the King, which is what happened to Jaime, but also Meryn Trant is trash. Ser Meryn Trash is what I have for everyone today. And I don't want to play devil's advocate now that I just praised Jaime like just a few seconds ago and i guess like as an auntie no i'm just kidding i just praised him a second ago but i also do want to point out that like yes jamie is enacting this change but he's still enacting this change and saying me my dad and cersei are in charge and in a feast for crows he goes to the riverlands and he enacts change but he says me and cersei are in charge like it's the lannister name that he is enacting it in so it's like jamie you're doing good things or you have a good

motivation for once to do something but you're still doing it for the incorrect reason which he doesn't know any other reason at this point but yeah i mean like tywin and cersei have been his guiding star for a long time and also he hasn't started thinking completely like wait what if i don't think that tywin and cersei are right about everything yet he's like not there yet that's like end of feast for crows yeah it takes a while to get there, and that's part of the journey. Jamie turns it into terms that even an idiot like Maren Trant could understand. If Tommen wants you to saddle his horse, cool. If he wants to kill his horse, come talk to me.

Man, too little too late on that Joff train there. You can tell he's super overcompensating for Tommen. But yeah, I think you're right. And also, Jamie straight up wasn't there for any of Joffrey's reign. Yeah, at all. He was like, in a cell. You don't know what it was like. That's the thing is, yes,

you can be pissed at these men for beating Sansa, because I am too. But at the same time, you weren't there. Yeah, but I do think Jaime would have been able to push back on Joffrey. I mean, Tywin was able to do it and obviously as we see Joffrey listens to good fighting men like Sandor he's like oh Sandor's cool

so anyway but yeah he was locked up in a cell he turns to Balen Swan he congratulates him on his honor. And he's like, you're the least shitty of all these guys. And then he asks him some real questions. He's like, except for your brother, Donald. Donald rode with Renly. Then he rode with Stannis. And your father didn't even take a side.

So what gives, Balan? And Balan's like, hey, dad's too old to fight. And Donald yielded and pledged to Joffrey like many other hostages and that was a very notable moment many other hostages uh jamie insinuates donald fell down the king tray and hit every branch except for stark and grayjoy on the way down and he wonders where exactly donald loyalty lies. And Balin is like, Donald is loyal to Tommen. But Jaime's like, it's not Donald I'm worried about. It's you. What will you do if Donald comes face to face with you in the throne room with your king between the two of you?

What would you do? Maybe project, Jaime? Maybe that's what you'll do? I want to tell Jaime, it's okay. it's okay i read fire and blood we saw this happen all the time and bail and swan will probably just like do what everyone else in fire and blood did right stay loyal then have a really sad moment between him and his brothers on the other side then they die together i read it you know i get it and his brother's on the other side, then they die together. I read it, you know? I get it.

And Balan backs me up. Balan Swan is also like, I too read Fire and Blood Jamie Lannister. That's never gonna happen. And Jamie's like, but it could, cause it happened to me. And Balan's like, on my sword, on my honor, on my father's name, I swear

I shall not do as you did. Jamie laughed. Good. Return honor on my father's name i swear i shall not do as you did jamie laughed good return to your duties and tell sir donald to add a weather vane to his shield oh good fair weather burn and now jamie has to deal with the knight of flowers himself loris tyrell slim as a sword life and fit sir kind of thinks this is a tourney and his tilt has just been called while you're operating it that way. Kinda. Jamie pulls his dick out on the table and he's like yes, Loras, you're hot shit but I was hotter, younger and dumber shit before you were

at age 15 on the king's card. I was better than you, Sir Loras. I was bigger, I was was stronger and i was quicker and now you're older the boy said my lord he had to laugh this is too absurd tyrian would mock me unmercifully if he could hear me now compare cocks with this green boy older and wiser, sir. You should learn from me. As you learned from Sir Boros and Sir Merrin, that arrow hit too close to the mark.

I learned from the White Bull and Barristan the Bold, Jamie snapped. I learned from Sir Arthur Dane, the Sword of the Morning, who could have slain all five of you with his left hand while he was taking a piss with the right. I learned from Prince Lewin of Dorord and Sir Oswell Wendt and Sir Jonathan Derry.

Good men, everyone. Dead men, everyone. He's me, Jamie realized suddenly. I'm speaking to myself as I was. All cocksure arrogance and empty chivalry. This is what it does to you. To be too good,

too young. I know that the line's not written that way, but I don't know why I just felt right to deliver it that way. It is, though. Yeah. Lorce's line just then, though, kind of reminds me of, goddammit,

a thing Jorah Mormont says about Rhaegar to Dany. Valiantly, nobly died? Yeah. Yeah, dude fucking dies. Jaime does try a different approach. He's like, all right, how do I reach these kids? How do I connect with the youths?

How do I reach these kids? He asks who wore Renly's armor on the Blackwater, and Loras is all sullen, and's like it was Garland. Renly's tall and broad and I don't fit his armor. And then he's like Littlefinger suggested it. He thought it would frighten Stannis's men and it did. Jamie asks which also that's such like a big hint of what's really happening in King's Landing right there. Littlefinger suggested it. Interesting. The Tyrells listen to Littlefinger.

That's a hint, Jaime, right there. But Jaime is so concerned with other things in this meeting and trying to take back his lord commandership and get a hold on his crew. And everything is uncertain. And Tywin and Cersei both hate him and his life's in shambles right and he's really confused about his sexual and heart attraction to brienne his heart's attraction um so these little clues like little finger suggested it are just going by the wayside much like john right with the things that were suggested to him, or with you know, like Bowen Marsh and everyone

saying things to him, and him just going hoo hoo, you guys should just kill me. Yeah, at least Jamie wasn't telling everyone, you should just kill me. At least he was not doing that. That's what happens when you're 30 years old, you know, you're like, wait, wait, hold on, back up.

Jamie asks what he did with renly and loris says he buried him with his own hands in a place that renly had showed him when he squired at storm's end uh loris declares he will defend king tommen with all of his strength but he will never betray renly by word or deed. He was the king that should have been. He was the best of them. Yeah, and Jaime actually notes that the arrogance fled from Loras when he spoke of Renly. And then he knows that Loras is speaking the truth of what he thinks and that the boy was still good.

Proud, but good. And, you know, I just want to say like to be fair you know this is a story very much about young people losing people that they loved too early we started off right in the game of thrones with the stark daughters and their dad ned being killed right in front of them we see it with john and egret dying in his arms and we see it with denarius and drogo which i think is maybe one of the more apt comparisons considering that there are a lot of ways in which it's a problematic relationship just as you know nick uh fox a few weeks ago brought out uh brought up that there might be problematic circumstances surrounding renly and loris and their relationship

and we don't have Loras's POV in this story and to be honest it's actually one of the POVs I do wish we had there are quite a few on my list um and in many ways I think though through the other characters in the story we already know what's going on with Loras's perspective right because like what happened to Jamie when he was Loras' age was disillusioning, realizing oh shit, I didn't actually get this job on Merritt. I mean, I'm sure Loras

knows that, right? He knows what his family's scheming. But what happened to Loras was as heartbreaking for him for his first love, whether or not it's problematic, like from his perspective, that was his first love whether or not it's problematic like from his perspective that was his first love as it was for john and denarius and like we're i i'm you know we propose different

lenses through which to read the story and i'm gonna put forth this one for loris that is something really great to look at is loris's disillusionment changing as well um really great to look at is Loras's disillusionment changing as well um no matter what the situation was if he was groomed by Renly or not like Loras was good at fighting that's what he's good at just like Jaime and that heartbreak um it almost makes me wonder I like the idea of Loras not knowing all of his family's machinations in a way it reminds me of Jamie a lot in that way Jamie never is in on the scheming Tyrion always has a scheme Cersei always has a scheme Tywin always has a scheme and Jamie is always the last one to know about their schemes and the first one affected by them a lot of times right yeah obviously not counting some of the Tyrion stuff and Tysha of of course, in her own right.

It's just interesting because it does feel like Jaime is left out of it because he has that dual loyalty, right? Like, yes, above everything, he has always put his family, Cersei, everyone first. He's always tried to put his family first, even with the Kingsguard ship. But they everyone first. He's always tried to put his family first, even with the Kingsguard

ship, but they come first. Yeah, and it seems like no one reminded Jaime during his time there at the Kingsguard. They told him to just shut up and obey, but no one tried to remind him. When they were reminding him, like, your job as a Kingsguard is to just

do what you're told. There's a reason why he was more drawn to his family. It's because they weren't burning people alive at that time. I mean, instead, his dad was drowning people alive. But, you know, same difference. Maybe Jamie wasn't willing to think that deeply about it. And he didn't see it directly in front of his own eyes, right? It wasn't visceral for him the way that Ares's was. It doesn't make it better, but like...

Anyway. You know what I'm saying. Yes, I do. Jamie asks Loras to take a second, examine the facts. Let's look at the elephant in the room, Loras. Let's just change the subject. Let's talk about Brienne.

Let's change the subject. Talk about the girl that's on my mind. He's like, I cannot reach this kid at all. He's like, I want to talk about Brienne. Let's change the subject. Talk about the girl that's on my mind. He's like, I cannot reach this kid at all. He's like, I want to talk about my crush. Yes, and Loras immediately is like, no, fuck her. She pulled tricks in the melee to win and become a Kingsguard member for Redley. And Jaime's like, interesting, then you should be buddies, because I know another knight who's fond of cheating loris in the hands tourney jamie asks so what what trickery did brienne use and loris is like

well you see and that's because brienne didn't actually use trickery it's just like she was a woman and she was in armor and he didn't know that it was brienne in there and she fought fair square and she didn't reveal herself and she beat his ass anyways we won't go into it but his grace put a rainbow cloak around her shoulders and she killed him or let him die brienne is not a doctor okay just like jamie not a doctor i don't know what he would have done if joffrey were there again not and of course this is coming up in jamie's chapter right she killed him or let him die that's one of the biggest things between their characters that they do share is their king dying on their watch and loris then

comes out and claims well maybe all of the guard was conspiring which is outrageous king's guard conspiring against their king i've never heard of that happening in a song of ice and fire especially not with when anyways um jamie remarks there's a big difference between these situations and he's like how could you have let joffrey die were you a part of it but loris pay attention gets stiff at this and he puffs himself up and he gets all like scowly and then jamie ignores that and starts defending brienne instead again like i said earlier this seems like a hint that maybe loris does know he got stiff being kind of like half uh called a killer right he kind of was all what do you mean i killed her what do you mean the time i killed her what what makes you think maybe loris knew jamie is distracted by brienne worried about other things yeah i think that can

go it can be read either way yeah like either l knew. I wouldn't be surprised if he did, but at the same time, I wouldn't be surprised if he wasn't included in it because of how much, like, Jaime he is, right? He's younger. Clearly impulsive. Yeah. And he ends up giving up secrets in a sense. He gives up Garland Tyrell's secret. Maybe his family's like, I don't know. I don't know if we can trust Loras with secrets right now, everyone.

So, I don't know. I also want to point out, I noticed this person's name, Ser Parmen, and I just want to say his name reminds me of Parmesan, and that's it. That's the note. Jamie says Brienne grieves for Renly, the same as Loras does,

and Jamie comments, you know, you know what's really different about when you kill a king and you mean to do it versus when you didn't. Jaime's like I actually never grieved for Ares would you believe and then he calls

Rhaen loyal, stubborn ugly and then she swore to bring him safely to King's Landing and here I am right before you! Me! Jaime Lannister! Golden hand, but just almost. He shakes his head finally, and he's like, Loras, show me

how you'd fight a shadow. And Loras is like, immediately returns right to that same outlook that we discussed earlier with Sansa. Catelyn and Brienne fled, which makes them guilty. Interesting, because the Ty and Brienne fled, which makes them guilty. Interesting, because the Tyrells stayed, but they're not guilty.

It's framed really well in this lens. The chapter starts with Loras claiming Sansa's guilty. He stiffens up when it's kind of jokingly implied by Jaime he was complicit in Joffrey's death for completely different reasons. Then it leads to him

blaming Brienne and Catelyn. But at the end of this chapter here, Loras basically unravels and admits, yes, you're right. It couldn't have been Brienne. I kind of knew all along. Now that we bring it up, it probably wasn't Brienne. And he kind of just backs off of it and backpedals at the end a little because of Jaime talking him down. And I think it's really interesting in looking at that examination of whether Loras knew or not that these are just two events, same chapter that start and end with that. because Loras is like, okay, as you said, you know, well, why would they run if they weren't guilty, especially against Jaime's own sins of, you know, like, he actually did break his vows and kill his king, as everyone has pointed out. And that's the thing, right? Jaime's like, you know, not only did I not grieve for Aerys, he doesn't say this, right? But it's, we know from Jaime's chapters, Jaime didn't run from it. Like they just found him there standing over Ares and he's like,

yeah, I fucking did it. I'm going to go sit in the pointy chair now while I wait for everyone to recoup and then come back. Cause whatever, it doesn't even matter anymore. Right. He didn't even wear his white armor,

which is something that he calls out to earlier when he's talking to Balan Swan. Like, what would you do in your white cloak? He didn't even wear the armor. Yeah, like, Jaime knew what he was doing. He didn't run from it at all. He's like, there's no fucking point. Right, and so and then coming back again to the other lens of looking at Lor for drogo's death is it miri mazdor and like her tent of shadows which now i'm gonna just throw this out there and leave it uh renly's tent of shadows throwing it

out there uh i don't think it's just miri right that's why people are having discussions drogo think it's just Neri, right? That's why people are having discussions. Drogo, smearing fucking mud all over his wound instead of using the poultice. Smearing dirt all over himself? You know, maybe that's what you do to avoid disease. I don't know, we're in a pandemic.

Daenerys, smothering her beloved with a pillow after realizing that maybe you cannot call the dead back to life, even though, you know, it turns out maybe you can, as we find out in this book whatever not saying at all that loris i'm not saying at all that loris is to blame but like that there's an absolute need that happens in grief right like that's part of that process where you find someone or something to blame as zanaris does for drogo and I think that's a very human emotion for Loras. It's hard, he's

so young, right? He's so immature and it's different people deal with that in different ways, right? Like, it contrasts with Jon, right? And even with Jaime, like, these are people who are a little different. Jaime kind of externalizes things until now. Jon's someone who

internalizes blame very very easily. He's like's like oh it wasn't my arrow but it basically should have been like he knows it's not that but he blames himself and thinks i killed egret right and he deals with it as self-hate and punishment because just having somewhere to direct that blame whether it's yourself or someone else just makes it easier to deal with yeah and i mean that's the first time John's, I mean, John's never been allowed to externalize blame. Yeah.

And Jamie kind of has been, that's been his whole life being able to, and we see that with a lot of characters. You look at Sansa when she is a little younger in the story and she blames ladies death on everyone. Right. She blames it on Arya. She's like,

it's all Arya's fault. Joffrey would never have done it. Joffrey would never have done it. But then in the end, you come to the same conclusion, just like Loras did. Loras came to the conclusion, wow, it wasn't really... Oh, wow. And then he realizes

in horror what he's done. Because he starts to think on this night, and he's like well the gorget was cut through with one clean stroke Brienne's really strong freakishly but she couldn't do that that's fine steel it's super nice steel

and if she couldn't cut through the steel how could a shadow Jamie is like great questions go ask Brienne these you can either release her, accuse her but I'm asking you on your honor as a knight, judge her fairly I'm gonna throw it out there

Jamie's asking Loras Tyrell to deal with Brienne what Catelyn Stark did to Jamie she came in, she accused heared out his truth, it was a horrible truth, but the truth and then judged or released him but C Catelyn, you know, somehow did both. Yeah, that's actually a really good point.

Then released him. Oh, that's a great kind of parallel in a way. Jaime is kind of asking him please, you know, justice, mercy. Yeah. He's experienced it now. Loras makes to leave leave but it turns out he kind of likes talking to his new old boss and tells him renly thought brienne was absurd in woman's mail pretending to

be a knight and jamie says well if he'd seen her in pink satin and mirish lace he wouldn't have complained i asked him why he kept her close if he thought her so grotesque. He said that all his other knights wanted things of him, castles or honors or riches. But all that Brienne wanted was to die for him. When I saw him all bloody, with her fled and

the three of them unharmed, if she's innocent, then Robar and Eamon... He could not seem to say the words. Jamie had not stopped to consider that aspect of it. I would have done the same, sir. The lie came easy, but Sir Loras seemed grateful for it. Hmm.

Oh, Jamie, that was very chivalrously done. It was. Sweet boy. Sweet boy, that was very kindly done to help Loras. His emotional intelligence is increasing, right? Cause like, he can tell. Cause Loras is rejecting the idea that he and Jamie at the beginning were alike at all because he's like, you're old! I'm young! And- Yeah.

But in this moment- Common ground! Exactly. He's like, all he needs right now as jamie was saying you know we're like is for jamie to actually meet him here and be like him and i don't know is this what being a brother is like i don't know what siblings um i mean a brother of the king's guard and that's the rough part is that like we see jamie excelling at this, just like we see John actually doing a great job, not a great job by his men's standards, obviously, but doing a good job in our opinion on the watch and for it to be kind of taken away from them. He does a great job when it's the personal things, right? And he's being a brother to like Pip, Gran, Sam and stuff.

I also want to throw out another line here as another way to look at this from Sansa1 in Feast. If a lie was kindly meant, there is no harm in it. Obviously different context there, but

I also was thinking a lot about the line when she thinks about Eleanor and the rest of the Tyrell girls during Storm when she thinks they are young, they've never seen war, they don't know what it's like. They're just young girls, you know, their heads are full of songs like mine once was. And that's how Jaime really enters this chapter. But then, like you said, it closes out with that, if a lie was kindly meant, there's no harm in it. And it's not the last time Jamie thinks this. He reflects on this for a while after Loras leaves,

thinking that even after these brothers didn't save Joffrey or protect him, he didn't think about killing these guys until recently, right? He thinks, what am I if I do not lift the hand i have left to avenge my own blood and seed what am i if not easily bought into the myths of toxic masculinity that i need to express my anger through violence all the time especially now that i can no longer but anyway this is coming for the guy who like like, a book ago was, like, balls out, charging at Robb Stark, cutting through 20 men,

like, I'm out of it! I got this! I don't got this. Uh, yeah, that right there is called character development, Eliana. Wow. Yeah. And I mean, like, yeah. We'll come back to Loras another time.

He thinks about killing Boros, just to get rid of him at least, and looks at his stump, thinking, man, I need to cover this. He thinks maybe he'll get a golden hand, one that Cersei would like to stroke her hair, hold her close with. Then he thinks, his hand could wait, though. There were other things to tend to first. There were other debts to pay. Yeah, Jamie.

And we so know about that. Save the accessories for later. Pay off your house loan to Tom Nook first. Pay off your inclines and bridges. Oh, fuck that. It's the opposite. I'm torn, because I'm like, I want more rooms to put all my things in so hard so many bells

they make you swear and swear so many bells they make you dig and dig they do oh that was Jamie 8 a storm of swords I feel like that was heavy it was heavy

it's actually like a kind of swords I feel like that was heavy it was heavy it's actually like a kind of short chapter but here we are with like a two hour episode fuck yeah but I'm glad I think we covered a lot and next week is of course a very good chapter right

we get a sword sword like you said if we want to yell certain words or talk about stone heart framework it begins next chapter for sure even stronger than the clash Catalan chapters so I'm ready for that

I'm excited for next week yeah definitely and that'll close out yeah as you said our storm chapters and we transition to feast so much so much to discuss yes and of course you know if you want to keep up with whenever those chapters come out

or any other things like Chloe making comments about Macbeth on Twitter you can follow us on social media find us at girlsgoncanon C-A-N-O-N, on Twitter. Or maybe you have thoughts.

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patrons, $5 and up on patreon.com slash girlsgonecanon get special episodes every month. Last month we talked about Tyrosh, which I'm sure you realize we mentioned this episode and quite a bit about Dario.

Did you know there was a Dario day recently everyone? I did. It was great on Twitter. But we talked in depth about Tyrosh and Dario's role in the story and this month though, for our His Drug Materials But, you know, we talked in depth about Tyrosh and Dario's role in the story. And this month, though, for our His Dark Materials fans, we will be talking about the novella Once Upon a Time in the North.

Yeah, I'm very, very excited. If you guys are reading along with us with His Dark Materials, we will have a Subtle Knife episode out soon as well. So stay tuned for that. As always, thanks again for listening. I've been one of your hosts chloe and i've been another one of your hosts eliana see you next week all bye