Girls Gone Canon Cast - The Book of Dust Episode 2 - La Belle Sauvage Chapters 4-5

Episode Date: October 30, 2020

The next step in a very long journey down the river has arrived! Coram van Texel pays a visit to learn about the alethiometer and current events then gets paid another visit out on the street, ending in a scuffle. Malcolm also learns about the alethiometer while making the acquaintance of scholar Hannah Relf - but most importantly, Jesper.  Please note that unlike the His Dark Materials episodes, La Belle Sauvage episodes will be spoilers all with the exception of The Secret Commonwealth.    Jesper emoji: =_____=  Building Lo mentioned: https://www.uu.se/en/about-uu/history/buildings/  Lo's blog: https://lothelynx.wordpress.com/ --- Eliana's twitter: https://twitter.com/arhythmetric Eliana's reddit account: https://www.reddit.com/user/glass_table_girl Eliana's blog: https://themanyfacedblog.wordpress.com/ Chloe's twitter: https://twitter.com/liesandarbor Chloe's blog: www.liesandarborgold.com Intro by Alexander Nakarada; Background music from Bensound.com

Hello and welcome to Girls Gone Canon covering His Dark Materials, Book of Dust, La Belle two girls gone canon covering his dark materials book of dust labelle sauvage episode two chapters four through five of labelle sauvage episode one previously covered one through three i am one of your hosts chloe and i am another one of your hosts eliana if you are hearing this episode for the very first time hello welcome to episode 2 of La Belle Sauvage. However, this was previously released exclusively for patrons up until October 2020. Yes, it was. But we will be, of course, picking back up and releasing a very, very brand new episode, episode 3 of La Belle Sauvage, which will likely cover chapters six, seven, and eight. And that'll come out the last week of

November, probably alongside, what, Thanksgiving here in the United States. Give thanks for B.B. Lyra. Something to be thankful for. Whose child is this? Marissa Coulter's and Lord azriel's oh god throw it out

throw it in the garbage no i'm just kidding do not throw my baby girl in the garbage but we are kind of excited for another thing that lyra's been in recently which is the hbo bbc production of his dark materials we've been covering the trailer, the trailer drops as they come. So check that out. And we're really excited for season two, but we're a little bummed because there's no love for the United States of the Girls Gone Canon, which I'm going to be honest with you. I wouldn't give the United States that love either. But the United States of the Girls Gone Canon, we are very drastically sad because it's going to come out on November 16th in the US on HBO. And it's going to be coming out on November 8th for BBC. So what this means as far as episode cadence, we don't know. We can't tell you yet.

Yeah, I mean, to be honest, we're figuring it out. We're still trying to determine what we think is the best path forward. And, you know, let us know your thoughts, what you would like for us to do. We'd love to hear from you. I think that, you know, knowing our listeners' opinion will also, like, help us understand what the best thing to do is because we're unsure. And it's pretty hurtful. How dare they do this to us like they know that we do not just have a knife that we can take to cut open the very

fabric of time and space and travel between worlds to a different time zone where we can watch this so they know this and they still did this knowing this also i don't know what's gonna happen next week the first week of november which many of you might know is kind of a big deal in the united states and like regardless of what happens i need this all right i need this soon after i just i do i in fact do uh anyway so yes so thank you for coming and tuning in with us for La Belle Sauvage. We are going to, of course, for patrons, $5 and up, releasing a special episode that will, in fact, be patrons only about his dark materials covering Lyra's Oxford, the novella of about when Lyra's 15 years old. Yes, a very fun mini episode about Lyra and some burbs.

So please tune into that. That's patreon.com slash girlsgonecanon, C-A-N-O-N. Again, that is for all of our stranger patrons in the $5 and up tier. We release a special episode that is either a Song of Ice and Fire themed or His Dark Materials themed depending on the month, every other month. So tune in.

We might be starting a small mini project, casual mini project soon. Stay tuned for that. But thanks for tuning in. Here's LaBelle Sauvage episode 2. Enjoy. And I'll jump into Upsala. Upsala! Chapter 4 of I was going to say historic materials

and I was like no La Belle Sauvage the beautiful sausage where would we be if we didn't open this chapter though of course yet again with an email from our good friend Lo and actually this one we kind of really have to because A first of all

as you all know or as a reminder, Lo has in fact hosted a Girls Gone Canon episode, sending in their own episode with one of your other hosts, Tutiki the cat yes it was the best episode, personally

like I'm just putting it out there I'm not saying replace me, but replace both of us is what Chloe is saying but also as a reminder everyone you too can send in your own episode of Girls Gone Canon you can tweet it

at us on twitter at girlsgonecanon or email to us at girlsgonecanon at gmail.com I'm still looking you know I'm still looking shout out to I believe it was Nicole who sent us some of her puppy squad. So. Yes, that's close.

That's almost an episode. Once you get those puppies up and walking and talking, get them analyzing, researching. And I do, I do want to add that, you know, a lot of people have been reaching out asking for parameters on what this episode should be, how to do it, what chapter to do, etc. I don't care. This is about you. Not me. I want you to put your heart into it. I want it to be about you.

I want you to show me what makes you a girl, Gong Cannon. You know what I mean? That's all. That's all. It's the spirit of the cast. Exactly. Chloe and I do whatever we want. As we'll remind you constantly, we're like, it's our podcast, we can do whatever we want.

And we want you to bring that spirit to your episode of Girls Gone Canon. So with that said, somewhere that Lo prepared to do this episode. Lo is, in fact, a former student studied at the University of Uppsala, which is our location for Chapter 4, that brings us back with a familiar face, Coram van Texel. So we get his last name here, and a couple of professors. It's in fact the oldest university in Scandinavia, founded in 1477, has a lot of really close ties to the church, and it's interesting that they have an alethiometer, as is discussed in this episode,

have an alethiometer, as is discussed in this episode, and which makes sense because as we learn, Bologna University is another, they are one of the oldest, if not the, in the world, and Lo actually has given us a link that you will find in the description of this episode, along with an emoji that we feel really encompasses Jesper, and this description shows the building that the meeting discussed here would have taken place in.

Yes, the most famous professor from Uppsala University is someone you actually might recognize, Carl Linnaeus. He dealt in classifying flowers, animals, humans, and sorted them into races. This became kind of the foundation of eugenics. Oops. And later, Uppsala becomes the Swedish State Institute for Racial Biology, which Lowe has written about to extent.

We will definitely have to link their blog. And we've mentioned some of this back in our Northern Lights episodes. Linnaeus actually turns up in the Secret Commonwealth. No spoilers. And Lowe says botany becomes very relevant in this book as chloe has hinted at maybe maybe i have low writes they think it will still be relevant moving forward in the last of the companion trilogy yeah i remember you discussing scents for things and i don't know what that's like um So to start off our chapter, three men sit in the study at the University of Uppsala.

We've got Gunnar Haugrimson, who is a bachelor of 60-ish and professor of metaphysical philosophy with a robin demon perched on his shoulder. And he's got his friend Axel lofgren professor of experimental theology with his ferret demon a lot of names to learn just now and then of course coram van texel the eastern of the eastern anglia egyptians and his beautiful autumnal cat i love this this line is everything 10 years after this evening, and again, 10 years after that, Lyra would marvel at the coloring of that demon's fur. So first of all, pew, pew, pew, Sophonax. I'm very happy. We all know that I have a certain affection for that cat, that demon. And I love how Pullman contextualizes this book. that demon. And I love how Pullman contextualizes this book. A little meta, pull your chair up, everyone. He didn't want to call this book a prequel, because then it would imply it has a certain time stream or canon. However, he did just kind of certify like, oh, Lyra's gonna see this

cat again in 10 years, and then another 10 years after that, saying that things are going to happen in the future, he calls this part one of a companion trilogy to his dark materials. He conceived the Book of Dust before the publication of Lyra's Oxford in 2003, and originally it was a single volume. So when I say he's been planning certain things and I'm like, oh, I wonder if this loops in, I'm no longer bullshitting. This was in The Guardian in an interview in 2003 with Vanessa Thorpe and Jonathan Haywood and Pullman. And it's written.

It is published. Lyra's Oxford was actually supposed to bridge the two books. But the Book of Dust ended up being a longer and longer book. And so that extra lantern slides that we did the episode on for patrons, where we talk about these lantern slides that he published in 2007, in the versions of all the books, he was well into writing the first Book of Dust by 2005. So these scraps that he put into this republishing, those really added a ton of context to this series. By 2011, he decided to split this into two novels, one prequel-esque novel, one later novel. So that would be this one and The Secret Commonwealth. But 2017 came and he was like, ah, it's gonna be a companion trilogy. He told NPR that and that was a huge thing in 2017. So

they had some switching around on publishers. They settled with Fickling in the UK and Knopf in the US in October of 2017. And he's not quite the gardener like George R. R. Martin. We read some of his series and it's not quite the same as how he likes to weave. He likes to let things grow and prune them where he needs to. Philip tends to be a little more calculated in how he writes, but he realized he had a lot more to explore as he went along, which I really like this exploration. I think having Coram come here and having this be an event in Coram's past

that kind of builds his character is really interesting. And my only regret is that he still hasn't redeemed witches. Interesting. But yeah, as you said, not quite a gardener, but it sounds like it's interesting to hear how different writers talk about their way and process of how they write, because Pullman's language seems to be more around of a discovery, right? Like the world already exists there

for him to find, and the story in a way, and he's just going through it and discovering it all. So, that could explain why he's so into explorers, now that I think about it. Anyways, Coram arrived with a letter from an acquaintance of the professor's, the consul

in Trollesund. He's offered to Kay, because there's only one the consul in Trollisand. He's offered to Kay, because there's only one kind of alcohol in this world, apparently. That's a joke, there's other kinds of alcohol, but this is the one that comes up all the time. It's a big deal. Which Coram regards as a rare pleasure,

and they chat about how Martin Lanselius is doing. Martin Lanselius, what a familiar name, right? We've spoken about kind of the political connotations of Tokai in the real world before. So this is really exciting that, yes, we're seeing it poured in the beginning of the first book of a trilogy. Feels like good times, right? And some of these notable instances that we see Tokai used kind of tend to be almost political instances or almost pretty big communication instances.

We have the poison Tokai with Asriel in Northern Lights. We actually have Lancelius offering Tokai to Seraphina Pegala, which is a nice connection with him because we do meet him in Northern Lights. We actually meet him with Coram and Lyra. This introduction is also a nice touch, though when we meet Lanselius with Lyra and Coram, it's daylight, so they have coffee, right? In The Subtle Knife, Boreal offers Marisa Tokai when she visits him

while Will is spying outside and Lyra as well, slash inside. And later that's rounded out when Marisa offers Boreal wine and it's poisoned, right? It gets a little canceled out in the end. The Amber spyglass, Lyra and Rogers go speak about the wine they had back in, of course, Jordan. It could have been Tokai, but they don't know. To be young, not to be able to tell the difference between the alcohol that you drink the night before and then the day after, you know?

They just threw it all back up. Little fucking waste. Oh, God. Scum of the earth. Later in the Amber Spyglass, Azrael feasts and offers Tokai in the Amber Spyglass to King Ogunwe, the angel Zaphonia, Madame Oggzentiel, the Galavespian, and Tucros Bellicidis when he tells them their motives have changed protecting Will and Lyra. And he's like, you know, we have to protect them like the Republic depends on it because it kind of does. They are the last hope. And now we've opened the fourth chapter of the Belcivage with

Tokai. And a political machination is happening here. Coram, who is seen as a political underdog, is actually pulling strings and playing the plays in this scene, unbeknownst to Hal Grimson and Lufgren. We'll see this played out in the next chapter with the Chocolatel as well with Hannah and Malcolm. Very interesting that all the things you pulled out with the Tokai. I think it's kind of hilarious that Asriel offers

it to all these people. Maybe the Chocolatel kind of functions similarly, but for kids. Anyways. Coram says Lanselius is studying the witch's religious system, or would like to, more deeply, and Halgrimson says he thought of studying it himself, but his studies led him elsewhere.

Lofgren is a professor of theology and then says into the void. And we, of course, remember Martin Lanselius, as we were saying from the main trilogy. And I guess I've just like never really thought of it. Like he just like went and was like, I don't know,

filled out a job application was like, I would like to be the witch's console now. Like it was that simple. Yeah. It's interesting that he's worked there so long, too. It doesn't feel like a position that he may last so long in, right? Not like, for like a decade? Over a decade?

I guess for me, I kind of felt like Martin Lanselius would have worked there way longer. You know, like it was like a lifetime. Like a thing you're chosen for. That's what I mean. He just went and was like, lifetime like a thing you're chosen for not that that's what i mean like he just went and was like i'd like to put in my cv well and like what's and it's interesting that is a point especially with some of the stuff we're going to talk about later with uh with geneva but he was shocked when lyra could read the Alethiometer, right? And this chapter is providing that backwritten relationship for him, Lancelius, with Hal Grimson to help support this.

So he learns about the witches through his career choice, and he already has this extreme knowledge from his friendship with Hal Grimson and the Alethiometer, and that this knowledge exists out there. We see, of some importance to he's the one that gives Lyra the test to prove that she's Eve. So he does have to be kind of an important person to be able to do that. They're not just going to trust the intern to do that. Right? You know, they're actually be like, hey, fill the coffee. And when you're done, can you test, you know, like the mother of all everything over there? I don't know,

you're done can you test uh you know like the mother of all everything over there i don't know not not something they want to get into and quorum is actually supposed to have come here with an introduction from lancellius which means that he's known lancellius for a very long time he doesn't really seem that well acquainted with quorum in northern lights and he doesn't have to be right like that doesn't really matter i don't care but i was surprised that there wasn't too much more backstory but i guess he probably would have at least known him from the witches right and how like i don't know like lancellius probably saw farter quorum do a walk of shame from seraphina probably that's true and it's like oh that's a piece of gossip i overheard i'm just saying other people who came through. Yeah, yeah.

But I mean, I think what you said is interesting that it doesn't seem like they're that well acquainted in Northern Lights. And some of these, right, maybe the Takei and the Martin Lansais is kind of just kind of tying it together. Yeah, absolutely. As a companion book, right? Putting that place setting to be like,

remember that book series that you all loved? And again, speaking of that book series that you all loved, the Into the Void remark that Lofgren makes is kind of fun and just feels to me kind of reminds me a little of Lyra's parents. Isn't it nice

to be able to talk about the Amber Spyglass freely? I feel so free right now with you, Eliana. And I didn't even think of that, but that's brilliant, especially because Marisa, of course, becomes the topic of discussion in this chapter. And I also love that Lofgren is calling his work into the void because Lofgren's character, as we keep moving on, is displayed as so skeptical. So I just thought that was such a perfect way to write it.

And I don't know, I just thought that was really interesting. He actually is an interesting character in this. I thought the way that he's handled, like with how Coram handles him and how he talks to him and lets him preen and like works him is very interesting. And he actually then says something even more interesting. very interesting. And he actually then says something even more interesting. I'm not going to spoil anything, but this is one of those times where I'm like,

huh, this phrase made me think of the secret Commonwealth where he says that every time he sees a bottle of Tokai, there's fewer and fewer than before. So Tokai is very special and fine. And like, it's running out, baby. Resources are going.

Or like the dust, right? right apparently what you can find bottles of takai for like 20 okay well they didn't just have google in this book it's true you had to get connected all right well skipping the spoilers quorum cuts the chase and he gives this story and says, Lancelius told him they had a truth measurer and he wants to consult it about the threat that Britain poses to the Egyptians in limiting their rights. His question is threefold, he says, on how to deal with the threats, which are opposition, negotiation, and which threats he should just skip entirely and just hide from. They did a lot more of the development of Gyptians in the show, and I know they used the Books of Dust to add some detail,

at least in the first episode with Lyra's story of her younger years, her baby infant years. And with some of the characters we meet in the Secret Commonwealth and with some of the stuff in the Fens here and with Coram coming up, I really do hope they get more from that. I think they're probably going to bring some of that detail in. I'd be excited to see it. Nevertheless, you bet your ass I was excited that we opened a chapter up when I read this with Coram Van Texel and Sophanax. The Sophanax. My baby. I just I was so excited. It was just a real treat that she is bright and in the center. And she has a very big role in this chapter. This chapter is a big chapter for Coram. I think that the Egyptian struggle is pretty prominent. This is obviously, as we know, a false-ish statement from him to them. The Egyptians very much so are, well, not not loved by Britain and by their government,

right? They are looked at as a commodity or resource. And the difference is, of course, Coram Van Texel does not need help figuring these things out. He's a strong leader, and he and his people have come together to already figure out how they're going to deal with all this. He obviously is here for something else. And the Egyptian struggle I once related to the Roma on a very basic level in the beginning of when we were analyzing these books due to the etymology and the nature of the Egyptians as a nomadic people. Our friend Lo actually kind of reinforced some of it with some of these really great details of its influences and geography. And that was really helpful. It helped me kind of contextualize these ideas I had and this includes

the State Institute for Racial Biology in Uppsala that we talked about at the top of the episode. Some of the things we've learned from this about this institute is that they would induct children into schools to civilize them and force them to take part in ethnographic studies or scientific studies carried out by the Institute for Racial Biology in the early 20th century. The Egyptians, like the Roma, are a migratory nomadic people out of survival. Their very communities they establish come under threat from these colonial governments that are looking for control of their resources or their people or the land that they have staked out. They are nomadic out of necessity. In our world, in 1554, the parliament in England passed a law that made being a gypsy a felony punishable by death. That many of these Roma children that are in the EU aren't registered at birth for a variety of reasons, like accessibility to health care,

inability to afford that health care, location of the health care, fear of public institution, rightfully so, and least of all, unawareness of the need to register. This leaves these child stateless, and they can't gain citizenship, education, or health care or protection when they become refugees and try to go somewhere else where they aren't constantly trying to be murdered by their state. La Belle Sauvage and the Secret Commonwealth focus strongly on sanctuary. Whether scholastic sanctuary, refugees of war looking to rebuild community and homes even today roma people are being deported for seeking formal asylum in germany in france going back to 1951 the un convention actually set a precedent saying that sending asylum seekers

back to a country with a well-founded fear of persecution of the people attached to them is a violation of human rights. So this is a fight that has been going on for all of our time, as we know, forever and ever. And throughout the story, we do get to see these Egyptians who have seemingly established a home in Britain lose some of these rights and their children when we get to the main series at an alarming rate, which displays the power of Britain's government, which we know where that power and where that force is coming from. And it is, of course, coming from the authority. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's a really great breakdown of that context that sets up

all those atrocities that, as you said, happened in the main series. As much as these men want to help Coram, they explain it's not quite that easy for, I guess, I don't know, multiple reasons. But when it comes to his question, they're like, all right, so this is the thing that we would be asking. All right, you think it's going to be easy? It's not. Look at these 36 painted pictures. And they show him like, look, we got to tune these knobs. And also like, what does it mean? Helgrimson shows him how he would read the question. He's like, all right, mean? Halgrimson shows him how he would read the question. He's like, all right, the sun would stand for kingship, authority, and law. The griffin for buying and selling things because of its association with treasure. And then the dolphin because, I don't know, water, right? And I don't

know. In general, it seems like magical beings like griffins love, this is a side thought, protecting treasure, hoarding treasure in general i did like that and it's interesting i guess greek texts do depict griffins with gold deposits of central asia which is actually a place of focus in the future and plinny the elder wrote griffins were said to lay eggs in burrows on the ground and these nests contained gold nuggets. That's pretty fun. I didn't know griffins I've never really thought about griffin biology and how they would give birth.

I think I kind of took it for granted that like you know, they got the the lion body. I wouldn't really have thought that they laid eggs. No, they lay golden eggs. Apparently. Out of their butts, apparently. I mean, you know, maybe it's not just that they've got wings.

They also have a cloaca. Right? This is the discussion now. Also, another thought that's not that big, but I have never really thought about how there are

36 pictures, and therefore each of them take up about, what, 10 degrees of the dial? And then all the knobs are evenly spaced. They point out that the knobs are, what, 120 degrees apart. So they're all evenly spaced. Never really thought about it until now. And I've also never really thought about until now, like, the alethiometer. In every single one of the alethiometers, do they have all the symbols in the same order does it matter it probably doesn't but i'm just like i would be interested to know like the origin of each of them when they were created were they all created at the same time

yeah created by separate philosophers at separate time like is this looked at as the philosopher's stone right like a recipe that someone could maybe someday attain. I don't know. Which Malcolm kind of wonders. He's like, why don't we do this again? Yes. The professor explains that by turning these knobs, they will get an answer, but that the reader of these knobs must be alert, but at the same time calm,

like a hunter, lying in wait no nervous energy but ready to pull the trigger which this is really interesting because this is what quorum goes and does in the alleyway right after this right he's calm like a hunter lying in wait with no nervous energy but ready to pull the trigger and he relates it to archers he has seen in nippon and the professor says that the difficulty continues past that he's like that's great that sounds like a nice story quorum anyways back to my problem and he's like it gets harder there's tons of meanings for every single symbol it could mean anything yeah quorum i just happen to own one of these instruments that i'm not willing to use

because i'm not very good at using it actually Actually, that's so annoying now that you think. I guess it's not that he owns it. He just happens to be caring for it here at the university and other people come and use it like Hannah Ralph does. Whatever. Okay, I'm done. Anyways, it's interesting to think that, you know, some of these symbols, right, as they've mentioned, they go hundreds of rungs down in meeting. And we actually talked a lot about how the alethiometer works in terms of linguistics during our coverage of northern light slash the golden compass if you want a refresher on that but i don't know to be honest the readings of the alethiometers it doesn't matter which book it is like these are actually some of my favorite

scenes just in general they bring me great joy i love all the different explanations for what symbol stands for what thing in the alethiometer and i just love yes and it's great because we get alethiometer use in this chapter and then of course with hannah in the next chapter we see it again from a different angle which was really satisfying for me as well yeah i got sad when like they were just skipping it over and they're like lyra asked this question and then they got this answer i'm like no tell me how it works give me the pictures anyways well i skipped over unfortunately a lot of the beautiful stuff today for you in this chapter i'm sorry eliana but i know it's in your heart and in your

mind what matters is that i get to read it. Anyways, Lofgren is skeptical, though, of how this whole process works and asks, you know, how are the meanings discovered? Lofgren thinks he's so smart. Hal Grimson explains by contemplation, meditation, and experiment, which Lofgren responds that he believes in experiment. And Hal Grimson is like, I'm surprised to hear you believe in anything like i'm surprised here you believe in anything or good to hear that you believe in something right and it's kind of an interesting dialogue here going on because of course they're meant to be experimental theologians they're professors

they're into inquiry and especially when it comes to you know experimental theology is a fancy word for science in this world that idea of faith and evidence or faith versus evidence that it would be a science that is rooted in a lot of faith and the difference with belief right but i there is an aspect to which some of it you know we can prove a lot of scientific concepts but the idea of faith being mixed into it, especially with the way that the series is what it is. Yeah, absolutely. This question of religion and faith and spirituality and the question of matter and spirituality, which these gentlemen will delve into in a moment. And once again, the theme of this chapter and of the next is threefold. Hannah Ralph later will explain her work is threefold. Earlier, we had the threefold mentioned

already in this chapter once. And now Hal Grimson says that it's contemplation, meditation, and experimenting, which is how they've come to these different conclusions, which is threefold. And it's actually what a lot of neuroscience was developed by a metacognitive contemplation these all just sound like science buzzwords i think we're both gonna say throughout the episode we're not scientists but i'm gonna be honest sometimes this stuff just looks like they're making up stuff like they're just saying words they're just saying words about words about stuff what science we don't know it's real i think i just like i'm just like yeah sometimes they just sound like words magnets how do they work

some other fucking miracle oh my god no we have this quote here regarding the alethiometer and how readings work but what matters is not the similarities your imagination finds, but the similarities that are implicit in the image, and they are not necessarily the same. I've noticed that the more imaginative readers are often the less successful. Their minds leap to what they think is there rather than waiting with patience. And what matters most of all is where the chosen meaning comes in the hierarchy of meanings, you see. And for that, there is no

alternative to the books. That is why the only alethiometers we know about are kept in or by great libraries. Hmm. I love that line about libraries. Yeah, you got the manuals and the text right there. I found this line especially interesting from Pullman, right? Who is writing this fiction series that people have talked about for a long time as we are here. And that idea of the more imaginative readers are less successful at reading the alethiometer. I think he might have used similar language in northern lights and the golden compass as well we we discussed that because we're like lyra's quite imaginative but here it's meant more i i'm realizing now it's meant more in

terms of imagination not necessarily meaning like inquisitive or curious or being able to think of different things but too imaginative like in terms of that reading what you want to read in the text. other meanings, into other texts, into other symbols, and it's drawn on here. And we can see how that functions in the alethiometer, right? The connotation of the griffin in terms of mythology being associated with treasure, right? And that's symbolizing that. Symbolism is, of course, very much real in a thing. But what he's saying is that sometimes people might be imaginative and read into meanings that don't exist within the alethiometer or in language, in text, in general, and ascribe any sort of meaning that they want to a story and therefore falls very much victim to confirmation bias as opposed to

actually understanding what's truly and really on the page. I think you're absolutely right. That's something he's trying to convey. And hypothetically speaking, like, say there was a story or a book that came out that was kind of a traumatic idea, a controversial topic. And someone who had been through a similar trauma to that story, decided to attach themselves to it. Right? And they saw themselves in it because they wanted to, because of their loneliness, because of their internal problems, instead of fixing their internal problems.

I think that's a big thing that he hints on in this book. And I'm not saying it's something that he hints on in the future, but it's just something that I feel like he's playing with. And I think he's also obviously playing with that idea of the sheeple. You know what I mean? Like following the sheeple, following things and reading them and not actually like understanding their intention yeah what they're made for i think that some of the commentary maybe i'm just more uh sensitive to it now but i feel

like some of pullman's commentary is much more explicit in this book it's almost clear that you're like this was you philipman, not your characters. No, absolutely. There's a lot of that. And it does go on in the secret commonwealth. And that's unfortunately something that like, I'm torn on whether sometimes it's snarky and I like it, but sometimes it's annoying. And I'm like, okay, we get it. Yeah. Like, I feel like this is one of those lines that Philip Pullman wrote because he was kind of taking a jab at people maybe reading too much or something that not that intention is everything right but reading that something happened within his book series

that didn't yeah and you know ian from the dark material podcast said something really good when we discussed the secret commonwealth and some of the stuff from labelle sauvage and this passage actually i believe came up and it's kind of like that, that Randian, like, you know, the some of these very controversial authors, for example, that not to go Jordan Peterson, but, you know, that brand of just like, here's a dangerous thought. And I'm going to say it in an edgy way for people to mob onto it and not consider what's actually being said. And I think authority is one of the biggest things, obviously, here that latches on to that kind of transmission of information. And I think we see that in this book a lot. Yeah, definitely. We'll call it a couple moments where we're like, that was you, Philip Pullman, in different ways throughout this

series as we go. There's quite a few in these two chapters, but for now the professor goes on to say that there are six alethiometers made to their knowledge, the five that are known. One in Uppsala, one in Bologna, one in Paris, one in Geneva, and one in Oxford in the Bodleian Library. one in Paris, one in Geneva, and one in Oxford in the Bodleian Library. The Oxford Alethiometer has a story. When the CCD was collecting its power in the last 100 years, the prefect of the court tried to demand the surrender of the device, but the librarian refused.

The governing body of Oxford ordered him to comply, but instead the librarian hollowed out a book, placing the Alethiometer in a hollowed-out book of experimental theology, and they gave up their first search. The second time, they sent armed men to threaten the librarian, but he refused and was ordered to be shot in front of a firing squad. But the officer in charge suddenly meets the eyes of the librarian, turns out they're old college buddies, and then they go drinking together. Maybe it's the guy. And the alethiometer ends up staying in Oxford

except then the police officer dies of poison in Geneva. Later on, Coram gives a long, low whistle and asks well, who reads it now? And a small group of scholars has made it their study including a woman of

great gift in the study group. And they're like, I don't know, her name's Ralph. Ralph? Make progress? Roz? Rufus? It's Hannah Ralph. Okay, not yet, not yet.

Next chapter, next chapter. But, psst, it's Hannah Ralph. And I love that. I think that's such a fun nod to get you excited for the next chapter like wait a second scholars and people reading it a woman with a talent for it I love that the Oxford Alethiometer has a backstory and I wonder if this has any bearing on the final book in any way I'm like kind of following some of these little like mini stories being told and I wonder how they'll be played out again I'm not going to look for meaning this run through maybe when we come back in the commonwealth but

i think it's great that we're going to experience the story of a couple of these alethiometers like we're living the story of some of them hannah ralph right now has this bodleian alethiometer and later she ends up with the bologna alethiometer. It changes hands. So the sixth alethiometer as we know is the one in the story that we're invested in. This one. Yeah. Also I'm realizing something that holds these two chapters together

quite well is the anecdote of this man hollowing out a book and hiding the alethiometer in it and then Hannah Ralph passing a message along to Malcolm using the book as a cover so yeah cute things i didn't think about that i was thinking about the acorn but yeah that too the tradescraft oh yes yes i saw that note we'll get there later anyways uh all of this really drives home, though, all this discussion on how many alethiometers there are. It really makes you think of how swift

the Magisterium's crackdown on knowledge became in a relatively, I would say, short amount of time. There was some sort of religious and political radicalization that happened quite swiftly during Lyra's lifetime, which she was quite insulated from, it seems, because, I mean, also she was a child, but perhaps even because of her birth, it might have been something that catalyzed this radicalization

since something so important about her. And for so many of these alethiometers to have disappeared by the beginning of the series, where there are only two alethiometers in existence as far as we all know that's a really great thought because there's a couple of these that i don't think we know i mean and i'm thinking as far as no spoilers into the next book but i'm i'm guessing we're gonna understand where each infinity stone is at the last book, you know? Like where they all go. Well, and it's interesting you say that because Geneva is kind of the biggest symbolic mention of what you're describing here. So like in La Belle Sauvage, there's seven mentions of Geneva.

And in Northern Lights and Subtle Knife and Amber Spyglass, there's about 15 total. And even here, we get it with this story with the officer he lets the alethiometer stay in oxford which is huge because this is very much so a war on freedom and knowledge as we're seeing like this was a war fought for knowledge and that officer went home to geneva which by geneva we know that's where the magisterium kind of is. And by not retrieving that alethiometer, he chose the wrong side. So as we traverse through this series, he was probably poisoned by, you know, his people in Geneva for not carrying out this mission.

And Geneva and their world kind of almost serves as our Catholic world parallel to like this Vatican City, but with no pope anymore. We know their last pope died probably about 100 years ago. And we actually in Northern Lights here from the librarian. Pope John Calvin had moved the seat of the papacy to Geneva and set up the consistorial court of discipline. The church's power over every aspect of life had been absolute. The papacy itself had been abolished after Calvin's death, and a tangle of courts, colleges, and councils, known as the magisterium, grown up in its place. These agencies were not always united. Sometimes a bitter rivalry grew up between them. For a large part of the previous

century, the most powerful had been the college of Bishops, but in recent years, the consistorial court of discipline had taken its place as the most active and feared of all the church's bodies. St. Jerome's is where this Geneva Alethiometer is located in the story. references. St. Jerome himself of stride on, a Latin priest, theologian, and historian best known for translating the Bible into Latin, also unfortunately known for focusing his attention on how a woman devoted to Jesus should live her life. Glossing over that, just thought it was something fun we could all laugh about over dinner. Second nod that we get here is the church that was founded in St. Jerome's name, sorry, the college that was founded in St. Jerome's name. Sorry, the college that was founded in St. Jerome's name, the Pontifical Croatian College of St. Jerome. Pope Leo XIII founded this after a little bit of backstory of the land in 1901.

It's in Rome. It was intended to have basically a place to school South Slavic clerics back in the 15th century. Actually was a place for Croatian refugees for a time. But they've had 311 clerics move on to serve as leaders in the church. Now, in this world, in Lyra's story, in Malcolm's story, that would be the place St. Jerome's is where they breed assholes like Father Macphail or Gerard Bonneville or Father Pavel. Like, that's where they manufacture their evil scholars is St. Jerome's. That's Durmstrang. And it's like where the Ivy Leaguers that were in frats go on to be politicians, is what I'm saying. And it's likely right now that Father Pavel was probably learning to read the alethiometer maybe at St. Jerome's yeah i think this is all this is really important

to note in terms of you know as you were saying like in terms of that radicalization but that it was moved from the vatican city to maybe the day out of vatican city right um right and that they moved it to geneva yeah to geneva which of course in our real world is home to many international agencies where a lot of world power and those global decisions get made, which really I think hammers home the Magisterium's control over world power. And it's a big part of these books. A little bit. Just a bit.

Coram asks about the sixth alethiometer, but nobody knows its whereabouts. So they revisit that first alethiometer question instead. Professor Halgrimson admits that the leading scholar is away and more suited for this very complex question. I love that. It all drops. away and more suited for this very complex question. I love that. It all drops like it just turns out he doesn't know what he's doing.

He's like, I came to drink. I came to drink and gossip. Coram isn't too upset, though, and reveals to us that he didn't really need an answer. This is just a bigger test. And he's sort of way in the door. He turns the conversation to visitors at the university and then mentions Lord Asriel. Halgrimson, Coram, and Lofgren all give each other, like, I don't like gossip eyes, and then proceed to gossip

about Lord Asriel's little murder fiasco, Marissa Coulter, and then their love child, and everyone's super excited, and Coram's like, oh, I never actually gossip, I just overhear things, and everyone's like, oh, that's so funny! They're like, that's so funny, and they, like, are so excited

to have this giddy little inside joke, and they're always like, I overheard! I overheard! They're like, this is the greatest thing ever. It's like a Key and Peele sketch. Jesus. Also, like, I love that Cor They're like, this is the greatest thing ever. It's like a key and peel sketch. Jesus. Also, I love that Coram's like, oh yeah, boys, I'm one of the boys. I just overheard it. But then he's like, you fucking

idiots. You guys just are playing into his hand. You know what I mean? He's like, oh, you guys are just going to tell me everything? Even the one hard bit of information that he was like, oh, I don't know if I'm going to get this one. The guy's just like, well, I'm just going to tell you. It's brilliant.

He's like, I'm glad everyone drank all this Tokai. Yeah, really loosens the lips. He's like, I got a good drink out of it. And then everyone was drunk and told me everything ever. So Coram learns more gossip. He learns Asriel's child is custody of the court. The mother, not so much mommy material. And how Grimson actually brags he met the mother when she came to consult Lufgren.

She's a scholar. Did you know? Coram lets Lufgren preen because, you know, you know how men are. You gotta let them preen. Coram knows how men are. Coram is a man. Coram asks if Marisa really came to visit him like, oh, did she really bro? Did she come visit you? And they joke about Lofgren getting a little blushy about her. And Coram's like, I don't blame you. Great intelligence is highly attractive in a woman. And he tries to pry out what she wanted. And Hall Grimson is like, no, no, Lofgren wouldn't even tell me there's no way he's gonna tell you that uh intelligence in a woman is highly attractive line i'm like all right philip pullman thank you for telling me your type yeah right i'm out here like is that why the only

physical description that exists of dame hannah was from the chapter Lyra barely paid attention to her and you just describe her as a gray old lady bitch yeah he's like I'm into her mind I've been redeemed yeah pretty much with Jesper but another thing that we get insight into is the timing that's happening in this world in this book right for a couple of other moments right we talked about the timing of the alethiometers but also asriel credited marissa at the end of northern light slash golden compass to lyra as the great scholar who actually made the discovery about dust settling at the same time that a person's demon shape also settles that's when they all like go shroom and settle on you right so the discovery would actually have been rather I would say recent to the

main series during Lyra's lifetime also and so there's a part of me that kind of wonders like there's obviously sexism in lyra's world like that's not a question it's quite ingrained and especially within the academic circles for lyra to have just grown up her entire life and not realizing that there were any women scholars because it seems like they're not you know that that might speak more to jordan college than the entirety of like the, the academic world here. Though, of course, academic, like, sexism in academics is a persistent problem in our own world.

And I don't know, I guess, like, this world, they just don't have legal protections for gender or race. And they definitely seem to not for religion in all likelihood. And while the world is very much clearly patriarchal in the magisterium especially so which explains some of the moves that mrs coulter felt that she had to make hannah ralph's story and some of the other characters here and their like acceptance of like yeah i don't know there's this woman doing a lot of great study into it they seem to be like yeah women scholars are pretty normal like kind of makes me wonder is some of lyra's world actually a little less prohibitive

to women than it seemed in his dark materials and it was just because she had such a sheltered upbringing at jordan college that lyra grows up with i mean she does quite have a sense of internalized misogyny, right? She questions, she starts to question it by the end of the main series when she's like, encountering more women role models and seeing like Miriam alone and being like, I guess women can wear pants too, especially because she thought really poorly of Hannah Ralph upon first meeting her. I think it's Jordan specifically and her growing up there, especially because we know you know like

Sophia's is a lot different and it still is very much so separated by gender as we go forward in the plot like not just here like in the future I mean Sophia's is still the choice you know to go to as a female scholar and I think there still is that separation. And I think that we'll definitely talk a little bit more about Mary Malone and Coulter kind of juxtaposed against Hannah's story. And I'm really glad that we get the time to tell Hannah's story, because he did base her originally, very obviously, off of a local woman who let him borrow some books growing up. Very much so shows, but I'm glad that she was fleshed out. And she's not just some old lady scholar, you know, she has life adventures, and she might not be hanging out with the Mulefa or climbing trees. And she might not wear a Jackie O pillbox hat with a French veil on it, like Coulter, you know, with the power suit. But she lives a great life. And something very special about her character we're going to get into is that,

like, for working for Oakley Street, she just takes it at fact value that she knows she's working for greater things for society and freedom. And I think that there is definitely a possibility in the future books that still is to come for Lyra to kind of understand Dame Hannah's role in her life as an adult, and also in clearing the path for female scholars a little more.

Like I'd add to it that also Coulter in this situation, like you were saying that it's very important looking at like the timing of all this and, you know, Lyra's an infant right now, and this is all very recent and very fresh. And this visit that Coulter had at this college with these men that we're talking to, this is like a catalyst. This is like a huge incident in her life. This is likely the point that like past the point of no return when she learned what she learned here she chose this power over lyra yeah and that leads to the sort of quest that she has to as they say get custody over her and i'm gonna walk back some of what i said about academia and sexism obviously it is way more sexist in a lot of ways and maybe not that egalitarian because what you were saying about saint sophia's and jordan it sounds like they have colleges and universities still separate

separated by sex almost like siblings though like right the way that like dame hannah's invited and celebrated you know yeah but there's no like same place of education there's no being in the same room when some things happen and therefore you can't be separate and equal in that way. No, the education, the quality of education, you know.

But they're all still very in awe of smart women, especially, I guess, Lofgren, who decides to tell them, well, Mrs. Coulter came to ask me about the Ruzikov field and human consciousness. We have this line, Is it material, this consciousness we have? We can't weigh it or measure it.

Is it something spiritual, then? Once we use the word spiritual, we don't have to explain anymore because it belongs to the church, then, and no one can question it. Well, that's no good to a real investigator of nature it's quite a conundrum in terms of what they're allowed to study and not and nonsense thought but again i just keep thinking about the at fields in evangelion oh my god glossing over the at fields it does i mean this is kind of the age old question right for this whole story of what they're exploring when it comes to dust they can't

measure it they can't weigh it is it spiritual if it's spiritual then it belongs to the church and then no one can do anything about it uh and you know we talk about plato and other philosophers that speak of consciousness here and there, and they speak kind of, I don't know if I 100% agree with everything they all say, but they speak a little more in terms that I understand or terms that I personally agree with when it comes to consciousness and how our bodies are, how they exist. And I don't know that I've ever brought up Francis Crick before for good reasons, because I don't know that I've ever brought up Francis Crick before for good reasons because I don't really care about him but he was a molecular biologist biophysicist neuroscientist again

these are just buzzwords I'm telling you Eliana they're just made up words who won a Nobel Prize in 62 of medicine for discoveries concerning the molecular structure of nucleic acids and basically the significance for information transferring in living matter. His research was really huge for DNA in general, and he was interested in two fundamental unsolved problems of biology, how molecules make the transition from non-living to living, and how the brain makes a conscious mind. He discovered the flow of information through nucleic acids is irreversible and that the transition into proteins is not nothing you can do to stop or reverse it. And he later turned

to theoretical neurobiology on matter and human consciousness. He was a noted agnostic and he believed that Darwin's theory of evolution by natural selection and Mendel's genetics and knowledge were actually combined to the secret of life. He was a known sexual harasser of his undergrads also, and spoke about eugenics in correspondence with other different scholars and scientists through letter, never publicly, just through letter. So that's another good fact about him. Always want to bring the bad with the interesting, you know what I mean? In his book of molecules in men, clever, you know, got to give him negative, maybe a half a point for that. We don't know. Crick expressed his views on the relationship between science and religion.

There's a few different things he says in this book I want to talk about. One is that he suggested a computer could be programmed to have a soul. So when were we programmed with our souls? I mean, we're just meat computers. We are meat computers. I mean, Elon Musk wants that to happen. Me and you were talking about the, uh, he wants to do the scraling hole, you know, and then replace

it with the chip. He wants to do, like, the YA novel feed. Yeah, dude. I've seen this. Like, we're reading about it in these stories it's nuts we just read about it i mean john perry removed part of his skull to be smarter i'm like elon musk these were not blueprints these were warnings so crick thought that a soul entering the body and persisting after you die was nothing but an idea and And he's like, the mind is a product of physical brain

activity that evolved naturally. He said, you, your joys and your sorrows, your memories, your ambitions, your sense of identity and free will are no more than the behavior of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules. Now, what he says there may seem a little trolling, right? Like it seems a little harsh. But later, he said, less provocative, a person's mental activities are entirely due to the behavior of nerve cells, glial cells, atoms, ions, and molecules that make them up and influence them. So this is a really interesting straight science shot from this guy. It feels like to me, the philosophy that he went into was very, I don't know, I'm not a scientist again. It just feels like he's saying memories and dreams and ambitions aren't real. But that to me is what the consciousness is creating, right?

Like that's what my matter is doing is that stuff. That's the magical stuff in my opinion that's probably the the dust that's where the magic's happening like my beautiful brain i'm making out with fruit like will and lyra did uh that's the magic those are the good things i can do and the things i can create with my consciousness and my matter and i think that maybe crick just was looking at things too scientifically i don't know yeah there's uh no poetry to it and i think that comes back to that discussion right of faith versus evidence like obviously there's something there right like maybe it's not a soul you know maybe it's not maybe it's who knows what it is but that's there's something there and it's observable it can't you can't just be like oh all it is is

funny electricity and also you know that's why i'm always nice and complimentary in in some ways obviously i get frustrated with my electronics but you know one day they might end up with a soul and i'm not i'm trying to be on their good side i thank my personal google assistant every day every time i use her i say thank you very much you never know it could it could really just mean the difference thanks again i say please and thank you to like siri and my like voice command things they need to know that i care that look golden rule and i think that should come up in this story the golden rule you know treat others how you want to be treated and when the machines rise i'm just saying yeah they're going to remember.

You got to set a good pattern for humanity there. So Lofgren doesn't go into these steps. He explains in the most layman terms that Rostakov concluded consciousness is normal matter and a field of it pervades the universe, specifically in human beings. And how it works is being investigated around the world. But Hal Grimson, of course, adds where it's allowed to be investigated. So this question, right, of is it matter, is it not? This time, I am not a physicist, I am not a scientist. But going off of what Chloe was saying, this question and what we know of dust from how it's discussed in his dark materials seems, of course, very highly derived from dark matter.

But there's an aspect of this question of the Ruzakov particles. Dark matter is real. Ruzakov particles, probably not. Consciousness, real, right? But these all feel very inspired by the inquiries into also the nature of light questions of whether something is matter or energy and it's interesting that pullman's story settles on making making it matter right as opposed to energy which you know is a big part of the plot photons you know whereas we have things like in light is can act as both a particle and a wave because of photons versus the idea of consciousness is about what happens in those fields it's not that like

the synapses firing and energy somehow becomes consciousness though maybe part of it has to do with electricity being about electrons and therefore also matter a particle i don't know i'm not a scientist i'm not a scientist but i do think uh dark material podcast if i remember correctly in one of their earlier episodes does go a lot more in depth in the physics that likely inspired dust especially in terms of i think the dark matter um it's probably i don't know episodes the one of the first two or three chapters of northern lights or the golden compass and i would add that something you said also struck me that you know there's no poetry to how crick put it and that's another thing that humans crave our consciousness and matter craves

poetry so maybe it's just a human thing in the end maybe scientists do have it right and i don't have it right and i'm a silly poetic human but i think that is part of it too right that like we want to mean something we want our existence our consciousness that is some sort of living matter to mean something more than zeros and ones there's that and there's like so in margaret edwin's book series the mad adam trilogy there's like this uh new whatever race of kind of like a people's or something that's created uh and they're supposed to be engineered to be like simpler but pure in some ways easier than humans uh but no matter what how they engineered, they couldn't remove that they all loved to sing.

They weren't supposed to, but it's something kind of beautiful, that idea of that persistence of art, creation, poetry. I love these sad meatbags. Meat computers. Oh my god. Lofgren

comments that Coulter was very perceptive when she visited and that she lost interest. Oh, she was perceptive of his dick. Sorry. Oh my god. And lost interest in him. And she started to ask Hal Grimson about the alethiometer. You know, questions about her and

Lord Asriel's daughter. Specifically Lord Asriel's daughter's location because she was hidden by the court of law but that wasn't all apparently there's also a little bitty prophecy you guys might have heard about about mrs coulter's daughter from the witches they overheard it from her servants and not from her the only thing they knew was that the child was of some deep importance and the mother didn't know the prophecy either. God, can you imagine Mrs. Coulter waited like 11 to 12 years

to get an answer to this? That would drive me crazy. Yeah, I would absolutely jump off a cliff if that happened to me. Just knowing that there's some huge, very important thing. Yeah, pretty much. And I mean, yeah, it kind of drove her a little crazy.

You think? I don't know. I've seen the show and you saw Ruth Wilson screams. God. She's like, let's just chop up kids until I get what I want. Coram thanks everyone for their hospitality and of course for a look at the alethiometer, even though you helped me with

nothing, only with gossip, but it was actually pretty important. Anyways, Hogramson apologizes for not being able to show him more. The rain outside has stopped and it's chilly out. There's water dripping everywhere. Coram offers his demon a ride on his shoulders slash arms. But she

declines and then they return to the actual predicament. They are being followed and they have been for a week. Yes, they slow down when they near the boarding house that they've been renting, and they look out at the dark water. They're near the water's edge. Sophonax casually gets a look at the movement behind them and tells him,

now they swiftly go toward an alleyway between two buildings instead of heading to the house. He knows there's an exit in the alleyway, so they won't be trapped, and he can ambush their stalker. And he does, like we discussed, crouches in the corner, reaches up in his jacket, holding onto a heavy stick of lignum vitae, and Sophonax climbs up to his shoulder as flat as she can get, and they wait. So, fun fact, lignum vitae, which is also called wood of life, is in fact a wood from the Caribbean and South America and was a big export to Europe. But the lignum vitae is actually the traditional

wood that is used for the British police batons. It's also used in what are called heavy balls in cricket. Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah. Wow. I like how you know the heavy balls more than you know the police baton. I've how you know the heavy balls more than you know the police baton. I've had some experience with heavy balls, Eliana.

Coram thinks about the taboo of touching another man's heavy balls, heavy demon, I mean, and he thinks it isn't so big a deal when you're fighting for your life and the other option is death. He thinks of the times Sophia's had to cleanse herself after another demon's touch in a fight wow they're scrappers but the oncoming demon is a different type of demon than they've ever dealt with the taboo being moot to kind of provide some clarity on how the tartars are very

big into using like their wolverine demons to attack and i think it also depends on your morals and ethics as we learn in this book especially like gerard bonneville and the way he treats his demon and other demons and people is obviously immoral and bad and like not right so like your normal average person which we meet more good guys than bad guys in this story for the most part thankfully your moral person would not do it right but this is interesting that i really wanted to call it out because it is subtle but pullman's commenting on those things like we said and clarifying them like this isn't that spicy he's just clarifying sometimes the taboo doesn't matter for normal people. Sometimes it's okay. Pullman had a lot of things that he wanted to say.

He had a lot he wanted to get off his chest, this book. It's like you in our trailer where you came back to the subtle knife. Yes, redemption. Second chance at life. The silhouette of a creature with a small head and hulking shoulders of a hyena appears. She's looking straight at Coram and Sophonax. Then we have an action scene. Sophie and Coram ready themselves.

They equip weaponry and then the fight begins. The man has a gun and fires it a few times, grazing Coram's head, but he's got adrenaline so he'll live for now. The man gets him down and kicks Coram in the ribs hard but Coram stabs upward at him with his stick meanwhile Sophie and the hyena tumble at it for a while and Sophie's almost done but Coram breaks the hyena's leg and gets her free he just keeps wailing he's like I'm not gonna let up until he lets go of Sophie and then Sophie scratches up the man's arm slash hand and the hyena is over here howling in pain but as the man and the demon are running away Korm

passes out from blood loss coming to later honestly he's really happy that they he's really lucky they didn't come back around for him dude right I mean I'm surprised like that he like sways and he's like standing up and somehow he gets like they just like run away afraid of him and thank god

like he must have been out of bullets I don't know but thank god it's rough i mean he kicks him straight in the ribs it sounds awful i'm just glad sophanax is okay and quorum's okay and man and this is of course our first view of the haita right up close the hyena i feel like it deserves a demon corner so so we're going to break it down. Hyenas are commonly viewed as, well, it depends on what you're looking at. For the most part, in most cultures, like in Africa or Eurasia, it's viewed as frightening and worthy of contempt. Some of them actually associate them with witchcraft in traditional medicines. And in Western African tales, spotted hyenas are depicted as bad Muslims who challenge the local animism that exists among the Bang.

Tanzanian myths, witches use spotted hyenas as mounts. That's from the magicality of the hyena beliefs and practices in West and South Asia. And in some Middle Eastern folklore, hyenas are seen as a physical incarnation of a djinn of misfortune possession and disease which this hyena is a little creepy not as much now that we broke its leg i feel really bad for it actually but we'll get to that al-damiri wrote that striped hyenas were a vampiric creature that attacked people by night and sucked their blood out so some of this folklore might be intentionally echoed here i mean mean, hyenas are, they're described as dangerous, bloodthirsty scavengers. And this scene showcases it well

with Gerard Bonneville, whose identity is still unknown at this point, creepy and dark. And the mythological take on hyenas has some truth, the bloodthirstiness, but the scavenger attitude is also still really significant and i think we see that of hyenas real life hyenas that are timid in the face of predators or humans and they have these scavenging tendencies that come through definitely in this demon so it's agonizing when we later see this shady character who's new to us continuing to beat his demon and it's just something to think on. I mean, even looking at Pokemon, the man sends his hyena out to fight

with his, like he's hanging in the back with his gun, not doing anything. The nerve, like the nerve. The way Lyra treats Pan or how Malcolm cherishes Asta, it's so prominent against the connection or disconnection the villain and his demon have. Yeah, I never thought about the, he's hanging back while his

hyena has to go out and fight. And he's not really partaking in it. So, interesting. Also, I watched The Lion King. I know about hyenas. I was wondering if someone of us was going to make a reference to it.

And I was like, if anyone does it, it's her. I'll let her have it. Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate it. And I was like, if anyone does it, it's her. I'll let her have it. Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate it. So generous. No king, no king. Ha ha ha. When Koram wakes, which, again, very lucky,

Sophie informs him that he's lost a lot of blood. Thanks. She mentions that. Yeah, thanks, Sophie. She mentions that she would have been hurt badly if Koram hadn't intervened, and he wishes that he'd finished them. They end up speculating on the man's identity, if he's Muscovite or French. He scoops Sophonax up to head to the boarding house, and then she tenderly licks his wounds, and they clean up before they send a letter detailing as much of the events as they can to Lord Nugent. the letter, detailing as much of the events as they can to Lord Nugent. Vague phrases are used,

like the perceptive questions about human consciousness asked by the lady who is looking for her child. He mentions a friend in Trollisend, Bud Schlesinger, who will be contacting Lord Nugent about the witches and then ends with the last matter, that he was followed from novgorod and then attacked by a man with a hyena demon he then signs it cvt and addresses it to central london in a very ordinary envelope but turned all the way into code because spy shit burns the original and goes to bed yes and bud schlesinger is actually one of the winners or one of the names that was donated from the winner of the grenfell tower tragedy auctioning that was done uh there was basically an auction done because of the grenfell tower tragedy to name characters in the next book for pullman in this book bud schlesinger was fit in and uh the winner that got fit into the secret commonwealth was a pupil who passed away named Noor Huda El Wahabi she's featured in the secret commonwealth as a

character and actually I'm excited for you to get to that I think you'll like that but it was uh he actually in this article he talks about there's an interview I could post that he talks about how he didn't have any books coming up for a little bit like he wasn't ready to put the characters into the books he was writing he was writing some other stuff that had nothing to do with anything his dark materials or anything at all and he's like well i can't really put bud schlesinger in this book like it just doesn't work like just the way that the names fit he's like this is like a romantic book his name doesn't fit so he's like ah this is the one this is it but butch lozinger can have romance yeah and i think it's almost like it could be someone from the inn you know is the other thing i was thinking it feels very like the local guy

that shows up at the inn every day but i like this i like this So, yeah. Fun stuff. Fun stuff. Chapter five. That's what it brings us to. The Scholar. And that Scholar is Dr. Hannah Ralph, who's sitting up. Then she stretches painfully because she has been studying the alethiometer for hours since time with it was limited. She stretches and then amps herself up to keep going.

She's in the Boldlian Library in Oxford, and the alethiometer is amidst papers and books on her desk. To put it into perspective, the Boldlian Library has over 12 million items in it. It's huge. The library was originated in 1478, and they were given more than 281 manuscripts from Henry V. In 1550, it was purged by the Dean of Christ Church, and the room was eventually taken over by faculty of medicine until Thomas Bothley, diplomat in Elizabeth I's court, donated 2,500 plus books. The growth of the collection ebbed and waned throughout time, and it was renovated a few times to expand the capacity for books and oddities. We get that thing that you were discussing where Hannah was doing threefold work. The part she would be doing is why she is allowed to read it at all, which is investigating further into the meanings. She's a specialist on the hourglass symbol. And then between this part of this chapter and the

discussion on experimentation in the previous chapter regarding the field that studies the symbols of the alethiometer i kind of have like this hypothesis right of how i think maybe symbols and their like further deeper meanings are discovered which is like maybe scholars whose field of concentration is a specific symbol, they know what it means there, and they come up with hypotheses of other meanings, or maybe they do that concentration in meditation until an idea comes to them. And then they ask the alethiometer repeated questions

that they know have very specific answers. Like, different questions. Yeah, to further search that symbol yeah to make it see like does it come up with this does this come up in that answer at all like or different ways that it can manifest in that phrase in order to find out kind of like their focus like they each have a focus with it that is their goal and it covers more ground that way that makes sense like if several people cover it in completion right like yeah more people one thing each deeper and wider that's interesting yeah and then they publish that later in like a new edition

new edition of alethiometer symbols alethiometer today or tomorrow or next week oh a zine are we making a zine now wow settle down Reggie from rocket power no okay someone got me a zine

my friend actually has a pigeon zine a pigeon zine they're getting popular. Not pigeons, zines. They were really popular back then. They're picking up in popularity again right now, including digital ones with the pandemic. We're making round circle completion and you know,

the plague times and now. The end times. So, the rest of the work that Hannah Ralph does is with Oakley Street street a secret service she knows very little about but enough to understand kind of what they stand for she was recruited by a professor of byzantine history george papa dimitri who told her it was important work for freedom that was enough for her oakley street gave her questions to ask the alethiometer short

but varied but recently these messages were kind of borderline heresy. She'd received the messages from a carrier, but the acorn that she usually received had not arrived this week, and she's feeling pretty anxious about it. After three weeks of work, she comes up with boy, inn, and fish as the symbols. An experienced reader would probably have more detail than that, but that's it. That is what Hannah Ralph has for us. She takes out scratch paper,

three columns at the top with each symbol heading them. And she starts to think she doesn't know any boys. She leaves the in column blank. So she goes for the fish column and she just starts writing fish names. And she's like trout, this, that, herring,

salmon. She's going at it and i almost wondered if we were being fed any herring in here but i think if anything she was fed the herring on her little wild peacock chase yeah interesting i'll have to think about that more her demon helps her with the brainstorming because jesper is the only one that she could tell about Oakley Street. Of course. Yeah, duh. Jesper is you, Hannah. Yeah, they're like, if one of them forgot a fish,

then the other one would remember. But whatever. She can't figure out the symbolism, but has a faint memory of a river terrace with peacocks who snatch a beautiful sausage roll out of a patron's hand she asked the assistant at the staff desk do you know this inn and they remember it it's the trout inn at godstow ah labelle sausage roll out of our patron's hands alas this is a this is a labelle sausage roll for you patrons right here i would never take it out of your hands.

She thanks her, making a mental note to destroy the scratch paper she worked upon. The trainers had been serious about making sure you do not leave clues to your work. She works another half hour and returns the books in a lithiometer, planning to go to the trout tomorrow. to go to the trout tomorrow. It's Saturday midday the next day. Hannah is pumping up her bike tires and jetting out to the trout inn in God's Toe with Jesper riding on the handlebars. Jesper on the handlebars.

The air in his little ear hairs. I'm just, I'm astounded. Yes, you can just imagine he's like chilling. He's like, this is amazing. I'm going so fast. He's vibing like the the breeze is just hitting him he's probably like kind of like just grinning with his eyes closed leaning forward yeah exactly that face brushing in the wind yes you made a marmoset face eliana good job

thank you thank you also relatable is that hannah pumping her bike tires up before going anywhere that's me with my car. I pump my tires up whenever I drive, you know? Fascinating. Yeah, I think I have a rim leak, so it's life. Okay. Same one I've had on and off for like two years. I keep getting it like taped up

and then it just keeps busting open on a freaking pothole. My city's full of potholes. That makes sense. I thought you were just very diligent. No, I wasn't. Hanna orders a pale ale and a cheese sandwich, reading a book while ignoring the peacocks on the terrace.

She's learned her lesson. We get in the line here. It was a for fun story. A thriller with a mysterious death. Skin of the teeth escapes. And a haughty but beautiful heroine whose function was to fall in love with a saturnine but witty hero i love that he's just like joking about the basic uh the basic kind of

structure of a story right like of just like these gripping gripping tales and adventures and i almost wonder if it's gonna have any effect and we going to talk about that later without Eliana. But first, Hannah Ralph finishes her beer and her sandwich and a boy appears politely asking if he can bring her anything. And it's Malcolm. Of course, he's stocky, he's ginger, he's 11, and he's earnest and helpful, but she doesn't need anything else. Although this is her moment to strike like Farder Coram earlier had his moment. I guess he's not Farder Coram yet, but it's hard to call him anything else. She asks him if he knows anything about an acorn. Boy, does he. His face goes pale.

She tells him not to say anything, but that she's going to forget her book and he can bring it to her tomorrow to talk with the acorn. He regains his color agrees and she goes back to reading leaves a tip gathers her bag and accidentally leaves her book i bet he like feels like he's in trouble with a teacher you know what i mean like okay i'll i'll i'll bring it i'm sorry i'll bring it uh someone found out there's not just like in trouble in general because he's like someone died for this yeah that's pretty shitty too which we get into obviously the next day hannah ralph is restless

all morning she gardens she ends up making coffee and sitting to do a cross a newspaper crossword and then jesper says what a stupid, said her demon after five minutes. Words belong in context, not picked out like biological specimens. And what I'm reading here is, so Philip Pullman has a bone to pick because he's bad at crossword puzzles. I think you might be on to something, actually. It sounds like it's canon. I do want to add on a more personal note it kind of goes into our earlier discussion uh with what he was talking about above with words and with kind of the intention of words and people that choose to project into them and i feel like

this is again his commentary on authors and things that they write in the hollowness or the depth of them i think that's very interesting too. Yeah. I just want to also throw out, in defense of, I'm not great at crosswords, but my grandparents are super into them and good at them. They're great for memory and keeping your mind sharp as you get older. My grandparents

as well. My remaining grandparents love their little crosswords and I don't do much with those. I like a good Sudoku once in a while you know get me uh up and going well so hannah is upset at this she gives up because she's like fine screw crosswords and she throws it in the hearth and she remembers that she forgot her coffee scolding her demon for not reminding her of it which like if i was the demon i would just be like i I'm you.

You didn't remember it. How would I? I mean, Jesper does that. Jesper's like, well, obviously I forgot too. Yeah, so there. And Jesper straight up tells her to take a chill pill. Jesper's like, go prune your clematis. Go iron.

Go write letters. Bake a cake for this kid that's coming over. And she finds none of this helpful. She rebuts each option and her demon gives up she makes a toasted cheese sandwich and coffee that she actually remembers to drink midday the rain then starts to pour it is really coming down and she reads for an hour she's skeptical because this rain that malcolm's gonna show but jasper's like no he's too curious not to show up i just love this scene i really relate

to hannah ralph's anxiety of like what do we do and then be like we can't do anything because you're too anxious and overthinking every single activity but also just you know this is a jesper appreciation podcast now he's so funny everything about him so funny i'm glad he nags her and he's like sit down what are you doing chill out it's nice because i get that anxiety especially like when you have someone coming over to your house and you know you have an hour in whatever minutes and you like know the eta so you're like what do i do for the next hour and you're like just like moving around trying to neaten something but then you get distracted and you're like no i'm just gonna go do this now no i'm gonna sit here and i'm gonna make cookies no i going to go do this now. No, I'm going to sit here and I'm going to make cookies.

No, I'm going to go do this. I'm going to, and it's just like such a whirlwind. I get that. But it must be so much more stressful for her because they don't have like phones. She has no way to know like exactly what time is Malcolm going to come. Yeah. Or if he's going to come at all. Yeah.

Can't text. Well, I want to talk about Jasper because have you seen a marmoset, everyone? I tweeted about it today. So you should go figure it out and look. But they look so funny and kind of wise and also tiny, but not wise at all. When you really look at them, you're like, you're also you look so stupid, but so smart. And I love you. And they're a calatrichid, which in ancient Greek, calatrichs meant fur, beautiful

fur. They eat a diet that's very high in vegetation and insects, but their favorite snack is the high carb sap. And they're small and they're quick and they leap from treetop to treetop. And they're basically small long-tailed monkeys, almost like squirrels with long eyebrows and ear hair. And what's interesting is that there are three kind of types of marmosets in the Calithrix family that are closely related. And one of them is the tamarin monkey, Mrs. Coulter's demon, the golden tamarin. I thought that was an intentional choice by Pullman, absolutely, for these demons. We're totally going to get into again like i said comparing coulter

and hannah through this book they're meant to contrast each other in many ways which probably adds why we feel so comforted by hannah like kind of how we feel with mariam alone right she's that character in contrast of coulter the the female scholar character in contrast that doesn't go about using power to get her way in that manner and even lyra contrasts them right at different points in the story so absolutely and i just want to say golden tamarins also like like marmosets also super cute it's really it's so weird to think of mrs culture's demon is so mean and horrible because if you also have ever seen a golden tamarin monkey they're like one of my favorite

animals to watch like if I'm at a zoo and I just I told Chloe this I want a coat of golden tamarin monkeys but not like dead ones not like their fur just like live monkeys well to be fair and the show helped play on some of that sympathy but

I don't know I feel like it's not his fault that he's that way that's true we've seen the abuse she gives him uh to talk about gerard bonneville's abuse you know we'll definitely be talking about marisa when we get into that with gerard and his hyena so i mean it is marisa it's just just, I don't know. I just love Golden. I wanted to talk about Golden Tamarin. Monkeys. It's sad that she hates herself and her demon. Want to touch. Just first sighted Malcolm's demon rapidly changing when they spoke.

Tim has further proof of like his intelligence, but, and inquisitiveness, but speculation is uninterrupted because look malcolm did it he's here at the gate soon knocking on the door hannah invites him out of the rain and he tells her to her utter shock she's like what he took his boat to get here she wants to see this boat and he's like oh the guys in the boat yard let me leave it there so it wouldn't fill with water which is very kind i'm very happy to hear that because the rest of the story is not so kind to that boat he tells her the origin of this boat it's named labelle savage after his uncle's pub in richmond she asks if they had a nice sign on it and he says it was a beautiful lady who had done something brave and that is all he knows so what's being referenced here would be the bell savage inn which actually was a playhouse in Elizabethan England, as well as an inn.

And Malcolm's explanation may or may not be the stuff of legend, actually. Like the deed to the inn in 1453 names it as Savage's Inn, but also or like the bell on the hoop. The name may in fact be derived from someone's last name. It's currently theorized that it might be named for a William Savage. The history of the inn being named for a beautiful brave lady is something that actually etymologist Hinesley Wedgwood questions and pushes back on because he explains that the signs for a lot of the inns during this time period, it was in operation 1453 until 1873. But Elizabethan England would have often had pictures. They were meant for people to understand the signs,

the images on them, and the names by those images because literacy wasn't super widespread. They were meant to be seen by an unworded eye and also because maybe the words would have been hard to read or something and difficult. And the roots of the inn's name being then Belle Sauvage as opposed to Savage Belle or Belle Savage are then perhaps unlikely. But if we were going with Malcolm's explanation, the legend of the inn's name, taken from elizabethanera.org.uk says the belle savage inn was also referred to as la belle savage the beautiful savage believed to be named for after a noted savage beauty who was the rage in paris another possible origin of the name was that it was the name of the landlady is Isabella Savage, which was abbreviated as Bella Savage.

In, of course, the time, the name was changed to Belle and Savage and then Belle Savage. So a lot of different possibilities, but perhaps, I don't know, it's not as interesting. Maybe it is. Pullman obviously liked the more sensationalized, again, poetic version of the history more. But the inn, which closed in 1873, seems like another one of those things that didn't survive time in our world. But kind of like the prairie that we were discussing that the nuns are in, in the previous episode, is still very much in use in Malcolm's world. very much in use in Malcolm's world. I kind of like looking at it this way, that Pullman is kind of cherry-picking

things that didn't survive his history that he thought were interesting in the UK and just taking them. Just like, bloop! Or in different other countries. Just like, I want this for my story even though it didn't happen. That's a fun idea. I think that is something that he's doing. He's like, but what if?

It's his way of living through them. Talk about The Collectors. Get it? Because that's a book of living through them. Talk about the collectors. Get it? Because that's a book he wrote called The Collectors. It's a little mini story about Colter and some stuff. Anyways, Malcolm returned her book when he came here. It's a bit soggy, though. He returned it soggy.

She's like, please go dry that on the hearth. He compliments her tradecraft, the plan to meet with the book. That's what she calls it. She calls it tradecraft, the art of passing messages. And she asks him his name because she does not know his name. He tells her, Malcolm Polestead, and he asks how she knew he had the acorn. That's his question in return. She vaguely mentions an instrument saying no one knows how she found him.

She asks what he can tell her about the journey with the acorn, and he hands it to her. And he gives his own test. He wants to watch her unscrew it, because as we've discussed, it screws differently. And she demonstrates she can do it, so he gives her the message. She finds it clever that he was withholding the message, and then realizes, oh shit, this kid has the upper hand on me. He tells her the accompanying story of the acorn and Robert Luckhurst's fate. This makes her go pale, and she swears Malcolm to secrecy about the acorn telling him of her acorn exchange with Luckhurst. Although she also wasn't supposed to know about Luckhurst, it turns out. She's not supposed to know the person sending her messages she offers him some chocolatel and reads the

message while making it looking for some compromising bits in this message while she heats up and boils milk and she kind of feels like she has little choice but to trust this boy now yeah when she comes back Malcolm's like are you a you a scholar? And you know what? She is! At St. Sophia's, she describes herself as an historian of ideas. She asks Malcolm if he's made a copy of the message he gave her, and Malcolm's like, yes. And then asks him to destroy it, and he promises that he will. demons are perched on a case of ornaments and they're becoming fast friends. Jesper is explaining each ornament to Asta, who's a goldfinch. There's a Babylonian seal, a Roman coin, and the harlequin. And I just

continue to think that it's so funny, that Jesper's so funny. All of a sudden, Jesper's just pointing things out to Asta and giving a lecture on all of the different things and being a little professor and being like, just imagine the little monkey. Being a professor. His little face, his little whiskers.

Yeah, and he's like got one little paw behind him or actually, I guess, I don't know, a hand because he's a monkey. And then the other one is like. He's sitting up all super straight, but kind of like rocking back and forth about it. Really excited. I love it. And there's something that caught me here um so these kind of ornaments remind me of coulter's apartment late in northern lights when lyra first gets there which this scene is very much so kind of uh parallel to that scene right

like he's meeting his first scholar he is in in his scholars beautiful. Well, it's not as luxurious as Coulter's was, but in her snazzy den with these accessories, these ornaments. And he's not so fixed on those ornaments. But Lyra was when she went to Coulter's apartment. If you remember in Northern Lights. Charming pictures and gilt frames and antique looking glass. Fanciful sconces bearing ambaric lamps with frilled shades, and frills on the cushions, too, flowery valances over the curtain

rail, and a soft green leaf-patterned carpet underfoot, and every surface was covered, it seemed to Lyra's innocent eye, with pretty china boxes and shepherdesses and harlequins of porcelain. Mmm! Interesting.

So it just felt like kind of a little call to that apartment of all the things a scholar might have in their apartment. And I'm going to break these down because I think they're, I don't know, it's just something so interesting about the Babylonian seal, for example, because it's likely a seal from a carved cylinder from the fourth millennium BC, 4000 to 3001, or more around the beginning of the Bronze Age when written history was invented, though we know consciousness kind of predates that.

Roman coin, when the Roman Republic created their currency before the Julian calendar was invented, they were a little late to the game. This was 500 to 27 BC. It's likely they adopted the metal currency to emulate Greek culture because they had no real pressing economic need at the time. Monetary mediums were introduced as early as 7 BC in different cultures. Mesopotamia had ingots or bars of metal. The biggest change for Roman coin was when Julius Caesar put his face on the coin because first off, everyone was like, whoa, you can do that, right? Like what? You can just put his face on the coin because first off everyone was like whoa you can do that right like what you can just put your face on a coin and he that kind of became the new quo

the image started to take very special importance because after that during the empire the emperor embodied the state and its policies featuring a figure on a coin was legal in 44 BC and they would attempt to make the emperor appear kind of godlike on the coin through divinity attributes or highlighting a relationship between the emperor and a deity on the coin. So I'd be interested to know more about what's on this Roman coin. That was very interesting. And finally, like I mentioned, the harlequin. You might remember back in our second or third Northern Light chapter about the harlequin model that Mrs. Coulter had. Harlequins as comic servant characters of Italian theater

were such a common role. They would play lighthearted, astute servants who would act to thwart their master's plans and pursue their own love interest in life. So romantic hero and clever devil kind of character, like a Harlequin headpiece. You guys know what I'm talking about. The court jesters. They play the fool and pawn and then they take the field when no one's watching.

I related this to Lyra's relationship with Coulter, especially with the China that was all around them, but clearly it relates here to Malcolm, in this instance with Hannah, and how she feels like she's losing and struggling in this power dynamic. It's interesting in comparison to the last chapter when Coram Van Texel has the upper hand against the scholars he's with as well, even though he's just Egyptian of the Eastern Anglia, compared to these professors. Here, Malcolm of the lower class gained hand on Hannah Ralph, who goes on to be Dame Hannah Ralph, the scholar, from his wit. And she's very aware, and she ends up exploiting that to her own uses, much like Coram exploited the conversation to his own uses.

And like we discussed, they have even the same back and forth about the alethiometer soon. A lot of really good connections. And, you know, I'm sure Jesper included what face was on the Roman coin in his lecture. I wish he would have told me. I know, right? Malcolm has a ton of questions to ask Hannah. Who made the acorn? She's like, I don't know.

He's like, what's the instrument? Is it the alethiometer? To that, she's like, yes. And is that the old alethiometer? She says no, because as we all know, and as she explains, there are six known, though one is lost. They don't know how to make them anymore and Malcolm attempts to argue as Chloe did

that you know he could take a look at it and take it apart and figure it out but she tells him the metals are really rare and he leaves it at that he's like but we could make more she asks if he has plans for further education but he explains that it isn't likely he planned to get an apprenticeship or work

at the Trout maybe, and that Overcoat Elementary wasn't the place for that. He would like to go on to get further education, but he just doesn't think it's in the cards for him. Oh, Malcolm. You know, we've talked about how Pullman's kind of cherry-picking some ideas and things, and although he set this HDM world here in in the 80s in this world it feels a little closer to schools kind of in the 40s to 60s in terms of education in the uk it definitely feels

in terms of economy post-world war ii uh and overcoat prepared children for craftsmanship and clerking we're gonna find out more about as we keep going in this book children were educated there until 14 and then they were cut loose they could figure out their secondary or go on in our world in 1944 post world war ii uh 44 45 the education act of 44 better known as the butler act was gone, which was supposed to be answering a lot of burning education questions, appeasing both the church and state by giving some new options for school. Voluntary controlled school whose costs were paid by state and controlled locally taught educational but slightly religious syllabus, and half of the schools chose this status,

so they were immediately state-absorbed. When we get into the St. Alexander's League chapter next episode, we're going to have a lot to say about that because you can see where this influence comes in. Voluntary-aided schools held influence over admission policies, staffing, curriculum, and were preferred by Roman Catholics and Anglican schools. Their costs were met by state, but the capital costs were only 50% funded. It went up in 59 to 75% funded, and now they're currently 90% funded. Lastly were direct grant schools, former independent schools, town grammar schools, often in northern England, who accepted a state grant to provide free education to many students

while charging some. These schools were the most independent, and it seems like Malcolm's school might be a little mix of that and the last. The Butler Act raised the school leaving age up to 15 with the hopes to raise it to 16, which didn't happen until the 70s. The post-war budget basically recommended they attend school till 18, but it wasn't mandatory because of that spending. They adopted the tripartite model, which basically offered the state-funded secondary education. And there were three types of school,

secondary technical or secondary modern. Secondary modern and grammar school, though, were the more commonly maintained. And the biggest concern they had was basically losing unskilled labor and like skilled labor at the same time for the people that decided to keep going to school. I mean, it's a big drop in the labor force. You know, you're not going to have as many people to push the tractor, do this, do that and pay them dirt prices for it. Children were no longer leaving school at 14. It was hard to off balance. So the investment of skilled labor eventually paid off. But when you look at children from Overcoat, they would leave at 14. Children like Malcolm, they would have been pushed out of this system. They would have been told that

supporting the home economy is more important for the family had opportunity not risen, which we'll of course talk about. We're going to get into the politics, like I said in the next episode of La Belle Sauvage, of Overcoat in much greater detail because church and state do begin to battle within it similar to some of what the Butler Act did struggle with. A lot of interesting history that plays into what's going on here with Malcolm's world as well. Asta flies to Mal's ear whispering something

and Hannah pretends not to see it as he shakes his head in response. He asks Hannah about the Roussacaw field and she tells what little she knows of it. She explains she doesn't always know the things that she examines or asks the lithiometer. And then Malcolm quotes some of the message back at her that concerned reading the instrument. When we try measuring one way, our substance evades it and seems to prefer another. When we try a different way, we have no more success. He says that it kind of sounds like

the uncertainty principle and hannah's like very surprised and impressed at malcolm's knowledge again and he explains well you know what i just like meet a lot of scholars at the trout and i literally overhear them as opposed to people joking about overhearing things and had learned that the uncertainty principle is you know some things about a particle but you can't know everything and then he asked the big one what's dust poor hannah oh my god she's like this kid is putting me through the ringer yeah they should be seen and not heard she i feel for all of you who are homeschooling i want you to know that if you're homeschooling or if your kids have been at home for all this time, if I'm offering you any solace, if Aliana's offering you solace, you deserve it.

You deserve the world. You're doing great. Kids, man. So she tells him. I also really appreciate that one person who said that I guess they listen to us in the car. And what is it that their kid, like the how dare he? How dare you? Or something. Yeah their kid like that how dare he how dare you or something how yeah something like that and they learned that from us i hope your kids are growing up with us i'm just kidding

i'm sorry i hope not so hannah tells malcolm what public knowledge she can tell him about dust it's an elementary particle the magisterium disapproves of, and they say it's sinful. Malcolm's like, how can knowing something be sinful? Ding, ding, ding. Loaded question, Malcolm. She asks if he talks to people at school about these kind of things, and he explains, no, none of them would understand, and the trout's visitors are usually just interesting. Hannah comments, well, this is a useful overhearing, and she kind of starts to think about something. A thought begins to form in her mind, but Malcolm interrupts that thought with his chatter, his persistent chatter on particles, and then he starts to ask her a question, but she finishes it instead and says, I know, how am I going to contact the other people if Robert Luckhurst is dead?

How am I going to contact the other people if Robert Luckhurst is dead? She has one idea, which we explore in Chapter 6 next episode, and Malcolm asks, how were you recruited? She explains she was recruited to help people, and Malcolm comes to the correct conclusion that the CCD happens to be this secret society's enemy. Hannah reiterates, this is all secret knowledge, Malcolm. You need to stay out of it. You shouldn't know any of this. I shouldn't be visiting with you. But at the same time, she can't

help but learn more about the CCD men that he mentioned visited the inn. And he offers that they were looking for Lord Chancellor Nugent. Yes, Lord Chancellor Nugent, whose name always just reminds me of Snickers bars. And I know it's different, but reading it just makes reminds me of snickers bars and i know it's

different but reading it just makes me think of nougat i know happy peanut song song happy peanut song over chocolate colored covered waterfalls and a caramel that commercial had a big impact on me it's malcolm's turn to be surprised. Hannah asks him about the baby that everyone at the Trout is talking about. Which, you know, I always got the impression from his dark materials that Lyra's existence and living at Jordan was, like, a big secret. But apparently not. Apparently everyone just fucking knows where Lyra is all the fucking time. Okay?

Because everyone's just spilling the beans. Just like Malcolm here. spilling the beans just like Malcolm here spilling the beans and then he asks Hannah casually like tell me about sanctuary and if she thinks that you know are they looking for sanctuary for baby Lyra and turns out Jordan is the only college that still really offers it mostly for political reasons through scholastic sanctuary for example she sends says that in order to activate it, it has to be claimed in Latin to the master of the college, which I guess really hammers home the Scholastic Sanctuary and therefore class and academic stuff behind it. Anyway, Hannah doesn't know if they're seeking sanctuary, though, for Lyra,

but she decides to ignore her bad feelings about using malcolm and asks if they can speak again another day they plot for her to lend him books like a library and to come back to discuss them and then he like loves the idea asta is in squirrel form clapping her paws together he's just like super jazzed i did want to comment i know you loved the asta when she claps her paws together like a squirrel form Asta you thought it was so cute but wait for it I'm about to blow your mind Asta here is a squirrel with a nut the acorn oh my god yes it's all so cute it's all so great oh she's I love this too it's like beautiful they just began a spy network with fiction books

like whenever I slip in your DMs wait I have one more thing that's gonna blow your mind not only is Asta with an acorn and clapping super cute she's now a secret squirrel oh my god do you remember secret squirrel? of course I remember secret squirrel Eliana

god what podcast do remember Secret Squirrel? Of course I remember Secret Squirrel, Eliana. God. What podcast do you think this is? I bet Philip Pullman saw Secret Squirrel. Secret Squirrel. They choose the round of books. It's a mystery thriller and a history piece, and

while he looks at the books, she remembers growing up having an elderly woman in her village do the same thing for her. Because there's no public library in Oxford. They only have commercial subscription libraries. This is so fucked up. This makes me so mad. Like, especially considering that Oxford isn't, like, a small rural area.

It's just surrounded by universities and a bunch of, like, what, private libraries? And then, as you pointed out the commercial subscription library and i want to talk a little bit about this because it's just so bizarre to me that oxford doesn't have one uh at whatever time period this is maybe maybe it makes sense in world and i don't understand it but in 1850 uh it established free public libraries in britain it seems, with county libraries becoming more of a thing and more widely established in 1888. And it just makes me so mad because I cannot imagine my childhood without public libraries, which I also understand is quite

privileged of me and having all of that access to books freely because I think back and I actually first read His Dark Materials because I was borrowing it from my public library. I remember picking it out from a little cart where it was on a list and books separated for summer reading as I was either entering middle school or 8th grade

I don't remember anymore because I'm ancient now and either way, it was like this little cart for summer summer reading and the golden compass title like really worked on me you know even though philip holman hates it it was very intriguing to me i was like cool cool cool cool it was interesting and i thought it was so good that i continued to borrow the rest of the series after from the public library and it just makes me so sad and i think a lot of it really plays into the discussion you were having uh you know regarding the different classes and who who gets to be educated

right and who doesn't when it comes to those ages and uh that was a big point of discussion in the history of public libraries because people were like sort of worried they were like oh it's going to give rise to unhealthy social agitation like that's in quotes and sure eventually yeah parliament was like you know we we should just pass it because it can provide maybe people can self-improve and it'll be good for all the classes to achieve greater levels of education and can hopefully, you know, lower crime rates. Because turns out, you know, what if like investing in like opportunity helps lower crime because people are less incentivized to do it? You know, whatever. Anyways.

Yeah. And it's unfair. Public libraries. It is a serious display of classism. And we're going to see it more because at this moment, there's something really interesting that happens in the story. Hannah sees herself in this kid, but at the same time, she feels guilty because she feels like she's making a spy out of him, that she's exploiting this intelligence she sees in him and this bravery. I mean, she thinks he can't volunteer for this, even though he would have if he could. She tempted him into it.

The word tempted is used and it brings up a very interesting seduction or temptation. It gives me a bunch of other characters, a reminder of some characters that we've met in these stories. From Northern Lights. Hello, says the beautiful lady. What's your name? Tony. Where do you live, Tony? Clarice Walk.

What's in that pie? Beefsteak. Do you like chocolatel? Yeah. As it happens, I've got more chocolatel than I can drink myself. Will you come and help me drink it? He's lost already. He was lost the moment his slow-witted demon hopped out of the

monkey's hand. Now, we know Hannah Ralph's not evil. In fact, we know her from the main series, as Eliana mentioned earlier. In fact, Lyra in the last book expresses her sorrow in being blinded by Mrs. Coulter over Dame Hannah at the very end of Amber Spyglass. This time it was a smaller party, just herself and the master and Dame Hannah Ralph, the head of St. Sophia's, one of the women's colleges. Dame Hannah had been at that first dinner too, and if Lyra was surprised to see her here now, she greeted her politely and found her memory was at fault. For this, Dame Hannah was much cleverer, much more interesting, and kindlier by far than the dim, frumpy person she remembered so mrs coulter's

effect quite obviously uh dazzled and as we know all that glitters is not gold hannah actually makes a comment in this scene while feeling guilty about tempting malcolm about how he's so young that he's not even conscious of the chocolatel on his lip as i mentioned with tony before the chocolatel on his lip. As I mentioned with Tony before, the chocolatel being used as a temptation is not new. In this scene, it very much so even reminds me of the knowledge, the fruit of the garden, the fruit Mary Malone tells Lyra and Will about in a different way. And Hannah absolutely is playing serpent in this narrative

because she's tempting Malcolm with knowledge, with books that he would never have the access to because of his class and income. He would never have the access to because of his class and income. He would never have the opportunity to be a scholar or to read these books like some of the more financially well-off children have if he didn't accept the chocolatel and stay with this continued friendship. No, Hannah Ralph's not evil. Again, she's a good lady in a conflicted situation, but this friendship came at the price of exploiting him and turning him into a child spy and soldier,

even though necessity kind of born it. Hannah works for a secret order, Oakley Street, a scholar. These are parallel to Mary's role in the original trilogy and also contrast Coulter's role. This chapter has a power structure that is very clearly defined between Hannah and the ever curious Malcolm. It reminds me of what Mary Malone learns from the cave. Find the girl and boy, waste no more time,

you must play the serpent. Malcolm has a huge role in this book, and he never would have been into any of it had he not met Hannah Ralph. Yeah, that's a great point. And that's the case for Lyra too, right? And it raises questions of like, what is necessity? Especially, you know, as Malcolm tucks his books away and he leaves, as Hannah draws the curtains and puts her head into her hands and is like She's like, was I wrong? And Jasper says, yes. And Hannah tries to explain she had no choice. She would have felt feeble, though, if she hadn't done it. And then they have a discussion. It shouldn't be about how we feel. Guilty. Feeble.

No, and it isn't. It's about wrong and less wrong. Bad and less bad. This is about as good a cover as anyone could find, even at that. I know, she said. All the same. Tough, he said. That was very beautiful.

I think that was good. Yeah, I felt the small monkey and I felt like you were speaking through your whiskers. Like, thank you. I like I could be a little professor no i think it felt like um like when i try to do wyman manderley in the song of ice and fire stuff and i try to speak with my jowls moving you know like i try to have jowls i try to like just like imagine that my face is like twice as big as it is so i think you did good like it felt like the fur was sprouting off of your ears thank you thank you i appreciate it all right eliana i'm gonna have to take us into our dusty

discussion so if you've made it this far thanks for listening if you have not read the secret commonwealth tune out now come back later if you have read the secret commonwealth i am gonna monologue for just a minute on a few ruminations that I noticed and picked up in this chapter. Eliana's going to tune out. She'll be back. And then we'll say goodbye till next time.

I'm going to go to the bathroom. Good luck, Eliana. Previously with the Her Dark Material cast and Dark Material podcast, we discussed a few things on the Secret Commonwealth. If you haven't checked that episode out, it was out for patrons and then became a public episodes that they could share it with their followers as well. We have it up on our stream. However, we discussed Malcolm's fate and we did kind of come up with some ideas that maybe sort of Malcolm might die. The poem about the lovers that's presented in the secret commonwealth

feels a little foreshadowy, right? Just a little bit. And there were a few things in this chapter that holy shit, you all, holy shit, knocked me out. For one, it was a for fun story, a thriller with a mysterious death, checkmark, skin of the teeth escapes, checkmark, and a haughty but beautiful heroine whose function was to fall in love with a saturnine but witty hero. And of course, one of the things that we were going to do today was cover the next chapter, but it did get a little lengthy. So in the next chapter, Glazing Sprigs, I do want to bring up that there is a part that says, the ending was less violent and awful than the poor man who'd lost the acorn, and Malcolm can't stop thinking of that. He wishes he and Asta could have helped the man, but the CCD would have been watching them the entire time.

He then thinks, the loneliness of the man's death is what upsets Malcolm the most. At this point, I think that it is written into a corner. I feel like the heroic sacrifice might be the only route for this hero, and I think there could be a little foreshadowing hanging out there. When we were earlier comparing Coulter and Hannah with their ornaments, it also serves to remember the shepherdess on Coulter's shelf. If Pullman did have symbolic intention with the shepherdess, again, there's a story from Hans Christian Andersen in 1845 on the shepherdess and the chimney sweep,

where a China shepherdess and China chimney sweep are threatened by a carved mahogany satyr who wants to take the shepherdess as his wife this could be something at play in the folklore we've been increasingly seeing with of course the commonwealth and malcolm and lyra's relationship and to close out this discussion i do want to mention in our dusty discussion what eliana and I went back and forth on back and forth on about the similarities imagination finds. And what she doesn't know is anything about the secret Commonwealth because she's literally five pages in. Please shame her.

Please. She deserves to be shamed. And I say that with all of the love in my heart. Let's get her moving on it, everyone. However, I digress. The passage was, what matters is not the similarities your imagination finds, but the similarities that are implicit in the image, and they are not necessarily the same. I've noticed the more imaginative readers are often less successful. Their minds leap to what they think is here rather than waiting with patience. This is the problem we see with Lyra in The Secret Commonwealth that jumped out at me in this reread. And Pan leaves to go find her imagination. And I think specifically with what Eliana mentioned about authorial intent and symbolism and looking for something while projecting yourself into it comes up with the books that Lyra is reading. She is very traumatically upset. She's dealt with so much in her life, you know, right? The whole Metatron thing, the prophecy thing, the whole like severing from the demon, losing the love of your life.

It's kind of a big deal. So with Lyra in the secret commonwealth, she's clinging to these books that are written by these men that just have these hollow philosophies and ideas that Pan tells her, this isn't you. Why are you believing in this trash and this drivel? And I think it's set up really well in this passage with what the professors are discussing with Coram Van Texel. Well, I'll bring Eliana back in just a moment. Thanks so much for listening. And I can't wait until we can get to the secret commonwealth with Eliana these dusty

discussions are gonna get a little longer if we let her back in hello Eliana and welcome back to a non-dusty discussion or kind of dusty semi-dusty wow so clean I feel so so unburdened by matter. Consciousness. Well, we discussed a lot without you, but we cannot wait until you are ready to catch up with us. Yes, one day, one day. One day. In the meantime, we'll be preparing for our next episode,

which again will be chapter 678. We will be covering Glazing Sprigs, Too Soon, and The League of Alexandria, which I'm excited about that chapter. It is very short, but it is killer. I am excited. I think those will be fun. Sets up a lot of interesting stuff and the chapters after that will be fun too.

Oh, we have a whole, we haven't even gotten to the flood flood. The flood flood. That's true. Well, keep up with this. If we haven't even gotten to the flood flood the flood flood that's true well keep up with this if you haven't already please check us out and subscribe to us on a platform that works for you whether it's itunes google play stitcher podbean you name it we're probably on it someone's put us there and where you can always access us, right? You can find us on Patreon at patreon.com slash girlsgonecanon, C-A-N-O-N. And if you are one of our patrons, you probably actually got this episode far in advance.

Yes. As always, I have been one of your hosts, Chloe. And I have been another one of your hosts, Eliana. Thanks for listening. Goodbye.