Girls Gone Canon Cast - ASOIAF Episode 99 - ADWD The Watcher

Episode Date: August 14, 2020

Balon Swann brings a long-awaited present to Dorne: A sign of the Mountain's death. Doran warns of Cersei's plans but also the price of vengeance, setting the stage for Dornish plays as Areo watches on.  Links mentioned: - The Sun Hiding the Spear: Darkstar as Doran's Spy - https://asoiafchineselit.wordpress.com/2020/08/08/the-sun-hiding-the-spear-darkstar-as-dorans-spy/  - (Spoilers TWOW) The Fate of the Two Queens: How We Sort-of Already Know the Outcomes of Their End-of-ADWD Predicaments - https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/f3x7cu/spoilers_twow_the_fate_of_the_two_queens_how_we/ --- Eliana's twitter: https://twitter.com/arhythmetric Eliana's reddit account: https://www.reddit.com/user/glass_table_girl Eliana's blog: https://themanyfacedblog.wordpress.com/ Chloe's twitter: https://twitter.com/liesandarbor Chloe's blog: www.liesandarborgold.com Intro by Anton Langhage

Hello and welcome to Girls Gone Canon, A Song of Ice and Fire, Episode 98, A Dance with Dragons, The Watcher. Wow. Erio Hota. I am one of your hosts, Chloe. And I am another one of your hosts, Eliana. Erio Hota's other chapter. I can't believe we have to leave him after this until the Winds of Winter, but we do. Yeah. We do. We don't get an Ario Winds of Winter chapter. can't believe we have to leave him after this until the winds of winter but we do yeah we do

you don't get an ario winds of winter chapter and honestly i not that i like had low expectations or anything i just am like wow this has been i think really fun to analyze the ario chapters i've never done like a deep dive on ariohota i think there's like a lot of under discussed stuff in there. Yeah, it's great in general to go to Dorne. I think we've seen some really good positives. I think we've also seen a lot of negatives in some of the storytelling there as we have discussed. Maybe not in full, but we've definitely discussed it. And I'm going to be really kind of sad to leave Dorne for the next little bit because I kind of like living in Dorne for the moment I like seeing some of these politics play out as we're about to talk

about in the beginning of the chapter we're going to see a political event that maybe the Dornish really aren't that different besides their wanton women and their spicy peppers you know what I mean yeah and and you know back then, we always had that in the back of our minds, like, yes, we're leaving Dorne right now, right, for a bit, once we were done with, like, the Arianne chapters. But we always had that, like, thing in the back of our minds of, like, yeah, we'll be

back, but now... I mean, eventually, I guess. Yeah, I guess for now, the closest we'll get to Dorne will be when we eventually hit like Cersei chapters where you get some of the inklings of the Dornish near the end and um I guess there's the Daenerys chapters where it intersects with some of the Dornish politics and yeah like you said the Tyrion chapters but it's not in Dorne no we're not going to come back to

Dorne for a little bit and that's okay we'll we'll adventure elsewhere I'm actually I'm pretty excited about where we're venturing next Eliana do you think we should tell them because next week we will not have a public episode that is a point of view episode we'll talk about what you are going to get for next week's public episode in just a second but come September we start a new A Song of ice and fire pov yeah we're gonna take a quick break um i kind of forgot why we're taking a quick break that's a joke you'll see why that works in a second i'm ruining the joke anyways oh my god yeah so we're gonna take a brief the briefest of summer breaks next week and share with all of you a Patreon episode. In September, we're going to go

from Dorne over to the Iron Islands. And then maybe head a little north? You know, I mean, the biggest reason why we chose this character next, I would say, is that it is a character who is also married

to their axe, so to speak. is also married to their axe so to speak right they are married to their axe and their suckling babe it is what I personally as a tall gawky awkward pizza faced big nosed woman can tell you

feel such kin with we're starting Ash of Greyjoy next month, everyone. Yeah. Isn't that exciting? Yay, the crowd goes wild!

No? That was just me? Okay. As our friend and patron, Wolfman Zach, weed detective, who, if you listen to Not A Cast,

A-S-O-I-A-F, check them out next week. He will be on with them in the next couple weeks uh but our friend wolfman zach said these are going to be some horny chapters yeah in the announcement that uh folks got ahead of time over on the patreon but yes they're like these are going to be so horny i was like like, wow. Damn, called out already. He knows us. Eliana will be covering the Justin Massey portion of these episodes, and I will be covering her husband, Carl, second husband, next to the axe. Yeah. And I feel really good about that. I am excited for Asha. I think there's a couple of people have commented, you know, that we're going to maybe get to kind of the core, kind of that softer underside. Because when you think of Asha, you see this loud, charismatic kind of, you know, like, oh, I'm the I'm Valen's true heir.

And I think I think there's more there. I think there's more there that we're going to explore. Yeah. But so while you're waiting for that episode next week, like I said, we will not be bringing you a point of view chapter. However, I think it's technically a point of view chapter, right? It's the point of view of many forgotten characters in The Winds of Winter. Our gracious patrons are donating an episode to the public. We want to show you what being a Girls Gone Canon patron in the stranger and above tier is all about. pulled them they answered and we are

going to share with you an episode that we recorded for patrons that is about characters in the winds of winter broken apart by regional kind of areas that you might have forgotten about right like and their purpose that they're going to serve in the winds of winter these are people such as halice mullen aleria dane forley prester roland storm parmesan i mean parman gene crane and many other such as Halas Mullen, Illyria Dayne, Forley Prestor, Rollin Storm, Parmesan, I mean Parmin, Crane, and many other characters. Parmesan, Crane. Parmesan. And truly, Aliana forgot we even did this episode.

I did, actually. I was like, what? And I think Chloe thought I was joking at first. I was like, I forgot we did that. She's like, oh, interesting. You forgot? And I was like, I forgot we did that. She's like, oh, interesting. You forgot? And I was like, I really did, though. Well, this was voted on across, oh, God, like four different episodes.

There were a few other options. We won't tell you them now. But, well, I guess we can. It was House Valerian,ian mentorship in a song of ice and fire it's the only episode i remember the maiden vault there was i think one more uh was one of the free cities no no but everybody did say what no tyrosh no it's a mia dario tyrosh and more one of the best episodes that is worth patroning girls gone canon for alone and these episodes are available monthly for our stranger tier five dollar and up patrons they get a special episode every other month it's

a song of ice and fire every other other month we're doing his dark materials ask episodes and we have some of those coming up this month yes this month we are going to be doing another labelle sauvage episode and exciting news as we discuss labelle sauvage uh i got i finally was able to obtain my copy of the secret commonwealth the sequel to labelle sauvage which is a book in the series or trilogy called The Book of Dust which is a prequel series to His Dark Materials, the other series. Not a prequel. God damn it. That's true, you're right. The Secret Commonwealth is not a prequel.

Right. La Belle Sauvage is a prequel. Secret Commonwealth is a sequel. It's really confusing. It's a sandwich. I'm sorry the sandwich series the sandwich series of LaBelle sausage the beautiful sausage and the secret

sauce and anyways these are all part of the book of dust which sandwiches the His Dark Materials series

which we again also, also cover, and are going to be wrapping up the second book of. Yes, we'll be finishing The Subtle Knife this month for our His Dark Materials podcasting. That will be a Friday release at the end of the month, and we will actually be releasing these LaBelle Sauvage chapters to the public. We have a little bit of a backlog we'll work up, but come September, we might be releasing

a few until the TV show starts back up. So if you are looking for another series to read, to be emotionally invested in, to cry about, if A Song of Ice and Fire just isn't doing it for you anymore, if you're like, I am cried out, I offer you His Dark Materials

because I did not cry in last month's episode. No matter what Eliana would like you to believe, I did not cry in last month's episode. No matter what Eliana would like you to believe, I did not because I've never cried on this podcast. Chloe's also apparently never lied on this podcast, I guess, either. I have never done anything wrong in my entire life, Eliana. I saw that recently at work and I was like, this isn't nearly as funny to anyone but me but yeah so that's exciting uh speaking of things that are sad i finished the poppy war that one's heavy oh i've heard that's heavy and i have not touched it yet reading that series together with some of the good

folks of at learned hands on their uh community for the westerosi bar association of which i am a member i have to get my membership up soon i just kind of uh i've been absent from the old internet you know i'm like the cranky old lady that just like sleeps 13 hours a day speaking of communities though speaking of communities we are really excited because we will be granting access to our Discord for select patrons to beta test. And I think we're going to do that this weekend. If you're listening to this and you are a patron in the Chestnut and above tier, you might already be connected by the time this is going. Or you might have seen a message about being connected. have seen a message about being connected but there is a

special event happening this weekend that we would love for our patrons that will be beta testing the discord to hang out with us for it is a day where Eliana turns 21 years old yeah you guys you might not know this but I'm

turning 21 what's your first drink gonna be, Eliana? What was my first drink at 21? I had this big fish bowl and I had a whiskey sour maybe in one hand, and I think someone bought me a fish bowl at the

bar we were at. God, I didn't even get drunk. I was so mad. I didn't do anything actually on my 21st birthday because I think my grandfather died two days before, so was like depressing life sucks so i that was not never like that never ended up being a big deal for me because of that well we are going to try to give eliana a fun birthday maybe have some discord activities this weekend so look out for that message coming to you soon we are hoping to to grant access in September to our Thunder tier and above to casual streams, chatting and much more on Discord.

We are so excited to craft a little Discord community and I don't know, excited to do some streaming. I know Eliana and I both have those streaming card things now. So you want to come to our island on Animal Crossing? We're going to do it we're gonna animal cross we are gonna final fantasy 7 remake eliana's gonna suck at dark souls and i love that about her um i'm gonna kill some sims you know it's gonna be it's gonna be wild i have thoughts first of all first of all regarding dark souls so I'm doing okay on this new run through that I've started.

And it's kind of hard. All right. Adjusting to the different controls of the switch. Even my boyfriend, who's played it a lot, when I was like, here, try it on the switch. He's like, I can't fucking do anything with these controls. This is terrible. And he kept mashing the wrong things. I can't fucking do anything with these controls.

This is terrible. And he kept mashing the wrong things. And he actually like, you know, used to be able to like do the game quite quickly. Right. Played it all the time. So in my defense, I digress.

It's going to be a blast. We would love for you to join us. So like I said, come September, we are hoping that we will go big and grant access to everyone that is in the Thunder tier and above over at Patreon.com slash Girls Gone Canon. But for now, we'll be beta testing for our friends

in the Sweet Food and Zorse tier. So come on down, check out the message you'll get very soon, and we'll go from there. Yeah. But until then, we have some emails and tweets of note yes and we got this email from a friend named sedona now they wrote us this and about 20 minutes later eliana and myself were on the noticast live stream tuning in this was this past monday and we saw a very similarly worded question to this so i i'm going

to give this good faith and say it was not double ask to them especially because listen eliana and i are gonna have really good answers for this i know we will so eliana this is from our friend sedona and sedona asked which of the dire wolves is sorry dire woofers is fluffiest and why is it canon well this is a good question it's an important question and it's one that we should all be discussing constantly and I don't know why I don't know why we haven't been talking about it as much. And I think, this is a sad answer, I think it would be Lady because Lady's hair was constantly being brushed. Yes, and that actually, look, I'm a cosmetologist. I'm licensed in a state in this country to do cosmetology. And usually you know me, I would never brag about anything that the state would

let me do, but I am. And I can tell you that when you brush your hair, you're kind of combing down the follicle and your hair is literally a pine cone. So imagine a pine cone. If you do things to your hair, like heat damage it or color it, it's going to be an upside down pine cone with the ridges open, right? Like that's what your follicle is going to look like. But if you're brushing that and you're not adding damage to it when you brush it it smooths the follicle and you're gonna have a floofy coat so lady is a great answer because sansa took great care of her dire wolf i would also add that gray wind is very regal or was very regal rest your goddamn soul and i would imagine gray wind would also be floofy now a lot of people want

to say ghost but I imagine ghost and shaggy dog and probably summer as well would be very they probably have matted fur because some of them are out in the wild doing things etc their environment uh living north of the wall I can tell you that probably would not do wonders for your hair. You would have very dry doggo hair. So yes, I would say Lady in Grey Wind, probably the floofiest. Can you give me your assessment on Nymeria's fluff? I just hope that Nymeria is somewhere getting her fluff braided by the other wolves in her pack. Fair. But I have a feeling that like her fur is probably coated with blood so that's true

i'm just saying like lady and gray wind had the most uh reason to be floofiest they had the most show up for and blood the rest of them are like yeah we don't care it's quarantine bitches i've had enough experience with blood to know that it does not make things floofier no not at all anyway so i'm glad that we have agreed on which dire wolf we think is the floofiest unfortunately it sounds like they're both like the dead ones but it sounds like it's a canon maybe floofiness is a death sentence that might be a theory sedona you might have just helped us get across that, that if your wolf is well taken care of, you die. Or your wolf dies, sorry. Wow. Only death may pay for

flu. Sansa will never die. Now that we've uncovered the answers, the canon answers to this very important question, we also have another canon thing to do, our lightning round. And we did it a little different this time. Chloe, can you walk us through the method to your madness? Yes. So obviously, we left off in the last chapter with Eriohotah. And we have a

lot to finish, right? We have a Feast for Crows still that finishes out after that chapter. And we also have a Dance with Dragons because this chapter is in a Dance with Dragons, not a Feast for Crows. So there's one in in one so what we're going to do is we are only going to hit some really relevant chapters on our way into the watcher and we're going to start that in a feast for crows and then we're going to hit a dance with dragons up until this chapter so first off in a feast for crows is the soiled knight i'm sure you haven't forgotten it quite yet it was very, but a white knight has a secret rendezvous with royalty,

one with layers of guilt attached. Truly, it could be anyone, but you all know it's Aerys Oakheart. Yes, and then the one with the secret rendezvous is the Queenmaker. Princess Arianne plans to crowd Myrcella at Hellholt, but Darkstar's

sword and the arrival of Aeria Ha have something else to say about that. They sure do. The Princess in the Tower is the next chapter we'll cover. Arianne is imprisoned for weeks as penance for her plotting, and her father comes to her revealing a much bigger plan. Vengeance, justice, fire, and blood. And that of course leads us into Adawadaada affectionately a dance with dragons yes we get the merchant's man in this book quentin martell arrives in volantis with his companions ready to do what it takes to get to marine

the lost lord lord john connington makes his acting debut in a dance with dragons after losing tyrian he presents ratgar targaryen's son agon to the golden company who has his own plans on how his takeover of westeros should go slightly influenced by tyrian also john con has Also, Jon-Khan has greyscale. Wow. Then we have the Windblown. Quentyn and his companions Quent-panions? Why didn't I think of that before? join the Windblown, led by the Tattered Prince,

in hopes of joining up with Daenerys Targaryen. But the catch is that they must turn their cloak to do so. Ah, what's honor? That, of course, leads us to the Watcher in Adawada. The Dornish put on a show for Balan's swan, but Doran later clues the snakes and Arianne in to his plotting, finally. They don't mean to take the Lannisters sitting down. And so the chapter starts off with everyone has gathered around to see the present

delivered to Dorne. It's in an ebony box clasped with fine metals, nobles, snakes, all of who's who from court. They're all in attendance. What's in the box? Alright, anyways. What's in the box? Delivered the package.

That movie fucked me up. And the corridor holds heavily manicured breath as they are about to find out what is inside yeah this is kind of the first real event we see with team martel right like this is a public social event we see many feasts throughout the story we get tons of layers of cabbons glazed in this and that and garlic stuffed and roasted in pies. But this right here shows that maybe Dorne really isn't that different from most of Westeros, right? Like, it's definitely world building on Dorne's spiciness. But maybe they're not so different.

They are plotting and scheming and having symbolic dinners where people are, you know, making allies and breaking allies. And it's very interesting. It kind of reminds me of a much more subtle version of the dinner scene in Dune, in the first Dune book. If you haven't read Dune, there is a very politically charged scene that is pretty much, if you read the book and you're bored

and you can't get through it, when you hit that dinner scene, oh, you'll know, because that is just like an electric wire. There's so much political savvy happening, people plotting, all within a meal. And that's what this feels like. This chapter is deep and full of that. Some of the examples of how that politics is playing out is like Doran is flanked by

Arianne and Ellaria and Arianne's at a place of high honor. Maester Calliote sets the box though at the foot of his chair, opening it for all to see. Sir Balin Swan was tout as a drawn bow. The captain of guards observed. This new white knight was not so tall nor comely as the old one, but he was bigger across the chest, burlier, his arms thick with muscle muscle his snowy cloak clasped at throat by two swans and a silver brooch one was ivory the other onyx and it seemed to ariel hota as if the two of them were fighting the man who wore them looked a fighter too this one will not die so easy as the other he will not charge into my axe the way sir aries, he will stand behind his shield and make me come at him.

If it came to that, Hota would be ready. His long axe was sharp enough to shave with. Ooh. I love that there's a line where all the rest had eyes only for the chest while we're getting so many of these observations from Aryo, including, sizing up bail and swan part of it is i think you know of course yes as we discussed last episode george's workaround uh for giving us a perspective of doran but not giving too much that's going on in the head of like doran but it's also showing us where ario's attention lays and it's not preoccupied with vengeance and being like is it the skull in the box like in the way that others are additionally you know that that aspect of ario

sizing up those around him like bail and swan i think it shows us again like and is reinforcing something we discussed before and that matt and ak once again talked about on that stream where Ario's always kind of figuring out how good of a fighter is everyone around us and using that as a sort of metric for how good they are and conveying that to the reader. But also I think it's interesting that Balan is, you know, he's from the Marcher Lords who tend to be at odds with Adornish. and I think though based on Balin's background we may find out that he might be actually a little more similar to Aryo than either of them would expect more than that's a great point which is interesting because he kind of seems to relate to him right and feels kind of sorry for this sucker who holds his own a lot better than as we've talked about Aerys Oakheart uh who is young young dumb jock right maybe in this kind of sense yeah right maybe as we've talked about Ares Okart who is young young dumb jock right maybe in this kind of sense yeah right maybe

as we discussed there's a lot that comes right back to feast in this chapter the skull is resting and it is grinning on a bed of black velvet Doran commands that it be set on the pedestal and he has tears in his eyes Maester Kaleo is not quite

tall enough to reach the pedestal by the has tears in his eyes maester caliot is not quite tall enough to reach the pedestal by the way so ariel tries to help him but obara reaches there first and does it and there's a little parallel here right that back in jamie one i knew it wasn't too long ago when we visited that knight who has a duty but only the dead are happy right we have this line in jamie one a feast for Crows. The vapors rising from the corpse were making Pysel's eyes water. The flesh, as the flesh dries, the muscles grow taut and pull his lips upward. That is no smile, only a drying, that is all.

A drying. Only the dead are happy. Tywin's dead. The mountain's dead. So why is no one's heart in this court full? Yeah. The tears in his eyes gets me. We talked about the relationship between Arya and Doran last episode and a little bit regarding Calliote. But it's nice, we see that reinforcement again throughout this chapter. The loyalty that Calliote shows doran i think and

the care that he gives doran like caliote has a lot of concern for doran's well-being as we can see and i think that detail of his fingers shaking as he opens the box almost shows his own anxiety about it it's not just like oh i'm nervous because like what if there's a skull in here like that's normal right for maester like that's literally part of the job description. But I kind of read it as, like, Calliote is just so close to this family. We don't know where he's from, right? Like, a lot of the maesters. That he also just, at the same time, like, longs for vengeance in the same way.

Or maybe some sort of payment for their own pain. It reminds me a bit of the maester that catelyn had right that kind of familial bond and how of course lewin has been with cat for so long now too yes there's definitely some lewin parallels with calio in my opinion just a little bit like they do the best and i hope we do get to see him again i'm not sure and i know we'll probably get to this but I'm not really sure the context of how we would see him but he's like not I guess super important I just

like appreciate Kellywood's presence you know I like his egghead I mean eggheads are indeed important actually in the story so Tyene innocently asks Sir Balin if the mountains dying was long and hard and he says it was heard throughout the castle for days, his screaming.

Nymeria, of course, is like, oh, does that trouble you, sir? And she's wearing this very inappropriate outfit. I know this because one time I dressed up as Nymeria for a convention-esque thing for fun with some friends, and I decided this was the outfit that I was going to imitate. Let that one sink in. She's wearing fine thin spun like yellow and gold and it's very transparent. Now Balan's uncomfortable. He's looking everywhere but the titty. You know what I mean? And also downstairs too. He's like no don't look don't look just look at her eyes uh but erio hota is like i'm happy because she usually wears blades concealed within her gowns and her dresses so this dress reveals any secrets and from this he can see that she is garbed not to kill balin her eyes are up here! Swan.

I'm just imagining how would Aries have dealt with this? Anyway. So since last week, after recording this episode, Matt, aka JoeMagician, and I have just been on our own also going down some rabbit holes about Arya Hota. Rabbit

Holtas. You know, I gave it a go. I don't know how I feel about it. I don't want to fire you, but like, I'm thinking about it. I'm on the nice. And you know, one of the rabbit holes we went down had to do with

another interpretation that Matt made as we were talking that I thought was really interesting when it came to the blood oranges. I think there's a lot of things that what's so strong about the writing of the blood oranges in there as symbolism is it carries a lot of weight. It does a lot of the heavy lifting for the themes running throughout this book and for characters all in there and just is able to convey all that at once and some of it is exactly what you were saying about death and blood

some of it is regarding uh feldman's essays right about timing and overrideness which we'll see later on in the chapter as you know they're all like the time is right and matt also pointed out that hota's regret in not eating the oranges could also point to being about this forbidden fruit and hota's sexuality and denying himself that sexuality especially because a feast for crows has a lot of those again uh edenic overtones and i thought that was really interesting, because I don't really see Arya Hotha express any sort of sexual desire in his chapters, which, you know, I think that is interesting. Like, I don't know that he has any vows about celibacy that he has to keep right now, right? An interesting comparison, when you consider that the title of this chapter is

The Watcher, and putting it next to other chapters like Jon's, which are in this book, where they're very much the Watcher on the Walls, they're guards of the realm, who some of them are forced into that position, much in the same way that, not exactly in the same way, but, you know, Aryo was forced to join the Holy Guard, and are thus sworn to celibacy. guard but and are thus they're like sworn to celibacy and we were discussing how ario's enslavement in norvos likely led to the repression of his sexuality and like i i don't want to seem like i'm erasing the possibility that ario hota could be asexual it's more that i'm reluctant to to go with that being the case when there's all these other like oppressive and traumatic elements and his upbringing and intimacy which i'll come back to later on in this episode towards the end but i do think it's interesting that ariohotasi's sexuality through that lens of

weaponry right like he's like yeah it's great that nam is wearing this skimpy outfit because that means she's concealing less weapons and also he recognizes later on what arianne is trying to do with baile and swan when it comes to using her sexuality especially because he saw how uh things ended up with ari's oak heart yeah she weaponized her sexuality against aries and i think there is definitely something in this that ariel hota has lived a life where his sexuality was weaponized against him we don't necessarily know what he was trained by the bearded priests right it's very vague all the things they taught him they taught him to serve obey protect but they did brand his skin right and that is a move that is to take ownership over someone's skin if you're putting

a hot brand into someone's flesh um it is very much so i don't know if i'd say sexual in a positive way but it is taking their skin and marking it as your own and so for him it has never been his body to give we talked about last episode is he technically free of his slavery but i would argue that the bearded priest trained him to go into this not only was he sold to them but he was then sold again for their use right like he didn't just stumble into malario's family's care so he has never been able to harness that sexuality. As we've discussed, he's never been allowed to harness it. And it was harnessed against him. He had a hot metal brand pressed against him. I think that's something that really stands here. I think that

also is a big reason why he is an observer. Some argue that some say he's the camera that rides as we've discussed and this chapter of course is very meta because it's called the watcher we're seeing all of this through erio hota's eyes he is watching uh everything going on observing everything going on and he's not actively participating and i think that comes through very harshly because he has never really been allowed to doran has definitely given him some agency but even the way that others treat him in these chapters it's apparent that he is not an equal yeah and I don't want to like take away from the possibility that Arya could have regained or

you know any of his uh agency we we just don't know right we haven't seen enough of him and his chapters to really make that call. But you know what you're saying about the repression in the way that the bearded priests tried to redirect or suppress that sexuality in the branding. There's also of course the way that it seems like some of it was directed then into into fighting and and their order in that, you know, he thinks constantly that his axe is his wife, right? That's where it all gets directed into. Yeah, and I'd say that, as we've discussed before, dissociation is probably one of the most powerful things that saves people from heavy trauma, right? It is a safety net. It's not a good or healthy safety net. It creates much bigger

problems later. But we see it in almost every single POV character in this story because everyone is going through stressful, dramatic soap opera, medieval bullshit every time you turn a corner. And I'd say that, you know, when Erioh Hota was having a hot brand pressed against his skin and his flesh was melting and marring and becoming scarred within seconds and cauterizing on him. Like, I'd say he probably did a fair bit of dissociating.

And that kind of tends to make you think, you know, like not of the flesh as how you or I might think of our flesh all the time or consistently. Look at John, look at Jamie and how their duty and sex. look at Jaime and how their duty and sex and Jaime has obviously treated sex very in a toxic manner with how he and Cersei interact and what he's been told he's supposed to act as a knight of the Kingsguard uh Jon not very healthy sex life yes they're both having sex even though their order says no but not in a healthy manner and for Arya it seems to be the opposite thing he's not having sex not because his order told him to but because he's never been able to own his flesh absolutely nim basically says regarding the mountain like good i'm glad that he suffered when she learns that he spent his last days screaming and balin argues that a knight should die with a sword in his hand

i love that it reminds me of aries of course dying recently uh sword in hand charging like a dumb idiot big dumb blonde golden retriever right or something but when we look at ario i think this is foreshadowing for balan's death for sure like a knight should die with a sword in his hand i am sure that balan will be dead either by the time we get to the chapter in the next book where he dies or maybe off the page we don't know we don't know um but i also wonder if this is some foreshadowing for area hota with his axe maybe you know maybe because he's not a knight but he has taken knight vows in a way in a way balan says that poison is a foul and filthy way to kill, which Titan smiles at. Hotah then watches her deft, graceful fingers closely as well, like, oh god, is this happening? And I think it's interesting that Arya doesn't really care how the mountain died, and I do

want to rest on this idea that the mountain quote-unquote deserves an honorable death, allegedly, according to Balon, as a knight versus the poison that he got. Per, you know, whatever Balan thinks are the rules of knighthood and stuff. And I agree with Adornish, you know, why should the Mountain get an honorable death when he was such a dishonorable person? Like, he gave such fucking gruesome deaths to the Martells' family members. deaths to the martell's family members and i think honestly and i like the composure of the martell's when balin says this incredibly insensitive thing is very admirable they just like reply passive aggressively which is more than i would have done in their position yeah not wrong you're not wrong some of them like bit their tongue you know probably and they're

like excuse me it was very much a game at this dinner as we're about to get into as doran kind of steps in and arianne takes part when they're sitting there at the feast later later on and even here um as we kind of bump into all this i mean we're about to have a big toast that is very highly political yes doran's frowning at this exchange right he's uh reminding balin that well i mean the mountain was a brute who murdered elia my sister and her children violently and he says that he only hopes that elia may find some peace now and is glad that the lannisters have proved the truth of their boast and paid this old blood debt interesting they're blind seneschal ricasso he lifts his glass to tommen proclaiming all hail king tommen and of course blood red strong wine is being handed out amongst the nobles.

Like, if that's not some heavy coded metaphors, right? It's blood red, drink the blood of our people. Doran is drinking his own wine, which is laced with milk of the poppy. I'd love that. Many people accept the wine and drink for the little king. Arianne is one of them. Ellaria, Balon Swann, Lady Jordordane and the lord of god's grace lord alerion as well ariel hota does not partake because he wishes to keep his senses sharp in

case he has to but the list of people who do not drink is kind of significant i want to break them down uh that the nation is quite obviously decided and most chief among these non-drinkers of course is the sand snakes most of those who did drink totally make sense for the most part right lady jordane drinks i imagine that's due to courtesy it is surprising though because her heir did go to king's landing with oberon's crew miria the rest of them totally make sense right uh they they will play big roles moving forward in arianne's plot the people that didn't drink or they've already played roles damon sand did not drink as we learn later he took arianne's virginity but he's also the heir to house lyrian so his father did drink but he did

not he was arrested for demanding the release of the sand snakes and later on will find him as part of arianne's party when she leaves dorn tremond garglin he's the lord of salt shore and he accompanied ober into king's landing dagos man woody the lord of king's grave also accompanied ober into king's landing and he brought his sons as well the oler's ilaria's family they accompanied ober into king's landing but they of, have a bloody history, and their history is only small, maybe next to House Wyle. Harlan Tyrell's army in the very first Dornish War disappeared in the sands outside of Helholt. The Helholt, of course, was abandoned when they arrived, so they left, and then it seems the Ollers did them in. Rhaenys and Meraxes as well were lost in

Hellholt and never recovered. House Wael is one of the many houses that feast Balon Swan on the way into Dorne. They are a little, how you say, wael. The first Dornish war, they ambushed Lord Orys Baratheon's forces, and Lord Weil committed some pretty crazy atrocities at Alice Oakheart and John Caffron's wedding. He castrated the groom, raped and trafficked the bride into slavery, and killed most of the guests. So, not great. Those are choices.

Yeah. And last but not least of who did not drink were the Fowler twins. They were found abed with Nymeria, if you remember, when Oberyn's death was announced. They are Sand Snake and Oberyn aligned, is what I take from that. And they often feuded in history with the Ironwoods, which to me says they're likely to take the Arianne side of things, right? Because the Ironwoods are very much aligned with Quentin. So just a little breakdown on those

guys i thought that was interesting most of the people that did not drink were people that went to king's landing with obrin yeah that is interesting um you know they took that very personally and they're like we know who you are right carrying that all the way back here nymeria and tyene also declined the wine, as you said, amongst the sand snakes, but Obara takes it and spills it on the ground. Much, much more explicit gesture, then storms from the hall,

and Erian goes after her. There's a line here of Obara would never turn her rage on the little princess Hotanyu. They are cousins, and she loves her well. Hmm. It's a sweet line when you think about it but at the same time i feel like there's something more in there um we talk a lot about of course ario being the watcher in this chapter and it reminds me a bit of dantos from

sansa 4 and clash when dantos says i hear all sorts of things as a fool I never heard when I was a knight. They talk as though I'm not there. So yes, he is seeing some of these little observations, like Obara leaving and Arianne going after her, and he thinks that she'd never turn her rage on the princess. But I worry that Erio takes that as canon for himself as well. Like, kind of wondering if Yeah, but is she going to turn her rage on you someday? He's still very much so an outsider to the Sand Snakes, as we've seen, they don't respect him. As we saw with the little Obara in the Stoney Hall area and the arches with him in the last chapter. He wasn't. I mean, when he came here, he came with Malario. He wasn't, he's not Dornish. He never will be. He'll never be one of them as much as Doran may try to.

Hotah might be relying on the Sand Snakes loving him like family, but look at how they treat Doran, who actually is blood. Yeah, I don't know. I mix. I don't know i i mix i don't know that hotel will think that about obara right every time he's looking at the sand snakes he's like all right one of them's dangerous i'm ready all the time one of the four are dangerous someone might be up to something at any moment fingers crossed that it's sorella so couldn't be obara yeah i just also kind of wonder what the breakdown of the dornish chapters are going to look like in in the winds and how it's all gonna uh be dispersed right are we just gonna lean heavily on well we will talk about that in a little bit because i have some ideas especially regarding tyene and oh and oh gosh, so many ideas. As we

get to the end, we'll talk about it. Because technically, George said he's not going to add more POVs. Anyways. No, he's not, and I rely on that absolutely when I think about wins all the time. But for now, the feast is continuing. It's going late with some really delicious food.

And as Chloe points out, we cannot in good taste leave it out of the episode. And why would we? As, again, food is good. Seven courses in honor of the seven gods and the seven Kingsguard. Except there's, like, what, like, four left? Five left of the Kingsguard at most? I'm not going to question someone giving me more food.

Well, I guess I would if I thought they were trying to poison me. But regardless, there's soup made with egg and lemon. And I'm over here just screaming, give me the aviolemono. I make a really mean aviolemono. Really? I will make it for you sometime. And really good cabbage rolls with a great lemon Greek sauce. Anyways, really good.

I love the dessert, though, because it is sassy. It's sherbet to cool down the mouth we didn't talk about the other food hang on oh i'm sorry i thought you did that already go ahead no i was just we were just on the first course long stuffed green peppers with cheese and onions lamprey pies honey glazed capons a whisker fish fish which is huge i'm pretty sure that's just a catfish just a cute name for a catfish a catfish. Just a cute name for a catfish. Actually, catfish is also a cute name, regardless. Savory snake stew, simmered with dragon peppers,

blood oranges, and a dash of venom for spice. I want that. I want that. A lot of these. I want all of these. But savory snake stew, and I believe they have several different types of snake, it said, in the stew.

Chunks of it cooked and then simmered down with some dragon peppers and blood oranges and venom for spice. Oh my god, I want that. Do you not want that? No, I want all of these. And it's served with sherbet to cool down afterwards. And that sounds delicious. And then after that, this part's even better. They get

a sponge sugar skull. Every person gets their own little sugar skull, and when you break inside of it, there's sweet custard and bits of fruit of plum and cherry are in it, and that sounds delectable. It does. I know that Bale and Swan is like, excuse me?

Why would you serve me a skull? This is distasteful. And then I'm in the corner like, no, it's very tasteful. Thank you. It's hilarious. And Arianne's like, oh, it's just the cook's joke. The cook's making a little joke. It's fine. They're just trying to flirt. She actually shows up

just in time for the stuffed peppers, which I also make a mean stuffed pepper. And Erio notes, she's his little princess, but she's a woman now because she's in scarlet silks and she's scheming and stuff, you know. But he does think she seems a little chased, a little reserved, a little withheld since the Queenmaker. And of course, her time of solitude in Princess in the Tower. It does seem like there's something

else beneath the surface he thinks some sort of confidence maybe that her father put in her that he did not know of yeah which actually is kind of like soft warm but anyways it reminds me of this impression that she's been like chastened right it reminds me of circe at the end of this very book and you think like oh she's been really really humbled by this entire experience and learned her lesson and then robert strong appears and she's like learn her lesson not me and that's aria especially uh in the context of um yes of course of course the mountain's dead kind of i mean he is probably worse fate yeah i feel even the way like the way that

kevin in the epilogue says you know like oh like she's finished now that's cersei she's a finished woman you know her day's done her vagina's dusty we're sending her back to casterly rock you know what i mean like that's the way the conversation goes and it does feel like cersei won't do any crime anymore and that's how this feels to me like arianne's good now she's not gonna act up she's not gonna act out she's fine things are good she's really political and quiet and smart and studious now and i'm like oh arian, you got some shit to do in the next book, don't you? Yes, she does. But at least now, you know, she's got a good, strong relationship with her father. While they're working on it. It's decent. They're healing, kind of. Except they're gonna die.

Nature's healing. Arianne gets back to her seat of honor she's between balin and her dad and she's all like starting to get a little flirtatious with swan she whispers in his ear he doesn't respond and he is sweating bullets at this dornish food like he's like oh god i'm gonna die someone get me some milk and the spun sugar skulls get served and Eliotta said, he's like kind of on edge. He's all like, am I being mocked? Is this a jape? And Arianne's all, no, no, princess of Dorne charisma, it's fine, touching his hand, saying it's the cook's joke. And this is where Erio does think. This one is not so easily seduced as was his sworn brother.

Sir Ares was a boy despite his years. This one is a man and wary. Ario remembers that when the bearded priests had drilled him on Westerosi culture and language, it was way different from when he actually landed in Dorne, where they spoke too fast, and their wine's too sour, and their women are too lewd. There's an element of how this is written where I think that this is actually portrayed as a memory to Aryo of when he first arrived in Dorne, especially with that emphasis on was. Because he also thinks that now

he could eat any food that a Dornishman could. He's like, whatever, I can take the spice level. This is normal now. And I think it speaks to how Aryo has very much assimilated in Dornish culture. Like, he might note how people are dressed, but he doesn't really judge whether he thinks, like, and he might be like, yeah, I guess it's

weird, but he doesn't, like, judge it, right? He's more just like, okay, interesting, that's the outfit we're wearing today, but he doesn't, like, he's not scandalized by any of it. He's very much adjusted to the culture. But, you know, on the flip side i think this is just something george hasn't really thought about arianne uh quentin and tristane

right they're all not only dornish they're also norvoshi but there's no sort of sense of that culture being ingrained in them uh and that sense of like their mother is from the free cities and them learning about any of it or really thinking about it about it at all they just think of themselves as only dornish and i think that's really interesting as someone who has immigrant parents and grew up with like a lot of friends who are very multicultural. And I think it's just something George doesn't think about or wouldn't think about to write. No, that's a great point. He wouldn't think from that perspective at all.

And it is interesting, like the choice for casting for Erioh Hota in the show, I actually thought worked really well. I mean, Dorne in the show, besides the whole plot part, you know, they kind of like if they had just left the plot thing out, like the costuming was gorgeous. The setting was perfect, right? Like where they filmed in Spain was beautiful. And I think they really could have built that world so well to that medium on TV.

They did. I mean, just the costuming alone, it really was gorgeous. But it's interesting to me that Norvos, I mean, from what we know of it, it's not that different, right? Like, it's he has paler skin, he comments on several times through this. It's, it's interesting that the Free Cities and that like Norvos is not very well developed. And I know that we're going to explore that when we do get into our Free Cities episode a little more. But I don't know.

The culture is just not as loud as I expected it to be, and I really hope that he expands before ending Erio's chapters. Yeah, I mean, I understand why he might not. I mean, we've got only two books to wrap everything up in. But it's just interesting that none of the martell children think about it they think about their maybe like where's mom but they don't think about being norvoshi yeah and to be fair uh on the actual meta level that we're really speaking if we're really to talk about it in this manner it's it's likely george just didn't have it plotted out at that point as we know his gardening kind of state of writing,

this came late in the game of Thrones. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow. Yeah, I mean, it is book five. Oh my god. Anyways, sorry. I just thought about the books and the timing and the number of them. Literally, again.

All 13 of them? All 13 of them. Balin's journey into Dorne had been very complicated, we learn. He was feasted at every corner, as I've mentioned. When he arrived, neither Ser Aerys nor Princess Myrcella greeted him. He's likely getting a little suspicious. As we get towards midnight, Dorne kind of starts interacting with Balon and is like, how familiar are you with the letter cersei

had you bring to me of course balin has a reddit a bajillion times and b says that he was briefed by the queen that he may be tasked with bringing marcella back to king's landing to visit her brother who misses her so arienne of course is super sad she's like prince tristane would be so heartbroken without his companion and bail encounters tristain should come to the capital and befriend tommen yes of course the iron throne would love for tristain to come and join their horde of hostage children that they're they've been amassing or trying to it's kind of insulting in a way it's like do you really think they're that fucking stupid yeah you know what i mean it's like last time they sent people to the capital

from dorn they died hey and you know what the last time too yeah so they're like third time's the charm like absolutely not we're not sending more children um but yeah i do like this detail of that balan swan's retinue right was delayed on their way down it feels like a they it feels like dorn sort of imposed on balan swan's party what was taking renly so long to get to in his party as they were making their way during um during the war they were feasting everywhere and stopping and also it took robert right a long time to get to the north but they were like we can do that strategically and they did that to Bael and Swan and they're like we're gonna buy ourselves more time to cover up Arianne's mistakes it was honestly I think it was a smart it was a smart quick strategy on the part of Doran yeah and it's a really flimsy plan as we're about to learn it's

totally put forward by Cersei Wright as like this skinny plan she thinks she can just like get rid of doran really easily as a problem and it's funny to me uh because doran is like oh tristane should see the world you're right balen and balen's sweating he's not even eating like ariel notices he didn't even have the snake stew ariel thinks and the hall is super cooled off and there's so many hints of these things that get revealed when we get to this chapter's end. And I think it's really well written. It's sharp. The themes connect to the happenings in these other plots in Dorne,

where last episode we talked and the episode before that with Ares, we kind of talked about how Feast was a little packed full and rushed, right? Like it was like, oh, I'm trying to world build all of a sudden for this huge plot I want to have happen. A Dance with Dragons pulls it off.

This is a very sharp chapter, has you on the edge. Because Doran then moves on and it's obvious he's playing with his food. He moves on to the rest of the letter and he's like, ah, you know, Doran, we do need to come be on the council. But he's not sure if he's actually up for the trip he's like i can't really do all that my joints we might have to travel by sea and immediately balan's like oh by sea what what are you there's pirates in the stepstones and there's storms in the fall so i don't think we can actually travel by sea that ruins all the plans queen sir i mean what

balan is like i don't do politics uh in balan's defense though they're not necessarily untrue especially because we do know there's like the corsair king right apparently making doing whatever hijinks he's doing on the stepstones and how we know that their involvement can have big political ramifications from uh the dance the other dance, not this book, the Dance of the Dragons, Civil War. Anyway, Doran agrees. He's like, yes, of course, pirates, storms, perhaps

Balin, maybe you should just return the way you came then. And he says that they can talk more about it in the morrow when they visit the princess in the water gardens. Balin says he is eager to see Myrcella and to visit the water gardens balan says he is eager to see marcella and to visit the water gardens as well and doran gives him the history of sea world of sea world what the fuck eliana even i'm like what the fuck he gives him the history of the water gardens i

don't know i was like how can i make the water gardens sound more like a water park oh god yes and you may know it but we will reiterate it now doran says one of my ancestors had them built to please his targaryen bride and free her from the dust and heat of sunspear daenerys was her name she was sister to king daeron the good and it was her name. She was sister to King Daeron the Good, and it was her marriage that made Dorne part of the Seven Kingdoms. The whole realm knew that the girl loved Daeron's bastard brother, Daemon Blackfyre, and was loved by him in turn. But the king was wise enough to see the good of thousands must come before the desires of two, even if those two were dear to him. It was Daenerys who filled the gardens with laughing children, her own children at the start, but later the sons and daughters of lords and landed knights

were brought in to be companions to the boys and girls of princely blood. And one summer's day, when it was scorching hot, she took pity on the children of her grooms and cooks and serving men and invited them to use the pools and fountains too, a tradition that has endured till this day ah even glossing past some of the obvious kind of daenerys talk like he's very obviously being like ah here's a story about daenerys which is great because by the end of the chapter we kind of see his plans a little fuller right like he is banking on an Aegon he is also kind of banking on

a Daenerys but not as much right not as much he's more worried about what is at hand and I think this whole passage especially later with the retelling and what he tells the snakes and Arianne and Eryo this will be a nice mirror for the Winds of Winter specifically King Daeron's court we hear a lot about how it grew increasingly Dornish as time went on. Daeron II's heir looks Dornish. Rumors float around court that he's illegitimate.

And of course, Aegon IV gives Daemon Blackfyre over Daeron, and that causes mistrust and suspicion. These things, the rumors of illegitimate heirs, the sudden change from dornish enemies to dornish allies are what led to a black fire rebellion and uprising and this is pretty much what we're going into in the next book right illegitimate heirs dornish enemies

turned into dornish allies the black fire rebellion is nigh, my friend. Yes, absolutely. And, you know, speaking of other mirrors, right, there's a line, there's that line there about Darren having married Daenerys to Meryn Martell, who I'm not sure if he's named in this chapter, or if he's like gets named later on. And the need to put aside love for marriages, for peace. I think it's very much kind of like what we're seeing in Dany's chapters, kind of right now in dance or around this time as she's navigating, like, whether to marry his dar, what she's got to do about Quentyn's, like, surprise marriage proposal, and then also her love for Daario. And what's the right call, right? For the good of thousands.

Finding a realm together? I mean, Daenerys has already tried to do that. Yeah, she's trying to do that for the peace in Meereen. Well, the good news is she does not have to marry if she just comes over on her big old flying winged babies. I'm just saying. Like if you stood on that dragon and said to someone like, this is my castle now, I would say yes. I would not make you marry me.

I'd make you marry me, but I digress. Good for her. You know what I mean? Yeah, that's a discussion for different chapters. Doran must retire now, though. He requests that Obara wheel him out and the other snakes join and bid their uncle good night immediately obara hounds him with accusations that he cannot mean to centristate in marcella that he's giving away their leverage and doran tells her you're being foolish if you hold your tongue till the place where no one can hear us maybe i'll tell you some things i will say at

least obara does slow down when doran like chastises her he's like for the love you bear me please slow down it hurts so much and you know her with her short fast angry strides as we know she was like get this bitch to the solar yeah and then she's like okay she slows down and I appreciate that she's like oh yeah my bad

so Tain and Obara both kind of mock him. They're like, you're not going to do anything. And Arianne actually sticks up for him. They're like, she says, you do him wrong. Once the doors of the solar have been closed, Dorian is wheeled to face them. His swollen purple joints are on display and Arianne moves to help her dad. Maester Caliot offers him milk of the poppy but he's like

i would need a handle to deal with this pain big mood and he sends the maester off for the evening obara takes the skull from caliot as he exits and nim and obara start to argue if this is actually the mountain interesting interesting um the man was eight feet tall there is not another like him in all of westeros if any such appears again circe lannister will be exposed as a liar before all the seven kingdoms she would be an utter fool to risk that what could she hope to gain freedom i think that's a interesting quote right it's something we should examine because so thanks to the a dance of dragons and of course the winds of winter sample chapters we actually know that cersei and marjorie survived their trials our good friend brendan b fish did a

write-up over at reddit that we'll link about this uh that kind of puts the chronology in order but a few of the things are in the epilogue of A Dance with Dragons, of course, Mace says that he means to descend on Storm's End after the trial is over. And then, of course, Kevin says that two queens are going to be tried for high treason and that his niece has elected trial by battle, and Sir Robert Strong will champion her. Later in the epilogue, we get the line, Let the castle pass from one pretender to another. Why should that trouble us? I shall recapture it after my daughter's innocence is proved. From Mace.

So fast forward, no big spoilers, but in The Winds of Winter, REN 2, we get this line. Or two lines, I should say. There's an army descending on Storm's End from King's Landing. You'll want to be safe inside the walls before the battle. So we can assume that since an army is descending on Storm's End, Margaery was proven innocent at a trial. And Cersei's fate is also hinted at in some Winds of Winter sample chapters in Mercy where we're told that how long do you think we'll be here longer than you'd like the old man replied if he goes back without gold the queen will have Ser Harris Swift's head this supposes Cersei is

now in charge in King's Landing again and we kind of know she doesn't have anyone standing in front of her, right? She's ended pretty much any of the people who know or have big evidence that Robert Strong is Gregor, except for the Tyrells, and I have a sneaking suspicion getting rid of the Tyrells in the first half of the book might be pretty easy. When the Tyrells are out of the picture, it's, god, that's going to be a horror show for the snakes if they learn Gregor's alive or if he's still alive, and Cersei has to win her trial. The High Sphero wants her to. Any chance he has at reinstating the faith and getting power comes from her negligence and Tommen is a puppet king. This is precisely where Tyene's going to come into the plot and the one's a winner for those chapters. And we will, of course, cover that in a bit. Brennan B. Fish also advocates

Lancel will be the faith's champion and that he'll die at Cersei's hand, which has been pushed since A Clash of Kings, which, you know, at the trial. And I agree with that, especially with Kevin's recent death at the end of A Dance of Dragons. I think Lancel is going to be very incensed to fight for the faith for his father against Cersei. Yeah, I think there's an aspect of that. And also, maybe we can even see a little bit of Lancel and Ari's Ockhart parallels, you know, like, maybe seeing it as a way to restore his honor, but also not quite wanting to live. But maybe he'll be like, my god will protect me. And it's gonna be like i don't know dude arizo cart wanted to die um but yeah i there's a lot all of that going on right now though tyene's reiterating her confidence in oberon's poison saying like i know what poison

he used it was very lethal so the mountain surely must be dead i I mean, it's true and not true, you know? Obara calls this a start. That's a start. And Ellaria is appalled. A start? Said Ellaria Sand, incredulous. God's forbid. I would it were a finish.

Tywin Lannister is dead. Sora Robert Baratheon, Amory Lorch, and now Gregor Clegane. All those who had a hand in murdering Elia and her children. Even Joffrey, who was not yet born when Elia died.

I saw the boy perish with mine own eyes, clawing at his throat as he tried to draw a breath. Who else is there to kill? Do Myrcella and Tommen need to die so the shades of Rhaenys and Aegon can be at rest? Where does it end?

The Sand Snakes say, well, we want vengeance. And that it ends when Casterly Rock is cracked open with the ruin of Tywin and his children and works. I mean, like, she's established. Tywin's dead, alright? Like, what do they want anyways? Elloria, once more, speaks and asks similar questions. Olberin wanted vengeance for Elia. Now the three of you want vengeance for him? I have four daughters, I remind you.

Your sisters. My Elia is 14. Almost a woman. She's gonna die too. Olbella is 12, on the brink of maidenhood. They worship you, as Dorea and Loreza worship them. If you should die, must El and Olbella seek vengeance for you and Dorea and Loree for them? Is that how it goes?

Round and round forever? I ask again, where does it end? Ellaria Sand laid her hand on the mountain's head. I saw your father die. Here is his killer. Can I take a skull to bed with me? To give me comfort in the night? Will it make me laugh? Write me songs? Care for me when I am old and sick? What a killer speech, no pun intended. Yeah. I mean, it's true, right? It's not one-to-one at all.

I think we've talked about this speech before, actually, in different parts of A Song of Ice and Fire, but there are parts of JFK's commencement at American University from 1963 that feel really compelling to this status in Westeros. Ellaria is kind of one of the few who understand that if you start a war, you're going to rip apart the nation of Dorne, which as we've seen already from this dinner, Dorne is divided. We had people that refused to drink, people that drank because it was politically what they should do at the time. Whether they're able to instill someone on the throne that would value them, their people, and the policies that they need to

further survive and to give resources evenly distributed across all of the nations, even if that's what the war costs, I mean, the price is very high. Ellaria doesn't know all the pieces, as we know. Doran has set himself in with a dragon or two. The dragon's false. He'll likely feed onto the idea of it being real because of his sister's child. But in JFK's commencement speech, he talks about war and about peace. Um, it wasn't 100% in my opinion, all genuine, because as we know, politician's gonna politician, but let us examine our attitude toward peace itself too many of us think it's impossible too many think it unreal but that's a dangerous defeatist belief it leads to the conclusion war

is inevitable mankind is doomed we are gripped by forces we cannot control we need not accept that view our problems are man-made therefore they can be solved by man, and man can be as big as he wants. No problem of human destiny is beyond human beings. Man's reason and spirit have often solved the seemingly unsolvable, and we believe they can do it again. I'm not referring to the absolute, infinite concept of peace and goodwill of which some fantasies and fanatics dream. I do not deny the value of hopes and dreams, but we merely invite discouragement and credulity by making that our only and immediate goal. Let us focus instead on practical, more attainable peace, based not on a sudden revolution, but on gradual evolution in human institutions, on a series of concrete actions and effective

agreements which are in the interest of all concerned. And then later he goes on to say, peace is a process, a way of solving problems. The Sand Snakes do not intend to problem solve these man-made problems the way that Ellaria or JFK proposed. Truly, they shouldn't have to. It's not their job. It's not the war they started, as Ellaria has obviously stated. But there still has to be a world to live in after they win their vengeance, right? The Reach is about to be blown to pieces by the Ironborn and torn apart. God knows what's going to happen with the dragons showing up. War in the east, starvation up and down the coast, others in the north. Genuine peace has to come from somewhere.

Ellaria might not have all of the information and all of the cards like Dorne is holding close to his chest, but her message here still stands. Yeah, the vengeance that they seek is not justice, right? What they want is not just vengeance. They want to, they want more than that. Like, I mean, Ellaria's like, all these people are dead. All right, like, these are the people who wronged us. And also she's like, I was there when Oberyn died, right? Like, it was in front of me. And also she's like, as Doran also said, he's like, I mean, it was a trial by combat. All right, like, he signed a waiver.

And any deaths, deaths right or not like the fault of others unfortunately right and i mean if agan's if they assume if they think that this is in fact agan ellia's child that's one person whose vengeance then they shouldn't be seeking vengeance for if you think about it. So, anyway. The Sand Snakes, though, I mean, they make a point. They're like, we don't plan on forgetting these wrongs. Obara correctly assesses that Westeros is bleeding, and they're like,

that means our time for vengeance, our revenge is right now. Stannis is at the Wall, Ironborn are in the Reach, and Cersei and Margaery are fighting over Tommen. Yeah, Doran is like straight up he's like okay this conversation is getting edgy and he's like alaria time for bed go be with your girls no harm's gonna come to them so she leaves and namaria says that oh while she means well she never knew our father's wishes like we did i mean she was literally there but

yeah but okay she saw him die but okay yeah you say girls and she's the one left now what to raise four kids on her own um yep anyway again this is a ario's pov and i love the way that he assesses alaria in this chapter because it's a side that I think we never got to see much of Alaria before since a lot of our perceptions of her were through the lens of people from the Westerlands or the Crownlands or the North they were just like Alaria she's there with Oberyn right they didn't really talk to her much and Arya thinks of her as like even weeping she has a strength in her and also later on thinks that she's a good woman and he's sad to see her go and i think that through this we see that ario is quite wise

because despite his strength and martial prowess ario often hopes he's like i really hope that i don't have to fight this person and that it won't come to blows he wants to avoid violence where he can and we haven't quite seen it because we haven't seen Dorne before these moments in the story. But Arya does have many scars. We get that from his Piovia in The Captain of Guards, from battles and fights that he's been in before. And we don't know what those are from,

but I think it's meant to attest to his skill and experience. And experience is, is of course highlighted very much as a key to fighting and and winning those fights in this story but and I understand that I am projecting a lot of ideas and thoughts onto Ario here because I mean the story does give us very little of him so we're trying to like understand what's Ario like right but I do think it could be read as you know on one hand ario admires elia's protectiveness of her children considering that ario's own parents didn't do that for him she recognizes the cost and the price that what that bloodshed means

considering that i think because of ario's parents telling him he was forced into many fights in order to serve, obey and he was lowborn, paying the price for highborn vengeance likely much of the time, or highborn crimes and Ellaria doesn't want that for her children and it also shows us that Arya

values more than just fighting as a measurement for strength, right? Like we keep seeing him sizing up other fighters, being like yeah think that person's strong they're a formidable fight or whatever but whereas oberyn thought that tears are what made obara's mother weak whereas cersei refuses to let people see her cry because she's afraid that people will think that's weak and whereas characters like jamie equate their skill in fighting to their masculinity and therefore strength. Ario is saying here that it's actually Ellaria's compassion and her tears that make her strong by his judgment. And I like that Ario allows himself to have these positive judgments

of people. But there's also an aspect where for those he's sworn to protect, he's kind of worried about questioning them too much right where he's like doran is this are you sure this is what you want because then it would have to mean then questioning himself and it seems like ario does have a moral compass there's a line that he says to aria and during her imprisonment you know she keeps having to be like i didn't mean for aries to die i didn't mean for all these things to happen or for for marcella to be injured and ari says what you meant does not matter little princess only what you did his countenance was

i am sorry it is for my prince to command for hota to obey and i i think that you know regardless of him just obeying like that idea that the consequences of your actions regardless of your intent very much matter and i and that seems in line to an extent with what alari is saying yeah and that line actually really reminds me of last chapter with that memory that he has of when doran said words are like arrows arianne you know you can't just call him back after you say it uh and it's like aria was trying to teach her that lesson as well like look i can't fix your issues arianne i have to serve obey and protect that is what i've been told to do yes absolutely

doran corrects nemeria who was of course as I said, saying Ellaria is out of touch with their cause. And Doran says Ellaria knew Oberyn better than any of you would understand, but she also doesn't know everything and doesn't know of the war that's already begun. Obara casts the blame

to their sweet Arianne for that, as if you know, Doran hasn't been chilling with the Golden Company in letters. And Doran is angry about that he like sticks up for arianne he's like nope nope arianne did that for you obara as much as she did it for herself and obara says okay but when balan finds out about marcella and about aries okart he's gonna flip out and arianne grasps ario hota's arm which i think is a really interesting move here, saying, no, that was Gerald Dane's doing. That was not our fault. Actually, that's interesting because I almost remember Eriohota killing Arizocart.

Were you there for that? Yeah, she's doing something very interesting here with that intrigue of and we've seen that i think other people do that right in the story but it's fun to see aria and doing it and being like no this is what happened even if it's you know it's it's just a lie even it's kindly meant eliana you know a kindly meant lie from a princess who was in the tower she's getting their stories straight yeah get your story straight for sure. And of course, none of this will matter, she says, as long as Myrcella sings this song.

The snakes go back and forth saying, oh, we're probably gonna have to kill this guy. And of course, like I said, Tyene's like, oh no, what about all his squires? It would be so messy if we had to kill him. Although like, you know, she's sitting there just thinking about poisoning them all and doran totally facepalms he's like all right enough murder ladies i should leave you locked in your cells but i am going to take you to the water garden so you can learn a politic and obara is kind of negative to this and doran's

like listen there was a part of the story in the water gardens that I left out with Balin Swan. As the children splashed in the pools, Daenerys watched from amongst the orange trees, and a realization came to her. She could not tell the highborn from the low. Naked, they were only children. There is your realm, she told her son and heir remember them in everything you do and the children pay the price. For their sake, the wise prince will wage no war without good cause, nor any war he cannot hope to win. Yes, and he goes on to explain further how this relates to the relationship between Oberyn and himself. Because Oberyn was the viper. He was deadly and dangerous. No man tread on him. No man dare tread on him, he says,

which I'm like imagining O'Brien with his big yellow flag and it's like a snake. It says, no tread on me, please. Yeah, George actually probably got that from there. Yep. Doran goes on to say, I was the grass, pleasant, complacent, sweet smelling, swaying. Who fears to walk on the grass?

But it's the grass that hides the viper and shelters him till he strikes he tells them that obrin and doran work together very closely more than they would know but now obrin is gone and he needs to trust his daughters in his place this is very similar to the idea of the sword and shield that we talk about with like aria and sanza for example doran reveals in this chapter he isn't useless just because he's not physically capable of brandishing a sword or a giant spear at a giant in battle and i do love the snake in the grass idiom right like exploring its antiquity there's two origins we can really initially look at, but there's a handful we'll talk about. Ultimately, it's probably from Virgil. There's a translation from Virgil.

You boys that pick flowers and strawberries near the ground, run away from here. A cold snake hides in the grass. This phrase then went on to kind of get changed of French origin. There's a few ways to look at it. There's pad in the straw, pad meaning toad. And John Pelsgrave first records it. There is a pad in the straw, il y a des lignans. Though they never so fair a face, yet there is a pad in the straw. So this has an obsolete French phrase that Eliana, I know you, queen of the onion, queen of the layers, might appreciate. That Ilia de Lugnang means literally there is some onion.

Meaning there are obscure motives, suspicious events, stinky motives. That's what that means. There is some onion. that's what that means there is some onion i think we talked about it a little bit last week and i love what you were discussing with joe magician earlier off uh off the cuff there with the whole you know the the stuff with the oranges i feel like look we have we didn't touch the oranges no pun intended back with ariana quentin right but here we are ready to go on in on these blood oranges and i think one of the easy translations is biblical here, as we discussed last week with the snake in the Garden of Eden, the serpent, which it's wholly represented. While Doran was the grass, now he's playing both roles.

Right. He's becoming the serpent on his own. He's revealing he is a little treacherous and also that he's choosing the oranges. He's choosing to follow temptation specifically this temptation of vengeance he's cautious about it but he's still sending them off and the rotten fruit and dorn's own garden of eden is strong enough imagery for this the time for revenge as we've said is long past and the dornish faction thinks they'll eat this vengeful fruit and gain their own immortality. But is the gain of immortality really within reach?

No, as each rotten fruit plops to the ground we're told immortality is not in reach for these characters. Yeah, and it's not in the reach for them either. I'm sorry, I couldn't resist. I can't even fire you at this point but i'm gonna

anyway but yes absolutely they keep thinking the time is ripe and it no it's overripe and i mean it comes back to you as you reminded us doran kept saying like you can't take back words are like arrows right and here he's saying it is an easy thing for a prince to call spears but in the end children pay the price and he's he's giving in he's calling the spears now finally he's been wrestling right am i willing to pay that price for years and finally he's like here it is here's my chance it's like you're gonna blow it after they pledge themselves themselves after the sand snakes pledge themselves to doran he reveals that evil queen cersei has plans that he has learned from the ears that he has placed all about king's landing

tristane he says is not meant to reach king's's Landing. We shouldn't send him anyway. Balon's party would be attacked by outlaws and Dristain is supposed to die and the outlaws are going to scream, half man, half man! Doran was invited to court but only as a farce so that he could see with his own eyes that Cersei was not to blame and Balon would be

the only one to see the imp. Maybe he'd think that he'd see him. Though interestingly, it's interesting that they'd have balan do it because balan was one of the few at tyrian's trial who said i don't know i didn't actually see him put poison in the cup why would you say that and they twisted balan's words around to try and incriminate uh tyrian so it's interesting that they chose him but anyway hence the sweating at dinner from balan because he's used to like being pretty honest and now they're like balan why don't you tell a lot of lies for us especially when doran suggested they take the ship and of course doran

asked him the question because they're like let's see him sweat let's do it i kind of love it i did kind of love that that he asked the question to see him sweat because's do it i kind of love it i did kind of love that that he asked the question to see him sweat because again it's such good setup you start that you see the sweat and then you get right here and doran's like listen bitches i know everything that's why my joints are so big they're full of secrets oh wow yeah the sand snakes wow, secrets. They're in shock at all of this. And they're calling Cersei a monster, saying that they couldn't believe that the Kingsguard, who are sworn to serve, obey, and protect. Would do this. Them?

Like the Eric Andre meme. The half-man thing, like, this is a very elaborate plan. This is a very Cersei plan. I can't believe that the Kingsguard thing like this this is a very elaborate plan this is a very sassy plan i can't believe that the king's guard would do this they would break their vows commit crimes no doran interrupts this rightful rage which of course immediately led to violent scheming right like they're like the king's guard did this we should kill them all uh and he's like no no we're not gonna break guest right we're not going to break guest, right? We're going to take him to the water gardens.

And of course, you're waiting for Obara to be like, and then drown him. We're going to take him to the water gardens, have him hear Myrcella's tale, and then Myrcella will ask her knight, Balon Swan, to hunt down the Darkstar for her. And of course, Balon Swan will not refuse. Obara will lead Balon to High Hermitage, deal with Darkstar, and Nymeria will take the seat on Kang's Landing Council, returning Myrcella with her. Tyene, of course, is to join the new High Sparrow, as her mother was a septa, and Tyene is easy, easily able to emulate the purity that is needed in white robes. He sends them off, Arienne giving them her cousinly love and blessing,

and Hota, Arienne, and Doran remain in the solar together. It's difficult because we hate the mountain. We hate Anri Lorch. We hate Tywin. We love Cersei, but also, yes, we hate her, but also we love her. These are not great people, right? They're not good people. They're bad people. But the idea of sending the Sand Snakes, who have their own personal vendettas and personal motivations, while, yes, they are not very, not very etched out over the two books, but they are etched out enough in this chapter that I'd say they have their own plans. They're being sent out with resources to deal with these people, and it kind of seems like a ill-thought-out decision. Like, Obara has a huge personal vendetta on Oldtown because her dad smacked her sex worker mother in front of her and made her

choose the spear over her. She wants to rip Oldtown to shreds in the guise of acquiring resources. Nymeria and Tyene want to see the Lannisters, including the kids, burn, die, die of poison, clutching their throats because of what has happened to their family. Tyene, in this very chapter, like we've said, acts so innocent, while implying maybe we should kill all the squires. Her eyes are all sparkling tiki while she's like oh so messy so much blood oh no you know like okay tyene back off doran has to see some of this coming uh he can't be maybe he's blinded by time passing by the regrets of not

making choices faster soon enough by his sister and brother's memory. But I do feel like this mission gets overlooked by many. I do often hear people say, I don't really remember the Doran chapters. I don't remember that. But this chapter is so significant for at least three to four chapters, POV chapters, at least, of the next book. Cersei's POV is going to have so much of this in The Winds of Winter. We're going to see Tyene in the background of her

chapters because she's going to heavily be involved with the Faith, I'm sure, in the beginning of the story. Tyene will be peeking in, wearing white, looking pure, maybe at the Sparrow's side. We'll maybe see her in Arianne's point of view, and John Connington's point of view at Council's. Nymeria will be at Cersei's side, whispering in her ear, poisoning her thoughts even further as she spirals downward, if not, as I've mentioned, maybe seducing her, we don't know. Obara seems like the true wildcard, but from her actions in this chapter, not so much. Obara's probably not going to follow a diplomatic plan, is kind of how I feel after reading all this. Yeah, definitely. And Cersei's going to be like, who the fuck are these people?

These are not Dorne and Martell. I asked for one person to come. One weak Dornish, goddammit. I asked for one person, come. One weak Dornish, goddammit. I asked for one person, and my daughter and his son. Who the hell are these people? Oh, these bastards. Well, actually, I guess only two of them.

Whatever. Anyways, these are the two wrong people. But I also am like, I don't know, know seriously why do we keep asking I understand there's an open Dornish seat but like we've gotta stop asking Dorid Martell to try and make this very long trek okay he is in pain I just wanted to say that um

but yeah we're gonna see as you said and we're always emphasizing that the Dornish plot is so important to the Winds of Winter Ariane's telling her father well what if And we're always emphasizing that the Dornish plot is so important to the Winds of Winter. Arion's telling her father, well, what if we did send three of us to King's Landing? I can still go. And Doran's like, no, we have to keep you safe as my heir, and decides I have another task for you. And she's like, oh, have you heard any further tidings?

And he smiles his secret smile towards her this feels telling you know like we should have realized it's all gonna go south or north i guess on first read because now ariane and her father are no longer at odds they are joined forces they are drinking their strong wine dumb bitch juice together they're like we're fine we're plotting it's great it's all gonna go great it's going great oh god yeah they're bonding they're like we're gonna bond over scheming together and you know you it really sinks in right the impact that having her father's approval and love has had on arianne truly transformative and remarkable she's like even defending him against the sand snakes and she's like sand snakes are the coolest ever i wish i was one of them but i

think part of it is like she feels that she has years of atonement maybe and i think that dorn probably feels the same and like i said earlier right like it would all be actually a very beautiful healing process between father and daughter if it weren't for the part where they're all doomed but yeah it's kind of heartwarming it is sweet sweet, but sad. Yeah, like, you know, Ariane lived her whole life with this cloud over her head that she wasn't good enough and that her dad favored her younger brother and that she was a disappointment and she was ashamed and didn't understand what she did wrong. And now it turns out, no. No, he thought pretty highly of her in a lot of ways. You know, he's like, I was going to make you queen, but, you know, things have gone awry. So wait, you're saying I shouldn't have gotten that Kingsguard killed, Dad?

So Doran has heard from Lys. This is where things get interesting for the reader. Maybe not so much for Arianne, but for the reader. He says he's heard from Lys where a great fleet with elephants and an army is taking on water arianne is disappointed that it's elephants and not dragons which i think is so interesting such a uh like a not seeing the big picture thing right like doran's like no arianne i'm trying to tell you something and arianne's like but i want dragons dad and it's just what damon sand later tells her when they're playing savas like don't don't keep going for your dragon arianne you have other things to play on the field we get this line

elephants easy enough to hide a young dragon in a big cogs hold though denarius is most vulnerable at sea if i were her i'd keep to myself and make my intentions hidden as long as I could so I might take King's Landing unawares. Hmm. Interesting. Interesting ideas about strategy here. That being vulnerable at sea for Daenerys. I noticed this, this line through, and so now I'm like, oh, so we're losing a dragon.

I mean, we were always going to lose a dragon. I just didn't. You don't know that? Well, we have to. It's all too OP. No, that's true. She is like the Omega with her dragons. We gotta, I mean, that's...

Sorry, Viserion, you dead bitch. So, Arianne asks if Quentin is going to be with them, these soldiers that he's talking about, and Doran's like, I don't know, but when the army lands we'll find out if they're coming to westeros he hopes quentin will be bringing daenerys up the green blood but decides you know what this is enough plotting for the evening he asks for a kiss good night and says look we depart at first light which i love that ario is in the background

he's thinking and he's like so midday we're leaving mid day mood it is i know that feeling like okay so i love again that arianne is so obsessed with the dragon in this she's like dragons dragons dragons is it dragon dad is it dragon and he's like no arianne it's elephants and i'm like arianne too bad you don't have any books or didn't have two to three weeks of time where you could read books where they were all in front of you maybe you would offense and i'm like arianne too bad you don't have any books or didn't have two to three weeks of time where you could read books where they were all in front of you maybe you would have figured out that your dad's talking about the golden company yeah but i mean she's gonna soon i'm gonna figure it all out soon sometimes you just gotta learn stuff for yourself you know you

can't just let your parents tell you stuff you just gotta learn stuff for yourself. You know, you can't just let your parents tell you stuff. You just gotta learn stuff on your own. Make your own mistakes, you know? Like, who needs King's Landing? Burn it down. Make your own mistakes. Yeah, and you know what? Also, same for Doran. He's gonna make his own mistakes too.

Like, all of them. All of them. Yeah. He's already made some in his marriage, and that was actually quite sad. So we end the chapter with later when arian had gone he put down his long axe and lifted prince doran into his bed until the mountain crushed my brother's skull no dornishman had died in this war of the five kings, the prince murmured softly as Hotah pulled a blanket over him. Tell me, Captain, is that my shame

or my glory? That is not for me to say, my prince. Serve, protect, obey. Simple vows for simple men. That was all he knew. Hmm. Man, sad. That's like such a fucking sad line and something

that really connected during this shame and glory are technically like super connected to the lannisters not just jamie's honor and glory which is horses but uh this plot as we know is directly connected to the lannister plot and we get a couple different lines it reminds me of tyrian in a dance with dragons and in a storm of swords of course with the song that simeon silver tongue wrote about him for she was his secret treasure she was his shame and his bliss and a chain and a keep are nothing compared to a woman's kiss and shame and glory is actually directly used in jamie five in the bathhouse at heron hall when jamie opened his eyes he found himself staring at the stump of his hand the hand that made me kingslayer the goat had robbed him of

his glory and shame both at once both of those are actually quite tied to the idea of like, hands and golden hands. But I think it speaks to as we've been saying, like the way that the Martells might be tempted into committing some of the same sins that the Lannisters have been doing for a while, right? Yeah. So I think that's very interesting, that connection. Because it seems to be, you know, as Jaime and Tyrion, well, Tyrion's a mess, but as Jaime becomes more humanized, right? And these, I mean, a lot of people look at the Sand Snakes as kind of characters, right? Like they're very caricatures. They're very just like, I've got a whip and I'm angry and then I've got this. And if you aren't reading these chapters in full depth you might continue thinking that and the sand snakes how people think of them they think of the Lannisters right as that

it's the golden twins it's Jaime and Cersei are the golden twins and they're spawned they're little cubs they're not actually usually named they are just these blank faces that they are going to get revenge against so as jamie is gaining humanity and as tyrian hopefully will maybe find his way back to

humanity again which of course coincidentally tyrian's the reason that they're going to have this alliance with agon right like he's pushed him that way uh as tyrian's the reason they even have a chance to get this vengeance so tyrian's just opening fire on his family but as these two characters are gaining humanity the sand snakes are continually stripping it from them in order to keep that idea of vengeance against them and i find that really interesting because in the end all these characters have been done so wrong like imagine if they just went to a good group therapy session. Dunno. Yeah, and that's what Ellaria is trying to push. She's like, what if we went to a good group therapy session? I think it's interesting that Doran asks, you know,

coming back to this idea of shame and glory, Doran asks, is it my shame or my glory? He's asking Ario to help him choose which one and Aryo has quite a different relationship with Doran than some other like maybe a Kingsguard or Lord Commander might have, but even then there's still that power differential where the Lord Commander can't question truly

what their ruler says, but that Doran thinks it's one or the other whereas in both of these lines from the Lannisters, we see that the thing that is the shame and bliss or the thing that is shame and glory, it's not one or the other. It's both. It is both Doran's shame and his glory that no Dornishman had died in this War of the Five Kings. Like it's a shame in that perhaps they weren't able to get vengeance, right? Perhaps they were not

able to get the justice that they so dearly wanted, and that the Dornish feel that they were disempowered during this entire period. But it's also his glory in that he was able to resist for so long that temptation, and that he was also able

to save and prevent the loss of so many lives it's both yeah it's definitely both i think that's important though because as we learn with jamie it's both same thing i mean it's it's not one or the other you can't take one without the other you're going to have both of these things shame and glory um in war you know it's war yeah and the onion can be both rotten and good but i do cut off the part that's bad because people are not well are they onions i don't know shrek sorry um hey there is some onion as the french say, so I want to move from onions, from tears from onions, to tears because of sadness. Because is it a Girls Gone Canon episode if we don't get sad? And now I want to be sad about Arya Hota even more.

Again. We've been talking a lot about him and his past and how it informs who he is and his relationship to the martells and last episode we actually discussed whether ario feels anything or any maybe like resentment that a kingdom would go to war over the death of the youngest son for oberyn who was the fifth son and yet he was wanted and just so loved that all these people want want justice for him or vengeance those are different where's he the youngest the eighth child in a lower class family in norvos was sold into servitude quite different from oberon's plight and regarding ario's sexuality and temptations towards having a family or wife or anything i i it's interesting because we have Aryo's chapters in contrast to Jon, right?

He's the Watcher, Jon's the Watcher on the walls, and he's wrestling, Jon's wrestling with what he does and doesn't deserve, right? His desire earlier on in his story to never father a bastard, but also that at one point in time he's like, well, yeah, I could, I wanted to be Lord Stark, and he feels at one point in time he's like well yeah I could I wanted to be Lord Stark and he feels shame about that and he's like I guess I could still be Lord Stark

now and just leave and have a life and like marry Val despite and that's interesting because like you know despite the sort of abuse that he endured at winterfell and his feelings of social exclusion for being a bastard amongst the highborn

family john still feels like he might want those things he might those things might still be attainable for him but ario doesn't show any hints of wanting any of that like yes much of it might have to do and much of it likely does have to do with this conditioning as part of the holy guard slave squadron but i thinking more deeply about what that means for ario's character i wonder you know did the holy guard use that fact that that that they were sold that these children like Ario were sold off by their own families as a way to sort of squash any desires that they might have had for wanting a family

or wanting love, because how could Ario feel like he wants a family when he can't even feel like he deserves one he was just so unwanted by his family, they saw him as a burden and not worth caring for.

And the Holy Guard, maybe like they told him, you know, you were unwanted. If you want to be of worth, if you want to earn a place in this world, then what you need to do is serve, protect, obey. You can have worth and be wanted if you follow these simple vows. And then maybe you can be part of a family like the martels maybe yeah i and it's so sad to think that maybe like we talked about with his sisters last episode the sound of noom and nara and yel singing that's what he remembers right like that when we hear about it that is what he remembers is the bells, possibly his sisters. He remembers the good things.

And I do think, I mean, contextually, yes, he feels as somebody with major abandonment issues from a biological father issue. May I just add hashtag bastard culture? Definitely feels unwanted I mean your family sold you but his family had to uh they had no other way to turn to he was a big boy who ate too much he says and he tries to justify it and he thinks of these sweet memories of his sister singing and of Norvos and kind of looks on it favorably in this old light. But the bearded priests manufacture, right? I mean

this is their manufacturing warriors. He was trained to be a warrior. He was trained to be a machine. So how can you possibly even like watching this family, this already super dysfunctional family right the sand snakes alone as nieces to doran they're just so dysfunctional and watching all this they're

very rude to him i would never speak to any of my uncles like that oh my god i know right i mean i have i've got a couple uncles that are assholes you know i'm white eliana so i have some ass we don't do that in asian families god that's the other like i was raised not to talk back for the most part so i don't know what happened personally with me you know like i'm not sure when the switch was flipped where i started talking back and here i am talking back to you every week but you know what i I mean? Like, I don't know. I just could never speak to my family that way. I get smacked upside the face.

And he just never. I mean, John was born and given, taken to this family where he wasn't allowed to have the love that he had displayed in front of him. Right. Like Catelyn and Eddard, yes, it was strained at times, but they grew to love each other, Catelyn reassures herself, I should say, and the kids grew to love each other, and even Jon was accepted to an extent, and this is the home that Erio has made, this is the home that he has had for himself, but there's no affection here, and the home that he has had for himself but there's no affection here and it's been so long since affection or the simple song from nara newman yell we're playing i mean how could he remember it how

could he know all he knows is serve obey and protect and it's extremely sad because ario will probably die loving nothing but his prince yeah he's afraid to you know in the moment doran is so vulnerable with him emotionally to ask him that's a very vulnerable question right and i don't know if he truly wants an answer from ario or not but ario doesn't know how to be vulnerable with doran and i that's a big part right of relationships that that shared vulnerability because ario's never been allowed to right he was vulnerable obviously with his family and that was and he lost that. So it's hard. It's really sad what goes on with Ario. And as you said, like that he might never truly be able to attain that. And he's just he's kind of kept himself. That's his own shield, right? The the vows to not have to be vulnerable. not have to be vulnerable yeah and again how would he figure out how to be you know at this point you can't just learn that i mean there's so much stuff as an a grown-up that i'm now realizing that i can't just like naturally learn like i would have as a child right behaviors yeah ways to confront

problems i mean there's so much problem solving that day to day I'm just like, why didn't no one teach me this? You know? Yeah, constantly. Why was this not a day to day feeling? Like, why do I still not love myself no matter how many memes I post? You know what I mean?

Like, I just, yeah, it's different than Ariel's major struggles, but you know what I mean? What you mean? Sorry. I'm going to just repeat the exact same joke I made. Back and forth. I was louder. People will hear it, Eliana. God, no, I'm just kidding. You edit these. You can make it happen. I'm sad now, Eliana. Why did you do this to me?

I thought we deserved, I thought Ariohota deserved for us to be sad for him. He does. He deserves his Balan Swan song. You know what I mean? Yeah. Am I hired? Balan Swan's interesting. I feel like something. And so, okay, here's the deal, everyone.

We are going to do a quick outro for Aria Hota. And by that, I mean a quick lightning round. And I want to talk about Balan's Swan real quick, because something I really liked was the two sides of his clasp, of his cloak. How one side was onyx and one was the light color. I thought that was interesting of the

Swan. And Arianne actually says to him, you know, oh, your Swan is so beautiful. I hear they come from the Summer Isles. I've never seen one. I'd love to see one. And obviously it's flirty like i'm charismatic and i'm trying to get you to our side balan swan and make you feel you know vulnerable whatever and femme fatale shit but i think there's something there with the two sides like balan swan seems like maybe the least shitty left on the king's guard and he's about to die let's be real he will die he will be dead maybe by the time we get to the first doran chapter we will just hear

he's dead i don't even know if we'll see it you know i think we'll just hear oh balen swan dead dark star obara gone uh i think that might be something we're looking forward to like that dark star and obara team up and they just like peace. And I don't know if we'll even see it. I think there's some really awesome theories that circulate. And as we get into this outro here, I want to talk about some of them. to like Bael and Swan for all the reasons that you said and of course you know he is a marcher comes from the marcher lords right and House Swan is sworn to House Baratheon but as we know the storm lords are going a certain way with the arrival of the grifts and the the idea of like two swans of two different colors facing each other it reminds me again you know of the what happened in the dance of the dragon civil war and families facing against one another and and this hilarious exchange between jamie and balan where jamie's like all

right well what happens if your family right comes into the into the room and you're told to choose between your king and your blood what will you do and Balon's like my lord that will never happen and Jaime's like it happened to me and Balon's like my lord on my sword on my honor on my father's name I swear I shall not do as you did and that's what Jaime wants

to hear but it sounds like Balon's gonna be put in a tough spot where he's gonna have to choose between the throne and his family yeah and he already is as we get into this chapter right i mean he starts the chapter and in his head he has to keep a straight face about this fucking insane plot let me just reiterate insane that cersei's, here's what's gonna happen, Balen, you're gonna take them this way. Doran's gonna see it all go down. He's gonna see his son murdered.

And he is gonna be like, huh, my son's dead. It must not be Cersei's fault because the imp was being shouted about. It's asinine. It is absolutely like, is the stupidest plan. Balen's like, i never took drama class balan's like literally i'm a jock all of us that joined the king's guard are jocks and we're disconnected from our families i'm not troy bolton oh my god okay both acting two sports we have to do this lightning round and then we can talk more about Balan Swan. So for our

outro lightning round, we'll be covering the chapters that span from right now until the end of Dance with Dragons but only the ones that are relevant. So the first one is the Spurned Suiter. The frog prince arrives far too late for his kiss. The frog's afraid

to come home empty-handed though and he plans to steal one of Daenerys' dragons. Rude. The griffon reborn, ruminating on the failures of his past, John Connington takes his home back, presenting it

for King Aegon VI, allegedly. God, you're allegedly... The dragon tamer. Oh. six. Allegedly. Don't you allegedly. The Dragon Tamer. O. Epilogue. A second O.

But this time from Kevin Lannister. Kevin Lannister. What a guy. He dead. Rip. So back to Balan Swan as we were just saying now that you have that context you know Balan Swan definitely I don't know if he's gonna crop up in person like I said I'm not sure if it's something we will actually see firsthand I'd

imagine we'll see some stuff from Erio but it could be one of those things where in the wind's winner we pop into ariel hota's first chapter and some shit has gone down george likes to do that right specifically ned john the stark chapters especially it's like here's some trauma here's some stuff that happened a week ago and now here's where our character is uh and we did get an email from our friends amy blackfire and julie area flint who have a new theory uh and i say new but it's a really cool idea it's dark star and doran are in league hmm dark star and doran are acting in league together uh and they kind of claim that Doran and Darkstar are sword and shielding it. Darkstar told is what they think. Or maybe he didn't tell, he was ordered. And so here are a few of the points that they think about this theory, which we will be linking below. It is over on Amy Blackfire's blog, A Song of Ice and Fire Chinese Lit, A-S-O-I-A-F. ChineseLit.wordpress.com.

Basically, Darkstar arrived earlier than everyone to the Greenblood, and it seemed that this was a little prearranged, right? Like, he didn't drink like other people were. He's like, no, no, I have lemon water. Stannis style. No salt, though. And the punishments that Doran doles out to Arianne's companions, which I agree feels completely preplanned.

It's likened a little bit to these guys in the story, like Gregor and Tywin, which for decades, these two carried out atrocities that benefited the Lannisters, and like Lin Corbray and Peter Baelish, or even Ramsay and Roose. It's a really interesting concept.

I'm not sure how I completely feel about it. I don't think it works with who doran is yes doran did show himself to be just as treacherous with as who oberon is in this entire kind of story that he hey i i've been the grass but i've been hiding the snake like i also am bad i'm bad to the bone bad to the swollen bone Bad to the swollen bone. Bad to the swollen joints. I say that as an arthritic bitch. So I think that's something to kind of juxtapose this against. That Doran has all these speeches about how the children are important to protect and save the children.

How going to war just means that more of these children will die. Whether the water gardens, whether the water gardens whether the snakes whether anyone and i feel like likening that he's in league with dark star is can be a little weaker because i just don't think he's like murder daddy you know like i don't think that he would be okay with uh dark star telling him to do stuff, I imagine that Darkstar decided to do things and Doran probably said, I will look the other way if you do things. I could see that. I don't know. What do you think, Eliana? Yeah, I think it's a really strong analysis, as you said, and brings in a lot of interesting ideas. And as I said, the idea of Doran and Darkstar working together opens up a lot of interesting possibilities for

the Dornish plots. And, you know, there's a precedent for Doran working together with someone acting as a sword or shield. But I just don't know, as you said, if the timing works for here, because Doran stresses so much that the children and their safety is important but we're seeing, I think we're starting to see now that Doran is making riskier moves and dabbling with the concept of paying

that price because up until now that's been the thing one of the core elements of Doran's character right like deep down that he's unwilling to hurt innocence and is trying to stay true to this creed that his mother taught him that was passed down to his mother, so on and so forth from that first Daenerys Targaryen. But I think that what's interesting

about this, I think that there's definitely a possibility for it as doran starts giving into those temptations and being like maybe yes yes and i think that's the thing right dark star can represent yet another one of those blood oranges another one of that that that fruit forbidden fruit that he's willing to take a bite out of and be like maybe maybe i will right maybe i will allow some of that innocence to be lost maybe there are prices that have to be paid for the good of many and rather than thinking like that price is like just a marriage thinking maybe it will have to be some children and that could be how he ends up in league with dark star at some point and i think there are a few kind of external canon things that have an influence here right like i truly believe arianne is the one that

texted dark star and was like hey you up you know what i mean like she was the one who texted dark star and said get out here and i know a lot of people might not confirm or take this as confirmed 100 canon but the world of ice and fire app if you have uh google play and ios definitely download it it's a canon app it was all approved through george like these were facts that were not just laid out there on the table for fun, right? A lot of people tag it as semi canon source because it's not the books, but it's a canon source. It was all approved. And the app confirms that Arianne and Darkstar maybe had some carnal knowledge of each other. And as we discussed in our Arianne chapters, Arianne kind of is into the whole Dark Star look. The robber with the widow's peak that she imagines fucking definitely resembles her uncle Oberyn, but also a little bit of Dark Star and his danger.

Doran, right now, this whole chapter, as we see, seems to be him covering for Arianne like covering her mistakes that she made up like listen yep this is how we're gonna fix it and he and her get together and they seem to be scheming to fix things and put band-aids on them dark star i think is hoping that in the mix of all of this and in all the chaos and the power vacuum that has just landed for Dorne, he's probably hoping for not only a pardon for this behavior, but also to get Starfall from its weak hold. Edric is nothing but a boy lord. I know it's not discussed often, and we did actually discuss, like you were saying,

the Marcher Lords and how Balon Swan is a Marcher Lord. And I think that's so prominent in the Dornish plot, this warring between the Marcher Lords and Dorne uh for obvious reasons that don't come up often edrick might have a little bit of an interesting parentage the wins a winner family tree for the danes elio garcia confirmed that george does have a little family tree going and i would love to learn who edric dane's parent actually is besides the dane brother the unnamed dane brother the arthur and ashara's eldest brother and aliria's eldest brother who doesn't get mentioned uh he obviously has died by now because edric dane is a boy lord and i want to know who his mother is is she still alive it seems like she might be a fabler however

aleria dane who is the lady of the house right she is uh not not the lady of the house in the lordship edrick like i said is the boy lord she is next after edrick if he does not continue on and get an heir but she was engaged in 294 ac to barrack Dondarrion. She was betrothed to him likely by Edric Dayne's dad. Why was she married off to a Margerlord's son? That's an interesting statement. It was to make a peace between the two areas between the two. Obviously this has been a horrible this in the reach has had horrible areas of peace back and forth. But that's pretty significant in my opinion. And because of these two things, with her married off and Edric being with the Brotherhood Without Banners and on his way back and Starfall's weak, I think Darkstar as an off branch of the Danes is really hoping to try to get Starfall from its very weak hold right now. really hoping to try to get Starfall from its very weak hold right now.

Yeah, I think it'll be interesting to see if Arya is able to catch up with him at any point. I think that Arya is really going to dislike Darkstar for a number of reasons, including betraying his little princess, attacking children. I think he's going to see Darkstar as very dangerous, right? We get a lot of sizing up of other fighters. But I think that he might be like, wow, fuck this guy, like, who thinks that he's so entitled

that just because he's so good at fighting that he deserves this lordship, or that he deserves this sword, right? Whereas Arya has been denied so many things, like, I don't or that he deserves this sword right whereas ario has been denied so many things like i i don't think that he'll very much like dark stars feelings of entitlement perhaps yeah it does not like ario obara and dark star are all probably gonna hook up. And as they say- And Bael and Swan. Don't forget Bael and Swan.

Not only 4's company, but 3's company, my dear. 3's a crowd. Someone's not gonna fit in that little Dornish faction, let alone Bael and Swan. I think it'll just be interesting to see Bael and Swan sweat a bit more. Like, what are we doing?

This is not why I came down here. Yeah. It's not looking great. That's all. That's all I have to say. Well, thank you everyone for tuning in and thank you Yeah, and thank you so much Amy and Julia Rhea Flint for this

analysis for us to dig into and think more about and talk more about because it's certainly given me a lot to think about in the future yeah i don't actually like think about dark star that often i know that there are people who do for example san rixian yeah i like we were all like san rixian um i think i saw that monero also is very into dark star as well they were bonding over that somewhere. Listen, maybe Darkstar is into them, okay? Yeah, those people think about Darkstar.

So this is for you all. I'm glad that we had a moment to think about him. Yes, thank you very much to Julia and Amy for reaching out with this and for bringing up a lot of those great parallels and digging into those characters. You know, if you have something that you would like to tell us, you can find us on social media at Girls Gone Canon on Twitter

C-A-N-O-N, or you can also shoot us an email at girlsgonecanon at gmail.com Yes, absolutely shoot us some ideas or theories to Chloe and Aliana. If you do not already subscribe to us on the many

platforms you can find us on, like Spotify, Google Play, iTunes, Podbean, where we're hosted, Stitcher, Acast, you name it, make sure you get over there and do it. And of course we do have a Patreon, and for patrons $5 and up,

you get more episodes this month it's going to be a La Belle Sauvage episode but next month will be an Aswath episode and last month if you would like last month's episode we covered Under the Regents, a bit of the reign

of Aegon III in the aftermath of the dance yes and we also have been doing a Free Cities series of Aegon III in the aftermath of the dance. Yes, and we also have been doing a Free Cities series. I'm really excited to keep going. I hope we can do some good Norvos talk in the future, so stay tuned for that. As always, I have been

one of your hosts, Chloe. And I've been another one of your hosts, Eliana. I'm gonna miss Erio, Eliana. I'm gonna miss Ariel, Eliana. I actually really will. I thought this was really fun. Well, tune in next month for Asha Greyjoy. I am excited for Asha.

Yeah, that's true. Who's after Asha? No one knows. No one knows. We'll talk to you guys later. Tune in for Forgotten Characters and T-Bow next week.