Girls Gone Canon Cast - House of the Dragon: Unleash the D E6 Ft. John Picacio

Episode Date: July 29, 2022

  Note - a tracking error was found at upload and the track was replaced immediately. You may need to clear your cache and re-download the episode- but it's worth it!     To go forward, we must go back - back to 2008, 2010, 2011, and all the years before and after, to when the powerhouse GAME OF THRONES steamrolled a nation every single Sunday night.  Chloe is joined by John Picacio, artist of the 2012 ASOIAF Calendar distributed by RANDOM HOUSE. Not to mention John's iconic artwork for X-MEN, STAR TREK, the NINTH HOUSE, ELRIC and more. (And you should hear about his Hugos... Titles, titles ;) ) John recants some of his own experience during GAME OF THRONES' explosive birth as we look forward to the many crownings to come in HOUSE OF THE DRAGON. Follow John's work - and yes, get your very own Sandor and Sansa print, like Chloe - below: https://johnpicacio.com/ @johnpicacio (on twitter!) Join us at our Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/girlsgonecanon Follow us on Twitter: @GirlsGoneCanon Intro music - Modern Jazz Samba by Kevin MacLeod Link: https://incompetech.filmmusic.io/song/4063-modern-jazz-samba License: https://filmmusic.io/standard-license

Hello and welcome back to Girls Gone Canon. Well, Girl Gone Canon. I am one of your hosts, Chloe, here today to talk about Unleashing the D, the House of the Dragon, that is. Episode six featuring one of my friends, John Picassio. Hello, hello. Hey, hey, how are you? I'm excited. I'm so excited to talk today with you about everything Thrones and A Song of Ice and Fire. And if you don't, I mean, there's no way you're listening to this podcast as an A Song of Ice and Fire fan. And you're not at least familiar with some of John's works.

We will leave loads of links below. But John has worked with some authors like George R.R. Martin, if you've heard of him, like House of the Worm, Wild Cards, and of course, A Song of Ice and Fire. You've worked with Chris Roberson on the X-Men Returns comic, which I've actually read. Amazing. And some of his other works. And for the Grishaverse fans out there, you've worked with Lee. You've worked with so many different artists and book covers and different companies that it's just such an extensively interesting career. I'm excited to

chat with you on. And I don't want to really brag for you, but you're on what, three Hugos? Three? Three so far. Yeah. So far? Oh my God. You have more titles than Daenerys Targaryen. You have more titles than Daenerys Targaryen. The field has been good to me. I'm grateful. You know, I mean, basically I do the work, I put it out there and if people enjoy it, then I'm happy that it's, it's connecting and you know, I'm not here for the hardware, but, but when it shows up, I'm very grateful for it. So thank you to everybody. He's put me in those positions.

Yeah. The, a song of Ice and Fire 2012 calendar is like, it's some of the best art depicting the book characters in, you know, a lot of this community. And I mean, it's crazy to watch that calendar itself evolve, as we'll talk about, because every year there's been someone new to really take the reins and bring something beautiful out of their imagination of George's works. And it's crazy to look at. I was reading the AMA you did on Reddit a long time ago, you know, seven years ago, and I know a lot has changed for you, but I was really impressed by just talking about the evolution of art and how you've managed to stay passionate and stay involved and have a community and grow it into something more than just a job. And I think that's something that

this fandom, the Song of Ice and Fire fandom is really about. And it's not just that for you, right? Like you do some beautiful La Loteria work of artwork for what is, in my opinion, it sounds like my family with bingo or with Uno, right? Uno especially is, oh God, violent. Yeah, no, totally. It's very much Mexican bingo. We can definitely get into that one. But yeah, I'm still working on that project. I have people all the time pinging me saying, hey, when are the next cards? Because I've been working on sort of one by one in between all my other work, because Loteria is really for me. It's a personal project,

but it is meant to be something that is going to be a commercial vehicle in the future. And I think that future may be coming sooner rather than later, but there's some other things that have to happen first. And I can maybe touch on some of those as we go along. I guess maybe the first thing to do, I guess, I mean, you're the one leading the dance, but do we want to talk about Song of Ice and Fire and

kind of where I came into that fold? Do you think that's interesting to people? I think so. I have heard a little of the story, but not firsthand. So I would die for a firsthand, but let's talk about you and that guy named George R.R. Martin that we all know. Yeah, absolutely. So, I mean, I used to, well, I still do. I still do attend conventions, have a lot of friends that have come from the convention community. You know, my career starts off, I guess, in 96 is when I did my first SFF book cover. And that was for a Michael Moorcock book

called Behold the Man. At the time, I'm an architectural intern. You know, my degree was in architecture. And at the time I was working in architecture full time and doing, you know, trying to chase this dream of becoming at first a comic book artist, actually, was what I wanted to do when I got out of school. But then when I was asked to do that Moorcock cover, I first turned it down because I really wanted to do comics more than do science

fiction covers. But the publisher was persistent. And I think when I actually got to meet Mike Moorcock, that really solidified that this was something I wanted to do. I did it. And the process of doing that cover completely changed my life. I mean, so this would be around 95, 96 or so. It was falling in love is what it was. I fell in love with the process of creating book cover art, being a part of a book publishing endeavor. And I wouldn't say I fell in love with Moorcock. Let's not get crazy.

But he had a huge influence on me about the way he carried himself, about the way he treated people, and just his general magnificence, quite frankly. And I thought, God, these are the kind of people that are in this field, which those are pretty rare, I found out. I want to be here. So I kind of put the comic book dream aside and started putting together a portfolio so I could pursue science fiction fantasy book cover work. So that's like in the mid nineties. I don't go full time until 2001, but now we fast forward to 2008. So I've been in the business at that point, about a decade or so. And at that point,

I'm still schlepping around this little metal portfolio under my armpit. It was like surgically attached to my armpit back in those days, because I was always hustling for work at these conventions. And honestly, publishers were approaching me and editors and art directors would approach me for work. But a lot of times it was me trying to engage with authors and just trying to meet them. And I had always heard that you're not going to get work by meeting authors because they don't hire. It's the publishers and the editors and the art directors who do. But that never really affected me. I always thought I just enjoyed being around the writers. I enjoyed being around the people who were creating the work. It wasn't important to me whether they could hire me or not, but it was something about being part

of that, I don't know, part of that soil, so to speak, that it was just very important for me to build those relationships for nothing other than just, I just enjoyed the people. I'd done some pretty significant work to that point. But when I walked up to George on the Saturday night at a Worldcon party, he was talking to a bunch of his peer group. And I remember walking in there with Lou Anders and Chris Robertson and a few other friends at the time. And we saw George and I said, hey, you think I ought to walk up to him and ask him if I could show him some stuff? And they kind of said, yeah, you know, give it a shot. And I was really nervous about it. I remember that.

And I didn't want to bother him with his friends. But I walked up and kind of just took a moment when I thought there was a pause. And I kind of tapped him on his shoulder. And I said, hey, I'm John Picassio. And I don't want to bother you right now. But if there was a time maybe tomorrow when I could maybe show you some pictures of my stuff, I've got some stuff in this portfolio, I'd love to show them to you. And I was really nervous.

And he just looked at me. And he kind of gave a little smirk. And he said, I already know who you are, John. I was like, how do you know who I am? Just started rattling off covers. I'll never forget that. He just rattled them off off the top of his head. And I know two of the Moorcock covers were right there on the top of his head. And he rattled off a couple of other recent ones that I can't even remember at this moment, but he just popped them right off the top of his head. I was really impressed by that. I had no idea. And he said, don't worry. The exact quote was, don't worry, we'll work together some. And I said, that's really cool. And he said, yeah, I'll catch you later. And that was that.

And I walked away with Chris and Lou and my friends. And I said, that was the nicest blow off I've ever seen in my life. A class act. And you know, he's blowing me off, but that was so amazing. So I was super impressed with him. And I thought it was really great. A year later, I'm in Montreal at the 2009 Worldcon. And I'm at a party on a Saturday night talking with my friends. And all of a sudden, this guy walks up right behind me and he taps me on the shoulder and it's George. He says, remember that conversation last year? So let's go finish it. Let's go down to the bar in the basement. remember that conversation last year? So let's go finish it. Let's go down to the bar in the basement. And I said, right now? And he said, yeah, right now. So I excused myself and we went

down to the basement and got a couple of drinks. And he said, have you ever read my Song of Ice and Fire books? And I said, are those the big fat ones? And he says, yeah, John, those are the big fat ones. And I said, I haven't read them yet. But he said, would you like to? And I says, yeah, John, those are the big fat ones. And I said, I haven't read them yet. But he said, would you like to? And I said, I would love to. And so at this point, I was thinking he was maybe going to pitch for me to perhaps do a cover for one of these books. And so I was listening for this and listening as he started to unfold what he was approaching me about. And it didn't go that way. He was asking me if I had seen this calendar illustrated by a guy named Michael Comark. He said, there's a calendar that wasn't very well distributed. He said it was put out by a company called, or a couple of guys called the Dobble Brothers. And he says, have you seen the calendar? I said,

I've never held one. And I said, but I am familiar with a couple of the pieces of that artwork by this guy Comark. I said, it's beautiful stuff. And he said, yeah, it is. I love it. He says, but it's too bad nobody's seen it. What I want to do though, is I want to create a calendar. How do I say this? He said it more like a calendar lineage or a legacy is really the word he used that would be attached to my Song of Ice and Fire books. And he says, you know, it's, I want something not unlike the way the Hildebrands and Alan Lee and all these great artists were always doing calendars for the Lord of the Rings franchise. I want that for my Song of Ice and Fire series. I said, that would be amazing.

He said, yeah, would you like to be a part of it? I was like, I would love that. I was like, which month would I be doing? What would all of them? And I said, what do you mean? I said, I'd be doing the entire calendar? He said, yeah, yeah. I want you to do a calendar.

Just like Comark did one, but yours is going to be seen while his wasn't. Because yours is going to be put out by Random House, the mothership. You're going to, yours will be in bookstores everywhere. And I said, has anybody else done one but Comark? And he said, no, you're going to be the first. I mean, Comark's the first one, really. But, you know, again, you know, as much as I love the work, it just didn't get put out there. Whereas this one's going to be the first. I mean, Comark's the first one really, but you know, again, you know, much as I love the work, it just didn't get put out there. Whereas this one's going to be out there. He says, would you, do you want to do it? And I said, can I think about it? And he said,

what do you have to think about? And I, he was so patient with me because I said, look, man, and I remember telling him I've got 13 covers right now. Cause I remember how bad my schedule was at that time. I was literally doing 13 covers, which I can't even fathom right now. I mean, that literally is a different person. There's no way I could be juggling 13 covers at the same time at this point in my life, because my life's a lot different now. But at that point, I was, no joke,

literally juggling 13 covers across a number of different publishers, all in different stages of development. And I was doing all the interiors for Elric Sword and Roses, which was going to be the next omnibus from Random House Del Rey. And I was doing all of this at the same time. And so when he asked me this question, I literally kind of rattled off all this stuff. And after vomiting all of these titles at him, he said, well, you've got a choice, don't you? And I was like, yeah, it's a tough one. And in my head, I'm thinking, man, you just need to pass on

this. This is not a good idea. This is not a good idea. And even as I'm thinking that I just, the word yes came out of my mouth. Yeah. I count me in. Yes. I want to do it. And I remember walking away thinking, I think this is going to be maybe one of the worst decisions of my life, but I just really loved his passion for what he was trying to do and his belief in me. And so fast forward to a few days later, I'm back home from Worldcon. I received a contract via email and I faxed it in. I agreed. And I remember getting a phone call within like five minutes of sending it into Random House.

And it was George. And he said, well, congrats. Welcome to the family. And I was like, good to be here. Did you already know that I faxed the contract in? He said, yeah, they just told me. I was like, wow, that was quick. He was waiting.

I guess he will fax that kid and get on his ass and tell him, he's like, someone send him a text and send him the email because he's going to do it. He has feelers. He always has had feelers out there. His network of minions is vast. We know this. And so he knew. And so he said, congrats.

Welcome to the family. And he said, I signed a contract today too. And I said, what did you sign? He said, well, I just signed a deal to do these books as a show for HBO. I said, really? Wow. He said, yeah. So I said, I wanted you to know, because what you're doing is a series of illustrations based off my characters from Song of Ice and Fire.

And what I want you to do is whatever happens with this HBO thing, I don't want you paying attention to it. I want you to just focus on my books. Don't think about how any casting goes, because we don't even know if this show is going to exist. I remember him saying that specifically. He says, I remember him saying, at this point, I'm just happy if we get a pilot done. Anything after that would be gravy. I remember that specifically. And he didn't say that with any desperation or poignancy, but it was just, you know, he had been through the Hollywood game. You know, he had been writing for television in

the 80s and he had been through stuff, you know, with Beauty and the Beast and Twilight Zone, I believe. Twilight Zone or Outer Limits, I forget which. It was Twilight. I think it was Twilight. Yeah. But I know he was integral with Beauty and the Beast back in the day. So anyway, he had seen the heartbreaks of Hollywood. And so he wasn't being snowed that he was a shoe in for this to happen. He knew that it was a long road ahead. And so this is right at the beginning of this whole saga for him. And so he lets me know about this thing. He says, you can't tell anybody about it, though. And I don't want you involved in terms of looking at the stuff. And, I want to, and I remember this quote

as well. I want a John Picasso vision of my characters. And I just want a pure John Picasso vision. I want the way you see all of these great fantasy characters that you've done so far. And I want you to bring that to my characters. And if you do that, I'll be so happy. And that was it. And, you know, I mean, you can't ask for any more than that, because honestly, I had done Star Trek, and I had done stuff that involved actor likenesses, where actors have to sign off on the likenesses. And yeah, it's fun. It's cool. And you know, I guess sometimes it even pays well. But I really didn't get into this game to do that. I got into this game to imagine things and bring things from my own brain and my own way of seeing the world and trying to put them out there to help create stories and create worlds for people. And so to get to bring my imagination

to his stuff, that was all I wanted. I didn't really want to go draw actor likenesses, even though maybe that might be easier for some artists to have something to reference off of. So it was great. I proceeded to spend the next many, many months working on this stuff. proceeded to spend the next many, many months working on this stuff. Fast forward to when the show comes out, right? Episode one comes out in 2011. Yeah. I mean, we're with him, San Diego Comic-Con, right? Now that San Diego Comic-Con happens for, gosh, I'm trying to think. Before? No, because it was April, wasn't it? Well, I know I'm at San Diego Comic-Con in 2010. It was a, well, no, it was the 2012 calendar. No, I think we're both there.

You did the 2012. No, you did the 2012 calendar and the premiere was April 17th, 2011. But the calendar would have come out in the summer of 2011. It did in July for Comic-Con. It was for Comic-Con. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's what happened. So, you know, right as that thing is starting to heat up,

I'm there with him at that Comic-Con and the thing just went gangbusters. I mean, not just the show, but that artwork just went crazy. I mean, there were already starting to be people. I remember there were already people cosplaying Daenerys and Jon Snow at that Comic-Con and the show had only been out for a few weeks and there were already people cosplaying Daenerys and Jon Snow at that Comic-Con and the show had only been out for a few weeks and there were so many people that were already cosplaying. So that told

you a lot already, but there were people who were already making Xerox copies of my artwork and the calendar had barely even been out anywhere. I mean, officially, it hadn't really come out. That San Diego was almost like a preview selling of the calendar. So it was already getting attention. After that San Diego Comic-Con, it really took off. I remember they kept having to bring cases of that calendar into the booth and kept having to bring them in from places they weren't, like distribution houses that were in California that they weren't expecting to have to that were in California that they weren't expecting to have to tap because they just kept selling them. It was great. I kind of was a part

of that whole craze there. And I didn't think anything of it, but I do remember a very specific moment when that show first came out. In episode one, when you have the Baratheons coming into Winterfell and you see the POV of the Starks kind of all lined up at attention as the Baratheon entourage comes through. And the camera pans down all the faces. And I was there on the couch with my wife when that first episode came out. I remember just looking at all the faces and I remember Tracy saying, that brand looks a lot like your artwork. And she said, oh my God, that Aria looks a lot like your artwork. And she said, Rob looks just like your artwork. And we were somewhat freaking out that a number of the faces in this cast looked strikingly like my artwork, even though I had held true to my word. I had

never looked at any of these people because it just wasn't the job. And I really wasn't interested in that anyway. I chalked it up to coincidence, quite frankly. I just figured, well, we're all looking at the same material, the same words from George. And we just kind of all saw it the same way. And then of course that San Diego happens and I still didn't think anything of it. But then I think we fast forward to whatever that Worldcon was. It wasn't 2012. It might've been the next year. I think it was 2013 actually in London. And I was there with George, I think at a Hugo after party. Benioff and Weiss were there, the producers of the show. And I remember George introducing one of them to me. I think it was the shorter one. So that would have been Dan. Yeah. Right. And so Dan walks up and he says, yeah, we've been looking at your stuff for a long time.

And I didn't know quite how to take that. I was like, well, thanks, man. It's very, very nice of you. And because I didn't think we had any connection, my artwork to the show. And then David walks up next to me. He says, hey, this is John. This is the guy. And he says, oh, you're the guy that did the artwork. And I was like, yeah, yeah. Well, the calendar artwork and George is kind of smirking off to the side. And then Dan looks up at David and he says, how long have we been looking at his artwork? And he says, I don't know, since way, way before season. I mean, before episode one, obviously he says, we were looking at it before casting though, weren't we? And then George kind of starts laughing and I start putting it because I think

he just saw me starting to put it together. And I said, wait a minute, how did you guys see my stuff at that point? So yeah, George looks at me like, come on, haven't you figured this out yet? That's the first time it ever dawned on me that as I was creating this artwork, he was funneling it to the producers. And I have full belief that I was not the only artist. I'm sure I wasn't. I'm sure he was funneling, because he's such an art fan. I mean, he's a huge supporter of fantasy art and collects it and he loves it. So I'm sure that there's, and there were plenty of other artists doing Song of Ice and Fire work before me.

And so I'm sure he was funneling some of that stuff to them as well. But it just had never dawned on me that my stuff was being funneled in that direction. Yeah, that was kind of mind blowing. And that's when I realized, whoa, so my stuff had been sort of used as a source influence or inspiration for some of their decisions, I guess. It was pretty obvious when you looked at those three characters, especially. I was just happy to be a part of something with a friend. And that's what George became.

I mean, we very good friends still are. I mean, I still consider him a dear friend and I would think he does does too. We've been through some things together, even post Song of Ice and Fire. That was an amazing thing. That's how I first got involved in the project. There's something really magical about the worlds, the many worlds of George R. R. Martin. There's something really special. I don't personally know him. I know of people who know him and I know some people who know him. There's just this spark that him and I know some people who know him. There's just this spark that you get when you listen to his interviews or listen to him storytelling. 2018, you did that wonderful, wonderful interview with him at Redwood for

Locust Mag. And you brought a lot of really amazing details out for everyone in that interview. In fact, you confirmed one of the theories that I have written before. So I was kind of excited. Which theory was that? Which theory was that? Well, you helped confirm Bloodraven bringing Dark Sister to the cave with the Q&A with some of the fandom with help from A'Shea from History of Westeros.

I think actually I've been theorizing. I think Mira Reid will probably wield Dark Sister. I think that's pretty obvious to help get them out of there. That's our girl. That's our frog catcher. But that Q&A had a lot of great just little snippets that came out when you look at kind of i mean so i came in to a song of ice and fire probably around season two okay avid reader one of my buddies just said you gotta watch it i mean you gotta watch it so i came in i watched season two, just ended, finished season two, watch Blackwater, cry, rinse, repeat, cry anyways, but in love with it. And I was like,

I have to have more. And George seems to be so passionate. And when he sees something special in someone, whether a fellow creator in his community, he's created or outside of that community, he seems to really raise them up. I don't know, not take care of them, but for you, like you said, he started out not dissimilarly from your story, right? Of creating art, being passionate about art, being passionate about people and culture and creating something, creating a community, a story, something that touches people and reaches people and him being like the biggest fanboy of us all, right? I mean, he is the world's biggest fanboy. Like you said, he's so passionate about art

and things surrounding his interests in Paris too, it seems. It's special. It's so special. They're both really true hearts. You know, they really are. They're super pure people. I remember when I finished doing the artwork, I think they asked me to be a guest of honor at, what was it? Bubonicon, which is in Albuquerque, New Mexico.

So that's not that far from Santa Fe. And I remember George saying, hey, I saw that you're going to be GOH at Bubonicon. I think that was in 2011. Obviously, it must have been 2011. And so he says, bring all the originals with you because I want to look at them in person. So I did. I didn't put them in the art show, but I just brought them to my hotel room. And then he texted me and he said, hey, bring them up to my room. And I was like, sure. Yeah, no problem. So I brought them up there. I wasn't even thinking anything other than we're just going to be show and tell. And I was kind of looking forward to him finally getting to see these things. And so the original artworks, just for people that don't know, for those 2012 calendar illustrations, they were all these big, they're big graphite drawings. And they're not like just sketches. I mean, they're full on, full value graphite drawings

that I then digitally colored in Photoshop. So in the end, they're basically just, like I say, giant drawings. And so I'm very much a guy who's working hybrid with traditional materials, but then doing digital finishes. And I think that's a pretty consistent approach for at least the last 15 years of my professional work. So I bring these originals to his room and we lay them out on the floor. And there was a friend of his from Australia, a friend named Stephen Boucher, a mutual friend of ours, actually. And, uh, Steven was in there. I was like, Hey man, I didn't know you're going to be here too. And he's like, yeah, I wouldn't miss this. So we lay him on the floor and then George says, um, all right,

I'll take that one, that one, that one. And he just starts picking like baseball cards, which ones he wants. And I was like, you mean you're, you're going to buy these? And he's like, yeah, yeah, no, I, I want, I want, I'm picking the ones I want. And he picked them out. And, and then Steven said, all right, you made your picks. I'm taking that one. And he took brand and he's got a, he's got a serious, he's got a serious art collection. So, I mean, it's not like it was going to just anybody. And so it was really amazing. I think, I'm trying to think, what did George take? He took Ned, he took Sansa and the Hound, which I think he always said was his favorite of the pieces I did

of the 12 pieces. I think Sansa and the Hound was his favorite. Now that one hangs in his house, correct? So when you walk into, or at least last time I was there, when you walk into his sort of office studio area, when you open the door and look to your right on the corridor, at least this was, like I said, the room could have changed at this point. But for a good while there, he had those originals on the right side as you open the door into his studio office area, which is pretty cool to me. I don't have the original, but I have. I have that one. I have the Sansa and Sandor print in my own house in the other room. I have it big. I went big. She got to go big. In fact, you actually signed it with a little heart on the paper. You're like, thanks so much. Right on. So thanks, John. Thank you. I love that one though. And we will be having

some links below for you all. but if you have not checked out the calendar prints like the prints are beautiful they're full size they're available on john's website and they are you put a nice frame on that thing and you can look at it every day every day got ned he's got sans on the hound he's got um see texas a&m i know got john snow they got that for their collection what else did he take he took, he took Rob. That's right. He took the White Walkers. He took Rob. He took Ned. He took Sansa and the Hound. Shoot, I'm kind of forgetting what's the last one. I think Mountain versus Red Viper. I think he got that one. Yeah. Your Art of the Others is special too, because didn't he tell the Game of Thrones comics? Oh, yeah. I forgot about that.

Kind of some semblance from it. I mean, we're kind of a blueprint, John. I don't know. I forgot about that. Yeah, that's right. Because if you look in the back of that graphic novel, the graphic novel for Game of Thrones, they have like a little spread in there where they show my artwork and say, yeah, we decided to take from basically for my artwork for their depiction of him in the book, which is very nice. That's cool. Yeah, I forgot all about that. The way you look at it, or the way I look at it is, you know, I'm part of a continuum, proud to be a part of it. And, you know, there were people that came before me, and there's gonna be a lot of people that come after me. I'm grateful that I got to be there at that moment. There's an interesting

coda to the whole, I guess, source inspiration story. 2018, I think, I'm at Alamo City Comic Con here in San Antonio. I'm blanking on his name. It's going to come to me in a second. Isaac Hempstead Wright, right? Yep. Isaac Hempstead Wright, the guy who plays Bran. He was a guest at the show. I remember sitting at my table and thinking, you know, maybe I ought to try to walk up there and check in with him and gift him a print of my artwork. I waited for kind of a quiet moment. There was a friend of mine, a fellow artist named Lauren Snow, and who was a huge fan of the show at the time. In fact, she's about to be guest of honor or have her first guest of honor at Armadillo Con here in Texas this next month. So it's cool how things come around. Anyway,

so it was me and Lauren. She was at my table. And so we walk up together and I just brought up this little tiny eight by 10 print of the brand artwork just to kind of gift to him. I remember there was like an assistant there, I believe, who kind of was like screening for him, kind of held up the artwork and he saw it and he just lit up right away. And so we went up there. I think there was hardly any people. We picked a good time in the line. Long story short is he basically says, look, hey, you're the guy that changed my life. And I said, I think that's a little much. He says, no, let me tell you the story. And so, yeah, I'll try to recount this. He basically said, when you audition for Game of Thrones, when they were all auditioning, he said there were these

different trailers for the different characters, different roles. And he said, you know, I was in the line, obviously, for Bran Stark. And he says, you have to remember, I'm a little kid at that point. I was like, believe me, I remember. And he says, I'm holding my mom's hand. And he says, I'm really nervous. He says, my hands are really sweaty, an infinite line of kids in front of me. And he says, but as you get closer and closer to these trailers, there's all these big images on the trailers. And so as I get closer, I see this one piece of artwork. And he says, and it's your artwork. It was bigger than all the other pieces. He he says it's on the side of the trailer and he says as I get closer and closer I keep looking at that face on that character and I said mom it looks just like me and he and he said as I got as each kid kept going through the door I keep seeing that artwork

clearer and he says by the time I got to the door I I said, mom, it's me. That's me. That's me on that wall. And he said, I just, it just gave me so much confidence. And he said, I, I, you know, I was super nervous. I didn't think I was going to get it, but when I did the audition, I really felt it. I felt like I had it because that was my face. You know, obviously it worked because I got the role, but he said, you know, that seeing my face in your artwork made me think that this job was mine. I was like, I thought that was really amazing. And I said, look, man,

it wasn't by design much as I wish, but I'm really glad it worked out that way. Cause I thought you, you know, you drilled it, you nailed it. He was really sweet guy, but that further confirmed that, yeah, they, they definitely were, I guess looking at my stuff very early on in the process and certainly during casting. And now I, I give them all the credit in the world for picking some great actors and, and really discovering sort of a new constellation of talents, you know,

and that has nothing to do with my artwork. That's just George had a lot to do with that casting. And, and, um, no, I think they, they made great choices. That's why that show works so well, at least for a time it worked so well. But, uh, I know there's a lot of backlash for the seasons that were maybe lesser written and etc. But that aside, did you watch that special for season eight that had the crew and the production crew and everything they do in the background? I did. Just to look at what it's become, how we've evolved, even with media is it's a full real production. I mean, it's built on labor. It's built on all these people doing things that

believe in getting one job done together. And they make something so magical. I know there's a lot of fandom stuff out there and people that are invested in different stories. The Assault on the Vice and Fire fandom is crazy. First all they are passionate they are all crazy everyone that is in love with it and up until you know 2011 2012 there was art and all of the art that kind of came from the before the baby boom of got and a swath you michael cormack's art like it's very revered now even though it wasn't widely distributed at the time there's so much art the the loris art uh the net under the weirwood and your net is very iconic and the elaine art i mean these are pieces of artwork that when i was getting into the fandom starting to really love the series

2015 i went on tumblr and searched for the books like i was like where can i this is when tumblr was still you know a place to go uh but i was like i want to see stuff about the books like i was like where can i this is when tumblr was still you know a place to go but i was like i want to see stuff about the books like i'm sick of the show yeah sick of what's going on with that like i have the books in my hands i need more i'm hungry for more and i was just on tumblr searching art and searching you know the song of ice and fire books and i found ice and fire con for example who they're going on their 10th year this year wow really yeah 10 years 10 years of a song of ice and fire this year at ice and fire con. That's amazing. For a fan run con and people who are just so passionate about meeting other people with similar interests and the amount of relationships

and podcasts and friendships, just, I've seen this kind of birth. Of course, you know, your art and Michael's art were, were kind of looked at as probably those influences. I mean, before that baby boom, now everything everywhere is a swap, which is amazing. There are amazing a song of ice and fire fan artists everywhere now. But, but it really does make sense why your art is so revered. It was the art. You're taking me back though, in a way, cause I look back and I'm starting,

as you keep talking, I keep thinking, you know, you make a really good point about where, you know, where the show is now, but I think back to where it was, where we were at the time that show birthed. Because when I really go back and think about it, I remember how, how nervous I was for George when that show was first coming out, that there hadn't been anything like this. And the chances of it getting greenlit for a second season were pretty precarious and fragile at first. And I remember when that first episode came out, me being nervous that, you know, would this thing continue on with a second season?

Because there really wasn't anything else out there like this. You know, we now we're, you know, what is that like now? 11 years later, we're drenched in this stuff. We're oversaturated with it. But at that time, this was groundbreaking stuff for television. I remember looking at that first match shot of the wall and thinking, gosh, I wish they had just a little more money to spend on that because it looked beautiful. But it was so good at that time.

Remember, we still look at movie or motion picture, big screen production values as being one category and television production values for a show like this being a completely different category. And that line is very much blurred, if not obliterated now. And Game of Thrones was the thing that's literally, that's like the, how you say, the fulcrum where that thing pivots. Because I remember the budgets, I can't remember what the exact budget number was for the first season of shows, but it was relatively low. They were doing so much amazing work with relatively small budget, certainly compared to these days. And then as each season went along, it just kept getting bigger and bigger. But I remember the Song of Ice and Fire fandom, even before the show came out, I was already feeling sort of a certain level of heat from those fans, both love and also maybe a little bit of anxiety in that they had seen some of my previous work when it was announced that I was going to do this calendar and thought, yeah, I don't know if this guy's going to be right. I don't know. I don't know if this guy's going to be the kind of guy that

should be doing our stuff. A lot of his stuff is a little bit conceptual. It's a little abstract. Realistic people. And my stuff was a little all over the place, but I could see what they meant about a lot of my science fictional covers being a little more conceptual. And so there was probably good reason for some of them to be a little bit anxious about it, but I, it never occurred to me to do these things conceptual. So you, but you can't blame the fans for not knowing that. I mean, they, they were a little bit anxious about it and you could see it in the forums. And so I never felt like I had to answer to that, but I remember feeling like I wanted to be worthy of it. Yeah, I wanted to be

worthy of the amount of love that this fandom had for this property. So I think that did have a little bit of an influence, I must say. Obviously, the show didn't have any influence on me because it didn't exist. But the fandom did a little bit because I saw some of those comments. I saw some of them doubting me. And I did want to but you know, the only way to answer is through the art. Um, but yeah, it, it definitely, I think a lot of them definitely came to my side once the work came out, thankfully, but what I was really proud of too. And I remember this cause again, your comments kind of take me back and that we weren't sure if there was going to be another calendar after mine. I do remember this now, cause I kind of forgot about this, that at the time, I remember George, and still to this day, he still feels so passionate about

the things related to his books. And I know as much as he cares about his TV legacy, the book legacy, the literary legacy far outweighs for him what happens in that other media. I hope I'm not being too forward in saying that, but I think I'm right. You know, I think what he writes and how that's perceived and where that goes, I think that's what matters to him. And so, you know, this, this calendar legacy that he wanted for his, or I should say this illustration art legacy that would be related to a calendar line was something he really wanted. It was there in that early pitch. And so if mine wasn't successful, he wasn't going to get that. And I think that was what was weighing on me more than anything about a possible show. That really wasn't something I was worried about. I forgot all about

that, that actually that was something I was really worried about. So that when the next calendar came out, I think that was Mark Simonetti. And I think after that was Magali Villanueva. And I think after that is Donato Giancola. And then on and on. And I could be wrong. I think I might have 2014 wrong. I think it was either John Howe or gosh, I forget. But anyway, there's a long line of both amazing world-class established legends, but then also some new young blood.

Gary Gianni. Gary Gianni. Gary Gianni. There you go. You got it. Yeah. Gary was already a legend even before that calendar. He's amazing. And so, yeah, the fact that that calendar lineage was able to happen, I don't take credit

for it, but I'm just glad that I didn't mess it up. Let's put it that way. Successful enough that Random House just basically said, yeah, we're going to do this for the foreseeable. And it's still going to this day. So very nice. I love that. I'm happy for George and I'm glad I didn't mess it up. Let another art Garion mess it up. What was great too is, you know, I remember thinking at the time I felt lucky and I still feel lucky that I didn't have to have the TV people in my head. Like I didn't have to have the TV actors in my head when I was creating work. From then on, after I did my calendar, they always had to contend with, well, I know I'm supposed to be doing the book characters, but you have to kind of compartmentalize and get. Lena Headey and Sophie Turner. And here they are. Yeah.

And I didn't have to deal with that. So I was always grateful for that. Well, and you did have kind of a stressor there because at the time, like I said, like there wasn't a ton, ton of a swap art. There was a good amount, but there wasn't a ton of it. And due to that, you had to set kind of a precedent with what you were doing. And nowadays I'm like sitting here and i'm like there is trippy ridiculous art out there psychedelic you know uh just art of this and that and the other thing of a swath and so many styles there are actually we love over at our discord we're big a song of ice and fire fan art fans and we have the the reddits the imaginary westeros reddit we have it posting straight into a channel so we can all look at it all day long anyone that posts there just for you know a little art inspo and i think that's

really fun that's cool just the different interpretations different ways to bring your love for these characters out or the things that you really catch on to and you know you had written maybe it was in your ama with reddit uh that you did a while back in the fantasy forum but you kind of talked about making art and you know the concept of what happens when you commission it with somebody who's commissioning the art from you and wants you to do a cover or do a piece and how you find that happy medium and the relationship and how it's almost musical nursing that relationship in some aspects from the front to the end, whether business, whether the creative portion of it, and kind of the mixing of media you do both on and off the page with that. And I think that's, it seems it's something that you've really

gotten to excel and advance more at through kind of some of these things you did with George. And then outside of that, as you've grown as an artist with other works and other authors. And I didn't actually know kind of the depth of your career. Yeah. You know, I mean, I will say that the BWB, the Brotherhood Without Banners, you know, I mean, the BWB has always been so good to me ever since that work came out. You know, I don't need to name names, but a number of the people that were there in 2011, 2012, that were kind of really rooting me on and embraced me, they're still a part of my circles. So I'm very grateful. I know there are a couple of brotherhooders that come to Ice and Fire Con, so now our mission is we have to get John Picassio at Ice and Fire Con in the future.

Where is this con? Where is it this year? It takes place at Deer Creek Lodge in Ohio. It's about 40-ish minutes from Columbus. It is in the woods and it has a lodge, a beautiful lodge, and there are cabins all full of electricity. So it's not, you know, there's water's water electricity but it is just about 300 to 500 nerds annually in the woods uh song of ice and fire stuff mostly book-based a little bit about the show another creative in another field that last year we had there was david peterson oh cool doing the languages you know and yeah yeah a lot of the stuff uh that you speak about and like the grisha verse for example he's pretty good friends with lee and he was talking a lot of the stuff that you speak about, and like the Grishaverse, for example, he's pretty good friends with Lee.

And he was talking a lot about those worlds and creating the languages for those worlds and like just the intricacy and kind of that passion. And it reminds me of some of the things he was saying this year at Ice and FireCon. Sure. Depiction of George's world and community that he brought you into. Yeah, yeah. It's a little tracks. Yeah, yeah. It's a creative world of

ice and fire it's really interesting i mean there's like there's bands that do a song of ice and fire concept albums like the manimals uh there are artists there are podcasters there are bloggers there's this there's there's poets i know a poet who does a song of ice and fire poetry uh our friend janice and it's just kind of crazy what it's birthed and what it's still birthing yeah question mark because this is i'm not trying look this show looks great ryan condell and george has been feeding some great stuff with ryan condell to make it this is, I'm scared to love again, but I think I'm going to love again. Yeah. I think, I think it's not, it's not, uh, you're not alone. And I, but I, I see a lot of, at least amongst my circles, sort of, uh, what's the word? Hesitancy to almost burnt,

a feeling of being burnt from, you know, how Game of Thrones ended for them. You know, I certainly have strong feelings. I think I knew probably more than I probably should have known about where things were going, maybe a few seasons even before we got to season eight. I was kind of seeing red flags, let's put it that way. And things that I probably wasn't supposed to know, but just that I kind of knew and just had to shut up about, but just, uh, you know, I, um, yeah. So, I mean, I can see though why the rest of the world would be looking at it saying, you know, why should I trust again? Um, look, you know, bottom line is when I think of Game of Thrones, again, we were just talking about what the world was like before that versus where we are now.

It literally, I mean, I hate this word because it gets used so much these days, but it really was a game changer, truly. And I think we have yet to see a pop culture phenomenon that's not Marvel, not DC, like exclude Marvel, DC and Star Wars and anything Disney. Just put those aside for a second. But I mean, I don't think there's anything that isn't one of those things that literally changed not just pop culture, but changed the way presidents talk, changed the way we present ourselves, the way we talk at the water cooler. We saw its influence in the way sports is perceived, the way music is perceived, the way, like I said, the way people even just communicate. I mean, this thing permeated for like about eight years across all levels of society around the world. I mean, it was truly profound, this phenomenon. And I know I was with George in Dublin at Worldcon in 2019.

I was with George in Dublin at Worldcon in 2019. I remember he said something to the effect of, well, now that my thing's done what it did, what really matters now is that we see one, if not two shows that have the same level of impact. And then we know we're good. Then we know that we're going to have these kinds of stories told for the rest of the way. It's going to happen. And he says, but if we don't have another one that really nails that sort of pop cultural, I don't know if the word would be hegemony, but that sort of phenomenon where it just saturates into everything. He says, I worry that it'll almost be seen as a one hit wonder, like that my show will be the one and then everything else will just kind of be like, well, I guess there was a trend. Maybe fantasy isn't here for good.

I think that conversation is done. We're going to have SFF TV and genre TV and shows in perpetuity. It's going to be there. But I think we're still waiting for one to hit the way his did or the way Game of Thrones did. I shouldn't say his, but the way Game of Thrones did. I don't think witcher's done it i think the closest one is stranger things where we see stranger things now having an effect on uh music the pop the pop charts i don't even care about that eight books not for a lot of people i know but for a lot of people that was their their

discovery moment which is great um metallica all of a sudden being back on people's minds because of stranger things, but that's still not nearly the impact that, that game of Thrones had. So I would be very curious to see how house of the dragon does. I think it's going to be a hit, but I don't know if you can ever expect it to duplicate what game of Thrones did. I just hope it's a really good show, but this is just me editorializing. Kind of glad we don't have the same producers. I'm hoping that that'll make for a better mix in terms of how the story is resolved. I haven't been talking to George much about this

one. In fact, hardly at all. I was asked earlier in the process if I wanted to be involved in a prequel project that I think is probably still in the works. And I had to turn it down because I'm working on something else of my own. And I just didn't think that it would be good to be doing both of those. I didn't think I could devote the time that I already was committing to the project I can't speak of while also working on this possible Game of Thrones prequel project. But it was a very tempting offer because I would have been able to have a bit of an impact, I suspect. And yeah, I don't like saying no

to anything that involves George. Let's just be honest. It's gotta be hard also. I don't feel like it's easy to say no to him. No, it wasn't. But it was the right call and I think he knows it. And hopefully it'll be proven when this other project comes out.

I'm excited about the show. I'll be following it. For George's sake, I hope it's great and I hope people love it too. We it'll be proven when this other project comes out. I'm excited about the show. I'll be following it for George's sake. I hope it's great. And I hope people love it too. We'll see. We'll find out together. So you didn't, did you read Fire and Blood

or no, you did not read Fire and Blood? I haven't gotten to. So the way it works for me is, you know, like when George approached me, like I told you, I hadn't read the books, but as soon as I mentally committed, which was basically in that bar,

you know, first thing I did was go after those books and, and immerse myself in them. And that's kind of my, my process when I'm working on anything where the covers or anything that's artwork related to, to a book or franchise, I immerse myself in it. And I, and I try to know it backwards and forwards so that, you know, the way I look at it is I don't think about an audience when I'm doing my work. I'm just doing it for me in a way, once you're putting it out there, I guess in a way, it's like you're introducing a friend to a bunch of friends is the way I look at it, you know? So,

you know, I'm doing this artwork and I'm finding, like, say when I'm doing a cover for a book, you know, the fans out there haven't read this book. And sometimes I haven't either because the book hasn't even been written sometimes. And I'm trying to immerse myself in what this author is trying to do, usually because they're telling me the story in words, sometimes verbally. And I'm trying to find what I think are the strengths in my mind of what this story is and how it turns me on and what makes it connect with me personally. And so once I've done that, I'm trying to then go to an audience and say, hey, this story is really amazing for these reasons. This is why I think you might like this story too. And I'm trying to do that through my artwork. And that's

really, it's that simple, really. It's like introducing a friend to a bunch of friends. And that's the way I see the way my artwork is kind of a conduit for that when I'm doing a book. So to get back to Fire and Blood, yeah, the fact that I'm doing all these projects and doing all these covers and doing all this stuff means I don't get a lot of extra time to read other things. But I will say, if I ever had to get back into this world, believe me, I would read those things backwards and forwards and I would know them. I wouldn't put it out of the realm of possibility, but right now it hasn't happened yet.

I'll be watching the show for sure. Most definitely. Like right now I'm doing cover artwork for Rebecca Roanhorse's Between Earth and Sky trilogy. So I did the first two books, which are Black Sun and Fevered Star. I'm currently working on the third cover for that one. And so right now my brain's kind of immersed in her world along with some other worlds that I'm currently making as well. So that's why there's not a lot of room for fire and blood reading. But like I said, I wouldn't rule it out for down the road. What are your thoughts as far as how this might go for the show? What do you think?

Definitely get not being able to like double dip into too many worlds, right? Because it kind of cuts the valve on the creative flow. If you're in Rebecca's world, how are you going to go into westeros into backstabbing bloody vengeance filled war filled westeros at the time of the greens and the blacks uh the dance the dragons i think that this is some of the some of the sequel choices that have been tossed around or prequel choices sorry for most most of the prequel choices here uh some of them have been like decent ideas but lacking the drama right you need a little drama i think to bring game of thrones back let's do it again and there's something interesting in the way we've seen in the trailers like the

evoking of another era and how do we say this is game of thrones but it's also not at all like it's also very different from game of thrones with different people except for miguel and uh george's guidance but i feel like miguel is a great person to kind of you know chaperone to ferry it across the river uh back to to new life and bring kind of the old but also mesh it with the new with ryan condell i have been increasingly confident trailer by trailer that could be the hype that could that could absolutely be the hype that could be because i'm thirsty for a song of ice and fire content in all seriousness i think the dance of the dragons is a really dramatic story and you know there is a little bit of it sprinkled in the main story so the basics like, like you know, is Princess Rhaenyra is named the heir by her father Viserys,

who was kind of coasting on a golden reign, right? Like he comes after Jaehaerys. He kind of had it a little good. Grandpa Jaehaerys did all the work already. Viserys names his daughter Eir. Drama ensues because his new wife and his new kids are like, so what are we for? Design? Are we just for furniture? Are we just, and fighting ensues with a lot of drama in between there. And then it's all out war after a while. And I think that's

just with dragons, that's the perfect recipe to bring back some of that nostalgia for a decade ago when game of thrones is really starting to soar into its prime getting ready also at the same time new new hands to form the clay i think is a good feeling uh the costuming the costuming looks incredible the details yeah it does it's kind of very renaissance yeah it does i mean i i don't know is it is it mikhail miguel uh is it sapanchik i think something like that he was one of the directors that did a lot of the key episodes for um like battle of the bastards yeah really good there's like two or three of them that are that were really integral um david nutter do i have the name right is it david nutter yes no it's david nutter

he is another director yes really good really really good miguel miguel was one of those three two or three really strong visual storytelling voices in the first incarnation or the first series in the in game of thrones i should say so yeah we'll see how this goes. I mean, yeah, I'm rooting for him. I'm not really tied into Doctor Who fandom hardly at all, but even with my very, very surface knowledge of it, I have a hard time disconnecting Matt Smith from that stuff with the wig on. So I was able to get over Sean Bean and completely embrace him as Ned. So I have no doubt that Matt Smith will work for me once I see him in the show. But I remember at first having a really hard time disconnecting because it was one of the smart moves of the first show, which was cast unknowns.

You know, don't cast known actors so that we could immerse ourselves immediately, which is always a smart move when it comes to these properties. And Sean Bean kind of messed that up for me. But oh my God, he was amazing. And I got it all worked out by episode two. He had you sure worked out. And by episode nine, oh boy. Yeah, we knew what was coming. That is a great point. You got to have one or two names you know and uh a couple of the actors i am excited for eve best as rainies uh who is you know the queen who was looked over the queen who never was she's gonna be great i actually love her i've been harping on it this entire season of uh unleash the d the new uh if you haven't known eliana my co-host is out of out of country right now she's

in another country oh wow we unleashed the d is what we've been doing for house of the dragon the fans have been and i'm sure you may have heard this affectionately calling it hot d hot d yeah hot d i've heard that get your hot d august 21st that's right you know we've been talking about it for weeks some of our favorite things on this show that we're excited for. And Eve Best is in Nurse Jackie. And she's amazing. She's in a bunch of other stuff. And she's an actress I really actually love.

And Matt Smith. I'm a huge Doctor Who fan. And I love Matt Smith. Are you feeling it? So you're feeling it in this show? At first, I was not. But now, I believe it. I buy it.

I completely buy it. He's such a dramatic actor. And Damon is like, he's like the blueprint for Oberyn. Yeah, sure. He's Oberyn come again. I mean, right down to being sexy to his niece. Yeah, yeah. He can swashbuckle his way across a scene.

He can do pretty much anything. They're playing it so much more Shakespeare this time around which they should yeah Game of Thrones was also a Shakespearean tragedy very into tragedy I'm like yeah make me cry make me upset make me rage I want to feel something you're in the right place yeah Matt Smith I think can do it and I'm not a huge Damon fan uh you probably won't be either buckle up John but uh he's just kind of he's a little slimy he's kind of a sleazeball yeah and you don't gotta love him right like i mean he's a good villain you sure good villains which george always brings some good villains in yeah he is

gonna be i think interesting as him i think he's actually gonna do it the dragon technology has improved i have heard oh yeah oh my god they could like see themselves on a screen it's not final but they could actually see the background while they ride it's not just you're riding a giant bronco whatever right right yeah i mean technology has evolved so much hasn't it since that first season of game of thrones i mean i remember watching i think at this point I've seen all the behind the scenes footage that they put on the Blu-rays. And gosh, you can just,

if you just track from season one to season eight, just the production design and visual effects possibilities and the technology itself just evolved so much. I mean, I'm not saying that Game of Thrones was the one that did that solely, but a lot of the things that we now take for granted on television really found themselves, you know, cemented in the work that the Game of Thrones crews did. It's groundbreaking stuff. I mean, I don't think it's going to be matched in terms of impact, but like George, I'm waiting for that next thing

that does have that kind of impact. Because I mean, he's rooting for it. I'm rooting for it as well. I hope it happens. We'll see what happens with this show. I'm, for me, still waiting to see what happens with Winds of Winter as everybody else out there is, you know, I mean, I'm hopeful that, you know, I don't have any inside information on that. That's one thing is when I get together with George, we don't really talk about... Unless I'm working on something with him actively, like wild cards or the things I was doing on the calendar, I never ask him like,

hey, how's X going? Or how is this? I never bring that stuff up. Just doesn't come up. We usually have other things we're talking about. As the show... Now that the show is going to be out there, I'm really, I'm really hopeful that maybe we will see this book happen. You know, I mean, I have full belief in him. You know, I mean, I put out those

really great blog posts lately that kind of hinted at what's, what he's working on or what stage he is or with what chapters he's working on. I have no idea how much material he's got in the can versus how much he's still got to work on. I know that when the way the show ended, I always felt like everybody kind of always already seems to feel like they know what the story is going to be when his books come out, that it's going to be an anticlimactic experience. And I don't know, I just don't believe that. Kind of feel like now, I mean, put yourself in his shoes. I mean, something I think about all the time is it's got to be the loneliest place to be. Is there any writer, any creator that's ever been in the position that he was in for those

eight years and is right now in the sense of having this amazing epic that basically now the world is your beta reader. They got to see the entire thing in terms of its beats played out in front of them. And now you've got to go actually go write this thing. And the reaction was, to be honest, very mixed, wasn't it? In terms of how that show resolved and how that's got to affect you as a creator. And I guess in my head, I think if it was me, which it's not obviously, just because those beats were told to those two guys back then doesn't mean they have to be the beats now i'm not saying george is doing that i'm just saying that if i john pacascio were doing it if they thought i zigged well now i'm gonna zag that's your right

as a creator isn't it so i'm not saying that's what george is gonna do no way so don't anybody go try to take that and put that on twitter that's not what i'm saying but i don't make it a headline. Don't make it a headline. I'm not coming over here acting like I know what he's doing because I don't. But I mean, that stifles your passion. I would disagree with anybody who says, well, I already know how the story is going to go. It's going to go like this because George has already said he told them the story and this is how it played out on TV. You know, not so fast. And of course, he's already been very public about saying, you know, those are the beats, but how you weave between those beats and how you play them out. We know that that was different on the show. You know, he kept talking about the butterfly effect and how that played out as the episodes evolved. And I fully believe that it'll be a very different experience when his version comes out. And that'll be the real version, won't it? You know, I just hope he gets to, he's able to do it. I'm rooting for him more than anything on that, more than the television stuff. Bran's my POV guy, you know, I mean, that's the, that's the

one that I can't wait to see how George plays those out. You know, that's, that's the one. When I read those chapters, they are some of the best, most magical chapters. And I mean, how he was sidelined just from the storytelling effect and everything going on, it didn't do a lot of justice to his character. And that's one of the characters I'm looking forward to the most in The Winds of Winter. You've brought together so many people across the world in the name of it in so many ways. And it's hard because it was kind of done on a screen in a lesser way. I mean, there's nothing that will ever be a Song of Ice and Fire, but a Song of Ice and Fire. When I was a kid, I remember in the Sam's Club parking lot, I made my mom buy me the new Harry Potter. I remember reading it, my face in the stupid book, walking through walking through the parking lot probably gonna get hit by a car and die i remember like i wanted to skip to the end and find out what happened and that's something that a child does when a child reads

a book this is a story about me as a child as an adult that's not what it's about like we love the story because of the characters and the journey that these characters are on like you're not gonna because of the characters and the journey that these characters are on like you're not gonna love Arya Stark by reading her last plot beat right it's a bummer that there are people that have chosen to kind of take those plot beats and and that ending and kind of I don't know build resentment yeah over fiction but you know in real life I get it that's our escape every day and some people have kind of made that their thing and they're not going to continue on, but the people are out there that want to read it. A lot of us, many of us, thousands of us, if you will believe there are thousands of us, millions. No, it's going to be millions. When that book comes out, that's the thing. I just kind of stay quiet about it, especially online.

It'll come out. I know a lot of people like to bad mouth. I hear this comment. This is the one that sometimes makes me want to pop off and I don't. When people say, for all these years, we were talking about Game of Thrones and Song of Ice and Fire, and now nobody talks about it. Nobody cares. No one talks about it. Shut up. See, that tells me just how awful it is, how badly that thing was such a fail. And thank God we're over it. And I just try my best not to say anything because I know when that book comes out, this is all over again. The fire will rage. It's going to be, you know, it's going to be as if it never went away.

It'll be there. You know, will the show have that kind of effect? I don't know. I'm not really thinking like that. But I know when that book comes out it's gonna take over everything again just like it did you had 19 million viewers right for the last episode of game of thrones 19.3 or something and i expect this show will what it'll probably premiere it'll probably still have nine million i mean a it's still we're in covid times still which is really just forever as long as we exist and uh people rely on media more than we did

five years ago ten years ago we are really reliant on media right now like marvel with their weekly drops of whatever good to maybe mediocre to good tv show that they're putting out you know sure they're not all winners i've watched a couple of them because i too had nothing to do for an hour a week i think so many people will be drawn to it hey new game of thrones new game of thrones even like you said water cooler talk the way we talk about things the way khaleesi is used casually in conversation amongst people it's all changed and i think that it could get back up there I mean they're only looking at three to four or five seasons they've mentioned in interviews for the

main Dance of the Dragons story I think we could see it repeat I think we could see it beat Game of Thrones in views which is fine um I don't know if we will but we could there is an opportunity and before this I was very. I mean, when I watched season eight, it's like the chains broke off because I understood exactly what you and I just discussed. This is just the major plot beats. If George follows them, if he doesn't, he's going to give us a story. It's going to be great. Absolutely.

I can watch. I watched it freely. I did not feel like I had any chains on me to hate it anymore. I was like, I've been freed. And now he wrote a beautiful, brilliant. You have to read Fire and Blood when you're ready. I think I'm going to fall into it. Yeah.

I don't know where I'm going to find the time for it. But I know once I start with this show, I'm going to say, all right, I don't know where I'm going to carve this out, but I've got to read this. I want to see your art too from reading it because like what I want to see is what your brain comes up with because it's not told in the pov structure that you're used to okay so where you could get into sansa's head or you could get into you know the head of cersei while making art of her or uh ned you can't just do that because it's very neutral the way it's written is it's written in the voice of history it's written by historians that are telling it and

so you don't know if renero was really a jerk to alicent or if alicent was really being such a you don't know what the truth is and this show has to kind of choose a lane on some things um so when you do get to read it you know when you finally say yes to george again and he tells you you have to read his book no i'm just kidding But when that happens, I'm interested to see how you draw not from a POV of the character. That is interesting. That could change some things, huh? Sure, sure. No, I mean, if I ever get brought back into the stuff, I would certainly jump at it. First, I've got to get this big thing that I'm currently working on out of the way. So I keep talking about this big thing, which I apologize to people that I can't really get

into this thing right now because I've been told, look, it's got to stay secret until we're finished with it. But it is a book. It's the most illustrations I've ever done for one project. It dwarfs what I did for Song of Ice and Fire. It's the hardest project I've ever done in terms of my art career. Uh, it's a story that I will, I am co-creating, um, with an author that I think a lot of the BWB clan will probably be very familiar with. Um, it's something that we came together. Actually, I, I pitched to this person a number of years ago, back in 2016, I believe. number of years ago, back in 2016, I believe. And only in the last year and a half have we been able to carve out the time to be able to make this thing start to happen. And I'm currently drawing it and it'll be out in 2024. Long time, it feels like to me, but I'm going to need all this time.

I was thinking it was going to be over with and it's not even nearly over with right now. So it's a book that's very illustrated and I'm going to be basically for the first time in my career, co-creating a story. So this is where I kind of want to go with my career. I want to do, I still want to do covers. I still love science fiction. I still love fantasy. I still love horror.

I still want to be involved in this business and publishing industry in doing all these media illustrations and working with friends like George. But I want to create my own stuff too. And I feel like, and when I say create my own stuff, I should be more specific. Sorry. I should say that just creating illustrations for other people's worlds is not good enough, at least not for me. And I thought it would be. And it was only within the last decade that I realized that, and maybe George had some influence on it. I had never even really psychoanalyzed it, but I know I have talked to George about it because he's asked me to do certain other things. And I've had to say, no, I can't do that because I want to go, I need to go down this road. And he understands, he gets it because that's what he does too. That's what any storyteller does. And I feel like a lot of the visual artists that are going to be able to survive into the next decade and beyond are going to have to be able to be not just storytellers, because we all are storytellers as visual artists in this field. But I think you actually have to own your own property. You have to literally create characters and create worlds and create

properties that didn't exist with other people. You can collaborate with others and create them, but you have to own them and really take charge of them and nurture them and curate them and treat them as any other creator does. You can't just be hooking your train onto somebody else's story. You can do that and you can make a career out of it, but that's just not what I think is a full career, at least not for me. And I'm not bashing on any artist who isn't going down this road, but there are plenty that have like Brom, Greg Manches, Sean Tan, Todd Lockwood,

James Gurney, Dinotopia, Ruth Sanderson, just rattling off a bunch of them off the top of my head. For a lot of your listeners, maybe those are new names, but I would tell you to go look them up because they're sort of at the vanguard of what I feel is a real movement in the science fiction fantasy art field, which is visual artists who are creating their own stories, creating their own worlds and owning them

and sharing them and becoming sort of publishing powers on their own. I kind of want to be a part of that. And I kind of want to also be a leader in that eventually if I can. And that's really high falutin because I haven't done a damn thing yet until it comes out. Then I've got no leg to stand on. But that's part of why I feel like it's so important to get it done. Because I think for better or for worse, it's probably going to change how people see me as a creator. We'll see which way that goes. It's not in my control,

but the only thing I can control is the work. So trying desperately to do it. And once I'm out of that, then I can see where George is at and we'll see if I'm involved in anything. I was doing a lot of wild cards illustrations. Some of your listeners may have seen some of those things for tour.com. And in fact, that actually was why I had to stop doing those was because I,

I literally had to say, guys, I need to disconnect from this train because I really need to focus on this other thing. So hopefully within the next year or so, I'll be able to share all the art and all of the stuff that I'm not able to talk about with this. There was also talk lately about me, in fact, within the last year, about me doing an illustrated edition of Dune. And that's been put kind of pushed back a bit, I must say. That was a little bit of a hard decision as well. But it had to be pushed back for this. So, you know, between telling George, hey, I need to push back and work on this thing and telling Dune that I need to push back and work on this thing.

Maybe that tells you just how important this thing is to me. So let's hope I can pull it off. I think you will. I mean, I think that's, and that's something about being an artist, right? You want to build something and you have so much inside of you that you got to get out for you too sometime. So. Otherwise, why am I here? Yeah. You aren't here for me to just take you to the places that you already know. You're here for me to take you to the places that you don't. Yeah. You got to get that stuff out of you too. Why am I here?

What if it just withers in there and dies? You know what I mean? I've been thinking that lately. What does it do if you don't use that magic in you? Man, you got to use it. I don't know any other way other than just put it out there. So once that all gets done, then we'll go back and see where Loteria is at. So some of you out there who think,

oh, he's just talking about Loteria. No, I'm actually not talking about Loteria. Loteria has, I have a plan for Loteria and it's more than just those limited run cards that I sell through my website. Those are sort of the prologue or the on-ramp toward where I'm going to go with that project. But first, this other thing that I'm doing has to happen first.

And then after that, I've got some pretty big plans for Loteria. And it'll be more than just a card set. It'll be Loteria, and then you can illustrate the Winds of Winter. Right? That's what I'm hearing. George, are you listening? I hope he's on to a dream of spring at that point. I really do.

Well, I'm hoping that you get called on very soon for those winds of winter artworks is what i'm saying i'll answer the phone believe me and i and i doubt that i'll be saying no if that were to happen yeah dune i don't know but no i'm just kidding no i love dune too i love dune as well but i love george and i've said no a couple of things and he's understood but winds of winter i don't know if i could say no to that i don't i mean that's the big one. That's the big kahuna. There'll be another one after that.

Let's not hope that that's it. Hell yeah, hell yeah. But it's the big kahuna of the decade. We need to catch that fish. I'm ready, I'm ready. Right now we need to get that one out of the way first. That's right, that's right. John, I have had such a good time chatting with you.

Me too. Thanks for hanging out with me. You know, we were only Twitter friends before for a while. We became buddies through just Twitter, and now we are real friends. You have to come back to tell us all about your big project. Will do. I expect to hear from you so we can tell everyone and finally reveal it. But until then, where can we find you online?

Where can everyone look you up? Sure. www.johnpicasso.com. I will spell it for you. J O H N P I C A C I O.com. That's and I'll be updating my blog here within the next couple of weeks. I've got it actually in the one appearance I'll be doing this year. We had Armadillo con in Austin, Texas. It's the one show I'm doing this year again, because of my workload also because I'm not stupid. I've got a kid and I don't want to get her sick if she goes into school. So I've been really careful about trying to keep myself from bringing something into the house. So with COVID and monkey pox and everything, that's going to be the one show, small show.

Hopefully I can do more in 2023. But my Twitter handle is at John Picassio, J-O-H-N-P-I-C-A-C-I-O. I'm on Twitter, same handle for Instagram. I really don't do a lot of social media on Instagram or Facebook. Twitter, I do a bit. You guys can look at my feeds though. And when I have work to show, I'll put it out there. These days, I just talk about women's rights, state of the world and everything being on fire and occasionally some art stuff. But really, I mean, this world is in such trouble

right now, this country, especially. So I feel like I've got to stand up. I've got to stand up for my people and people, both people I know and people I don't who have their rights and their communities in peril right now. So I say a lot about that. If that bothers you, then don't look at it. But if you're on board, then come on by and I'll, if I can do anything for you, let me know. I'll be around. But yeah, that's where you can reach me. And I appreciate it. It's good to talk to you, Chloe. Thanks for the opportunity. Absolutely. As always, thank you so much for listening, everyone.

We will be back in August. We have one last Unleash the D episode because seven is the number. Seven is the number, the holy number here with the Targs joining the faith. Your last guest is a huge surprise. It like a very big deal huge guest huge surprise very excited to bring this guest to you all the way from another country if you even will so um we'll be we'll be putting that out next week and after that eliana is returning we'll be back with the Brotherhood Without Manners podcast for our last prologue episodes before we go on to a brand new point of view. Lots of discussion at the Discord,

where if you're a patron in the Thunder tier or above, $10 and up at patreon.com slash girlsgonecanon. You can chit-chat, come to brunch slash happy hour every month, try to guess what POv is next until i finally cave and tell you we have a we have a detective crew doing that over there right now it's pretty funny we'll be back next week with our final unleash the d episode ahead of house of the dragon thanks guys