Girls Gone Canon Cast - ASOIAF Episode 94 - AFFC Jaime VI Featuring Don Willi

Episode Date: July 3, 2020

Jaime learns "never meet your heroes" as he verbally squares off with the Blackfish. Later, he talks to a younger fish and threatens to put an even smaller fish on a trebuchet.  This week, we're joined by Don Willi. Be sure to check out his channels and projects below: Don Willi’s Youtube - A DON OF ICE & FIRE  The Hype's Watch  AGENTS OF SHIELD COVERAGE over @DarrinJaques youtube  Also check out Tadhya, the graphic novel by Quinn of Quinn's Ideas --- Eliana's twitter: https://twitter.com/arhythmetric Eliana's reddit account: https://www.reddit.com/user/glass_table_girl Eliana's blog: https://themanyfacedblog.wordpress.com/ Chloe's twitter: https://twitter.com/liesandarbor Chloe's blog: www.liesandarborgold.com Intro by Anton Langhage

Hello and welcome to Girls Gone Canon, A Song of Ice and Fire, Episode 94, Jamie Sixx in a Feast for Crows, featuring very special guest, Don Willie. I am one of your hosts, Chloe. And I'm another one of your hosts, Eliana. But this week, there is another one of your hosts, in fact. It's not just me. We have a very special guest.

We're very excited. This week, we are joined by our good friend, Don Willie. You may know him from A Dawn of Ice and Fire or The Hypes Watch. Yeah, you might also know him from his Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D. coverage he's been doing over on Darren Jacques. Is it Darren Jacques YouTube? Is that correct? Am I making that up? Darren Jakes. Jakes, okay. I'm just trying to make things fancy, honestly.

You know, all the time. It's all good. I've got the LaCroix bubble in. Well, you know, I think his channel is officially called D's Reviews. D's Reviews. Okay. But he goes by his regular name on Twitter. Yeah.

I'll link it below. I have the Twitter. I have the YouTube channel. You have me partially swayed to finally catch up on Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. As I've told you, we were actually just waxing about it. I have not passed season two, and I know it gets better, and I know I have to go on. Yes, you must. What else have you been doing? Tell us about what's going on.

Well, you know, like many of you out here, I've been trying to duck and dodge Big Rona. So far, that's worked out for me. Other than that, not doing the YouTube videos I should be doing. Trying to reorganize the Hypes Watch so that we can get back to actually making some content. Yeah, you know, it's been a while i mean i'll be honest with you season eight kind of had kind of uh burned us out and it was way before daenerys actually set fire to king's landing uh so yeah we're you know listen we're we're cooling right now i'm looking at trying to do some new things. I'm trying to work on some animated things.

A Song of Ice and Fire related, if I possibly can. Oh, okay. Well, you know, I watched a bunch of your Fire and Blood videos after we all went and hung out at the theater in New Jersey, right? In Jersey City for Fire and Blood. That was forever ago that we were together and I watched some of those videos after and then they stopped coming so I'm really excited to see what you have

next. Yeah, well you know what? I definitely I'm going to resume that. I mean, you know because House of the Dragon is supposed to be coming sometime. Someday.

Yeah, so I figure by the time Same as Winds of Winter. So maybe by the time House of the Dragon drops, you know, there will be enough content that I've put out there that people can say, hey, you know, this guy happens to be pretty knowledgeable. I'm like, yeah, I've been

knowledgeable for a long time. He'll be sitting there like, he knows what he was talking about after all. Yeah, you know, it's like, oh, it only took you guys six years to figure it out, but hey, it's fine. Well, we will absolutely link the true Don of Ice and

Fire below in the description in the details. We'll get that playlist going. The assault of the Ahai, absolutely. Very salty, and he is here to talk about Jamie Sixx. Oh yeah, oh yeah. Spread the salt, folks, spread the salt. There's a lot to be salty about, as you said, regarding many of the things that have come out. But, here are some things that are not worth being salty about.

So we got some emails and tweets and notes, which now you are going to join us for, Don Billy. One of them comes from our friend Jason Alden, a.k.a. Kvalden, on Twitter. Says, I have a question. With the up-and-coming release of Dune coming to the cinema, will the Girls Gone Canon be tackling the Frank Herbert Dune novels? Ooh.

Okay, Jason, this is half disappointing. It means there's a chance. It doesn't mean that Eliana's going to let me. This is mom says no kind of thing going on here. What? But me, I say possibly. So mom might be worn down. No, not a full series.

We're going to leave that to some of the greats like Quinn's Ideas and a handful of other Dune podcasts I think we can link at some point. But we might do a Patreon episode or something. In the meantime, you know, I'd love to get Eliana to do an episode on the Betty Gesserit. I don't know. I think that'd be something in our alley. and legal adult and you're like yeah that's how long ago it was and there's some things that really stuck with me and other things that i would definitely have to revisit i actually thought i was going to read like books two three and four and i own them somewhere too and that never did story of my life but it's something that i'm open to discussing someday if we're talking about things that are coming to like a film sequence you know i'm just gonna say if we're talking about things that are coming to like a film sequence you know

I'm just gonna say if we're gonna make some trades and like compromises I mean granted technically Chloe's already done that by reading his direct materials but I'm gonna throw it out there foundation foundation is one of my big loves the foundation trilogy so I don't know

are you excited for the Dune the Dune cinematic adaptation? Timothy Shelby? Timothy Shelby. I'll be honest with you. I knew nothing about Dune other than the fact that Patrick

Stewart played in it. You know, that movie wasn't that bad. It could have been worse. I didn't see it it's not good but it's not bad it looks like it's got cool costumes from what i've seen the photos of one dress one single dress i'm like that's a cool dress but it's all right you might like it i know i lost all kinds of like nerd street credit with that but trust me i will earn it back dude you're watching all of like agents of shield and you've got all this other stuff so agents of shield i like there's so much that like there's just so much media yeah you know like i'm

gonna use star trek nerd so that that's that's kind of where i fall into okay i've never seen star trek so that's that's my great nerd sin but again everyone just check out like quinn's channel i recommended quinn's channel to my therapist and my therapist loves it i was like that guy's really good these are really good videos shout out to quinn look he's doing he's doing major that guy. Dude, his graphic novel just hit $35,000 for backers. I'm so proud. That's awesome. He deserves it.

Yeah, you know what? I'm going to actually make sure to buy one of the deluxe things when I get paid, when I'm not so broke. Yeah, I went for the signed hardcover, I want to say. I'd have to look at my receipt. Same. I couldn't decide. There are so many really cool

perks. We'll leave a link for that in our description as well. You guys are going to have a good reading plethora to go through after this for sure. With all the things that we're like, just check this thing out. Maybe we'll cover it, maybe we won't. I don't know. But just in case, be prepared. So we did

get another tweet from our friend Katty, at Katty underscore Wampus on Twitter, who said, I'm re- Good name. I know it is a good name. I'm re-listening to your edited episodes. Dad, no.

And you mentioned it was interesting that when he's thinking of the right thing to do, he thinks of John Aaron. I thought about him naming his kids after his living foster fam before his dead birth fam. Thoughts? It's funny, like, the more I think about the Starks, the more I'm like, they deserve to lose. And I know, that's an unpopular

opinion, but I mean, Ned, so he named John after John Aaron, who honorable like, alright, so he named Jon after Jon Arryn, who's an honorable man. But he named his true-born Robb after somebody he knew was, you know, a whoremonger. I mean, come on, man. He named Rob after Robert Baratheon, like the dude who basically got jealous that Ned's sister shacked up with somebody else and decided to go and kill him. That's kind of what it boils down to, you know. You know, the rest of the kids, they already have their own names or whatever, but you get the point that I'm going with here.

Yeah, and I wonder if it's like Ned felt like he felt pressured to name Rob after Robert, right? Ned had this front that he had to come home with. And it was almost like John was a freebie, right? Like he had to act as if John is his kid that he got in the war. And he's like, all right, I'll name it after my foster dad. So I guess that's like, that's an appropriate level name right like he's putting all the lessons he learned into that name but like to name his firstborn i guess like he's expected to give it a grand name right and i don't know ned obviously also wasn't thinking right also did ned name him or did cadillan name

him and name him for a great king you know what i mean we don't know that do we so we actually do we have a so spake martin from february 28 2002 one of the questions someone asked was since all of their mothers died who gave john snow denarius and tyrian lannister their names and and George responds with mothers can name a child before birth or during or even after even while they are dying Dany was most like named by her mother Tyrion by his father Jon by Ned

and I think that wording is quite intentional of course in terms of what we know about Jon's parentage right and how Dany's called out as being named by her mother and Tyrion by his father but for Ned and Jon it's interesting, it's all those things that she said

it's kind of poignant in a way because Jon was like a father to Ned even though there was no blood between them there's some blood between Jon Snow and Ned Stark. But he's sort of taking on that role, and I think there's a poetry there. But I think there's also kind of like a meta reason, right? Because then you get this like cool thing of like,

Jon Snow, who's his parents? Who is he? It's kind of like Jon Doe. Oh my god. I'm not joking. I'm being very serious. It is. No, it is no it is though but my my one qualm though is like rob i think maybe cadeline might have named him because she thought she was supposed to name him that because that's ned's bff that's all she knows about the fucking foreign stranger guy to her you know like she doesn't know him so yeah the king yeah that's

the thing like she just banged him once and she had rob before ned came home so i would imagine she might have named him yeah she probably was like ned i named him rob after robert aren't you so pleased with me and he's like yeah whatever lady oh no i mean if anything if you want to honor anyone wouldn't't it have been, like, either Bran or Rickard? Right, those came later. I can see why she wouldn't name her firstborn son Bran after Brandon, after, like, hey, Ned, remember that guy I was supposed to marry that wasn't you? Remember that hot guy? Okay, well, at least Rickard.

And that came later, too. I guess it was a similar wound, you know, in a way. Like, they did just burn alive, die alive, etc., whatever. They could just die, yeah. I don't know. I guess, like, she probably really thought she was just doing the right thing. Well, and I guess there's a parallel there with Liana, whatever she did name John, right? Because she named John. Like, you can say whatever you want, whether it's Aegon, Aemon,

Jaehaerys, but Lyanna did name him. Lyanna might have named him with suggestions, but she chose the name as she was dying. So, I don't know. Maybe that's a parallel with Catelyn. Her firstborn, she chose the name. She thought it was a great plan.

I don't know. I think also, again, coming back to the meta, then you end up with some really great comparisons. And I think contrast between how Robb Stark is as an older brother, right, and the way that his siblings see him versus the very complex relationship that Robert Baratheon has with his brothers. Even though they share a name and they're namesakes, right? Everyone's like, oh, my God, I love Robb. I want to be just like Rob. He was the greatest older brother ever and he loved us. And Robert Baratheon's brother's like, I kind of want to be like Robert, but also why didn't he show me any affection?

Yeah, that's true. I mean, but think about it. If you had Stannis as a younger brother, would you really show him any affection? No, absolutely not. That kid would have been orphaned. I'm sorry, Stannis fans, but also not sorry. You know what podcast you've tuned into.

You know what you're here for. You know, Renly seems like he might have been cool because he kind of tried to emulate Robert a little bit with his style of dress, but he even made it a little bit more flamboyant and everybody kept on saying, oh, he looks like he looks like a young Robert, you know? kind of discontentious thing where it's like stannis wanted the approval that robert got and he felt like robert never really earned it it's just kind of like robert's legend was always

bigger than robert actually was like there's the there's a quote about him that stannis says it's like yeah robert would have came down and swung his warhammer and like tore the whole castle down or something like that or yeah like whatever it is and he is just talking about how big robert's legend was and how stan is just wanted to get out of the shadow of like no look i've done all this great stuff how come come I don't get recognized? And only Robert gets recognized. And then they skip over me and they go to Renly. And they're like, oh, Renly's like a young Robert, except he's even more charming.

And it's like, god damn it. Yeah. And also, he didn't have to deal with Renly as much in some ways. But I also wonder, as someone who has no younger siblings, I've heard that's annoying, right? To have a younger sibling who tries to copy everything you do I don't know if that's true or not you know we have a different question from our friend and patreon dibbles and bits also a good name aka Scott he uh he wrote us this email after a couple glasses of bourbon which I commend Eliana especially

commends he sobered up and still sent it. Good for him. Yeah, I approve of it. You know, I feel like a lot of people start through emails to us and they're like, so I was drunk when I wrote this and then I woke up and decided to send it anyway. And I'm really glad that that's us. Like that's the podcast you're saying that to. We will always accept your drunk and sober revisions every time. So Scott said,

Feast is one of my favorites because I feel like it's about building tension than anything else. And I think it applies to Jamie throughout the Riverlands. You all mentioned Catelyn hanging over Jamie 5 and continuing on in Jamie 6. If Feast and Dance were combined,

Jamie's arc would start with the death of Tywin and follow with the gallows march to Lady Stoneheart. He's confronted by his last or past sins, Harrenhal, Derry, Riverrun, and we see him interact with one of his few maternal figures, Jenna, and test himself against Illyn Payne, his own Stoneheart, in some ways, different motivations, every night. Illyn carries orders, Stoneheart's path is vengeance, a little different, but I see the parallel. Illyn carries orders, Stoneheart's path is vengeance. A little different, but I see the parallel.

How do you feel Jaime's chapters will inform what happens to him if and when he stands before Stoneheart? If a storm of swords was Jaime finding goodness, Beast is testing that goodness and asking if it's enough to undo his sinister sins. And then we also have Dibbles and Bits going on a bit saying, P.S. below is my tipsy ramblings on Lady Stoneheart but I'm not sure if it's relevant to Jamie's chapters yet, but Kat and Lady Stoneheart are two of my favorite characters

I think it's interesting that Dibbles and Bits has made that distinction and I like to remind myself when I'm reading Jamie and Brienne in A Feast for Crows that there's a supernatural figure lurking ominously in the woods I feel a lot of the fandom still thinks of Lady Stoneheart in terms of a firebite or velour, but she is literally

a banshee and bears physical characteristics of different versions of the spirit on the British Isles. Most are described as having red, weeping eyes, dressing in grey, and a few are characterized as having red hair. In particular, Lady Stoneheart seems to be based on the cognac,

which is spelled really differently, but thank you for including the pronunciation notes, dibbles and bits. It's spelled C-A-O-I-N-E-A-G. Or Weeper. That's way easier to read. read a banshee in scottish folklore who kings and whales pretend the death of her clan or family who is often found by a body of water such as a glen stream or river in fact cognac were said to have been heard prior to the massacre of glencoe one of george r martin's inspirations for the red wedding oh that's right yeah i forgot about that. That's really interesting. I really like how Dibbles and Bits outlined that Storm is Jamie finding his goodness, Feast is testing that

goodness and asking, what is the answer to that, right? Especially with some with this banshee hanging over everything. I mean, Stoneheart is downright terrifying. He's absolutely right that we're not a lot of people don't think about Stoneheart in those terrifying terms. They just think like kind of undead Catelyn, but she's described as a different woman every time we meet her in this text. So I'm interested to see for the Winds of Winter. I wonder if the Winds of Winter will be Jaime regressing a little bit. And I know know I'm gonna get things thrown at me by many a crowd on the internet for saying that but I think that he's probably gonna be pretty downtrodden if he survives Lady Stoneheart things are gonna be pretty shitty he does you know where

we leave him is him kind of going off to meet his new destiny what What's going to happen? We don't know. Alright so. You know when it comes to this whole thing. With the Jamie arc. Jamie is kind of the. I guess classic. Frat boy. That you know he. Obtained a high government position. And not that he.

Didn't deserve it. Not that he didn't deserve it. But he has it. And he wields his power pretty sparingly, but when he does wield his power, it is kind of vicious. thing in their mind that he is a dishonorable rich spoiled brat who has a position that he really shouldn't have because a better man got forced out and now he's you know playing cleanup and all of the sins of not only himself but his family are coming back to haunt him because the sins of not only himself but his family are coming back to haunt him because he's getting blamed for stuff that he had nothing to do with but it's just like yeah well you know you're still in cahoots with all this and even if you didn't do it you would have been involved if you had the chance so he is testing his own personal morality because he's like, hey, he's trying to think of himself as a better man.

And he's not sure whether or not he actually is the better person that he would like to think of himself as. So when he's doing all these different acts and he's talking to different people throughout feast especially when he gets to the whole gallows march it's one of those things where he's like look i don't necessarily want to be here but i do understand that there's still a reputation that has to be maintained which is why like in this particular chapter that we're going to be discussing there's a lot of like are you really going to make me say the words because it's like he doesn't want to be that guy but he's like all right fine like fine if you're going to force me to be that guy and fine i'm going to

play the part as well as i can but secretly he's like that's not what i want to do i'd rather be on the beach and dawn somewhere you know sipping on some arbor gold or something like that but here is the situation i found myself in and so i i must play a part of tywin jr almost yeah and tywin's fucked all of them up so much in the head that they need to feel that way right like because jamie is so close right here right now he could turn the ties he could say the black fish he could you know turn and he could say i i want to join you guys and get vengeance i want to you know help rebuild a better world for the kids to live in i want to make a peace treaty and but he knows that cersei is batshit uh but he knows that Cersei is batshit,

but he knows that Cersei is done before, like deep down. And he just won't admit it to himself that his family sinned and they were mostly bad. Like you have Davin and Jenna playing these balancing roles of like the Lannisters aren't all bad, but he's complicit, right? He's still working for his mob boss family. At the end of the day, he's going and breaking knees for his mob boss family, and he's trying not to break any knees.

But at the end of the day, he wore red and gold to this meeting with Brendan. You know, he chose Lannister. And I think we're going to explore that today and talk about, is he going to choose Lannister in the end? I mean, listen, he always wanted to be seen as the Golden Lion. Always. And he's disillusioned with the whole process. He's disillusioned with everything, and

the one thing that he kind of still has in his head is like, if I have nothing else, I still have the name Lannister. Like, if all else fails, people will see this red and gold and I will still get respect off

of that if nothing, if absolutely nothing else. Not a lot of respect on that name anymore, though, is there? No respect on that name. I will put none of it. I mean, well, you know what? But it's, I don't know if you guys

have ever seen the movie Bronx Tale. Yeah. But, you know, there's the classic line in there, like, it's better to be feared than not to be loved. And, you know, he, listen, at the end of the day, he'd rather be feared because fear lasts longer. And fear's what he knows agreed with all

of those things and i also really loved going back to what don really said earlier about um you know they did kind of oust barriston so that jamie could get his promotion right they fired him so that that could happen to jamie and i think that don will you talked about jamie as like a trust fund kid at one point besides being a frat boy all these things often go together as I've learned in my experience once once upon a time but

you know along with all that of course Catelyn is hanging over this story both it with the with the double entendre and not and we're gonna dig into that a lot more in this chapter. And, you know, we are going to go into our lightning round soon.

But before that, we have one last exciting announcement. It's not an email or tweet of note. You know, next week, to help us close off Jamie in A Feast for Crows, we are going to also have another guest. We are going to have another guest. We are bringing on Kristen. She's a moderator on the Asaga vice and fire facebook group uh you might know her from some

of her jamie and brianne tweets on twitter here and there sparingly especially when the bad show was on krt but yes our friend kristen will be on joining us for jv7 which is the last Jaime chapter in A Feast for Crows before we shimmy on over to A Dance with Dragons. So that's going to be something and then we're done with Jaime. Hmm. You know, until Winds of Winter comes out. Absolutely. Eventually. George

put out an update. He did. You guys read it. We don't have to tell you. We don't have to tell you that. It was a non-update. It was a non-update update. When there's something important we'll talk about it. We don't have to tell you. We don't have to tell you that. It was a non-update. It was a non-update update. When there's something important, we'll talk about it. I digress. So we're excited to have Kristen on next week. And absolutely after that, we will close out of Dance of Dragons

and you will hear our big announcement of who the next POV is. And let me tell you, it will be a fast one. Blink and you'll miss it. But I think it'll be interesting. Yes. We have dropped a few hints and patrons know who the next POV is. tell you it will be a fast one blink and you'll miss it but uh i think it'll be interesting yes we have dropped a few hints and patrons know who the next pov is but before that let's talk about the next povs the povs actually not next that come before this pov chapter let's jump into our lightning round yes everything we missed between jamie five and jamie six Cat of the Canals, Arya becomes no one trading her secrets and sight for the many-faced god.

Samwell 4, aboard the Cinnamon Wind, Sam and Gilly celebrate Maester Aemond in the Summer Island fashion. It sucks. Oh my god. Cersei 8, Cersei's grasp on King's Landing is ever-sli slipping in the face of a Dragonstone victory and she attempts to solidify it with further plotting and scheming surely nothing could go wrong Brienne 7 Brienne remains a true knight in the face of turmoil and biter

at the inn of the crossroads no chance no choice no chance no choice and that brings us to Jaime Six. Jaime's attempts at peace are made a mockery throughout the chapter, with his childhood war hero, and in his war council alone.

Concerned with being a lion of a different coat by the end of the chapter, Jaime shows Ednir Tully that he still has claws. You like that? I wrote it for you. And that puts us into Jaime Six in A Feast for Crows. Brendan Tully's cloak is fashioned with a jet and gold blackfish

and is dressed in steel and ring mail, waiting darkly for Jamie at the drawbridge on a chestnut courser. His face is windburnt, his hair gray, but Jamie can see the night that he once knew beneath it all. Jamie, of course, considered his dress for this meeting for a while, alternating between his gold armor and white armor, but in the end, he chose a leather jacket and a crimson cloak. I just want to say, usually most people when they're making a fashion statement only pick one of these, sometimes less is more, and both a cloak and a leather jacket don't make you more badass he needs all the badassness he can get here honestly i think he's really uh trying to be brave and i think there is something to say that he did choose the crimson cloak in the end right because we've discussed at full that jamie really wanted to make a decision between wearing

the lannister gold several times or the red and gold versus his Kingsguard white. And when he killed Aerys, it was a big debate on if he chose to wear his gold armor or his white armor, right? He chose the gold. He didn't taint the white armor. And here going to see Brynden Tully, he is not tainting his white armor or gold armor. He does not want the Kingsguard attached to this act. Yeah, he's very much trying to pick, and understandably so, he understands what this business is, and it isn't quite Kingsguard business in his eyes. And in many ways, it's kind of personal, right?

He's picking this Lannister crimson, right? But he's also picking a leather jacket. Actually, we don't know what color his leather is. Leather can come in a couple of different colors. I will call out that we got a message on Patreon from our friend Kyle who says, Hey! I just recently started listening to your podcast

after binging Nauticast and loving your features on there. I'm looking forward to hearing all of the additional Patreon content, but I do have one burning suggestion, though, that I needed to get off my chest I enjoy the fashion hour segments as we are having here however I believe a more fitting name would be

Tokartalk also a great name for a fire Daenerys mixtape that or some variation of the name anyways keep up the good work so I just wanted to call that out now that we're having a fashion hour if we should be calling it Tokar Talk or not it's a big debate we're going to have to take it

to our board and by that I mean our board who's also made up of our interns Allie and Jake the cat yeah I think the cats will have something to say about this I feel like we can't do Tokar Talk until we get to Danny which I don't know could be tomorrow could be years from now you just don't know

damn I'm not giving anyone anything Danny, which I don't know. Could be tomorrow. Could be years from now. You just don't know. Damn. I'm not giving anyone anything. They'll never know what we're doing, Danny. Tokar talk. I do like that. That's got the alliteration. It's good.

So back in the story in Jamie 6, Brendan totally greets Jamie by Kingslayer, which is not a great start, right? Jamie is going to stay calm. He thanks Brendan for coming, very polite, and the Blackfish responds asking if Jamie is here to fulfill his oath and return his nieces,

Sansa and Arya. But he doesn't see the girls, he says. Yeah, you know, I will say that Jamie just responding with Blackfish,. Yeah, you know, I will say that Jaime just responding with Blackfish, which is, you know, of course, Brynden Tully's nickname. It was kind of a smooth move, all things considered. It's all he has. Courtesy?

Courtesy of a nickname, I mean. Words, uh, what does Tyrion say about words? Someone remind me? Oh, they wind? Let them armor you, you know? Let them be your armor. one yeah that one that's true that's true i mean there's a lot of quotes about words in the story yeah here he's not letting it affect him right kingslayer he's like you know could be worse could have been worse he

could have said worse things to open this off i'm just gonna go with kingslayer good enough imagine what a kind of modern slang he might have used against him so yeah you know what uh kingslayer is uh better than he might have been called on the streets of any town usa or any town wherever at this point so yeah kingslayer is just fine sure he could open with sister fucker and jamie admits he doesn't have them. He doesn't have the Stark girls, and Brendan asks if he'd like to come back to his old solid different run then. Jamie, though, prefers Scumpy Pavilion, which Brendan comments that Catelyn, you know, also

gets to enjoy the comfort of her grave. It's not true. Jamie thinks of blabbering all of it. He didn't have a hand in cat's death the girls were already gone by the time he landed in king's landing and he sent brienne with his sword and then we have this quote here of but the blackfish was looking at him the way that eddard stark had looked at him when he found him on the iron throne but the mad king's blood upon his blade yeah there's a lot of guilt right that he's feeling right now because

he knows that he swore a vow that he has not completed and not even just this vow like we're talking kingsguard vows that he still hasn't held right and i'm not trying to be a dick to jamie but i don't know what he expected ruse bolton to do right like did did he think that ruse bolton was gonna throw a pony party for rob stark like he literally the whole chapter he's sitting there with brienne between jamie five and jamie six and storm of sword and he's realizing oh it's a game me and ruse bolton are playing for my safety and yes he was arguing for his safety he was basically uh negotiating for his safety and trying to negotiate for Brienne's with Roose. But there's a couple thoughts, like, in a way, it's similar to that debate of did

Stannis know he was killing Renly? Because did Jaime know he was killing Robb Stark by saying, you know, oh, let him know that I send my regards. I mean, he spends his dinner with Roose outlining Roose is playing a game. Brienne doesn't understand this game. I mean, he spends his dinner with Roos outlining, Roos is playing a game. Brienne doesn't understand this game. I want to play this game. And he ends the game by saying, give Rob my regards. I just don't know what he thought was going to happen. You know, like, obviously, something bad was going to happen to Robb Stark.

That's all. Nothing good. I mean, listen, nothing good indeed. But at the end of the day i mean like geez it's still it's still one of those moves where you want to be able to trust your bannerman right yeah i don't understand how rob didn't see kind of what was going on because didn't kind of screw him over prior to that anyway like at heron hall yeah it was like very passive aggressive it was like a oops teehee i mean i get it rob was trying to inspire loyalty so you can't i mean like he already had the issue with the car stocks so it

was like i got the car stock thing going on I can't go executing every general who screws up somehow. So I think that's part of the reason why he let the slip up, quote unquote, with Bruce Bolton go on. Because it's like, all right, well, I can't hit everybody for treason. Yeah. Or, you know, or stupidity. So, yeah, I guess Bruceos Bolton's gonna get a pass on this one. But unfortunately... It's like you said, you know, you want

to be able to trust your vassals. Like, the whole feudal contract is very much built on that, so it's not surprising that he'd be like, what? Roos? My Roos? But... It's too bad only us three knew that Roos was creepy. It's too bad. It's like, that man band's weird i don't trust that band at all understandably so aria stark but i don't know

i mean like yeah it's weird with the situation with jamie like obviously like he knew there was something brewing there in betrayal i'm sure no one really thought that like a big taboo like guest right was gonna be broken like that was i mean that was out there right like only tyrian kind of knew the plan as and mostly he only knew after the fact but of course jamie's presence there he knew a bit and he helped facilitate that partnership and therefore the downfall and i it comes back to like something that you said earlier don willie right during the emails and tweets and note where you're like, yeah, Jamie wasn't necessarily part of it, but he probably would have been right if he had known more. And back then, like he might have been like, yeah, this is what I have to do for my family. So. Yeah, I mean, you know, pretty much you got to think about it, right?

With the way that this whole thing is going on, he's sitting up there thinking to himself, okay, well, look, I don't have the luxury of going out and trying to battle everybody whenever I can, right? So I've got to make short work of this. Oh, Dad, you have a plan? Oh, wait, you're're gonna win the war in one night really loose bolton is there inside and the phrase wait walter fray is that a friend offended over this okay fine let it go down let it go down so you know at the end of the day yeah as hostile as the blackfish is to him he can't really expect anything else because at the end of the day

yeah Jamie would have been down with that plot he really would have yeah maybe not Jamie right this second as we know but Jamie then definitely would have said yes especially if it got him out of trouble yeah that's what he was trying to play out there

and I you know there's a part of it that that's what he was trying to play it there and i you know there's part of it that that's kind of present in all this and i think that's what's so interesting about some of the language here right like because jamie thinks himself that the blackfish is looking at him the way eddard stark had looked at him when he found him on the iron throne with the mad king's blood upon his blade but you know that sure that's pretty damning but i find that really striking that he sees that on the blackfish's face and that it reminds him of ned and i just the more we go through this reread the more that i see that this relationship that jamie has with ned is just so deep and it's it's more complex than just fear right there's a lot of other emotions that are wrapped into it such as judgment it's it's really complex jamie associates it with like also both the feeling of

guilt and of innocence at the same time of his own innocence but also guilt because he's very sure that he's done nothing wrong in some ways but he's or that he's like tried very hard to do good strive for it but on the other hand externally and in many ways he also knows right that he's failed like of course killing aries was in many ways the right call but as we see there's a lot of guilt wrapped up with those hoofs those hoof steps as we hear in the dream that he has back then with rhaegar as he thinks of like rhaegar's kids and and elia martell right and of course the odes that everyone else knows him for which is why he's called kingslayer and no one gives a shit or that like his actions led to the deaths of them whatever um and then here you have like that he didn't have the two struck

girls and so it looks again like he's failed and yes he kind of has but in a way he's also kind of trying right he has someone out there doing this work he's he's kind of working on it he's got someone on it and but Jaime's just internalized so much of Ned Stark as this like idea of both honor but also this manifestation of his own like conscience and then at the same time in a way like this manifestation of his own pride yeah and i feel like it's something that could be like i think probably written extensively about but it's really interesting the the relationship that jamie has what he projects onto ned it's definitely affected him very heavily yeah so that stood out to me when it comes to the situation with him and ed i think a

lot of that has to do with the fact that it's like well ned rebelled against the kingdom kim and robert baratheon like he's looking at them almost as if they are war criminals to a certain extent and then on top of that then had a bastard he he had a bastard how dare he judge me yeah exactly because for him like that's like one of the lowest things you can do is you you had a bastard yeah like okay because i mean that's what he's been made to believe right that his That his bastards are fucking- For him, it's nothing. They're worth nothing, even though they're kings. They're just false, you know? It's just false nothingness.

He gets nothing out of it. Sad. Comes back to that lie that Jamie says, by what right does the wolf judge the lion? Yeah, by what right? Well, Jamie poisons himself to Brendan Tully, and he's like, alright, let's try. And he's like, I don't want people to die, which is why you should hand River run over.

And Tully's like, this must be where you threatened to hang Edmure, right? He's marked for death, so you may as well just do it. And Jamie's like, in his head, he's like, fuck, rhyme and fray. He has made such a mummer show of this. It has done the opposite of weakening the blackfish jamie quips back and forth that he's here to relieve lady sybil westerling and her children out of his care and the blackfish remarks oh just like catalan's daughters that you were supposed to return again once more guilting him jamie reminds him trading an old woman and three

children for a leash lord is a bargain and they go on to discuss the vows he made to Catelyn and to Aerys, though Jaime irritably reminds him Catelyn's vows came with a sword to his throat, and thinks she also trusted Tyrion, who also deceived her, so I don't know what you expect. He says Aerys has no part of this. He asks if they will make the trade for the westerlings for Edmure, but Brynden is like, no, Edmure's not worth much. I was entrusted by my king to keep Queen Jane from the Frey noose. Jaime gives him his word that Jane has been pardoned. And of course, Brynden questions it as your word of honor

and asks if he knows what honor is. Jaime, of course, thinks one of the most iconic Feast for Crows lines, that honor is a horse it's a horse a horse yay yeah uh very iconic i mean you know i mean and just think about it right again here we have the perception that the lannisters are pretty much all the bad guys. And so even though Jaime's like, hey, look, no, no, no. I don't want people to die. Let's just, you know, let's come to some kind of agreeable terms where everybody gets to walk away from this. Save a little face.

Yeah, okay, you won't be a lord anymore after all this, but at least you won't have to die. You get to go to the wall, but come on, it's the wall. Now, here is the thing. When Jaime brings up that Jon Snow is Lord Commander at the wall, and Blackfish responds with, oh, yeah, was that also Cersei's or Tywin's doing as well yeah he's like yeah catelyn never never trusted him and he never trusted you either so yeah you know fuck that i'm not going to the wall basically yeah he even says like she was right about theon so dot dot dot like

so john snow she never trusted him i'm not doing that i don't trust that he thinks it's a lannister scheme absolutely right but the thing about like and here's the thing that i'm wondering okay caitlin never liked john basically because that's not one of her kids right you know that's kind of unfortunately when it comes to john caitlin was the wicked stepmother yeah but i'm like why like what would the blackfish have against him like would it the blackfish doesn't even know him like you know just like oh catlin didn't trust him and it was basically he's yeah he's not my kid and he's a bastard so you know screw him but like what reason would the blackfish not have to trust John?

I'm like, what has he done? So that was the thing that kind of struck me about this. That's a great question. And I think that speaks to how deeply entrenched the Tullys are when it comes to, I think, those traditional values. When it comes to like the Faith of the Seven and Southern values, right? Like Kat was so dutiful, right? They got that family duty honor thing going on and i think it granted then again the blackfish refused to marry so like he needs to shut the fuck up

but at the same time at the same time i wonder if it's like that or if he's just sort of idealizing cat's judgments after death but i kind of wonder if it's just like that tully like being really weird and conservative when it comes to bastards because i mean like hoss or tully was like you know what if we just force an abortion on my child i mean i think that's a big part of it right is the family values but also look at she was right about theon in a way obviously we know the deeper story like that's not all there was. Dion had a lot of conflicting things going on with his family. Obviously, doesn't excuse murdering some kids. But yeah, Dion had some issues to work out and it didn't go so smooth. But she was right. He

shouldn't have sent Dion. She did kind of see that coming. And I think he's trusting her opinion with Jon Snow. And not just because of that, but because look at how it looks from the public eye. We all know it's not Jon's bastard. We don't have to talk about it. We know it's basically canon that it's not. But Ned brought him home after war to this woman and just like brought him home. And for Kat, that's like the ultimate disrespect to a woman, you know, a highborn lady that has already been forced to marry, like the freaking consolation prize. No offense, Ned, but that's what she was getting. Right. She was like, I'm going to marry this dude. It's going to go great.

He's kind of hot. I mean, sex might go OK. And then Brandon's like, I'm going to go die. You know, like he's like, I'm just going down to die. So then she gets stuck with Ned. And I'm not saying that's a go or anything like I'm sure he's an okay dude. But he just wasn't really in the mood to marry either. You know, like, he just watched all his family die. So he puts this big lie off and never tells his wife about it. And she lets this resentment grow. And if you let resentment like that breed for decades, you know, or a decade and a half, I mean, you're going to be a bitch about it.

It's kind of natural. And I'm not saying that she's right for what she did. But I mean, that's all Brendan knew, right? Like he knew what Kat told him. Ned wasn't telling him things. People aren't telling the Blackfish things. He knows what Catelyn tells him. So of course he's going to think she's right.

We know it's a way more complex answer. True indeed. I mean, like I understand. But at the same point, too. I mean, think about it right he had no rights to anything it was already pre-established from when john came home it's like yeah okay he's a kid he'll treat him nice but at the end of the day he's gonna grow up with with nothing yeah and even thinking back to a game of thrones literally as soon as ned is like okay hey i'm gonna be the hand because you know catelyn was like oh you have to do this as soon as he says okay fine i'll take the position

he's like oh yeah and by the way john can't stay here he's gotta go just like like okay what what i don't get is how he's like yeah totally distrustworthy i'm like really interesting when you see someone just rise as lord commander of the night's watch i'm like doesn't that just mean that they're very competent yeah well that's where i think what don willie was just saying about um yeah about how it could be he was thinking it's a Lannister plot because I distrust everything Lannister too and we know like right now there are people on the way to the wall because of Cersei

right we get that plot in the Dance with Dragons that she's sending there to try to move them up in the Night's Watch hierarchy which jokes on them it's not really like famous celebrity lap of luxury but like she's getting them moved up fast and to displace Jon. And that's her goal because she doesn't trust him either for batshit reasons.

So you have like, well, maybe not batshit. Like he, you know, he'd probably take revenge if he could for his family. But so he definitely executed the last Lannister Toadie. Yeah. So you have like Brynden and Cersei both thinking like oh that john snow is a ploy against me uh it's kind of funny yeah i mean but you know like it's just one of those things where like when it comes to cersei no cersei is doing it strictly out of out of vanity for her it's like yeah i you know i got rid of all of the starks that i wanted to get rid of and even though

john snow is not technically a stark he's still around and he's in command of an army as he's thinking about all of the the what ifs she's like no yeah and it's like, did you not hear the whole thing about them trying to fight against the wildlings and also, you know, possible ice zombies from the north? You really think he's like, oh, yeah, why not go march south with, you know, like the smallest army possible? Like, there's barely anybody to man the wall. He's going to go down and try to kill her in king's landing yeah sometimes it's hard knowing more than them you know what i mean like being like you stupid idiots i mean but the thing about it is she's gotta be aware i mean she ignored it is her problem she completely fucking ignored it in one ear out the other i mean even tyrian ignored it

right like alicer thorne came down he theoretically had a zombie hand but you know because alicer thorne was like a huge asshole at the wall tyrian was like i'm not gonna look at that guy right now i don't want to see his face yeah and and things went awry yeah so and i think uh you know part of part of it here what we're getting is that there's that sense of irony because we know that right the Lannisters are actually trying to plot somehow for some reason that no one really knows or cares about that Jon will have his downfall at the wall thanks to a Lannister plot so there's that sort of irony but it's understandable that the Blackfish might think that Jon rising as Lord Commander of

the Night's Watch would be a Lannister plot, considering that Jaime himself has also become Lord Commander of the Kingsguard all of a sudden. Whereas Jaime, I mean, like, maybe he would have wanted it one day, but right now, he just kind of would prefer to die with a sword in hand, run red with lion

blood. He's just like, oh my god, I cannot deal with my childhood hero insulting me right now and reminds him and reminds the blackfish that you know even though like lion blood is something that you want you on your sword he's like tully blood runs just as red and that if you don't yield you know jamie's gonna have to storm river run right now and brindan says that you know hundreds of my men will die, but thousands of yours, Jamie's.

Yeah, I love the passage we got here back and forth between them. It's really, this is the Courtney Penrose versus Stannis kind of scene, right, happening right here with Jamie. I was thinking about this, talking it over. Nauticast just did this chapter with Courtney Penrose and Stannis a minute ago. So very similar. But he says, your garrison will perish to a man. And Brynden says, I know that song.

Do you sing it to the tune of the rains of Castamere? My men would sooner die on their feet fighting than on their knees behind a headsman's axe. Jaime just thinks this is not going well. He then attempts to do this peacefully, right? He's like, all right right compose myself the blackfish mistrusts though because of tywin and the breach of hospitality even though he's dead he says may the father judge him justly and then jamie thinks now there's an awful prospect because that would turn hell upside down judging tywin justly i'm sure jamie tells him he would have killed rob if

he had the chance and the Whispering would, but he's just as dead now, so does it really matter who killed him and his kingdom, too? And we, of course, get one of those very badass lines from the Blackfish. You must be blind as well as maimed, sir. Lift your eyes and you will see that the dire wolf still flies above our walls. And there's a couple things going on in this passage I wanted to highlight. First, it's very similar to Circe in just a handful of chapters ago. The queen's eyes were green ice. You had best go, sir. Lancel, Osmund, Kettleblack, and Moonboy. Are you deaf as well as maimed? You'll find the door behind you, sir. I thought that was very similar, just

the way the language was used. I thought it was really well used, George. So way to do similar language for Cersei and Jaime chapters. Something else I've been thinking about is the way that Brynden is posturing himself in this chapter. He says, well, earlier on, we know that he was given by King Rob's decree, a new title, the Warden of the Southern Marches. It was bestowed onto him. So that means he's the Supreme Commander of the Riverland forces, not Edmure Tully. So it kind of reminds me of Emin Frey, who we've seen a little bit lately, right? And Jenna, who says to Emin that Edmure is the Lord, not you, Emin.

But even here, Edmure's not the Lord so much as the men in time of war respond to the Blackfish. And the Blackfish keeps reminding Jaime that he's loyal to the Northern regime, to the wolves, to the king in the North, whoever he may be someday. Right now, there is no king in the north but there's still like you know what uh what what is the uh phrase in for a penny in for a golden stag you know they're like look we've already decided to rebel against you there's no way we're turning back now oh yeah so even if we don't technically have a king we'd rather still fight this war in the name of someone who died than ever bend the knee to you guys again it's kind of like obviously they had the last

straw right because it's kind of silly to be like you know the kingdom died just because of rob and part of it is because everyone's like where where are the other Starks? But they're trying to find them. But just because Joffrey or Robert died doesn't mean that entire dynasty died. Even though technically it did, but they don't know that. They don't know that the children. Not everyone does. I mean, Jaime does, obviously, but whatever. I think that the calling out of the warden thing is interesting and good,

considering Jaime doesn't think about it much. But that was like a big deal in a Game of Thrones once more. Titles, titles. It's going to be awarded. So. But right now all has fallen except for Riverrun and the Lannister Frey Coalition is 20 times

the numbers that Brynden's team does. Although not quite the same amount of provisions but Jamie doesn't say as much. But the Blackfish knows that, but Jamie doesn't say as much. But the Blackfish knows that they burnt down the fields, disbelieving him. Jamie retorts that they can bring food from the twins. We have this quote here of, If you say so, far be it from me to question

the word of such an honorable knight. The scorn in his voice made Jamie bristle. That's a line from Brendan Blackfish, which of course you know, Jamie's anger gets the better of him and he offers single combat really, really bold choice there

Jamie, he's like a champion each and Brendan mocks him asking who would fight and he gives a bunch of like different good choices and then leans in and is like what about you Jamie, what about you and me Jamie, let's dance he doesn't say that, but that's what he means.

Jamie explains the vow he swore to Catelyn Stark to never raise a hand against any of her family, and the Blackfish calls it very convenient for a cripple, and Jamie asks him to free him of this vow then, and then he'll meet him sword to sword.

If Jamie wins, reverence his sword. If Shady wins, river runs his. If the Blackfish wins, the siege will end. These are big bets. I have rollers here. The stakes are high. Very high. They really are. Yeah, the Blackfish

literally is thinking, he's like, I'd love to take your golden sword and cut your heart out. He straight up says this, I'm like i'm like okay death wish but says he'd gain nothing from the pleasure of killing him and jamie's like if i had a sword i'd kill this motherfucker i would go down with this motherfucker he's like i don't care he then asks if there were any terms that the black fish would accept and the black fish is like nope I came here for the lulz. I came here to see your stump, hear your excuses. And he says, they were feebler than I'd hoped.

You always disappoint, Kingslayer. Ouch. Ouch. Big burn. Totally out. Big bird. Totally out. I don't know.

Wow. Well, but not a bird. I don't know. Big fish. Wow. Well, but not a bird. I don't know. Big fish? Jamie turns on his head about and rides back to the Lannister

lines, telling men staring at him the phrase as well. They obviously can tell he blew it. He has to storm the castle. Well, what's one more broken vow to the Kingslayer? Just more shit in the bucket.

Oh, Jamie. That's sad. So dramatic. Yeah, you know, it is what it is with him. Jamie resolves to be the first man on the battlements, although he thinks likely the first man to die by his hand.

Jamie, frustrated in his inability to solve things with the sword like he always has Gets back to camp and Esquire pulls him down to his regrets He thinks, do they think I'm such a cripple I cannot dismount myself? So I would never admit that I relate to Jamie Lannister in any sort of way or that I like him. Legally, I would not say that I like him. And if you think that legally you can claim I like him, you're incorrect.

And you will be hearing from my lawyers from the Learned Hands pod. And I will be on the prosecution with evidence of Chloe crying on the podcast about Jamie Lannister. That never happened. That didn't even happen once. And I feel like you're just making things up. I have proof. Okay, so I have a handful, ha ha, pun intentional, of disabilities

specifically in my hands, and George does get this right, because this whole line, this whole passage, it feels like this hot flame of anger and betrayal at your own body for not doing things that everybody else can do and you cannot and there's like no way to soothe that feeling other than to yell at yourself about it repeatedly and like condition yourself to not hate yourself and it's

not easy i don't think i've even mastered it but like jamie obviously has not mastered it we know he is full of this toxic loathing of his self right and who he's become uh and his acedia and it's just really relatable it's really a bummer and really relatable because here he's like do they think I'm such a cripple I can't dismount by myself and it's not that he's angry at Peck or his squires right he's not angry at them he's angry at himself and he's angry at peck or his squires right he's not angry at them he's angry at himself and he's angry at himself for failing with the blackfish and for failing not just at getting him to peacefully surrender but like failing because that's his childhood hero that he just had to go try to ask to surrender a castle like that's not what you want to be with your childhood hero.

Yeah. It's a lot. There's a lot of things going on there. And, you know, thank you. Thank you for sharing your experiences and like how, how that relates to Jamie Lannister and what he's dealing with right now. And I mean, yeah, it's a lot of that. And a lot of his identity for a long time, right. Has been tied to what he's dealing with right now and i mean yeah it's a lot of that and a lot of his identity for a long time right has been tied to what he's able to do especially martially so now his pride is

hurt and i obviously pride is a big part of what's going on here yeah yeah unfortunately yeah having to deal with disabilities is definitely not fun. I mean, listen, I've, I've had each one of my legs broken at different points, sprained, uh, you know, like what a separated shoulder and sprained wrist and all that other kind of

stuff. And yeah, you know, when you're going through it, you know, it's, it's, it's never easy.

And especially when other people make light of it like oh yeah look look what you have it was like hey what the hell like if you were in this situation you wouldn't think it's funny at all and you should be lucky that you're not in this situation so like yeah i have sympathy for for jamie when it comes to that kind of stuff too but there's still the other part of me that's like with all the things that you have done you know how do you expect people to treat you yeah you know people just aren't gonna feel sad for him because of the things that he has done with his time on planetos he's not a very sympathetic character right right now he's just not it's hard to feel bad for him right now when he's done some pretty terrible things and been complicit in crimes that he might not have actually like done

right like he might not have slit rob stark's throat but he definitely paved the way for it to be done and he's learning when his actions mean those sort of things right like he's learning that when i say go ahead and do this to my bannermen or to people that my father's working with or people that work with the lannister name they might it. And he's kind of owning up for that now and understanding what these sins mean. Yeah, it's one of those things where you know, he he's very aware that he has

reaped the benefits of his family's past crimes against humanity, I guess? Yeah. You know, so he definitely knows that he has reaped the benefits from it it's you know but he and he's been okay with it for for a very long time yeah you know so like yeah who's gonna feel sorry for the guy who you've done horrible things to people or your family has

and now because of the horrible things that your family has done, here you get to stand. You get to have your choice of what armor you want to wear as you go and tell somebody, hey, either you do what I say or I'm going to have you and your entire family murdered. Yeah, not much of a choice, right? Like he could have just quit his job. Yeah, so. murdered yeah not much of a choice right like he could have just quit his job yeah so and i think that's that's something that's part of this chapter you know along with what you're saying of like the choice of what he could have done but there's also a lot of like there's a lot of reputation that's following everyone there's the reputation of the blackfish that's here that jamie

is very cognizant of and of course the reputation reputation that follows Jaime himself as a Kingslayer, and then the reputation of the Lannister family that has been protecting him for a long time. He's like, do I want this protection anymore? Yeah, that crimson cloak, a cloak of protection. There you go. Yeah, should have just worn the leather jacket, got on your bike. Your bike. That's actually a horse named Honor. Jamie. That's outlaw country, baby. That's the winner. Oh my god. Can't wait for outlaw country. I fucking hope so.

I fucking hope so. Well, Davin Lannister is asking Jamie how it went with the Blackfish. And Jamie's like, you fucking know how it went, Davin. Don't ask me how it went. And he's like, I was rhyming junior out there. Don't talk to me, I'm achy. He's like, I was useless. He asks him to assemble his war council with the whole group. They gather quickly.

Lord Piper and Vance speak for the repentant Triad Lords who were about to be tested for their loyalty. Davin, Strongboar, Adam Marbrand, Pruster, they all represent the West. Emin and Jenna joining them lady jenna claims her stool with a look that dared any man there to question her presence none did damn

straight i liked that i'm glad that it was kept in that jenna you know looks around like question it i dare you good for her um from the phrase came walder Rivers and Edwin, Ryman's firstborn, who comes in his stead because Ryman is indisposed. Jamie asks, is he drunk or just green sick from being drunk last night? And Edwin's like, must I suffer such discourtesy from you, Lord Jamie? Jamie says, well, is it true or not? And Edwin eyes Sir Illyn, who looms at the door to the tent. Edwin claims that Ryman has a bad belly and that wine helps him digest. And Davin says he must be digesting a bloody boar. Everyone cackles.

Jamie says they need to plan the war, so they better stop laughing. I just wanted to point out again that, you know, Davin is so much acting here like the Torbindjorn or the Greyjohn or something, kind of like that figure in Jaime's party. It's just interesting that he decided you know, every single D&D party needs one of these sorts of characters. So, threw in one of those.

Jaime's copying what he thinks his father would do. He lets the captain speak first. Eamon Frey says says they should hang Edmure to teach Brynden Tully that they mean what they say. Carol Vance says that Brynden Tully's not easily moved. After all, his own brother, Hoster Tully, couldn't even get him into a marriage bed.

Daemon says they need a full-on siege. Storm the walls, ladders, rams. Strongborn says he'll lead the assault. A lot of different ideas here this is quite the brainstorm evan pulls out his paper shield complaining about them breaking his castle walls down again then edmund snaps at him to wave his shield at the blackfish see how that goes marbarin proposes they send a dozen picked men in a boat with muffled oars at night scaling the wall with ropes and grapples and opening from within.

I feel like we've seen this somewhere in this book series before. Walden Rivers and Edwin call it folly, that the blackfish will make it difficult. So then Edwin proposes they give a fate, an attack on the front gates, bringing Brynden to the battlements where they can attack him with the night soil,

tipped arrows, giving them River run, which Emin reminds them is his castle. My castle, Emin Frey. Me, remember me. Again, I'm not Emin Frey. I have no relation to him whatsoever. Lord Carol,

who looked melancholy in the beginning of the council, looks even darker, asking if Edwin will contribute the mortal poison of nightshade, and Strongboar says the blackfish deserves a noble death which he plans to administer to him i'm sorry everyone there were like a lot of names and it just felt right to keep going all good no that's uh you know the lord carol stuff really stands out in this on the war council these river lords that are repentant that are loyal or were once loyal now their loyalty is being tested obviously i felt like that was something just really significant and that you know the very

first fucking thing said by a fray here is what if we betrayed him like that's the most fray bullshit in the world the phrase immediately we're like all right here's what we do we trick the motherfucker and we get him out on his battlements then Then he poisoned him. And Carol Vance is like, holy shit, you people don't stop. Like, this is just you 24-7. Yeah, and then they wonder why no one likes the phrase. Yeah, I wonder why. Why? I can't figure it out, Don Willie.

There are a few good phrases. Fewer and fewer, honestly. Fewer and fewer. One of them is not good, who is here at this council right now we'll touch on again walder rivers interesting very interesting intrigued but right now you know the language here there's i don't know there's a lot it describes the blackfish in a way that kind of reminds me of the way the talk about bears and they're like oh he's old we can totally take him and like we know from some so spake martins that barrison hadn't

actually been conceived as a point of view character until like after the publishing of feast a sort of like an addition or solution to providing a perspective in marine while danny was like off in the desert and shit um literally and shit now that i think about it um but it does give you a sense to how people underestimate Barristan, considering how Brendan Tully, right, is also a very storied fighter, and how George likes to write these. And I just, you know, I stand this archetype as well. I, too, love Uncle Iroh and King Kumi, the secretly badass great fighter old man.

So, you know, I get it it it's just something that i thought was interesting especially if beast and dance were one book once upon a time but obviously that's not the case any anymore yeah that's actually a really great call out i do like that uh george obviously likes that wizened wizened sort of mentor role absolutely you know we get a better look at a couple names during this sir forley prester for example who is a hot to trot everyone's voting for him for pov for the intro the prologue to the winds of winter and i think that's probably probably the right guy but he tells them look none of this is going to accomplish anything and norbert vance the blind lord of atranta shout out to Jack Vance,

who is one of Martin's favorite authors, says he squired with Brendan when they were young and asks if he can speak with him to loosen him on the situation's hopelessness. But Lord Piper pipes up and says, Brendan knows this is hopeless and he isn't stupid. He has too much sense to yield to the likes of these people. Edwin, of course, thinks those are fighting words, and he's like, if my Lord of Piper means to imply,

but Lord Piper cuts him off and says, I don't imply. I say what I mean. You know, like an honest man. We get this passage. But what would you know of the ways of honest men? You're a treacherous, lying weasel like all your kin. I'd sooner drink a pint of piss than take the word of any fray. Damn straight. He leaned across the table. Where's Mark? Answer me that.

What have you done with my son? He was a guest at your bloody wedding. They go on to argue, and Jamie thinks his father's war counsels were never this much of a shitshow. Doesn't look good definitely not you know and it's almost kind of you know what did you really expect these people were not only your enemies they were each other's enemies just a very short time ago you know and now you're asking them to go and betray someone whose cause they were just fighting now honestly you know yeah the frays were never really down the frays were only in it for whatever they can get out of the whole situation to begin with right but the other river lords that were there they were truly down for the cause and so now it's like okay they they gave up because they realized all right look we did the best we could

but tyler got the better of the situation the lannisters are in control all right cool what do you what do you want us to do and so now with this whole situation where the frays are still holding captives it's like dude how do you expect for people to to trust you and think that you're worth anything when you're holding captives that really you shouldn't have and you're gonna try to try to. Try to antagonize. People by telling them. Like yeah we got them. And we keep talking slick.

And we'll send them back in pieces. Yeah. Like yeah. That's definitely a way to win friends. That's a great point. Like I mean. This whole coalition here right now it's held together like fucking scotch tape and you know as you said like some of their loyalties only secured by

hostages which of course is like a big part of what's going on in this chapter but of course everyone like doesn't trust each other within this camp yeah and it's funny because it's not the only place having a shit show of a war council it's just that jamie, and it's funny because it's not the only place having a shitshow of a war council. It's just that Jaime actually recognizes it's a shitshow, right? Like, he right now is like, wow, this freaking sucks. However, someone else that's having

a shitshow of a war council right now is Cersei, and she refuses to acknowledge it as a shitshow, right? She has nothing but licksfiddles and just, like, awful people on her council. Orraine Waters comes back with news she refuses to acknowledge it as a shit show right she has nothing but licks fiddles and just like awful people on her council or rain waters comes back with news of dragon stone being hers and he's like you lost thousands of men your grace because of loris and he's barely alive and instead of listening to even more details she's like this is so great this is the best thing ever i have to

tweet about this right now right like she pulls out the phone and she's on the timeline about it. And Orraine's like, I can tell you more. And she's like, that won't be necessary. Jaime is trying to do the exact opposite of Cersei in this manner. Cersei wants to burn things down and she doesn't care if it takes out half her army to do so. Jaime is like, let's go lease bloodshed. Although he would obviously love to kill some of his own men right now. Cersei looks at the news of Loras as great. She thinks of it as her enemies dying conveniently,

that she's Lord Tywin's heir through and through, but the Tyrells are honestly like the closest thing to good that she could be like using right now, right? Like their protection, she kind of needs it, whether she wants to admit it or not. She thinks in that chapter, if Lord Tywin could see me now, he'd know he had his heir, an heir worthy of the rock, she thought. She holds counsel with her Lickspittle lords, and she too has a singer involved in her plot, Lewat, in that next chapter. And what we're about to see with Blackfish and Edmure and Tama Sevenstrings shows us Jaime's much closer to being Tywin's heir here than Cersei in mannerism.

He's determined to show Jena he is actually Tywin's son. And using language that seems very Tywin, although we know he doesn't want to do the follow through, is what's happening here. And absolutely at the end of this plan, of course, it's ruined, just like Cersei's, because they chose the wrong singer, right? He chooses Tama Sevens, she chooses Blue Watt, and we know that those two do not work for their plots. But how is anyone supposed to know? Like, who was on fucking Pitchfork telling them all of this stuff? Edmure? I mean, not Jaime, but Edmure's vocal about it. Jamie's not listening to indie music.

He's not going to house shows. The Blackfire Festival? Oh my god. Oh god. I think that should be our theme for Ice and Fire time. Oh my god. Hey, listen, it's my favorite house.

I'll be down for it. Hell yeah. You know what they're growing on me dude they are growing on me i can't even lie about it like bit by bit i'm like interesting i like the black fires yeah i was thinking earlier sorry i only remember this now that you know in the context of britain telling him being like yeah i don't trust that boy he did fight in the war of the nine penny that makes That makes sense. Yeah, bastards. I get it. You might be like, hmm. That was a lot of trouble for me, individually. It was.

It was! It was a big deal. Led to a lot of things. I think that if Tywin could see Cersei or Jaime now, he'd be like, oh my fucking god. Idiots. You pretty. Y'all are pretty. Not smart, though. jamie's doing okay but piper and edmund

though they are still at each other's throats and walter river stands and says he will fight piper outside right now if he wants to continue this walter river is very interesting once more i stand he's not a good person but he's interesting Jamie reminds them it's a war council not a war and that everyone needs to sit down Piper mutters and leaves the tent and Davin asks if he should send men after him Edwin says they should

send Sir Illion Kirill defends him saying that Piper speaks in grief for his firstborn son and his knights, nephews and cousins also it's like just a stupid choice. Like, you're gonna send the guy who can't, like... Anyway. Yeah.

It's not smart. Yes, he's scary. But anyways, Edmund calls them traitors and rebels, and Jamie reminds him that, you know what, Edmund, all of you and your kin are technically traitors and rebels as well, and worse, as you joined and also betrayed the young wolf. So, I don't know, in a way, like, what I find interesting about this exchange is

I feel that Jaime is dishing out what he got earlier today from Brendan Tully. You know, Jaime is trying to escape that reputation right of kingslayer and being someone who, like, betrays people and shit. And the question on his honor is essentially because because you know he came back here he's like yeah so the stark girls i don't have them right now and it's really

buttressed well because this uh chapter comes right after the brienne chapter where she's continuing to still try and find those stark girls and also even runs into gendry she's getting a little bit closer but also she's not as close as she wants to be but then here you're seeing jamie deliver the very same accusations against the phrase right like bringing up their own reputation for dishonor and betrayal which you know quite frankly it was really really bad they deserve it it was very recent as well it wasn't like a something like a 16 year old did it was a thing like wow you guys you really did this you broke this huge cultural taboo it's not even that it's like it's almost like he's coming home from work and being like why are my kids so fucking idiotic right like if you guys hadn't done this one thing we wouldn't

be in this fucking shit show right now you know like that's how he feels he's taking out that anger like you said against them but like if they hadn't murdered Robb Stark at a wedding after he had already eaten bread and salt, they wouldn't be in this bullshit. The phrase for generations, generations have been trying to find some way to be in the big leagues, I guess you could say, right? Yeah. the big leagues i guess you could say right yeah and so for them it's like walder is the culmination of that mentality so for him it's like hey you know what no this is just how you this is just how you rise up and as much as i hate to quote the show, there is one thing that was said by Bron that is very poignant.

And that is when he rolls up on Jaime and Tyrion inside of Winterfell or Molestown or wherever that was supposed to be where they were drinking he just kind of pops up on it he's like hey you know

who do you think your ancestors were? You know your ancestors weren't just noblemen no they were cutthroats they killed people to get you know to get their name out there and to build up their house and like yeah you you're

reaping the benefits from it now but thousands of years ago your ancestors were cutthroats yeah like so hey the phrase just kept that mentality you know even though they're they're yeah a noble house they're like yeah but we're still not at the top of the food chain. Yeah, they're not big time. Yeah, so the only way for them to get there is like, all right, we can't marry into the top of the food chain. I want to be there before this is all over. So, no, to hell with it. I'm going to get it any way I can.

You're telling me I can kill somebody and move up fine let's do that yeah yeah they they're trying to forge their own path and i mean they don't try to in most ways they don't try to pretend to be anything that they aren't when it comes to the part where they committed this huge cultural taboo of breaking gas right so it's kind of hard to hide jamie like, decides that the Freys are enough garbage for the day, and he tells them, listen, we're attacking at first light. Get ready. Get prepared.

See you then. He watches Edmure Tully from his gallows across the water and eyes the Frey camps when Enn and Frey comes once more to plead his case for his castle, saying, I forbid you from damaging it. And Tommen Baratheon,

the king signed this piece of paper to say so. And I love this because this has to annoy Jamie. I bet Jamie's like, I know who that little fucker is. I squirted him out. You do not have to tell me who he is. Like I know who King Tommen Baratheon is. Okay.

Whomst? Exactly. Never heard of it. Again, like here's how Eamon, I think especially differs from either tywin or ruse because again he has this inability to separate the building from the actual power and to sacrifice the bricks for the respect or fear or power that actually holding the title of lord of Riverrun would confer him. Because I don't respect Tywin or Roose,

but I do think that Tywin would have just taken it and then been like, whatever, we'll fucking rebuild it later. And, I mean, Ramsay, we get proof of this because Ramsay did as much at the behest of Roose Bolton. He was like, you know what, whatever. We're gonna just burn Winterfell, you know? And now Winterfell is still in shambles by book five so it got the

Bolton's the North it worked for you know for now for now it's not a permanent solution but they don't know that but we do you know we I mean we know this because we have you know the show that the books are based off of supposedly I mean, we know this because we have, you know, the show that the books are based off of.

Supposedly. Domino's about to quit the podcast. He's about to quit guesting. We had a good run. Thank you for coming. Jenna reminds Emon that he's not the Lord, though, as long as Edm Edmure exists and asks Jaime what do you mean to do about it Jaime thinks the blackfish is the real danger not Edmure, gratefully so

he tells them to leave Edmure to him requesting Lyle and Illyn accompany him to the gallows they wait for the fairy the Freys had already taken it across and when they finally cross a drunken camp follower propositions Strongboar. Strongboar offers his friend, Sir Illyn, instead to be pleasured,

and when she goes to kiss him, she sees his eyes and shrinks away. Okay, sorry, sorry, hold on, hold on. I'm now a surprisingly strange Illyn Payne stan as well. Oh my god. And I just feel bad. Like, what happened to Illyn Payne that he's just so scary in his eyes

and i mean ill and pain has no friends yeah he had his tongue ripped out and he can't communicate with anyone he can't read or write even and then he had a shitty room because he was depressed sorry i just want to remind everyone my god god, Eliana. Not that this person owes Ilan Payne affection, they don't. But I'm just like, what happened to you? Wow. Sorry. I just want to take this time to look at Ilan Payne in the eyes.

Well, Eliana's favorite character is now Ilan Payne so it's going good. So everywhere that Jamie looks out across the fork he sees the blue on gray of the twins and it must be obnoxious first of all but he also sees lesser houses he sees the heron of erinford the pitchfork of high pitchfork of high and charlton's mistletoe sprigs everyone stops to stare a half familiar night gets to his knee two men at arms spray pee on each other to turn and look at the king slayer wow that's my favorite part i highlighted on purpose because literally these two dudes i guess are

peeing at the river and they cross streams i thought that was interesting uh don't cross the street one calls jamie's, but he strides on. He sees many faces of men that he's tried to kill before in the whispering wood, and his hand feels very heavy at his side. He passes Ryman's huge rectangular pavilion with gray canvas walls and peaks that evoke the twins, and Ryman is far from being indisposed. He's being entertained, and Jamie hears drunken laughter of woman, and a singer's voice, and a wood heart. He thinks he'll deal with them later. He passes Walder Rivers on the way to the gallows, and he thinks about how he's more dangerous than any of

the other brothers. As he arrives at the gallows, spearmen attempt to stop him. Jamie taps his sword, asking if they'd like to question his deadly authority, and up he goes to the gallows. Edmure stares down, his feet black and caked with mud, legs bare, wearing a silken house-tolly tunic and a noose of rope. He calls Jamie the Kingslayer and sees Sir Illyn. He calls out to him, telling him he'd rather it be a sword than a rope, telling him to do it. Push the goddamn button. Jamie lets Sir Illyn pull his sword, saying,

You heard the man? But as Illyn comes close, Edwin Frey comes into view screaming, No! Saying, Jamie must, and Jamie interrupts requesting he be called my lord. Also basically he tells him, don't speak to me.

I love that. Don't talk to me. I'm inky. I love that meme, I'm sorry. So Rhyme and Frey shows up with a blind camp follower whose breast is spilling out of her gown. And she wears a circlet of hammered bronze engraved with runes and small black swords okay first of all how fucking dare you how dare you fucking manhandle that crown that is a relic that is a goddamn relic that is the fucking crown of

winter okay so that's first of all that's just my first thought second of all how dare dare how dare okay second of all i didn't think about it but edwin fray runs up and he's like you must or you mustn't lord jamie just like cersei in the last cersei chapter uh marjorie says to her that she must answer something fiercely and i thought that was a really good parallel i just thought about that because i didn't think edwin fray coming into the frame being like jamie you must and when marjorie says you must to cersei cersei thinks i must like how dare she presume this little bitch but jamie does stop i mean to be fair jamie stops to listen yeah it's like when i tell

people especially my partner i'm like don't tell me what to do and then i let them tell me what to do but so it's actually a little different never mind it's not the same at all eliana read the next part okay i thought you were gonna say don't tell me what to do oh see like i said i'm'm soft. Like, ill and pain on the inside. So, this woman, she laughs, asking who the blind guy with the golden hand is. And he asks who she is, calling her a lady.

She argues, saying, I'm the queen, not a lady. Jamie says, Cersei might have some qualms with that. But Lord Ryman apparently crowned her himself the, in quotes, queen of whores jamie thinks no cersei holds that title too it's like wow uh you know at this point keep jamie is so so dejected that he's just like yeah look you can't even have the title being Queen of Whores because my sister already has that title. He's so just kind of put off by his family at this point that he's just like, yeah, okay, whatever.

Whatever you can think bad about yourself, no, there's something worse. Somebody in my family definitely fits the bill for being worse than you. That's true his family also it's like it's so it's such like bitter breakup language you know the way that he's thinking yeah he's finally in that stage right it's like the first stage that he's finally admitting to himself like fuck cersei and he's just like mad he's angry that's true earlier he was in denial back then until he met lancel now Lancel. Now he's in the red fork. Dabda.

Not denial. Oh. Yeah. The trident. Ryman tells her to shut up! Sorry. Okay, I'll shut up. And Jamie eyes him thick-set, broad face,

small eyes, fleshy chins, with breath of wine and onions. Interesting. Sometimes that's me. Jamie inquires softly about his making of queens and calls it stupid, much like the business with Edmure. And Ryman defends his choices, saying that his son did the same at Seagard

and it worked with Lord Jason and Patrick Starr, but the Blackfish is a fish by different scales and he asks, you know, if they hang Emhyr, then we're going to have no hostage. Have you thought about that, Jamie Lannister? Have you thought about that? And

I'm going to throw this crazy crazy idea out there that I thought of as we've been going through this chapter. It's the way that Jamie Lannister is feeling about the incompetence of Ryman Frey and his of as we've been going through this chapter is the way that jamie lannister is feeling about the the incompetence of ryman frey and his dalliances with i don't know this woman calling herself this camp follower uh the way that tywin lannister felt about tydos and tydos's mistress yeah i could see a little of that coming into play here i didn't think about it that way but that pride being hurt and also that feeling it seems like that he keeps feeling like, you know, we're fucking better

than this. I thought we were better than this, which he's learning this entire time is a lie. They're not better than this. Yeah. And I mean, I think I don't respect Tywin once more, but I, you know, you can sort of get a glimpse of the frustrations that he might have had especially considering that he had to deal with this I guess on a daily basis when it's his own parents Jamie says only a fool makes threats that he can't carry out and threatens

to hit him unless he shut his mouth Ryman of course tries to speak and Jamie backhands him sending him stumbling backwards into the blonde girl's arms Dong-Gie's nodding scene i want to point that out to everyone don't really nods a lot but it felt notable noteworthy to me that's like better than the stannis nod right the stannis nodding at john

that's the don willie nod of respect he's like yes jamiehand Ryman. Jaime's doing a lot of backhanding these days. Listen, and with the golden hand on top of it, too. Oh, that's true. I didn't even think about that. That would hurt much more. Yeah, I mean, listen, you just gotta love the fact that Jaime was willing to call Ryman Frey on his bullshit. It's like, yeah, look, you've been sitting here trying to fake out the blackfish for so long that he knows you're not serious he knows you want the castle but you're not willing to do the thing you say you're gonna do in order to get it so that's why he's sitting there talking all kinds

of shit about yeah kill him kill him kill him because he knows you're not going to do anything it's like i tell you that if you don't shut your mouth i'm gonna slap the shit out of you guess what happens if you open your mouth you get slapped by golden hand the just you know exactly uh so ryman defends his choices, right? And after being backhanded, he is very quiet. He sinks to his knees. Jamie starts playing the game where he asks Illyn how many cuts it would take to slice Ryman's neck. Illyn lays one finger on his nose. He's like, try me. And Ryman, of course, starts sobbing, declaring he's done nothing.

He's the heir of the crossing. And Jaime finishes that with, yes, you've done nothing but drink and whore. I know. But Jaime warned him about talking back to him. And he looks at the craven and thinks Lord Walder had best outlive this one or the phrase are done. Darn, because he doesn't. He dismisses him from his sight anywhere, but not camp.

He says, take your queen queen but not her crown. He turns to Edwin giving him his father's command and saying he hopes he won't be quite as stupid as his father. I know we don't actually hear about Jaime getting the crown from him after this which is something really interesting because that is the crown of winter and we do know that it makes its way into Lady Stoneheart's hands. We have that from the Merit Frey chapter, right? That she has the crown. So in a way it feels like an empty threat, much like the later catapulting of Edmure's baby threat.

But how does that move into Lady Stoneheart and feast? Ryman gets sent back to the twins after this with three knights and 12 men at arms. They are hanged at fair market between Jaime six and seven. Jaime learns this next chapter at Riverrun when Edwin accuses him of having his father's blood on his hands. And of course, in Brienne eight, we see the crown where Brienne sees a trestle table had been set up across the cave and a cleft in the rock. Behind it sat a woman all in gray, cloaked and hooded. In her hand was a crown, a bronze circlet ringed by iron swords. The other way the crowd could have made it there is if Jaime did take

the crown from Ryman, because Tom of Seven Strings, as we know, does not hide who he is, and we the reader already know who he is because of Arya chapters. He introduces himself to Jaime with no lies about who he is in chapter seven, saying he's Tom of Seven Strings, and he is told to sing sweetly. And Jaime's really not alone here, right? Like, he has Wrath the Sweetling in his company, just in food for thought that Jaime is surrounded by some of these characters that we know are about to coincide with the stoneheart plot so that crown could have gotten there one way or another yeah it's a very kind of auspicious thing that jamie was sitting there looking at the

crown upon someone's head who definitely should not have had it in the first place and now it is back kind of where it belongs to a certain extent and i wonder what he's gonna think if he actually sees that crown again like is is he going to wonder about was it taken from the queen of whores by lady stoneheart Is she still alive, or is this just a thing of, hey, someone took the crown from her at some point and gave it back to Catelyn? Because, like, what was he going to do with it? Was he going to try to get it back to her, or is this a failure just like Sansa and Arya?

Right. You know, obviously, look, it's a crown. It's a crown that's a very symbolic thing. And when you're only really trying to have one monarch of the seven kingdoms, do you really want any other crowns floating out there? So if anything, I think he probably would have tried, like, if he could have, he probably would have taken the crown back to King's Landing as a trophy. Yeah, and I think that makes sense, that he would take it back. But I have never thought of the context of like if jamie encounters it again then i think that's a good question especially you know as he wrestles with

does it make sense for him to be a king's guard for this regime sure don't and you know is it worth worth it for him does he go not just that. I don't think this is Jaime's storyline, but if I'm just playing around with ideas right now, if he encounters another crown, going from a kingslayer to another kingmaker, especially since we learn about Crest and Cole through Jaime's storyline, but I haven't really thought about

if he sees it again, and he probably will. He's already seen Lady Stoneheart again. So, you know, it makes for a good dramatic effect at any sort of trial. It kind of is like a follow the hand and see where it goes, right? Like a street game of which cup is the crown under, because it probably will blow his mind. He'll be like, wow, I was supposed to take that,

and then they were hanged, and that's how she got it, probably. Oh, shit. Or it could just be people are spying on him. both are not going to make him feel great so jamie commands that word be sent to walter fray to bring the prisoners that he has for the crown and that edmure must be brought down which currently edmure's face planted into a scaffold from the rope being sliced strong boborn takes the fish on a leash, the bit of noose still around his neck, and Jamie commands the man holding the wood heart to follow them as well.

Edmure grasps Jamie's arm as they leave and asks the question of why. In his head, Jamie is thinking, a Lannister pays his debts and you are all the coin left to save. But he tells him it's a wedding gift. He goes on to say, I heard your bride was pretty. She must be because you banged her while your family and your king were

slaughtered. Edmure's like, I didn't know there were fiddlers outside the chambers and Rosalind wept. But I thought, and Jamie quips, is it because of your manhood? Lol, which we know there's a song written about. Edmure says she's carrying his child and jamie thinks no she's carrying your death dude when they reach the pavilion he dismisses ill and pain and strong bore but he does not dismiss the singer he has lou heat bath water for his guest asks pia to grab new clothing for him less lion like if she can peck finds wine jamie asks if edmure is hungry yeah so again a lot of this scene as jamie finally returns to riverrun and encounters some tallies again has that specter what's more of caitlin hanging as god earlier joked um hanging over it from jamie's oaths but you know for this very scene it i think in many ways it's like a

revisiting or just like a reimagining of Jamie's own imprisonment last time when Tully that time was interrogating him and the roles were quite a bit reversed, but this time it's actually Edmure who's longing to return to his lover, who is in fact his

unrelated wife and not his sister unlike Jamie at the time. And now it's Jaime who's hoping to exchange Ednure in return for Riverrun, whereas last time it was Jaime in return for the Stark girls. And he's putting his trust, right, in Ednure's love for his hopefully new family,

his alleged baby that's growing. As Jaime, you know, realized, you know, he has other hostages and other hands to play. Unlike Ryman, who's like, I've got one hostage and it's Ed, you're telling Jamie's like, no, you have other hostages that you can use on this hostage. But, you know, unlike how Catelyn was kind of just putting her trust in Jamie, you know, Jamie has some leverage here. And what's at stake, though, in both of these prisoner releases is quite the same and it's something that's been carrying through throughout all of jamie's arcs since a clash of kings it's

jamie's honor we are not talking about the horse but maybe we can be talking about the horse a little if people want us to yeah so suspicious edmure sinks into the bath where his filth clouds the water that's uh That's a lot. Jaime tells him that once he has eaten, he'll be escorted to Riverrun, and what happens next is up to him. The Blackfish does nothing left but Edmure. And Edmure's uncle serves him as the rightful lord, and Riverrun's fate is in his hands.

Yes, yield and no one dies. His small folk can serve Lord Emin or go in peace. Brynden can take the Black, many of the Garrison as well. If the wall appeals to Edmure, he's welcome to it, or he can go with his wife to Casterly Rock as a high-ranking hostage with comforts fitting his lordship. If the child's a boy, he'll be a page in a squire to House Lannister. He'll get lands at Knighthood. A daughter, they'll dower her well when she's old enough to wed, and Edmure might even be granted parole. All he has to do is yield. So there's a couple of questions of inheritance right here going on that I just think it's well

placed in the context of Cersei's chapter, which is so focused on, of course, Tommen's kingship and where power derives from there. And then, of course, Tommen's kingship and where power derives from there. And then, of course, Brienne discussing heirs as Heilhund is all like, I don't know, we could make heirs. And then Brienne's like, I don't know, my dad could make his own new heirs. And then, of course, running into Gendry, one of Robert Baratheon's children and prospective heirs, in a way. And, you know, people are thinking this about Ed, your still unborn child.

So, you know, it does stand to reason that some of Cersei's paranoia exists, right? Like, I can't imagine that people aren't thinking this about Cersei, especially because she does make the Tyrells' lives a bit difficult. A bit. Just a bit. Again, this whole thing with Jaime, he's trying to play the good guy you know he's trying to appeal to edmure's humanity i guess you know he's telling him like look you're the lord i understand you know blackfish is a legend and all that but people

are supposed to be listening to you so i'm going to give you some things that might make it easier for you to yield the castle all right so look if you have a boy we'll raise him up he'll he'll be a knight he'll get some lands maybe you'll even be paroled after this whole thing is is over if you have a daughter make sure that she's wed to a to a nice nice suitor have a nice dowry for you know things will be cool all you gotta do is yield the castle no one has to die blackfish goes and takes the black if you don't want to be a hostage living in Casterly Rock in comfort that befits someone of your station, fine, you can go to the wall

too, but just know that I am offering that, you know, that you still get to live in the lap of luxury. Be a hostage, but hey, would you rather be in the frozen north? Yeah, you just gotta sell out all of your ideals and values and all the men that died for us to get this far mbd but don't let it be said that jamie lannister wasn't kind

and giving and gracious okay yeah and so that's that's the thing about it like he's trying to to show like hey look this doesn't have to be ugly okay it was ugly but now what are we all fighting for okay you don't need to fight we can maybe not be friends but we don't necessarily have to be enemies here yeah that's the thing he's he's trying to impress upon edmure and obviously we'll see how that turns out a little later but it's still the whole thing of, look, I'm trying here, you know, I'm giving you the olive branch. Don't say I didn't reach out and try to be gentle about all this stuff, whereas you know what my supposed reputation is, or the reputation of the Lannisters, so don't say I didn't try. Yeah, and that is what begs the next question, right? Because Edmure asks, okay, well, this all sounds very nice and gracious.

So tell me the downside. What happens if I don't yield? And so everyone's listening, right? The singer is listening. His squires are listening. Jaime thinks, let them hear. It makes no matter. And he forces himself to smile.

And he basically says he's seen ladders, towers, trebuchets, and rams. At Jaime's command, Davin will bridge the moat and break the gate. Hundreds will die, most his own. His former bannermen will be the first wave of attackers, so they'll kill the fathers and brothers of the men who died for Edmure at the Twins. The second wave will be the Freys. He has no lack of Freys. And then finally, the Westermen will follow

when all of Edmure's knights and archers have been exhausted. And when the castle falls, Jaime says, all inside will be put to the sword. The gods would felled, herds butchered, keeps and towers burnt. And it's pretty dark, you know, like he says, this is what's going to go down if you say no, Edmure. So something that I thought was interesting between this conversation with Edmure, but especially earlier on, you know, at one time, Jaime thinks like, you know, this blood is going to be on your hands or something.

Brynden, Tully or whatever. I don't remember the exact quote. It's in this chapter, but kind of forcing the blame on, you know, on the Tullys for what befalls them for not giving in. and it reminded me again of the way that Theon thought of his taking of Winterfell and he's like damn you know y'all really forced me to do this wasn't my fault all these horrible things that I'm going to do

or that I'm threatening and if I have to carry them out it is your fault for not giving in to my demands. Yeah. And it kind of reminds me of that. And I just can't divorce the idea that, you know, Theon and Jaime's storylines are in many ways supposed to be thematically tied. Yes, agreed. I do agree. Yes, and then we get the ending passage of the chapter. Your wife may wilt before that. You want your child, I'll expect. Yes, and then we get the ending passage of the chapter. in his bath. Pyrrha clutched the clothes to her breast. The singer tightened a string on his harp.

Little Lou hollowed out a loaf of stale bread to make a trencher, pretending he had not heard. With a trebuchet, Jimmy thought. If his aunt had been there, would she still say Tyrion was Tywin's son? Edmure Tully finally found his voice. I could climb out of this tub and kill you where you stand, Kingslayer. You could try. Jaime waited. When Edmure made no move to rise, he said,

I'll leave you to enjoy your food. Singer, play for our guest whilst he eats. "'You know the song I trust.' "'The one about the rain? "'Ay, my lord, I know it.' "'Edmure seemed to see the man for the first time. "'No, not him.

"'Get him away from me.' "'Why, it's just a song,' said Jamie. "'He cannot have that bad of a voice.' "'I mean, you had that intonation, "'but why, it's just a song, said Jamie. He cannot have that bad of a voice. I mean, you had that intonation, the why it's just a song, said Jamie. I love that because that's such a harsh, dark. I mean, this is dark for Jamie to end on right now, right in Jamie 6. You know, a lot of people think that the very end of Feast, and I do too, I think it's a good turning point for Jamie. But just remembering that he put his big boy pants on here and he's like, all right, the threats are

coming out and gloves are off because not only did he, you know, give it to Edmure straight and say, this is how it is. This is what's going to happen. You have two choices, death or life, man. But also he brought in Tom of Seven Streams and Tom and Edmure have history, as we all might recall, in even as early as a Game of Thrones, Catelyn V, we have the line from Catelyn, another singer had once bedded a girl her brother fancied. He had hated the breed ever since. And then of course, later on in Aria IV, in A Storm of Swords, we have this passage. later on in Aria 4, in A Storm of Swords, we have this passage. Tom overheard him and broke off his song. You're a young fool, Archer. If we go to Riverrun,

it'll only be to collect her ransom. Won't be no time for you to sit aside making bows. Be thankful if you get out with your hide. Lord Hoster was hanging outlaws before you were shaving, and that son of his, a man who hates music, can't be trusted, I always say. It's not music he hates, said Lem. It's you, fool. Well, he has no cause. The wench was willing to make a man of him. Is it my fault he drank too much to do the deed? Lem snorted through his broken nose. Was it you who made a song of it, or some other bloody arse in love with his own voice? I only sang it the once tom complained and who's to say the song was about him it was a song about a fish a floppy fish said on guy laughing so yes this is the singer that wrote the song about edmure's soft dick thought

that was pretty appropriate jamie really knew how to nail it in there you know jamie did his research again on pitchfork yeah and the fact that you know it was like yeah he knows not only about this song but who sung it and like the way that he brings him into the fold it's like no no okay cool i'm gonna go see ed bietelli i have a proposition for him oh you mr tama sevens come along with me i have a job for you maybe you know and that's one of those things where now i don't know if he knew about the floppy fish no yeah but it's still the whole thing of okay you're gonna go and play the reigns of castamere which everyone knows what that means right but then it's like adding insult to injury because now when edmure like notices who it is that's playing that song it's just double double the

pain because it's like oh yeah not only do i have to hear the rains of castamere i have to hear the rains of castamere from the guy who made the song mocking me when you know i couldn't get it up that one time it's pretty insult to injury gonna get it up that one time remember when the one time he did get it up was his wedding when everyone was getting slaughtered and he had no clue? That's not exactly fair.

I mean, I'm just saying it's kind of sad for Edmure that, you know, the one time that he did get it correctly up was maybe a bummer of a time. I mean, listen, unfortunately edmure is just the the guy who is just gonna get shit on yeah and bringing it back to the abomination that uh appeared on our screen for uh for years uh unfortunately the actor who played him he he plays those kind of characters a lot like he was

brutish in rome yeah you know and even in rome he was the real pathetic dude and then he comes in the that other show on on hbo and and now he plays he's playing edmure tully and it's like damn like reading about edmure just like yeah the whole floppy fish thing and everything else has happened with him damn edmure's just a guy with with a really hard life yeah that's for sure and it gets so easier it was going like okay for him at the beginning and now it's just shit but he is he's a versatile actor that guy, what is his name again? Tobias something? Menzies

Tobias Menzies, yeah, because he's also in I haven't gotten past the first season so far, but he's also in Outlander, versatile actor Is he getting punched in the face in that one as well? I believe so He does get punched in the face quite a bit

but also he's a you know in some moments he's a hero who just goes down on women so but in other moments he's a horrible person who's it's complex it's complex i'm not going to spoil the entire premise of the show it's interesting though but yeah and yours had like a difficult hand dealt to him it is insult to injury and finding the singer it's really quite unfortunate some of the other things that i think is are interesting here with this ending there's quite a bit of those lessons you know jamie really hasn't let it go that uh jenna said that tyrian is tywin's son. And that he's, she's like, yeah, I mean, I guess you are too, but not like Tyrion. And there's a lot of emphasis on carrying out your threats in this.

You kind of see it a bit, as Dawn really pointed out, you know, Jamie's like, you know, if I say I'm going to slap you, I'm going to slap you. And he does it. But it continues to be a matter of fandom speculation and debate as to whether or not Jamie would have like trebucheted Edna's child I remember uh prior to recording this episode Donnelly was like yes this is the the episode of the trebuchet right and and that's an I think iconic line for people when it comes to this chapter and the threats that Jamie makes and I do think that there's a difference right between Jamie and Circe compared

to Tyrion and their relationships and emulation of Tywin. Like, Cersei, I don't know, she doesn't really make threats in the same way. She just kind of does things. She's like, whatever, we're just gonna do crazy things. We're just gonna do wild things. And she just does it, right, without a threat to try and get what she wants to some extent. And Jaime here, he ends up mostly freeing Edmure, right, rather than carrying out like Ryman's threat and offers a different path out rather than just like following through on yeah we're gonna hang him he doesn't take any of Brendan Tully's bait either but I think that in many ways shows how he's not like Tywin. Tywin would have been like all right fuck it we're gonna do it

whereas Tyrion is is Tywin with small because he did make a threat to Tywin. He said that if Tywin called Tysha, you know, then the word he used was whore, like one more time, that he's going to shoot him. And Tyrion carried through on that threat. No hesitation. He's like, whatever. I said I was going to do it and I did it.

And that's what makes Tyrion the son of Tywin. But all throughout this chapter, Jaime keeps trying to find another way a way that's uh better and tries to preserve his own honor and the oaths that he made to Catelyn Stark and and the threat isn't very Tywin Lannister-y either um in fact I would say that the construction of it actually kind of and the way that the language sounds reminds me of a different story the construction of the threat and the way that it all builds on each other actually really reminds me for some reason

of the language in Wesley's to the pain speech to Humperdinck in the Princess Bride right down to the interjection of like no you thought that was the twist and that's what was going to make it bad but it's actually this at the end and to remind you all that make it bad but it's actually this at the end and

to remind you all the line goes to the pain needs this if we duel you win death for me if we duel and I win life for you but life on my terms the first thing you'll lose will be your feet below the ankle you will have stumps available to use within 6 months then your hands at the wrist they heal somewhat quicker

5 months is a fair average next your nose no smell of dawn for you followed by your tongue your tongue, deeply cut away, not even a stump left. And then your left eye. And then my right eye, then my ears. And shall we get on with it? The prince said, wrong. Wesley's voice rang across the room. Your ears you keep so that every shriek of every child shall be yours to cherish. Every babe that weeps in fear at your approach every woman that cries dear god what is that thing will reverberate forever with your perfect ears and i i think within the context of that this chapter this actually makes a lot of sense like the way that it's constructed of jamie like detailing like this is how we're gonna tear down your castle and finally we're gonna trebuchet

your baby over the walls of it and like I think it's quite fitting to have that comparison in my opinion because towards the top right like Wesley is Jamie is bluffing despite knowing that he couldn't actually fight Brendan Tully at that moment

especially with his disability I mean we've seen him with Ellen Payne right like it happens quite a few times. And maybe this final threat is a bluff too, or not. Again, matter of much fandom debate. And it's something that Jamie has to learn to do sparingly and wisely, because after a while people are gonna be like, all right, so you can't fucking fight, dude. That's a great point.

Yeah, he has to use this sparingly, because people are gonna start calling him on this shit. And, I mean, I don't know. There's something about the fact that, like, there's all these plants in his party, has to use this sparingly because people are going to start calling him on this shit and i mean i don't know there's something about the fact that like there's all these plants in his party like wrath the sweetling is not a lannister he goes where the food and money is right he goes where the gold is like he's not a lannister crony he's just there like a carrion crow above the body and a feast for crows some yeah exactly a feast for crows. Yeah, exactly. A feast for crows. And Tom of Seven Streams being here,

we already know he leaks info because Ryman gets hanged immediately after this on the road, right? So Tom of Seven Streams probably just hanged around, no pun intended, and got a bunch of Lannister war operating information. He knows where Jaime is sending his parties. So I know a lot of people believe there's going to be a Red Wedding 2.0. I'm sure there's going to be some sort of similar event. I'm not sure if that's what it will be, you know, obviously,

but it'll be that kind of event. It'll be some sort of wedding probably for Davin and it'll be the Red Wedding 2.0 and all the plans for it. If of seven streams is hanging around in jamie's plot he's gonna hear all the planning going on for all this and take all that planning and go tell the brotherhood and guess where jamie goes in a dance with dragons like off to meet his fate he did this to himself while he was trying to keep that peace there's a lot of secret secret singers in these two books this manse yes that's true able yeah so you know what no no more uh no more inviting any singers anywhere treacherous bastards yeah meridian oh meridian yeah oh yeah that guy sucks too they all suck you're right i kind of like Thomas Evans' dreams.

I'm not going to lie. He's all right. He's okay. He's all right. I'm trying to think of singers that I like in this story. Nope. Not really. They don't exist.

Well, what do you think, Don Willie? Jamie Sixx. Love the chapter. the juxtaposition that this put Jamie in in terms of him trying to rehab his image in the eyes of non-Lannister people but at the end of the day basically

saying it's like you know what no they already have their image of me I basically have to reinforce that now because that's the only way to get them to cooperate and and actually get peace it's like i was trying to get peace by trying to appeal to people's self-interest but apparently that doesn't work even even if you hand them the best case scenario for them if they don't like you and they have a particular bias against you it's like i will find

and since you're not going to listen to what most people would consider to be reason now you're just you're gonna force me to be the guy that you think i am like tyrian says at his trial you know wish i was half the monster you all think i am and he says fine i'll be the monster you think i am yeah you know jamie was ultimately left with no choice because the two people that he had to appeal to in order to make this work were both like, well, okay, it's not that Edmure didn't necessarily rebuff what he was proposed. But the fact is he even said, well, what if I say no? It's like, okay, fine. Is this what we're doing right now?

Like, you're already captive what is it gonna win you to say no but fine since since you want to hear what the alternative is if you say no here's the alternative yeah i kill everybody in the castle and yes it might take a while since it's a siege your wife's not in the castle with you. You'll want to meet your son since you have no kids right now. So I'll just make sure to bring him here and fling him over the walls with a trebuchet. I mean, he's in his bathtub. He's naked. Like, that's pretty, like, you have him.

You know, like, there's, sorry, little fish. You're not going anywhere. But not only is he naked in his bathtub he's naked in his bathtub and there are witnesses hearing the horrible things that will supposedly happen to everyone sitting in the castle and then hearing hearing that jamie is planning on possibly flinging a newborn baby over the walls of the castle via a trebuchet. Yeah. Like, you don't get more ruthless than that when it comes to things, and that's part of the reason why, again, that abomination that we experienced this makes it a lot more ruthless because it's not

him kowtowing to i just want to get back to cersei you know like no like this is just like look i'm trying to give you something worth having i'm trying to help you save face to a certain extent just give me the damn castle tell your men to you know to stop fighting and things can go back to status quo as they were pretty much before all of this started and i mean at least that's the way that jamie see obviously it's not status quo if the Freys are now in control of the Twins and Riverrun, and also are Lord Paramount

of Trident. So, that isn't status quo for him, but it's like, well, the other option is you fight against me. We have more soldiers than you. We ultimately will have more provisions. And we're going to make this as difficult as we possibly can.

And not only are we killing everybody, but I'm going to make you suffer in a way that you never even thought about suffering before. It's interesting the way that you're talking about. They're leaning into a lot of that reputation that precedes the Lannisters. Whether or not, like, Jaime would do it, he's using it, it's a tool, right? And you really start to see the Lannisters do that and try to wield that. Cersei hasn't quite figured out how to do that other than as a royal, and she tries to wield it over her own family, but she struggles to do so with the Tyrells,

because they they of course have their own reputation and strength that they can lean on but tyrian learns to do it and and so does jamie and just for good or bad utilizing the darker parts of their reputation to their advantage even even if the outcomes could be arguably good, we haven't quite seen that yet. And so you kind of have to question the means, etc. Yeah. Sink or swim, right? Adapt or die. And Tyrion obviously has to adapt to a new setting, new environment, new people, which some would argue it feels like he's been building up towards that.

Cersei obviously is not going to survive. There is no version of this story where Cersei survives. And I think everybody knows that. That's kind of why you got to love the hater, right? Those chapters are freaking nuts because you're like, you are crazy and you're going to die someday. And it's a little sad in the end, it's a little pathetic. And Jaime is the in-between of these two. Where does he go, right? And I think that's something I personally am really excited to continue exploring with you, Eliana, and with Don Willie

when the time allows for it, absolutely. And yeah, that's Jaime 6, right? And A Feast for Crows. We have one more left after this. And A Feast for Crows. Don Willie, did you cover this chapter with the Hypeswatch?

We did 26 rereads. This may have been one of them. If not, this might be one that maybe we, you know, cover it as part of the comeback we have you guys on. Hey, we would love to. Well, we hope we can have you on again

sometime in the future. As you know, our POVs do not go chapter to chapter. They go POV chapter to POV chapter. So you might have to wait to get a good one that you want next. But we'll chat about it off air for sure. Yeah, listen, this has been an absolutely amazing experience. And I'm still amazed at this point that people want to hear me speak at all. Well, we do.

Not really. You're one of the first people to invite me into the fandom and to guest on things, so don't even. Yeah, we were excited to have you on. Absolutely. You've been in this game making stuff longer. Listen, I'm excited to be here. Thank you very much for having

me. You guys are doing great work for the fandom out there. You are much needed. So thank you for the work you've been doing to keep this fandom alive. We love you too, Don Willie. Tell everyone where they can find you on the internet,

your Twitter, your YouTube, everything. Let them know one more time so that we where they can find you on the internet, your Twitter, your YouTube, everything. Let them know one more time so that we make sure they find ya. Alright, so you can find me on my channel on YouTube Adon of Ice and Fire. Also, you can find me on the Hypeswatch.

If you are into Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D., tune in to my friend Darren Jake's channel known as D's Reviews, D apostrophe S Reviews, Friday nights, or, you know, catch it when you can. Fans of S.H.I.E.L.D. As far as on Twitter, you can find me at IDonWillie, or I changed it recently. I got my old name back. I got the name that I should have had all this time yeah don willie aka real azura hype aka salt king beautiful the salt king i love it yeah the salt must still be spread it It must flow. It must flow.

It's interesting. You gotta read Dune, apparently. Yeah, we gotta get you there. Spices that gotta flow. We can do it together. I keep saying I'm gonna read it, so actually don't depend on me. I keep saying I'm gonna

read, then I'm like, what if I read this other thing instead? I'm undependable. Well, you know what? I'll have to read then I'm like what if I read this other thing instead I'm undependable well you know what I'll have to get on Dune alright I'll hold you to that I would love you to read Dune and I'd love to chat about it with you I'm definitely down for that well make sure you tune in next week

where we will have our friend Kristen who moderates the huge A Song of Ice and Fire Facebook group and she has written about Jamie and Brienne on her Tumblr. Tons of meta there. So we will be linking that in the future. As always, you can find us on social media at Girls Gone Canon on Twitter, C-A-N-O-N,

or at girlsgonecanon at gmail.com, where you too can send us a quick email about the episode, questions, comments, or maybe you want to send us your version of a Girls Gone Canon episode. We've still only received one. Just saying. We've only received one, and it's a His Dark Materials episode, if you too would

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$5 and up tier, the stranger tier. This month, we began our coverage on his dark materials, books of dust. Number one, LaBelle sausage, LaBelle Sauvage,

Aliana's favorite, my favorite. Can't wait to continue covering that with you. Next month, we will likely be covering something, a song of ice and fire, like the three cities, or maybe something else. We with you. Next month, we will likely be covering something A Song of Ice and Fire, like The Three Cities, or maybe something else. We'll see. As always, I have

been one of your hosts, Chloe. And I've been another one of your hosts, Ileana. Thank you, Todd Willey, for joining us once more, aka, what was it? I Hate Your Pants? Is that your name? Uh, that was the D&D one. Yeah, that was the D&D.

See? Nerd cred, come on. Real nerds play D&D. But yeah, you know, aka I Hate Your Pants, aka Azorah Hype, aka The Salt King, aka all the things.

He's a many-faced god. Yeah, I guess. Damn. all the things. He's a many-faced god. Yeah, I guess. All these names. Thanks again, Don Willie, and we will talk to you guys soon.