Girls Gone Canon Cast - His Dark Materials Episode 13 - The Subtle Knife Chapters 9 and 10

Episode Date: May 29, 2020

Two chapters, two character reveals, many answers for our two young heroes.  Chapter 9 - Theft Chapter 10 - The Shaman --- Eliana's twitter: https://twitter.com/arhythmetric Eliana's reddit account: https://www.reddit.com/user/glass_table_girl Eliana's blog: https://themanyfacedblog.wordpress.com/ Chloe's twitter: https://twitter.com/liesandarbor Chloe's blog: www.liesandarborgold.com

You're listening to Girls Gone Canon, covering His Dark Materials. Hello, everyone, and welcome to Girls Gone Canon, episode 13, lucky number 13. And welcome to our very lucky reading of His Dark Materials, The Subtle Knife, chapters 9-10. I am one of your hosts, Eliana. And I am another one of your hosts, Chloe. Well, here we are once more. another one of your hosts chloe well here we are once more we of course started off this podcast of girls gone canon doing literary analysis of a song of ice and fire but turns out we also like other things we're greedy we are we want we want all of it we want all the good stuff so here we

are on the good stuff reading his dark materials which has a book that's coming out probably in the next couple years honestly he's got a good track record he put out yep labelle sauvage in 2017 he put out the secret commonwealth 2019 or so right and yep 2019 uh we did have the opportunity to watch philip pullman do an interview with what were they called we actually watched him do a live stream tea time recently philip pullman where he talked about his progress on the new book the third book of dust eliana is catching up on the second she has read the first though so we have to applaud her for that but we need her to get with me get on my level yep um and in the in the tea time so you know it's Pullman talking a lot about his process and you know how his life is during quarantine in the UK and I am a little

concerned though for his writing Pullman sounds like he's not getting the inspiration he needs that he usually does and by that we mean the insight that Philip Pullman is very motivated by watching the ducks along the river. This is of gross importance to Philip Pullman. Not just anywhere, though. I mean, he loves also going to cafes in Oxford. Yep, and feeding ducks there, too, he said. He loves those things, and those are no longer longer big options but he's been posting a lot of pretty nature from his house lately and he also shared that he has about 47 handwritten pages so

far at this time it was like april 30th was the day of this live stream at this time 47 handwritten pages for the new Book of Dust, so we're getting somewhere. It was cool to see where he works. It's a very packed little study. I liked Philip Pullman's insight. He's like, if there's a surface, I have to put something on it. He's an artist.

He's an artist. It's a mess in there. I'm like, I relate. That's my brain. A mess. Me. A mess. True. true well we're going to continue covering the subtle knife the second book in his dark materials it is our 13th episode of our his dark materials series and we're going to be covering chapter 9 theft and chapter 10 the shaman today after that we will follow it with a discussion our book spoilers after section the discussion with me and eliana will be covering the first three main books in the series up and

through the amber spyglass and i will be going on and to monologue on my own and talk about labelle sauvage and the secret Secret Commonwealth after that in a dusty discussion. So tune out if you don't want to know what happens in the rest of Subtle Knife and on after the discussion. Anyway, so yes, but first we are going to walk you through these chapters in the Subtle Knife. We're going to start off with Chapter 9, Theft, and then Chapter 10, The Shaman. But before we get to all that, we have these emails of note, not tweets. First one

comes from Maya, who has been posting some really great stuff lately on both Maya's Instagram and Twitter. You can find them on Instagram at maya m-a-y-a underscore shav s-h-a-v, so that's m-a-y-a underscore s-h-a-v

and Maya is also an A Song of Ice and Fire fan but wrote us some nice things that we'll chat about during one of those A Song of Ice and Fire episodes but first I think the first thing that I saw of Maya's was that incredible fan art that she did of

Mrs. Coulter and her demon the golden monkey yes it was amazing and i'm really excited because she stopped listening to the his dark materials cast and i'm not offended i'm not mad about it i respect that because she wanted to finish the books and come back to our episodes so they can listen to the discussions and they're really excited to do more His Dark Materials fan art I already have hopes and dreams for those fan arts

I'm hoping for some Baruch and Balthamos, maybe some Tialis and Salmachia maybe some Subtle Knife Chapters, you know some sad stuff for me, some Purple Sacks of Frages, some Pecklesby You know, some sad stuff for me. Some purple sacs of frashes. Some pecklesby.

You know, arrow witch. Who knows? Who knows? It would be welcomed. It would. And yeah, I wonder that might be a ways away. But we'll share again some of the art that we've seen. Like the monkey had such great expression.

And my style is just really great. Yeah. We're lucky to know so many great artists other than you with all of your beautiful talents but we have so many great artists in this community that are drawing some really cool stuff especially now that the show is kind of more of a thing

I think I've seen a lot more just more fan art popping up and I think that's really fun that's true and also but for now Maya says hopefully I'll be able to finish more fan art soon there's so much to draw in this series speaking of which I know you both

said you're not into Instagram but I think it would be a great addition to the podcast to have its own account you can post little videos slash stories with behind the scenes footage post announcements and reminders and of course most of all post pictures of your perfect executive producers cat emoji cat emoji oh sorry cat heart eyes emoji cat heart eyes emoji think about it hmm we could be swayed yeah i don't know um you're the instagrammer of us. I do it very seldomly.

I mostly lurk on Instagram. I use it for, I just use a lot of my social media for very different things. Yeah, so do I. I know that there are other casts that have an Instagram. I think that Game of Owns has an Instagram that they do some fun stuff with. So does Drinking Game of Thrones. I don't know if I know of any His Dark Materials podcasts that have

an Instagram yet. I think that it's an idea. We'll see. We'll see. It's an idea. It's an idea. We'll see. It's something we've been asked a couple times. So maybe we'll get around to it. It might be the time with all this fun COVID quarantine not going far yet. There's so many things to take pictures of and share.

Yeah, things are great. We got another email from our friend Lo, who had some thoughts they wanted to send us in anticipation of this episode. They said it actually in advance. They read up and they said, OK, I know you're doing this episode, so here it is. They, and I kind of agree with some of this, are not a huge fan of how Grumman is the cool adventurer and explorer dude, so revered by the indigenous people, it feels a lot like a tired trope of the white dude being worshipped by native people, or discovering them and ending up their chief. I don't really like the dynamics when Lee first meets them. I often feel like Pullman is trying to say something about Indigenous people,

like with the bears and the witches that you have talked about before with me, but obviously the Tartars too, with them not just being brutal people who cut holes in enemies' heads. But I'm not really sure how well this works. I did do a Twitter thread about the bears a little bit ago, and I'm still not really sure what I think will link that thread below. Lo has another question that I will bring up during the Dusty discussion as well. I was already kind of planning on bringing it up, so I'm glad that they emailed us that. And I think this is kind of valid in some respects, right?

I think kind of where I've landed so far, and especially on this reread since i did finish subtle knife uh when we were first doing and covering northern lights the golden compass this is my second read now and i think it's more ignorant than intentional not necessarily as bad as it could be and i think Pullman is thoughtful in a lot of his writing, but that has more to do with some of this hero worship he tends to write into his male characters. Looking at his treatment of the witches in comparison to men like Asriel and John Perry, who seem to be glorified in what they do, we see consequences of Asriel's actions.

And John Perry, as we learn in this episode, is sick and not well. But it does feel like some of the writing we see him use for characters in the Books of Dust, for example, like Malcolm Polstead, no spoilers, he just has a different lens he's using, and it feels slanted. Even in some of these fictional authors that we hear about that tend to be, I don't know, kind of Ayn Rand. The language that is used, it's interesting. It's an interesting discussion. I think that the discussion about the Yakut in Pullman's writing that we're going to get into later, and of Ivan Kasimovic-Tiltshin is kind of interesting. There's definitely a lot of deep lore he is pulling from. Maybe not intentional,

but maybe sometimes his tone just comes off a little dense yeah i agree with all that and i think it's as you said it's more of ignorant than intentional like he might he's trying to do some stuff but also i acknowledge you know the time in which people were writing like like, we've come a long way since the 90s. Like, we talk about it a lot when it comes to A Song of Ice and Fire, right? The way that we portray stories and the way that people have been digging into them now. And I think that because of the internet, there's a lot more voices that are out there that are able to provide deeper criticism on how we portray different kinds of people, whether it's indigenous people,

people of different ethnicities, different gender ability etc right and that was starting to happen over the years right and i mean like when pullman was writing i'm not saying this like as an excuse i'm just like these are the tropes that he's interested in right these are the stories that he kind of grew up on i mean if he's if he's writing on westerns there's absolutely a possibility he's drawing on the stories that he loved growing up and those explorer uh stories and um uh these tropes that were just there and had haven't really interrogated them yet and i think i just don't expect old white men to be like our saviors when it comes to literature. Yeah, I guess I think we're a little jaded, obviously, when you've read a book where there's like breast milk compared to rum, right, in a sexual manner.

It like it fails you on men writing anything. Not to pull a song of ice and fire back into this, but it's just I don't expect much and I still get nothing most times. You know, so for once, I think that Pullman was kind of fair in some of the lore. I think that he just, again, unintentionally kind of explored a lot more of some of this diversity when we get to the Amber Spyglass and some of the characters of different species that come in. It's really interesting to see how he brings some of these mythos and creatures in eventually. But as you move forward into the Books of Dust and something that you'll see, Eliana, when you get to the Secret Commonwealth, I think there is a little bit of poison in the well for just how he tends to write these male characters and I don't

know I think it's just a little hero worship the good guys are the good guys for Pullman you know that's interesting it seems like he doesn't quite do that for some of the other characters in this but there's some who are definitively good guys and bad guys you know as realist legacy compared to like you know someone else's i don't know who has also done horrible

like mrs coulter's yeah anyway yeah i agree with everything that you said there but you know time to dig into some of the stuff that was brought up in that email starting off with chapter nine theft they brush back to the cafe will and lyra will covered spattered in blood from his fingers having been sliced by the knife they no longer feel guilty about stealing stuff and chita got say they grab some clothing lyra pulls some water out to boil will heads upstairs to strip and wash and the pain is dull but persistent the cuts are Yeah, and it's- the description here is like, Will's just kind of in a tough spot, right? Because he looks at his fingers, He feels sick when he sees them. It kind of sucks because then his heart starts beating faster because obviously it would stress someone out and make them nervous.

They're like, oh man, my two fingers where the stumps are keep bleeding. And so he's like, I gotta not think about it. Because he's like, it might make it worse if I keep my heart beats faster and the blood flows more so uh it's like the scariest thing in the world and he's all like dizzy like losing blood like kind of scary kind of it and what did the guy say to him he's like oh yeah it happens to all of us that bear the knife oh oh uh yeah and and so i mean that's kind of good in a way because you're like well clearly someone's gone through this before and they survived that old man got old but will's like what happens if

i lose all my blood first yeah he's like how did he actually get this to fucking stop he calms himself down and he dries off on the increasingly bloody towels and he gets dressed asking lyra to bandage him as tightly as she can she says nothing at his pain tears that he's wiping away will asks her to hold his letters for him in case they don't come back here giving her the green leather case she starts to say you know i'm not gonna read them will and he's like i wouldn't let you have them if i didn't want you to read them lyra it's fine if you read them which is totally this huge moment of trust that's born between them it's progression in their friendship like he's like read the letters about my dad that i won't talk about with anybody ever and she's like i didn't see you crying really good friendship

yeah and yeah he's like whatever you can find out everything about me here learn about my pain all kinds of it Will takes his nap and later in the night they're crouching in Charles Latrum's neighborhood so they took their time getting to Latrum's

place and neighborhood they took the long way there hiding throughout the night in Chittagaze, which, interestingly, during this narrative part, is sometimes written as Chittagaze, and sometimes written as Chittagaze. I'm like, how do you

decide which one you feel like using in that moment? I don't know. They close their windows as they go. The tabby is also following them, and Will is learning to use the knife a little bit more, but his wound is also getting bloodier. Not good. Not good. Not great. Not great. I would say that

Chittagaze and Chittagaze is the difference is like accent probably, right? Depending on what side of town you're in. Kind of like depending on where in Jersey you are or where in Philly you are kind of thing. I don't know. But I thought there was like a rhyme or reason to it.

Because I was like, oh, he's saying chitgaze here. Maybe it means something. And here it's saying chitgaze. But within like, not dialogue, right? Yeah. I don't know. There was no logic. Maybe Pullman just forgot.

No. He was just having fun. He was riffing. He's like, ooh, freestyle. A spiked iron fence surrounds the home. Will easily cuts through it, having Lyra catch the falling chunk of fence as to stay quiet.

Just cutting the fence apart. Love that. They're just chopping into it. They pass through. Will cuts a hole into Chidagatse so he can move in Chidagatse to where the study might be in the other world. His plan is basically to grab the alethiometer and go and for Lyra to play lookout while waiting for his cue to join up at the other window and get out. Pan turns into an owl for the occasion and Will begins to slice his way around. He memorizes his footsteps and he goes and Lyra

waits, eyeing the study from her window so something I love about this scene is two things there's something that kind of feels like a twisted playfulness here with our two child protagonists and it feels like they're playing this like weird game of hide and seek as they try to stay out of the way and

hide and darting in and out of different windows and places. And I think that helps make this story, of course, relatable to younger audiences. And it's something that I think many people can relate to from their childhood. Stakes are, of course, much higher, you know, like, cool truth-telling machine, life, your freedom, whatever. The safe zone, though, like, you know how if you're playing hide and seek tag which is not all forms of hide and seek right though some people think that hide and seek by

default involves a tag whatever uh the safe zone here though is of course chitagaze because the adults can't go there there's also this aspect of memorization in the footsteps and trails that will is doing that kind of feels like hansel and gretel right walking through the woods they're gonna go see charles latron but also maybe as something of which mrs coulter is going to show up there and whether or not it's intentional you know there's that sort of like cultural fairy tale that people recognize oh yes the children they got to keep track of where they're going as they go to the dangerous place right uh seeping in yeah and the way he's playing with the sword kind of to harken back to what you were saying like that twisted kids game it does remind me of playing with sticks

as a kid right and beating each other up with sticks and parents yelling at you like don't play with sticks the dance of the sword play is kind of what feels like that and for will though it's no longer a kid's act right in the way that he's cutting these holes it's no longer a kid's act which i kind of like with that like this is this is very life or death if one of them makes a wrong move they're screwed especially because of what they're about to see with mrs cououlter. Lyra is extremely worried about Will if he lands in the right place. I know, this is very aggravating. If he goes unseen, her heart's

beating, and then Pan nudges her. There's a car rolling into the drive. Pan goes to look out at the gate as far as he could from her. There's some specific language that he goes as far as he could without it hurting her. Apparently, someone is with Charles. Out of the Rolls-Royce comes Lyra's mother.

So there's this brief description here of how Lyra hears their quiet footsteps and didn't hear the engine, though. And part of me wonders, like, is this just telling us? Is this all an advertisement of, like, how quiet is the Rolls-Royce engine? So quiet, you can't even hear it right very very soft so lux uh someone who knows more about cars please please advise yes but i think it's also can be interpreted as a good detail of characterization right like lyra didn't think to listen for something like a car engine because she's just like not used to it she she's not it's not something she would know to be aware of yeah Yeah, one of my family members got involved in one of those like

marketing scheme companies pyramid scheme disguised as like self help company. You know what I mean? Like help yourself get to the top by making me money. Yeah, I also just watched the Bob's Burgers episode. I love that. But I had a family member who was involved with that and they actually had a mercedes-benz and it it drove it was like a brand new one and it drove this i had to have been like 13 when my cousin had this but it drove like clouds it was soft and that was a mercedes now but think of uh i mean rolls roys Royce last week, we talked to her last month, we talked a little bit about the Rolls Royce being a nicer car. But we didn't really dissect its origins beyond the hyphen. Right? We didn't speak of it as like, oh, it's hyphenated. It was pretty exciting. We didn't speak about it as the symbol of power that it is. And Rolls Royce in our world in real life, is a British luxury car, right? Later, an aero engine manufacturing business, though. The company, Rolls-Royce, was abolished, eventually reintegrated, remade,

from the partnership of Charles Rolls and Henry Royce originally. But later, they moved into this production of aero engines for the First World War. So in this alternate universe story, you can almost imagine and bet that Rolls-Royce probably funded Magisterium cars and Zeppelins. Like this was a company car for Charles Latrum, right? That's what this is. And there's a strong implication then that Rolls-Royce was probably a part of this industrial war machine in this battle against God, right? This corporate attack attack and you can see it like yeah here within this world that uh mixed way that it shows up so i think that's a big i didn't

know all that about the rolls royce history i know it's like a nice car like i'm not you know there are names that people just circulate about cars you like are like yes that's a no this is a luxury car and back then i mean I mean, they were beautiful. They still are, but they're beautiful. This was the very font of power. Back then, in the 90s. I'm trying to not act like I'm that old. Anyways.

Will is counting his paces, stepping into Chirgaze, and he begins cutting into the study. After three attempts, he gets it right. He sees the desk, the sofa, the cabinet, and a golden gleam on the other side of a microscope. He estimates the distance, closes the window, steps forward exactly four paces, and does it again.

Something that I love here is, like, the more that we get Will's characterization, especially it kind of comes through in this reread and knowing some of the stuff from the lantern slides, I think it really shows his precision. Not only is it, like, that the subtle knife needs those very precise cuts and that delicate touch that he has and intuition

but the way that he just looks at the world and how he's navigating this situation requires precision as well, right? Because he's like counting his footsteps the distance of things and he's counted also the number of cabinets in the room the first time he was there so just a lot of a lot of fun details about Will. You know, this reminds me of his mother counting the tiles.

Oh. Wow. Yes. Of Elaine counting the slats of wood. There you go. Yeah. Huh. Interesting.

I wonder. I wonder if that's... Anyways, that might be the connection. So, he does it, he lands, and he lands in front of the cabinet. Bad news. No alethiometer. Boreal had moved it. Or wait, Charles Latrum

had moved it. They've read the chapter. We all know who he is, his eight names. Will's hand is throbbing. He ties the wraps very tightly and he moves into the house, unable to find it, as he passes through rooms. But then he hears the gravel crunch

outside and he stands still. He hides behind the sofa next to the window that opens into the Chittagatse grass, where Lyra is racing to from the other side. He tells Lyra he doesn't have it, and he's going to listen to hear if he can get it put back. But Lyra interrupts him, saying it's worse than that, Will. Coulter is with him.

She remembers who this guy is now. She remembers meeting him at the cocktail party when she ran away from her mother. His name then was Lord Boreal. I overall think this is a smart switch and reveal. We meet him very briefly. Pullman gives a couple names, which works because the consonants match. That's the one thing I know about choosing a fake name. You should always choose something with the same consonant because it perks your brain up to acknowledge that, hey, they're speaking about me. So Charles is a little different than Carlo, but you're still going to think Charles, Charles, Carlo. You'll still think about it.

It's like the same name, right? But just different. Yes. Different, just different variation for language and different world. It's a different world name. There's a lot of trade off for names, right? In these chapters, you have Joe Parry, John Perry. Yeah. Grumman, Stanislavs Grumman.

You have all of that. You have the name for Charles Carlo, Charles Latrum, Lord Boreal, Carlo. Yeah, there's a lot of stuff with the names going on in here and titles as well that people are given. And I'll come back to that in a bit when we talk more about John Perry. But for now, people are being shushed. It is, in fact, Will shushing Lyra. They quiet down to listen to the conversation.

The two of them were close enough to touch. Will in his world, she in Chittagaze. And seeing his trailing bandage, Lyra tapped him on the arm and mimed tie it up again very cute but sad because you know Will's like

bleeding out he's like can't just stick a tampon or a pad on there actually that would have been a good idea I'm not joking putting a pad on there might have been like a decent idea I watched She's the Man, where Amanda Bynes suggests sticking tampons in your nose. Lord Boreal offers Mrs. Coulter a glass of toque.

She then calls him Carlo, his Lyra World name. I thought this was an interesting presentation of toque. We haven't seen it in a bit. presentation of toque we haven't seen it in a bit uh we talk in our song of ice and fire series about the significance of a certain golden wine as well but here in this series toque seems to play a pretty notable part as well in real life it's a slovakian hungarian nectar made from one of six different grapes it was raved about by numerous writers and composers. Beethoven, Schubert, Heinrich Hein, Friedrich von Schiller, Bram Stoker, Johann Strauss II, Voltaire, monarchs like Louis XIV, XV, Frederick the Great, Napoleon III, all of these men loved Tokaj and used it to

impress their political guests. Poland and Hungary's relationship is actually jokingly sustained by this wine, so I think it's safe to say that it's playing a similar role politically in his dark materials ever since its introduction to us in Poisoning Asriel in the very first chapter. And we know from later on it may have been Tokaj that

Roger and Lyra drank when they were down in the graves, right? That's hilarious. So Lancelius also Roger and Lyra drank when they were down in the graves, right? That's hilarious. Yeah. So Lancelius also offers it to Seraphina in chapter two of The Subtle Knife. Interesting. Just interesting that we've got lots of this wine in this book. And I think we're going to talk a little more about it in the discussion,

but Boreal's story very much so is tied up with wine and with greed. That's true. It is. And I mean, like, wine has a lot of significance in a lot of things. I haven't thought about it from the religious aspect, so I might have to think about that at some point.

But I think it's kind of a hilarious idea that that's what Roger and Lyra drank in the crypts. Like, let's get some of the most expensive wine we can. And there's, like, none left. That we cannot appreciate. Yeah, that we cannot appreciate. Let's go fucking throw it up.

Inches away from Will. They sit at the fire and the conversation comes to, where did you get this alethiometer, Carlo? Because Mrs. Coulter understands that it's probably connected to Lyra and she wants to find Lyra. And bold move, Carlo, he's like

Lyra is a repellent brat and he's like, I don't know why you want to go find her and she's like, that's my daughter you're talking about this is a terrible parent-teacher conference and she's like, where is my daughter? but first Carlo wants something in return

Will though thinks that Mrs. mrs culture's voice is intoxicating musical sweet soothing and young and wants to know what she looks like because lyra hadn't described her yeah you mean lyra didn't sit around and explain to you that her mom's hot sorry will god william has got it going on that's well right now my god it really is i this whole time i'm like william it kills me that this is foreshadowing for what for will being hot for lyra i guess right i i don't know i think pullman is supposed to try to show us like oh lyra's mother is incredibly good looking and she takes after her and some of her wits in her ways but it's kind of like a really weird way to express jeepers will has a boner for Lyra's mom and it's not weird.

You know what I mean? It's just interesting. Yeah. And it's weird. And again, he's like, what? He's 13. He's, yeah, 12 in the beginning of this book. Yeah.

Yeah. But, and it's not like, it's not awful. I think it's also showing her charisma and her intoxication. And it's showing us a window to what Coulter looks like not through a Lyra lens, right? Not through a Lyra POV. Seeing it from her counterpart now.

Yeah, I mean, like, that's how, what, Serafina and Ruta even thought about her. They're like, she's really good looking for a mortal. Mean, but beautiful. Scary. Mortal. but beautiful. Scary. Mortal. Sexy. So short-lived, also.

But it does really drive home why all those children followed her. It's weird. I think it's a little weird, but at the same time, I'm like, I guess that's realistic, right, for that age. I think I... I don't know. Yeah, for a boy with no fingers i mean so boreal wants to know what asriel's up to that's the piece of information he's seeking

coulter calculates and then tells him and everything about this conversation very much so as a transaction coulter is weighing the situation before knowing that she needs his trust in order to get information, right? To keep going with her plan. So she spills the beans to him. Asriel is gathering an army to complete the war fought in heaven eons ago. Boreal's a little impressed about that power. He asks about the magnetic pole. She tells him Asriel blasted open a barrier between worlds that had disturbed Earth's magnetic field and likely affected this world as well. Coulter has questions of her own, including what the fuck is this world? How did we get here? And

he explains, he says the openings are not easily found, that they've shifted, and now especially they've shifted because azrael's experimenting he's amazed he just happened to see her through one of these windows today randomly what did you do like stare through and see some high heels uh which meant they could come through directly without a one-way ticket through chitigatse she then is like what's chitigaze, and they have this discussion. She's like, you can't just name-drop places. Boreal. And Boreal explains, Previously, all the Dorfes

opened into one world, which was a sort of crossroads. That is the world of Chittagaze, but it's too dangerous to go there at the moment. Why is it dangerous? Dangerous for adults. Children can go there freely. What? I must know about this, Carlo, said the woman, and Will could hear her passionate impatience. This is at the

heart of everything, this difference between children and adults. It contains the whole mystery of dust. This is why I must find the child, and the witches have a name for her. I nearly had it, so nearly from a witch in person, but she died too quickly. I must have the child, and the witches have a name for her. I nearly had it, so nearly from a witch in person, but she died too quickly. I must have the child. She has the answer, somehow, and I must have it. Yeah. Passionate impatience. Did I do good?

Was that very passionate? Yes. Yes. Did I come off smug? That's what I was hoping. Yeah, very smug. Carlo, thank you, thank you. A couple of things here, though, with the description of

Chittagaze as the crossroads. We've talked a lot about Chittagaze in the past few episodes, but along with it being crossroads, I think that it's kind of purgatory going off of that idea of what a crossroads is, right? The adults who are claimed by the Spectres

end up getting caught at that crossroads of life and death. And I think that speaks to a lot of the larger themes in the story, this idea of a crossroads, right? Because Lyra and Will are coming into this point in their lives of adolescence. They have to make a lot of choices. Crossroads, right? Britney Spears. And like Britney Spears,

Lyra is not a girl, not yet a woman. Trying to find the dust in between? Yes, and that's where they are, right? So Chittagaze is interesting in that it's kind of playing to that idea of what adolescence is as a Crossroads.

And coming back to Mrs. Coulter and and lyra i think it's fascinating that mrs coulter actually has some similar motivations to lord asriel and how she's written there's a lot of them i think lord asriel's i guess greatest like prime directive right is like overthrow revolution mrs coulter has way more ambition than lord asriel for obvious reasons and the way that society set her up that it's she's ambitious because it's harder for her to be able to achieve things that lord asriel has had an easier time with as a man right but both of them are just very highly motivated by knowledge mrs coulter just wants to know things she wants to bite from that fruit of knowledge she wants to

know who lyra is right later on in this chapter she goes i want to know everything but the way she goes about it and the way it's entangled with her ambition and pretty much the willingness to pay any price is what differentiates her and asriel from people like i don't know dame hannah the master at jordan and i think i wonder if it like grates at her a little right like that lyra i mean she doesn't really know that lyra is able to read the alethiometer but like that lyra is just able to gain knowledge so freely right like she has the alethiometer you know when she has the alethiometer and can just find out the answers to things uh when it's not stolen and not in her possession yeah and i mean it's not even just

her ambition and willingness now to pay for it it's also what she's paid and where it's gotten her and how unfair it is right because she has given everything she gave up her child her dream of a political marriage and career you know and using that to climb and be successful for Asriel's dick, right? That's really what happened. It's so it's like that's what drives her when she realizes like this is what I gave up and they don't have to give anything. All these people don't have to give anything.

Why do you think she wants to burn it all down? Because she doesn't want anyone else to have it. That's what makes her such a good villain. Like, you know, some of the most really compelling villains, they start off with like a very very understandable human motivation it's just that they're willing to cross the line and she crosses the line in a way that's uh really bad you know with the killing children thing yeah killing children yeah the torture the abuse yeah it's a little fucked up all those things it's it's it's bad she is my mother though so

you know you can't choose your blood you can't and carlo says the instrument though the lithiometer will bring lyra to him and then when i have what i want you can have lyra right this is a price right and he's like curious about her bodyguards and she says that oh they're just men intercised men whatever no demons no fear no imagination or free will mmm fun none and I love that uh that Carlo asks these questions and she doesn't do the math on these

questions that he's asking her and this experimenting he's thinking about because he's like I want to experiment on if the specters will attack these soldiers of yours and Coulter's like, I need all these answers. But she already kind of has them because she isn't stupid, as we discussed. She is very smart. She works very hard to be smarter or try to be smarter.

Her plans obviously blow up on her sometimes in hindsight. But instead of make a few educated guesses as to how free will is being controlled by snipping away the soul it seems that Coulter just wants to keep killing kids. Isn't that wild? Yeah, but now it's just like these adult men. She's like, it worked here and we're gonna go take them to Chittagos because that's how science works, you know? You gotta keep doing

it and finding out if you get the same answers every time. I got that from an XKCD comic. Oh, really? I don't remember that one, but I haven't read it in a very long time. It was like the one where a scientist will just keep doing the same thing. I like to have some

smoke leaf before I go through years of a comic that I used to read, you know? At a time. I only remember that from like 10 years ago, anyway. It's a lot to catch up on. It is. Boreal says he'll explain the specters later they're what prevents the adults from traveling and she got say and he says dust children's specters demons intercision yes it might very well work have some more wine i like

that he's just like saying these words aloud he's like you string it together let me just say fancy words. It is kind of like he's telling her what he thinks she'll want to hear. You know, he's saying like, I'll trade you Lyra. Don't worry. Like, I'm going to take Kiri and Marisa. And this is his plane. I think that's something else that's really big here.

Like, this is his playing field because he's revealing to her in just a minute. Like, oh, yeah, I've been here the whole time. Like, I didn't go to Brazil. I didn't go to the Indies. I've been lying to you about my travels uh and he hasn't shared all of the information he's learned with his uppers right the security services in this world are preoccupied with the soviet union or what mrs coulter would call muscovy though the threat had died down he's been keeping in touch with his spy network, and he explains the magnetic field being disrupted on Earth has alarmed

the security services. So any nation that has money invested in fundamental physics or experimental theology, if you're from Coulter's world, has been contacting their scientists to get that investigated deeper, and they all know something's changing, and that it's likely

other worlds yeah must be nice you know having governments that turn to science for the answers yeah when bad things are happening i mean all the other secret stuff is bad but that's not different from here i mean to be fair i think they do have the research it's just they would rather kill us all off and enjoy the last years on their own with their spawn. You know, a slow, casual genocide. Anyways, there's research that's being done into dust. They know it exists here

as well, and there's even a team in the city, Boreal says, but he's looking for something or someone else. Specifically, a man who disappeared 10 or 12 years ago in the north who had knowledge that his spy people would love to have specifically knowledge of a doorway between worlds we have this quote

will sat frozen with his heart thudding so hard he was afraid the adults would hear it sir charles was talking about his own father so smartly done this is where all these hints the intertwining of will's story in the very beginning and all those info dumps have finally been woven in that little boy's dad who took off into another world was will but this isn't the only thing that Will is having a realization about in the conversation. Not just his daddy issues. He's also realizing there's a shadow moving, inching along the floor closer and closer to him. But Coulter and Charles were very still, so it couldn't be them. And then we have two very quick things that happen in succession.

Charles slash Carlo talks about the alethiometer and pulls it out. And then the shadow falls very still yeah under his breath will commands lyra to go to the other window distract everyone by throwing stone so that he can get the alethiometer when will turns back to the conversation mrs coulter is berating the master saying that he's so foolish for giving lyra a very intensive machine like the alethiometer that she wouldn't even understand and Carlo explains you know I actually saw her using it in the museum and then I stole it next time I saw it I was like mine now I like what a casual

villain he is he's he's straight up just like I took the lollipop from the child you know like he's happy about it it's very funny to me. Something I noticed in that passage is that Will, while, yes, he was very, very interested in this conversation about his father that he suddenly realized, he also had the perseverance to remember what they were here for, and that they were here for Lyra's alethiometer, and to give commands to her and say, hey, go do this so that i can still get it and he put their current mission and their current safety above this memory of his father i thought that was just really important because yes that's his main motive in this story but like at the same time will knew what was more important in the moment it's just such a big characteristic of him. I thought it was really interesting.

Yeah. Yeah, there's that. And I think at the same time, he also was like, whatever. It doesn't matter what they're saying. Because with the alethiometer, we can just get answers. It doesn't matter what their answers are. Yeah. To an extent.

And it's interesting, now that I realize it, of course these adults don't think children can read this alethiometer, right? The adults who read it and struggle with it would never pass it on to a kid to see if they could learn it. If they couldn't do it, how could a kid? And there are obvious reasons why an adult might have issues with the alethiometer, even beyond its magical explanation, just as in how adult brains are already developed. Like any instrument, the alethiometer is super complex. And from my own musical experience from learning instruments, when I was younger, it was a lot simpler to learn and things stuck, lessons stuck a lot easier. And adults, when we learn new subjects, we burden ourselves into it, right? Our life experiences come, it's not just

this innocent slate of learning something i think that would totally reflect when you read the alethiometer when your emotions get clouded as we learn with will and the subtle knife with how he has to operate it lyra's innocence doesn't really cloud her readings right someone whose experience may be more life or more trauma might have more personal or biased opinions to read things from it. Yeah. And as you said, it's kind of like the way that brains are like, it would make sense, right? That a child could potentially understand it better. Like children's minds kind of pick up other languages better. Right. And the alethiometer is speaking in its own language. So yeah, I think there's a lot of that. and you can kind of see maybe why they wouldn't have a child try it. It's just like, I don't know, fancy. It's like made of gold. Yes, child, hold the golden thing.

Yeah, no, don't touch my shit, kid. Charles slash Carlo tries to explain he needed Lyra and the alethiometer to trade the alethiometer back for something else, and then a stone just smashes through the window. Immediately, the adults and monkey gasp, and they're distracted. Will leans forward, darts back, starts to close the windows, but there's a horrible screech, and he realizes, oh, it's the monkey demon. He threatens it with a knife. He's slashing at it. But the monkey tries to come through, but then goes back with the knife, threatening it, and Will closes the window shut.

There's this line here, when the golden monkey's teeth were bared, his eyes glaring in such a concentrated malevolence blazed from him that Will felt it almost like a spear. And I was like, oh my god, it's that word. It's the word that they were talking about, malevolence. What was it? I think Pullman said that the demon has a name. If it had one,

it might be malevolence, right? And if I recall correctly, I think it was Dark Material podcast that was saying that Pullman had revealed that a parent's demons are the ones that name the child's demons. And I'm'm like so what the fuck up was with like Marissa's parents demons were they just like fuck it

we're gonna just neglect our kid and not name the demon I think that probably says a lot about how their relationship was I think Pullman had said it might have been a scholastic interview he had set it in if I recall I've looked through a handful of the different interviews with some of these little snippets now and I think that does say a lot because it seems like that she had big expectations to fill as she grew up.

I mean, she grew up, it seemed, a little more high society, right? Grew up with money. And maybe her parents really didn't give a shit about her because it would explain why the hell she turned out this way. Yeah, that's true. But I like how no one, like, will, or no one thinks, like, damn, Lyra, I told you just. her because it would explain why the hell she turned out this way yeah that's true but i like how no one like will or no one thinks like damn lyra i told you just throw stones to make a small distraction at the window not fucking smash it i mean it does the job very well yeah but she goes hard she does great distraction even more distracting when a window smashes anyway lord

boreal uh and marisa immediately are like whoa whoa whoa will runs to the first window once he's in shidigate looking through he sees the adults and the monkey and the woman they look beautiful in the moonlight carlo is holding a pistol lyra's nowhere to be found and will realizes she must be stuck she must be in a shrub where if she moves she'll be seen there's a noise that comes from the shrub and the monkey is about to find lyra but something comes out of the shrub it's the tabby cat that's been following them and saving their assholes the cat hisses fights with the monkey a bit and lyra is suddenly beside will and then they're tumbling through the window with pan and the cat runs off and they're closing the window and they're safe will feels ly window with Pan, and the cat runs off, and they're closing the window, and they're safe. Will feels Lyra bandaging him in the moonlight, thanking him for everything.

They discuss the cat, and we get this passage from Lyra. You know what I thought? I thought, for a second, she was your demon. She done what a good demon would have done anyway. We rescued her and she rescued us. Come on, Will, don't lie in the grass. It's wet. You got to come and lie down in a proper bed else you'll catch a cold. We'll go in that big house over there. There's bound to be beds and food and stuff. Come on, I'll make a new bandage. I'll put some coffee on to cook. I'll make some omelet, whatever you want, and we'll sleep. we'll be safe now we've got the alethiometer back you'll see i'll do nothing now except help you find your father i promise

i'll be your wife is what i just read basically they're literally married by legal book terms especially as they walk back into the little house. As the official married couples podcast, which is me and you are married, Jamie Lannister and Brienne of Tarth are married, and Will and Lyra are married. Oh, and Lise Goresby and Serafina Pecola. Yes.

Canon marriages, all of them. These are the marriage alliances. All of them. That was chapter nine. right that was good it was a good chapter a lot of things happened good snappy pace action happy ish ending right now yeah and the next chapter is uh is a doozy i think i'm excited it is but you finally get some answers that was the call and we're about to get the response. So a lot of answers in these two chapters.

So this one's called Chapter 10, The Shaman. Lee Scoresby had put his balloon in storage, bought some fuel, and hired a boat with his very dwindling gold, setting up the river to find Grumman in the village of his tribe. And his memory of the area is actually good, so he finds the right course immediately, but the terrain has definitely been changing, and the temperature has disturbed the insects, which now seem to lay in the air around them. So something new about Lee, and if you are one of our patrons

over at patreon.com slash girlsgonecanon, anyone that is in our $5 and up tier has access to our coverage of Once Upon a Time in the North, the Lee Scoresby Spaghetti Western Girls Gone Canon episode. I made a couple claims that Pullman might have been relating some spaghetti westerns and we talked about spaghetti westerns for a while and it turns out I should

have googled harder because Pullman was naming him for partially a spaghetti western the etymology for lee scoresby is that he was named for william scoresby an arctic explorer and lee van cleef who starred in a couple different spaghetti westerns like for a few dollars more and the good the bad and the ugly interesting i would have never never known that deep cuts but i mean it speaks to what we were saying right pullman's just it's his homage in a lot of these to the sorts of things that he loved growing up yeah i love it things that he seems to like now that he's older that we saw in his live stream in his office that is full of things he's working also like on a ship in a bottle too that was one of the things that he was working on i think

and kovid gets us all i think he's just like into that but we saw that pullman actually looks at a lot of maps like literally maps he has one on this wall as he writes uh for the secret commonwealth and whatever the next fucking book is going to be called but there's a lot of geography here in Lee's story and we see it actually throughout all the books like Lee lands on the Yenisei river so fun fact Pullman looks at books

and not only that he has a pair of binoculars not a magnifying glass of binoculars so that he can go and look I guess from his desk or writing area at the map. It's amazing. It's like Zoom. I mean, I guess I would just use my phone. But it's like Zooming in.

It's just so funny. So funny to me. Scoresby, chain smoke some cigars. Interesting. That's difficult to chain smoke. Yeah, really difficult. Like, cartoony. It is. Your lungs gotta be really cartoony it is your lungs got to be really strong maybe it is from being in the air all the time i don't know he smears some

jimson weed ointment on his face and hands then they avoid the bugs and hester sitting cute and silent nearby in the bow as she do yeah adorable we get this really sweet line that i thought was just so reminiscent of lee and hester he was used to her silence and she to his they spoke when they needed to it's just like very they've been together for many years i think it's that it also just says like lee's just got a very clear mind you know they and they know each other so well there's no need to speak right now he's at at peace with himself. Yeah. And, you know, interestingly enough, Jimson Weed that's spoken about

that he has as an ointment, in real life, it's actually very toxic and hallucinogenic. It's called Datura Stramonium is its actual name. It's an annual leafy herbaceous plant. It's powerful and produces delirium

and it's often used in witches brews and love potions, which I thought was interesting. Since all parts of the plant are toxic, poisoning can occur if you consume a large part of it. So I'd guess he doesn't have a strong concentration in this ointment but I'm like, damn Lee, you're out here

tripping. He's just like, whatever. I'm just gonna be navigating. Trying to're out here tripping? He's just like, whatever. I'm just going to be navigating. Trying to get lifted for the spirit realm. Right. He's prepping. The third day, they get high again. No, they tie up to a large rock area with pines and spruces at the bank. He tells Hester the Nova Zembla hunter had told him that there was actually a landing here

and it now had to be six feet below them. They head into the village laying their pack next to the village headsman's wooden house and salute the crowd of villagers that had gathered. He uses the universal northern gesture to show friendship sitting his rifle down at his feet.

There's an old Siberian tartar in the village who does the same with his bow in response, and his wolverine demon and Hester also exchange courtesies. Lee and he work through about a dozen languages before they find one that they both speak, and Lee offers them

smokeweed as a present to his tribe. Although he says it is not worthy, and I'm just thinking, Lee, I got some bunk herb maybe if you still want it i mean i know it's like tobacco but still he's like here's um stale drugs he's like here's some rags basically not even mids just crumple it dust one of the tartar's wives takes the package and Lee goes on saying he's here to seek Grumman, and the Tartar man says they've been waiting for him, as he is supposed to be taking Dr. Grumman to the other world. He beckons him, and they follow, Lee scooping Hester up because she did not want to go through mud, and he's like, that's fair.

did not want to go through mud, and he's like, that's fair. The tent they are led to is wooden-framed, covered in animal skins, boar tusks, elk and deer antlers, but it's not likened to hunting trophies. Instead, these tusks are all celebrated with sprays of pine and flowers all around them, almost kind of ritualistic. The headman stops there, telling Lee to speak with respect to Grumman, as he's a shaman with a sick heart. Lee and Hester feel a shiver, realizing they've been watched the whole time by a yellow eye amidst all the flowers and pine sprays. It's a demon, and she takes a pine spray in her mouth, her beak, drawing it across the space while she watches them.

The headman addresses the shaman finally finally and calls out the name the old hunter had told lee joe parry we have this quote standing in the doorway gaunt blazing eyed was a man dressed in skins and furs his black hair was streaked with gray his jaw jutted strongly and his osprey demon sat glaring on his fist. Quick animal corner, since it's our very first sight of the Osprey Demon. They indicate authority, power, and the master of sea, land, and air, which I think

very much so we see Jopari be. Just like a zebra turkey fish. Exactly. Land, air, or sea, can it make up its mind? I will give you 460 bells to stop. The Hudson bells thrice,

and Lee introduces himself to Dr. Grumman, confirming that you are Stanislaus of the Berlin Academy, right? Then he explains who he is, a Texan aeronaut, blown in strange winds of winter to him. Grumman insists that the sun is warm, and responds to the

strange winds, and asks Lee to bring a bench out of the hut for them, that he will all share coffee with you, right? Grumman's accent is English of England, and not German, like the observatory director had told Lee. They sit with their demons, the osprey glaring

into the sun, and Lee tells the Shaman his story from Chollison to the Gyptians to Yorick and Bolvangar, the children, Seraphina, Pekala, and Lyra. I'm just here laughing. I'm like, damn. Grimm's demons, like, just fucking glaring into the sun. Like, this is a choice.

I just want to know, do Ospreys actually do this? Just, like, glare into the sun? No, it's not normal. Usually they would be flying over sea and looking for prey probably. So I think that it's supposed to be the Ospreys watching, staring to survey what's happening with the global climate change, right? And the impending doom of the war. Because in a way he's staring where Asriel's war is likely affecting he's staring at the sun as it grows warmer i guess that makes sense also because i was just like that's a an interesting choice of a place to look because i'd rather die than do that

i hate staring at the sun that sounds awful i made that mistake recently and i was like i should stop doing this oh my god i can never go outside again I'll just burn I was like on a boat and I was like wow the sunset's so beautiful and I'm staring at it and I'm like this is literally not what I'm supposed to do so Lee explains the way Lyra told him about Grumman's head had seemed like Asriel might have been bluffing

that Grumman would still be alive and would have important knowledge for this business with his shamanic ways in life. But overall, Lee says he sought Grumman for Lyra. I think she's important, and so do the witches. If there's anything you know about her and about what's going on, I'd like you to tell me. As I said, something's given me the conviction you can, which is why I'm here. But unless I'm mistaken, sir, I heard the village headman say that I had come to take you to another world. Did I get it wrong? Or is that truly what he said? And one more question for you, sir. What was the name he called you by? Was that some kind

of tribal name? Some magician's title? Grumman smiled briefly and said, the name he used is my own true name, John Perry. I'm bad at accents. Yes, you have come to take me to the other world. And as for what brought you here, I think you'll find it was this. And he opened his hand. In the palm lay something that Lee could see but not understand. He saw a ring of silver and turquoise, a Navajo design. He saw it clearly and he recognized it as his own mother's.

So as you were saying earlier, Chloe, there's a lot of interesting stuff that's going on here in terms of names. Like you pointed out the names of Charles versus Carlo, both kind of versions of the same name. And there's also, you know, this idea of someone's true name, right? Like Lyra's name that Marissa is seeking. And, you know, we have this idea of Grumman versus Joe Parry versus John Perry. And I think that there's a lot in folklore, right, of the significance that names hold when it comes to magic. People will, you know, I'm sure people know, like, when it comes to magic people will you know

i'm sure people know like when it comes to like fairies sometimes you'll like hide your true name or you don't want someone to know because then they're able to exert influence and power over you rumple stiltzkin rumple stiltzkin is a great example of that and i think that it's also interesting because the names that people use, of course, change the expectations that folks have of them. People kind of assume like, oh, yeah, Sanicel Skrummen, he's German, turns out he's fucking English, right? Or Joe Parry, sounding, I guess it's supposed to sound like this idea of like a more ethnic name or whatever, which is whatever. Versus John Perry and playing around with that. Yeah, there's even what we start the whole entire book with, with Lyra telling Latrum that she's Lizzie. Yes, exactly. And Lyra does that a lot, right?

Playing around with the names. And so there's kind of like that idea of names and defining someone's role, right? And the meaning that it holds in terms of the person but also how it plays well with this idea of symbols that's going through the story especially with the alethiometer talking about how do you define yourself in terms

of your name or insignificance to other things in that language. Like how Coulter showed up as both the mother and the whore yes you know like a lot i was just like oh why is it the madonna but also like the virgin yeah yeah uh that's really interesting in the lantern slides of this book we discussed that back in our patreon only episode about the lantern slides for all three of the

books. Pullman basically talks about this ring and says that you could tell a story about how John Perry acquired the Navajo ring and what happened since it left Lee's mom's hand. And then he implies that it could possibly be around in the future, very vaguely. I think Pullman's full of shit. I think he just didn't know what happened to it beforehand off the top of his head and probably got asked a handful of times and flipped everyone off with this response because he's like i could tell you that but i'm not going to and it might be here in the future like okay sure pullman uh so maybe we'll see it in that last book because spoiler alert we haven't seen it yet i'm waiting i'm waiting for it to come back

you know we'll see. But I don't know. I would have thought an easy backstory was like maybe Lee gambled it away when he was doing his poker. I don't know. Pullman could have just given this ring something. It could have shown up. Interesting. Interesting.

Yeah, and it could show up eventually. I think like how it got here. I don't know. I think it's fine that Pullman is like, I don't really care. I don't care to tell this story. Yeah. And it does serve its purpose, right? Because it gets Lee to him.

Lee remembers holding and touching this ring many times. It's got a chipped stone and it has a Navajo design. Metal wraps over it. All in the lands of his native country and boyhood, he remembers this ring. And now he's standing. Hester is trembling, standing on her hind legs, her ears are pricked compared to their usual ease laid back. The Osprey moves between Lee and John Perry, expecting a confrontation, but Lee is not trying to attack attack he just feels like a child again and he shakily asks where john acquired this ring perry offers it to him saying he summoned lee and its work

was done now yeah so going along with that idea of names uh being tied to people and that symbolism i think there's also something here with objects being tied to people and evocation or summoning, as John does here. And I think that kind of gives us a through line, right, in this story with the idea that certain objects are just tied strongly, destined to be with

people. Like, if the ring was somehow very strongly tied to Lee and is what brought him here, he was kind of destined maybe to be here. Same as how we have like certain objects that are very attached to our child protagonists, right? We have Lyra in the lithiometer, of course, Will in the subtle knife. And we have more to come that we'll talk about in the future on that for sure.

That's a great thought. And you know what? There might even be more. I mean, La Belle Sauvage. I mean, there's a third book called The Amber Spyglass. So what's that about, everyone? No one knows. What's that object? Lee is astonished. He hasn't seen this ring for 40 years. Grumman says he will tell him his story and explain it all.

tell him his story, and explain it all. My name, as I told you, is Perry, and I was not born in this world. Lord Asriel is not the first by any means to travel between the worlds, though he's the first to open the way so spectacularly. In my own world, I was a soldier, then an explorer. Twelve years ago, I was accompanying an expedition to a place in my world that corresponds with your Beringland. I just imagined those first few sentences were said with a little

bit of shade. Like, I can't imagine not. This is what I've been saying the whole time, right? Like, Lord Asriel's not the first, right, everyone? Lara, chill out. Chill out. Anyway, John Perry was seeking a rent in the fabric of the world, a hole between universes.

And then his companions were lost and in searching for them, they entered a different world without even knowing, leaving their own world. They walked until they found a town and then they realized they were in a different world, but they couldn't find their way back as they had gone through a blizzard. Unlike how Lyra and Will have been meticulously counting their footsteps to remember which way they came. Or Ruta Scotty being like, got him. He's between those mountains. I know. So clever. Stuck in a new dangerous place, they found ghouls or apparitions haunting this world.

Deadly apparitions. His companions ended up dying from the specters. We kind of know how that works. And he had to seek a new doorway in a new world as this one was pretty much unlivable for him. And then he discovered something amazing as he entered this new world. His own demon. His demon, Sion Kator,

appeared when he entered Lee's world. People here cannot conceive of worlds where demons are a silent voice in the mind and no more. Can you imagine my astonishment in turn at learning part of my own nature was female and bird formed and beautiful interesting so this is a confirmation moving forward that everyone is born with a demon whether they can see it or not right if someone like you or me who lived in will's world crossed a certain threshold we would find that we had demons that's very and that means that as we cross worlds eliana we're gonna find our demon yeah step one find world step two cross step three question mark

step four profit step four steal all the relics from other places and then call them your own and have a whole nation based off of it. Oh, true, true, true. But, so we've referenced this Tumblr before, Demonomicon on Tumblr. They have this quick line here on what Cyan Cator means after the Cyan Mountains and the Saka word

for bird. And apparently they had actually believed, as we're reminded on the site, that John Perry, as Stanislaus Grumman, was believed to have been killed in an avalanche on Sakhalin. Oh, that's a great catch.

And it is a really good catch. There was actually a user on Reddit this week, ShearsOfAtropos, over on the HisDarkMaterials Reddit. I'll link their profile they have a friend who is a member of the yakuts or the saka people the friend in question actually calls himself yakuts and the yakuts are a turkic ethnic group who mainly live in the republic of saka in the russian federation john perry's demon's name is actually Yakuts,

and the exact translation is a little different than what Demonicon reported. The slight variations in it are that Yaskator does mean bird, and scion, depending on the context, actually can mean generous, mighty, and uplifting as well. And they go on to talk about Ivan Kazimovic-Tilchin, who is who taught John Perry his shamanism. They said there's a good chance that Ivan is Yakut because of converting

to Russian Orthodox Christianity. Many Yakuts have Russian Orthodox Christian names. This connection is something obvious to those who speak Russian or another Slavonic language, but for those who do not, Ivan is the Slavonic equivalent of John. So as in John Perry would be in Slavonic Ivan. Also, they have something really interesting about the Yakut worldview because the Yakut see three different worlds. A lower world, a middle world, and an upper world. a lower world a middle world and an upper world the lower world where demons live the middle world where people live and the upper world where good spirits are as a shaman Ivan may have been a little worried when John arrived thinking he came from maybe the lower upper worlds but probably understood eventually that he crossed from a parallel world I thought that was

just really interesting to get a perspective from someone from the aku yes and i think it's really cool that someone was able to bring that that perspective and share all that too and i didn't i mean obviously i didn't know a bunch of these things so the fact that ivan is john like it's slavonic equivalent of john is really cool i thought that was very interesting, especially with all the name stuff you've been talking about. Yeah, but yeah, definitely. And that back and forth,

as you said, it's the Carlo Charles effect. Le Tromboreal, whatever. Le Tromboreal, he was just like having fun. He's like, mortal backwards. Edgy. I'm goth. So they wandered through the Arcticctic and uh john perry begins to fill in a lot of the mysteries that he's been searching for um and all the knowledge that he's

gained he talks to people about some of this knowledge but he never tells them his origins he applies to the berlin academy under the name grumman releasing a thesis in their method that was better informed than their academia, so he was instantly in what was his thesis on? That's what I want to know like, was it on something that everyone fucking knows in this world? It must be Yeah, that's the only thing that I

can understand, but I wish that it was included Anyways, his credentials allowed him to work in this world, contented missing some things about his old life. John Perry asks if Lee is married, you know, because he says he misses some things about his old life. And Lee lies. He says no, because he's actually married to Serafina Pecola. But, you know, it's fine.

Grumman says he missed his wife, his only child, a boy who was not even one years old when he left this world. But he knew he may never find his way back and sought knowledge in place of it through initiation into the cult of skulls and shamanism. He discovered an ointment of blood moss that preserves all of the plant and he knows most of dust now. He knows what asriel's doing and he means to help him as the task asriel's undertaken is the greatest task in 35 000 years of human history and that's what i thought that was a great uh a great what should be called a confirmation of how old history actually is right there from john perry i think that's also rounded right but based on some other things later but yeah yeah it's a that number again from earlier in the book and that's where Lee comes in he needs Lee to help him

go help Asriel he was intrigued in the world where specters fed on people when he first arrived here so as a shaman he learned that he can go to the spirit world in his mind, and John Perry learned to astral project, which I think is a totally interesting concept to add into this. I'm actually bummed we don't see a lot more of it, but that is kind of how it's implied he used the Navajo ring to connect with Lee, right? And to astral project himself and slowly bring Lee to him. And there's something about disability that can really be said here. Sometimes as a disabled person, like it's not easy to move. It's just not.

And John Perry's dying. He's not living anymore. He's spending his days dying to help fulfill some great war role to sacrifice himself so that his family, his children, right? His child might have a chance to have a good life, free of the chains the Authority's trying to hoist on them. And being able to astral project, to travel without spending the pain and physical effort of doing so, like, that would waste his body's last few days. And when you know you're powerful, but you're limited physically, being able to channel it through your mind is incredible and it's awesome

that Pullman lets him wield that power instead I like having him as a character in that aspect even though I know I can roll my eyes at some of the indigenous aspects I think that's a really great point about that ability to astral project like it's it's something that it's important that sort of idea of escapism or hope or feeling that he has some control over his life right and i think that's something that a lot of people when they live with disability uh struggle to try and get yeah an escape that sense of control escape and control some sort of way to channel it things that they can yeah and the philosophers in this world centuries ago had a tool. It was called...

What was it called? Was it a knife? Maybe. A hidden letter opener? No, I think it was a bejeweled dagger. A bejeweled dagger? It was the

subtle knife, Eliana. It was the subtle knife. Theyiana. It was the subtle knife. They let Spectres in with it, as we know, and now John Perry needs to find the knife bearer and figure out what role he is to play in Asriel's War. You know, is it Asriel's War?

Okay, anyway, sorry. Agreed. Why does he get all the credit? And Lee is to fly John Perry into the world to find that bearer. He does warn Lee of danger, right? The specter is being uncanny to

anything that he's ever seen, or technically not seen, throwing that out there. Kind of seen. That he'll need his courage and craft and luck. Lee is, of course, not ready to launch into this whole war on heaven shit with John Perry and he says it's insane. He's like you are the man yelling at

Cloud. Grimmon offers gold. Lee's like I didn't come here for that. I came mostly to satisfy my own curiosity. You know at the same time if someone is using my dead mom's ring to haunt me when I'm like 69 years old and I've already thrown all caution to the wind for some like

11 year old kid then I guess I too would want to go adventure to figure out where the voices are coming from I totally get it I really do yeah why not why not so Lee gives him the rest of his reason to be here he told Grumman of the witch council

at Lake Inara and the resolution the witches had sworn to. You see, he finished, that little girl Lyra, well, she's the reason I set out to help the witches in the first place. You say you brought me here with that Navajo ring? Maybe that's so, or maybe it ain't. What I know is, I came here because I thought I'd be helping Lyra. I ain't never seen a child like that. If I had a daughter of my own, I hope she'd be half as strong and brave as good. Now, I'd heard you knew of some object, I didn't know what it might be, that confers a protection on anyone who holds it. And from what you say, I think it must be this subtle knife. So this is my price for taking you

into the other world, Dr. Grumman. Not gold, but that subtle knife. And I don't want it for myself. I want it for Lyra. You have to swear you'll get her under the protection of that object, and then I'll take you wherever you want to go. The shaman listened closely and said, Very well, Mr. Scoresby, I swear. Do you trust my oath?

What will you swear by? Name anything you like. Lee thought and then said Swear by whatever it was made you turn down the love of the witch I guess that's the most important thing you know Grumman's eyes widened and he said You guess well, Mr. Scoresby I'll gladly swear by that I give you my word that I'll make certain the child Lyra Block was under the protection of the subtle knife.

But I warn you, the bearer of that knife has his own task to do, and it may be that his doing it will put her into even greater danger. In Northern Lights, we had that exceptional discussion with Serafina and Lee about free will and choice. And I think it echoes well here when we talk about turning down the love of a witch so i'd like to come back to it mr scoresby said the witch i wish i could answer your question all i can say is that all of us humans witches bears are engaged in a war already although not all of us know it whether you find danger on Svalbard or whether you fly off unharmed, you're a recruit under arms, a soldier. And here Lee is once more choosing a side. He's a very different Lee than the one we knew in the end of the first book, and it's much

like Eliana kind of criticized. Is this Asriel's war? No no this is the people's war Asriel is not the person that has his ass on the front line all these other people that are joining him do though to Lise Goresby Lyra stands for good what good is left in this world innocence free will and it's interesting that Lee is signing this delivery contract for him and Grumman, and it ends signed with a witch, just like his choice for war in the first book ends signed with Serafina and Lyra. He asks Grumman to swear on his rejection of a witch's love. Is this also a rejection of a witch's love for Lee in a way? Interesting. A rejection of love on his end. Interesting. A rejection of love on his end. a lot sadder in the long run that two people that have lived this life for many years, while Lee might not have as many years as a witch, and John Perry might not have as many years

as the witch that he turned down, them turning down that love. What does it mean? Yeah, and eventually it gets to a point where some of the witches stop because they're like, I don't know, it hurts a lot. My heart keeps breaking. But Seraphine is still young.

Lee's both young and old. He's immortal. He just wants to guarantee any safety he can give to Lyra in his time here. He asks if the winds will be too much, though, for Grumman Perry. But Grumman says, leave them to me! They ready to leave, and Grumman and the villagers exchange blessings

and goodbyes, and Lee watches the skies. The fog is still hanging heavy, but a promise of it is clearing. They cast off, heading up the river, and Lee suddenly feels afraid for Hester. He thinks, but she was a seasoned traveler. He should have known that. Why was he so damn jumpy? Interesting. Would love to know why.

Getting back to the port, there's no private lodging available that hasn't been commandeered by soldiers of the muscovy imperial guard ferocious well-trained and equipped they're sworn to uphold the magisterium's power the boatman at the harbor says they've taken all ships and food in the city and they would have taken lee's boat if he hadn't already taken it with him they're going north where the grace's War will be fought into the New World. Soon the breads and spirits would disappear and unfortunately they've already requisitioned Lee's balloon. Lee then remembers one of his get out of jail free cards and asks if they've collected the balloon yet. The boatman says they have not and Lee pulls out his other ring,

the dead, scrailing magisterium ring. The sergeant beside the boatman salutes Lee very formally and Lee makes his demands with the church's signet, requesting balloon, gas, supply, etc. They shrug and go to deal with it, and Grumman and him discuss if they were good or if their cover's probably blown. Grumman's like, I think we can get away before they report us. So off they go. Grumman promises Lee a wind and here it comes. He is using his powers to summon it. Lee prepares them to fly

and hands over his last bit of gold to the warehouse men, but they're not fast enough because a man yells, Halt! And Lee overrides the halt. He tells the men to cast them off. Some of the men do but a couple of them rookie mistake hold on to the ropes and lee's like yo idiots let go she's going up whether you want it to or not yeah and one man lets go but the other clings on and he's like shit i've

seen this happen before and he dreads it uh the man's husky demon then howls in pain as the balloon goes up and the man falls from the balloon half dead hits the water and then it's just over for him by the time the soldiers are caught up a few bullets whistle by and at worst stinging actually Lee's hands

they speed over the sea and his heart lifts yes Lee's true love whether i really want to debate it or not is definitely the skies his internal monologue after this is really nice he thinks he'd said once to seraphina pecula he didn't care for flying that was only a job but he hadn't meant it soaring upward with a fair wind behind and a new world in front what could be better in this life well the only thing that could be better is believing and fighting for something and being

noble for that belief which is what he's doing right now this isn't like many other things lee's done in his life but then again his life hasn't been the same in a little while that's true it's been quite extraordinary and that's such like a western thing right yes the new horizons yeah the new horizons oh yeah absolutely new horizons the that's that's a big appeal of the west but also the the out the the whatever prairie i don't know fucking that that's my true love yeah you know i'm trying to say out in the plains when i'm not eating my horse the wilderness yes and but his horse is uh the balloon then yes we close out the chapter with well dr grumman he said i don't know about you but i feel better in the air i wish that poor

man had let go of the rope though it's so damned easy do, and if you don't let go at once, there's no hope for you. Thank you, Mr. Scoresby, said the shaman. You managed that very well. Now we settle down and fly. I'd be grateful for those furs. The air is still cold. Man gets lucky every once in a while. well those were chapter nine and chapter ten i guess now uh if you have not finished the main three books you might want to sign off of the episode come back later we're going to get dusty and talk about everything

up through the end of the amber spyglass together following that eliana will bail out for a hot second and i will monologue sadly about the secret commonwealth yes so of course in this discussion we're going to dive into some things i'd go all the way up until the amber spyglass sigh okay we have to talk right now real quickly because I don't know how we're going to do that episode when he dies because I'm going to be very sad yeah Chloe's going to cry

I cried writing this episode Eliana I believe it I'm a little bitch I'm going to be honest Chloe's the crier I keep trying to say crying and your name at the same time and it's a fork I don't know my brain's like you said the fork in the dish

the garbage disposal yeah you cry a lot you're the crying part of this you are sensitive this episode wasn't any different like okay so Will and lyra in this episode there's this line that i read it and i was immediately like fuck you philip pullman

the two of them were close enough to touch will in his world she and shitagatze and seeing his trailing bandage lyra tapped him on the arm and mimed tying it up again so literally the two of them were close enough to touch but they're through windows in other worlds yeah it's straight up just foreshadowing through the end tearing them apart it is but on a happier note in terms of uh foreshadowing and windows lyra may be smashing the window is that about opening a new window into the world of the dead so that they can be reunited one day okay that's very true that's very true maybe leave a hole there you're on you know eliana you say some stuff sometimes and i'm like that girl's pretty bright pretty. Sometimes she's like a fork in a garbage dispenser. Anyway,

there's also the foreshadowing of John Perry finding his demon. Obviously, I nodded very hard in the episode to this, if you didn't catch it, without saying it. But the fact that John Perry found his demon when he went into another world, like father, like son.

Yes, definitely. And you know something I thought of, Eliana? Like father, like into another world like father like son yes definitely and you know something I thought of Eliana like father like son his father is a type of medicine man so is he oh my god you're right I didn't even think about that I'll talk more about that in the dusty discussion

I had just been thinking about the um the nod to him saying that he's been doing research on blood moss with Will's fingers and that coming into play later but yeah you're right they're both healers

and I think that is something even in the books of dust that might become I don't know not important but it might mean something so very interesting I didn't really catch that until, but it might mean something. So very interesting. I didn't really catch that until this time around. But then I realized, huh, no wonder it's in Will's blood. Yeah. And then, of course, you know, let's talk about some of that wine again.

I love wine, Eliana. So I will do that for you. I say as Chloe swigs a goblet of vodka. We talked a little bit about toque being used for influence, and I think it was set up really well here as a political agreement tool and as a guest right tool in this situation. Marisa and Carlo being allies here,

Marisa accepting the wine means her accepting his friendship, right? And of course, later on, Marisa uses wine, and it possibly could be tokay to kill carlo slash charles whatever you want to call him later it's a really strong three punch because we start the books the very first chapter with asriel almost being poisoned not even just counting its minor uses but with the framework of its involvement in death later roger's shadow and lyra recant

the possible imbibement in tokay which is such a cute line in the amber spyglass lyra began to talk about the world she knew she told them the story of how she and roger had climbed over jordan college roof and found the rook with the broken leg and how they had looked after it until it was ready to fly again and how they'd explored the wine cellars, all thick with dust and cobwebs, and drunk some canary, or it might have been some tokay, she couldn't tell. And how drunk they'd been. And Roger's ghost listened, proud and desperate, nodding and whispering, Yes, yes, that's what happened, that's true, alright. I think it's a sweet scene with Will sitting back too even though uh roger was overly

familiar with his girlfriend you know what i mean yeah but roger was jealous even though he was dead it was it was really interesting but i think that's that's a great point with uh all of this tying back together and it's something that i think it'll be interesting to see how it's portrayed in the show right because there's a lot of scenes where they had Mrs. Coulter offering drinks to people. Yes, like with the Magisterium coming over. or tokay and i'm like that's cute lyra thinks that she was drinking something really expensive maybe but maybe she and roger just got hammered on like old three buck fucking hooch old franzia yeah they don't know they're like yeah this is the good shit there's something interesting i noticed this read about the spy network that boreal mentions uh that he's been lying to marisa and that he's actually become

a spy and a couple things it feels like some setup for the galavespian spies tialis and selmakia later on as we get to the amber spyglass yes and i won't go too hard into this and we will save this for when we talk about the books of dust in their individual episodes i'm sure but i wonder if this is a parallel to oakley street that we're introduced to very briefly uh it feels like a an intentional parallel to oakley street like it's contrast of here's a good spy network here's a bad spy network i could see that maybe you know same as how Pullman was into westerns he started getting more into like spy movies and shit in the 2000s well Emporio the spy who shagged me

oh my god I would watch that yep me too yes but also another dusty thing so we have this line here swear by whatever it was made you turn down

the love of the witch i guess that's the most important thing you know from lida grumman slash perry man i i do love that joe parry does swear by this but doesn't really age great since you know he gets murdered by the witch who loved him that he rejected. I mean, that kind of makes it even more... It's intentional, obviously. It's more poignant, I think, right? Because if he gets murdered by that witch, that goes to show

how strong it was. Basically, you're signing your death certificate, I guess. Yeah, absolutely. Both of them were, though. So, with what we kind of spoke about earlier in the episode, Lee Scoresby kind of forgets about Serafina's love till it's

too late, just like John Perry forgets about this witch's love till it's too late. Although Serafina's unable to save him, she does preserve Lee Scoresby's body for Yorick, right, to free him. But it... Wholesome free him. But it- Wholesome.

Right. And it's a little sad and coincidental because Lee signed his fate for the witch, and so did Grumman. Yeah, that's true. And I- so, okay, a question that I have is, like, with all of this, John Perry doesn't know the details of how he dies, right? Just that he won't make it back because he's like in poor health so not surprising or else he'd know about who he meets as the bearer if he like knew all that stuff he'd know who the bearer is right so there's a limit to how much like can actually be scryed but do you think that john perry knows that he's also essentially signing lee's death certificate. Yeah, I do think he does. I think he knows Lee's going to die.

Again, I don't think he knows exactly how, and I don't think it's the love of a witch is something that Lee is having him swear it on, you know, for his own sake. But I don't think John Perry knows, again, the technicalities of what's going to happen. But I think he does know that lee is the person who is here to transport him between worlds and sacrifice his life for this war

and it's just like what seraphina says like you are a soldier now lee this is who you are you're a hired gun whether you admit it or not yeah and i mean they're also both doing the thing that john perry's swearing on that made him turn down the love of the witch, right? It's his love for Elaine and Will. Just as Lee's thing that kind of makes him forget about Serafina for a moment is his love for Lyra. He's like, we're doing this for Lyra. In the larger picture, right? It's those people, the other people that they love. And last episode, we talked a bit about bonds and what can cut them and what can't cut

them right we talked about the bonds between will and elaine also the ones between will and lyra and we're seeing in this chapter that these bonds of destiny right between people and objects one of them is the flower that you reference seraphina's flower um that can be used to summon her uh but i i think that we're seeing here right with john perry uh that these ones between people obviously they're stronger than objects we see it at the end of the series and john perry doesn't even realize how strong these things are he's like sure i'll swear on this but like it's been 10 fucking years he doesn't say it right but he's like it's been a long ass time it's why i'm in such bad health uh as we learn right that's the reason will and larry can't stay in each other's worlds yeah and we see that the thing that he

swore on even though he thinks it's those ties have been severed, it is his love for Elaine and Will. And he's wrong that just because he lived his whole life in another world means. And he says himself, I might search for a thousand years and never find the way back. We were sundered forever. And they weren't. And I think that's one of the really beautiful arguments that His Dark Materials is making. That the bonds between people are the strongest ones. they span worlds they span time and distance because not only is there will and lyra will and john actually end up of course reunited at the end of this book they're destined

to meet and it's necessary for destiny's end and i mean obviously it's a story and like, we can have that sort of like, tie together right there. But it wasn't broken. Will saying to himself years from now you know he thinks about Lyra I might search for a thousand years and never find the way back and with what you say it's very similar you know he's wasted his health away and now he's about to die after 10 12 years away from his love which is what Will and Lyra realize what happened to them um I'm gonna talk a little bit about the end of the Amber Spyglass in just a few minutes, which you won't hear. But I am going to bring up when Will gets passionate and says, Lyra, it's a half-life. Like, I'd be cursed to watch you, you know, you deteriorate in my world. How could I do that? It's different kinds of sacrifice there, right?

Like, they are sacrificing getting to be with one another, that short-term happiness in the hopes that the other can live a full life. That's a form of sacrifice. We keep bringing up this idea of sacrifice, of course, right? Like, Lee dying eventually, Lyra's parents, and John Perry's doing that unknowingly.

He's sacrificing his life for his son, too. Yeah. Lee does it, does it it's they both i think they both know where they're heading though i think uh that god that pit in lee's stomach when he thinks why am i so nervous all of a sudden i've done this a million times with hester that's the worst that's the's the fucking worst. I did like the language there, right? He's like, why am I so jumpy considering his demons? An arctic hare? A rabbit.

Yes, sorry, not a rabbit. An arctic hare. You're correct. Excuse me? Don't disrespect our queen. She always knew she was more sophisticated. I always knew I had more class than that. Yes, there it is. I love her so much. That's exactly it. If my cat, Alysanne, could talk, she'd probably be Hester.

Is that what she'd say? No shit. We call her little Hester all the time because she's chubby. She's got little chubby thighs and she's got weird ears. She's just like a little rabbit sometimes. It's real cute. All right. Well, enough cuteness.

I have to go get sad. So you, Eliana, I'm going to need you to hold down the fort sitting there in your darkness because we are about to get really dusty. So if you have not read the two books of dust, please tune out. We'll chat with you next week. Eliana has to sit this one out as well. But come back when you finish them up and we'll go from there. I'm going to do some monologuing.

Lo, one of our friends, sent us an email asking, if Will learns to do some of these things that his dad has learned about soul traveling, as I've discussed with Chloe before, what do we make of that in relation to his dad learning from the Tartars? Will Will be able to learn by himself? Will he have to go on his own spiritual journey like what Lyra does in the secret commonwealth so they can meet one last time before choosing to let each other go? I love this question so much and I really hope there is the point of view of Will. I think we have a lot to wrap up in the secret commonwealth. I don't know if Will is going to keep that POV on his own. However, if we do get a little bit of Will having his own POV doing those things, I would like to see that. I would

like to see maybe some guidance from Mary Malone with what she knows of dust and of spirits maybe guiding him since they are in the same world. And this is a great chapter to bring this up since we learn a little bit about that spirit world today from John Perry. Will ends up a doctor, like we said earlier, just like his father, a revered shaman. So maybe it's in the blood, but I do think there is a strong connection to the new way of reading the alethiometer.

We see it come up in the Secret Commonwealth, and the language is very similar to what's talked about here in this chapter. She has a dream first of a cat on the moonlit lawn before she starts to use the Alethiometer in this way again in the Secret Commonwealth. This cat comes up to her and rubs up on her, and she dreams of it. It's Kerjava. She also dreams of the red building in the desert, that it holds some sort of answer, but the dream is fleeting and she can't grasp it. Later, trying to bring that dream back, Lyra reads the alethiometer using this new way to get further answers and she feels horribly sick and dizzy while she does so, a lot like Will when

he loses his fingers and when they're constantly bleeding during the subtle knife. Lyra thinks, just like we spoke about earlier with John Perry, could it go wrong? I could get lost and never come back. The visions end up changing, and she sees a cat, a different one, and a young man who holds an alethiometer who looks just like Will. In fact, even in my gut, I thought it was Will, until he turns, and it's not Will. It's Olivier Bonneville. The cat isn't a demon. His demon is a sparrowhawk, staring out at her with yellow eyes, much like the osprey in this chapter. The cat's vanished. Lyra closes the door between her and Kylo Ren and escapes this vision as he stares straight back into her eyes. Roger's ghost as foreshadowing for Lyra to set free will in herself might be something

being played with in the future. Letting Lyra learn to love herself and Pan again, getting rid of that self-loathing, it's something I know I've spoken a lot about with Her Dark Materials and the Dark Materials cast over on our Secret Commonwealth episode that we had when Eliana was out of town. But I want to bring up another really famous piece of mythos that I've mentioned on and off. Orpheus and Eurydice. We all know the classic tale. Orpheus' wife is stuck in the underworld. He makes a deal with Hades to bring her back, but under one condition. She has to follow him while walking out through the light from the underworld, and he cannot look at her until they emerge, or he will lose her forever. If he's

patient, she'll be a normal, lively woman when they emerge. Unable to hear her footsteps, he begins to get anxious and fear that he's being fooled by Hades. Only a few feet from the exit, Orpheus loses faith, turns to look at Eurydice, and her shade is whisked back to the underworld, trapped forever. He tries to return to the underworld, but it turns out you can't go back to the underworld twice if you're alive. Recently, this story was used to inform part of the plot for A Portrait of a Lady on Fire, in which Skiyama turns the tables on the myth's ending. The main characters of the movie have a debate about what made Orpheus turn around. One of the main

characters speculates Orpheus made a choice to live with Yuridice's memory. The other counters maybe Yuridice asked Orpheus to turn around around. Sciamma explains she chose this allegory to explain these two characters had limited time together, and both knew the finality of their relationships. The same's true of Will and Lyra. In the Amber Spyglass, they learn the score. They know the finality of their relationship. They know they can't tear open the worlds to be together in the end, because it means devastation not just to one of them,

who would live a short half-life in the other's world and force the other to lose them so early on, but also to the entire universe as they exist. Much like you have the Tenth Doctor in Doctor Who burning up a sun to say goodbye to Rose Tyler. In the Amber Spyglass, we have this passage from Will towards the end. Do you think I could live happily, watching you get sick and ill and fade away and then die, while I was getting stronger and more grown up, day by day? Ten years, that's nothing. It'd pass in a flash. We'd be in our twenties, it's not that far ahead. Think of that, Lyra, you and me, grown up, just preparing to do all the things we want to do, and then it all comes to an end?

Do you think I could bear to live on after you died? Oh, Lyra, I'd follow you down to the world of the dead without thinking twice about it, just like you followed Roger. That would be two lives gone for nothing. My life wasted like yours. No, we should spend our whole lifetimes together. Good, long, busy lives. And if we can't spend them together, we'll have to spend them apart. Much like Orpheus learns, he can't go back twice.

A living person cannot access the underworld for a second time, not until it's their turn to go. In the end, just like Orpheus, Lyra will have to look at Will, maybe in the red barn of her dreams deep within the desert if that's where the rose oil is. Maybe that is a beacon you can go talk to the dead or talk to other worlds through. But I do think that Lyra will look back on him to say goodbye. But I do think that Lyra will look back on him to say goodbye. And maybe Will will hear her, but maybe he won't have seen her in the first place.

This hole in Rift is in Lyra's heart. She's been torn in two throughout the years, and now she's lost. She's at war not just with the Authority, but with herself, with Pan. And I think that for Lyra to be able to solve that rift i think it's a very will-sized rift i don't think they'll be able to be together in the end but i think closure is all they can grasp and i do think that this new reading of the alethiometer is very very very much like walking the spirit plane and i think there's going to be something involved in that especially when you look at malcolm's migraine headaches that come out with the migraine rings, the sparkly rings, the rose oil people putting in their eyes for visions.

There has to be some sort of centralized idea about it all. And I think we're going to get it. Well, thanks so much, Lo, for the inspiration. And thanks so much for tuning in i will try to bring eliana back to us now well welcome back eliana thanks for tuning out i can't wait till you can hear what i said because it was absolutely devastating and sad it looked it i was uh i would look over every now and then and see you gesticulating and you looked impassioned impassioned impatience perhaps with me alright Boreal am I? tell everyone

what you think what's up what are we going to do for next month the next two chapters I guess well so first of all next month we're going to resume our song Song of Ice and Fire podcast, which I'm sure many of you know about. We talk about that book series. And,

and then, you know, this month for Patreon, we are doing an A Song of Ice and Fire Patreon episode. It will be about the free city of Myr. But next month, right, we are going to do the next chapters

of 11 and 12 in The Subtle Knife, and we will be doing a we're going to do, we have a couple of possibilities, right? We got free choice. Free him. Yes. Free him.

Everyone will think that we're just very against Girls Gone Canon. Free Will. for you. Everyone will think that we're just very against Girls Gone Canon free will. Yes, well, make sure you keep an eye out. Patrons, you will see an update, I'm sure, when we figure out what that episode is, if you don't hear

about it in another episode. But you can also check out on social media where we'll also announce those things. You can check that out at Girls Gone Canon on Twitter, C-A-N-O-N. Or send us an email if you have some thoughts about this episode at girlsgonecanon at gmail.com. And of course, you can find us on podcast platforms such as Google Play, Apple Podcasts, Podbean, where all of this is hosted, Acast, Stitcher, Spotify,

and I don't know, a bunch of like other random stuff that shows up on search engines whenever I happen to search for us. Yeah, Google us, you know? Get out there. And again, don't forget to check out our Patreon at patreon.com slash girls gone canon

and of course thank you everyone i've been one of your hosts eliana and i have been another one of your hosts chloe yes stay healthy and safe and dusty yes dusty stay dusty, but not the wrong kind of dusty.