Girls Gone Canon Cast - House of the Dragon: Unleash the D E7 Ft. SPECIAL GUEST Eliana

Episode Date: August 5, 2022

ALL THE WAY from across the world, Eliana returns to unleash the D in our final episode of HOTD: UTD. Pardon the birds - it's the music of the dragons surrounding Eliana out east. THANK YOU to patrons, listeners, and friends for tuning in while Eliana has been a-travelin'. We'll be back with our ASOIAF POV series this month and more - and MORE UPDATES within the episode...  Check out Eliana's essay, DAUGHTER OF DEATH: https://themanyfacedblog.wordpress.com/2019/04/19/daughter-of-death-a-song-of-ice-and-fires-shakespearean-tragic-hero/   Check out Maester (sometimes) Monthly:  https://maestermonthly.wordpress.com/ Join us at our Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/girlsgonecanon Follow us on Twitter: @GirlsGoneCanon Intro music - Modern Jazz Samba by Kevin MacLeod Link: https://incompetech.filmmusic.io/song/4063-modern-jazz-samba License: https://filmmusic.io/standard-license

Hello and welcome to Girls Gone Canon or Girl Gone, presents Unleash the D. Episode 7, the final episode of the premiere primer series about House of the Dragon, coming to your screens very soon from HBO Max. Unlike other shows, I am one of your hosts, Chloe. Actually, the host, Chloe. But I'm here to welcome my guest host. I'm very excited. I want to introduce them a little bit because they are coming to us from a different time zone. They were so gracious to schedule this with me. You may know them as a moderator over at reddit.com slash r

slash a s o i a f. Or you might know them from some of their really brilliant work over at their blog where they've published an essay called daughter of death about the shakespearean tragedy of denarius targaryen or you might know them as a co-host on a very prominent podcast called maester monthly not to be confused with Maester Wheneverly, which is maybe a Tana Ford and Dave production. Eliana, Eliana A. Rhythymetric over at Twitter has graced us as a very special guest and I'm so excited to welcome her on for this final episode of Unleash the D. Thanks for joining us, Aliana. Thank you so much for having me today, Chloe. I'm really excited to be here. I'm like a big fan, a big fan of your work. And so

I'm really honored to be here. Yeah, I think you've pretty much covered everything about where people can find me. They can also find me. I do have another podcast. It's called Girls Gone Canon. They can also find me. But I'm just excited to be here to help you unleash the D. Is it finally unleashed? I mean, I guess technically it's unleashed on August 21st.

August 21st, we will unleash the d together all of us all of us maybe some of us together more than others but before we talk a little bit about that Eliana you've been absent you've been traveling the world I have been lovingly referring to you as like the Carmen Sandiego of the podcast the ashard name of the podcast i don't know i don't know you've been across the universe you were you know i lovingly refer to eastern time zone as aliana time zone right et and i'd like you to phone the fuck home because you are not an et et is upside down inside inside out, literally. Bouncing on the ceiling. Inside out.

Stranger to the spiritual. Yeah, exactly. You get it. You've been far away. So if you hear birds in the background, that is the music of the dragons, right? Yeah, I guess they actually kind of are, especially now that we know that birds are just like little dinosaurs, right? They kind of are dragons. Yeah. we know that birds are just like little dinosaurs, right? They kind of are dragons. Yeah.

So it's your grandfather keeps birds, right? Yeah. And they're so loud. I'm sorry, everyone. Those are the birds. Those are the birds. I'm at my family home in the Philippines and I've been here the past few months for you know family reasons so but there's something kind of

exciting about it in that as much as we love family and we love being with them it's everything it's time for you to return right to your ancestral seat but you're not returning to your ancestral seat first right're not returning to your ancestral seat first

right like you are actually coming back to the opposite of the philippines to the philly i mean maybe it's the same i don't know it's the united states philippines you're coming into the philippines of the united states in honor of hot d I was like, you know what would be fun? Chloe's not that far from me. What if I just stayed in Philadelphia for a few weeks? And I was like, what if I just stayed

in Philadelphia for a few weeks for the first part of Hot D? Because apparently October is also a wedding season, so that doesn't work i've got a couple of weddings to attend in october i guess you know this chloe people hold weddings in the fall so yeah then they're held wedding yeah it goes deeper than that right because back in a little year called 2020 2020 eliana and i finished up recording some episodes on dance of the dragon

the dance of the dragons and it was for patrons only in the five dollar and above stranger tier and above tier and eliana and i recorded some probably very spicy episodes. I don't know if those will ever surface. We'll see. Five Dance of the Dragon, three bonus episodes, actually, as of now. And Eliana said, Chloe, now that we've done all of this, what if we didn't do House of the Dragon? What if we let everyone else in the entire fandom? Great podcasts, right? else in the entire fandom great podcasts right like history of westeros and radio westeros and not a cast and learned hands and if davos fingers ends up watching i don't know if they are but them

too and so many other podcasts that we love what if we just let them take the reins and we we hanged out with them hopped on the saddle and flew around on dragons when we could. Dire Wolf City. Dragon Wolf City, maybe, for this year. We hanged out with them. What if? That was 2020. A very different year. So then let's fast forward.

It was a really different year. All these past few... Every year since then has been very different. But now we're in 2022 and aliana came to me and she's like what if i just moved to your city for a month and what if we did house of the dragon and what if you changed your work schedule so we could do so ladies germs gays theys all of you i said yes i said yes to the dress i can't resist her no man or woman can withstand eliana so we will we will girls gone canon not just girls gone not just girl gone canon girls gone canon will be covering house of the dragon as it airs on a hbo max streaming service near you keep your ears your eyes

peeled we'll be posting some updates about our schedule as we record and post for house of the dragon but yes we will be covering house of the dragon it will be salacious i'm sure yeah i mean i don't know like at first i was like let's not do it but then it looked like it was gonna actually be good and then i got like really hype and then i was like i want to talk about house of the dragon so um i think we are still gonna do discussions right on our discord about it uh i think that'll be really fun um but yeah i don't know I just wanted to talk about House of the Dragon. I'm sorry. It seemed fun.

And I was like, I want to do it too. And we are still figuring out the logistics behind it, but if you would like to join the Discord, you can on our Patreon in the Thunder tier and above.

It's open to people in the $10 tier and above. But when we talk about how our Dance of the Dragons episodes may never surface, they are in fact surface. We just mean we might not publicly release them, but you can always still get them, again, on our Patreon for the Stranger tier and above, $5 and above. They are still there. And those were actually

you know made off of the information that we had in fire and blood yeah you know back in 2018 we're going we keep going back and back was 20 yeah it was 2018 yeah it was 2018 fire and blood release to tour oh my god in jersey city george himself was there it was it was such a the energy was good wasn't the energy so good we had a bunch of friends surrounding us we rented a little airbnb out there and i mean nothing was more fun okay you all know i had like my goth days back in the day we reference it often if you've been along for the ride with her a song of ice and fire POVs but I was like you know back in the day you'd wait in line for the club yeah right like you're

like I gotta get into the goth club and in my little like skim outfit. And this time it was like, I gotta get in with my nerd friends to the George R.R. Martin Club. It was so wild. It was so fun to wait in that fucking line and see so many other nerds ready to go get their signed Fire and Blood copy. We didn't get to up close meet him that night, but we watched from afar and it was inspiring.

I mean, the man could weave a fucking story, as we know, as we're here today. But in person, right? Like, unprompted, he just weaves a beautiful story. And if you haven't listened to Game of Owns with their episode with George R.R. Martin, you have to because it's a very invigorating episode. But he can weave such a great tale and listening to him talk I could do it all day and and that book really rocks I remember all of us getting back to the Airbnb and like three of us got the book out the rest of you ghouls were like I'm gonna drink booze and we're like we're gonna drink booze and read Fire and Blood no that's you

I was like I have the book open me and jeff uh burned and beefish at the time we were just like i just saw this can you believe unwin peak was charged with this and did this it was kind of like surreal and it's a mini version of what i expect t wow to be right the one's winner to be yeah i was uh i was pouring alcohol for everyone i was like you need a drink you need a drink and just being like oh would you like another drink and then also also as chloe uh i was inviting just random people over too i this is so one time someone sent me one of those you know astrology memes right for my sign leo's it's leo season everyone and uh it said leo most likely to accidentally invite the murderer to a party these were like halloween or

like horror movie themed ones and i was like oh my god it's me i would invite the murderer to the party and so yeah it was a it was a really fun time. I was very hungover the next day, maybe because I kept pouring alcohol. I don't know. That was probably my fault. You were pouring the, wasn't it the White Walker Jim Beam? Yeah. Or Johnny Walker?

What was it? What was that? Yeah, it was called Johnny White Walker is what it was called. Johnny White Walker. Johnny White Walker. I'll never forget that because I remember I'm very adventurous. I'll drink or eat whatever, right? Like, I'll eat or drink whatever.

But that was, I was like, yeah, yeah. And I was like, oh, I hate this shit. That shit sucked. It was fun to be themed, but I was like, I don't think this is, like, the scotch for me. But this is not. But I was like, I i'm gonna just keep drinking it because we have it and it was fun it was fun we had a theme even though i guess that's not on theme and that it was white walkers versus fire and blood i remember doing shots of that with joe magician me and joe magician did shots of it that you just kept bringing us and he and i were the

only people looking at each other like are these bitches even here i remember we were live streaming there was a live stream and it was chaos i was so afraid he wasn't gonna come so i like followed him around jersey city i was like you're coming you're coming back to the airbnb don willie you're hanging out oh god you're like the ghost of a swath past yeah i was, will you hang out? God, you're like the ghost of Ace Woff past. Yeah. I was like, you gotta hang out. We got this comment from our friend Thunderclap

and he said, this is something that I think you might have a good response for. He said, I know this is a fantasy series, but can you think you'd trust a flamethrower no have you met me uh let alone a dragon i personally like oh flamethrower what an interesting idea i do not want you to have one ever really i think it could be fun um really i think it could be fun um so on one hand i'm pretty sure that like i've seen someone describe dragons as giant fire breathing cats before and i am like a semi cat owner now not

really but semi in kind of a way i bonded with a cat i think but now i don't know i think she's annoyed at me because i keep picking her up but i like, we just have to put you and protect you, Pika. Anyways, I will be very sad when we part. I told you to let her come to you. Well, she does sometimes. She sometimes sleeps in my bed with me now. But I trust this cat with my life. I don't know.

Maybe if my goal was to end it. I don't think we're supposed to trust cats with our lives, is my understanding. So that's how I feel on the one hand on the other hand it depends because i know that there have also been discussions about dragons having psychic bonds with their riders and there seem to be a lot of interviews now where we've seen the cast of hot d describing their characters bonds with their dragons as being something really deep and special so i think that like yeah a single specific rider can trust their own personal dragon right to have their best interests at heart and to know things but for everyone else all bets are off and also like once you die it feels like that dragon has no memory of you

basically in terms of like there is no loyalty when you look at what vagar does and then like what vermin vermin thrax or no vermin thor does there's just no loyalty only vibes is my understanding of what happens once you die i mean like i think that there's like maybe a little bit of memory as we saw when drogon picks up denarius's body but then like in terms of who the next rider is they're like what if i just went to your to the your family's enemies is what happens in the dance and i was like uh okay that's a really interesting perspective to think about for the dragons at all like think about vegar with amand right and something we're kind of we're kind of seeing so yeah like settled down right which is kind of the meta of damon and reneara anyway but like you're mad about it but the Aemond is claiming the dragon

but maybe you should pause on the dickening um there's something interesting though about like if they die they move on right and you know Eliana you won't get this

reference but there's something about that with like the doctor from Doctor Who a tangential reference of just like you know each doctor has the power this isn't a spoiler the show's been out since the 1963s so go fuck yourself uh the doctor can regenerate it's literally only to you eliana but the doctor can regenerate like Like, he, if he dies, he has another life. Like, he can go on to a new face, which is really just an excuse for a new actor. But he can regenerate his body, face, everything. His personality can change.

He can still keep the same memories. And it's the opposite of that. It's like an internal regeneration, right? Like, they are bonding to a new human. eternal regeneration right like they are bonding to a new human i mean you talk about uh your cat you know relationship now which is great i can't wait for you and alice and jaharis to really get together when you're over you're really gonna appreciate them more this time i think because emmet tells me of this memory of you where you're on the floor and you're like no love me to them and they just like walked away

you're like why won't they love me uh so this is a big growth stage for you but especially now that i have the dracarys app i'm seeing these dragons as dogs you know you gotta take them out to walk them eat some goat eat some kid whatever you gotta do there you know they're they're they have that kind of memory span of like all all right, let's go outside, and then all right, we're back indoors where her life's suffering. Does their choosing mean something, right? Like, I don't, my God.

Emmett would, again, Emmett would make fun of me for this if you listened to Emmett's episode, Porklinton's episode of Unleashing Dee, but am I accidentally becoming an Aemond stan? Out of nowhere, but like Amon maybe isn't awful he's just like a shithead you know like he's a little shitty kid kids are shitty sometimes

he kills a lot of people I know that I was a kid kids were shitty then I was probably shitty too honestly and you don't have like a right from wrong morality compass going on naturally it's just a thing that someday gets there you gotta get through experience amand uh i don't know

he does have some boss moves right like alice rivers good choice amand good choice she seems great fun witchy i like witchy woman i don't know uh it's just weird that you know there is that bond think back to twilight right renez may you got that like bond with a dragon dragon riders have to have a very soul bond like the dragon looks and they're like yo you're cool just like you've seen cats don't just look at you and say you're cool you have to earn that you have to very much earn that i mean what you're saying also makes sense right in terms of the the proving yourself and like sort of building that bond which we see we will see with nettles and cannibal right like she goads them and that's kind of like the

way you know or entices them with with like all of the little sheeps and she's like here i'm feeding you and then i mean that's a lot of how domesticity happens and especially with i mean both dogs and cats right you just keep feeding them and they're like it's true yes i do love you thank you for feeding me my uh My cats literally know when we take out the plates that you put treats. They have a wet food they like, and we use that as a treat. It's a special thing. It's the carrot we dangle in front of them for good behavior. But they know.

They hear the plate move on the other plate, and they go, oh, my God, you're giving me the good shit like they know pika knows stupid i mean they're very smart they are she knows well she when she's hungry she'll come in and she'll start meowing and letting everyone know like i'm hungry now right and then my great aunt is the one who likes to feed her. That's like her thing, right? Because she also really, she was there when Pika was a kitten and stuff like that. And when they took her in and I'm over there just like cheering her on, being like, scream, Pika, scream. Yes, let them know.

And I go, meow, meow. Also, along with her, just so everyone knows that Pika's hungry. You get it. You truly get it you know it's an exciting time as a cat you get it i respect that sometimes i'm like am i more cat than human me and my cats get down on the cuddles you know like sometimes i'm like wow we just want to lay like this today I had a really good like at a really good five to seven minute to 30 minute to 47 minutes to maybe 98 minutes of laying in the bed like dissociating right and my cats were like what if we laid around you and I was like yes yes yes like they know they feel emotions they sense it it's weird because like in some ways dragons remind me of dogs with the constant need of taking me out

feeding me animals or children you know, like keep me occupied I'm bored, I'm bored, I'm gonna eat everything, I'm gonna eat the couch but also with the temperament of cats, cats really do understand you, they get it they're like, oh you feel like fuck

let me lay on you let me just get up there bro dogs do that i appreciate that yeah some do some don't some do my dog did eliana something happened while you've been gone and look i'm not trying to say that like while you've been out everything's stalled maybe for me there's been a lot of discourse and me and you like to talk about the discourse so let me introduce you to the discourse that me and you haven't gotten to put our official statement about our feelings about the discourse out but i do want to uh retract as i say this So the title of this discourse is Dreams Didn't Make Us Kings, Dragons Did. This is a quote from Damon Targaryen in the trailers for Hot D.

And why this is the title is because it turns out I've heard a little tiny kind of production-y leaky spoiler that we're gonna get more dragon dreams and you can kind of see it if you watch the trailer. We kind of speculated, poor Quentin and I speculated a little bit about this, that it looks like we're gonna get more dragon dreams for more Targaryens. If you've read Night of the Seven Kingdoms, Dunk and Egg story, Drunk and Egg story, if you're drunk aeswaf original fans, shout out Eliana, because you were there. You were there. If you are OG fans like that, you'll know that like Daeron the Dreamer had dragon dreams, Dunk had dragon dreams, Egg quite obviously had dragon dreams, Daenerys has dragon dreams, all these people have dragon dreams, right? This is the thing. There's a lot had dragon dreams. Daenerys has dragon dreams. All these people have dragon dreams, right?

This is the thing. There's a lot of dragon dreams in this universe. And in 2018, George R.R. Martin said in an interview something that was very interesting about Aegon's dragon dreams. He said, in some sense, he saw what was coming 300 years later and wanted to unify the Seven Kingdoms to be better prepared for the threat he eventually saw coming from the north whoa whoa whoa what that's a that's a loaded

statement to relate to now house of the dragon with ryan condell show running the whole gig lots of people in the writer's room, lots of people sidelining on production and development and directing. This is being brought up in regards to the first episode I'm hearing and Damon's little line we've heard in the trailers about dreams making them, not making them kings, that dragons did. This is interesting. What is your take on this eliana what is what are you thinking about all this they've taken that line a little out of the context right they aren't talking about like dreams and ambition they're talking

about the dragon dreams um and like obviously both are very special aspects of the Targaryen house and family to have both dragons and prophetic abilities. So interesting. They kind of, you know, swerved on us there a bit, but in a good way, like it's going to be even more exciting in context. I will say I haven't looked at any of the leaks, whether they're from the official like the official like premiere of the first episode or some of the other stuff um nor have i listened i know that um house of the dragons official podcast put out a new episode but it was while i was asleep today before we started recording um and i've seen like some of the stuff right regarding prophecy i know a little bit about dragon dreams but i've been trying to not read too much stuff because that is how i like to enjoy media personally but um i obviously i know a little bit of like you know from discussions

about people saying like it sounds like they're they're bringing Dragon Dreams more to the forefront. I feel like we were maybe a little cheated in Game of Thrones on that. Oh, absolutely. We're being spoiled. This is as two people have recently gone through Samwell Tarly's chapters in A Song of Ice and Fire, for example, where we got Aemon's Dragon Dreams, right? Deliberately spoken about. And we get some of that lore brought to the forefront again right king's blood to to wake a dragon that is that is very interesting to bring to the forefront i haven't read more than uh

you know we get viserys talking through the fire in the trailer. And you can kind of see the sparks in the air and that bokeh quality to it all. And you can see there's obviously something afoot. Not war, as Laenor later says. But there's obviously something afoot going on there. And I'm interested to see the capacity of these dragon dreams. I think personally, it's kind of funny because everybody's up in arms about it. Like,

okay. You and I can both understand and agree that when there's something that feels like new information from George or something that is new information from George, it is exciting. You get a little, your blood pulses, right? Like you get a little, oh, dopamine? Serotonin?

Miss Sarah? Where are you? Like you get a little excitement about it. Sarah Targaryen. Yes. Sarah Targaryen? Is it you? Yeah, you get some excitement.

It feels good. So the fact that he's been so active through all of this feels good. It all feels good on that. And the idea that they are actually evolving dragon dreams into their show. A, like you said, it's what we're kind of missing. I mean, dreams in general. Every Targaryen we meet in the story kind of has them question mark we've seen this right we've seen it and now we're seeing the effects it has and it kind of makes sense to say

aegon would have seen the same story because do we not have a dream from danny that night she dreamt she was rhaegar riding to the the trident, but she was mounted on a dragon, not a horse. When she saw the usurper's rebel host across the river, they were armored all in ice. But she bathed them in dragonfire and they melted away like dew and turned the trident into a torrent. Some small part of her knew she was dreaming. Another part exulteded this is how it was meant to be the other was a nightmare and i have only now awakened in a way doesn't it make sense that they've all had the same dream she thinks she's rhaegar on a dragon. Rhaegar was never on a dragon. But that's, she doesn't really know what Rhaegar looks like, right?

Like she has an idea from when she was small, but she doesn't know what he would have looked like at the time on the Trident. Is she not just seeing a faceless Targaryen on a dragon melting the others? Is that not the same dream passed down from generation to generation of targaryen yeah i mean it and it sounds like it's obviously it's her right she's dreaming of herself and it was so hard i mean we see that with amon right he's like oh we never considered that it might be a girl a princess princess, right? Because of the, you know, genderless nature of the noun that's used, right?

I think it's Dari Laros is what David Peterson has given to the word for an heir, right? Like it just means heir. And yeah, and it's kind of funny if like every, I don't know that from my understanding, every like recurring generation has the same dream or like one of like maybe Agen or Dainese, right? Had this dream way, way back then. But if it does like recur, it kind of reminds me and this is spoilers for the movie, Your Name.

Please fast forward about a few, I don't know, seconds if you would like not like to hear this but there i mean it's a supernatural movie in which there's like fun fun stuff i'm not gonna give away all the twists but like prophecy is in it like there's people who constantly have the same like dream of the same like person uh in each generation of this family in your name the wonderful anime movie which is, it's incredibly beautiful everyone should watch it anyways it's on the list, it is now on the list

we can watch it together oh my god you're right, we have so much time to be together next month poor Owen poor Quentin. Please also remove Owen's name. I will remove that.

Okay, I have something that's kind of troll-y. Maybe it's not troll-y. If the dragon- this is all hypothetical. Hypothetically, if dragon dream others, like like if this is an actual thing right which george did semi-confirm it in 2018 that he kind of saw that like

the targaryens have visions where they see heroes for this great thing facing them if that's real it's kind of interesting that there's that theory, right? Like the every brand theory. We have Brandon the builder, Brandon the breaker, the Night King. Just kidding. That's a show theory. And if Bran is every Brandon everywhere, isn't this vision and that vision, aren't those kind of acquainted in some ways? and that vision aren't those kind of acquainted in some ways like isn't that kind of an interesting perspective to have those

parallel that every Targaryen has this vision and every Brandon Stark has this vision of rebuilding Westeros or destroying Westeros or whatever they're seeing or just being able to see things in general right like every Brandon

it's all I can see mystical as shitical as shit Mystical as shit Yeah Prophecy between these several Magical mystical families That Blackwood blood That Valyrian blood

All of that Yeah absolutely I'm not too familiar with every Brandon theory But that is interesting I wonder if they'll see like they'll talk with the Starks and be like oh wow you had this vision too and like

that could be fun that could be cute do you think they're gonna be able in time to figure it out and go wow we've both had this vision what if this is crazy what if we stubbed the others together and it didn't matter as we realize about you know the entire westerosi people you know what if we just like then gave them a better future nothing bad happened half the population wasn't decimated

because of war and famine and the others this sounds really good to me what about prophecy in this story i'm looking forward to it in that game of thrones was so thin on like any of the magical elements right other than like using them for the oh ooh, look, twists, fun, flashbang. They weren't using them in, I think, a really smart way, narratively and dramatically, in the way that, to its fullest extent, that it could have been. And I think that prophecy can be really good for House of the Dragon if they're doing what...

I have read the interviews right like and that's different like and i've been devouring those like as they come out but they're trying to really make these character-driven stories right and really really dig into like the psyche of people and like why do people do what they do right and i think that's something that is clearly what george is interested in it's part of the strength of the whole pov structure uh and obviously fire and blood is more of like the history book element and we heard him talk with game of owns about like oh we were thinking of like what if we did it like this way you know and the different elements but they've chosen to go in a way that is more similar to what we're familiar with is how A Song of Ice and Fire slash Game of Thrones was done.

And again, grounding it in a more objective reality, like as in like not doing a Rashomon kind of thing. And so I think that prophecy can be really, be a strength if they if they do it well and they do it right, because Game of Thrones kind of did it as kind of like a Easter egg thing of like, oh, hey, it's a thing. Right. But they didn't really do much of anything with it other than like magic. Yeah, and there are definitely some very subtle prophecies in fire and blood and i don't know there's something interesting about the fact that game of thrones took that very realistic more gritty christopher nolan style like take right like they were like love what can we do to make this more realistic and sit better with the home viewer, yada, yada, yada. And I think House of the Dragon seems to be embracing some of that weird,

embracing some of the prophecies, like some of the prophecies we may have seen in Fire and Blood. Yeah, I don't know. It could go badly. It could go well. I'm holding out hope right now because George seems really optimistic and seems to like it. And also he has played a strong hand in the development of the show

and some of the prophecies that are in there likely come directly from him. You know, one of the, I'm not sure if I'm understanding this correctly from what I've seen in the discourse or not of like, maybe one of the prophecies is about the downfall of House Targaryen. I'm not sure. And if it is, if I'm not mistaken, I think that this is actually the one that we do get in fire and blood and it's not about denarius targaryen right it's about the hammer that falls upon the dragon and it was mistaken during the dance the passage is and talk was heard in camp of a prophecy of ancient days that said, When the hammer shall fall upon the dragon, a new king shall arise and none shall stand before him.

People in Tumbleton during the Dance of the Dragons thought it applied to the dragon-seed Hugh Hammer, but it seems to apply to Robert Baratheon, who ended up defeating Rhaegar, thereafter became king with the fall of the Targaryens from power. Yeah, that seems pretty straightforward and gives a sense of what's called dramatic irony to that prophecy. Everyone at the time is very sure of Hugh the Hammer being about perhaps signaling the end of the Targaryen dynasty. Cued the Hammer being about perhaps signaling the end of the Targaryen dynasty. And Dramatic Irony is when the audience is more aware of something than the characters and know that the characters are misinterpreting this information. It's a lot like a very famous example of that is the audience knowing of the prophecy in Oedipus Rex and then Oedipus unknowingly doing actions to avoid the prophecy that end up

actually fulfilling it so we'll talk a little bit more about Oedipus and tragedies in a bit but I think it could make sense to like have that brought up in the first season rather than have it introduced later on so that it doesn't feel like an ad hoc, like, oh, sprinkle in there, but kind of playing in again, like playing out this idea of prophecy and magic being much, much more present during this time period, especially because they have the dragons. That is an element of magic, right? Magic is just more powerful at this time.

And A Song of Waste and Fire is about a time when it is a reawakening so that we end up being on the lookout for it. And then we'll see how people being on the lookout for this prophecy might affect their characters. Will it affect the way that they treat Hugh Hammer just upon meeting him because they know of this prophecy, right? It could be really interesting with the whole Dragon Seeds arc. That's such a great point. And something about the language there, right? I have to bring this up.

It reminds me of the Hammer of the Waters. Oh, yeah. Right? The Westerosi legend of the Children of the Forest, that they used dark magic to stop the migration of the First Men to Westeros, and that hundreds of greenseers gathered at Moat Cailin, and that they sacrificed maybe a thousand captive humans to the greenseers so they could use the blood and claim it and use the power.

So basically, they attempted to use the Hammer of the Waters, and they wanted to break the land of westeros in two now our friend manuclear bomb manu the co-host over at nauticast aside poor quinton uh he has a theory that the hammer of the waters could strike again at the neck and cause a very literal divide in westeros right in the future in the winds of winter and A Dream of Spring. And there's almost even something of that quality to that prophecy of the hammer shall fall upon the dragon, a new king shall arise and none shall stand before him. Robert Baratheon was the first theorized person of this theory, but is Bran Stark the second that's interesting that's an

interesting thought of the hammer falling upon the dragon it is interesting or could it be do the children of the forest side with the with the i mean they didn't historically but could it like all the king doesn't have to come from that side right like this could be it just says a new king shall arise would it be about i don't think the the night king plays out exactly the same in the books but if there is like a brand star king i'm just thinking like it could be about the others right like yeah how people struggle to stand before the others right as western all of west rose falls um yeah and the the children of the forest inadvertently also taking out a dragon,

or do they mean to? That's interesting. I mean, George likes to do these three, three, three, what is it? Three-fold reveals, so. I could see several breaks in Westeros, right? In the future coming, that break below the neck, you have a know below the neck you have a break and then

you have another break maybe southern of that that's that's an interesting thing to wonder if that also foreshadows that yeah either way like we know from the audience that this generation of the Targaryens during the dance do not have the prophecy fulfilling at that time like they got that one wrong and that's the nature of prophecy right like you keep looking for it you keep looking for it and then it subsumes your

outlook because you're thinking about it and twisting your interpretation of all these events to fit that I think that we see that a lot with um well raniera right uh there's a chance that she might think prophecies are about herself in this story and talking about kind of the main song of ice and fire story so much you wrote this amazing and i'm not saying this because i love you like if i didn't like you i'd even have to really be forced to be like yeah i respect that

bitch because you wrote this essay called daughter of death and it's about the shakespearean tragedy that is denarius targaryen and i went on a podcast a little while ago, our friends over at Ranking Thrones. And look, I really loved Rhaenyra. I was like, that's my girl boss. And I love her. I respect her, whatever she does. But I want you to know that they talked me down. They were like, Chloe, are you sure? And they got me through it. And by the end, I was like, yeah, she's a four. I get it. She's a four out of 10. I get it. She's ruler leave me alone with her two out of five okay leave me be uh they rationalized my ass so that said I know there are a lot of differences between her and Daenerys's story but there are also a lot of similarities right whether being the chosen one whether being the heir the heir the iron throne

and i want to hear a little bit about some of that shakespearean tragedy from you and you quoted something great from a.c bradley in their piece shakespearean tragedy that said tragedy with shakespeare is concerned always with the persons of high degree often with kings or princes if not with leaders in the state like corleone coriolanus brutus antony or at the least as in romeo and juliet with members of great houses whose quarrels are a public moment and one positive thing about this show is Ryan Condal and other runners of this show have said there's a Shakespearean element going on

and they're building on that. Yeah, and I think, I mean, we've heard it, I think when I first heard it, it was from George, right? That was the impression that he got watching the first season and he described it as feeling like a Shakespearean tragedy. And I wonder if he means that for just the first season or the way that it's being set up. It could be both. And we'll talk about that. But I think long story short, when we talk about Shakespearean tragedy, right, as you've called out in this quote, it usually ends in death for the main heroes, usually the titular character heroes.

For example, Othello, things go badly for Othello. Hamlet, things go badly for Hamlet. Or as you called out in this quote, Romeo and Juliet, Antony and Cleopatra are among those as well. Though I guess this one only calls out, well, Antony features in a couple of plays, so that might be why. And those are driven by a tragic flaw, especially within this person who's of high degree, who's very great, right? They're larger than life person, right? They're capable of large, great things. Sometimes those take them down a dark path, like for example, Macbeth. let a revenge play as long as well as being a tragedy and i'm like wondering as we watch hot d could it be perceived as a revenge play uh we'll have to talk about that there's a lot of things to be revenged that happen during the dance and i do also want to talk about you know when we're talking about tragedy we're talking very specific definitions and genres here not the general meaning

of what we mean by tragedy right like oh that's like a sad thing that happened. We're talking about, again, a specific genre of play in which the titular characters usually, many of them die, as opposed to, you know, Shakespearean comedies, which tend to end in marriage. That is like a focus, a defining feature of Shakespearean comedies, they end in marriage. And again, an example, when we talk about the specific definition, we are also going to talk a little bit about Greek tragedy, which is different, though inspires Shakespearean tragedy, though the two do differ in some of the elements that they contain. Yeah, there's something interesting, right? Like the modernism that's brought to it, the early 20th century, right? And dragons as nukes, right?

Like dragons as nukes is the big, everyone's like, what if you had, as our friend Thunderclap said, what if you had a flamethrower or what if you had a dragon? What happens then? And what happens when tensions and emotions are high? What happens when you feel like you're being very quietly usurped, right? By your new stepmom's children. And you're like, interesting that, you know, I know you have to fuck dad, but my God, I'm the heir.

You said so, so am I the heir still? No, yes. And then also what happens on top of that when you have dragons, right? Like it's one layer to suddenly feel this betrayal that we see in Shakespeare or in Greek tragedy. It's one layer of betrayal. But then also that you can do something about it. Yeah.

That's a whole nother layer. That's like a very scary layer. I'm not always impulsive as an Aries, of all but as a as a fire sign as you know um you know sometimes you have an impulse and sometimes you do follow that and sometimes you're like oh shit i shouldn't have followed that and sometimes if you're an aries and you have a dragon that sounds bad sounds scary yeah i think think I'm excited for them to explore all this with the dragons, because again, that's something that I don't know. That the way magic was used in Game of Thrones really matches to an extent how it's used in A Song of Ice and Fire and Fire and Blood, which is they use magic as a way to sort of give characters the ability to move the story forward.

It's a, it's, it's a vehicle by which the characters can manifest their desires is how magic often operates. For example, the shadow baby, right. Uh,

gives Stannis his wish, but then he's like, is that actually turns out what I wanted? I don't know. And there are manifestations of characters wills wills and and that's pretty much what the dragons are in in several ways like when it comes to that psychic bond but also as you said you want something done you can do it dragons dreams didn't make us kings dragons did he has a point for once daemon Targaryen I mean it's true

I'll be interested to see how he's portrayed and we'll talk about that in a bit but I mean coming back to prophecy right I think prophecy is like a big part of tragedies Shakespearean tragedies like I think Macbeth is like the best example of that like of how it motivates Macbeth

to do certain actions he's like oh yeah that's me and no one can tell me until the do certain actions he's like oh yeah that's me and no one no one can tell me until the force moves and he's like is that the force moving um fuck greek tragedy right again oedipus and the irony of him hearing the prophecy and then playing it out uh greek tragedy though has more of these other elements of peripeteia and hamartia, which are things of like reveals and reversals of fortune. And I think I'm misdefining hamartia here, but there's also like these other things that you're supposed to feel an emotional sort of like release at the end and i don't think from my understanding of fire and blood we don't have those same kinds of reveals that you would see characterized in greek tragedy we do have reversals of fortune but it's not due to any reveals as i under from the way that i

read it but i i could be misinterpreting it and hot d might go a different direction i think that's an important distinction right of the of the greek tragedy versus the shakespearean tragedy in this i never really thought of it that way and i mean realistically i think you were right about hamarsha like it's a fatal flaw right and right there is definitely a fatal flaw uh the the there is definitely a fatal flaw for a lot of the characters i think that's actually one of the most defining things for george in fire and blood but because it's so because it's so distant right because we're not getting povs of each character it's very different were this game of thrones you would see a lot more of that greek tragedy because you get that pov daenerys's chapters uh her hearing prophecy that's maybe about her or mostly about

her but her hearing those things and going wow is this me am i supposed to i'm it so i'm supposed to take drogon and i'm supposed to, right? Like this is it. It's a lot different. It's a lot different than before and I think obviously the gaudy nature of what we're about to see of Targaryen power in King's Landing will help us with that. It will help us

move along with that thought of very different times with very different resources available. Yeah. And again like that's that's important right like for prophecy the way it plays out in denarius's story i think most of all it further isolates her from people right uh the prophecy that she thinks of most is the the treasons and she's already a very lonely person and unfortunately it's really sad and i think that loneliness as we've discussed before is going to be like a big part of

part of her story and is ultimately kind of what i think will drive some of her actions in terms of desperation because what i mean the things that we would as as Jamie Lannister says, the things we do for love, the things we do in pursuit of love as well is what a lot of the story is about. I think prophecy has the potential to heighten the tragedy and story. And that's part of maybe why they've included it in the series, especially when it comes to like that sense of irony. Again, I haven't watched any of these episodes yet. Another prophecy that we've heard and we've kind of talked about is like, Aegon maybe having seen The Long Night. This has been hinted at before by George.

And I don't know, I'd like to see how it plays out for these characters. They're real people with real, they're not real people. They are written to represent, be like real people with real they're not real people they are written to represent be like real people right with these very realistic flaws and i stress that because i mean they're characters like people can feel however they want about them and i've seen questions of like people not understanding like why then didn't all the targaryens do something knowing that like this danger uh was there in terms of realism. I want to, I mean,

look at our current world with all of these crises, like the pandemic, or I think climate change might be more one-to-one comparison in terms of longevity. I don't know that that's what George is pulling inspiration from, but I'm just saying like, look at the way that our world and our leaders have handled this. They have not, they have handled it poorly and if it makes sense why would we hold uh characters who are meant to reflect our own flaws to that higher standard leaders alone i mean we see them get sidetracked right we see them passionately care

we see them from the very start passionately care about something and we see that sidetracking happen and we watch them very slowly zigzag away from the main plot and we do that with Daenerys for example and we'll talk about Rhaenyra here we do that with Rhaenyra too that you know both characters have a vision and from you know exploitation and loneliness slowly but surely those leaders get dragged away from the main goal and we watch that in our real world too right like you have that cute little girl gang in the united states that they're so progressive our progressive besties they're unfortunately the best we have right like i like them a lot but they are our hired officials that's the best we have for hired officials i i respect them for that

but everyone else really sucks because they've all been pulled in from the further exploits and trades and deals and the money that they can make and the you know shoveling people beneath them it doesn't matter to them and it's that very as as i will say, I believe Ryan Condal said recently, there's a thin line, right, between what you're going to use your power for. There's definitely a thin line of how you use it. And there's definitely that similarity in Daenerys and Rhaenyra of the loneliness, right? It's lonely up upon that very, very high throne and being exploited by others for their power right many others are exploiting them for their power and also that three betrayals that you'll know three treasons that you'll know raniera as we watch her through fire and blood

and we get less and less and less of her point of view right we don't have point of view that's true at the beginning but even as we go it diminishes it disappears betrayals you shall know raniera knows betrayals and each one seems to hollow her out it really feels like there's a lot of similarities that we can follow in this show and it's funny because it's like the prototype like we actually get to see well now you see why raniera did this and now season eight could almost make sense maybe almost maybe eight years from now oh my god ask my god unleash it oh my gosh but like yeah i mean like and that makes sense because it's it's the people who are closest to her right this is a time when there is an abundance of targaryens

they are described as being at the height of their power and we have them coming off the heels of you know a family that they've seen that mostly backed each other up right like jaharis's family was very tight-knit and they're coming off of that legacy viserys likely remembers that and that's what he wants for his family. And Rhaenyra experienced love. It's really sad what happens to her. And she pushes away all of these people because, and it makes sense, right? When you're hurt over and over again, you want to avoid that hurt and that pain. And especially as you lose people, right?

I mean, she starts out the story with so many trusted confidants and the whole thing kind of shatters we'll probably see that you know with with corley's right and the breaking after ravey's passes and i mean he's also someone who loses his whole family too right he loses his son and his daughter and then his wife he has his two other sons and one of them will like i mean he goes to his death allegedly like... I mean, he goes to his death. Allegedly. Uh, not his son. But he goes to his death, you know? Adam of Hall. Yes. Loyal. That is your...

That's gonna be... I can't wait to hear your thoughts when that does happen in, what, season two? Three? I don't know.'s three right well that would happen in three but i'm sure we'd be introduced to them in two probably yeah started two they'd be the stannis melisandre davos probably get dragon seeds in two well and i'm not i'm not actually kidding because alan for example alan is yeah the Davos as you and I have discussed previously.

Oh, yeah. Go home. Go home, Alan. What are you doing? Go home to your wife, Alan Valerian. Actually, literally, though. First of all, I'm just so thrilled. I'm just thrilled that you're here today with us at Girl Gone Canon.

And I want to know, what are you looking forward to the most? Like, what is like the one thing you want to see on a screen from this fucking book? Oh, I don't know. What do I want to see the most? Nettles or, I mean, I know you like her. What else do you like? You like dragons, doggos? I don't know. I think like the whole thing like i'm just excited this is the one this is the one that i wanted adapted as i've told

people you can go listen to that maester monthly episode right uh this is the one that i wanted adapted and i'm you know i'll i've said it in private i'll say it on the record now i've had ideas of like what i think the show should do. And I've been really impressed with the ones that I've been hearing of the direction that they're taking. And it sounds like they're really deepening it in ways that are novel, that make sense. This is something that the history books wouldn't show you, especially biased historians, like how Gildane is portrayed to be. Misogynist historians, it's like the way that Gildane is portrayed to be right uh misogynist story it's just like the way that gildane is meant to be portrayed and i'm excited with the way that they're taking it and i'm like that's that is a better idea than the the ones that i had so for a lot of them so um there's

that i think i'm interested in seeing how they do viserys in the first season i wonder if he's the one that they're talking about also as a Shakespearean tragedy, especially with the way that the first season's arc will play out. It sounds like my assumption is that they're going to make him the central character to make his loss at the end really pointed out. I'm sorry, there are children screaming everywhere. I'm with my family.

They are hopefully not betraying me at any point in time. Yeah. as you were but you know like Viserys it could be interesting for them to make him the focus as this tragic character and his flaw is he wants he's this loving man like he cares

deeply about his family and I think it could be interesting going off of that of how they deepen Daemon's character and make it a real hurt when he's no longer the heir, make it something very deeply felt because they have a close, close bond. And then also how does he balance those interests between what's right for his brother and what's right by his daughter.

And then also finally what's right by the realm. And I think the, and then the what's right by his daughter and then also finally what's right by the realm and i think and then the what's right by the realm we see um you know alison telling him you you have to remarry that's your duty as a king and then that ends up being the downfall of the rest of his family i'm gonna blow your mind that was raniera that said it not alice oh was it oh sorry my bad it was no it's okay I just want to tell you you're a fake fan no I'm just kidding um no I just want to tell you that I didn't know either I thought it was Alison but it's actually Rhaenyra that says I get it you gotta remarry dad whatever yeah that makes it that's a little deeper too I guess that adds to

the irony that adds to the irony of how it all plays out to the shakespearean tragedy you could say because i'm sure she was like you got to remarry dad but i didn't think you're gonna do it to my best friend that's probably how it's gonna go i really love that like i do love i love the flatlining of ages in this circumstance they did it to our starkarks. They did it to Danny. They did it to all these characters that we knew it was going to happen to in the main show, right? That they were going to age them up a little, HBO it. But here I think it actually works to bring them to the same age and put them on that same playing field.

And it's something maybe I didn't necessarily think about before, but I know they've said, you know, you have that Arya Stark kind of quality of Rhaenyra of, you know, she has the loophole. Like you're not supposed to play with swords and dragons, kid, but we're going to let you this time. And by the way, now you're heir. That's an interesting premise. That's the opposite of watching Dany struggle,

knowing that she is the heir, even though no one wants to say it you know what i mean like it's the exact opposite of i am air and watch me struggle as i try to claim it it's the same in reverse it's like listening to whatever pink floyd song backwards right whatever that shit is listen to a song backwards night of the true meaning there are hidden messages well here's the hidden message Westeros would burn before they let a female rule the Iron Throne says Rhaenys

or whatever she says interesting interesting and we've discussed this you know this is in our Dance of the Dragons episodes I've seen people being like I don't know how I feel about them making gender and I'm like how can you not think that the whole thing is about like yeah it's about daemon and reneria as like one of the succession questions and i'm like it was always

about it's always about gender like you go back to reina not being allowed to ride her dragon on the procession and that undercuts the Targaryen rule like that undercuts their power later on when it comes to keeping Westeros in line because he because Aenys was afraid to let no no because Aenys was afraid to let Rhaena

look more powerful than Aegon and that because he'll look weak he says yeah and that fucks them they end up getting captured that fucks them and they're stuck there they can't get out he dies yeah so it was during that procession right because i couldn't it's unclear on the wiki yeah if she had a dragon yeah i was like i know you just read it so i was like she knows yeah so like if reina had been allowed to bring her dragon that wouldn't again

going back to that line dreams didn't make them kings dragons did and they wouldn't allow reina to look more powerful and then again reina makes it clear to jaharis i've stepped down and i've let you be the king and that that's, I think, part of why Jaehaerys is so afraid to ever name a female heir because then does it delegitimize his rule beyond the other parts

of where he clearly feels that women have certain roles in the household, which is why he keeps mirroring off his daughters to their... whatever. Yeah, Alysanne. Honey, I think roles in the household which is why he keeps mirroring off his daughters to their whatever yeah aliceanne honey i think daenerys should technically be the queen of everything jaheras yeah yeah sure honey we'll talk about it later bullets ah sweating bullets she's caught on yeah yeah it's something that and it makes me so excited.

We're going to see this fucking great council, right? Like we're going to see Jaehaerys. We're going to see Septon Barth, it looks like, with his little seven pointed star. Look at him. Oh yeah, I am excited. It looks so, that scene, like that, that, or not, I don't know, photo shoot with that chair.

It looks so good it's stupid how good it looks am i just thirsty or am i what what's the deal because it looks stupid good it all looks really good eliana should we be should we the viewers and listeners from unleash the d eliana uh should we be excited what's your. Should we be excited? What's your take? Should we be excited? I don't know. Are you excited? I am excited, and I'm afraid to be excited.

Like, what if, again, what if I am the one who's being betrayed again? You know? This is our treason. This is our third treason. This is the one that's going to get us. Two treasons you should know. Oh, my God. Game of Thrones and House of...

I don't know, but I'm going to choose to be excited with you and Snow the third treason it's a third treason for Dany too when you think about it damn Eliana thank you so much for joining us

tonight I've had such a good time chatting with you about House of the Dragon on the final Unleash the D, the seventh. Thank the seven for the final Unleash the D. The primer, the premiere primer series about House of the Dragon on

Girl Gone Canon while we wait for our other hosts to come back. It's you. It's Eliana. We will be back next week 8-12 for public with our friend Nate from Brotherhood Without Manners you have to check them out we'll be back to our prologues we'll be talking about Pate and A Feast for Crows and we'll be back the week after that I'm gonna give you a double reveal this is really exciting with Varamyr. Our pro-gamer Varamyr.

In a dance with dragons. And with another member. From Brotherhood Without Manners. Zach. Very excited to have my good friends Zach and Nadod. And after that we'll have. After that we'll have a new POV. Who even knows what's going to happen.

I don't know. I do not have dragon dreams. I can't see. I don't have. I do not have dragon dreams. I cannot see the future. I don't know. Oh, my God. As always, I have been one of your hosts, Chloe.

That's it. That's your only host. That's it. Eliana, do you need them to follow you on the Internet? Yeah, you can all find me I would recommend just finding me on my podcast Girls Gone Canon

you can find us at twitter.com slash girlsgonecanon c-a-n-o-n or on patreon.com slash girlsgonecanon yeah I think that's where people can usually find me Chloe or on patreon.com slash girls from canon. Yeah, I think that's where people can usually find me, Chloe.

Perfect, perfect. Thanks again, Eliana. And we can't wait to have you back to the podcast, except the podcast's over. This is it. The podcast is over, so we won't have you back. But thanks again. Thanks again, and we'll return for house of the dragon our song of ice and fire pov series and of course for the amber spyglass to finish it

out it's hayley bowery from the minerals thanks everyone and we'll talk to you soon