Girls Gone Canon Cast - His Dark Materials Series 2 Episode 5 - The Scholar

Episode Date: December 15, 2020

Will and Lyra hatch a plan to steal back the alethiometer only to run into a surprise villain: Lyra's own mother, Mrs. Coulter. Marisa faces her demons as she reveals secret skills and learns that in another world, she could have been successful on her own.  Upcoming Guests: Cam/Candid59:https://twitter.com/candid59 The Dust Podcast: Twitter: https://twitter.com/thedustpodcast       Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-dust-a-his-dark-materials-podcast/id1466312718  --- Eliana's twitter: https://twitter.com/arhythmetric Eliana's reddit account: https://www.reddit.com/user/glass_table_girl Eliana's blog: https://themanyfacedblog.wordpress.com/ Chloe's twitter: https://twitter.com/liesandarbor Chloe's blog: www.liesandarborgold.com Intro: Waltz Of The Skeleton Keys by WombatNoisesAudio | https://soundcloud.com/user-734462061

🎵 Hello, and welcome to Girls Gone Canon Watches His Dark Materials Series 2, Episode 5, The Scholar. I am one of your hosts, Chloe. And I am another one of your hosts, Eliana. And welcome to, oh my god, this episode was so good. This was, I know that a couple weeks ago I was kind of a, I was kind of a sore thumb. Okay, I know, I was a wet blanket, it was not fun to be around during the third episode, so thanks for sticking around with me, but last week, episode four was killer. Episode five, mind-blowing. It was inventive. They made

stuff up that rocked out of good book content. Mind-blowing. And I know next week's gonna be even better. And the week after that, the finale is only two weeks. Ah, it's gonna be better. Especially because we're gonna have one of our really good friends on with us i'm excited about this our friend cam candid 59 is coming on the podcast for the series finale of his dark materials series two isa hera and cam you might know cam from twitter where twitter or tumblr actually where they are just always being funny and saying funny things about the episodes spoiling me sometimes but saying funny things about the episodes uh it's my fault I have to get offline you know yeah I'm excited I'm also super excited

I mean I always look forward to Cam's takes after the episode and you know in due time right because as you said sometimes but. Right. But. But. She's so funny. And I'm so excited to have her on. And. She's. She's such a.

Great fan of these books. And knows it really well. And she's the one who actually. Told us. That great insight. That we're going to come back to later. This episode about. Multicolored. Meaning.

Kajava. In Finnish. And Kajavaava being Will's demon later on, so super excited, and again, we're going to come back to that in a bit, but she's not the only guest that we're going to have about His Dark Materials

this month. We are also, for our Patreon episode, for patrons $5 and up, StrangerTier and above, are going to have The Dust Podcast. Matt and Holly talking about the music of His Dark MaterialsangerTier and above are going to have the Dust Podcast. Matt and Holly talking about the music of His Dark Materials with us, and they are just experts on this and I'm so excited.

This is going to be a really cool episode. It's going to be a little hodgepodge, right? We have a little bit of this, a little bit of that going on. There might even be a fun customized playlist for you all, a little mixtape for you all. I'm excited about that. Yeah, some goodies, a fun customized playlist for you all little mixtape for you all so i'm excited about that yeah some goodies a gift from us to you i am excited about that and it's not the only exciting thing going on in the his dark materials world because the other day

eliana me i did nothing i did nothing yeah did nothing. But I just like saying your name sometimes. It makes me feel good. Eliana, I got to listen to Philip Pullman talk while I had lunch the other day at work. Oh. Isn't that luxurious? Is it? I just, I think it is, you know, while he's sitting at his desk. I mean, I just feel so blessed. I get all this great insight.

We have great insights from Candid59. We have good insights from the Dust podcast coming our way. And Pullman. But a little insider info Pullman gave us all. He answered a question that I asked. And this is going to be a two-part explanation that I'm going to start now and finish later. So you have to listen to the podcast now. Gotcha.

But Pullman said he's releasing a physical copy of The Collectors one of his novellas that was previously only available as audiobook narrated by Bill Nighy or as an ebook form uh and it's going to be released physical with some slight changes from its original version so be on the lookout for more news about that yeah i actually haven't read this yet so i'm pretty excited and i know that as you said you're going to talk about it a little later on and sorry if i gave a quick spoiler at the top of this episode but in terms of our historic materials television show coverage you know our spoiler scope is a little different from our coverage of the books

and of how we do things in general with other stuff like labelle sauvage so because the show has brilliantly been playing things fast and loose with uh what they're drawing from throughout the main three books of his dark materials we are going to be talking spoilers from all three of the books of northern lights the golden compass the subtle knife and the amber spyglass we might do some very very very light hints the lightest dusting of things from the books of dust but nothing that will i think ruin anyone's experience and nothing that gives too much away especially because i myself am not completely finished with everything either.

And we are going to talk a little bit about some of the novellas. But again, the novellas are, I think, very, very light. And nothing, I think, will ruin your experience again. And besides, the show has kind of spoiled some of the big parts for all of you anyway. Yeah, the important stuff's out there. So no worries. And we'll warn you when we talk about them. Yes. Well, let's dive in eliana

i gotta know favorite part of the episode well as with every week i think i kind of have more than one but i know for sure what my one favorite part is this week and my partner was just so confused because i was screaming when this came up and I was just so excited that I kind of already shared it on Twitter also already. It is the scene that just seems totally, totally nondescript, right? Will is standing in the doorway, his back to it, and he's like got his arm out a little at this weird angle. It's not that weird. And it's just like his silhouette. it's not that weird and it's just like his silhouette and i was just so astounded because i think that we talk about it every week and i actually think that i want to credit our friend

tana and during our coverage of series one for bringing attention to like the way that will's house was structured and then you know we kept realizing that boreal was framed through those windows and they just have done such a great job with the visual storytelling in His Dark Materials. Because that scene of Will in the doorway in episode 5 is pretty much an exact recreation of Joppery from episode 4. As his hand is out and rubbing rubbing the ring summoning lee and it's just such a great way to show that relationship between father and son having not met but that idea of like will is going to take up his father's mantle and it's just so wonderfully and smartly done to talk about it through that imagery that's really beautiful and i know we really focused on that door frame last time that has those lines coming together where

joffrey was and i feel like that might be where we're heading since we know they're going to meet soon enough so it's nice that they're connecting it through different doorways right yeah and i mean they're standing at the edge of the worlds doorways are such a big part of both of their stories. And like in the books, right? Will's just so excited when he's reading. He's like, Oh my god, my dad used the same language that I did to describe what he found in terms of those windows. So both of them there and I remember thinking that Joppery was standing really weird for summoning Lee or for anyone standing in a doorway. I was like, why is he standing like that? And like, it's such a very conspicuous posture because it's calling out that this is going to mirror Will's posture later.

It's so great. And part of me wonders, like, we know, sadly and tragically, that Jobry's going to die right in front of his son, Will. But just laying it on there. I'm going to glaze past it so that we don't have to feel too sad yet you know we're gonna really give it its time when it happens but like is will going to put on his father's jacket right he does at the end of the subtle knife book and i'm like is he gonna put on that like cool pattern denim jacket. I'm filing for podcast divorce. What?

You hurt me. You keep hurting me. It's hurtful, but it's also fashionable. Any other insights from the Heartbreak Gallery? Well, the other favorite scene that I had was also, I think, kind of emotional. It was when Will and Lyra have a heart-to-heart and I'll talk about that more later.

But we'll just keep it with a doorway for now. How about you, Chloe? What was your favorite part of the episode? Hmm. Strike two. Interesting. Me, stabbing. The knife? In the words of

McPhail, like a knife! My favorite part of the episode, I don't know, maybe this is lame, but the title? The fact this episode was kind of a misnomer, how it was titled. You think about Lyra's scholar, the scholar, you think about Mary Malone immediately, but then this episode becomes this whole mini-sode into Marisa's psyche. It encompasses her completely. These two women with these two stories woven between these worlds. One world offers freedom at this price of consumerism and capitalism, and the other world is offering blind faith, something for people to believe in, a way to fill that god-shaped hole

in evolution, and something to rely on that feels solid and real while restricting, you know, the height of the ceiling for its members. These two worlds being juxtaposed aren't necessarily like, this world is right or this world is wrong. It's not that, it's that there's an imbalance between the two, and that's embroiled in these two ambitious and bright women we watch marisa and mary confront so many things that have torn them down over their life in this episode right marisa's framework in in general is kind of confronted it's faced head on this week the very framework that has constructed this villain both women are kind of painted to us

in different ways marisa is painted in shadows right like a martyr and mary is painted in light like a saint uh interesting and mary is the one speaking with the angels so i think yeah i think it's an unorthodox way no pun intended to come at her favorite part of the episode, but I think that's a really great point. And I think that sometimes we'll see chapter titles, even within the books, kind of play with the meaning of that title. So I think that's really interesting, and I think you're going gonna expand on that as we go through the episode so let's just dive in you know we open up on will's world and the monkey is seat belted in mrs coulter's gazing out of the car window watching a woman rock her baby in a stroller while working at a laptop in a cafe i remember when we used to do that

um yeah back in the day back before the covid back in the olden days it was the most adorable thing ever i i'm gonna open up and be vulnerable on the podcast once in a while i do this lately uh and i'm in the malice defense squad the monkey defense squad not like not completely sometimes he's still an asshole but but like i just it's an extension of marisa and if you don't understand why her demon acts this way and then how she treats her demon i find that very interesting yeah and i mean it's not our fault right the monkeys just also super cute in general little golden monkeys are objectively cute in real life and the team has just made a lot of the demons very cute and i will be taking absolutely

no blame for this like father mcfeel's lizard it's very cute and that's just not my fault the lemur the lemur the lemur uh that's right also monkey-esque not exactly a monkey but very cute not a good person tied to it so it's interesting stuff and yes malice has elicited i think a lot of compassion from us this season and we'll talk about it a bit boreal though brings marisa hot brown energy potion there's a lot of coffee in this episode, too. And they discuss how odd and barbaric the world is. He says that the government here is twice as corrupt as the Magisterium, but it's that they have a culture of consumerism, not faith.

I love that he opens this episode with, I don't know, almost a hypocritical critique of this world. He's a faithful agent of the magisterium. He's two-timing that world with this world of consumerism that, sorry, Boreal, you're actively participating in it. And obviously, okay, Boreal's the kind of guy that would tip nine cents and like write on his receipt, you should have smiled more. You know, like he's definitely that guy and also steal ancient relics but he criticizes the world that has let him create this fortune and rise up arian bakar on twitter arian 69 on twitter 69 that's important nice has developed his portrayal

of boreal in an exceptional way in the show i think uh it's a much more interesting and complex portrayal compared to the book version his adaptation of carlo makes me think that boreal may have experienced discrimination while rising in the ranks of the magisterium let alone in many other facets of his life and that tracks with the magisterium and what we're seeing in this episode that coulter andoreal's world consistently takes opportunities and chances away from them. It's highlighted throughout the scholar particularly well with Marisa gazing at that woman and her daughter. And then, of course, Boreal's attempts to covet beautiful, magical things like the alethiometer and the knife and Marisa. and the knife and Marisa. His disdain for this world of consumerism paints a picture of him succeeding in this world, not being equal to succeeding in the magisterium world. That's

likely what he wants. He wants to be able to say, look what I collected, look what I did. But this world and this magisterium, we know they have similar Bible passages to ours, right? And in Matthew 6, 24, we can feel that split. No one can serve two masters for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God in money. And I feel like that rings pretty true for both Boreal and Marisa. Oh, interesting. It does kind of ring true for both boreal and melissa oh interesting it does kind of ring true for both of them and i mean boreal does try right and you talked about the racial discrimination he might have faced in the magisterium and i mean that absolutely that absolutely exists in our world as well you know

and so it's interesting that you know what i find so captivating about this portrayal of boreal versus in the books is also just like you really get a sense of how he's been able to build power in both worlds right he's somehow been able to play the game in both worlds right the one on faith we know he's a high-ranking magisterium person granted he's probably done it by a corruption and he's done the same here right he's very good at that he's got the snake demon thing going on and he's done it here through that culture of consumerism and it's absolutely hypocritical for boreal to be the one making this sort of condemnation of will's world because he's like incredibly bought into this consumerist system like that's the whole thing and mrs coulter calls him out on it later but i think that what's interesting about the show in general is they raise these questions because like it's an

interesting question regardless of whether it's coming from boreal or not right that idea that of a faithless society and i'm not saying that boreal or not right that idea that of a faithless society and i'm not saying that people should be religious but the idea that there's a lack of spirituality in the culture so i thought it was a really really interesting insight from him yeah absolutely uh when you think about it very severed from society right the technology especially leaves us very severed from society i mean isolated what have we been doing for the past year aliana but at the same time society has kept us together via technology whoa well there you go it's that imbalance between the two boom got him it's the

pharmacon anyway will examines the knife he practices opening a window with it but fails throwing it and it goes straight in the wall so dangerous last time we saw will making windows with jacomo and lyra he was standing in those rooms in the tower that have such beautiful symmetry we talked about right this time as he fails to make this window the little shack he and live are hanging out in uh it's so uneven it's a very yeah it's a love shack baby it's uneven though like there's no symmetry in the room everything is kind of in disarray behind him there's no no yin yang you know so i thought that was interesting how they had their set decorated for that and his failure yeah and i think the yin and yang stuff that

you've been calling out has been really interesting in terms of um that balance uh this is that visual storytelling yeah and they do it well here as well uh where will and lyra really show how coordinated they are with one another how they're just starting to like really mesh and this was actually in the running for one of my favorite scenes but it didn't make it because i felt like having more than two was not okay where will and lyra right they're just so coordinated in like moving everything and shoving it aside as they draw their plans up on the little table which

like I imagine this is how football games work but I don't actually know either football depending on which side of the pond you're on I assume this is how sports works in general and it was so cute yeah and it was sweet to see them kind of work together throughout the whole episode not just

here yeah especially because he's nervous it's very obvious he's nervous he's worried that he'll choke when he gets there you know like palms are sweaty mom's spaghetti that does come up kind of in a way, this episode. And, you know, before all that happens, though, Boyle takes Mrs. Coulter home to his home. He's trying to impress Marisa with the home that he's bought from the profits of the Muscovite collection. And all of these fancy baubles illustrating a really interesting practice, right? Chloe, do you want to define this practice for us? Interesting practice, right? Chloe, do you want to define this practice for us? Oh, yeah, this is a great one. This is some culture I really am excited to teach, especially I know we have some UK friends or some friends in Canada that might not understand the United States of America or any other countries. ages uh and other other cultures participate but you you take artifacts without paying for them or by paying very little money for them and then you profit off of them greatly in your own country uh sometimes it's stealing sometimes it's paying nothing for you know it just depends sometimes it's bribing people and extorting them it's really a cultural phenomenon you have to experience it sometime but that is what's happening here he says to marisa and he's very he's like bragging about this right he's like oh you know i totally ripped them off and she's

like yeah okay that's great i don't care it's not about lyra so i do not care and he goes into the storage system to get out his lyra fate right and he brings out the alethiometer and he goes into the storage system to get out his Lyra fate and he brings out the alethiometer and he informs her they can watch her on CCTV yeah finally those latcams come into play what is this? and I will say, yes it's an interesting

practice in the US but the British also did it too sorry not sorry some of the things that Boreal uses to exemplify his own little trade feels like a cute nod to some of the current events in the series right like he's saying that he got this

artifact from Nova Zembla that he's so proud of and it's where of course Lee ended up and where the Samirsky Hotel is and also I believe I couldn't find it because I'm a dingus, and also I didn't try that hard to find it, but

regardless, in Arin's Twitter Q&A, I believe he actually tells us that somewhere in Boreal's collection, there is an amber spyglass. Yeah, I saw that, and I wanted to say I think he said it was in a bookshelf or something. I need to go look now.

Now I'm curious. I tried. It wasn't easy and it could just be me. I'll check it out. I bet I can find it. I'll look next time. There's also a stolen Vermeer piece from the Isabella Gardner Museum

from 1990. Author Tracy Chevalier noticed on Twitter that it's in this scene. What a good call-out. I'm glad it was found. You know, here. Here in Will's world. This is Boreal's MTV Cribs. Eliana, this is... He's like, welcome to my cribs. It's definitely something.

And they enter his house, and there is something beautiful that I was very surprised about. From the commercials, trailers, previews, it's been interesting to piece together different parts of his house here. And when they enter his house, the front door is this gorgeous stained window, stained glass, lots of line work. The main windows have these yellow hexagons,

and it reminds me of like honey and lightness and sweetness and fruit of effort the entryway is much brighter less flashy more open and it kind of to me signifies his vulnerability in this episode right because he is opening up a little bit in this episode a lot of character development happening because you know that's what happens before someone dies on a TV show. And he quite literally lets Marisa into his house. Like, if he was a vampire, he would not be let into her house. But little vampire Marisa, she's let in. Here she is.

Immediately, though, he locks the security system once he has her inside, signifying she's a treasure. Right? Like, she is one of the collectibles as she later says and then he descends down into his evil lair which is his basement of collectibles and she's skeptical it's very obvious as you go along the tone increases she's playing with her food pretending to drop his artifacts you know he's pompous he doesn't realize that marisa is smarter than she lets on let alone much smarter than him. To Marisa, like she knew walking into this, there's no way this is what I want. This man is a trap.

And just like Lyra, Marisa does not get stuck in traps often. It's sad, kind of at the core. I feel sad, I think, for Carlo. Is that an emotion I feel? Because he's getting played by this ambitious maybe evil some may say this is a subjective opinion uh no i'm just kidding she's bad she's not great uh his achilles heel you know he's getting played by her and it turns out it's not like he wanted world domination as we learned in this episode he's not really a reacher he is just kind of a

shitty guy who stole some artifacts to have a nice house and he wants to wife up marisa coulter but he's sacrificing her ambitions and her emotions in the process i don't even know if he's sacrificing he just like straight up hasn't even considered it and and that gets pointed out throughout this episode it's funny because as you said she does turn the tables in terms of the power dynamic because i remember at first when he was like locking the doors i was like that's creepy that's weird uh locking someone into your own home but i love that you called out the stained glass windows and then of course we get boreal's very very different aesthetic in his treasure basement

and it feels very much like those two sides of him right like in the magisterium the part that everyone knows those stained glass windows kind of harken to that church like imagery than the but here he listens to the lighthouse family yeah here he listens to the lighthouse family

and to probably helicopters just like I do and you know has all those windows in his basement about his double life. Well, speaking about double life, we have Will and

Lyra. They're practicing opening windows. Lyra's encouraging Will, and he confidently is able to blast open a window. They have a really cute scene where they run around opening windows, and also closing windows. And they discover that Boreal's house is exactly overlaid on the

Tori Dele Anderle, speaking of Boreal's house. And they decide to wait until it's dark to try to break in, like any good break in, to be honest. Yeah, I mean, you'd have to wait until it's dark, I hear, because TV said so. Well well i've actually heard that it's better to do it in the daytime when people are at work this is a cute scene this is

like adorable scene uh they got excited because he does it and she's like why are we whispering and he's like i don't know i love that they're just running around opening closing windows learning things together experiencing things figuring things out it's so cute and of course we have our panda which makes it all the more much enjoyable yes uh they're really really just digging into the red panda pan and every time it's actually still a joy and he's still just so poofy things that are not poofy a little poofy depending i wanted to do a fashion hour about lira's clothes which i thought were really interesting and you know in the previous

episode she was wearing this like white sweater with this really adorable stitching in these um around the collar of it right that were kind of different colors but it felt like we called it out last time of uh felt like these lines right converging but also reminding us of the lines on the the cave screen and this time she's wearing a blue romper, jumpsuit, jumper, depending on which terminology you want to use to describe fashion. And there's all these little stitching of different colors around the collar again. So we have that, and it feels like that little multicolored nod once more. Again, regarding Kershavajava will's demon we talked before about her poncho and then she's also wearing she cinched her blue so she's back in lyra blue

jumpsuit with this little belt that looks like it has a rose pattern on it very eden and very uh why does she have kerjava on her neck that's inappropriate that's taboo that's i mean that's part of the romance as candid 59 says love is touching souls and as boreal says love is trying to romance marisa with the lighthouse family ah yes he has this beautiful couch new speakers but she's like i don't fucking care uh she's unimpressed she's on the other side of the couch like as far away from him as she could be he tries to entice her with another gift since that one does not stick and he's like do you want your own research department honey i'll buy you one and he talks about malone this woman who runs the college department and marisa's like whoa you

buried the lead a woman who runs her own department and he's like oh it's a little different here she's like i have to go immediately and he tries to slow her down, but she pulls that whole caring mom card about Lyra's education with dust. Boreal thinks, well, your clothing's too conspicuous. And conveniently, he's like, welcome to this room full of clothing that will fit you. And she chooses some jeans and this very sexy magenta blouse, and she's like, please leave the room while I change. You're right. Why do all the clothes fit her kind of that's what i'm saying is i'm like boreal's worst crime is that he was the level 10 clinger he was okay i didn't even

think about that i'm like why do the clothes why does he have all these clothes interesting and okay this is just my personal opinion i don't think she would have stood out in a bad way if she wore that outfit i think she would have stood out in a way that i would have like watched that woman going down the street and been like wow what energy i want to be that but i would have like popped over my phone and taped her in bed like wow what a woman uh like that's what i aspire to i know personally i just want to that hat and that skirt. The hat. The hat is like that hair under that hat. But that's okay because she still looks... I know this isn't...

You and I have been discussing this isn't your favorite outfit of hers, but I think it's like a sexy, slick outfit. It's not Mrs. Coulter. It's Marisa. I just like the outfit before it more than the one before she changed. It was so sleek, so great. So sleek. There's something about the scene, though, where Boreal is advising

Risa on what she can wear in this role and what she can't. That feels kind of like a sinister, topsy-turvy version of Will and Lyra's interactions. Again, how Will was like, you can't just go around in like a multi-colored poncho and lyra's like of course i can and it's a really interesting dynamic this isn't the only time that i get that feeling throughout this episode i didn't really consider that but even now when you go back to like him taking her through the window uh obviously and all the the world traveling i also love that later when she tells lyra don't trust this boy and it's similar to how she treated lyra's relationship with roger in the show uh kind

of dismissive and just like disregarding of it and when lyra was at her house she made pan turn away too remember oh yeah uh and it's almost like this coulter you know conceal don't feel don't let them show let no one in obviously not even herself as we see later yeah well coming back to what she chooses to wear right mrs coulter and the monkey they gaze into the mirror seeing how they must change they look in the mirror a lot throughout this episode yes like seeing another them them in a world that could have been. Her demon gone, right? When she shuts it away, like the people of this world that don't have their demons out all the time,

she can shut her shame away, and so she does. And speaking of her shame, he offers her these jeans. This might be my other favorite scene. If I had a favorite scene, this is the favorite scene. She straight up holds these jeans up with the tippy tip of her fingers out like they're the most disgusting things in the world. It's hysterical. Funniest thing. Funniest thing.

Yeah, I thought that was kind of funny. I thought she was going to wear the jeans and I should have known better. I thought she was going to do it. But I mean, Lyra would have done it. And she, in fact, as we know, again, if we go back to that jumpsuit, that jumpsuit kind of looks like it's almost all denim. Or like a lighter denim fabric. So it's an interesting contrast. Other things that are interesting contrasts is this world of faith.

The Magisterium Boys talk shop. Father Graves has many ideas in the meeting. He challenges Cardinal Macphail to find Marissa Coulter, the last of the people who would support Asriel's heretic work. She has disappeared! He also suggests that they make a public announcement about the anomaly being fake, but the Cardinal disagrees, because he thinks that this would just cause mistrust from the people, because literally everyone can see it. And they're interrupted by a message that witches have retaliated and killed 24 of their men many suggestions are thrown in add more troops make a decision so he does he decides you know

father graves disloyalty is the reason that everything is going wrong really interesting rationale there and decides to punish him and ship him off to the dungeon cardinal mcphail stops fra pavel on his way out and then asks him where she's gone on his alethiometer he's like who who whoops and then he's he's like oh her her it's very funny very funny great way to have a cardinal in waiting huh downstairs in the dungeons right i thought that was interesting i think that's a good setup if uh mcphail does become the gomez character i think it could happen i'm prepared to be wrong in 2021 but i don't know it just hasn't ever happened before so we'll see this puts graves in jail and if something goes wrong

like the bomb then uh they can blame it on mcphail and can go rogue like Gomez. Yeah, I think it's interesting. You know, I feel like, as you said, there's another one in waiting and, you know, maybe like drastic measures such as these and their failure. Right. And just taking it out on other people that folks might support could cause the tides to turn on him. And I wonder if it's like he's asking, you know, what is that? What is the valuable thing that Mrs. Coulter is looking for? Right. And then he finds out it's Lyra and that like is an incentive for him to try and target her for like, or like go on like this mad, crazy quest to try and take her out. Like, as you said, like the Father Gomez character. Because like Father Gomez wasn't like all there. character um because like father gomez wasn't like all there yeah he was obviously in the end he was kind of off his rocker and uh it increases as it goes right like it starts off as just magisterium work but then it crosses the line and is disavowed and etc and that's kind of what's going on like we're seeing mcphail make all these big choices of bomb the witches do this a man of actions marisa sad

remember and uh that's gonna be his biggest action when the bomb fails later and i guess season three the bomb fails and he's to blame he pushed all of it saying this was like their thing i wonder how they're even gonna know like i mean obviously they'll know it fails because flara will still be alive but they won't really sense. Yeah, the sin is going to gather. Yeah, but they're not really going to sense the huge hole in the underworld until later, right? Right. It's interesting.

Another really interesting thing is that top-down shot we got of the table. The men are sitting in a hexagonal shape, just like the tiling of the windows at Boreal's. I thought that was an interesting visual connection between the two plots. And there's a lot of demons in this shot, which was fun. It was just fun to see the spiders scuttling around, the lizard being cute. You know, fun to see. It was, it was. And again, some of them are strangely cute.

They are. It's not my fault. Things that are cute but sad are the next one where Marisa shuts her demon away, right? She flips the power on Boreal as well, tells him to wait for Lyra while she takes care of her big girl things. And Boreal's just, like, shocked at her ability to shut her demon away and she tells him surely i'm not the first woman you've witnessed capable of self-control have you never encountered witches on your travels yeah what question mark interesting interesting i mean it's interesting that they also assume that many people have encountered witches, right? Yeah, that's true, too.

And at the same time, it was also her kind of, you know, fluffing him up. Oh, you're such a big man, haven't you met witches in all of your crazy travels between the worlds? Men want to be nagged. I mean, every... Yeah, they do. Men do love being nagged in this story by Marisa Coulter. But every other man that's gone through the worlds, Asriel, Jopy they fucked witches so what about you boreal yeah she's like haven't you ever fucked a witch all these men that you are jealous of have that's that's what he's all like

she's all like over him just looking straight into his eyes going guess you never will wow wow got him well okay she then takes the keys to his car and she's like you can stay here i won't be long uh and her demon is shot in the bedroom squeaking whining watching from the window i have a lot of thoughts about this first thought a wise poet nicki minaj once said keys to the bends keys to the bends motherfucking right yeah we did the 10 so is that right I think that's what

Phil Pullman was referencing I think it is I think so I think I just wanted to make sure it was either that or it was John Milton second off once upon a time I'm just gonna brag for a second I just I can't help it once upon a time in our second His Dark Materials episode of all time, Northern Lights chapters four through six,

I sang a little ditty. It went like this. Weird that Mrs. Coulter has a metallic scent when she gets angry. It kind of reminds me of the intercision machine at Bullvanker. Do you think this is connected? Like, maybe there's something related to this because Lyra was upset, Eliana, about her demon being so far away from her

Coulter's demon, thinking there was something weird about it? You know, I said these words, and no one listened. You didn't believe me. No one listened to me. Well, everyone, Chloe was right. Mrs. Coulter can separate from her demon. i don't think she's severed though in the same way that they use the knife at both anger because like she's so

different from the people who have been severed i i wonder yeah and we're theorizing this over at our discord right now if you're a patron in our ten10 and above tier, you can get on in on the Discord action where we have lots of... Oh my god, our Discord channel for His Dark Materials TV spoilers moves a mile a minute. It's very fun. I have to sit it out sometimes when I'm waiting to watch the episode, but it's so worth it to catch up on all of it. But we're theorizing about it, and I might just talk about it in a little. I might. She might.

She might. theorizing about it and i might just talk about it in a little i might she might she might but before then we're gonna stop by mary malone's office where marisa enters and begins to just you know intrude and read the research on mary's desk while she's waiting which i mean i guess there's nothing else to do i mean there's a bunch of things to read honestly in that office on that desk alone i have spent so much time on it there are two books specifically we can see, right? There's the I Ching Classic of Changes, which we've spoken about before, and the Character of Consciousness by Chambers.

Basically, Character of Consciousness breaks down the consciousness meter, some basic understanding of metaphysics, and it uses the Garden of Eden as a model of perpetual experience. He explains that Eden may or may not have existed, it could just be fable and fairy tale, but the way that we regard the world is based off of how humans had perceived it at the time, and how things changed after two significant events. The first event being eating from the Tree of Illusion, which changed things from simply being like an apple is red,

to the visual experience no longer being contingent on the world right like many shades and also eating from the tree of science which complicates things and makes them no longer be just themselves eden and the fall one way or another was an ideal that basically he argues is how humans experience things. I found that very interesting, especially considering her bonsai tree, right, that sits on her desk symbolizing the harmony of things and feels representative of that tree of science as well as the nature to come from the Muleka world. That's really interesting. All those lines that you read aloud about experience and eating from the tree, especially as it ties into this book. And also the bonsai tree. I actually had thought that that just kind of meant like Mary, you know, likes plants and is good at cultivating and taking care of them, especially compared to Mrs. Coulter.

I like spent a bit of time when I saw this note of yours, like looking at Mrs. Coulter's apartment to see if she had any plants she doesn't really she has like some flowers and vases but some of them might actually be like flowers she's growing but she doesn't really nurture plants and I just say this because my partner has recently acquired like a bazillion plants and I'm not very good at taking care of them but I will try to love them as best I can you're a good stepmom of the plants Eliana you're doing great that is what I'm going to be

and you know it's funny that she can keep this little bonsai tree so cultivated compared to the rest of her she probably cuts that tree instead of sorting out her books which is a big mood while Mary comes back to her office to find this intruder marisa i i was interested that because it was a woman this time she puts her guard down just a tiny bit but she begins to talk about mary's work with her and mary like opens the door she's like i've had it get out no way don't let it hit you on your ass miss and marisa explains that she's looking for lyra and she

begins weaving a web of lies about this was a huge misunderstanding i wanted to apologize for her being such a nuisance in person and mary's like what what do you mean lyra that was the you're lyra's mom wow lyra was the most interesting kid i've ever met and more interesting than my nieces and nephews she's like i didn't say that but she thought it i like those nephews for the record those mewesley eating little shits i know they're like yeah whatever i want to eat i go to mary's house to eat sugar love it uh yeah i like that part uh that she was like mrs maloneone. And she goes, Dr. Malone. Poor Marisa. Oh, God. Mary earned this herself. Not under a man, sadly.

It was just her. Sorry, Marisa. Yeah, and I mean, there's obviously a hint of jealousy there, right? And Marisa tries to explain that she studies in the field of experimental theology, which surprises Mary. And she's asking if marisa has published any research and what her master's was in and i guess like maybe marisa would have said it but then she realizes shit if this isn't the field here and so then mary goes and does a thing that's very relatable right she's like let me make you some coffee and then as she's like trying to make coffee for mrs culture's like dirty cups sorry

just like fuck i feel called out i feel called out so good her with her dirty cups and her stale cookies we gotta hook that girl up you know gotta fix that yeah but marisa's gone by that and you know it could be because she was afraid of her cover being blown but it could also be that she was afraid of dirty cups which i mood that's probably happened to me too in this economy in this economy i love the where does theology meet matter and she's like where does it not and it's like the funniest joke in the world, because literally, where does it not? That's the theory being explored in this show, right? But it's the funniest joke to me. Funniest joke ever.

Yeah, I love it, because this is another one of those things, right? Just like how Lord Boreal says that thing about consumerism versus faith in regards to the culture. And this is another one of those really great questions. I like that the show just poses questions, right? It doesn't really try to answer them and it really just prompts thought. And I mean, it goes well together with Mary's earlier discussions with Oliver about the

role that faith plays in science. And even later on with her sister, this episode, and it makes sense, right? Cause for a good portion of human existence, right? Cause Mology and philosophy were so intertwined in how we understood, inquired about our world, our universe, our existence.

And it especially makes sense for someone coming from the magisterium where religion won out over secularism, especially in regards to matters of the state and public life. Theology would absolutely be ingrained in how we interrogate and discover the world around us, especially if we believe that the entire universe is derived from, like, the divine. And you see Miri really reconsidering things in that moment. She's not

just, like, baffled. She's like, that's an interesting philosophical thought. You see it on her face. And I mean, it makes sense also in terms of what she's studying, because she's studying dark matter she's having a hard-ass time trying to prove that this exists to anyone else everyone's like all right well then where's the girl where's the proof of your research and like if you can't show it to anyone else right it almost becomes this matter of faith like dark matter in real

life or even fantastical very difficult to prove uh dust and shadows of course is here and i mean you can't see it but you believe it's there and it's almost very theological in that sense yes it's the intersection where they meet after marisa bails mary decides to google marisa coulter experimental theology and she does not come up though an explanation on experimental theology does from the search interestingly enough uh they can't use google because of copyright so i believe painting practice is in charge of the art and media direction and they came up with their just slightly different google page right just barely different so that's so funny i mean i didn't even think about that i took it for granted that they were using the google page and

i just decided on google product placement i was like google sponsoring the show but i guess not i was too optimistic i think i read a tweet about it i'd have to go dig it up but i actually took the time to look at the page you know me and so the entire screen says first of all it has did you mean metaphysical experimental theology because it does not know marisa coulter and then it says missing marisa coulter under every entry but literally she's missing it's hyster hysterical. Another hysterical joke. They're killing me. The first page we get is from a Blogspot site, and it's clippings from Flannery O'Connor's The Violent Barret Away. My favorite epigraph from this novel, it's better than actually just what they had displayed, in my opinion,

but to sum up the novel, from the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence and the violent bear it away thought it was very fitting it is it is that is interesting i have to check this out i've only read flannery o'connor's short stories so to add this to my growing list i'm and i'm very interested and i think the person we have to thank for all of this is probably erica mckeewan because the next result is from reading.sagepub.uk and it's a bunch of filler theology text and it says in there that it's written by erica mckeewan which from an easy search she works in the art department of painting practice you know for his dark materials very fun i mean this is also relatable i would do that if

i were erica yeah i think it's very relatable yeah good for you she deserves it she she kicked ass on this because the last result that really means anything i actually it's probably my favorite result of them sorry erica but it's non-filler it's from after all dot online and it's a passage from experimental theology and religion by reverend samuel r calthrop in his berry street lecture in 1901 samuel r calthrop attended saint paul in london then trinity college at cambridge yes he started a boys' school in Connecticut, which was in a time where Darwin's theories was, it was considered heresy, right? You couldn't agree with it.

And he bucked convention and actually chose to agree with him publicly and said God gave him the ability to speak, and so he should. And, you know, an excerpt from this speech I find really interesting is, he speaks about experimental theology armed with all the great discoveries of science sees in evolution the eternal process whereby God builds his worlds, gives birth to his children, educates them, draws out the life that is in them, gives them ever increasing mastery over things and over their own God-given powers, thus causing them to grow forever and ever he

basically gives an explanation in this of god creating evolution and god and science existing coexisting in this world i thought that was very interesting and i just really liked uh seeing that as a mini a mini search result it feels like there was a lot of effort put in on that so i'm impressed yeah i think that's really really interesting um you know there's a couple of things going on here and you know for from the interplay between google as a as a mechanism for asking questions right very much like the alethiometer and as as we said, controversial. I mean, I do really like my smartphone. It's an engine that's built from science, along with the other enormous engine that's also scientific,

interacting with dust, angels, the divine, that relationship again between experimental theology and science slash quantum physics. It's telling that whenever Mary talks about her work, she uses the term quantum physics, even though she's talking with angels so funny the angels again like i just love that line they're describing the relationship with matter and science is from what we are spirit from what we do matter but in terms of that relationship between you know you're talking about experimental theology and evolution and science and this idea that they don't necessarily need to be contradictory i want to talk about this article that i read from michael gerson who is a former

speechwriter for george w bush during his white house years he's a neoconservative and worked for the heritage foundation and i disagree with him on a great many many things but he wrote this really fascinating thing um about maybe two years ago about the relationship between why so many evangelicals were tempted and and devoted for trump and i mean he disagrees with that and thinks that it's really bad. And, you know, he talks about why people perceive evangelicalism as regressive, and this shift that happened in American culture, especially around the time of the Civil War, because evangelicals used to be the ones pushing abolition. And we're pushing actually a lot of progressive policies in the united states until

the civil war changed their outlook on the united states in terms of making it more pessimistic after they saw this destruction changed like the mindset of evangelicalism from optimistic to pessimistic and then also a big part of it has to do with how the evolution debate played out and gerson is also very evangelical and a devout christian himself so i found his uh his views on these really interesting he talks about william jennings brian who was a huge christian leader at the time and how brian felt that the contest between evolution and christianity is a duel to the death, and that evolution would mean that Christianity would gradually degrade. And Gerson writes this, many people of his background believe this, but their resistance was futile for one incontrovertible reason. Evolution is a fact. It is objectively true based on overwhelming evidence. By denying this,

evangelicals made their entire view of reality suspect. They were insisting, in effect, that the Christian faith requires a flight from reason. Gerson goes on to say, This was foolish and unnecessary. There is no meaningful theological difference between creation by divine intervention and creation by natural selection. Both are consistent with belief in a purposeful universe and with serious interpretation of biblical texts. Evangelicals have placed an entirely superfluous stumbling block before their neighbors and children, encouraging every young person who loves science to reject Christianity. person who loves science to reject Christianity. And this next part I'm going to read just

for my own funsies, because I think it's also very interesting. Gerson asks, What if Brian and others of his generation had chosen to object to eugenics rather than evolution? To social Darwinism rather than Darwinism? The textbook at issue in the Scopes case, after all, was

titled A Civic Biology, and it urged sterilization for the mentally impaired. Epilepsy and feeble-mindedness, the text read, are handicaps which it is not only unfair but criminal to hand down to posterity. What if this had been the focus of Brian's objection? Mencken, doubtless, would still have mocked, but the moral and theological priorities of evangelical Christianity would have turned out differently, and evangelical fears would have been eventually justified by America's shameful history of eugenics, and by the more rigorous application of the practice abroad. Instead, Brian chose evolution, and in the end, the cause of human dignity was not served by the obscuring of human origins.

So I just thought that last part was interesting, and just wanted to throw in there as food for thought because the show gets to do it so i'm going to do it too and i just thought when you're talking about the evolution right it's so interesting here because gerson's saying like what's the difference if it's by divine intervention or natural selection because in a way in this book series right evolution happens by the intervention of the angels but as a cause or a result of their quest for vengeance against god yeah i mean free will free him free will man all this talk about evolution and the intersection of where faith and uh this experimental theology and science meets right right? Has awakened the cave.

It has woken the cave. The cave is up in Adam and the cave wakes up. Zephania out of nowhere is like, Mary Malone, you have to play the serpent. You have to make a journey that starts at Hornbeam. Deceive the guardian. Find the entrance. You'll be protected. Save the girl.

And boy, your work here is done we will not speak again in this world and then mary malone gathers her belongings and she goes save the cheerleaders save the world save the cheerleaders jesus i hope she does that's part of this whole series right jesus allegedly yes we move on to lil and lyra who get confronted by angelica and paula planning their attack on lord boreal's home lyra decides i'll do the talking you do the cutting but they get interrupted while chatting by sobs and gasps in the street because paula and angelica are sobbing at a despondent Tulio, and Angelica confronts them, blaming Tulio's state on them. did and you know of course what happens to tulio and what like is in store for the children of

chittagatse is super tragic i mean at least i think the safania and the angels like deal with the specters but what about the kids who like came of age during that time anyways um i do wish we had the bottle episode because i kind of wonder like how safe was tulio really you know there's something sad about the way that the harsh realities of his world caused him to develop in that he kind of already seemed a little bit off and eaten in a way, you know, besides the specters coming for him, like some sort of Lord of the Rings ship with the knife. Oh, that's a really interesting thought. I mean, it seems that there's something like that.

We talked about the forging being very Lord of the Rings-y as everyone noticed, but he who uses the knife for greed is no true bearer of the knife. Right? It's Tulio's not the chosen one, though he sought it. And it's sad because I think we'll probably get it in next episode, the resolution, right? The kids chasing

Lyra and Will, I'm guessing it has to happen in next episode, and we'll talk more on speculation later. But it's really sad because Tulio was the chosen one to this tribe of children, right? Like, it's not that he wasn't the chosen one for the knife. And it's sad because Will and Lyra are both bummed because they want to help these kids. But their task is supposed to be so much greater and more than just these 20 kids. But it's also horrible

to think that these handful of kids aren't important. So it's sad to me. He was their hope. Yeah, I mean, the kids weren't the nicest to them and also were beating up a cat, so I can see. I mean, it's to Will and Lyra's credit that they're still being nice to them. But I can understand if they were like,

no, these kids are whack. I mean, in the books, you kind of get that. I'm like no these kids are whack I mean in the books you kind of get that I'm like those kids are a lot anyway but Will's a good boy sitting holding his hand and feeling guilty Larry tells him though that the knife chose him he's the bearer

and Pan agrees saying that Tulio would have killed them all if they hadn't fought him I do kind of wonder if the connection between Will and Yorick has to do with him being the bearer, and the word bear, being in bearer. And I'm not sure if that's a shitpost thought or real, but I'm gonna pretend

it's real. I'm gonna tell you that you're unbearable. Oh! Damn! Are we both? Am I fired? Is she hired? I guess it evens out, right? It's that intersection of yin and yang. Cancels out. Mary is reading the Bible at home.

A particular passage, right? Something from Genesis. And her sister drops in. She's reading about the serpent. Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, did God really say you must not eat from any tree in the garden? But God did say you must not eat fruit

from the tree that is in the middle of the garden and you must not touch it or you will die. She tells her sister she's taking time off her research and that she was right earlier, right? Like I should take a break and so I'm gonna take a nice long trip. I thought it was so interesting that Mary's sister seeing the Bible on her table was all kind of like suspicious of it. It kind of makes me think, oh, was Mary's family not actually super supportive of her becoming a nun?

Or were they just like, what the fuck? Why is Mary becoming a nun? And like, all of this is just kind of a reminder. You know, all of the scene though in general reminds us about that experimental theology thing and shows just how cohesive i think some of these episodes have been with their themes you know it's nice to have a show that cares about themes and um mary's just like been on a search for understanding for answers for a long time you know again highlighting those comparisons between mary and marisa but mary wants to understand things not in order to necessarily i think

master them but just to learn yeah to learn and experience yeah life to live life well she wants to live them free will she wants to live them not just enslave ideas. Mm-hmm. Ah. Well, I think she's going on quite a nice trip. I hope she doesn't stay until the fall, if you know what I mean. Oh. But different fall. Different fall because night is also falling on Chittagotzi. Will is standing primed in Eliana's favorite stance, fingers out at doorway in Shinigatsi and they are ready to enact

their heist and plan yes I'm just standing here I feel like Elmo Gif with flames I'm like it's the scene so pleasing it is Will's wondering if Giacomo is still alive in the tower but Lyra tells him not to worry

about that just now he's dead but lyra's like being really understanding she's like we can't deal with this now push it down well she's like we gotta cut in get the alethiometer cut out that is the plan so they head to jacomo's basement rooms to be able to cut in yeah the window that will cuts in in shidagatse you can see the angel statues in the side of the tear of the window uh you can literally just see one you see the window see the world through the window and then in his world still in shidigatsi you can see balthamos and baruch watching them so symbolic oh yeah they do

have that throughout the tower and i kind of wonder like you know we were told we were gonna see them i wonder if we'll see like Baruch and Balthamo's I don't know next episode or something um you know protecting Mary that would be interesting right and yeah

that would be kind of cool and that like way they get introduced for longer this season and I mean the whole scene, right? That basement pen looks like an altar. You were talking about that symmetry earlier with the knife and the tower, so looks like that there.

Speaking of things reflected, Marisa returns. She's standing and staring at herself again in a mirror. Her demon's also staring at her. Ah, she's really into self reflection, looking at herself's also staring at her. Ah, she's really into self reflection, looking at herself there but not her demon. She is, though! She looks at herself

but not her demon. She's not really looking at herself, you know? I'm 14 and this is deep. Marisa ignores her demon, walks off to kick off her heels in the living room. Yes, she is seeing only what she wants to see, you're right. And this cut, though we usually don't like cuts in this series, this cut is great. Lyra and Will are entering Giacomo's basement while Marisa is then entering Boreal's. Yes. She's shaken. She tells him that she found Mary Malone impertinent, intelligent, free.

free. Boreal found her arrogant because he's a steaming pile of misogyny, as we know, but he doesn't find Marisa arrogant, interestingly enough. Marisa's like, I was top scores for all of my college work, but I was denied my doctorate by the Magisterium. If I wanted my research

published, I would have to let a man do it. And Boreal's like, I don't get it, babe. Sorry, sweetie. Don't get it, toots uh she asks if he knows who she could have been in this world and what he remembers of her scandal with asriel he remembers her being seduced by asriel and mistreated she finishes the tale with and he left me a grieving widow yes boreal is just like oh why are we talking about your ex i hate your ex and she corrects him and says we're talking about me and during this will and myra are cutting their

window boils within and he just leaves the very very expensive precious alethiometer on the couch and marisa also asks him why he thinks that he's the first person to travel to this world and he asks why not and then marisa runs her hands over his artifact saying that even if he was he doesn't deserve to be she says that this world is full of ideas our world is hungry for but you have spent your time trading trinkets and then So good. The way that Ruth is all just like, were you hoping to add me to your little pile of treasures? It's just so perfect impeccable and there's something really charming about that like trademark fucked up woman energy

that this plays everyone has had a toxic relationship where you're like oh i will digest you honey thoroughly like you will go through my whole system and out again uh his facade and control here dissipates he's reduced to a foolish man who didn't even consider that marisa can have ambitions what and thoughts god next thing you tell me they're gonna be like allowed out of the kitchen uh it's crazy but even if his want of marisa had been authentic right not filled with a little bit of toxicity. She's not looking to fill that God-sized hole, okay? Like, she's like, no, that's not what I'm missing.

I'm missing my daughter. Her brand of love is poison. She couldn't even fathom an authentic outreach of love right now that's not even on her radar. Yeah, but Boreal's like, but what about that man-sized hole? He's trying to fill that one. You're in the car 69. I'm about to get fired again. Earlier, we talked about The Collectors at the top of the episode.

So yes, let's chat about it. It's time. Let's talk about it. So Chloe, you discussed earlier that there's a short story that Philip Pullman is re-releasing The Collectors. Yeah, it's a 21-page novella taking place in 1970 in a college about two pieces of art. One is a painting of a fair-haired young woman who looks ambiguous, cold, disdainful, contentious, but also on fire, lost, hopeless, but sexy and yearning. You know, the male gaze. It's a strong picture, it's described as.

The other artwork is a foot-high golden monkey, sitting up with a hand reaching toward the viewer, the body tense, full of savage greed, brutality, but it's beautifully sculpted. Mysteriously, both of these items continue to turn up in the same collections over time, and they even get linked to some mysterious murders. This has been going on for like 70 to 80 years. Anyway, the guy who owns the painting shows it to his buddy, and the friend turns feral. He gets like mad about it, and he's like,

I know that woman, and he's like, no, you don't. This is like a 70-year-old painting. He's like mad about it. And he's like, I know that woman. And he's like, no, you don't. This is like a 70 year old painting. He's like, no, we were lovers. Her name was Marisa Van Zee. And I knew her when she was 18. She came from another world. I'm not telling you any more than that. You have to go read it.

It's 21 pages on ebook or listen to Bill Nighy narrate it for like a half hour. It's very good. But interestingly enough, fun fact, Pullman recently said in the Blackwell's event that Kate Bush, one of his very good friends, inspired this story. She had two pieces of artwork that came up and she told him about this story that they were artwork that kept coming in the same collection so he decided to make a story out of it so cool right really cool yes kate bush of the lyra the uh lyra the song thing that's that is just so wild to me like not the story the story is pretty cool but the part where Philip Pullman and Kate Bush are good friends and then she wrote

this song for him I mean, we all know the song and by we all I mean everyone who has watched the Golden Compass knows this song but it is just wild to me that Philip Pullman and I mean maybe it's not even like that weird obviously they're both like

literary, artistic minded people and I mean, maybe it's not even like that weird, right? Obviously, they're both like, literary, like artistic minded people. And I mean, Philip Pullman and Kate Bush are good friends. Seems that they are both running up that hill together. Wow. Running up that hill to attack and dethrone God. That hill to attack and dethrone God. Oh my God. That is the mashup we need. Well, okay. Back to what I wanted to talk about, though.

You got me all sidetracked, Eliana. It's all your fault. Sorry. No, I'm just kidding. We're off attacking, dethroning God. But that story, Marisa Van Zee, 70-year-old painting. What? That's an interesting concept that feels like it is being adapted on screen and that it is telling us something and uh that marisa has been to other worlds maybe that boreal's not

the first and that that is what she's implying like it's quite obvious that marisa knows far more than she's letting on to him and to us, obviously, in all formats of media. She's explained how brilliant she is. Asriel's explained how brilliant that she is. The universe underestimates her. So this, combined with some book info, and maybe even with some thoughts on Serpentine and Series 2, Episode 2, I don't know, Discord we've been discussing, maybe she's a witch. Maybe she's a failed witch that didn't separate in time and her research is her trying to figure out and her experimenting on herself to separate

when she failed to separate, maybe she's chasing the witch immortality, I don't know thoughts, thoughts yeah, that's interesting, especially with the animosity she shows towards the witches and hating them, yes it is like a very Especially with the animosity she shows towards the witches. And hating them, yes. It is like a very vibrant hatred, right?

It is, it is. And, you know, you touched on how Asriel talked about how brilliant Mrs. Coulter is in her scientific discoveries. Sorry, experimental theological discoveries. And in regards to the guild though marisa critiques boreal right throughout all this about what he's done in this world and how you know i think there's a lot in here that shows us how similar boreal is in fact to the guild in chittagatse you know he's using this power and knowledge for his own selfish gain rather than to benefit the rest of the world. That was his goal with the knife. He wanted it so that he could just continue building his wares.

And I think, you know, it's interesting because, like, Maurice's critique is, of course, like, she's thinking of the scientific revelations that their own world could have benefited from. And regarding Boreal's similarities to the guild, like he's got his little treasure room. It looks like all the little windows that the knife makes. He wants the knife again for like the way the guild numbers were. And he's fashioned the stairs leading into his basement to be similar to the architecture of Chittagatse. And his home is actually located literally in the same place as the tower.

Like, I feel like that's really intentional on his part but I kind of want to push back on the idea that Marisa's like that different from him in some ways like yes and no you know she's going to evolve but you know she encounters things in this new world and sees the possibilities

of what it could have meant for her life it reminds me of that whole discussion of why representation is so important in order to see what you could be meant for her life. It reminds me of that whole discussion of why representation is so important in order to see what you could be, your own possibilities for yourself. This is monumental, of course, in Lyra's life when she sees Miriam and is like, wait, women can be scholars?

Women can wear pants? Though we didn't do that in the show. She wore pants in her own world as well. But it is still framed in terms of what Marisa could have been, right? What her singular life could have been like. And part of me wonders if Marisa, like, this is a side thought, would have gotten an abortion if not for the way that the Magisterium is and, like, her maybe actually being very devout. But she does talk about how their world would benefit from these discoveries but she's also just so focused

on how she herself would benefit and i i don't think that's wrong right necessarily she's focused on that she's focused on how she can gain lyra and i think for many people you know realizing the injustices you faced is the start of a journey of empathy for like how can we protect and make the world better for everyone after us right as jopry's like really intent on and marisa will decide for lyra later but in this moment right now i think she's still in a way kind of in a similar mindset as boreal and those guild members on how her life individually could have been better not the life of every woman living in her world right as she thinks about the success that's only been taken from her personally she doesn't give a shit about like hannah ralph or something yeah it explains a lot especially considering like you said the hatred of the witches and just

how nasty and cruel it is like the jealousy there yeah lyra arrives at lord boreal's house and will works to cut in she arrives without will ready toal, and Boreal and Coulter watch her on CCTV. Coulter tells him to retrieve her. Will simultaneously is cutting his way into the living room, counting his steps, figuring out where he needs to be to get in. He enters, remembering to close his window behind him, and he crouches, sneaking to an alethiometer on the couch, stepping dead in his tracks when he realizes a woman is in the other room. Marisa comes to explore where she thought she saw motion, but writes it off, walks away for a moment,

and Will tries to get the alethiometer, but he's stopped by the monkey. And then, in turn, Marisa. The monkey gives the alethiometer to Coulter, and Lyra comes rushing in to the trap of her mother and to Boreal locking the door pushing her to a confrontation with Marisa. From there two standoffs ensue. We have one between Lord Boreal and Will and one between Lyra and Mrs. Coulter. Will threatens Boreal's treasures with the knife while Boreal and his snake threaten him taunting him about his mother and Mrs. Coulter offers Lyra her alethiometer trying to get her to come closer offering her more information on dust on what asriel did to roger we know what asriel

did to roger he fucking killed him all right offering to teach her to use dust and telling her to stay away from will the boy who will do nothing but harm her all right projecting much and lyra stays defiant and marisa tells her that she's so much like she was and Lyra tells her she is nothing like she is and snarls, which sets Pan to attack the monkey while Mrs. Coulter doubles

over on the ground. I want to call out quickly, I think Chloe you saw this right, that Jack Thorne had replied maybe it was Lo replied to someone's question about the Wolverine being used in I think episode one or two of this season I think one uh where Lyra is defending Will as he saves the cat and that it wasn't necessarily a like nod to Daphne's earlier role in Wolverine or in Logan.

And I mean, someone pointed out, right, that it's in the same family of animal as the red panda and the pole cat, the ermine. So, but turns out it was Jack Thorne and his team felt that it felt strange for Lyra to use a snow leopard,

even though it's associated with Lord Asriel, because for obvious moments like the death of her best friend that has been brought up again in this moment she wouldn't feel that close to her father to use a similar form as him I feel like that is a great way to set that situation up like that that she doesn't even think like why would she right why would she want to be Stelmaria, be anything like that man that killed Roger? Well, it's,

it was a really great scene. Nonetheless, this, especially with the Wolverine, uh, that snarl deserves all of the awards from Daphne Keene. When Lyra looks at her and she's like, I'm nothing like you.

That's the last string Marisa had, right? Like that is a broken woman crack that Lyra would use her brand of love, that toxic, violent love against her. That takes her completely by surprise. And it's like earlier when Mary told her she had the most interesting and brilliant conversations with Lyra while, you know marisa still looking at her as this little girl like the little girl in the stroller uh her little girl but she never thought lyra could do that to her and poor lyra poor lyra oh absolutely i mean her

parents just keep underestimating her right and never really getting to know her and i just there are so many reasons i feel horrible for lyra in the scene i think daphne did a wonderful job capturing all the emotions like you know how we talk about the the emoting that people do on their faces and how there's so many complex things daphne does a wonderful job not just the snarl like she captures the shock that lyra would feel right she's tricked into confronting and being in the same place as her abuser and she's trying to sort through what's real what's not what's intended by her mother who is her abuser and she discusses these later with will right it's a really intimate thing for them to have shared and the difficulty of of course like the person who hurts you being your own parent and as you

said like mrs coulter's tactics are being used against her but at the same time it is i think in my opinion different in terms of circumstances and the power dynamic like yes lyra has the upper hand here in the moment some of that element element of surprise. And I don't know, maybe metaphorically, like on an emotional level. I don't know. Yeah, it's different. I do think like Lyra is acting defensively, right? As opposed to offensively the way that Mrs. Coulter was. Is it hurtful? I mean, obviously, we see it in like, everyone's acting. But the pain and fear on Daphne's face, again, it's just perfect. And I think that, you know, remember during that scene, when we have the reverse of this in series one, when Mrs. Coulter did this to Lyra, Lyra was actually scrambling on the floor to reach Pan, to soothe Pan, the other half of her heart. Not just because she was in pain, but because Pan was in pain,

her other half. And Mrs. Coulter's monkey reaches out to her so many times like he did when he was at that window waiting for her when she went to the university. He's asking her for help as he's being attacked and what does Marisa do? She wills herself

not to feel it. She only looks at Lyra and that's, I think, very different from the Lyra that we see at this age, right? Where she's allowing herself to feel things and that's the exact thing that propels her to go to the underworld later on it's shutting that side of yourself off right while the monkey's being attacked by Pan Coulter is able to stand breaking out of the trance walking toward Lyra even through the demons fighting Will simultaneously gets the alethiometer as they're in their crazy big tent standoff and Will cuts a window and he's like

Lyra we have to go and finally they jump through just in time the monkey misses the monkey hits uh the wall I feel very bad for it and yeah they're gone yeah I love that it's Will who helps her and snaps her out of it right he understands not to be mad at her in this moment. Like, obviously he's tense, but he helps her out. Like, I don't feel like it's saving in terms of some of that, like, gendered stereotype, in my opinion. But, I mean, sometimes when you're dealing with your abuser, right, it helps to have someone on your side help you snap back into the world, and Will does that for her. Technically, he snaps her back into another world because they go back to Chittagatsune. That's a great point. Lyra thanks Will for getting the alethiometer back and you're right

uh earlier you know he gets mad at her when she loses it but this time at the end there was a big confrontation and he's not mad he's just worried for her right he's worried about her safety and she thanks him she tells him she wanted to kill Boreal, they discuss her mother, and she opens up about the monkey attacking Pan before, and she says that she hopes she's not like either of her parents, that it didn't feel good to act like Mrs. Coulter and she'd rather be like Ma Costa or at least Scoresby. He's never had to worry about his mother hurting him, he says, just others hurting her, and he feels for lyra here but he

tells her she doesn't need to be anybody else anyone would be lucky to be like her faces just scrunched up like why it's so hurtful it's so good but it's so hurtful yeah i love this scene again another one this is the other one that i mentioned was almost my favorite scene and you know lyra pledges to help him find his father now that the alethiometer is back but i just love that they're both sharing their difficulties that they have with their parents both of their experiences right neither is more hurtful than the other they're they're both painful and you know will has a lot more in store for him with the part where he like he finally reunites with his dad and then his dad dies in front of him um but i think that there's something really important highlighted here like to me when when will says that for all the difficulties that

he's had caring for his mother he has never ever felt unsafe from her right he's afraid for her a lot of the time but he's never afraid of her in the way that lyra is of her parents so they're sharing their hearts anyways um thanks for just uh slipping that one in by the way just another one oh yeah just i'm i'm here just to be like, everyone, everyone, what if you cried today? I cry every day. Joke's on you. Joke's on you. Oh.

Coulter and Boreal are discussing their loss. Boreal is a total scaredy cat. He's like, it's over. We can't go in there. There's a city full of specters, Marisa. We can't go after the kids. And Mrs. Coulter's like, we have to go after the kids. We have to. She tells him, once you understand something, you can master it. And he says, only children are safe from the specters. And she whispers, dust. They have no choice but to try. dust they have no choice but to try she swims closer to him on the couch very carefully blocked right because earlier she was like uh-uh i will not come near you with this fucking music on these ridiculous speakers here she is right up on him and she's like come on carlo don't we have to go

get those children you can't let children beat you she has her groove back oh yes with the llamas um it's another one of those moments that i get and i feel like is a sinister reflection of will and lyra's dynamic right as you were saying mrs culture is the first scholar to discover that it was at the time a demon settles that dust also begins to pull around a human and become attracted to them so i just love that you can see those gears turning in her head uh when she whispers dust and you know she's making that connection between specters only attacking adults and you know someone else right might encounter them soon we've got mary deceiving the guardian and entering to to god say it's it's changed interestingly here yeah it's smart the guard was expecting boreal and marisa so the guard's like oh mrs coulter i was expecting you

with carlo or with charles and she's like oh yes i'm mrs coulter and charles is on the way just like with just like with will and lyra right when will and lyra earlier pulled the switcheroo like will is on his way so similar there and also interesting before she steps through the world is that mrs coulter was jealous of her earlier and now mary is literally being mrs coulter in this scene ah interesting i was thinking of like so it feels like they used the way that this was done in the book and did it differently and reassigned it to the exchange that Mary and Louisa have, right, regarding the doctor and who's ahead of the department, things like that, and played with that earlier on instead of here, because Mary deceives the guardian here by playing on those assumptions of, I guess, gender,

and who's the doctor running the department and pretends to be Oliver Paine. Mary deceives the Guardian here by playing on those assumptions of, I guess, gender. And who's the doctor running the department and pretends to be Oliver Paine. And here instead, as you said, she takes on being Mrs. Coulter. But I do like that she does the same thing, as you said, as Lyra. It really shows us and reminds us that the people who care about Lyra and help raise her, right? The way that Lyra reminds us about the same thing of like Lee and Yorick and Mary and La Casa. She's got so many parents. She's like Jon Snow. It is like Jon Snow.

I hope that soon she gets some of her parents back, like Seraphina, right? I'd be excited for her to get more bonding in with Seraphina because in the book she has all those beautiful, lovely hugs with her and haven't had any yet what do you think we're gonna see next episode how did you say that when are we gonna see yorick again you know like i mean just once david i mean it was like a very little like ago you know like i don't know maybe we could see him let's bring back yorick he's not in this season yeah but they like wrote him in they wrote him in anyway they wrote in a bunch of people who aren't really here this season we can do it bring back yorick maybe maybe we'll get a clip at the end of the episode i hope so for your sake i do i think uh we'll get new mary stuff obviously right because this is new she steps through the chitagaze and it's wow first of all let me just

say that was beautiful the theme is playing underneath beautifully her theme and it's wow first of all let me just say that was beautiful the theme is playing underneath beautifully her theme and it the cinematic experience she's in front of the tour d'angely about to set off on an epic adventure so i think we have to get some new written stuff for her even if it's just a little bit to keep the series regular contract happy yeah and that's why i say we bring back your art too you know we don't have a lot left next week is six and then the week after that is seven that is how numbers work

thank you you're welcome yes it is and you know I do wonder we saw Mary go into Chittagatse and we're gonna see Mrs. Coulter go in and like this discovery that she makes about dust, specters, and demons and piecing it together and knowing that it's canon now that she can separate from her demon i almost wonder like is she going to leave the monkey behind in the house right like she did

it to go to the department could she do that um to enter chittagatse because we know that i think we've seen that the the specters in the books they tend to attack the demon and so i'm like would she leave the her monkey behind in order to be able to explore chitigatse that's interesting i'm wondering because they already know how to fly we've talked about right like yeah well not like i don't know maybe they're not high high but they're chitigatse high they can fly above and below chitigatse so i don't know i'm interested to see if we get like that i'm all is boreal does he die what what next episode or finale not finale finale is gonna be death central it is but like that's kind of why i wonder like if he would be in the last episode like it could be interesting right

like i mean i do think we're gonna see more of lee and job rebonding because we have to if he would be in the last episode. It could be interesting, right? I do think we're going to see more of Lee and Joppery bonding, because we have to. We have to get more screen time with them before they die. I wonder if we'll see more things that tie Joppery and the witches. They kind of talked about it a little before. But some of the action from the trailers, granted we were wrong before, right? It was like

the witches' homelands being attacked. But I kind of wondered like does i mean boreal could die in the next episode but i feel like it could be interesting the last one where you have it really contrasting or making a comparison between his death and uh lee and joppa's you know because he's so different from both of them and i think that the show's done interesting stuff with contrasts i would say that in the book, it's like Boreal's death is so small in the book. Blink and you miss it, right?

Like he's just in a tent with his booze. So I wonder it could be like one of those like last moments. It just zooms out and you see it happened or something. You know what I mean? Like, I don't know. But I feel like you have to have a big, I don't know. We'll see if it's a big death or not. I think they should give him an all out, all start up. I mean, yeah, he's, I've't know, but I feel like you have to have a big, I don't know. We'll see if it's a big death or not. I think they should give him an all out, all start up.

I mean, yeah, he's, I've said it before. And like, I don't even know how Lord Boreal has become like my favorite or one of my favorite parts of this show and season. Aryan 69. Aryan 69 on Twitter. Born in 1971. Good call out by Candid59, who will be on our final episode, not our penultimate episode next week, but our final episode of the series. And I cannot wait to do more great, thorough analysis with Candid59, as you can tell. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, they're also an expert on the series.

And we're also going to get sad with them. And that's the real magic of the podcast. Getting sad. Thanks. So now we're sad. I hope we get witches. Sad about Joppery and Lee. And I'm kind of sad.

Oh, God, I'm sad for Boreal. Arianne, what have you done? I know, right? I'm just like, he's like one of my favorite characters. How did this happen? Well, thank you so much for tuning in to Series 2, Episode 5 with us, the Scholar.

I can't wait to talk next week about Series 2, Episode 6, Malice, with you. And of course, Episode 7, Isahedra with a candid 59. So, as always, make sure you're subscribed to us on a podcast feed near you. Yes, you said Isahitra. I know, and I don't like it.

I like my old saying. Listen, subscribe to us on a podcast feed near you. Spotify, Podbean, Google Play, iTunes, Stitcher, stitcher a cast you name it we're there yes and of course you know maybe you have insights that you can tell us about the show or anything else in your life someone recently gave us olive recommendations and that was very much appreciated so you can tweet at us at girls gone canon c-a-n-o-n over on twitter or you you can tweet at us at girlsgonecanon over on twitter or you can shoot us an email at girlsgonecanon at gmail.com

yeah and make sure you run over and check out our patreon where we're going to have an episode at the end of the month right before the end of the year with the dust podcast covering the music of his dark materials in and out of series I'm very excited to have Matt and Holly on for that.

That's patreon.com slash girlsgonecanon. As always, I have been one of your hosts, Chloe. And I have been another one of your hosts, Eliana. See you next week. Thank you. Bye.