Girls Gone Canon Cast - ASOIAF Episode 93 - AFFC Jaime V

Episode Date: June 19, 2020

Jaime continues on his roaming individual family reunion interviews with Daven and Genna Lannister, back at Riverrun where once he was imprisoned.    Don't forget: This Saturday, June 20, we'll be guesting with Alicia Kingston and ManaroGeek for a Ginger Ale Chat!   And in two weeks we'll be having Don Willi aka A Don of Ice and Fire of The Hype's Watch join us to dissect AFFC Jaime VI!    --- Eliana's twitter: https://twitter.com/arhythmetric Eliana's reddit account: https://www.reddit.com/user/glass_table_girl Eliana's blog: https://themanyfacedblog.wordpress.com/ Chloe's twitter: https://twitter.com/liesandarbor Chloe's blog: www.liesandarborgold.com Intro by Anton Langhage, Background music - "Lost" by Turbosol

Hello, and welcome to Girls Gone Canon, A Song of Ice and Fire, Episode 93. I am one of your hosts, Chloe. And I am another one of your hosts, Eliana. I am so excited about this episode because, I don't know, maybe it's just a little relaxed. It lets us explore the terrain, but there's a lot of good stuff to get into. I mean, there's a lot of good stuff. Jenna, who is one of the very great Lannisters. I mean, like, what? They're 50-50, you know? Yeah, every time the gods flip a coin, a Lannister is

born, and also a Targaryen. I don't know. Jenna... Jenna, though, is like, she is the... this whole episode, everyone's like, oh, Tywin's a man in a thousand, and by everyone I mean Eamon Frey, but also Davin, and everyone's just like, I'm gonna suck the dick of Tywin's a man in a thousand, and by everyone I mean Em and Frey, but also Davin, and everyone's just like,

I'm gonna suck the dick of Tywin's ghost right now in front of you, Jamie. But Jenna's like the only one that tells it to him how it is. Yeah, totally. I'm really excited to get into it. And talk about it. But before we do that, we have quite a few emails and tweets of note and even some announcements after that. We're switching up the order let me announce some of these things yes first we had a tweet from our friend and patron nick fox

nick said i'm gonna ask you something feel free not to answer but you guys know us you all know us we are going to answer nick asked if thoros of Myr could birth a shadow baby. How would that work? You know what I mean. Like, are we looking at an all fours sort of situation, or you know, what? Hmm. Hmm. So I thought about this actually quite a bit.

Which answer do we want to give? Like, do we want the serious answer, or do we want, like, a... So there's a part of me that actually kind of wonders is like shadow binding like only i have been wondering it i mean we have quays right only biologically like female or something there is like and in a way i think some of the messages of the story would relate to that right like just the idea of a magical thing being overtly female i think that's interesting there's that i think there's also something like kind of

i don't know freudian about it right like the the scary boom right and i mean that that seems in line with some of the things that george has been doing but i mean i guess it's possible that shadow binding could you know like maybe thoros it's not like shadow binding when giving birth to a baby doesn't ask for some life force on the part uh of a man right like there's there's definitely some things that are fucked up about it and i wouldn't be surprised if If maybe shadowbinding. If like. There were male shadowbinders. Also Thoros of Myr isn't a shadowbinder.

So that's worth noting. He's a red priest. Melisandre learned this. Likely in Asshai. She's called Melisandre of Asshai. And they're separate practices. And she justifies. It sounds like the way she explains shadowbinding to Davos.

Feels like a justification to make it mesh within her faith. So i don't know that thoros of myr is even capable of doing this um in terms of studying i also think that like so there's no explicit mention of it being explicitly just female but there's also no indication of the opposite. And the only two we know are Melisandre and Quaithe, right, who are both female-esque. And based kind of on what's presented, it makes me wonder if it just like does require a womb for that or some sort of womb. And obviously, I guess George is never going to explain this probably to us. George is never going to explain this probably to us. I mean, the male red priests, you know, like Thoros, Mykoro, Banero, they can't shadowbind. And I'm wondering if it's not necessarily like something we get gifted to like a priest or priestess of our lore,

because we know that Melisandre had to go and had to like actually learn it for ages and ages and dedicated herself to it so I really do think it might just be kind of a female thing like an avatar, right? Like Suki. Huh. I mean, it could be or it could be, it could be like, I mean what I'm also thinking is it could be because there is that fucked up element. If there are

male shadowbinders do they, it's again, a kind of fucked up ritual do they just like go find a womb a female person that's the next thought i had is because only death can pay for life right so yeah would it be like you're sacrificing the other person anyways if he got pregnant i think it would be out of his dick, maybe. Like, could you imagine him just, like, pissing out a shadow baby? That or, like, a cesarean? Yeah, a butthole or cesarean.

I'm also thinking kind of like, I don't know. Oh, or remember Zeus? Athena just came out of his head. We don't know that this could have just come out of his head. It does feel like that, right? Like, total, like, Greek kind of story. this could have just come out of his head it does feel like that right like total like greek kind of story that's funny especially with some of the lannister stuff we're about to get into today i it could come out of yes his butthole he could poop it out he could jizz it out

over and over until it's enough shadow that would take a while like what if you're in a very weird circle i mean what would happen if you didn't finish and someone killed you listen there's a lot to think about there's a lot giving us a lot a lot to uh to digest to digest is one is one shadow baby come what oh yes that's right i did just say that you're right i i blocked that out immediately what are we even talking about you know i did tell nick when nick put this question forth that this is like top of the episode stuff he was all very upset he's like maybe you're gonna block me after this one you guys and i'm like no we're we're gonna put this in the very top of the episode nick do you know us yeah this is not block this is in fact metal worthy this is like a pin tweet

worthy he should pin this tweet nick you should pin pin this tweet yeah uh for what it's worth nick also i think reached out recently asking what chapter we would like him to do if he did an episode of girls gone canon which we've been asking all of you to do for so long. I don't want to give a chapter. I want to I think the true tribute, right, is to hear what all of you think is the chapter we want. Tell me what you think I want.

Doesn't even have to be a full chapter, you know? It could be just a thought. It could be, it has to be from the heart. Just like the shadow baby. Or the dick, depending on what you believe. Eliana, great answers. I'm glad we had this conversation. Me too.

Honestly, though, I really didn't think about it at first. But now that I'm thinking about it, I'm almost 700% certain there are not male shadow binders. It really feels like there aren't. Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised. All right. And then we also got an email of note from Leanne. And Leanne says,

I started listening to your podcast a while ago. I love your analysis and references to all the kids' films and cartoons. As you all know, we just made a reference to Avatar The Last Airbender. When I first started listening, I skipped Barristan, Quentin, and Ariane because I was too excited to hear what you had to say about Sansa.

Now that I'm all caught up, I've gone back to listen to these POVs and couldn't help but... And they put it in parentheses badly. I'm gonna... That needs to be nixed, right? But draw Chloe a Quentin tattoo. It is so good. It's really good. I've never seen, I mean, we've had some fan art before, and I love every piece of fan art we get.

It makes my life. We could lose our entire platform, and these five pieces of fan art, that's all I want. But this one, it has, and I'm going to describe it for you all. But this one, it has, and I'm going to describe it for you all. If you want to see it, I think we're going to ask Leanne if it's okay to post it on Twitter and on Patreon, but we will post it. It has Quentin thinking, and it's important because there is a distinction between the thought bubble and the talk bubble. That's right. You didn't notice that? I didn't notice that.

Man, this is a deep picture. It's detailed. Quentin is thinking locust, but he's's saying dog and it shows a dog speaking and i just i was moved can we make this our cover photo on twitter yep i'm not joking i'm being very serious oh me either so thank you because this has given me so much joy same same we were actually discussing should we distribute it should like Chloe get like the dog tattooed and me the locust but then as she pointed out she has less

of an affinity towards dogs and already has a tattoo of House Clegane and the hound right right and I do feel the locust are more associated with me so I was like do I just get both the locust and the dog and Chloe gets the Quentin hmm i don't know but i'm interested and i really think there could be a lot of detailed line work going on with the locust so i'm excited to see it upon your body so thank you

leanne for this it brought us great joy chloe actually immediately messaged it to me when the email came in because i hadn't checked her email in a bit. I have to update some of my access on my different devices, but she like immediately sent that. Thank you again, Leanne. We did get one last email of note we're going to bring up tonight. We will definitely come back with some more in our next Jamie

episode. Our friend Milo sent us an email saying that they have been catching up on the backlog of A Song of Ice and Fire episodes. Awesome because I know there's a backlog. We have been very adamant. So take your time, everyone. Enjoy them, please. Milo says he's caught up no longer. Are there any previous ones to listen to? Therefore, you can keep up with them each week. Awesome. And wanted to say how much he appreciates the thought we put in each episode. In regards to last week's episode, it's admittedly a very close contest, but his favorite win of the episode was the term kettle wince.

Thank you, Milo. Thank you. I win once again. Sorry, Eliana. I don't, I mean, you had a lot of really good ones last week. As Jimmy Mack on Twitter pointed out, most of those lines were you. Jimmy Mack is the best. We met Jimmy Mack back at Fire out most of those lines were you. Jimmy Mack is the best. We met Jimmy Mack back at Fire and Blood, actually, but he always posts weekly the highlights from our episodes to us.

He says, oh, these are my highlights, and same with Not A Cast. And I don't watch to see when they're posted. Don't worry, Jimmy Mack. She's counting how many are hers. But there was also, who was it? Someone pointed out last week that I haven't been fired in a while and I would just like to point out that in fact I think Chloe made fireable offenses last week

not me so hmm well unless you can quote them to me Eliana the difference is Chloe and I have different like requirements and qualifications in the job description we have for co-hosts.

So whatever is a fireable offense on my part is to me actually a promotable offense. Not offense, a promotable asset whenever Chloe does it. I'm like, promoted! You get a raise! She owns the company! Somehow she passed our executive producer.

We're just the talent, you know? Alright, well we have some other fun announcements, Eliana. Why don't you lead us in on those? Yeah, we have other fun announcements. It's not just us getting new tattoos. It's... So I'm excited to join up with our friends,

Alicia Kingston and Monaro from Monaro Geek TV. Some of the mad queens that you might know this coming Saturday. So that'll be Saturday, June 20th. You can find them on YouTube. We'll have links in the description. And we can't wait to hang out with them. And, you know, we actually have met them a few times at Ice and Fire Con,

which, alas, has been moved to Halloween. Hollow weekend! I can't wait for that, at least, as long as, alas, has been moved to Halloween. Hollow weekend! I can't wait for that, at least, as long as, you know, it happens and the nation isn't imploded. No, I'm really excited. It's called their ginger ale chats, right? So we're gonna lean back with a drink. I hear there might be some lipstick afoot or a lip, so to speak. And I think we're gonna have a blast.

Eliana's planning a meta about George R. R. Martin and his preference on body types. So make sure to tune in on that. I think we're going to just kind of kick back and just blow off some A-Swap steam with these ladies. And I'm really excited to hang out with Alicia and Minaro. So tune in for that. However, we're going to be channeling some classic you know drunk ass history maybe energy the good days

the good old days the old alma mater that's where I graduated from drunk ass history kid hard knocks now sober girls come with canon she's not sober right now next week yeah yeah, and Alicia and Minaro are not the only

excitements in our life. Next week we are skipping out on Jamie. We have to catch up on our His Dark Materials crowd, but the wait will be worth it, Jamie fans, because the week after that, I believe that's, what, 4th of July week, we'll be having the Don Willie coming on

for Jamie 6 in A Feast for Crows. You probably know him from the hype swatch from his own channel, A Don of Ice and Fire, where he has hours of videos on his opinions of ice and fire. I myself was just listening to some of the fire and blood stuff he put out. Since it's been, what, we were just chatting, two years? 2018, is that when? Oh my god. Holy crap.

So, yes yes check it out youtube link down below and he will be with us very excited to have him yeah I'm really excited and you know because we say that the Cersei chapters are closely tied with the Jaime chapters we have like discussed I've joined Don Willey on the Hypes Watch

with a bunch of our other friends to discuss Cersei the time that she arms the faith before. So I'm excited to join up with Don Willey again. And, I mean, he hasn't been making stuff recently, and I think he's finally making a comeback, so it's really exciting to have him re-entering the fandom.

I'm very excited, and I'm sure we'll get some nice spicy takes, because next week's episode's fun. He's got spicy takes. Yes, yes. I actually remember the night of fire and blood when we got the book release we were at whatever bars over there in jersey city and we were all standing around i was like you're coming and hanging out you don't have a choice i don't even remember what it was but he and i were just like in a corner getting drunk just

debating a song about it's probably about sans or some stupid shit but we were just getting bombed in a corner and there is a picture of me like very and you know I'm animated like I'm moving my hands right now at you you know I'm animated uh but I was very animated so I hope there's a lot of that happening again I did about all of that and and then finally of course we have our patreon episode this month which we we finally landed on something it is going to be about historic materials and you know fun times for historic materials fans because we can finally do this project oh why is it because you finished the book i mean maybe i mean what have we got cooking ch? For those of you that have not read the His Dark Materials series, we are planning on covering La Belle Sausage. I mean, La Belle Sauvage.

It is one of the spinoffs of the main series of His Dark Materials. If you haven't read it, I highly, highly recommend it. And the spinoff series are called The Books of Dust. And the first one is called La Belle Sauvage. And it's amazing. It's kind of a prequel, not really. It's like the Dunkin' Egg of His Dark Materials. So give it a read.

We're really excited. We're going to do maybe one to two chapters to start. And we're hoping that in between finishing the book that we're working on right now, the second book in the main series, The Subtle Knife, and between season two of the show coming out, we might be able to dig in and get LaBelle Sauvage done. Yeah, I know that it's a little up in the air

right now as to when we will get season two, because it sounds like there were some things that needed to be wrapped up on filming that they were just almost done with. But alas, here we are. The world is different now. Yeah, the world's different. We'll world's different we'll hang out we will uh

try labelle sauvage and see where we get to you know and the beautiful sausage all right aliana lightning round let's just jump into it everyone because jamie five is good it's deep there's a lot thanks for listening we missed you all so sometimes it's nice just to chat with you at the beginning that's all it is it is and but now we're gonna chat about brienne six brienne seeks the stark girls on the quiet aisle but finds outlaws and rehabilitated broken men instead uh cersei 7 we learn about Meere's environment which is very thick swampy and moist

that really threw me off when we did the Meere episode I had to stop and think does Meere even actually have swamps or do I only think this because of this episode you only thought it because of time I mean it's a very it's a very prominent

it's a very prominent moment in this book. But also prominent is something that happens at the end of this chapter, Jamie 5, where Jamie continues on his what-the-fuck-kind-of-man-am-I Lannister tour

and stops to see Davin and Jenna on his way to Riverrun. Yes, and we opened this chapter with such a good line. George is killer at those opening lines that are just full of prose. The trumpets made a brazen blare and cut the still blue

air of dusk. Also, horny. Horny episode again. Yes, we have quite a few horny episodes with Jaime, which, you know, maybe is why it corresponds with Jon's chapters. Pax scrambles to his feet, ready to get Jaime ready for war, but Jaime tells him outlaws don't blow trumpets when they show up. It's Davin, his cousin, the Warden of the West.

Chainmailed and furred and japing with Jamie. Random thought that just made me think, does that mean like that when the others come, there's not going to be like a horn? Whatever. Anyway, Jamie has a crew, including Peck. We all already know Peck. Quite a few sons and squires this chapter.

Just collecting kids. The men compare beards, and we get a description of Davin's bushy beard, his mustache, and his long yellow hair he tells Jamie he's not cutting his hair until he avenges his father but he actually turns out as he admits, been robbed of that

vengeance because Crosswalk was killed by Rob he's been robbed wow I didn't even mean that one. Please let me keep this job. You are hired. I am fighting to stay on.

And it is not significant. But it is interesting to me that it kind of sounds like Davin's appearance feels to me Northen-like, maybe even Carcer-like with his beard, but I don't think that means anything. I don't know. I think you're onto something. We'll talk a little more as we dig into what he says, but it does feel like maybe the North men and these Westerlin men aren't that different. You know, like maybe they really aren't that different.

Maybe they're just men. Wow. I don't know. A little deep, right? Like I go from a pun to being too deep. I'm so sorry. Davin continues half-joking about pretty seriously traumatic stuff with Jamie, right? Jamie's captured by the Starks. He's like, oh, but the girls in Lannisport were mourning for you, cuz.

And his hand being cut off, Davin's like, oh, I thought that Stark bitch took it. And Jamie's like, nope, it was Fargo.go and he thinks where do these tales come from and maybe it's because Jamie's finally growing up and like learning that Lannister propaganda that gets sent around the country might not be correct and because this is the first time he's gotten to be a part of it in this level right like he always had that Kingsguard lair before and that kind of naivete before but also where are they coming from is really the question we know where they're coming from lannister camp because the war stories that are being passed through there hearken right to some of this misinformation

we've seen about sansa for example or about rob how the starks are winged yeah and what i love about this chapter and i think is interesting is there's a lot of rumors that are going around. There's a lot of mistruths being told. This one most prominently. But, you know, some of it is around like, oh, what's going on with Beric Dondarrion? Right? And what they're getting from all that

gossip, those hangings that are going on. And of course, it's not a rumor, but there is a lie that Jaime is going to tell Jenna about her son later. Devin complains that Tywin should have sent him foraging instead of the brave companions and

Jaime asks him to come inside and talk. There's this line. Some tasks are fit for lions, he said, but foraging is best left for goats and dogs. Lord Tywin's very words, Jamie knew. He could almost hear his father's voice. This whole chapter is just reeking with Tywin, and it's the worst.

I sympathize for you, Jamie. Little Lou is there to attend them, and Davin correctly guesses he's a piper. And he's like, oh, you're a runt. That's how I know. And he tells him, I beat your brother bloody in a melee once. The runty little fool took offense when I asked him if that was his sister dancing naked on the shield. She's the sigil of our house. We don't have a sister.

More's the pity. Your sigil has nice teats. What sort of man hides behind a naked woman though every time I thumped your brother's shield I felt unchivalrous I kind of felt like there was some sort of uh some sort of Brienne Jamie foreshadowing in this right like I don't know

what kind of man hides behind a naked woman especially with Jamie and Brienne in the bathhouses and his confusion between you know loving brienne and loving cersei and i don't know maybe this is something about like hiding behind brienne versus meeting his fate eventually i don't know yeah yeah there's that and like what was happening in that dream that he had i was strangely thinking of daenerys but not people hiding but like her uh sort of being in front of people right to be out yeah but you know it is it is interesting to me how davin's really hot for this shield laugh then we also get next uh laughing jamie like comes to lose defense right he's like that's so funny that my cousin's warning me about a shield. And asks Davin

what what is he gonna find? What will he meet at the Siege of Riverrun while Pia is there mulling wine for them? She's come along on all this. Davin says that the siege is dragging on, the Blackfish is inside the castle,

it's all boring! He wishes there would be a battle to get rid of some river lenders and some frays uh interesting he's like i'm bored let's just have people kill each other very lannister he's like but especially he's like like ryman or lord emin of riverrun who is being very obnoxious at dictating how they take his castle during siege i mean i get it they're pretty annoying like yes i want to be mad at him for being all war is good and kill people have fun like war fun have fun do crimes be straight david lannister um but also i do like that he's like oh i'd love to kill ryman or emin fuck those guys

like you know maybe some lannisters do deserve a couple rights. Maybe some. Yeah. It's a nuanced take. He's like, yeah, nuanced. Kill Ryman and Eamon. Nuanced. Peck serves their wine on a golden platter and Davin asks, who's this guy? Who's Peck? Peck introduces himself and Jaime's like, yeah, Peck was a hero on the Blackwater. Davin mocks his beard and says, Stannis' wife has a thicker mustache. Fuck off.

Asking how old he is. Fifteen, sir. Sir Davin snorted. You know the best thing about heroes, Jamie. They all die young and leave more women for the rest of us. He tossed the cup back to the squire. Fill that bowl again and I'll call you a hero too.

I have a thirst. So when I hear this I kind of worry and I think it's kind of a justified worry after what happens in season 8 but like this line is about Jamie and it probably is and I mean I don't know how young he's considered in like Westerosi

years. For me I'm like yeah, Jamie's I don't know if I'd call him a young man anymore but he's a man. He's not like old this could be considered dying young but Davin was just saying how all the girls are crying about Jamie Lannister

and it is interesting so I do kind of wonder if this line is about Jamie leaving the women for the rest of them but it's also interesting to me how often this Jamie's desirability gets brought up. Because Jaime doesn't really care about it compared to, like, how often, like, Cersei thinks about it in her chapters. And that speaks, of course, to how gender functions in Westeros.

It also speaks to his self-worth, right? Like, Jaime doesn't see himself as the hero. He doesn't see himself as a golden, beautiful hero. Like Jaime doesn't see himself as the hero. He doesn't see himself as a golden, beautiful hero. Yes, he quite obviously should know better because he's been very privileged, not just with the name of Lannister, but like to be an attractive Westerosi with his golden hair and his Kingsguard status. That's something that a lot of small folk would probably murder to have. Right.

But I would say as far as young, I mean, he's in his mid 30s, right? Mid 30s? Something like that? Something like that? Something like that. Early to mid. Yeah. And we discussed Arwen Frey, who only comes up the one time, but he was said to be young, right?

Like, Jaime literally calls him young Arwen Frey, and he's about 30-something years old. So to me, I think it works. I think Jaime's definitely younger, and I definitely think it's foreshadowing. Absolutely. I mean, they all die young and leave more women for the rest of us. Yeah, I mean, Jamie doesn't need to die. He's already leaving all the women for the rest of you.

He's out there being like, Peck. That girl. You should thank her. Yeah, she wants some. Jamie, actually a successful matchmaker. Honestly. Like, seriously. Jamie reminds Davin that he was speaking about

dead Freys, though. And Davin adds Walter Rivers to the list. Walter Rivers hates being a bastard, but he also hates everyone who's not a bastard. And I'm going to be honest, after doing what was the series I used to do back then, of thank god it's fray day it was hilarious yes walder rivers is fascinating he's a very fascinating character also called bastard walder and i'd love to talk about him more sometime and he's a character that i really hope we get more of in the winds of winter

yeah and if you're ever looking for fray content, there are two fray people we ever recommend. Fat Walda, of course, has good opinions, especially in the fray day threads, because I used to read a lot of those over on Reddit on our A Song of Ice and Fire, our Aswath, and our really good friend Pat Dougherty also has written a bit about the frays.

I'll have to find a link and pop it in the description because he is like if i have questions about the phrase i just hit him a message to go pat can you explain this to me and i'm sure as we get through the next chapters i will be messaging him yes definitely he's also got uh blackfire content so yes check pat out so davin adds hey sir perwin seems all right and the woman too i'll spare them then he talks about how he's supposed to marry a fray girl which is thanks to tywin's deals and earlier you were talking about how he almost seems like a northman right davin lannister almost has this northman look to him and this is kind of the same as the starks right cadillac and rob liked perwin and

the girls davin is promised to affray against his will like edmure i mean they're just men definitely and but they've they've learned from other people's mistakes i guess and for sure but also like perwin and his brothers, though, they are legit. I will vouch for them personally. I will. So Perwin is one of the children between Walder and Bethany Rosby, right? So Bethany Rosby kind of seems to not be awful, right? I mean, the Rosbys in general seem to have a decent kind of, for the most part, before now when there's no one

in Rosby to have the inheritance, but Bethany Rosby seemed like a decent character, like, well, decently fleshed out for a Priya saga by some player character. And I know that people talk about, like, Oliver and them in the context of there's the Rosby heir and inheritance

thing that, I i guess people like to theorize about so they're all candidates and in that discussion so if you want to look into that i'm not going to explain it i forgot it i actually tried to explain it once and then i forgot it entirely i might have just too many podcast i think it was and there's just too many there's just too many phrase and too many inheritances. We're going to talk about some inheritance later with Riverrun, and as I sat there with such a simple amount of people to speak about, I was like, nope, too much.

Just have one kid. Just be an only child like me. I don't know. Brilliant. We did it. So back before Oxcross, Davin's dad was treating with the Redwines. And Davin was to marry a heavily dowered, freckled daughter, Desmera. And I think this in kind of juxtaposed against Cersei V, when you think about it, is really interesting.

Because she's bitching about the Redwines and how they should have the big fleet and they should be able to defend the sea while they're busy with the siege, of course. So I thought this was kind of really interesting parallel to think about with Cersei 5 and Jaime 5. The conversation turns to some of the other Freys, like Lancel's wife, and Davin is really grateful he missed out on that one. Jaime explains Lancel didn't pick, Kevin picked, to win the dairy smallfolk to their side. Davin says, how? By fucking them? You know why they call her Gatehouse Amy, right? She raises her portacolas

for every night who happens by. Davin, we don't slut shame. We're sex positive here. We don't sex shame. We shame Gatehouse Amy for many other reasons, as we found out last episode. Turns out, as you said last episode, being sex positive isn't enough to make us like a character.

I still hate you, Gatehouse Amy. That really blew up in our faces. Yeah, that really blew up in our faces last episode. Jamie says, it makes no matter. Same Jamie, same. Lancelot abandoned his marriage to go join the High Sept in Swords to Devon's astonishment. Then we have this quote.

When Jaime had taken his leave of Lady Amory, she had been weeping softly at the dissolution of her marriage, whilst letting Lyle Crakehall console her. Her tears had not troubled him half so much as the hard looks on the faces of her kin, as they stood about the yard.

I hope you do not intend to take vows as well cuz he said to davin the frays are prickly where marriage contracts are concerned i would hate to disappoint them again yep davin says uh basically he's like you'll wet in bed the stoke never fear whatever he's like shields make me hor. How much harder can it be when there's, like, a real woman, right? But he also says that he should pick a virgin. According to Edwin, Blackwalder has likely been all over the other girls and Amy more than thrice. And interesting, interesting. I'm here, though, to stand up for Stats aka ermines uh i am a stoat stand because

of his dark materials and lyra where the demon pantalimon takes the form of a of an ermine very often so yes and uh you're not a stoat stand because of the fray girls. That's what I'm hearing. I'm afraid not. Well, you should probably get some new laces. So they discussed Kevin's chilly courtesy as he rode through the camps. Davin had told Kevin he hadn't wanted the Warden of the West's job, and

Kevin said he had no grudge. Though his responses, his actions, his tones kinda said otherwise. Kevin left after three days of barely any communication. Our friends of Frey would not have dared vex Sir Kevin the way they've been vexing me, says Davin. This line reminds me of how Cersei speaks about Tywin throughout all of Feast, honestly, but specifically in Cersei V. She was tired of Jaime balking her. No one had ever balked her lord father. When Tywin Lannister

spoke, men obeyed. When Cersei spoke, they felt free to counsel her, to contradict her, even refuse her. And we do get an exact use of vex in this chapter from cersei about jamie actually she could not even trust her own blood and kin nor jamie who had once been her other half he was meant to be my sword and shield my strong right arm why does he insist on vexing me yeah that's interesting and i i do you think she's a little wrong, right? You've seen Jamie Bach at Tywin. That was, like, a big part of the books and

his story. But at the same time, like, I think that likening Cersei and Davin here is... makes a lot of sense, especially because we see Cersei wrestling with that a lot in the chapter right before this. And I mean, at least Davin, though, knows he's like,

I deserve this. He's like, I deserve to be balked. I truly don't want to deal with this. Yeah, he really didn't want this. He didn't ask for this cup to pass to him at all. He really didn't. I think part of it is him being like, Jaime, can you just deal with this for me that's half this chapter well it is because cersei literally gave it to him to fuck over kevin it was totally like a fuck you move it was a flip you off move

it's kind of like i'm sorry i didn't want this gift that i was given kind of thing yeah and it's kind of funny when you think about like something that i thought of as we were reading this chapter and all that stuff about the Warden. And remember, it was such a big deal in the first book when that Stark was all like, wait, so you mean Tywin Lannister's Warden of the West? And you're about to fucking make Jaime Lannister Warden of the East, too? Mm-hmm. And so it's a lot of crazy shit happening in westeros right now absolutely davin tells jamie of rhyme and phrase mummers show that keeps happening every day they bring edmure tolya throw a noose on him threaten to kill him unless the blackfish yields and then the blackfish doesn't

yield edmure gets taken down and it happens the very next day. Edmure's wife Roslyn is with child from the Red Wedding. Talk about a strong seed. She prays for a girl, and Jamie gets why. If a son's born, Lord Walder doesn't need Edmure at all. And Emin, their uncle-in-law, wants Edmure dead too, so he can have his fancy castle. So there's definitely something going on here with the imagery of Ryman Frey's, I guess, inability to hang Edmure against the backdrop of like, I don't know, this corpse is hanging from the trees all over the fucking place.

Because a different Tully is going around hanging Frey's. Good for her. Good for her. Good for her. No, that's actually a really great call. I didn her. Good for her. Good for her. No, that's actually a really great call. I didn't even think about that. You just can't go through with it. But of course, Davin tells us about Gawain Westerling,

whose wife and children are in Riverrun as hostages, and he won't stop yelling at him to not hang Edmure in case the Tullys decide to retaliate. Jamie can't remember what Jeyne musterling looks like, but thinks she must have been pretty good looking if Rob threw the North

away for her. And I do think it's funny that the way that Jaime thinks about how Jeyne must have been really beautiful to be worth losing a kingdom over. And I can't help but think that that's the story that's evolved about Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar and how that all went down.

And because we're going to see later on, right, Jaime's going to be like, I don't know, Jane's okay, I guess. And we know that it wasn't Jane's looks, right, that Rob married her for as opposed to honor. But it is interesting of Jaime to judge considering that, you know, Jaime missed her throw my whole life away for a beautiful woman who happens to also be my sister yeah this chapter is absolutely spent with Jamie once more projecting into every single situation he comes into because he's dealing with some heavy shit right yeah and I think the bigger thing about Jane is like it's not even that he's like I don't know she's okay it's like she's a girl she's just a girl when he sees her she's just a girl who's ripped her dress and you know pissed about her

crown being taken away and she's crying and wailing about it and she's just a girl that's cersei in cersei 5 when yeah she's remembering rhaegar and her betrothal being taken away from her that's young cersei when her betrothal's taken away from her. That's young Cersei when her betrothal is taken away from her. Obviously, Jeynes is a little more realistic because her was murdered. Right. Her husband was murdered. And she was also used by the entire family as a honeypot. And, you know, we'll get there.

Absolutely. It's even Cersei now in some ways. Yeah. Jaime assures Davin that the Blackfish will not kill the children, and asks what the current situation is ahead at the castle. The wall is encircled by the frays. Forley Pruster and the River Lords who came over

to the Lannisters after the Red Wedding. Quote, unquote. He thinks of them as a sullen lot. Davin's camp is between the rivers, and he says, they've set a boom up across the Red Fork, defended by Manfred You and Raynard Riddiger. They fish for the camps as well.

Some of these names are fun. Riverrun has provisions for two years, and the Lannister camp does not. They are keeping up for now, but eventually they know the horses will go hungry. They're like, I guess we can just keep up for now, but eventually they know, you know, the horses will go hungry. They're like, I guess we can just keep fishing for us, though. But the Freys haul food and fodder from the twins,

but then they claim they don't have enough to share, so the river has been full of every man foraging for themselves. Wow, and those men that are foraging for themselves, do you think they're going to get in any fights across other men as they forage, and like, slowly are they're going to get in any fights across other men as they forage? And like, slowly, are they just going to like break apart across themselves?

I could see that happening. Yeah, they're going to fray. Oh my god. So, many of the foraging parties have been deserting, like I just said. And many others are found hanging from trees, as Jamie had come across the day before last. The corpses had been stripped naked, and each man a crabapple shoved between his teeth. None bore any wounds, plainly they had yielded. Davin thinks it may be outlaws, or maybe random bands of northmen. And these lords

of the trident may have bent their knees, but methinks their hearts are still wolfish. Jaime glanced at his two younger squires who were hovering near the brassieres, pretending not to listen. Lewis Piper and Gerrit Page were both the sons of river lords. He'd grown fond of both of them and would hate to have to give them to Ser Ilyn. That reminds me a lot of Daenerys and Jon simultaneously in A Dance with Dragons, dealing with their own little hostage kind of situations. Yeah, that's a great parallel. And even like, I guess Theon was kind of in that situation too. He's one of those. I just think it's interesting that Jaime has magically sprouted two squires on top of his current one. Like, how many is too many? many? Can you really teach all these

children, Jamie? I think by the end of the books, he's just going to have a big adoption list of kids that he's going to make Tommen sign, because Tommen's going to live forever. They chat on the nooses, which suggests Beric. Beric to them, but Davin

laughs it off. Many men know how to tie nooses. Yeah, I mean, common knot. You need it for fishing. But he does think that he's been around. He thinks that the river lords are helping conceal the marcher lord. One day you hear

the man is dead. The next you're saying how he can't be killed. Yeah, that's interesting because they're all like, I don't think it's barak but i think it is it's kind of like the boogeyman or like a weird like what's an urban legend you know like a chain forward that you forget to sign and then you see someone in the mirror uh it's like they just want to put their worries into barak don darian being the one doing it, but we the reader know it's not him, homie.

It's way scarier, to be honest, but it actually is. No, he died bringing what it was to life. Yeah. It's way more terrifying, especially if you're a Frey. At night there are signal fires, which is part of it, and a ring of watchers

and fires in the village. This made me think of the Free Folk attacking at the Wall. Oh! Yeah, about all the ring fires and everything. I thought that was interesting. Yeah, there's a lot of similar imagery. But the fires are really prominent. Davin says they worship a new god, but Jamie thinks, no, it's an old one. Ooh, spoopy.

I see you, George, with your Lovecraft shit. Right? Thoros of Myr is with them, and Jamie touches his golden hand on the table, saying they'll deal with him if they must, but Brynden the Blackfish must come first. I, too, think we should eradicate Brynden B. Fish first, but listen, Jamie,

we have other things to do. Sir Ryman Frey had tried to treat with them, half drunk, making threats, but the Blackfish shows up, says fuck off, and puts an arrow in the horse's ass. Jamie gives a half smile. He's like, I plan to wear a garget when I go, and I mean to offer generous terms. He thinks this, of course, because of his vow when I go, and I mean to offer generous terms. He thinks this, of course, because of his vow to Catelyn. He plans to get it all over with and get back to Cersei, where he's quote-unquote needed. Davin brightly asks, why did Cersei send Kevin away? He should have been Hand, or you, cuz.

Jaime's like, well, you know, I mean, we all know why it happened we were all there i do find it interesting that david says this like he he says that line right like i hope i hope he knows i never asked for this regarding kevin and that's something that comes up in the story a lot right from like ned thinking about brandon and most especially, most prominently, I think, in Stannis, being like, I never asked for this. Also in Jon's a little. But, Jon's quite a bit. But, you know, at the very least,

I find that Davin really embodies a person that I think means it when they say, I never asked for this, in a way, you know? He's just really like it I really do not want to be here he really oozes that and it's like Jamie can you do

this for me and he keeps saying this like as though he's like maybe maybe I can get out of it yeah he's like maybe if I say this enough times Jamie can pull some strings then Kevin can be hand and I can just go back to tracking off the shields.

I'm not gonna get over that. Not even that! His freckled waifu. Like, all he wanted was to get this beautiful red-headed freckled bitch, house red wine girl, Desmera, you know, and just like, go to the arbor with her on vacation and eat grapes with her and live a

normal life. That sounds great. Yeah, he didn't want, it doesn't even matter if that girl was covered in freckles like Jamie was making fun of her. Like, he didn't care. That sounds hot. That sounds awesome. A freckled girl in the sun kissing her, eating grapes. I'd do it. It'd be better than war.

Yeah. And he's like not even doing like the part of war that he likes apparently. He's like, I'm just sitting here and everyone sucks. He's like, I hate all these people. So. Yeah. Dalvin asks if Cersei is as beautiful as ever and Jaime's

like, radiant and golden. But in his head he thinks, fickle. False as fool's gold. Huh. Pretty funny. Come a long way, Jaime. come a long way Jamie come a long way Jamie I'm in the breakup he remembers his dream from the night

before where he dreamt that he found her fucking moon boy and he had smashed her teeth in like the mountain did to Pia after killing moon boy and he has two hands in this dream now. One normal, one gold, but they both operate normally. This is a big

okay, Jamie. Interesting. This is not the best Jamie. So interestingly enough, this is almost exactly what Lancel dreamed about right in the last chapter. He dreamed Jamie killed him for fucking Cersei.

I dreamed that you would come. In the dream, you knew what I had done, how I'd sinned. You killed me for it. So I think that's interesting that last chapter, he hears that from Lancel. And then this chapter, he actually dreams it with Moonboy instead. And I've noticed that of the dreams that we get for killing in A Song of Ice and Fire, where someone kills someone in their dreams, and I'm not counting wolf dreams.

Fuck the Starks. We're not talking about them right now. We can talk about Theon V and Clash of Kings, for example, because that's kind of the first dream that we see. Last night in his dream, he had been in bed with her once again, but this time she had teeth above and teeth below, and she tore out his throat even as she was gnawing off his manhood. It was madness. He'd seen her die, too. A closer look at a lot of these killing dream mentions, though, are bringing something up in common. The most of the dreams where someone kills someone in their dreams that are not wolf dreams show up in brienne five jamie five and tyrian two in a dance with dragons in brienne five we get brienne killing the brave

companions in her dream the danced around her mocking her pinching at her as she slashed at them with her sword she cut them all to bloody ribbons, yet they still swarmed around her. And then she begins to get the visions of people like Ronit in her dream. And she thinks, Ronit had a rose between his fingers. When he held it out to her, she cut his hand off. So it's almost like she chopped that hand off and sent it right on down the river to Jamie in time for his dream, which of course, when she chops it off in that dream, it's kind of happening alongside the same time when Jaime sends Red Rotted away. Interesting.

Sort of weird cosmic dream energy. Yeah, absolutely. Well, and we know Jaime's affinity for falling asleep on weirwood stumps. So, dream, dream. Tyrion, too, in a dance dance with dragons not a dream with dragons that night tyrian lannister dreamed a battle that turned the hills of westeros as red as blood he was in the midst of it dealing death with an axe as big as he was fighting side by side with barist in the bold and bitter steel as dragons wheeled across the sky above them. In the dream he had two heads, both noseless.

His father led the enemy, so he slew him once again. Then he killed his brother, Janie, hacking at his face until it was a red ruin, laughing every time he struck a blow. Only when the fight was finished did he realize his second head was weeping. Yes. And that's a significant dream for this chapter

in many ways yeah this stood out to me too first of all i want to come back to the thing about lancelot you know it's so funny how he'd sinned lancelot you didn't sin if you don't come inside it's not treason um but it stood out to me that like, again, regarding Jamie's hands, like earlier in Jamie's storyline, right after his hand is cut, he says that he still dreams of himself with those two hands. And as we all know, Jamie with two hands, like didn't give a fuck about anyone or anything. He's just like, whatever, I'm gonna just throw kids out of windows for their health. anything he's just like whatever i'm gonna just throw kids out of windows for their health and now we see him striving to be better though it's a bit iffy here and there as he decides like what course am i gonna take to secure river run and we've very consciously right seen jamie trying to improve and then right now he's kind of every now and then remembering his balance to Catelyn. So here he, in this dream, has two hands. One is gold and still functions like a normal hand, though.

It just happens to be gold. And by the last chapter of this book, though, where Joanna Lannister is all like, this isn't a dream, Jaime! He only has one hand, and the dream is sad and spooky and shit. But I do wonder if later on, when Jaime dreams, like, actually a dream, not like a weird later on when jamie dreams like actually a dream not

like a weird wood dream that's saying it's not a dream but you know actually a dream so the idealized form of himself and how he sees himself where he envisions what it means to be powerful right like are we gonna see him transform into dreaming of himself with two hands but maybe one of those hands is the gold one but functions as his current like shitty fake gold hand does and you know basically pretty fucking useless and then maybe finally like dream of himself with only one hand realizing that the hand that gave him a lot of that societal power through masculinity martial power as he thinks of the hand that i killed aries with the hand that i fucked cersei with right but it brought him so many other problems.

Will he start dreaming of himself without that hand as he accepts who he is and goes on a different path? I hope so. I think that's an idea definitely to come because he is self-actualizing. I'm really excited for our guest for the last episode of the book and we cannot talk about it yet, but that was a little teaser to those listening uh but i'm sure we're gonna have some talks about this with dreams in

that episode and i really hope moving forward he self-actualizes himself as this is who you actually are and he accepts it because this whole journey in the riverlands really feels like he's just trying to figure out who the fuck he is. Yeah, which is same. Yeah, we all are, man. We all are. We're on that road. At least not all of us are kids out of windows.

You know, there's that. Yeah, we're all just floating down the Red Fork, man, looking for ourselves. So Jamie leaves Davin after another hour of bullshitting, and he dons his brown Cersei cloak cosplay, his traveling cloak. He walks the river, and he thinks, you know, I actually kind of like this life. He feels more comfortable in the field amongst soldiers and young knights than he does at court. He watches washerwomen playing chicken mounted on men-at-arms in the river, one is Raph the Sweetling, and he bets a copper star on the match on the blonde one laughing with them yeah it's interesting to me he bets on the blonde one

which reminds me a little of when tyrian was like i always bet on my brother jamie that's cute i was thinking of it with him in regards to cersei of betting on the blonde girl but i like the tyrian jamie thing a lot too i do he makes his way across the river and finds ill and pain shining his great sword and they go off to their dance we get the line underneath his steel and wool and boiled leather jamie lannister was a tapestry of cuts and scabs and bruises i just thought that was beautiful a tapestry again another tapestry. Again, another tapestry remark. Seems significant. A sentry comments at them as they leave, and Jamie tells them to stay vigilant, because there are wolves about.

They ride toward the burnt village they had passed on the way in. He and Illen Payne dance in the blackened stones and cinder. At first, Jamie's like, alright, these lessons have been paying off, and, you know, this time Illen Payne is the one who's going to be sword bruised tonight, but nope. By the end, Jamie is on his knees in the mud. Ilan Payne's sword is at his throat.

He thinks he should have challenged Rath's sweetling to water jousting instead. The last day of the journey is cold and gusty. It reminds me a little bit of the Storm of Swords weather out in the Riverlands as they got to the frays, actually. Even in his Kingsguard winter wools, he rides alongside Davin, and in the late afternoon, they finally see Riverrun. It looks like a great stone ship.

The walls are drenched in red-gold light. They are higher and thicker than Janie remembers. He worries he'll have to break his vow to Catelyn if the Blackfish doesn't break while he listens to the booms of the besieging armies. I do love this one line of, if the Blackfish would not listen, he would have no choice

but to break the vow he'd made to Catelyn Stark. The vow he'd sworn his king came first. i i think it's significant that that's happening right it's here at river run and jamie's returning to the place where he was held prisoner and it's also with this line that we start to see jamie truly tested as to how much he has changed especially because it ties in with that other iconic line that he spoke here at river run when he was in the dungeons to a different tully

so many vows they make you swear and swear so now we have jamie thinking that his vows to family or his king precede those that he made to a woman for his freedom a woman who's begging for the freedom of her daughters and perhaps even protecting in a way the vows that Brienne made in her honor, especially in the context of him suddenly thinking like the vows sworn to his king came first when we know that like

Jaime's big sin as we all know right? It's that he broke a similar vow to his king and everyone brings it up to Jaime all the fucking time. He's like thanks everyone didn it up to Jaime all the fucking time. He's like, thanks everyone. Didn't want to talk about that. It's like a big, uh, it's like it won't leave him alone.

Like, Jaime's trying to go rectify his entire situation, trampling through the riverlands, trying to do good, and yet at every turn someone's like, hey, Kingslayer. Hey, Kingslayer. Itlayer it's hard how could you change with that kind of pressure on you how could you look at tyrian yeah true true true tyrian lashes out tyrian says i'll be the monster you all believe me to be and it's hard how do you

go through this and somehow at the end of this book still come out thinking, I gotta change, I gotta keep going. Yeah. That is something that a person who felt nuanced about Jamie Lannister would say. Moving on. Sir Ryman's camp is the largest, as described, with the great gray gallows above the tents, as tall as any trebuchet. It turns out Ryman's basically got a mini court set up, complete with white-smile Watt the singer from Lannisport to attend Aunt Jenna. Jaime thinks better to have his head off and be done with it.

We get a line from Davin here. Couldn't we just dam the river and drown the whole lot of them, cuz? I thought it was kind of funny, and I know it's not intentional on George's part. And I know it's not intentional on George's part, because I don't think we get the actual how of the way that House Rain and the Tarbacks were killed until the World of Ice and Fire, which would have come out like, what, 10 years after this book came out? I'm so tired, Chloe. But it's interesting, nonetheless. Yeah, I guess we don't technically get the actual details till the World of Ice and Fire. That's interesting. The banners of House Tully stream above Riverrun, but the highest tower is flying something else.

The Stark banner. Good for them. Jaime tells Davin about the first time he saw Riverrun when delivering a message for Summoner Crakehall. Hoster Tully had feasted him while working on his response and sat Jamie next to Liza at every meal. Small wonder you took the white. I'd have done the same. Oh, Liza was not so fearsome as all that. She'd been a pretty girl in truth, dimpled and delicate with long auburn hair. Timid though, prone to tongue-tied silences and fits of giggles

with none of cersei's fire her older sister had seemed more interesting though catherine was promised to some northern boy the heir of winterfell but at that age no girl interested jamie half so much as hoster's famous brother who had won renown fighting the nine penny kings upon the stepstones i love this so much because i just imagine young jamie just like yeah tell me more mr blackfish and like liza's all tugging on his sleeve like jamie jamie jamie and he's like your uncle's talking definitely that's absolutely what he was like um and you kind of wonder you know what would it have been like if it had been a little different? But I wonder if Catlin was also like, yeah, Uncle Toby Moore. Very, very cool girl vibes, Catlin, I guess.

Which, you know, forms a basis. Like, the Jamie Catlin hate sex vibes go way back. Funny, though, that Jamie hardly does think about his imprisonment in Riverrun. I feel like it's not really brought up at all during this chapter the entire time that he's here and that this is kind of all he thinks about caitlin explicitly besides that one other mention of the vow that he made because i feel like you know caitlin's ghost or or zombie different undead thing um has been looming over this whole chapter from the hangings to like the references about the red wedding and the phrase right and yet this is one of the very few

mentions that jamie thinks of cat other than again that bauer when people ask like who took his hand and she's gonna come up more in conversation the chapter, but it kind of feels like Jamie's trying to push that out of his mind explicitly as he wrestles with what to do here. But the chapter keeps also trying to remind us, and it's like in the subconscious of Jamie, right? Catelyn Stark, Lady Stoneheart, she's here, this place is important to all that. I almost feel that he's completely avoiding the topic because he doesn't condemn it anymore either. He's trying to honor those vows that he made,

whether they were obviously in shitty position or not, and it kind of seems, especially in the beginning when it's brought up that, you know, oh, did Catelyn Stark cut your hand off cuz? Like, it almost feels like he's like, what? No! Why would you think that nice lady would do that that I want to fuck

um but you know what I mean like okay not that I'm being silly obviously if you haven't noticed when I'm being facetious come on y'all but am I but I mean are you I mean I'm not but really like it does feel like Jaime's not demonizing the

Starks for holding him hostage it feels like he's looking at things a lot more objectively. He's thinking, hey, I obviously would have and our family has done the same thing to them. Yeah, I feel like it's a combination of that and him not wanting to think about it because he doesn't want to break it, as you're saying, right? Yeah, he doesn't want to confront it either in the complexity that surrounds it. Though I do really love the view on Liza here. Yeah. I mean, I know I have my controversial take that Brienne's really not ugly. It's just like men are idiots. Agreed. There's beauty in everyone, you know what I mean?

People are just idiots in Westeros. I really don't think brienne's that ugly there's no way she's just awkward different i agree there's all that and also like i mean apparently jamie thinks that freckles are a turn off like jamie's tastes are questionable i'm gonna throw it out there they're niche they're very uh they're very I wouldn't say it's a refined palette. I'd just say it's like a palette. It's a... Yeah. Very picky. Very...

The pickiest of palettes that one can have. I appreciate that he like defends Liza though because again it's that whole thought process of oh Catelyn cut your hand off. It's just what they think. It's the rumor mill. And they think Liza's the rumor mill. And they think Lysa's a crazy ass, right? Like, they're just like, Lysa Arryn's crazy bones McGee and blah, blah, blah. And she's just nutso. And Jaime's like, no. And Catelyn thinks it too. I mean, the biggest shock in a Game of Thrones for Catelyn is that this isn't Lysa. This isn't the

girl I was married next to. We get a couple different lines. The Liza who came back from King's Landing is not the same girl who went south when her husband was named Hand. Those years were hard for her. You must know Lord Arryn was a dutiful husband, but their marriage was made from politics, not passion. And then later when

she meets Liza once more, as Catelyn held her, she remembered the slender, high-breasted girl who'd waited beside her that day in the sept at Riverrun. How lovely and full of hope she had been. All that remained of her sister's beauty was the great fall of thick auburn hair that cascaded to her waist. This is a recent fall. This is like the last few years this all happened. Liza was normal.

last few years this all happened liza was normal like she was a young woman trying to live her life was forced into this arranged marriage for swords to go to this war jamie doesn't judge her in that way jamie thinks she was fine little you know chatty or nervous or whatever but she's fine yeah and someone needs to fucking stand up for liza in this story, to be honest. Yeah. It's all that and like you said in these quotes, right? It had taken a toll on her. Not only was she forced into this loveless marriage, she was

also forced to have an abortion that she wasn't told about. And then manipulated by a guy for years who does eventually end up killing her. But I mean, you know, we don't see Liza's interiority, and while it doesn't show externally on Circe, through her chapters, we see the toll that being in a loveless marriage has taken on her.

How could it not change Liza? Like, she didn't even get the money. Her dad got the money. Do you get that? Like, it's not like she was banging him for money. It's like she was banging him so her dad could have money. Do you guys not get that? I'm just saying.

I'm just saying. That's worse. Creepy old men, if you get the money, sure. Okay? If you get the bag, girl. If you get the bag girl if you get the bag I digress she did her duty right

as we can see that wasn't fun and we get again that exploration through Cersei through Daenerys I mean it's absolutely traumatic through Daenerys' earlier chapters I mean is anyone else traumatized by everything in these books or is it just us

yeah so i mean i get it at least he's like no liza was all right back then but he did ignore liza because he's like whatever i don't actually care about girls right now that aren't related to me and as the brinden blackfish for more tales about Maelys the Monstrous and the Ebon Prince. Then Jaime reflects on this for a moment as they head to Davin's camp, first pressing through Emon's camp, first passing through the camps of

Riverlords, whose knees were forced to bend to Joffrey. There's Lichester, Vance, Root, Goodbrook, Smalford, and and piper they're all camped but the banner is that he doesn't see sieging riverrun feel more important where are malister bracken riger page they're all missing and they've allegedly bent the knee. Small note. Yeah, so Smalford is not a house. George describes it as the acorns of Smalford.

So my book says Smalford. I don't know if your version does. I don't know if it's been corrected, but I'm pretty sure that was supposed to be Smallwood. Oh, it's always fun when you see like those typos or like errors or a couple of them every now and then. Yeah. Jamie knows they have to end the siege as

soon as possible or the others who have no true loyalty to the throne will get bolder they reach the ford and kenos of case blows the horn of herrick which should at least bring blackfish out to the battlements to see what's going on they splash through the muddy waters carrying tommen standard and the king's guard standard amidst the new siege towers that are being hammered together. Peck asks where Jaime wants his tent set up. Jaime points, commands Adam to inspect the perimeter, and Davin asks if he should summon the stoats, Eliana's favorites for a council. But Jaime wants to speak to the Blackfish one-on-one first. but Jamie wants to speak to the Blackfish one-on-one first.

He sends John Bentley to shake the peace banner out and let Brynden know he wishes to meet with him at first light on the drawbridge. Peck, of course, is like, you're gonna get shot out there, man. And Jamie's like, nah, gangsters don't die, Peck. And Pia and Peck then help to start Jamie's fire. He often falls asleep to the sound of them fucking in the corner of the tent. Nice. Cute. And cute.

Finally, who strides into the tent just as he's getting out of his grieves? But Jenna Lannister. Frey. His aunt. She embraces him in a big hug, and we get a great description of Jenna. She held out her arms and left him no choice but to embrace her jenna lannister had been a sheeply woman in her youth always threatening to overflow her bodice now the only shape she had was square her face was broad and smooth her neck a thick pink pillar her bosom enormous she carried

enough flesh to make two of her husband jamie hugged her dutifully and waited for her to pinch his ear. She had been pinching his ear for as long as he could remember, but today she forbore. Instead, she planted soft and sloppy kisses on his cheeks. Oh, like a pupper. No, that's very sweet, though, because she's always pinched his ear

and today's the day where she realizes not the time and place. And I think a lot of people, especially in this story, but also in real life, could do with learning the time and place. And I think a lot of people, especially in this story but also in real life, could do with learning the time and place for things, you know? She offers him condolences for his loss, which Jamie thinks means his hand

immediately, and she's like, um, no. My brother, your father, who died. And she asks, oh, did they make you a golden father to replace Tywin, too? Probably be nicer. Yeah, probably. Wouldn't talk. If I recall correctly, this feels like a parallel to Joffrey when Tyrion returns to King's Landing and expresses his condolences to him.

He's like, I'm sorry for your loss. And Joffrey's like, what loss? And he's like, oh, you know, your father, he he was like big he had a beard he was king before you you might remember him if you try joffrey's like oh yeah right um and i do think that you know tywin is i do think that tywin is jamie's biological father and it does go to show same as as how, you know, Balin and Theon, right? They were distant. And Balin doesn't quite feel, I guess, like Theon's a son, whatever. But same as how Joffrey was chasing Robert's approval, he feels too distant to remember that, oh, yeah, that's right. I'm grieving. I suffered a loss. And Jaime, he's like, more shaken,

it seems, by the betrayal of Tyrion for longer than he is by the loss of his father, who was constantly disappointed by him, and whose legacy and approval I mean, all of them were chasing, and whose shadow they were all living under as explored in, like, literally the rest of this chapter, so we'll get to that. Yeah.

We do get now a great look, I say great, it's not now, a great look. I say great. It's not great. A look at Eamon Frey, who is nervous. He's anxious. He's skinny.

No chin. Huge Adam's apple. He's 60 and bald with some white wisps of hair left on top. And, of course, his line here is, A man such as Tywin comes but once in a thousand years, Jamie. This is the comfort he's providing his good nephew. Jenna is looking for the truth of the rumors of her brother's death, and Jamie goes, serving people, you should go.

So Jenna asks, did Tyrion really kill him? Or is this just a story Cersei's putting out? Which I also love that she's like can you differentiate because no one fucking knows Jaime tells her nope it is true and fumbles to get his golden hand off yeah

so oh that's an interesting I didn't catch that symbolism of like here he is he's gonna be real and honest now with his Aunt Jenna but yeah yeah versus the rumor about the cat in his hand Like, here he is. He's gonna be real and honest now with his Aunt Jenna. But, yeah, yeah. First is the rumor about the cat in his hand. It's true. Yes, my brother did kill my father. Salacious.

Yes, finally a truth, which is so funny because the Lannisters assume the Starks did everything. Like, the Starks are bad. They did it. But then it turns out, no, this was a Lannister on Lannister crime. For a son to raise his hand against a father sir emin said monstrous these are dark days in westeros i fear for us all with lord tywin gone he feared for us all when he was here jenna settled her ample rump upon a campstool which creaked alarmingly beneath her weight so i can't help but think of maile's the monstrous in this line and he was brought up a little bit earlier when jamie was all like tell

me more stories brent and tolly and tyrian right he's on the other side of the world as you brought up in that quote dreaming of himself as maile's the monstrous that that ends up being the reference when he thinks of himself with a second head oh and that does fit um there's also like a anti-parallel almost of tyrian looking up to jamie and jenna looking up to tywin right oh yeah and this with that and the maleous monstrous really highlights that huh jenna and emin ask about their son kleos's death, because yes, they are the persons that made Cleos, and Jaime lies. He's like, oh, we were attacked by outlaws. Cleos scattered them. He was so

brave. Cost his life. Eamon says, the boy was always brave. I did say so, you know. And Jetta's like, his bones should be interred into the Hall of Heroes beneath Casterly Rock. They ask Jaime where he was laid to rest. Jaime lies

he's like, beside a stream and uh we'll get his bones once the warring's over. But then of course he thinks bones were bones. Nothing's easier to come by than bones. And you know I never thought about it but the Hall of Heroes versus the crypts

of Winterfell. Yeah, that's likes of Winterfell yeah that's like the golden Winterfell crypts absolutely there's definitely something going on there and like you know people dreaming about those different places it also makes me think of something else that happens in this book when Jaime tells all this

that last line in Sansa's first chapter in the Feast for Crows of if a lie was kindly meant there was no harm in it. As Jaime's all like, yeah, Cleus was really rad as he was dying. It's like, no, he wasn't. But also as with this line of bones are bones

is another reminder, in my opinion, of the mystery of where are Eddard and Stork's bones after all? Oh, you know that Barbbara dustin is currently flossing with them she's trying to she's not there yet she's trying to get a hold of it they're not gonna go through her those are gonna get to winterfell i bet mage has them come on now they they gotta they gotta she's putting an effort though dad no speaking of war emin starts in with his request to jamie that they don't scar

his new castle river run he worries devon means to break the castle down with pitch and rams this is i'm gonna tell you an anecdote eliana buckle up are you ready okay when i was younger i had to have been like four years old my best friend came over and we had a swing set and we told my best friend consistently do not walk in front of the glider when someone's on the glider. What does she do? She walks in front of the glider. She gets her teeth like knocked out. My dad has to put them all in her mouth. Long story short, don't ask questions. He shoves them back into her mouth because we're like four or five years old. My mom had a brand new, and this is the, uh, God, the nineties. So my mom had a brand new Martha Stewart Kmart washcloth.

Right. And I was like, Dad, you can't use that. That's mom's brand new Kmart washcloth. And she'll be really mad at you if you use that to put my best friend's teeth back in her mouth. Now, as a four or five year old, I was more worried about the washcloth. Right. Where like my dad was like, dude, her teeth have fallen out of her mouth, kid.

Like, that's a little more important right now. And I can tell you that Eamon is not thinking about the teeth. He's just like, what if my castle burns down? And Jaime's like, dude, if your castle burns down, you have a lot bigger issues to deal with. Like, half of us are probably dead,

dipshit. Yeah, Eamon needs perspective. Eamon is thinking, like, four or five-year-old Chloe, and he's got to be thinking, like, 60-something-year-old non-Eamon Frey, I guess. Yeah, Eamon Frey needs to understand that you may not be able to get a Martha Stewart washcloth anymore, right? But you could still get a washcloth a fancy one if you want emin fray you could still have river run later they can rebuild it it'll be fine they can rebuild everything but uh i don't know if you lose all your armies i'm gonna say an asshole thing here your friend was four or five she was gonna get new teeth anyway i mean that's not how those work though it gives

damage to like the um oh really yeah you like they got knocked out with force so like you'd have issues when they grew back and all that yeah so again see like emin frey would have issues when river run grew back because you'd have all of these issues that are deep rooted with these lords that want to murder his ass yes which understandably so yeah emon Frey is a murderable guy. So Eamon then shoves the decree that is signed by Tommen into Jaime's face. And he's like, I'm the lawful lord of Riverrun. And then Janna snaps it and I'm like, put that away. It's nothing but a paper shield, basically, as long as like Brynden Tully's still alive and all the, and like the other Tullys too.

And then we have this line here. The other Tullys too. And then we have this line here. Though she had been a Frey for 50 years, Lady Jenna remained very much a Lannister. Quite a lot of Lannister. And apparently Lannister women do not think much of paper shields, as we learn. And that is exactly what this is, right? This river run is a paper shield for Eamon.

Eamon goes on. He tells Jaime Tywin had faith in him, and that he means to be firm and fair with his new vassals, especially the ones that hadn't shown their full support to join the Frey Lannister regime. The Malisters, Vances, Pipers, Brackens, Blackwoods, which we know Brackens and Blackwoods are warring with each other, and we will get

to that in a few chapters. He says his father will need to obey him as well. He is the lord of the crossing but i am the lord of the river run a son has a duty to obey his father true but a bannerman must obey his overlord jamie priority right this is like the most back at like this this right here is just like no one give this man river run okay jamie thinks for fuck's sakes and he's like emin you're not the paramount here little finger is the lord paramount to the trident named by my father and emin's like ah but but and jamie's like no if you're upset go take your concerns to cersei

and see what she says and jenna of course snorts and she's like go wait in the van emin go outside with the kids yeah and you get a glimpse of like what power means and looks like here right because emin frey is clearly chasing it a lot of the freys are let's be real and he so he's like coming down trying to chase it to river and he's like trying to claim his castle even though he can't even get into it whereas little finger probably he probably could just go to Harrenhal if he wanted, but he for obvious reasons does not want to because it's probably cursed. But Littlefinger knows

what power is. He knows it's not the castle, it's the title. And being recognized as Lord Paramount. Eamon Frey has confused the actual castle, the actual building, with the real power. We also have this line, then,

which, you know, there's a relatable first sentence. It was hard not to feel contemptuous of Emon Frey. He had arrived at Casterly Rock in his 14th year to wed a lioness half his age. Tyrion used to say that Lord Tywin had given him a nervous belly for a wedding gift. Jenna has played her part as well. Jaime remembered many a feast where Eamon sat poking at his food sullenly whilst his wife made ribald jests. With whatever household knight had been seated to her left, their conversations punctuated by loud bursts of laughter.

She gave Frey four sons, to be sure. At least she says they are his. No one in Casterly Rock had the courage to suggest otherwise, least of all Sir Eamon. No sooner was he gone than his lady wife rolled her eyes. Whoa. I love this so much and also I do want to say like yes this is the rumor mill like oh some of them might not be Jenna's but to play devil's advocate could some of it be Jamie projecting

since you know not all of Robert's kids are his aka all the three that are supposed to be his he's been doing that a lot right last chapter that he kept being like dude like amy's kids aren't gonna be yours if you don't do anything and lance is like great love it in and jamie's like doing that here and i mean seriously does that too right with marjorie she's all like

maybe she and her brother are fucking they've just these twins just really like projecting onto people. A bit. So once Eamon is gone, Jenna turns to Jaime, wondering what the fuck Tywin was thinking while naming Eamon Lord of Riverrun. Jaime responds his father was probably thinking of your sons. She hopes so and says Eamon would be a horrible lord, but Theon would be better if he listens to his mother and not his father. Jaime pours some wine for her, the Lannister way, truly, and asks why she's here. We get some more family drama. It turns out that granting Derry to Lancel and Amy was actually the worst decision, as we've already realized, but it turns out there are other reasons for that, too. Like, Cleos was married to one of the pureblood dairy daughters,

Jane, who is Maria's sister, and Amy is only half dairy. Jamie reminds her that Jane is a younger sister and that Tian will get Riverrun a better prize than dairy. Jenna calls it a poisoned prize.

Has Tully's male line still run strong and dairy's line is female. Her grandsons will never be secure if the Tully's male line still run strong and Derry's line is female? Her grandsons will never be secure if the Tully heirs are still alive. You know, it's really funny because there's also like Bran and Rickon and

Sansa and Arya and Robert Arryn. It might be some foreshadowing, right? Because the Tully line has Edmure, Edmure's kid, Brynden, then revert to Bran if alive, Rickon as a last call, you have Sansa

and Arya after Robert Aaron, and after that it'd likely revert to Wendt territory if they're actually still alive, but it could be a little foreshadowing with the whole the strong female dairy line coming into play um with lancel leaving it leaves dairy up in the air dairy up in the air dairy air uh you can call it and what's gonna happen to dairy are the females gonna take it back what's gonna happen

with river run what's gonna happen with the North? Hmm. Yeah. If only there was a female in succession. If only. One who very much looks like a Tully, even. Hmm. Actually, all of them look like Tullys. Yeah, right. Jamie begins to propose a match if Rosalind has a daughter with Tian, but a boy

is just as likely, Gemma says. True. And if Brendan Tully survives the siege, he may take Riverrun for himself, or even for Robert Arryn, Gemma says. True. And if Brendan totally survives the siege, he may take Riverrun for himself, or even for Robert Arryn, as you were pointing out. Jamie asks, you know, why the Lord of the Eyrie would want Riverrun as well, and Jenna tells him, because

men are fucking greedy, okay? Tywin should have given Riverrun to Kevin and Derry to Eamon, and if Tywin had thought to ask her, she would have said as much, but tywin only spoke to kevin and kevin wanted the safer seat for his son and she's like i can't blame him for that though jamie explains that lancel's throwing that decision out of the gate though and renouncing wife and lands and urges her to write cersei and make her case if she still wants dairy and jenna's

like you know whatever it's too late for that and she waxes on what won't be for a moment. Yeah, she's like, well, listen, we should have seen the Lancel shit coming, but it's honestly not that bad. And we actually get the line that goes, I suppose we should have seen this coming from afar. A life protecting the High Septon is not so different from a life protecting the king, after all. Kevin will be Roth, I fear, as Roth as Tywin was when you got it in your head to take the white. She says Kevin still has his son Martin as an heir, and he could marry him to gatehouse Amy and Lancel's place, seven save us all. We don't really know a ton about Martin,

but it does feel kind of like it compares to airian in a way as the spare, quote unquote. And it also kind of feels like a hard comparison against Jenna's uncle, Tian, who we'll talk about a little towards the end. I like that Jenna is the type of character, though, that's not fretting over this lifelong decision Jamie made ages ago, unlike every other person that we meet in Jamie's plot. And the same with Lancel. This is kind of the first sane motherfucker we get in jamie's plot and the same with lancel this is kind of the first

sane motherfucker we get in the story who's like listen jamie you became a cop and it turned out okay for you don't and she says you're okay there's another kid we'll live not a big deal like if everyone could have this much i don't know just like chill aura going on about the whole Lancel shit and about the whole Jaime shit, we'd be good. We'd be good. That's true. And I mean, I like that she points out that Lancel, she's like, I don't know, it's just like the same shit you did, which goes back to the thing's last chapter where Lancel's

like, I wanted to be like you. Jaime does not see how this is like him at all, as we can see by how he's reacting. But yeah, you're right. They're like, I don't know, there's a bunch of us landisters still good for them but part of me suddenly realizing is it pronounced tyan like lion but we'll come back to that one day oh i didn't think about this episode we'll come back to it later if we have to say his name uh we're gonna move on just as they move on to the warrior's sons. Jenna wonders why

in seven hells Circe armed them again. And Jaime's like, I'm sure she had reasons. And Jenna's like, what? What fucking reasons would she have? They're all bullshit and gives us a history lesson on the swords and the stars. Who would even trouble

the Targs? Which, as we all know, Jaime and cersei didn't remember uh it's cold out you guys don't fucking know this uh agan tread carefully so that the faith wouldn't oppose him when he died the faith were cornerstones of course of many of the rebellions against aenys and maegor uh king maegor put a bounty them, a dragon for the head of any unrepentant warrior's son, and a silver for the scalp of a poor fellow. Thousands of people died, and then Jaehaerys was eventually raised to the throne after Magor's death.

And he's like, you know what? We're going to disband this, and everyone who puts their swords down gets a pardon. And Jaime's like, oh, yeah. Yep, I definitely just threw all that out in my pretty little head, just as sarah did jenna says yep i know she asks if tywin was truly smiling though on his funeral beer and jamie explains that no no his face was just drying yeah she's really disappointed of

course men say that tywin never smiled but he smiled when he wedged her mother. And when Aerys made him a hand. When Tarbeck Hall came crashing down on Lady Ellen, that scheming bitch. Tig claimed he smiled then. And he smiled at your birth, Jaime. I saw that with mine own eyes. You and Cersei, pink and perfect as a leg is two peas in a pod. Well, except between the legs.

What lungs you had. Heroes roar! Jamie drank. Next you'll be telling me how much he liked to laugh. No. Tywin mistrusted laughter. He heard too many people laughing at your grandsire. So...

Tywin also has trauma. Yeah, some trauma. Poor Jenna. Someone give jenna a hug too she got a hug yeah she did she got one that's good enough this reminds me of a couple moments when we think about mistrusting laughter and comparing cersei and tywin and cersei trying to be tywin of course the opening lines of cersei in a feastast for Crows 1 has her sitting on the Iron Throne, and later Tyrion appears, as if from nowhere, pointing at her and howling with laughter. The lords and ladies began to chuckle too, hiding their smiles behind their hands. Only then did the queen realize she was naked.

And in Cersei 5, we get something very close to this. It pleases your grace to make a jest, I see. When I make a jest, I smile. Do you see me smiling? Do you hear laughter? I assure you, when I make a jest, men laugh. Of course, another bit of laughter punctuating Circe and Jaime's plots under Tywin in Circe 5, we will talk about when we talk about Jenna's betrothal in a bit here,

where Cersei's laughter and happiness at marrying Rhaegar dies as well. Oh. Interesting. Mm-hmm. I mean, like, all of these are very much I do think it's undersold that, yes, Cersei and Tywin are quite similar,

just not in the ways that Cersei thinks. But, yeah yeah the moment that all smiles died Jenna says that the siege wouldn't have amused him and asks how Jaime means to make an end of it and Jaime says I'm gonna make Brendan Tully an offer on good terms and Jenna's like

good terms require trust Jaime and Lannisters we don't really have a great record of that, especially you, because you killed your king. Yeah, and this juxtaposed against Cersei's mindset literally just pages before this is everything. She's currently thinking to herself, Robert should have smashed the ironborn to pieces and made a new island of their skulls, Obviously, Robert quit giving a fuck after a while, as we know. But here Jaime is, trying to do the righteous thing like Robert, offering generous terms in order to subdue the bloodshed coming from the siege,

and to keep filling those vows. I just think it's really interesting that Cersei in the last chapter is like, maybe Loras will die, lol. And here's Jaime somehow trying to do the right thing. Yeah, it is very, as you said, Robert-like and it's something that Tywin said people should do and I never

saw Tywin do that. You know, like lifting, he's like, yeah, Robert was really good at lifting do that you know like lifting he's like yeah robert was really good at lifting his enemies off their knees and it's like it's interesting that you would compliment that tywin um but yeah definitely and jamie responds to jenna scorn saying that you know what fine fine i'll kill the blackfish if he doesn't yield which he apparently says actually with a lot more uh a lot gruffer than he intends to, probably because it sounds awkward trying to be like yeah, I'm going to kill my childhood hero

if he doesn't yield. But he hasn't really internalized that yet. Jenna calls him out on that as well. She's like, empty threats aren't going to scare the Blackfish. He's been doing that for like, what, weeks now? So Jamie's like, alright, so what's your advice? And she gives it to him straight. You should probably kill ed and you're totally to be taken seriously jamie's like not about that

answer as we know jenna's like that's fine i know my place unlike your sister which i love your sister she asks if cersei really burnt the tower of the Hand and that she would have done better to actually burn her own hand. And in my mind, I'm like, whoa, red alert. That's some Ares shit, Jenna. Please do not say that. Like, that is some shit she would get off on. What is that? Cersei might be like, that's an idea.

Yeah, she's just spitballing. She's brainstorming. I get it. Yeah, we're all brainstorming here right now. She starts to review Cersei's crew, and she starts shit-talking them. She's like, Giles Rosby? Fuck him. Orin Meriwether? Fuck him, too. And then she's like, oh, small council?

Oraine Waters? Some bastard. And there's a kettle on the Kingsguard? She doesn't even know their last name. She's like, some kettle. Some kettle. She doesn't bother to learn them at all. I don't either she tops them off with the faith crawling around King's Landing and she's like man

Kevin should have been the hand yeah I mean everyone agrees Cersei technically also agrees but she didn't want to meet his terms it is pretty great though that we get Jenna's perspective on this right after Cersei's chapter where she's just like continuing to do crazy shit and she's all like what

is happening Jamie says he refused the office and Jenna responds like didn't he say why and he's like no he wouldn't say why looks off two side Jenna says that Kevin

would never turn from duty and that something must be awry and Jamie's like yeah internally he thinks he remembers when Circe goes he knows Circe had said he knows about us which isn't the only reason he left

he really left he told Circe his terms and Circe was not up front about them which was was, you know, typical Cersei stuff. Jaime offers that, you know, Kevin's just tired, and Jaina finds this somewhat adequate, saying, you know, he has every right

to be after standing in Tywin's shadow for so long, and it was really hard for my brothers. And Tyget tried to be his own man, but became angry. Jirion liked to make Japes to mock the game instead of lose the game. Can't lose

if you don't play, but also you miss 100%. Yeah, you miss 100% of the shots you don't take, Jirion, just saying. But Kevin was different. He knew how things stood, so he took position as Tywin's right-hand man. Jaime asks, so what did you do in Tywin's shadow?

And Jemma says, it was not a game for girls for her father's precious princess. She was also Tywin's precious princess until she disappointed him too. And turns out Tywin doesn't like being disappointed. And I mean, so we find out, turns out Tywin's siblings basically felt the same way about him as his kids did. Great. He's doing amazing. Wow. Dad of the year.

Sibling of the year. Doing great. Truly, truly. Big brother award. Yeah. She tells Jaime to do what Tywin would have done. And Jaime suddenly hears himself asking if she had loved him. Let me get this passage.

hears himself asking if she had loved him. Let me get this passage. I was seven when Walder Frey persuaded my lord father to give my hand to Em. His second son, not even his heir. Father was himself a third-born son, and younger children craved the approval of their elders. Frey sensed that weakness in him, and father agreed for no better reason than to please him. My betrothal was announced at a feast with half the western attendants. Ellen Tarbeg laughed, and the red lion went angry from the hall. The rest sat on their tongues. Only Tywin dared speak against the match. A boy of ten. Father turned white as mare's milk, and Walder Frey was quivering. She smiled. How could I not love him after that? That's not to say I approved of all he did or

much enjoyed the company of the man he became, but every little girl needs a big brother to protect her. Tywin was big, even when he was little. She gave a sigh. Who will protect us now? Jaime kissed her cheek. He left a son. Aye, he did. That's what I fear the most in truth. That was a queer remark. Why should you fear? Jaime, she said, tugging on his ear. Sweetling, I have known you since you were a babe at Jolana's breast. You smile like Jarrion, and you fight like Tig, and there's some Kevin in you. Else you would not wear that cloak. But Tyrion is Tywin's son, not you.

I said so once to your father's face, and he would not speak to me for half a year. Men are such thundering great fools. Even the sword can come along once in a thousand years. Yeah, it's been a minute, right guys? It's been a minute. It has been a minute. You all like that? You all like that? Uh-huh. We haven't passaged in a minute, right guys? It's been a minute. It has been a minute. You all like that? You all like that?

We haven't passed it in a while, you know? We haven't been pass- Passaging it? Passionate? We've just passed it- We've just been passing it along. Oh my god. Passing it by.

Passing it off. I don't know. Whatever. I think this passage is such like- When you think of Jaime's arc in A Feast for Crows, this passage has to come to mind, right? There's so many little bombs dropped in here. And I think breaking down Jena's betrothal politically is super important because it's such a slap in the face to the Rains.

If we go back in history, Roger Raine, the red line of Castamere's sister, Ellen Raine, is betrothed to Tywald Lannister. Tywald is the eldest son of rohan weber from the prequels right the duncan egg books drunken egg and gerald lannister twin of tion lannister tyon lannister tywald dies during the peak uprising in 233 ac in his dying breath he asks his brother tyon to take care of ell of Elin Reign. Tyon squired for Prince Egg Five during the uprising, and he marries her in a double wedding with his little brother, Tytos, who marries Jane Marbrand. Tyon dies in the Blackfyre Rebellion and leaves Tytos as the heir to Lannister, and Elin is a widow. Elin then decides to claim she's been knocked up to hold on to power but her tummy eventually

shows them the truth as it does most of the reins are sent back to castamere but jaharis and alice and's widow's law that was enacted in 52 ac still stood as i like to call it the sense and sensibility law the dashwood law blah blah blah ellen must be treated in the same manner as she was before her widowhood right as far as gold her lifestyle has to be kept up etc during this time of her using the widow's law to her advantage she begins to lose influence as people come to love jane marbrand as the new lady lion lord toad the court jester called it the war of the wombs as jane and ellen's womb seemed to be an utter competition to shove out kids with jane winning in the end but also kind of losing because she dies during the 240s she makes one last jump for power she tries to bed

titus lannister is refused gerald within fortnight, sends her away to marry Walderon Tarbeck, who already has heirs, so she really can't sink her filthy claws into his fortune. Fast forward, Tytos becomes lord in 244 AC, Ellen remains unwelcome at the Rock, and she literally has her brothers requesting loans from the Lannisters to funnel her money. Tytos is so stupid and lets this fly, right? He's like totally just unabashedly dumb about it. He's like, okay. House Reign and Tarbeck rise back to power

because Elin helps them rebuild with all the Lannister gold. In 261 AC, all of this comes to a head and Tywin demands the loans to be repaid as the Lord. They refuse. They take their own hostages like stafford and a couple other people we know and they start a revolt against the lannisters well we know what happens after that right so knowing all of this as the background and since the lannisters had not followed through on the reign lannister union titus betrrothing Jena in front of an entire hall of Westerlands to a Riverlander?

A Frey, no less, is a huge smack in the face. Very embarrassing to Jena. Walder Frey knew Tytos was a weak bitch. Use that to the advantage. Jena was their only daughter. That's a huge bargaining chip. All the lords and CK2 players

that are listening probably know that you don't give your bargaining pussy away. That's what you can marry into a more royal house because it doesn't matter. If your daughter gets married to a royal, there's no way they're going to take your line. They're busy, right? Like, you save that. You save that pussy for the pedestal. Eamon is eighth in line to the secession.

A bit farther on when he was born, too. The Freys can't offer anything to the Lannisters other than a fuck you to the succession. A bit farther on when he was born, too. The phrase can't offer anything to the Lannisters other than a fuck you to the other river lords. So immediately after this, Tytos backpedals, and he sends Kevin to serve in Castamere as a page for the Red Lion, and then as a squire later on. And then he sends Tywin to serve as cupbearer in Aegon's court in King's Landing to keep him busy and away from home drama. So now that we've done all this, it brings up another betrothal, recently talked about in Cersei V, that Jena was also there for. The prince is going to be my husband, she had thought, giddy with excitement, and when the

old king dies, I'll be the queen. Her aunt had confided that truth to her before the tourney you must be especially beautiful lady jenna told her fussing with her dress for the final feast she'll be announced you and prince rhaegar are betrothed and later on in the passage we get her laughter died at tourney's end there have been no final, no toast to celebrate her betrothal to Prince Rhaegar, only cold silences and chilly looks between the king and her father. Later, when Aerys and his son and all the gallant knights departed for King's Landing, the girl had gone to her aunt in tears, not understanding. Your father proposed the match, Lady Jena told her, but Aerys refused to hear of it. proposed the match lady jenna told her but aries refused to hear of it you're my most able servant tywin the king said but a man does not marry his heir to his servant's daughter dry those tears little one have you ever seen a lion weep your father will find another man for you a better man

than rhaegar damn history with chloe it really it does come full circle, right? Like, as to all that, and in a way, kind of, I don't know if it's karmic, right? I'm realizing now that at the end, though, the line there with Circe, it reminds me a little of... The turn your hair at all? Ned Stark. Oh, I was thinking Ned Stark telling Sansa, I'm gonna find you someone better than the Crown Prince. Oh. And see, I was thinking uh the moment all the smiles died also that and then what you were saying earlier about how much tywin hated laughter so

i mean it comes there too right like he hates laughter and he's pretty mad for obvious reasons yeah he's been working towards this and aries was a huge asshole so not wrong yeah it is really interesting to see how all that comes to roost um and paints us like this picture of tywin and i mean he's quite fearsome right But as you said, like, and in that passage you read aloud, there's a reason that his siblings still, like, kind of looked up to him for all this. They felt that he was their big brother and protected him. But I guess, you know, who protects Tywin's kids from Tywin, right? And I think that's a big part of the second half of that passage.

So I'm not a the lannister twins are secret targaryens uh believer i am however a tyrian targaryen agnostic i think that the world of ice and fire timeline uh that it gave us did quite a bit to in my opinion squash the former whereas i think leaves the latter open and i i feel like there's something to be said like I feel like if George wanted that open he would have done something with the timeline to make that more likely right

it just seems like an Occam's razor if he really wanted it you wouldn't need to have to speculate oh maybe something happened in those three years right between when Joanna was sent away and Ares uh was still in King's Landing but anyways and the birth of the twins so anyways um I do think that there's something to be said of this and like the things that happen in Jon's storyline of like you know who is Jon Snow's

father and I don't mean like who contributed semen to make john snow i mean like who was john snow's actual daddy like the one who raised him and whose footsteps he ends up really following in whose values he grows up with and i think that's that's absolutely ned stark right jenna is saying that this is the case for tyrian not regarding bastardy or bloodlines, but who amongst all of you Lannister children is truly following in the steps of Tywin Lannister? Cersei thinks it's her, just like

in the wrong ways, and that's why Jena's so afraid then of Tyrion. She's painting a picture of the fear and the coldness in the distance that the previous generations felt from their eldest brother. Tyrion yearns for love, as Tytos

did, as Jenna points out, as the third child, yearned for approval. But not the third son. Tytos was a third son. She's like, what the fuck? Did you actually ask me if we loved Tytos? She's like, yeah. Who cares? Yes, we did. He stood up for us, but there's that side that side i'm gonna quickly make a side note of like jenna says that a sister

needs an older brother to protect her and it's i think really sad that a lot of the examples that we see in this series song of ice and fire don't do that right like the series didn't protect an aries fully and ends up abusing her he's the the one who hurts her. Robb Stark died too soon to save his sisters and in fact doesn't trade to try and secure their safety. But yet they all still draw strength from his memory. And Jaime, he's not the eldest, but he does protect Cersei for many years and I think that's part of what she hates

is she starts to feel like he has stopped playing that role for her. But anyway, back on track about who's tywin's kids and who's tywin's true son right or whatever jenna knows what kind of moves tywin would have made and then emin calls tyrian killing tywin monstrous and jenna doesn't dispute that but for an action like that for jenna to say that tyrian is tywin's son right that's telling us like who they are and when she accepts like yeah okay all right tyrian tyrian killed his dad and that's what she thinks maybe being asked you know when she talks about what the duty is of a landowner and what's asked of them right And in previous chapters, we've discussed how

a lot of Jaime's clothing choices display the struggle of who he is, whether he's a Lannister or a Kingsguard. And I think it is quite noteworthy that in the earlier chapters, we get one facet of what is being a Lannister with Cersei. Then in the last chapter, the previous chapter, Jaime's learning a bit more about

that, and his family, such as, like, Kevin and Lancel. And now, again, you know, he's making this tour of his Lannister down by talking to other Lannisters. Now he's talking to Davin and Gemma. And throughout all this, we keep getting more perspectives on what it does

mean to be part of this family, and as Jaime cycles through and weighs in sides, like, he's just kind of like, is this it does mean to be part of this family and as Jamie cycles through and weighs inside, he's just kind of like, is this what I want to be? Yeah, that's the big thing. I mean, he's getting the truth of who Tywin was from the people that lived with him even before he lived with him.

Yeah. It is interesting. He's going through something now in his 30s that a couple of the other characters are going through, right? At a much younger age, in a different way, right? Like Daenerys can only get to know her father, her parents through stories, because they died when she was a baby. And as we're going to see, like, I think a lot of the Stark kids are going to learn different things about their parents prior. And we see it with a bunch of the other characters, right? Hell, we already see it with Arya in A Storm of Swords when Edric Dayne is telling her, oh, your dad bonked Ashara Dayne, dude. I mean, I don't know how to tell you, Arya. And she's like, no, he didn't.

Shut up. dude I mean I don't know how to tell you Aria and she's like no he didn't shut up and Bran learning about like all these stories and the reads being like your parents really never told you these things about the tourney at Harrenhal and they

don't tell him explicitly like what happens I guess but you know Bran's obviously probably going to see some things going on in the past too with his family like literally see it so you get that element kind of running through Jaime's storyline as he has to recontextualize

his identity in the context of his family. And it's quite a journey I think he's going to have because when he recontextualizes his place as a Lannister and his role as a Lannister and what being a Lannister means, I think the only way to deal with it is to realize it doesn't mean

fucking shit. And I think that's true for many of these families, right? Like, your family and who you are is who you decide it to be, which is part of why I'm a Tyrion Targaryen agnostic and I discussed that more in depth on an episode. Yeah, I just...

I think that, you know, you could be agnostic to things, like theories, and I discussed that more in depth on, I don't know, a long time ago when I was talking about Fire and Blood on History of Westeros, so. Yeah. No, I think Tyrion is the better choice for that theory. However, even if it's true, I don't think we'll ever know. I think it'll be something that's just up in the air that George put out there for us to question because this passage right here is meant to make us question it. It's meant to give us kind of this false information and make us go, wait, what? What do you mean by that, Jenna? Because obviously, Jenna wouldn't drop some bomb of Tyrion is really the son and you're actually Ares' kid.

Like, she wouldn't just drop that walk away and we'd never hear about it. But now we're thinking about it and we're never not going to think about this passage. And that's what George did here. Yeah, and for me, I think the larger message and theme is it doesn't matter necessarily. It matters and it doesn't matter necessarily it matters and it doesn't matter the weight that you put into your last name and blood and that legacy is what you put into it yeah

and how it shapes you of course and your upbringing but you can pick and choose and that's what Jamie's trying to learn to do right now pick and choose what parts that's what Jamie's trying to learn to do right now. Pick and choose what parts of being a Lannister are worth keeping.

I guess that's, uh, that's something he's gonna have to keep exploring as he walks through the Riverlands, as he strolls through on honor and glory through the Riverlands, huh? Whichs through on honor and glory. Through the riverlands. Huh? Which one do you think is his favorite horse?

Oh honor. Honor. It's honor. Fuck glory. What's your favorite? Honor or glory? Which one do you choose? Honor.

There's way better jokes about honor. So. Well that's Jamie. Five. In A Fe feast for crows and now we have to go on go off in our lives tonight and think about that thanks eliana thanks you're welcome well thanks for listening everyone we were so excited to have you tune in today to this. This was a doozy. There's a lot here to break apart, and I'm really excited to have Don Willian to break apart Jamie Sixx in the beginning

of July. Yes, and I mean, that's going to be quite a big encounter. That's a very I think pivotal chapter, right, as he talks to his childhood hero, the Blackfish. That's big. I i mean that's his uh that's his ken doll oh my god it is war ken doll it's a superhero yeah because we don't get to see jamie interact with the other ones because they're all dead so he's got this one this one's like fuck you

Jamie all right well keep an eye out on our social media for some upcoming updates like maybe this fan art that we talked about at the top of the episode will post for all you can follow us over on twitter

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and I've been another one of your hosts we are both Chloe and Eliana she didn't say her name oh shit I didn't I'll speak for us we're soulbound now thank god thank god you're the Ty wind in my jenna goodnight everyone

nope I said what I said that was it