Girls Gone Canon Cast - His Dark Materials Episode 21 - The Amber Spyglass Chapters 17-19

Episode Date: November 26, 2021

Mary Malone discovers deeper meaning through the zalifs and their world. Lyra and Will seek their deaths.  --- Eliana's twitter: https://twitter.com/arhythmetric Eliana's reddit account: https://www.reddit.com/user/glass_table_girl Eliana's blog: https://themanyfacedblog.wordpress.com/ Chloe's twitter: https://twitter.com/liesandarbor Chloe's blog: www.liesandarborgold.com Intro: Waltz Of The Skeleton Keys by WombatNoisesAudio | https://soundcloud.com/user-734462061

you're listening to girls gone canon covering his dark materials Hello everyone, and welcome to Girls Gone Canon Reads His Dark Materials, Episode 21, The Amber Spyglass, Chapters 17-19. I am one of your hosts, Eliana. And I am another one of your hosts, Chloe. You know, for those listening, you might be listening to this in the future the present the past but eliana and i are recording this on a very magical day in the u.s in the states which is turkey day thanksgiving the day we give thanks to the giant birds the two a turkey the turkey loppy the turkey loppy yes i am so thankful for the turkey lapi for everything that the turkey lapi has given me

they are not quite like the tuolapi which are you know sometimes I read the term tuolapi and I think duolipa if you look at the word it's kind of similar I'm gonna need to see what the tuolapi look like in season 3 of his dark materials because I'm gonna photoshop to see what the Tualapi look like in season three of His Dark Materials.

I'm interested, yeah. Because I'm going to Photoshop Dua Lipa's head on that shit so fast. The Dua Lipa? The Dua Lipa. Truly, I don't know. You know, we talk about the Tualapi today in the first chapter that we'll get to. And I now I'm going to pronounce it the Dua Lipa for the rest of my life. Thank you for this, Eliana, this present, this Thanksgiving gift.

It's spelled almost the same. But the turkey loppy is different they they are actually weaker than the two loppy that which are predators but the turkey turkey loppy they are a prey and delicious they are delicious they are Wow. I'm the only one. We have exploited the turkey lappie already within two minutes of their creation. Damn. Well, we're excited to be spending our Thanksgiving right now with you, with you listeners, bringing you his dark materials. And we're thankful for you. We are thankful for you all for tuning in each month and listening uh so we have a couple announcements up top for you before we jump in today we will not have a december episode and i know that sounds disappointing so to

make up for that horrible sad statement we're gonna do two in january that's right one at the front one at the end will open up 2022 with his dark materials and not just open it up with his dark materials we have a special guest joining us in january we do yes we're gonna hit from the front then hit from the back we got we got cassidy helping us kick off the year our good friend cassidy i'm excited because cassidy is our bird watcher friend cassidy is very orny, right? No. But yes, Cassidy is our birdwatcher friend. And also, in a way, our red panda friend. Cassidy loves to tag me and Lo every time he finds a new red panda picture. Yes, our red panda aggrifer.

Yes. Resident zoologist. Resident orny person. Yes. Yeah. But they're always bringing us pictures of birds. We thought, why not bring words of birds to our friends? So Cassie will be joining us.

And especially because I want to say next month, the first three chapters, 2021-22 2021 22 will be covering have some birds of their own in them right some harpies but that's a little spoilery i'm not going to tell you much more about that because first eliana's going to give you our spoiler policy this is our very loose spoiler policy in which maybe we were good at keeping to it at the beginning but as we near the end i mean again honestly if you haven't just powered through the books yeah like it's been like a couple of years so i'm just kind of surprised i would have just given up and finished it and been like those girls are going too slow so we have everything up until the point of these chapters of the amber Spyglass in the main body of the episode.

And then afterwards, we have a dust-cussion in which we spoil everything else, such as the books of dust, the novellas, and the last few chapters of this book. But there aren't very many of those left. Yeah, as we get to the end, it's what we've been building up to yeah you've been reading along with us you're really brave for not skipping ahead and finishing like aliana said because we're at the point of the book where it's getting it gets pretty good i could not put the book down when i got to this part of the book originally so so we will try to stay on track with that as well as of course we will talk about the novellas the books of dust all the good stuff uh in that discussion and i know we won't go too heavy into it but there's some really cool stuff in here i found a couple connections so of course we will be covering three chapters today that is chapter 17

oil and locker 18 the suburbs of the dead and 19 lyra and her death i really like these chapters a lot and i i especially love 19 and but before we get into that we do want to point out as you all know and as we pointed out with cassidy how does cassidy share these red panda pictures with all of us on our discord if you are a patron in the thunder tier and above you have access to our discord How does Cassidy share these red panda pictures with all of us? On our Discord. If you are a patron in the Thunder tier and above, you have access to our Discord in which once a month we do have a happy hour slash brunch. We have not yet set the date for December, though. That'll be coming very soon for our patrons. you know another exciting thing that we're going to be doing next month is every month patrons get a bonus episode a special bonus episode of extra content that we uh serve up in a dish for you serve up just like the turkey loppy and i'm just kidding you shouldn't eat them uh next month we're

doing something a little different we're going to be covering the song of achilles a book by madeline miller and it's a great book, very sad, very wonderful about Patroclus and Achilles and their journey and some of the stuff that happens during the war with them. I really, really, really recommend you read it. I think you'll appreciate it. And we're going to talk about it for patrons in the Stranger tier and above next month. Yeah, I'm actually super excited to do this episode because I have never read these books. I have intended to, and this is finally, you know, giving me the push that I need to read these. So very excited.

And I think that a couple of other people, they don't know that they're excited for us to read these books, but they are. Such as, for example, our friend Zainab. Yes, Zainab was, that was really crazy because I do not believe zaynab knew no we were covering she doesn't but she must have just like had a a thing in her heart that said the girls are gonna do this indeed it was amazing indeed so i it just seems like it's right so i'm excited to really do these books. You're going to love. I think I am. I just know you are. I know I am. You're going to love this book.

I know I am. I cried very hard. You're going to cry. Oh, okay. Bitch. I can't wait for you to cry. Well, I mean, we're going to cry. We're going to cry like what in the next few episodes of I don't think I'm going to cry this one, but I could be surprised. I cried last. I could come close.

Amber Spyglass episode. I could be surprised. I cried last Amber Spyglass episode. Yeah, next episode are going to be some tears. And if Eliana edits it, she's leaving them in. I know she will. So keep an ear and an eye out for those tears in your stream next month. I'm just being like, people are crying. All right.

Well, without further ado, let's jump on in to chapter 17, Oil and Lacquer, which starts with a quote from Genesis. Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. Yes. My commentary on this is, ah, yes, subtle. First of all, here it's spelled S-U-M-T-I-L. S-U-B-T-I-L. S-U-b-t-i-l is ebb a new letter what is ebb um it's spelled s-u-b-t-i-l which is fun you know mixing it up with uh that that older english spelling not quite old english and That's old with an E.

Yes. Old with an E. And so it's fun because we had a book called The Subtle Knife and we have a subtle knife. And this is a subtle change in the verse. Oh, is it? A subtle to subtle change. Interesting. It's a very subtle change.

Yeah. Tell me. Because this isn't, I mean, it depends on what Bible you're reading right so this is genesis 3 1 uh so i'm sure pullman chose the most antique looking bible i'm just kidding uh one of the the versions of this the the fuller version now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field that the lord god had made and he said to the woman did god really say you must not eat from any tree in the garden? The woman answered the serpent, we may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden. I think the full passage is very interesting.

It's interesting because the serpent is kind of provoking Eve, right? And so some biblical interpretations look at this as the serpent provoking Eve to think, oh, God's not being fair. But Pullman reworks this in the context of this chapter, right? Mary learns and works to harvest the fruit that God's provided, or the dust that God is providing in this kind of scenario on her own throughout the chapter. She learns the ways of the earth, the ways of what the Zalephs, the Mulepha, are able to give her, what their land has, what she's able to kind of harvest and use from that land. And they help her as she kind of helps them and they reap and enjoy mutually

the fruit they grew, right? For Mary, it's the oil and lacquer mirror that she creates or the amber spyglass, really, that she sees the miracle of dust or seraph with so from that viewpoint it's interesting that this passage questions the fairness of god but what biblical analysis of genesis does usually ignore is why did god make the fucking fruit if he doesn't fucking want it to be shared with all of his fucking children equally wouldn't he be like don't eat this fruit it's for no one like why would he be like don't and then in the other context of schemes maybe right uh i don't know mary's seeing exactly that right like she's learning wait a second dust's beautiful actually like this is beautiful like

dust isn't bad or sinful it's fucking everywhere and everyone fucking has it around them and we'll also kind of see some of this passage from dredis's recontextualized from the left of themselves with their own history and folklore right with the whole being burst through the seed pod instead of the actual fruit in the bible so very clever very well done how he uses this quote at the top of the chapter to really put us into it absolutely that's a great that's a great extrapolation uses this quote at the top of the chapter to really put us into it absolutely that's a great that's a great extrapolation of this quote and how it fits into the rest of this chapter in mary's story uh the serpent winding around the trees you know she's playing the serpent and and she's playing in this chapter right she's playing as she has to construct a mirror to catch shadows

she does describe it as that way, and the Malefa have very little metal, as we've learned. It's forged and found in rivers and elsewhere, and the Malefa prefer to make things from wood, stone, cord, shell, and horn. Actually, when the Malefa marry, they exchange

bright strips of copper and bend it around the base of their horns. Not unlike a ring. And because of this, they findary's swiss knife extremely fascinating atal her good friend most of all she shows them all the different attachments such as for example the magnifying glass and uses the magnifying glass to burn a daisy design into a branch and watching the smoke she thinks you know if this ends up becoming fossilized a scientist who finds it in 10 million years will still find shadows on it there would still be shadows on it and i was kind of wondering why a daisy right well first of all

i'm sure it's like easy and fun but also here's a here's a fun little tidbit that the English daisy is also commonly used to be known as Mary's rose. I didn't know that, actually. Yeah, that is Mary. Good connection. And daisies from Celtic legend, they're supposed to symbolize purity and innocence, too. Like God would sprinkle daisies over the earth to cheer up parents who lost children so interesting that not only is it mary but it's also innocence right purity it's a little ironic for mary right the serpent atal asks her what she's dreaming of and mary tries to explain it all to them she doesn't really expect a tile to understand but a towel does a towel says the zeliff call it something similar to their word

for light what she's seeking with this glass saying the word slowly like the light on the water when it makes small ripples at sunset and the light comes off in bright flakes we call it that but it is a make like make like Make-like was their term for metaphor. I really like the term make-like. Oh, it's the new term we're using all the time. It's no longer metaphors. Oh, Eliana's make-like last episode about this was really great. Absolutely. We're going to kill it.

We're going to use it so much like turkey lappy. So the dust encompasses so many different ideas which i think is is really fun and for example we see dust referred to as shadows right especially in the subtle knife and it's also confirmed in mary's exchanges with the cave that dust is the same as dark matter which you know dark matter is like this real life hypothetical matter that inspired philip pullman in the creation of the series but throughout this chapter we're seeing that dust you know which is usually referred to with this very like dark language right like i mean literally dark matter and shadows suddenly we see that the malefa are really likening it to light right and that's their term for it. And so we also see Mary using a lens that examines it as

a sort of like, the language that's used kind of puts it within like wave-like properties. And whereas before dust, I mean, the very term itself, right? It's described as a particle. It's called the Ruzakov particles in the first portion of the story. So just as light acts as both a wave and a particle, you know, that wave-particle duality. And I think it's kind of fun to see all of these concepts that are being played with in, you know, how much dust encompasses. Yeah, and coming back to kind of that look at the lens, I love how it feels like such kind of a monotonous chapter for anyone that doesn't enjoy this, right? Like if you don't enjoy Pullman's work, and if you don't enjoy books or things or happiness, but no, like it went from the outer eye, like a chapter about a woman making a mirror, right? about a woman making a mirror right doing the layers and layers of bullcrap to make this thing for several days doesn't sound that interesting but it's also like discussing refracting lenses as we're about to get into like the objective lens and then the smaller eyepiece lens that are used

every day for science for glasses eliana you know you have four eyes. You get it. I know. I'm so weak. I think you're advanced, but you know, I mean, I'm ages behind you without them. With your perfect eyesight. Oh no, it's so hard. Ages behind.

Most of all, the kind of thing with the lens going on makes me think about refracting telescopes they work by using the two lenses to focus light and it makes it so it looks like an object is closer to you than it really is and mirrors of this shape differently but similarly accomplish the goal by bending light except they do it by reflecting the light instead of bending it as it passes through like what lenses do. So it's interesting because it's almost like when she makes the two sheets here as we get to this,

it turns into what she uses it as is a mirror at first to bend the light and have it pass between the lenses. So really interesting and interesting to look back at some of the science that we've already seen used and some of the machinery already used in the story compared to this absolutely and it's kind of a little reminiscent not in the way that like telescopes are but like uh tools that help us with light for example uh i mean that's how the whole series starts off right and and it's called out a little in this chapter in regards to Lord Asriel and that photogram. I would even add there's something about the duality of the two lenses being used that reminds me of the two metal alloys used in the machine to sever at Bullvanger as well as Asriel's machine. Interesting. Something about the two, two you know just having the

dual pieces involved we got two we got two kids and adam and eve maybe maybe is that is that the spoiler i don't know no one knows i mean she's been called eve throughout this whole thing so it goes to assumption so atal says that this is actually how we knew that mary was like you and not like the grazers even though you're so hideous uh she actually literally says this more or less because all the belefa have this light thing surrounding them and the word is pronounced shroff with a left flick word oh i flicked to the right with a left word flick of the trunk uh and mary is beyond psyched about this asking where it comes from and natal says it comes from them and from the oil the great seed

pod meals where they grow up or when they when they all grow up without the trees the shruff vanishes so with the wheels and the oil it stays with them again coming back to that machine in bull of anger right like the separation of your demon and the separation of the dust this is uh the science is happening here i'm getting the science i it all. There's a great line here. Again, Mary had to keep herself from becoming incoherent. Such a great line. Like, I know that this is scientific and cultural and linguist, like, dreamland, right? What Mary stumbled into.

And several times through this chapter, she's borderline, like, standing the Mulefa. She's like, wow, I'm a huge scientist nerd. she's borderline like standing the mulefa she's like wow i'm a huge scientist nerd uh this is totally a dreamland for her just learning everything in this rich culture that's getting kind of unraveled in front of us absolutely and it's not just like any any like science it is her area of focus right because she was studying shadows and she's like, how exciting for me. I get to continue, I don't know, my thesis or whatever. Mm-hmm. Yeah, without meaning to. Guess it's gonna go.

How exciting. Mary had begun to think children and adults react and attract shadows differently. Lyra had called shadows from her world dust. Whatever it was, this question, it had to do with the great change in human history symbolized in the story of Adam and Eve, with the temptation, the fall, and original sin. Now we're talking. Now we're getting into the meat of the sandwich. 30,000 years ago, something happened to birth's shadow particles. Development and evolution, something to make the human brain ideal to amplify the effects. Atal tells her there have been Mulefa for 33,000 years. Yes, Atal explains that they have history, memories, and wakefulness

since they had the Shroff. Before that, they remembered nothing. They discovered how to use the wheels, a creature with no name discovered a seed pod, and she began to play, but then saw a snake coiling itself through the seed pod the story goes that the snake said what do you know what do you remember what do you see ahead the zalief said nothing nothing nothing and the snake told her to put her foot through the

hole where he had been in the seed pod and the oil entered her blood helping her see clearly and she immediately saw the shroff and her and her kin were able to identify one another against the grazers name themselves and teach their children about the shroff as well i do have to say eliana's not flicking her trunk when she says it oh sorry right well i flicked it the wrong way the last time. I was like, clearly I don't know my right from my left. I would struggle so hard. I don't know my right from my left.

It's actually true. You just gotta. I do that. I do that all the time. Chloe's doing the thing where you have to hold up, like, make an L shape with your hands to figure out your right and your left. And I have to do that motion sometimes. It's really, really sad because you're not my only best friend who has to do that.

I'm worried. That's your thing, right? Eva is also the other person that does that, just so you know. You have a very specific taste in friends in which you cannot be with people. You know, they're right from my left. I am only best friends with uh only children who are women that are left-handed good for you what great people to choose i bet mary malone's left-handed i bet she is i hope she is it's my new headcanon so by following the snake's advice the mulefa

gained adam's knowledge his capacity for naming things and kind of, as we'll see at some point, for telling stories, actually, as we're learning now. Satan basically said in the story, what if God was really hiding this awesome oil from everyone because then they could be immortal too, lol, which is the foundation for like everything in the world, right? Like, what if somebody had a huge store of resources that would fix all the problems for everybody and they decided no one else should have it yep hmm what could it mean what could it all mean what could it mean and yeah there's something fun going on here about this idea of oral history and uh i'm gonna revisit some ideas from our 10th episode of his dark materials that was the

subtle knife chapters three and four and we we had discussed this a little in the discussion already maybe you've all heard it maybe you all again had finished the books by then so the dust discussion and uh mary and natal they have this conversation about the 3 000 years uh or the 33 000 years and then also as as you'll all remember during that subtle knife chapter we meet uh dr pain aka oliver mary's colleague and he has these fossil skulls that uh have shadows right that on them and up until like 30 to 40 000 years right after before then there's like not really any shadows on the skulls dr grumman aka joppery was studying societies that were 30 000 years old we we see something that says that the shadows are connected to right like the the story of adam and eve and the original

sin and that something happened um during this time 33 000 years ago and the similarities between the malefa and the story of adam and eve in in the lantern slides we also have something like anyways but i think pullman is playing around uh as we discussed back then with the idea of behavioral modernity um and that talks about like this shift in modern human capacity for language symbolic thinking culture art and so forth like that and it's very much about and as as its reference here with the snake asking so what do you remember um what do you see ahead what do you know now and that nothing nothing nothing it's very much about how you move information from one generation to the next

which is why i think it's really interesting in that idea of oral oral history right we don't see that the malefa necessarily have a written language as as far as I can tell. But they have this really, really rich culture, as you pointed out, Chloe, they know their history going all the way back to 33,000 years. Like, yeah, we know for sure that this Zalif existed. And Mary's astounded by that. It's something that isn't always valued in our own society. By modern society, I'm not going to say behavioral modernity i'm just saying modern society in general so yeah there's a there's definitely something interesting too in that like the question remains right like so before 33 000 years what what existed and consciousness right is why the lefa can even remember it right like they gained consciousness

33,000 years ago and there's something so magical so dusty so sruffy about that Pullman I guess picked this number it's a it's a fun number it's a good number uh I guess it wasn't like a single moment for us in real life and by us i mean as a as a people as a homo sapien species the big bang yeah on and off for like 50 000 years i bet the big bang took a long ass time probably for like people so yeah yeah i bet so mulefa seed pod and trees always lived together and helped one another out after the the consciousness was born there the sraf mary basically took all this while understanding maybe only 25 of a tall speech by the way there's something really interesting going on in the background of this chapter that she like

is like i have no clue what you guys are saying but i'm learning and she's trying to understand and she does figure out a lot just by body language alone. And by the end of all of this storytelling, she seems to have a much better command over the speech of the Mulefa. So I think that's so great how he outlines that. The subject's really sprawling, too, right? Like, she's trying to discuss science and dust with them, and it's not working so well to be an easy conversation. She contextualizes it, it though through the mirror metaphor sorry the mirror make like reflected light off the sea is polarized so maybe shadow particles could be polarized too she decides she's going to make a mirror out of the sap lacquer from

the smaller trees that are cultivated specifically for the mulefa's use and they gather the materials they have really good luck, thankfully. There's actually a great omen of luck that they catch three fish while they're gathering stuff, so it's supposed to be like a, yes, this scientific mission will be awesome. They turn the sap into a distilled fruit juice varnish, vinegar kind of varnish, painting the surfaces with it. And this has varying transparencies. Mary finds that curious as she

lacquers on the product, and she kind of is reminded of the mineral Iceland spar, which splits rays into two and makes you see double when you look through it. I was reading on this, and it's actually a transparent calcite. It's crystallized calcium carbonate. Originally, it's from Iceland, and it's used in demonstrating polarization of light the double refraction property of the crystal was important to understand the nature of light as a wave like from hugens and newton's work and it's kind of speculated that the sunstones used an old norse folklore and viking lore to seeble medieval icelandic texts was iceland spar they may have even used it for navigation and we're gonna see that this uh amber spyglass is important for maybe navigating life and the world um yeah i i really want a piece

of like iceland spar now just like hold around and play with it seems fun like looked it up images doubled behind it and the sap that's used to create this this lens right it's made of i mean the sap it's it's a kind it's resin right and resin as we know has played a really big role in this series from those cloud pines right the resin stuck on them to the sticks that lyra and will kept like running around to help uh yorick reforge the knife and amber amber is a type of fossilized resin so i realized only now that i'm like oh yes wow it really literally is an amber spyglass i thought it was just like a fancy regarding its color it's literally an amber spyglass but except for the part where it's not fossilized i mean there's a lot in the story right that focuses on that word amber and barrick if you will you get a reminder of unbarric lights in the next chapter and electrum slash electric and how that's one of like the

branching off points from will's world and lyra this very specific element or not element but like material and it's the same thing right it's the same object or mineral sorry material um that's doubled it occupies these different spaces it's almost a double refraction of amber i'm gonna call it amber because we call it that in our world no i really love that and we'll get to see kind of more of these details of kind of the monotony that she had to go through just to get it perfect you know the way she wants it she remembers once quoting keats to lyra and reminds herself she needs to put herself into that alethiometer state of mind to be able to kind of get this mirror and its best intentions carved into it. She works her way into one, grinding at wood with sandstone, and then visits the lacquer grove again with a towel where they get supplies to make more varnish, which she applies with a cottony fiber from a plant.

And she paints it over and over and over, at least 40 coats, letting it cure, layering it thickly. The surface is at least 5 millimeters thick by now, and the next day she spends polishing it until her arm and head aches. And she then helps the next day with some of the work that needs to be done around the community. She does what they call knotting wood, where they create kind of a lattice of sorts with grown weaving and sticks. And she fits into some of these little corners that the Mulefa, the Zaliths, cannot.

So she helps them in that manner. I like what you're saying about how the resin is so important here, right? And to an extent, it almost reminds me of how the blood moss is used for them bodily. But the resin coming back here it makes this even more akin to the knife forging scene right to the intention craft to the knife forging all of the chapters we talked about last month basically the forging of the mirror is a mirror to the forging of the knife even along with with the make-like, the metaphor, that Will has to forge it together with his mind, has to hold it together, and Mary has to kind of forge these mirrors

together with her mind as well. Especially important coming after this big conversation that without knowledge, these beings would know nothing upon their birth, and also with Yorick and Will talking about, you know you know like the intentions of the people that made the knife are bad does that still mean that this is a bad weapon are we doing a bad thing am i doing a bad thing and you know science isn't always used for good as we know not always yeah and the sort of knowledge that comes around the knife and and yorick going through it anyway i really like what you said last episode of like i mean is this that episode right that behavioral modernity that leads the panther

to becoming a sort of human as well right their own consciousness this disobedience on their part so yeah maybe lyra will see york one day spoiler anyways mary plays around with her experiment mirror the next day but it only shows her a faint reflection and then she's like oh i don't want to have to make another prototype this one took so much work which is a very relatable feeling she brainstorms ways to fix it and realizes, all right, so I'm going to try cutting the wood away and just leave the lacquer, right? How she wishes it. And off she goes.

She makes a mess. She wonders if she should, I don't know, soak it in water and knows it's not going to soften the lacquer because one of the malefa, who's like a very expert crafts the leaf, shows her a liquid that would eat through the wood. And it looked and smelled like an acid and so they swab it onto the wood and her guide and all of this tells her all right this is how we

make the solvent so gradually the wood comes free and mary is left with a sheet of clear brown yellow lacquer and she polishes both sides until they're smooth and fine and then she gazes through it at first she sees nothing in, but it does show her that double image that Chloe was talking about. We have a line of, she wondered what would happen if she looked through two pieces, one on top of the other. After reworking and reworking, she makes two sheets and she looks again. The color is a denser amber, but the image has disappeared. There are no signs of shadows, so she pulls the sheets apart, watching them change the landscape around her. And she realizes something's changed after she pulls the sheets apart and looks again. Everything seems brighter

and more vivid. Etal comes to check on her, and Mary explains what she found, while Etal motions that, you know, we should be grooming each other, which is a common occurrence between the Zealiff. So Mary lets Atal tidy her hair, and she enjoys how the trunk is lifting it and letting it fall and massaging her scalp. Mary, in return, is soothing Atal, examining her seed pods and rubbing her wheels. She can tell that Atal is kind of anxious. Atal is young and unmarried. She seems anxious about her future.

There are no young males in this group and ital would have to marry an outsider someone she doesn't know she's gonna have to get stolen yeah it's hard you know get on twitter ital oh that's someone good oh yes ital on tinder oh my god at ital uh mary's happy of course to calmly clean her friend in return, and she smooths the fragrant oil over Etal's claws while Etal tends to her hair. Eventually they part. Etal is going to help with dinner while Mary goes back to working on science with Amber. This time, as she goes back to work, she sees golden sparkles surrounding Etal's retreating form, and only through the part of the lacquer that she touched with her oily hands. She calls for Etal, asking her if she could have just a little more oil to put into the lacquer. She coats one more piece of film, rubbing the plates evenly to spread it, and looks through it again.

She can see so many goddamn shadows, just like Asriel's photograph. Everywhere she looks, golden sparkles move in a current of purpose. Conscious beings had more light than anything else. I didn't know it was beautiful, Mary said to Etel. Why, of course it is, her friend replied. It is strange to think that you couldn't see it. Look at the little one. She indicated one of the small children playing in the long grass, sleeping clumsily after grasshoppers. Suddenly stopping to examine the leaf, falling falling over scrambling up again to rush and tell his mother something being distracted again by a piece of stick trying to pick it up biting ants on his trunk and hooting with agitation there was a golden haze around him

as there was around the shelters the fishing nets the evening fire stronger than theirs though not by much but unlike theirs it was full of little swirling currents of intention that eddied and broke off and drifted about to disappear as new ones were born and now atel says that mary can see dust mary you gotta come with me i love this i love this entire this is uh you know i'm gonna have a couple small critiques at the end of the chapter we'll talk about. But the first like two thirds of this chapter is just art. It's just like beautiful how he just describes the lacquer process and describes the community of the Zaliths and how they help each other. And even here for Mary, right?

Like seeing dust, this awakening for Mary is born out of a pure friendship with her and ital like it's born out of her and her bff canoodling like gfs you know like they're just hanging out she accidentally was blessed with this oil and boom she made this discovery and it's just beautiful to watch it born out of love and out of something from the heart uh especially especially just watching like atal does not give a shit about mary's experiments she gives a shit that mary gives about her experiments but atal has no interest in this and it's made clear in the text that atal is like okay well you have fun mary i'm gonna go now i'm gonna go make dinner enjoy doing all this and it's like just from the outside

looking in at them like that's a beautiful balance of friendship right like you don't need to love the same things you don't need to both be working on making a lacquered mirror one of you can go like draw on a coloring book and the other can go do her hair and you're still friends afterwards and I just think that's like a a really good representation it's the most positive relationship in the story truly Atal and Mary you think it's the most positive relationship in the story truly a tal and mary you think it's the most positive i mean it's a very much a positive one but it and as you said right great representation and friendship and yeah they're just like i don't know come hang out with me later right when you're done with your thing you're boring ass science she's like mary you hideous loser

it's the best friend she's ever had is what i'm saying yes yeah but um that you said right that the oil comes from this um and it's like both from mary's hands i think a little and also thefa's, and that the lenses also work when they're hand-width apart. I just also really love those details, right? Because besides Mary's musings on how this object and anything that she has ever consciously worked on will be seen to have dust in a bazillion years, that we know thanks to those skulls, dust like in a bazillion years uh that we know thanks to those skulls uh like that it works like hand with a part really goes well poetic poetically i think with that idea of like human intention and work right because often we'll see that hands serve as a sort of make like for for work and

intention um across a lot of stories and same as the oil from the malefa and and her own hands right she's kind of like anointing this and it it's very deliberate it gives it a sense of it needs to have this humanity in order to get the lens to work the malefa began to come out appearing from their shelters along the river at the hills watching mary etal says they will not hurt her and to come with her she urges her toward the mound at the edge off the village and says satomax will speak a stranger to mary not as al if she knew the oldest of the mulafa that she had met yet he moved stiffly as if he had arthritis same she steals a glance through her lacquered glass and sees his shadow cloud is rich and complex

and she already feels such a great respect for him without even knowing him he speaks in rich tones greeting her grateful to grateful for her quick learning of their language and their ways and now for her learning of sraf he invites her to his side and she gives a very gracious speech in return thanking them for their help in making the glass and letting her observe them satomax then explains to her the Tulapi will kill them all if she doesn't help them bring dust, which is disappearing, partially because of the Tulapi killing them off. Dust is also disappearing

because the trees have suddenly started sickening and producing most of it because of something that happened 300 years ago. Hmm. I wonder what else that was significant in this entire series happened 300 years ago that is related to dust or maybe figures made out of dust disappearing interesting i guess we'll never know. Interesting. Interesting. Sadomax says that Mary is like the person for this job too, to, you know,

to bring back the dust that may or may not have disappeared. And he says, she understands the sraf, the balance that is needed to bring back this to their people. And he's like, you just put together a sraf instrument within a few days like you're perfect you're the warrior we need to get out there and deal with the dust the dust buster we need sata max sata max i actually really like his name i was like i wanted to just kind of understand why

pullman put this name together like this so i looked up some of the roots of the name and Seda has a couple different meanings as a root. Seven, for example, an abstract noun formed from the verbal root bud, to wake, to become aware, to know, to notice or understand. I thought that was very interesting, especially and then of course, Max, you know, like Maximilian, Maximus meaning the greatest so the greatest understanding the greatest most aware of the zalif is what sata max's name really means he does seem to be that way based on the cloud of dust that mary saw around him he should have a really big beard oh like a really long ancient oh my god are they gonna give the mulef a beard facial hair some of them that she said like some of them have hair right around their trunks so they could have beards i feel like yeah i should be saying shraf more you know then swing to the left i don't know

if you gotta like gap every time you say shraf shraf just like it is kind of a dab you right you're right yeah mary is a little worried about all this right she's worried that they're overestimating her abilities uh but she she's gonna try her damnedest for sure and this is where i do want to bring in some of the critique there's some language here and just the way it's written that the first two thirds of this chapter are great they They are like really well done. They are like, like I said, just a great reading, great landscape to get through, great like metaphors and just really great prose. But then you get to this. It's kind of a rush scene and that's fine.

But it's like Mary Malone gets all of a sudden ushered by all of the Mulefa and put into this middle and she has to like give a speech out of nowhere and there's this line when Sadamax called on her she felt like a school girl being called on in class uh I don't know if the tone's just off or what but it's all such a sudden change in pacing in the chapter and the tone is very elementary and I know Pullman has a great connection to teaching and I'm sure Mary was stuck in school for most of her fucking life right uh but that and all this sudden change with the Zalif's coming from all over out now you have to save us you made this mirror you're one of us now

I don't know it just felt a little stylus a little tacky that's all I still like it I still like the chapter but it just felt a little tacky yeah I mean the the rest of the chapter is really good and the next two chapters I really love and I the idea of all the malefa from the different you know villages coming here it's kind of interesting it reminds me a little bit of the gyptian roping but but like you're it this specific area like you said it's written a little cheesy and is kind of off i mean uh first of all as we find out like all the malefa had to do they just had to like neg mary for being such an uggo to get her to agree to this plan we are you hideous loser thank you for making us this thing um i kind of wondered i had a side thought of like

do they think she's hideous right they call mary as they're like you're perfect for this job because you're so bird-like and she's very flattered at this she's like oh i love being described as a bird and i i think that's interesting but also on a separate thought do they think of her as a bird and ugly because the Tuolapi, which are their enemies, are a little reminiscent of birds in my head? I don't know. But also, obviously, you know, no one's really hideous in this. But also, I don't know. Maybe this is true for, I don't know.

But also, in regards to what you were saying about it being cheesy, I don't know if it's, like, an accurate way to say that I feel this way about it, but, like, because, you know, the malefa, they are a different species, right? They're a human, in a way, in terms of their soul and how they produce dust, but they are a different species. But some of it is like oh mary thank you so much for coming from this other place oh you were perfect for this job of saving all of us feels a little white savior-y to me but that's just i don't know you know and maybe that's also and it's something that we'll kind of bring up in the next chapter at the end of chapter i think

there's some parallel meant to be happening here against you know lyra right choosing her destiny and here mary is choosing you know this is her choice to help them in the end like will you do this will you do this thing mary malone and mary malone is saying yes yes i will do this thing for you so it is very like mary malone chose her destiny and i get. But I see what you're saying completely. I think it's meant to have some parallels there. And I think maybe just the tone. I think it's just a tone shift maybe that went a little awry. Yeah.

Well, meanwhile, on the other side of all this, big tone shift. You guys ready for a last second tone shift? Let's head over towards Chittagotse, father gomez is making his way through olive trees the air is full of cicadas and crickets and after passing through a village he gains a new lead on the woman he's following who went into the mountains he heads towards that location hoping to find more info from an older couple and possibly eat some motherfucking cheese yes so that brings us to chapter 18 the suburbs of the dead and this one opens up with oh that it were possible we might but hold some two days conference with the dead from john webster so this is from the duchess of

malfi by john webster originally published as the tragedy of the duchess of Malfi by John Webster, originally published as The Tragedy of the Duchess of Malfi. It's kind of a Jacobian revenge tragedy, which seals his place as Shakespeare's successor in writing to most. And it takes place in Roman Catholic Italy, exploring love and male authority in a very traditional society that kind of sees women as the wills of men. It follows a duchess who's a young widow in love with a lower class man named Antonio. I'm like, wow, Mrs. Coulter. But her brothers, her brothers, the Duke and the Cardinal don't approve of her marrying this man. So duchess and Antonio secretly marry and they have three children. They're found out they try to run but only Antonio and the eldest child escape. The d Duchess is betrayed by her servant who is secretly working for Ferdinand and her and the youngest children are executed. Eventually though, the servant feels guilty and

has kind of a change of mind and swears to get vengeance for the Duchess after they kill her. She's like, I didn't think they were going to kill her. And it escalates to kind of just a bunch of violence and the Cardinal confesses his role in the murders to his mistress, who he then murders. And the servant then accidentally kills Antonio, the good guy, thinking he's the cardinal coming back. And then finally is about to get the vengeance on the cardinal when the cardinal and Ferdinand end up killing each other in a brawl. It basically ends with the eldest son taking his place as heir to Malfi after all of this seamless violence. And it's kind of a scenic and tragedy, Augustan literature influenced, right, focusing on revenge. And the last act heavily leans on

the idea that the brothers have unleashed hell on earth. It's also leaning really heavily on the themes of class. The characters who seem to care the most about class in the story are actually the ones doing the most damage to the world. While meanwhile, the Duchess in the front fights for equality for a man's worth. So a couple of really interesting themes that are in that play. It makes me wonder how much of this he, you know, a lot of these front little poems are great some of them are perfect and they tie into the chapter but some of them you know pullman's just like ah good poem makes me think of this chapter i'm gonna write it here so interesting for this play

the duchess of malfi yeah i wonder if he's like finds it as you said really really tied in or if he's just like oh i like this song lyric let me include it in my away message slash book. Really, truly, though, I do think that like, I think some of these are, I mean, the next one, I really like too, but I can see where it actually ties into the chapter versus the actual thought of what the next poem in the next chapter is. So's a couple of those i like the beginning so i think it uh it's a good thinker it's a good navel yeah like i wonder if he expects like in his head i bet he goes i hope someone looks this up i hope someone knows what this is it's probably kind of his way of doing sort of like recommendations too like if you like his dark materials here's what i based it all on in my brain yeah lyra wakes up

before dawn to a deafening silence and will is fast asleep because i mean is it a chapter if anyone especially lyra does not start out or asleep at some point will's head is on the knapsack to protect the knife and lyra tucks his cloak around him and she's pretending she was taking care to avoid his demon as she tucks it around him and she thinks that his demon would be maybe cat-formed and she's like, she must be here somewhere Lyra and Pan sit on a sand dune quietly chatting about their disdain and mistrust of the Galabaspians

and they realize that while we can't really trick them, they're too clever and pan is a hawk while saying all of this the sun is beginning to climb in the sky and lyra is watching chevalier tiales who is also standing and watching from near will's head and so with hindsight it's actually kind of taken me a bit to understand i'm like i don't understand why like they have such animosity right the children have such animosity towards the gallabespians but uh rereading these chapters i i kind of wanted to dig into that but lyra's impassioned speech and altercation with tialis in the next chapter i think really goes to show why they're so at odds versus these other guardians that lyra and will have had right that lyra has very much trusted such as as Merry and Lee and Seraphina and Yorick and the Gyptians. All of these people have had Lyra and Will's best interests at heart. And the Galabaspians, they've been pretty forthcoming

with at the moment they do not, right? They made it clear that they have their own goals, that they feel are bigger than the children and most of all they have these weapons that they wielded and have made very clear that they are threatening the children with them this whole time and obviously our previous surrogate parents a lot of them are very dangerous people formidable in their own ways especially yorick who is a murderer just like will and that therefore makes him great um but they have never threatened our own heroes with that violence there's very much trust that the children have with them that the danger that they pose is never directed towards will or lyra

whereas the gallop espions have clearly done very little to inspire such trust thus far and and like mrs coulter they actually use that danger and the threat of violence to corral the children like this animosity towards them uh the trust isn't there and i wonder if they're going to be gaining that trust through the next few chapters or something will change and i do find it interesting i haven't read the books but the ender's game books you know by that dude uh there's this thing there's a villain and my husband has explained to me that there's this villain in ender's game that like is so separated like humanity wise and culturally like they don't see others as like a problem or they don't see the other people in their culture and their place as a

problem they see everybody below them as just like these worker ants and so the way they're set up and similar to the galavespians right like the galavespians are set up to die they birth they war they die they don't see other all these underlings like humans they just see as ants in their mind or like big ants right super big so i do find it really fascinating that like seems the galavespians have no kind of footing in understanding humanity or what any of it means necessarily or what it means to them i find that really interesting and i hope they find the humanity the huge humanity as they go the huge humanity the turkey loppy yeah they're they're just as you said doing their duty they're just, as you said, doing their duty. They're just obeying orders NBC that later on,

Mentale says, like, I should have punished you. I mean, like, obviously, they probably come from a culture where they expect children to be very well-behaved and deferent, and Lyra is definitely not that. She has been raised with, in some ways, some love and has been given license to run free. And, I mean, the Galavespians working with the kids right we find out that the big people that people who are our size in their world are the agents of the authority in many ways so i i guess

maybe they're just predisposed to be like fuck these kids fuck them kids these misbehaved children yeah yeah well the fighting between the galavespians and lyra and will is certainly comical and i'm always here for it lyra says that it really doesn't matter what these little shitheads say because they have to follow them they have to get to asriel and And Pan tries to remind her, well, they have poisonous stingers that they could threaten Will with. And they can make you guys behave. You and me, Pan and Lyra, behave. Lyra thinks, and she's like, oh, yeah. And she remembers Colter's scream of pain, thinking, well, maybe they'll think Will is cold-hearted.

And maybe he could at least get away and watch us die, which, okay, as if. As if. Yeah. least get away and watch us die which okay as if as if yeah she takes out the alethiometer and she goes into a trance-like state to allow her to read it and she asks how can we get rid of the spies the response is to follow the knife and go onward so coming back again to that idea right of the knife of this little object itself having its own will. I like that the alethiometer says to- It's literal will. Yeah, yeah, its own literal will, but also its own intentions, right, because

it's saying to follow the knife and where it goes. And I think that kind of directly solidifies that warning, because it's saying, well, if you're following the knife, the knife can direct you. So Lyra returns to the main area of the cave cave and tialis is sending off a lodestone message she's like oh are you texting no um but she's like oh so have you spoken to lord asriel and tialis is a messaging representative and then asks if then lyra asks a lot of like you know very probing child questions of like so are you and lady salmakia married and then like do you have any kids are you in love whatever and the dragonflies are still

asleep though on the cobwebs and cords and tally speaks very quietly masalmakia too quiet for larry to hear and she watches them sip on dew drops to refresh themselves and she's like that seems kind of fun sipping on little dew drops and and i just think of you know the dragonflies are the only children they will ever have kind of like that other series dragons are the only children i will ever i'm sorry i'm broken as my brain's broken um will wakes and lyra asks him to come privately speak with her but the galvespians give them an ultimatum alright if you want to speak privately you gotta leave the knife or you have to talk in front of us

so they reluctantly agree leaving the knife to go chat and Lyra tells him that alright well the Alethiometer told me that we should follow the knife and that you know what we're just not gonna tell the Galavespians our plan we're just gonna surprise them you know not give them an advance warning take them to the land of the dead whatever and speaking of secrets will shares that you know your things that the knife broke because

i thought of my mom i've just been really lucky ever since then to not think of my mom as i'm trying to use the knife and so they're like well, well, follow the knife it is. And they follow it back to the camp group. And they follow it back to the group camp where the Galavespians ask, so what is your plan? As if they, you know, didn't just vow like, we're not going to tell them anything. Yeah, Will tells them, well, we're not going to Asriel right now. We will later, not now.

And Lyra's like, yeah, you'll have to come along without knowing what our plan is. So just deal with it. Will asks them to guarantee they won't harm them. Something more than a promise. And Tialis is like, I'll yield the lodestone resonator into your care, but you have to tell me your intentions. Lyra tells them, well, we're going to the world of the dead. And Salmaki and Tialis are are like that's a fake made-up place and will says i too didn't think it was real but now seems a little bit like it's real lyra explains

the why which is roger and will's dad tialis tries to tell lyra that after death everything vanishes nothing happens after that nothing lives on and lyra's like well i'm gonna find out if that's true mr tialis then she says please give me your lodestone resonator as promised i will be taking that they work to find a world with some right they're grounded grounded tialis uh they work to find a world to cut into with food and water and the galavaspians mount upon their dragonflies. Will feels his knife, his card, which he knows he could buy some familiar food with, or call and hear an update on his mom from Mrs. Cooper.

Wait a second, I thought we weren't thinking about her, William. Yes. He feels the knife jar. He stops thinking about his mom, which sucks. And then he opens a window and they end up in some northern country like Holland or Denmark. The open stable seems inviting, but once they get inside, and then he opens a window and they end up in some northern country like holland or denmark the open stable seems inviting but once they get inside lyra finds four dead horses and millions

of flies they see someone dead in the garden and they go to scout the kitchen out where it doesn't quite stink as badly yeah so i don't know this just felt kind of like a fun easter eggish thing of like the concept of the force for horsemen of the apocalypse the conquest war famine and death especially death i mean it felt so pointed that it was four i noticed that immediately felt significant and of course it kind of brings on the world of the dead right it makes him go huh is this the world of the dead but no not yet not quite there they grab some rye bread and cheese from the kitchen and will leaves a gold toint a gold coin on the table tialis eyeballs them and they tell tialis you should always pay for what you take great connection there right with the

coins in jordan placed on the scholar's tombs lyra had learned not to steal from death with roger right with the shades that came at night to scare her additionally this reminds me of hades the hit video game that i've been hyper focused on for like two to three months that you can like steal from karen and he fights you like you can accidentally be like oh thanks for the money and he'll be like i don't think so bitch let's fight very fun very fun yeah that man works hard for for that money he's gotta row you across the river. Row all these people. We've also got a great

way, I think, that Lyra's like, oh, you gotta pay for shit. That shows Lyra's growth and development, especially in regards to the influence that Will had on her, because in Shinigatsai, she was like, what the fuck are you doing? When Will was paying for something because no one was there. So, big lulz that lyra acting like she wasn't just stealing things a

book ago i'm like okay lyra i'm pretty sure she's still in like in this book she's still like stealing i don't know maybe yeah probably oh we gotta worry about that girl selmakia flies in and she warns them that men with weaponry are on their way here maybe. Yeah. Probably. I'd worry about that girl. Salmakia flies in and she warns them that men with weaponry are on their way here while a village is burning beyond. They decide to go. Will tries to open a window, but the only problem?

The fabric of the world here is super thick. So when he cuts a hole, the world he opens is actually the exact same world that it looks like they're already in. They have to push super hard against an invisible resistance to get through and once through they shut the soldiers from the other world out they land in a kitchen where another figure is with them the man that will had seen not 10 minutes before dead in the bushes is here in the kitchen he's middle-aged

lean he looks paralyzed and a little crazed, clutching the table, opening his mouth to speak, and closing it and pointing at the children. They apologize for the break-in, and Lyra introduces them. She asks his name, and he answers, He's dead. He knows he is. They aren't dead, but he is. It's a really long name.

Meanwhile, the dragonflies are not liking his helter-skelter death shebang, and the Galavespians are trying to control them.'s not happy either he's trying to get away and lyra's holding him still to her chest the man is still trying to understand what happened to him and he reaches out his hand as will asks if he's a ghost will tries to take his hands but his fingers close through the air and all he feels is cold he says his name was dirkansen, but now he's dead and he thinks he's going to hell. He doesn't know where to go. I just, maybe because I just recently read like dying in the light,

but I just want to know like the name Dirk had such a death grip on like every male, like sci-fi fantasy writer of a certain age, like Dirk, the name Dirk was like everywhere. What is with Dirk? It kind of reminded me of another character, which we won't talk about that comes up in the dust books but it reminds me of dick orchard just in the r's and the d's i feel like dick like isn't as weird to me but like i mean

not you know it's it's a more common name i guess but dirk i'm like i don't know anyone named dirk it is interesting i don't think i've met anyone named dirk there isn't there dirk in homestuck or something maybe see that's what i mean well very popular it's like a popular sci-fi fantasy name you're like oh you have a fantasy series throw in someone named dirk will looks at the barn the garden and the entire place everything isn't unchanged right the man's body is still out there as well untouched Will looks at the barn, the garden, and the entire place. Everything is unchanged, right? The man's body is still out there as well, untouched. Dirk Jansen groans helplessly, muttering that he can't stay

and that the farm has changed, that it's wrong. And so, as you're all going to find out very soon, we're on the other side, right? The other side. It's a sort of mirror world in almost every way even the description of how the knife gets into here along with that thickness there's also something of it seeming to slide along a smooth surface like that of a mirror as steven said so i think it's kind of fun because in the last chapter mary was initially trying to make a mirror but ends up making these lenses speaking of which um

at first allows you to see double we're seeing double of Dirk right now and a bunch of the dead people and it's it's a double refraction right where you can see the body and the spirit is split and that the same person seen in the same place slash world in a way but but the other side right of the light it shows the dead body and and the other side of that world the spirit the difficulty it took to get through that hole that they cut and how it's just like the mirror on the other side just slightly darker salmachia flies down perching on lyra's hand and whispering there are people walking from the village like this man all in one direction. Will declares they'll go with them.

They'll follow the dead. The figures begin to come towards them as they do so, and when Dirk sees the ghosts, he breaks into a run to greet them and join them. Will wonders if these people had demons in this world, and he and Lyra discuss that had they not been told, they weren't sure they would know this man was a ghost. They don't look normal will remembers men who used to walk the shops holding a same plastic bag will himself says he used to pretend to be a ghost will says maybe my world's full of ghosts and i never knew creepy and i love that so much and it kind of reminds me of the victims of the specters a little bit right because they're described as still being there kind of just not there uh and it even reminds me of that first

meet with angelica and paulo where are the grown-ups the girl's eyes narrowed didn't the specters come to your city so for will saying maybe my world's full of ghosts angelica here is there from a world that's already dealt with that, right? This is normal. The ghosts taking over and crowding the city. And here, even when they all leave, they echo that appearance of the specters, the gray mist that's clinging to the air in the wake of these ghostly people. It's really interesting. It is.

It is. Like you said, kind of really haunting and and sad the idea that maybe our world's full of ghosts and i never knew big sad because i guess you can easily tell in lyra's world anyway um well lyra says as we've been saying this must be the world of the dead uh not quite but almost the soldiers must have killed these people and she thought it would be a lot more different this land of the dead and suddenly the world is fading around them as they walk on not unlike the time that will had watched an eclipse of the sun as he stepped through to chitagatse from his world like when the dead moon circus comes the daylight fades into an eerie twilight

as if strength is draining out of a dying sun ah the dying of the light um things lose definition and blur colors leaving the world everything but the electric blue and red and yellow of the dragonflies and their riders will and lyra take a step towards the ghosts telling them that they won't hurt them asking where they're going they look to the oldest man among them who seems to be their guide there's a lot paralleling mary's chapter here right we have the the anti-parallel and that here the color is fleeting it's flying from the world where mary suddenly got more color after using the amber spyglass right everything became more vivid and not only that but the head ghost this is the older respectable head ghost man compared to

the zalif right to satamax who's the wise zalif of the mulefa yeah and and also a little bit of that anti-parallel as you're saying right because later on we find out that the old man's all like oh when we get to the land of the dead the sinners are going to be separated from the those who kept the faith or whatever, basically. And he's like, shut up, old man. Anyways, the man says he feels like he knows where to go, but he can't remember learning it. He's like, eh, they'll know when

they get there. A child asks his mother why it's getting dark out, and she hushes them, telling them that they're dead, and they're going to go see grandpa. And the child weeps bitterly inconsolable others in the group look on either sympathetic or maybe even annoyed all they can do is continue to walk into the fading landscape chevalier skims ahead to get a peek and salmachia explains to them that she thinks that the landscape is fading because the people are forgetting

the farther they go the darker it gets they all argue about why the people of the dead are leaving and lara says she'd want to stay somewhere familiar if she were a ghost but will says well i don't know they're probably unhappy and afraid here i mean they did die here so you know it is very uh as we go down into the underworld it is very elysium right the people are there but as in their deaths and they're forgetting they're choosing to forget also not unlike korra right when they're in the the fogginess oh yes when tenzin goes in the fog and everyone's forgetting uh the ghost walks steadily peeking at will and lyra from time to time until the oldest man finally says why are you following us you're not dead you're

not ghosts they explain they were escaping the soldiers too and that they are trying to follow the group and they ask you know hey how did you know to go here like what what told you to go here and the ghost says well i don't know we just knew we we think we'll be told more when we arrive where we're going they'll tell us and then he goes and then sinners and righteous will be separated and it's no good praying now you should have done all that before which yes again like you said aliana whoa whoa whoa like slow your roll slow your wheels there ghost man he uh quite obviously expects to be put in one group over the other and thinks that very few people will be in that group with him and the other ghosts are

listening to him kind of uneasily but on they walk eventually chevalier comes back and salmachia meets him in air speeding back to the kids there's a town ahead that looks like a refugee camp centuries old the cry of birds and people ring loudly, and people keep arriving from all different directions, just like the ghosts they're with now. Eventually, Lyra, exasperated, exclaims to Will, how are we going to help all of these people? Will is like, I have no clue. So they are in the same shoes and boat as Mary Malone right right now right as all of the mulefa came from all the villages from all over and on the horizon they see thousands of men women children drifting over the plains and the ground becomes softer and slopes down into mud and the air becomes acidic

full of smoke garbage sewage decay and the mist rises ahead it rose like a cliff to merge with the gloomy sky and from somewhere inside it came those bird cries tialis referred to between the waste heaps in the mist there lay the first town of the dead he's not taking it easy on that whole corruption greed capitalism thematic thing huh phil has got it out there he put it out there it's almost like he wants it as a theme in this story maybe i don't know i don't know i do think this is a powerful ending compared to that last chapter right mary's chapter is haunted by bird cries too the tuolapi and while she seems to be in a paradise after looking through her amber tinted glasses so to speak she sees the truth as being hidden and as lyra and will are cutting into this desolate world they too are

finding the truth with the bird calls ringing around them has been hidden it is and i think we'll expand on this theme a little bit more but i also just love this idea of like the first town of the dead right um as we are currently in the suburbs of the dead as the chapter says and we're gonna meet some people there in those suburbs for example chapter 19 lyra and her death we have opened it up with this line of i was angry with my friend i told my wrath my wrath did end from william blake mr blake in the house we know we like mr william blake here this is uh this is from a poem a poison tree by william blake from songs of experience uh originally it was titled christian forbearance if that says anything to you yeah it's a first person poem real short short, metaphoric, four stanzas.

And it relates how in being angry with a foe versus being angry with a friend, when you're angry with your foe, the anger grows because you don't tell your foe that you're angry with them, right? They're a foe. Why would you go chit chat with your enemy? But if you talk to your friend and you tell them you're angry, example given, Eliana, if I was annoyed with you, I would simply say stop being the way you are. But if I was like, the patriarchy sucks, fuck the patriarchy, the patriarchy is not going to do anything in response. They are not going to hear me. So the next two lines in first stanza actually relate that.

They say, I was angry with my foe. I told it not. My wrath did grow. say i was angry with my foe i told it not my wrath did grow so he later relates in this poem the anger growing into an apple which seems to kind of symbolize vengeance and the enemy eating the apple instead of william blake waiting for karma or fate or whatever power to decide he's kind of going ahead and doing it for him right little little murder little vengeance now his enemy is dying in vengeance and i think uh i think that line really probably is like we said earlier one of those things that just made him go oh

yeah reminds me of lyra and her death you know and the wrath and the wrath which i see how he's splitting that dichotomy but i like it otherwise really great poem we love william blake in this house i recommend it i recommend all the poems on experience they're good well i mean all that imagery very much fits into right like this this book the eating of apples and apples meaning something and in regards to the story of adam and eve but also i read this line and what you're saying about it regarding friends and foes as maybe it was about uh the little not little but like the big argument that lyra and tiales are going to have towards the end of this chapter and that does bring up death death is like oh hello but before we get there let's talk about this town the town is burned and in ruins, though some of the parts of it have been repaired over the years.

And the ghosts are hurrying towards it from every direction. They seem to know where they are going, even if the center of town is becoming more and more confusing to Will and Lyra. The dead are suddenly stopped, and a thin man who is not a ghost tells them that they need to wait because they cannot go through as they are not dead and they must stay in the holding area i like all of the uh kind of the office work they've brought that's

been brought into this right it's become very systemic like all right where are your papers where's your id your voter registration you know all the good stuff going on here and it's very semi-reminiscent of like going to a dmv right yes it is it's so monotonous so monotonous i'm like all right get in line at the dmv uh but believe it or not this is like this scene i think is a a really great one for that and that kind of trope because i think it's used very often in many medias whether sci-fi fantasy etc that follow kind of the uh the underworld look at things and going to the underworld because it's probably just a corporate place just like every other in america no i'm just kidding uh there's also an episode of the magicians that i kind of was like thinking

about while reading this and i'm like huh I wonder if the writers of the magicians when they wrote this episode for the show not the book the book is very different and does not have this same scene but they go basically to an underworld and someone is missing part of their soul and they're trying to find it and get back and as I said that to myself I was like oh wait that's just that's what they're doing it's the same thing so i wonder i wonder if the magicians read that as well i would not be surprised i've only watched the show and not read the books yet but i mean that that's a great comparison between these two stories and how they reacted because i mean and i i think that i would not be surprised if the magician's author, what is it? Lev Grossman, right? Has read Pullman and was influenced.

And also both of these stories are influenced and very much responses to the Chronicles of Narnia. So in different ways. So that's kind of fun. That's a fun comparison. Really good. I highly recommend the magicians if you guys haven't watched it. And the first book is actually really good.

I haven't gone past that yet, but it does obviously very much derail and change. show is very different very different yeah there's more musicals and yeah and way more characters yeah interesting though one day i'll read those books i i do intend to i have a long list of things i intend to read well lyra and will can stay in this place because it is a suburb of the world of the dead and people just wait here until it is time to die when people die they take a boat but the rest is secret secret and the man directs them back to the holding area and he sends them with papers which later turn out to like kind of just look like scribbled scraps of paper they're like what the fuck is this this

is a real paper um people who end up here usually do so by accident and the gallivaspians dragonflies are sluggish they need rest pan as a leopard is very jealous though about the gallivaspians getting to rest on lyra's shoulders he's like that's my place um and after a while of walking they reach a wooden shack where their papers surprisingly it works to kind of let them through but then not really because they're turned away again into the town to find a place to stay it turns out there are there is some in barrack lighting here electricity but otherwise most of the places do look shabby they see a bunch of figures that are just chatting together but they aren't inside and they realize those also aren't ghosts they're kind of weird and as they get closer they realize oh they are five men

with faces in shadow and dressed shabbily and silent and everyone is being super weird and petty about these like about these figures during these chapters and just about appearances right from mary to these anyways they don't respond to questions and also these figures give pan the very creepy crawlies and was like well fuck you too right it finds that all like all of the figures do this they're very weird and silent and then they are like i guess they're not specters probably i don't think we're old enough yet well and of course the way it's described right is like these are practically refugee camps for people that aren't accepted, right, past the gates. Mm hmm.

You know, they're walking through these camps of just people that don't have the right papers or a soul or whatever their their death, you know, they're missing all the right stuff to get through and they can't go back i mean they could but like no one's helping them be like you're almost at the land of the dead what if we send you back to the other side right like why why is there no one there to guide them back to the world of the living but that is that is interesting there's always a guide for the land of the dead but not one back to the land of the living it's like too bad you gotta stay here yeah yeah fuck finally they find a real person in a doorway that they can get kind of a confirmation of location from and they explain their travelers looking for food and shelter the man asks the weird figures by the door if they saw any deaths with these people as they come in

and in response to all this they see a woman two children a man in the home nervous will tries to reassure them they have brought zero death and this has a very opposite reaction right they're like uh no the point is you need your death to get into this bar lyra tries a different approach and she's like are the weird guys by the door dead? And then she starts kind of comparing the situation to demons in her own world. The man asks if the spies are demons, but she corrects them. No, they're friends.

Then she shows off Pan as a mouse. The man says, it's strange, I guess these are strange times, but whatever, and lets them in, into a small single room, decorated with magazine cutouts, full of sooty fingerprints and a single iron stove just gaudy and overcrowded besides the people they saw at the front there's also a baby an older man and an old woman here wrapped in blankets

i also just really love this one scene right it's like as Lyra looked at her, she had a shock. The blanket stirred and a very thin arm emerged in a black sleeve, and then another face, a man's, so ancient it was almost a skeleton. And I don't know, just like the thought of them being like, oh my god, there's a man in bed with the old woman. Like, I don't know why. It's so surprising to everyone. Just, it's very funny to me. It's also one of the figures that we saw outside the door as it turns out lyra finally finds the words after being shocked and just diffuses the whole situation and explains like i'm very thankful for your kindness um apologizes again of like having no death and explains that she is looking for the land of the dead in case anyone has any directions.

But everyone is still staring even though it somehow feels a little less awkward though, I guess. It doesn't really sound like it's less awkward. It still seems pretty awkward. The man, whom we later learn is named Peter, and the woman of this household is named Martha. Peter busts out some alcohol. It smells like

described as the Gyptians' Jennifer. And the Galavespians also partake in some. I love that. That's based off the Juniper Berry, as we kind of talked about a while back. And it is probably gin, right? This is probably their world gin. I love gin. Me too.

I like a gin, so I guess we're going to die. Or go try to die. Surprisingly, these people are all more curious about Will and Lyra and their lack of death. They got to this place by accident and are waiting for their death to beckon them. We found we all brought our deaths with us. This is where we found out. We had them all the time and we never knew. See, everyone has a death.

It goes everywhere with them. All their life long, right close by. Our deaths, they're outside, taking the air. They'll come in by and by. Granny's death, he's here with her. He's close to her, very close. Doesn't it scare you, having your death close by all the time, said Lyra. Why ever would it? If he's there, you can keep an eye on him. I'd be a lot more nervous not knowing where he was. And everyone has their own death, said Will, marveling. Why yes, the moment you're born, your death comes into the world with you, and it's your death that takes you out. Ah, said Lyra, that's what we need to know, because we're trying to find the land of the dead and we don't know how to get there. Where do we go then when we die? Your death taps you on the shoulder or takes your hand and

says, come along, oh me, it's time. It might happen when you're sick with a fever or when you choke on a piece of dry bread or when you fall off a high building. In the middle of your pain and travail, your death comes to you kindly and says easy now easy child you come along with me and you go with them in a boat across the lake into the mist whatever happens there no one knows no one's ever come back yeah spooky i love that i do love this passage same to level with you all i think about death a lot, and sometimes it's overwhelming. But this chapter in its totality is a beautiful, bittersweet, and amazing way to interpret an understanding of death from several different people and what they see it as, right?

And in that same token, an understanding of life. The last two chapters are kind of dark and grim, and in direct comparison to the very last chapter of the book, no spoilers, the color palette visually changes. Hmm. So the metaphors alone about death and darkness in this chapter are comforting while not being condescending. I knew I

was critical of Phil, Philly there in his first chapter, but he won me back in full with this chapter. The biggest question philosophers, scientists, therapists, theologians, you name it, ask in understanding death and what they've sought to kind of understand has always been, why do we die? What happens after we die? How can we prolong life? And how can we experience a good death? And it brings up kind of this also this this moral quandary of a good death of what's a good death versus a bad death good death? And it brings up kind of this also this this moral quandary of

a good death of what's a good death versus a bad death, right? Is it scientifically defined? Is it subjectively defined? Is it about how much pain the person suffers? Which again, in these same tokens, I don't think Pullman is falling short in how he's also reminding the viewer that like at the end of all things, when you're here at the end, right, when you are almost dead, when you are literally at death's door about to go to this underworld, death and life are similar, but dissimilar in that life is what you can control. You will experience death. You will experience life. I will experience death. I will experience life.

But the only one of those two things you can control is actually life. I will experience death. I will experience life. But the only one of those two things you can control is actually life. I just love, like you said, like, I love this chapter. I love all the descriptions of death and the way it's described. We have a few more passages because I was like, we're quoting all of it. And I agree, it's very bittersweet. And this interpretation is really, really fun. and there's i think something really poignant about the way that death is described in these chapters and how these people speak with such comfort about their deaths but upon rereading it because we we kind of read some of these chapters a little uh last month too for our october episode um i've kind of gotten fixated

on the title of the previous chapter of it being called The Suburbs of the Dead and the way that the life of this family is described and I don't know if they're content or not or happy but Pullman describes their lives with such squalor and that their home is so tacky and that rather than having art on their walls or like they don't have photographs of their own family the walls are decorated with like magazine cutouts of film

stars and then like plastic flowers and shells are like what what make up this home and i think that there's more than one way to read this scene i don't or maybe not i don't know but the some of these interpretations don't really like work with one another um they're all a little different here's two of them that i i was thinking about like one of them like the concept of it as suburbs and the worship of celebrity over one's life and lived experiences coming back to like what you were saying earlier in in the previous chapter or two like that critique of capitalism and maybe like this concept of the suburbs as places of shallow comfort. I don't know if that's what Will's, not Will, that's what Phil's

saying, but that they're so comfortable and close to their deaths because they are near the world of it, and this idea that they are not truly living, that they're just here idling their time away, waiting for death. And then there's another interpretation of it that

i think is uh similar to what you're saying about this place sounding like a refugee camp right they're they're in a single room home that's so crowded with the dingy clothing and the single stove and there's a constant like reference to the homes here as looking like shanties and the man at the gate saying that people end up here by accident so there's another reading that then suggests like are these people it sounds like are they living in poverty they're close to their deaths because of how difficult their life has been i mean i don't know if it's difficult or not um and the difficulty of survival but they also in some ways seem very comfortable they're welcoming people into their homes they're happy or maybe happy enough which is why i'm like is this also a critique of suburbs i don't know um and then there's that other thing going on where again

you've said like the way that death is described it is very comforting and it is true right death isn't inevitable it follows us and i mean as far as i know one day i'm gonna die everyone's gonna die so the the argument of why not welcome it as a friend rather than run from it all your life um and i'm sure that there are other ways to read the scene i also am like i feel like phil pullman would just be like yo all of these are valid even though like none of them like not not all of them really work with one another um as long as the case can be made for them within the text but whatever yeah well i mean there's many ways to live life you know many ways to die so that makes sense this scene in itself like could literally be that like just read in so many ways and i think

that's the point like you know not to aswath quote it but we look up at the stars and we see such different things right um yeah and i think that's something he does really well here absolutely of like about to talk in a minute about his death he this guy has learned his death's name right like he is bffs with his death where other people as he'll say you know they spend their life hiding and seeing it peek around corners and i think that's part of it is you get this big declaration soon and mary in the last chapter in the first chapter two has her own big declaration of like living her life to its fullest and she's actually out with the mulefa right now doing that too right yeah and and i that's the thing these people aren't living i think life to the fullest which well and that's

what lyra has to and will have to go save right yeah they have to go save all these people they do but they're not good so i don't know so a child that is also comfortable with death like brings in the deaths to show will and lyra and they explain no one knows when it's time but death is close by and as you've pointed out the people find it comforting tally silently does not find this comforting though the deaths though become easier to ignore over there um however will then as he thinks about death he becomes really wracked with guilt as he thinks of all the people that he killed he's like were all of their deaths close by poor will martha serves stew and our travelers do not eat any of it, but the family does. And I'm like, this feels smart and telling for Lyra and Will that they do not risk eating the food so close to the land of the dead.

Considering, well, you know, I'm going to gesture at the myth of Persephone. I feel that speaks for itself. Might have to stay there forever, Will and Lyra. Yep. Lyra is excited to tell them all about their world and she does her favorite thing in the world which is where she lies about everything and we have this little quote as she said that as she took charge part of her felt a little stream of pleasure rising upward in her breast like the bubbles in champagne

and she knew will was watching and she was happy he could see her doing what she was best at doing it for him and for all of them bullshitting bullshitting is what she's best at oh my god oh i love this i love this line um it's good it's got a similar energy to like she was a murder he was a murderer and so she trusted him you know but she's like i'm so happy this is me flirting just by lying in front of all these people i'm so proud that will can see this i'm worried about that girl and her future relationship endeavors okay oh my god yeah lyra who taught you to love no one no one taught me to love that's the problem oh master love anyway uh moving on from this fantastic moment uh yeah so lyra's story it's it is quite the tale

right and it will rescues her and brings her to like wolves who raise them there's a lot of things in this um and these people they believe the whole thing right and the story is just like that shit insane and i didn't include the whole thing just just go read it it's it's ridiculous and we needed the episode to be a manageable length but it's insane she even like makes will and the spies corroborate it and also every now and then salmakia chimes in and adds to it adds some like little details to the story i love that salmakia and lyra are actually forming a bond more than chevalier you can see it in this chapter especially because uh salmakia has been the one on the lookout flying back and going straight to lyra and being like hey this is

happening hey this is happening yeah so it's it's really just tialis you know like salmakia has slowly softened but we got to get tialis still we got to get him still yeah he's probably like what the fuck is going on here and it just like ends and lyra's saying like well i guess if we knew our deaths it would be easier to get here thank you all so much for listening but please help us figure out how to get to the land of the dead and so the grandmother's death pipes up out of nowhere and explains that entering the land of the dead leads them to find their own deaths. You must call up your own deaths. I've heard of people like you who keep their deaths at bay.

You don't like them, and out of courtesy, they stay out of sight. But they're not far off. Whenever you turn your head, your deaths dodge behind you. Wherever you look, they hide. They can hide in a teacup, or in a dewdrop, or in a breath of wind. Not like me and old Magda here, he said, and he pinched her withered cheek and she pushed his hand away. We live together in kindness and friendship.

That's the answer. That's it. That's what you gotta do. Say welcome. Make friends. Be kind. Invite your deaths to come close to you and see what you can get them to agree to. You know, it seems like the deaths are also like the shadow of demons. You know, when we're talking about that reflecting light and the two lenses, they kind of seem like a shadow of demons.

They do. And especially because Pan's like, I don't like this. I just love that they can be anywhere, right? And I like that idea, like, oh, death can be anywhere for you. In a dewdrop, breath of wind. It also reminds me a little of, speaking of demons, that guy at Jordan College who had a woman for his demon, as we find out from the little coins that you reminded us of.

And it made me wonder for a while, I was like, oh, was this guy actually from this world and brought his own death? But then I guess all the deaths seem to be like I don't know male presenting and also this like line was removed in some versions of the books so maybe Pullman's like I don't like that idea anymore anyway as pointed out throughout this chapter and then

Lyra's conversation with her death each person's death not only tells them when it's time to go each one is a psychopomp a very personal one you have your own personal them when it's time to go um each one is a psychopomp a very personal one you have your own personal death um and it's it's interesting to see that pullman also took this route versus like you know having one single like god like hermes or something guiding everyone like to their deaths right um and we talk a lot more about psychopomps in our october patreon historic

materials episode naturally they all are like so how do we do this how do we call for death to be our best friends and hang out with them and this death says well you just wish for it and i'm sitting here i'm wishing very hard it's still not happening tialis is alarmed and Lyra steps in. They go outside to chat. Tialis is like, this is enough. This is foolish. This is a bad plan. He insults Lyra and says, you don't realize how foolish this all is. You're ignorant to the truth.

We need to stop all this nonsense and go to Asriel. Lyra, however, takes great offense to that. Lyra felt a great sob of rage building up in her chest and stamped her foot unable to keep still you just don't know what i got in my head or my heart do you i don't know if you people ever have children maybe you lay eggs or something i wouldn't be surprised because you're not kind you're not generous you're not considerate you're cruel even that would be better if you were cruel because it'd mean you took us serious. You didn't just go along with us when it suited you. Oh, I can't trust you at all

now. You said you'd help me and we'd do it together, and now you want to stop us. You're the dishonest one, Tialis. I wouldn't let a child of my own speak to me in the insolent, high-handed way you're speaking, Lyra. Why, I haven't punished you before. Punish me since you can. Take your bloody spurs and dig them in hard. Go on, here's my hand, do it. You got no idea what's in my heart, you proud, selfish creature. You got no notion how I feel sad and wicked and sorry about my friend Roger. You kill people just like that. They don't matter to you, but it's a torment and a sorrow to me that I never said goodbye to him, and I want to say sorry and make it as good as I can. You'd never understand that. For all your pride, for all your grown-up cleverness, and if I have

to die to do what's proper, then I will. And be happy while I do. I've seen worse than that. So if you want to kill me, you hard man, you strong man, you poison bearer, you chevalier, you do it. Go on, kill me. Then me and Roger can play in the land of the dead forever and laugh at you,

you pitiful thing. Artwork. It's artwork. It's literally the Mona Lisa of passages. It's Artwork. It's artwork. It's literally the Mona Lisa of passages. It's so good. It's so good. A plus, first of all, Eliana, you'll be receiving your reward. Thank you. I fucked up,

but thank you. Eliana won. But Lyra really won. That's true, too. This is what brings her death forward, though. This is Lyra really won. That's true, too. This is what brings her death forward, though, right? Like, this is Lyra accepting her death in general, accepting that death has happened, will happen, will happen to her, has happened to her friend, and living her life free of that liberation of from death right like everything they're talking about looking around corners every few seconds thinking you know like oh is my death there she's not living like that lyra is well right now she's rushing to her death she wants to meet it uh but she's actually living

like her ultimate purest life and doing her heart's desire to go fix what she hurt and broke with her best friend to try to save someone right right? And not just that, but along the way, she's actually living out purely like saving others, right? All these people she wants to save. It's not just Roger. Yeah, I absolutely she's just she has been living life to the fullest. I mean, like some of what she's been doing very risky, remarkable that she has not been afraid the fullest. I mean, like some of what she's been doing, very risky. Remarkable that she has not been afraid of dying. I mean, like going to the North, almost getting like severed and just, just running away, running on rooftops. First of all, that was her childhood.

And I don't know. I love this, this line of like, it's ultimate petty, you know, that she's like, then me and Roger can play the land of the dead forever and laugh at you. Take that. All right. I get what i want um either time and you know at first i couldn't tell like if this was like just a very smart ruse on everyone's part to rile lyra up and get her to summon her death but it seems very not it seems everyone is very mad um at each other here and i just love in terms of like there's all this petty that lyra has in here and i mean it's kind of actually very rude she like insults him she's like i don't know if

you lay eggs i'm like very xenophobic she's just like fuck you you lay eggs study you have kids i don't know and she's and also you know uh speaking of the galabespians from earlier to add on to those thoughts I'm like damn where does Tialis get off like thinking he has the authority to like publish punish Lyra it's like those aren't your kids dude but in general it's just a very fun cleverly done scene that Lyra

she gives me big like push the goddamn button energy of the little girl from Rush Hour which I bring up all the time push the button push the goddamn button and that I mean that leads her inviting her death right and besides the living life to the fullest i think what's so important about the scene is it really just shows that deep guilt and despair that's in lyra's heart i think um you know she's willing to die not just because she believes it's right but out of this really heavy grief that's

been weighing on her about what she's done to her best friend there's a lot of complex emotions going on here both will and lyra are very affected suddenly thinking about death was like i just killed all those people and lyra's like i mean my best friend died because of me yeah it's a lot of guilt to put on these youngsters and that they have the like audacity and the hearts to go, we want to fix it, where you have all these adults that have fucked up the world, and they're like, we just want to fuck it up more. It's a big contrast.

These are, we need more Will and Lyras. We need more 12-, 13-, 14-year-old kids out there just risking it all going to the underworld. We have, I mean, we've seen, Jensi has shown a lot of Moxie. That's true. That's true. Moxie. A lot of Gusto. Oh.

Oh. So Tialis is not happy with any of this. He's ready to kill her. He's angry. And suddenly there's a chill from a voice. And congrats. did it it's lyra's death team pan heads to lyra's heart and she holds him there and she talks to her death and explains you know i love living but i also want to go to the land of the dead we get confirmation

that demons don't go to the land of the dead but lyra would like to go and also return so death says no one has done this for ages and you'll go there again someday safely like why are you rushing we'll go together as good friends and lyra's like no i have pan i don't need new friends i don't know you but death is polite about it he's not really a jerk in return lyra says she must go though and she allegedly she lies but it does feel real right like that she's like i have to i can't deal with all this this is a lot besides seeing roger she says that there's a task from an angel that she has and it must be her and now tialis puts the lodestone resonator away and he watches lyra plead with her death death scratches his head and says, you're making a great case,

but really she's just unrelenting. Death says he'll guide her to the land of the dead, but getting out is a her problem. She has to figure that out. Lyra asks, what about my friends? Not that they wanted to go. And Tialis is like, fine, whatever. I guess I'll go.

Lyra understands that they're conciliating a little now and she thinks and she was happy to do that having gotten her way which is a total mood i do that all the time so she apologizes and she thanks him for helping get her death here as well yeah that that moment of her accepting her death and accepting that this is how she is going to go to the underworld it pairs so well against mary malone standing up and accepting her role in helping the mulefa right i think that's really well done and shows that both of them want to help change there's a risk here there's a price

what is it it's a heavy burden being a hero and so we close the chapter so lyra persuaded her own death to guide her and the others into the land where roger had gone and will's father and tony mccarius and so many others and her death told her to go down to the jetty when the first light came to the sky and prepare to leave but pentel was trembling and shivering and nothing lyra could do could soothe him into stillness or quite the soft little moon he couldn't help uttering so her sleep was broken and shallow on the floor of the shack with all the other sleepers and her death sat watchfully beside her ending with lyra sleeping um i love this tony mccarius callback in the way that they

described the the land of the dead as this tangible place by tying it to the people who've gone there before them gotta remember tony mccarius and not just the people that had gone there but also like those are some of the reasons right like tony mccarius's death is what drove lyra to keep going to find roger i mean meeting him and realizing what has happened to him from being severed like it's kind of part of what's compelled lyra not just with roger across this journey uh and will's father obviously is the big kicker for why will's like yeah i'll follow this chick to hell yeah it's it's emotional i'm very glad someone fucking remembered him well yeah phil wrote him but you. Thank God someone remembered Tony. I am a little hurt that no one's like, and that's where Lee went.

Like throughout this chapter, no one's talking about how Lee also died. Yeah, doesn't seem to have quite hit yet. I guess because they didn't see it in front of them, maybe. I don't know. Yeah, because they just kind of half know that he's dead they weren't there so i guess these are the most affecting ones i mean these ones were very traumatic it's true absolutely justice for tony mccarius with that we're gonna go to our dust discussion so if you have not finished the amber spyglass if you have not read the books of dust or the outer novellas log off now we'll see you next year in 2022 we'll see you

in 2022 uh but for those who are ready to tune into a tiny quick discussion stay tuned stay tuned stay tuned all right do you think they're gone? Do you think the unspoiled have left? They're gone. Okay. Good. Good. And if you're not, that's on you.

There's some fun demon stuff going on in these chapters, right? Like Lyra has an intuition about Will's demon. He thinks that she's like, oh, if he had a demon, I know it's a cat. Ah! It is, bitch! How'd you know i loved that it's so she knows him so well they know each other so well pullman what a bastard he's just winking at us and there was another one like right before it in the chapter where they're describing mary's bird leg and not about her being hideous because her demon's also a bird. Yeah, she is, has a bird demon. I forgot about that. Well, and you know, when you think about that, like with the beginning of the books, how we get the description of like, you know, if you have a demon in the sea, like the sailors on the sea, they have to run on the deck

next to their demon where their demon has to swim to keep up forever and if you're a person with a bird demon you know your bird demon wants to fly and can't and there is something about that with mary right like that limited feeling of whether it's just like a woman in stem or you know like that that limited feeling she's always want like the being in the abbey being a nun she didn't fit there either and she hasn't quite fit in her demon being you know a bird cooped up inside of her like nelly furtado she wants to fly away she doesn't know how to get back home yeah yeah huh she doesn't know where her soul is yet earlier on when she goes into the trance to read the alethiometer and she asks how do we get rid of the spies and they're like follow the knife go she asks, how do we get rid of the spies?

And they're like, follow the knife, go onward. That is how they get rid of the spies. The spies die. Because they follow the knife. They waste the rest of their life. I was like, oh, man. It's so hard not to spoil this, obviously, in the body of everything right now. But it's just very sad because, like, by the end end the galavespians do give a shit about these

kids and they go all out for them literally and they die like they let their lives end which they know they're gonna die which is what this is all about right like knowing you're going to die we all die that is literally one of the themes of that last chapter there and the galavespians know they're gonna die and they end up following lyra and will to the end of their world and die yeah for a purpose not just their usual death though like at least it's purposeful we have a lot of that in this in this series you know people purposefully you know dying for something that they believe in and i didn't catch that though like the knife says to just follow the knife or the the alethiometer says to just follow the knife

i thought it was just being like no you gotta keep them because they're gonna help you which they do and and like i said that's why it's so weird for me on hindsight like rereading these chapters more slowly and not just like breezing through them i'm like damn they really like had a lot of animosity for the galavespians huh because i i my last image of them is like as these like really trusted companions now as we reread it at this pace i think that's in there especially because it makes the resolve that much more worthwhile right like it makes it when it makes it so sad it fucking i'm sad very sad about the gallowsaspians. I know. I am. They risked it all. Definition. Well, because you get, like, the angels,

right? You get the angels, and they're sassy and kind of sharp, but they're not, like, assholes. The Galabaspians, you get the Galabaspians, and it's like, oh, this is like World War III between all four of you. Every day. Yeah. Yeah.

It's a good contrast to the angels in that aspect. Yeah. It's a good contrast to the angels in that aspect. Yeah. I mean, they kind of abandoned them. Yeah, right. Angels abandoned them and the Galabasbians don't. They're like, I guess we're going to the underworld with you. Like, that's commitment. To be fair, one of them dies.

The angels? Yeah, that's true. And the other one's so sad about that death that he just disappears. I'd probably abandon the shit out of you too if like- That's true. Out of someone, if you died, I don't know. If someone died, I would abandon. Yeah.

Abandon, capital A. You mentioned the Persephone and the underworld earlier, and I really didn't even think about them eating food that close to the underworld, what it would mean, but it did make me think of, along that same thing, the fairy food in the Books of Dust. Yes. So I wonder what them eating in the underworld would have done to them. It couldn't have done anything more for Lyra. She's already eaten fairy food.

That kid's fucked. There's also like, I guess they don't have food. They didn't have food down there. They're just like, I don't know. There's fucking eaten fairy food. That kid's fucked. There's also, like, I guess they don't have food. They didn't have food down there. They're just like, I don't know, there's fucking nothing down here. It's real sad. All they have is this hard rye and cheese from the apocalypse barn. Yeah, from a long time ago.

And that's what they have to live on, because, yeah, there's nothing in the underworld. They're just sad shit. Not as sad the image of dust right the the shruff um in ended turning out to be more of light as opposed to shadows or dark matter um i i just thought it was nice to think about it as this obvious metaphor for learning because we find out that in order to make more dust everyone has to keep like living their lives to the fullest and really experiencing things so that's it yeah i think that is like the major theme of these three right like consciousness and choosing consciousness i think is another big

thing like you look at the state of the victims of the specters that cannot be enveloped in that kind of consciousness anymore after having that taken from them. Yeah. That feels really, really, really relevant through these chapters. And then like, I don't know. Dust is learning. I like that. I do like that. Because if we don't keep learning, then what happens to us?

We'd never know yeah we die eventually or it's like that idea right you were talking about the specters is it like really truly living then you know that idea of like yes you might as well be

I guess that is it seems to be what Philip is saying get you're not living get busy living or die trying sorry Chloe's holding her snow goose now my stuffed kaiza hell yeah but not a real stuffed goose

no no well I mean yes it's real to me but no no it's my demon not the tulapi Tulipa Well, I mean, yes, it's real to me. Yeah. But no, no. It's my demon, Eliana. Not the Tualapi. Tualipa. Not the Tualipa.

You guys, thanks so much for listening. Thanks for listening, you all. We will be back in 2022 to talk about the Tualipa, the famous bird of the lands of the Zalith. Yes, thank you, everyone. Yeah, thanks for being here this year and hope to see you again next year. We are thankful for you. Hopefully you enjoyed some, I don't know, good turkey Lipa. No, sorry, turkey Loppy. I'm confused.

Oh, God. Make sure you cook your turkey Loppy. I'm confused. Oh, God. Make sure you cook your turkey loppy thoroughly. We don't want any food poisoning cases after turkey day in the States. And yeah, we'll talk to you next year, as cheesy as it is. And we will get back into the end of the Amber Spyglass. I think we've got five or six episodes left. So buckle up, buckle up. Good. I'm like not ready for it to be over. But yeah, I'm gonna miss it. I am. And I don't think we're gonna we've talked we're gonna give a little break and let our brains kind of reformulate

before we jump into the secret Commonwealth because you know, we already we kind of have jumped around we did LaBelle, but we need a little break. We'll get to the Secret Commonwealth post Amber Spyglass at some point, and it'll be like we never left our Lyra and Pan. Actually, it will be different.

Yeah, it'll be really different. We'll have also the show at some point, too. And then we can cry about these same chapters all over again. Together. All over again. Okay. And, you know, if you have any thoughts, if you would like to tell us about how sad you are, or about your turkey leap, turkey loppy,

please feel free to find us on social media. You can find us at Girls Gone Canon, C-A-N-O-N, on Twitter, or shoot us an email at girlsgonecanon at gmail.com. Yeah, make sure you are subscribed to us on a podcast streaming platform near you, whether that is Spotify, iTunes, Google Play, Acast, Stitcher, you name it, we're there. Thanks so much, everyone. And, of course, you can also find us on Patreon. You can find us at patreon.com slash girlsgonecanon,

where, as we said, we have bonus episodes once a month. And last month was about His Dark Materials and some of the scary creatures, mystical creatures. And this month, coming out soon, be nymeria november and next month will be that change of pace song of achilles sad and gay it's so sad discord yeah hey come hang out at our discord thunder to your patrons at our patreon hang out all day long all night to your patrons at our Patreon. Hang out all day long, all night long in there.

There's a lot of crazy shenanigans that happen in there. And sometimes we even do a brunch happy hour that's every month. No date for December yet, but we'll keep you posted. If you're over at our Patreon, you'll get those updates. Thanks so much, as always. Indeed, thanks so much. Cheers, I've been one of your hosts eliana and i am that other one of your hosts chloe we'll talk to you next time goodbye