Girls Gone Canon Cast - His Dark Materials Episode 16 - The Subtle Knife Chapter 15

Episode Date: August 28, 2020

We come to the close of the second book, the end of another world. Mrs. Coulter finally learns of her daughter's destiny while Will finally inherits his mantle. But Will's heartfelt reunion is cut short because #reasons.   CHAPTER 15 - Bloodmoss   ---   Eliana's twitter: https://twitter.com/arhythmetric Eliana's reddit account: https://www.reddit.com/user/glass_table_girl Eliana's blog: https://themanyfacedblog.wordpress.com/ Chloe's twitter: https://twitter.com/liesandarbor Chloe's blog: www.liesandarborgold.com Intro: Waltz Of The Skeleton Keys by WombatNoisesAudio | https://soundcloud.com/user-734462061  

you're listening to girls gone canon covering his dark materials hello everyone and welcome to girls Gone Canon, His Dark Materials, Episode 16, The Subtle Knife, Chapter 15, Blood Moss. I am one of your hosts, Eliana. And I am another one of your hosts, Chloe, and this is indeed the last Subtle Knife chapter chapter full of drama and betrayals and uh just like the last eighth episode i thought that was kind of crazy that somehow we did another eight episodes on this book the subtle knife and i don't think we can say the same about the amber spyglass in the future right because when we do cover the Amber Spyglass, I just don't know. I don't know that it will be eight more episodes. It might be 800, truly.

It might. I mean, A, it's a big-ass book. B, Philip Pullman doesn't always split chapters up the way you'd think that he would, right? He's not always like, this amount of pages seems like it could be a whole chapter, or maybe just this one event thing could be its own chapter. No, sometimes it's like three or 10 things happen in one chapter, and it spans like 30 pages, and you're like, this was a choice that you made. It's not so easy. I feel like La Belle Sauvage is split pretty well. The first half of La Belle Sauvage, which we are covering early for patrons. So if you are a patron over at patreon.com slash girls gone canon, you'll notice every other month we've been doing a His Dark Materials episode.

And we decided to start covering La Belle Sauvage a little ahead of time. We put out our very first episode, oh, a little over a month, two months ago, and now we are putting out our second episode covering three more chapters this month, end of August. We will be making that public this autumn. However, it is something we're covering that is like we can do three chapters at a time for the first half of the book but once you get to the flood and everything and going on in that book no spoilers but once you get there no way that's a two chapter an episode at the most there's a lot to cover and amber spyglass that's a thick book. Two Cs. Two Cs.

Indeed. Indeed. So we're going to play it by ear in terms of how we split up some of those chapters. And this chapter specifically that we're covering today, Blood Moss, the very last chapter in The Subtle Knife. This is our Subtle Knife finale. This chapter is structured really well. We're going to talk more about the structure a little later in the episode as we get to certain plot points.

But it's a strong chapter. You start with Will and Lyra. Will is going to go up the mountain, but we're going to follow witches around while Will goes up the mountain. We'll come back to Will, though. Absolutely. And of course, you know, maybe you've been tuning in with us. Absolutely. And of course, you know, maybe you've been tuning in with us. But the way that we structure this is we're going to talk about this chapter, as though you the readers have only read up to this chapter, keeping it at mostly spoilers free. And then it'll be followed by a discussion

in which book spoilers follow, which includes I was gonna say until the end of the subtle life, but this is literally the end of the subtle life, the end of the His Dark Materials series, so the end of The Amber Spyglass. If we dip into a little bit of La Belle Sauvage or The Secret Commonwealth, that'll come in a dustier or dustiest discussion, but I don't know if we have any of those this round. No, you know, something we've noticed as we go through this is that our discussions get a little more diminished, right? We're nearing this last book of the original trilogy, and Eliana has yet to finish The Secret Commonwealth. However, she owns it now, so you can't start shaming now, but later. You can start shaming later.

Not now. Like, give her two months, three months, and then we start shaming her but i digress for now we're closing it on the end of the series we won't be starting the amber spyglass for those of you that will be looking out for that analysis until 2021 probably in the spring we're definitely going to finish up labelle savagevage first. And, of course, the anticipated season two of His Dark Materials, the serial experience over at HBO, BBC. So exciting. Really faithful adaptation so far for the most part.

And we love it. I would say overall we love it. Am I lying? Am I creating falsehoods? Am I Lyra Silverton? I do love it. I would say overall, we love it. Am I am I lying? Am I creating falsehoods? Am I Lyra Silverton? I do love it. I think they've done quite a good job. And I think that some of the directorial or compositional choices that they've made have been really smart in terms of adapting it in terms of timeline. So smart in terms of adapting it in terms of timeline so yeah season two is bound to have more of those really brilliant cuts i hope and of course as you all know the trailer has come out for season two and it looks really good it looks very exciting yeah if you follow us on twitter we did do a quick

breakdown of some shots from this trailer we won't go into it too much i know a lot of people are keeping their experience with the series a little more pure for now. I can tell you a lot of people that might follow us from our A Song of Ice and Fire podcast. It is not the same thing at all as what we experienced with HBO and A Song of Ice and Fire and Game of Thrones. I am much happier. I'm thriving. My crops are watered. They're doing a little more justice to this series. And obviously the BBC production is very much so showing. Jack Thorne is, you know, the best I could ask for to do this, I think. Yeah, I mean, it's no Cats the movie, but...

Oh my god, which one? You know, the musical. The hit musical adapted into adapted into a movie but not all the videos of my cats on my phone oh that too jack thorne apparently is doing it did that screenplay for that uh enola holmes coming out soon on netflix yeah that is going wild but you know what's funny to me is that that is popular but his secret garden is not and i want to see that more than this nolan holmes thing i i don't care and nola holmes i don't care about that i care about his secret garden and because and i'm gonna say this to you all you know who's in it will oh that's right that's right. He is, isn't he? I forgot. Yeah, he plays the magical boy that makes Miss Mary oh so contrary.

Believe in magic and creatures and love and happiness and stop being such a horrible child. Yes. Read The Secret Garden if you haven't. It's pretty good and it's kind of a staple, a classic. You should. I reread it recently for my good health and prosperity and it makes me happy.

Well, on from our rereading, we did get an email from our very good friend Lo, who we talk about quite often. They are very, very heavily into His Dark Materials, as we are, and A Song of Ice and Fire. And they wrote us an email detailing some of their thoughts about this chapter. Lo says, There are so many interesting things in this chapter.

One thing that I want to highlight is that this is the chapter where we get the first real confirmation, I think, that Lyra is the Eve 2.0. And it's the chapter where we see the fallout of spreading a witch. As I've argued, the witches in His Dark Materials could be seen as very similar to the Scandinavian folklore figure of the skogsroet, who is a sort of, in quotes, femme fatale of folklore. And then Lowe has linked one of their essays It goes on to say, during medieval times, the church was hardly a fan of the skok's roit, and they were seen as Satan's creatures. People who would claim to have had sex with them were considered to essentially have had sex with the devil and could result in one being condemned to death. It was also seen as an act of sodomy and

emasculation of the men doing it, which sounds similar to how the witches are sometimes described, for instance, in the Amber Spyglass. Now, while this is kind of a spoiler, I think we can share it with you all because it doesn't spoil plot, and this is the quote. The witches, daughters of evil, the church should have put them all to death many years ago. Witches have nothing to do with them, you hear me? You know what they will do when you come to the right age. They will try to seduce you.

They will use all the soft, cunning, deceitful ways they have. Their flesh, their soft skin, their sweet voices, and they will take your seed. You know what I mean by that. They will drain you and leave you hollow. They will take your future, your what i mean by that they will drain you and leave you hollow they will take your future your children and leave you nothing that sounds very much like a succubus mood get it well it goes on to say there so there's a definite connection between the witches and the sinfulness and the devil,

which I guess is a thing with witches in general, too, which made me first think of the connection between the witches and the skokksorat. However, is the giving of favors or punishments a quite central part of the lore around the skokksorat? Is how you helped or pleased her, either by having sex with her or helping her with the animal she tended, for instance. These are two different acts. Then she would give you some sort of boon, such as luck in hunting or fishing. But if you didn't do as she wanted, you could expect punishment. For instance, she might make you sick. This seems very similar to how the witches are described. Another thing that I discovered recently is that Jutta Kaiminen's name is very interesting in this context.

In Estonian mythology, Jutta is the name of a fairy living by the lake Endla. I'm sure there are even more interesting things to find out there if one were to research that mythological figure, but I found it interesting that she's a fairy since the skogsra that I've been talking about are also fairy of sorts. So in conclusion, there's a lot of things going on in this chapter about gender, sexuality, and the church, even if it's sort of beneath the surface.

Oh, also, this isn't really relevant slash related, but I thought it was important that you knew that Lena Felt's name essentially translates to smooth fields in Swedish. Smooth fields. No, there's a lot there to look into. I will admit, I really thought about researching deeper into Judah Kaimanen's name. There's a lot of Estonian mythology around her.

Absolutely. And especially with some of the fairy talk as you read through the secret commonwealth eliana i feel like you and i are going to have a lot to talk about so we'll save it for then and i know i'm sorry lo but i know that you will send us many more emails i expect another low email for the secret Commonwealth eventually when Eliana is there, but we will comment on Lena felt later because I have some thoughts on Lena felt. I can't believe this, but I had so many thoughts on Lena felt.

So thank you so much for this email and some of this folklore and background and some of the Commonwealth you've shared with us today. Honestly, low. Yes. And as always low, always provides a lot of insight on things that uh we don't know about and teaches us many things yeah actually lo teaches me shit every day sometimes lo will send me a tweet and i'll be like huh the more you know oh interesting Oh, interesting. Lo and I just make AU, K-pop AUs. K-pop AUs, huh.

Well, without further K-pop-a-do, let's jump on into Blood Moss, which starts with the Alethiometer leading Lyra, Will, and of course the witches, upwards and onwards through cliffs and mountains and gullies. Will is silent, and the silence around Will from the witches is a little tense. It's obvious that his fingers,

which are, you know, kind of free bleeding, just hanging out, free bleeding, the lack of healing going on, that's freaking them out. They're like, we did this crazy spell. His fingers aren't healed. Seraphina draws back and visits them after a while and seems pretty agitated, saying that she has to leave them

to go check on Lee Scoresby for a moment. And I would just like to say the exact verbiage is that Lee needs me. Correction. Needed. Why would you hurt me like this, Aliana? Why would you say that to me? Because I like ruining things seraphina tears off before eliana can hurt me more and lyra thinks of asking the alethiometer about this whole situation with lee and then she's like no no no no i vowed i was only going to use

this for will's journey so this has been coming up a lot throughout this story and this part of it and i just am starting to kind of hate it i understand why lyra does it because you know she like fucked up before but i don't know if it's meant to be like wow punishment for using the fruit of knowledge and now like she has to follow what adam says or whatever and i maybe it's not supposed to be that deep right maybe it isn't any of that but either way it just kind of annoys me that like lyra has this very cool superpower and it's like i'm not going to use it until will a, tells me to do so. Yeah, and I've seen a lot of the, kind of some of the deeper exploration of that idea,

and I did agree with it for a while. And I don't think it's intentional that Pullman wants us to think this or to be disappointed in Lyra for changing herself for a boy. And I say that because we know Pullman is a man who does not always think about the way a 12 year old girl's mind operates and how a 12 year old girl might act and what it means in the way you or I, who might have experienced some of that might, right? Like this is not a dig against him. It's just not the way his brain works. Now that said,

against him. It's just not the way his brain works. Now that said, I think it highlights that problem. I think he wrote it this way to make it so Lyra can't go into god mode. We obviously know the alethiometer can tell you a lot of good stuff if you have Lyra who happens to be this child prodigy at reading it. This is his reason they aren't going to use it and tell Serafina immediately, oh, Serafina, Lee's dead or Lee's in trouble or Lyra's going to be taken and no one knows where until next book or use it to find out that they're going to be in danger because of Lena or use it to find out that Judah Kaiman is going to fuck up Will's dad, who happens to be right up that mountain over there that Will's gonna go. And you get my point. Like that, that's why he did it. But I think it highlights a bigger issue that we'll talk about later, especially when you think about the witches, like Pullman does not think some of these things through totally. I think you're right. I mean, like, yeah, it's definitely for a plot reason and as you said like just because Lyra

she is like too OP at this point if she could just use the alethiometer whenever she wants and there's a lot of things that Pullman does that he just pulls out of nowhere and is like we're gonna throw this thing in because it's cool and slash for the plot

like and this one it does make sense for that reason but there are a lot of other things throughout like this chapter that i'm like what and i mean he was just like this is a cool thing and that's fair it's it a lot of it isn't that deep i yeah lyra distracts herself by asking Will why he must find his father and he tells her how his mother has said that he must take up his dad's mantle

or he thinks it means keep doing whatever his father has been doing he wiped the sweat out of his eyes with his right hand what he couldn't say was that he longed for his father as a lost child yearns for home. That comparison wouldn't have occurred to him, because home was the place he kept safe for his mother, not the place others kept safe for him.

But it had been five years now since that Saturday morning in the supermarket when the pretend game of hiding from the enemies became desperately real. when the pretend game of hiding from the enemies became desperately real. Such a long time in his life, and his heart craved to hear the words, Well done. Well done, my child. No one on Earth could have done better. I'm proud of you. Come and rest now. Okay. Well, first of all, fuck you, Philip Pullman. It's not nice. I know I was shitting on him but that's not nice i mean he's great at pulling heartstrings he's great at at these moments of really just showing what each lyra and will what their personal struggles are and you know will wants

love right he wants to feel taken care of he hasn't been able to feel that way for a while and maybe there's part of him that hopes like i don't know maybe my dad can come home and help me take care of my mom like i'm a child yeah let him be a child live that out yeah for now though he finds himself unable to explain this feeling to Lyra, but somehow she understands it through his eyes all the same. In fact, Lyra feels as if she is really understanding Will, more clearly than ever, and than anyone... now. It's a weird sense of perception that she's developing about him. But they have no time to dwell on any of it,

because a witch flies down, warning them that there are people behind them, and making to stake out these people. Yes and lyra get back to moving and they start to talk about the changing climate they both agree that they've never felt heat like this in their worlds he tells her the atmosphere has been toyed with through chemicals and people and she agrees they keep climbing speaking little conserving their breath and their moisture for the moisture is depleting from this area the witch who flew down to alert will and lyra of the oncoming men was named lena felt she flew low along her search for them the people she encountered had no demons they were soldiers from the world unknown to her, and they made camp for the night,

and she's pretty disgusted by their lack of demons. She hides among the rocks, spying on these soldiers, but then she sees a woman. One that she recognizes as the woman from Bulvanger, where she fought with and for Seraphina. She longs to end this woman now, but knows it's no good, so instead she decides to take ten minutes, create a spell, and goes to spy on Coulter, invisible, bow-drawn. Coulter and Lord Boreal

are speaking to each other, but they're on a first-name basis. She calls him Carlo, and we're not on a first-name basis them so boreal asks coulter how she's controlling the specters she answers that they know she can give them more nourishment if they let her live than if they consume her she's able to offer them more victims as she has done here as she's done consistently throughout the story. Shiver.

Shudder. Yeah, that's true. What victims is she offering them? Is it, you know, children on the cusp? Because guess what? Those are the same children that weren't valuable to her anymore.

At Bulvanger. That's true. Or the ones who had already just aged out yeah but allegedly the gyptians rescued all of them allegedly but that doesn't mean there aren't more kids that coulter can take yeah so coulter is not just telling boreal about these specters for fun she also says you know i can offer you pleasure as well and she begins to entice him using her body while their demons begin to stroke each other it's very sensual right like there's a monkey and snake and they're all hiss hiss pet pet we're gonna talk about a lot of mythology later in this episode i I fear, and biblical stuff. But something about the fable side of this, right?

Like the demons make me think of Cersei, who we've mentioned before with reasonable parallels to her name holder in the A Song of Ice and Fire in Game of Thrones world. But Cersei in mythology would seduce men to her island, slip them drugs or poison, and turn them into animals. Coulter's power seems so apparent in this scene, but next year, when we open on the Amber Spyglass,

I think we'll probably come back to this as one of her biggest power grabs, right? An attempt to knock someone off the map and an attempt for survival. Yeah, definitely. All of that, and she's trying to get some information from Carlo to supplant him. She wants to know about

the boy. Who is he? What is his mission? What does he possess? She tells him, you know, I only want the boy because I want to get to the girl. Then she can help Carlo get whatever it is from this boy. While she seduces him, Lena listens intently,

not noticing the specter drifting toward her and her demon. Honestly, her demon could have just been up in the sky. I'm going to throw it out there. All right. It was... This was foolish. Her demon could have been all the way up in the sky, far away and safe

anyway, Boreal tells her of the knife and some of its powers some call it Talyutea Makera the last knife of all others call it Isahida I just want to let you all know as I was googling googling Telyatea

Makera, there's a metal song, a black metal song, out there by a band called Isaheter. The song is, in fact, also named Telyatea Makera, which is apparently ancient Greek, if you were wondering. The term, not the band, the band

is modern. No, I don't know i don't think they're modern greek i didn't listen to the whole song i was like oh this exists they're just modern that's awesome though that must be a reference and that makes sense though because makara is like modern greek scholars use makara to describe an ancient knife or sword homer originally used it to vaguely mean a knife of a size since then they ran with it right yeah of a size xenophon of athens wrote of its use in cavalry so a lot of the art from the time and it makes it look kind of like close to like a saber or a machete even. And of course, teletea means last or final or complete, which is what the knife does, right?

It completes, it finalizes. And not to backtrack, but back to her demon, like being in the air. Lena's demon like is all up in the air. Like it's a bird, right? It flies. It has wings. It reminds me of the very first Harry Potter novel when Ron has to say to Hermione, are you a witch or not? Right. Like when she's like, oh, I don't know how to get rid of the devil's snare.

Like. Are you a witch or not? Is your demon able to fly? Is it a bird or not? What the fuck? Yeah. I never thought about that till now. Like, why didn is your demon able to fly is it a bird or not what the fuck yeah like i never thought about that till now like why didn't your demon fly away why wasn't your demon like uh lena there's a weird force around us that's gonna eat me yeah like lena you go down there all right because they can be far apart like you go down pan is a smart ass too like pan would be in lyra's ear like uh lyra we

need to move now and if pan could fly away from her like to a far distance and communicate shit yeah like i mean we know they can go long distances right and we at the moment the specters haven't decided, wait, we can fly now too. So this bird could have just been up there. Or literally anywhere else that is not here. She could have left it behind

at camp, okay? God, okay. I'm sorry, I just was like, what? No, you're right, and I'm sorry that I'm commenting on it. I'm just, what? No, you're right. And I'm sorry that I'm commenting on it. I'm just like, you're right. Okay, so after Boreal starts to mention the knife's abilities to Marisa,

he's like, oh, but it's mine. The knife is mine. And she's like, of course, Carlo, of course. And she goes to pour more wine. And her demon, the gold monkey, continues to stroke the snake. I never thought I'd get to say that in our episode. I was like, as soon as I read that, I was like, damn, Pullman, you're dirty. It's a very lewd scene. It is so lewd.

It is a seduction. We are watching a seduction. Have you seen a snake eat like a frog? Ever? I don't know.'ve seen any other things it's not attractive right like it is a grotesque like like it's kind of like but it's like a train wreck like you can't look away from it and when it eats some sort of amphibian or whatever like a snake eating something else like a frog for example is the the weirdest because of the shape in its throat like you're just like oh it's slow and yeah it's messed up it's messed up and that's what this feels like though like watching this and the animals add to it the animals are like seducing each other and

like you already know as soon as the monkey is like petting the snake you're like oh you fucked up uh and so while the demon is stroking the snake boreal is like closing his eyes in pleasure and there's this description about what a gray old man he is and marisa during this time pours a few drops of a separate liquid into carlos boreal's drink and i don't know about you, but good things have never happened when an evil woman has poured a couple drops of separate sneaky liquid into a drink for someone. Yes, it's a woman's weapon.

It's an amazing scene, right? Like this is a, it's a whining villain scene. Coulter shines here. She's evil personified. It reminds me kindoulter shines here. She's evil personified. It reminds me kind of of Atlas here. Atlas in Greek mythology was created before chaos. Eternal night, Hesiod called her the personification of misery and sadness. She was represented on the shield of Heracles.

She was the personified spirit of something called death mist, which is the clouding of the eyes before death. Hera once procured treacherous flowers from Acklas that had the sleep enchantment tied to it. And Hera used it to shapeshift the guardians of Bromios into half-ass creatures, literally half-ass, fur, ears, you name it. Similar to kind of what we talked about with cersei and in hesiod's account we get this passage beside the cares and the morai on the battlefield was standing ackless

dismal and dejected green and pale dirty dry fallen in on herself with hunger knees swollen the nails grown long on her hands and her nostrils, the drip kept running. Off her cheeks, the blood dribbled to the ground and she stood there, grinning forever, and the dust that had gathered lay in heaps on her shoulders, muddy with tears. No spoilers, but that feels very Coulter to me. Huh, interesting. I'm interested to see you build on this later on. Well, keep it moving. Let's go. I got more for you, Eliana. More. Yes. We will all

greedily drink, just like Boreal. Greedily drinking this cup from her, and immediately Colter stands up and turns around to confront Lena! She's like, gotcha, bitch! Who thought she was incredibly invisible for real struggles to breathe and lena goes to move for her bow but it's too late she finds

herself paralyzed realizing her demon was enveloped by a specter which again as we've established didn't need to happen even in her sick and distress lena felt could see that mrs coulter had more force in her soul than anyone she'd ever seen it didn't surprise her to see the specter was under mrs coulter's power no one could resist that authority lena felt turned back in anguish to the woman. There's a comment here that originally I was going to redact but I feel like it's important. Marisa Coulter is a dom. She's a mommy dom.

I mean, she is. I mean, that's what this entire scene is. Absolutely. This is her flexing that. I digress. Our friend lo earlier said that lena felt is smooth fields in swedish lo actually pointed that out to me a while ago and we've been waiting for us to get here right to talk about it but i did a little bit of etymology research on lena felt

couple interesting things popped up right uh it's the oldest origin for felt is German. There's a very old family that dates back to Prussia in 13th century where we get names like Feldman. Hoops! Or Feldman from here in the US. It means dweller in the field in German. But Lena's origin comes from a couple of places, mostly Greek and also Hebrew. Helena, Greek, right? And Magdala or Magdalena from Hebrew. In Greek, it means moonlight and sunlight. However, I think there's something for us to dig from in Hebrew. It means a lady from the city of

Magdala, which of course is the city where Mary of Magdalene is thought to have been born of. Here we have Lena as a character like Mary of Magdalene, a follower of the Savior, seen as a sinful woman, a witch in this scenario. Absolutely a western view of Mary of Angels, by the way. luke 7 for example uh sidebar but mary of magdalene is never identified as a sex worker but western analysis kind of pushed her as this image of it uh they view her honestly it's an indoctrination of how they view her it's kind of gross like this year is like a prostitute that follows jesus but like when you actually read the bible that's just an analysis they paint her as this repentant sinner and it's interesting but lena lena felt from the story like mary magdalene was exercised of demons mary magdalene is said to

have been exercised of her demons younger lena's exercised of her demon and lena was faithful much like mary magdalene is to jesus until her body is broken by the specters lena is faithful which given the chance i'm sure we'd see her be repentant for but that's not what we get there's also something interesting that susan haskin who wrote this book called Mary Magdalene Myth. Truth and Myth, I believe it's called. She suggested Mary was called Magdalene because of her stature and faith, right? Her faith in Jesus's story. And many people thought of her like a tower.

Mary received the epithet of fortified with towers because of her earnestness and strength of faith and lena has faith until the last moment and a little later we're going to talk more about witches when we come up on judah kymeman uh and we're also probably going to hearken back a little bit to ruda scotty and of course to lena lena felt who here is going through a hard time because she's unable to withstand this torture a really hard time like she is being tortured right now we we started the book with a witch torture and here we are ending it lena her demon is going through torture and lena begins to spill everything coulter asked of her will and lyra's location the witch their guard, and finally Coulter asks her the big one, which is

Lyra's destiny that we started the story with this book, that the witches whisper of. Lena felt gasped. She will be the mother. She will be life. Mother, she will disobey. She will- Name her. You're saying everything but the most important thing. Name her, cried Mrs. Coulter. Eve! Mother of all! Eve again! Mother Eve! stammered Lena Felt, sobbing. Ah, said Mrs. Coulter, and she breathed a great sigh, as if the purpose of her life was clear to her at last. Dimly, the witch saw what she had done, and through the horror that was enveloping her, she tried to cry out. What will you do to her? What will you do? Why, I shall have to destroy her, said Mrs. Coulter, to prevent another fall. Why didn't I see this before? It was too large to see. She clapped her hands together softly like a child, wide-eyed. Lena

felt whimpering heard her go on. Of course, Asriel will make war on the Authority, and then, Of course, Asriel will make war on the Authority, and then... Of course, of course. As before, so again, and Lyra is Eve, and this time, she will not fall. I'll see to that. So, the big reveal, here at the end of the book. Everyone kind of suspected it, but here it is. Lyra Eve big if true big if true

that is Mrs. Colter's reaction big if true actually no that's sorry that was going to be spoiling is it weird for Lyra's mother to hear that her tween daughter is going to be the mother of all one of the questions that i have um oh you know what there's a moment in doctor who someday you're gonna get it when i get to guide you through it like we've discussed but there's a moment where uh the doctor becomes related to some companions in a way like

he marries into a family and one of the characters is like oh and i'll be his mother-in-law like it's a big it's a big moment so i i think this is big for colter she's like oh wow i'm the mother to eve what does that mean god's fake like i've been reading a lot of judaism uh just like myths and judaism for example and different angles that they're happening from there's a really great book tree of souls if you ever have time and you just want like a beautiful 2000 page ebook to read about mythology and judaism because that's what i do at night like i'll be like i can read a couple stories before bed and i'll be like hmm jacob what are you up to um but there seems to be some sort of like weirdness amongst that right amongst creation like god in some of these myths

in judaism like all i've learned is he's kind of a dick right like he's kind of like oh and by the way yeah i did create angels on the bajillionth day because if I created them any earlier, you might think they helped me make the world and I can't have that happening. Like, hmm. Yeah. God, you a dick. I mean, he calls himself intentionally, right? He's like, I'm a jealous God, zealous God. Yeah. zealous god um but you know speaking of what you were saying regarding those coming back to

judaism in those roots the it's interesting that just a bit before we get this reveal of eve we have this really intense scene that has to do with a serpent and it doesn't necessarily that serpent doesn't really have anything to do with lyra because he dies a moment before this scene happens, or is dying. But apparently, the name Eve or something in Hebrew might share some Aramaic roots with the word for snake in the language, which ties it all together, like there's a sort of pun or this sort of thing um going on there so it's interesting that that's all coming together in the way that this is composed the way that this uh chapter is actually structured and i would argue that it is something to pay attention to

especially starting in the amber spyglass um for colter for her characterization i think in this chapter you view her as evil in high heels right like everything she does in this chapter is something that is for fucking sure you're like oh god i'm afraid of you colter i cower in your fucking footstep but i think there's more to explore as we get into the next book. Yeah, and I mean, she, like, in her characterization stays consistent, right? Here, the information that she's looking for, she's obsessed with her daughter. At the end of the first book, Asriel's like, wait, you're still gonna go after her, even though she, like, doesn't want anything to do with you? And she's like, yeah, I am. And she's doing so, yeah, she's doing so yeah she's doing

so again here at the end of this book and here again you know she's still she's still striving to get to lyra she's going through all this stuff she's killing boreal she's asking about the boy all on this crazed quest to still find lyra and you know there's kind of an ambiguity here right in terms of why does she want to stop lyra from falling or e from falling is it partially her zealotry within the church or is it but we know i don't know she's not really like i think she still has to choose too yeah i don't think it's uh i don't think she's chosen yet i don't think it's set in i think uh i think there's a choice for colter in the future and the choice is power or her daughter and i think that's a choice for Colter in the future, and the choice is power or her daughter. And I think that's becoming clearly outlined

as we see her in this book, especially. All the moves she's making, her motives are not clear because of that. And here she thinks she can have it both, right? By protecting Lyra and keeping her from falling, she can protect her daughter, keep her pure while attaining power. But she might come

to find maybe sometimes you gotta let your kids make mistakes hang out with scientist nuns hang out with scientist nuns so coulter stands to leave snapping at the specters to stop your feeding but the damage is done lena feels disgust for life and then she feels nothing we have this passage the world was not made of energy and delight but of foulness betrayal and lassitude living was hateful death was no better and from end to end of the universe this was first and last and only truth where is the lie right lana can't even physically care when coulter leaves the woman that she hated so much just moments about coulter takes her troops up the mountain to where the witches are guarding Will and Lyra, including the specters that she tells to go airbound. Aw, man. Yeah.

Suddenly, phase two. You know what's airbound. The specters fly now. You know what's in the air. You know who else is there. Sucks. Back at the camp, Lyra sleeps easy after some bread bread but will can't quite fall asleep

partially because of his hand partially because he's worried about his mom he cries softly so as not to wake lyra thinking of how he wished he could protect her but also that his mother could be here to take care of him he decides to take a walk up the mountain to calm his mind and the guard witch decides to take her pine spray off to follow and watch him and we get a line that it's the the sentry robin demon which y'all might recognize he doesn't notice or care but just climbs until he suddenly feels a hand grasping his arm i just want to point out know, here at the end of the second book, we have Will now climbing a mountain towards a place that kind of ends up, a moment that kind of ends up being a meeting of two worlds. Just as at the end of the first book, you had Lyra also climbing a mountain to what will end up becoming a nexus into another world. But she's climbing this mountain, right,

to get to Roger at the end of the first book and at the top same as for will you know just they both just make it to this person that they've been trying to get to really desperately trying to get to in just the nick of time only for that person to then be torn from them both will and lyra that happens to them and then both decide on their purpose slash driver for their story after that moment that's so great i never considered that until now because and it makes sense right like the subtle knife is will's story not lyra's uh and i think some of our complaints and critiques of the text that we will get into are definitely apparent because this is will's story but we don't get another story for will after next book right like next book is it and it's hard like will

in this moment he can't get to his subtle knife to the knife but he is hanging on for dear life because immediately he is grabbed by a man he strikes strikes out at this man. They begin a little bit of a tumble, and this man's grip does not falter, and Will is weakening, and it's kind of like a very confusing passage because it's just like Will tumbling with some unknown person being energy in this mountain that he suddenly climbed up to.

Yeah, he's like on top of the world, and I kind of wonder if will in this fight as it occurs is supposed to sort of remind us of jacob wrestling with an angel long story short jacob wrestles with an angel it's an intense fucking wrestle and during that time you know and a man wrestled with him until the breaking of the day when the man saw that he did not prevail against Jacob. He touched his hip socket and Jacob's hip was put out of joint as he wrestled with him. It's unfair. Then he said, let me go for the day has broken.

But Jacob said, I will not let you go unless you bless me. And he said to him, what is your name? And he said, Jacob. Then he said, your name shall no longer be called Jacob but Israel for you have striven with God and with men and have prevailed then Jacob asked him please tell me your name but he said why is it that you ask

my name which anyways unimportant the point is it all kind of happens I feel like there's some similarities even with the setting right the day is breaking soon and at the end will receive something of his father's blessing which i think is fine to say because i assume you've read this chapter before joining us to talk about it uh yeah

so you know it if that's what this is it kind of speaks to what will then must do right wrestling with angels or fighting them in a way where his dad's like, you gotta go do this. But Will falls helpless first beside the man. And when he's able to pull himself up, he sees the man's demon, a white osprey beside him. One hell of a coincidence. I'm going to be honest with you that Will decided to walk up this mountain.

Like, in reality reality would you say that joe parry was enticing the knife's bearer to come up the mountain do you think that's a thing i think that's possible i think i think with the spirit plane meditation bullshit he did it with lee scoresby right using the attractive lead to him I think he has to have because Will could not sleep and he like woke up and went to the mountain and that's what I'm going to tell myself because otherwise it does not make sense. I mean, it could be like a whole fate thing, right?

Destiny. But for now it is quiet for a moment but the man asks for Will's hand feeling for his lost fingers and declaring that he is the knife bearer. Then he applies a salve for Will's hand, feeling for his lost fingers and declaring that he is the knife bearer. Then he applies a salve on Will's hand, dressing it and telling him he's the only one who knows what this knife is for

and that he's healing his hand. Yeah, Joe Parry confirms that Will has the knife. He's like, wait, you sure you have the knife? And he's like, yeah, I do. And he's like, good, you have a task bigger than anything else ever and there's a war coming and uh you know this will give everyone the chance to start again and he starts to talk about the scholars of chidigatse who did not understand the real power

of the knife of its ability to split matter he compares the scholars their use of the ability to split matter. He compares the scholars, their use of the knife, to stealing candy when the knife could kill the creator. Authority. Will cries out upset. He's like, I don't give a shit about this knife's power, nor its responsibility. And Joe Parry is like,

it's too late. You've been chosen. You're the knife bearer. And if you cave and you fall and the knife goes to them, quote unquote, they'll use it against us over and over and kill all of us. Very meta, right? And we had a question from our friend Shadow Fox over on Patreon on our Discord who said, What would either side do if they got their hands on the subtle knife?

I can tell you what the bad guys would do they would enslave humanity like more right and not just from one world from all of the worlds all of reality and space they would enslave more than they already have yikes yeah either that or they would I think they would do that or they would destroy the knife, right? One or the other. I guess the other side, what? Lord Asriel would kind of try to do pretty much the thing that Joe Pari thinks that he's gonna do.

Yeah. And I mean, it eventually would fall to the use it's already had from the scholars. That's what I think is so funny. Why shit on the scholars when they did what most of humanity would do which is run to other worlds and steal pretty shit yeah what do they think like we did they wouldn't know what else i guess what he's saying is they were they were dumb but and we went into a quite a big critique, right, of Chidagatse and why it is the way it is in the city of Magpies a few episodes ago. So I get it. I understand your critique, Chopari.

Your social think piece on Chidagatse and the scholars. Chopari asks Will if he's won all of his fights, and Will says yes. Chopari calls him a fighter, a warrior, and then tells him not to argue with his nature. But I would like to point out, Joe Pari and Will, that he just lost this fight against a dying man. Yeah, you right. It does lead to some other questions. I have questions. Questions as we go through the

end of this chapter but yeah uh kind of funny that joe parry's like you've won all your battles except for two minutes ago when i beat you yeah and he just accepts it he's like of course you won all of your battles and it's like what the truth hurts Will knows, besides this battle, that Jopari is right. This man, this weird shadow man. And Jopari, of course, gives us a speech, and he says, There are two great powers, and they've been fighting since time began. Is this Korra? I'm sorry. Every advance in human life, every scrap of knowledge and wisdom and decency we have

has been torn by one side from the teeth of the other. Every increase in human freedom has been fought over ferociously between those who want us to know more and be wiser and stronger and those who want us to obey and be humble and submit. And now those two powers are lining up for battle and each of them wants that knife of yours more than anything else you have to choose boy we've been guided here both of us you with

the knife and me to tell you about it wow so it is fate what bonding this is the father son bonding talk I pulled out some lines that I thought went well

with this moment from Paradise Lost you know that poem that Philip Pullman's really into and these lines come from in context you know like while the devil is like scheming yet let me not forget

what I have gained from their own mouths all is not theirs it seems one fatal tree their stands of knowledge called forbidden them to taste knowledge forbidden suspicious, reasonless why should their lord envy them that?

Can it be sin to know? Can it be death? And do they only stand? By ignorance? Is that their happy state? The proof of their obedience and their faith? O fear foundation, lay it whereon to build their ruin. Hence I will excite their minds, with more desire to know and to reject envious

commands invented with design to keep them low whom knowledge might exalt equal with gods aspiring to be such. They taste and die. What likelier can ensue? Just thought that

that went nice there thematically, especially with the whole eve moments earlier eve eve eva oh my god settle down wally willie don willie there's a lot to cover as far as any poems or like you could shift this in almost any direction whether paradise lost shakespeare uh greek mythos mythos and judaism mythos and christianity there's so much to cover in these books and i know pullman isn't always pulling from it but i do feel like that felt right especially when talking about the equality to gods there's a lot of that i mean he kind of is always pulling from paradise lost in this specific story

in a way yeah in these three it's like how if you like 10 things i hate about you it's like so you like shakesy right about you You like Billy? You're into BS? The Bard. The Shakes? The Bard? Yeah, exactly. Will does not agree with us. He says that this man, this shadow man is wrong.

He's like, I wasn't looking for anything like that. And the man says, well, that's where you've been led. We get a really masterful beat of writing here. But what must I do? Said Will. And then Stanislaus Grumman, Joe Parry, John Perry hesitated. He was painfully aware of the oath he'd sworn to Lee Scoresby and he hesitated before he broke it, but break it, he did. There's a lot happening in these just three to four lines, and it's a great piece of confirmation for everyone reading that, yes, you're reading it right.

This has been John Perry, Will's father, but also Stanislaus Grumman, who we talk about in the very first book, who we see his dead head, so to speak, except now we're finding out that Joe Parry is actually a dead head. So also to speak, right? This is it. He tells Will to go to Asriel to help him, to tell him that Stanislaus Grumman sent him to offer him his help of the knife and that the angels will guide him and his wound will now heal. Patron Shadowfox actually reminded me of this. John Perry deliberately says he's breaking his promise to leave Scoresby here, but I kind of think he got lucky. A man does get lucky every

once in a while because Lyra and Will are already together. So him sending Will to Asriel and not putting Lyra's protection first is what breaks the promise. But I take this as Joe Parry putting Asriel's cause above everything else, right? Like prioritizing voting blue no matter who, that Asriel's the only man bold enough to fight God and look God in the eye. And he said this a little bit ago, right? Like when explaining the scenario to Will. But he should be saying to Will, you need to go find this girl. It's your mission to protect her. That would have made it okay.

And also maybe Will and Joe Pari would have realized slash understood who the other person was quicker. But at least Goresby, wherever his soul and bones may be, God rest him. pari would have realized slash understood who the other person was quicker but least scores be wherever his soul and bones maybe god rest him he's probably rolling over at this betrayal it's okay because again spoilers lyra is mostly with will again he got lucky so it doesn't matter that he was like oh no i broke my promise to least scoresby but like at the same time i'm like is that does anything matter yeah and you know you pointed out that the line where all three of the names are said and i think that kind of speaks to like that all three of them hesitated throughout all of his experience and all of his lives right and the respect and honor that he's had he hesitates

here because he's about to do something so dishonorable he's breaking like the wish of a guy who like died for him yeah that's a big deal and i think it speaks to a couple of things right it means that he must have thought that this was so important to the fate of the world that he was willing to willing to break such uh i think i would say like in a way a holy oath right but also at the same time maybe he's just less good at keeping promises than lyra throwing it out there yeah i mean he never went home did he i'm sure he promised elaine he was gonna come home i mean he definitely tried but yeah like he he there are people who are good at keeping promises and you know will makes a promise but also lyra makes a promise and she

keeps it and she keeps all she tries to keep every promise that she makes which i think is really admirable about her adults man and so stanislaus grumman joe joe parry john perry asks for a proper look at the boy he felt for the pack he'd been carrying and took something out unfolding layers of oil skin then striking a match to light a little tin lantern in its light through the rain dashed windy air the two looked at each other will saw blazing blue eyes and a haggard face with several days growth of beard on a stubborn jaw gray hair drawn with pain a thin body hunched in a heavy cloak trimmed with feathers the shaman saw a boy even younger than he'd bought his slim body shivering in a torn linen shirt and his expression exhausted and savage and weary, but alight with a wild curiosity. His eyes wide,

under the straight black brows, so like his mother's. And there came just the flicker of something else to both of them. But in that same moment, as the lantern light glared over John Perry's face, something shot down from the turbid sky and he fell back dead before he could say a word. An arrow in his failing heart. The Osprey demon vanished in a moment. Will could only sit stupefied like all of us. I'm just saying i okay but first i do want to say i love like i'm gonna be mad at pullman today i want to warn all of you there's gonna be some pullman anger today but i do love this moment the moment they get it right like the moment like the moment where it turns from the

shaman surveying him into the straight black brows so like his mother's and that's when it clicks when you're like, oh shit, he knew, he knows, he realizes. Just from looking at him, like after a look at him, he looks deeply and he goes, oh my God, this is my son? Yeah, they both know and felt it. It's a beautiful moment. It's beautifully written

and then just torn from you absolutely I like that he lights the lantern with the match because remember he always carries matches he's like that's not magic it's matches um Will feels the flicker of a red breasted robin pass him

and he grabs it from the air the witch Jutakamainen gasping and shouting no falling from the air. The witch, Juta Kamanen, gasping and shouting, No! Falling from the air. I didn't realize he just went out and grabbed the demon. I guess Will's just out here breaking taboos. He doesn't know, I guess, because Pan was like, Whatever, I'm going to touch him.

And Will is now at Juta's throat with a subtle knife before she can get fully up, asking why she killed the man. She answers because he scorned her, because she's a witch and does not forgive. Sorry. Witches aren't normally afraid of young boys, but in this case, it's quite

obviously different. She feels the force and danger in this child and falls backward. And he's gripping her hair in his hand, and he tells her, HE WAS MY FATHER! And she whispers that, it's impossible! No, it can't be true! Like in that scene

in Star Wars, but instead, the roles are with different people entirely. I am your father. No! Yeah. Normally, I'd be like this is ridiculous that Will is out here just dragging pushing

the switch around but I don't know I guess Mrs. Coulter commands specters by the sheer power of her soul I guess maybe that's what's going on here I don't know I don't know. I don't know.

It feels a bit cold and hard for his character. This is taboo. He is so mad he clutched her demon out of thin air with his cat-like reflexes. Ha ha, cat-like. And intent to harm? I don't know. It felt like Pullman was really hell-bent on describing

what a strong murderer and how angry and focused Will is constantly through this book. You get these moments where he's like, listen, Lyra, I've lived in a dark world. You don't understand kids like I do. And then we get this following where he, when he's not just like choking her out he's actually throwing her at this point he's like you think

things have to be possible things have to be true he was my father and neither of us knew till the second you killed him which i waited all my life and come all this way and i find him at last and you kill him and he shook her head like a rag and threw her back against the ground, half stunning her. What? Yeah, the first line is pretty good. You think things have to be possible things have to be true, but yeah. Yeah. What?

I don't understand. He like lost to the old man. He lost to the guy he met a second ago. I know he's pissed, but like, he couldn't kill the guy in the tower that was the knife bearer he lost his dad obviously his dad was just murdered by this woman in front of him but yeah something about beating this witch up is interesting and especially when we consider uh the witch's characterization which is slim at most right but it's something i don't think we even visit

ever again like any of this trauma for will this is will's book as i said earlier but it's also it for will's story and explanation we'll talk a little bit about what we do know about his future in the discussion but it's not shit yeah i maybe it's as you're saying right like he's so fueled by the anger regarding his father's death and the book does in and of itself right start as you said it's Will's story it does start with Will's

very first the very first person that Will kills inadvertently or not this one actually inadvertently is in protection of his mother and And here, I guess, the next, or not next, but another person that he kills, it ends with this person, he doesn't technically kill them, whatever, but kind of has a hand in it, in a way. It's dicey. But you know what I'm saying, right? It has to do with the death of his father. Anyway, the witch pulls herself up, attempting to grab Will's shirt,

but he knocks her hand away, asking her to tell him why, at least, what Jopari did to deserve this death. She says she loved him, that it wouldn't make sense to him, and leaves it at that. And I, an old, do not think it makes sense and would also like an explanation will because it still does not make sense to me and granted you know i'm not hundreds of years old maybe i'll understand when i am hundreds of years old which i'm not saying that i am now or not since last week but like, like, Judah, you know,

she came all this way, right? This is the part that I do not understand that makes the least sense to me. Judah followed Will, right? The sentry Robin Demon came and followed Will in order to protect him, because they noticed that Will was leaving

and going on a nighttime walk, and yet, during the point when Will was actually struggling and fighting against a stranger did absolutely jack shit and just stood there in the back while Will was fighting for his life only to emerge at the very last second

to kill Jopari after Will has now clearly proven safe and has gotten healing not during the time that Will actually seemed to be in danger. And I just feel like Judah is the embodiment of that line of like, go girl, give us nothing. That's Judah.

Yeah, it makes absolutely no sense, especially it's mostly because we don't get the point of view of Judah coming in, right? Like, if we had her point of view and understood what was going on in her brain at the time maybe it would help because at this point before will can stop her she kills herself she takes her own life she stabs herself throws her knife into her ribs falling commits seppuku uh we get this passage he stood up slowly and looked down at the dead witch at her rich black hair her

flushed cheeks her smooth pale limbs wet with rain her lips parted like a lover's i don't understand he said aloud it's too strange yeah welcome to love bitch but i i agree it is too strange. I too do not understand, Will. Stalking and exerting violence over your victim is indeed strange, Will. Judah, fuck respecting boundaries coming in. Joe Parry, respect that Joe Parry just didn't want to nut again for the rest of his life.

And the moment he's murdered murdered the moment he reunites with his son by his stalker to be fair there have been moments where i've been so embarrassed that i'm like i wish i could erase my existence but like this felt a bit much and i do have thoughts on it let's summarize this right like scorned witch loved Jopari couldn't be with him likely because he was being faithful to his earth wife loved him so much she then killed herself

in front of a stranger about it that she knew nothing about uh there's only so many things one can do here like was she throwing herself at him? And he kept saying no, and then she was ashamed. It's flimsy, it's shallow, and it's a little insulting.

Two out of five female murder victims are killed by an intimate partner. 35% of women worldwide experience physical or sexual violence in a relationship. As one of those 35% in the past you're gonna need to give me a little more than she loved him he didn't love her she killed him people view these stories as youth like fiction young adult they're not though pullman said that himself that these are not young adult books they just were put into that category by the publishing companies and the Subtle Knife specifically, the one where, you know, our protagonist, one of them loses his fingers, right? There's roving bands of violent children whose existence is being terminated when

they hit a certain age. You can't tell me you'll explain Spectre's more thoroughly than Judah Kaimanen's murder of Joe Pariopari right like i'm not saying it doesn't make me emotional about this but it's abrupt it cheapens the climax of this book for me it would have been an easy fix if we look over at some of the other witch characters judah kaimanin could have been described as taking up bow and arrow with the magisterium against him because she heard he joined asriel's side uh add that in there it would have been a great mirror to ruda scotty for example who took asriel's side right when we we see the clear difference of ruda scotty versus seraphina pekala like

seraphina's like i don't know sister i don't know about just joining asriel and Ruta's like I'm so wet we have to join Asriel uh there's a little bit of dimension in there but Judah was mad because Stanislaus Grumman didn't want to be with her it's selfish that's not really love if that's what Pullman is trying to perpetuate is love I think there's some issue here some of what Lowe offers in their essay on witches and the fairies is interesting, with the witches being important in this story with that motive, and in The Subtle Knife specifically, witches play as

bookends. Despite Will's first chapter, we have Seraphina and the witch being tortured by Coulter in the very beginning, right? The witch cries out for Yanbei Aka, and Seraphina embodies it and kills her. There's invisibility charms. The first witch dies, but she dies just in time. We have this passage in The Subtle Knife. What was your prophecy about this child?

Coulter went on and her voice was all bronze now ringing with passion. What is the name that will make her destiny clear and then later we hear she trembled as she took the knife from her waist the witch was sobbing she's the one who came before and you've hated and feared her ever since well now she's come again and you failed to find her she was there on Svalbard with Lord Asriel. You lost her. She escaped and she will be. Of course, her life then ends, but Lena Felt isn't so lucky she's tortured, as she doesn't even receive mercy of a clean or real death. What does that do to Lena Felt's soul? Her demons killed, but she still exists. Sou like tony mccarius did in book one right

like her sisters where will and lyra are or were camped out and of course judah kaiman's actions contrast lena felt seen strongly in this chapter judah kaiman is younger than seraphina and seraphina tells her when she first meets her forget your hatred judah but judah carries this hatred and it strengthens when lena is dying we get these lines that we have read already the world was not made of energy and delight but of foulness betrayal lassitude living was hateful death was no better and from end to end of the universe this was first and last and the only truth for judah kaimanen this is how she was living before the specters right maybe that's a bit of something being played with judah lived a life that was consumed with this hatred this passion but this betrayal and lena though we know little of her was depicted as fighting at bull vanger so

she had to have had a strong sense of morals. And her choosing to spy on Coulter was to protect Will and Lyra for the roles there to play throughout their journey. Yanbei Aka does not come in time for either of the witches we've talked about this evening. They're both killed in war and love, war and scorn, war and drama.

But either way, they don't see yambeaka damn it's all those things you said right and i think that's such a sad way to put it at the end uh the ends that these two witches meet but you know as you said there's a lot of it that just doesn't hang together when it comes to judah there's all the numbers that you said but also you know i think the the statistic is one of six women in the united states uh report having been a victim of stalking right and and there's just some of it that doesn't hang on and you you put forth a couple of different alternatives and i think another alternative could have been you know not just like judah defecting maybe like even lena right lena now taken as we see a moment to go by mrs coulter could have been sent like as like a sort of you know the way that at bull

right those who had were cut from their demons were easily controllable. Like, maybe Lena could have been controlled and that would have made more sense than whatever the fuck happened here. And maybe that could have given us a little bit of insight, too, as well, of Yanbe Aka does not come for either of these witches.

But, for now, while we're questioning, there's this line. The little lantern still flickered and flared as the draft through the ill-fitting window licked around the flame, and by its light, Will knelt and put his hands on the man's body, touching his face, his shoulders, his chest, closing his eyes, pushing the wet gray hair off his forehead, pressing his hands to the rough cheeks, closing his father's mouth, squeezing his hands. Father,

he said, Dad, Daddy, Father, I don't understand why she did that. It's too strange for me. But whatever you wanted me to do, I promise, I swear I'll do it. I'll fight. I'll be a

warrior. I will. This knife, I'll take it i'll fight i'll be a warrior i will this knife i'll take it to lord asriel wherever he is and i'll help him fight that enemy i'll do it you can rest now it's all right you can sleep now okay like i know we said it was really abrupt and like takes you out of the moment, immersion, etc. But also... The Will moments are great. I just want to love Will. The Judah moments. I want to give Will my undivided attention, my undivided love.

I want to tell him that he's supported. I support him. know yeah he takes his dad's cloak because he has no use now for it because you know he's dead and also it's cold so will takes that he takes his dad's deerskin bag the blood a lantern, and he blows out the candle, looking at the dim shapes of his dad and the dead witch, before heading back down the mountain. Damn, he wasn't even able to bury him. That's so sad.

Yeah. So, a bit ago, in this chapter, Will reminds us that his mother believes that he was to take on his father's mantle, which of course, the phrase was to take on his father's mantle, which of course the phrase means to take on a role, usually quite a big one, sometimes leadership, that turn of phrase. And Will does so, right? With his father's last charge in those words,

it's not continuing his father's task, but carrying on what his father's last charge is, and that promise. But this last action where Will takes the cloak which is what a mantle is turns it also into will taking up his father's mantle quite literally not just figuratively and i think that you know talking about the relationship will has with this ending versus lyra's ending with book one i also want to talk again about the contrast here between the relationship will and lyra respectively have with their parents because lyra's parents are shitty parents they are in many ways negligent and actively very hurtful towards her and many other children often dismissing her using her as a pawn killing her friends or actually doing worse to them whatever will's parents also have of course a negative effect on him in a different way like will he cares deeply for his parents not that

lyra doesn't care for her parents she does but are they worth it debatable but you know rather than will's parents showing cruelty towards him they continue to instead burden him they thrust him into all of these positions of responsibility that shouldn't be on the shoulders of someone so young at all yeah as will heads back the air is charged with electric sounds distant but close chanting wing beats metal on metal he turns to see where he'd left Lyra, but he ends up halted by two figures in the dark. They reveal themselves as angels to Will once they confirm he's the knife bearer, and they'd been guarding over his father all this time.

Will angrily asks, well, why didn't you stop him from getting fucking murdered by the witch a few minutes ago? A valid question. And they're like, well, he had no purpose because he led us to the knife bearer. Will has resigned to this new fate as they say

they plan to guide him to Asriel. He's like, alright, just let me wake Lyra first. And he goes to pass them to the village, but something seems wrong. I want to point out that the angels could have told him. I guess they just wanted that the angels could have told him. I guess they just wanted drama.

They're like, whatever, let's watch the witch kill that guy. Whatever, let's not tell Will what he's going to see. Yeah, it's not their best move. The witches that we turn to see are all standing or sitting. Statuesque, right? Very statuesque. Unmoving. Some had fallen to the the ground which will is like in horror oh my god the specters must have attacked mid-air we get this passage the hollow under the rock was empty lyra was gone there was something under the overhang where she'd been lying it was her little canvas rucksack, and from the weight of it,

he knew without looking the alethiometer was still inside. Will was shaking his head. It couldn't be true, but it was. Lyra was gone. Lyra was captured. Lyra was lost. The two dark figures of the Bene Elim had not moved, but they spoke. You must come with us now.

Lord Asriel needs you at once. The enemy's power is growing every minute. The shamans told you what your task is. Follow us and help us win. Come with us. Come this way. Come now. And Will looked from them to Lyra's rucksack and back again and didn't hear a word they said what a nice touch

because we went through a whole entire arc in this book to get her lithiometer back so will's sitting here like there's no fucking way that lyra left this it's not possible like she would not have done this to me i would be so mad through all of that effort she wouldn't have done this to me Lyra would not have made me go through all of that effort she wouldn't have though Lyra would not have done that to her that's true she would not have made him go through all this effort for absolutely fucking nothing there's an aspect of the language

here and I don't know that Pullman's actually doing this but because you were talking about Mary Magdalene that makes me think of the moment granted it's very different in that Lyra was clearly taken but it makes me think of the moment right where like they go to see Jesus

in the tomb and go check out his body and then they're like oh it's empty and the angels are like it's empty go tell the good news so yeah but here it's like way sadder um god poor that's a great way to look at it of like the savior's gone where'd the savior go she was here and now she's gone and like i just can't get over she would not have left her lithiometer what a cliffhanger can you believe he wrote this yeah and people had to

actually wait for the next book but it came out so it's fine I mean yeah it wasn't an a-swath amount of waiting yeah yeah he ended on this cliffhanger and then also so do you think that if Will had been there

with the knife would the specters have come i mean i think it's proven he would have come within a radius so some of the witches would have died they would have been able to save some of the other witches but i don't know i mean saving some people is better than no people. I'm just wondering, like, would that have been a difference if Will had been there? I think it only covers a radius is all, you know? Yeah. That's true. I'm just wondering. Anyway. It would have. But I guess who are we to say what kind of amount it would change? Yeah. But, you know, plot. amount it would change yeah but you know plot plot there's a lot of that in this book i've noticed especially in this finale there's been a lot in this finale that uh that i've been like oh

well i guess plot huh yeah and i don't want to feel negative about this book because i really do like it and i think there's a lot that's going to connect to the next book we're about to talk about in our discussion, our spoiler section for the Amber Spyglass. But it's not bad. It's just a raw book. Yeah, there are aspects of it that are just like, I guess it's not that deep. And I know that he says it's not a young adult novel or children's literature, but I think that's part of what makes it feel like, I guess, because it's not, it's, it's a little flimsy some of this rationale and the happenings.

Yeah. Well, that's the subtle knife. That's, that's it. That's how we end the subtle knife. Lyra's gone. Will's dad is dead. Will's lost. Little boy lost.

Little boy lost. And his father just floated away like vapor little laika lost yeah definitely some william blake going on here definitely some songs of innocence experience and i don't know how we're gonna wait till next spring to start the amber spyglass yeah i, I'm kind of like, why did we do that? Well, I guess that is some motivation to finish La Belle Sauvage as fast as possible, huh? Yeah, but for those of you who couldn't wait to discuss the Amber Spyglass, we do have a discussion where we're going to talk about it a little bit. Yes. So thanks so much.

If you have not read the amber spyglass tune out now because we are gonna spoil it in our discussion we will see you well hopefully in the spring then or if you are interested in watching his dark materials series 2 hbo bbc we will be covering that this autumn as well so we'll see you back for then yes so the discussion so my first discussion thought i've been waiting so long for this i feel like since the very beginning of the episode we get this line from judah kaimanen at the end of the chapter where she can't explain to will why she killed jopari or their love because he wouldn't understand. I know that I shit on it at the end of the episode and I still feel that way. However, I think there is the metaphor here is that Judah dies for love, quote unquote love, I say.

And then we have Will and Lyra experiencing love in the amber spyglass like mary said he whispered you know straight away when you like someone when you were asleep on the mountain before she took you away i heard pan i heard she whispered i was awake and i wanted to tell you the same and now i know what I must have felt all the time I love you Will I love you the words that his nerves ablaze all his body thrilled with it and he answered her in the same words kissing her hot face over and over again drinking in with the adoration the scent of her body and her warm honey fragrant hair in her sweet moist mouth that tasted of the red fruit.

Around them there was nothing but silence, as if all the world was holding its breath. So I think that is what Pullman was maybe trying to echo in the final book, that the witch could not explain to him love. He had to experience it. Yeah. But it was a stupid fucking way to get there yeah and it's pretty different it can be both that i think it's stupid and that that's what pulled me thinking

no no i agree i think i think that's what you're saying but also i'm like the circumstances are pretty different what happened here is pretty different absolutely I want to point out quickly that the two angels that we have there at the end right those are Baltimus and Baruch

which it seems as though this is an evidence of Philip Pullman's own sort of process it seems like he's very much into the discovery of what happens in this world as it goes to an extent. And here he hasn't learned Baltimore's and Barak's names. They haven't introduced themselves to him properly yet. Not till the next book or when he starts writing it.

Yes, it was a brief glimpse in, but I'm excited for Will to have his adventure with them because he spends a very long time with them i mean that's like the beginning of the book i kind of hinted at it in the episode but uh coulter yeah here like you're all like oh no coulter got lyra oh no but we start the book and it's like, oh no, Coulter loves Lyra too much. Like put down the rabbit, Coulter, first of all. You know what I mean? Like look at the flowers, holy shit. But like she actually is there creepily

out of her creepy undying love for her daughter. And you're like, oh, I don't actually like this Coulter better. Yeah, it's kind of another version I think we've talked about it maybe in A Song of Ice and Fire not here but like another manifestation of the Jungian archetype of the mother and the shadow

part of it the shadow of the mother where it becomes smothering and keeps keeps someone from seeing too much of the world. But, you know, speaking about mothers, Lyra, mother of all. The mother of all. Yeah, there's a lot of parallels between the end of this book for Will

and the end of book one for Lyra. Both rejoin, you know, with the person who died for their character development in the underworld. But I do kind of find it interesting that it seems that the fall that's described for Lyra the fall of man as it's often spoken of isn't regarding the knowledge

of the alethiometer though that's one of the signs that she's Eve nor the part where she actually kills God apparently that's not the fall either somehow interestingly despite thinking she would at first actually kills God. Apparently that's not the fall either, somehow. Interestingly. Despite thinking she would at first prevent Lyra's fall,

Mrs. Coulter switches sides and kind of aids it with Mrs. Coulter herself actually entering an endless, eternal fall, literal fall herself into the abyss. But the fall for Lyra and Will is actually like a way simpler. You read a lot of the scene just now. That's the into the abyss but the fall for lyra and will is actually like a way simpler you read you read

it out of the scene just now that's the that's the fall and the point that lyra disobeys is the thing about lyra is that there are a million points throughout this book series in which lyra disobeys things that's just who she is so i think it's interesting there's not like there's a singular moment in which she and will taste of the fruit or each other that makes that itself the act of disobedience even though mary's supposed to like tempt them play the role of the serpent but i don't know it doesn't feel like it's disobedient i mean it seems more like it's a list the the prophecy right is a list of different things that lyra will do, not just one. And disobeying is

one that she's just very good at. And perhaps it's, like, disobeying the Order to aid Lord Asriel, is that what it is? Or disobeying to bring him the knife? Is it disobeying what everyone wants her to do and choosing to go to the Underworld instead? I don't know. But, like, in doing so,

right, she saves all of life kind of twice. She defeats death and freeing the souls and then restoring knowledge and dust to everyone. And therefore the act of truly living versus obedience. And I don't know, is the act of pursuing knowledge in and

of itself meant to be that disobedience? Is that what it is? Well, I mean, that is the garden, right? Knowledge. The dust. That's what the fruit is. And that's what she is offered by Mary Malone in that last book. That's what they are both offered by Mary Malone is knowledge for them to take that knowledge and go forth and create their own decisions from it.

Where Coulter and Asriel and all these different people in the story had their own ideas for these children, even as far as Lee, even as far as Joe Parry, we could say. They all had their own ideas of what these children needed to do to save the world. And I think it's pretty important that these children, in the end, they take this fucking sidebar to go feed each other fruit and kiss yeah i think that's really important i think that's true the disobedience

is in and of itself uh veering the course of what others thought for them yeah you know speaking of knowledge uh what about that carlos Boreal death and acquiring knowledge? That was so big for Coulter's character. I don't think people isolate this often and think about it, but this is her security. Boreal's ambitious and has all the same connections as her. And worse, he's a man. One of them was always going to die. And at the same time, when we open the amber spyglass like

i said marisa is actually desperate and powerless like that's closer to why she killed boreal he had far too much steam on her yeah and he trusted her too much right he opens everything up and and shows marissa pretty much everything that he knows and makes himself in a way kind of useless to her by that point because at the beginning he's like yeah specters and Marissa's like I think I could deal with those and Lyra's also like I bet my mom could deal with those

yeah like her power is pretty strong and it's like known by the end which I think he did a really good job of transforming her in this book into kind of a more serious force but i feel like it's also really hidden like this this well-rounded like oh she's a woman in bitch business you know what i mean like she's a a woman as a top cop yeah i mean you see that that's a trope that comes up every now and then they're like evil but a woman yeah like in a book or in real life

yeah and I mean like I think like you said it's interesting to see Coulter doing that and she doesn't get punished for it by any means does she no one calls her out on this does she no one less player

yeah within the magisterium all the different factions warring with one another calls her out on this, does she? No. One last player. Yeah. Within the magisterium. All the different factions warring with one another. She makes a lot of interesting moves. Finally, you know, let's talk about that broken promise, right? The promise that meant nothing because Lee wasn't even mad when we saw him again in the underworld

where he and Jopari were just chilling. Maybe that is his version of hounding Jopari for breaking the promise, but it seemed to me more like they were totally snogging, bro-ing out. It was almost like he was like, look, my kid and your kid like each other, Jopari.

We'll put our differences aside, even though you broke my dying wish. We'll join our houses yeah maybe joe part was like but technically he's like by my mother's navajo ring technicalities it still helped lyra i kind of like hate to be this obnoxious book snob now that i've read the books like two to three times but like it just is the subtle knife is so good in so many ways fundamentally but there are so many ways that it's like oh you're just making this shit up it does feel like a bridge to the second book like i feel like there was a lot to discuss in the first book in terms of foreshadowing for

some things in this book and but even to the third book right and there's less i feel that we've been able to talk about that feels like it's foreshadowing the third book in this but also i i want to say as a child when i read this the second book was my least favorite i feel like the middle books are always kind of sandwiched like that right like a lot of people don't like clash of kings and the asanga by some fire books and i feel like that does a lot of pickup and sandwiched like that, right? Like a lot of people don't like Clash of Kings and the Asanga Ways of Fire books. And I feel like that does a lot of pickup. And I love this book. I think it is a lot of pickup. Like here's all the pieces crashed to the ground.

Here's how we're going to pick them up. And here's how we're going to move forward. But I think he did stumble in a lot of that. Yeah, it does. I don't know. There are a lot of ways in which it feels like it's just a bridge. But. it does i don't know there are a lot of ways in which it feels like it's just a bridge but well i think it's going to be a great bridge to another world or to another book right to the

amber spyglass next spring so i'm really excited to read it then and i think i'm gonna have to read it a couple times by then wow you want to just break your heart over and over again um how about we start the amber spyglass with lee and his body and seraphina i don't want to handle that so no i don't want to start the next book eliana thanks and then yorick's gonna eat so i guess that's part of the thing right with the fighting and will fighting we get some foreshadowing first a lot of the stuff that happens in the amber spyglass like him staring down his count his like fursona yorick bernison yes yes according to according to lyra so well well i can't wait to get there i know we have to wait a while however if you haven't started

reading the books of dust highly recommend it get into it labelle savage is the first book of dust eliana and i are covering that a few chapters at a time right now uh we started on patreon we've got a couple episodes in the book and we are going to pull those out and put them for public for all of you starting in september yes and you know also starting in september again we are opening up our discord which uh we have currently been beta testing with chestnut sweetfoot and zorse tier patrons and you'll be opening it that up to our thunder tier patrons so storm on in this September stormy September I made that up just now and fingers crossed that we will

have a show to be covering come October, November, December somewhere in there in the autumn and winter months a His Dark Materials serial to be following so more to come on that as the details are made available to us. Thank you so much for

listening and i think if i'm not missing her direct materials is starting the subtle knife right yes they are so make sure you're tuning into that coverage when they start it up soon yeah if you want to hear another perspective on all this they they've been doing a great job covering the series itself and they're a lot of fun. They're like the UK-us in ways. They actually know what a fucking milk float is, okay?

Well, maybe I should hire them. Probably. Thanks so much for listening. We will tune in with you next month to talk La Belle Sauvage and if you have something that you would like to say to us you can find us on twitter at girlsgonecanon

or shoot us an email at girlsgonecanon at gmail.com hey we are on a ton of platforms for you to subscribe and listen to us on check out Spotify, Google Play Podcasts, Apple Podcasts, you name it.

We are there. Thanks a lot, everyone. See y'all next time. I've been one of your hosts, Eliana. And I have been another one of your hosts, Chloe. Talk to you next time. Goodbye.