Girls Gone Canon Cast - His Dark Materials Episode 15 - The Subtle Knife Chapters 13 & 14

Episode Date: July 31, 2020

The Subtle Knife gets spellbound in these last two chapters, full of magic and heartbreak. And spells aren't enough to stop the flow of blood from Will's hands—nor the flow of the tears down Chloe's face.    CHAPTER 13 - Æsahættr CHAPTER 14 - Alamo Gulch   Links mentioned: The Pitch Meeting for Wishbone    ---   Eliana's twitter: https://twitter.com/arhythmetric Eliana's reddit account: https://www.reddit.com/user/glass_table_girl Eliana's blog: https://themanyfacedblog.wordpress.com/ Chloe's twitter: https://twitter.com/liesandarbor Chloe's blog: www.liesandarborgold.com Intro: Waltz Of The Skeleton Keys by WombatNoisesAudio | https://soundcloud.com/user-734462061

you're listening to girls gone canon covering his dark materials hello everyone and welcome to girls gone Canon, His Dark Materials, read-through episode 15, The Subtle Knife, chapters 13 and 14, Asa Hader and Alamo Gulch. I am one of your hosts, Aliana. liana and i am another one of your hosts chloe and we are so excited i guess to bring you these two episodes i'm the first one's pretty badass right a little metal the second one's actually really metal but devastating yeah chloe's says she's not gonna to cry, but I think she's going to cry. She was, like, having an emotional breakdown as she was outlining this episode. I had an emotional breakdown this morning about it already, so I wonder if my tears are good. You know what I mean?

Like, maybe I cried them all out. In any case, I do have a shot of vodka ready to heal what ails me, which is Lise Goresby and Hester. I mean, maybe you've cried them all out, or maybe your tears are like Will's wound right now. Oh my god, just bleeding and bleeding and bleeding all over the place. Yeah, pretty much. God, bloody McBloodypants. Hey,

this is our second to last Subtle Knife episode. It is gonna be a doozy it's going to be thick and buckle up stay in there i'm not going to cry maybe if you are this far with us second to last episode but you know how we do this but just so uh we are clear about this up front we are doing this read-through with a presumption that many people or maybe not you know but we are doing this read-through with a presumption that many people, or maybe not, you know, but we are doing the chapters as technically spoiler-free. We might slip here and there, hints at things, right? And then we have a dust-scussion at the end, where we talk about what's going on in these chapters, and maybe how they relate to things that are in the story overall whether it's up

until like the end of the amber spyglass or perhaps uh there's a dusty discussion or dustier discussion but i don't know if we're doing that this episode or not of course our discussion has been getting a little cleaner as we come closer towards the end less stuff to discuss but along with that some of the things that might get covered in the dustyy Discussion, if we have one, are things that you can dive into more in depth in our August Patreon episode, which is going to be about La Belle Sauvage, episode 2, covering chapters 4 through 6. And you can get that on Patreon next month, because this month we are doing another A Song of Ice and Fire episode.

Yes, episode 1 for patrons who are ready to read La Belle Sauvage with us girls. You can check that on patreon.com slash girlsgonecanon for the Stranger tier and above. It will be released eventually for the public this fall, but

for now, we will also talk about a good friend of the podcast, a sister podcast across the pond, if you will, Her Dark Materials. You might remember them for those of you who have listened to the Secret Commonwealth Across Worlds Joining Worlds special with Her Dark Materials and the Dark Materials podcast. materials podcast faye and rachel over at her dark materials are doing a watch on august 1st on their discord for patrons two dollars plus of the golden compass you might remember watching that with us oh back on patreon episode 14 i think it was 14 15 16 somewhere in there i don't know that was back when we could like be in the same place. Remember that? God, it was nuts. It's the video one. Check it

out. It's a Vimeo. It's a Vimeo if you have the time. But please come hang out with us this Saturday. We are going to be checking out that watch through of The Golden Compass. It's sure to be fun. Yeah. Those two crack me up. They are planning snacks already

that are themed to go along with the movie and with the first book and what are uh have you heard any of them what what would you plan so people have been discussing getting jerky right uh because jerky is consumed uh throughout the story and i think they uh linked some spice cakes a recipe to them I said maybe hazelnut cream is a stand-in for seal blubber turns out people have also found affordable tokaji or tokai so the they're doing that as well and as a reminder I think the viewing is going to be on Saturday August 1st 10 p.m British time is that the proper terminology for that time zone? But 5pm EST is I'm pretty sure what that is. ET, yeah. I'm excited. And as you said, they joined us for the Secret Commonwealth and I want to give everyone an update.

So I ordered this from, again, a local bookstore that has been very overwhelmed with orders and an influx of new business, which is fantastic for them. But I think it meant that my order got a little delayed. But I did get a confirmation. So maybe I didn't actually totally fuck up how I ordered these books. Because again, I ordered it in the same order as a book that is back ordered, as well as one that is pre-ordered, that comes out in October. So we'll see how things go. You know, I think we'll make it out alive. We have a lot of book to go for the upcoming LaBelle Sausage,

and of course for the actual show. The show just put out the Season 2 Comic-Con at Home trailer. Oh yes! It's very fun. If you haven't finished The Subtle Knife, and if you're not interested in spoilers for the production of the show, I highly urge you go check out that trailer. It was pretty good. I picked it apart over on our Twitter at Girls Gone Canon, C-A-N-O-N, Twitter. And that was fun, too.

Lots of fun little details. Some really cool, lots of angel stuff that I noticed, like decorations that I thought were just really neat. Very excited for season two. Lots of characters that have been cast. Mary Malone looks really good from the trailers, so

buckle up. Ruta Scotti was also cast, and it looks like they might be building out the Witches storyline more as the same way that they did with Lord Boreal's character which I think would be good because I think I would really like a more fleshed out and multi-dimensional no pun intended now that I think about it um Ruta Scotti than the one we have in this chapter. I'm gonna be honest we're gonna talk about that because i didn't realize you had feelings about ruta scotty and i'm actually i think i have some as well so let's jump into it i'm raring to go obviously i just keep trying to jump us into it but let's get into

ace a hater i really like this chapter we started off with the witches who are beginning their spell to heal will he lies the knife on the ground and lyra stirs herbs in a boiling pot while the witches clap and cry out in rhythm seraphina calls out in song little knife they tore your iron out of mother earth's entrails built a fire and boiled the ore made it weep in blood and flood hammered it and tempered it plunging it in icy water heating it inside the forge till your blade was blood-red scorching And yet again until the steam was boiling fog And the water cried for mercy When you sliced a single shade into thirty thousand shadows Then they knew you were ready They called you Subtle One But Little Knife, what have you done?

Unlocked blood gates left them wide Little Knife, your mother calls you From the entrails of the earth From her deepest mines and caverns, from her secret iron womb. Listen! Wow, that's very sexual imagery. I didn't really realize it until you read it to me.

Oh. So I don't know what you want to make of that, but... I didn't notice this 30,000 shadows, which... I did, and that was, like, the first thing I saw in this passage and made me think of the 30,000 shadows, which... I did, and that was the first thing I saw in this passage and made me think of the 30,000 years and shadows. Wow. There's a lot in this.

There's also, if you are a Song of Ice and Fire fan, a little bit of an Azor Ahai kind of thing going on with this hammering and tempering a weapon and plunging it in icy water heating it in the forge till it's blood red and scorching which i feel like again is an analogy a sexual analogy yeah interesting and very like woomy lots of wombiness lots of cavernous going on here secret iron womb okay um yeah fertility you know all that jazz is the earth's womb that secret whole planet i mean i guess yeah yeah just in tune with gaia

online oh my god i used to be so in tune lyra stamps and claps with the witches who make a wild chill inspiring guttural noise. Seraphina takes Will's hand and speaks once more in a high, fierce voice. Blood, obey me. Turn around. Be a lake and not a river. When you reach the open air, stop and build a clotted wall. Build it firm to hold the flood back. Blood, your sky is the skull dome. Your sun is the open eye. Your wind, the breath inside the lungs. Blood, your world is bounded. Stay there.

There's something so interesting with the way this chapter opens. I don't know, it's very monologue-esque. It reminds me of what I would probably be reading for fine arts camp auditions for a scholarship. That was a very personal anecdote. I hope someone can relate. It reminds me in contrast of some of the passages in the Scottish play, like the dagger of the mind soliloquy with the knife being the subject which total sidebar but dagger of the mind i just realized that soliloquy is from where the fear is the mind killer from dune probably translates from yeah probably i know i didn't know that i say it out loud i'm like dagger of the mind fear is the mind killer it's the same thing thing. Wow. Interesting. Anyways, I didn't necessarily think that that relates the dagger of the mind soliloquy

relates here at all. Maybe with Lee meeting his end, something about the rifle compared to the dagger. But it almost reminds me in contrast of like Lady Scottish plays whole out damned spot, but Serafina is actually calling for the blood to obey and stay in question mark or together like realistically she's just trying to hyper accelerate the healing process asking it to claw and hold the flood of the blood back she's like chanting to keep the life at bay but i i just thought it was like such a such a poetic i don't know like the witch is chanting at the beginning even me once a month trying to hold the blood of the blood back shit that too i guess but um yeah it's a really

interesting way as you said to open all of this up and just plunges you into this. And I would argue actually that it kind of differs from I say it, I say the word, I say it, Lady Macbeth's speech in structure in a lot of ways because Lady Macbeth's moments, you know, the out-out-damned-spot thing is

told in prose, right? And I think that's meant to show how she's very much unraveling, less regal as opposed to in the verse that more of the noble characters speak in, whereas Pullman here, you know, deliberately presents this whole spell in poetry. And a lot of Pullman's background in English literature is poetry, and it's what he fell in love with before he fell in love with writing prose. And he's actually edited, I think, quite a few poetry collections. He's really into it, and that's why it makes sense every time. He loves William Blake, so it makes sense every

time you're bringing in a lot of these other connections from poets. And I think because of that, we can see some really interesting things here with the way that Pullman actually writes the spell, because it is poetry, and because of that, we should be analyzing it and reading it differently from prose. And we're going to break that down. First, this spell is written, in terms of poetry, it's written in blank verse rather than rhymed, which means that you don't get a lot of those same like sing-songy, sort of witchy magical sensations that you might't get a lot of those same like sing-songy sort of witchy magical sensations that you might get from to talk about Macbeth again the witch is there who say many of

those lines right the inverse and the lack of rhyme you know gives more of that weight sincerity to the way that the spell is written it's more serious and it's a little sinister but not as much you know there's good intent it's written between like both heptameter and octameter you know going between those seven and eight syllables uh which makes it in my opinion feel a little disjointed it's a little harder to to pin that uh that meter and in moments where seraphina is ordering the blood or calling to it the foot will switch the foot which is about the stress of the syllables, it switches to spondaic, which is two consecutive stressed syllables. Like, usually I think listen would be listen, but here it comes out as listen, or like little knife, you know?

listen uh or like little knife you know there there's more of that stress there with the way that it's all presented especially with the exclamation points thrown in and you know it highlights the passion of those lines in those pleas but for the most part a lot of it is in a tracheic foot which means that within this meter and all of the how it's broken down, you have that means you have something that's stressed, unstressed, right? So it will be like hammered it and tempered it. And you can see how that stress it starts off stressed and unstresses. And then it's not consistent, but a lot of the lines end unstressed, which means it has in poetry, it's a little sexist, but it says that it's got a feminine ending. That's how it's considered when it's left unstressed, which I think is quite interesting

given what we know of the witches in Lyra's world. We're going to find out that there are witches, there are men witches in other worlds, but here it's very much associated with women, femininity, and then you have how the lines are actually written. And here I want us to, if you can pull up the poem, that'd be rad, but if you can't, you know what, go back to it later on, pay attention to some of how the punctuation is used. Towards the beginning of the spell, there's a lot of inconsistency in how the punctuation of the lines end, with some lines ending with punctuation and some not. So when a line of verse doesn't end in

punctuation and continues on to the next line, just spilling over, especially with run-on sentences, we get what's called enjambment, and it can give it a sense of feeling like a lack of self-control. Again, it's spilling over, and I think this is very indicative of what's going on right now with Will's hands and the wounds with the blood continuing to just gush out, flowing out, right? Like the words flowing. And it's interspersed with lines that end in punctuation, which is called end-stopped. It's a line of verse that ends with a strong mark of punctuation signaling, again, an end, such as a period, comma, exclamation point, semicolon, or a question mark. And we see a lot of commas, periods, and exclamation points throughout this spell. But we see the blood flowing over the punctuation in lines such as this, right,

where we get a single question mark and there's actually an indentation so it's some very interesting like visual signaling within this poem of but little knife what have you done unlocked blood gates left them wide little knife your mother calls you from the entrails of the earth from her deepest minds and caverns from her secret iron boom listen and each of those lines that begins with from are actually all within the same sentence. It's running on. It's like those blood gates that we just talked about that are left open. And as Serafina ends this part of the spell with one single line, it breaks that meter, it just ends with listen and the spell changes, right?

It gets broken up with some of these other lines of prose and the language ends up doing so too with the stronger punctuation and exclamation points within the lines in the next part of that spell. Until finally we move to the last part with the ingredients, which is in tetrameter. So four syllables for the most part, shorter lines, it's a lot choppier, less flowing, broken up, and you get the lines and the flow of the spell in the poem stopped within those lines. And you have several imperatives that are delivered as though we are trying to get the blood to do as the way the words are doing and stopping. You just reminded me of the Latin lyrics from the introduction in the His Dark Materials TV show production, the BBC HBO production. There are Latin lyrics, but they translate to, They hear immortal whispers, begin children and read the omens, begin children for time passes quickly by, begin, begin. And it's not exactly similar per se,

but something about like the way that the, it's referencing Virgil's Eclog 4, but there's something the way there, like that Serafina is saying to listen and something about hearing immortal whispers. Something about Virgil is up with this now that you read it to me. You should read me poetry more often.

Why don't you ever read me poetry anymore? I never did. I mean, yes, sometimes. Do I? You're the one who usually reads me poetry. Why don't you read me poetry anymore Chloe what about the turntables

so steam is rising from this potion that's being made you don't make me potions anymore and Serafina sings the ingredients like this is like a musical episode of his dark materials right if they don't do this in the end of the season next season a musical episode of His Dark Materials, right? If they don't do this in the end of the season, next season, a musical episode, I'll be beside myself.

She sings out, oak bark, spider door silk, ground moss, saltweed. They're meant to bind and tighten up the blood wall. Interestingly enough, again, these are all in real life healing things. This is not just roleplay. We're not LARPing. White oak bark is often used for arthritis, diarrhea, colds, fever, cough, bronchitis, stimulating appetite, improving digestion. It's used in some major medicines. Spider silk is three times as absorbent as a synthetic fiber like Kevlar which most bulletproof vests are made of and silks were also used to stop bleeding for wounds in ancient times and used as a delivery

method for antiseptic like vinegars so perfectly fits in here and of course moss filters and retains water it acts as a phytoremediator so it can clean the earth of toxins and purify the air. And saltweed. Saltweed is also known as saltbush, and it's an excellent source of protein, beneficial calcium, minerals, 20% less sodium than table salt, by the way, if you're looking to switch to the saltbush.

But it is a rich source of antioxidants, known for healing properties. So do with that what you may. I just thought that the ingredient breakdown here was smart. It was clever because it's real. Yeah, there's a lot of that woven into here. I also was thinking as we were reading this poem again, the reference to iron there's kind of I think a sort of play on words there

not only is it the iron within the earth that's taken out to create the knife but I'm like ah blood is also iron right yes yes that's it that's the

furthest I got on that part yes that's it. That's the furthest I got. The alloy. Yes, that's okay. Well, that's a thought. That's something. We'll work with it. It's like they're calling to it in two different levels, but maybe that's where they fucked up, you know? Who knows? Anyway.

The witch splits a sapling with her knife. It's not as cool as the knife and dabs some of the liquid into it which closes it up and seals it back together making it whole again and Lyra's sudden gasp alerts Will to the blood sacrifice of rabbit. Pan turns into a rabbit in sympathy and Lyra

must restrain him Will grows dizzy I don't know if it's from the blood loss or the killing of the rabbits I mean mean, he's like killed literal people. Both. Column A, column B. But I draw the line at animal cruelty. Serafina then performs the same action to the rabbit as the sapling. Some of the concoction is poured onto it, and then it seals up and rises again as if nothing had happened.

And then the rabbit just bounds off and is like, these are weird people. I'm going to go. And I do think there's some significance in choosing a rabbit here. As you were saying, there's all this real world stuff associated with bark. And I think, you know, of course, rabbits are a symbol of rebirth in many cultures. They're a symbol of just birth that's true that's also true and birth and birth again i definitely think and we'll talk about it but it it feels significant this chapter in the next chapter feels significant to do together showing seraphina and

lyra and will's kind of side of the journey and then showing lee uh basically dying for the journey right like dying for the cause like showing the cause and showing how the cause is suffering and showing what it takes for this cause to kind of make it to the end of the book and it's just like they pair really well together and it starts with this rabbit here who gets life and then it goes to our rabbit who gets death so anyways it's going great i'm doing great feeling great this means by the way the fact that this rabbit like heals miraculously that this medicine is going to work for will that is what they were testing so if it's good enough for a rabbit it's good enough for will say. And the steaming mixture is dabbed into his wounds.

Once soaked, herbs are tied tightly to it and he sleeps through the night for once. He and Lyra sleep huddled next to each other and the witch's pile leaves on them. And it's really cute. Kind of like Lyra when she was at Eofir's palace, right? Or Yorick's palace, I should say. Adapting to her environment with snow, pulling the snow over her and waking up with her eyeballs frozen.

But now it's moist leaves from the ground. Warm. Yeah. My favorite. Sleeping under snow and moist leaves. Crunchy, moist leaves. Gotta love them. Ugh. Jesus. Seraphina dresses Will's wounds in the morning and then gives him no sign of its progress

no updates and i'm like this is just the worst doctor's visit ever like what are we fucking paying her for we're not paying her anything she's here and risking her life anyway they eat and then reveal that the witches will support the mission to get will to his father and they quietly ready to leave the alethiometer sends them in the direction of distant mountains by an empty blue sea. It's quite far and the journey's quiet, full of wildlife like squirrels and snakes. Lyra and Pan do quite a bit of gossiping about Will while he conserves his energy. Pan even suggests they cheat and use the alethiometer to ask about him but lyra says no that's greedy and nosy and they shouldn't pan says lyra is usually the greedy one like back in

the retiring room in the very first book they discuss how lyra's nosiness led them to this point in their journey and that she's changing and when she changes pan won't he hopes that he'll be a flea and she laughs but wants to know if he actually knows what he wants to be. He turns into a pig and then a squirrel, saying he doesn't know and he doesn't want to know yet. A flea is kind of hilarious. It would be so annoying. I kind of love it. They are changing, though, Pan and Lyra.

They are changing, though, Pan and Lyra. And a few episodes ago, I think in a DUS discussion, we talked about this idea of a movable garden, meaning all the different ways that the Garden of Eden manifests in Lyra's storyline. And, you know, obviously, Lyra's world was one of those, the gardens, and Oxford was one of those gardens. And Chittagaze at first is another one, right? It's a city of children where everything was just provided for them, or very much Providence, right? It was another Garden of Eden, and then there she met Will. And she had tasted the forbidden fruit of knowledge in the alethiometer and then sought more forbidden knowledge by meeting up with Mary Malone and was like, I'm going to find everything out. And then she was punished by losing the alethiometer at first. And then this leads to them, you know,

running into the snake, right? Charles Latrim, who fucks everything up and like the serpent in the garden. And this leads to them eventually getting the subtle knife. And, you know, it's important they're supposed to get the subtle knife, right yes of course and but all of this eventually kind of leads to them being then thrown out of the garden of eden as they must for their journey but also because pretty much everyone in the city now fucking hates them and i mean understandably so and as lyra learns that you, the children are not all innocence and good, a bit of her own innocence is once more lost as she starts changing. And then Will and Lyra must once more venture out into the wilderness. Yeah, I think it's really important that every step of this journey, as we keep going forward, it's not roger was the only sacrifice of the story you

know like as lyra moves forward there are pains and sacrifices that happen and i mean blood for blood right tulio tulio yeah both of us tulio wow get out of my brain they speculate on who will's father might be and that he must be someone important like asriel oh if only you knew uh but pan says i don't know lyra he might not be asriel used roger even though he wasn't important which i get it now everybody's special um yeah lyra stamps her foot saying hotly that Will is important. The witches think so, too. And finding his dad has to be important.

And then she turns on Pan and she's like, and you must think so, too, mister, because you licked Will without my permission. And Pan is like, it's because Will needed a demon and he didn't have one. And if you're so clever, you would have known that, Lyra. And then, of course, Ly course lyra admits well she did kind of know that they stop gossiping though because they catch up with will who is sitting on a rock pan becomes a fly catcher among the branches and lyra and will talk about the kids from chittagaze will thinks they'll go back to drifting about too frightened of the witches and lyra wonders if they'll chase after the knife, but Will says he won't let them.

Lyra's all like, I never trusted Angelica, and Will's like, yeah, you did. And she's like, yeah, I did, really. Kids, man. Kids. Especially Lyra.

Yeah. She's the worst. Yeah, I did. You're right. it takes me back to one of my favorite movies unfortunately The Garden State and there's a line in it where she's like I haven't even lied in like two days and the guy's like are you lying right now and she's like yes

it's Lyra, it's extreme Lyra I don't even remember a lot of that movie I know people were like with that movie, though, in high school. It's one of the best soundtracks, and it's one of the best movies. And I'll be taking no further questions. That's the only thing I remember from that movie, the soundtrack. And the ending. Which also, mostly I remember because of Imogen Heep.

Anyways, they both thought Chittagaze was like heaven at first but turns out it was actually full of specters lyra reflects on never trusting kids again and she thought kids couldn't be cruel like that and says she'd never seen kids like them and will's like well i have especially when his mother was having a harder time he'd help her when she wasn't able to find the truth of things, and she would then start counting things when she was afraid, or start touching things in a pattern. Except there was a time that Will was at school, and he couldn't help her, and she went out without him,

she hadn't put much clothing on, and she didn't realize it, and some boys from his school found her and started tormenting her, and as Will is retelling all this, he gets very upset and feels tears in his eyes and his face is hot but he continues he says they were tormenting her like the cat and shittagatse they wanted to hurt her or kill her because she was different and they hated her he ended up fighting the leader of those boys at school the next day breaking an arm and some teeth and stopping before he went too far for

fear of them investigating his mom's condition. He pretended to be sorry and said nothing, keeping her safe, and the boys knew that if they did anything else to her, he'd kill them, not just hurt them. Poor Will. Lyra softly asks him about his mom, and about Tulio, when the Spectres got him, and Will confirms he thinks the specters came from their world. She was afraid of things I couldn't see, and she had to do things that looked crazy. You couldn't see the point of them, but obviously she could. And then later, maybe we do have the specters in my world, only we can't see them, and we haven't got a name for them, but they're there and they keep trying to attack my mother.

So that's why I was glad yesterday when the alethiometer said she was all right. I think this is, you had touched on this in previous episodes, and I think this is something that Pullman's interested in. But as we now know from his Twitter Q&A, he's also very open about saying, like, if someone's like, what's up with this? He's like, I don't know. I like to explore that. He's like, I don't know what I'm doing here, but I think it's cool. And I think this is one of those, you know? Yeah.

Yeah. No, I don't think I don't know that this is going to make it to the last book. Yeah. But it's... Like, as far as a big plot of, like, specters and stuff, like, we won't get any answers on it. It's something, yeah,

it's definitely one of those things where he's, like, definitely interested in it. It's all a metaphor, Eliana. Mm. Life's a metaphor. That's actually literally something, like,

John Perry says in the next chapter, too. Like, life's a metaphor, least scores be man let's just yeah john perry john smoke it up perry it's striking how when will and lara though converge i feel like they've come with two kind of different lessons from their trauma because of the way that it happened right like will is in a position where he has to protect his mother and distrust everyone around him but

one of the first ways that he was disillusioned was by distrusting other children and learning of their cruelty and yet he still holds his parents in fairly high esteem in a way like he might not be able to depend on his mother, but there's definitely an element of comfort and trust and love that he associates with her. And he even extends this to his father. We see that he feels very close to his father as he's reading these letters and not a sense of bitterness. But for Lyra, her first big lessons in life were distrusting adults especially her parents and I

feel like that's pretty self-explanatory because we all read the first book yeah they suck they suck bad and it's interesting you say that because like obviously us doing this podcast is an exploration of their relationship in long form right like we're going to explore their effect on each other how they grow from being with each other and the time they spend with each other but when you isolate it like this will trusted lyra who was like a wild tartan wearing like monster when he met her right like she like just had like wild hair and she came out of the freaking shadows all like snarling at him attacked him yeah when she attacked him like so of course will has trust issues and kids especially so the fact that he and lyra have grown this close to

each other and he is now like when lyra throws her little hissy fit tantrums she throws he's just like yeah okay lyra sure and he like lets her tire herself out and then like things are normal and they talk it out later like they're doing really good yeah they're really good and she's not even throwing those tantrums as much anymore Eliana that's true

that's true and she's changing as she told Pan and Pan's like I'm gonna become a flea take that that's big me vibes so She's changing, as she told Pan. And Pan's like, I'm going to become a flea. Take that. That's big me vibes. So back in the story, Lyra asks when he knew he had to look for his dad. And he tells her a long time ago, he'd pretend he was a prisoner and Will would rescue him. Or he was stuck on a desert island and Will would bring him home. And he'd know what to do all about the problems Will was facing.

Will would have friends. His mom would get better. He explains to Lyra how he could never have friends because he had to hide his parents' secrets. He had his cat and he hopes someone is taking care of that cat and honestly, me too. I'm worried about that cat. I'm not, I'm just kidding.

Moxie's fine. Yeah, she's like not i'm just kidding moxie's fine yeah she's like moxie doesn't need no man finally i hated those humans i mean i don't think moxie hated her humans but cats don't need us no they really don't well they kind of do though i don't know i've cats are idiots lyra asks who will killed but will doesn't actually know if you recall these people had been pestering his mother about his dad they seemed different than normal cops and they wanted the letters his father sent he tells lyra that he stowed his mom at the neighbor's house went back for the letters and the men broke back in. Moxie tripped one of them up, and Will ran away. Yeah, so between this and, like, in a second where

Will recounts, you know, finding the window, etc., I'm just going to be very honest with all of you about my opinion, and I just think that these paragraphs, there's a lot of paragraphs here where Will just gives us a summary

of the first few chapters of this book. And I just think it was actually kind of unnecessary. On a structural standpoint, it was unnecessary for him to literally tell us everything that we had just read. if this had been like the second the not second book but the sequel book to this right and we're reading it because maybe the author's assuming maybe you haven't reread these other books this is a reminder about will but like that's literally his story yeah i'm like that's that's the whole story we're introduced to will with yes how could you forget it i know i'm like we we were all there it's a moment where will we i think pullman should have just been like and will told lyra all that happened and

then we put in some of the emoticons that are necessary later and for what it's worth like i think it's to remind you of the family dynamic going on and his dad being gone for what happens in the last chapter how could we forget his dad being gone for what happens in the last chapter but how could we forget his dad was gone i know i know because literally of what happens in the next chapter and the last chapter in the chapter before the last yeah i know the whole book the whole entire book where we have a will perry-a-thon i know yeah but for what it's worth that but at the same time like i summarized it in five sentences, so why couldn't he? I agree.

Like, I think that the part where he talks about, you know, longing for his dad, his memories, that's there, that's important, that's necessary. Everything that's like, hey guys, here's what happened on last episode. Here's what you missed in His Dark Materials, but you didn't miss. Anyways, needed to get that off my chest good for you he said will says that he found the window soon which again we all know thanks to the other cat

and if neither cat had helped him he wouldn't be here we have this line in the outline I'm gonna tell you all cats rule Chloe's gonna tell you she. Because... Cats rule. Chloe's gonna tell you she wrote it. This is our podcast. We can do whatever we want.

I haven't reminded people about that in a while. Well, I think you just did with your opinions, Eliana. Loud and proud. Yeah. Yes. So, Will is super grateful about that cat. Both cats. And Lyra's like, I can relate because me and Pan were just talking about

if only I hadn't gone into the retiring room. And they sit quietly on the rock, both of them wondering how chance brought them together. Soulmates. Yeah. But I like how in this moment, Lyra's like, and Pan are like, well, then I guess Lord Azrael would have died. They aren't at all like,

that's my dad! My dad would've died! They're just like, yeah, then maybe in another world, Roger would be alive. I'm like, aw. Hmm. Another world. Wil regains the strength to go on, so they resume their journey in the quiet

forest, the trees growing thinner, and land rockier as they go. The alethiometer confirms their direction for them, and they come across a village, untouched by specters by noon. Children play in a stream, goats pasture in the hills, lemon trees cast shade around the ground. But the bloody, fierce-eyed boy and the tattered, clothinged girl scare the kids off to their mothers and also they have a fancy dog. They've just got this like fancy greyhound and I just am like would they be less creepy? Would the other children be less

afraid of them if they didn't have such a fancy dog? I appreciate that like I did not comment on the dog at all or care about the dog. You comment on cats. I comment on the dog at all or care about the dog you comment on cats i comment on dogs we are the song of ice and fire twee and law oh my god lyra and will are able to trade some gold for bread fruit and cheese from this village even a new shirt for will with further bartering

they refresh themselves and they move on to a harsher drier land the sun pounding down on them they scramble down a slope that goes into a valley shoving their way through rhododendrons and bees into a wild meadow bordering a stream it's evening now and cornflowers gentians and sankathwal are amidst the knee-high grass and this scene kind of reads to me like that scene from the beginning of the book that we get but opposite of seraphina and the witches who learn of the specters uh when they see those the man and the woman that are guiding the kids and the weird setup they kind of have going this is kind of like this weird untouched space of war that they just came across and it's the exact opposite of the beginning of the book it's something that feels almost hopeful for them right like for the village not for them god their lives

suck but right now their life just really sucks they have a lot going on you know they're busy for the next few months uh but this village is just like this untouched space of war and the complete opposite of everything we've seen this whole book and it's a weird refreshing space it reminds me of uh actually of a space we'll see in the amber spyglass but i'm not going to talk about that today we'll move on for now yeah for now will's drinking from a stream lying down his hand sobbing bleeding once more seraphina examines it putting herbs in the wound but she looks troubled will doesn't ask her it's plain enough the potion didn't work i was doing some light biblical reading as one does for this podcast there's this line well a couple lines from mark 9 43 to 47 that it

just felt i don't know i don't know i'm gonna throw it out there let me know what you think you know let me know if your hand causes you to stumble cut it off it is better for you to enter life crippled than having your two hands to go into hell into the unquenchable fire where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched. If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame than having your two feet to be cast into hell. Where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched. If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out. It's better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than having two eyes to be cast into hell. So that's from Mark 9, 43 to 47 again i just felt like

with everything we're talking about with rebirth uh some of the symbolism with the rabbit for example or with that seed pot above rehealing and his hand kind of being this magnificent symbolic metaphorical fist right now in our lives right like everything in this chapter seems to revolve around this gushing oozing hand i just thought that was interesting it was an interesting passage that made me think about will uh going through this hard traveled road especially with some of the virgil influences right going on of these rings of hell just to get to the good stuff yeah and all of this i think it's an interesting quote. It makes me think of some other stuff,

also in the amber spyglass, thinking about the meaning of this. But yeah, yeah, there's definitely some similar ideas and vibes going on. Later when everyone's asleep, Will asks, now cat form Pan, he feels comfortable, you know, with cat form things if he's going to die Pan says Lyra and the witches won't let him die, and Will says

that he's frightened, and Pan is surprised because he's like, Lyra doesn't think you're frightened Will decides you know, he'll try to seem brave then I think Lyra's braver than me I think she's the best friend I ever had oh I'm so

soft this is like when my cat shows me their soft cute belly I love them so much that's what Pan's doing showing his soft belly but also kind of being like well now everyone fucking knows that will is afraid and right dude like first of all keep it down sound travels at camp second of all

you told pan pan's a gossip as we know third of all they're the same person yeah like pan tells him that lyra thinks that about him too and, and while Will's falling asleep, Lyra, it turns out, this whole time has been wide awake, her eyes are open in the dark, and her heart is beating hard, and I'm just like, damn, Pan is out here giving out your secrets! Yeah, but, like, I don't know, it's like when you're trying to hook a friend up. You know what I mean? You know this idiot is in love with this idiot. And you're like, oh, you two are so stupid. Just love each other. And you're just like the little nudges, you know? Yeah, that's true. I mean, Pan's also in love with Will, is what I'm saying.

That's true. So, like, it's not just, I mean, this goes both ways for us to say Pan's Lyra, Lyra's Pan. Pan wants what Lyra wants wants is all I'm saying. The big W. But I think Will doesn't get it still. And obviously I understand why he wouldn't. But I think he still doesn't quite get how demons work. He's just like talking to Pan like, yeah, Pan.

He's just a guy they met on the road. He's just a cool animal shapeshifty thing that talks that I can talk to. Our third roommate. I'm like, no, Will's not the third roommate. Will. Do you think Will ever wakes up through any of these nights and is just like, is this a really bad ayahuasca trip? Like, what's, what's, is this like, did I get dosed? What is happening?

And why won't this animal stop talking i would think that and i'm like damn it's interesting that will just like went along with the spell but i'm like if everything after everything that's happened to him he'd be like yeah let's do it let's try what's the fucking point otherwise may as well you know like otherwise he's just gonna bleed out yeah and he's very serious about going into he's like all right let's do this. He's like, all I have to do is go find my dad who may or may not be trapped in the spirit plane and in a whole nother world and I'll never find him. So that's literally all I have going on for myself right now, you guys.

Yeah, I'm going to just talk to the cat therapist about my feelings. That's him. So Will wakes up after all of this he wakes up to a fire and Lyra is trying to toast bread on a stick I appreciate the language in the scene because here it's like yeah the other food's successfully

cooking you know the witches are doing it but it explicitly tells us that Lyra is trying trying to toast bread on a stick. And I'm like, Lyra, you're changing, but there are some things that have not changed about you. And I don't know, I'm just imagining her, like, taking a stick and putting it through a whole loaf of bread. Like, that's what's worse. I know she wouldn't, they wouldn't let her, but then, like, I'm seeing a smaller chunk of bread and it just falls through it.

I mean, that's clearly what she's trying to do. And I'm like, I mean, is that the best way to do it? Maybe it is the best way, right? To do this here with what they have. But I'm also just like, is it? I don't know.

Azula can do this with her eyes closed. She just doesn't know how to, like, food works. It's so... Lyra. Well, there is real food, right? There's birds that are roasting on the spit. Serafina brings Will some bitter-tasting leaves to eat that taste almost like sage, and he feels more awake, less cold, but it's not really the most pleasant thing

the birds are good though they're seasoned with lemon another witch brings some gathered berries for dinner and then the dinner gossip is an air balloon in the sky which lyra thinks must be mr scoresby i think that this is such an interesting way to put these two chapters because again the next chapter chapter 14 alamo gulch seems to run concurrent to this we're seeing lee's balloon right now the time streams are parallel even the storm they see the storm coming and then we flip the page we get to the next chapter and we get the real storm yeah there's a lot of parallels between the two like you said storm coming in in the magic things that are going on. Lots of magics going on.

I do, as I think about this, though, I'm just like, damn. Everybody here just really got Will's hopes up about riding in an air balloon. I'd be pretty upset, yeah. Yeah, only to find, you know, that it's not happening. And I'm just going to say, I'd be pretty deflated if someone got my hopes up. You are fired. You are fired. You are literally fired.

I haven't been fired in a while. Are you guys happy? I haven't fired her in so long and she is fired. Well, we got soft. So. I'm just going to float past that one. Oh, hired. Yeah, I actually recently rewatched some of season one of his dark materials i'm like slowly making

my way back to the end of the season i think i'm on seven right now uh the right before you know episode eight is the last one of season one and i believe roger just gave lee scores be a bunch of flack about his balloon kind of like making fun of it and it's so cute because he's just like it's not that cool it's not that cool man it's pretty cool he's like you're a grown ass man with a balloon man up Lee I'm like yeah he is

it's awesome it's like how I just really want a trampoline or like a room that's a ball pit or a room that's made of cushions I watched this episode of uh community that's something that I put a room that's made of cushions i watched this episode of a community that's something that i put on in the we just watched the trampoline episode literally two days ago the trampoline one yeah yep yep uh that was one of our background shows right now yeah

it's it's easy i'm like i don't really have to pay attention it's there makes noise yeah i don't know how i actually feel about it. We'll talk. They say that they saw two men within the balloon, but it was too far away. A storm was behind the balloon, coming strong. Lyra is optimistic that it must be Mr. Scoresby, and is sad that she was never able to say goodbye

to him last time. Shut the fuck up. You're about to get sadder, bitch. There's a witch listening, though. Jutta Kamainen with a red-breasted robin on her shoulder. This is the witch

who, of course, had loved the man Stanislaus Grumman. And she has an idea of who the second man on this balloon is. I am dying because, like, it just all sounds like a covert spy thing. Stannis Laus Grumman, the man I loved. You know what I mean?

The spy who... Yeah, the spy who loved me. The spy who shagged me. Okay, Austin Powers. Well, we haven't done an animal corner in a minute. I want to do an animal corner about the red-breasted robin. And Eliana, I don't know if you remember

a website called Anti-Flow that we've talked about in the past. I believe this was during, what, our Valerian discussion that we talked about this website. They have a bunch of symbolism. Yes, we talked about the seah have a bunch of symbolism yes we talked about the seahorse from anti-flow there's symbolism there but i actually somehow came upon their

website again and they do have decent symbolism somehow came upon their website again there's a story yeah i don't have it bookmarked i promise there is kind of a mini fable story here about a robin and jesus i'm gonna tell you this story eliana there's a robin who rested on jesus's shoulder while he was on the cross in order to relieve his suffering the robin sang him a song after jesus died blood from his crown stained the bird's chest robins have been associated with christ's suffering and red-breasted and are red-breasted ever since because of jesus's blood it stains centuries so while divine sacrifice and rebirth are also a really great theme again this whole entire episode is just going to be rebirth themes it seems i think there's definitely something

about martyrdom in that symbolism of Judah's demon, right? Like that bird stayed there, sang the song for Jesus to, you know, for his suffering to be done and stayed there until Jesus was dead. And the blood stained his chest because of that. So I don't know.

It feels like something about martyrdom. I feel like that's something with Judah coming up for her big role her big scene is her name Judah cause like Judas hmm I never fucking considered that but I

think that makes sense I don't know the way that you said Judah in that moment I was like whoa or Judea I don't know judea yeah that's that is definitely an interesting thought huh it makes sense with the j name right because she is kind of the betrayer for all of us yeah so there might be a betrayer not not to not to spoil the last chapter i guess that'll happen but um there might also be something there that I just don't know.

You know, our friend Lo always has insights on names from the North. I'm gonna say the North. But, you know, this drama that's going on within Judah's head is unnoticed by anyone but us, the readers, for Seraphina. Here's a demon cry out before she can be like, what's going on in that pretty little head of yours, Judah? Because no one cares about you anymore, Judah, because Ruda, Scotty, is incoming. Judah and Ruda and Suda and uh I'm sorry god. So a cliff ghast is following Ruta

down and the witches are unable to shoot without hurting her. Will, big hero, comes forward, saves them with his knife, using Acehater to slash at the cliff ghast. A few more fall dead and the rest of the ghasts flee i have a hot take that the cliff ghasts are probably in fact adorable kind of like gremlins

but evil yeah old and wrinkly and small yeah yeah and creepy i feel like they'd be adorable there are some really like gross creatures in this series when we get to the amber spyglass y'all it's over you're gonna love it but there's some really weird critters in this series they're like weird like 90s like creepy critters but the kind that are really endearing you know cult cult following behind them that's what i think if you watched anamorphs if you watched wishbone you're gonna be on board i'm just kidding i don't know why wishbone comes to mind i'm gonna link this it's uh i think it's archived now jeff our friend jeff from not a cast sent me i think he's the one who sent it to me um this thing that was like the pitch for wishbone on the toast and you need to live it need to live it okay so seraphina and her witches land with ruda who

calls the creatures abominations unlike eliana's affectionate feelings toward them she remarks the cliff guests are breeding like flies and asks who these children are she presumes automatically that the girl is Lyra. Lyra is thrilled by her boldness. Will cleans his knife in the earth. Ruta tells Serafina what she's learned. The old things and ways are dying. Hungry, the witch eats like an animal. The other witches clear the dead cliff ghasts and rebuild the fire, reassigning the watch for the night. Yeah. Ruta Scotty just comes in out of nowhere and has big I'm baby energy, feed me. And like

eats everything. Ruta then exclaims the glory of Lord Asriel's great fortress and all the goods he has gathered such as gunpowder, food, and armor

she says that he seems to have been commanding this supply since even before the witches were born and the time runs faster or slower according to his will all sorts of warriors are attending him like birds, lizards, and apes okay this is not impressive not impressed by fucking bird warriors,

Ruta. Right. And some outlandish creatures with no names. Okay, I know, but I just wanted to tell Ruta this is not impressive. Right, and so Asriel's doing this, sure,

but this really stuck out to me, this read, because this is technically my reread, I guess, my first reread of this. He seems to have been commanding the supply since before even the witches were born. So he's no better than the guild from Shidigase for doing so right now. he's no better than the guild from shidigase for doing so right now he's time traveling and world traveling to steal resources to fight the authority and he's not even redistributing these resources you know what i mean like it's not like he's going to steal from the rich and give to the poor he's stealing from the rich to give to the rich that was stolen from and it's sad that they're not rich anymore and we've learned about it a little bit we haven't had quite as much but it's sad that they're not rich anymore. And we've learned about it a little bit. We haven't had quite as much, but it's quite obviously affecting the fabric of reality,

of the existence they live in. This isn't just global warming. This is like galactical warming. You know what I mean? It's like that Backstreet Boys song. How your love's affecting all reality. Yup. And I'm not arguing.

I'm not arguing that, like, the oppression being committed by the Magisterium and the authority is right. It's absolutely wrong. Wrong enough that it's pushing these people to their limit to make creatures from all over these worlds, like the aforementioned creatures that are unimpressive to Eliana. They want to be a part of this big war. Like, yes, they are at the limit. Like, these people can no longer take this oppressiveness

coming down on them from the authority, but that's kind of the problem with these big world, big galaxy politics, right? The oppressed are exploitable at every level. All they have is the power to choose who to follow. And Asriel has now stolen power for himself. He's touting the people's message. But as we know, his motives aren't 100% pure. Yeah, I think a lot of this is really spot on, especially I'm just unnerved with the way that Ruta speaks about it. Like, she sounds very much like a lot of the brainwashed

in the magisterium right the zealots but yeah as opposed to setting up the magisterium as her frame of morality and reference it feels like she's done that with lord asriel yes like come hear the good word my sister's about lord asriel in his glory the highest glory of lord asriel it's like like his lizards she's speaking about him like he's a god and that's what he's setting himself up as like he's setting himself up to take down the authority and put himself in charge question mark like that like what are you trying to do, Asriel? Yeah, and I understand that that's probably, you know, not what's going on. It is and it isn't, right? I mean, he's inspired by Satan in Paradise Lost.

But there's a lot of that sort of charisma behind it that's just like, or the spell that he seems to have cast over Ruta. I mean, it's not actually a spell, right? But it feels the same way, that same religious drive that she's allegedly condemning. Yeah, and I mean, about to say something probably controversial, but like, unfortunately true, that, I mean, it's our podcast, I can say what I want. Asriel is an arrogant asshole with a huge penis

that is all I can tell you guys from what I've learned from this book Ruta and Asriel fucked I mean that's literally why she comes back grinning ear to ear saying they're gonna kill God like that's all I can say that's all it could be because i just don't get it like he's charismatic and he's got to have great junk i don't know what's going on with asriel but magic they have magic the witches have magic dude what's wrong with this yeah asriel sucks i i think it's like she has a point in a lot of what she's going to say and we'll get into that in a second but it's the way that it's framed and how she's so blinded to everything and frames everything within the context of Asriel that makes it feel weird. And maybe that wasn't the intent in how all this was delivered, right? Maybe we were supposed to see Ruta, and this is another thing that I've been thinking, as a sort of prophet, right? A prophet of Asriel. as a sort of prophet right a prophet of asriel or his disciple apostle because she is going out there like you said she's preaching the good word she's giving the gospel of asriel and trying to

convert people to their cause but the way that she just centers him in everything even when she's like but what about this part what if i had his babies and i'm'm like, yo. Yeah, and that's where it's a lot for me. It's like, is this Pullman not aware? Because overall I get the feeling I'm supposed to like Ruta Scotti, but I also, after this chapter, feel like I'm not. I don't like her. I feel like I'm supposed to like her, but I personally do not like her. That's how I feel.

Like, I feel like Pullman wants me to like Ruta Scotti, but maybe he doesn't. I don't know what I feel. I don't know. Serafina needs to refocus our conversation and their own is what I'm saying. So she does so. She refocuses the conversation on finding Asriel which is what ruda did ruda made herself invisible and ruda gets sidetracked during this so it's perfect because she's like a bubble gummy baby girl like you said and she just gets sidetracked all the time but she made her way

to his bed where he was sleeping and then the line is every witch there knew what had happened next and neither will nor lyra dreamed of it they fucked anyways i love how blatantly pullman mentions it like it's definitely one of those snuck in their lines right like kids wouldn't notice that's what that means but like that is the funniest shit like no one says it because everyone knows it is what pullman just said yeah but also i would argue that this is not Ruta Scotti getting sidetracked. That's why she went there. This was the goal. No, no, no.

The stuff before was the sidetrack. Like, she's getting sidetracked throughout all of this in her story. Like, she keeps, like, embellishing her story in certain ways. I was talking about that before. I thought you meant that the fucking was the sidetrack. Because that's literally what Serafina does because she gets sidetracked. I was like, no, the fucking was the sidetrack. Because that's literally what Seraphina does because she gets sidetracked. I was like, no, the fucking was Ruta's goal. Yeah.

It's a fun lie that I didn't think about how it would be read by children, but you're totally right. When Ruta asked why Asriel was gathering the forces, he invited them to join him. He plans to rebel against the authority because it is right and just. Like his dick.

Apparently it is. Points to heaven. She decided alongside his dick that the authority was cruel, like what they had done to children and the mutilations and cruelties they dealt, even how they capture witches in some worlds and

burn them. Meanwhile, didn't Asriel literally kill a kid to open all of this shit up everyone's special waves hands frantically i do wonder does anyone know that asriel did that except for lyra i mean marissa coulter does yeah would it change ruda's opinion if she knew? Like, I think her pussy would still be wet. Oh, yeah. For sure.

I don't think it would change. I think Marissa... Wet. Yeah. Mrs. Coulter doesn't care. She's like, whatever. One kid? Yeah.

Ruta's like, yeah, what's one? You know, like, I don't know. I mean, well, and there's definitely a line drawn as we're about to get into that. Seraphine is like, look, I have to help the savior, right? Like this special child and her other special child. But you go fight God, I guess. Sis, have fun. You know?

Yeah. She's all like, Asriel, open her eyes and the authority means to destroy the joys and truths of life. And then Ruta Scottotty's like but back to my life she longed to throw the witches to the cause right there and then but knew that she must gain her sister's approval before she pledges all of them so she left but then stumbled upon the nest of the oldest of cliff gas during this really extended walk of shame he was blind and he was being brought food from his family who asked his great memory and wisdom just imagine

like they're hilarious and adorable look at they're like hilarious animatronic puppets right the cliff gas told them the greatest war was coming they would have many carrion feasts astriel could win with his passion and huge army the cliff ghast had said to them but he does not have acehater without it his forces would go down in defeat and they feast

they would feast on them for years you know now that we read this the next chapter has a great focus on Jopari John Perry, Jopari, Stanislaus Grumman, and memory and wisdom, and how this trip that he and Lee are taking is for wisdom, he says. And honestly, here you have this cliff-gassed old and blind,

being brought food, being asked for his wisdom, and it's kind of like a Nega Joe Parry, right? Because Joe Parry is seeking the person who has Ace of Hater. That's true. Yeah. So I just feel like it's so cute what a little microcosm of this cute little blind old cliff

ghast. Wow. He's a little shaman. Little shaman cliff ghast. He is. He is. And as you said, with the memory and wisdom that's being passed on and what's going to happen next. Yeah, because Bruda explains it was very hard to hear this. And in all of her focusing, her invisibility breaks. And she came here to the witches where she is now.

So that's her catch up. That's Bruda Scotty's catch up. And she then plans to call a great council right then right there and seraphina again is like totally understand but my clan has to protect will and lyra scouts on her we cross some fingers uh and ruda's like fine i will fly back to the other clans at once and gather them will in pain once more is lying back and lyra is sleepily listening to the witches ruda has a small aside with seraphina where she exclaims that asriel's the greatest commander with his dick but she has no clue who asa hater is seraphina's like it might not be a hymn i know you're very preoccupied

with males right now ruda scotty but that word actually sounds like it means god destroyer ruda immediately takes that to mean oh so it's the witches we have to join asriel she's just looking for signs right now this is quite the confirmation bias she has here so strong asriel breathe better take my clothes off she cries out suddenly and she's like, why does the authority do it, sister? Why are they sacrificing children to their cruel god? And Seraphina's like, they're afraid of dust, whatever it actually is, but they're afraid

of it. And that's that, interestingly enough. Yeah, the conversation moves to the boy again, who does, like, who dis? Seraphina tells her what she knows of Will Perry and that they serve Lyra, and the instrument keeps telling her that this is the task at hand. Seraphina says she failed to heal the boy's hand though, and that the herbs here may not be good for holding a spell.

They have no blood moss in this hot region. He's strange, said Ruto Scotty. He's the same kind as Lord Asriel. Have you looked into his eyes? To tell the truth, said Seruta Scotty. He's the same kind as Lord Asriel. Have you looked into his eyes? To tell the truth, said Seraphina Peckle, I haven't dared. The two queens sat quietly by the stream. Time went past, stars set, and other stars rose. A little cry came from the sleepers, but it was only Lyra dreaming. The witches heard the rumbling of a storm,

and they saw the lightning play over the sea and the foothills, but it was a long way off. This line is great. Time went past, stars set, and other stars rose. A little cry came from the sleepers but it was only Lyra dreaming. I imagine that Lyra is sleeping, and this is

something that's weird. So in this chapter, Lyra is sleeping and this is something that's weird so in this chapter Lyra and Will start to sleep right and they're interrupted several times throughout their sleep and then Lee has the same thing Lee tries to sleep in the next chapter but his sleep is interrupted at several intervals waking up between dreams so at the same time lyra is half awake half sleeping on and off just like lee is yeah there's big an american tale somewhere out there vibes oh my god going on between lyra and lee no there is you know it's crazy because it's like you think they were in different worlds but they're probably pretty much just, like, across the way from each other. They are. Except Lee does enter a different

world at the last second. Underneath the pale moon sky. Oh my god. Somewhere out there. If love can see us through. Later, Ruta asks about Lyra's importance, and Serafina confirms Lyra is supposed to end all destiny.

She tells her of the witch that mrs coulter tortured and how she almost gave it away in terms of lyra's super cool secret name but janbe aka came to her in time then seraphina's seraphina wonders if lyra is ace a hater actually bruda begins telling seraphina that had asriel knocked her up lyra would have been a witch a queen of queens but seraphina suddenly hushes her because something slipped past their guard and they see an unusual light at the camp rudis ability to center this on her and asriel having a child i'm just just... We've already been kind of shitting on her. You know the bird account?

The pro-bird rights account? On Twitter? What? No. There's a, like, pro-bird activist account on Twitter and it's this bird account where it just, like, misspells things badly and always, like, tweets about itself and it's always like,

I don't understand burp get worm what if worm get but you know like stupid crap uh but there's this one tweet that i think about constantly and it's like i am uncomfortable when things are not about me and that's ruta scotty yes and i don't know i'm just i know we've already been talking about it, but is she just the cringiest character in this whole story? Yeah. I mean, up there. Eliana, I'm telling you, it's a witch thing. It might be. I mean, Serafina's fine. I don't know.

And I'm hoping that this is something that the show is able to do and execute better, right? I've been really impressed with the way they fleshed out Lord Boreal, so I'm like, maybe they can do it here with the witches. I think they're gonna make it better. I do think

they'll make it better. They did a great job of expanding on the Gyptians, for example, and on the Boreal stuff. I mean, they'll do something great to make me like the witches, hopefully. They also did good work yeah with a lot of other things that they've expanded and as you said i think we're supposed to like ruda scotty but all i can think of is just girl i agree though i do agree she's uh she's something and I don't know if we're supposed

to like her or not but I don't love her I tolerate her she's written with Asriel as her only motivation you know that's my problem and the witches I mean let's look at Judah yeah Judah and Ruta both of them exist for Asriel and John Perry. They don't exist for any purpose besides having another female witch in the Seraphina plot to worldbuild the witches. Yeah.

And even then it's weak because they literally serve as ties to John Perry and to Asriel. They are weak characters. At least in, I guess, the birds. Don't get me started on Lyra's Oxford.

I mean, at least there she's written for Lyra, kind of. Kind of, yeah. So, that's a little different. It's like how I've been watching Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. and every day I'm like, who's going to die? How many people must die so that an agent of S.H.I.E.L.D. may develop

in terms of their character today? I'm like that person hasn't had someone die for them yet. Someone's gotta die for them. Anyway. They run back arrows knocked and find everyone asleep.

But angels gazing down at them surrounding will and lyra there's at least a dozen seraphina describes the angels as beautiful pilgrims of rarefied light coming to look at something important yeah in fact we have to do the full line eliana because it is it is pretty it's it's just nice um these beautiful pilgrims of rarefied light standing around the girl with the dirty face and the tartan skirt and the boy with the wounded hand who was frowning in his sleep. I mean, this is straight up some staring at baby Jesus crap. You know what I mean? Yeah, this is manger shit. Yeah, away in a manger?

What child is this? yeah this is manger shit yeah away in a manger like what child is this this is I'm about to baby boy Lyra my baby whatever I'm excited about this I especially like the line you get it girl

I especially like the line where it calls out that the witches didn't have a word for this. This is a pilgrimage, a religious pilgrimage. So a journey taken for religious motive. Some pilgrims wander with no fixed destination. Some seek a specific place sanctified by divinity or holy personage, some association. It was vital for Christian religions in in origins you know like the angels

coming down to tell the shepherds of the savior keep going yes exactly it's also one of the pillars of islam actually uh the hajj the hajj is an annual islamic pilgrimage to mecca in saudi arabia and it's five to six days depending depending on the lunar Islamic calendar and mandatory for Muslims. And it must be carried out at least once in their lifetime by adults who are able financially and physically of doing that. And this is throughout a lot of religions. It's not just that. I mean,

there's the Sukkot over in Judaism, ancient times before Jerusalem's temple was destroyed, pilgrimages to Jerusalem to bring harvest offerings. It's a thing in religion, I guess. Everywhere. All of them. And in contrast to Rudra Skadi's religion of Azriel's dick, I think that this frames it really well, right? It really shows how important this belief and faith that people have in Lyra and Will, this child that's been prophesied, like that is a very religious and faithful aspect. Yeah. just like, look, look, check it out, check it out. I saw this. Look at their wings. They don't touch each other. Isn't that amazing? I know all about angels. And I just remember,

you know, that when we were first introduced to seeing angels back then, they were all like, yeah, they're things of architecture and thought. And ever since then, I've just been really into those memes of like, angels and art. And then angels as described described in the bible and it's like a cat with a bajillion googly eyes or it's like the doge yeah the doge meme but like superimposed and like fucking muscular like all this crazy flashy light and deep fake doge yeah and it's like the fear not it's like wow yes that is scary so that's uh the energy i want to put into the universe today well it's the opposite energy of lyra and pan because they have none right now in this bed or in this leaf bed i should say pan is gazing around una unafraid. He's snow white. He's an air mine.

Later, Lyra will accept this as a dream, and Pan at the time accepted it as Lyra's due, sleepily, which I think is very cute. Like, yes, yes, this is only Lyra's due. They should be bowing their angelic wings at her. One of the creatures spreads his wings widely. The others follow

and they sweep like flame and light through the sky, a circle of radiance around the sleepers, and they shoot once more like flame into the night above. Serafina and Ruta try to follow on their pine spray, but they're left behind in the light. Serafina asks if these are like the angels Ruta

met, and Ruta says they were bigger and they had no flesh, only light. Ruta wishes her well, because it's time for her to depart she embraces seraphina speeding southward on her pine spray and seraphina watches both her and the last gleam of the angels disappear feeling compassion for those great watchers how much they must miss never to feel the earth beneath their feet or the wind in their hair or the tingle of the starlight on their bare skin and she snapped a little twig off the pine branch she flew with and sniffed the sharp resin smell with greedy pleasure before flying slowly down to join the

sleepers on the grass i love that what a nice end to the chapter what a nice end to the chapter. What a nice end to a chapter. I just like, what if it didn't happen? The next chapter, you know what I mean? Like, ever. So that brings us into our next chapter. That did happen. Everyone, Chloe's bracing herself if you could see her face she's just like

pointing her lip like we're here at Alamo Gulch Alamo Gulch sigh sigh sigh we're in Alamo Gulch we have Lee Scoresby and Stanislaus Grumman,

who have been gone from the Yenisei Bay for two days. They've entered another world. Asriel, of course, as we know, has shaken worlds up more than before. They've passed through an unexpected door, and it looks new and empty and strange, but Stanislaus points ahead, saying that a city there was once powerful and wealthy,

stands now fallen on hard times. Lee sees many buildings, a lighthouse, towers, domes, red-brown roofs, a city at a harbor, an opera house with lush gardens, wide boulevards, streets with blossoming trees. And as they drift closer, Grumumman's right there are people there but not adults only children with no demons playing on beaches eating drinking looting he sees a group of fighting boys a red-haired girl urging them on and a boy smashing windows nearby so there's angelica and paulo still kicking still urging the boys to break shit love that

for her survive sister you know lyra yeah i did really lyra was like honestly i kind of admired her she scared me but in a way that i respected i that. A world full of children, but not just children. A thick mist is in the air, drifting around. The mist seemed to be attracted to some of the older children who were on the verge of adolescence.

Lee watches one boy in particular with a shock of black hair that seemed to be moments from the mist swarming him like flies around meat. This kind of felt like Will foreshadowing the first time I read it and i no spoilers but he does not get swarmed by specters thank god i was so worried he was gonna get got by the specters i was not thank the authority oh thank him praise him so

that's not a real thing but i was worried because it's just like so black shock of hair and, you know, these dark features. They reminded me of Will. Lee asks what the hell the mist creatures are that are attacking and Grumman's like, ah, they're like vampires, but they take attention. Conscious informed interest. Children are less attractive to them. So they just crush dreams. Conscious, informed people fall prey to depression and specters easily. Love that for all of us. Love it. Lee remarks they're the opposite

of the Bulwanger Devils, but Grumman says no, they're actually similar. Bewitched by the truth about humanity. Innocence is different from experience. The oblation board fears and hates dust, and the Spectres feast on it, but it's dust they're both obsessed by. Lovely nod to Songs of Innocence and Experience, once more here by Grumman, and a perfect way to explain that soon-to-be changeover.

And also a really good way to keep dust part of this chapter. I think this mirrors really well Seraphina talking about dust to Ruta, that they seek dust. You know, one could say what's the matter? Oh. Yeah, and Pan also talking about dust, and I like the way Grumman phrases it here, right, that

fear and hate, as well as feast, that desire for it, they're both just two sides of the same coin of obsession and i think that really paints the magisterium and asriel with everything we discussed in the last chapter like asriel's another side of the coin yeah he he really is and i think we've been killing kids just as well as the authority and i would even add that this chapter is very much so set in framework for lee as we keep moving on where he's going to ask you know what who are we actually fighting for like am i fighting for the right side by doing this am i

cutting through that bullshit and that yellow tape where the last chapter had ruda screaming this propaganda to us yeah Yeah, pretty much. And he's like, I'm not trying to do any side. I just want to do what's good for Lyra. Grumman explains that the boy that had the most myths surrounding him is doomed and that they can't help. These are, as he says, specter orphans, and many gangs of them rove this world.

They loot what they can when the adults flee or die, and there's plenty find so they don't starve he's like they're fine i'm like okay but you know how come if grumman's so smart doesn't he think that like eventually the kids are gonna run out of food right like who's fucking making more of the food they can't just all live on canned food forever. Or is it that, you know, eventually there's going to stop being that many people or kids if none of them reach adulthood and don't procreate? Yeah, I mean, they're still going to die. No one's bringing this up in Chittagaze, all right? It's doomed.

Yeah, I mean, that is why I paused to really call. I mean, I've seen other people calling Angelica and Paolo villainous characters of the book, and I'm sad for them. I'm really sad for them because they arguably, if Lyra and Will don't do everything fast enough here and get the books done with fast enough some of those kids are gonna die yeah and like i mean even if they yeah was about to veer into some dusty dusty territory yes yes yes yes he points out how a few of the boats are in the harbor from the adults fleeing and that the children won't come to harm. But Lee argues, well, the older ones will.

We get this back and forth between Grumman and Lee. Mr. Scoresby, that is the way this world works. And if you want to put an end to cruelty and injustice, you must take me farther on. I have a job to do. Seems to me, Lee said, feeling for the for the words seems to me the place you fight cruelty is where you find it and the place you give help is where you see it needed or is that wrong Dr. Grumman

I'm only an ignorant aeronaut I'm so damn ignorant I believed it when I was told the shamans had the gift of flight for example yeah here's a shaman who hasn't I am so excited because this is a callback i feel so pleased with myself can you tell i'm just pleased uh this is a callback to lee's speech with seraphina pecula it rounds out his arc really well when he talks to her

about war and we're going to be referencing this throughout the chapter war and choice but he says to her well that seems kind of precipitate seems to me a man should have a choice whether to take up arms or not seraphina tells him we have no more choice in that than in whether or not to be born. I thought this was just really well placed for Pullman to juxtapose the biggest, you know, the big first moment where Lee goes from being a shooting cowboy to being a character in the first book, to juxtapose that against this chapter and to see the growth that Lee's sitting here going, it seems to me like you're just not rooting for saving these people then if you're going to take this weird slow route Grumman,

like what are we doing here? What are we going to do to save these people? Lee wants to save people now where two books ago or two books, one book ago, hell, a couple books ago, if you count Once Upon a Time in the north when we meet him uh he he's got a heart of gold in there but you know he probably wasn't really ready to sign on to wage some war and die for it yeah but i i don't think he's wrong he wasn't wrong back then and he's no not wrong here because we see at the end of the chapter he is given the choice right grandma tells him well here's what we can do and you can survive and he does have a choice just like here he's like maybe we should help those people yeah he also has a backbone is what we learn in ethics

and i love that about lee scoresby grumman reveals that he has though been able to fly he summoned Lee didn't he and now here Grumman is flying through the air balloon into peril and I'm just like yeah okay alright Grumman got him you got him that's why you like Joe Pari so much because he's got puns

got puns and I think I am excited for Andrew Scott on that he's gonna really deliver those well because this whole trip is like totally very yoda-esque right like it's like he's transporting yoda and yoda's like hmm here's a funny thing i'm gonna say to you you know like every five minutes and he's like that's not helpful that's not helpful at all that actually is him we get this line he was perfectly aware of the peril they were in but he held back from implying that the aeronaut wasn't good call grumman i don't

think lee would have taken that well lee's like listen grumman you're pretty weird but i like you have you ever hung out with witches before and grumman's like yes of course i am a bad bitch with big dad dick energy and grumman hangs out with everybody grumman's like yes of course i am a bad bitch with big dad dick energy and grumman hangs out with everybody grumman hangs out with academicians spirits witches basically anywhere he can find wisdom i just want to say that the big difference between asriel and grumman is that asriel has just been putting his dick everywhere. Yeah. He lost a lot of money for it, as we'll remember from Lyra's origin story.

It's a good thing for him that she's prophesied, you know, so it's less bad, but Grumman has been celibate for so long. That's power. That's why he's so powerful. That's where his magic comes from.

Grumman took down the Zeppelins because of edging. When you turn 30 and you're a virgin, you become a wizard. I learned that from anime. Grumman tells Lee, I love this line, that life is hard, Mr. Scoresby, but we cling to it all the same. And he says the journey they're on is not for folly. It is for wisdom. Lee literally just wants to talk about his girlfriend so badly this whole time. And Grumman won't even let him, right?

He's like, so how do you feel about witches, man? Because I know one. I just, you know, want to talk about her. No reason. Ha ha. He's like, I'm not going to let him talk talk about that don't let him get his hopes up yeah right shit grumman's like it never ends well with witches settle down lee haha uh lee wants to know the game plan again he gets that grumman wants to find this bearer of this very subtle knife but what then grumman plans to task him with protecting not only Lyra,

but this bearer will protect everyone. Good enough for Lee, he goes back to doing what he's great at, checking all of his instruments in the balloon. They're about a thousand feet up, and he sees green hills ahead, but when he scans the horizon, his heart stops because there is a larger balloon floating higher, south on their trail. Scoresby makes up his mind to go higher, knowing they've already been seen. They will have the upper hand on them, and he jettisons three bags of blast. Now that we're here, this is just a warning that we're going to enter some of the action of this chapter, and I think Chloe put this here

to tell everyone to get your tissues ready. No, no, the tissues are going to come after the action. Okay, sorry. This is just some action, bing bang boom, seeing movement in the haze. Lee knows that they've been sighted.

He asks Grumman to summon the stiffer breeze so that they can make the hills. But Grumman is deep in a trance. His eyes are closed, sweat standing on his forehead. His demon gripping the basket in trance, too. This trance has an effect, stirring the air, and Lee sees that it moves them. But it also moves the other pursuing balloons as well. Darker, longer shapes are behind the enemy balloon in the distance. Zeppelins. There is no hiding now. Lee estimates their distance, then brings the situation to Grumman. They will go

down if the zeppelins catch up. He doesn't want to land in the water, though, because they'll be picked off very easily, and he concludes with his plan. All right, up he doesn't want to land in the water though that because they'll be picked off very easily and he concludes with his plan all right we're gonna try to land in the trees we're gonna hide if we can because otherwise we're gonna die yeah lee thinks they must already know about the dead scrayling back on nova zembla and asks if grumman is ready and if he's ever landed in a balloon grummanman has not, but says that he trusts Lee. Even though Lee is basically warning him this probably will not go smoothly and that they should expect shooting soon. It's so funny how they approach this situation

because Grumman is the mystical level right here. He is the magic of this. He is out there. He is using his mind powers and Lee doesn't really get all that stuff but Lee physically and analytically understands battle and he is approaching this on like a war analysis and he's like Grumman you have no clue what's gonna happen and Grumman's like no Lee you have no clue

what's gonna happen and then they both are like wow we actually both do have the experience to handle this we will come together to battle these elements kind of but at the beginning of this chapter they really both think the other doesn't have the experience and they kind of grow together by the end of the chapter you know i feel like now that i think about it when you frame it like that stanislaus grumman has had that experience before, right? When he was going on his first expedition that eventually led him to this world, he's like, damn, no one knows anything about what we're doing here. And then he keeps talking to that one dude and he's like, that dude knows about the window.

And as they get to know each other, find, ah, we know things. The both of us. And then, who knows what happens to that guy later. Anyway. They're all dead. Right now, though, they both settle in, the Osprey demon scanning the Zeppelins, Grumman handling a magical token

of feathers and beads, Lee chews on an unlit cigar, sounds gross, and sips cold coffee while the sun begins to set. The Zeppelins grow larger in the distance, overtaking the initial balloon finally, and their engine, Hum, begins

to fill the bay, and Lee and Grumman are still a few minutes, though, from making the shore landing. Behind them, a storm, though, is brewing. Hmm. A big curtain of rain sweeping toward them from the sea and a jagged fork of lightning strikes one of the zeppelins which you know then goes up in flame drifting down into the water but this is very good yeah lee watches the sky burn but the remaining three zeppelins are still flying hard to their course in the storm worried about the

lightning bringing them to the same fate as the first Zeppelin, Lee does what he can to get in the zone and get them into the mountains. Yes, he tells Grumman it's as much luck as skill. And I like that line a lot. Grumman is sitting back in the corner of the basket with Sayan Kator. He tells Lee he trusts him implicitly and the wind is blowing them now. Lee is working to offset the low air pressure from

the storm. The descent starts but it starts to go far too quickly and the wind tears them back and forth into the trees. Lee finally caves in, torn between cutting them off early or weathering it out farther. Isn't that meta? Torn between cutting it early or weathering it out farther which is what he goes on to do and he tucks hester into

his coat he warns grumman to prepare himself and his demon and be ready to jump pulls the valve steams the balloon out much like my pressure cooker and the bag withdraws the gusts and inertia toss the basket around they're 50 feet from the top of the trees, coming closer until a branch snags them and they are thrown once more against the rim of the basket. They recover, but the basket then crashes into treetops. They end up

stuck in a great oak trunk. Interesting, that oak is so prominent in this chapter after we saw Lyra and Will with the oaks there with the witches. They plan to climb down the ladder, trying to pull the balloon in so they don't give away their position, and the storm is raging overhead during all of this. Grumman follows Lee's lead, and his demon flaps

as she returns from checking out the ground. They are 40 feet up. Lee is kind of surprised that Grumman's demon can go that far, but ignores it, securing the rope to the branch He throws down the rope, climbs down, and tugs the signal for Grumman to descend In the din of the storm, Lee hears the zeppelins as well, away above Grumman thinks that they're heading higher into the mountains and that they'll have some extra time Lee gets Grumman though to help him tug the balloon down, grabbing a tent as well, or for Grumman to go set up. The branch supporting the basket breaks

at one point, but he didn't fall, well not too far, thanks to how he had tied it up. In fact, it actually helped them pull the gas bag slash balloon down, dragging it down and out of sight onto the ground. The rain has finally started to soften, but the wind is still beating. Once Lee has finished pulling the gas bag down, he finds the shaman has put coffee on. No magic used. Lee learns, just Boy Scout's a thing. He's like, damn, you got a tent and a fire and coffee. It does seem magical. It was really cute. it's a nice way to differentiate too like john perry's humanity is still there he did grow up

in his world like how does john perry know so much of all these worlds but this is actually cute because boy scouts is like it's normal crap for John Perry. And canonically, he was a Boy Scout. Yeah, he's like, I just carry matches with me everywhere. I'm like, smart. Should I carry matches with me everywhere? Having a moment. It is a really cute moment, though. And I just love that he's like, no, this is normal and not magic.

He's like, I, too, am a relatable person. I am a normal man, not just a magic walker i can be a physical man yeah i'm down to earth i'm just like you at the campsite they're hanging out there's compliments then they're interrupted by the hum of zeppelins above and their third round of scouting above them a flickering glow comes from above it's a flare and lee puts the fire out saying he will try to get what rest he can now and the shaman presses earth into the flames promising lee that he'll be dry in the morning and so ends our action sequence into weird dream sequences and i do want to call out that joe parry puts earth into the fire right to put it out and will shoves the knife into earth to clean it i just thought that was

some cute parallels for them you know yeah yeah Let's hop into these dream sequences. So dream one. Lee Scoresby is convinced that he awakens and sees the shaman cross-legged wreathed in flames and that the flames are consuming the shaman's flesh seated in growing ash. This one causes him to look for Hester in alarm, but she's sleeping, which is odd because if he's awake,

she's awake. She looks gentle and vulnerable and he's moved by it and he lays down beside her awake in his dream but actually already asleep so this is interesting i think juxtaposed it for two reasons against lyra's dreaming she thinks it's a dream that she's seeing when the angels are shooting up in flameo light away from the mall. Flameo! And I would also add that it's subtle foreshadowing that he is using up his power, that the shaman is using what power he has, right? The flames are consuming him. He's seated in glowing ash, and when those kind of run out, his power's probably gonna run out, because as we see later,

we'll keep going through these dreams, but he kind of exhausts himself. A little bit. Yeah, and you know, he's not in the best health already from when we first met him, so I think that's definitely what's going on in Dream 1. Dream 2,

another dream, shows Grumman shaking a feather-trimmed rattle, commanding a specter that is tall and nearly invisible. Grumman directs it very easily, though, and then it's described as like a soap bubble rising, and then it's gone. And this dream is pretty connected to the third dream his final dream is in the cockpit of a zeppelin watching the pilot cruising over the forest when a specter joins the cabin leaning over the pilot pressing itself into him uh the pilot the pilot's demon shrieks half fainting and the pilot reaches a hand out to lee but lee Lee is unable to move. The anguish in the man's eyes is wrenching. The demon vanishes painfully, but the pilot still lives. Kind of. He's indifferent to everything, and Lee watches the Zeppelin fly into a mountain in horror,

holding Hester to his chin. And then he wakes safe in the tent. Wow. and then he wakes safe in the tent wow specters are better at severing than the magisterium is apparently because their victims live these are all very traumatic they don't do kids though yeah and i don't know if it would release the same like no energy it wouldn't so we can totally assume that another dream shows grumman shaking a feather-trimmed rattle, that's him literally controlling the Spectre to get him into the pilot for the third dream, right? That's

wild. It's interesting that Lyra's last chapters had her saying that she thinks her mom would be clever enough to control the Spectres, but it's actually Will's dad that is clever enough to control the Spectres. Yeah, it's interesting because not only has he controlled it, it's like, did he lure one here?

And was like, hello, welcome. Or like he lured one and then trained it? Feels that way. There's something that kind of feels like it might relate to this in the secret commonwealth that I hope you and I will speak about then. But like, now I'm kind of thinking about it, huh? No, that that's crazy. Like that again, like you said, Pullman has not explored this fully, I'm sure he would like to. And apparently Joe Parry can charm rattlesnake charm specters. Yeah, it's clearly some sort of magic and spell, right? then it's fun because in this chapter as you said it pairs well with the previous one because now we see lots of different kinds of magics happening

in this world dreams being real and not astral projection hmm yeah anything's possible but what isn't entirely possible is his safety. Lee's safety. Because he awakens to Joe Parry sitting cross-legged. His demon is nowhere near him. And he's bathed in light. Because it turns out the dream was real. The Zeppelin pilot had, in fact, flown into the hillside. And he sees Joe Parry in the light of the Zeppelin's fire.

This is an awkward way to find out that your nightmares are not nightmares. Because, you know it turns out all of his dreams are real and hester tells lee he's not dream dreaming she's like he's seeing and if she'd known that he was a seer she'd have cured him a while back i don't know what that means i want to know like what was her plan was she planning just like kill him herself them i don't she yeah was she gonna be like no we're staying here from now on we're not gonna see but also why is that so bad isn't that like pretty useful i mean it's useful but it's totally a curse yeah that's true i think lee lee and hester are simple

people who are like i don't want this they just want well yeah they just want their balloon in the skies and to sing old songs all day long. And Serafina Peckle is like, nope, we're now in love and you have to save our daughter that I adopted. And then the daughter that they adopted is like, but my boyfriend wants to come too, dad. You know, so it's a,

there's a lot for Lee Scoresby. He has a lot to do here in little time. Hester tells him to cut it out. He rubs her head sweetly and once more he's back to sleep where he is flying with Saiyan KOTOR in the sky. He's away from Hester feeling guilty

but also feels a strange pleasure as he glides like he too is a bird with this demon. Okay, in the context of like the pan and will scenes are lee and john perry a ship i don't know why you'd bring this to me in my time of grief it's it's an idea and you know you like cats and here I am like a cat I would like you to return it to the manager I don't want it I brought you this corpse

pet me on the head okay well go on I have to hear more now Eliana so please continue well beyond that different connections that are going on again with the previous chapter I think it's a little terrifying right how I mean how powerful Joe Pari John Perry is right

and then like how easily he's just willing to go and like do crazy shit like controlling specters and then kill these men and just letting people die out there whereas Lee hesitates and mourns later on he's like damn that guy was a guy just like me and i killed him and i think that the ferocity and willingness to kill in john perry i feel like that's something that we're meant to see as like a tie between the father and the son because will's like yeah i would have killed those kids and i mean he's already killed right like he's been much more of a pragmatist in uh his and lyra's dynamic in general and i think there really is something going back to kind of what you were shooting at with

saying cotoranly like i really think there's something there as far as them as a ship. Not as much as a ship, because that would not that does not work with my ship, so you know, just saying. He just likes magical people, okay? He's got it tight. I'm an arrow witch shipper, a pecklesbee,

so to speak. Yeah, Grumman flies now too. Yeah, I see it. I see all of the reward to the ship and i do think there's something interesting here at play with like the gender of demon and man right like say in kotor being a different uh demon him experiencing in the air flying with a man's demon yes that is kind of an intimacy it's intimate it's passionate and it very much so screams like pan and will's relationship that they've been forming and they had it's a weird bond that lee and uh grumman it's always hard to pick a name

it's a weird bond lee and grumman are forming. Like, time is different than it used to be, as we've learned from Brutus Scotty in the last chapter. It may only seem like a week or two that they've been together, but they might have been together for, like, a few months at this point. Not to add fuel to your loins fire, but...

Yeah, I'm just saying, like, I don't know, the language there was interesting and kind of sensual and intimate. But speaking of, you know, time, two weeks being like months, I mean, that's how I feel now in the real world. So it's not unlikely. The demon utters a harsh scream, though, which brings the calls back from a thousand other birds who all come and join them. They all rise to meet and they flutter upwards. And then Lee feels bird nature. He feels joy at responding to the Eagle Queen and then wheels with the flock,

seeing a silver cloud against the dark of the Zeppelin. And they all stream towards the ship then. The fastest birds reaching first. And they attack the zeppelin and i don't know if this is supposed to be like a hitchcock thing because i don't watch scary movies but i know that there's a movie called the birds and it's about scary birds and i assume that's what this is maybe but also it feels like there's a an aspect of it that feels like adam from genesis right and the animals needed like following the thing yeah yeah and i don't know if it's a hitchcock thing necessarily but i literally don't know i i literally don't know

i don't i don't know if that is very it might be something pullman-esque uh but i mean i hear it's brilliant from everyone that cares about it so i'm happy for them uh and it goes on like they swarm this aircraft like they avoid the engine because they die a few of them don't avoid it so a few of them do die And every inch of room on this ship has a bird now. And I'm not going to spoil Legend of Korra for you. However, there is a moment in Legend of Korra, dear listeners, where this is what the airbenders do. And it reminds me of the airbenders airbending all at once in general

when they learn that their powers combined are much more powerful and the pilot is totally helpless. The craft sinks, the very last moment all the birds fly off and the men have like four seconds and then they burst into flames and that's it. The world is big but little people turn it around is the other message happening here right is very much Les Miserables. Yeah, and I think that comes through especially in the end of this

chapter with Lee's stuff. But for now, Lee wakes up. His body's hot like the desert sun. He's listening to the slow drip of the end of the storm. And Hester's blinking beside him. And the shaman is wrapped in a blanket. He's deeply asleep. Good for him. San Couture

is perched nearby, asleep as well. I'm imagining Phoebe Waller-Bridge. Oh my god, yes. Phoebe Waller-Bridge, yes. Doing this and leading all the birds now. I love it. I'm really excited to hear what they give Sankator since Sankator in the books is so regal and stoic

right like not very talkative we hear very few things from this burb demon so i am interested to hear it live on the tv show not live but you know what i mean and i guess I haven't really seen it discussed much, but Lee was astral projecting onto the spirit plane during all this. He had out of body experiences, which I do just want to comment recently, a certain alphabet agency in the United States of America put out papers confirming the astral projection and out ofof-body experiences are real and that they have put good money into studying them and that some people are more prone to them and some people are not uh it's not really a learned learned habit like either you can be in tune with it or you can't

and that they follow people that have the traits that possess being able to do that and that like some of the stuff was a wash. Some of the experiments were a wash. But some of them were, like, eerie. Like, crazy. And that scientifically speaking, there is evidence of out-of-body experiences. So I'm just saying.

I'm gonna get on the spirit plane. I'm gonna end up being the avatar. Get ready. You know, I don't want that to be me. I'm gonna be your Sokka. I hope you're my socca i hope you have zero powers so i can laugh at you i'm the comedic relief it's and so are you i'd get you a boring i would yeah but before i get to be the avatar at least gorsby is on like the astral plane i think that's big like joe parry is used to having these obe's but he's someone

who regularly meditates is tuned with that but like lee scoresby does not he is not in tune with that so he was in the spirit world that is very interesting i mean obviously you know hester's like wow so you've been a seer this whole time I wonder if it's something like the ring being reunited with the ring in like his past or like being with Grumman has awakened in him I'd say probably being with Grumman has awakened him

I'd also say that I mean these are very special circumstances this is the night before he dies like maybe I mean and from this moment on as we go through this very ending here we're gonna feel kind of that eerie ending like he feels every step he takes in this chapter like oh this is probably one of my last steps this is great we asked hester what they should do now

but there's still one Zeppelin out there to take care of 30-40 men with guns coming for all of them he sips his coffee, smokes his cigar and watches the daylight grow stronger when Dropari awakens he tells Lee that they must leave as the men are planning to burn the forest with an engine

that throws naphtha potash blend that ignites with water nice sounds rad it's a little different but I think that this naphtha potash is inspired by and meant

to be like a lyra's world sort of version of napalm which is different does not ignite with water but still as we know to be like a Lyra's World sort of version of napalm, which is different, does not ignite with water, but still, as we know, big deal, very potent. And the roots for napalm are, in fact, I think similar to

the roots that give us the word naphtha, which I think is from naphthene. I'm probably pronouncing all these words wrong, whatever, which is a substance that's taken from petroleum, and that's what gives us the naphthene I'm probably pronouncing all these words wrong whatever, which is a substance that's taken from petroleum and that's what gives us the naphthenic acid that is part of

napalm and in this world, Jopari tells us that this naphtha potash is created by the imperial navy to fight Nippon aka I guess the UK versus Japan, Nippon being the term for Japan in Japan, other than Nippon, aka I guess the UK, versus Japan, Nippon being the term for Japan in Japan, other than Nihon. And Nippon actually has a somewhat parallel history in our world.

It's developed during World War II or around that time by the US, and was in fact used often against the Japanese forces. Yes, that's so interesting that the U.S. has developed all of these weapons of war that they use, sometimes against their own citizens. So Lee packs the most valuable instruments from his balloon into his knapsack and makes sure the rifle is loaded and dry yes his beautiful rifle his baby he leaves his balloon behind as well as his life as an aeronaut unless he miraculously survives and gets money to buy another balloon yeah and as we know from once upon a time in the north lee won his balloon in like a bet or in like a poker game and then truly you know it would take quite a few miracles I do think it's very moving how he's like you know he's no longer an aeronaut right now that he doesn't have this balloon and that Lee doesn't define himself by that job but

rather by his values and the actions that he's going to take they smell the smoke before they see the flames and they can hear it by the time they reach the edge of the forest Lee wonders why didn't they we do this last night but Grumman answers that they actually want him alive and that they are trying to smoke them out uh it's just like the worst it's so tense like my stomach is in ropes just from it because it's so anxiety riddling like they have one left and they're stuck yeah so soon the zeppelin's drone is loud over the flames and they're breathing but it isn't long before animals and smoke begin to flee with them squirrels birds boards all are trampling out they reach the edge of the tree line heat following them but they force themselves up to the rocks and slope lee sees the remaining zeppelin long

and high away hoping hoping against hope they won't see the men and the demons from that far there's only one route out of this trap where a dried riverbed comes from a fold in the cliffs lee uses this time to ask grumman how he can separate from his demon like that because he'd only ever known a witch to do it grumman tells him it was learned like all things human beings do yeah i just want to say you know there's these squirrels and birds and what they really need to do is they need to pull lord asriel and mobilize these squirrels and birds to fucking fight these zeppelin people for them also that uh grumman learns how to separate from his demon which i think is interesting and what it

implies for the story but also this idea that human beings can change you know the way that lyra and will they're changing now right as we know from the conversation with pan and i think that this idea that humans learn that they're not born with it i think is something that the story really stresses and treasures about humanity that ability to consciously learn and adapt yeah i mean at this point in the story joe parry is probably one of the most interesting like if you look at everything about him i personally am finding him more interesting in this chapter that i have previously and that is the praise that I am going to give to Joe Pari right now. And that is all he deserves from me.

But I digress. He'll get some more next chapter, I guess, until I tear him apart about the witch. But he's one of the most interesting characters we've met. Him and Boreal, I would say up to this point, are the most interesting background characters, right? Like characters that have anything they're doing in the background.

Like Grumman has been preparing for the bearer of this knife boreal is evil henchman that has his own little agenda through the worlds right um but they all have these little mini backstories and i think theirs are the most thorough the most detailed uh pullman really obviously enjoyed embellishing them as characters. Yeah, he definitely did. San Couture has told Grumman that if they can get through the ravine and to a pass, they may escape, so the men start climbing higher. Lee follows where Hester leads over the rocks and is anxious for Grumman, who is pale now and breathing hard. Not great. He worked hard into the night, and that drained most of his energy.

They meet the entrance of the ravine, but the sound of the zeppelin changes. They've been sighted. It was like receiving a sentence of death. Hester stumbled. Even sure-footed, firm-hearted Hester stumbled and faltered. The zeppelin descends fast for the slope below them.

Clearly, the zeppelin is not shooting to kill. They are shooting to capture instead, and it hovers above the ground where a cabin door opens. Uniformed men with wolf demons begin to stream out about 600 yards away. This is the moment, Grumman says. They're after me, not you. If you give your rifle to me and surrender, they'll let you survive as a prisoner of war. But Lee ignores him. He tells him to get

moving to the Gulch while he and Hester hold him off. He got them this far, and he planned to see it through. Grumman softly says that he had no strength left to bring the fourth Zeppelin down, and Lee asks him for one last truth what side is he fighting for what's he doing now will it help that little girl or harm her grumman says it will help her and that he'll remember his oath to protect her dr grumman or john perry or whatever name you take up in whatever world you end up in, you be aware of this. I love that little child like a daughter. If I'd had a child of my own, I couldn't love her more.

And if you break that oath, whatever remains of me will pursue whatever remains of you, and you'll spend the rest of eternity wishing you never existed. That's how important that oath is aliana that was a great lee scores b i was very impressed and it was very beautiful and i even teared up a little bit only because of how much you love lyra through lee's voice and not because of lee scores b and once more i'm gonna come back to it the scene reflects that big speech with Serafina from Northern Lights. As for Lanon on Svalbard, it's never been easy. Still, if I can call on you for a tug in the right direction, I'll feel easier in my mind, and if there's anything I can do for you in return,

you only have to say. But just so I know, would you mind telling me whose side I'm on in this invisible war? He asks Serafina in the very very first time and now here he is at the very end of the rope and he's asking just for that reassurance that he is in the right place for the right people doing the right thing for lyra yeah no he's not like i don't he doesn't care what side of the war he's on as long as he's on lyra's side and i think that's beautiful poetry yeah it is the shaman shakes lee's hand and lee looks for the place to make his stand hester points him in the direction of a smaller boulder and lee dissociates into his childhood a roar in his ear that has nothing to do with the zeppelin for once he remembers playing and pretending to be in the

alamo with his childhood companions, taking turns being the Danes and the French. He takes out his mother's Navajo ring, laying it on the rock behind him. He remembers Hester being a cougar, or wolf, or rattlesnake, or even a mockingbird during these childhood games, and Hester's like,

snap out of it, we gotta quit daydreaming and pay attention. Brings it back to the current dilemma and I think here of Lyra's childhood and memories where she and the children in Oxford had their secret wars and would play at it among the different colleges and I

mean as we've discussed there's a real secret war going on now and same as Lee played at war with his childhood friends this is also now real he's picked a side Lyra's side, and he's not playing and alternating between which one he's gonna be on. Yep. They'd have to

capture the Gulch. One man with a rifle could hold them off for a long time and the Zeppelin was still laboring to rise down in the ravine. Lee has an idea. He starts to fire at the port engine and the Zeppelin lurches to the side, grounded. He takes that moment to count the soldiers. 25 of them, and he has 30 bullets left.

Hester takes the watch, gray-brown and conspicuous with her gold-hazel eyes, and we get this line. And now these eyes were looking down at the last landscape they'd ever see. A barren slope of brutal tumbled rocks and beyond it a forest on fire. Not a blade of grass, not a speck of green to rest on. Her ears flickered slightly. All the imagery and discussion of Hester's eyes throughout this chapter just like fucking breaks me. or it just like fucking breaks me there's a lot here in Lee's Last Stand that reminds me of

you know while we're not spoiling the ending of these books I'm going to spoil for everyone the end of For Whom the Bell Tolls but I assume some of you already know anyway by Ernest Hemingway inspired of course by a poem where it takes its name from a poem by John Donne,

and For Whom the Bell Tolls ends with someone, with our protagonists, our main characters, sacrificing themselves in a last stand. But unlikely, he's also injured, and he does it so that others may get away, but also because he's injured and can't keep up with them. And in this last conversation, Robert Jordan, our protagonist, is speaking with himself for a long time and is just there alone with his thoughts. And I think in a way that very much is kind of what's going on here

with Lee and Hester, because Hester is Lee. So that back and forth that they have is it's very, very reminiscent of what's going on with Robert Jordan. And there's a lot of discussion on things such as luck and talking to himself and saying, and you had a lot of luck.

He told himself to have such a good life. You've had just as good a life as grandfathers, though, not as long you had, you've had as good a life as anyone because of these last days, you do not want to complain when you've been so lucky. And then the things about luck tying in with religion. And I think this is interesting within the context of this story,

this question of who do you suppose has it easier, ones with religion or just taking it straight? It comforts them very much, but we know there is nothing to fear. It is only missing it that's bad and then there's a lot of discussion of should i just kill myself with these last few bullets so that i don't get taken alive and am able to disclose information and we don't quite see that here with lee he knows that he's gonna die uh as robert jordan does but not a sense of suicide but you know that there's that conversation of talking to himself and it it becomes self-conscious and apparent of like listen if i

do that now you wouldn't misunderstand would you who are you talking to nobody he said grandfather i guess no nobody oh bloody it i wish that they would come and he's again talking to himself just as lee and hester are and then that idea of thinking trying to think back to those comforting childhood memories and then being snapped out of it because they're unable to think of it now but also here hester's like we can't we literally cannot think about that right now we have to do things so just it's it's a pretty famous book ending so i think that there's an aspect that pullman is taking and incorporating here oh yeah absolutely i didn't put two and two together with that until now but especially even when when you talk about some of those ideas of like, for Robert Jordan of suicide at the end, and even with the way the language has about his leg hurting very badly and the pain spreading.

he chooses his last stand you know he has the option of being taken as prisoner well he has the option maybe you know we think he has the option of being taken prisoner and making it back out fighting yeah right exactly but uh lee makes his final stand instead and in a way i guess it comes back to kind of some of the ideas we spoke about with that red-breasted Robin, right? Of that martyrdom in a way of, nope, I'm gonna see it out to the end. And it's the same thing what he said a little bit ago in his passage of seeing things out to the end. And the truth is that Joe Parry wouldn't have escaped this situation had Lee not stayed and done it. And Joe Parry getting to the bearer of Ace of Hater is pretty important, right? As we know, because of who the bearer is. Yeah, it was all those things,

all those tiny things like that come together, like the cats and sneaking into the wardrobe. Hester can't understand the soldiers. It sounds to her like they might be speaking Russian, but Lee doesn't need to hear them to understand what they're going to do. They'll be rushing at them from below. It's the hardest thing for Lee to hold off. Hester says to aim straight.

Lee will, but he says he hates taking lives. Hester reminds him that it's ours or theirs, and he says it's more than that. It's theirs or Lyra's. I can't see how, but we're connected to that child, and I'm glad of it. They're shot at by a man to their left, which makes Lee feel better as he aims and kills the man. So the guy's a little guilty enough, right? Lee doesn't feel completely awful about killing him. The fight has begun. Bullets ricochet, the smell of cordite appears, all just variations of the burnt smells Lee has been dealing with for the past day. The boulder they hide behind is soon scarred, and Lee realizes after a few minutes that he's been wounded already. Blood under his cheek, his hand as well.

Hester notes a bullet clipped his scalp and he hauls himself back into position into position after reloading but before he can get settled he ends up taking a bullet in his left shoulder everything is numb and slow for a moment and he gets himself back into the zone hester is giving him direction to keep shooting even though he realizes that they're just men like him another man goes down Lee reloads and his heart nearly stops Hester has her face pressed to his own wet with

tears saying that this was all her fault for telling him to take the scrayling ring Lee bickers with her telling her it's not because she told him it's because the um excuse me Lee bickers with her, telling her it's not because she told him, it's because the- Um. Excuse me. He's cut off by another bullet, this time in his leg, and another one, clipping his head again.

Okay. That's great. Awful. This is the worst book I've ever read. I'm never reading it again, Eliana. I'm closing the book. I can't believe you took me to this book. It's the worst.

I know. She said that to me. She's like, Eliana, why did you took me to this book it's the worst i know you she said that to me she's like eliana why did you make me read this she's like why did you have me read these fucking books hester is lying now small her eyes are growing dull and she remembers the witch declaring as much and lee realizes what she means but he can't move to pull the flower out of his pocket hester tugs the little flower out laying it in lee's right hand closing it in his fist and he begs for seraphina peccola to help him he sees movement below and he drops the flower taking care of the soldier while he watches hester fade um if you remember the flower that was given to Lee by his girlfriend,

Serafina Pecola, a long time ago. We wish he would have remembered it, unfortunately, a little earlier, but here we are. We all have regrets, right? Ha ha. It's an Arctic flower. It's a scarlet Arctic flower, and we learn in the books, this is kind of a spoiler,'ll you'll learn what it actually

is but it's saxifrage it's the largest in the family of its entire genus it contains 440 species of holoarctic perennial plants known as saxifrage or rock foils latin word saxifrage and this is really interesting with the stone that lee just hid behind as it got chipped with bullets. Saxifrage means stonebreaker in Latin, literally. Yes. So it symbolizes devotion, affection, and passion. There's a descendant mixed with erbium that's popular in the UK. And there's a tradition that holds basically that this mixture rapidly colonized the bombed sites left by the London Blitz in the early 1940s.

As such, it's symbolic to the resilience of London and to the Londoners and of the futility of seeking to bomb them into submission. And Bishop Walsham Howe, 18 1823 to 1897 wrote a poem to the flower rebuking it for having the sin of pride when told the flower had the name because londoners were proud of it he wrote another poem apologizing to it i love that i just thought that was great like wrote a whole poem casting this flower down that's something that he wouldn't know that Pullman would have known because he's like yeah super into poetry yeah that's kind of what I was thinking and it's interesting because it's like there's a couple more things we're going to talk about saxophrage this is one more and I actually have maybe one or two more later but it isn't just an

English thing um we're going to talk about selling with China in a little bit. But in Nunavut, the largest northern territory in Canada, it's loosely populated, right? It's sparse. But the purple saxifrage is their official flower. And it plays a role in northern culture. The blooming indicates when young caribou are being born out in the land. Yeah. And the flowers of the purple saxifrage have a sweet taste.

They're eaten in communities where berries aren't abundant, and when tobacco was a valued commodity, the stems and leaves would often be added to tobacco. It's one of the most reliable plants, and it's fitting that it's their floral emblem in the Arctic. So I thought that was interesting. Yeah, there's a lot of things going on in there that I think fits in. The Arctic flower, of course, with all of these,

but also, you know, the rock or stone feels almost like is, makes me think of Peter, Church of Lyra. and feels almost like is makes me think of peter church of lyra anyways um he tells lee tells hester that she better not go before he does and she promises she couldn't be anywhere away from him for a second another crack another bullet hits lee going somewhere deep within to the center of his life god damn it he thinks that it won't find the center of his life because Hester's his center. Everything is hard. Mood.

Especially for Chloe right now. Everything is so hard. Everything is hard. Hester points out another man on the slope that Lee takes care of and there's only one man left, making for the zeppelin. He refuses to shoot the man in the back. Okay, sorry, I had to pause and think about that.

Anyways, but thinks dying with one bullet left would be a shame, so he aims at the zeppelin itself. The skeleton of the zeppelin rises, turning into a fireball, and the men below are engulfed. Isn't that kind of worse? Anyways. Yeah, I'm like, maybe we should have just shot this guy in the back. That's why I paused. I was like, ah! Not to be a dick, but.

Is it worse? Not to ruin the mood. I mean, I do enjoy that he's being petty as he goes out you know like may as well they ruined his day so I guess ruin theirs you know see y'all in hell yeah he's got a code and I think that's

part of that's a big part of Lee's character right yeah it is and we end Lee Scoresby's arc in The Subtle Knife with this passage. He said, or thought, those poor men didn't have to come to this, nor did we. She said, we held them off, we held out, we're a-helping Lyra. Then she was pressing her little proud

broken self against his face as close as she could get and then they died shitty story Chloe's so mad she's like why did I relive this why did Eliotta make me do this?

It's the worst book I've ever read. Man, it's just like, this was like the first book. I read the first book and I was like, I love Lee and Hester Eliana. I love them so much. And Eliana's like, great. You're going to love the second book then it's gonna be a blast did I say that?

I'm pretty sure you didn't but I'm pretty sure I told you they were my favorites and you're like oh great yeah that sounds like me well to bring it back to the purple saxifrage or the scarlet saxifrage. Ah, fuck. She's crying. I'm not crying.

God. Fuck you. So, while doing a bunch of my floral research for this episode i came across something interesting there is a story set in hunam uh that really really has the popularity of saxophrage as a love theme and that is by shan kang wen uh he wrote a story, The Border Town, illustrates a pure love tragedy with some local characteristics and creeping saxophrage as a theme. Toy Toy, a young boatwoman, is raised by her grandfather after her mother commits suicide when she's young. She wants to have a happier life. He meddles a little bit in her affairs, introducing her to a rich man in the border town with two sons.

Both of these sons fall in love with Toy Toy, and she ends up falling for the younger son. She hears love songs while she's sleeping one day, and her subconscious has her picking red saxophrages on a hill the next day, representing love and its hidden dangers, which is what she feels for this younger brother. The next morning, she tells her grandfather, Granddad, after what you said about serenades, I dreamed I heard such lovely haunting singing. I floated everywhere with the sound and flew halfway up that cliff to pick saxophrage. I just can't remember who I gave it to. Her

grandfather thinks that the older brother is more suitable, and the older brother ends up dying in an accident. The rich man puts the blame on Toy Toy's grandfather, and even though the younger son loves Toy Toy, he won't marry her because of his brother's death, and he leaves town. Toy Toy's grandfather dies on a rainy night, and this changes the saxophragist's symbolism for love lost. She throws herself into her work, awaiting the youngest brother to someday come back, facing death and love. This, uh, this is sad. It's a sad story, and it makes me think kind of a little bit of Lee and a little bit of that saxophrage. As all of you who listen know, I am a strong Pecklesby- era witch supporter. I love

Seraphina and Lee and just thought maybe they could just find some happiness in each other since, you know, their life sucked before. Things happen bad in their life, but they found each other and, you know, all the beautiful chemistry they have in the books and it's just gorgeous and it's really sad because

he dies and his last thoughts were like helping Lyra and begging for Serafina to come save him. Yeah, and he thought of it less. Just a bit too late. Which was kind of what their relationship was, I think. I mean, that's the other tragic part of shipping this relationship, as the kids are calling it, because they were too late for each other. You know, like they were just a little too late for each other. Whereas

Firecore just a bit too early. A bit too early. Too early for Seraphina. Just don't know for Seraphina, I guess. She's just on time for Lyra. That's all that matters. Yeah. Everyone's doing everything they can time for Lyra. That's all that matters. Yeah, everyone's doing everything

they can to help Lyra, except for uh, Sanislaus Grumman. Yeah, he's just coasting. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. He's got his own ideas, which we'll talk about. Well, that was that was Alamo Gulch. You good?

I'm good, just sad you know? yeah, it's like I mean, there's all the things you said but it, the story does a great job of stressing that this beautiful sense of self-love that Lee has, especially in contrast to

other characters that we see in the series who don't have a very healthy relationship with their demons. And therefore you see that they don't have a very assured sense or healthy sense of themselves. And I think that's what makes, you know, not only is there just this beautiful bond between Lee and Hester, they love each other and carry each other and have each other's back so much and that's why this scene of them huddling close to one another as they leave is so

heartbreaking but it's also just I think there's also something what I'm trying to say is there's something just really that makes Lee such a beloved character and it's that his love for Hester comes through in his assuredness in himself. Yes. And love for his values, and he sticks by that,

and that's why he has this confidence in what he's doing. I mean, even as we get to the end for them, they've evolved, as we discussed, that even now they're still changing. And even in this last scene it felt like they were still discovering new things about each other right and hester was surprising him he was surprising hester and i think uh the intimacy of that death is probably what the worst is that That's the most raw, horrible part is just the intimacy of the death.

He went out on his own terms for Lyra, protecting Lyra, doing what he thought was right, doing what Lee Scoresby thought was right. Not what the witches think is right. Not what John Perry, Joe Parry, Stanislaus Grumman thinks is right. He went out doing what Lee and Hester know is the right thing to do in their hearts. You know, and I think that was something really important.

And seeing that intimacy as they die together from doing that, it's pretty rough. It's pretty hard. Yeah, he goes out as Lee Scoresby, not the aeronaut. And as you said, always changing, and I think that's something that comes through in the novella Once Upon a Time in the North, that embodiment of being

comfortable with always changing and growing and discovering your own self, because that's what happens at the end, right? He's like, wait, you're not a jackrabbit? And she's like, I'm an arctic hare! And he's like, wait, you're not a jackrabbit? And she's like, I'm an arctic hare! And he's like, okay. And that's

it, you know, identifying and getting to know yourself a bit more. And then the little bunny against the face. Anyways, that was our whole thing. And thanks for listening. After the episode, if you've tuned in before, you're probably already aware that we do a

discussion where we discuss this book and its effects on the remaining published books, which is the Amber Spyglass. If I feel like it, which I don't think today I will be, I will not probably be doing the dustiest discussion, which is where we discuss, I discuss, on my own, the secret commonwealth and what I think might be in it. I'm saving

that up, though. As we kind of, as we go through and we get to the end of this, Eliana and I have found that we have less to say about the future, because the future is on the horizon, my friend. Yeah, and we get to the end of this Eliana and I have found that we have less to say about the future because the future is on the horizon my friend yeah and we want to also leave some of this for us to discuss

some of it is things that we want to get to when it happens next episode but also some things that we want to save a little for when we get there so future books yes so all that said thanks for tuning in if you're not going to tune in for the dust discussion where we spoil elements from the amber spyglass tune out

now we'll talk to you next month on his dark materials at girls gone canon and for those of you ready to get spoiled let's dive into the discussion yes so first let's come back to that spell at the beginning yes oak bark spider silk ground moss saltweed grip close bind tight hold fast close up bar the door lock the gate stiffen the blood wall dry the gore flood i have a couple thoughts about this. You got really deep while talking about how even the poetry is flowing and being staunched on and off, but still

flowing in between. And I was kind of rereading this chapter, getting ready for this, getting in the zone, and realized that this is also foreshadowing for having to close the windows up. And I, yup, in case you weren't exhausted enough tonight,

I'm sorry to put your heart through this emotional trauma, but that potion doesn't heal Will, just like at the end, like, they don't just get out of it, they have to close the windows. Something around these lines, just the way that they discussed energy and time and things moving and flowing and the blood wall being closed and tightened up hard. And it also reminds me a bit, and I won't go deeper than this,

but there's a flood in a book, a future book, La Belle Sauvage, or a past book, I should say. There is a certain flood that happens that I wonder if that is also a metaphor for this. But this felt like a metaphor for closing the windows at the end. I can definitely see that and what the cost is, right, especially because of we start to see that Grumman is weakening in the very next chapter. And we know that Lyra and Will will have to make a choice of like,

okay, well, now that we know what the cost is, do we do that or not? So, and then the closing of the windows. yeah, that's the cost sigh so yeah less depressing

things uh the witch splitting the sapling with her knife and dabbing some of the liquid into it which closes it and seals it back together making it whole again reminds me of the mulefa seed pods I wonder if that's some foreshadowing for the seed pods especially

especially because of the oil that comes out of the seed pods it seems that of the oil that comes out of the seed pods. It seems that that oil has magical qualities. Interesting. Yeah. And all the caring for it, and so forth. I think that's a...

I won't dabble into secret commonwealth talk, but I think that could come back, Eliana. I'm not sure. I think that could come back eliana i'm not sure i think it could and then we have uh another thing you know regarding the sap another thing that happened soon after that is the rabbit coming back to life and so lee doesn't come back to life per se but you know his demon is a jackrabbit and we do see him again and i i feel like the rabbit that dies and is reborn in a way that's kind of lee and hester right yeah absolutely it's a complete circle of the two chapters that uh that we see lee again. We don't see Hester necessarily, but Hester is Lee, so we do. And yeah, it just feels like a round circle.

I know in the episode I said that's the end of Lee's arc in The Subtle Knife, if you noticed that I put that on the end. Yes, that was an important prepositional phrase because he will have kind of a little bit of a story. Obviously he does. He's the beginning of the next book actually and he also gets to be the mid-end of it so good for him good for him

lee gets his space in the plot he comes back and he's alongside stanislaus grumman i'm just saying um throughout uh all the story you know you have will as this killer slash protector whereas you know i think that Will as this killer slash protector. Whereas, you know, I think that as we've been saying about people growing and then Lee sticking to his values and wanting to help people. Seeing the people in Chittagazen, you're like, we got to help them. I think that we begin to see how Lyra is very much in that way like Lee's daughter he says that she's like a daughter to me because we see her grow into a person who feels

and wants to help the people she sees she's like we're gonna make an entire detour into the underworld now cause I gotta stop and fix things yeah she's like we can't fly past we have to go do this now I mean her with the harpies uh obviously me and you talked about how cute the cliff guests

are the harpies are so ugly and cute i freaking love them in the third book and she has so many cute ugly critters that she meets right and creatures and beings and uh the harpies are up there too but same thing like the harpies are straight up people would not look at them touch them hear them anything they won't respect them just because they're crusty and gross and lyra straight up is like give me a hug you know like she goes out of her way to be empathetic and to be kind and compassionate and that makes all the difference that's what makes all this sacrifice i guess worth it i mean that would i wouldn't say that makes sacrifice worth it there should be no sacrifice needed

but that's a perfect world we don't live in that we live in many many imperfect worlds in this story to ensure that people didn't die in vain yes exactly like she is going to change the world. This little girl is changing the world in her journeys. Yeah. And the way that she changes the world, one of the biggest ways, right, is she opens that door from the underworld, the window from the underworld, into the rest of everywhere else so that people may be able to join again with their demons and souls and experience sensations of things forever and be part of the universe. Yes, and to finish off the ideas of innocence and experience in the story for the day, for today until we come back next month, we have that line from Serafina Pakala,

who thinks about the angels without flesh. And she says, how much they must miss never to feel the earth beneath their feet or the wind in their hair or the tingle of the starlight on their bare skin. And she snapped a little twig off the pine branch she flew with and sniffed the sharp resin smell with greedy pleasure before flying slowly down to join the sleepers on the grass and i think this passage is very strongly connected with another mother figure that we will come back to hanging out with in the next book more mary malone met her this book uh and when she you know tells lyra right when she tells you know, tells Lyra, right? When she tells Lyra of her passions and of the fruit, that temptation, when she is the tempter, it's this passage, you know?

Like, what's the point without feeling? Like, Seraphina thinks, like, imagine never feeling the earth or the wind or the starlight on your skin. How could you live like that, you know? Oh, I was thinking that that ties into the the part in the afterlife as i said earlier where people can rejoin all of those but along with as you said when mary malone teaches them but also just a big argument within this book that life should be celebrated the sensations the things we feel should not be discounted for just those faithful

experiences yes i i definitely agree with that i think uh it's all pretty pretty tied in together and that's why i'm actually optimistic when it comes to the last book covering things you know what i mean there there's some stuff with the books of dust that i'm like is he gonna bring stuff in is he gonna wrap this up i don't expect him to fully have an explanation for the specters like you and i were discussing this episode i would love to have like a detailed like how the hell they work what they mean i don't think that'll happen they're just gonna be a wispy metaphor but i think there are some bigger mysteries that are overarching themes that are gonna tie together and this is some of them

i think uh not only just that forbidden fruit and the zest of life and what life actually means right what does it mean i do respect that though about the way pullman writes you know he doesn't let the lore get in the way of his story and the world building. Obviously he cares about a lot of the world building. That's why he's built out so much of it, especially in the Book of Dust, but that he's very comfortable in being like, I don't know. You know, I don't know this part of my story or world because he sees it as something where he discovers it and he talks about the creation of the demons

and realizing that the demons settle for him he talks about that as a discovery he made in this in his worlds and i that he has to learn what things are and that he can admit that he doesn't know yeah i think you're right i mean i think that's great i think that's great that he's I think that him not knowing and willing to admit that I think is a not only humbling a great

humility on his part but also maybe part of what keeps him so interested in this world that he's created that there's always something for him to learn yeah well we will have yet to see as we go on go on through our adventure through the worlds next month we will be closing out the subtle knife that's nuts yeah we will but and then also next month we will be covering another bit of labelle sauvage but if you

want to get started on that with us you can find it on patreon and those will one day join some of the public episodes as part of this read through of his dark materials and diving into that world. Yes. And if you aren't already, make sure that you are subscribed to us on the many social medias that are available. We have a Twitter, girlsgoncanon, C-A-N-O-N, or if you like the episode or want to send us a question

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probably something else. Probably Google Play, whatever. All of them. Did we say that? Who knows? All of them. And yes, like Eliana mentioned, our Patreon episode this month will be in a song of ice and fire episode exploring the hands and the regency under kang agan the third but next month we'll be back with labelle savage for his dark materials patrons that is patreon.com slash girls gone canon yes so we look forward to seeing you again

and of course we have some exciting news that we'll be announcing quite soon uh on all of our things so I've been one of your hosts Eliana and I have been one of your other hosts Chloe goodbye

goodbye Elise Goresby oh wow