Girls Gone Canon Cast - House of the Dragon S3E8: The Treasons at Tumbleton

Episode Date: August 12, 2026

SPOILERS: ASOIAF, F&B, KOT7K, TWOIAF, ETC Tumbleton has a loyalty problem. Or two. Or several. Join us as we close out the season with the Treasons at Tumbleton: dragons, betrayal, questionable decisions, and the rapidly deteriorating concept of having allies. We'll return with a final UNLEASH THE D S3 episode featuring our friend Noah (@SamanthaTarly) Friday, 8/28 and TYRION I ACOK on 9/11. @ patreon.com/girlsgonecanon NEW INTRO: thank you kevin macleod and pixabay "The Descent" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/ Dragon Studio + PhatPhrogStudio on Pixabay  

Hello. And welcome back to Girls Gone Cannon watches House of the Dragon, Season 3, Episode 8, The Treasons at Tumbleton. I'm one of your hosts, Chloe. And I am another one of your hosts, Eliana. This is, this is it. This is it for the next few years. Wow. Two years from now, we will be going, wow, I'm so glad they flew away on her dragon together. right you mean her and Joffrey or trying to and then I might be less than two years from now I was thinking her and Allison

but listen that tells me something else something else just came up that we should tell you all about which is our spoiler policy hello welcome to Girls Gone Canada where we spoil everything in series, out of series, you might catch a stray spoiler if you listen too hard, but if it's in the Asong of Ice and Fire universe, we might talk about it.

If you're cool with that kind of spoiler, if you're not 100%, if you're cool with it, cool. If you're not cool, adios amigo, hit the road, Jack. Or the sky. And don't you come back no more? I mean, you can't. If you can't actually. I lied that.

I lied. You can come back if you want. Please come back. Once you're like comfortable with the spoilers. Yeah. We do want you back. But if you're here to stay, you're here to stay. And that said, rip to the people's princess, to the people's queen.

Holy shit. My princess died died tonight. Can you believe that shit? Wait, actually, kind of. Yeah. I can't believe, yeah, Ormond. No, I'm joking. Did you?

Me every week, every episode. Did you think of me? I ask every single time. The one person you spend maybe second most or most amount of time talking about A-Swath with? Most. I guess most. Most. Yeah. Well, I was like counting your partner because I don't know what ramblings he hears during the week. I mean, he obviously hears ramblings, but also I get hit every now and with the like, oh my God, Eliana, not everything's about. Please call it. Slogamice and Fire. Please call your little friend. Yeah. Or it's just like, I'll just like say random things.

Like every now they'll be like, oh my God, you guys. I don't know. It'll be like we're eating like, I don't know, a pancake. I'll be like, you guys, this is just like the time in a song of waste and fire when. But I also, it's kind of a bit now. You know what I mean? You and I love our bits. Yeah.

Yeah. We like a bit. We like to beat a bit to death. So let's get to beating some things. to death. Ty Mickle episode. Yeah. I was excited when I saw that. I do love Ty Minkle and I love that. Tye's like a fan, a fan like us, like a super fan.

Like I was watching all the behind the scenes stuff that we're privy to, the Casa built by the Dragons and then, you know, the lesser one that's at the end of the show, the other one, the easier one. And Ty's great. Everything Ty says is great. I don't think I knew about the one at the end of the show. I only watched, you know, the manner created by dragons. And often crossover, very simple, just like some interviews.

It's like, you remember how D&D used to do it? And they'd be like, here's my slow droning voice on why I made Sonsa get married to Ramsey. And you'd be like, blah. Okay, I'm about to sound... Some of it's kind of like that. So stupid because we're like here at the end of season three and tell you all. I'm not, I'm not too proud to admit it. I thought that the stuff that was at the end of the episodes, they moved to be the house

that dragons built and not that there was stuff at the end of that episode. There's two of them. There's two of them. Which like, low-key don't feel bad. Some people don't watch them at all. Like, poor Quentin doesn't watch them. I, okay. I started watching them just because.

like they were cute and because I really like the insight that you would bring to it but also part of why I don't watch the ones at the end of the episode is because I'm actually once again a different kind of crazy person who is like avoiding the trailers for the following week yeah so that's and it comes after the trailers so I did not know yeah they're not for you that's okay they're like Helena predictions I just think it would be like You're just going to find out what the rest of us. It would have been pure if I, like, poor Quentin, was avoiding it out of the matter of principle. I'm just avoiding it because I'm stupid.

Oh, I just don't think he cares. I think he knows through there. I thought it was just like a matter of principle. Okay. Well, well, well, well, well. No, like, for behind the scenes, before we get into it, you know, Nodakast podcast, ASOI-I-A-F records right before us. And as soon as they are done recording, we are. unleashed to record our episode.

And they record it for two hours and 20 minutes tonight at least. That's crazy. They never record that long. So it's going to be juicy. You're in for a treat. They don't have time to be watching those end things, you know, because they're busy. They're busy getting down to business.

Unlike some of your hosts. We like a little neandering. We like a little... Yeah, we're over here just being like, you guys, let's talk about what we're, don't know is being aired. That's just me. I like a little lally gag, you know?

Like, I like a little navel gaze. I don't know. I mean... I like a little Neander. It's because we, like Helena, are just appreciating the beautiful banter that is to be had. Huh. Huh.

I like this episode, actually. I'm a 3E8 fan. and I'm not afraid to stand up and say it, and I know that's controversial. I'm a season three fan. I'm standing up tall when I say this with my chest. I'm a season three fan. I mean, I still like season three. You know, I think you've all heard me speak about the many things that I like about season three.

I just think that I liked it less than the past two seasons. I thought like the beginning of the season, like episodes one through four or one through five actually, in. We're really strong. I liked last episode, but I think this episode for me, I started struggling with it more, and I think like I'm, and it has to do with the thing that I've been talking about the past few episodes in regards to the pacing, but not even just that. I think I'm, I'm, look, I'm not like going to be a book purist about it, especially because it's hard to be a book purist about like fire and blood, even fucking fire and blood. not a book purist about what happened in fire and blood.

But I, there's... Here comes the butt. Here comes the butt. I'm just confused. I'm just, like, confused about a lot of things. I'm confused about why certain things were changed, and I'm confused about, like, some decisions. Like, it kind of feels like we're...

I'm sorry, I mean, like, so negative up top, but, like, I do enjoy a lot of the things, and we'll get into it. But there are some things where it feels like they are having characters do things, just to have them do things. And, like, in the end, like, it does kind of... work out in that you see that it does flesh some stuff out in terms of characterization and where arcs end up and themes. But to an extent, it feels like we're kind of just having people just like do things to fill space because we feel like they must be doing a thing or a plot

at every given moment. I mean, I'm going to be real with you, tragically. Welcome to HBO TV and fire and blood in all 200 pages of the dance of the dragon. Yeah. Like I think that's really the truth of it. It's, it's, you do have to have, like, I've seen complaints about the show being kind of like a parking lot. Like you have a character they do a thing and then you don't see them until it's time for them to do the next thing. And it is what we ran into in the latter seasons of Game of Thrones. Likely because those latter seasons also similarly are very loosely built on plot points. I mean, there's some stuff I'm willing to forgive. But also there's some stuff I'm Absolutely not, right? Like, we're going to get into it, but like the Valerians, there's some really great stuff happening, and then there's also some really lack of stuff happening in between when they are just off the screen, off the page, doing nothing. And I would say I'd counter what you've said and even add to it that you have a lot of dramatic tension building because there's plot points to get to. So, for example, the Alan Valerian stuff this episode, sorry, Alan of Hole.

Alan's stuff, this episode is like really good in the moment. The acting's killing it. Actually, the writing's great just for the moment. But also, it's a realization that it is a buildup to get to a dramatic point of tension so that you can release it when Adam goes off. And he realizes he should, like, his brother is being punished. And he loves his brother and who is he and what kind of makes? is he and what does he stand for? So like there's a lot of like, oh, let's do this thing that no one

would ever see coming just to do the opposite thing to build tension in the story, which I understand, but it gets used a lot. Yeah. So I actually like loved the Allen stuff. I love whatever they're doing with like Allen and Adam. I'm meh on what they're doing with Corley's. And you know what? I think I'll just call it out. I'll just call it out like when we get there throughout this episode because I guess we should just jump into it. And I'll be like, this is a thing. get this is the thing I did you know because that is the whole point of the outline and the rest of the episode that you are listening to that's true for us to talk about it well before we jump into it so you know we are in a song of ice and fire podcast covering a reread p o v by pov chapter

in normal off season hours we are finishing up our published a swath p ov by p ov reread With Tyrion, we are going to be starting Tyrion in a clash of Kings. We have a bunch of great guests scheduled in the future to come on. You should definitely subscribe, follow, listen, do all those things if you haven't been doing it this season. We will be off next week. We will not be releasing an episode next week. August 28th, we will release our next episode, which will be a hit episode from the series that critics are saying, so good it had to come back.

Unleash the D. Usually a primer series, but here it will be a post-mortem series, and we will be doing this episode, celebrating the end of season three with our friend Noah. You may know them as Samantha Tarley on Twitter, the artist known as X now. And it's going to be a fucking fabulous episode because there's no one else in the world outside of, like, Eliana,

and maybe my roommate. that I want to listen to talk about Ace Wath, like Noah. They were on during our Samwell Tarley chapters, and it's going to be a fucking privilege and honor to have them back. Yeah, I always, like, I've said this before, but I've been really enjoying Noah's commentary throughout the entire season. And, like, I just think, like, this is a really good season to have Noah on for. Yes.

Um, especially, you know, with all this stuff in the reach, so. Well, especially because as you and I talked about offline, like, they're like the Dairon to our Ormond and Gwain, you know what I mean? This has to do, this is, this is about the age gap. And we're going to come back to this email from- And about how evil you are. That's true. We're going to come back to this email from our friend Tanna, um, at another point in time

where Tana, Tana's worried about it. us. And I'm worried about us too. F in the chat if you're worried for the girls. Yeah. If you're worried for the girls. If you're worried for the F button, please hit the F in the chat, please.

Hey, we will be taking the week after that episode off. And after that, we will be back on September 11th with Tyrion, won in a clash of Kings, back in full action, ready to light up. The city, no, stop. It's actually the seven, thank you very much. Yes, so we're about to go like a little bi-weekly, you know, very... That's not the only by-thing about us.

Very sexy, yeah, about us, you know, pan-weekly. Anyway, so that's what our schedule's looking like. We are going to, of course, still be coming at you on. Patreon where we are going to be releasing this month, Act 3, Part 1 of Mocking Jay of the Hunger Games series. We are continuing that read-through. And then we are also going to be back with a brunch slash happy hour, Brapy Hour.

And that's going to be on August 29th at 1 p.m. ET. Our Thunder Tier patrons get access to Brapley's. hours. That's our $10 and above patrons over at patreon.com slash Girls Gone Canon, C-A-N-O-N, and our Stranger Tier patrons and above get access to bonus episodes. Every month, we've been covering Mocking Jay, as Eliana said. We're about to close it up in the next month here. After this month, I think next month will be the end. And then we're going to jump into some more fun from Suzanne Collins. but our bonus episodes tend to go from everything,

A-Swaff, over to other books we've read or movies we like or shows we've watched. So please take a look at those. There are hours and hours and hours and hours of endless content available for you that you've probably never heard over at our Patreon. Yeah, there's, it's always interesting, though, when we cover a movie because it's so rare for me to watch a movie.

That's a joke. but it's not. What I do watch, though, is this series, House of the Dragon. Yes, let's go to Queens Landing and start with He Is Risen. First of all, I spit out of my nose, both of the times I've listened to them say, he has risen in that scene. Funniest fucking delivery, hysterical. I love a comedy.

I love a dromedy, like Hot D made me, like I seriously laughed so hard. I might have peed a little when they said it. Um, that's on age. But I love, love, love, love, love, love, love the theme of resurrection. Uh, you can kind of see how the news of Agan's resurrection and all of the connotations that come with it in the middle of her trying to really keep that grasp on power could potentially be an issue. And then I also see this reflection of, uh, John and Agan in the main Aeswaffe series, right?

who both of them are potentially going to be resurrected from the dead, right? Agin's head was bashed in, little baby boy, or was it, question mark, what about this boy that suddenly appeared? And what about John? Resurrection? Having a male claimant suddenly be resurrected from the ashes? That is enough to drive someone a little crazy. Just a little.

One petit. Okay. It's kind of fun that you also called it a dromedy. like it is and it isn't at times because this episode is directed by someone who very much did arguably a dromedy. Like I think Succession is like exactly a dromedy and this episode, right, is directed by Andri Perak of Seccas of Succession. I'm so fucking glad you said this because I was thinking of bringing it up because not only has he directed some succession, but he directed. America decides season four episode eight of succession when they're in the middle of like choosing who the president's going to be blah blah blah blah like is it going to be the evil evil hitler kind of guy

is it going to be you know so like it's actually really incredible that you've chosen this moment to bring it up because he understands these battles and the poison dripping through right he understands it himself already from previous employment absolutely and i do think like there are moments where you can see that coming through in the way that the scenes are shot for this episode, right? Those like those shots from below, which I feel like Succession did a really good job of playing with the idea of how do you convey a sense of power through the angles with which they showed. The characters, I will say less the battles were great, but less of this, less of the strong suit, but I think

a lot of the other stuff was really strong this episode. In regards to the resurrection, it also makes me think a little bit, I'm not sure where they're going to go with the idea of the shepherd, but the shepherd is someone who is also discussed as being like somewhat resurrected and coming back

and looking like, this person's really fucked up looking, but yo, they're back and it's kind of like it plays with George saying that when you're resurrected or you just come back, like that should change you. You should be a little, like, you shouldn't come back as like, harder, better, faster, stronger, you know, like Gandalf did. And is Egan not changed? He is. And I do think like

that's like, I think they've done a good job of showing that here, which is very in line with George's philosophy. I think another change that like the, there are, like I said, a lot of changes from the books. This stood out to me. I'm a little, this is one where I'm kind of like what, we see its impact on Rainier's character, so I understand that. But it did stand out in that Egan. It was a fun twist, right? Like that no one truly knew that he was still alive in the books up until they're like, yo, he and his dragon are alive, but now everybody knows.

I don't mind it in a lot of ways, and I think it does give them a little something to do until Dragonstone. Also, I'm in it so that I could see, like, Amman to have to put his little arms around Agin on Sunfire, that would be funny, right? Could you imagine, like, riding, like, your arms around? I grew up riding snowmobiles, so, like, you used to, like, some people would call that riding bitch, which is fucked up. Now that I think about it, society is really misogynistic. This is the same people that denied Reneera. Um, the same. But so immediately I was like, oh, like, riding bitch to Agan, how funny would that be? And then I, like,

examined it in my head. I'm like, wow, why do I think these things? Because society has drilled it into me. Still would be really cute to see, though, just saying with his little arms around his little waist. That said, I like the idea of, like, them burninating the riverlands and maybe, like, embracing the dragon for a little bit. And then them finding Vagar and him being like, well, I've got an idea to set a trap for the bitch.

See you there. I'm not too worried about this point, though. Like, I think he's still going to fucking surprise them. And I still think it's probably going to be the best. Bela shows up or that she's there already when he tries to show up. Something's going to happen. Something's going to happen. A fun.

Two more years. I can't wait. It's crazy. So, as you all know, Rainira and Damon speak to one another in Valerian. It's their own special little language that entire city-states of people also speak across the sea. Oh, my God. But this was so funny to me. Stop it.

like she goes tumbleeton i was just like why did you valera it's just yeah i was like why did you volourify tumpleton like it wasn't it wasn't like a town in which there was a native pronunciation for like tumbledin in old valeria i don't even know that tumbledon existed during the time of old valeria and then also to to do that just kind of like was very funny to me because i don't think in the free cities. They've done that because, and like I do sound, it sounds so funny and very weird sometimes, you know. You're speaking another language,

you're speaking Tagalog or like whatever. And then you just suddenly say a word like Hershey's, right? Or blah, blah, blah, blah. Insert like English word here. But like that's because that's the word for it. And so that was so funny. Tumleton. I know.

I was actually feeling that way, like as somebody who's watched many of my friends speak other languages to their parents would be like ah the mall pa like you know like just the most like fucking like American ass word that would have been maybe a little better but it did make us crack up in my household because we were like oh hi Valerian really is just French sometimes because that's how French people are they say words like that

tumbleitin I don't remember what one was that I had this week in my dual lingo but it had me roll in I was like okay at least I know idea like offshoot I don't know off shoot if we ever do You guys can take the idea too. I don't really care. I'm not like, you know, wedded to it. And you recall the series Tomblaetton. And like, who knows what it'll be about?

Or you just make a good community. You call it Tomblaighton. That's it. That's what I have for you. You can all take that idea. Thank you, Eliana. That's really beautiful. It's really beautiful.

Also, I noticed it because Chloe's very good about pointing it out in other episodes. Maybe she is just in the back of my head. You're right, whenever the fuck I watch this show. there's like that little subtle like bringing back of Rainier's theme with yes the vocals that Chloe has performed for us just now during the scene and this is associated with like ray near for the most part but I do remember it being there when she and Damon like they escape and go on hijinks for the very first time that first season and so you can see where that's all coming up and then also you know it stands out that she's talking about

like after everything like every, I've met its every challenge, you know, like she can't, she can't give it up. She cannot give up the throne, not after everything she has paid already, because otherwise it would have all been in vain, right? Like the lives of her children, all in vain. She has to see it through, or else it was all for what? That's something that, I think that's something that stood out so much, right? This episode, especially with all the killing of children.

Like, what's one more? What's one more child against the lives of thousands? Well, everything. But of course it would seem that way, right? When you've gone so fucking far, what's one more step when you're this close to achieving what you've dreamed of and what you think you're supposed to have in order to save the world? What's one more step? What's one more? Yeah.

Except like you see her harden, right? Like I, as I told you before this episode, I like macro-dosed season three today. I had it on in the background. It wasn't necessarily like paying attention to it. But I did pay attention, like in glimpses and, like, stopped and paused and went back when I felt so interested in between some data entry and some meetings. And that stood out a lot of, like, the very front of the season and how strong Reneira seemed in her convictions and how now she is still strong in her convictions. But her convictions and herself have hardened, right? She has turned to steal in front of our very eyes.

Like, there is no give anymore. And you see that moment with Damon, right? Like you're saying, like when they're speaking, when they're talking, and like when he tells her, well, honey, you got to be strong or else Westeros ain't going to have you as a queen. And she's like, fine, I will be strong then. I'll put the man cosplay on once more. Yeah. I mean, like, he's her image of what does power look look?

And she idolized him. He's her. Since she was a child. He's her and he's not, right? Like, I think this comes through a little in their dynamic in which, there's an aspect of it where he almost feels parental to her in that and that is kind of the case, right? Because of how much older he is her uncle, right? Like, he is in many ways molded this Rainira in his own image and that's kind of what he was wrestling with and feeling guilt about that came through in his dream from last season with young Rayneara.

Yeah, like maybe it was me that ruined it. maybe it's my fault. I do love that. I'm very much liking that Damon kind of gravitas, right? That he's gaining all this like baggage of, oh God, what have I done finally? And I really like the way it's, I mean,

it's not changing him much, obviously, in his actual actions. But for those of you that listen to our Hunger Games podcast, you may have heard a guest that we had on a while back, my mother. And my mother and father, like, strangely remind me of Reneera and Damon in some aspects of their relationship, not the uncle thing,

but moreover, like, in the aggression of, like, Damon needs to pick up a metal thing and hit stuff with it. Uh, okay. Like, that is how he works things out. If you put him in a council, he's a man of action.

So if you put him in a council, he's going to lose his fucking mind. And Reneira is, like, can do the politicking, but when things start to get to against her, she gets mad and she gets impatient and she makes bad decisions because of it. So I find it very fun how those two dynamics play off of each other because I've seen it my whole life. So like when Damon gets mad, he leaves the council and like beats shit up with his sword.

When Reneira gets mad, she like freaks the fuck out. And then she just like turns internal for a bit and then like comes back out hardened. And I find that very fascinating because that's how she processes things where he's like hit things. where he's like hit things with mallet. She's like, bury them deep and dissolve them until they become a part of me. Not to like docs your parents, but also there's no problematic age gap. As far as I know they're the same age. They're three years apart, actually.

That it's pretty problematic when you consider. That's like the same age once you get to that point in life. That's like me and my partner. We're also three years apart. Actually two and a half exactly he would tell you, but who cares? facts aren't really real. Anyway. Three years, huge age gap.

Anyways, so. I'm just a girl. Let's talk about, you know, speaking of Rainira empower her coronation. Congrats, girl, you did it, you got it. Kind of, not really. Uh-huh.

That is, that's exactly how that went. Very true, Aliana. I was like, she actually didn't get it at all, you know, but sometimes, You just got to make your own lemonade. You know, very season six, episode 10 Thrones, very Winds of Winter Thrones. I can see the Circe parallels and the coronating and the murder of the Pope and all that stuff. The makeup was great.

I loved her trappings of power. The makeup with the slit across her eye, the red slit, very minimalist. It actually made her look like a dragon, right? Like the embodiment of the dragons in a way. so I really loved that and made her look like she had slid it dragon eyes. And I love that we come from the beginning of the season when she's trapped in Dragonstone and she's ripping up the dress, right? Saying that she can be a king.

I can be a real king. I can be a real king. Knowing that she can't really be a queen, right? She has to be a king. There are no queens. There are only kings. And then this episode, donning the full armor, Damon telling her, you have to show your strength.

So she will. A chain male qua. Valerian armor, very reminiscent in some aspects of some female rulers up before. Like, Joan of Arc has a lot of presence in this episode, I would say, as an inspiration, both for her, and we'll talk about in Helena's Ark. And it also reminded me a bit of like Elizabeth I first and Mary Queen of Scots, who didn't necessarily don armor, but just as a warrior who had to embody and embrace being a queen, but also not being a queen, right?

Being what they want. Yeah, I really love that you called out. Like, I do think it was very much giving Joan of Arc. I think that creates this really interesting tension with what's being played with in this scene, right? Because Joan of Arc, part of what people talk about in regards to her story is, like, she was very religious. You know, she was very much a religious champion.

And, like, how that comes through then with what's being conveyed in this scene. where Rainira is saying that I am chosen by a higher religious power while at the same time going up against this one, right? And reinstating, like, so I think there's an interesting tension with the way that that imagery is coming through. Yeah, and there's even something in the silhouette and in the storyline that gives the evil queen in Snow White very much with the quote.

with the quaff and the crown. And even like when she's closing the window post Helena's jump, just the shadow and silhouette of her almost looks like the evil queen. So you kind of have that like, I don't know, the Disney fairy tale Hans kind of trope going on of like the evil step mother when it comes to Bella and Raina. And a step sister or evil sister, evil half sister, I guess, in Helena's scenario too.

So when she, especially when she like, telling Alan, like, don't you want to just kill the Pope? Because you don't have to answer to him, buddy, because we're dragons. Like when she tells him that, you can also see kind of that silhouette going on. So something to watch out for. Don't you ever just want to go apeshit? Literally. And I think that, like, 20 times a day. And if I think that 20 times a day, how many times do you think Renira thinks that a day? Like, probably all of the time. And like, yeah. I do think it's also kind of interesting to you that in the same moment that she's conveying and talking about, we are the chosen ones, we Vilarians, right? She's wearing this thing that is covering the basically biggest symbol, like the biggest trapping

of that Valerian power of like the very blonde hair. That's it. I have like no, no bigger. Interesting to be covering that. Which is crazy because to your point, yeah, like that is their power. but having a penis is more powerful. Yeah, they've just been like kind of, they talked about it a lot this episode being like,

we are the blood of old Valerian. That makes us, you know, we're really leaning into the Targaryen exceptionalism and Valerian exceptionalism this episode. And not us, I mean like we, like the royal we, you guys, like, not me. Well, as shills for HBO

who get paid dump trucks of money every week. I do think like it's kind of interesting in that, we're talking about also her going up against the faith and like she does get called make or with teats because of the tax policy and I do think like that should be addressed at some point like that was like kind of almost unfair but you can see like why it had that impact on people but going to war against the faith is like it it's a pretty big make or move you know like that actually is kind of like a make or thing to do we'll talk about it with Alan and just a minute because I think there's just so much.

I mean, even the setup of the scene and the way she entered and the guards spilling out, very interesting, great use of that set. And honestly, like, high key, I really like the inclusion of that. It makes the world feel a little more developed and it adds something that isn't necessarily elaborated on in fire and blood, but feels like it would happen, right? like the faith is very hand in hand with the high towers. Yeah. In the backyard of the high towers.

You have to make nice with your neighbors. So I don't know, it's a very logical, fun piece of show creation. Yeah. I love the prophecy telling to Joffrey. And I like, I mean, I love that we have her a disconnected, right, from Joffrey. This whole entire season, she has not been able to speak to him. from her guilt, from everything going on, mommy's a little stressed. And the way she tells Joffrey is so cold and disconnected.

She can't even say Jace's name. She can't even look at him in the eye. It's really sad. And also, he can't really even speak because Mommy's kind of crazy right now. And I just like have this very clear concept that the prophecy is probably going to get more and more disjointed as she runs. out of airs, right? And it makes me think of, in the books, you know, it's said that she kept Agan three by her side, constantly at the battlements, that she would just be speaking to herself and walking

around crazed, frenzied, and just that she's probably giving out disjointed bits of the prophecy to Agan, and he probably will have no clue what the fuck any of it means. Probably not. Whatsoever, he'll be like, okay, lady, I'm five. No, he's like three. So they might age him up somehow. Who knows? No one knows. It's a surprise. So very good work there.

Just the coldness with which she tells him and the inability to even like dumb it down a little bit for him. Like, no, it's like Rick on, right? Like, well, he's three. He'll need to get a move on. Yeah. Time to grow up. I do wonder what they'll do with him because so much of this episode was focused on him. and I think you even see like a mirror so he, as they're leaving the set, right, he's like looking back

and he, you know, we open up all of a song of ice and fire while we opened it up with the others and then we open it up with a brand chapter in which it's his first time seeing a beheading, right, an execution. And Joffrey, no one stops him from looking and no one tells him to look, but he looks back and goes and watches like Alan stab the high septin. And so, and him looking back while being led away very much like mirrors a shot in Tumbledin

where you have another little boy who looks very much like Joffrey doing the exact same thing looking back as he's being led away from all the violence. So yeah, I don't know. I'm curious like what Joffrey thinks about all this. Is he like, hell yeah, we're the blood of old Valeria. Mom told me so. We're chosen. Or is he like, mom?

or is he like, I just don't know what going, what's going on? Or all. Colin, you consider his book plot, right? Like, that he tries to be brave for his mom after losing his brothers. He tries to be brave for her because, I don't know, because he thinks she needs him to be. And introducing that and introducing that kind of pressure that you're putting on this child in the very episode where then you focus on child. soldiers. You focus on the breaking of the child soldier. You focus on Helena when it's too much for her killing herself, right? Like, this is a very, very specific way to show Joffrey's return to the plot. It can't be good, as you all probably know.

Yeah. Indeed. How about that breakup with Mizaria? Yeah, I wasn't expecting that. Just, because she does stay by Rainier's side for longer in the books. I think it's a good way to spirit her away and get her involved with the plot on the ground with Sylvie. Maybe what's really funny is I was thinking about it like the night before the episode and I was like, what if S.C. is a nickname for Missaria because she can't go by Masaria if she's orchestrating on the ground. So maybe we'll see her become the other half to Sylvie.

Maybe she's going to go back and be like, I'm sorry that I was so stupid. Please take me back. But I did like it. I was very surprised as well. Showing us a couple things with that, right? That Reneiro's really afraid of intimacy and vulnerability. She is so afraid to be vulnerable.

So much so that it's lending to paranoia in some aspects and so much so. I mean, I took it very much like Selena Meyer and Veep, right? Sending away somebody that you've gotten too close with because you can't trust them or yourself with them. I very much took the seduction of Reneira in the previous episode where Missaria thought she was doing the right thing by kind of seducing her with power at the same time and with adoration. But also that like Reneira let herself be subduced. She was submissive to that in that moment.

Like, if you're a queen, you can't do that. If you're a king, you can't be doing that. I guess kings do it all the time, though, right? Yeah, and they're so fucking stupid. They just come everywhere. That's true. It's ridiculous. Yeah.

Come all over. There's an aspect of it that is, like, what you said, and I'm going to come back to that in a moment. I also saw it as, like, showing that she has, because this comes a few moments after Bala telling Rionera, like, once you have no more use. for someone you like abandoned them. And so this is showing a continuation of that pattern where we see that she suddenly sees like she has no more use for Mizaria's counsel because Mizaria has been at odds with Damon and it shows she has chosen that past.

She has chosen the dragon, right? In terms of like speaking to some of the decisions and themes that are in a dance with dragons, the fifth book of Aswaf. And especially because Mizaria kept saying, don't know. trust Damon and she's like no I'm going with Damon's plan now but another thing that it made me think of in terms of like her just only being like discarded after that that night of a physical intimacy is it kind of reframes the relationship then she had with Kristen Cole like I know that was something that was thoroughly discussed in regards to like power and the use of someone's body and

and station, right, during that first season with Kristen Cole. And so, like, Misaria now kind of exists in that same context of that conversation. Not stating anything in favor for or against Kristen Cole, though I tend to lean towards against. But, yeah, I mean, yes, it was very clear. And we'll get into the stepdaughters of it all, actually, in a minute. But also, like, also that she can trust Damon to be Damon. Yeah.

Right? Damon in this season has done Damon things every single time. Whenever given the option, Damon has behaved like Damon. So much so that multiple times this season, Reneer was like, I can't believe that Damon did the thing that I knew Damon would do. Again, you can trust that a lot more than Azaria. That's true. That's true.

Like, you might not always like the thing that he does, but you can trust it. Like, they have that, they have that understanding, right? Like, she, she did feel betrayed by the sheepsealer thing, but she was like, well, she understood, she didn't, like, purely understand, but she didn't, she didn't. And she even went back to be like, see, he didn't betray me. Right? Like. Yep.

And so she does, does expect a kind of loyalty from him. And I do wonder how, or if that will change at all, right, because that is kind of a breaking point for her in fire and blood. Regarding the coronation, I will say a lot of the language of it and that reinforcement, the self-righteousness

around, like, I'm doing this and I get to do this and like my religion is correct now. It's very stannis-like. Especially of being like, how come nobody wants, I'm the one who's chosen. Why will no one recognize

my rule and that I the one who is chosen. It's giving Stannis. Yeah. The usual Stenera. Yeah. Used to it. You know who's not used to it?

It's nice to be proven right, though. You know who's not used to it, Stannis. Oh my God. Dead in the ground. The once in future Lord of the Tides. Really, really, really like whatever the fuck they're doing here with Alan, whether it's for dramatic tension or not, him killing the Pope,

which I'm sure will not have future consequences. Yeah, I interrupted this note of Chloe's because I really need to share in that context, like what a member of my focus group said, like, especially it came on the screen and he's like, oh my God, he'd J.D. Vance the Seventh. I stopped it. And I was like, no. I was like, oh, my God.

Because as you'll all remember, I guess J.D. Vance met with the Pope, but then he died the next day. Oh, my God. Or something. like that. And I was like, that's crazy. Yes. Yes. J.D. Vance the Pope.

That's all. He should have. That would have had more fun. I don't know. We don't know that if he didn't. He just straight stabbed him. Fuck. There is a great little line. So despite what I said earlier about it being dramatic tension, right, and being added, you do need some dramatic tension.

You need a little bit of a pull of the plot. Alan is somewhat of a nothing character for a while anyways in the plot. He just does war and stuff. So not bad. And I love that he is, I love this three line that he's seeking power and legitimacy straight from the source, straight from the faucet, instead of his father, because he sees his father as weakening and potentially stalling his political progress and his progress to power.

But also that, like, the source of legitimacy that he's seen. seeking the water from is poisoned. In this very episode, even, the well is very poisoned, and it's easy to see from anyone that looks in, the walls are closing in. To get the legitimacy, you're handed a cursed blade. Kill this religious icon, everlasting, no matter who replaces them, for your new god. Lose a piece of yourself in the process to pay for that legitimacy, a blood sacrifice. What do you do?

And he hesitated. He did. He did. But he bought it, right? Like, he's, he's been buying into, into this idea of, um, being the blood of old Valeria, which is, you know, is he going to start growing out his hair? Actual question. Hmm.

I know you keep asking. I do. I feel like you've asked before this season, but I really hope, like, at least once. But he should, right? Like, he should. He should just grow it the fuck out. throw it up in some locks eventually, you know, some shorty locks, some twists. Yeah, I'm just, like, kind of curious because if, like, that's a thing he's buying into.

And, like, I think it makes him actually, like, a really great, you know, a really great, like, a counterpart, you know, to go alongside with the Rainier's storyline, because same as how Rainier is here being, like, I am, I want to be chosen. I am the one who's chosen. That's clearly the same thing that's kind of driving Alan. and I'm very interested in whatever they're doing with this character, and I think we'll sprinkle more of that discussion throughout this episode, because it does tie into many other things.

But I think that's one of the ones that I'm just like, I'm satisfied with that arc so far. I do wish we had more. As always, I do wish we had more because there's some fun stuff going on there as well as, like, I think you can start to see, like, how this change in him could lead to. to like what, you know, we're always a little confused. Like, how do you get to the dynamic that Alan and Bela have once married?

And like, maybe there's roots of it that we're starting to see here. Yeah, absolutely. They are doing some sort of groundwork to have these secondary and tertiary cast members spring up. Just in case, you know, it's kind of like a safety scenario because just in case they have to kill a bunch of main characters off. and they have to hold down the plot for one episode, you know, just in case. Just in case. I don't know if it would ever happen. I don't know if it would ever happen.

But I will say of the Valerian squad, Alan's probably the best fleshed out right now. Yeah, I do wish that is something that does. Him and Raina, I guess. Yeah, I feel like they keep almost giving us enough of Bayla's characterization. And, like, I think that they think that they flushed out. Bela's characterization, but it's not, it's not fully there. I think Raina's more fleshed out than Bela tragically, which isn't. Yeah, I was like, I feel with so little street time, yeah, I do.

It's consistent. At least Renas is consistent from what they've always done about what her character's motivation has been. Bela's motivation, to some of your points, you've actually changed my mind this season a little, but like, you know, of preparing to be the queen, preparing to be able to serve to do your duty, I would have liked to see more of that conflict before being told about it. I do feel Bela is lacking. Now I will say there are implications because of the implications, like that like in the book,

she's boy crazy. They have to try to marry her off specifically because she's boy crazy. And if they don't do something about it, pop, pop. So, like Sarah. V2 of her. Oh my God. Well, but that's like why summer I term pretty is okay in some aspects, because she is like the belly.

She is like, I'm the prettiest girl at the cousins. Sorry. The prettiest girl at the uncle's ball. Oh my God. It kind of does write itself. Bela, belly is a Bela. Anyways. I do think like maybe this is one of those things.

Like, again, I'm a little confused, I guess, about the pacing. this season because there are things that kind of feel like it was slow in a way that I did like in some of those middle episodes but like couldn't we have use that time then to like flesh out some of these characters more like sometimes it feels like we like ad hoc just like wrote something in like we're it feels to an extent like they're making up some stuff as they go

along like when I was this is gonna sound bad I don't mean this to sound like insulting but I'm gonna like just phrase it like this when you're a kid and you're learning to tell stories and you're like talking to your friends and then you just kind of like keep like adding things on and you just like make it up and it kind of it there are moments it feels like that to me and it's not enough time with the amount of episodes that we got like we should then like make it feel much more intentional like really draw it out and like let us see more of like what's going on with bela and adam and and all of these dynamics you know it very much felt for almost all of

these secondary and tertiary characters, like they were missing an extra scene. Yeah, I agree. At least one more scene. And you know what? It's so fucked up two years ago, probably today, two years ago, you and I were sitting here saying, we need two more episodes. We need one to two more episodes. We need one to two more episodes for this exact reason.

I swear to God, like look it up. Go listen to the episodes from season two. We said that shit. I know we did. because it's the same problem we encountered literally two years ago today. And I still stand by it, especially considering the fact that, like, if we're being honest, we kind of got a six-episode season. We literally did. And so I think that's part of why it feels like it feels rushed.

Like decisions that characters are making, it feels like it was kind of just like slapped on. And I'm like, how did we decide that? Like, how did we get to that? Because it was. They just said it because they wanted it to happen. And then it's not like they were reverse engineering it from like an outcome like with the very vague outline that came from Game of Thrones because we have like a little bit more flushed out of one in Fire and Blood. And like again, don't get me wrong. I'm enjoying the show.

These are just like, I'm confused. I know it's my choices. I mean, not to be meta. But I think this is just how it's going to be for a lot of things. like this moving forward after COVID, after the writer's strike, like, it really changed a lot of our production and the way we do things. And like, there are so many ripple effects. Hey, the butterfly effect, as George would say. It's, it is what it is, I guess. I feel like, I don't know. I feel like I'm having like a different version of this. I've complained like the past few episodes already

about how anime episodes are shortening things from 26 episodes to 10 episodes. But what's interesting is it's kind of the opposite of what happens in those 10 episodes. The cutting filler. Yeah, they're like, and I don't think it's bad. Like, they're keeping the pacing, right? But you're just getting even less chunks of the story. It's not advancing as much. You get 10 episodes and you're like, what the fuck is everything else?

Lean Sigma 6. Yeah, but I do like understand that to an extent because they've run into this problem many times over the years, they have practiced with it. Some of it is actually because the manga isn't at a place where they can sustainably, I guess, tell the story with, I guess, that many episodes, because it's still ongoing. Yeah. So I get it, but I'm just like, and then it takes two to three years, and it's just like, I don't know, there's like no middle ground, you know, when you play the game of TV shows. You win or you die. And I just feel like I'm dying. You do win or die. Understood.

Speaking of stepdaughters, as we've kind of got into them a little bit. So just calling out, feature not a bug, again, reiterating, like, Reneira's behavior with her stepdaughters has always been a feature, not a bug. Reneer's treatment of her allies and taking them for granted coming to the forefront is correct. It's been correct since day one she has not made. a very strong alliance on her own since she became queen in Dragonstone in season one. From the very beginning, right? She sent her 12-year-old son, 13-year-old son, whatever he is, to go to the Barathean court empty-handed.

Like, that's not, I like the idea that people will like you because you're the queen or king and your kids coming to town, but also that's just not how it works anymore. People play dirty. Um, Bayla's correct with her call out. Like, from the very beginning, Raina, who controls a giant dragon and then you guys hit him with rocks. Adam, who watches the coronation procession go by and is like, oh, God, what the fuck have I done? Uh, Jane, Jane Aaron, right? Reneer did deceive her.

I mean, she asked for protection and that she would take her kids to ward and protect them. And Reneer sent her a joke, right? She didn't send her a dragon. She sent her a baby dragon that can't do fucking shit. I mean, that is not great for one of your strongest allies, who's one of the richest in the entire nation and has strong armies that could replenish your reserve and also food and money. These have all been features, not bugs.

And it's a big part of why Rainira in Fire and Blood ends up allyless. She ends up alone, paranoid on the run, ruined. Like, yeah, she started with a bad hand, but she kept betting. Yeah. And not getting a better one. There's something that, like, you were saying here, which kind of makes sense to me now, like, in regards to the arc of, like, Rainira, as you said, she expected people to welcome her and be glad of her because she was the royal. She was the named heir.

but especially comparing the arc that we saw of like Otto High Tower, Otto High Tower knew that you had to earn goodwill, right? Misaria also at the same time knows you have to earn goodwill, and it's just kind of like a less shrewd player than Otto. Otto is much more, I think, cutthroat about it, you know, willing to put his grandchild's baby out there to buy goodwill. And Rainira, you can see that arc from how she was as a child at her half-brother's second birthday. She was brusque.

And so the foundation was there. With potential allies. Yeah, and so you can see how that, as you said, ends up. You're right, these are features, not bugs. And the things that are kind of charming in a plucky 16-year-old, they don't hold up. Aren't charming in a 33-year-old. It can be, but maybe not if they're like the queen and demanding it, you know, in certain ways. You know, you got to be like, you got to be...

But in a 34-year-old. Yeah, you got to be charismatic with that. Yeah, yeah. You know, you gotta learn how to play those cards. As you said, she just, she hasn't learned to play the cards. You have to play the game. You're also talking about, like, I thought you were going to go somewhere else also in regards to her, the way she treats her stepdaughters.

We don't really know how Rainier would have treated her daughter, had her daughter not been stillborn, right? Like, besides the fact that these are, these children are not ones that she birthed and the way that she treats them, how would she have tried? treated her daughters. I don't, I don't know. Like, is there an aspect of it? Because, like, you know, part of the discussion right now is the feeling that Rainier was standing up against misogyny, and it's like, literally Fire and Blood tells us the opposite. No, no, no, no, no. They tell us the opposite. And even her conversation. They tell us that Renira sacrificed that moral.

That and also even her conversation with Reynes in the first season, she's like, Well, I was chosen. I am the named heir. I am not like you. And Rani's was the one pointing that out. Yeah. So I don't know. But also, I will say, like, speaking of the stepdaughters, you know, I'm thinking through, like,

Bela's also storyline together with Adam and, like, Alan. And there's a lot of different ways that this can go. Like, I was thinking about, like, could Baila's treatment or her safety potentially be the reason that Adam goes to Tumbleton because like Adam as you said does not seem super jazzed about like where the administration is going um besides the part where he has to like run because he's declared a traitor and it's it's assumed in the books that Coralie's is the one who warns Adam but now I'm thinking like it could be it could be be Bella right because they were out there riding together but as you pointed out it could be Allen like you know what would the things I do for love

It would be very Jamie. It would be very Jamie and Tyrion. Yeah, because I do foresee that whatever they're planning. They're cooking something with that, and it's going to be emotional, right? Like, I think also it might come from the love triangle, the uncle's love triangle. I love uncles. It's my favorite beach. They actually have a lot.

This is what it would be called, actually. It's actually right, because they actually do have a lot of beaches. They are sailing. Yeah, they literally do. crazy. That's crazy. This is my new favorite adaptation of an ace waft work. Can't wait. Can't wait to air this one. But like I do actually literally think it's being set up for that purpose, right? Like it's going to be heartbreaking. Adam's going to go off. He's going to die and maybe it's, oh, it's cat, Nad, Brandon. Fush it out for me?

Not one, one, but in the fact that like she totally, you know, he's enamored for her. and he's going to go off in war, potentially to die or whatever, and then she grows closer to Allen over time, the quiet brother, the, it's like not one-one, but it's got some, you know, it's got some Brandon Ned Cadillian energy going on. Just flip the ages and the marriages and all that shit. But I think it's going to be really sad however it works out, and I think that's going to change Alan, right, when his brother has to flee from the queen that's offering this prestigious, you know, place by her.

her side to Alan, he's going to have to choose. You've forsook your father last time in turn and then killed the faith. But your brother, the one who's always been there for you, whether your name was Valerian or whole or nothing, right? Your brother, your brother who would sit aside while you marry a girl that he's very much in love with. Like, your brother who would protect you. And he's going to have to go off to die because the queen says so. Yeah. That changed. changes a bitch. I do like the Tyrion Jamie idea. That's, I mean, it changes a bitch. It does.

I think. And then on Adam's way out, I think, I don't have a brother. Or on Alan's way out, what's he's telling Adam, you know, like, Moonboy for all I, no, I'm joking. Oh my God. What if Adam and Bela fuck and then she's pregnant with his kid and Alan passes it off as his own? That would be crazy. Sorry, I just had to cook for a second. I just had to cook.

I'm not against it. And like, because I'm do think, like, no matter how it goes, Adam is going to be the ghost that hangs over Alan and Bela's relationship. Like, he just has to be. So... Yeah. Yeah.

Absolutely. Big agree. Well, speaking of places with many ghosts, let's talk about Tumbledin. There's more ghost stuff, I guess. This was, like, not the most ghosty thing that happens this episode. The Greens. Okay. I wanted to open up with, you know, Darren's standing in that window, and I'm like, is he

going to, like, sing songs from like Avita, you know, it was giving. Don't cry for me to say you. I was giving Rachel Ziegler, like, doing that, like, promo. Oh, I was hoping you were going to say that. That's literally why I said that. It was the same. It is the same. He didn't sing, though.

I was, or talk to anyone out there. So I was like, what? That's true. That's true. That's true. I was captivated by the knighting scene, by the specific vows, by Darren being made a knight by Ormond, not for Gwain. And in fact, like, again, it was one of those moments. I was like on the couch rooting. I was like, let Gwain do it. Come on, let Gwain do it. Don't solely Darren with your sword. Like, that's such an evil thing to put on that boy. He doesn't want to be knighted by you. You're no true fucking knight. Like, just terrible. And then for Gwain to have to watch while Ormond, who, who is no true knight, knight's Darren, who is pure and innocent in Gwain's eyes, and like that Gwain is like, I tried so hard to keep him from being made into a monster. Like the rest of us, I tried so hard to protect him, and he has to watch a monster do it instead.

And just like the framing of it, right? The knighting of Darren, a boy king, made boy king against his will and his guilt, right? his guilt at the people dying for him, another child for the blood god. It should be me out there, he thinks. And now here we are. We're sending another child to die. It was very emotional. I was actually very surprised by how captivated I was.

And I think a lot of that we have to give to Freddie Fox, right? Gwain. Gwain is MVP for me in a lot of ways this season. Definitely up there. His acting was wonderful. I was actually going to say as you were going through this, like, and remembering it, it just dawned me. I was like, Gwain has like really won my heart this season.

Anchored the emotional aspect. Yeah. Like I think he did a really good job of just like being able to help flesh out, you know, all of the characters that that Gwain is around as well as like his own and, you know, love that. And I do think like, what do you think of this? So when Orman's nighting, Darren, they do a different version. version of the vows than any that we've heard. Yeah. What's up with that?

You know, Condal freestyling a little bit. You know what I'm saying? He's doing a little freestyle. No, I'm just kidding. But it is interesting. Like, is it a regional aspect? I was. I don't know.

Is it just Ryan Condole? I wasn't sure if it was that or if it's going and kind of like showing like, because I mean, you know, we did have another nighting ceremony. this season, right? Which was also kind of very, the words, but none of the spirit of it. And this one, like, has a little bit more of the spirit of it, you know? And it, I guess it's kind of just showing, like, it doesn't matter the words to an extent of, like, any night can make a night. So, like, there's something there.

Doesn't matter the night either. Yeah, there's something there. And I, like, cannot quite put it into words in this moment. maybe it'll come to me, like, as we continue speaking, but I think they're playing with that a little. Hopefully, yeah, and hopefully it's like we get it in an interview or something, because I'd like to read the actual authorial intent behind it if there is something, instead of just, like, speculating for two years. It'd be nice to know.

Yeah. I feel like, I do feel it was an intentional choice. I will say that. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I like what you're saying about how, like, the words don't really even matter either. Like, the spirit is what keeps it alive. And the spirit in this scenario is evil, to be fair.

He put evil upon him. That's true. He did do that to our poor. Yeah, I mean, Darren also, like, when my heart would not as much as Gwain, you know, like. Yeah. Well, and that's probably why I like what they've done so much to, uh, to Darren with Gwain. I will say, like, I do actually really feel, I don't know, I do feel that Gwain and Darren, like, you know, by God, somehow they did it.

Somehow they did it with Daron. I didn't, I don't know how, but they fucking did it. Like, actually, the Daron scenes throughout, well, and they're bringing that substance that I think you and I are craving of, like, those extra kind of, like we said earlier, a little navel gaze, just a little like, let's unravel this character a little, and maybe it is the curse and the affliction of not introducing him till now and packing so much character development in one season that somehow we got lucky and got it. They should do that with Bela. They should have just not introduced her to like season four and just packed it all in one episode. At least we would have gotten some character development.

That's interesting. Fuck. Yeah. I don't know. Somehow, macro-dosing the character development worked for Daron. And actually, controversial? This all worked for me, too. Maybe it's just I have nothing left to care about, you know what I mean, now that

Helena's dead, but, like, honestly, this entire battle, the way it was set up, God, the children crying and pissing themselves, that was horrific. and what it should be. Like, that, again, very strong through lines throughout the themes, right, of the children and sending them to battle. And that's all we do is we send the children to battle and sell their flesh.

We marry them off. We kill them. We, you know, like, no child is safe in this war, whatever side you are. That's all I could think the entire time was, like, green or black, it doesn't matter. Death. destruction. Chris and Cole had a couple points.

He, like, two. He did, he did. Two points. He had two points. He had two points. And his actor had many. I'm here to just, like, support. The juxtaposition. The juxtaposition of it all is just like, it was well-dun.

I'm just here to constantly, like, support, I guess. I don't know. Fabian Frankel's career, I guess. I don't actually know. in my heart I do but I haven't actually like materially done much more so sorry um okay coming back to the children yeah to what you're saying and I think you might have more on this later but like you know both sides clearly have no problem harbing children and I think that that is a mechanic that George R. Martin employs often in a song of ice and fire to be like shorthand for like so this person's lost right because like ned says

says as much at the beginning of like, why did we do all this if not to protect children? He says it to Robert. And I do think like it stands out because, as you're saying, like both sides, because Ormans are all like, yeah, they're going to look evil and really bad because they're fighting against and burning children. It's like, like, where is the critical thinking, bro? Because you're the one who put the kids there. You put the children.

Like, how are you not a monster too? And like, there's just no self-awareness. but that's the point of Ormond's character. He's not a self-aware person. No. The Ormond system. Right. Which I guess some people didn't understand. He's clearly supposed to be like incompetent.

Dennis Reynolds. Yes. Oh, right. That too. I mean, that's the same thing. It is the same. Wait, wait. I'm sorry. Is, okay, take this out.

Is Gwayne the Mac? Yes. Okay, that's it. Yes. Maybe. He's kind of twinky though, so like, anyways. John Rockston's D. It really becomes clear that theme of vengeance this season and, you know, like watching Roddy, the ruin, who was called Lord Roderick in this episode, just letting you know. They did call him Lord Roderick. That was crazy. Black Allie said two words. She said so boring. I think about not killing people or something or about taking the right way out of the war, whatever. So she said two words, that was exciting in case anyone wanted to know where my count was up to. And there is something like very clear about Roderick Dustin not

being a good guy. Like he showed up and told us he wasn't going to be a good dude. He's like, I'm here to die for Renira. I'm here to spill some blood. I'm here to fuck it up. is what he did. He got into that battle, fucked it the fuck up, uh, chop, chop, chop, chop, killed that kid. Like, of course he killed that kid. Everyone's fair game. If you have a weapon and if you're using it, I mean, that kid hit him. Of course he turned around. Not right, but

just like I like that they didn't shy away from showing us that. Not unlike in, didn't shy away from showing us and I think that's really important like not shying away from showing us that these people aren't good guys singing with the birds and saying Rinehra's the true queen like if you want to win a war

you have to kill the other side yeah a physical war and I think that'll go well especially as we see whatever they do with um Oscar Tully right because that kids

yeah that's a mad lad and like explicitly like basically called that in in fire blood and I'm glad they said his name because I will say like I turn to my focus group was like what house do you think this character is from and they're like that's cregan stark and I was like that's not cregan stark we saw cregan stark which is what I've been saying all season that like that's it's gonna confuse people it's okay though you know what I will say I'm glad that they kept the background characters kind of background. Weirdly enough, I think that works.

And to that point, like, not important enough to matter. They'll just be surprised when Kreegan's Stark comes back and isn't him, right? And I will, yeah. And again, I'm still, I still feel robbed by the Jace Kregan scenes that I've never got. I know. I know. You know, rewatching some of the early. scenes of this season, I think about, like, Lo Har, right?

Who pulls off the mask and is like, no, you fucking imbecile. I'm here for vengeance. I'm not here to make it right. I'm here to kill. Like, that is why I am here. Decades of transgressions, maybe more against my people. And then ending the season with Tumbleton, Tumblington. You know, where nothing fucking matters.

The lives of children no longer. matter. Men and women's lives don't matter. All that matters is fire. All that matters is blood. All that matters is vengeance and destruction. Like, I very much felt like they landed this part for Tumbleton. So much so that, like, I didn't even question why Damon was there. Okay, I do question any of this stuff. Like, I don't know. But you talking about the vengeance thing, it does now. It does make sense. It clicks because Damon is there for vengeance. That's why they did the whole gold cloaks arc and had Ormond as the orchestrator behind it because it gives Damon a motivation to be like, yo, fuck this guy.

Which is fair. Like, honestly, it's some of the weaker stuff this season looking back. We're going to look back a lot when we talk to Noah, I think. So I'm trying not to look back too much to have stuff to talk about. But like, on look back, yeah, that was weaker stuff. It makes sense now, I think, a little. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. In the bigger scope of things, yeah. Um. Okay. I need you to lock in when I try to explain this concept to you. I need to know if you've heard anything of it. You know how people sometimes call the Targaryans that were mothered by Allison Targ Towers on the internet? Have you heard this phenomenon? I've actually never seen that. I'm going to sound crazy. I have not seen that. No, it's probably good because then I can explain it. Basically, it's like people just like,

differentiating them from the other Valerians, which is like kind of funny in some aspects, right? Because like they are all children of the Ceres. They all have Targary and blood. Like the very, it's a big component of teen green versus teen black discourse is to call them Targ Towers, I think, to kind of like remove the power. of them being a Targaryen, despite they also have dragons, some of the biggest ones, and, like,

are Targaryens, quite frankly. It's very interesting to me. It's an interesting phenomena. I'm not asking you to understand the psyche behind the people that use that. However, it's an interesting concept in that when you reduce an army to their sigil, and you reduce an army to their number, and then, like, people just become a number, and then you just roast them all the same and I felt that concept come through in this episode. And I don't know why I felt like it needed to be tied to that, but like there's something going on there. Like there's something about identity. Like men are men, men are meat. Like you char them and they taste all the same allegedly. We wouldn't know. But like allegedly, you roast them with your dragon and they

probably taste all the same on the inside. I don't think that's true because some meat tastes better than other meat. As a person who's eating meat, not people. Like what kind of meat tastes better than other meat? Okay, like, I mean, you know this. They have different grades for the kind of like for Prime, USDA, A5, Waki. I don't know how we like arranged the people on that. All right.

I don't need to know more. I'm happy. I'm satisfied with the answer. That is the discourse that I had for you. Did any of this make sense? Did any of what I said before you talked about cannibalism make sense? Yes. It does. It doesn't also like, something that I was also thinking in regards to the numbers because I'm a little confused about the numbers in the show. Like this is not me like being, I'm legitimately a little confused because I got the sense that Tom, Tomblaighton felt very threatened that there were very high numbers of the Team Black,

but they're supposed to have less, right? They're supposed to actually have quite less in, but it, the way that their warfare is waged, you can see why, like, that the numbers mattered so much, especially in a Song of Ice and Fire when they were like, their troops are 8,000 strong, they have 30,000 spears, whatever, because it fucking is a numbers game to an extent, and it's kind of fucked up of like, because you're going to lose people in that war, no matter what.

So numbers is about how long can you keep going and fighting. They showed that really well with the blacks this episode, with showing that first wave. I very much, it did give, the battle was actually very thoughtful, how they laid it out. Did you see that cute thing from the House of the Dragons? relaxed within where they're discussing that they had a little 3D model printed so they could play with the toys to figure out how they wanted to do the battle.

Oh, I think I missed that part. I don't know why. Or it was, it might have been in the other one. It might have been in the other one. I don't know. It had to have been that. I might have been multitasking. Sorry, y'all.

Really cool, though. They printed a Tumbleton, like, one 100th-sized Tumbledit, and they had little, like, toys, and they were like doing the stuff, like trying to figure out what it would look like. And I thought that was great. What a great way. Like play house, play dollhouse to figure it out. I will say like I was concerned this season.

And I'm not the only one who had this concern of whether or not they are going to only, they're going to only do one Tumbleton and combine them. I no longer, I do not believe it will only be one Tumbledon. and how devastating this was for Tumbledon really goes to show like, stop, stop, he's dead already, right? Like when they're going to do the second Tumbledon. Yeah. Yeah, I also, I completely understand a lot of people felt that way

because of, you know, leaks that were not true. And then they spread them around the internet. Is that why people had that suspicion? Interesting. Yes, that is why it was a part of a fake set of leaks. that said like I mean I'm sure other people might have have had the same question no matter what

but there were a fake set of leaks going around saying this is going to be the only one which makes no sense because unless you have the leaks for season four who are you to be you know how are you able to say that and I don't even think they got it but I will tell you exactly well there's

a draft I hear me thinks there's a draft so if we can get our hands No I'm not going to read it but the leaks Unless you want to. No, absolutely not. No, the leaks themselves that were going around that were fake, by the way, were like insane.

Like, everyone dies. Like, they were like, Ulf does this, Ulf gets killed, Silver Wing dies. But it was like really bloody and it would have been insane and way too intense. So I'm glad it was not true. I like what they've done. And it kind of reminds me of like Craster's Keep in a way. Like Ulf and Hugh maybe ruling over the bones at Tumbleton. you know of their little kingdom that they have there's something going on there like

drinking out of wine and skulls and you know also i was very uh again watching hew's progression there was something from the beginning of the season where he's talking to olf about like any woman like you could have any woman you wanted if you're a dragon rider or dragon lord like what do you mean this is like the ultimate like becoming a knight and riding a dragon you'll have any woman you want. And I'm like, oh, Hugh is going to do some raping, isn't he? I'm curious where they'll go with that, and you'll talk about that in a bit, but I do think, like, in regards to how this Tumbledon went and, like, what,

what happened with Darren, I kind of feel like a change that we might see in the second Tumbledon. So Darren dies, like, a little before the actual battle, the second Tumbledin, but I kind of feel like they're going to keep them alive. it's interesting that they've crowned him, quote unquote crowned him, because that puts him therefore at odds with Olf and Hugh and them setting themselves up if they choose to do so. And then I might have like, I might have jumped forward. But also I think they're going to keep Daryd alive so that he goes up against Adam on Dragonback

because then you suddenly have like two people that you actually are rooting for. Because you're like both of these like are sweet little potatoes and they're being forced to fight. this is something that I think will happen. I'm curious. What do you think about Darren's suggestion via Gwain that they split the route? I thought that it was kind of interesting that they gave it there because it was suggested, I guess, by Alicent, also in the books. And it continues to just kind of be foreshadowing of like, I mean, what we see is the end state. I do believe that independent North is something that happens in the books as well.

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, yeah, that's fair. That's fair. That's right. Kind of fun. A lot of people compared this, of course, to season eight, the bells. I see that. There is definitely some season eight the bells energy in this, absolutely. Some season eight, Iron Throne. There's a little bit of that. I could understand that. Yeah, I do believe. I thought when we found Darren in the scept with Tassarian, first of all, again, my heart, when Gwain was like, my boy, my boy, don't do it. I was like, oh, my boy, I was a wreck. It was not well.

Yeah. Yeah, it really got me. That got me. And when he was crawling around in the fucking rubble and flesh and ash, and he was like calling out for Darren. very emotional, very moving. Also, that Darren's constantly found in the sept. Reminds me of Egan in season one when Gwain went to find him. He couldn't find him.

So like, you know, oh, look, we found Egan in the sept. But also, he's just like his mama and he doesn't even know it. Always found in the set, surrounded by candles. Yeah, he just loves candles. I do, it kind of makes you wonder how Darren's, gonna feel about the death of the high septon? Mm, like will that drive him against it? Yeah, I don't know.

Hmm. Yeah, I'm curious, like, what his motivation will be. I'm sure finding out Helena's dead will help a lot of motivations against Renira because she's perfect. Yeah. You know, I mean, that's an easy one. we'll see maybe that will push him against really like we need some some more tension there right like he already feels you know oh rinerer can have the crown so what's the tension going to be that

makes him fight protecting the survivors at tumbledin maybe i don't know yeah i'm not super sure that that and like he's got to deal with these two random ass guys who are posting up here now Right. Kind of a hostage in his own home. So again, semi-crastery. Oh, I thought you were to say that's very Helena of him. Oh, very Helena as well. Yeah. And then also, like, you also had Knights Watch is going on as we had the barrels of pitch breaking over people's heads on the wall. That made me think of the Knights Watch as well. So, you know, like, there's a little North going on here. There's a little something going on. Also, how about Damon one eye? I was worried they were going to do that. in his 1v1. Yeah. Yeah, they teased us.

They very much teased us. I thought it was like, oh shit, he's going to be fucked up after that battle. He's going to be, like, ready to go off to die. Yeah, I agree. It's also, like, so I was thinking, you know, this is quite a different battle for Damon because he is no stranger to warfare to battle. We, I mean, he talks to Corleys. This episode, we'll talk about Corlees and Sack, but, like, they,

they've gone to war together, right? But whenever Damon has done so, it's been against another fighting force. He's never, like, invaded another town or city like this. He hasn't gone up against innocence in the same way. He's gone up against soldiers. So you can see that he's kind of like, this was kind of fucked up, huh?

You know, throughout this episode as he looks around. Yeah. Not the vibe. I was, like, really looking. for. Like my wife told me to go off and make shit right. I guess he did it in Kings Landing. Yeah, but this is different.

I feel like this is... But he didn't kill non-combatants, you know, in that way. Again, there's that implication that he's been at war on and off all season, right, and like helping with the battles already. Even so much so as like last season. Yeah. Stepstones war. Even Damon was like...

All right, kids, you've got to move from the door. I really don't want to kill you. My wife literally said, don't make me a monster. Okay, my wife literally said that. Which is actually, well, when you say it like that, that's kind of fascinating that he says, my, don't, because he did. He did make her a monster. Yeah. Your monster, Brand Stark.

Yeah. Oh, my God. I'm not even like really joking and saying that. No, literally because of the connection. Like, is he's about to maybe green seeer question mark, question mark, question mark. I didn't even mean, I mean, like, to the point that we were discussing earlier this episode, right? Like, he's very much molded her into this path. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, that's true. Groomed, some would say. Yeah? Absolutely. Well, toys. Well, speaking of grooming. Let's talk about Corley's who loves to sell young girls off. What?

Corleys who's like, what if Rayna married Daron? Oh. Okay. Well, that'd be cute, but he's not going to live. Now, Corliss, may I tell you about someone that might live at this point? Because he's lived this far. Gwain High Tower, the lord of old town, technically right now. Yeah, so this is something you and I had discussed at the beginning of the season. Okay, I'm just going to jump ahead to this. So, Gwain and Raina, marriage and I think it's going to happen and like it's it either that or he's going to kill himself killing olf that yeah that or like if they get married it's in it's kind of a fascinating like full circle to laner and rainer's marriage la la lavender yeah lane of layner vinder no whatever i thought i thought i thought i had something and i didn't we're not going to do it sorry y'all

it's okay it's not you got to you miss all 100% of the shots you don't take, you know? You know, something I caught in the beginning of the season, when Corleus comes back from after the golet, he tells Reneera that Thailand's probably dead. He's like, yeah, he's probably dead. Now, do you think Rinear took that as Thailand could be dead or Thailand's dead? I feel she took that as Thailand's dead.

She kind of tries to take the optimistic view. And by optimistic, I mean optimistic for her. staggering um yeah so I could see that coming to light next season and them taking it out on Thailand and Corliss who's now their prisoner uh I have a feeling that he's going to stay prisoner for a while very interesting it will be interesting to see if Thailand becomes like a catalyst for freak out like Agen was this episode

so because every little slight after this is going to be more and more and more and more and more and more and more. More and more. Yeah, absolutely. Literally. Yeah, I'm curious, you know, I'm always curious about Corley's storyline. And you can see, I like that they kept him loyal, right? He too is in some ways very loyal. he talks about his honor is the only thing that he really has left at this point, which I think feels very aligned with the Corleys that we know. And him saying that Darren made a promise for peace, it's a continuation, I think, of like his wife's dream for the realm. What if we had peace, you know? Yeah, what if? What if?

What if? Yeah, I'm interested to see, they have him knocked down a couple pegs right now, but he'll come back. he'll bounce back. He will. I mean, even without a finger, you know? Yeah, true. Okay, let's get to the good stuff. The only person to have a full arc in this entire season, Ulf the White. Yeah, so, Ulf, I know you're right, he did have a full arc.

It was incredible. I actually very much enjoy Ulf. I think it was a great plot. I think, you know what, everybody who doesn't enjoy Ulf, I just want you to take a moment and think, like, you're closer today to being Ulf than you are to being Brinira. Okay. I feel like... Just think about that. Let it resonate with you.

Especially because I'm pretty sure, like, either the season or the last season, maybe you basically said, like, we are kind of like... You could probably catch me at the bar having to buy it. That's true. Yeah. I mean, Ulf, what a character. Just incredible. I really appreciated that,

that entire arc this season of him just going full. I mean, when he said fuck you too, I was right to cheer. I was like, yeah, fucking exactly. Exactly. Get his ass, Ulf. Get his ass, because none of these bitches care about you. Did feel bad for the messenger that got his throat slit.

That was kind of fucked up. But, you know, job hazard. I mean, I hope he was getting hazard pay before that, I guess. I guess he won't have it now, so it won't matter because he's dead. The Ormond, Roddy old-kind kind of sequence was just fun. It was just fun. It was a blast. It was good old-fashioned,

cheesy fun. You know what? Ormond's ugly little teeth all beaten in. Roddy making a fucking homophobic joke and just like sticking it up, Ormond. You know what? I prayed for times like these. We're so back. Actually, we're so over, but we're so bad. We're pretty over, like, in terms of the show is going to be over soon. But it was definitely a very classic Game of Thrones, I think,

and gives it, you know, a sense of, like, irony or, like, irony to Ormond's death. That makes sense. I agree. I think I like what they've done with Ulf's character arc. And we'll see how that leads into what they're doing with. Hugh, of course, as well. Like, I think that that Hugh's very much going to be

like broken man shit. You know? Like, that's your broken man arc as well. And I like, we've already gotten kind of even like, I think a head start on the Ulf that you see by the time

second Tumbledin comes along, right? He's just like drunk all the time. I mean, in some ways, like, he's a broken man too, right? Like, I think he also had been he was like drinking but still like having a good time like he wasn't this this right when we first met him last season i mean he was drinking away his issues already you know he wasn't passed out on like while shitting was exploited and abused as a child no but it was a um it was very much like a crush for him right like drinking with the lads at the bar, like, was a crutch for him. He used it to, like, escape from the exploit, the exploitism and the abuse that he dealt with when he was young.

I mean, he was sexually abused. So, of course, he's falling into this pattern now. And now that he has power, actually, like, it's a very powerful character arc of someone who's been abused and exploited and has power. and wants to take vengeance and what that looks like. And how, like, that vengeance, like, not to be, like, spicy on Maine, but, you know, having suffered does not mean that you will become virtuous, right? Yeah.

And I think there's that with Olf and, like, you're talking about, he kind of, he was just burninating everyone, right? And like, as you reminded us, he, he suffered that abuse was sold as a child. And yet, the dragon that he wields is not, does not discriminate, right? Between for who it's burning. He's still killing. He's killing boys who are on that wall as well, boys who were just like him, who have been kidnapped and put into this service, same as he was. So, as you said, powerful arc, good stuff going.

Yeah, and I think it's like the microcosm versus like the entire meta-arc, right? Like burning it down won't fix it. It doesn't fix the hole inside you. Wow. Yeah. And when you've nothing left to burn. You have to set Tumbleton on fire. I went and I saw them.

I actually, I missed that song. Unfortunately, we arrived a little late. But the rest of the show is wonderful. I like the Damon passed out with the Boca fire all around him shit. I like that kind of shit. I'm a sucker for it. So that worked on all fronts for me. Him looking at the dead children like, what, what am I doing?

And then like, yeah, what are you doing? Right? Like we said, both sides kill children. Dragons don't know what's black or green. Dragons don't know what a sigil is, like you said. They don't know what high tower means. They don't know what the Targary. Do you think if you hold your dragon up to the Targaryen sigil and say, it's you, they'll know.

I think they're smart enough that maybe it's possible. But also, okay, you said they don't know black or green. You know how dogs like don't see. I'm not. No, I'm not doing this with you. Sorry. I, okay, you guys, give me your thing. Please comment.

Tell me what colors do you think dragons can see? Like what amount of like, you know, the electromagnetic, like spectrum, et cetera, whatever. Like, what do you think? What do you think they can see? questions that I have. Thank you. You disgust me? I want to know.

I knew exactly where you were going with it. You disgust me. Bees can see more colors than us. Or no, they can see ultraviolet. They can see ultraviolet. I don't know that they can see all the colors, but they can see ultraviolet. So like, what do we think?

What do we think, Dragon Sea? But can they taste the... Skittles? Anyways. The taste that you can see. Oh. also damon did like kill people that were straight up backing up from him and were about to throw their sword down so that was crazy he was kind of in one of his rages you can't really stop him we've we've been there like remember that one guy that he beat the shit out of when he got that bad news like that's so damon but you're like which one um yeah you see damon turn get lost in his rage which i find fascinating I could have watched that shit for another hour.

It was a great battle. That it was. Also felt there was great setup here because while the battle may feel over, Karaxis was chasing after Silver Wing without a rider. And Vermethore was too without a rider chasing after both of them. So I'm like something this battle very much set for me as well is, and last episode as well, like especially. all bets are off with the dragons.

Yeah, I agree. Like, all bets are off. The dragons aren't going to listen to you necessarily. They already weren't. And the dragons don't have alliances unless they do. And now we're going to see dragon go against dragon and break those alliances and have those taboos happen. I feel like ending on that on Karaxes chasing after Silver Wing and Vermethor chasing after them both. That's messy.

That's messy, messy, messy. and that's exactly what I'm here for. Yeah, like, to what extent, like, what do they think is going on? Like, clearly we know why Krakseus is chasing after Silver Wring. He's like, you attacked my person. Vermethore, is Vermethore like... But Vermethore, is he just like... Protect?

Oh, protecting Silver Wing? My wife. That's true because they do have that bond and we've seen that throughout the season. I was thinking something purer. I was like, Vermithor being like, what's going on? Where are we going? Just not going along. No, no, no.

Like, that's clearly not what was happening in that scene. But I was like, it'd be funny. I mean, maybe. When our male cat, Jeharis, when he walks, because he's gotten quite fatter in recent years, you know, he's living a good life in Kings Landing. Yum, y'em, meow. 14 pounds. The vet said the other day he could lose a couple pounds.

I'll have you know last year they said, don't let him gain any more weight. We did. Oops. So he's on a diet now. But whenever he walks by, we go, hum, do-d-do-do-do-d-do-d-d-do when he walks because his little stomach swings. And that's what I think about Verma-thor too when he flies, do-do-do-do-do, what are you guys doing? Yeah, I think he might have, there's possibly, he's like, what are you guys doing? What are you guys doing?

Yeah. And. Hum, do-do, do-do, do-do. Yeah, I, I'm, which way will we see Hugh Bray? Because, like, as you said, you know, is he just going to be out there, like, complete? fucking heel turn, raping women, which I think, like,

would be quite the, quite the turn concerning. That's, like, the exact thing that, like, cat suffered on her way to Tomblaeton. It was, like, where were you to protect me from that? And so he becomes a thing that, like, she hates and then also, or as he finds out, like, all this power, like,

means nothing. It's very much, like, what's the point of all the power in the world? Like, if you can't even protect. the ones that you love. And also, you know, if he decides to set himself up as king, you know, we've, we've had like a very prophecy heavy House of the Dragon series. When are we going to hear? Like, how are we going to hear, like, the Hammer Prophecy, right?

Will we see, I don't know, Ulf and Hugh being like, I don't know, it should be a king and, like, go into that? You know, what's... Mm-hmm. But... Interesting. But also, like I said, I think it will be fascinating to see them go up against, like, because then you're going to have quite a different, like, moon of the three kings,

but not... I don't know that Ulf, like, really calls himself one of those, but you're going to see that in a way as well out there in Tumbledin considering Darren's now a king, and if Hugh starts salving himself as one. So, like, what's up with that? I mean, it's War of the 5K. It's the same thing. It's worth of five kings.

You know, it's the same idea, same concept. You have contenders all over. Yeah. You even have a status. So, yeah, I think I want to see the dynamic since this is not something that you had in the same way in Fire and Blood that I do think will be fun in the show between Darren and Hugh. Like, they struggled, but they were not both kings, you know. That's interesting. That is interesting.

I am interested to watch the man pain. That's going to be a very man pain plot. I'm also very interested to see the like politicking and the reluctance of like how Gwain and Daron are going to have to somehow politic with these men where he was going to just be like raging and olf is like going to be blind and drunk. Yeah. Yeah. And also like fascinating. How does that how does that hold? with Daron being like, I want to protect my people.

I should be out there fighting for them. And if Olf and Hugh are hurting those same people, but again, like, where does it all... Second Tumbleton is going to be, like, crazy. I'm really looking forward to second Tumbleton.

I actually do feel that. I am too. I think this was a good buildup for that. Yeah, I actually very much enjoyed this battle. and like you know me, I'm more of a talking in rooms got fan than a battle fan, so that says a lot. Let's go have some fun, okay, after all that. Let's go have fun. Another place full of ghosts.

Wait, I want to tell them, I want to tell them a little of like what happened to you and me online. Because, like, Chloe messaged me like right after this saying like Alice backstory, but I didn't watch the episode yet. And I misread her message to me as Black Allie backstory. So, like, when I was watching the episode, I was like, what the fuck is Chloe talking about? Like, did I miss it? Like, what is she? Do we have different definitions of, like, backstory? What's going on here?

She meant Alice. My God. I did mean Alice. That is why I typed Alice, but I was distracted. I truly should have known better. And I'll do better next time. Well, we don't have to worry about this for, like, two years. But, like, when, so Chloe watches, like, the episode as it comes out.

I'm watching it a little later because it's a different time zone. And then, you know, I don't like fully look at what she's saying because I'm like, no, no, spoilers, spoilers. So I misread it sometimes. Yeah. That's fair. And see, I just assume you're watching at exactly the same moment as me. Not the same movie. That would be impossible.

But Alice backstoria Heron Hall. Whoa. Yeah. I didn't see that. that one coming. That was like, Ryan Condal punched me in the throat. That was crazy. I like it a lot and actually it works. There's just enough info missing and just enough info we've learned about her in the book and in the show that like, yeah, okay, as you and I have been discussing, write her backstory with potentially like miscarriages and losing children. they really went for it. And then like the long game, the long game of Alice.

Like, okay, I get it. Interesting. Or I don't, but that's okay. I don't, but I want to. I want to get it. Like, what is the long game of Alice? And then I also, it's a great contrast to like Mizarria, right? Because they're both, like, mysterious.

Misaria doesn't have actual, like, real magic, but she's portrayed as, like, a witch, like, character in the way that Alice is, whereas Mizaria has gone. and is like, I've actually made sure I can never have children. Fuck that. But, yeah, I was surprised. I feel like is Alice. I feel like there's like now, like a version of Alice or something, like her ghost that's in modern asswaf.

I'm like, okay, so she met when she's like, hey, these are Raina's eggs. Like, did they hang out? Yes. Literally, that's all I can think about. Like, of course they had to have. out. She probably showed her freaky visions and shit about like the, she probably, Raina probably knew everything. Raina saw everything. Rana probably had nightmares every day. And like, they probably just sat there and they were like, I'm sad about my dead kid a lot. Yeah. Also, like, what if she gave

her sweet dreams instead? What if she gave her, you know, I think of like when Maester Amman dies not to get fucking sad on this podcast. Eliana just sat up really. straight and gave me a look when I said when Maester Amon died just so everyone knows, Eliana just locked in she's like, do it, hurt me. I was actually still being sad about Raina.

Oh, well, I can do both. I think of like when Maistairaman dies and, you know, right before when he's like talking about all these memories so vividly, right? And as the reader were pulled in and were sad and like, what if Alice gave Raina a kindness?

What if she showed her memories of her daughters. What if she showed her memories of her siblings at the end of her days and memories with dream fire and memories of Agen of her brother, right? Gone. What about Viseras, her brother? Gone. What if she got to see them once more, right? What if dreams of her parents and dreams of the happiness they could have had with her daughter's there too? Rada was beloved by her grandfather, you know? She was. Yeah. Maybe Alice. gave her those niceties.

Instead of showing her nightmares, maybe she did something for the pain. Yeah. They like started a goth band together. Yeah, I'll die. I'm really upset right now. I think that's like what happened. So, and the place was like, probably had more upkeep back then too. I will say like Alice's backstory does, in my opinion, kind of lay the foundation pretty

well for our friend Gray's theory about like what happens to Damon, how like he goes to become a greenseer, and the idea of someone being mysteriously still there for a very, very long time. Mm-hmm. That's all. Interesting. And like the idea of like, Heron Hall and the God's Eye and the Isle of Faces, like, being this ageless, timeless place where time doesn't necessarily move in the same street.

as everything else. Mm. Yes. Yes. I'm ready for season four, which is a problem, because season four will not be coming out for two years. Hmm. Hmm. Well, that's okay.

We have a night of the seven kingdoms next year. So that's, like, fun. Yeah, that's fun. Are we not? I don't know. But it's not hot D. It's not. But it is fun.

It'll be fun. It'll be fun. We have a sworn sword. That'll be weird to see adapted because it's such like a different pace. I agree. I'm very curious to see how they do that. So talk about pacing. Well, we did have one scene full of brevity in this episode, which was brothers. I very much enjoyed the Agen and Aeman scene, even though it's for no reason. It reminded me of the Damon Viseris scene in the throne room, where Viseria. was throwing Damon on the ground, and he's getting the shit beat out of him, and he's like, brother, you will behave.

Very much of that same dynamic, though, I like getting to see them as the Damon Vassaris themselves. Obviously, even to Aiken's looks, and Damon is now almost one-eyed, for what it's worth, right? Like, he got a little gougy on, so maybe he'll look like Amon, and it'll all match perfectly like poetry. tree. It very much also was dying that like Alice was looming in the background when they were threatening to like, when Agin was threatening to kill Aymand, she was like, can you do it by the tree? Sorry, like on the hardwood, not the carpet. Thank you. Go feed the tree. Just got the place furnished. Yeah, feed the tree. If you could just do it by the tree, like you can tell she's so anxious,

like, please don't spill the blood here because then I have to put it into a bucket. Then I have to go pour it to the tree. It's like, can you just do it out here? Almost like, like, you. You know, It's like fucking little shop of horrors. I don't know this reference. I'm sorry. Oh my God. Someday. I, okay, you kept saying like, brother, and it makes me think of like, have you seen that video where it's like, brother, may I have some oats?

It's like these two pigs. My God, no. I will send it to you. I do want to say that. It like originally started as like, I think, I don't know if it started like as a fortune green text and then they adapted it with two pigs. And I will send it to you. Please, please. I have some oats.

No. I, as you said, this was a very brief scene. What's going on here? Love for, like, to say something like, I did think it was hilarious. You know, you're talking about Alice and that being, when I mean's like, she is my betrothed. I was like, bro, what? I think this is moving so fast for me. I was like, no wonder, Alison's like, who is this woman?

This is my betroth. But they did have very tender scenes. Like, you know, Amon was like, I can fix her. And love that for them. They had very tender kisses. Oh, yeah. But yeah, I kind of, this was left very open-ended in a way that did not feel intentional. Like, you know, you have this all set up.

They're like, did you know Darren's like crowned himself king? blah, blah, blah, blah. And they're here and they've met. And then, and. and that's it. Like, what happened? Where's Thailand? You know, what happened to him?

Larry's has just, I guess they kind of wrapped up that arc for this season. He's absolutely going to come back. But I guess we have some amount of closure there. But yeah, I was like, so we just left this. We just left this conversation hanging. Yeah, it was an interesting choice, but a good place to kind of end with them to not commit to anything, maybe. I guess. And to give it some freedom for them in the plot.

I do really think like it would be cool to see them burninate together instead of each other, right? Like seeing them together united in burning down the countryside and the riverlands. And since that is what Amon goes out to do for a little bit, right? Like he does go and burn some shit, which is what Damon like goes to put Nen to. He's like, all right, I got to go put Nent to the pretend king in his little castle burning shit all day long. So it would be cool if Agen does that And like, yes, we've said that people know That Agan's out there now

But it still keeps it kind of like a is here, isn't he? Yeah I don't know, one army that was burned That doesn't, you know, so I could see where we could play it as like Is here, isn't he? And he's fainting and we can't find him. I do see the frustration in that we did that this whole season Hunting for, you know, like Vagar, hunting for

And so it goes back to what you were saying, right? of like, what are we doing? What are we doing? We're just moving people around for the sake of moving them around. And I kind of felt that way a little about, I guess, Allison throughout the past few seasons. Well, she had nowhere else to fucking go, bro. I get it.

I do get it. I see the frustration. I don't know. I don't know the answer. The answer is hire me. I mean, yeah? We'll do it. Not for free, but we'll do it.

We'll clean up your mess, HBO. I don't know. Like, yeah, I'm not very good at cleaning. We introduce mushroom in the very first scene of season four. We introduced Mushroom, Season 4, Episode 1. It's not actually a crazy idea. If they can do it for Duren, we can do it for Mushroom. It's not like, it's not a crazy idea.

I don't think so. Eliana, I believe you could do anything that you put your mind to specifically. I mean that. And then you're like, we can clean it. And I was like, we just had this discussion. Chloe asked me and she's like, what's your favorite cleaning activity? I was just like, none. And she's like, but like cleaning.

Not even like favorite, just like one that reaches flow state. Like the one that like is the least bad for you is really what I meant. No. See, incredible. Incredible. Well, I look forward to dumb and dumber next season. I'm sure they will bring us lots immense amounts of joy. Oh, I thought you mean like, what do you mean by dumb and dumber?

Are we talking about me and not wanting to clean? I'm confused. No. Egan and Aemond is what I meant. But, you know. Oh. Oh, oh. Whatever you choose to see in that statement, I want you to believe.

Yeah, sure, sure. I, yeah, this is my betroth. Well, we chose to end the episode on a really happy note. I mean, so did they. I'm just fucking kidding. Kind of. I wish that I could die and they could just take me in her place. You know, take me instead.

That's so darned you to say. It was not poorly done. Yeah. I actually rewatching this season, Helena got a good amount of time. I would have liked them to really amp it up a little more in season two. Yeah, true. But all things considered, all things considered, yada, yada, yada, et cetera, et cetera. They did work it out fine.

The pacing was decent. And her death definitely had multiple root causes. First of all, there isn't always a root cause for taking your own life. Yeah. There's not always one root singular cause, so it is not very dimensional to think that there is. She was very much trapped. There was no freedom.

Every route to freedom ended in death and ended in losing something that she loved. There were no trade-offs to be made. The force-feeding scene was terrible. That was awful to watch. Loved the work with the tapestry. I thought that was really great. I enjoyed seeing the, or not to have,

It's an embroidery. Sorry. I enjoyed seeing the the reveal of it and then like the bedazzling. I liked listening to what they kind of talked about of the strings being pulled out and the idea of Helena like pulling the strings out in a fit

as she embroidered it. And Fia Saban talked about it as like kind of a meta work that Helena knew that once she was done embroidering it, she was done. Like her story was done. The thread the threat of the fates ran out right at the end. And I was very affected by that.

The beetle, I found that very gripping. I don't know if it means something or if it's like a clever nod at something. Emmett and I were trying to bust this down a little bit. Like what could it mean? We won't know until it's in front of us probably. But that she says that the beetle emerges on the cusp of summer and has lots of colors, blue, gold, purples, and looks like a turtle. Have you ever noticed it?

You can only find it in King's Landing. It sustains itself on the waste of other creatures. It's beautiful. Hmm. Yeah, I don't know what it means. I just realized, it only stood out to me now, though, the language of it looks like a turtle. So. No, that makes me think of George.

Same. Blue, gold, purple. I'm not going to think too hard about this right now. We have another thing we're going to come back to. Yeah, I don't think I'm going to get it. But as you were saying, like, I actually do. do think you were saying that Ulf had like the very, I actually thought that besides the part where they could have brought more Helena in in season two, I do think like they did Helena's

arc really well this season. Like I do absolutely see the line, the string that was there. I thought it made a lot of sense to me. Coming back to the beetle though for a second, like, you know, that's said in the context. She's saying it to Rainierra. And you know, there's kind of an irony there of, like, Rainier's inability to appreciate the beetle and even the embroidery. She just kind of, like, takes it from Helena. She has no curiosity of, like, the fuck are you working on here, right? Like, had she ever thought to stop and look and appreciate the beauty of the embroidery, appreciate that artistry? Maybe she would have seen what Helena was embroidering and been like, I feel like this means something. What does this mean?

She's always like, Helena, have you seen the thing? Like, have you seen this? It's there. in the embroidery. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. That is a, like the prophecy is in front of you. It's right there. The answers are in front of you, Rainira. Yeah.

Open the scrolls. Open the scrolls. Speaking of open the scrolls, okay. I do think like, I thought this was pretty obvious. and you were talking about it as well, you know, like, she was, she was trapped, right? Like, I've seen criticism of, like, why would she kill herself and the baby? And, like, worried about, like, her own daughter, right? When she refused to abort the baby, why would she kill herself?

And I'm like, I feel like that has missed the point of what happens even in the scene where she refuses to take the mootty. Helena says, it is mine. She does not say, I love this child, I wish to bear it. She says, it is mine. which I think is the point that we've kind of been getting drilled into us since season one if we do want to talk about what does misogyny look like? What does patriarchy look like? This is Helena saying this is mine and that's like the point.

You know, because so little of Helena's life has been hers. Like not with Rainierra, right? Like I think many people point out, the force feeding is filmed in a way that mirrors Viseries and Emma. Yes. In that bed. In the bed, in what happens... Bedroom. Yeah, the birthing bed, right?

And that's... There's something there because, you know, in that moment, Emma's body isn't hers, and she dies for this child to be born, right? And here, Helena's agency is taken away, and she's being forced to live, right? She doesn't even get to... She's being forced to eat for the baby, I guess, allegedly. her body isn't hers there. It isn't hers when she's with Egan, who, you know, if he returns,

will continue to keep her as a prisoner in a way. Like, he can't quite rape her, I guess, with his penis, is my understanding of, but that doesn't mean he cannot hurt her or assault her in other ways. Like, Misaria on the way out is telling Helena, your unborn child is the hostage that will be used to keep her, and Helena realizes, well, this whole time she's been the hostage by which her mother has been kept prisoner as well. If she's stayed, alive will her daughter Jehara be a prisoner for I mean her daughter's going to be like a prisoner no matter what the continuation of a cycle right it's cyclical like this is what Reneira's mother did and what the mothers before her did and what the you know like that's what Daya did yeah yes exactly and

like her body wasn't hers it wasn't hers it goes back and back and back and it does Alyssa Alyssa Alyssa was groomed into it she was groomed to know from the very start she was marry her brother and give him a ton of babies. And the first thing that she says when they're married is, well, I'm going to fuck him all night long. And it's great. And I'm going to ride him more than my dragon. But like, she'll never have known if there was another life for her. Like Helena asks Allison, why were there no other lords that asked for my hand? Helena, Helena is the hostage by which Allison has been kept prisoner. Jihara will be the hostage to keep Helena prisoner.

goes on and on. Like, her staying alive doesn't, doesn't, like, necessarily, I mean, it doesn't, it doesn't help you her because, you know, I think it does kind of fuck you up if your parent commits suicide. But, um, yes. The point, the point is that, you know, the point was not Helena wanted to stay alive for the baby. The point was, it is mine. And in her life, she had no choice. And so the conceit of this moment is that if Helena's life, she was, you know, she was, you

Helena's life has never been hers. The one thing that can be hers is her death, right? Like, it wasn't about the baby, but about if anything in the world was hers. And tragically, like, it was her death. And I don't know that... I'm not saying that to, like, glorify it, but, like, that is... That is the point being put forth by the story that I thought was kind of obvious. In her final conversations with Reniro that we see on scene,

Fia had actually taken inspiration from Bernard Shaw's play St. Joan for the Ark, and she talked about in an interview that Joan gives a speech to the people that imprison her, and she says, you think life is not being stone dead, but there is more to life, because I might as well not be alive if I can't hear the church bell and the lambs and the wind and the trees, and that's what living is to me, and that's what Fia presented to Ryan Condal and Sarah Hess And she got to really work that in. And she said that that was her reason for being, her religion. It's taken away from her.

And in that way, she's been killed. She's been saying to Reneira, there's no mercy in keeping me alive, but taking away everything from me that I consider living. I mean, to go back to a thing we say about in her descendant, not her descendants, but whatever, a Targaryen descendant. You know, look at your call, look upon your call and see what life is worth when all the rest is gone. Men's lives have meaning. Not their dads, but... And hers didn't...

I'm not saying, you know, to romanticize, like, that her death and me, but it was the one thing she had power over. And, like... Yeah. Imagine, like, you know, to the point, every single one of your choices is taken that this is the one thing you feel you can have power over, how you go out. And, like, for some people, that is something they feel.

I will also say like not, random but not that random because they chose to make Helena a dreamer very much aligned with Brand's dream seeing all the dreamers impaled upon the spikes, the ones you could not fly. Yeah.

Did you say that last episode? Yeah, something like that. We talked about it last episode, how it works, but I don't think we did it with the spikes. Yeah, because I'm like, I feel like we've discussed it. Well, we're always discussing everything, everywhere, all at once. That's how Helena feels too. Like in all time streams. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Depressed all over again. Thanks, Helena.

Oh. Interesting. I don't feel depressed. I feel indignant in this moment. Helena really busting down Reneira and telling her like, you don't actually care. I know this because everybody tells me they care even though they don't care. Like, don't fucking lie to me. I really appreciated that. I loved her busting her down and the entire, like, you're ugly. Everything in here is ugly. What you become is ugly. I was like, okay, get your sister. Like, is this what having a big sister is about? Way in. Way in in the comments. I would love to know. I hear that it was very older sister to younger sister. That's what I'm hearing from the street. I hear this and I retweeted something about like from last episode where Rainier is standing over

Helena and being creepy and waking her up and people are like, that's just what older sisters are like. And I was like, oh, okay. I saw your retweet that. I wondered if it was for research. It's, I just, I was like, okay, yeah. Sure, maybe it is. I mean, like, I think I would, I would be that older sister if I were one. Like, I think I would absolutely creep and stand there next to someone's side of the bed and just stare at them while they're asleep to creep them out when they wake up.

I would do that for sure. Hmm. So maybe it's not a sibling thing. Maybe it's just a weirdo thing. Have you thought about this? I mean I don't know I am technically an older sister

An older sister so like maybe it is in Hara Who knows? Who knows? I liked earlier in the season when Ulf kind of read Renira Down and was like, do you know what they say about you? That you're a homeschooled freak! Just kidding But that is basically what he said to her

And then Helena did the same thing in this episode So really great kind of bookends of the season where you have the two good characters. Just kidding. The two characters with arcs. No, actually for real. They are, though. I guess Alan.

Yeah, telling Reneira off. Alan's getting there. I definitely think he's heading for legitimization town. You know, you kill the Pope. You've got to get a real last name for that. Right? You've got a... Yeah?

Yeah? Alan pulled himself up by the bootstraps and said, fuck Catholicism. Yeah, I mean, basically. Which, like, fair. Very fair. Very fair. Because all systems, like, actually being interesting nowadays.

It's making a huge comeback. I'm like, should I bring out my confirmation name? Oh. Like, should we have a little party? Oh. Yeah. I mean, like... It's Mary.

George also, you know, that's why he got two R's in there. He's got a confirmation name. It's railroad. Or it's big balls. depending on which Big Balls Martin anything could be the case in my canon

in the world I'm living in tragically I did cry at the butterfly scene because I'm a pussy-ass bitch with no spine That was sad I shut a tear I shed a fucking tear

I was like oh man and now she's coming back to that after having to have tried to kill her son and like not being successful and like now she's going back and all I could think with those butterflies

are what she said to Helena before she left that they would walk into the sun together. She's going to be like, what was it all for? You know, like what was it all for? Yeah. She's going to just say, arrest me, I don't want to do shit anymore, just put me in the fucking darkness.

Do you think she's going to, do you think she's going to think Rainiera did it? Right? I mean, I think that all bonds will be broken. So yeah, probably. Do you think Mizaria is going to be the one saying that Rainira did it? Either way, Reneer did do it. Spreading that, yeah, probably.

Do you think this is a random-ass thought I had, like, watching the episode earlier? Do you think Lary's is going to be the shepherd? Interesting. That's a tinfoil. I did feel having Roddy get his book arm cut off like it does in the, you know, his arm gets cut off in the book. It made me think about the shepherd again. obviously the shepherd is like nigh but i'm like yeah i'm like knowing that ryan condo has read these books a lot now like there's a non-zero chance that hasn't been thought of just saying like

that he made sure that was included we might get other people with no arms i feel like it has to be because like roddy's just like not he's just not catholic what if roddy survived and now he's that's out oh he's a born again christian stop it uh-uh i'm i quit i quit i quit circle folks full circle she did it she brought it all the way around born again oh actually no wait eliana scrolled the very top of our document and look at the very first subtitle queen's landing he is risen you did it well okay i mean like that is like the term that is literally the term for that many christian people use to self-identify yeah he is risen r i z z z e n maybe maybe maybe what Rainier should have tried to do is be more risen.

She should have had more Riz with... Overall, I can't believe... It's so surprising to me that you're like, this was not better than the last two seasons, because to me, I loved this more than the last two seasons. I loved, like, the first five episodes, I think, of this season. And I'm just, like, confused about the last three. I know what happened. It's because 6, 7, 8, and not 7, 8, 9.

No, that's so true. That's what happened. Yeah, that's why you don't like it. That's so true. Remember when I said, what was it, 6, 7, 8? No, no, I tried, I said something, and no, it was wrong. I said the numbers all wrong. It was very wrong. Yep, every time. I will say it really sucks that once again, Rob Peter, Pay, Paul, like you said, six episodes, so what's next season? Six episodes. I get, I just feel like why, why are we, is that the cycle repeating the mistakes of the past? I don't know. Not to like, do, compare it, but like, how not?

They were, they weren't given the go-ahead to have 10 episodes. They were given the go-ahead to have eight. Why were they not given to go-ahead to have 10? Do you think Ryan Condo wanted to have eight? I don't know. Because HBO's poor. Eliana, they're poor. They went through a murder.

And it was a fucking shit show of a merger and acquisition with Warner. It went poorly. They wasted fucking money out of their buttholes during it. It'll never be the same. They're telling all of their people, write less, cut episode, save money, top line, bottom line, P&L. Like, this is the world we live in. Media's ruined. It was already ruined, but now it's really ruined.

I just, I don't know. I'm just sad. I mean, if they just added one episode, rebalancing. out things and had just a couple extra scenes for each secondary and tertiary character. Like, it would be that much better. But you know what? At the same fucking exact time, then everyone would complain it's too slow. Because everyone's complaining now it's too fast suddenly when all they complained about

for a whole year during season two, sorry, for two years since season two, I should say, is that it was too slow. So I, okay. It's definitely not going to be too slow next season. It's going to be too fast next season. Congratulations. I long, okay, I long for there's an alternate universe, right, in which season two got 10 episodes, which means that this season would have had eight to 10 episodes.

But like, I just like, I feel as though they would have had more of a green light if people had loved season two because it had those other two episodes. because like it would it it fucking hits if you do that which I mean again I still think I still think even in season two I do believe even if they had had those two episodes there even still should have been more fleshed out regarding jace's storyline and like other end bella and Helena like I I will still think that there should have been more but it woulda you know yeah alas it does not do to dwell on roads not taken. We will talk about it when we return from the war that is waiting for House of the Dragon two more years.

I mean, we could probably, I guess, talk about some version of, we don't have to talk about roads not taken. But we're going to talk about the roads taken, though. In two weeks. Yeah. Yeah, we will be back with Unleash the D,

a final season three episode of Unleash the D with our friend Noah at Samantha Tarley online. I look forward to having them back into the canon. We will see you then for those looking to, you know, chill after the season. You know, take it down a notch, retrospective, digest it a little bit. That's what we're going to do.

We're going to have fun. We're just going to have fun. We're going to have fun. You know, just going to have fun. By diving, in my opinion, really deep. Because I feel like Noah has really deep thoughts. And like Noah has like really sharp analysis. and that's what's going to happen unless Noah does not want to do that because we are unworthy,

which is fine. I do feel unworthy. I don't know about all that. Eliana is unworthy. If more hot D is not your thing, crazy, fucking insane, then you can expect us back on September 11th when we return with Tyrion 1 in a clash of kings. excited to get back to King's landing in the modern era and hoping Tyrion doesn't burn it down

Yeah, unlike here, what happened at The Treasons at Tombladen. I can't, like, not do that now. I'm sorry. Like, that's... I can't not. You know, I mean, make sure you tune into Tyrion because something I really...

I mean, hopefully I can bring this up in our Unleash the D, but teasing forward, We'll probably talk about the dragon seeds in the main plot, too. Because I think we have some main plot dragon seeds in a song of ice and fire. Who could be the betrayers? I mean... Whoa. Boom.

Wow. Kapow. Wow. Thanks so much for listening this season, everyone. We'll be back. As always, I've been one of your hosts, Chloe. And I've been another one of your hosts, Eliana. uh

wow bye fuck