Girls Gone Canon Cast - His Dark Materials Episode 24 — The Amber Spyglass Chapters 26–28

Episode Date: February 25, 2022

War crests in the other worlds as Lyra—with Will, Roger, and the rest of the undead—walks once more into the sky. The Amber Spyglass CHAPTER 26 — ABYSS CHAPTER 27 — PLATFORM CHAPTER 28 — MIDNIGHT --- Eliana's twitter: https://twitter.com/arhythmetric Eliana's reddit account: https://www.reddit.com/user/glass_table_girl Eliana's blog: https://themanyfacedblog.wordpress.com/ Chloe's twitter: https://twitter.com/liesandarbor Chloe's blog: www.liesandarborgold.com Intro: Waltz Of The Skeleton Keys by WombatNoisesAudio | https://soundcloud.com/user-734462061

You're listening to Girls Gone Canon, covering His Dark Materials. Hello, everyone, and welcome to Girls Gone Canon Reads. His Dark Materials, Episode 24, The Amber Spyglass, Chapters 26-28. I am one of your hosts, Eliana. And I am another one of your hosts, Chloe, and we are here in the last third of the book. Oh gosh, things are getting sad. Things are getting hectic. Things are getting very tense.

We've covered Northern Lights, The Golden Compass, The Subtle Knife. We've covered all of the outer novellas available at Time of Publishing right now. And we've started on those books of dust right we finished labelle sauvage but yet we have not yet conquered the amber spyglass but we're gonna we're gonna we're thinking of with the end upon the horizon we're thinking about what to do going forward but for now you just all have to worry about northern light slash the golden compass and the subtle knife in regards to what we will cover this episode in regards to spoilers anything that is

in those outer novellas or the Books of Dust please do not worry about us really bringing it up this episode or anything that happens towards the end of the book though again how you held yourself back yeah I might as every time bend the rules we're so close

and it's hard it's so hard but again those outer novellas and things in the books of dust or slash you know that are really really towards the end of the books will be in the dust discussion yes the dust discussion is where we get all sorts of dusty we chit chat about anything we've been thinking about with the end of the main trilogy or the outer novellas and the books of dust and i really do hope that we continue on our dusty path to the secret commonwealth but that is for a future us to talk about when we finish this book right yeah you guys will hear about it then future me is different from today me girl ain't that it ain't that it for tonight today me tonight me will be covering chapters 26 abyss 27 platform and 28 midnight make sure you're read up before you keep pressing play give it a pause if you need to it's gonna get intense and besides the books

as you all know there is a television show his dark materials and season three while it has not yet been announced we know that they are now in post-production but let's say you're waiting you want to prepare for season three yeah you want to prepare for season three then you need to be a part of our private discord server our private discord server over here at girls gone canon you can get access at patreon.com slash girls gone canon if you sign up and pledge to the thunder tier the thunder tier the 10 tier and above gives access to like over 30 to 50 channels of just crazy discussion and weekly his dark materials rewatch discussion events.

Fans are gathering and rewatching. Our friend Pete is a great friend, great patron, and he is hosting this rewatch discussion every week on the TV show, the adaptation over at BBC HBO. The next episode is actually this weekend. It is... It's going to be season one, episode five. this weekend. It is. It's going to be season one, episode five.

Yep. The Lost Boy. Yeah. Season one. Oh, my God. This is a sad week. I have to get sad. I'm going to be listening in the rafters this week if you're listening as the episodes publish, because I have some house guests coming, but I will be listening because this is a sad

ass episode. We have some first timers joining us right that haven't watched the show hadn't read the book but have now finished the second book our friend Brit has finished the first and second book in record time within five weeks she's pretty mad at us

she's mad she's not happy and you're probably not happy if you've come this far either with Amber's spyglass so sorry then again part of why brit is mad at us is because of the death of lee scoresby but look look here he is in this chapter we wouldn't hurt you right i still didn't get the closure i wanted for his girlfriend and him right but that's okay that's okay maybe Maybe in another world, another life. Like in Jet Li's The One. Masterpiece.

Again, if you are interested in coming over to that Discord, come hang out. Come hang out weekly and talk about his dark materials, the show, or the books. There's a great discussion at the end of those episodes too and that's happening at Saturdays.

For the next four weeks, it's going to be Saturdays, 3 p.m. Eastern Time and on. Sometimes they're two hours, one hour, three hours. It depends who's there and who wants to chit chat. I know they've gone overtime on some of them. Yeah, it's been, I mean, Pete's just doing a great job. And honestly, he's been doing so great that we've kind of been inspired for i mean how we might handle a couple of other series that may be on the horizon as well in the future yeah like that there are other hbo book adaptations story adaptation right another

great writer and director and writer and whatever who has sold the rights to his favorite thing off to someone else we're talking about carrie bradshaw's and just like that oh my god we're talking about sam levinson's euphoria no i'm just kidding it's george rr martin's hot d it's his yeah hot dragon it's his house of the dragon you know maybe george rr martin's hot d doesn't really have the ring i should be putting i think it has the ring that you should be putting out there but i mean we're floating yeah we're floating the idea yeah this is not a binding contract more events yeah please do not hold more events we could be different at the discord we've all been fucking kept apart for years and years and years and days and whatever's

and pandemic levados and no one can see each other or talk to each other the way they want to. So it's been such a great time just getting to know some of our patrons and friends that listen to the cast or run other casts, right? Like Double M from the Dust Podcast and Holly Hunts Pants from the Dust Podcast. They have been so fun on the Discord and seeing them at our monthly brunches, which Marches has not been announced yet, but keep an eye out patrons for that. It's always fun.

And, you know, if you're not quite ready to commit to that kind of thing, we get it. It is a lifetime membership, right? If you join the Discord server, I will never kick you off. Girl, come on. You're family. This is family. Unless you piss me off. Okay, Vin Diesel. membership right if you join the discord server i will never kick you off girl come on you're you're family this is family unless you piss me okay vin diesel me over here it's a little vin diesel a little sopranos you know what i mean it's family uh but if you're not ready for that level of commitment we totally understand and patrons in the stranger tier and above actually get bonus episodes every month

and this month is really exciting yes this month is exciting in terms of other changes that are happening at girls gone canon we are of course as you all know branching out into other books just as we did with historic materials but not necessarily in the same scope of time, you know, long term. We are covering Circe, but C-I-R-C-E by Madeline Miller for our bonus episode this month on Patreon. Yeah, a couple months ago, we did the Song of Achilles by Madeline Miller. We had a blast talking about that. And that's patron only right now. It could go public someday. Keep your eye out for that. never know may sacrifice you just to get to hear some great words i love madeline miller i'm excited she's doing a

persephone book next totally lit totally litty literature but literature literature we do put the lit oh my god literature anyway so okay we put the literature into the god i'm excited about cersei by madeline miller i really love the novel it's actually my favorite of her two books of her kind of uh re-delivering of greek mythos i really love it i'm excited to share it with you guys please head over to patreon.com slash girls gonecanon and you will be sure to get some updates in your feed when that goes live this month. Yes. But now,

the abyss. But not the abyss, it's just abyss. It's just, everything's like a one one word title. Very, uh, very cool this episode. Yes. Regarding the abyss, there's a This episode. Yes. Regarding the abyss.

There's a poem at the front. It's William Blake. We know him. We know Willie B. Willie B. Be out here. Billy B. Be at the front of these chapters.

Billy Blake. Oh my God. Baby Billy Blake. Misbehaving. Praise be to baby Billy. We start a bis with the sun has left his blackness and found a fresher morning and the fair moon rejoices in the clear and cloudless night. William Blake, gorgeous and baby billy

blake refreshing baby billy blake gorgeous refreshing uh like you can feel the moonlight cleanse you and your soul and all that and that's actually kind of what this chapter is right they've made the long journey and here they are they are traveling in darkness through the stone only the light the very faltering light of lady salmachia's dragonfly to guide them chevalier's dragonfly has died already and they have found no food in the underworld wonder if they should have taken that food after all i know right lyra holds lady salmachia's dragonfly and Salmachia sits as well, feeding it biscuit crumbs and even some of her own blood. Lyra would have offered hers, but she has to concentrate on safely walking across the

rocks. Yeah, I feel bad that Lyra didn't notice, but I don't know, just the dragonflies dying, all the focus on it. I think Pullman did a really good job of like conveying emotions through that. It's so sad. I know they're just like bugs, but you know, it shows a strong bond between the riders and the dragonflies. And like, I don't know, really gives that sense of loss, even though I know again, they're just bugs, but I feel it. There's something almost really twistedly like, I don't know, it's a certain depth that like demons are one thing, but caring for another human being, an individual, that selfless generosity and generosity in general, like giving to another individual like that is almost more pure than demons.

Because demons are just yourself. That's a great point. Like in many aspects, they're a version of you. So like loving yourself, loving your demon, that's normal. That's a great point. In many aspects. They're a version of you. So like loving yourself, loving your demon, that's normal. That's a normal everyday thing. But loving someone else and kind of giving them that love and that respect, that's beautiful and that's different and special. And part of yourself. Yeah, part of yourself.

For Salmakia to feed her blood to her dragonfly who's dying and will die. Like there's no food here for it, but knowing and she's dying too. This is the end for Salmachia. She is in her final days. We know this because that's what's been explained about the Galavaspians to us. That's sad that she's willing to give her

own life force, kind of like Lyra giving her own life force to the children crowding her here before they leave. Absolutely. No Name is leading everyone through the caves, kind of being like a psychopomp, but on the way out. I'm going to say something controversial here. It's interesting that they have to find another way out and they just couldn't go out the front entrance. There wasn't like a rebellion of like, what if we just like got rid of the gatehouse?

But anyway, No Name's leading them through the caves to the nearest point uh so that they can cut a window out and the goholum of ghosts are following no name tells everyone to follow and if you are unable to see no name then listen for no name if you can't hear then just feel your way forward and first of all i'm kind of starting to wonder, is No Name's like, name at all inspired by that song, A Horse With No Name? I don't know. I like, I know, I'm not joking. I think it's a good song. Maybe it's other people don't. That's fine. But also No Name emphasizing that one needs to rely and trust their senses, no matter what you have. If you can't see, do this, right?

I think it ties in really well with what we're going to see of Mary next chapter, where she has to think of her memories full of those senses and sensations. So you have that through line between the chapters. And then coming back to you were saying maybe they should have brought that food. I'm like, damn, how long have Lyra and Will been without food? And down here, because they did refuse some of that food, right? In the suburbs of the dead, if I'm not mistaken. And they are pushing their physical limits. I mean, they are climbing.

I'm not the best. I've gotten better at climbing, but I'm not the best. So if the dragonflies, then they are probably like, I don't know. Seems rough. flies like that they are probably like i don't know seems rough i i have to say all i'm thinking about when you say climbing is pokemon archaeis oh my god is it archaeis archaeis yeah um the climbing on the mountain sides it's very difficult i'm having a very hard time um life is really hard if you wanted to know how i'm doing sidebar this is part of our tomorrow conversation we'll talk about Pokemon tomorrow

when we record I'm having a hard time lots of mountaintops yeah spoilers I guess eating the food does feel like doing the deal with the devil now looking back not specifically but it does feel like doing the deal with the devil now looking back right not specifically

but it does seem like oh very pomegranate right for persephone and hades that oh you eat this you're stuck down here so i'm glad they didn't but there's also so much misfortune that seems to be following that that they didn't yeah they're just like i mean it doesn't sound like the children are starving we don't hear that but i mean obviously they're pretty tired by now and at first i think when i was younger when i read through these i kind of just like took it for granted i was like maybe somewhere assumed that like when they entered the land of the dead they don't feel that hunger but i mean clearly they do this is this is pushing their stamina absolutely absolutely because of that Lyra is feeling as weak as the dragonfly but a familiar voice speaks just in

time it's Mr. Scoresby in the faint light she can make out his form and smile and he comforts her but tells her that there are people out there working some trouble aimed at her he asks if this is the boy with the knife and will looks at him eager to finally meet the famous lee scoresby only for his eyes to wander and be like friendship over with mr scoresby that's my dad it's the ghost behind him john perry. So Will is speechless. But his father tells him there's no time to talk. I guess it's good that he's speechless. And that Will must do exactly as he says.

Take the knife and find a place where a lock has been taken from Lyra's hair. I love this so much. Lyra touches her hair. It's kind of a weird moment. She's like, what the fuck? Don't fucking cut my hair. And Mac loves my hair. I don't want an undercut it's not in style down here she touches her hair and will's like no put your hand down and in the very faint gleam he sees this patch of hair shorter at her temple than the rest mind-blowing john says cut the shorter hair down to her scalp

very carefully every hair collect them and open another world and close it at once uh so will does so first of all the then the idea is that that hair leads to the blow up so that hair in another world like what what did you just cause you know i don't know what did you just destroy i wonder william billy baby billy perry baby billy perry praise be to hey what did you just destroy in another world and there's also something that stands out especially in these three chapters, right? I think these three chapters, we've had a lot of luck with these chapters all as we choose three standing out so distinctly in their parallels to one another. So such a testament to Pullman's

writing on this. Thanks, Phil. And it stands out that in the contrast of john perry who for a decade all he's thought about is getting back to his family right all he's wanted was his family all he's wanted was his baby boy that he left his baby he's craved his lossing over eliana all he's craved has been seeing his child and seeing what he's left and not given his child, right? And like owning up to that even in some aspects. But yet the first moment he sees him, he does not selfishly take him in. He doesn't absorb him in. He says bluntly the truth. He says, this is what you need to hear. Right now, there's no time for me to blubber over you. Will, you need to do this thing. It's very important.

It could danger the person that you're in love with. And then even after this, right, he doesn't get gushy, so to say. He says, Will, there's no time for this. And there's more you need to know about your situation and what's going on. Then you get to the last chapter of this trio midnight and azrael has this moment out of nowhere this moment where he's like why yes lyra my daughter is so fantastic the savior yes yes i know her i raised her actually she's my daughter she's my everything i always knew that kid was going places right like he straight up has this whole like my daughter's

the fated one and we're leading armies in her name and she was always gonna be great meanwhile you have Colter contemplating being like oh wow so nothing matters Lyra's safe cool I could die I'm good with death right like she's contemplating her own death there's just something so interesting that john doesn't gush over it and asriel's like interesting that my interests have now aligned with my daughter being the chosen one it's so glaring in my opinion the contrast between them in these three chapters there's definitely a contrast for sure i i'm not sure how asriel and marisa would have been his parents but i think i think john perry could have been a good dad if he were there but he got lost the fact that he

is not just like gushing over will and as much as both will and john have wanted that with every vein of their existence they both have wanted to be gushing over the other right i mean that's like a natural human want to be loved yeah uh and then just asriel on this other plane and he even says he's like and the boy with the knife i love that boy i would love to shake that boy's hand that wields the knife right like he totally has this whole like spiel in the third chapter where he's just like william perry what a fine man it just is like as somebody who's a noted like john perry questioner i am a noted questioner of john perry's motives i don't always believe in john perry joppery i'm a job and that's the other thing yeah i'm a joppery but it was. Anyways, I get it.

I get it. I you. I don't know. I just never used to be into him. But just this contrast made me go, oh, John Perry rocks. Okay, cool. Cool. Cool.

Yeah. Asriel. You know, we'll get to my take later. I think like, I mean, everyone knows that i think asriel like we are left wanting with him even though i don't know i guess look if the man fell down a cliff like tomorrow i wouldn't be sad yeah so we'll we'll get to those thoughts in in a bit but for now the ground is shaking and the deep grunt and growling noise comes through the world around them is shifting.

Everyone's upended. Rock tumbles and rolls with them, but finally it settles and everyone checks on each other. Everyone is okay, but the bomb went off in another world and as the dust clears, John tells them to look. There's a faint golden glimmer,

like misty rain, falling around them, enough to light the path ahead. I actually think this is really interesting, that this is so powerful that something happens that they're able to suddenly see dust with their like naked eyes whereas like mary had to spend the whole chapter you know finagling to do that um anyway so the dust is flowing into a black emptiness and dyes an abyss. And they are merely climbing on loose, barely balanced rocks on the edge of the abyss. And there's no way out except for forward.

It flows into a black emptiness and dyes into the abyss. And they are merely climbing on loose, barely balanced rocks on the edge of the abyss. Very, very safe. There's no way out except for forward. And they carefully must edge forward against the abyss, and only the harpies are unafraid, flying ahead. Because, I mean, yeah, they've got wings. Good for them. But, you know, it's really sinking in for me, this read-through now, like, how strong that bomb is. That it just, like, explodes across worlds.

I feel like I really greatly underestimated yeah the bomb yeah like in totality in the story the first time i read i've reread once but it was a clumsy reread and it was like no uh when i first read it i i mean i think the think the tension of the bomb and the suspense really takes away any sort of logic or thought. Yeah. Head empty. It was very intense. It reminds me of this other story that I read called, it's called Worm. It's a, it's a like. Dune?

No. No. It is called Worm. It's also's also i think part of called like the parahumans universe it's like an online serial it was really long but um anyway i'll leave it at that because i don't want to give away too much but lyra feels the alethiometer safe in her pocket and finds roger's face giving him words of courage she tells him to not be afraid to keep going and moving and will and lyra will keep on too she tells him that she might not be able to look back at him because she has to watch her step so she has to trust that roger will come

steadily along with them look i know i say it a lot on the podcast like all the time like i always talk about lyra and orpheus and eurydice right like whether it's a discussion whether it's the main body of the podcast yeah hashtag hadestown uh if you haven't listened to hadestown you should it's very good there's this part of hadestown where Eurydice is out in the cold, right? And she's like getting attacked and shit. And somebody steals her food and her clothes. And she's like, give it back. It's my favorite part of the whole musical.

It just cracks me up every time. I feel bad. So I'm like, oh, no, Eurydice. But like at the same time, like Eurydice, shut up. Give it back. Orpheus has a connection with Lyra. As I've mentioned 8,300,000 times before in the podcast, you've been here, you live here, you know what's up. Orpheus and his lyre.

Oh. Right? Yes. Lyra, the lyre herself. It does feel like this little retelling of the myth with the slight twist and kind of it's trending in a positive way orpheus gets to free eurydice from the underworld lyra's orpheus eurydice is roger at least roger's spirit eurydice's spirit gets to be free even if he can't be with her in the end even if they cannot spend the rest of their lives together doing lyra and

roger things they had the experience their dust their consciousness had the experience together and now roger gets to go free and be free and without spoilers i won't say anything about it but it makes the ending of the amber spyglass all that more fulfilling when you think about it. Like emotionally, fulfilling sounds positive. I don't want you to think I'm saying it's a positive thing. It's a fulfilling thing emotionally. It makes the emotional tension and cohesion just so strong. It's a sad story.

It's all so sad. I'm smiling right now. now yeah a lot happens at the end but uh as you can see a lot's happening in these chapters too right we're ramping up to that but yes absolutely just like yes to all this orpheus stuff like i know that pullman has even said like he's inspired but it just comes through so strongly in these moments like the fact that she told him i can't look back at you that's orpheus and eurydice right there like that that was intentional yeah it was intentional i mean she does for a second and then she fucking almost falls over we're gonna she fucking falls yeah you stupid guys robber so that's my girl

and that's the thing they've been on this horrible rocky path which is like what like the path to faith right like you just have to have faith and you have to keep walking above this i'm gonna have faith i'm paying the faith i don't like that song i don't know why i sing that oh i love that song oh my god it reminds me of my wedding this is a road to faith right they're like trotting along falling off of and none of them know how long it's been it feels like forever it's nauseating and they're balancing along and everybody's following will and lyra in hopes of freedom but at the same time some of these ghosts don't really trust them. And they whisper. You hear them going, we're frightened. How much farther?

Are we there yet? This place sucks. You hear all this shit along the way. Yeah. And I mean, not all of it is from like, you know, the kids, right? And it actually reminds me a little bit of, you know, the story of Exodus. And, you know, like how the Israelites were telling Moses, moses like moses what the fuck are we there yet are we done um and some of them did complain that they were like we should have stayed in egypt and

moses is like no we're gonna make it and then he fucks it all up and they're out there for 40 years yeah you know it's in other terms i'd be like yeah yeah whatever reference eliana but no you're right because this is like pure savior shit going on yeah right like every one of these chapters is like lyra's the savior or lyra was a chip stone did you mean you know yeah or lyra it is and she's being very much i, with what's about to happen with No Name, or sorry, The Generous One, she's also being very positioned as a Jesus-y character, as usual. Not just Eve. She's also Jesus. She's got a lot on her shoulders. I think you're onto something there with the Moses theme, too.

That is everybody complaining, not on like what, like Danny in Aeswaf in Clash of Kings, right? Actually, the literally. Yeah. Yeah.

Literally that's her. So there's your glimpse of Aeswaf POVs moving forward. Everyone do with that what you will. So I wish I had like a better joke about the musician No Name, but I don't No Name's great it's Arya Stark well

No Name's great, go listen to her but also Will wants to tell all these ghosts off fuck off ghosts fuck off ghosts shut the fuck up you ghosts you're dead you're dead um but lyra holds his arm telling him they're just unhappy and frightened and salmakia gives a very calm clear speech i love our lady salmakia and tells everyone to be patient and cheerful and it strengthens everyone and they

find they're able to just keep going i love selmakia's growth that she starts off as this frigid little thumbelina and here she is right like you get in the beginning the girl is more trusting i think we could win her around she's innocent she loves easy it's crazy to think she begins with that manipulative kind of stern looking for the holes in Lyra's strength but yet here she is in the final hours giving a speech to all the ghost children not just Lyra right like this is this is for all of them to keep them going to keep them cheerful and at one point Lyra and Will realize after this they're like we can hear the wind but we can't feel it which is interesting part of me is like you're feeling't feel it which is interesting part of me is

like you're feeling braver but then the other part of me is like oh timey-wimey hole in space and fabric of being and humanity shit right not great will theorizes he's like oh so that hole below is kind of like the hole when i cut a window a similar edge he can actually see the glimmer that that makes it look like that, just where the rocks are falling. But down there, it's not another world like what he's seen. It's different. And he's like, oh, man, I wish I could close that hole.

Damn. I'd be, like, hurling at this. Yeah, I don't know. I'd probably just, like, stand there and be like that's it that's it for me we're here on this ledge that's it but yes lyra comments that well that's concerning because you haven't closed every window that you made and he says nobody should and some he couldn't things sometimes like go wrong and they definitely go wrong when he leaves them open and he's like well a whole not one that's that big like it's wrong

something bad is gonna happen and i'm just like hmm what could it mean okay alternatively maybe not something bad maybe something good hmm so while they go to chat tialis talks with lee scores being john perry which i love this i love this little trio them getting together with their war stories it's gonna be great john perry says they shouldn't go with the rest of the ghosts even though lee is like my atoms are aching to join the living universe. John Perry says they'll be needed in battle. They should hold themselves back in case they can make all the difference. Tialis is like, I don't know that we could actually help.

You guys are ghosts. And John Perry and Lee think, well, there's going to be ghosts in the army, right? Like there will be specters in the enemy's army they eat demons and our demons are gone we could actually do something good here interesting john perry asks chevalier do you think you'll live long enough to make it with us tialis is like i only have a few days left salmakia may be a little longer but our exile won't be permanent at least thanks to the children he says and i say this i quote this with actual tears in my eye holes i have been proud to help them you know you're getting like in the last third of the story right when there's shit like

this you're like oh god i everyone sees why I was so confused why are they being so mean I was like why are the Galavaspians being so mean they're our friends these are the real Galavaspians y'all this is what they're like this is it right here the beginning Galavaspians we don't know them

legitimately do not know them. They move on though. Right. So the abyss below is threatening to eat them forever. And eventually Lyra is too far in her thoughts. And she gets a very sudden vertigo. Cause she's like thinking about falling forever and ever. Oh, just like her mommy.

She sways almost reaching for Will. It's true. She thinks about it in the third chapter. She says so. That's true. She sways, almost reaching for Will, but she stops because he's too far away. And she remembers the last time she could remember really getting a bad vertigo. And it's the roof of Jordan.

Roger actually had been there and it keeps her focused. It keeps her focused on not falling and defying the vertigo and she looks back at roger reminding them both of that moment right now roger instead whoa what a moment roger instead is like lyra be careful you're not dead like we are what a moment because lyra has never had to consider that in her life with roger she's always been the the boss that defies life right well yeah now roger's out here like lyra you better be careful yeah i mean roger's been through a lot including death and i mean maybe it'd be i feel like we discussed this in a previous episode maybe the one that you just mentioned right of mrs culture

feeling a similar sensation previously uh the idea of the call the void or la per du vide and um apparently there's like science science behind this feeling and it has to do with like signals getting mixed in your brain where your brain's telling you like be careful don't do this thing and then your brain like mixes it up and it's like do this thing step forward and you're like what the fuck did i just do so yeah and i think there's also an interesting twist here in that it's kind of also coming from lyra wishing to show off for roger that's what the text says to us so i'm kind of like this was like a bizarre moment of how to reread but maybe there's an aspect of it of you know lyra's trying to

recapture those times as you said right like things have changed between her and roger that dynamic she's trying to recapture it and it's almost a caution of like lyra that time of your life is over that was a different time it was your childhood and now there are perils to trying to regress it's true though like now you have to grow up innocence lost it's over paradise experience time paradise lost innocence lost baby billy blake baby billy blake baby billy perry praise be to them it is though it's innocence lost like it is the funniest moment to me that roger says that to her because it's like lyra will you behave from roger yeah roger her most faithful disciple that accompanied her on every bullshittery around the entire college that she created he really did enable a lot

well he was also like too afraid not to though let's be fair he was having lyra's a force of nature dude he was like but yeah but that's the thing is she made him alive and now he's keeping her alive yeah i guess she made him alive but she also led him to his death so yeah well you know that's not fair it's not her it isn't um but she feels like it is and that's big sad it is okay so we have this great scene with the harpy with no name who brings Lyra, Limp, saving her life into Will's arms. And they cling to one another, whispering comfort to one another. Everybody is blessing the harpy like, oh my god, you're amazing. And Tialis and Salmakia praise the harpy and call her generous one.

Yes. As soon as Lyra is able to move, she reaches out to the harpy and kisses her ravaged face repeatedly once the terror subsides they set off again testing things slowly and moving ahead i love this scene it is so beautiful lyra kissing the face of the ravaged harpy right and the gross boogers away and that like yeah right lyra's able to melt it all away uh and it's very much something i mean again akin to jesus we are talking jesus here it reminds you of isaiah 32 8 where you have kind of this line about but the generous one devises what is generous and by generous deeds he rises up there's kind of this importance of god's

generosity being put onto display here especially in the face of these wastelands of the ccde and the magisterium and in turn enoch in turn metatron have created right the metatron's regime has created so much imbalance in the world and it makes me think of kind of some of these flashes of the impoverished that pullman likes to put in right that he puts in these moments of like industrialization slavery worlds where we see people with like chains over them and dogs that are suffering from like nuclear fucking radiation some really like metal shit that we see in blips in these books. And there's a lot of books of dust. Yeah, that's true. Lots of alloy going on here. Some of it is like in books, some of it is in the outer dust books too. But it's interesting that you see the CCD,

Metatron, Magisterium, the Authority, whoever you want to call it everyone contributing to that industrialization and that slavery and somehow in like all of that horror we actually find beauty in the harpy right the harpy who's flying over this wasteland helping to guide the children and the ghosts out of it and it reminds me of jesus washing the feet of his disciples of Jesus washing the feet of his disciples. Jesus washing the feet of his disciples and Lyra kissing the face of the harpy to melt away everything. You know, Jesus washing the feet of his disciples was really interesting because you got different responses from his disciples when he did so. They didn't have anyone there to wash their feet and they'd been walking through the desert and their feet were calloused and gross and muddy and sandy and just, you know, thick.

And he chose to express humility doing the work of what his disciples thought was made for lowly servants. And his attitude of servanthood was kind of in contrast to his disciples. They had been arguing about who of them was the greatest, right? They were too busy trying to claim power and figure out who was Jesus's best disciple. And since there was no servant there to wash their feet, it never really occurred to them that they could just wash each other's feet, you know, that you could just help one another and love one another. So when Jesus stooped to this task, they all stunned and the only disciple that was able to say anything was Peter who was really uncomfortable about it and he was like you'll you shall never

wash my feet Jesus and Jesus said something to him that probably shocked him right he says unless I wash you you have no part with me and And Peter, who was kind of, you know, he had a very genuine love for the Lord. It made him go, well, please give me a real full foot washing. And Jesus then explains the true meaning that Peter has experienced the cleansing of salvation and doesn't need to get washed again in a spiritual sense, necessarily that salvation is a one-time act of faith but the lifelong process of sanctification of keeping yourself clean washing the stain of sin away peter and all of the disciples maybe not judas uh who never really belonged technically to jesus they only need this as a temporal cleansing i think that's interesting like the the connection you've

drawn between that act and lyra's i mean as you'll recall from our episode with our friend cassidy turns out vultures smell fucking nasty and likely no name does too and for lyra to do this act of that's so intimate right with no name kissing no name's face and um the context also like within this washing this foot washing of jesus washing his disciples feet during that time is that as you called out right the feet were nasty at that time this was actually considered like one of like the basis acts one could do because feet were so dirty during i mean like you're wearing sandals, you're walking around in it, your feet are in everything, right? There's shit all over the roads, things like that. So for your leader to debase himself in such a way, that act of humility was a very big deal.

And yeah, an act of love and intimacy. So I think there's really a strong connection between what you've drawn here yeah i i don't know if i'm thinking of something else too from you know catechism and all the worlds that i've shoved behind yeah i learned that in church yeah like i'm like i feel like there's something else that i'm missing of a face washing. And there's also like Mary Magdalene tones. Yes, Mary Magdalene and washing Jesus's face. There's a lot of that too.

I didn't really want to go into it too far. But yeah, I mean, no name, I guess kind of, well, it's the other way around. But no name fits that role, helping everything. Well, eventually, finally, a way out appears the slope gets easier there's a fold in the cliff of the wall and once they climb farther up will thinks i should test out the knife but the harpy says no not yet keep going so they carry on until they get to a narrow area in the cliff will finds a, but before he can cut, his father's ghost edges forward. It's so sad. Will thinks that this

is goodbye, so it's not that sad yet. Because it's not quite yet. It's, um, because John Perry reveals that we're actually going to stay back for a bit in Asriel's world to help with the fight. But he also reveals that they need to go, the children need to go to Asriel's world too

to find their demons again, because their demons are there. And, you know, it's very convenient for the plot and for the children that John Perry knows this because he used to be a shaman and he learned to see things. And he says that, you know, Lyra's alethiometer would tell you the exact same thing. And I mean, again, it's just like insane. So no need to check it. No need to check it. It is very convenient. I have to say, I'm glad you said that.

Because I'm like, hmm, convenient plot. Exactly. Like earlier when I was like, very convenient that John Perry's like, oh, we got to give, yeah, Lyra a stylish new hairdo. We got to make Lyra look like Skrillex for a second. And so, yeah. Anyway, for the plot, it's the most powerful force in the world.

More powerful than John Perry. And I don't know how he's able to see things from the world. I guess that's how powerful he is. Powerful is the plot. He tells them the most critical part of all. Right? Like, this does give a little bit of background. Sir Charles Latrum, as they

may have known him, had to return periodically to his world and could not permanently live in their world. The Guild of the Torre d'Angeli found the same thing to be true and john perry did too when he was in the marines in his world healthy as a clam 10 years later he walked out of his world and his health began to fail so that's important but i also want to point out something else in regards to, again, the plot. So, if John Perry knew that Charles Latrim, a.k.a. Lord Boreal, was also living life as Charles Latrim,

why did he not figure out how Charles Latrim was getting all the way back to John Perry's world? Or is this something that he only figured out once he was in the underworld because he like comes across latrim's ghost and he's like oh interesting you harassed my wife and son i mean it's not like he has much else to do right in the land of the dead yeah start fights yeah do crimes and i will say it's not like he's had much else to do in the last five years but think right uh i mean his health started deteriorating not it wasn't 10 years in that his health started deteriorating he doesn't like pinpoint it but it's obvious that he started to feel some issues from the the traveling between worlds yeah at some point on the way to 10 years because we see him 10 years later and he's not

great i'm just saying that he could have asked i guess could he have asked charles later like or like figured it out i don't know i've been like that man has a window could i use that window to get home anyway i don't think it mattered at that point you know what i mean i think he was so far into the place where he was as a shaman like i mean he found coping mechanisms which i think is something that like maybe our children here are our children maybe they'll have to come up with coping mechanisms we don't know and as we i guess discussed in previous episodes he saw like a purpose that he needed to do to build a better world for his kid or something exactly it was

sacrificing for the greater good which azriel will try to comment on himself. We have this passage. And this is the reason for all those things. Your demon can only live its full life in the world it was born in. Elsewhere, it will sicken and die. We can travel if there are openings into other worlds, but we can only live in our own. Lord Asriel's great enterprise will fail in the end for the same reason. We have to build the Republic of Heaven where we are, because for us, there is no elsewhere. Will, my boy, you and Lyra

can go out now for a brief rest. You need that and you deserve it. But then you must come back into the dark with me and Mr. Scoresby for one last journey. Yes. I will follow you into the dark by Death Cab for Cutie is playing very softly in the background as we get to the last third of the book. It is. It's just going to play all the time on repeat. It is. Acoustic version. Acoustic version version did i blow that

uh episode description too early i don't know but i feel like every one of these episodes is yeah that's true i should just like post subsequent like verses for each one of these episode descriptions i'm into it go restructure this is a beautiful line uh all of it is beautiful but we have to build the republic of heaven where we are because for us there is no elsewhere for people like asriel there is elsewhere right asriel's been able to pick the perfect setting for the perfect party and the perfect shooters but everybody doesn't have that opportunity everybody isn't born into having that opportunity and everybody doesn't get to have the contacts to make those opportunities

right now these ghosts know they have nothing else this is their republic of heaven they have to build as they walk out of that arch right and into life back into the world yeah and beautiful beautiful absolutely and i mean i think there's that right like even you know obviously i have like my qualms with it like on a larger societal level but the message of it is good you know like no matter where you are you it is your life and you must live with it you must live it as you will um sanctuary can be wherever you make it yeah and you have the power right you can try and make it make it yeah it takes a people yeah it takes one person to make a thought and a people to make a thought happen for everyone.

That is the hopefulness to grasp from Asriel's plot, right? Like, as much as I hate that motherfucking fuckboy. And John Perry's. And John Perry. And I've come way more to terms with John Perry. I'd like to just, like, look at the character evolution of Chloe for a moment, right? I don't think we talk enough about Chloe when we talk about these books, but...

You want to talk about Chloe as a sh shaman oh my god i am ashamed of my reaction so will and lyra exchange a look and will cuts open a window into this most beautiful sight of dazzling stars a shine of water great trees and he widens that window as far as he can. He can get like six to eight ghosts in that width, and they begin to walk out of the land of the dead. The first ghosts nervously enter, and they're brimming with hope, and the excitement flows through the long line of ghosts behind them, looking in wonder at the first stars that some of them have seen in centuries. them, looking in wonder at the first stars that some of them have seen in centuries. The first ghost to leave the world of the dead was Roger. He took a step forward and turned to look back at Lyra and laughed in surprise as he found himself turning into the night, the starlight, the air,

and then he was gone, leaving behind such a vivid little burst of happiness that Will was reminded of the bubbles in a glass of champagne. The other ghosts followed Roger and Will and Lyra fell, exhausted onto the dew-laden grass, every nerve in their bodies blessing the sweetness of the good soil, the night air, and the stars. She did it she fucking did it eliana she did it she got roger's soul out she got his spirit out she freed him she freed them she freed all of them she did it that was that to me like i know this isn't the climax of the story I know this isn't the climax of the story. I know this isn't the climax of the story in some aspects. It is, yeah, in some ways. And she got out, right? She and Will, they did it. They got out.

And, I mean, it's literally, like, one of the best passages and one of the most satisfying I think moments in the whole series and you know earlier you were talking about Orpheus and you know there's definitely shades shades of that

of that story right many that you pointed out and also again in that aspect of Lyra cannot look back but I almost feel like there's an aspect of the myth that's like rewritten with a sort of triumph in that act of defiance and desire as roger is the one who turns back to look at lyra right with that joy and because rather than orpheus turning around it's it's the dead eurydice that shade of eurydice and yes she's brought back to death she's lost again in that moment in a way she's not really fully brought back to life but i mean that eurydice that roger now he's like going to be found everywhere right he's everywhere now he's

part of all of it and you know because like while yeah orpheus i'm gonna say like yeah orpheus turning back of course that's like a big failure like, that's the whole point. That's why everyone loves telling this story still, like, now. Like, that's why it's such, got such lasting power. But I think it also has such lasting power because it might have been one of the most human things in the world to do right the the longing and excitement of just finally being able to behold to see and finally sense like your beloved like we made it right and that's how roger feels in this moment he's made it it's him turning around that's such a human act and i think there's something wonderful that instead of experiencing loss, it's joy. Hmm. Songs of experience and innocence all in one. Right?

It is the exact answer to the lost little boy, lost little girl, the vapor upon the air. They're misbehaving. Misbehaving. That is the victory, misbehaving. Well, we leave Lyra this week with that like that is the most ultimate i love that end of a chapter for lyra because the next two chapters have no lyra in first person no you know and we're getting to the end of the book where you want your heroine on every page so i think that's a great way to leave us in suspense until next month's chapter when we come back to lyra but for now we're going to head

over to mary malone into chapter 27 platform where we open the chapter with a poem from andrew marvell it's actually stanza 7 of the garden by andrew marvell my soul into the boughs does glide there like a bird it sits and sings then wets and combs its silver wings i love this poem it's gorgeous imagery you kind of feel as if you are in eden which is very much uh the beginning of this chapter right mary levitating outside of her body seeing the wonders about her before the horrors as well mixed in there and the language and prose is actually really akin to plotness's enneads in my opinion romantic beautiful mystical magical you know during the commonwealth period andrew marvell was a colleague and friend of john

milton so that kind of flows, right? I feel like all of these beautiful poems that he quotes at the top are all best buddies with each other talking about existence, depression in life. So perfect, perfect for these books. My personal favorite stanzas from this poem are, No white nor red was ever seen, so amorous as this lovely green. Fond lovers, cruel as their flame, cut in these trees their mistress's name. Little alas, they know her heed, how far these beauties hers exceed. Fair trees, where so e'er your barks I wound, no name shall but your own be found. When we have run our passions heat, love hither makes his best retreat. The gods who mortal beauty chase, still in a tree,

did end their race. Apollo hunted Daphne so only that she might laurel grow, and Pan did after Syrinx speed, not as a nymph, but for a reed gorgeous imagery very pleasant very floating and it leads us perfectly in to the amber spy glasses 27th chapter yes absolutely um i love what you're saying about eden and here we go here we go the malefa work quickly to build Mary a platform. Within two days it's built and lifted into place, and when she climbs it, she feels physically the happiest she's ever been. Looking down at the dense greenery, the rich blue sky, the breeze, the scent of flowers, and the birdsong.

If she could have stopped thinking, she would have, but unfortunately, she's there to think. She uses the spyglass to watch the drifting shadow particles, the same ones that had passed through all the worlds alike, and presuming that this is the same as what she studies in her universe, let alone the same shadows

in every universe. We have a quote of 300 years ago, the Royal Society was set up up the first true scientific society in her world newton was making his discoveries about optics and gravitation 300 years ago in lyra's world someone invented the alethiometer at the same time in that strange world through which she come to get here the subtle knife was invented and like yeah it's like

cool and we're finally getting all that stuff about the 300 years you know like all coming together in these chapters and we're like oh it means something but i i personally this is just like on a personal aspect as a reader i'm kind of like meh on the assertion that like the royal society is the first true scientific society like in our world. I don't know. It seems a little Eurocentric. We definitely had people who were like doing experiments and philosophy and things like that prior to that, that weren't like necessarily in Europe.

So I mean, to be fair, to be fair, these books are pretty Eurocentric. I know. I know. I agree. I agree.

I understand that. I'm just like i just wanted to get that off my chest now if eliana if you were willing to time travel back to the 90s and have a chat with phil i would love to record that and put that on this podcast but six-year-old me hello mr palman what is that are you a bird? No, I agree. I'm glad we get the actual understanding now. Like, oh, this is what

happened across all worlds. But does it matter? It does it from, like, a world-building aspect. Like, that's cool. It's cool for lore. Yeah. And I like lore. Lore's fun. It's not, lore. Yeah. And I like lore. Lore is fun.

It's not like the thing that I'm obviously like, as we've discussed, probably like in a song of my life or whatever. It's like that, you know, my big driver, but it's fun. I like lore. Yeah. Agreed. Agreed. I do like lore and I don't know.

I like lore. I think it works, but I do get what you mean that I'm like, okay. And yeah, I'm like, it I don't know. I like lore. I think it works, but I do get what you mean that I'm like, okay. And yeah, I'm like, it's fun in the story, but I'm just like,

really? I don't know. So. Well, and Mary is thinking about it to be fair. She's thinking about it a little bit too. Maybe as much as you are. She's laying on the planks,

swaying in the breeze, holding the spyglass up, watching the sparkles drift and she thinks what had happened 300 years ago was it the cause of dust or the other way around it was a hard she drifts off with her thoughts no oh my god she drifts off with her fucking thoughts and suddenly she snaps awake and she panics. Something had happened to the dust wind. Instead of the slow drift that she's used to, the Margaritaville pace going on, it races like a river in a flood. She realizes she's no longer on the platform.

She's drifting above her slumbering body and she can't bring herself back. of her slumbering body and she can't bring herself back the dust is streaming along as if pouring over an invisible edge carrying her from her body and she flings herself mentally trying to remember feelings of being alive her friend at house trunk bacon and eggs climbing rocks roasting coffee little by little she finds herself easing back down the dust slowing down as well so this moment of mary feeling disconnected from her body and then panicking but like using physical sensations to return and be in the moment actually reminds me a lot of like some of the grounding techniques for dealing with anxiety attacks because i deal with that and here's essentially like the one that i kind of use slash no and this is like kind of summarized from the University of Rochester.

There might be like different versions, but this is kind of it. Like the acknowledge five things you see around you, right? It could be a pen, a spot on the ceiling, but like five things you see. Then acknowledge four things that you can touch around you. Acknowledge three things you hear. Acknowledge two things you can smell. And acknowledge one thing you can taste and it's basically like using physical sensations to return to yourself to like this moment instead

of like spiraling right and as we can see a physical experience and enjoying it in general right living with those sensations is such a big part of the thesis of these books i love this aspect of the chapter because it's also quite a mixture of lucid dreaming in some aspects right but also sleep paralysis in a few ways right when she starts to panic a little bit uh and we've talked a little bit about some of the mindset you have to be in for the alethiometer, right? There's the negative capability that's going to come up actually in the next chapter once more on the cast. But you have to put yourself into another mindset to read the alethiometer, to use the subtle knife, ysahar, and also to read the ijin which mary does so there's different stages right of being disconnected from your body and your consciousness which in its own way as we say that doesn't it

make you think of severing and separation right at that time, floating away from your body, you're actually you are choosing to sever yourself from your consciousness. And so the different stages of that are the intruder stage where you have a sense of a presence, sometimes evil or hallucinations, an intruder, basically on your consciousness, something that feels unwelcome, an incubus, a feeling of pressure on your chest, suffocation, physical pain, and then there's vestibular motor, feature illusory movement, out of body experiences. And this unintentional or intentional separation or dissociation from your body kind of requires immense focus, somewhat peacefulness in some aspects and

connection basically between your mind and body to be able to ascend out of your body and seek consciousness. Like what Mary is doing is actually pretty much the stages of what you hope and want to do with meditation, as weird as that sounds, that she's able to guide her thoughts, even if her body's not really letting her come home to it, it's a testament to the focus that it would require for her to read the I Ching and what she's been actually able to accomplish. And if she's able to catapult herself out of her body, right, to be able to watch consciousness bloom around her and vibe out there on the astral plane, it isn't really that far off from what will

is able to do from cutting open reality with a knife i like that mary's plot has transformed into using the spyglass in this aspect because it does show that what she has she has her own superpower now like she's always been able to see consciousness whether she realized it or not she studied it she's wanted it near her she's craved it near her she's always been able to see consciousness whether she realized it or not she studied it she's wanted it near her she's craved it near her she's followed it now she just needed an instrument to actually channel the matter and the magic through it and she has that channel she has the amber spyglass she has the uh the mirror that she made the lacquered mirror that alone proves the power was always within her now she just needs the material

to see it with yeah it seems like some of the instruments kind of like help focus right and i like what you're saying of that that's really interesting that the out-of-body experience is well some people use it well and like in a way that's helpful for them, like I guess John Perry was able to do that. Mary doesn't, I guess, have that control. So I think that's really interesting that you're saying like there's that fearfulness of it being separated from your demon because it is like those aspects you would associate with a demon that, as you said, consciousness, the physical sensations that she uses to return and pulling on that connection. And kind of like, as an aside, it's funny that you're talking about these instruments and we have like three special ones.

Okay, I'm just going to say it reminds me of the talismans from Sailor Moon. Yes, of the Outer Senshi! Yes, one of them is a knife. Okay, kind of. It's a sword. A mirror. It's a mirror. It's kind of like a spyglass in a way, sort of them is a knife. Okay, kinda. It's a sword. A mirror. It's a mirror. It's kinda like a spyglass, in a way, sort of.

The glaive. Oh, that's right. There's more than three. Shit. Then you have the time key and the glaive. Wait, was the save like one of them? I know the time key is one. Like, the orb. The orb is. The glaive is a Taru Saturn's.

Yeah, I forgot that that was also technically a talisman and then there's of course the the chalice the chalice so anyway i guess it doesn't work that well because there's too many whatever but i actually argue it does work well no because they're explaining that many instruments have all been born around the same time like so many methods were actually born of how to read consciousness that people figured it out this isn't new necessarily it's just a new refinement yeah focusing and people focusing and yeah i guess there were a lot of alethiometers too only one knife they are just using some grit dust to really get into it i gotta use those more i gotta use those more i use them all the time baby i'm

at i'm at five stars i got the game four days ago when i'm at five stars would you like to talk about it what is fine oh oh holy shit that just sank in that sank in just now i'm depressed or is this like being truly alive i don't know uh i mean reality does seem fake ask mary malone exactly so mary malone watches the particles resist the flow around her and realizes they are conscious all around her the dust keeps quickly flowing but surrounding her directly it is all slowed and stilled she presses herself down and is infused with a deep ecstasy of being whole once more she sits up taking stock finding the spyglass and looking to the dust in the sky it's all flowing steadily like it did in her dream it's a flood of dust but she now can sense the

dust more and feels that it's almost sorrowful that the particles knew what was happening i i thought it was kind of pointed that it's called like a flood of dust right and i don't uh-huh think there's like much of it but like i i think there's something to it in that i mean floods are pretty also significant in a lot of creation myths. A lot of creation myths, a lot of creation stories, a lot of creation books. A lot of creation books of dust. Interesting. Oh, wait, that's right.

Yeah, it is. I feel like that's not a spoiler. It's on the cover he's on a boat the lonely island mary malone puts her spyglass away after all this right like she gets down she's like i long for earth once more i love this in contrast to will's dad telling them you can't stay in the world together. Right? Heartbreaking. Fucking heart-wrenching.

Wonder how that's going to affect the end of the book. Glossing over that, that being in a world or outside of your world could possibly be unhealthy for you in aspects. And Mary Malone and her lucid dreams. I imagine her dreaming in the sky is cool, but probably only for so long, right? Like it could be bad for you. You could be lost forever in the astral plane looking for consciousness. And then there's that giant metaphor that's involved in all of this of like people chasing after something or someone for so long that they can forget to live their life, right? While wasting their actual life. I think that really brings true with a lot of these plots. Marisa, Lyra, Mary.

That if you stay up in the tree, in the clouds, if you open another window, Will Perry, you might forget to live, right? Mary Malone, get down from that tree because you might forget to live. That's a really great point i like that and also yeah that pairs well with the idea of like you can create change wherever you are and perhaps it is even imperative that you do that's a good point i mean that's what the story's all about right like that change Like, that change. Probably. Creating that change. I mean, for Lyra and Will, it feels like that's necessary.

It could be. We're just, we've just given up. Let's just throw it off pretense. Anyways. So, meanwhile, we cut to very much not Mary Malone. It's Father Gomez. He's stepping through a window in the evening light it's kind of like what we ended last chapter on but actually very different and terrible

he sees the great real trees and roads and he can see a bit farther than Mary had when she arrived for it had rained recently and it's nice and clear specifically he can see large white shapes like sails he lifts his bag on his shoulders and takes off towards the bay where the tide Specifically, he can see large white shapes like sails.

He lifts his bag on his shoulders and takes off towards the bay, where the tide seems to be pretty high and a dozen or more enormous snow-white birds, each the size of a rowboat, are in the water. Where's Cassidy? Where's our friend Cassidy? We need them here. You know, these birds have long wings, two yards in length, feathers, heads, swan-like beaks. It's the Dua Lipa, everyone. It is the Dua Lipa. The Tualapi. The Dua Lipa. It's the same thing.

It's really the same thing. And suddenly the birds, the borbs all turn with a snap. They see Father Gomez and their wing sails are raised high, right? Like their wings are raised high like yacht sails and they make for the shore. And he watches them and he's like, huh, their legs are paddling underwater. They're quick. They're graceful. They have teeth in their beak. One of them begins to make directly for Father Gomez, hissing, and Father Gomez casually takes out his rifle, aiming, firing, and exploding the bird's head. It takes a minute to die, and then it does so bloodily, and the

birds stop watching Father Gomez, a fierce intelligence and calculation in their eyes, looking from him to the bird to the rifle to him, and we have this passage, they were fine, strong creatures, large and broad-backed, like living boats. In fact, if they knew what death was, thought Father Gomez, and if they could see the connection between death and himself, then there was the basis of a fruitful understanding between them. Once they had truly learned to fear him, they would do exactly as he said. So fucked up, mate. So fucked up. I feel so sad for the Dua Lipa because it almost seems like there could have been a

reconciliation between them and the Mulefa elephant. And yes, right? Like we know they're going to be a problem. They're in the same world. He's now changing their behavior. Now that a stranger's come in fucked up their ecosystem started to learn how to enslave their entire population i don't feel hopeful yeah it seems bad i don't know if i like felt hopeful i don't know because like

it felt as though the two alapi were like meant to be the magisterium of that world but also i'm like they feel pretty different but i don't know i will say that the way that father gomez approaches this that he like feels like he can force them into obeying him because of like his weapons right through his will slash fear reminds me a little bit of someone else entering another world and by that i mean mrs coulter and chitagatse and then how she is able to control the specters yeah that's a really great point i didn't think about that at all but it has that same exact energy uh and him taking his own army that's what she took yeah pretty much he's like i'm scary it is kind of like such a it's such a great tight plot right like mary malone's chapters are so purposeful and intentional

in this book that he doesn't get more time than he needs on the page and pullman makes that very very clear and very quick that like now here's Gomez at the very end of the chapter for three paragraphs that's gonna fuck shit up and that's all he needs and I like that. I really do like that. Yeah. Absolutely. Well that brings us into our

last chapter for this episode, chapter 28 Midnight. Midnight, not a sound on the pavement Cats the musical Cats, cats midnight midnight not a sound on the pavement cats musical cats cats that's not

that's not it that's it she's smiling alone Eliana what are we open with we open with not

not cats not the T.S. Eliot not this T.S. Eliot poem or inspiration, but John Keats. We have a line of, for many a time I have been half in love with easeful death. This is Ode to a Nightingale by John Keats, and it's actually in my top, probably my top 10 of poems. I don't know if I've actually said this out loud, but you guys know I'm a huge poetry nerd. Like you've been here for that part. But like when I say I'm a big poetry nerd, I did slam poetry.

I didn't know this about you. Oh, I don't want to like come clean about it. But in a way, I have to that i did slam poetry i read emily dickinson in fourth grade and cried about how much i loved her like the first time i've ever been published in a public work was actually a poetry compilation uh when i was like 13 i love poetry i do it's very pleasing right like it's short fulfilling but yet it's a snippet you know it's like a quick come i love that shit i fucking love like an emotional orgasm out of like i don't know this much text you know it's very powerful that's powerful in my opinion it is it is but i don't

know you used to do slam poetry it was for like a year and a half. We don't have to talk about it ever again. We could. We could talk about it again. Don't tell people. If they want to know, Eliana. It's sick in the podcast. If they want to know, they have to listen to the podcast. They have to listen to two-thirds of the way at least through this episode.

Big fucking blue balls and tees is what I'm saying. Anyway, Ode to a Nightingale is a great poem, one of my favorites, and it's a perfect poem for this chapter, because when I read this chapter, I was very taken with Mr. Bacillides' role as being the alethiometrist for Asriel's side of the aid that he brings to Coulter and his nightingale demon. of the aid that he brings to Coulter and his Nightingale demon. He's the one to deliver word that Lyra lives to Coulter. And according to Keats' friend, Charles Armitage Brown, the poem was written under a plum tree in the garden of Keats' house at Wentworth Place, where a Nightingale made its new home and sang all day. It's actually Keats' longest ode, 80 lines, describing his journey into negative capability, which we've talked about here on the cast, thanks to you, Eliana, and of course our friend Warren.

Actually, he's a big Keats fan. Negative capability is a phrase used by Keats in 1817 to explain the capacity of the greatest writers to pursue an artistic vision, right? Artistic beauty, even when it leads them into intellectual confusion and uncertainty, as opposed to a preference for philosophical certainty over artistic beauty. Following the beautiful things in life wherever they lead you. And the tone of Ode to Nightingale is actually very different than Keats's earlier works. It explores nature, transience, mortality, something that was very important and relevant for Keats in his end of his career. He was very obsessed with mortality. And the poem talks about the nightingale experiencing death, but never actually dying,

living through its entire song, which humans don't always get to do, right? It ends with acceptance. Pleasure can't last. Death's inevitable. In the poem, Keats imagines the loss of the physical world and sees himself dead as almost like a sod over which the nightingale seems. Not unlike the abyss, right? Not like the abyss below right now. I think it's so interesting that Mary and Marisa come to almost the exact same conclusions from very different hypotheses and practicing, right? Mary realizes that the flow of the world, the molecules that are moving in the world and why they're moving, she understands it all and chooses to float back down. Marisa comes to accept the abyss is open below

them to swallow them and that maybe the abyss is actually worse than death itself and she's like i'm ready for a suicide mission let's fucking go well at the moment it sounds like yeah she's just like ready to for suicide right whereas mary i mean she steps up to it and she's like, well, we do what we have to where we can. She knows that she's there to think and meets the challenge. But for now, Asriel

wakes Marisa as they are about to land the intention craft and Zephaniah is gliding above the landing to bring them in. Asriel immediately leaps out to chat with King Ogunwe and ignores Marisa, which is kind of like what pretty much everyone else does right now, because

apparently no one cares that she stole a ship. Actually, that was according to Keikaku, but she was invisible, but for the orderly that would bring her food and coffee. She schemes to have Mr. Basilides, the alethiometrist, for Asriel's side to come chat with her and she changes into a clean shirt

and lights some coals for her room, just to like heat it up a bit. The alethiometrist with his nightingale demon arrives, bowing, accepting some coffee and telling her the news. Lyra is still alive, but also

in the world of the dead it seems impossible but marise accepts it all the same i love the nightingale demon as we talked about with the poem just to pull a demon corner in the end of the book nightingales are often seen as symbols of beauty and melody and because they're nocturnal also darkness and mysticism and something that i think is more interesting and kind of shines in pullman using the poem at the start of the chapter is that they have a very rich repertoire and they're able to produce over 1 000 different sounds where you know skylarks for example can only produce 340 different sounds and blackbirds can only do 100 different sounds so part of the brain for nightingales responsible for creating sound is actually bigger than in most other birds you

know exactly what you'd need if you were reading the alethiometer and remembering all of these meanings interesting interesting i thought it was so pointed i was like oh that's why he's an alethiometrist because he can remember more and has a capacity for more like his demon and that idea of song right of the nightingale and the notes as you were saying and lyra and the liar and song maybe i don't know oh a player and a liar oh yeah just music of the world anyways so chloe's face right now is like what the fuck is going on why is eliana singing from cats one of our listeners said explicitly

on an iTunes review once that they were hooked on the podcast because we talked about cats, so clearly this is a selling point for us. Anyway. Mr. Basilides tells Marisa that Lyra did all this because she'd overheard a

prophecy, and now she's gonna free the ghosts and themselves from the world of the dead, the best news of all that bomb did not hurt her so it is not all in vain and mrs coulter is in pain emotionally but also physically as you'll remember it was a pretty it was a pretty gnarly fight she's keeping it together somewhat mrs coulter does express gratitude to the alethiometrist and then goes to lie down on her bed and she's trying to rest but cannot cannot seem to be able to she can't close her eyes and i'm i'm just saying this is a really big part a big contrast of how we can understand mrs coulter and lyra's characters because lyra is very good at sleeping and mrs

coulter apparently can't just do it yeah well as lyra will learn someday as an adult sleeping is hard when life sucks yeah so true so true god every night i lie awake and i stare at the ceiling anyways meanwhile asriel and a gunway are staring out of a telescope at the sky where a mountain covered in cloud has appeared yes it's so metal the chariot the clouded mountain one thing is for sure metatron has the wheel metatron they speak of him in the apocryphal scriptures he was a man once a man called enoch the son of jared six generations away from adam and now he rules the. And he's intending to do more than that, if that angel they found by the sulfur lake was correct. The one who entered the clouded

mountain to spy. If he wins this battle, he intends to intervene directly into human life. We'll talk a lot more about Metatron in the following two months. He ends up getting a personality, no spoilers, ends up getting a personality. He becomes such a large part, right? Of this corruption that's going on that we've seen from the first two books through the CCD,

through the authority. And, you know, that corruption, especially from a meta level, a meta Metatron level, if you will, if you won't, that corruption, especially from a meta level, a meta Metatron level, if you will. Whoa.

If you won't, that's fine, too. Metatron's word is not considered canon in real life. It's not considered gospel or scripture. It was slowly phased out and looked down upon by many organized religions, whether Judaism or Christianity. The first book of Enoch describes the fall of the Watchers, the angels who fathered the angel-human hybrids called the Nephilim. The remainder of the book describes Enoch's revelations and visits to heaven in forms of travels, visions, dreams, not unlike Mary in the last chapter, right, where she's traveling via dream and vision.

via dream and vision and the book consists of five distinct major sections the book of watchers the book of parables of enoch the astronomical book the book of dream visions and the epistle of enoch many scholars believe these five sections were originally independent works with different dates of composition a product of how much editorial arrangement and they were only later redacted into what is now called enoch one one enoch interesting interesting and yes we will talk about him more going forward it's a bummer that like this enoch like such an asshole because he was a homie in Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. Different Enof. Anyway. So, a permanent inquisition to ruin everyday human life. I mean, did we

really need a rogue angel to do that? I couldn't do that on my own. And he started by invading the Republic. He noticed a gray drift off of the clouded mountain, but after looking closer, they're like, oh shit, that's not smoke, those are angels. In the tens of thousands, the sky darkened with their presence.

They stream slowly to the north and south, and the clouds part for only a moment for Asriel and the gunwade to see the mountain. But then the swirl covers it once more. A gunwade notes that that's not a mountain, that's no moon. Agunwe notes that that's not a mountain. That's no moon. It's complexity of things. And guns were the first thing he could see on that mountain. And Agunwe seems a little bit in despair that, oh, maybe their armies could overpower our little operation. But Azrael reminds him that they are stronger than them.

They haven't got flesh. He laid his hand against his friend's rough cheek oh i've read some things interesting i didn't few as we are he went on and short-lived as we are and weak-sighted as we are these are all trending downward in comparison with them we're still stronger they envy us a gunway that's what fuels their hatred i'm sure of it i'm not so sure of it it's an interesting bit of projection maybe maybe but i mean metatron's lived that life before and he clearly was like that kind of sucked so does he i don't know maybe maybe he does that because he wanted to be alive again who knows

maybe that's beyond the books too right like in some aspects i'm like i don't and this isn't really a spoiler i just don't think metatron's motivations are actually explored in full and in earnest level to to analyze it on that level right i'm like maybe that's a whole nother story that metatron failed tried failed tried i agree i don't think i think i have thought about this just like only a smidgen more not by that much more this would be more than than philippe but so the horse yeah i don't which what a horse philippe the horse maybe it's not i know it's the prince. No, it's Philippe. It's Belle's horse.

Belle's Belgian draft horse. I didn't remember his name. I'm sorry. I don't remember that horse's name. I remember the cub. I remember Chip. I remember Chip and Lumiere. Where's your horse goddess now? She's fallen.

I'm talking about you. I's she's fallen i'm talking about you yeah yeah no i know she's fallen it's because you know she envies the the short-lived weak-sighted fleshy people um anyway asriel maybe projecting maybe not i want to talk a little bit about the angels and their structure because angels as we see right they are in many ways similar to demons. They disintegrate similarly when dying, and they are beings of consciousness. And also the alethiometer explicitly tells Lyra, yeah, we're dust and angels, so those are made of the same thing. Now, I am not so sure if human ghosts slash spirits are technically made of dust or not. We have somewhat of an argument against it, right? Not against it.

We have somewhat of an argument speaking to that from John Perry saying, like, well, the specters seem to like to eat demons, but we don't have demons, so perhaps we stand a chance. So, I'm wondering, like, is there, like, a process there that, again, I've probably thought about this a little more than Philippe, um, of, like, how one becomes an angel, you know, by there that, again, I've probably thought about this a little more than Philippe, of how one becomes an angel by somehow transforming the ghost into a being of consciousness and dust?

Is there an act of severing somewhat that goes into it to become an angel? I don't know. It does seem like they are, realistically speaking, like they're're different plane of emotion right do they merge i mean they obviously wow like the digimon fanfic about their sex anyways there is there has to be both amos and baruch anyways but um i'm just imagining like the light merging and the dust being i'm telling you it's digimon we've talked about digimon a lot our podcast champions angel it's angel mon angel angel angel woman angel oh yeah that's all there is also angel woman yep yep yeah uh i'm interested though is there a severing i mean back to what i was saying before the digimon emotionally

they are on a very different plane right like the things they care about and maybe that's just from age wisdom magic aren't the same as what our protagonists care about and they're very removed from the actuality of what it means when a human dies for example so interesting they are severed in some aspects from reality whether they are or not i mean they are i think it's like i guess some of them because like obviously the alethiometer slash dust they seem to be invested in lyra's campaign and zephania seems invested in care i mean zephania cares about the plight of Lyra and Will. And then also Baruch and Balthamos, they have a lot of feelings. Very emotional. And so I guess it's some of them, right? Some of them, as you said, they seem detached, but some of them are not. And those who care, as we can see, they are still kind of in touch with a sense of humanity and consciousness if anything it just makes me think more of seraphina right if we want an explanation i think it's closer to how seraphina regards things how 300 to 500 year old feuds last uh interesting i think it's time I think time is really the ingredient here. Time and power, I think, is...

Yeah. Kanga Gunway argues they have living, flesh-owning allies from thousands of worlds over there in the Bad Army, and Asriel's like, yeah, but we're gonna win. Gunway wonders if the armies will be

looking for Lyra, Asriel's child, and Asriel exalts and he's like aren't i so great for pumping that sperm into the universe like what a magnificent child i did such a great job she's going to the world of dead i want to shake her boyfriend's hand right for wielding that knife so i do appreciate the style like i i kind of read some of it a little different i for me i kind of read a bit of pride in asriel right because finally like we see maybe this is how he's really felt about his daughter the whole time and he's just like the biggest tsundere ever in the series there's this line that i like of like did we know what we were taking on when we started this

rebellion no but did they know the authority in his region this metatron did we know what we were taking on when we started this rebellion no but did they know the authority in his region this metatron did they know what they were taking on when my daughter got involved and turns out this whole time i mean maybe he actually was pretty impressed with his daughter the whole time like what she did in the north and he was just like negging mrs coulter earlier in the book when he said those mean things about lyra because as we find out later on in the book he's like yeah i just like lied to you about my plans uh so he probably lied about his feelings about lara too but i think there's finally like a bit of that parental aspect that we see in asriel where he thinks of like you know my kids are my kid is better than me she surpassed

me and again that idea of wanting to leave the world a better place for his child in this chapter and you know we do see asriel saying that he's more than enough to give metatron and the authority a run for their money so i i think again there's that sense of pride of like that well if he and his army were underestimated he sees lyra as a much more powerful force than even him you know eliana you know what i've always said about you i've always said you are charitable and beautiful and funny and i'm gonna stick to that now. Are you just quoting Leslie Knope? What about Anne? Nope, that's just how I sound.

That's just the sound of my voice. I don't know, sometimes it blends. You beautiful, talented, gorgeous musk ox. Oh my god. Kang Agunwe asks if Asriel knew of Lyra's importance before all of this and agunway's like no i mean i didn't know that but that's that's why i wanted to talk to mr facilities facilities however is tired from coulter's interrogation but asriel doesn't care he's

like send for him anyway he also asks the new galabespian uh character to be introduced in the late book here madam occidential the galabespian second in command to be sent to the tower he needs to give her some condolences over lord rogues death she'd be taking over his post throughout the day his angels fly over the mountain looking for a weakness, but nothing changes at the clouded mountain. The day dies and the armies start to get set in place for the rebellion. Pansierborn march from the north, guided by their king to join the war, and the first of several witch clans arrive. Farther away, Asriel's angels are spying, right? They're toiling, they're keeping watch. At midnight, asriel holds council in the adamant tower with a gunway zephania madam existential and two gross facilities who had just given them

something from the alethiometer that made asriel pale he invites them to have a wine with them and king of gunway pours asriel's favorite tokai and asks asriel what does it all mean, man? And it is that when the battle joins, they have a new objective. Lyra and Will have separated from their demons, survived, and their demons are in this world and Metatron is intent on capturing them. If he can control their demons and capture them, then the future is Metatron's. So, said Lord Asriel, to sum it up, all of us, our republic, the future of every conscious being, we all depend on my daughter's remaining alive. And on keeping her demon and the boys out of the hands of Metatron? The answer is yes. I will say some of these things here, you might have all noticed the Republic of Heaven language comes up twice in these three chapters.

So there's some things tying together John Perry and Asriel's visions and expectations for the future. Just keep an eye on that. Asriel instructs his commanders to defend the fortress and find the children and their demons. That the boy will be able to help them escape to other worlds, and Madame Accentiel will take charge of this. We have a line of, The lady nodded, her stiff gray hair caught the lamplight, glinting like stainless steel, and the blue hawk she had inherited from Lord Roke spread his wings briefly on the bracket by the door. So I think this is an important slash interesting

reminder that, you know, I was getting carried away earlier, but the Galavespians mounts, they're not exactly like their demons, right? Like, essential, like, inheriting this verb, being able to share it with, like, a previous other Galavespian shows it's pretty different. I think that's beautiful.

It's great. I do think it's so beautiful. It's kind of like dragons. I think it's so beautiful it's kind of like dragons yeah it is it's dragon rider it's dragon fly rider it's hawk rider for her and I love her it's hawk guy

I love her description her stiff gray hair showing that of their people, that is them. Right? Stiff, harsh, just a little bit. But I love the passing down, and it does remind me of some of the demon traditions we know about.

Like the demons naming the child demon. In some aspects, it has that same kind of familial bond. There's a bond that bird already has from somebody that did their duty uh and i actually regret i don't no spoilers i don't think we get a lot on madam existential after this uh not too much right we see her doings but they don't mean as much as the the gal of espions we've already met i kind of forgot she was a character in this book until this review so yeah absolutely 100 100 that's what i said just shorter

i'm willing to admit that i i'm just willing to like put that out there yeah i had no clue i had no clue and maybe next episode we'll we'll chat more on like her etymology and a little bit more about her because i was so taken off guard i completely forgot about her yeah i was like oh wow well asriel asked zephania not what she knows of madama zential but of metatron and while zephania hasn't seen metatron up close he was strong he relished combat and he always wonriel gets inspired, his focus suddenly withdrawing, and says he sees. He mentions that Mr. Basilides informed him that the Magisterium's bomb didn't just open an abyss below, but also structured the actual foundation of worlds so that there are fissures and cracks everywhere. He commands them to look for a way down to the edge of the

abyss, because he plans on destroying Metatron with it. He says that his part is nearly over, and now it's time for Lyra to live, she and that boy and their demons, a safer world for the both of them. And again, as we've said a couple of times, the whole message of create change where you are, but also the accompanying of that message with

and leave it better for those who come after. Hmm. Like you said earlier, about them just trying to improve the world a little bit, yes. I try to do that. Great, great messaging, Eliana. Really well done.

I don't know that I would have necessarily taken that, but for somebody that blasted an entire hole in existence I'm very surprised that now Asriel wants to make the world a better place

is Asriel just like I want to see all holes blown into the universe Asriel's like even sinners can repent would you call that hole like a glory hole on the universe, then? Which one? Both? Yes.

It's like a giant glory hole in the middle of the universe, the abyss. In that the universes get fucked? Yes. Also yes, but just that it's just like this gaping fucking hole. Yeah, a fucking hole. Yes. Yeah. So King of Gunwayway speaking of fucking holes

king of gunway what the fuck what about mrs coulter king of gunway is like this is a feminist perspective podcast first of all gunway seems like a nice man um he's done nothing gunway asks what about mrs coulter and azrael's like just leave her be protect her if the fighting reaches her aw uwu he has a second thought he's like maybe i'm doing her an injustice she's never failed to surprise me maybe maybe she could be beneficial out there but nonetheless the goal is save lyra meanwhile coulter is lying in azrael's bed very familiar next door hearing voices and stirring. Her demon sat up beside her, but she didn't want to move closer to the door.

It was simply the sound of Lord Azriel's voice she wanted to hear, rather than any particular words. She thought they were both doomed. She thought they were all doomed. It's a projection. Anyways, it's a very emotional moment in my opinion i'm actually very sad uh her emotional state this whole chapter yeah listen as a colter stand girl what i can tell you is her emotional state makes me very sad in this chapter that she's kind of given up she's like oh nothing means anything oh i toiled at the magisterium for

30 fucking years whatever 25 years 20 years and this is what i get the end of the world and all of a sudden death doesn't matter nothing matters the afterlife doesn't matter it's all a lie uh her whole world is topsy-turvy right now yeah i mean what she needs to do is find five pokemon guardians colter hears the door close in the other room and stands and she walks toward naphtha light where asriel is alone at his mat she asks what'll happen to us fatigued their demons are very still he's surprised she wasn't eavesdropping like she normally would and she asks where's lyra does anyone know he says no and she could tell that he's withholding information she says something that surprises him she says we should have married and brought her up ourselves yeah so marisa's full of surprises

for asriel this i mean like in these few pages like every single thing she says he's like what the fuck surprise surprise surprise and i will say though like it's nice that she thinks this but there's a part of me that's low-key like, I mean, was Lyra like, would she have been worse off being raised by Lord Asriel and Marisa than the life that she had? I mean, they didn't grow to this level until today, so yeah.

Yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah, I feel like... Of any of them, Marisa is doing the most the most though right now as far as repenting you know like she's really marisa's going through it marisa is getting in those emotions at the end of the world she's like oh wow i did terrible things yeah now i'm repenting. She's like, I have regrets. She's like, I made a huge mistake. And she was like, please cross out the no and just leave the regrets. Yeah. Whereas Asriel is like, I'm going to get the tattoo today.

Hashtag no ragrats spelled that way. That's him today. He is no ragrats. Yeah, absolutely. And Marisa actually has this great little passage up above here where she's talking about oblivion she she starts to go on and she's like i can't bear the thought of oblivion anything but that she used to think that hell pain that would be better than feeling nothing forever and ever. I love this passage.

His part was simply to listen. His eyes were locked on hers and he was paying profound attention. There was no need to respond. She said, the other day when you spoke about her so bitterly and about me, I thought you hated her. I could understand your hating me. I've never hated you hated her i could understand you're hating me i've never hated you but i could understand i could see why you might hate me but i couldn't see why you hated lyra so sad i know i think he was just a better liar than i guess both of them

and comes from one of them right comes from both that girl had no chance she's gonna be alive about coulter's never lied in her life oh my god well mrs coulter remembers something from svalbard that asriel had said on the mountaintop come with me and we'll destroy dust forever but his journey was the opposite. It was to preserve dust. And she asks, why did he lie? And he tells her, well, I thought you'd prefer a lie.

And that he'd actually really wanted her to join him. Communication's important to relationships, everyone. All right, just communicate with each other. Because, I mean, the tragedy of Maurice and Asriel is important to relationships everyone all right just communicate with each other because i mean the tragedy of marisa and azrael is first of all again terrible communication second of all they clearly desired each other i mean maybe even loved each other but they clearly i think i don't know that they ever really understood each other right marisa struggles to even understand herself so good fucking luck azrael and i mean obviously she's been lying to move ahead in the world, right?

She's been playing games her whole life. She surprises Asriel because turns out he doesn't really get her or what she wants. That's why he's always surprised by her. But also, I mean, of course, because not only... Of course he'd assume that because Marisa spent so much time just lying to herself how could she know how could Asriel know that turns out for once all that she really wanted was the

truth yeah and there's a certain vulnerability right and you get these flashbacks to the northern lights golden compass where her demon swooned into his demon right and some of the kind of just the physical relationship in this chapter and she's making herself very vulnerable

to him um a side of culture that we don't necessarily see unless she's using it to seduce and murder right like where she's like here i am tee. Look at my girlish flesh. Here. She's not doing it for that. She's doing it as a last stand. Like, this is it. This is all we have. The abyss is below us and it's now. It's now for the truth. Yeah.

I guess she had a near-death experience too, now that I think about it. Yeah. She watched Roke die instead. That was sad. Marisa murmurs asriel's name and the monkey puts his hand out as if to touch the snow leopard's paw asriel doesn't move his eyes fixed on coulter and stalmaria's as well coulter asks what will happen to usriel, if this is the end of everything. And she moves as if in a dream. She reaches in her bag and she goes to grab her pistol. But whatever she planned to do, whether herself or Asriel, is interrupted footsteps running upstairs to inform them that two demons have been

spotted at the gate in the form of cats, but they wouldn't come near the sentry he was calling after them. I bet Pullman doesn't know what Mrs. Coulter was going to do either. He likes that ambiguity. It feels sexy. It feels Riverdale, you know? There's a gun. Alice Cooper's going to use it.

My fucking god. The fatigue melts from Asriel's face and he launches into action, ignoring Coulter, shouting commands for Madame Exentiel and others at once, making sure everyone knows how they should be treating the demons. His voice and footsteps fade in the hall. Then Coulter finds the eyes of her demon. Almost an answer, right? That was an answer to her question right there.

No answer. And he's gone. The golden monkey's expression was as subtle and complex as it had ever been in all their 35 years of life very well she said i can't see any other way i think i think will he knew at once what she meant he leapt to her breast and they embraced then she found her fur-lined coat and they very quietly left the chamber and made their way down the dark stairs yes so it's it's such an interesting place to leave that off and you know as we've learned just now of Marisa longing for the truth,

perhaps she's learning it at the same time as the reader. And that expression of her embracing her demon, finally, I think we're seeing her come together with herself and be honest with herself. It's interesting, actually, the buildup she gets for this end of the novel and what pullman really does put into her i think she is on that path of repentance right she's doing what she can to repent in the time she has left but as she's noticing now it doesn't feel like there's

anything left there's no time left the world's disappearing and decaying it's very romantic in a way it is it's awfully romantic the sway of the demons and stell maria and the golden monkey and her being like yo asriel the world's ending what are we gonna do and him and heaven's warring yeah yeah his dark features all looking away unable what's the term the anime term unable to meet her eyes you know which one is that i don't know that one i don't know that it's not sundari what's the other ones come on eliana you're slacking there is it like mood area i don't know i don't remember all of them there's so many there's so many whatever one it is he's like he is like very much i can't meet your eye because if i do, that means death is imminent.

And she's like, but I'm ready to face death even if you're not, Clark Gable. Yes, it's like that. It really is. It's very old, dreamy, romantic movies. And I don't know, I really love that. It's because of the otherworldly feeling. Like if, you know, I highly recommend if you guys are looking for something to watch day to day, John Cocteau's Orpheus trilogy is really good.

It's just beautiful and sad and haunting and like a film masterpiece. Even if you're like not sure what you're watching because it is in French. Even if you're not 100% sure what's going on, like it's just gorgeous to watch it progress. But it's sad and haunting and fleeting. sure what's going on like it's just gorgeous to watch it progress but it's sad and haunting and fleeting and i feel like these three chapters even mary's in some aspects are all sad haunting fleeting they are they are i we're these are sad haunting and as you said fleeting we're really ramping up for some of that ending climax of the book. Sadder. Haunting her. Fleeting her. What do you mean? The story gets happy.

Happier. Oh god. Oh, authority. Oh, the authority. That's it, right? That's the end of the chapter. That's it for our non-spoiler review. We'll be back next month. I'm sorry, we non-spoiler review we'll be back i'm sorry we

did a bad job again we'll be back next month with hopefully minimal spoilers in our uh 29 30 and 31 battle on the plane clouded mountain authorities end whoa spoilers what could that be what the fuck hey that's the chapter title it's not my fault if you're a doctor who fan you know never read chapter titles before reading the chapters that said we only have one two three four episodes left four episodes so buckle up finish the book and if you have not read the outer books the nove novellas, the books of dust, the end of the book yet, please log off now. We don't want to spoil you. We'll have a very quick, very swift discussion today and join us next month.

But if you have read it, stay tuned for the discussion. Yeah, I have only a speck, a speck of dust for the discussion. Yeah. I have only a speck, a speck of dust for the discussion today. I'm assuming if you're still here, it's fine. Alright, I guess we gave you like 10 seconds, so I hope you move fast if you feel like you're listening on the speaker. Giving you a little bit more time.

But here it is. So, my one thought for the discussion today is we see in the chapter focused on mary platform mary doing some of that astral projection and of course as we've seen in previous chapters mary as an explorer traversing worlds and i think that there's something really fun here of how she's sort of being built up i think as a parallel to parallel to John Perry, which makes sense as she kind of takes on something of a surrogate parent slash mentor role for Will, because she's learning some of those same sort of mystical skills that John Perry had, has that same pursuit of knowledge, is very much

a scholar, right? And we find out John Perry kind of was in Lyra's world as Stanislaus Grumman. So she shares more with will's father than just a love of these kids she really shares a lot of i think those same core drivers that john perry had in this couple three chapters kind of the dark version of mary which is marisa and the light version of marisa which is Mary and seeing those together in kind of their just their subtle understanding that like all life ends ha their subtle knife understanding

their subtle understanding that all life ends and life right now is important or unimportant and Marisa's immediate turn to like take it out the gun could be me could be Asriel you know someone's gonna fucking die in this room and then you mary's understanding like oh life is important we have to fucking protect it uh yeah like their realizations were the same realizations but

absolute different tones of how they took them and john perry and asriel were also very kind of aligned with both of those as the dark versions. Like John and Mary were such light versions of it. And Asriel and Marisa, the darker versions, the dark mirrors across chapters. And seeing John Perry. Yeah, our world's the best. Yeah, it is. It really is. Seeing John Perry immediately throw it all out, right?

It just makes so much sense why Will's story and Mary's story gets to continue together in the end. Yeah. And I guess also, even like Mary's demon is a bird, same as John Perry's is also a bird. And yeah, what you were saying of like how Mary accepts, you know, sees life as something precious that should be protected. But I think she has a much more peace with it. Right. And John Perry, I think has some of those similar,

similar. And I think that comes from their, their similar backgrounds and oppressing themselves in some aspects like John Perry joined the Marines. Mary joined the fucking Abbey with a nun. Right. They devoted their lives giving them to someone else and then found themselves cheating on that world and wanting more for themselves and wanting

the truth and wanting freedom and free speech and to free others which is just as freeing as being free yourselves as we see Lyra and Will learn today yep so that's just something that stood out to me i was like have fun and yeah as you said uh there's always something there that

continues to strengthen that fascinating contrast between how mary's life and Marisa's life turned out yeah absolutely yeah that diversion in study that diversion in school that diversion in applying yourself and where each of them went what great characters go Pullman actually they really are though they are

actually if we don't get a Will novella yeah that's true I was gonna say that if we don't get a will novella yeah that's true i was gonna say if we don't get a will novella with mary involvement then i i don't know what to say about what the fame has done to pullman you know he doesn't remember what's important eliana what's important is us maybe he like wants to do it but he wants to like you know do it right do it right but at

the same time like the third book of dust sure I was gonna say like the sixth I guess uh ass off book but I think Pullman is better at getting something out on just putting something on the page right and being like we have to just go with this and letting the story

he's better at getting over that mental block I think you know he's just like no it's absolutely fair he's much more he's stricter I mean he is stricter about his regimen about his writing about how he writes he's organized

in some aspects some aspects not but many aspects he writes he's he's uh organized in some aspects some aspects not but many aspects he's very organized he's he's routine he's a man of routine it seems yeah he's willing to move the story forward even if i'm perfect but it's still as as we see it's a powerful story we love it but for for this trilogy oh that, that little applause. What a cute applause. What a cute applause. I don't have much else to add to the discussion this week besides, I guess this is it, right? We know it's

over. Will and Lyra can never be together. I mean, it's right there. Anybody that thought they could be was just fucking fooling themselves. Chloe. I mean, Chloe. It's over. It's fucking fucking over everything's awful yeah or maybe i don't know maybe it's all just beginning it's good we've only just begun white lace and promises of a third book and maybe novella we've only just

begun yeah I guess that's it I just can't believe we have four episodes left until it's all over it's awful and sad we haven't finished the series yet I don't know how to deal with it Eliana our demons are gonna settle

I'm still not ready I'm not ready either we have four months to figure out what they're gonna settle i'm still not ready i'm not ready either we have four months to figure out what they're gonna settle as i don't know enough animals tell us what your demon is if you guys are still listening here in this very dusty discussion the specks of dust everywhere tell us what your demons are you know like your settled demon not like your oh but he still changes sometimes no bitch you're like post-puberty your demon tell us what your demon is because i need a little inspo we got four months we really gotta sell it here you know yeah yep i mean i just wish i wish that as part of a promotional campaign hbo slash b slash BBC had just sent me a statue

to tell me we think this is your demon I wish they could have just told me what it was that's so funny you wish that because I wish as part of a promotional or marketing campaign that I got a blanket although I'm very grateful for the blanket that Eliana sent me

in lieu of me not getting the blanket I understand we have a lot of wishes yeah I mean very grateful for the blanket that Eliana sent me in lieu of me not getting the blanket. I understand. It's not the same. We have a lot of wishes. We have a lot of wishes. Yeah, I mean... I still keep hoping they're gonna send me a little

statue. Send us statues, please. Please, please, please. Well, okay, that said, we're gone till next month. We will be back at the end of next month with your next episode with Battle on the Plain, Clouded Mountain, and Authority's End. And then we will break into the final three episodes. We're going to be so sad. Can't wait to cry once more on this podcast with you all.

Indeed, indeed. But until then, let's say you have some thoughts. Perhaps, again, you would like to share your demon with us. You can find us on Twitter at Girls Gone Canon, C-A-N-O-N. Send us a tweet or shoot us a DM. Or if you'd like, you can also send us an email at girlsgonecanon at gmail.com. Yes, and if you're not already, make sure you're subscribed to us

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You'll find us yes and of course you can always find us on patreon.com slash girls gone canon where we host all of these episodes and also bonus episodes once a month and this month's bonus episode for patrons in the stranger tier and above is cersei by Madeline Miller C-I-R-C-E yeah and if you're in the thunder tier and above the ten dollar tier and above you will get access to our private discord server where there are 30 plus channels you can chat about anything and everything whether it's his dark materials a song Ice and Fire, or other pop culture and everyday life stuff with other fellow fans, it's a

blast, including weekly His Dark Material discussion events in the voice chat, as well as monthly chats for the brunch and happy hour, which we'll be announcing pretty soon for March. Well, thank you everyone for joining us on this

journey into the stars into the abyss back out into the stars whatever matter will just flow away indeed indeed i have been one of your hosts eliana and i existentially have been another one of your hosts, Chloe. Rip. We should have gotten married and raised her together, Chloe. Oh my god, goodbye!