Girls Gone Canon Cast - ASOIAF Episode 95 - AFFC Jaime VII Featuring Kristin Treado

Episode Date: July 10, 2020

In Jaime's final Feast chapter, he does a lot: He gives Tom O' Sevens two promotions, has a crazy dream, and burns things down -- particularly some figurative bridges.  Kristin's Tumblr: https://krtmd.tumblr.com/  Kristin's Essay on the three-fold reveal: https://krtmd.tumblr.com/post/98669896272/the-third-time-is-the-charm-or-why-jaime-and?fbclid=IwAR0RX_PVG-ijSofJOJPLHRJtkRjtg76RT4Q6GbaitBY9mxY5s9hD38-qQWs ASOIAF Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2204774465/ Kristin's Twitter: https://twitter.com/krtmd The three-fold reveal: https://web.archive.org/web/20150310092403/http://universe.suvudu.com/q-and-a/anne-groell Melanie, Lot 7's essay, "Silenced Women in ASOIAF": https://melanielotseven.wordpress.com/2018/05/30/silenced-women-in-asoiaf/ --- Eliana's twitter: https://twitter.com/arhythmetric Eliana's reddit account: https://www.reddit.com/user/glass_table_girl Eliana's blog: https://themanyfacedblog.wordpress.com/ Chloe's twitter: https://twitter.com/liesandarbor Chloe's blog: www.liesandarborgold.com Intro by Anton Langhage; Background music by PeriTune

Hello and welcome to Girls Gone Canon, A Song of Ice and Fire, Episode 95, of Feast for Crows Jamie7 featuring our good friend Kristen. I am one of your hosts, Chloe. And I am another one of your hosts, Eliana. Yes, today once more we have another another one of your hosts again. It's Kristen whom some of you may know as KRT on some other platforms, who's joining us as one of the moderators of the Asanga Vice and Fire group, but also a couple of other things. I'll let Kristen talk about it, but she's a big time Jamie fan. Like the Jamie fan. Hi, this is Kristen. Trito, for those of you who do know me, and go, how do you say your last name? I am one of the moderators, admins at the big Facebook group that's called A Song of Ice and Fire.

And I've been doing that a long time. Maybe five or six years, something like that. It was sort of an accident where, um, as most things in a fandom are where I showed up and I, I lurked for a really long time and the group wasn't private then. So I didn't say anything because I don't know if like in those days, Facebook was one of those things where like, if you posted in a public group, anybody on your timeline could see it. yeah yeah oh yeah and I didn't want like you know my cousin to be like what is she talking about so I just lurked for a really long time and

then the group went private and then I started talking and when they realized that I wasn't gonna shut up they made me an admin at that in time, the group was like 10,000 people. And I checked this morning, and it's about 66,000 people who are in the group. That's a lot of people. Yeah, it is. The most it's ever been was like a little over 70,000. was like a little over 70,000 like when the show was crazy town popular and airing and people were coming to talk about the show but obviously you know things calm down people lose interest so the group is currently shrinking a little bit and I think that's understandable given that we don't

have a book yeah and you know I do not envy your task as a moderator during that Game of Thrones season spike. That had to have been an intense time, an intense time. Yeah, it can be. And especially if people, we have a very high expectation of how we think people should behave in the group. And so, you know, when people don't want to do that, People should behave in the group. And so, you know, when people don't want to do that, we have maybe even a heavy-handed reputation. But the idea is to make it a place where people can feel like it's a safe place to be and can talk about stuff without being harassed like they are in other parts of the Internet.

So I do like that aspect of it. And it's a good community. We've worked really hard at it and it's probably like I said to you earlier but no one heard it but you two I probably wouldn't be on Facebook anymore if it weren't for this group so

a redeeming factor all my friends in the fandom I've made through that group essentially or an offshoot of that group that's probably how he met Jeff and I met Eliana through Jeff and Balticon yeah that was a fateful year yes back when the show that these books are based off of was airing yes and it was a good time and it was really lovely to meet all these people that I, you know, have.

I feel you feel like you know them, but to meet them in person, that kind of thing. So unfortunately, I haven't had an opportunity to meet Chloe in person yet, but that'll change. You know, I think I'm saving the best for last. You know, KRT, I'm just I'm here when we meet. It's going to be what it's going to be Worldcon probably. Yes. It's going to be me and you at Worldcon 21. Yes. It's going to happen

Eliana. It's going to happen. I mean, I really hope so. It has to happen. I've got big plans for everyone, you know? Yeah. Me too. I have lots of beers to drink. I have lots of bullshitting to do. Lots of shit to talk. I feel like it beers to drink. I have lots of bullshitting to do.

Lots of shit to talk. You know, I feel like it has to happen. I feel that way too. It's definitely a highlight. Maybe we'll even have a book. What if we have a book? What if we have a book? Sometimes it's nice to hope.

Okay. I know everybody is really mad all the time about like Jon Snow's real name or if George is going to finish his book or whatever they're mad about right now. But I personally sometimes sit there and I'm like, Oh, I think this book is going to be just delightful when it happens. So sometimes I just think that's a nice thought to have, you know, like, what if we have a book, we could have a book and it could be great. Yeah. I still have hope. You know, I know a lot of people don't or, you know, think it'll never happen, but I have hope and I know it'll be good. I pick up, you know, I hadn't read Feast in a little while and I picked it up and I was like, this book is so good.

I know. You know, it's my favorite. Yeah, Feast is super good. It's my favorite too, yeah. It's super good. It's my favorite, too, yeah. It's so detailed, and it's just, like, all this plotting, which we're about to get into. There's so much plotting that's kind of slowly popping off. Yes. And, you know, I think it gets a bad rap because people didn't like it after Storm or whatever, but...

Mm-hmm. You gotta pick up the pieces after Storm. Come on, now. Yes. but you gotta pick up the pieces after storm come on now yes well we're really excited to have you on kristen you are as we said the jamie fan i know you don't do much on your tumblr anymore but i know you did have some good jamie meta at a few points on your tumblr if you have any you want people to come see totally let us know and we'll link them below but tell us about your affinity and love for Jamie in the meantime that's kind of it's kind of funny because I've told this story before because you know everybody talks about maybe the first time

they read the book or or maybe even the first time they watched the show where the moment you know they're hooked to the moment that Jamie pushes Bran out the window and that's like they didn't realize what was happening or like that was the moment that hooked them and for me I was like I have to know why this person did this like I was fascinated by Jamie from that moment forward why would he do that who is this character and i i also joke that i like my uh fictional men dark and damaged and so i was just hooked from that moment to like why would he do this when are we going to find out and of course when he be you know when he becomes a point of view character and then i was like i knew i knew he was better than he was letting on. I knew Ned wasn't totally right.

Yeah, it was just a fictional love affair with a character from the get-go. And I'm fascinated by him. And of course, I love Brienne. And I will make no, I'll make no apologies that I'm a brainy shipper. And I don't think they're going gonna go off into the sunset together but I enjoyed that the relationship there and what she triggers in him and all that kind of stuff so and I mean of course Jamie is one of the most interesting characters in A Song of Ice and Fire and I think that's something we've been saying from the beginning especially in terms of how he's he is really pivotal to everything and like you said, wanting to know what's going on in his head. And sadly though, we are coming towards the end

of the existing Jamie chapters. As we were discussing, maybe one day we'll get another book and therefore more Jamie chapters and finally figure out what happens between him and the Lady Stoneheart showdown. But next week we'll be discussing all that with our wrap up of Jaime's storyline in

Feast as well as covering the single A Dance with Dragons Jaime chapter and then wrapping up on his dance storyline which is just that one chapter but Eliana what are we going to do after that

we will also be answering the backlog of questions and tweets that we keep saying we're gonna get to next week is like the Jamie week is what we're saying yeah we're fulfilling those oaths next week is the oath keeper episode oh my god uh well after Jamie ends I know we have a lot of people sitting around asking, who could it be? Who could the girls be covering next? We are covering Aries Oakheart. Jon Snow. Oh my god.

We're going back to Jon Snow, chefs. We are Benjamin Buttoning this whole goddamn operation and we're going back to Ned. No, I'm just kidding. Actually, Ned would be a really interesting POV to revisit after Jamie, but regardless. Yes, regardless, we are going to read Ares Oakheart's chapter. Yes, he is a different White Knight directly involved in the care of Jamie's daughter, Myrcella, actually. And only one chapter, so we will have another POV announcement yet to come. And maybe another. Mayhaps another. Yes, who knows?

One after another. The winds of winter announced. Oh my god. It could come out. But yeah, so I think a lot of you can probably see how we decided to get to Ari's Oakheart after Jamie thought it'd be a fun way to break up

all the longer POVs that we've been doing the past few months and weeks and talk about another white knight who's like but what if I broke my vows for sex nothing gets anyone hotter than makes them want to break their vows more than women who want to become queen but actually i can see it i see the appeal yeah and i'm excited to get

back to some dorn right just a little bit uh it's been a hot minute we haven't been back to dorn in a second and i don't know some of the politics are good some some of the backstory, and I think especially after reading Jamie all the way through, there's a lot of Dorne politics that are very interesting from Ares Oakhart's lens, right? As a Kingsguard, and of course, as someone from the Reach, who doesn't really have probably the best feeling about being in Dorne, because he's racist. Yeah. He doesn't think he is.

He's like, hmm, my girlfriend's girlfriend's Tordish. It's okay. Jaime's girlfriend is his sister. Yeah. But before we get into all that, we have this Jaime chapter that we gotta get through, and of course, our lightning round prior to that. Starting off

with, yeah, Jaime's sister Cersei IX. Cersei aspires to get what she wants at all costs. Even if it means banging a kettle black. The princess in the tower, Arianne, is punished for conspiring against her father's wishes,

but has a huge reveal toward chapter's end of vengeance, justice, fire, and blood. We have Alayne too. Lord Baelish also gives a huge reveal. His plans for Alayne Stone to transform back into Sansa

and become the Queen in the North. Or maybe elsewhere? Brienne VIII. Brienne faces judgment from Mother Merciless and screams out a word to save her and her companion's life. Jamie's dick! Just kidding, it's sword.

But also, deep down inside... Whoa. I gotta rethink my wording! I gotta rethink it! Sorry, but also somewhere in her heart, Jamie's dick. Somewhere in some sort of depth whether shallow or deep this is why aliana doesn't read these before you get gems like this that brings us to cersei tent

cersei scheming collapses in on her as she sends a raven for her one last hope. Come at once. Help me. Save me. I need you as I've never needed you before. I love you. I love you. I love you. Come at once. Thrice? All those I love you's. Jamie 7

overview. Put this in the fire. Bow bow bow bow. Bow bow bow bow. Bow bow bow bow. Burn it up. Burn it up. Yeah. That's what Eamon Frey feels right now because he is angry. Spittle is flying off

of his face. He's yelling about taking off someone's head. He's like, I own this place now by the king's own decree. And Jenna's like, yes, Eamon. Everyone knows. Jaime knows. All right. The king also knows about the decree. So does Edmure.

So do the stable boys. Because you won't shut the fuck up about it. And I just feel like Eamon Frey in this opening has that big, like, energy of the thing that Tywin was condemning, right? Like, of any man who must say, I am king. And it's very much damning for Eamon here. Oh, yeah, absolutely. king and it's very much uh damning for emin here oh yeah absolutely and in cersei 10 right before this uh when she's in the sept of balor dealing with the high septon she has so many moments that speak right into this she has the moment where he says you spoke with the queen and she thinks

she resisted the urge to say i am the queen she. She follows the High Septon later. Cersei could feel the eyes of the Seven staring at her, eyes of jade and malachite and onyx, and a sudden shiver of fear went through her, cold as ice. I am the queen, she told herself, Lord Tywin's daughter. Reluctantly, she followed. And of course, later when she's finally captured by the Faith, she finally shouts, I am the queen. I'll have your heads for this. I'll have all your heads. Let me pass.

So definitely some parallels with the pages we just ended just a few pages ago. He's yelling, of course, because the Blackfish escaped Riverrun when Edmure surrendered his castle. So Edmure, of course, is using the loophole that he was asked to surrender the castle not the black fish jamie is unamused shocker and i i when i was reading this chapter to get ready i was really struck by this and i i had not i i'd either forgotten it or but it hit me you know lord emin rubbed his mouth his hand came away red and slimy from the sour leaf to be sure river run is mine and no man shall ever take it from me um i just that hit me i hadn't considered it before yeah eliana and i were actually speaking about this offline and i didn't really think about the no man shall take the ever take it

from me either but it really feels like crazy red wedding 2.0 foreshadowing in general and i think it's got to be led either by aria or if we're talking lady stoneheart either way there's foreshadowing for both but every single thing about this is like brotherhood without banners is totally in on this there's spies in every corner jamie doesn't even realize it. And there's this line in the Brienne chapter right before this death and guest right muttered long Jane Heddle. They don't mean so much as they used to neither one. And it kind of makes me think that lordship doesn't mean the same either. They're about to find out right like that paper shield as Ned's was torn in half is about to be torn in half yeah definitely I think the Lady Stoneheart thing is one

big contender and same as you Kristen this stood out to me especially you know there's been discussion of similar things said about Gregor Clegane right sorry I'm sorry Sir Robert Strong and how

I think a similar idea of no living man can take him or something like that and of course it feels like in a way similar to the I am no man scene in Lord of the Rings and I don't know

if Lady Stoneheart's a strong contender of course I think Sansa Stark is one, too, having that claim on the Tully name. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, for Endgame, absolutely. You know, I'm a strong yeller when it comes to saying, I think Sansa might control more than the North. We'll see. I guess we need another book, man.

That's really what we need. So no one's been able to find the black fish. Edmure says, well, fish swim, even black ones. I love that line. Jamie, who has been really hand-heavy lately, thinks about smacking him across the face like every other man who's gotten in his way he threatens him with the obliques beneath casterly rock edmure says jamie gave him his word he'd be treated per his rank and jamie's like yeah many noble guys have died down there before he did swim said edmure solemnly he had the same blue eyes as the sister catlin and jamie saw the same loathing there that he'd once seen in hers. We raised the portcullis on the water gate, not all the way, just three feet or

so, enough to have a gap under the water, though the gate still appeared to be closed. My uncle is a strong swimmer, and after dark he pulled himself beneath the spikes. My favorite thing when going through this paragraph is that of course Jamieie saw the same eye color in edmure like why are you looking at sibling eye color jamie what's going on there uh no but joking aside there is something really interesting about edmure and emin and their presence in this chapter edmure specifically is dressed up really lordly, and we get this passage that he still looks more lordly than Emin, that he's wearing a doublet of red wool with a leaping trout on his chest, his boots are black, his breeches blue,

his auburn hair washed and barbered, his red beard neatly trimmed. Kind of reminds me a little bit of Sansa choosing the Tully dress in the Eyrie, but of course being bade to change out of it because she looked a little too Tully. But comparing this to Cersei's last chapter and what she was wearing beneath the Iron Throne before she took off to Baelor, to Baelor's Sept. Cersei sat beneath the Iron Throne, clad in green silk and golden lace. Tell His High Holiness we are vexed with him. He presumes too much. Emeralds glittered on her fingers and in her golden hair. The eyes of court and city were upon her, and she meant for them to see Lord Tywin's daughter. By the time this mummer's

farce was done, they would know they had but one true queen. So there's a really strong focus in both of these chapters on being lordly and color and Edmure is set up as the person they need to be in control but the Lannister phrase would obviously be puppet ruling with Eamon with his fake shield they just want him to shut up for a while obviously right like it works in comparison to his prattling about being the lord when the blackfish escaped overnight who was really the lord last night Eamon Frey? Cersei, of course, thinks she's in charge, as we know throughout these chapters, and

in Cersei 10, I mean, I'd argue she found out the truth that she is also kind of a puppet by the chapter's end in her own chains. Definitely. You called out Jaime looking at Edmure's eyes, and I that's something that stuck out to me again you

know especially as we keep talking about how yeah they're back at Riverrun again and it reminds me of like once more the guilt he feels towards his vows to Catelyn which of course we're like reminded of two chapters before in Brienne's last chapter and seeing that you know in Edmure again those power positions are reversed I also kind of love that as you that you know in Edmure again those power positions are reversed I also kind of love that as you said Jaime thinks that Edmure looks much more like a lord and I I'm glad that Edmure was like what if I wore my Tully colors that'd be fun good statement but there's all these things in the story like who looks like they should be a lord or a king and or holding power and then how they then hold themselves and i

think it's noteworthy to me that jamie makes that observation considering that like of all the people right we start off this entire story with john looking at jamie being like that's what a king should look like and so so it's remarkable to me that jamie, yeah, Edmure looks pretty lordly here, even after his imprisonment. And it also reminds me of another line from Catlin way back when we're just starting to get into Jamie's head before we get his chapters during his own imprisonment and what he still retains of his pride and stature where Catelyn thinks his unwashed hair fell to his shoulders and ropes and tangles the clothes were rotting on his body his face was pale and wasted and even so the power and the beauty of the man were still apparent

that's a really great comparison especially as we kind of close in on this loop of you know Brienne's chapter ending with her choosing sword and of course him actually swearing the vows and choosing the sword and bringing it right back to Cat 7 in Clash I mean

Jamie is a changed man yeah but it's hard to tell people and just be like yo I've changed when you're over here threatening the family and yeah I mean he doesn't really have a good presence right to go against he needs better pr

maybe i mean it's hard and i think that's something that we discussed a lot last episode with don willie right like i mean the way that he's going to get things done is by leaning into a lot of what the lannister strategy has been a lot of this time right which is like intimidate and i mean that's a strategy for a lot of people in general edmure had waited most of the day to start the changeover and in the confusion of everything no one realized the blackfish brendan toli was gone until the next morning jamie now gazes out at the river thinking the blackfish is likely 10 leagues downstream damn can he like really swim 10 leagues but anyway regardless there's this line that i wanted to call out i just thought it was kind of cute and fun where they think if reddicker

or you or any of their men heard a splash they would put it down to a turtle or a trout and it is in fact a trout because that's the sigil of house tully for brendan tully but also i just thought it was kind of funny because of the turtles i was like oh is it, is it an Estermod joke? And I don't think it is. I think George R. R. Martin just really likes turtles, as we all know. I just like this line. Turtles are trouts. Love it. Eamon Frey is whining about Jaime finding Brendan

and Jaime says he'll be found, but he doesn't necessarily think he's correct in saying so. He had sent Adam R. Brandon, Dermot of the Rainwood, out to investigate the riversides and considered sending Piper in Vance, although they would likely help Brendan rather than Jamie. Emmon is worried that Brendan will take his castle back, but Jamie's left him with a garrison of 200, and Jamie says he doubts the Blackfish will be coming back. But, I mean, Jamie's smarter than

that in his internal dialogue. You know, he says, he thinks to himself, he knows that, you know, the Blackfish means to continue the fight. And it could be at the head of a bunch of outlaws. and Jamie then questions Edmure once more, poking for more information. Edmure waxes about his father, as they are currently in Hoster Tully's solar. This was my father's solar, said Tully. He ruled the riverlands from here. Wisely and well, he liked to sit beside that window. The light was good there, and whenever he looked up from his work, he could see the river. When his eyes were tired, he would have Cat read to him. Littlefinger and I built a castle out of wooden blocks once, there beside the door.

You will never know how sick it makes me to see you in this room, Kingslayer. You will never know how much I despise you. He was wrong about that. I've been despised by better men than you, Edmure. Jaime called for a guard. Take his lordship back to his tower and see that he's fed. The Lord of Riverrun went silently. In the morning, the plan was to send Edmure west.

Ser Forley Prestor would command 100 men and 20 good knights. Maybe double that, Jaime thinks. I just like that in this scene, you know, a lot of the insults that Jamie's loving at Edmure feel very much like the kinds of insults that Jamie was probably on the receiving end of many times before in terms of being like, I don't know, better men than you have said stuff like that to me, Jamie, or better men than you have beaten me, things like that. While thinking of that, I'm suddenly remembering again, something that we had discussed before as brindan blackfish escapes and it kind of reminds me again of some of those parallels between the way that people saw

the blackfish as a legend and one of those older heroes right and and barriston selmy and how barriston selmy right just made his own escape. And everyone's like, shit, we lost Barristan Selmy? And now they're like, damn it, we lost the Blackfish? And same energy. It's kind of like the one thing they never seem to get, right? Like, why do these rebellions keep living on? What are we missing? The humanity of it all, purely.

The heroes, the figureheads, right right yeah why robert was so useful but what's also useful is this map of the trident that they've got out against the desk trying to figure out where brendan would go then they're interrupted by sybil spicer and queen jane westerling one of our queens he doesn't think she looks dangerous this girl who cost rob stark everything he's like i don't know she's got narrow hips small breasts willowy she's pretty enough for a child we uh okay george r martin we get it you're a boobs guy whatever brown doe eyes chestnut curls and she's he's like i don't know she's probably no more than 15 or 16 and not a girl to lose a kingdom for jamie thinks which i don't know gives me the same vibes as the idea of what happened in robert's rebellion even though robert's rebellion

was not built on a lie it has totally big liana vibes right like we have that line is early as uttered one back in the game of thrones liana had only been 16 a child woman of surpassing loveliness um i mean that's 16 dude gray eyes dark hair flat chested long face slim body kevin lannister says in the epilogue in dance that she had a wild beauty but but she was a kid, you know? Yeah. Same with Jane. She's still a kid, which is kind of, I guess, what makes this all the sadder, right? They're all kids.

Well, I was just thinking as we were talking about this, about, I mean, it's kind of funny that Jamie's, like, criticizing Rob's love choices I mean yeah true right who are you to judge man and also you know he's the guy who says we don't get to choose who we love basically so it's just funny to me it's very he looks at her and he and obviously he he's looking at her on hindsight, right? Like, holy fuck, Rob. Sorry. You know, Rob lost everything for this girl. But I mean, maybe he's got a little of that comparison to Cersei because he does that with all women. Do you know what I mean? He compares all women to Cersei.

But again, he's starting to see that Cersei isn't the prize. She seems to be by her outward appearance. And yet he's still judging Jane by what she looks like, not maybe what Rob felt about her. That's a great call out because especially in this next passage, right? Like we see how passionate Jane is about Rob, even in the face of I mean, this is kind of big moment we're we're getting that reveal that Jane's kind of a honeypot right that she was used as something to doom the young wolf uh and her mom was in on it her mom was totally fine with it Jane's face is puffy and she has a scab on her forehead and we get this passage between her jamie and her mother what happened there he asked her the girl turned her head away it is nothing insisted her mother

a stern-faced woman in a gown of green velvet a necklace of golden seashells looped about her long thin neck she would not give up the little crown the rebel gave her and when i tried to take it from her head the willful child fought me it was mine jane sobbed you had no right rob had it made for me i loved him really convincing aliana thanks really're being sarcastic or not. No, I'm being real. I'm very sad. It is. It is sad. Yeah. Her crown.

And, you know, something about that necklace of golden seashells looped about her long, thin neck. Why is he staring at that neck, ladies? Yep. That kind of stood out to me. I was like, hmm, golden seashells.

And essentially a chain about her neck. For hands of gold. Oh, I get it now. Give me a second. Sorry, everyone. I'm behind. Not in the recording, just in my head.

The usual, oh no Jamie steps between Sybil though and Jane before Sybil can smack her daughter good, and warns her that he won't be taking any of that bullshit from her he commands them to sit down and offers wine the girl does not answer and the mother declines jamie apologizes for their

loss and then just asks if jane is carrying rob's child and then jane bursts out crying attempting to leave the room but the guard at the door seizes her civil answers she is not jamie's lord father bitter to make certain of that hey speaking of lord fathers giving uh abortificence to young girls not just you know lady mothers sybil spicer but also uh hoster toli i thought this was a really interesting front of the chapter because not so different from taiwan in this regard right selling your daughters for swords and glory, even if it's for the good guy's cause, still means you sold your kids off. And it kind of brings me back to like, oh, what's that guy's name? The redheaded dude, the free folk guy that sells his kids off to Selyse. Yeah, that guy, bootlicker. Anyways, this chapter starts with

Edmure idolizing his father in the solar. Much like we see the Lannisters do, right? Tyrion in the same solar his father spent so much time in in King's Landing. Jaime as well now here. It's offset, though, with Jaime learning the truth of Jane Westerling, whose fate is not wholly dissimilar to Lysa Tully, who Hoster had seated next to Jaime at every single dinner, right, when he visited Riverrun. The chapter, of course, is bookended with the truth, whether it's Jamie's subconscious messaging, or if it's really his mother, uh, spooky, the truth of what Tywin wanted for them,

and how far they really fell from this vision. I thought that Edmure idolizing his father in that solar was something interesting to add to this as we learn about Jane's fate. It's interesting that what you talk about with Liza and Hoster and aborting children or preventing pregnancies against their will happening in the same, maybe even in the same room, right? Where they're having this conversation, the same place where hosta tully would have plotted this it makes me angry at all these parents who do these horrible things to their children like they're pawns yeah absolutely and it's especially sad because sybil spicer right

is is reinflicting that and that's something it's this horrible thing that keeps happening right that women and girls have such little autonomy over their bodies even their parents and other people in general feel like they can just take that control and inflict traumatic things onto them yeah that is kind of a tragedy of jane and i know she's probably going to be a main character in the prologue for the winds of Winter from all the different pieces of juicy gossip we know. I'm sure the focus will be very much on her because as we know, as we go on in the chapter, when she's to leave, she's to be very highly protected. And we will talk about that for sure. Jaime here, though, dismisses Jane. He turns back to his conversation with Sibyl. He asks what, beyond the pardons that they've already been granted, they want from the

Lannisters. She recants Tywin's promises. Worthy marriages for Jane and her sister. Lords and heirs, not knights or younger sons. Jaime begins to think on the Westerling and Spicer history. Sybil was a Spicer from upjumped merchants. Her grandmother was some sort of half-mad witch from the east. So in the last Cersei chapter, we don't see a lot of this, but the second to last Cersei chapter, which comes right after Jaime 6, was Cersei 9, and she has a nightmare that reinforces Eliana's favorite prophecy. It's all right. I'm not as mad as like I was. I'm not like as against it as i was before it's like there are things i think you've you know that's personal growth you maybe are on a path to

humanization as well just like jb laster i mean i stand by all the things that i've said before regarding it in circe all the things that uh the prophecy brings out in her already inherent in her character but whatever oh yeah no i mean it was far too freaking late for circe um so she thinks about maggie the frog of course and she speaks with taina of myr about it she says tyrian's the valen. Do you use that word in Myr? It's High Valyrian. It means little brother. She had asked Septa Serenella about the word after Malara had drowned. Tyena took her hand and stroked it. This was a hateful woman, old and sick and ugly. You were young and beautiful, full of life and pride. She lived in Lannisport, you said, so she would have known of

the dwarf and how he killed your lady mother this creature dared not strike you because of who you were so she sought to wound you with her viper's tongue i think that this nightmare and her waking you know to taina of mirror and taina comforting her soothing her saying oh she she sought to wound you with her viper's tongue um which we talked a little bit in our episode about mere for patrons for the free cities about how tyena might not have pure motives right she uh might not actually be team cersei after all as we know her and her husband fled as soon as cersei was captured and she got out so interesting to think on and definitely something that's

reflected in this chapter that it's coming up once more that Jaime's like, huh? Yeah, that one time that one chick. That's interesting. Wasn't she some sort of witch? Hmm. But yet Cersei's over there thinking, oh, she was. I also feel like, side note, Tana Merriweather, while everything we know that everything she's saying here is bullshit. We're just like, I don't know. There's all the other parts of the prophecy that came true. But Tina Merriweather, great person to have when you're going through a breakup, I think, you know, or someone like when when someone rogs you. Great person to cheer you on.

Like, yeah, totally. You're beautiful. You're amazing. They're all terrible. Yeah, totally. You're beautiful. You're amazing. They're all terrible. Anyways, Jamie thinks about, once again,

you know, in the context of the history of the Westerlings and the Spicers, that the Westerlings were poor, which could explain very much why they sought this marriage with the Spicers. And it's something that we've talked about a bit, not just in those Free Cities episodes we were

discussing but also in the chapters analyzing Sons and the Veil, especially in some of those Winds of Winter chapters released about Elaine. When it comes to this rising merchant class within the story, that hasn't

been explored fully but this whole new money idea is definitely something that's going on and we're seeing a lot of the tensions between that new money versus the old money or blood and power, right? The prestigious names rising in here too. It's something that the Freys clearly have always sort of had a chip on their shoulder about

and we're seeing it here with the Spicers who I think it is significant that they're named that, right? Because it's quite interesting that in the Winds of Lane chapter where we learn that, oh, that, right? Because it's quite interesting that in the Wins Elaine chapter where we learn that, oh, yeah, Harry the Air, he's got a couple of bastards already. And one of them, the mother is named Saffron and comes from a spice merchant family.

Like, I don't think you just get named Spicer for like no reason. I don't think it's the same family. I'm just saying, you know, a lot of people sell spices. Food's great. And it's likely going to be important as the Free Cities in general become more integrated in the story where they have that big merchant class. And of course, we have a very powerful merchant, Illyrio, who's the financial backer for Aegon's King-cidential campaign. And, of course, we have mention of Littlefinger later when it comes to this new money story, right? And him not having a lot of those connections in some way,

considering how George R. R. Martin has said that he was very inspired by the Great Gatsby when developing Littlefinger. So. Anyway. In an ordinary world, where, you know, the Westerlings, especially because Sybil Spicer didn't commit some ultimate betrayal to climb the social ladder, the Westerlings would have actually been very lucky to marry younger highborn sons to their

daughters. You know, something really struck me when thinking about Jane Westerling in Jamie's Pot and comparing it kind of to jane heddle in brienne's plot right in the last chapter jane westerling is used as a honeypot for the starks but jane heddle kind of is used to seduce this broken faction that has oaths to stark brienne and jamie to stoneheart and then you've got the other other Jane who's being used and standing in for a Stark. Yep, absolutely. God, Jane's

getting no rest. Yeah, there's a lot of... I don't know if it's supposed to be like a play, the counterpart to the Jon Snow, the Jane Jane Doe thing going on. That actually wasn't a joke, that was serious this time. No, I think you might have something there. Yeah.

For now, though, Jamie's deliberating. He's like, all right, they'll have marriages. But he says Jane must wait two years before she wed so that no one suspects her to be pregnant with Rob's child. Interesting that you would say that, Jamie, considering the other marriage that has happened very recently within the same book when someone else's husband died. That was also a king. Very interesting that you would think such a thing. Sybil asks about her sons as well. Rolam is home, but Reynold, a knight, was captive at the twins.

He was innocent and knew nothing of the plotting, and she thinks he's still captive. Jaime thinks, or dead. Walder Frey didn't know the Westerlings were honeypots either. Hmm. That does stick out this read-through. Like, Walder Frey didn't know the Westerlings were honeypots either hmm that does stick out this read through like Walder Frey didn't know they were honeypots yeah I think that's really like that really sticks out to me

because that just goes to show how insidious like what Tywin's plotting was right he like kept all these cards so close and it shows in not telling the Freys about this plan of the Westerlings he was really just trying to get walder mad enough to break this huge taboo he needed walder's ego very bruised yeah like it's very manipulative shit yeah and he's willing to let people die for it right like reynold i mean he doesn't give a shit about rey. No. No. They're just tools. I mean, it's the same thought process, right?

Like, who cares about whether she has a baby she wants or not? And who cares if she loses her son? And of course, they're not even highborn, so I should care even less about them. That's true. Tywin does think like that. And I mean, it's sad that you see the parents thinking that way about their kids too, right? Like, I mean, you have Sybil not telling her daughter what's going on and i mean her son also what's going on because now her son's dead um but she doesn't know that rick and i'll find

that out in a moment but it also reminds me you know of another daughter who wasn't told a lot of their parents plotting and ended up being a pawn but But she was like, I don't want to be a pawn. She's like, I'm going to make problems. Arianne Martell. Hmm. You know, I see your Arianne Martell, and I'm going to bring another one to you. How about a Sansa start? But not yet.

Soon, though. She, too, will be like, I would like to start Problems. That girl is a problem. Theme song of the century for the War of the Queens. Is that a song? It's called Problem by Natalia Kills. I recommend

it. Not right now, obviously. But, you know. That's a point in my life. It's on my Jessica Jones playlist. Actually, it might be on my Aria playlist, too. I digress. So Jamie promises he will try to make some inquiries and pay the ransom for Reynold if, of course, he can. And Sybil then pushes and she's like, well, Tywin promised a joyful match for him, too.

That's right. A Joy Hill match. Jerrion's bastard daughter jamie's like the marriage has to wait because you know she's young and sybil gets kind of persnickety because she's like wait my son marrying a bastard jamie gets persnickety right back he's like my cousin marrying a scheming turncloak bitch his son uh and says joy deserves far better as well than being in your family jamie would have happily strangled that woman with her seashell necklace here comes joy was a sweet child albeit a lonely one her father had been jamie's favorite uncle your daughter is worth 10 of you my lady you'll leave with edmure and sir forley on the morrow

until then you would do well to stay out of my sight he shouted for a guardsman and lady sybil went off with her lips pressed primly together jamie had to wonder how much lord gawain knew about his wife's scheming how much do we men ever know? Spicer Westerling's throat with. Interesting. And also the projecting there with the wife scheming and feeling bad for Gowan. Like, oh, okay, this is just like with Amory. This is just like the last couple of visits.

He is very much projecting. Absolutely. The comparisons to Cersei here are obvious, right? Like he claims to not see her scheming, but he's not, like you pointed out, Chloe, he's not looking, right? Like, he's not seeing what's in front of his face that, you know, there's plotting going on, that she was deceiving him, and that you would have to open your eyes and actually, like, be aware of the person in front of you. And Jamie's been living in denial about, like like what Cersei is capable of and what she does and that would mean he would have to face also like how she manipulates him and that's the

bigger piece right like if I admit that she does this to other people then oh my yeah she does it to me too yeah definitely and I think you know it of, the rest of this chapter kind of bears out the idea that Jamie's projecting here, considering that, I mean, everything else in the chapter is showing us that turns out the people who do all of the different plots that are going on and in a lot of this book were Tywin Lannister, person who made entire plot that we are currently unraveling and dealing with the aftermath of here. Also, Littlefinger, who knows a lot, whereas

many people here don't know about his schemes, but he's got a lot of schemes. And he's also just, like, disappeared. He's just up and left. I mean, they all know. They're like, oh yeah, he's over in the Vale, you know, ruling, and his wife's dead. And clearly Liza didn't know anything. Clearly, because she's, I mean, now now she's dead so she can't but i love that they really are just that on suspecting of

him and i think it is something jamie has to unravel here right like with all these preconceptions and notions of class and what he's used to in this hierarchy He's something that we'll probably talk about till the cows come home that he is going to just like ignore some of these class conceptions that he has. And everybody that ignores, especially when it comes to like Littlefinger, people that look down on him, they seem to be the ones that are kind of getting screwed by him when they turn their backs. I mean, that's pretty much everyone. Yeah. Except for Sansa. She's not gonna let him. She's gonna get his ass. She's gonna whoop his ass. I mean, that's pretty much everyone. Yeah. Except for Sansa. She's not going to let him. She's going to get his ass.

She's going to whoop his ass. I can't wait. Well, she's the only one he's even slightly revealed himself to. Yeah. True. Which I find kind of fascinating. So is that his own conceit that he doesn't take her seriously? What?

Yup. Yup. Idiot. He's so stupid. I hate his stupid pointy fucking beard anyways stupid mint breath with his stupid green eyes so edmure and the westerlings eventually depart they now have 400 men jamie doubled the escort for further protections forley presters at the head, his pinched nose, bald pate, grizzled brown beard makes him look kinda not knightly. Jaime warns him, hey, the blackfish might show up and try to free Edmure. Forley's like, nah, no way. He says he has too many outriders and scouts that are screening them, and he has his

best bowman as well. With ten men guarding tully day and night he feels safe and if brinden shows up they'll loose their bows at edmure he says suckers i mean i've watched the fast and furious franchise so oh i went on the ride at universal so i understand it yeah i the ride at universal taught me that too for the prester doesn't know anything about action flicks jamie does advise him that he should put the same amount of guard on jane westerling which is probably a smart call jamie had to canter past the westerlings as he rode down the column on his way back to riverrun lord gowan nodded gravely as he passed but lady sybil looked through him with eyes like chips of ice. Jane never saw him at all. The widow rode with downcast

eyes, huddled beneath a hooded cloak. Underneath its heavy folds, her clothes were finely made, but torn. She ripped them herself as a mark of mourning, Jamie realized. That could not have pleased her mother. He found himself wondering if Circe would tear

her gown if she should ever hear that he was dead oh dude if you have to ask yeah well what's funny is that he's saying that now but it's not that he like wants specifically that right like he he thinks he wants it

but as we get to the chapter's end he gets basically that in letter form and he says no he knows we get to the chapter's end he gets basically that in letter form and he says no he knows he has to walk away yeah yeah and it's kind of interesting that he thinks that here because the lady sybil looking through him with chips of ice i mean that's how everyone else saw cersei in the first book as someone who would look at them with a cold ice queen sort of demeanor and then we found out oh no she's a raging fire on the inside but yeah if you have to ask then maybe not and we know that i mean cersei plays a part of mourning every now and then right and i think that's the part the

point here to an extent like yeah that contrast because i mean cersei did start this entire book morning so did jamie and she's also masqueraded as morning before when uh robert died but would she truly grieve for him in that way that she would tear her clothes and i don't know so angsty yeah i feel like jamie's sort of like a guy in the throes of you you know, obviously a really ugly breakup where you're like, you know, does she miss me? Does she think of me at all? Yeah, I'm not sure if Cersei knows that they've broken up. I think Cersei thinks that they're on a break. Jamie's like, we broke up.

Right. They're not in the same headspace over the end of their relationship, for sure. They have bad communication. They've just been relying on, on like being twins as their communication the whole time turns out you have to you know do more than share dna to be in a relationship actually you probably shouldn't do that in general but yeah that's that's typically considered the bad sign so instead of heading to river run where jam Jamie should be destined for, he decides to go check across the Tumblestone to work with Edwin Frey on bringing those prisoners from the

Twins down to them. He finds Edwin and Walder Rivers arguing heatedly in their pavilion. Walder greets him coolly, and Edwin accuses him immediately, saying that Ryman's blood, his father, is on Jamie's hands, as after Jamie sent him away, Ryman's blood, his father, is on Jaime's hands as after Jaime sent him away, Ryman was hanged with all of his party two leagues south of Fairmarket. It seems to be outlaws, but they're not sure if it's Thoros, Dondarrion, or maybe even the Stoneheart woman. Jaime frowned. No one will miss Ryman, but the outlaws are growing bolder if they're straight up just hanging the air to the twins in daylight yes how many men rhyman took and walter tells him and adds that it's almost like

they knew exactly how many men would be returning to the twins at the exact time interesting huh i don't know how that's happening edwin thinks his brother black walder had something to do with this though but walder river says he's being crazy he's like Black Walder's at Seagard and Jamie interrupts their grieving to remind them that they need to transfer the prisoners from the twins to the crown Walder Rivers is like um

they're very valuable and Edwin says that his grandfather will expect recompense for these prisoners and Jamie thinks you know he'll have it as soon as his hand grows back I get it And Jamie thinks, you know, he'll have it as soon as his hand grows back. I get it. It's a joke. You know, something in this that I love is that Jamie straight up thinks he's like, I'm interrupting their grieving, jokingly, you know. And it reminds me of Kevin and Jenna, I guess,

when each of his family members have been asking him, you know, like, how are you doing? How are you feeling? And he's and he's like about what they're like you know your dad died like the man that you're supposed to idolize forever oh him yeah i don't know he's out here judging and it's like weren't you cersei and everybody in the world just like arguing two days ago about your dad settle down jamie it's definitely a similar vibe especially because you know he's pointing out he's like i don't know they don't seem like they're really mourning or grieving especially compared to jane westerling she's still here doing like public displays of mourning i mean it's been a few months right and they're like it's been like a minute and they're like i, I don't know. I guess my dad's dead. But let's think about the consequences for me.

Yeah, I love the line that we have where he says, we all have expectations, okay? The Lannister brothers have great comebacks, you know? They got good witty witticisms. The witted, what is it, witted witticisms of Chewie Lannister. And then he asks if Reynold Westerling is among the captives.

Yeah, not so much. Yeah, remember him? Yeah. Yeah, he's dead. He is dead. Walder Rivers tells him the sad tale about it that Reynold was in the yard when they put the dire wolf down. He was trying to free Grey Wind, and he took an arrow to the shoulder. I know, right?

He takes an arrow to the shoulder, takes one to the gut, and yet he still held out long enough just to drag himself into the river. Edwin claims that he left a trail of blood, which is how they found him, and Jaime's like, did you see the body? And he said, oh, we found a thousand corpses down there. Once they spent a few days in the river, they all look much the same. And Jamie responds, I've heard the same is true of hanged men,

which that's totally just hardcore Lady Stoneheart foreshadowing. There's nothing else to pin on that. It makes me mad at Sybil again, right? Like, Reynold is there, there like trying to free rob's wolf and do the right thing and he doesn't even know his own mother has set him up for this horror show yeah sybil's doing the same thing that tywin is right she's just letting people go on not knowing the plan so that they're like fully bought in and like good on reynold you know he was there he's like i'm gonna risk my life to free the wolf because i all a because gray

wind's a good boy but also because i mean he's like well i've seen what these dire wolves can do it's clearly a strategic advantage to have the wolf out that's probably why they looked and locked him up in the first place but sybil spicer didn't deserve her children or her children didn't deserve her also in a way whichever way you want to put it yeah there are definitely some bad parents in westeros but she's up there on that list like yeah yep she is very high on that list much higher than probably what most people have it on their list they just don't think about it but pretty shitty i'm with you on that one the next morning the camp is empty no frays just dung, and the gallows beside the tumble stone. Davin wants to know what they're doing with this camp and all the siege equipment, proposing that they take it to Raventree and use it there. We'll have a new siege!

9am morning after the party he's like where are we partying again today man and you're just like dude I'm too old to party two days in a row and then you want to go back to bed after drinking water and ibuprofen right like Davin's out there like I want to do some war and Jamie's like I'm taking your keys you must chill I have done

too many war I am not doing more war absolutely it's true you know I mean like Davin when Davin was a kid jamie was doing stuff as a knight he was out there and now i i get the sense that he's not really interested in like all the the talking part of what jamie has to do now he's like you know no let's take this stuff they're still at using your metaphor there's're still beer in the keg. Let's go! That's absolutely dappin' right now, though. He's like,

what if we just got more? Party again, and by party I mean fight. Siege. Siege is kind of like a tailgate, right? It's basically a tailgate, and Jamie, like, let's not sell the guy short. Like, Jamie does give him something. He's like, okay, how about this?

You go set everything on fire. You know, start with the gallows. Pour all the beer out. Just like a tailgate. Yeah, like, light the couch on fire, and I'll go deal with Lord Tidus all alone. And Davin is so happy. He's like, oh, you know, maybe Tidus wants single combat. He's an old gray man.

That would be unfair, cousin. And Jaime's like, yeah, an old gray man with two hands. Like, that's all he can think. And there's something that stuck out to me that very specifically he thinks about him being an old gray man with two hands. Yes, that's more than his one. But also it kind of goes with his dream later, right? Like, in his dreams, he's had very different hand signals going on and he finally sees himself as one-handed later and it reminds me of him beautiful and golden jamie

lannister right versus this old gray man george kind of seems to be playing with this imagery this description about titus from davin it's kind of reflecting on jamie old and gray a done man davin shows up to party, but Jamie was busy acquiring trauma and killing kings in his teenage years. And now he has to go deal with someone named Tidos, which is, of course, the same name as the foolish Grand Lion hanging above all their

plots, right? Tywin's driving factor, Tidos Lannister. So all these kind of factors, I think they're important into Jamie's decision moving forward. Yeah, totally. Yeah, it'll be interesting when we get there. He fights Ser Ilyn, though, for three straight hours that night.

And he has a much better night, only dying, quote unquote, twice to Ilyn Payne, joking with him that he may be as good as Peck if he keeps it up. Ilyn laughs, you know, in his Ilyn way as well. They've apparently become drinking buddies you know if you can really call it that if they and they drink some imposters good red wine together illin does never interrupt or disagree or talk he just drinks and listens which jamie's like this is the best drinking partner ever and i'm like that's weird i don't know that that's why I drink with people. But anyway. That's called a servant, Jamie. Jamie says he should have the tongues torn out of all of his friends and Cersei as well.

Hmm. Yeah, the passage is actually a little intense. He fills their cups and says, and from my kin as well, a silent Cersei would be sweet, though I'd miss her tongue when we kissed. He drank. The wine was a deep red, sweet I'd miss her tongue when we kissed. He drank. The wine was a deep red, sweet and heavy. It warmed him going down. I can't remember when we first began to kiss. It was innocent at first, till it wasn't.

Well, that is how it mostly starts. He finished the wine and set his cup aside. Tyrion once told me most whores will not kiss you. They'll fuck you blind, he said, but you'll never feel their lips on yours. Do you think my sister kisses Kettleblack? Sir Illyn did not answer. brothers probably wouldn't like that and he says that brothers are dangerous he compares agan the unworthy and terence toyn whose brothers did their best to kill agan the unworthy after terence toyn was killed by him yeah i thought that was interesting and um there's this line of their best was not quite good enough thanks to the dragon knight but it was not for want of trying it's written down in the white book all of it it. Save what to do with Cersei. What Jaime needs is a relationship column

in a magazine. Oh my god. It kind of feels like the white book is the only book he's ever read. Aww. That's sad. Kristen, can you answer this question for me? Do you know? I don't know if Jaime's ever read another book. He doesn't talk about it.

Not with you? No, not at all god damn it i mean it's hard to bring a book i guess on the road yes it is hard to bring especially you know given how they're traveling right can't even he doesn't even have an ipad where you could carry like lots of books in your kindle app or something no No, he only talks of the white book. But I mean, that's, it's one of the few things he holds up on a pedestal. Right? Well, and here it's like he's looking for answers. And he has no answers from the white book, right? There's no answer is what he's coming across from the white book to figure out this problem. All right. He knows what the answer is he just

doesn't want to say it out loud which is why it's so lucky he has a friend with him who can't talk convenient convenient i mean illin tells him right he draws a finger across his throat to indicate you know you should probably just kill her dude jamie says no right that would hurt tommen and it would be awful and it would be good for the tyrells if cersei were dead but the answer is staring them in the face yes and jamie tells illen at his ugly smile which eliana would argue is not an ugly smile jamie tells him that he talks too much because of course he is tired of hearing the silence that confirms what he has to do.

I mean, he's not going to find any answers in the white book from any of the other Kingsguard, right? Because I mean, not many of them had the same problem as him. There are no men like me. And no one's going to write that down in the white book either. Yeah, no one's going to write down in the white book either yeah no one's gonna write down in the

white book like listen to all these women that i fucked that i wasn't supposed to because literally the whole prerequisite to having the job that leads to me writing in this book is that i not do that yeah it probably wouldn't work out to write about fucking your sister, huh? Or anyone, to be honest. It's usually frowned upon as a lord commander. Also, not lord commander, as a king's guard, but also the killing of brothers, right? Big John, your sworn brothers, Big John at the Wall vibes, or like the other way around when they're killing John. Something else that has those same vibes is the next day Sir Jermit of the Rainwood returns, complaining of giant wolves led by a savage she-wolf driving them out of the wood.

Jaime suggests a ring of fire, but inwardly wonders if the beast that Jermit speaks of is the same beast that mauled Joffrey at the crossroads. I found that ring of fire suggestion interesting, especially because it's coming from Jaime, who is a Lord Commander, and it reminded me of the old bear's ring of fire up in the north at the beginning of A Storm of Swords to protect them from some other terrifying force. And, you know, the old bear, also a Lord Commander. Yeah, I was thinking that ring of fire definitely reminds me of the Free Folk fires absolutely being lit and them following those fires.

Something else that it reminds me of is like in the night all these river lords possibly plus the brotherhood coming together with like their secret plans like it's kind of more likely that there's a great riverlands conspiracy theory over a great northern conspiracy theory i'm just saying that's my spicy take that it's probably more likely that the Riverlands has a conspiracy going on. That'd be interesting. Yeah, I'm intrigued. You should write a seven-part series on that, Chloe.

You know what, Kristen, you should do is you should fuck right off into the next passage. Dervet takes fresh men and horses to continue his search the next morning and the trident lords come to ask Jaime for leave to go to their lands. Lord Piper asks about the captives and Jaime promises that they will be brought back Carol Vance lingers telling Jaime he

must go to Raventree next to clear the air between Jonas and Tidus Strongboar leaves to fight the outlaws claiming he wants the hound's head. Or Dondarrion. Jaime says, you know what, go for it regarding the hound, but bring Beric back alive because he plans to make an example.

A thousand people must see him die or he won't stay dead. Interesting. Beardless Jon Bentley goes with Strongboar. Jaime refuses to question the men in the Riverlord garrison they swear they know nothing of brindan's plans specifically because of his promise to edmure jenna calls this chivalrous and says strength is needed over chivalry here jamie thinks that she should ask

edmure how chivalrous jamie is he thinks about the trebuchet again. He's like really like, I did good threatening the baby with the trebuchet. I was as mean as I could be, okay? Somehow he did not think the maesters were like to confuse him with Prince Aemon the Dragon Knight when they wrote their histories. Still, he felt curiously content. The war was all but won. Dragonstone had fallen and Storm's End would soon enough, he could not doubt, and Stannis was welcome to the Wall. The Northmen would love him no more than the Stormlords had. If Roose Bolton didn't destroy him, Winter would.

This is definitely some heavy foreshadowing, right? Because this is literally what's happening to Stannis right now, to Storm's End, all of it. Yeah, definitely. to stannis right now to storms and all of it yeah definitely i was i was just sort of thinking about how um jamie wants jamie in the trebuchet just this little moment where he's like you know he he's thinking jenna doesn't think i mean enough but yet in the previous chapter or whatever when he's there talking about it you know he's embarrassed he has like this he has this dichotomy or this he has this problem with the threat he's made right like he feels badly about it and yet he wants jenna to think he was as ruthless as taiwan it's this you know it's his internal conflict

again like should i be like taiwan should i not be Tywin? Who do I want to be? Yeah, it's kind of like he suddenly turned Jenna into a sort of surrogate for Tywin's approval. Ever since Jenna was like, I don't know, you're not Tywin's son, it's Tyrion. And he's just trying to prove things to Jenna in a way, or in his head he is, but he doesn't really say anything to her. He's just like, you should have seen me, only internally, you should have see me with the trebuchet line really great well done me i mean i think he really just uh he has a lot of the same issue right that tyrian has like he just wants someone to be proud of him you know for doing some sort of thing and he doesn't know who it needs to be right for should it be right in the eyes of tywin is he trying to please jenna he doesn't know he doesn't remember his mother the last memory he has of his mother is pretty much of her touching him and cersei fooling around his

children like that's one of the biggest memories he has like uh jamie's just looking around for a pat on the back and no one's given it to him for 30 something years yeah yeah and i think i mean when you put it like that it is really interesting because it goes to show how damaging once more tywin's parenting has been like they're 30 years old or or more well tyrian is probably 30 about now he's like 27 or so right when the series started and yeah they're just like still even now looking for that sort of as you said validation and approval and it goes to show like you know people should be like commended every now and then for things validated even when they're older throughout their lives tell the people that you love that you love them. I will not be saying that because I don't love Jamie Lannister. Yeah, you've never cried once.

Never. Not for Jamie. Legally, no, I have not. Thank you for understanding, Aliana. You know, but speaking of things about Jamie Lannister, you know, he is right in a lot of his predictions. He ends up being right that Swarm's End will fall soon enough. It's just not in the way that anyone thought because you know wow wild card hang on uh but it's also interesting that you know jamie is

thinking about this passage and also his legacy because jamie at the end of a feast for crows you can see that there is quite an arc here too right he's kind of disabused of these fantasies and notions that he had before he set out into the riverlands and had to start actually doing the work and start making the difficult choices when he was like you know what if people called me golden hand the just and you know that he was thinking in chapter three of this very same book and there's so many boys and men in this entire story turns out who just are constantly like man me next aim in the dragon knight they love aim in the dragon knight boys love aim in the dragon knight for some reason and it in within the story probably i don't know fans too whatever

it relates to jamie that we saw in a storm of swords who is also by then disillusioned with the songs and the stories and finding life wasn't like them, and then he let himself hope for a second. He's like, I could be like that. And I do think it's interesting that he thinks of Eamon here, because many people have already discussed this. There's quite a bit in their legacies

that there are some similarities, right? I mean, they didn't... Eamon probably didn't father bastards, but in the rumors that are told on his king's queen, so it's pretty different. But Aemon's story was just so full of gallantry. He was full of all that fulfilling that masculine ideal of being a great fighter knight,

fighting heroics of survival and strength, whereas Jaime's legacy right now is just so sullied by that one single act. And, you know, all the other things that come with being a Lannister in the part where he threw a boy out the window, but no one really knows that. But mostly that one act. Despite Aegon IV's attempts to dirty Aemon's name and legacy, Aemon's legacy stayed pretty intact.

Whereas, you know, Jaime's legacy is also staying intact right he's alive and it's really hard for him to undo the reputation that he has and make up for his sins which you know brienne is realizing now the hard way and she's like no no he's changed i know he's changed and they're like i don't think he has we're gonna kill you now uh because of jamie lannister yeah and to be fair with that idea of Aemon the Dragon Knight, something that I think is still an issue for Jaime is like, I mean, the basic fundamentals of why Aemon is this big hero is of course because Nereus loved him, right?

And he stood up for Nereus in the face of a big drunken lecher abuser is kind of the romance behind it. And I think that's what jamie saw himself as for so long right like he saw him as i'm standing up for cersei i'm trying to protect her and yes cersei did need protection from a lot of like the marital rape she experienced and abuse but jamie wasn't doing it again for the right reasons he gets a chance to finally do it publicly right yeah defend his sister and the queen and he's like but what if we threw this in the fire so for a second though here he's like hmm I could go home that'd be nice go be with my king

aka his son he wonders if Tommen would rather have a chair or a father and thinks you know Tommen probably wouldn't believe him anyway and Circe's probably filling his head with lies and I think I don't know Tommen would like cats they're less disappointing than either the pointy chair that doesn't let him do anything or a father fathers let you down

yeah fathers are honestly like a serving of of beets for Tommen yeah but he doesn't know at least you know he has mostly I guess good memories of his father and like I guess Joffrey maybe Myrcella who knows yeah and of course Jaime is thinking more about Tommen and Cersei and he's like holy shit I need to get him out of there before he becomes Joffrey 2.0. And he starts kind of drafting a new small council, a dream team, right? He's like, well, if Cersei was put aside, and this like went zero to 100 real quick. All of a sudden, he's like, well, if we could get Cersei put aside, whoa.

He thinks Kevin would be a great hand if he'd come back, or in the case that he didn't, Roland Crakehall, Forley Prestor. He even thinks he could throw a bone to Mathis Rowan or Peter Baelish. Again, no, Jamie. He thinks Littlefinger was as amiable as he was clever, but too lowborn to threaten any of the great lords with no swords of his own. The perfect hand. Of course, like five pages ago,

Littlefinger was just planning on a way to get a ton of swords and for sansa to be a queen just putting that out there jamie you lovable idiot and and again it's that passage just spells out the classism that you guys have been talking about and we talked about earlier right this this repeating thread particularly with little finger right he's so low-born like we don't even have to worry about him. He wouldn't even possibly aspire to be more because the, you know, the classicism inherent in Westerosi society says he can't be. And so he's not even going to bother and we can totally trust him. And they're all guilty of this conceit i mean jamie is really struggling with that a lot but you know cersei ned overlooked little finger for the same reasons right like they see ambition but

you know of course they're never really gonna get there so i don't need to worry about him and it feels like a really strong part of Jamie's plot, learning that, like, yes, money is sometimes power, but power is not always money. Yeah, and I mean, in Jamie's defense, it is something that George R. R. Martin has kind of written in there, right? Like, even Ned trusts Littlefinger, even though he's like, this guy kind of sucks.

The more that he hangs out with him, he's like, I kind of hate this guy. He's always negging me and negging ned that's a funny line of words man i regret never saying that during our first pov read through but george has this quote in an interview that he did back then where he feels that little finger was the most changed character between the book and the television show or not the most but one of the book and the television show or not the most but one of the most different because he said there's a line in a recent episode of the

show where he's not even present but two people are talking about him and someone says well no one trusts Littlefinger and Littlefinger has no friends and that's true of television show Littlefinger but it's certainly not true of book Littlefinger. Book Littlefinger in the book, everybody trusts him. Everybody trusts him because he seems powerless and he's very friendly and he's very helpful. He helps Ned Stark when he comes to town. He helps Tyrion, you know, he helps the Lannisters. He's always ready to help to raise money. He helps Robert. Robert depends on him to finance all his banquets and tournaments and his other follies because Littlefinger can always raise money. So he's everybody's friend. But of course, there's the Machiavellian thing. He's, you know, everybody trusts him. Everybody depends on him. He's not a threat. He's just this helpful, funny

guy who you can call upon to do whatever you want and to raise money. And he ingratiates himself with people and rises higher and higher as a result. So I thought that was interesting. That is a really different portrayal when you think about it and that's why he's like making all these little machinations and he's like sansa you're gonna be queen of everything don't you worry girl i'll only make you pay a price for me here's where you can send your taxes Sansa into my dick yeah it's awful he's literally the worst god just kill him

get a fucking job well the Tully Garrison is granted leave the next day no armor no swords three days worth of food and clothing and a solemn oath to never take arms against Lord Emin or House Lannister.

If you're fortunate, one in ten may keep that vow, Lady Jena said. Good, I'd sooner face nine men than ten. The tenth might have been the one who would have killed me. The other nine will kill you just as quick. Better that than die in bed. Or on the privy. Interesting exchange. It's another example, I think, of Jaime again projecting,

right, because he's like, sure, let's have them take oaths and not take arms against Ebon or House Lannister, because inside he's like, I mean, I took an oath to Catelyn Stark, and I have done a fantastic job at keeping it. It has been

very hard for me, but I have done it. So he's like, clearly everyone else can do it too. Silly man. Desmond Grell and Robin Riger choose to take the Black. They're allowed their armor and arms and are escorted to Maidenpool by Raph the Sweetling and men below

him. Jamie threatens to make sure they get the prisoners to Maidenpool unharmed. You know, I mean, like, I think this is interesting that you've actually bolded some of this here, because like, I really never noticed

Desmond, Grel and Robert Riger before. I know others have, right? But like, they aren't at the wall by dance. So I wonder what's in store for them. Grel and Riger, like, I don't know. Maidenpool's not too far from the Vale either. It's that or something interesting going on when they get to the wall. I don't know.

Well, so they're escorted with Raph the Sweetling, too. Yeah, but he abandons them. Yeah, um, so they're abandoned, so that means Raph didn't go all the way there, probably. I mean, or he just boarded a ship from there, right?

To go to Braavos. He was only told to bring them to Maidenpool. Then I guess he hands them off to someone else, right? Because Maidenpool would be able to get them on a ship, I guess, to the wall. And Raph was like, all right, I did my job. Peace out. I think we're gonna have to see them again for sure that's a great thought huh yeah i mean it's interesting right jamie's

just here delegating things and trusting things will get done i mean it does get done by raf but also here with the odes like i think that's also signaling a change in jamie's character right that he's becoming more trusting As he becomes more optimistic about himself, he's becoming more optimistic about others. It's not the worst thing. I mean, it's probably not the best thing for him in this situation right now, in the Riverlands, but it's not the worst thing in general

for people when it comes to the world, when you're not living in Westeros and in the middle of a war. Right. Three days later, Emin gives a three-hour-long TED Talk to the people of Riverrun

of his expectations of them, all in the light rain. Tom of Seven Streams is listening from a door, and Jamie notices that. Tom makes a joke to him that Emin should be a singer, as this is longer than a marcher ballad, and he's not taking any long breaths. Jamie laughs. He asks if Tom would make a song of it, and says don't play it where Aunt Jenna can hear.

He then surveys Tom. Small, garbed in green britches and tunic, brown patches in the frays and holes, and a long, sharp nose, big, loose smile, loose smile thin brown unwashed hair jamie asks why he didn't leave with ryman's men and tom tells him he plans to pass the winter here in riverrun nice and snug he hoped to win riverrun as white smile watt went with sir forley to the westerlands plus he knows twice as many body songs as Watt. Yeah. Important. It's a big job qualification. Jamie says he should work on playing for Jenna, as she's the boss here, and Tom asks why not Jamie? Jamie explains he must go back to the king, and Tom apologizes that he never played him anything other than the reigns of Castamere. He introduces himself to Jamie, who tells him to sing sweetly, and off he fucks to his great big dream. Yeah, you have Jamie Lannister here giving his locations and plans away to the spy,

while telling him that, you know, what would be really great for you in your career, as a singer, but also as a spy, putting you right there next to Jennaenna and emin especially as they hatch all of their plans which is interesting especially when you talk about it in the context of what you've been saying kristen right about uh this classism and jamie kind of overlooking the threats that someone could have and it seems like he's kind of doing that here with thomas seven strings he's like i don't know he's just a singer what could he what harm could he possibly do just like with cersei right who just finished with the torture of the blue bard blue bard and we talked

a little bit about him last episode and how uh that was a problem for cersei as well but i've really noticed like he's always there getting all the good information thomas sevens yikes yikes yikes yikes yikes not good like literally and jamie was really close he was like wait why didn't you go with ryman he's like haha no reason yeah he does he's like no reason but it is interesting right because you don't think about it until the blue bard scene and here with thomas seven strings but a lot of singers are in very much placed in that position to hear a lot of sensitive information right there's that scene with i guess he's a fool and not a singer but butter bumps oh yeah he's hearing everything that's going on between olena and sansa at the beginning of a storm of swords and i mean being a singer yeah you have

Marillion in this book yeah it's well I mean you're just privy to like yeah Marillion was privy to crazy shit too but I mean if you don't make your moves something bad happens and because of that classism nobody believes you anyway so and I mean that's kind of a skill right I mean I don't know but being able to sing and listen at the same time seems hard yeah Red Wedding 2.0 it's happening I never cared because it just felt like yeah sure that sounds right but now rereading this I'm like oh holy shit Red Wedding 2.0 is gonna happen I've always cared I've like cared but not that much like we'll see it when it happens i did care about yeah exactly my capacity for caring signs are all over this book for sure yeah especially in jamie's chapters which makes me pretty pretty positive that brienne and jamie

are still going to be around the riverlands during this time i agree redder wedding red the redder wedding redder wedding the reddest wedding the scarlet wedding so much red he dreams he's in the septa baler standing vigil over tywin a woman emerges from the shadows who he thinks looks like circe but it's not circe the woman's in gray silent sister, a hood and veil hiding her face, but he sees candlelight in her green eyes. Sister, he said, what would you have of me? His last word echoed up and down the sept. Me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me. I really wanted to do that. Thanks for letting me have that. I wasn't sure what direction you were going to take it, to be honest.

Very literal. Me. Me, me, me, me, me, me. Me, me. Me, me, me, me. Like Beaker in, uh... Yeah, Muppets. Yeah. She says she's not his sister. Not your sister. And asks if he's forgotten

her. He knows her now, but it's been so long. So before we launch into this, I think we should have fun for a second because we're going to get deep, right? This is going to go deep. This is a deep dream. We got to plug our friend Silas, Gods of Terror.

He has a theory that Joanna Lannister is alive, has a glass candle, and is basically Quaithe. I don't 100% agree with all of this theory. It sounds like tinfoil because it is, but it relies on some really interesting analysis that we're about to go through. The veil and hood concealing Joanna's features, the candle light in her eyes, and there's text in A World of Ice and Fire like how the queen didn't approve of Ares turning her ladies into his whores from Ares 2. Riella dismisses Joanna from her service, which ventures into Joanna being Quaithe from there in the theory.

And again, I don't really fully believe it, but the analysis has some really interesting points on timing and some of these smaller points. And I know we discuss this like every episode now and I'm not sure if I'm a Tyrion Targaryener or a Jaime Cersei-er really I lean towards Tyrion Targaryen if I had to choose right like this is it this is the moment if you don't choose you I don't know die on the spot which sounds like it because it's like really with for a Tyrion question thanks but Tyrion Targaryen I guess makes more sense if there was a five-year gap i wonder if like the removal of that gap is the big thing because there's so much here that just keeps getting said right that makes me go george what are you trying to say are you are you winking at us are you saying something i don't know and it feels like

he's like making the details messy on purpose, right? To screw with us for us to actually care about it. I don't know. I don't know. I mean, I just don't think there's time for it in the main story, but interesting. And there's this little bit of imagery, though, with Joanna that has a really good amount of cloak symbolism, right? The imagery of her cloaked and veiled. And it feels definitely like foreshadowing for

Stoneheart, but I also would add with what we do know about Castamere, what we've recently discussed with Tywin sending some of the women, the Reigns, to the Silent Sisters, and the punishment he likely was involved in influencing with tearing out the Lace Serpent Serala's tongue in

Duskendale, so just interesting imagery with, uh, the silenced woman and Joanna showing up where looking like a silent woman. Especially in the context of Jamie being like, Hmm, what if my sister was also silent? I mean, I agree with Chloe that, that no one is ever going to tell us whether, you know, that there, there's not going to be some big reveal where

it's like oh yes this happened i think we will always be arguing about this maybe in an interview someday he'll say it maybe he'll just be like oh yeah i intended it i didn't really have enough time to play with it but the people that figured it out were geniuses i don't know if he'll ever do that no i doubt it even now he's just like he reveals some things where he's like, I can't believe people are asking me like what word Brienne said. He's like, that shouldn't even be a theory. Like, he's like, I thought I wrote that. in that Rolling Stone interview a couple years ago. He was like, who killed Joffrey? And he's not saying it as though it's a theory. He's saying it's something that he feels that he gave the answer to, but there's no outright saying.

Will you forget your own Lord Father too? I wonder if you ever knew him, truly. Her eyes were green. Her hair spun gold. He could not tell how old she was. Fifteen, he thought, or fifty. She climbed the steps to stand above the mirror. He could never abide being laughed at. That was the thing he hated most. Who are you? He had to hear her say it. The question is, who are you? This is a dream. Is it? She smiled sadly.

Count your hands, child. One. One hand clasped tight around the sword hilt. Only one. In my dreams I always have two hands. He raised his right arm and stared uncomprehending at the ugliness of his stump. We all dream of things we cannot have. Tywin dreamed that his son would be a great knight, that his daughter would be a queen. He dreamed they would be so strong and brave and beautiful that no one would ever laugh at them. I am a knight, he told her, and Cersei's a queen. A tear rolled down her cheek.

The woman raised her hood again and turned her back on him. Jaime called after her, but already she was moving away, her skirt whispering lullabies as it brushed along the floor. Don't leave me, he wanted to call, but of course she'd left them long ago. call. But of course, she'd left them long ago. Oh, this dream. Well, obviously, we're not the first people to talk about it and, and talk about how, you know, it's about Jamie's identity and all those kinds of things. And but I feel like there's this, this question where she's saying to him, these are the things that Tywin dreamed of.

And he's like, but we did achieve those dreams. I am a knight. She is a queen. But what do you do with that? These things you attain, the power you have, what is legacy? What do you leave behind? In the end, Tywin was a rotting corpse and his children were whispered about and mocked and they were all

laughed at yeah absolutely it's like at this moment circe is she still a queen i mean it's debatable right like she's kind of locked up at the very moment this dream is happening and he's like i am a knight and she's like but tywin couldn't dream that his son be a great knight are you a great knight i i think that's part of what's going on here, right? Yeah, and I think there's a lot to argue about, like, what Tywin's view of a knight was, right? When you really focus on that, Cersei is currently laying on a cold tile floor with a straw pallet after kind of hooking up with some men for security, right? Against her daughter-in-law's reign, which this reign included them skipping around picking daisies and talking

about cooties. I know I've been very sympathetic for Cersei, but she is giving Alicent a run for her money, right? Like with the whole ruining people's lives, trafficking people to be experimented on or sold into slavery by people she callously raised to government and helped further boost like not not a great look right and yeah jamie's trying his best but he's not being a knight like his father would want like looking back at jamie in storm i think this especially he's coming to terms with his mother's absence and death, and the mother, the entire aspect of the mother. He had originally replaced it with Cersei in his mind, and it feels like he's projecting this disappointment that he feels in himself into the memory of Joanna in this dream. This is all he remembers of her, a hooded, misty figure that looks oddly like Cersei and is fluctuating between young and old and

it's a huge step his subconscious asks the question he's really trying to ask himself who are you and I think when we look at Brienne's fever dream that she recently had which has major Ned Stark vibes uh and Cersei's dream that she had as well in Cersei 9 you get some interesting things like Brienne's fever dream alongside this is she dreams of being at Harrenhal and fighting the bear. She begs for her sword. The dead are watching her, Renly, Nibble, Dick, Crabbe, Catelyn, Shagwell, Biter. She screams for Jaime and in her next dream, she's back at the Whispers fighting Clarence Crabbe. He turns into Biter. She doesn't have her

sword and she cries out for her sword while thinking of failing jamie in the next dream she's lying in a boat and of shadows uh hooded men in leather surround her the willows are whispering she's a freak some are whispering she's a beauty and then her next dream she dreams of evenfall when she was a younger woman dreaming dreaming she wants a sword, not a rose. She's rejected by her suitor, Ronit Coddington, but as he leaves, his griffins turn into lions, and once more she tries to scream Jaime's name, but her tongue's fallen out. So flipping over to Cersei's dream,

Cersei is being awakened by septas on and off throughout Cersei 10, against Brienne being unable to stay asleep in and out of consciousness while she is you know half face bitten off and all that good stuff. Cersei 9 juxtaposed here is Cersei dreaming she's in the black cells naked chained to the wall instead of the blue bard. Her nipples are torn off by the imp, bleeding freely, and she begs him not to harm her children. He tells her she'll see them crowned and that she will see them die and then sucks on her boobs and she wakes up and it hurts really bad. So there are obvious parallels with those dreams here and they can be looked at against Jaime's dream, right? There's loneliness,

searching for something that isn't there, losing something, whether it's Brienne's tongue, Cersei's teats, or Jaime's hand. I'm going to quickly plug here, as you brought up, Brienne dreams briefly of losing her tongue. And of course, there's this weird underlying thing going on in this chapter as well, where at first Jaime sees his mother as a silent sister and then also talking about ripping out Circe's tongue and there is an essay by Melanie Lott Seven is the name that she's chosen by herself her name is in fact Melanie uh about silenced women in a song of ice and fire uh analyzing that if that's something that you are interested in but yeah i think you've gotten to the heart of a lot of what's going on here in jamie's storyline right he's at this like crossroads again where you know he's resigned himself to try and be better and thinks he is but again falling back on a lot of those same lannister

as we said before same lannister strategies so i mean before, same Lannister strategies. So I mean, who are you? I mean, like, he still thinks he's a Lannister, he still thinks he's a Kingsguard. But there's always like an entire world of other things that he could be and he hasn't truly gotten to explore that yet. And maybe maybe eventually one day, we'll see what happens. The rest of all that are getting to define his own knighthood. Well, and Tywin didn't dream that Jaime would find love or be happy or that, you know, Cersei would be happy. They were tools and they got to be those things. But Tywin is not the kind of father who's going to care about personal fulfillment. But in your own heart, you want to be more than just a thing, you know?

And I feel like Jamie's really suffering with that. Like, who am I? Who will love me? Right? Like, he's still reaching out for that, like the approval, whether it's coming from his mother or Cersei or Tywin or Jenna or even Brienne, right? Like someone to say, you know, you are more than these things that people think of you as. But he's really struggling with defining who he's gonna be. And he's gonna have to make some choices.

Yeah, and it's hard because he's still like trying to pattern himself in many... I mean it... How can you be something that you don't know, right? Exists yet. Like he's trying to pattern himself off of all these other stories and heroes in a way being like well i'm never going to be able to do that all those people in the white book that he reads about too right like he brings it up over and over again there's no answers in the white book the white book should tell me or his personal captain america that that

amen that that everyone loves and reveres this story that's probably a lot of its myth but these these ideas he's searching for a way to define himself and to be more than a knight in song yeah a knight in a song or his parents dreams yeah yes either of those though i mean in a Song. Yeah, A Night in a Song or His Parents' Dreams. Yeah, yes. Either of those. I mean, in a way, you know, his parents, Tywin, had his own mythologies that he wanted his kids to live up to. And trying to force them into that left them completely inept to actually do it. Yeah, how do you be Jaime now, you know, at this year's old? First time you ever get a chance, and now you get to be

Jamie. What do you do? He's not even defining himself by Cersei anymore. Good. There was a break that needed to happen. Jesus. Took you long enough. From that dream, and as Jamie's

trying to figure out who are you, he wakes, shivering. The room is cold the fire has died the window blown open he crosses to fix the shutters but his barefoot touches something cold oh god the worst sorry it's such a terrible feeling when you've just woken up and you don't really know what's going on you're like oh my god or he's step on something. Anyway, first he thinks it's blood. Interesting. Dark. But it's so cold. Turns out it's actually snow drifting in. The yard is

covered in white. The Merlin's in snow and he can see his breath. Winter's here and I don't know, it just makes me think, especially, again, supposed to be the same book as Dance. You know who else's blood is cold as snow right now or probably very soon? Jon Snow.

Thoughts on, in my head. That's it. Well, that makes sense, though. That is, uh, right now his blood is definitely running very cold. I mean, it could have still been blood, you know? It just had to have been someone else's not very fresh blood. I guess then it would be dry. I don't know.

I don't touch cold blood. Or snow blood. I guess it would be dry. I don't know. I don't touch cold blood. Or snow blood. Except for in food. That's different. He knows that this means the chance of the harvest is done, and that the fields are all

doomed. He wonders what Tywin would have done to feed the rum, but Tywin is dead. Daddy cannot solve this problem, and he's literally why we have this problem agreed he is he is absolutely why we have this problem and going back to kind of what we've been speaking about with jamie and all these people that are kind of surrounding him on his family's council uh that are guilty as sin for trusting men like Tywin and Littlefinger who are willing to do whatever it takes to keep their status, right? Exploiting and exerting their power

or gaining power through resources. And it reminds me of a lot of you know, I'm from Michigan. And why are the people in Flint still being subjected to poison city water? Well, because there are people with a large amount of money that have their own clean water, and then they want to regulate and tax that part of their life further to make more money and exploit these people. Like, it's about resources. It's a resource war, right? The rich are hoarders. Tywin wanted his legacy in the fastest way possible to right his father's wrongs at the expense of others to maintain the resources and having an upper hand on the entire game he hoarded and he thought himself a king and now

little finger is playing that same game of resources and upcharging lords for it which sidebar sansa's gonna have to confiscate that supply chain flow right like she is gonna have to just ruin that supply chain uh but maybe there was some good in Tywin, but him being nice to his wife a couple times doesn't fix the man he was. He was so powerful a man and continued to use that power against those he wanted to silence. And he spent that much time scheming to save his asshole to perform atrocities like the Red Wed red wedding to let the mountain loose with the purpose of maiming instead of spending that energy on infrastructure and building things for the future like agan the fifth was the exception not the rule i get that as

far as rulers go and jaharis but they all found a way to leverage it right like their royal relations are strained as we see across the nations but they still usher in some sort of peace you can't ask for a peace while destroying and exploiting a people that is just not how westeros works and his asshole is what killed him sorry i really needed to get that in speak girl i was just thinking um i was thinking about this because the mythos of tywin from when he was hand for the mad king was that by all accounts he as the saying goes he kept the trains running on time that people were fed and infrastructure projects happened and roads were built and he gets a lot of credit for that especially given how eric was aries right like he the mad

king and he was unstable i guess was the word i'm looking for but with his own monster his own grandson on the throne he neglects all these things and i'm i'm fascinated by that too complacent right acedia greed leeches off of acedia and a knight to tywin is a monster right we come back to that question of what is a knight to tywin to the man that let gregor clegane go in and just pulverize people in the sack of king's landing knowing what he was going to do right like he fully knew that's what he was going to do and i think jamie not being a monster in that manner and jamie somehow staying as true to himself as he can be right in all of this i think that's really important because being raised by someone like tywin who will stop at nothing to exploit others

to get what they want that's dangerous and we see how it affects cersei we see a lot of the effects in tyrian not great yeah and i think you have quite an interesting moment where jamie does to an extent tell tywin i will not be your monster right yeah where he's like i'm not gonna go where you want me to go and that's part of him re-exerting that but now that that approval's gone he already like rejected it and i think that's a difficult thing right that a song of ice and fire is exploring part of it is about that relationship people have with their parents when both when they're there and when they're gone and i don't know it's interesting that jamie fulfilled a lot of it but it's only towards the end right he had that relationship with Tywin, and that's maybe part of why he's craving it.

Because for a long time, he was like, I don't know, doing all right. Doing pretty well by most of Tywin's standards. And as you said, he was so effective in many things, and that's kind of what Jaime's trying to strive for in that effectiveness here in the Riverlands, while striking that balance of not going full Reigns of Castamere. And he hasn't fully examined yet. He's starting to, right? Because he was like, man, Tywin's being judged in the Seven Hells or by anything on the other side. That's probably not very good for him.

So he kind of knows that Tywin wasn't doing great, but so why is he still aspiring to that same model? I don't know. But by now, but by morning though, what we do know is that the snow is ankle deep. The drifts have piled up around the godswood trees. There are squires,

there are squires, stableboys, and pages. They're all warring with snowballs, laughing, and Jaime remembers ah, snow boys, and pages. They're all warring with snowballs, laughing. And Jaime remembers, ah, snowballs. I remember snowballs. And flinging them at Tyrion when he would waddle by. Or even slipping one down Cersei's gown. But he was like, you know, that was a fun two-handed activity I used to do as a child.

Now I only have one hand. I think he could still make snowballs with one hand in fact maybe he would actually be better because his hand would be cold and therefore not well it's part of the effectiveness of making a snowball melting it a little bit so that you get a little bit of that ice anyways sorry snowball mechanics and

snow means many things throughout this series but I do think it's interesting that even for the Lannisters or for Jaime right it's being used even for the lannisters and or for jamie right it's being used to convey a very similar thing that snow does for sansa and like ari's storyline especially sansa's uh showing that time of innocence and nostalgia thinking all the way back to like the snowball fights that people used to have yeah it circles or they used to have it reminds me of that line from sansa that uh thought my song was beginning that day, but it was almost done. You know, there are we could have put Jamie by a lot of POVs could have been by Sansa even too. But that that rings true here for Jamie right from the beginning of the chapter and thinking about Tidos and how he has to go deal with Tidos and how now Tidos is an old gray man

and so's Jamie he's getting gray snow's falling colors leaving the world gold's out baby he's like in his mid-30s he's an old tired man Eliana you know we just gotta put him out back just gotta put him out back take him out to the pasture 30s this 30 30s are the new 20s i don't have that problem so a knock comes at the door and pack opens it to maester vyman river runs old maester palest snow apologizing for taking the liberty of opening a letter that has come for jamie jamie does not give a fuck about this federal offense. He's like, I know it's winter, it's the Citadel, I get it,

but Viman's like, no sir, not the Citadel. And we get this passage. Jamie read it in the window seat, bathed in the light of that cold white morning. Qyburn's words were terse and to the point. Cersei's fevered and fervent. Come at once, she said. Help me. Save me. I need you now as I've ever needed you before. I love you. I love you. I love you. Come at once. Vyman was hovering by the door, waiting, and Jaime sensed that Peck was watching too. Does my lord wish to answer? The maester asked. After a long silence, a snowflake landed on the letter. As it melted, the ink began to blur.

Jamie rolled the parchment up again, as tight as one hand would allow, and handed it to Peck. No, he said. Put this in the fire. Oh, I love this part. So I wrote something about this, like, on my Tumblr blog, like, 400 years ago. I love this thing that we learned from George's editor, who talks about the threefold strategy. And if you don't know what I'm talking about, I urge you to go out and Google it, or maybe Eliana and Chloe will link it for you here. But she talks about how when George wants you to get something as a reader, he tells you three

times, right? And he's, he, at first it's very subtle and then it's blatant and then he just spells it out for you, right? And it's like, this is really important. You have to get this. And if you use the rule of three and go back and look for any major turning point in the series, and it'll be there. But I see Jaime saying no to Cersei three times, and this was the most blatant of them all. But the subtle one, going back all the way to Storm, he says no to Cersei when she tries to seduce him. And she's trying to convince him to leave the Kingsguard. And, you know, she's, we can be together and

you'll leave the Kingsguard and everything will be great. And he's like, no, I'm not doing that. I'm going to stay in the Kingsguard. I mean to, to do this thing you tasked me with. You made me Lord Commander. Now let me do it. And then, then she comes back to him and she says, okay, well now I need you to be my hand. You have to be my hand, Jamie. You can't refuse me and leave me. She, he's like, no, I'm, I'm not meant to rule. No, I'm not doing it. And then finally, to me, this is him spelling it out, right? Like she's asking him to come and she says it three times. I love you. I love you. I love you. Come to King's Landing. Save me from my fate. Only you can do this for me. And he's

burned the letter. No, I'm not going. And I feel like this is like the break, permanent break between them. I mean, yes, they will meet again. Yes, they are going to see each other. But I think Jamie is truly done being ruled by Cersei doing anything for her love. I think he's, this is where he says, no, I, I'm making a choice here that I'm doing something else. It definitely feels like the permanent break. And the rule of three is really prominent, even if we go back to Cersei's last chapter, right, as she's actually writing it.

And it's really an interesting perspective, considering we had Jaime earlier on in the chapter thinking, would Cersei grieve for me? Would she rip her skirts? Because this is the closest thing we've had to Cersei ripping her skirts for Jaime, right? We had this back and forth. As you command, I love you thrice. Thrice, she had to reach him. He will come. I know he will.

He must. Jaime's my only hope. She thinks that three times means something very important. She's like, if I tell him I love you three times, I know he'll come. But she didn't use those words before to keep him from leaving. It's too late. It's like, what if Luke Skywalker, right? And Obi-Wan, but especially Luke because he's the twin.

It's like, what if I didn't answer this help me message? It's like, let's just throw this in the fire that would be terrible actually um but yeah absolutely with all of that and here's where you finally get that turning point and it's like how much like will we see jamie change now that he's finally decided to divorce himself figuratively, but in a way kind of literally of Cersei. It also like, I think what's so funny about this letter and you know, you were quoting what happened in the Cersei chapter where Qyburn's like,

thrice? Really? I think that's why Vaibhid was also so awkward about it when he came in the room. He's like, I'm definitely sure I saw something that I shouldn't have. I thought I was logged into my account and this DM was for me and it was not. And he's like, wow, maybe those rumors are true because I mean, like, I mean, obviously siblings and twins love each other.

But to say it three times, that's like a lot, right? other but to say it three times that's like a lot right and then at the end jamie's like put it in the fire and i mean it just ends on that i'm like was it burnt i feel like if we didn't see it burnt like should we take the same ideas if you don't see the body then it's still alive in a swath because think about other things that are out there that haven't been burnt like the will rob stark's will i don't know yeah that's the thing that i wonder like what i mean there was peck he gave it to peck so i mean it probably like actually happened but at the same time i'm like i don't know did Did it? And then even so, Vyman already saw it. I'm just like,

you know, Don really reminded us last episode that, you know, just as Jamie thinks throughout these chapters, like, a lot of these men were loyal to someone else just like a minute before. Actually, I don't know, like an hour before. Whatever. And now, like, obviously we know that the maesters have their

preferences, right? Like, again, this would have come alongside chapters where barbary dustin's all like you know what's interesting theon i don't trust maesters and then a moment ago where pie cells like yeah i mean i guess i serve the citadel but think of all the things that i've done for house lannister and i don't know it like was was the message kept the maester saw it and it's just like it's definitely been seen a lot of people have seen it you can't just like on hit unsend or unread anymore jamie all right this is a new day and vibin saw your DMs and he took screenshots. Jamie locked his Twitter account. He softlocked Cersei. That is literally what happened tonight. Yeah, Vymin's like, I don't know. I've got proof. I got way back machine.

Oh my god. Do you think Jamie cares, though? Like, that's sort of my my sort of wondering at this point I'm like he just seems so tired of he sort of flirts in this book with like what if I told Tom and I was his dad would that be bad you know like do I care that Vyman read my my love note from Cersei you know I mean obviously he only talks to Ill and pain who can't tell anyone but but in the same vein he seems like a guy who's kind of tired of like pretending that it didn't happen i mean they all just heard his breakup right like yeah it's not even what do they have to tell they can't tell people he's dating his sister because he'd just be like i just dumped her yeah

yeah and i think that's interesting right to say that i haven't thought of like does jamie even care if people know because he has been telling seriously he's like what if we just told everyone and she's like we can't do that then i'd stop being queen but now obviously jamie's like i don't give a fuck if she's like queen or not i'm not gonna go save her well you know that's something else too right like so not only that it's not that they know that he's fucking her it's that they know he's not fucking her now and that's a pretty big piece of information like when he leaves what if maester vyman is like hey tom of seven streams did you know that we could drive a further wedge between the crown absolutely and like is this an act of treason on Jaime's part no

I mean like as a Kingsguard this is kind of his job but I mean it's not the first time Jaime hasn't done his job I mean it's not to protect her he learned that from his very first gig with the Kingsguard that is very true his job is not to protect Cersei

that's true he wanted to change things and i wonder you know maybe that'll be part of that legacy of his right like obviously people feel that the bell and car prophecy might be about jamie and circe and it likely is so that's part of it but this could be part of it as well if that gets out like oh remember that time that kingsguard was supposed to protect the family and the queen and he didn't which also actually is something that he feels a lot of guilt for

right when it comes to Rayella yeah because it wasn't his choice but this time it's his choice yeah well lots to chew on holy crap I don't know how we're gonna end jamie next week i don't feel like we can i feel like we need two more books yeah i mean we're at such an interesting and pivotal point for him kristin what do you think i'm still mad as i was when I first cracked open dance in whatever 2011 when there was only one

Jamie chapter like what are you kidding me one one Jamie chapter you've got to be kidding me that's true yeah so that's painful yeah I you know that there's he's got all this unfinished business in the riverlands and i i and he has to meet cersei again i i'm with you on the i mean everyone is right like do people not think that jamie isn't the valonqar i yeah i mean i know eliana and i have discussed how like it would be funny if it was just like Tyrion because Cersei's just so dumb and she just really like somehow like she was kind of right the whole time but kind of not

but at the same time it's like it's so right there because it feels subtle you know having Jaime be it well and Cersei outright naming Tyrion the Valkar to me means that, you know, it just can't be.

But who knows? I've been wrong before. I mean, that in and of itself is what makes it so incomprehensible that Cersei being right? Ridiculous. Exactly. But, I mean, I also wonder, I mean, it's likely Jamie. it's something that had there not been

so many years between books people wouldn't have thought or accepted so much right it would have felt more like a wow yeah absolutely if we hadn't been chewing on it for nine let's not talk about it too many years it's not nine years if you think about it. If you go from the time Feast was released. Oh my god. Let's not. Oh god. Let's not do the math. It hurts. It's painful math. It's very painful math. Although in some ways I'm like so

I've pined for it for so long that I'm like come out the other end into this like weird zen place where I'm like it will happen and i will love it yeah i'm not like upset about it anymore you know i was upset like oh george give it to us and i'll always say george give it to us but uh yeah it's too much i don't have the energy for it there are other books that you can enjoy while you wait and they will only

enhance your reading experience of martin's pieces especially if you're looking at older stories that he's definitely utilized to kind of jump off of or other sci-fi pieces so i don't know i think there's just a lot of media to go around that you can consume and not get too tired and sad in the zone waiting for the winds of winter i'm not gonna lie though i will absolutely find the first jamie chapter in that book i mean i've talked about this with people before right like are you just gonna like open it and start at the beginning or are you gonna be like oh my god who's in here oh that's a good question i'm gonna start at the beginning yeah i'm gonna let the journey take me where it does but i'm gonna turn off like everything like i i i'm taking vacation time pto

yeah i'm turning all social media off girls gone canon is canceled until it's done um oh my god i get what do we even what's our spoiler scope? I don't know. I don't know. We'll cross that bridge when we get there. What happens when like- Like J.D. Lannister, burning bridges. What happens when it gets announced and then we have three months to finish all the episodes? Oh, no, we're not, I don't know what we're going to do. We'll cross that bridge later.

We got time. We got time. I'm not going to think about it. Kristen, you're stressing me out. I'm not going to think about it until it's announced. Kristen, you just stressed me out. Why would you you do this to me i hope that book never comes out holy shit i'm just kidding don't hurt me oh my god i'm not gonna hurt you but like that's something people ask in the they used to ask in the group they don't ask it so much they used to ask that's

so sad what will the rules be about spoilers and i I'm like, oh my God, we'll cross that bridge when we get to the book. God, Kristen, you have been so lovely tonight. You know that? I'm just truly honored to be here and to talk about Jamie. And I've had a lot of fun. I enjoyed listening to you all talk about the books. And so it was a real treat thank you so much yeah we haven't gotten to talk about i guess you know every now and then when

you and i meet up we don't really talk about a song of ice and fire which i think is calming for me um so you know it was good to to dive into this discussion with you with our people human voices and not just over little comments on Facebook. Agreed. It's been a good time. And, you know, I enjoy running into you in person and talking furniture with you every now and then.

Yeah. I bought something. I'll tell you later. Oh, awesome. Good. Me next. Run into me next. I know. Well, we'll be able to travel again soon chloe i swear i have faith that you're on my list girl i'm coming for you and world con 2021 yes yes world con 2021 well kristin please let everyone know where they can find you on the internet, where you want to be found on the internet, I should say. I'm in the A Song of Ice and Fire Facebook group on Facebook. If you aren't there, come join 66,000 of your closest friends and talk about the books.

I am on Twitter if you want to watch me talk about politics at KRTMD. watch me talk about politics at krtmd and i am my pretty quiet tumblr is also at krtmd it's a really dumb name it was an accident you know and then it stuck and then somebody once told me that they thought it stood for karate doctor and i thought that was really funny that's amazing well we have the karate doctor on our show. Wow. We should have been asking you more about Jamie's martial prowess. You know, he's really good with a sword. Yeah, which I guess isn't karate.

Well, you know, he's got quite that karate chop with that golden hand that he likes to smack everyone around with so he's not using it to the full advantage that he could be I know how monk class works in Dungeons and Dragons there's a lot of potential there you're right

I have no clue well as always thanks so much for listening into our our 95th episode a song of ice and fire episode jamie seven you can find us over on social media at girls gone canon c-a-n-o-n on twitter or if you like the episode and want to chat with us about jamie send us an email at girlsgonecanon at gmail.com And of course, keep up with us, keep up with Jamie, and then soon after, Ari's Oakheart, by subscribing on Google Play,

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thanks for listening. I've been one of your hosts, Chloe. And I have been another one of your hosts Eliana thank you so much to this week's other one of your hosts Kristen finally we have another another one of the hosts bye