Girls Gone Canon Cast - His Dark Materials: Episode 3 - Northern Lights/The Golden Compass Chapters 7-9

Episode Date: September 17, 2019

In the Fens, the gyptians convene for a roping about the missing children and a not-so-missing little girl. As they get ready to make moves towards the North, Lyra begins learning to read the signs.  Covers Northern Lights (UK & Australia) / The Golden Compass (US) Chapters 7 - 9   7. John Faa 8. Frustration 9. The Spies   Links mentioned in this episode:  https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-41670890 https://daemonomicon.tumblr.com/post/147915686956/pantalaimon-derived-from-the-greek-elements-%CF%80%CE%B1%CE%BD https://bridgetothestars.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=200081  --- Eliana's twitter: https://twitter.com/arhythmetric Eliana's reddit account: https://www.reddit.com/user/glass_table_girl Eliana's blog: https://themanyfacedblog.wordpress.com/ Chloe's twitter: https://twitter.com/liesandarbor Chloe's blog: www.liesandarborgold.com

You're listening to Girls Gone Canon covering His Dark Materials. Hello and welcome to Girls Gone Canon, His Dark Materials, Episode 3, Northern Lights, The Golden Compass, Chapters 7 through 9. I am one of your hosts, Chloe. You might know me from the internet as Liza Narber. And I am Eliana, another one of your hosts. You might know me as Glass Table Girl or as Arithmetic, depending on the medium. Hello, this is the end of part one of the first book. Wow. The end of the beginning of the beginning. Literally, actually. We're ending Oxford finally. This is going to end, spoiler spoiler alert if you're listening to this hopefully you're reading chapter seven eight and nine if you haven't read those you're gonna get some spoilers ahead but at the very end of these chapters we are leaving jordan we're leaving oxford we are uh

going north yeah so just a heads up the the chapters are chapter 7, Jon Fah, chapter 8, Frustration, and chapter 9, The Spies. We are so glad to be doing this. We started out, of course, talking about A Song of Ice and Fire, but we always wanted to branch out to other things, doing literary analysis of books, and so here we are. Yes, and I'm excited still reading this for the first time technically at the time of recording unfortunately it is not i have surpassed the podcast i am actually 143 pages from the very end of the amber spyglass and eliana is very frustrated with me your your reading demon is almost fixed you know yeah but now it's like it's getting really good

getting to the end but i'm like i have to come to work here on the podcast and uh do the old northern lights not the amber spyglass so that's what our discussion at the end is for of course for those of you that have read the books if you finish the first book and then of course there's a deeper dustier discussion that is uh starting eliana has named it the dustier gushen that we will uh start doing too because eliana will want to wax poetic about the subtle knife and eventually the amber spyglass in these discussions as well so we'll let you know when you can tune out well the dustier cushion is only for you i'm gonna be real that's gonna disappear once you finish

reading all the books once we're once we're aligned on it i'm working no i'm serious that's really the only reason i do it um i have started cracking into la belle sauvage though and i kind of forgot that the whole reason i bought these books again two years ago is because the book of, which is a new trilogy based very much in the same world as His Dark Materials, began release in October 2017. And so the first book of that is called La Belle Sauvage. It's a prequel trilogy, or that's a prequel book. I have to look into what the second one is about again, and that's coming out this fall, probably around the same time as the show.

So lots to talk about. Yeah, we've got lots of ground to cover with His Dark Materials. So after we finish the main books, I'm sure we're going to have a field day. There's going to be a lot to do. And the show is also going to be premiering. We're definitely going to be doing some reviewing of the show on the podcast look forward to those episodes the show is premiering november 4th you got it u.s i'm so impressed yeah i'm so proud of you yeah thank you i i had a feeling it was going to be november after i saw some of the comments floating around and november 3rd is premiering

on bbc one so for everyone out out across the, you guys get it before we do here in the States. But we'll have it on the 4th and we will definitely get some episodes for you guys talking about that. And I'm excited about that. I've been following a lot of just the production and the casting. The casting is great so far.

Lots of really cool spins on things that I wasn't expecting. And Pullman said about it that he's seen all the scripts and approved them. And he's seen the leading actors. He said, good, you're doing fine, carry on. So no, he's not obviously directly involved. But he's read enough of it and said, yeah, you guys are good. He trusts these people, it's in their hands. So I'm excited about it. I think it's gonna be eight episodes, about 50 minute runtime. I think they got a lot of book they can fit in there.

Yeah. And I mean, like, it is a little sad right because he's like you're doing fine because they're sticking to his vision and thankfully this is a completed story in many ways and so he's like yeah how how hard can it be to completely fuck it up because it sounds like right we talked about the movie that came out in the 2000s that that director had a vision that was closer to Pullman's, but alas, the studios were all like, no. Yeah, Chris Weitz actually had some really cool stuff, and they did cut it. He had the original vision, but I do feel good about this. The only interesting thing for me,

which I don't think that it's a problem, but they did take it from TV Mature to TV 14. I was surprised at that. I don't feel negatively, I don't think, but I was just like, huh, interesting. There's nothing that I think shouldn't be, and I actually was going to ask that just now because I think part of the strength of the His Dark Materials story

is that so many of us came to it around that time of our lives. Yeah, adolescence, and that's what the characters are going through. And I'm like, hopefully it isn't inaccessible to younger audiences like too dark or even the fact that it's behind the hbo paywall i would say maybe once they get to amber spyglass they might reconsider on some things i wouldn't say it's like super mature but there are definitely more mature themes a little darker content so they might reconsider but i don't think it's a problem i think it actually makes it more accessible like you're saying for people to watch i don't think yeah i don't think it's bad to have some of those darker themes and to start introducing those to

teenagers to adolescents etc because i mean well at dragon con at the his dark materials panel that we all did uh that somebody kind of said from crowd, I wouldn't let my kids read this. And it did bring up a really interesting kind of discussion and debate. And I mean, obviously, a certain age, I wouldn't let like a four-year-old, five-year-old, six-year-old open this puppy up and try to read it. But even eight or nine, I mean, the big thing is they're not going to understand some of the darkness to it. It's not purposefully anti-religious. It's more anti-establishment and anti-religious establishment. Pullman himself has actually said that.

And yeah, of course, his atheism does kind of leak through. But I mean, it's not something that a kid would pick up as much. I don't think as a kid you'd read this and you'd go, oh, kill God. You would more read this through and be like, oh, Lyra and Will doing these things. And I think as you got older, it might be a better understanding to gain. But really, no, I think it should be accessible. And I think every kid should have the opportunity when they're at that age of understanding and comprehending the book to read it. I think there are some of the atheist stuff, like, and I didn't really understand what was happening precisely,

that it was an explicit part of the books. When I was reading it at like 12 slash 13, I was, I don't know, it was the summer, I was at that cusp. And I did actually catch some of it, especially in the Amber Spyglass, because it's so much more explicit there. And I came from a very strongly Christian and evangelical household. And I was like, is God going to be mad at me for reading this? I literally thought that. And then I was like, ah, but I need to know what happens. So I'm a sinner.

Forgive me, God. I'm sorry, God. Eliana's a sinner. Yeah. God. But anyway. Well, we'll talk a little more about some of these themes, Eliana's a sinner but anyway well we'll talk a little more about some of these themes especially as we get through this episode

there's lots happening between these three chapters and like I said we go to part two, Bullvanger after this which I'm excited for there's a lot of exciting stuff happening there I love this story, I'm really excited about excited about it. So glad. So, of course, we're going to start off with some of those emails and tweets of note that we got. We were super excited, super excited to get this email from our friend. She signed off as your friend, so she's our friend. Our friend, Tana Ford from Westeros Weneverly. And, of course, also of her like of her like own yeah of her own fame she does she's an incredible artist I'm so excited that we got this email um Elliot is fine I'm fine Tana Ford come on our podcast challenge I mean yeah so Tana Ford tells us about meeting Philip Pullman in college I met Philip Pullman once when I was in college.

He was on a book tour promoting the third book of the Dark Materials series. This might have been the first author talk event I had ever gone to. For me, it's a toss-up between him, that night in Somerville, or M.T. Anderson, who had been discussing Feed. Oh man, Feed's a wild book too. We should talk about that at some time. Discussing Feed around the same time. feed oh man feeds feeds a wild book too we should talk about that at some time discussing feed around the same time in any event i was second to last in a very long line of people waiting for autographs and as i slid my ratty dog-eared paperback copy of the book across to philip

pullman i also showed him an illustration i made of that scene near the end of the book redacted sorry everyone this is not the discussion section yet. Tana says that I was just some dumb, scared student who had never met an author before, and Philip Pullman, bless him, pulled my sketchbook in close, examined the details of my drawing, and talked to me for long minutes about how much he loved what I had done.

He gave me his publicist card! He told me I had a bright future. True. It's a really sweet memory for me, and I keep the drawing. Now close to 19 years old, since the Emperor Spyglass came out in 2000. Ramed in my house with the inscription Philip wrote to me that night. I've included quick snaps of it here. Anyways, ladies, thrilled you were doing this series, and I'm looking forward to more.

And can't wait to hear what creatures your demons become in your adult life. Always a fun game to play. Most days, I think mine is a moody, irascible bird prone to ruffling up feathers and squawking or else ignoring things until some unknowable moment when it decides to get involved. What kind of bird? Please draw us this bird, Tana.

Yeah, draw us birds. Wow, thank you so much. And you didn't close it out eliana tana then said your friend i already told everyone at the beginning it was the most important i just want to make sure you reminded them this is like the the subtle foreshadowing eliana's happy i'm pleased um yeah i do i i think we'll probably save our demons for the very end right like i mean when we finish it when we our demon won't choose a form until we're done reading the books right i guess i mean i don't even know what am i who am i even i don't even know if i know enough animals i know enough animals you know so many Eliana. You can name like 10 right now. Horse. Zorse.

Person named horse. Oh my god. Anyway. So. I think that's interesting. We're going to have to come back to Feed at some point. Feed is another young adult novel. Which still kind of haunts me.

I think if you like Black Mirror or anyone. You might like Feed. Actually I haven't watched Black Mirror or anyone, you might like Feed. Actually, I haven't watched Black Mirror, so I don't really know. I'm just pulling shit out of my ass. Seems really depressing. I haven't read Feed, but I've watched Black Mirror, so we almost complete each other. Yeah, there we go. Between the two of us, we know.

We can say this with authority. Oh my god, the authority. Oh. We did get another email that i i thought was a good one this is a this is just a a navel gazer if you will just something to mull over this is from our friend sedona chin who emailed us this is a his dark materials question what if your demon is huge like a bear or a rhino i know at some point they mentioned someone whose demon is a dolphin and the guy can never go back on land. Also, that you shouldn't touch someone else's demon. But say your demon's a polar bear and it's rush hour and you take the subway home.

How does someone not touch your demon? How did I not see this? This literally just happened two minutes ago. Oh, man. Can the bear fit on the train when you travel do you have to buy an extra ticket for your demon or do you just ride your bear home can you have a polar bear demon if there are intelligent polar bears answers to animal questions are important to me so don't a chin so don't know we respect that the answers to these questions are important

we totally we understand and respect it and we're bewildered i'm so glad that we got this yeah this is a very logical question to ask i mean what what happens what if your demon is huge what if when i choose my demon or i tell everyone what my demon is at the end of the amber spyglass like what if it is something huge what if that's what i come up with i mean that's. What if you have a fucking whale? A blue whale? Or a humpback whale? Whatever. The biggest whale.

Free willy! Oh, those are serious. Those are serious animals. That tells me a lot about you if you're a killer whale. Yeah, that's true. And it's sad, too. You know, you have, like, a sad, dark past if you're a killer whale. That's true i mean certain cultures thought that they were also wolves that they were wolves on land and killer whales in the water so i mean anyway so

i don't i imagine you'd be alienated if you had a huge demon and you wouldn't be able to use those things yeah i mean like on one hand that's just who you are and maybe what that means is like you just can't be the kind of person right who is in rush hour maybe you're more like i don't know ron swanson right and you're you don't interact with people you're out in the wilderness and that's because your demon's a manifestation of like your nature yeah and you are maybe are the kind of person that those kinds of environments don't work for, so you just avoid them, right? It reminds me of, like, Daenerys' dragons, and you can't put them in, like, a cage from Game of Thrones, you know, because they wouldn't grow anymore. Like that Lindsay Lohan song, I Won't Be Caged.

It's a lifestyle change, too. I mean, I think some people get their demons and probably have lifestyle changes. I don't know if that's true yet. I haven't, like, seen that happen, but I imagine that's true. I mean, that's your soul. If your soul wants that, then that's what your soul is, right? And I guess there's a part of it of, like, hopefully your soul ideally doesn't do anything that's hurtful to you.

So there are some – a lot of the animals are of normal-ish size, right? And by normal-ish, I mean compact enough to travel with someone so i i think that there there's always that sort of self-selecting aspect to it i don't know but like what if you are a rhino was also into being at sea i think that was like he was a sailor so but yeah it is rough though because if you don't have the power, like Mrs. Coulter has, to separate herself from her demon, you can't really do much. Yeah, you'd be screwed. So that could be bad. She can do it a little further than some, but not necessarily.

That's what I mean. Like, she can be a part more than what other people can not. Yeah. I mean. Or Kaiza. I mean, there's definitely, I think, a way that you can try and make it work. Maybe you just also, what? I think there's a point here to and make it work maybe you just also what I think there's a point here to

do you ride your bear home yeah I think you ride your bear home and they didn't really have like yeah you ride your bear home you could ride your rhino home in Donkey Kong you could ride the rhino in Donkey Kong Country so why not if a gorilla can do it

the rhino can definitely carry a person, in my opinion, maybe. Did you all know that rhinos poop in a specific area? They go back to a place and they poop there. They know it as their bathroom. Wow, I had no clue. Yeah. So that's animal facts for today. No horse facts.

Rhino poop facts, though. Thank you, Sedona. That's good. Good. Yeah. I'm glad we got that. It's a lot to think about. Other things to think about, our good friend John Reeves, aka Knight, like a, you know,

fighting knight, underscore 2359 on Twitter, chimed in with the correction that will is actually technically from winchester which thank you for that john if i recall correctly was one of those who was pretty excited about us announcing to do his dark materials so it's always fun to hear his reactions and insights to these episodes as someone who has read these before and he's across the pond as well he's gonna get everything before us on November 3rd.

Good for you, John. You're going to sit there and be like, bitches, I'm watching it first. He's living in the future. Yeah. I was watching this interview the other day from Pullman with the BBC in 2017, and he talks about how he thinks that tone

is more important than structure when he writes, because as long as the tone is there you can always go back and change the structure do your set your tone first and fix the rest later you know get the story out and then worry about the logistics and semantics afterwards and i thought that was interesting uh because there's definitely consistent tone throughout the books you know you you know how to feel in each scene for the most part yeah yeah you can feel everything very well i think you're right he does a good job of that so huh i'll have to check out this interview and it'll be in the notes yes it will i linked it wow

so we start chapter seven john fa lyra is kept busy by ma cost on the Egyptian boat doing chores and working hard it feels normal after a few days like she's back into a normal lifestyle but she doesn't really notice that the Costas are kind of on red alert around her and fretting after her yeah of course she is I mean Ma Costa is our Hufflepuff mother she takes such good she's our Molly Weasley she she is even though I guess Molly Weasley was what a G a Gryffindor? But whatever. Makas is a Hufflepuff. No one can change my mind. Lyra's wanted by the Oblation Board and Mrs. Coulter, of course, and Tony overhears it

from pub gossip that the police are waiting everyone in the area looking for her, which is kind of strange because they're not lifting a finger for any of the other missing children. Yeah, and the Gyptians are obviously interested in Lyra for other reasons, but we'll talk about that later when that info is revealed. They have to keep her below deck when they pass through an open world. Yeah, when the slave passed through an area where the police were actually searching all the boats in the waterway, and they were able to hide Lyra in a secret compartment lined with cedarwood below macasta's bed for two hours and the police don't find her because turns out cedarwood causes demons

to be sleepy so the police's demons don't notice her yeah and apparently this is true in real life cedarwood has sedative properties in aromatherapy and it decreases heart rate i did not know that yeah just that was new just like we didn't know about polar bear livers not being real we could survive in the north yeah don't need polar bear livers but it's interesting because there was a part of me when i was reading this before that like wondered if cedar was among the scents that mrs culture used to control the demons around her but you know as discussed last time, she's probably actually only just terrifying. Could be both. Could be both.

Could be. They take a detour. It takes them a while, but they end up near the fens. Fens are open-skied marshland in eastern Anglia that mingles on one side with Holland and the further side with the shallow sea. Most of the fens are speaking Dutch,

but most of fens is packed with water birds and eels and way lurkers tempting people to their death. The Egyptians kind of can muster through safely. This is like their A Song of Ice and Fire Greywater Watch. Also noteworthy, Shakespeare used this term fensucked

to describe the fog rising from marshes in King Lear when Lear says, Hmm. It's not a word that's used often, but I like this, fens. Yeah, it's an interesting word. And it's interesting because we'll see it in a bit, but he does incorporate a lot of that Dutch influence into the story. Yeah, yeah.

A lot of the Egyptians have very Dutch names. The fens and the place where the Egyptians are meeting, it's built out with a bunch of wharves and jetties and markets all around a wooden meeting hall. And the Egyptians have kept the peace for the most part. The landlopers ignore their smuggling and the feuds that come along with them. And Lyra listens to the stories from all the people

before she even gets there. And Lyra listens to the stories from all the people before she even gets there. And by the time she gets there, she is speaking with Egyptian quote, quote accent and all. I love that Ma sits her down and she's like, this is cute and all, but you can't just like take our language.

There's more to us. Like we've lost, we've suffered. Our people have been like, you know, perjured for ages. This is the, you can't just, you know, talk like us. That's not how it works.

Yeah. We're water people. All through and you ain't. You're a fire person. What you're most like is marsh fire. That's the place you have in the Gyptian scheme. You got witch oil in your soul. Deceptive.

That's what you are, child. Lyra's super offended about this but ma costa was actually trying to compliment her it's interesting at the dc panel the dragon con panel for his dark materials we talked a lot about how her deceptive nature is what she survives on but it turns out it's also what kind of does her in in many circumstances and her obviously lying isn't good right it's a sin so to speak so uh lyra really clings to it yeah and there's understandable reasons why she clings to it it's not necessarily good but it's not necessarily bad as we see throughout the stories it's just yeah survival yeah a tool and how she uses it they reach the landing around evening and the

island is very alive it smells of fish fry and smoke leaf and jennifer it they reach the landing around evening and the island is very alive it smells of fish fry and smoke leaf and jenever spirit it fills the air from the boats that have all gathered i like that pullman tells us this land has that major dutch influence and that includes jenever jenever is known to have a couple different spellings with a g with a j different e's different v's different n's you name it and it's actually where gin originated from it started yeah it's so surprising different now they're obviously very different drinks now but it started as a medicine for intestinal problems which go figure became used for getting drunk go figure again and the height of its popularity in historical documents all

claimed that it cured the plague which you know that's probably not true but there are records of it being distilled as early as the 16th century in dutch distilleries and during the glorious revolution in 1688 william of orange brought jennifer to britain it had already come to britain through countrymen and soldiers by the dutch in the late 16th century it was kind of a means to make them fearless during battle because while the war going on and a few shots before and after if you were lucky enough to survive made the term dutch courage come about william majored attacks heavily the alcohol from catholic countries whether which made it impossible to bring them in the country but taxes were not

imposed on production and sale of jenever so as the british couldn't pronounce the whole word it was eventually shortened to gen which ended up morphing into gin so nowadays they're very different because different ingredients juniper berries are in gin and uh it different production as well but that's where it started that's so interesting is that i thought so too is that part of why there's a tradition of mixing it together with tonic water? I think so. Interesting. They tie off at an area the Costas had used for generations

and Ma Costa cooks up eels who's going to make some potato pearls while the men go get handsome to go greet their friends and grab a drink. They also go out to get the scoop of what's happening and return saying that a roping is happening and that the missing child is on egyptian boat that will appear at the roping

then tony costa ruffles lyra's hair because they're like talking about adult things in front of her and she just she still doesn't really get it she's like word fun cool interesting a missing child you guys found one wow it's you girl missing children so yeah because she just knows she's like excited and she eats and she's getting ready to make her way up the slope with everyone else yeah and she doesn't look as gyptian as she thinks she looks because as they're making their way everyone's staring at her and pointing and suddenly she gets nervous and pan turns into a panther to reassure her a panther and she stays close to ma costa who's walking very slowly like incredibly slowly with tony and karen proudly walking by her sides

like gyptian princes themselves the benches are really crowded people keep squeezing in to make space and children and demons and families alike the costa group stands in the back at the edge of the hall and eight men arrive. These are obviously like the main eight elder dudes you gotta pay attention to, so keep with it. Everyone's excited, and silence falls. The men sit down, except for one. Tall, bull-necked, powerful, wearing a typical outfit most of the Egyptians wear,

a canvas jacket, a checked shirt, but he's marked by his air of power this man's demon was a crow very like the master's raven that's john fa the lord of the western gyptians tony whispered john fa began to speak in a deep slow voice he speaks first about the disappearance of children between the both the landlopers and the Egyptians, and then he speaks directly of Lyra. Now there's been talk about a child and a reward. Here's the truth to stop all gossip. The child's name is Lyra Beliqua, and she's being sought by the landloper police. There's a reward of 1,000 sovereigns for giving her up to them.

She's a landloper child, and she's in our care, and there she is going to stay. Anyone tempted by those thousand sovereigns had better find a place neither on land nor on water. We ain't giving her up. So what I read in this scene, especially as Lyra comes in and realizes, oh, I don't, I guess, look as Egyptian as I thought, it comes back to what Marcos was telling Lyra.

Like, you can spend time with them, maybe eventually pass in terms of accent as an Egyptian child, especially if she spends more time with them and gets to know their culture, but in many ways it isn't exactly the same, right? Lyra can love the Egyptians and respect them. She can't

really just appropriate their culture on that surface, like having spent, what, a few weeks with them? Because at the end of the day, like you were saying, Chloe, the Egyptians have more to them in terms of what they've suffered and the prejudices they face and all these experiences they have and that includes a lot of these other societies looking down on them and the toll of like so many of their children have gone missing as we've talked about and no one does anything about it but lyra has a lot of this privilege to an extent because yeah she's being chased right now which is bad based on her goals and many of the egyptians are being

noble-hearted in their desire to protect her but again like when those egyptian children go missing no one looks for them but when lyra goes missing a kingdom-wide search is called and of course like yeah this testifies then to the convictions of john fa that he doesn't have a shifting morality right child or not lyra's safety isn't up for compromise no child safety should be compromised and that's definitely i think a value that's going to play a role as other characters in the books take other actions but lyra like you get to be special and taken care of and these other kids don't these other kids well we'll find out where they are very soon and lyra you know but that is the other thing she is the symbol of this rebellion

you know this is oppression that they are facing and they are being persecuted their children are being taken and they need some sort of semblance of hope and that's who lyra is here she is going to be their hope as we see through these kind of council meetings he tells them the gobblers are taking children north that they've corrupted the landloper police and he wants to send a band of fighters to stop this madness north a man named ray Raymond Von Gearet raises his hand, asking if they should really be saving the Landloper children, as well as their own. Raymond, are you saying we should fight our way through every kind of danger to a little group of frightened children,

and then say to some of them that they can come, and to the rest that they have to stay? No, you're a better man than that well do i have your approval my friends jon fa is a gryffindor oh yeah absolutely he is uh definitely a gryffindor he's kind of a badass though i do like him a lot in these i like that his moral compass is so this is what we're doing it's interesting you didn You didn't talk about his demon. And it's like into the masters. Oh, yeah. There's something going on with birds. Yeah, that is similar.

Yeah. I mean, I didn't go into the raven this time. But also, I think that connection with the master is interesting for that raven. That it's someone that Lyra should trust. And we're about to get a reveal from Jon Fau that kind of tells us a little bit of the master's intentions and what we should feel because Lyra left that situation feeling very conflicted, right? And we get the reveal that kind of tells our emotions like this is how you should feel

about it very soon. So we'll talk about that soon. But until then, the crowd, like us on this conversation, is hesitating for a moment. There's a full roar it fills the room and everyone is excitedly speaking and shaking their fists and birds are flying from the rafters john lets them party rock and then raises his hands to speak he discusses his want for the family heads at the table to we're going to raise a tax and muster a levy to support this expedition because like you know the entire community's been involved

right they've all been affected so he plans to speak with lyra and the farter quorum who's one of the six men on the platform he walks with a stick and had been sitting quietly trembling behind john tony takes lyra to meet them and pan changes into a sparrow on her shoulder lyra is super nervous she's blushing pan changes into a wild cat as tony lifts them onto the platform and i do love that cats have so many meanings to animal corner it for a second to derail there's patience waiting for the right moment to act independence enjoying social connections all the same spirit of adventure and courage deep relaxed connection with the self healing from the inside out and curiosity exploration of the unknown or the unconscious.

And anytime there's a cat, which we're about to meet another one in a moment, I feel like these are different things and facets to look at regarding situations. Lyra steps towards Lord Fah nervously, and Lord Fah stoops to shake her hand, his Stonia expression warming, and he invites Lyra to the parley room, asks her how are you being treated. Farger Coram is still with them, but the rest of the men have become scarce. Fah has Lyra sit on his right,

across from Farger Coram, whose skull-like face and trembling scares her a little. But Coram's demon is a large, autumn-colored cat who then touches noses with pans softly at one point. Poop the snoot? Yes, and then snoozes in Farger Coram's lap. cat who then touches noses with pans softly at one point. Poop the snoot. Yes, and then snoozes in Fardercorm's lap. And I think here this cat, whose name is Sophonax,

is kind of that deep, relaxed connection with self. It's very obvious that Farder has a very deep connection with his demon. I mean, they've been together probably for a while since he's ancient. Yeah, and I mean, he's pretty sure of himself, right? And Sophonax, I think that tells us a little bit more about Fargacorm as well. There's this fun Tumblr that's called the Demonomicon, and they had

the post about some of the names of the demons and Greek elements within them. So Sophonax from Greek elements,, meaning wisdom, of course, and Anax, meaning lord or master. It could also be possibly influenced by the spelling of the Greek Sophron, meaning self-controlled and sensible.

All of these things I think we'll see are very much at play with Fardekorum's character. Yeah, absolutely. A woman brings a tray of glasses, curtsying and leaving, and Jon Favre pours himself and Farder a glass of Jennifer and a wine for Lyra. He asks why Lyra is on the run and who she's on the run from, and she fesses up. She tells him about Mrs. Coulter and the Oblation Board and how they didn't know Lyra was friends with the kids who were being taken,

although the Oblation Board expected her to help acquire children. These all kind of line up with the things that Farder and Jon have already kind of spoken about. She then tells them about Asriel going north and how she doesn't think he's involved with the Gobblers directly, and tells him of hiding in the closet and Stanislaus Grunman and the armor-bearers that guard him. The old men smile at her ferocity, and they ask to hear more of what she learned when she hid in the closet. She looked fierce and stubborn as she sat there, small against the high-carved back of the chair. The two old men couldn't help smiling, but whereas Farder Coram's smile was hesitant, rich, complicated expression that trembled across his face like sunlight chasing shadows on a windy March day,

Jon Favreau's smile was slow, warm, plain, and kindly. So, I just really like the way that this scene is written as Chloe's talking about regarding tone. And the way Pullman talks about it because there's a couple things I want to talk about in here. First of all despite a lot of this book taking place in Oxford and Pullman apparently having lived there, but he doesn't seem

to use the Oxford comma in this sentence so I think that's interesting Second, I mean I just love the way again that this is written, like there's this great simile that evokes the feeling of farter quorum's smile rather than actually depicting it because it's about how his smile makes lyra feel right it's that richness behind it because the text calls his smile rich and then uses all this complex language and imagery to describe it as like

sunlight chasing shadows on a windy march day whereas because john fa is a much more simple man right his smile is described very straightforward in plain language that's him that's who he is he's not interested in like fancy words he's interested in ideas and action and values lyra then tells them everything slowly and honestly she's a little afraid still of john fa but she's more afraid of his kindness. Especially because of what happened with Coulter, right? The mistrust she has of people has to deepen. Where Farder Coram and Jon Favre reveal what she didn't know,

that's when that kind of dissolves. Yeah, that element of trust. Farder Coram speaks for the first time and Lyra thinks that it's musical and multi-toned like his demon's fur and he asks her about dust and its connection to children

I really like Farder Coram we're gonna hear a lot about his backstory and believe it or not we were watching those books those ring books with the lords the rings? if you've heard of them the lords and the rings we were watching those movies about the books or the books about the movies i don't know and the horror movie right yeah yes and uh farter quorum has some like interesting

little not not a complete parallel but almost there's some aragorn and arwen stuff going on for him and it's interesting it's like if arwen didn't choose mortality but got knocked up by aragon anyway like that's that's quorum's backstory so i'm excited to get into him a little bit she uh lyra tells him about the aurora which she means aurora which is adorable and farter quorum corrects her very kindly he's like oh you mean the aurora child but she literally calls it the aurora she doesn't stop calls it the roarerah she doesn't stop she just keeps calling it that i mean bless our ravenclaw father farter quorum who actually his name is in fact turns out his whole name is like quorum van texel and farter i guess is a title

maybe or something like that it's an obsolete variant of the word father luke i am your farter i get it. Like Darth Vader, except Farter Vader. Farter Farter. Farther Farter Farter Farter. Yeah, it's interesting. And in the lights of the roarer, there was like a city. All towers and churches and domes and that. It was a bit like Oxford. That's what I thought anyway.

And Uncle Asriel, he was more interested in that I think, but the master and the other scholars were more interested in dust, like Mrs. Coulter and Lord Boreal in them. Tell me more. Very interesting. Keep talking, small child. I love that Pullman writes Lyra so well because authors like George R.R. Martin have commented that it can be difficult in emulating this innocence. And William Blake's Songs of Innocence and Experience is one of Philip Pullman's big inspirations that he's noted about writing this series.

And Songs of Innocence and Experience is super interesting because it's actually two books innocence released in 1789 it was individually published four times before it was combined with songs of experience for 12 editions which created joint songs of innocence and of experience that came out in 1794 and a lot of the songs have two versions or like contrasting songs in the book. And one, of course, highlighting the innocence, one the experience. And it's super meta with that approach to the next book that we can talk about later in our discussion today. I'm very excited about this. Pullman embraces that concept of how existence entirely depends on childhood innocence.

And that experience will mark loss of childhood by fear, inhibitions, and social and political corruption. And a lot of that comes through in William Blake's work. The oppression through systemic rulers. He's able to write that C.S. Lewis fantasy without being too excessive, but flip into political intrigues and a touch of dystopia or realism, depending on how you want to look at it. And if you remember last

episode, we talked about those China sculptures and Mrs. Coulter's flat, the harlequin and the shepherdess. And we talked about the ties it could have to the shepherdess and the chimney sweep. And lo and behold, in Songs of Innocence by William Blake, there are two poems called The Shepherd and the Chimney Sweeper in Songs of Innocence and Experience. So Chimney Sweeper is in innocence and Blake criticizes in this the view that hard work and suffering would give the next life with God because it results in accepting exploitation. And one of the passages that you get is, And so Tom awoke and we rose in the dark and got with our bags and our brushes to work. awoke and we rose in the dark and got with our bags and our brushes to work though the morning was cold tom was happy and warm so if all do their duty they need not fear harm in the experience version of the chimney sweeper the version explores child labor in a corrupt society much deeper

and how corrupt society is shaping the world and because I am happy and dance and sing, they think they have done me no injury and are gone to praise God and his priest and king who make up a heaven of our misery. To compare the shepherd, which is only on songs of innocence. How sweet is the shepherd's sweet lot from the morn to the evening he strays. He shall follow his sheep all the day and his tongue shall be filled with praise for he hears the lamb's innocent call and he hears the ewes tender reply he is watchful while they are in peace for they know when their shepherd is nigh interesting yeah yeah i guess you're gonna dig into it later later yeah okay uh there's a lot to think about there is a lot to think about

i was waiting for you to tell me what to think about. Definitely check out Songs of Innocence and Experience from William Blake because there is a lot that's directly lifted from there that he's kind of used in his work, Pullman, to influence the story. And it does talk about this exploitation of children, which is exactly tying into what we're talking about right now. What Jon Fah is gathering an army, a small militia for to go save these children that have been exploited by the system. For they know when their shepherd is nigh, when the shepherd is watching them.

Yeah. Yeah. That's everything moves from innocence to experience. But we'll talk about that in a bit. moves from innocence to experience but talked about that in a bit john reveals that farter quorum is a seer and has actually been watching all the gobbler goings but has also been mostly watching lyra just like the costas and many other families that have been spying on her for him for ages and quorum's connection with seeing i think is actually a part of what makes him such a good guide for lyra as she learns more about the alethiometer and different kinds of seeing and meaning.

Part of Corp's so wise. Yeah. It's definitely her opening to understanding that, like, this isn't just weird pictures. Yeah. But she doesn't understand what's being talked about right now as to why people are spying her. And she has no clue and feels frightened and squeezes pan until she can't take it anymore lyra couldn't hold it in we didn't damage it honest it was only a bit of mud and we never got very far what are you talking about child said john fa

fart or quorum laughed when he did that his shaking stopped and his face became bright and young but lyra wasn't laughing. With trembling lips, she said. And even if we had found the bung, we'd never have took it out. It was just a joke. We wouldn't have sunk it. Never. Then Jon Favre began to laugh too. He slapped a broad

hand on the table so hard. The glasses rang and his massive shoulders shook and he had to wipe away the tears from his eyes. Lyra had never seen such a sight, never heard such a bellow. It was like a mountain laughing. Oh yes, he said when he could speak again. We heard about that too, little girl. I don't suppose the Kostas have slept foot anywhere since then without being reminded of it.

You better leave a guard on your boat, Tony, people say. Fierce little girls around here. Oh, that story went allierce little girls around here. Oh, that story went all over the Fens, child. But we ain't gonna punish you for it. No! No! Ease your mind. The bug. The bug.

It's the gift that keeps on giving, Chloe. The bug. The bung that keeps on giving. There is a bung that will never go out. I firmly believe in this bung. This is high key one of my favorite scenes in the whole series i like how the moment she starts like freaking out i love that firecorp knows what it is and he's already losing it and then john fall eventually starts losing it he's like oh my god it's the bung he does return to sirius he says that they knew about her from when she was a baby

and he asks if the people of jordan told her who her parents were she tells him she knows lord asriel put her there because her parents died in an airship accident but he tells her he has to tell her the truth lord asriel is her real father gasp that's a reveal it is a reveal he was high-spirited passionate quick to anger and went exploring all over the north coming back with a great fortune her mother was a passionate clever lesser born than azrael and even a scholar but already married to a politician one of the king's closest advisors when lyra was born she favored azriel and not the king's advisor so she hid lyra away and put out that she died oh drama this person that was asriel's lover i know so we don't know so salacious yeah i wish we knew who this person was so lyra was then taken to

oxford shire and put in the care of a Gyptian woman who nursed her, but the king's advisor found out and ransacked the cottage, following the Gyptian woman who fleed to kill her. Asriel comes back from hunting to find the man at the foot of the staircase in his home, where the Gyptian had fled to, hiding with Lyra in the closet, and Asriel challenges the man, killing him. It became a huge lawsuit, defending his child and home from an intruder but the law also allows a man to avenge a violation of his wife so the case lasted for weeks in the end the judges ended up punishing asriel and took away his lands and left him poor everything he had built up

her mother wanted nothing to do with lyra so or the situation so she turned her back on it all the nurse worried about lyra's mother treating her and seeing her because she was proud and scornful he then reveals lyra was almost brought up to be egyptian with the woman because the nurse begged to keep her but the court wanted to put her in a priory the sisters of obedience at watlington would have loved to see that asriel hated that and jordan it was the one rule asriel ever had was that Lyra's mother could never see her or contact her, and the master abided by this as long as he could, and then dust became the hot topic after that.

It didn't matter to the Egyptians until their kids were stolen, and they'd been watching over Lyra already forever, mostly because the Egyptian nurse was worried for the young girl. Yeah, and Lyra learns that there had been actually an Egyptian keeping watch over her at the school, and it was the pastry cook, Bernie, whom she had shouted about Roger being taken at. There's a quick aside here, right, where I think Lyra notes that Bernie is one of the few people whose demon is the same sex as he is.

And I think people have read that a couple of different ways, but turns out Philip Holman doesn't really even know what that means. He's like, I don't know. Just figured that that should be a thing too. So I think I have some fun headcanons of like what that's about. But anyways,

John Faw says that he learned about her leaving Jordan when Lord Asriel was imprisoned and, you know, they couldn't prevent it. And then they remembered the man her mother had married, who Lord Asriel had killed, was actually named Edward Coulter. What? No. What? No way.

Wait, are you telling me Mrs. Coulter is her mom? Her mom? Yes. Who knew this? Wow. I sure didn't. Wow. I'm so glad this is over and now we can talk about it openly, you guys. This has been a very long, like, seven chapters to not talk about knowing this.

It actually has. Yeah. Everything's felt really long for me so i love this hero backstory being explained because this is lyra's birth story that she doesn't know about right and maria nicolaeva wrote about mythical influences in the rhetoric of character in children's literature it's a book from 2002 and she talks about how the male mythical heroes bono myth paradigm fits that it starts off you have a hero there's separation initiation return or home away and then homecoming and it all starts off at rite of passage which is like when your mom gives you your pokey decks and you go out of the home onto your path you know

it leads to the first threshold the first light challenge and then there's several trials there's an outer quest and also alongside this is an inner quest usually for identity finally we see the hero assert their power and return home and if the hero is still a child at this point of returning home then the promise of further adventure comes to take them across to a magical world this is lyra's inner challenge and what will be part of her this book and especially the next when that ball drops we'll get there there's another punch that's going to come in the next book uh but this is her inner challenge right her parents this is her identity yeah and i think what's also really interesting about it, along with that way that it's revealed, as you're saying, in this context,

is it kind of plays on this thing that's called the family romance from Sigmund Freud, which is essentially this childhood fantasy that he asserts that people feel, right? Where they long to get away from their own parents, who they feel are like imposters who have stolen them or are from a lower standing. And they fantasize that their true parents are of a nobler, higher standing, right? And often royalty. And this understanding has to do with something

kind of like childishness, maybe, in growing up. You know, maybe where once they saw and idealized the father as like the bestest and strongest of men, and their mother was the loveliest and bestest of women. And then the disillusionment that comes with it. And Lyra actually gets this family romance fulfilled. But it all gets turned on its head, because now she knows who Mrs. Coulter is. I mean, earlier she had wished, I wish Mrs. Coulter could be my mom.

And in time time some of that dissolution is going to come with like lord asriel as well they each were that ideal to her and they kind of do things that shatter it themselves and it's very much a dramatized heightened version of what happens during puberty sure like as children grow and learn to find themselves and begin to understand their parents as humans yeah and they're no longer the uh the mom and dad superhero characters you know so a farter quorum doesn't know why the master let her go with mrs coulter but obviously asriel was unable to stop it while he was jailed and lyra begins to finally understand the master was trying to protect her all along she tells them about the

poison and the retiring room and how she saved asriel's life and about how the master had told her to keep secrets for Mrs. Coulter. She then shows them the alethiometer, telling them she was told to work it out on her own. Farter says that it's a Greek word meaning truth measure. He shows them the symbols and tells them there are many meanings to each one and that he knows some of them and would need to read the book to know more he explains how the hands turn there's three of them and how to ask questions and spin them to get answers he says the questioner has to be able to hold the meanings in their head and let that lithiometer play out without pushing it like free will yeah yeah a little like that being able to have that depth but breath we'll talk a little bit about the lithiometer in a bit for now they asked lyra did you keep it a secret from mrs

coulter and she's like i tried to but i think that her demon saw it john faul explains like why the master acted the way that he did that it had That he has to stay in the light of the church while also maintaining this balance of keeping Lyra safe. And he explains that there's a lot of corruption going on. And if the master gave Lyra to Mrs. Coulter, it meant that she was going to be safer there than

she would have been in the school. That the master and other scholars loved Lyra, like their own child, and would keep her safe, not just because of the promise to Asriel, but definitely for her own sake. Yeah. He says,

if the master was going to poison Asriel, that Asriel may be endangering all of them with his studies. And he says, I see the master as a man having terrible choices to make. Whatever he chooses will do harm, but maybe if he does the right thing, a little that encapsulates the total feeling of this book series. of a lot of it and having terrible choices and i think a lot of it ends up being a choice between harm to more people or choosing to shoulder that harm like to yourself or something and we'll discuss that i think a little yeah a little later on talked about when we were recording we talked

about the good place uh the other day we recorded and i think there's a lot of that here too that every choice you make like season three in the good place they learn every choice you make has a ton of unintended consequences and the best you could do is you know try to just make the right choice but sometimes the right choice isn't the right choice and life is confusing so i think there's a lot to come that makes this a little more complex than that yeah oh the master oh and of course the master had actually been the one to give her the symbol reader and he's like hoping that it is going to help her out on her journey and john fa thinks i mean maybe the master wants you to like return it to azrael and

lara's like i that's what i thought but she's not really sure why she has this thing now john fa tells her to keep it safe and then asks um and then lyra asks wait who is the nurse who had fought to keep me safe all these years of course he tells her it was billy costa's mother he bids her good night he tells her there will be another roping in three days and she scoops up pan she clutches the alethiometer and she joins ma costa who's waiting in the hall like nothing whatsoever had happened ma costa gathers her in her arms and kisses her bearing her off to bed oh yeah i'm like i have an emotion or seven oh ma costa yeah well that is the end of chapter seven john fa that brings us into chapter 8, Frustration.

Lyra is still adjusting to this entire new backstory that she was given, because it's got a lot. Asriel wasn't that big of an issue for her to accept, as much as Mrs. Coulter was. She thinks about how months ago she would have rejoiced, but now she feels confused.

But she doesn't fret about it too long, because she now gets to explore the Fentown. And this leads to meeting more Egyptian children, where she heralds them, as always. Oh my god, Lyra, of course, is the ringleader.

She gets all these little street urchin children together, is how it's described, and she holds court. She holds audience, and she just is a storytelling dude she's telling them about how uh her new backstory is and then one evening the turkish ambassador was a guest at jordan for dinner and he was under orders from the sultan himself to kill my father right and he had a ring on his finger with a hollow stone full of poison and when the wine come round he made as if to reach around my father's glass and he sprinkled the poison in

it was done so quick no one else saw him but what sort of poison demanded a thin-faced girl poison out of a special turkish serpent lyra invented on the spot she's just ridiculous she like goes on and she's like they're playing a pipe to learn out my my dad saw what happened and he's he says i want to propose a toast of friendship between us and and then he he says we'll swap glasses and drink each other's wine and she's telling all these stories about how badass her dad is which is basically lyra's superpower storytelling and lying um and there's obviously that line of when the stories and the lies are bad when they stop saving her right but here right now

it's just for fun this girl's just waxing poetic telling them of her father's journeys that she suddenly knows so much about yeah and all of it it's great because all of this is just kind of based off that one moment at the beginning of the book. And Lyra's like, but how can I make it cooler? And specialer. If this was like a modern story, you'd just have Lyra like trying to put a cast together and make a production of it and like borrowing a video camera from someone. Aw. Check out my YouTube channel. A little group of street rats like doing a performance.

Aw, my friends and i used to do that no cameras though but right right before that time alas while ira tells invented stories of her father's journey and expeditions police are knocking at doors around the edges of the country they're inspecting interrogating and oxford it's even worse over there jordan college is scoured from head to toe because they think, like, clearly she's just going to come back here. And they look at Gabriel and St. Michael's as well until the heads of the colleges finally banded together to say enough is enough.

And all the while, Lyra just hears airships and gas engines in the sky that are invisible to her. And then she hears the engines. She knows to stay undercover and wear her seal skin coat to hide her hair. This is all ground warfare to find this little girl all for this little girl definitely the symbol head of this rebellion yeah she's she's exhausted ma costa on details of her birth at this point she has a mental tapestry

laid out of the stories and she's like fabricating some details that ma has to correct like lyra adds swords to the story and macos is like they had guns lyra like this isn't the 1700s god apparently asriel knocked the gun out of the hand and struck down the guy and shot him twice the first shot was edward coulter the second shot was asriel who tore it out of his grasp and turned it on him uh and i love this passage right here then he said come out mrs costa and bring the baby because you were setting up such a howl you and that dame in both and he took you up and dandled you and sat you on his shoulders walking up and down in high good humor with the dead man at his feet and called for wine and b made me swap the floor oh my god zazrael jesus christ you fucking narcissistic sociopath pretty weird guy yeah he's like can i get some wine i mean i would

want wine too after this uh the lyra parentage reveal is a so relieving okay that it's over because like it's just relieving and b it's so revealing it's like this is very dysfunctional this is peak dysfunctional asriel and his love and how weirdly conditional his love that he gives is right uh coulter's precipice of almost loving lyra but also wanting to control her is very different from how asriel feels about lyra and both asriel and coulter seem to be selfish narcissistic people who do see lyra as an extension ofra and both Asriel and Coulter seem to be selfish narcissistic people who do see Lyra as an extension of themselves and while Asriel has closed her off mostly and protected her from her mother Marisa kind of ends up the more sympathetic character in this story we'll

talk about that throughout the next books and of course in discussions but neither of them were prepared for this child and they were too wrapped up in their ambitions and intrigues to care properly for her, and Ma Costa filled that maternal hole the best she could. But this story is indeed Lyra learning to experience the world, and experience love, even, for the first time. Lyra's biological parents may be these two, but her real role models and parental figures surface later on in this book. Yeah, yeah, and I i mean lyra doesn't feel

like she's missed out on anything right there are other characters who do long for those parental figures lyra has had a lot of love at least around her from the scholars who are like i don't know what to do i can't really teach you but i guess i'll you know i love you anyway but knowing that asriel is her father really puts into context some of that stuff we were talking about in the earlier episodes of like Lord Asriel quizzing her on what she's learned and probably just coming away with a look of horror like oh my god my daughter doesn't

know anything no one's teaching her anything and that's a thing that's what they did they just shoved her away and said okay this is where you'll be raised yeah kinda and I mean, like, to that extent, the master probably did

a way better job than Asriel or Colter would have done. She'd be a little murdering machine by now. Oh my god. And they, I mean, she would have had a hard time growing up with those two, so thankfully she had the master. Even though he, like, stirs things with pencils, but... After the fourth retelling of all of these stories, so thankfully she had the master even though he like stirs things with pencils but after the

fourth retelling of all of these stories lyra has convinced herself that she remembers these details firsthand oh my god as a baby and between this and like retelling these different versions of her father doing things whenever she has free time she's also pouring over the alethiometer now yeah i mean it's it's the only thing she can really do she doesn't have like a cell phone yeah and there's this little thought she has and she is trying to understand the different meanings and she thinks so each image had several meanings did it why shouldn't she work them out wasn't she lord asriel's daughter she's never been able to take pride or have parentage

until now and she seems to project and just throw herself headfirst into it very hard yeah and because that she like then tries to focus and remember what farter quorum said and attempts to read it and although she seems to be getting nothing it does feel nice to her at least and we have those cute things where pan watches closely too so exciting for me bit by bit she feels like she's making a little progress and then you know they'll work together make eye contact but it feels like oh maybe we understood something then three days pass and the second roping starts and the hall is even more full than it was during the first roping john fa calls on all the family heads to bring their gold and recount their promises,

and they do. The Rokebees send Nicholas, and he offers 38 men in gold, and others continue to come up. The Kostas are a part of the Stonaskis, and Tony volunteered to come forward, of course, with great pride. His hawk demon shifts from foot to foot as the gold and promise of 23 men is given. Overall, they bring 170 Egyptian men, and they plan to charter a ship to sail north to free children.

Dirk Vries asks why the kids are being captured, and John says he's heard they're experimenting with them, and they don't know if they're in harm's way or not, but the people have no right to pluck children out of their beds. And then Raymond motherfucking Van Garrett, his little bitch ass, has to speak up and say the people are getting their houses turned upside down looking for this child

and they're trying to pass laws to take our ancient rights away and free movement away in the fence why is this land loping child putting us all in danger yeah and Jon Favre then responds just like now spell it out Raymond don't be shy.

He said, You want us to give this child up. To them she's a fleeing from. Is that right? The man stood obstinately frowning, but said nothing. Well, perhaps you would, and perhaps you wouldn't, Jon Faw continued. But if any man or woman needs a reason for doing good, ponder on this. That little girl is the daughter of Lord Asriel, no less. For them as has forgotten, it were Lord Asriel who interceded with the Turk for the life of Sam Brokman. It were Lord Asriel who allowed Gyptian boats free passage on the canals through his property.

It were Lord Asriel who defeated the watercourse bill in Parliament to our great and lasting benefit. And it were Lord Asriel who fought day and night in the floods of 53 and pledged headlong in the water twice to pull out Young Rudd and Nellie Koopman. You forgotten that? Shame. Shame on you. Shame. And now that same Lord Asriel is held in the farthest, coldest, darkest regions of the wild, captive in the forests of Svalbard, do I need to tell you the kind of creatures guarding him there? And this is his little daughter in our care, and Raymond Van Garrett would hand her over to the authorities for a bit of peace and quiet. Is that right, Raymond? Stand up and answer, man. And Garrett would hand her over to the authorities for a bit of peace and quiet. Is that right, Raymond? Stand up and answer, man.

Yeah, stand up, Raymond. Stand the fuck up, Raymond. Stand up, Raymond. I regret to inform you, Raymond did not stand the fuck up, you guys. Raymond was like, nope, I'm just gonna put myself low in my seat. And Raymond is embarrassed. And a hiss of disapproval sneaks through the hall. And Lyra can feel Raymond's shame even,

but she also is feeling pride for her quote unquote brave dad. And however his nature is, Asriel's charisma and courage are known and valued by all. We see this in Jon Fah's speech and Lyra embodies that bravery going forward.

Jon Fah begins commanding men, Rokeby to find a vessel, Stefanski to manage arms and munitions and fighting, Roger Van Poppel to manage the stores, Hartman to be treasurer, Ryder to be spy and report to Farder, Quorum, Canzona to coordinate the first four leaders' work,

and be Fah's second if he should die. Sorry, I got lost. Yeah, and a woman asks if he's taking, are you taking any women on this expedition to help take care of the children when you find them? And he's like, yeah, I mean, I guess it makes sense because we might need female disguises

as well. And then a man asks, so what, are you gonna rescue Asriel from the bears? Like, you're gonna waste some of this money and put these men in danger to rescue this one dude from the bears and john falls like all right we might be able to we might not we're gonna see it we're gonna just play by ear see how things go and we're up there uh but we're not gonna use any of the men

and the gold for anything outside of the children those are the priority another woman worries about the state of the children when they come home as they know nothing but rumors of what gobblers do and she tells him she hopes he takes revenge i hope you ain't gonna let thoughts of mercy and gentleness hold back your hand from striking and striking hard and delivering a mighty blow to the heart of that infernal wickedness and i'm sure i speak for any mother as has lost a child to the gobblers oh john fa tells her that nothing will hold his hand but judgment that he understands what she's saying they're placing the satisfaction

of their feelings after the work because first comes the rescue and then punishment if they can when the time comes to punish we shall strike such a blow as will make their hearts faint and fearful we shall strike the strength out of them we shall leave them ruined and

wasted, broken and shattered, torn in a thousand pieces and scattered to the four winds. Don't you worry that Jon Fah's heart is too soft to strike a blow when the time comes. The time will come under judgment, not under passion. It's

clear Fah is just and good that he understands what's at stake fewer than 200 of their men going up against a government company that's in league with so many higher powers that if i tell everyone right now i'll spoil the books so i'm not going to do that and the cost of this war is so high but the loss of their children is higher and this misdeed and evil has to be stopped. Yes, it does. It does. And so they decide what to do. And the men leave for the parley room without Lyra to her disappointment.

Because she's like, I want to go north too. And Tony laughs and he's like, maybe I'll bring you a walrus tooth. And she's like, what the fuck? It's not the same. Pan is like making faces at Tony's demon. It's very mature to match Lyra's scowl. I know. She gets bored.

She eventually wanders to the parlay room. She sees a light in the window and she makes up her mind to knock on the door and demand to go north and help rescue the kids from the gobblers, especially Roger. She offers her navigation skills and her ambaromagnetic readings of the aurora and her bare liver eating skills as well. Or not bare liver eating. Or not, exactly. She even says the woman from the meeting was right. You might need women to play a part.

Maybe you'll need a kid. Which they do. But Pha won't hear of it. Her job is to stay safely here. She leaves frustrated and she turns to Pan saying let him try to stop us we're gonna go that's that's like the most lyra move ever it is like tell her no like lyra no and lyra's like lyra yeah she's that's exactly her every time which then brings us to chapter nine the spies because yes lyra as typical is plotting. It's time. We're gonna

get on the boats. She's basing all of her plans only on stories she's heard of boats. Which, you know, she's like, we could still on the wrong boat, but you know, whatever, whatever. It's gonna be fine. It's fine. She hangs out and she's trying to get to know

a couple of other people going on this trip like Adam Stefanski, Roger Van Poppel, and Benjamin DeRoyter. Lyra's always trying to be one of the boys. She's like, hello, do you need a little sister? Well, I don't want to be your little sister. How about a leader to rule you? It's me. I'm here.

Yeah, especially because they're going to be spies. And she's like, yeah, they're totally going to take me. Yeah, obviously. Absolutely. She latches on to Fardercorum next. She's acting like she can help him, and Fardercorum, bless him, takes pity on her and talks to her and practices reading the alethiometer with her. She's so super into his demon, Sophonax, and she longs to touch its fur, but to touch another demon's fur is actually a huge taboo. Yes, it was the grossest breach of etiquette imaginable to touch another's demon. Yes, it was the grossest breach of etiquette imaginable to touch another's demon.

Demons might touch each other, of course, or fight, but the prohibition against human-demon contact went so deep that even in battle, no warrior would touch an enemy's demon. It was utterly forbidden. Lyra couldn't remember having to be told that, she just knew it, as instinctively as she felt that nausea was bad and comfort good. Yeah, we're definitely going to talk about this one in the discussion. Because I'm spoiling things. As they practice, though, the alethiometer keeps returning to the hourglass,

and Lyra doesn't understand why, and Farticorum helps Lyra understand that it has a little bit to do with the skull that's on the top of this hourglass. The first meaning of the symbol has to do with time, but there's a second layer of meaning behind it, which has to do with death. And the alethiometer swings around and twitches on a symbol before going to another one. And Lyra had actually turns out been thinking about Benjamin DeRoyter by bringing together the serpent, the crucible, and the beehive. Because I thought the serpent was cunning, like a spy ought to be, and the crucible could mean

like knowledge, what you kind of distill and the beehive was hard work like bees are always working hard so out of the hard work and the cunning comes the knowledge see and that's the spy's job and i pointed to them and i thought the question in my mind and the needle stopped at death do you think that could really be working farter quorum hmm i I love the reading of the alethiometer scenes. I know, I do too. They're kind of like few and far between too eventually. They're really fun.

As they wonder whether they are reading and using it right, they are then interrupted by a knock at the door with news about Benjamin Droider. Jacob Wiesemans who was with him has returned. He's got internal bleeding now and he tells them that he got off of Peter's boat. Peter's fine, by the way.

Benjamin, though, is dead. Yikes. And Jacob's in so much pain, his ferret demon is speaking for him, a rarity as demons don't usually speak to humans that aren't their own. She tells them the gobblers they captured said the children were going north of Lapland

and has to catch her breath before explaining about the Ministry of Theology and Lord Boreal. But it turns out everything they tried to do, the other side was already one step ahead, almost as if they knew. She recounts going to the ministry at White Hall and Benjamin's death and the ensuing brawl. Farder Quorum lets Jacob rest when the physician comes, and he tells Lyra they'll have to talk about the alethiometer later. But before then, and he tells Lyra they'll have to talk about the alethiometer later. But before then, she ponders with Pan.

She fears the alethiometer, and she wonders if it's a spirit. Pan rules that out, because he'd have been able to see it. He suggests they are elementary particles, and at first Lyra scoffs, but she remembers the cloth reminds her of an instrument she saw at the altar at the oratory. Yeah, it was too hard to summarize to describe this instrument, so I'm just going to read it aloud. has nothing to do with anything but at gabriel collars there was a very holy object kept on the high altar of the oratory covered now lyra thought about it with a black velvet cloth like the one around the lithiometer she had seen it when she accompanied the librarian of jordan to his service there at the height of the invocation the intercessor lifted the cloth to reveal in the

dimness a glass dome inside which there was something too distant to see, until he pulled a string attached to a shutter above, letting a ray of sunlight through to strike the dome exactly. Then it became clear, a little thing, like a weather vane, with four black sails on one side and white on the other, that began to whirl around as the light struck it. It illustrated a moral lesson, the intercessor explained, and went on to explain what that was. Five minutes later, Lyra had forgotten the moral, but she hadn't forgotten

the little whirling veins and the ray of dusty light. They were delightful, whatever they meant, and all done by the power of photons, said the librarian as they walked home to Jordan. Librarian, it's not God, it's photons. Yeah, I love that. Thanks for grabbing that memory, because it's interesting god it's photons yeah i i love that thanks for grabbing that memory because that

it's interesting because suddenly she's like oh wait this is a real thing and it convinces her sure why not so this is part for us i think really because obviously lyra's not paying attention attention to it right this second but tony tony costa shouts at her that she has to go see Jon Fah urgently. Coram had told Jon about her reading the Alethiometer, and they've decided to bring her along because Jacob just died. Boo. Two weeks pass, very busy, more hiding, sleeping by gas, not being allowed topside, and she must,

because the kingdom is hunting for her, stay hiding, and the rumors about her are running wild. At first it delights her but then she's like no i want to go outside she longs to be back home with roger running over the roofs but everything has obviously changed and again that's the symbol of the rebellion but she's not actually free you know poor ly. She wants to be free. Yeah. Yeah, this was the case also in the Hunger Games. Every day, Lyra practices reading the Alethiometer with Farter Coram, and I liked this description of it. She found that she could sink more and more readily into the calm state in which the symbol meanings clarified themselves, and those great mountain ranges touched by sunlight merged into vision.

She explains that it's almost like talking to someone, only you can't quite hear them, and you feel kind of stupid because they're cleverer than you, only they don't get across or anything, and they know such a lot, Farter Coram, as if they knew everything, almost. Mrs. Coulter was clever. She knew ever such a lot, but this is a different kind of knowing. It's like understanding, I suppose. Coram asks what Mrs. Coulter is doing, and Lyra walks him through the process. Well, the Madonna is Mrs. Coulter, and I think my mother, when I put the hand there, and the aunt is busy, that's easy, that's the top meaning, and the hourglass has got time in its meanings, and partway down there's now, and I just fix my mind on it. And how do you know where these meanings are?

I kind of see them, or feel them, rather, like climbing down a ladder at night. You put your foot down and there's another rung. Well, I put my mind down and there's another meaning, and I kind of sense what it is. Then I put them all together. There's a trick in it, like focus in your eyes. So Fartor Quorum watches Lyra watching the lithiometer, and he likens the look on her face to watching expert players of chess who seem to see, quote,

lines of force and influence on the board, end quote, and cause the movement of Lyra's eyes like a magnetic field. And then they see the lithiometer give some answers. The needle stopped at the thunder thought that the thunderbolt the infant the serpent the elephant and at a creature lyra couldn't find a name for a sort of lizard with

big eyes and a tail curled around the twig it stood on it repeated the sequence time after time while lyra watched what's that lizard mean said frider quorum breaking into her concentration it don't make sense i can see what it says but i must be misreading it the thunderbolt i think is anger and the child i think it's me i was getting a meaning for the lizard thing but you talked to me far decorum and i lost it see it's just floating up any old where interesting yeah interesting and i think some of these symbols do come back into play later on in the actual plot now that i think about it so oh yeah i mean like some of them it gets repeated and and so as lyra points out the thunderbolt is anger

when the child guesses her it often refers to whoever's asking the question the serpent the serpent is probably meaning cutting or like secrecy and the elephant as we're gonna find out in like a second so i don't feel bad telling everyone um is referring to africa and then in a moment we'll find out about this lizard anyways lyra doesn't want to stop she's excited but confined in the cabin she asks where they are they're on kobe water an estuary of the river coal they plan to get down at smoke water coram takes pity on lyra and lets her topside for a little bit it's cold and pan becomes a seagull which to put us in our animal corner for a second seagulls represent adaptability and resourcefulness and survival even if it's uncomfortable in the means to survive

which is very similar to dragonflies which someday we'll get into that too yeah there's a lot of things a lot of aminals across the brow expanse. Pan is the only sign of life, and suddenly, though, he falls in pain, and Lyra feels it, too, and cries out, because there's these little insect beetle thingies attacking them. Rita Skeeter, no! No!

The Tiller's Cormorant demon rescues them, and they manage to actually catch one of the creatures, but the other one gets away, and it continues to buzz and snarl despite being a very small machine, and the tillerman's like, so you should have stayed below deck.

Oh, shit. They, uh, they examine the creature below deck, and it is a machine. If you was to crack it open, said Farnacorum, you'd find no living thing in there, no animal nor insect at any rate. I seen one of these things afore, and I never thought I'd see one again this far north. Afric things.

There's a clockwork running in there, and pinned to the spring of it there's a bad spirit with a spell through its heart. But who sent it? You don't even need to read the symbols, Lyra. You can guess as easy as I can. Mrs. Coulter? Course. She ain't only explored up north. There's strange things aplenty in the southern wild. It was

Morocco where I saw one of these last. Deadly dangerous, while the spirit's in it. It won't ever stop. And when you let the spirit free, it's so monstrous angry it'll kill the first thing it gets at. But what was it after? Spying. I was a cursed fool to let you up above.

And I should have let you think your way through the symbols without interrupting. I see it now, said Lyra, suddenly excited. It means air, that lizard thing. I see that, but I couldn't see why, so I tried to work it out and I lost it. Ah, said Farder Coram, then I see it too. It ain't see why, so I tried to work it out and I lost it. Ah, said Fartacorum, then I see it too. It ain't a lizard, that's why. It's a chameleon. And it stands for air, because they don't eat nor drink.

They just live on air. Is that true? I don't believe that. I don't believe that. They eat insects, I'm pretty sure. Sorry. Yeah, I'm pretty sure they eat insects. And the elephant?

Africa, he said. And aha. They looked at each other. With every revelation of the alethiometer's power, they became more awed by it. It was telling us about these things all the time, said Lyra. We oughter listened. But what can we do about this one, Fardecorum? Can we kill it or something?

I don't know as we can do anything. We shall just have to keep him shut up tight in a box and never let him out what worries me more is the other one has got away he'll be a flying back to mrs coulter now with news that he's seen you damn me lyra but i'm a fool oh some of these some of these meetings i am kind of suspect about i'm gonna have to say like still looking at fucking chameleons capture prey they eat things all right so i'm just like it's it's strange talk about it in a bit but um so in an interview philip pullman has explained some stuff about creating the alethiometer and its symbols like what did influence his creation

of the alethiometer were those extraordinary devices they had about the middle of the 16th century. They had emblems, they were emblem books, the idea that you had a little moral, a little piece of wisdom encapsulated in a verse, usually latin, usually doggerel, and a sort of motto, and illustrating those there was a picture. So I invented the alethiometer using a mixture of conventional symbols such as the anchor, which is a traditional symbol for hope, and ones I made up like clearly the the chameleon's got to be fucking made up sorry yeah part of why i find the alethiometer scenes so exciting and it was something i was

really looking forward to for us to finally get to lyra reading them is because i think there's they're really fun there's a definitely i think a sort of poetry wrapped up in them we're all here because we like reading and we like books and words and i think there's a lot of linguistic ideas behind them for example you can in the language of how lyra interprets the lithiometer or anyone does you can see a lot of principles of like semiotics which is part of linguistics at play. So Soar had a theory of what he called signs. Signs are made up of a signifier and a signified. And a signifier is something like a symbol, right? For example, a signifier is a word, the word tree, T-R-E-E. When you see it or when someone says it, that's a signifier. And tree, the sound

itself, the letters, the markings don't really mean anything. But the signified attached to it, that's the actual idea. That's the concept. You all know what a tree looks like. That's the actual image of it. It can be like any kind of tree, right? But we just attach arbitrary words and meanings to things. And then part of what works, but the signifier and the signified together become very bonded, and that becomes something called a sign. And the way that language works is we give meaning to these signs also through a system in which they have relationships with one another. In language, that's like syntax or the order, the grammatical structure.

And what's also interesting about the way that the alethiometer works is Lyra describes this idea of going down the several ladders of meaning. And what we have here are each of then the symbols around the alethiometer, each of these pictures represent an actual thing. Those are acting as our signifiers. And each of the ladders going down them, from my understanding of linguistics, represents something called semantic neighborhoods. They're each of the different meanings that are related to these words. And there are these ideas of words where you have concrete words and abstract words. Concrete words or nouns are actual things that people know.

They're tangible. You can touch them. For example, you know what a cup is, right? It's a fucking cup versus an abstract word, which is a concept like bravery, right? You can't touch bravery, but you kind of can understand it. So by using this visual language, the symbols are grounded in concrete ideas, and therefore words

in a way, you can think of them as words. And they allude to a lot of these abstract concepts and words. For example, the, again, that thunderbolt is anger, right? And it's interesting because as a language, it only delivers these signs while Lyra as the reader, she doesn't have that those symptoms with which to put the language together. She's the one actually piecing together a grammatical structure. She's just given in a way those words and she has to understand the relationships and systems behind all of them. the relationships and systems behind all of them. But there's also a lot of the way the symbols work that's very, I think, contextual and only works within, in my opinion, a Western literary context or in a society like Lyra's, which is very, very heavily based around a church. So there's an example that one linguistic scholar gives around the word mutton, the sign for mutton.

The sign for mutton, the signifier and signified operate differently in English and in French, right? Because it's the same signifier, M-U-T-T-O-N, but in English, the signified means like cooked lamb or not lamb, but cooked sheep, right? But in French, the word is then pronounced mouton, and it means both the cooked sheep, but it can also mean the live sheep. So the sign is more complex and different. And I think that's very much the case for some of the symbols on the alethiometer as well. Like, would it even be as effective or legible to someone from a different cultural context? Turns out one of the symbols is bread, and some of the meanings behind that are Christ or sacrifice. But bread wouldn't necessarily mean that for someone from a different culture. So some of these traditional symbols, I think, don't always have the same connotations across the world. And then, of course, there are some of the ones that I quibble with, like, yeah, the elephant represents Africa, in my opinion, my personal opinion. the elephant could also mean india but turns out the camel is the

symbol that's designated to represent asia in general but we'll we'll talk more i'm gonna dig into some other stuff with this in the discussion but yeah thank you for letting me everyone go off on this no that was really interesting and it is interesting because it's like putting together these predicates to make a sentence right like you're exactly yeah it's putting a story together that's what it is and lyra is forming a story with these pictures and getting a deeper understanding of the subject of the story and what the subject is doing where the subject is going um it's really interesting and and that's like great i i think that's a great connection because Lyra, as you said earlier, she's a storyteller. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, so she's storytelling her fate as well. Coram hatches a plan later to solder this tin tightly. The spirit inside will become angrier as they hold it, he says. When they get to the smoke market, almost everyone is indoors. The first person they see is Tony Costa, and they learn that Jack Verhoeven was shot and killed. They share this encounter with John Fah, and there's no getting rid of the creature that they found, so they decide to keep it close by and keep an eye on it. And so begins their voyage. Lyra, who is the only female, gets her own cabin, but after stowing her things, she runs back up to watch England vanish. It's really cool at first, but Lyra then gets seasick with Pan and her feeling ill at ease,

so they head back down and they begin their journey north. Adventure stinks. That's how it felt. I'm surprised. I mean, I guess the waters are harder. Is she not used to it? But I guess that's how it goes. Yeah.

Oh, man. Wow. Chapter 9, over. Yep. like is she not used to it but i guess that's how it goes yeah oh man wow all right chapter nine over yep those are the three chapters everyone if you are reading along and haven't read the rest of the series we are now about to begin our discussion and i mean now we've just decided and by we i mean me i've decided it's going to cover everything from the rest of the three books yeah um i'm as we kind of talked about at the top i'm about 140 ish pages from the end i'm very close i'm very very close and eliana is dying right now because i just won't finish the damn book you guys it's fine i'm fine i worked at it this morning i read like 100 pages so i'm getting there morning. I read like 100 pages.

So I'm getting there. If I just read like 100 pages when I can in the mornings, I'll be good. But we have lots to talk about. This will definitely cover up to kind of what I've talked about. And we'll save some of it for the dustier cushion, obviously. But that is going to be where Eliana waxes for a while without me. You guys will have to listen to her go. Yep.

Until, you know, maybe next episode. That's not going to exist, you know? It might not. So catch up. You. You catch up. Everyone else too, though. It's for the people, not me. Sure. Alright. Whatever. Yeah, so I'm going to continue a little bit of that discussion

about linguistics and the alethiometer before Chloe's got a lot of really great insights as well. And I think some of these might lead into it. Maybe, maybe not. I don't know. Lyra will encounter later on in the story different ways of speaking with dust. There's this like supercomputer in Mary Malone's office that's called the cave. And there in that world, she speaks with Mary about how this machine can be made to actually communicate using different kinds of language.

For example, one is, of course, the language of pictures that Lyra speaks in, and the other is the I Ching that Mary has a poster of and kind of knows a little bit of. And then, of course, she means you can also use written language, like actual words that people are used to. And I think it's kind of interesting that adaptability of how it can be interacted with when it comes to language and could perhaps speak to the more fixed nature of the adult mind when it comes to understanding like

the way dust speaks and then letting the machine do the lifting of sorting out those syntax and that syntax of answers and doing away with the other ladders of meaning that lyra is able to do and interestingly like the responses that mary gets are still somewhat opaque and symbolic they're like still pretty fucking cryptic and it tells her like roles that she must play like you must play the role of the serpent and like that's pretty fucking confusing so in a sense it isn't wrong to think of the alethiometer's language as still being that sort of poetry and a lot of it i think coincides with this idea of visual language in the books chloe has been of course walking us through the meaning of different demons and what that tells us about the people and there's like a really great essay

by amanda m greenwell it's called The Language of Pictures, Visual Representation, and Spectatorship in Philip Pullman's Historic Materials that talks a lot about visuals and storytelling. Yeah, there will be even more lithiometer discussion in the deeper dustier discussion section, which hopefully

I'm telling you, we could be, it could go away next time. It could go away next week. It really could. I'll put my brain to it. I promise. you, we could be, it could go away next time. It could go away next week. It could. It really could. I'll put my brain to it. I promise. Well, really interesting stuff, especially on those linguistics. It's something that I just didn't think about. So I'm glad you hit on that.

I do want to hearken back to A Song of Innocence and Experience by William Blake, the two books with the two stories. And I wanted to talk about two of the songs on both Innocence and Experience, Little Girl Lost and Little Girl Found, and then Little Boy Lost and Little Boy Found. This is something that once you read these two pieces, it will never leave your brain that these two sets of poems and songs in Innocence and Experience are not only related to each other, but they represent Lyra and Will from two worlds and two books in each directly. In Songs of Experience, we get Little Girl Lost. It's a 1794 poem. The scholar Greville Lindop actually said the poem represents Blake's transition between the innocence

of childhood to complexity and maturity of adulthood. He also says the first verse is prophetic in this poem, that saying that our world will be redeemed by a god. And basically, as this poem begins, the character, Laika, L-Y-C-A, wanders out into the wilderness, and her parents are worried for her. The knowledge of their worry doesn't get her worrying, and the very beasts that her parents have told her will harm her are very kind to her, and they lay her to sleep and rest in a cave sleeping like a lay while the beasts of prey come from caverns deep viewed the maid asleep is a verse from little girl lost on the same exact page you get the next poem little girl found it little girl found like as parents look for their daughter in the sequel lost now in the desert they go looking for days and nights until

a lion tells them where to find her it ends with all of them dwelling in a quiet natural environment away from corruption and it gives hope to a better world someday of learning and developing follow me he said weep not for the maid in my palace deep like a lies asleep yeah so very interesting those are really i i really suggest reading them uh it's very obvious that pullman pulled this one yeah like that's like a lyra the the sleeping in the cave a lot of it reminds me of stuff in uh the amber spyglass yes that is exactly what i thought too uh yeah coulter and we definitely have some coulter talk to get to soon but can i quickly say and i think it's hilarious that you pointed out you know she's

wandering in the wilderness and her parents are worried for her but you know for a lot of this first book lyra's parents are not fucking worried for her as real especially he doesn't give a shit he's like whatever she'll be fine coulter kind of is i mean she's yeah she's at the whole kingdom yeah to find her yeah but as real is like whatever that fucking kid is wild i don't care about her so songs of innocence the other book in this uh co-packed book has two poems little boy lost and little boy found and little boy lost begins with a boy walking behind his father asking his dad to this co-packed book, has two poems, Little Boy Lost and Little Boy Found. And Little Boy Lost begins with a boy walking behind his father, asking his dad to slow down so he doesn't get lost.

There's an illustration that actually comes with the poem in the original book. The child is following a dim light, referred to as a vapor, in the poem. Night comes and the little boy is lost, walking in a soggy ground, covered in mud and weeping

as the vapor flies away. No the deeper analysis is joe parry uh the deeper deeper analysis is the little boy covered in mud is equal to adults following the wrong god in a life of sin covered in sin lost forever which obviously is dust pretty much and there is this bit of the poem that these stanzas father father where are you going oh do not walk so fast speak father speak to your little boy or else i shall be lost the night was dark no father was there the child was wet with dew the mire was deep and the child did weep and away the vapor flew the vapor i'm sorry i'm just like imagining a little like shimmering paper oh my god no it's a vapor this is so will yeah absolutely and this gets even deeper in the sequel in little boy found because in the first stanza the little boy is lost in the bog and afraid when god comes to

him in the second stanza god or basically it's a father figure in white leads will i mean leads the boy back back to his mother who has been looking for him uh which is basically the direct drawing of will's arc right he's lost he leaves his mother he's afraid he meets his father finally his father sends him on his journey to maybe someday return home yeah i mean i think a lot of these i think you've really found something that that coleman's drawing from yeah and there's this there's something that thomas connelly wrote called pictorial and poetic design and two songs of innocence about this and says some individuals are maimed because they are exposed to destructive

experience without the shielding protection of a guardian. And I think that's really representative of Will and obviously Lyra as well in a few ways. But the stanza of the poem I want to share is the little boy lost in the lonely fen, led by wandering light, began to cry. But God ever nigh appeared like his father in white. god ever nigh appeared like his father in white he kissed the child and by the hand led and to his mother brought who in sorrow pale through the lonely dale her little weeping boy sought oh a fen a fen i know yeah it's very much so uh and i mean he's pulling from that you know that pastoral writing uh pullman very much so is pulling from pastorial writings in general but william blake is obviously what he's pulling from it a lot of things there's that and obviously with

this religious imagery and this overtone these ideas right of innocence to experience some of the language uh here reminds me you know the innocence that time in the garden of eden right before the fall of man and that's very much something that Pullman is exploring in his version of Lyra as Eve and Will as Adam. So, very interesting. Great

catch. Thanks, I felt like I really did my homework this week. You did! It was really good. I'm gonna have to check out these poems. Yeah, I will. And they're all online. You can see them all online for free. I mean, William Blake's been dead for a long time.

And anyone trying to make money off him, too. You know, I mean, here we are. This is who's making money off him now. Oops. I really love that we finally get the defense slash the reasoning for the master. Because Jon Fah has that line i see the master as a man having terrible choices to make whatever he chooses will do harm but maybe if he does the right thing a little less harm will come about than if he chooses wrong god preserved me from having to make that sort of choice very much so also about Lyra yeah absolutely there are a couple of things that I think about with this

one of them and I think this will go into your next thing one of them is Lyra going into the underworld because it's a terrible choice and for some reason apparently that's the portrayal that was prophesied and not the unknowing betrayal of Roger, according to, I guess, the books.

But the choice she makes does harm. It harms her, most of all, and Pan. But there's a little less harm than if she had chosen wrong and decided not to go. Yeah, I mean, she got to free all of these souls, all these people that were going to be trapped forever. They were going to be trapped in eternity and now they get to be part of the world. And it reminds me a lot of the little mermaid,

the actual original origin of the fairy tale that, you know, mermaids have no soul and they can become foam. You know, if they die, they become foam on the sea and they have to look for their souls for thousands of years until they can ascend and uh rest finally and that's kind of what that reminds me of as well when you get to that cave with all of the ghosts yeah but most of them i

think find their soul yeah quick enough they dissipate quickly they i like that idea it's it's like a happy little mermaid ending right where they dissipate they become part of the rest of the world yeah it's really happy it's after her uh sisters all cut all their magical hair off and trade it to the sea witch and they're like here's a knife that we traded everything we could to the sea witch to get for you if you kill the prince and let his blood wash over your feet it'll turn back into a tail and you can come back home and she's like she stands over him and she's like i'm gonna kill him and then she's like no i'm gonna kill myself and then she becomes seafoam and does good deeds for a thousand years on the seafoam to get a soul yeah but like the part in the books that we're reading it's it's a little

happier no interesting interesting about the knife yeah the subtle is it a subtle yeah i think that's a subtle knife yeah maybe it is but yeah so because Lyra goes through the underworld, she ends up having some similarities to witches in that she can be separated from her demon, but still tied to them on that soul level, but separated physically for a while. Yeah, and it's very much so foreshadowed that there's a lot to come for Lyra in this chapter, especially when Ma Costa tells her that she has the witch blood.

I thought that was very interesting, especially with the deception and how Ma Costa was like, no, it's a compliment that I'm telling you that you're good at lying. Like this is, you know, Lyra Silvertongue someday, as we know. And I just thought that was very interesting especially when you consider the parentage reveal that we just talked about so if you go back to raymond sinking low in his seat shameful that we talked about and how asriel's charisma and courage are known and valued by all and lyra's embodying that bravery now lyra's projecting obviously for the family she never had right she's trying to relate into this parentage of asriel and reject marisa's parentage the idea of marisa growing to be the sympathetic character that we all kind of start to feel more remorse for later and asriel as that hardened person that we hated until the end

it's it's hard even for lyra to comprehend she believes asriel even before he was her father is an amazing adventurer if not harsh and she knows before this is she tries to embody that bravery or his supposed bravery in her actions in this book leading up to that finale of the golden compass and northern lights but she doesn't realize as she's embodying that bravery she's actually embodying his true nature he's deceitful and charismatic and she uses that to propel herself through these books it's her lies that protect her and the ones she loves and they reel her toward the finish line of that temptation yeah absolutely and she gets it she gets it from both sides yeah

obviously and i mean it's funny because lyra spends a lot of the books right running from her parents for obvious reasons because they're lunatics in their own way um but you get to see how the things that they become these complex characters and you get to see how a lot of the traits that are in them manifest in their daughter who is wild but also so good yeah with such a big heart and so brave yeah she hugs she hugs the crusty harpy i know what a good girl i know oh speaking of touching touching creatures um to touch another demon is a huge taboo. That was an interesting passage, right? Yeah.

Especially with, right now, with the general oblation board and what they're doing to children and they're tearing demons from them and how that's, like, fucked up. It's utterly forbidden. You don't just touch another's demon, let alone put it in a cage

and slice it away from the child. Wow. But also, it's huge foreshadowing that pan lets will touch him and yeah that lyra eventually ends up okay with it too like that's very special that's a special connection you don't just let anyone touch your soul yeah it's probably the most intimate someone can be and And especially that Pan initiates. Like, how forward. Pan. Chill.

Pan's so thirsty. Well, yeah, I mean, but that's her soul. Lyra's thirsty. That's true. Exactly. But yeah, yeah, there's definitely something interesting going on there, and I'll touch on it again a little in the Dusty Recursion, but alright, so everyone, now it is the Dusty Recursion. I've kicked Chloe interesting going on there and i'll touch on it again a little in the dustier cushion but all

right so everyone now it is the dustier cushion i've kicked chloe off i do it for her you know and i want to come back to the alethiometer again in the way that lyra reads it there's that line when she first begins to understand she found that she could sink more and more readily into the calm state in which the symbol meanings clarified themselves and those great mountain ranges touched by sunlight emerged into vision. the same way, right? With those great mountain ranges, suddenly it feels like sunlight illuminating them earlier on, and it really evokes a sense of discovery and illumination

by talking about it through sunlight, instead of just saying that, oh, she felt like she saw something, right? And it's punctuated with one of the lantern slides in the vignettes that Pullman adds to the end of the books, each book.

There's one at the end of the amber spyglass that gives us a scene of Lyra at age 18, learning to read the alethiometer. And intentionally, I'll read it aloud here. Lyra, 18, sitting in tent and absorbed in Duke Humphrey's library with alethiometer and a pile of leather-bound books. Tucking the hair behind her ears, pencil in mouth, finger moving down a list of symbols, Penteleimon holding the stiff old pages but open for her. Look, Pan, there's a pattern there. See, that's why they're in that sequence. And it felt as if the sun had come out. It was the second thing she said to Will next day in the botanic garden. So I think there's just a lot of really great consistency in the visual language that Pullman is using. But it also comes back to that machine, again, the cave that Mary Malone uses. And how Lyra is seeing this meaning with more consciousness as she grows older.

Because I think part of it is, you know, that sunlight that's used to talk about finding that true meaning. It plays a little into how it feels when one exits the cave in Plato's allegory. And of course, that's why the machine is called that. It's explicitly referencing Plato's cave. And then in that lantern slide is Lyra. Has to, of course, relearn to read the alethiometer as a child. She's doing it by grace right now as i said in the books and she has to understand how to do it intentionally some people have stated that libra losing this

ability might be analogous to i think it's i want to say it's chomsky's theory of linguistic acquisition and that certain stages right of when toddlers can naturally acquire language though obviously this is much more aged up. And as pointed out on the forum Bridge to the Stars, user Kyrelian says, this is actually kind of strange because if Lyra has to relearn the alethiometer's language of pictures as a second language, because after all, nobody really loses their ability to speak natively learned languages in that same way. You usually retain and ideally deepen them. And no one's like better necessarily at a second learned language than they are in their native tongue a lot of the time. So there's some mixed metaphors. But I think

there could be an aspect of it in that deeper understanding of language, as Lyra is told, that she will actually read the alethiometer better when studying it consciously. And I wonder if this has to do with like, you know, a lot of us here we know and speak English, but we, if we're native English speakers, couldn't necessarily explain its grammatical structure to many people. For example, when I was studying and learning Spanish and French, you learn things like the subjunctive or like the conditional way of talking and structuring words and language. And these actually do exist in English, but we only know them unconsciously. We don't define how the language necessarily works. Like I never say, oh yeah, we're using the conditional tense

or the subjunctive tense a lot of the time when speaking, because we don't learn it consciously in the way we do other languages. So there's a part of me that thinks this would be useful if we had. There's utility in knowing what form a word is taking and being able to analyze its meaning and how it performs in certain contexts. And maybe I think that's what's at play here with having to relearn the alethiometer. But anyway, one last thing. Farticorum's demon.

We were talking about it. Lyra admires its autumnal colors and longs to touch the cat's shifting colored fur. It's not just Pan who touches Will. Later on, Lyra will touch Will's demon. I've cracked a little bit into La Belle Sauvage, and we'll obviously come back to it a little more later as I make my way through the book. But there's this really fun snippet that says, you know, of Lyra seeing Fardercorum and feeling the same way about his demon 10 years after the events in this book. So she should probably be, I don't know, around 21. But it also makes me think that there's something here between Fardercorum and Will, because Lyra, upon first meeting Will, thinks of all these other characters that she reminds her of. We talked

about it a little bit with Yorick last time. And Will's demon, Kerjava, ends up settling upon the form of a cat as well, with a beautiful coat of shifting colors, much like Sophanax. They're the same ones as Sophanax, right? Because his cat's coat resembles the subtle knife's colors, as opposed to autumnal ones. But it's an interesting connection between these figures and Lyra's life which she ends up being drawn to. And yeah, I think that's it. That's it for me for now. Alright.

I'm back. Hello. Time to clean ourselves off. Getting a little dusty. We got too dusty. Got too dusty. I got a little too dusty. Especially in that dustier cushion. I know.

Well, I can't wait to finally hear this someday and hear, you know, hear what you're talking about. All right, everyone. Well, thanks for tuning in for our third episode. I'm a little dusted out at this point. I know. Time to go get clean. Time to go cut ourselves off. Oh my god.

You guys, thank you so much for listening to another episode of His Dark Materials with Girls Gone Canon. This was our third episode. We'll be back for episode four. Before you know it, stay tuned and look for that in the places where you get your podcasts. Yep. And of course, we are trying to finish reading these books before the first season of His Dark Materials comes out. So stay tuned over on Twitter on Girls Gone Canon.

Or maybe you want to tell us something, right? You can shoot us a tweet or you can message us on girlsgonecanon at gmail.com. Just like our friend Tana did. And we do have a Patreon, you guys. You can check out our Patreon at patreon.com just like our friend tana did and we do have a patreon you guys you can check out our patreon at patreon.com slash girls gone canon uh we will eventually start incorporating some his dark material-esque tears into there so stay tuned for that yep and of course again stay tuned for whenever we have new episodes coming out you can find us on google play on itunes on podbean on acast on stitcher on spotify and on overcast as always i have been

one of your hosts chloe and i have been another one of your hosts eliana thanks guys bye