Girls Gone Canon Cast - His Dark Materials Episode 19 - The Amber Spyglass Chapters 11-13

Episode Date: September 28, 2021

War comes to the valley of rainbows as factions hope to claim the sleeping Lyra. But she and Will have their own side and allies. Hopefully they can count on these new, minor characters...   ----   Eliana's twitter: https://twitter.com/arhythmetric Eliana's reddit account: https://www.reddit.com/user/glass_table_girl Eliana's blog: https://themanyfacedblog.wordpress.com/ Chloe's twitter: https://twitter.com/liesandarbor Chloe's blog: www.liesandarborgold.com   Intro: Waltz Of The Skeleton Keys by WombatNoisesAudio | https://soundcloud.com/user-734462061

you're listening to girls gone canon covering his dark materials Hello everyone and welcome to Girls Gone Canon Reads His Dark Materials, Episode 19, The Amber Spyglass, Chapters 11-13. I am one of your hosts, Eliana. And I am another one of your hosts, Chloe, my gosh i missed his dark materials i did i i really enjoyed reading these three chapters with you eliana and the three chapters we are going to be reading this week like you said are chapters 11 12 and 13 the dragonflieske, and Tialis, and Salmachia. Actually, this morning, I saw a dragonfly when I was walking over to somewhere, and I was like, it's a sign. It's a sign. That's a sign. It is.

I think so. And we're recording in daylight, so that's kind of a sign, too. It's magical. This never happens. Yeah. That's kind of a sign, too. It's magical. This never happens. Yeah. So speaking of daylight, perhaps if you hear the sounds of birds, it is a life coming through the window. Hopefully not. And I actually am watching one of my friend's demons, you know, traveling along with someone else's demon this weekend.

Wow. How political. You have a severed demon friend? I don't know if it's severed yeah or just um you know far apart i mean i think that i think that this dog's this dog's human could definitely be a witch oh oh okay well what is what is this demon's name that you're watching i'm watching aiko the shiba inu aiko a shiba inu i wonder i didn't really look up what that would mean. I didn't really think about doing a demon hour for Aiko. But they're naturally charming, and they're very irreplaceable and valiant and faithful in character. So think on that, Aiko. I was just thinking doge memes. That's what I associate.

The most memeable of demons. Very memeingful. Very memeingful here. Very laugh. most memeable of demons very meaningful very memey here oh my god aliana aliana please tell us what the spoiler policy is before we go too far with our good friends we do go pretty far so uh we we have a we have a spoiler policy we do okay following it so we're getting close we're getting towards the end of the spoiler exactly exactly we'll be free soon so we started this journey thinking yeah we're gonna have a spoiler policy and and this is what it is right we everything up until this point in the books is fair game so right now that includes book one northern light slash the golden compass and book two the subtle knife and you know chapters one through ten of the amber spyglass so

that's all in here but anything that is too spoilery goes into the dust discussion the dusty dusty discussion and that's where we're talking about things like the Books of Dust, La Belle Sauvage, The Secret Commonwealth, The Aliana Still Hasn't Finished. I know this from the look on her face. I know some things.

I know some things. And, yeah, so as well as, of course, the novellas, which, if you do want to hear our takes on that, we do have those available on our Patreon for patrons. Five dollars and up in the stranger tier and above. And, you know, by the time you get this episode, you'll have just missed it. So sorry, friends. But we also have other things on our Patreon.

But we also have other things on our Patreon. Yeah. Not only have we covered the novellas in full for patrons, as you said, Eliana, but we put up monthly a special episode on one of the series we're covering or on a book that we're interested in. Last month, we put out a whole entire episode on Ella Enchanted, a really fun fictional piece on a young heroine, theinderella type story right which you also might have remembered was a movie with anne hathaway zero out of ten on the movie but uh the books 10 out of 10 10 out of 10 so we just did that last month for patrons in the stranger

tier and above this month we will be covering uh a song of ice and fire episode for the other series that we read a song of ice Ice and Fire by George R.R. Martin, who recently celebrated a birthday. Have a good one, George. We're doing a POV chapter on Robb Stark, on a character that does not have a chapter in the books. Next month's episode for Stranger Tier and above will be something, something, something His Dark Materials-esque related. So stay tuned. We're really excited to bring something new. I'm having a really good time rereading His Dark Materials again. I took like a two week break with some life things. So now that I'm back, I'm like, wow, I really do still love this story again.

Yeah, it's still really good. And like these, these chapters are nice. Like they all go together pretty well. Follow off the last ones. Well, of course. I mean, it's a whole book that goes together. And along with bonus episodes, we do, of course, have a Discord for patrons $10 and up, Thunder tier and above. And yeah, people will just miss this, but we do a Brunch slash Happy Hour once a month. And we will let you all know when the one for October will be.

But, you know, I was thinking just as I look at this outline and where things are, I'm like, oh, man, we really missed an opportunity to call it our dust cord, huh? Oh, our dust cord. It gets a little dusty in there. It's not too late. Oh, gosh. Well, yeah yeah head over to the discord i don't know when we're gonna do brunch yet for october but it's gonna be spooky themed so that's exciting i'm very excited for that i'm sure that we will have some sort of spooky twist oh yes of course we always do we always have a fun twist moving on there's a lot of actually current events going on in the His Dark Materials fandom in terms of, you know, the production for season three is in fact underway.

Oh, yeah, it's very underway. And I mean, I think they're honestly approaching kind of the end of production. They're in the last leg. I heard the last thing I heard was that a lot of principal characters like Asriel, Lyra, Will, etc. are on scene right now in Spain filming for like 12 weeks. So to me, that's kind of actually similar to where we're coming up to in the book, right? Of the war scenes and them starting to be close together and some stuff happening. So I think we're nearing the third part of the book for them. Yeah, and also we got some news on the casting of a couple of characters that are going to be very prominent in these chapters. In fact, they are the title of some of these chapters.

Yeah. Actually, only one of them is in the title of these chapters. Whatever. Whatever. Yeah, so this is interesting. They cast some of the Galavespians this week. Sean Clifford is playing Agent Salmachia. You might know her from Fleabag.

She's Fleabag's sister, Claire. Yes, and to quote our friend Candid, who joined us for the last episode of season two, Candid exclaimed, ah yes, more of the Fleabag cinematic universe. exclaimed, ah yes, more of the Fleabag cinematic universe because of course John Perry is played by Hot Priest in Fleabag might be replayed right here soon

I don't know yeah and then also his demon was voiced by Fleabag herself yeah Fleabag herself Phoebe Phoebe Waller-Bridgerton. God damn it.

I'm sorry, I confuse all these Phoebes. Phoebe Waller-Bridgerton. It's so hard. You can't just have a Phoebe Waller-Bridgerton and a Phoebe Bridgers. And a Phoebe Waller-Bridgerton. Oh my god. We have to stop the number of artistic white women of phoebe waller bridgerton oh my god we have to stop uh stop expanding the phoebe bridge

white women named phoebe with some sort of bridge some sort of connecting apparatus in their names well not to burn that bridge but oh they did cast someone else not just just Phoebe Waller-Bridgerton's sister. Jonathan Aris, which I actually, I have seen this guy in a couple things. He was Anderson on Sherlock, the one with Benedict Cucumberpatch and what's-his-face, the other guy. You know, Sherlock. And then Stephen Moffat's Sherlock. And he was also in The End of the Fucking World. So he's going to be a fun casting.

But he's playing Commander Broke. Interesting. And so here's my question. Yeah, there's no Chevalier Tialis. Maybe there is, but it's not announced yet. But he's, like, the first one we really see. Yeah. I don't know.

So are you collapsing? Are you Tony Macario-sing? Oh my God. Chevalier Tialis? That's kind of weird though, because I guess they haven't really, with the exception of, yeah,

that, that example that you brought up, they haven't really collapsed characters. This one I think is a little less, I mean, Lord Roke doesn't have that big of a role it's fine yeah well that's what my that's why i kind of am surprised it makes sense like so this is all speculation but if they are especially with what we're learning here in these three episodes we get a lot of or three chapters we get a lot of

back and forth in these chapters of asriel's domain and the gallivespians out getting the kids and what's going on communication wise with the lodestone resonator between the gallivespians and the the texting that we're going to talk about go on the dropping into the dms of the gallivespians and you're in her dms i'm on her dragonfly. We are not the same. But really, like, I'm out here hatching my own. Really, though, like, I can see it does make logistical sense of, like, fine, one Galavespian to deal with the kids and one on Asriel's side for communication purposes, because that's how the lodestone resonator works. You don't need to but i do think that like the pro is they might be able to really expand selmakia maybe like maybe

there's a bigger expansion for her of taking on the full role if he is cut now that said again it's speculation so maybe he's not cut at all and we just don't know yet or it's a smaller role or i don't know i mean is it not already a very small role yeah um get the fuck out but get the fuck out eliana but i i i actually envisioned if they are collapsing the roles to be more of like lord rogues goes on the same journey that tialis does rather than staying with um lord asriel because i think that lord rogue doesn't do that much by lord asriel right well i guess he does some stuff right but not it's not i think as pertinent it's a little cut and dry yeah i think for for like anyone near asriel right we talked about this with king of gunway in the past couple episodes uh but also it's the same for roke i feel

like because they're connected to asriel they don't get full flesh outs you know they're just like asriel war dudes yeah and also i mean like as we see in this chapter there are other unnamed gala vespians who are there helping with texting so i guess like that's that's it it doesn't concern me as much as the collapsing of Tony Macarius and uh yeah Billy Costa because as we discussed during the the television coverage of season one when we wrote did those episodes there's there's I think really important thematic reasons to keep it as Tony Macarius versus Billy Costa and I still think that that was you know that was a misstep in removing that

part of the storyline but for this i i just like i mean tialy's rogue rogue doesn't have enough of i think an individual part that like drives home any specific point that like we can just have rogue and sienna instead of tialy's so but but what i do get what i do get from these castings especially with the portraits of these two actors that they release when they announce their casting is gallivespians not only are they small and have dragonflies they have very pronounced cheekbones all right that's my god they both they both have very sharp cheekbones they do yeah they're gonna look great i think that is part of it as we've kind of discussed some of that symbolism in the past

that like thumbelina fairy child kind of tiny person fairy tale shakespeare shit like that that feels like very very elven very otherworldly right yeah so i could see where that could be an advantage to their casting like i think that could be an advantage to their casting like i think that could be purposeful yeah galavaspians are hot they're like legolas they're like miniaturized legolas this is a what what is it macrophilia slash um you can you can get that in there macrophilia no there's like i i knew someone who was, like, into that, and, like, the giant woman thing and stuff

like that, so. Wow. Is that my problem? Is it because I'm so big? Maybe. I don't know. Yeah. And, like, they did weird stuff. Hello, this is my friend Eliana. She's a Galavaspian. Oh my god. I'm not. I'm actually not that short. I'm not very much shorter than you compared to

your other friends chloe especially in heels it's fun for me to pretend you are i was like practically your height in heels actually no almost well to move on to actual our little inner universe the universe we girls can exist in we got some great emails from a couple friends one of our friends ariana emailed us with something that i think we missed during the subtle knife i don't remember this uh lyra finds the exact sledge in the museum that she was kidnapped in because sir charles is supplying the museum with artifacts from their world we do to see that maybe it's obvious but i didn't catch it till now it makes sense because of his other collections i

just never put it together that he would have brought the sled over does that imply he was in charge of the kidnapping business that brought lyra to bull vanger there are like i mean i think he's associated with it all oh yeah i mean i think he's making money off of it he's got to be on coulter's payroll the way the show took it was really smart and made it feel that way. And maybe I'm just watching too much Succession, but he's definitely making a dime off of this. He's definitely, like, he might be involved in that and he might not. Probably an

investor in it to some extent, right? An investor, yeah. But it's definitely, I still see, like, Mrs. Colter's the big, like, mastermind behind everything. But the part about, like, the sledge, I actually, you know, Ariana's all like, oh, that's obvious and I didn't catch it until now. I'm like, I didn't catch it until you brought it up either.

I'm like, that makes perfect sense. That makes perfect sense that that's where that came from. So I, that's a great catch. There's a lot of familiarity in the way Coulter and him regard each other's businesses. And his trade is obviously in, quote-unquote, trade quote unquote trade, quote unquote, you know, not really trade, but in stealing artifacts and taking artifacts, sometimes by force from other worlds. she acquires things and how she acquires power uh i think she sees him stealing these petty objects from other worlds as kind of like demeaning and silly yeah and she thinks it's like he's a small man i mean we obviously see that's how she feels of him just through her actions of murdering him

right and i think there's part of her that's like so satisfied when she kills him because of that because it's just like a petty like a little man thing to do to just go to another world and steal sometimes by force artifacts and sell them off in this world and think you're such a fucking king you know like oh you're so fucking big agreed for you and i think that there though we do see Charles slash Carlo engage in murder, I almost wonder what you're saying about him being a small man. He wouldn't get his hands dirty with actually a blight on his character right that he's not interested in trafficking people just objects he's not brave enough for that one you gotta think bigger you gotta be more oppressive carlo what but that is that is her right because she does as we're gonna talk about soon in this episode that's how she sees people right like that's part of her like come to the dark side will speech.

She's like, you too could separate your heart from yourself and never have to fucking feel things because things hurt you. And that was her vision for Lyra. She's like, yeah, and it's going to be great. I'm going to bring children in. Lyra is going to convince children to come to you. That was her idea. Look at our big soulless family. Yeah, that was her goal.

her idea look at our big soulless family yeah that was that was her goal well i think she does evolve a bit in this chapter as we're gonna see and we did get more from this email from ariana and i actually really love some of the things ariana is about to bring up the amber spyglass is my favorite book i love it for lots of reasons but one thing has always bugged me besides will carving up yorick's soul which yes totally breaks canon yeah thank god agreed i thought i was crazy like that is his soul anyways rude there's a logical inconsistency with the multiverse and how the knife can't be duplicated indefinitely by world splitting as a result of possibility how can fate exist if all possibilities come to pass somewhere?

Why would it matter if one makes a certain choice if other choices happen elsewhere? That's not free will, it's just everything coming to pass. I had an amazing logic teacher in high school, and we used to discuss this endlessly. The conclusion I've slowly leaned toward is that something happened at least 300 years ago in the story, possibly as a result of the knife's creation. That would have caused worlds to stop replicating. Otherwise, there would be multiple subtle knives, and the decision that eventually happens with the knife would be undercut by other knives wreaking havoc on the multiverse. I think any author who gets into prophecy as a way of elevating their main characters has to be very careful with this. Also, a question, how do worlds replicate?

has to be very careful with this. Also, a question, how do worlds replicate? It's never described and I just picture it like self-defining. I really liked this part of the email and it prompted me to think more deeply about some of the things that were told in the story. And actually, I had some questions that were similar, but not regarding the knife, but regarding Lyra and Will and multiples of them, right?

Because that is in fact brought up. But to start off with the last question of worlds replicating and if it's like cells dividing, I will say that I think in quantum physics, the division of worlds from multiple outcomes or like states existing or like certain atomic, subatomic particles, et cetera,

it's actually described as branching. So if you think of it more like a tree right and realities or timelines branching off into multiple new ones and you see that visual actually come up a lot in sci-fi and fantasy uh the examples that for me come to mind right away are like maybe steins gate um and maybe one of the most recent popular iterations that you all might be familiar with is from the loki series and i've actually seen other interpretations of that though in sci-fi and fantasy such as uh you know lakes right time like pouring off into different lakes or rivers um or sometimes even bubbles doctor who

oh is that where it is that that might be one of them yeah bubbles there's another one there's a bunch of them there's a bunch of different ways that authors come to this because you know as as ariana brought up with prophecy being like difficult than this i mean a lot of them are more interested in the idea the art of it than they are necessarily you know in having it all hold together but yeah the bubble one is also a little different though like bubbling up in that visual from there's there's other different kinds of multiverse theories not just parallel universes ones on the idea of expanding universes right that universes never actually touch because they are like bubbles constantly uh constantly growing as opposed to how his dark materials has the worlds

overlaying one another but um and there are also other sci-fi and fantasy books where it's more of multiple pasts and one reality verse and one final future but anyways um i will say you know while i'm going off on this uh because it's fun uh some universes they do fail and die so there are not necessarily always like constantly just a growing number. A lot of them probably do. Because some of them collapse in on themselves because of the kinds of physical rules of physics that they have don't work. And I think another series that explores the idea of how universes die, granted it's not done so I don't know how else it will go, granted it's not done so i don't know how else it will go is nk jemisin's the city we became touches on this concept a little and might build on it in subsequent books but i'm not sure

and also speaking of things i'm not sure about it if i'm not mistaken i think that the dark material podcast the one with ian and amy they do dive into more of the physics of the series of his dark materials so definitely go check them. They probably have a better mind for all of that. But coming back to the question of the knife, I actually have been wondering the same thing regarding, like, why this Lyra or this Will versus all the other ones, because they brought up before there are probably multiple Lyras and Wills. So how come there are other Lyras and Wills that were not chosen, right? they just not born like why was this the chosen child like especially at that point in time and the story asserts that there are yeah multiple of them like this will in this universe is doing this thing probably and though there are many different outcomes in universes i'm kind of thinking of it like

perhaps the reason there's only one knife is maybe there were several different outcomes right but only one one universe had all of the things all the factors necessary of all these different decisions like and effects that led up to it and several different universes because maybe it didn't have the right conditions maybe this butterfly didn't beat its wings in this place at that time or whatever um the knife just never came to fruition so only one set of circumstances allowed for its creation and perhaps that's the case for lyra and will like maybe in one universe lyra i mean maybe she's never born maybe lord asriel pulls out, alright um maybe in another universe triumphantly yeah, Mrs. Coulter

yeah, in another yeah, took the pill, right or in another universe, Lyra maybe she does go on this journey to the north but, you know, she gets captured, never makes it all the way there, or she dies, there was danger in that journey or like the was severed right

or in other universes maybe will's home life gets discovered and he gets taken away from that home so he never goes through this set of circumstances or he never finds that window there right because it's not in the right universe for there to be a window there's a lot of delicate balances but i think the idea of like the knife like and that playing into suddenly the universe is ceasing to replicate it is really interesting especially when you bring up the idea of free will and fate because as as ariana said like fate is impossible then in this concept of a multiverse and that's that's true and i think that's what the authority hopes to eliminate, hopes to eliminate free will, because and then they talk about Lyra and Will leading to the end of destiny, which is, you know, another word for fate. And so getting rid of free will and choice stops the sprouting of new universes, because then no new outcomes can be made. There are no choices, there's only one. no new outcomes can be made there are no choices there's only one and so ultimately free will becomes this really beautiful thing not just in terms of self-determination but also that it is

about freedom creativity uh creation in and of itself and those infinite like universe levels on not just like and the infinity not just universal levels, but also really on that small and spiritual level and shows us the connection between those two concepts. I love how you put this about creation and creating things because not to get like hashtag too deep about it like one does. Let's do it. We're 14 and we're deep. Welcome aboard. Just like me when I read these. We're philosophy podcasters now no i mean uh

creation and art and creativity that's the only way that like we thrive yeah right like when when you're feeling like caged as a human being independence and creativity is like two ingredients you can pour on yourself to to give yourself freedom again or make yourself feel free. So I think that's like really special. And I think the alethiometer kind of is an instrument in that for us, right? To see Lyra exercise her fates and her wills and her own, like creating her own destiny in the end. And I think to the extent that like these thoughts and what Ariana sent us in this email, just some ideas of these other universes. I'm a huge Doctor Who fan.

I feel like there's a lot in Doctor Who. No spoilers that like if you feel like getting in there and digging in there to the 60 years of fun and sadness and rage. As far as time travel and as like creating other universes oftentimes like the doctor's companions do incredible things just these normal ass human beings they do these incredible things of like creating alternate worlds or timelines even when there are infinite hard points in time that cannot be changed that the doctor himself and doctor who always says oh you can't fuck with a a still point in time like that's already written the ink's dry you can't do it and like meeting your fate with grace versus what we see in these three chapters are will and

lyra really decide that yes they can be the fated children the prophesied children but they also can decide how they meet their faith and like the terms around their fate and they make that abundantly clear will especially in these chapters takes charge of that and he's like he you know he won't let he and lyra's names be and their fates be dishonored in that way and i love watching that climb i love seeing that climb and i think like the idea of these universes and these different places is so great how pullman taps into it but i love that he actually takes the stories of these children and like the passion and kind of like just the idea of growing up and

the pain of growing up and he actually transforms that here instead of the big picture of the universes you know so at the end of the day if I don't understand personally because I don't all the time what dictates these new universes of how they're cut and open and how they're found at least will and lyra and their young courtship will sustain me doesn't sustain you or does it kill you on the inside just a little oh no i'm fucking dying but let's get into the story so we can die together oh my god why are we dying together what the fuck is going on okay um so yes the amber spyglass chapter 11 the dragonflies chapter 11 opens with a poem from william blake there's a little bit of going on two out of three of these have some so buckle up blake fuck off uh a truth that's told with bad intent beats all the lies you can invent this is auguries of innocence lines 53 to 58 from the notebook that's now known as the pickering

manuscript so it was probably written very early 1800s but was published in the mid-1800s, probably 50s, 60s. This is really classic William Blake. We know Pullman loves him. Obviously, I mean, Milton and Blake are two of the biggest influences of the story, but Auguries of Innocence is kind of this collection of conflicting situations in poetry, oftentimes related to prophetic judgment, ding, ding, ding. And it uses a lot of these same tensions leveraged against themselves that we've talked about before in his poems of experience and innocence. Lots of childlike situations being contrasted with chaotic adult experiences all within one poem, paradoxes of what it means to be a kid trapped within these confines of moving and transitioning into adulthood.

A man's innocence being forgotten when he graduates from his childhood. You know, these kind of ideas are really prevalent, which seems really, really important for Will's plot right now, who's kind of our driving force for these three chapters. And all of this is underlined at the same time with Blake's usual anger at corruption from the elite in his society, there's a quote that kind of brings that to mind in the poem pretty close to this line, which is, every wolf's and lion howl raises from hell a human soul. I think my favorite part of Auguries of Innocence, though, in context to these next chapters, the dragonflies and the break and Tialis and Salmachia is probably this verse.

The caterpillar on the leaf repeats to thee thy mother's grief. Kill not the moth nor butterfly for the last judgment draweth nigh. There's so much thematically that comes out in these chapters, right? We'll later talk about the dragonflies eating moths. But here specifically, there's a certain duality in repeats to thee thy mother's grief, which relates not only to Coulter, which we're going to talk about Coulter's grief as a mother representing, you know, her entire relationship with Lyra and her toxic treatment of how she loves her daughter, as well as the mother is Eve, the mother is mother nature, right, as Lyra, who has a destiny to fulfill and of course there's that line that the last judgment draweth nigh and especially with some of the the war themes we

have coming on in these chapters and i'm not going to say it out loud because i know you have to catch up the chapters just in case you're not there yet but there might be war in the future even uh from chapters 11 through 13 so that last judgment draweth nigh in the poem feels really strong here yeah that's a great find within this i connect so well to as you said everything that's going on in these chapters but also just in general and yeah i think that there's a lot i'm excited to dig into some of what you were talking about with this mother's grief and yeah, I mean, the dragonflies

fuck up. Alright, they kill a bunch of moths and so does Pan. It's actually not that big of a deal, but I wanted to say it anyway and I'm just trying to figure out also how, you know, how howl used to be pronounced that they had it rhyme with soul.

Is it pronounced like howl? Howl. Howl. Every wolf's... Howl! Every wolf's name is howl. I don't know. Anyways, so,

to get us to all these points that Chloe is talking about, let's start with Ama climbing the path to the cave. She's wondering how she will ever reach the sleeping girl again. She leaves food at the spot that the woman designated her to but doesn't go straight home she climbs past the cave through the rhododendrons to play this game she likes to do with her demon they climb past whirlpools and through a spectrum tinted spray until both she and her demon are beaded over with mist and kulong is in a squirrel form and the goal of the game is you get to the top without wiping your eyes uh despite the temptations

that when you look out through your like eyelids and everything you see like a bazillion rainbows it's actually a very fun sounding game it sounds very cute it's so cute it's so innocent and it's like it's very obviously a metaphor you know the whole game's a metaphor and it reminds me a lot about so catholic raised as we've talked about i went through all of catechism right um i stopped after confirmation i want to say so i i mean my right of marriage was not foreseen in catholic circumstances eliana was there. She knows. I don't know if the traveling officiant in Hocking Hills, Ohio counts as a sacrament, you know. every Sunday. You know, actually, it was Wednesdays, I think a lot of the time because they changed it during the school year. But they gave us a lot of great propaganda about, you know, abstinence before marriage, and the good times. And so the metaphor reminds me so

much of the propaganda of abstinence before marriage that they kind of like, drowned us with in catechism. And there's the symbolism of purity, like in all terms, it is a really, it's beautiful how Pullman writes it that like the mist, through the mist, she can see the rainbow light and like all the goodness. And that symbolism of purity is being invoked. I mean, you close your eyes and imagine the scene and the color that comes to mind is what stained glass, right? And the mist is representing what you can't see, which is like God's light or whatever, and that you have to have faith in order to see it and not be afraid. And specifically in two verses, there are two phrases that I think like

came to mind immediately for me, which were Timothy 2.22, flee also youthful lusts, but pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace with those who call on the lord out of a pure heart and matthew 5 8 god blesses those people whose hearts are pure they will see him i think that that's very interesting because you know there's a lot of like interesting conflicting things going on here right with um that idea of innocence but also that innocence isn't great, right? Yeah. About the mist, and then finally breaking it and looking through it. Because I guess the game ends, right, with you having to look

through the mist and really see it for what it is. And ironically, though, I was thinking of the metaphor but more actually innocently. Even more innocently, if you will. Innocently. A lot for metaphors. Besides some... oh my god, besides some of it being a little reminiscent of dust, right,

like things settling on you. And it also reminds me a little bit of the first book with the imagery of finding the rainbows at the top, right? It reminds me a little of the roarer all the way up at the top, right? It reminds me a little of the roarer all the way up at the top at the north because of all, I mean, rainbows are full of colors and the aurora is full of colors, right? Kind of like, I guess the end of the first book,

it kind of takes place a little bit at the top of a mountain and then crossing it. And of course, you know, having to trust your soul in order to guide you through that mist or like the rainbows uh the way that ama is letting kulong guide her so yeah i think faith is is really like it's so is such like a passage about faith yeah and i also kind of love as we're gonna have a lot of ama love this chapter chapter, I'm pretty sure. She's the best. I fucking love Amma.

This is the end, you know, like we have to part with her soon. But she, I think she's very innocent and has a pure heart. Like if this was a fairy tale, Coulter would have like stolen her heart when she came to give them food. You know, like Coulter would have like snatched her heart out and said, ha ha, and eaten it or some shit. Yeah. like snatched her heart out and said haha and eaten it or some shit um so her playing this game and her being the very sign of purity and divinity is it foreshadowing we don't know what that means but like that she's like very pure and divine and like her actions and her big heart and wanting to help lyra and help will and defeat the evil witch that's in the cave i think that's very

prominent here too well she becomes the protagonist of the fairy tale for a little bit for a few of those chapters and then you know thankfully as you said she does leave but only because of good reasons right she at the end is like peace out she doesn't even say bye she's just like i'm peacing out she's like i survived the story i live a happy life there's no notes on what happens to me so you all can project well she's like everyone's everyone's fighting and there's fires and she's like i'm gonna go home fuck this i hope she's eating some of that good food that she brought coulter you know what i mean right oh that bread god well okay so in the game they finally get to the top they play their game

she expects kulang her demon to check in on her and make sure she's not cheating but he actually has stopped in awe and she stops too and falls still because an immense gigantic ivory white bear is staring up at her i can't help but smile at this uh she hears a boy's voice asking who's that to the bear and a fierce looking boy with a jutting jaw and frowning eyes and bold eyebrows and also a weird bird-shaped demon question mark next to him the bird flies to kool-aid and they speak briefly as demons usually do among each other and she realizes they're friends not foes ama scrambles beside the waterfall and greets them i i had to reread some of that because I was like, what are they saying about this demon? Then I realized, oh yes, of course, it's Balthamos.

And I think it's interesting that Amma realizes right away, like, something's weird about that demon. Not like, oh, that's a weird looking bird shape. But the same way that the story tells us that you can tell demons easily from normal animals or normal animals would see a person, right? If they saw the demon so will then introduces himself and ama introduces herself and now ama feels less feels like she's less afraid of the bear than the boy which is interesting and then she notes uh the boy's wounded fingers and feels dizzy and kulong and will's demon flood around in the air together butterfly form and man i as you said like ama's a star now i just would love a follow-up story on

what happens to ama in general right she seems also very spiritually attuned in the same way that we saw like john perry or something being so from her desire to help and heal people and and that she goes to a spiritual teacher but also that she notes will's fingers very quickly and has this very physical reaction to it which kind of like shows or maybe like she knows that they're not normal mortal wounds yeah we're gonna see her do some other really kind of spiritual actions later but it's obvious especially in her upbringing right like she was raised differently than will or lyra was in the terms of witchcraft lyra's very by the book will is very street smarts and she is very like she her her father obviously in the town healer

they've all kind of raised her to believe in different things and i kind of really love that i know pullman likes to mix the the real with the not real i think that's some some of his favorite stuff is like bringing education to that precipice of magic just from his own teaching background but i would really like to know more about ama's village and their experience with demons and maybe their experience in like the search for dust by the Magisterium, right? The resource wars going on here for the other worlds and what happens there. Especially because they're kind of probably like, what the fuck is going on at the mountain right now?

They probably look up and they're like, why are there zeppelins and fires? In, like, a moment. And, I mean, you can only imagine that the soldiers would also probably have taken over their area in town at this point and it's not fun obviously no one would call war fun but like it would just be a different perspective to tell it from yeah she's got a very intuitive sense of these things and i mean of course ama learns what they seek right which is a cave of the girl who is asleep and ama tells them oh I know where they keep this girl, and that this woman, she says that she's

her mother, but she's keeping her asleep, and she's like, I don't believe her, though, because Ama doesn't understand how a mother could be so cruel. And then she says that she has herbs to wake the girl, but she hasn't been able to get to her yet. And then after Balthamos translates all this for Will and Yorick,

for Will, Will calls for Yorick, for Will, Will calls for Yorick and tells him to stay here while they go look out and find Lyra. And I now just have this idea of Balthamos as C-3PO, knowing all these different languages. And it's just a thought. It's a thought that I have. I kind of love that. I do. I have a new Balthamos and Baruch take that I think I'm going to bring up later for you. I'm really hyped. I thought about it on my week off. You know, I had a little mini vacation. This episode's coming to you a little late. I'm sorry. But you

know, my wife afforded me that. She let me have this thing that I desired. So I thought about you guys, though. I thought about Baruch. I thought about Balthamos. I thought about you guys though i thought about baruch i thought about balthamos i thought about eliana so get ready get excited coming to you in like 20 30 okay so balthamos as c-3po let's let's wheel get those joints all greased up with some wd-40 real quick yep uh they all go with him they clamber down rocks to get to the slope and the sunlight follows them they spy mrs coulter from behind a rock and it looks like she's shaking a really thick branch of leaves and then they're like oh no she's sweeping the floor my how the fashionable have fallen uh will notices she looks so domestic her hair is tied up her sleeves are rolled up but domestic coulter is ruined for him when a flash of gold appears. Yes, the vicious monkey comes to her side.

I don't know what that was. Was that Bullwinkle? Anyway, last episode, we talked about Lyra in terms of like sleeping beauty or even Snow White in some aspects, right? I see a lot more of that with Coulter right now with the prophecy of the fairest of them all. And she's the evil witch, you know, poisoned apples, all that fun stuff. But I kind of realized, like, Lyra also has that princess in a tower. If you listen to our Song of Ice and Fire episodes, you'll be more than familiar with that idea.

Kind of mythos, that Rapunzel mythos, right? The stolen baby, Eve's apple instead of the cabbage for once, right? She's got the whole fruit in her destiny thing and you know in the original story rapunzel was locked away for her beauty by her father which she was kind of locked away in jordan i guess but here coulter has locked her up for her fate right like total rapunzel style gotta keep the princess in the tower the king's son comes to save rapunzel and he has to walk a dangerous blinded journey at one point to get back to her yada yada yeah uh this is in the og fairy tale like he falls down

from her because her hair gets cut by her witch mother or her witch slash mother whichever you want to go with and he ends up like barbing his eyes on thorns and he's like exiled to the desert it's all very dramatic and he's blind wheniled to the desert. It's all very dramatic. And he's blind. And when he finally stumbles his way back to Rapunzel and their two children that they had, apparently, she's like living in the desert in wretched conditions. He like gets to her and her tears go into his eyes and cure his blindness and all this shit. I don't know. Interesting parallels.

There could be something there is all I'm saying. And there's like a few musical numbers like Mother Knows Best. I don't know. Interesting parallels. There could be something there, is all I'm saying. And just like a few musical numbers, like, Mother Knows Best. I don't know actually the rest of the words, I only know that. Mother Knows Best. What if the Historic Materials television show were a musical instead? Anyway.

I hope they do a musical episode at this point. I know that's silly, but you know what, The magicians did it. The magicians did it. Buffy did it. The best shows did it and they survived. Yeah. Crazy Ex-Girlfriend.

All the episodes are musicals. Exactly. So, yes, absolutely regarding these fairy tales, very much so. fairy tales very much so and ama back to her fairy tale for a second urgently whispers to them that she fears the monkey and tells them that the monkey likes to tear up bats and will asks well have you seen any soldiers and she's like she hasn't seen any but she wasn't really sure because there are always ghosts in the mountains everyone knew that but she had heard talk of strange frightening men at night in the mountainside it's like but maybe it has nothing to do with the woman and will thinks that if coulter won't leave the cave or lyra then he is going to have to pay a

house call he asks ama about the drug that she plans to administer to the sleeping lyra and ama explains its purpose and then he asks when she brings the next round of food half an hour before sunset to like meet him then with the medicine will meanwhile is very anxious he has bought almost stay close to him and keep an eye on the monkey and as they walk toward the cave the monkey is already there watching i'd be pretty freaked out um because that monkey is kind of terrifying yeah just saying the monkey says something to the cave which is of course presumably a coulter who waits for will as he approaches the cave she's reading calmly in a canvas chair again the very spirit of fashion week khaki traveler clothes peak of high fashion a spray of red

blossoms pinned to her shirt front she welcomes him in an intoxicating voice which he's like for a second he's like oh shit this isn't my girlfriend's evil mom it's just a hot chick but no it is his girlfriend's evil mom he's like where's ly? I want to see her. She says she's safe and takes him to see her. Will remembers his last fight with this hateful monkey, and he's weary to turn his back to it, but Balthamos keeps watch while Will steps closely in the cave to go find his sleeping girlfriend. He's amazed at how gentle Lyra looks, so mild, not fiery at all for once, with Pan burrowing into her neck. He lifts away her hair kneels down the very prince about to kiss his princess awake he feels her face it's hot will

sees the monkey ready to spring into action on him ready to go ham out of the corner of his eye but coulter shakes her head at him and the monkey relaxes he questions her and he's like why are you keeping her here and she's like why don't you keeping her here? And she's like, why don't you sit down, Will? This is a lot of trauma to take in. She sits down in the moss-covered rocks at the entrance of the cave. And he kind of thinks, wow, she sounds almost sad, almost kind. But his mistrust only deepens, thinking it's all a veiled threat. All of it deceitful.

And then we have this line that I really love, but I also hate it. I love it because it's all a veiled threat, all of it deceitful. And then we have this line that I really love, but I also hate it. I love it because it's really good. It's such a fantastic, I think, encapsulation of what's going on here, but also I just hate it for Will because he is my poor child and has he not been through enough? No, that's the joy of stories. He had successfully deceived every teacher, police officer every social worker and every neighbor who had ever taken an interest in him and his home he'd been preparing for this all his life right he thought i can deal with you so in this moment will needs her to think that he's harmless and i really do love the confidence that he brings to

knowing that he can fool mrs coulter on this because the very painful fact is that will has deceived all these other adults and these are adults who like specifically are supposed to care about him and his well-being so if he can fool these people who actually give a shit who care and who are invested and and that's harder because it'll give him guilt to do so and because they want to pay attention to him if he's done all that just to protect his mother and to keep going through everything he's been through and and hiding like the mess of his home life where he's a parentified child then i mean fooling someone who actually does pose a threat to him that he cares nothing

for and because they've hurt his friend that's nothing that's nothing for will yeah protecting lyra is like second nature at this point for him it does feel that way like he's doing what has to be done and like he's always done like you said he's always had to make these hard decisions and that shows in this chapter and the next chapter really hard and coulter is really a great challenge for this uh i really love the way he's written her here she is absolutely you know when like we get those moments with her where lyra can feel her rage and it's like almost metallic i can taste that just reading these because she is just laying it on right yeah she she and will are playing a big game of cat and mouse and

she offers him a drink from kind of a weird brownish dry fruit she drinks some herself finally she's like oh so how did you arrive uh do you have lyra's alethiometer what about that magic knife i heard about from my friend charles you know, Sir Carlo. I love this. This is like something that really anchors his ploys comes back here, right? Like she is trying to put all of her culture, charm and trickery onto this. All of her Marisa, sorry, I should say charm and trickery. And it shows and he anchors himself because people have always wanted magical instruments, not just magical instruments, but people have always wanted things from him and from lyra right and she brings this up in record

time how's your magic knife that you happen to have recently acquired that i don't need or anything i'm just saying it now you know uh she doesn't hide her want for desire for magical protection she doesn't hide that and it's sad it is sad because like in her deranged way she is being honest for once right she does need that protection but she showed her hand far too early which shows that she's totally desperate she yeah absolutely as you said she's desperate and for once i mean she i i really think she's telling the truth in a lot of this, and I'll talk about this in a bit, but, you know, you brought up that she offers him, like, this weird brownish fruit, and I'm like, first of all, hospitable, but also inhospitable? Anyways. Has meaning. meaning well that and i'm like weird host uh strange place to be and that that rotten dried fruit right she also consumed some of it herself to to show that it's safe which i'm also like i

have read and watched the princess bride so i know better but anyway um the whole exchange has very uh underworld and like persephone being offered the pomegranate by Hades vibes, but also, of course, the whole temptation with the whole fruit thing that a lot of this story is based around, right? The snake, the serpent in the Garden of Eden, and offering that knowledge. We see it happen a couple of times throughout the story, but Will, you know, it doesn't really work for him here. It's not yet, not not now and certainly not with her

yeah i actually uh i really like the idea of that the hades vibes underworld vibes for no reason or anything there's no reason why i could really appreciate the underworld vibes coming to this in the next couple chapters but and i think you're going to go deeper into this later but it's kind of interesting because the knowledge that she's actually offering him in that knowledgeable fruit is rotten right yeah we know coulter is wrong her worldview and how she treats the world because of how the world treated her that's not right and the way that she treats lyra is wrong yes will could take this path right like he could straight up accept her boon right now take what she's offering in her hand and live a half-stunted life like coulter has like defending that lifestyle in the state of coulter's heart and being

denying rejecting love weaponizing love instead giving into that animalistic angry side that he definitely has just like coulter has that selfish side is there it's definitely within him and we see him especially in these three chapters kind of projecting that anger outwards as lyra is helpless right and he just wants to protect them they're both kind of helpless as we get to the knife breaking and coulter has that similar desperation you can see the parallel lines being drawn between their characters and why here as we move on with Will and he chooses differently what that means absolutely because I mean there's so much being offered here right to

to an extent there's also I think ironically right you were talking about innocence before. There's innocence being offered here too, right, in the fruit, not just the temptation to go beyond it, but stay here, never move beyond it, and live out that fantasy of childhood. And it's a difficult choice for him, right? It's tempting, but, you, but he doesn't give in. He refuses to show her the knife and then asks why she's keeping Lyra here in this state.

And she says it's to protect Lyra from danger and dispels the truth for perhaps the first time in her life. She tells her own story of loving and leaving her baby daughter who's taken away and raised by strangers. And then she says that she is trying to save her for the third time from the dangers that surround her by hiding her from the church but she's a little worried because if will found them thus this easily then the church will definitely find them even more so which is true that's what the next few chapters are about

and she says that they hate lyra because of what lyra can do or what she will do and this is some minority report shit here and then mrs coulter asks for will's friendship she's saying that she's alone and the forces of the world are tracking them down and she asks what he wants and he asks he doesn't give an answer to that, right? Because he's slick. He's better than that. Smarter than that. He asks and said, why Mrs. Coulter is keeping Lyra asleep? And she says, well, Lyra would run away were she awake and that she wouldn't last even five days out there with the magisterium on her tail.

I'm like, I don't actually know about that. But anyways. I mean, she literally has before. I know, right? She might do better had you not fucked it up with your mommy shit Mrs. Coulter she might have actually gotten away now that you say it you were a real misstep anyways

I agree I agree I'm like I think Lyra would have been fine but you know I do have to wheel in the sympathy because so Coulter responds to Will about her feelings on Lyra and this is like I want to first thank the Academy for giving me the opportunity to perform this

monologue I feel like it's all been working up to this moment in my entire career as a voice actor on Girls Gone Canon so thank you all those John voice moments were leading up to this McQueen I don't want to there isn. I don't want to.

There isn't I don't want it in this chapter somewhere. Well, get ready because I do. Oh my god. She doesn't trust me. She hates me, Will. You must know that. She despises me. I, well, I don't know how to say it.

I love her so much. I've given up everything I had. A great career, great happiness, position, wealth, everything, to come to this cave in the mountains and live on dry bread and sour fruit just so I can keep my daughter alive. And if to do that, I have to keep her asleep, then so be it. But I must keep her alive. Wouldn't your mother do as much for you? Will felt a jolt of shock and rage that Mrs. Coulter had dared to bring his own mother in to support her argument. Then, that first shock was complicated by the thought his mother, after all, had not protected him. He had had to protect her did mrs coulter love lyra

more than elaine perry loved him but that was unfair his mother wasn't well poor fucking will we're gonna say this a couple times i think this chapter but fucking poor will and and again coulter's desperate but she's also intuitive she's intuitive enough to to find these digs these subtle digs to stay on top in the conversation and it's obvious she's really getting her jollies off like verbally abusing this young boy right like she digs her nails in on purpose here she's hoping to weaken him to her resolve we get him to help lyra help quote-unquote uh but but she's still drugging and poisoning her daughter right and taking away her hoping to weaken him to her resolve. We get him to help Lyra help, quote unquote, but she's still drugging and poisoning her daughter, right?

And taking away her free will. And while it's a wrongful act of devotion, like it is an act of devotion, but completely wrong and horrible. The action itself is so hard. And Will, in this moment of pain and doubt, like it's so awful. It's like, for me personally, the reason why I don't think I should have children, I have autoimmune issues, I have health issues,

I could pass on to them. And I don't think I could give them like the best life. Right. And that shouldn't mean someone should give that up if they want to have children, right? Like that's something that you would fight through if that's what you wanted. But this feeling of pain he's feeling like that right there for me as someone conscious of my decision makes me not want to inflict that on him and having Coulter kind of be like well you do whatever you could in this position Will you don't understand knowing full well that this boy probably has had a hard life and understands that pain and that connection with his mother more than other things, you know, like he just met and lost his dad and still cares more and worries more for his mother in this moment.

And I just think it's so poignant, the pain he's feeling in this moment and what she's trying to use against him is so mean. It's mean. It's a really hurtful scene, as you pointed out. And like, it's a difficulty that I think, you know, a lot of people who are parents have to go through in this moment. And also people who, I mean, any of us, right? As we wrestle with what it means to have had parents, how our parents, like, raised us, etc. And it's fucked up that she brings up Elaine.

And, as you said, like really really digs her nails in there and that Will sees it and I kind of wonder if she knows or if she doesn't know right but either way like she assumes that Will came from someone I mean that is his like

that's her superpower right like being able to like find and exploit those weaknesses through kind of her charisma. I mean, that heartless charisma she has, it is. Digging her nails in is a superpower. That manipulation, right? And then to throw Will off balance there. While Will does it with force, she does it emotionally.

Like, just as hurtful. Yeah. And as you said, right, and as it points out like that will's mother didn't protect him and couldn't maybe really protect him and that he had had to do that for her and the complications that come with that right versus how mrs coulter has done it she hasn't really protected lyra at all right um in fact she's been one of the people that lyra has needed to be protected from as and that's kind of what's happening in this scene, literally in this moment. Lara must also be protected from Mrs. Coulter.

But I think that's the complicating thing when it comes to love. And we say this, we've said it before, and we continue to say it. I'm not here to excuse parental abuse, but it is different, I think. Or maybe not different, but there is that complexity around as you said that toxicity and to an extent also like ability right like

Elaine did it to the best of her ability I don't know that Mrs. Coulter has cared for Lyra to the best of her ability for a lot of her life yeah but she wasn't always afforded the opportunity to when she still had a heart to do so right that's true and later on i mean yeah maybe she was like i'm making a good career in life for my daughter by uh teaching her to traffic other children that is uh

hey it's a family business it's a family murdering kids business but you know i i think it's it's a family business. It's a family business. Murdering kids. But, you know, I think it's a very powerful scene, not just because of the effect it has on Will, but I think, like, a lot of people have had these issues, right, with their parents and finding that their parents have cared for them imperfectly, perhaps even toxically, like not every single person, but a lot of people have. And so there's this really great realism to this moment of the ways that parents talk about and perhaps justify the harm that they do. And on top of that, you have a little sprinkle of that teenage rebellion drama, right? Where she's like, of course, Lyra's not going to listen to me. But it's turned up to 11 for more drama

because it is a story for the plot, for storytelling. And then also Mrs. Coulter brings in that whole idea of like what she's had to give up, right? A great career, happiness, position and wealth, really guilting it in there.

She does not give this lecture, interestingly, to Lyra. She gives it to Will as a justification, right? Of like, why shouldn't like, you know, she's done all this for her kids why can't her kids just stay here and do what she asked why can't they just you know help her out a little that that whole mother guilting thing am i talking from experience uh but i mean like and like i i think like i'm not a lot of a lot of people face that with their parents it's a big

thing especially amongst like the immigrant community and also their parents. It's a big thing, especially amongst the immigrant community. And also, there's a reason. It's a stereotype amongst both Asian communities and the Catholic community, too. But there's, I think, another dual side to it. And we've discussed this more in, I think, previous episodes. We don't need to dig into it too much. She's also talking about it very much from the perspective of mothers, right? And even in our society today, mothers are,

you know, their careers unfortunately, and their happiness, their position in wealth are jeopardized or placed at risk when they become mothers because people are like, why aren't you taking care of your kids or whatever? People don't always see careers and motherhood as a

coexistent. And then we also, also again this is something else we brought up a lot in previous episodes so we won't talk about it too much that Jungian shadow of the mother in regards to smothering Lyra and I think a little smattering we can talk about later of Freud sprinkled in for Will's side

but you know here we are in the cave with Mrs. Coulter keeping Lyra from the world, keeping her from growing up and gaining knowledge. Again, that Jungian shadow of the mother. But I think we also find that it is a bit of a...

to come back again to Plato's cave and that allegory. Because if she stays here, right? Like, besides how we talked about the cave in regards to the alethiometer before and the idea of and the world of ideas if Lyra stays here she will never leave the world

of shadows she'll be in the cave and the cave is sometimes in some maybe it's Freud I want to say it's Freud the cave is associated with the mother with womanhood in terms of, you know, the birthing canal, the womb,

also being the tomb, the mother from which we come and from which we return. So all of those things are here at play too with the symbolism. And Lyra must leave the womb, leave her mother, in order to enter the world of the real,

of ideas and to grow and get real knowledge versus this false knowledge that Mrs. Coulter is offering her, that she's offering Will. And the person who helps guide her out is, of course, Will. He's a little bit of a mini Virgil here, along with Ama. And first they go out into the world of the moon. So it's still nighttime. There's not quite full knowledge yet and nothing else.

And it's also not our real world yet. They have to go to this random ass other world where, again, there's not quite full knowledge yet and nothing else and it's also not our real world yet they have to go to to this random ass other world where again there's the moon and it's only later on that the sun rises and it casts light to true knowledge the true form of ideas and reveals things and also in that moment she's able to then under the light of the sun and truth and knowledge ask and find those answers from the lithiometer and of what to do i really love the way you brought it all to the like womb womb there it is yeah freud's real into that i think yeah i'm very glad you brought it right on back to the womb love the way you related this especially with like the idea of like how maternal this truly is for her. Like, and this is Coulter's like last womb stand. She's like, no, no one can take my daughter from me. Only I can take my daughter from me. You know,ista wolf which is like a modern retelling of medea and there's something so interesting that really peeks out at me during this which is like

she's monologuing colter is monologuing to will about all this shit that does not concern him that it's really all of her projections of being a mom right and like how no one's appreciated her being a mom this entire time and in this retelling of medea it's a modern novelization of medea christopher basically writes her oftentimes talking to her mother like are you happy mother like did you see the way that this thing happened from the prophecy mother like you've always said it would mother and it's written a lot in that kind of tone and that's how this is coming off like coulter is just like fuck youing middle fingering to the sky right now like yeah i did everything i did everything i was supposed to give and now here i am trying to protect my daughter and it's not enough apparently

uh she's losing her mind right now i'm gonna be real with you she's losing her mind but somehow finding her heart and maybe her conscience for once but like still obviously not there because again poisoning daughter um but i i love that you brought up medea because and bringing her into this because like medea mrs coulter exhibits this i think very again toxic form of motherhood, where Elaine Perry regressed, right? And she actually kind of was the child versus acting as the mother. Mrs. Coulter has that same sort of feeling of entitlement to Lyra's body of like, I brought you into this world, and I can take you out, which is what Medea does with the children she and Jason has.

That part's fucked up. But at the same time, when I look at Medea's life, I'm also I'm not saying she was right to do that. But I'm also like, I'm mad for her. The first time I heard that myth, I was like, I'm mad for this woman. God damn it, Jason. Yeah, I mean, she does fucking everything for Jason. Asriel, Jason, Asriel. Oh my god. Yeah, she does.

I was so mad. I was like, what the fuck? You gotta read this. You do have to read this. I think you'd like was so i was so mad i was like what the fuck you gotta read this you do have to read this i think you'd like it uh it's by krista wolf and it came out 1998 and it's it's kind of like a little run-on like sometimes they're like it's just run-on sentences of medea yelling at the sky basically yeah like other times it's good understandably it's totally like cersei lannister in like POV form for a whole book. Like, it is.

And I do recommend it because it does bring Coulter to mind a lot in some of just the little places of agency that she tries to take back for herself. And here she's obviously exerting them over Will, who also does not have a lot of agency in this besides his magical knife that's about to break. Yeah. Also, God, talk about settling you know like she she flew away on like a dragon chariot or something and like that woman settled for jason's ass god sorry 10 year old me was so mad 10 year old me was so mad and i'm and i haven't gotten over it 20 years later. Maybe that's one of our books. Maybe you'll have to read it and that'll be one of our stories to tell. Anyway, so back to the story.

And Mrs. Coulter asks Will, all right, so what are you going to do now? And he says, well, you know, all I wanted to do is make sure she was safe. And now he can go to Lord Asriel like he was supposed to. And then he sees Marissa waver for a moment at the mention of Lord Asriel and she's also like very surprised she's like wait you're not gonna stand help that's what you're doing

she quickly masters her emotions and calmly says well yeah she had hoped he would help them and protect them with a knife and help them get away and he's like nope I'm gonna leave now and she holds out her hand giving a rueful smile as if to respect a co-chess player at the board and he finds himself you know just like almost liking mrs coulter he can tell that she's brave almost like a richer more complex lyra and

i'm like that's not fair all right that girl's like that's not fair well she is 13 and she hasn't she hasn't had time for her body to come in yet look i became much richer braver and complex like last month okay so give her a little time will we're not like fucking wine okay it's not like our personalities just age over time fuck off i mean they do age over time but it's not like overnight you know yeah jesus god boys in their puberty so 30 minutes later will gets to back to the camp and he tells yorick mrs coulter is lying right they after leaving her with her little chest thing they shake hands he was all like all right bye monkey bye coulter don't know what your looks between each other mean leaves the cave and he comes back he's like that bitch lied and good for him right like

you're still all right you're still all right will uh she'd lie even if it made things worse will says because that bitch loves to lie she actually does i do think that she does love to lie but you know i i think to come back to something that you're talking about earlier right like yeah i mean we know it's very clear especially as we see the story progress like she is not lying but it is easier to tell themselves that mrs culture is lying the same way that i was like well that must be a lie about her being a mother because it's simpler right it's easier for them to understand, the same way that Alma's like, well, that must be a lie about her being a mother, because it's simpler, right? It's easier for them to understand that the only way she could do these horrible

things is if she hated Lyra. But I think that's the point. The deeper, more terrible truth is that she's not lying, and that's why we have those lines from the beginning of the chapter of, a truth that's told with bad intent beats all the lies you can event

learn that lesson lyra um you can't she's asleep anyways the people that it's it's sad right the people who should love us and protect us still end up hurting us and i'm gonna plug one more nk jemisin book i've plugged nk jemisin a lot over the past few episodes not just on this but our other book series but this time the broken earth trilogy that's it that's the plug that's a good plug for this though it does pull back to the william blake poem like that is a truth told with bad intent beats all the lies you can invent is like so crucial to the series of like yeah coulter's pain and the lies that produce from her pain and like will and lyra wanting to give freedom and truth to the world and all of these forces battling each other man my poor broken family dude i know right you know i just want to fix them all will wonders if he can try to pulse the knife to get back to Lyra,

cutting through worlds, pull her into safety, and closing them behind him. But Balthamo speaks through this heroic vision, and he's like, I know why you're hesitating, Will. You were foolish to go to her. All you want now is to see the woman again. Yorick growls in agreement, and Will scowls at them. He's like, how could you take the same side over me? But he knows they're right.

He was captivated by her. All his thoughts referred to her. When he thought of Lyra, it was to wonder how like her mother she'd be when she grew up. If he thought of the church, it was to wonder how many of the priests and cardinals were under her spell. If he thought of his own dead father jesus will it was to wonder whether he would have detested her or admired her and if he thought of his own mother he felt his heart remiss man that's how she gets you you think you feel bad will wait till you read the collectors that bitch is haunting some people okay yeah she

is for sure and for what it's worth i think that john perry would have both detested her and admired her as lord asriel seems to but not in the same way as lord asriel seems to because apparently john perry was hashtag loyal and um i will say you know that you were talking about the spell right the haunting that she does it's the same spell she casts on all the other children, right? That she traffics to Bullfinger. But for Will, it's a little more than that, right? Like, obviously there's more going on here. It's a weird Freudian mishmash of, like, you know, his own mother Elaine.

And then Lyra. And also, you know, Fountains of Wayne is just, like, playing in the background. And on one hand, I'm like playing in the background and on one hand I'm like what the fuck bro can't think of Lyra's mom like that but on the other hand I kind of like I get it and I do appreciate how uncomfortable

this scene is in a way and that we're leaning into that and I mean sometimes sometimes life's weird and hormones are weird and I don't love it for him and lyra but also i'm just like i mean i think i mean are we doing this are we just gonna put it out there like that will is horny a little a little i mean he's horny for marisa dude we read it we just read the passages out loud like that's why i said fountains of wane is playing in the background and my breast mom has got a girl on her mind but he's also like she does i mean she does and he's

also like that's sick lara's gonna look like that so that's part of it too and i think that part that is part of it that is part of it and i think again part of the freudian thing is like he's also like thinking of his mom like okay okay interesting so what about elaine does elaine no i'm just kidding wrong series wrong series wrong series this is oedipal in law oh my god um but yeah i mean it's uncomfortable but like that's uh that's what it is and also oh hi iko um hi iko oh i'm glad that we have a demon near us because someone's got to bring us back to some jesus here Hayako. Hayako. I'm glad that we have a demon near us because someone's got to bring us back to some Jesus here.

That's true. I mean, that is what it is. It is what it is. It was like, Lyra's going to look like that. Hopefully less evil. Probably less evil. Definitely less evil. I mean, like, even their motions, right?

Because he notes that she puts the hair behind her ear and uh lyra does that a lot that's like her little trademark thing motion it's interesting well will leaves the bear and the angel for a moment listening and seeing across the valley at the treetops that tremble below he watches vultures wheeling miles away, and he knows Balthamos is right. Marisa cast a spell upon him. Hmm. He comes to his senses, though, and hears a distant sound, the drone of a zeppelin, which Yorick confirms hearing as well. Eight of them, all in a line, and they'll be coming after nightfall. Will divulges his plan. Make an opening, take Lyra, hurry before Marisa follows. He mentions Ama's drug that will wake Lyra and how he'll need her help.

He hopes Yorick will help him distract Coulter. Will also asks Balthamos to help keep watch while he finds a new world for their plan. We then get a scene cut over to the Galavaspians who are hatching their dragonflies finally, and it works kind of like Twilight imprint imprinting just yeah i mean kind of kind of i mean so the first thing they see is their person they latch on and they whisper its name to them whoever whichever galavespian has the demon-esque dragonfly and they let it taste you i love the language here i think there's such a popular fandom question in hdm of like demons being born and how the process works and i feel like the actual quote from this is really nice for it i i think pullman has something like this in line in his mind for demons that

the lady salmachia bent over the splitting cocoon of the electric blue one, easing the damp, filmy wings clear, taking care to let her face be the first thing that imprinted itself on the many-faceted eyes, soothing the fine-stretched nerves, whispering its name to the brilliant creature, teaching it who it was. When I think about demons and how, you know, Holman has said,

the parent demons name the child demons. So this is almost similar to what i imagine right when the demons are born and when they appear into existence it's all speculation but it feels right to me but they like yeah have the eye contact make uh imprint and then but i yeah and then teaching it who it was but i I guess it takes a longer time. Same as for the kids, right? I'm still learning who I am. Yeah, that's for fucking sure. Well, I think you're right. We also have Chevalier Tialis texting Lord Roque about what's about to go down.

The Consistorial Court is going to split into two units by the cave. One is going to kill lyra and take back mrs culture if possible ideally alive and the other is to take will they also ideally want to behead lyra for proof i just have to come back to you're cool with chevalier you don't like bon vie interesting jotting that down anyways i love that uh ideally is the best part of that sentence they ideally want to behead lyra like such a ludicrous thing to hear from church members right that they want to behead a child which is the point right like that's the whole point like wow how ridiculous and besides like the whole like you know wanting to kill mother eve thing it also

has a sort of beheading medusa vibes right because they want the head to prove that they've killed her and of course as a trophy also yeah so well they suggest king agunwe and the gyraptors will arrive shortly after the zeppelins and the galavaspians will defend the children knowing will has the upper hand so long as he has the knife quote unquote dot dot tialis's dragonfly starts hatching and then they put their harnesses on the harnesses are made of spider silk reins stirrups of titanium and a saddle of hummingbird skin and they will wear them until they die i will add this is great I love this detail here because spider silk is actually nature's super fiber. Like spider's web is literally so strong.

And actual hummingbirds use spider silk in their nests because it's something that expands when they get bigger and expand and grow. And it's super stretchy and strong. And then titanium is just as strong as high strength steel. However, it's 40% lighter and it's corrosion resistant. Just as strong as high strength steel, however, it's 40% lighter and it's corrosion resistant. Hmm. And the idea that they use hummingbird skin is interesting because hummingbird skin is thin, but it's super elastic, apparently. How did we know that?

It's super aerodynamic. I did a lot of Googling today. I was a little stoned. But how did they find that out? Yeah, I mean, Galavaspians are real. I'm getting my shit about birds. Bird law. I don't. Apparently I don't know anything about birds. Yeah. Borbs real I don't give a shit about birds apparently I don't know anything about birds

yeah, orbs I don't know, I mean obviously these are great things to have on your steeds for battle, so they really armored them well, is all I'm saying yeah, and I mean as you said about spider silk, that's why Spider-Man uses it

yeah no, you're right, that is why that is not a joke that that was i guess a big part of the concept but anyway yeah that's that's a lot of uh really good facts especially the hummingbird skin that it's still just astounding to me that we have learned that somehow the fault it made me feel bad i do feel bad and like yeah don't skin hummingbirds but i guess like i accidentally read a guide on how to while reading about this and i'm pretty scarred for life now maybe they just died normally you know like at the end of a long happy hummingbird life oh my god okay well anyway so yeah they all fly off into the air on their dragonflies then tialis quickly slung the

pack over his shoulder and sliced through the oiled fabric of the zeppelin skin and beside him the lady had mounted her dragonfly now she urged it through the narrow gap into the hammering gusts the long frail wings trembled as she squeezed through and then the joy of flight took over the creature and it plunged into the wind a few seconds later

Tialis joined her in the wild air his mount eager to fight the swift gathering dusk itself And I do have to add, it's almost like that chapter ended how it started, right? You have Ama playing the game of getting through the mists. Yeah. And here they are, breaking through into the gusts of air. That's great. Trusting their dragonflies to, you know, be born. Rebirth. Be born.

Christian shit. Yeah. Oh, man. Reconverse, goddammit. Reborn as dragonflies. And that brings us to our next chapter the break which opens with an edmund spencer poem from fierce wars and faithful loves book one of the fairy queen shout out if you're reading labelle sauvage or read labelle sauvage we talk a little

bit about that poem there as well and we know that Pullman loves it. Still as he fled his eye was backward cast as if his fear still followed him behind. Lord Asriel paces in his adamant tower with Lord Rope texting on the lodestone resonator, King Agunwe getting ready to go out in his gyropter. They needed to get their troops on the ground. Gyroctors are faster than zeppelins, but there is distance to close. Meanwhile, the Swiss Guard are with the Kansas Historial Court's zeppelins, their soldiers' ten monstrous crossbows, deadly enough to shoot 15 bolts per minute from 500 yards away. I just want to know why we're using crossbows.

They clearly have guns in this world. Why are we using crossbows? Realistically, I will say I think it's because they're cowards because they can stay 500 yards away and like not advance and still kill people do they not have like other weapons that do the same thing like well i i think it's obvious they do have weapons like other ones i mean will does get the gun later obviously have coulter but uh i think they have other weapons but i think the crossbows are like i don't know they go on like they talk about how they have spiral fins that are made of horn that spin the bolt and make them as accurate

as a rifle and that it's silent which might be a really great vintage so i think like the silence of it and the fact that it's as accurate as a rifle without having to be gunpowder and be a resource maybe. Yeah. And there's something weird about it too, right? Like, so this is the Swiss Guard that they have hired. And the actual Swiss Guard is a minor armed force honor guard unit for the pope it's maintained by the holy see in our world here in 2021 by the pope and the apostolic palace serving as the de facto military of vatican city and it all started like originally swiss guards the italian guardia svizera corpse of swiss soldiers were responsible for the safety

of the pope and they were an independent armed force that were employed by the roman catholic church under the pope so like they're outside of the law because of that because they're like their own force that's independently contracted and i also really something that kind of caught my eye was that they swear fealty in a ceremony at the belvedere court remember the belvedere from last book from the subtle knife oh i was like the vodka oh me the belvedere rabbit the belvedere vodka court um interesting i didn't know that so they're just like a fancy hired militia great absolutely and it's interesting i originally was like wait are they swiss like yeah are they swiss that yeah that's why it's confusing yeah but they're actually just like

a minor force like think like in a song of ice and fire they're like hired guns yeah they're like they're like uh sell swords sell swords yeah they're basically sell swords for the pope they're just a holy order that's a such a misleading name because same as you i was like swiss guards yeah of course they're uh they're neutral but i think that's the point that they're getting like involved yeah yeah yeah but also like that they're they're not like that's the point is that like these swiss guards are different they're not that they absolutely take a side and it's not the people's side as we're about to see absolutely the people's side would have a belvedere vodka court anyway oh my god so back in the cave mrs coulter is lying awake the

monkey is frustrated because there are no more bats to torture and it's just smearing like fireflies instead which they call glow flies this is a regional thing i call them fireflies some places i think further south call them lightning bugs I guess they're called glowflies here. And Lyra, as you know, is still asleep in a restless dream that makes the little polecat-shaped pan grind his teeth. Will and Nama are on their way to free Lyra, and Yorick is also close by in armor to hold off soldiers eventually. But what they don't know is that Lord asriel's forces are also on their way and they know what zeppelins sound like so they can anticipate that but not quite gyroptors and you know what sim and actually also uh you know i not really say because i don't actually think

i know what zeppelins sound like i theorize gyroptors sound like helicopters right probably the end of their name yeah like as as you and i live in cities where we often hear helicopters i feel like i know that one yeah and maybe zeppelins are like more like battle planes or metal blimps i don't know what the fuck does that never heard have you heard a blimp i don't think i've heard a blimp no i don't think they don't make sound unless you pop them i don't know i'm just gonna imagine they're like a steel bullet-y kind of warplane. Correct us if you can, please.

Jesus. Yeah, if you have encountered a blimp or a zeppelin. I've been waiting for someone to put me in my place for like 29 years. When it comes to zeppelins and blimps. I've just been waiting for, you know, my Kiki's delivery service moment.

So Balthamos I've just been waiting for, you know, my Kiki's delivery service moment. Oh, oh. So Balthamos could have told them that all this was happening, but he's too sad to do it. And that also then makes it difficult for them to talk to Ama because Balthamos is supposed to be their translator. And, you know, Will just pleads with Balthamos to stay near and be on the lookout and balthamos kind of agrees he says that he hasn't abandoned will yet all right eliana here's the foreshadowing i told you it was coming i had a new take on our new take last week but they're kind of balthamos and baruch are just angel patriclis and achilles i can see that yeah like baruch is pat loving, kind, sensitive, gone first of the two.

And Balthamos is kind of more prideful, the more hubris of the two. Yeah. Having to learn to live without the best part of him that tempered him. That's so sad. Why would you do this? I had a great vacation. That's what I'm telling you. Sad and gay. So so gay oh my god

so yeah that was my new take the angels are just patrickless and achilles i i think yeah that makes a lot of sense and here they are in the middle of another epic war yeah right and and here he is achilles himself is finally living in patrickless's like honor you know what patrick would want him to do so he does he hasn't abandoned will yet he's still gonna help him and meanwhile our other winged friends tialis and salmakia are flying over on their dragonflies guiding them downwards being tossed by the wind will and ama get themselves close to the cave he cuts a window in the air finding a world that's similar where they can take Lyra. It's barren, rocky, with moon and stars and insect and pale ground.

Amma joins him, making the motion to protect from evil, as she does. So again, back to Amma with her superstitions. Her demon changes into a lizard, accordingly, which, must say, lizards do symbolize rebirth. A.K., aka give us an Amma being reborn into his dark materials series. Phillip, please, give us Amma books. So, this place

is cool, but it's too bright. Will realizes as they leave it again, he's like, if we make a window to this place, we'll give ourselves away. We don't have time. We have to just get Lyra and wake her up. Amma's scared scared but she has been practicing she she mentions basically through kaling so they're ready will cuts a super small window to look through he sees colter and her demon asleep but he can't see lyra they have to go into the cave themselves the plan is going to shit right now so

they go in the cave gotta find her ama's like i have to come with you i know the canes i know the cave so they go together they open a window they can hear zeppelins approaching but they finally see lyra stretched out next to mrs coulter and it is uh said their outlines had merged in the darkness no wonder he hadn't seen her i just really like this line and maybe it means something deeper i don't know but but the language is really nice, and to some extent it does show us maybe Mrs. Coulter's desires, right, to engulf Lyra, make Lyra part of her and protect her. I love that, because, like, Lyra is

the extension of her. But she's not, she's her own but, like, that's Mrs. Coulter's idea. Yeah. Well, the zeppelins are getting louder, the trees are moving, and so are the lights in the air and mrs coulter wakes up which i think is mildly unsurprising because again there are zeppelins uh i i don't know why they thought this was like the time they're like this is gonna work right now um though it unfortunately is about when they try to get her that she does wake up then

because she's immediately alert when they get there and she turns to look at will and for a moment he sees elaine's face and not marissa's he tries to open another window but he loses focus and his mind leaves the knife's point and then the knife breaks into pieces on the ground there's no more time though ama must wake lyra will prepares to fight the monkey but nothing happens because then he realizes oh she's not fighting me because she has a pistol she has a gun smart woman it reminds me that scene in my immortal uh the classic harry potter fan fiction where they're like where he's like what what do i need spells for i have a gun or something like that it's like true true uh coulter moves and lets light from the outside show her pistol and in doing so some of the light shines on what ama is doing sprinkling a powder on lyra's lip watching as she breathes in helping it into her nostril by using her own

demon's tail as a brush which is classic i fuck with my cats with this sometimes with their tails so i really appreciated that you know i was just using all parts of the animal today i love it it's so cute it's the best it's the cutest and i i mean i just like the scene also because like that detail about the brush and the little demon tail i think that tells us a lot about ama and we've been talking about her a lot and how this is like very much you know in some ways her fairy tale at this moment and despite ama knowing very little about lyra the moment that she realized that lyra is in danger and is being forced to stay asleep ama resolves to do something about it and because of that i think that she is

in fact very much like lyra and i am like she's right they probably would have been wonderful friends had they both been awake at the same time in the same place for an extended period of time that was more than i don't know five minutes in the middle of danger and because like despite knowing nothing about this girl who's being forced to stay asleep the same way that lyra uh suddenly takes action when it comes to tony mccarius ama realizes that she can either ignore this problem or be part of the solution and do something good and for this person and ama shows like great commitment to trying to save lyra from insisting that she accompany will to ensure that lyra wakes right she takes on that

responsibility despite the danger she could have just given the powder to will and been like good fucking luck and then here like she's using her own demon to administer the cure which means that by using her demon's tail as a brush she's touching lyra with her own demon and i think that shows like a huge amount of like intimacy and therefore dedication right she's breaking the taboo and undergoing this discomfort on her own end for the sake of saving this girl it almost makes her uh even with the cave analogy to bring it back to the cave for one moment it almost makes ama like the mary magdalene right who witnesses the miracle of jesus coming back to life at the cave you you know, three days

has been dead, longer than three days in this instance, but it makes her like one of the most loyal disciples, you know, that she was a disciple in Eve's coming up back, coming back to life, because that is what this is. It is kind of Lyra being reborn, coming back to life, and I didn't really think of it this way until now. That's so true. That's so true. That's a great point. And the womb and tomb thing, right? She's been in this tomb.

And as you said, Alma is helping her come back to life. And she's here to witness and be part of that miracle. She sees a lot of miracles happen. Kind of, you know, in a way, if you think about it with the knife stuff. Yeah. The sounds outside begin to change and will recognizes helicopter sounds okay so so that's that is what it sounds like you were right we do know the sound of helicopters chop chop chop chop chop we live in cities so yes we do

libra stirs will squeezes her hand and amas demon nudges pan also a man falls out of the sky probably died off of the helicopter. There's a lot of war stuff happening behind them. Will very carefully scavenges the pieces of the knife. Thankfully, they all broke into seven pieces. Only seven. He puts them in the sheath and he's like, I'm just going to worry about it later and figure it all out how to fix it later. Very symbolic, those seven pieces.

Yes, it does. it does feel so and you know it's too bad it was a handy tool while it lasted r.i.p the sound like what's gonna happen that book is behind us yeah that book's behind us we'll move on from our knife the gyroctors land on the cliff and the African riflemen come down. Will asks Mrs. Coulter's plan and she's like holding you captive basically. And he's like, well, the other side wants us dead. And she's like, yeah, but there's more than one side. The other other side might not want you dead. She hopes the Africans will win. And she looks very happy about that for some reason, about that hope and hanging on to it.

And Will's like, all right, time to fuck with her her and he tries to break into all that and he's like you broke my knife and she's like no that is all on you that's a you problem i personally wanted to use your knife to like get the fuck out you broke your knife and it is it absolutely is a him problem it's his mommy issues he has to deal with don't try to put this on coulter girl okay don't try uh-uh if nothing else yeah i think mrs coulter now that i think about it and that's like a childlike thing right you know sometimes trying to blame other things mrs coulter uh she takes on she's like nope all these were my fault she's totally fine with it well we do have good news though Lyra has woken and she says Will

and then Will like goes up to her she's about to tell him about her dream but it's hard because you know that state where you're like not quite awake right and you're waking up and now blessed Ama is like she's so nervous now that the girl is finally awake it's so cute and we have this great line

of Will breathed in the scent of lara's sleepy body with a happy satisfaction she was here she was real my children oh my god anyway so lara asks will what's happening and he explains ama has helped me wake you and he tried to get here fast but also along with me so did all those soldiers out there and then so more warfare happens outside including flames and then mrs coulter takes careful aim at someone and and then will hatches a plan to knock mrs coulter over the next time she does that and tells balthamos but then when she turned he turns he's like ah there's no one next to me because balthamos is cowering somewhere all the way in the back and Will tries to urge the angel

to help but before that can happen Mrs. Coulter cries out and touches her ankle while the monkey snarls and grabs something. It's Lady Salmachia! Yes it is. Lady Salmachia is yelling for Tialis while the monkey is pulling at her arms and as we know

and as Amma knows she's like oh no the monkey is going to tear her apart because I've seen him do it to bats. And then the pistol falls from Mrs. Coulter's hand, so now Will has the gun, and no one is moving as then they see that there's a tiny man on Mrs. Coulter's shoulder, pulling her by the hair,

and then he's got his poison spur against her jugular vein, and it is a stalemate. Then, you know, Mrs. Coulter now, this time time then she makes the will's fucking problem she throws it to him and goes so master will what do you think we should do now first of all will's mommy fantasy gets to come true now oh my god will coulter is calling master will oh no oh no it is a snappy ending to a chapter though like i do want to point that out like what a great reversal that like just moments before coulter a chapter though like i do want to point that out like what a

great reversal that like just moments before colter was like fuck you i do what i want and then now colter's like okay master will now where you are you 13 year old 14 year old man child it is your turn to be the boss i am out of moves yeah she's almost like how she's out yes that takes us to the end of the break the end of chapter 12 and into chapter 13 the chapter that's the talk of the town right now right tialis and selmakia which opens with a poem that you all should already be in on, if you remember listening to our past His Dark Materials episodes, by William Blake, Billy B. himself. Frowning, frowning night, o'er this desert bright, let thy moon arise while I close my eyes. Of course, the next verse after this is, sleeping like a lay, while the beasts of prey come from caverns deep viewed the maid asleep little girl lost right you remember that little poem eliana you remember it i do how could i let

you forget it how could i mostly remember us talking about lycra free lycra lycra free lycra but now she's a little girl found and she is no longer asleep congratulations lycra well for now i mean she pretty much she's gonna go back to sleep she's gonna go back to sleep but she's all like i i could do this i can keep watch absolutely not so the chapter starts with will knocking the golden monkey down stunning him and allowing the tiny lady to go free but the galabaspians i'm gonna call it that because we know what they are, then move away. And then as Tialis goes to Salmakia to check on her, he asks Will if he has the knife,

and Will says yes. And that is true, but they don't need to know that it's broken. And the Galabaspians say that the children should follow them, but Amma should go home before the Swiss guard arrive. Will agrees to the plan, knowing they can still escape through the first window that he made bye ama that's it everyone say bye there she goes yep no spoilers but this is her exit everyone he's just like oh is she okay and then she looks and she's just scampering down a different path i'm like good for you girl run from the end of this story because there's no happiness for anyone okay he watches the

gallivespians get on their dragonflies and fly to the cave mouth where coulter is still drowsy from the sting and then coulter cries out she reached up as they went past her and cried lyra lyra my daughter my dear one lyra Lyra, don't go! Don't go! Lyra looked down at her, anguished, but then she stepped over her mother's body and loosened Mrs. Coulter's feeble clutch from her ankle. The woman was sobbing now. Will saw tears glistening on her cheeks.

Crouching just beside the cave mouth, the three children waited until there was a brief pause in the shooting and then followed the dragonflies as they darted down the path the light had changed as well as the cold ambaric gleam from the veplins floodlights there was the leaping orange of flames will looked back once in the glare mrs coulter's face was a mask of tragic passion, and her demon clung piteously to her as she knelt and held out her arms, crying, Lyra, Lyra, my love, my heart's treasure, my little child, my only one. Oh, Lyra, Lyra, don't go. Don't leave me, my darling daughter. You're tearing my heart. And a great and furious sob shook Lyra herself, for all mrs coulter was the only mother

she would ever have and will saw a cascade of tears run down the girl's cheeks sad this this breaks my heart it's so difficult for everyone yeah well will has to be ruthless in that moment and he pulls lyra away as the gallows espions urge them to go faster it's a very painful start for lyra's reawakening right for her rebirth here as the story's hero which she already was uh but that line after all mrs coulter was the only mother she'd ever have and will saw a cascade of tears run down the girl's cheeks. Not 100% true, as we who have read the Outer Works know, no spoilers, but it's hard because she just had her free will torn from her for 12 chapters or so, right? Like, her mom just kept her asleep, vibing.

like her mom just kept her asleep vibing um she doesn't even get to make her first choice which i think is prominent that like the rest of this book is kind of like that she doesn't really get to make as many choices as she wants the rest of the book uh some of the choices yes some of the the things that she chooses in this chapter like how she's very concerned for roger's soul's well-being that comes up but she doesn't get her first awakened choice and i do understand and get it that in the heat of that moment will had to pull her away because you know she might have chosen the way his heart wanted him to the last two chapters right uh i mean he wanted to choose her he wanted to choose coulter the last two chapters she was very attractive

choice to choose of well what if we just trusted this adult what if we trusted in that like that moment of maternity and just said mom take care of us but he knows she's lying and that's the thing right like you can't stay always in the maternal fantasy you have to leave it and yeah i mean yeah what you've said of this is what Will's heart wanted not just here with Mrs. Coulter but like all those years with Elaine right

and how that compares and we really have that collision of just these imperfect mothers who are loving their children imperfectly and then putting them under such such duress and so yeah that maternal fantasy it's shattered for all all three of them for will for lyra probably also for elaine but you know she's not here right now she's actually a very minor part of this spoken story and the gallivespians

suggest that they go to the cliff and give themselves up to the african soldiers but will disobeys as he does as teenagers do and he heads to the window three men block his path the swiss guard and once more i'm confused because they also have crossbows and they don't need to fire 500 yards why do they crossbows they also have wolf dog demons and and Will calls for Yorick, who starts for them. But before he gets there, Balthamos finally helps. He stuns the soldiers, but unfortunately the soldiers are trained in actually fighting. So they attack back at Balthamos, who cannot take it, and springs upwards into the sky. And for the second time in these chapters, we see a similar language of Will watched in dismay.

This is the second time of Will looked in dismay like this is the second time of will looked in dismay when it comes to balthamos unfortunately and as the guard regroups will takes a shot with the pistol and his aim is true hitting the man's heart as he dies the gallivespians leap from the dragonflies and use their spurs to kill the other two and i'm just like very i'm sad for will that this happened to him and for him but again we get to see like that very very like preciseness in the way that he he is right his shots his hands and that's part of why he's the bearer i mean he could be a soldier right like in a heartbeat he turned a different way he's a soldier his dad said he's a warrior yeah he is a warrior and there's

something really rough and reminiscent of lee's last stand here yes because this is will's first intentional kill by gun right not just his hands an accidental kill by his hands or self-defense with the knife but this is a real intentional kill that he had to do still self-defense in my opinion but yeah it's like Hester told Lee right like it's us or them for Lyra and that is exactly what's driving Will here and I think there is a certain aspect of it um we talk a lot about like in puberty you know how boys being conditioned you know to just like disconnect their heart from that sort of violence and disconnect their heart from violence in general and will's conditioning here to become a soldier yeah absolutely it's um that's a great point of how the world's forcing that on him unfortunately

and they run hard and for a second he wonders where ama is but again she's on a different path and she's safe getting the fuck out of there soon they see the window and will pulls lyra towards it and after tumbling through will holds his stomach and vomits because he realizes as as you've said now he's killed two men also he thinks of tulio as another death kind of caused by him and he doesn't want it and his body is revolted and he continues vomiting and it says until his stomach and his heart were empty and you know this gets brought up in a few moments but for lyra and their reminder of roger we see that a lot of her story and growth surrounds the people who die because of her or for her as as you said right lee like we're helping lyra and will's story it's very complementary to that of people dying because

of him of course right also for that fate but also because he kills them as you said he's being conditioned and forced to be this daughter and he kills them for lyra or for himself and protecting his family and then so these two kids they just have to deal with this like huge weight and that toll it takes on them it's very much a loss of innocence not just through growing up right and not just through getting knowledge but through this very very painful moments of forcing them to commit these horrible things or dealing with that guilt and and we see it's very it's a very visceral pain because will is feeling it so deeply and physically yeah that's something that's

so special about will and lyra's bond right is like even through all this madness they still are finding ways to kind of like help each other while recovering from all this craziness and lyra specifically here she has to care for pan because you know he's kind of helpless as well during this uh but she can't really touch will or do anything because she just sees him kind of convulsing and recovering from this pain he just went through it's uh i think they're both learning a lot from each other through the pain they're both experiencing and that's very obvious here yeah the galavespians snuck in with them and their dragonflies are actually having a great time they're eating

moths they're hungry little dragonflies and i found this so interesting because like i guess dragonflies adult dragonflies are born rulers of their domain and they have to prove it no matter what at every moment and any insect that thinks they can pull a fast one dragonflies are like no i'm gonna eat your ass so whether it's gnats may flies flies mosquitoes and other flying insects let alone butterflies moths and bees dragonflies are serious dude they're very serious maybe that's why they're dragons dragonflies i mean they are literally the epitome of saying that you won't yeah that you want i didn't know that they i like bees kind of though um they can leave them but but i would definitely be like yes i mean butterflies are okay too yes dragonflies

i love how petty they are because like i mean like if they choose you to lose their stinger they're like I would die for this dishonor on my figure that's true and they also I mean they make honey they're very important for our ecosystem fuck mosquitoes fuck gnats get them dragonflies eat them all day long please

butterflies moths and bees well moths moths are I don't know they're kind of annoying yeah it depends on the moth if they were better they'd just be butterflies oh my god all right glazing past venom off tialis massages salmachia and they kind of start to stare sternly at the children willow's like oh these motherfuckers are formidable he tells lyra he has the alethiometer and lyra's pleased yammering on with questions but not really asking real things uh and she greets the alethiometer and whines it like an old friend will has questions for her in the alethiometer like how to fix my knife but instead

he's like are you hungry or thirsty my darling uh and they go up the slope they keep their distance from the spies trying to catch up while the spies follow them finally they get to a cave kind of far enough away and will divulges the knife is broken and asks if she can see if the alethiometer has answers pan in mouse form is listening in intently and as lyra looks for them to get their answer, which is very exciting, it involves Yorick Burnison, Eliana's favorite. And I'm very excited about it. Lyra's also very excited about it. And she's like, wow, I can't believe he's here, Yorick Burnison! And also she's like, yeah, Yorick can do anything with metal, because Will's like, can he actually, like, fix this?

But then she's like, wait, but where is he? And Will's like, well, he he's close but he's kind of you know in the middle of fighting right now kind of defending us because there's fighting he's like also uh he's with my new friend balthamos and then he has to explain who balthamos is and will experiences a lot of empathy uh as he explains with balthamos and you've been through and he blushes on behalf of Balthamos's actions imagining that the angel feels kind of ashamed of what he's done and then he says but I'll tell you more about him later it's so strange he told me so many things and I think I understand them

too and part of it might be about what's going on in terms of the larger you know war about fate and shit but i think it's also about love i do think it's about love as we've like come complexly discussed that it might not be our favorite written thing in the entire series but i i like that will is finally understanding what his dad told him but in the terms that Balthamos is learning them slash displaying them if that makes sense yeah yeah I think he understands it more perhaps in like what

Balthamos is saying he's like I see that and I guess it's a mix it's ambiguous maybe it is also about the the other stuff but I like to think it's about love but then that makes it sad if it's about love anyway yeah about losing the one you love maybe well uh and right now these people have found each other once more and lyra wants to know

everything that's happened since she's gone because she's lyra and for example like will how why aren't you bleeding and he's like oh my father cured it and she's like wait um what excuse me we have to back up you found your dad and she so he has to explain all that uh and and talks about it but he doesn't have to explain it to us because we've read book two and the beginning of book three we were there and then lyra talks about sleeping and how she's so sure that Mrs. Coulter was actually probably kind to her while she was asleep, despite all the bad things that she did. And then about how in her dreams,

she saw Roger and that he was a ghost calling to her. And she's wracked with guilt over her role in leading him to his death. And she realizes that she must go to Roger in the land of the dead and apologizes. And then after that, anything goes Will just wonders well I wonder can we just like cut into the land of the dead could it be that easy and Lyra asks the alethiometer and says like yes kind of more or less but it's also strange and then she's like I wonder what'll happen to our demons hmm what a question to ask, right? And I will say, there's something interesting going on with Will here. And maybe it's just because he's being made to take charge, right? It's a lot of responsibility being put on him, especially since Lyra's had a bit of a nap, right? Not her fault, but a bit of a nap.

So he actually asks when he asks her about the alethiometer, which Lyra is very happy to not touch the alethiometer. She's like, I'm so happy to be with Will. I'll never touch that shit again. Mood. I'm happy to be awake and have free will again. Mood. Will says, you could ask. Do it now.

Ask where it is and how we get there. There's almost like a tinge of anxiety and desire and drive for him to get the answers from the alethiometer almost a greed like not not a bad greed necessarily but like he's definitely one track minded right now and he kind of holds back at first but he needs to figure out how to fix this knife and to still wield independence and be useful right to the expedition as well and as lyra begins to explain her want and need for kind of this, this spiritual journey to go see Roger, possibly, and to almost pre-absolve her of her own guilt with Roger, right? As we talk about pre-absolution in the past couple episodes.

Will, again, is thinking of the knife. If they didn't get the knife mended they'd be able to do nothing at all will thought i think the stress of this journey is really getting to him especially because he's been alone for the last 12 chapters beyond the grieving balthamos and and ama rebooting and recalibrating their relationship especially after saving her from the tomb womb cave is going to take a little time till they're back on the same frequency and page but will doesn't really realize that fixing the broken knife and freeing roger from his misery is kind of one in the same right like both are super spiritual journeys healing processes that

they need to take lyra needs to talk to roger and help him and Will needs to put together these broken pieces of himself right the guilt and the shame that he feels in abandoning his mother and his mother not always being able to take care of him all these complex feelings not unlike or opposite Marisa's complex feelings for Lyra is what Will needs to conquer within himself now that he's already figured out some of the daddy side of the trauma right uh and lyra's guilt at roger in the tracks of her parents and what they've done to her life has to be conquered not just for the plot's sake but for her soul's sake right like if will and lyra are going to be the two fated children they have to get themselves spiritually right before doing the crazy stuff a third leg of a book requires

yes that's such a great point that these are these are very much the same right in part of resolving all that and i the the knife has been such a huge driving part of like that guilt right like i mean it seems to be tied to his feelings to how he feels towards his mother that that's part of the breaking right but at the same time it's also tied to his his as you said the daddy side of his trauma because his father has been like yo this life is part of your destiny now right if he wants to fulfill and take on his father's mantle he kind of needs that knife you know it's a greed and anxiety of trying to you know find your place in the world and the knife it symbolizes so many things for will not just you know his connection to his father and the mission that his father has given

him but as you said it's power it's it's their freedom their freedom their ability to go between worlds and and escape the people who are coming after them and also uh power in terms of strength in order to get other people to i mean take them seriously right it's freedom in terms of yeah violence so that people can't hold their uh own will over will and lyra free him free him free will free lycra and so so we get this exchange that ties into a little things that we've talked about in the past where lyra asks could we really go to the land of the dead but what part of us does that because demons fade away when we die i've seen them and our bodies well they just stay in the grave and decay don't they then there must be a third part a different part you know she said full of excitement i think that must be true

because i can think about my body and i can think about my demon so there must be another part to do the thinking yes and that's the ghost lyra's eyes blazed i have some discussion thoughts on this, but this is like, this is really philosophical, right? I mean, we all wonder this, bro. Like there has to be a third part,

right? And many people have wondered it in the past in terms of, yeah, philosophers, theologians. And we've actually also even wondered this in the past and discussed it more in depth about that distinction between the body, soul, and that spirit or ghost, and the differences between the three in previous episodes. And if you'd like a refresher, go check out our His Dark Materials, episode six of Northern Lights slash The Golden Compass, chapters 16 and 17, which, I mean, it's also just a very fun episode in general because we were joined by our good friend tana ford oh yes and okay i do also want to be fair that's probably one of my favorite

discussions of it but i feel like we discuss this distinction like in every episode because it's like the that's also the soul of his dark materials because it's like the soul and where it goes indeed indeed we actually have as you said referenced it a couple of different times bureaucratically speaking do we go probably 19 different times just gonna be honest

there's been at least 19 references yeah no there's been like a lot of different times it's just i think that's the one where i remember doing it most deaths but also tana was there so that was fun yes like tana was there totally well this talk has definitely given lyra hope right hope that they can rescue roger get his ghost out but but again, they need to fix the knife first. When things are calmer internally and externally, mostly Will's head and stomach, he asks the

Galavespians who they are and what side they're on. They explain who the Galavespians are, their names, and that they're working for Asriel. Lyra asks where they're from, and they say another world with similar problems. Their outlaws and their leader, Lord Roke, wanted to support Lord Asriel. Their goal is to get Lyra to her father, but Lyra, of course, does not want to do that. I get that, like, the Galavaspians are committed to this cause and all, and it's a big deal. I'm just like, they realize that they literally just rescued her from her mother right like they could have a little bit of empathy and be like wait interesting perhaps she does not also want to be a pawn for her father but I do think that there's a lot of merit to the points that they

bring up later which is like I mean they're an important part of this whole this whole equation and that people are dying for their sake so a lot is really just resting on their shoulders and lyra recognizes that it seems and and having suffered such a large loss herself with the roger as brought up in this chapter she knows what the cost is i do think that the galavaspians are expecting a lot of these fated children like there's a big word in that two-word situation which is children right like yes the galavespian cycle of age and growth is way different as we've kind of already discussed but their lifespan is nine or ten years so they have to accomplish so much more than what humans get to waste away in our years and they're nearing 10 and lyra and will are past 10 their expectations are very different

they need to lower them lyra needs a lap you know and that difference does show culturally after this like lyra laughs at the idea of making her do anything they're like we're gonna make you go to asriel and she's like you don't know who i am uh and lady salmachia seizes pan and puts one of the poisonous spurs to his leg which is taboo right touching someone's demon so lyra's in shock she actually thinks of bull of anger and remembers that trauma there will in response grabs chevalier holding him so he can't use his spurs ready to bash his head in telling him let go of pan lyra saw with a cold thrill will was perfectly ready to dash the gallivespians head against the rock and both little people knew it amazing we love a boyfriend who's ready to fight people at any given time i gotta say my husband

told some guy to turn his phone down on the plane the other day because this guy was just like blasting a movie and i'm like there are like 100 people on this plane you can't just blast a movie with no headphones bring headphones dickhead uh but my husband totally was ready to fight him so good for you lyra get yourself a boyfriend who's ready to fight all the time oh my god that is that is actually i think what's going through her head right now i mean that's what we're told. She's like, yeah, yeah. Fight, fight, fight. The Galavespians show they're ready to do anything to accomplish their mission, though, through this.

Even if it means disrespecting someone else's soul a little bit. Thankfully, though, Will gives his own display of brute power in the face of these Thumbelina motherfuckers. He calms them down. Salmachia backs away. Pan hisses. He turns into a wildcat before returning to Lyra.

And Will puts Tialis down. They start to scold the kids. And they're like, you're thoughtless and insolent and people died for your safety. And Lyra apologizes, understanding that. And they turn to Will. And Will basically says, fuck you as well. Will's like,

respect goes two ways and explains, I'm in charge, and we will call the shots of what to do. Yeah, so it's a lot like what you're saying, right, about them being children. And I think there's like an interesting little reprise here in their meeting with the Galavespians that kind of reminds me of when they met Baruch and Balthamos. reminds me of when they met Baruch and Balthamos but yeah it's a little reminiscent of their meeting with the angels and how Will suddenly tries to set that dynamic by asserting that he's in charge because he is stronger physically and and as you're talking about regarding the knife and the prospect of it being broken that um he's still using the idea of the knife to wield that power and we're seeing Will learn learn from Ly Lyra in terms of how to be deceitful and

regarding them being children, I mean yeah, they are two kids, they're impertinent, they're disobedient and I think like yeah, they're the fated ones and it kind of is, it's this funny way of turning it on its head because in the previous chapter the Galavespians were pretty jazzed, they were pretty excited they're like, yeah, we're gonna meet the promised

kids, how amazing, how blessed for us to meet lyra and will um in our short lifetimes um so there's something i think fun about this exchange when it turns out the children of prophecy act like kids they're nothing like they'd imagine they don't act holy at all they lie and murder and they like shout and they're and they're disobedient and annoying and i mean like they also like have to do these things too right they have to follow what they want to do because they also their own convictions of what it's what's right but also i mean yeah they're fucking kids they're very much kids and acting like them and i think there's a certain respect though right right? Like the Galabaspians are like, all right, you got us.

You guys are crazy too. They're like, yeah, this kid's just killed one guy and he's willing to kill another, whatever. And we don't want to be that guy personally. Oh no. Yeah, the Galabaspians straight up agree. Like so long as the kids keep them updated on their plans, they're like like keep us

in contact give us your your coordinates all the time then we're good we'll we'll go with you and will and libra agree and they lie like this was a total lie right because they're like here's what we actually want to do they want to go find yorick they learn also through this and as we've kind of seen the spurs have deadly poison that the galavespians have but in smaller doses it causes drowsiness so now they know they know they're not going to die right away and that maybe the galavespians were being a little weak right like they were just trying to show face uh lyra and will quickly steal away though they leave the knife behind as collateral so the galavespians know they come back, and they discuss their need to mend the knife soon,

now realizing how important it really is to have this knife now they have two babysitters. In the meantime, Pan turns into a dragonfly himself, eating moths. He can't go as far, but he's fast and brighter patterned. Lyra wonders if they can trust these spies, and Will's like, yes, they're fierce fierce but I think they're honest so they return back to them saying they must sleep and then they'll leave in the morning Lyra takes first watch and so we end this chapter with how lucky Will was that she was awake now to look after him he was truly fearless and she admired that beyond measure but he wasn't good

at lying and betraying and cheating, which all came to her as naturally as breathing. When she thought of that, she felt warm and virtuous. Because she did it for Will, never for herself. She had intended to look at the alethiometer again, but to her deep surprise, she found herself as weary as if she'd been awake all that time instead of unconscious. And she lay down close by and closed her eyes.

Just for a brief nap as she assured herself before she fell asleep. I love Lyra. I love Lyra so much. She's such a mood. He wasn't good at lying and cheating and betraying, which came to her naturally as breathing. When she thought of that, she felt warm and virtuous. Right. She's like, I'm only doing it for Will. Oh my god.

Phil is having too much fun right here. And of course, Lyra goes the fuck back to sleep. Right. That's the real story. It's about Lyra going to sleep many different times for different amounts of time. And I'm like, she's like, how lucky Will was that she was awake now to look

after him. I'm like, reader, Will was not in fact lucky that she was looking after him. That bitch went to sleep. This bitch went to bed. I love her so much. This bitch went straight to bed. She was like, you've got, I've got first watch, Will, she says, sleeping. I got this.

I'm gonna be real I mean that could be me look as somebody who often lets others down I agree yeah as the person who frequently disappears when I'm with Chloe and people are like where's Eliana and she's like I don't know

napping yes I'm just guessing oh my god I am Will and you are Lyra. Wow. Maybe. Wow. Well, that closes out Tialis and Salmachia, Chapter 13. From here on out, we're going to enter our dust discussion.

So, if you are not caught up with the rest of the Amber Spyglass or the novellas or La Belle Sauvage or the Secret Commonwealth and the Books of Dust, we gotta go. We gotta get out of here. I don't want to spoil you, but we're gonna get just a little dusty. We will be back next month with the next few chapters, so keep an ear out. Alright.

Discussion, Eliana. I know we don't have a ton. Yeah, and you know what everyone this is your last chance turn turn the episode off now if you don't want to hear anything but i will i will at least say you know i feel like i have less and less to bring up in the discussion now because we're so near to the end of things happening anyway and like there's just like less stuff in the future there's stuff that i want to be able to discuss when we actually get to it but i'll just touch on a few things that i see going on here right like um in terms of foreshadowing that insinuation of the ghost in the land of the dead showing that yes in fact we are going there and then we get more of that

deepening of mrs culture's character to sort of herald what's to come for her in the story in terms of her sacrificing herself for lyra so on a reread i think that really stands out in terms of her character progression and then of course as we called out earlier ama and that dusty scene i i hopefully that wasn't too dusty when we brought it up earlier but like there's i think really clear connections there between that idea of like her getting to that place in her life where dust and knowledge etc is starting to settle upon her and what that means for growing up yeah i uh i think there's there's so much for coulter this is such a big like turn for her right that she uh from here on, her motives completely change and she becomes kind of a martyr, kind of like just very martyr like.

And yes. I kind of love it. I love Coulter's character from here on out. And the one thing that really stood out to me this time, and you actually highlighted the entire passage that made me think about it, which was when Lyra was saying, could we really go to the land of the dead and our bodies they just stay in the grave and decay and Will says there must be a third part a different part and she says I think that must be true because I can think about my body and I can think about my demon so there must be another part to do the thinking now in the secret commonwealth there is the new way to read the alethiometer right and you get kind of motion sick and sick to your stomach when you do this but you separate yourself while you read it you separate yourself from your body almost so do

you think the new way of reading the alethiometer and dissociating from your body like that is using that third part i think that's interesting because that's really interesting because um it's using less of you know the original way of reading the alethiometer as we're told uh has to do with learning everything and that's stress right on acquiring knowledge learning and creating new knowledge it has to do with the creation of dust, which is tied with demons and the soul. So I think this idea that you're saying of it being more tied to the spirit and how even Pan doesn't seem to really like, doesn't like this new method of reading the alethiometer

speaks to what you're saying. And we talk about Ama a lot this chapter as we had to say goodbye to her bless her and that said like you brought up kind of how she seems to have a different sense in them about some of this stuff and that she seems a little a little more superstitious and it's almost like that superstition is that third right like will is very much of the body lyra is very much of the mind and ama is very much of the body. Lyra is very much of the mind. And Ama is very much of the spirit, it seemed.

And like of being spiritually connected in these chapters, almost like standing in as that third part. So it does feel to me like maybe the new way of reading the alethiometer, the new way that doesn't require the books and the studying of separating yourself from all of it could be using the spirit, using that spiritual energy. Especially when we talk about like the rose oil and the different things coming up which that reminded me a little bit uh ama's game with kulang of climbing up in the mist and not wiping your eyes almost reminded me of the rose oil being used in eyes to see that is yeah i see that and and also also um to come to

that the idea of seeing through it um seeing through the rainbows which again is reminiscent of an aurora aurora borealis and looking at it but right in front of your eyes is that a little like what's going on with malcolm malcolm's eye when when he has his migraines and then he sees the he sees his own little personal roarer yeah the uh the actual like migraine kind of eye borealis without the migraine that's a really astute point i didn't think about it and i should have because eyes that's interesting well i only thought about it because you brought up the rose oil what I actually legitimately what could it mean

takes two to tango in the discussion okay you know the last thing I do want to say and something I didn't notice till like now certainly is certainly is a lot of Coulter casting spells in these three chapters.

I thought about it a little bit when we came to like, you know, almost Snow White style her being the keeper of Lyra right now, but also Will literally says Coulter cast a spell on him. I mean, and she's been casting spells

on Lyra in a way too, these sleeping spells. So, it is interesting. I mean, what if she been casting spells on Lyra in a way, too. These sleeping spells. So, it is interesting. What if she's a witch? I'm just saying. She might be, in a way. We just don't know. Gonna need Philip to publish

that third book. Yeah, I think he might address the dress. Flips to the end of the book halter's a teletubby oh my god tinky winky oh my god this is worse than deathly hallows okay that has been going around

on like the teletubbies like song on tiktok and like now like we just sing random things rhyming going like tinky winky or like who knows what like rhyming ruined my life ruining lives that's true We just sing random things, rhyming, going like, Tinky Winky, or like, who knows what. Like, rhyming. Ruined my life. Maybe Coulter's a Teletubby. Ruining lives, that's true.

Well, that closes out our discussion for The Amber Spyglass Episode 19 is Coulter a Teletubby. We hope that you'll tune in next month for the next, the 20th chapter of our His Dark Materials main trilogy episodes to hear more astute thoughts like, is Colter a Teletubby? Yes, that is, I think that's the main takeaway.

That's the main takeaway from the episode. And I mean, from everything we've done that all of our analysis has been leading up to that moment. So, and if she's a Teletubby, which one? I mean, from everything we've done, all of our analysis has been leading up to that moment. And if she's a Teletubby, which one? Listeners, please let us know if you'd like by sending us an email or a tweet on Girls Gone Canon, C-A-N-O-N, on Twitter. Or you can send us an email at girlsgonecanon at gmail.com, which Teletubby is Mrs. Coulter. It's Poe. Anyways, if you are not already, make sure you're subscribed to us on a streaming service

near you, where you can check us out every month when we drop new His Dark Materials episodes last Friday of the month-ish, depending on the week and the time. You can find us on Google Podcasts, on iTunes, on Spotify, stitcher acast on amazon podcasts

on pandora you name it we're there and on podbeamer this is all hosted and of course you can also always find our episodes on patreon.com slash girls goneon where we have all of these our patrons get a special RSS feed where they have access to all of our episodes for the public as well as bonus episodes once a month this month's episode is going to be our Robisode about Song of Ice and Fire's character

Rob Stark next month will be a His Dark Materials episode and stay tuned to learn what the topic for that will be yes as always thanks so much for listening i have been one of your hosts chloe and i have been another one of your hosts eliana we'll see you next month thank you winky goodbye