Girls Gone Canon Cast - The Book of Dust Episode 8 - La Belle Sauvage Chapters 21-22 featuring Warren Dudson (The Hedge Knight)

Episode Date: April 23, 2021

Our resident lore master Warren aka The Hedge Knight helps us navigate the murky waters of myths, lore, legends, and faerie tales as they surface in these two chapters. Malcolm and Alice stumble on lands that feel distant from their own despite being so near.   Follow Warren's twitter: https://twitter.com/DudsonWarren   CHAPTER 21 - THE ENCHANTED ISLAND   CHAPTER 22 - RESIN   ---   Eliana's twitter: https://twitter.com/arhythmetric Eliana's reddit account: https://www.reddit.com/user/glass_table_girl Eliana's blog: https://themanyfacedblog.wordpress.com/ Chloe's twitter: https://twitter.com/liesandarbor Chloe's blog: www.liesandarborgold.com Intro by Alexander Nakarada

Hello everyone and welcome to Girls Gone Canon, The Book of Dust, Episode 8. We are reading La Belle Sauvage, chapters 21 through 22, and today we have our very special guest. But before then, I am one of your hosts, Eliana. And I am another one of your hosts, Chloe. And yes, I am so excited to have our friend Warren the Hedge Knight over on Twitter if you're active on there with us today. Warren, say hello introduce yourself tell us a bit about you you know let everyone know why you're here today why did we pick you why we call you up and say we gotta have you he knows why he knows no i'm still

wondering why in fairness toby i genuinely thought you guys were talking about Arya up in Reap I had my nose on Arya all week and then I was oh no it's Lyra my name's Warren I'm known as Dev Hedge Knight on Twitter

I thought it would be cool to take a moniker of us or Duncan the Tall given how I'm so small and I'm thinking now possibly graduating to the

Sworn Sword maybe it's been a little while I've been to Hedge Knight so maybe I'll graduate and change myself to the Sworn Sword who knows I've found a H&M so maybe I'll graduate and change myself to the Swans or who knows I found a love

for his dark materials novels alongside you guys so I leapt into them as you guys started covering them really loved the books obviously the show as well which is

I think the guys behind the HDM show are really showing how to adapt the book series for TV doing a great job. And it's just, I suppose it's been a fun read through the books, the initial series and now this one.

Well, you know, Warren, you were my buddy when Eliana had not read this book yet. When we were still waiting for her to get up here, I was, I know you and I were messaging about this book yet when we were still waiting for her to get up here i was i know you and i were messaging about this book a lot you and our friend lo as well from the discord were kind of my my rocks during that time until eliana got a little caught up and now we can have you here and all of us can discuss the story which i'm excited about and i'm especially excited for some of the lore that i know you're going to bring to this episode because you are kind of our folklore master. Yeah, that's a big reason why, you know, I thought that these would be perfect for you to come on. Since you're sort of some of my gateway into that folklore and legends that I'm less familiar with.

And that's like these chapters are where that really, I mean, obviously they're there in some of the other parts of these stories, but I think that they come to the forefront much more obviously in these two chapters. That's really nice of you both to say so. I'm very privileged to say that. No, just in my headphones. Expand my headphones. They're as little as my head grows. well before we jump into our episode today with you warren we have a little bit of housekeeping up top first things first we will be releasing a patreon special episode this month for his dark materials fans on patreon.com slash girls gone canon for people in the stranger tier and above that's our five dollar and above tier every, there's a special episode for those patrons. Every other month, it's His Dark Materials. So we are on that right now. Next month, we'll have a Song of Ice and Fire episode.

And Eliana, tell them what they're gonna win with this episode. So this upcoming episode for this month, it is maybe you will win a bottle because we're gonna be covering the His Dark Materials television

series bottle episode that was lost at sea. They threw that glass bottle away and who knows where it is now. Lost. The heart of the ocean. The heart of the ocean. It's been 84 years. Yes, I'm excited. We are doing a lot of research on the episode that was unfortunately lost due to covid but kind of redistributed through the season and we're going to talk about some of the

the scenes that were lost the actors involved and i mean they got five hours in that that's your your sneak peek preview they got five hours in on this episode of Asriel's big day out. So I'm excited to talk about that one and kind of piece together the scenes. Yeah, so we'll be trying to figure out what some of the ideas might have been behind that, that unfortunately was lost due to the pandemic. And I mean, these don't really exist in the books it was something that was made for television purely but is of course inspired by the materials in the book sort of ideas of those moments that were intimated and what they could have been exploring yes we have some other things too on our patreon such as as, for example, our Discord, which is available for patrons $10 and above, Thunder tier and above.

And once a month, we'll do our brunch slash happy hour where we all get on and maybe people will do presentations or maybe we'll play some fun games. Depends on the month, but April's Discord brunch slash happy hour has already passed, so we will be announcing the one for me soon. Yes, absolutely, and if you're listening to this as it releases, it is probably April 23rd, 2021. We will not have an

episode next week. We will not have an episode for April 30th release. We push this one up for a week for a quick week off. Moms go to spring break. Yes. Moms need spring break. Yep.

Well, there have been some serious April showers, right? That has led to this flood and we're sailing away. April showers bring May flowers and in May you will get more episodes what the fuck is wrong with you I love you so much that needs to be the tagline for this whole episode thank you Eliana I really appreciate you as a human being

some days well before we jump into chapter 21 the enchanted island in chapter 22 resin we do need to remind you of our spoiler warning because sometimes we are not great at reminding you so we're gonna do better we have vowed in 2021 to be better so here's our spoiler warning here's resolution we're doing the best we can all right spoiler warning here's what we're going to talk about the original trilogy northern lights golden compass the subtle knife the amber spyglass we're going to talk about some of the outer works very lightly like lyra's oxford or of course the

recently released serpentine you name it those outer novellas and of course this is kind of a reread of this book we are going to reference the rest of the book we are at chapters 21 to 22 we don't have a lot left i think three chapters after this so buckle up uh we will talk about the rest of the book and some of some of the things going on there but we will be saving a little bit of it for later we'll be hinted the secret commonwealth we will try not to make as many disgusting noises this episode and we will save it for our dust discussion at the end of the episode if you have not read the secret commonwealth headphones off because we will have a little space a dusty space reserved to speak about it freely yes and along with all that you all know, these works have become much more expanded,

right? Some of you might have come here because you heard about, again, the series from the show, and we will be discussing the show to an extent, and every now and then referencing then as we discuss elements within this book. But for the most part, as we've discussed, the show has been fairly faithful, and especially much of the larger arcs that are in the original trilogy. So hopefully that's nothing too surprising to anyone. Yes.

Well, we've landed at the Enchanted Island, Chapter 21. Malcolm and Alice have escaped with Lyra from the other Priory, the bad priory, and he throws her in. The priest had wanted to take Lyra, but the nuns protected her. It seemed purposeful, and they start to speculate about what they wanted with Lyra. Malcolm worries that they wanted something worse with Lyra, and Alice wishes they could go rescue the other children. Malcolm's disappointed for giving away too much info with the Boatwright crew and Andrew in the first place, but Alice reminds him they didn't really have a choice and she comforts him. Is it just me or did the rescue of Laura seem too easy?

It did seem a little fast. Like it was all wrapped up fairly quickly within one chapter and the pace at which everything happens like within this portion of the book. And the pace at which everything happens, like, within this portion of the book, it's a lot of, like, bam, bam, bam. We're at, like, all these different places, like, very quickly. And that time to me does feel a little jumbled, but I do like these two chapters, so. Yeah, and I don't know, I also think it's purposeful, right? Because Malcolm went in expecting a huge amount of trouble, but when he went to look for Lyra, the nun actually hit her. So like the nun really kind of put a fork in that plan and was like, oh, wait, it's not that hard to find Lyra because she's just in the one next door and she's not being taken away after all? Question mark.

Oh, no. And I think it's a reveal thing, right? Because I think he wants it to feel easy in the face of gerard bone b coming back in this chapter uh at the end of the next chapter you know it kind of they're like oh no he's dead how do i grapple with being a murderer but all of a sudden our heroes are no longer unsafe you know it's uh the element of surprise coming back yeah that makes a lot of sense well Malcolm is nearing exhaustion so they land on a wooded hilltop it's a small island lit by the moon

its air is different warm and fragrant they steer into the beach landing and Malcolm immediately falls asleep ah so now it's a book about Malcolm falling asleep Lyra's also asleep a lot in this book too but it's like less significant because she's a baby

and that's just hopefully what they do when malcolm wakes he feels like he's in a different season because there are sparkling leaves and blossoms and none of it makes any sense not in the middle of this flood so he shields his face from the brilliance of the light his aura that spangled ring begins to twist out of his eye and he greets it like an old friend watching the spangle drift until he can shake it away and see what's happening amidst the bird song of sparrows and blackbirds and larks and i again i love these chapters i love this island um i think these two chapters are the most interesting part of the flood sequence to me and i think are some of my favorite parts of this book it shows how each of these islands really do feel like they are really different places right it feels like malcolm sailing through an archipelago as opposed to navigating like the flood in his town and

this sort of way that the islands kind of or maybe they're technically mountains, right? But that become islands in the flood. That transformation makes sense in places like for the legends and folklore in Britain, and in Wales, where fairy lands are actually thought of to probably be on islands, right? They're thought of as separate countries, far from people's eye to see and we encounter at least two of those in these like sequences that we're going to cover today and also i like how pullman plays on the reader's sensibilities by warning like oh things are kind of weird here right because we're all conditioned enough to be like wary of anything that looks and smells too sweet we're just like oh that's probably a trap if it's too good to be true. So we'll see that unfold here.

And regarding fairies, which we'll probably discuss a lot more this episode, Robert Kirk seems to think that for some reason, men are more inclined to have the second sight because women just don't have the disposition for it. And I'm just like, okay. Interesting. So I don't know, just because it's the spangled ring, but Alice can see all this shit, so whatever.

Interesting. It's an't know, like, just because it's the spangled ring, but like Alice can see all this shit. So whatever. Interesting. Yeah. It's an interesting take, Robert Kurt. I'll see you in hell. I love this. I do love the magic. It's a very magical change of scenery. Definitely puts you on edge of what's going on. And especially because as soon as they land, he falls asleep. and especially because as soon as they land, he falls asleep. What kind of fairy tale doesn't start with, you know, oh, the people of the kingdom are put to sleep magically. So very interesting to bring this whole fairy tale around. And as Malcolm finally comes to from his little quick magic nap, he sees Alice talking to a woman about babies and he smells something warm like toast or coffee.

He also hears Lyra gurgling nonsense but then he thinks maybe it's water lapping and not lyra and i almost didn't catch this but i wonder if he hears the sound of the waterfall that they go down later i didn't consider it but that would connect these two places right because we are going to talk about how this feels like a separate world uh so it makes me think that these two places are part of this gap in another world. Yeah. That's interesting also thinking about them as different worlds. But yes, that could be the waterfall just as a warning out of sight.

Yeah. Alice calls for Richard to come get coffee as he wakes and informs richard that ellie lyra is fine and richard malcolm has been asleep for hours dick oh how dare you leave dick orchard out of this they landed at this woman's pace her home and malcolm fell asleep in la belle sauvage like straight up he did not leave the boat. They crash land and he just sleeps. He exits groggily and follows Sandra up the slope where Ellie

and Pan are laying in the grass surrounded by blue butterflies hovering prettily. Malcolm thinks one must be the woman's demon and surveys her. Golden hair, light green dress, pretty, must be in her twenties. This was the funny- I almost peed myself laughing at this line, because obviously we know from our instincts

that the fairy queen is probably not in her 20s, right? She's like a bajillion years old. But it's so funny, because it's like when kids are young and they guess your age, and you know, you could be like in your mid-20s, or in your 30s or 40s and they'll be like oh you're probably 63 huh like they have no no idea about time or what time means or they say you're 15 when you're 60 as well which is bless them kind of nice that's the favorite kid

yeah yeah but it's like this fairy's in her 20s damn actually when you see that it's kind of reminiscent of the witches right but they feel but they feel old whereas this woman feels more youthful not not youthful like just the way that she carries herself has a lot less gravitas and more mischief mischievous than the witches they're very serious those witches yeah very life and death with them and for her it's very uh well trickery as we're going to get into right interesting that um i was reading the internet this week it's this really cool thing me nephews told me about oh and all the kids apparently are i'd like to read it sometimes. And I found this. The fairies are supernatural beings.

They can be best described by the Greek word daemon. That's spelled D-A-I-M-O-N, which means spirit. They're not divinity, god or goddess, in the usual sense of the word. Yet they're not mere mortal either. So often it's easier to classify them as minor divinity. I find the use of the Greek word daemon interesting in the context of this series, where demons, the emoines, are so prominent, representing an otherworldly side to a person as their soul.

I'm really excited to talk more about this kind of mythos with you this episode, and Eliana brought up a really interesting point about how this fairy seems related to the witches. You know, fairies are actually sometimes spoken of depending on which angle you're hearing it from, but like in the Leviathan by Hobbes or witches familiar in fairy and early modern England, they're spoken of in similar manner to witches. And in the late 16th century, most Christianity had demonized pretty much any sort of magic and they kind of flatlined fairies demons witches and superstition and illusion all as one so just consolidated it categorically as well as recognizing different euphemisms as the devil so like robin goodfellow was they called him the devil uh so i find it really interesting in these stories like

for example hobbes called fairies servants of Beelzebub the prince of demons and Emma Wilby says that witch trials even featured the fairy queen and Satan at certain points so in that whole aspect of demons and daemon I also think there's so much folkloric intention here with familiars right for witches and fairies fairies also are seen to have familiars which is kind of what we see with her blue butterflies here with familiars right for witches and fairies fairies also are seen to have familiars which is kind of what we see with her blue butterflies here with this fairy yeah yeah especially because for them you can't really tell that's interesting i think that might be a big part of it too right that uh because christianity in the late 16th century damning

these people is like you know different and othered and kind of one magic and ruining their entire world and you know trying to force them to change and demolish their land and demolish their culture i think that's a big point too of like possibly uh he's making here i don't know maybe it's a point he's making in that like the fairies the witches all of them are kind of run out of living here yeah it really feels that way yeah absolutely she was kneeling on the grass in front of laura tickling her or letting the petals of some sort of blossom fall over her face or leaning down to let the child play with a long necklace she wore but Laura never managed

to grasp it her hands went right through it as if it wasn't there Alice introduces him as Richard and the woman offers him more coffee she gets that coffee

from a copper pot that hung over a fire that crackled in a ring of stones I almost missed this one but there you have it it's a fairy ring of stones I I almost missed this one, but there you have it. It's a fairy ring of stones. I did a little research

into this as well. A fairy wroth is a ring in the shape of a mound. Most commonly found in grassy, hilly areas. Archaeologists, boring, say these mounds are remnants of ancient buildings, but locals say the mounds were built by fairies. I found a Facebook group called

Save Irish Fairy Force, a heritage conservation community. They have over 26,000 followers dedicated to raising awareness and protecting these monuments. Huh. Did you join? Not yet. But I know some people who are members. You're not going to help save the Irish Fairy Forest? Interesting, Warren.

That will be remembered. Yeah, that will be remembered. fairy forts interesting warren yeah we'll be remembering that's gonna be remembered it's more like that it's a facebook thing really than a fairy fork do you think that the fairy community isn't gonna listen to this warren i don't know i don't know i'm just saying you're backing me into a corner well this is your chance to step up for the fairy forks but yeah i think that's that's that's great what you brought up about like that the ring and it's also in the shape of a mound right because i mean this island maybe if you're thinking in a logical sense right granted it's probably just magical but like also

this island is theoretically probably the top of a mound or a hill yeah and there's even something what did i read there's something about so the copper pot that has the coffee that's being cooked in this ring if a human steps into the fairy ring you'll be compelled to join the fairies in their wild dancing which would occur for just a few minutes yep and that would last for seven years or more sometimes so like it's basically the human can only be rescued by someone outside of the ring who can grab hold of his or her coattails. So it's interesting that he does drink the coffee, right, from the fairy ring. The fairy ring had the coffee within it.

I find that particularly interesting, just offbeat a touch. I don't know if you guys are familiar with the childish game kind of Ring-a-Ring-a-Rosie. Oh yes. Which would be someone in the middle and everyone kind of running around saying Ring-a-Ring-a-Rosie. That just rang with me as Chloe was talking and it kind of feels like it fits.

Yeah. Interesting. Especially Ring-a-Ring-a-Rosie. Yeah. No secret Commonwealth spoilers. Check out the discussion, but interesting. Roses, of course. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Gotcha. What do you got, Eliana?

Well, I've got this fairy lady, right? She's pretty. She's kind and gentle. And that makes Malcolm feel a little uneasy around her. He asks if she lives here, and she responds, only when it suits her, not all the time. And he tells her, he lives in Oxford, and notes that she is listening intently, though not to his words.

The woman asks what they're doing with the baby, Ellie, and they explain that they're returning her to her father in london which one says that's a pretty long way and speaking again of those mounds and and suddenly this space right where the supernatural are coming forward it feels like theories are sometimes described as being subterranean folk meaning which implies that they live underground but they aren't necessarily so it feels, has the water just sort of pushed

all the subterranean folk above ground? Besides, you know, creating this, like, strange flood liminal space. Yeah, that's really, that's really interesting. I think that actually is a great point because they are in hiding. That's the other thing. It's the secret commonwealth, right?

Like, no one knows about it this is a new thing it's an old new a new old thing no yep it's a new thing for these people to see in their lifetime though during this natural disaster which makes you wonder during the previous floods for example like the the or the next floods is that also when some of the secret commonwealth came to surface yeah perhaps well this lady's pretty strange she's just taken this baby and she's stroking lyra's hair all the while and pandas turned into a butterfly playing with the other butterflies struggling to keep up without flying too far from lyra but then he does it hurts he falls onto the grass but then turns into a mouse and runs over to cling to lyra's neck the woman offers them to rest as long as they like and

alice just comes comes back from some breakfast buffet somewhere with a plate and fried eggs and malcolm eats quickly while the woman picks lyra up holding her high in the air and laughing uh-oh there are some perils here of eating fairy food and it is commented on later it's interesting because i don't think it's come back to yet but partaking in fairy food is kind of a big deal in the fairy world there's two differences there's two distinctions in the fairy world if you eat their food in the fairy world it's usually perilous like can kill you if you eat their food in the human world recur refusing their food so like literally saying no i don't want food from you if a fairy offers it to you can be perilous because then they incur their

wrath and they're insulted so it's a really interesting part of a lot of different fairy folk work with those two things in mind and they accepted fairy food in the fairy world to our knowledge these characters aren't dead right now um or are they we don't know but it does remind me of this song a fairy ballad if you will the ballad of child ro. And what you've not to do is this. Bite no bit and drink no drop, however hungry or thirsty you be. Drink a drop or bite a bit while in Elfland you be, and never

will you see the Middle Earth again. Hmm. Interesting. It just feels like there's no winning, so you can't, so don't eat the food, but also you can't not eat the food yes so many promises that make you swear and swear can you eat the food but it's perspective can you vomit it perspective i think like because what world are they in that's my question whose

world are they in so you have to be paying attention to where you are. Which is hard when you just wander into a fairy world. Yeah, that's true. Check out them road signs. Yeah. The road signs are the little mounds. Are there rings or are there not rings? You could identify them better if you joined this Facebook group. Maybe buy yourself some Goodwill, Warren,

if you help protect the fairy courts. Goodwill Perry? Oh.ry does rhyme with fairy um it does it's not a connection you guys not a connection to act like it was maybe a little weak there are people who would act like that were well i think one of the most famous touch points right that people have when they think of don't eat the food in a certain world right is of course the myth of persephone and i just wanted to bring that up because you know persephone eats that world in the underworld and you're not supposed to do that because then you have to go back and go to the underworld and

that just is interesting given what happens with you know lyra's life where she goes to the underworld yeah i think we're definitely going to bring up the underworld a little more this episode because it does feel uh especially as we get into resident chapter 22 there's some huge underworld vibes this is uh just like in the andrew spyglass, this is positioned pretty much the same position of the story, you know, 75% of the way through as we're getting kind of to the climaxes. And I'm excited to see some more of these parallels as the book winds down, too. Pan turns into a pure white butterfly now, and he's dancing amidst the blue butterflies. Malcolm thinks, suppose her demon is the whole cloud of butterflies, not just one of them. That made

him shiver. There's a strong sense of otherworldliness, a feeling of tearing the oak, that kind of stuff, to how Pullman's written this chapter. I'm also wondering, is it possible that Diana's demons are testing, trying to see if Pan can separate from Lyra?

What do you think? That's an interesting thought. I definitely agree that it does feel reminiscent of Tirnanog which is that other world where the Twa'dadan who are mythical, enormous,

very tall, again, taller than Chloe I'm going to make that joke every time race of people live and I'm going to make that joke every time. Race of people live. And I just want to make a reminder out there for fairy ladies especially. Tell your lovers that they won't be able to return home if you take them home to your mom and dad over in Ternanog. Because it's really discourteous when they come back in hundreds of years. And they're like, oh shit, everyone that I knew and loved is dead. Dead.

And that they can't get off their horse like just rude but what you were saying about the the demons testing if pan and lyra are able to separate is i think interesting and trying to see how magical they are but it is also interesting that early on the children just maybe this is just in general right that babies and children even from an early age kind of push that connection and that playfulness. are our dianya's soul is also interesting because there's something interesting about like can the fairy soul be split up into multiple parts or even perhaps the idea that multiple souls can be one being and also i mean butterflies in many different cultures right in folklore in uh japan but also for uh roman like ancient roman people see the butterfly as representing the soul so that would make sense for him to be like i don't know maybe it's like a

bazillion souls that's really interesting because of like transformation and souls and the idea of the secret commonwealth here of like these people having to live in secret and in hiding and hide their ways of magic from people like the magisterium who would probably utilize this magic as we've seen and as we see happen later for bad right um and there's even there's something very seductive, about the butterflies coaxing and trying to get Panda to separate, almost. It makes me wonder, like, there's a lot of, and we're going to talk about changelings, obviously, and a lot of other lore, but child sacrifice and sacrifice is a huge part of fairy folklore. And it makes me even wonder if there's magic there, if Dianya knows something more magical about dust and children you know hmm maybe who knows i'm just thinking of like child sacrifice being young and beautiful forever

you know the good stuff that is the good stuff drinking children's blood and looking great killing it collagen fillers everywhere i don't like the taste of blood saturday afternoon in fairyland everyone thinks it's beautiful and mystical but you know all that glitter everywhere it's the disco what a hero well alice gives malcolm some bread and it is some of the softest bread that he has ever had that's pointed out and he asks the woman's name and how far they are from London

we've just been saying her name already because we assume you've read this chapter her name is Diana and she says that they are miles and miles away and now I don't know the road's gone so like we can't do it by that she says by water she's's like, meh. But by air, she says they're exactly halfway point between Oxford and London.

Malcolm's like, wow, amazing. You don't really seem like someone who would own a gyrocopter and Zeppelin. And I'm like, rude, Malcolm. Don't just judge by her looks, whether or not she would have a cool steampunk vehicle. But she also laughs at this, tosses lyra up and asks like who needs such a thing and calls them very noisy i'm just like oh my god lol malcolm like i mean anyway it's great because it's like lol malcolm she's implying she flies motherfucker herself yeah he's so he is very earth-minded yes i love uh to come back to this fairy bread which

sounds delicious like nothing is better than a beautiful fresh loaf of bread but fairy bread is very significant the fairies love to bake bread and their bread is always the freshest and lasts the longest uh there are many stories where fairy bread lasts like two whole weeks in comparison to the normal one week of bread and i think that's very interesting that again he ate fairy bread uh their pride and joy and usually it's a it's in a lot of different stories as like the subject of like a human stealing fairy bread but fairies also like to steal human bread for some reason so even though they have this coffee bread sometimes they're like i gotta get my mouth on a loaf of wonder bread to know not sure uh but very interesting i thought that was interesting

and fun for pullman to play on those and we do get this introduction to dianya i i really like the kind of the elements in the etymology of naming her it's very obvious that there are a few different influences on her name so titania is one right the queen of the fairies in a midnight summer's dream from shakespeare she's married to king oberon and sets the main act of the play in motion she has a changeling child king oberon wants it for himself and later punishes her using a potion that makes her fall in love with the first creature she lays her eyes on when she wakes. Interesting.

I wonder, that feels significant because later, Malcolm wakes up on this fairy island and has his, or on the second. Malcolm wakes up on the second kind of fairy island and has that little sexual awakening with Alice, right? So, maybe there's some magic going on here. Or maybe he's had some potion. Maybe that's his problem problem it would explain a lot she's also named after diana uh the goddess of hunting mythology and later the moon and chastity her greek equivalent is artemis right so diana is the roman mythos and artemis is the greek equivalent associated with fertility and nature and infertility as a fertility deity she's invoked by women to aid

conception and delivery which is really significantly shown with dianya and stealing lyra and the whole nipple suckage we're going to get into for sure and of course one of the biggest influences which i think is really interesting and i know know Warren has a little bit to talk on later about is Edmund Spencer's Fairy Queen, Floriana. Edmund Spencer's Fairy Queen has a passage that appears in this book that we'll talk about. But interestingly, the Fairy Queen does not appear in the poem. There are several books in this poem and she does not appear, which I think is such a boss move, first of all. Second of all, she's supposed to represent Elizabeth. It's allegorical, right? In his letter of the authors, he states that the entire poem is cloudily enwrapped and first of all second of all she's supposed to represent elizabeth uh it's allegorical right in his letter of the authors he states that the entire poem is cloudily enwrapped in allegory

and that the aim of publishing this book was to fashion a gentleman or noble person in virtuous and gentle discipline uh and there's definitely some political commentary there's commentary on virtue with arthurian knights in the mythical fairyland and on religion. It was written during Reformation, a time of big controversy, right? Politically, religiously. And after taking the throne following the death of her half-sister Mary, Elizabeth changes the official religion of the nation to Protestantism. So the whole plot of book one is basically the persecution of Protestantism, including that controversy of the reform. And in books one and five, even, Gloriana has godly English knights destroy Catholic continental power. So there's a lot politically happening, and it does memorialize, celebrate, and somewhat critique the Tudors, suggesting their lineage could be connected to King Arthur during it. Yeah, that's really interesting, all the ways that Dianya's name is influenced

and draws from all these different influences and, of course, how it weaves in, you know, you're pointing out with Gloriana, some of that political aspect because, in many ways, right, these stories are weaving the magical, the supernatural, right,

and how that intersects with this political world yeah who would have thought that in order to write you needed to read so much sounds fake sounds fake sounds like a lie there's just not enough

time you know there's so many books and I don't have enough time we'll try it who's gonna take care of your cats if you're reading chloe i don't know malcolm is pretty confused about what she means if she travels by air without zeppelin and she calls him an earth-minded boy which he doesn't understand and she explains it as literal minded he asks is that a bad thing? And she says it's fine if he wants to be a mechanic. He takes that positively but Alice watches frowning

and narrow-eyed from afar. Yeah, the description of Malcolm as earth-minded is interesting considering that Lyra is described by Ma Costa as witch oil and fire so that sort of elemental descriptor is coming in. I also like that sort of elemental descriptors coming in i also like

that alice is looking out for malcolm she's like i don't know if i like that she said that i don't know i do really appreciate that because she's straight up as saying he's simple you know like she's straight up as like oh you're it's like bless your heart in the south you know like she's straight up as like bless your heart malcolm polstead you're just stupid uh and alice is like hey wait a second. I don't trust this woman. I do not trust her. You don't get to make fun of Malcolm.

That's my job. You know? Yeah. It just goes right over his head, which kind of proves the point. He's very earth minded. Yeah. Exactly. He's happy with it.

You know, when I think that it does go back to a lot of what we've seen of, you know, his future and him not really having anything planned for it that he was kind of thinking maybe he'd just work at the trout or become a mechanic or a shop guy like mr tap house and uh he's content with that but as we see he gets roped into this magical world and that's not enough for him apparently huh i mean he kind of knows just as a kind of spin-off i think it's there's an element of maybe where Malcolm comes from, that he doesn't have that ambition beyond the kind of earth minded, as Dianya puts it, careers that, you know, that that's the world that he inhabits. Absolutely. Now he's inhabiting a different world.

Yeah. New worlds are opening up to him. Exactly. And new worlds await. That was the tagline for the second season. Whoa. But, yeah, I mean, I think Malcolm knows a little. He's like a little bit like that was strange. That was kind of a dig. But it's a part of his strength, right, that he chooses to take it rather as a compliment and see it as his own strength, doesn't let it bog him down.

see it as his own strength doesn't let it bog him down and we can tell that he kind of knows it's an insult because at the end he's like well good fucking luck with that box day in you because you're not a mechanic yes it is such a boss move it's perfect he knows he does know yeah and obviously we know that it's good that he is earth minded and that he's mechanical like this because we also see that open up the acorn for him in the beginning of this story and that acorn is like the little Pandora's acorn you know opening up all this craziness and unleashing it into the world as he

gets roped into it and later with the box it's the same thing he gets it from that so you know it's not always bad Dianya it's not always bad are you suggesting by any chance chloe that the acorn is it's the acorn from which this great oak tree has grown oh you know i might i i wasn't but you know that's now that you say it i wish i was i wish i was well malcolm checks the canoe because he's like wow i've had like 80 naps during this.

And he goes over, checks it out. It's bobbing in the water. And finally, he decides it's time to open the heavy canvas rucksack with the brass buckles. I didn't really realize it till now, but his waiting to open it until the right time kind of reminds me of Will with his letters from his dad. Oh, Will. till the right time kind of reminds me of will with his letters from his dad oh well yeah with his envelope of letters and how uh it was his kind of like thing to protect in the journey for a little bit until he was ready to read them and i see that as a parallel in some ways obviously not quite as emotionally and within the bag are a handful of items including a sweater of navy

blue wool which he was pretty bummed because they could have used this right when they were cold it smells like fuel oil and smoke leaf he has five faded cardboard folders that are bent and torn full of paper with difficult to read spidery writing on it and code and french arguments about mathematics with a building plan attached and the french writing accompanies it okay there's malcolm's airplane coming in handy yeah yeah sorting through it absolutely the last folder that he sorts through is in english and it has an analysis of the russikov field by bone v within it asta and malcolm are like yo what we knew he knew about it they're triumphant right they're like we knew he knew about the russica field he was just lying to us back at lord murder's house they questioned whether he was an english man or a french man also because he has all these folders of french text that it looks like he wrote in and

i'm just saying i'm redeemed his name is french eliana i knew you were on the redemption ad i just knew it. You just need to tell Michael Sheen, the audiobook narrator, because it's Bonville Dame. I know. It's Bonville. I refuse to pronounce it as Bonville. It's just more funny for me to do it as Bonville

because Chloe hates it therefore I like it. It's so freeing. Just try it once. But also could he not tell by his accent does he just have a very very good english accent no that was the thing like he just sounded like a normal englishman and it's interesting because this does kind of make them as they read it think he must have been a spy because of all the information he has so i think that's also part of it like maybe he was french but since he was a spy and he was doing a lot of english work or because he was working in english uh land and doing you know trying to get scientific jobs there to continue his crazy ass studies i don't know it just seems

that he had to be uh able to pull it off yeah well you're not the only one feeling triumphant right now chloe because malcolm malcolm's feeling pretty triumphant because he's like yes i knew that bonneville knew about the ruseca field was lying oh oh really malcolm was he lying but unfortunately everything else in the rest of the folder kind of goes over his head with all the equations and words. So Malcolm's like, I'm just going to save this for later. There is a chunk of the text. I find this really interesting.

This is from some of the papers. Since the discovery of the Russikov field and the shocking but incontestable revelation, consciousness can no longer be regarded exclusively as a function of the human brain. The search for a particle associated with the field has been energetically pursued by a number of researchers and institutions without, so far, any indication of success. He goes on to say, in this paper, I propose a methodology. Dum, dum, dum. That's all we get, is that he proposes a methodology we don't get to read the methodology but i would like to know what that methodology is because in episode seven we were talking about

maybe he knows a little bit too much about the suffering and anguish of children's souls that's really interesting chloe do you think he you think he had any involvement with or came into contact with Mrs. Coulter while conducting them studies? Is it confirmed why he went to prison? Might he have sexually assaulted or raped Mrs. Coulter? Does he truly believe Laura is his child? These are some big questions. A lot of questions. Yeah. These are big questions. I, as I've said before, I still think Marissa made some discoveries on her own, such as about the moment that dust settles on people, coinciding with the time that a child's demon settles. But, I mean, I don't know if he did assault, like, I don't know. Personally, I do think that he did assault mrs coulter or attempted to or perhaps

harassed her i don't know that he really thinks lyra is his child just based on the way that he sort of dances around and plays with malcolm's um the answers that he gives malcolm but for me i just find it really problematic to think that marisa might have made that claim up and that's why i think that it really happened especially because of the way that she reacts when malcolm brings up his name it's it's almost it's very uncomfortable right and i think that if she if the story is saying that she just had made up this claim right and just furthering that narrative um that claim i find that problematic in that it furthers the narrative that women just make up sexual assault claims against men especially because ultimately it doesn't harm men often get away unscathed right like look at our Supreme Court justices here in the United States and what ultimately

happens is that the women face a lot of backlash for coming forward and we know that Marisa longs to be seen as exuding strength within the Magisterium, longs to be seen as just as competent as the men, just as powerful as them. And for her to come forward with something like that would obviously tarnish that image as well as the idea of that double edge, that double standard when it comes to purity. as the idea of that double edge, that double standard when it comes to purity. So if she were not assaulted or raped, I think that that's really harmful, especially because, I mean, this is a time when, like nowadays, when this book is coming out, when a lot of women are finally finding the voice to discuss the abuse of power or harassment and sexual assault in spaces like academia and research. And also, for the sake of many things, I just think, you know, it makes, it's better for the story in all of these ways, right?

That Marisa were subjected to this, though I think like the many other ways that assault, sexual assault is handled within these stories i think that it shares that it isn't handled with as much deft as it could be i do so when i first read it i didn't read it in that manner now i'm reread i can see where those elements might be present that it could have been that assault um i don't i don't know that i think it is solely because we don't have a time span, right? Like, we don't know the timeline of when this trial really actually took place. It seems to have been in more recent-ish history, like in the last few years that it must have happened. But it's interesting that Marisa would have had then, if that is, like, if it was an assault or some sort of case that got taken,

it interests me that she would have had that another case with Asriel that came up, you know, with her husband and everything. So I'm curious of how he would plan on having those plots separate and mean something. And if we'll get any reveal as time goes forward, I'm guessing we'll have to get more of a reveal of what it means but i do kind of err on the side now after rereading this of i think that maybe they were even doing research together to come back to what you were hearkening to eliana that i do think marisa made many discoveries on her own including the when dust settles on people and i wonder if it wasn't something else like not assault but maybe got him locked up uh for stealing the research or something like she was i don't know what but obviously we don't have an answer like this isn't something answered in the next book i'm guessing it's going to be answered in the third book but i just wonder if they were research partners maybe he did try to

assault her and maybe maybe he didn't yeah but and also that that's a great her and maybe he didn't. Yeah. But. And also, that's a great point. I kind of forgot a little bit about how that was all framed earlier on. Assault doesn't necessarily have to have meant sexual assault. It could have just been like normal assault. Yeah. Or it could have been like, as you said, any number of things. I mean, he seems like a very unprofessional man.

And it's not like Pullman's track record for assaulting female characters in his Book of Dust series is good. No spoilers for the future, I'm just saying. He has a track record of maybe not making the best choices on that. So it wouldn't surprise me if he was like like yeah she was assaulted by him uh not not surprising right let's be real what's another one add it to the pile pullman but uh i just like i don't know i hope it's not is really my my thought process about it and i do think that it is intentionally misdirection for what we won't know but i i'm wondering if the research is involved because as we see he intentionally trails off here in this passage and doesn't tell us what bone v's methodology was earlier no one knows why bone v was actually in jail every single person says

something different so i think it's intentional misdirection and i think it's going to come to light that maybe like maybe in the future there is a character connected to Bone V that we'll talk about in the discussion. But maybe that character will reveal the truth like no that's not what happened. Don't you know what happened? It's this. Can I just chime in with something based on what you're saying there? I do wonder earlier in the story when we we meet Bonville at the Trout, everyone seems to give him a wide berth,

yet Malcolm Disgrace has been very friendly and pleasant. And I wonder what is the reason why people are giving him a wide berth. Are they aware of something to do with his past or something he might have done? I do think it's something that pullman is alluding to i'm not sure it's something that he will reveal he has a habit of kind of doing this he alludes to things and sticks with them while they serve his story and then just once they've served their purpose he tends to kind of leave them behind yeah yeah um i'm particularly thinking about the egyptian storyline in lauren compass which until we get back to the bell of savage he really doesn't

revisit that in the original trilogy which it kind of feels unsatisfying to me but that's a digression um and i just kind of feel that um there's there is something going on there whether it's true or not or the extent of it we may find out in the third book and the exact truth of that is still couched because the

individual Chloe the clandestinically refers to is maybe his judgement might be a little bit biased the clandestinically refers to is maybe his judgment might be a little bit biased. Do you know what I mean? Apologies. Digression over. That's my little

poppin's worth. That's fine. No, I think that's honestly, I think that's a good point. I do think we're going to get some sort of reveal though because he intentionally trails off in this passage so we have to come back to this passage and what the russoff field uh i mean what it means i i don't maybe it'll be lyra eventually someday that reads it you know it might not be malcolm that reads this it might not be hannah ralph as he intends that reads this and makes

sense of it but i do think we have to come back to this Russakoff field essay in the last book of dust absolutely agree with regards to Russakoff theory absolutely but maybe some of the stuff that's going around it he mightn't necessarily flesh that out satisfactorily it wouldn't surprise me if he didn't let's put it that way but it wouldn't make the books any less

to me either I still thoroughly enjoy him and what he is doing with them but you can see in things like this just some little gaps where you kind of go oh I wish I wish I knew the truth. He doesn't quite go for it. He just bangles it and says

nah. Well Malcolm returns to these boulders and he's wondering if they're all in a code and if oakley street or hannah ralph will understand it and he tucks it away coming to the very last thing in the rucksack bag which is a box wrapped in three layers oil skin leather black velvet it opens to a square wooden box that has no hinge or clasp that he can see and it's as big as the palm of a man's hand marked in exotic patterns

astid jokes that well if you were a mechanic you'd be able to figure it out and he flicks her off the gunwale of labelle sauvage and she turns into a butterfly before she hits the water peering into the box and then helping melton figure out how to open it it works kind of like a puzzle they press a panel sideways and a narrow panel comes up and he works out the order and reveals a beautiful golden instrument lying on a bed of black velvet. It was the most beautiful thing Malcolm and his demon had ever seen. It was just as Dr. Ralph had described it to him, but finer than he could ever imagined. The 36 pictures around the dial were minute and clear, the three hands and the one needle were exquisitely shaped out of silver-gray metal,

and a golden sunburst surrounded the center of the dial. Oh my god, I love the descriptive language here. You can really, you can picture that alethiometer, the look of awe on Malcolm's face, his joy at discovering something new and beautiful. It's a cherished and beautiful description of the innocence of childhood that also kind of puts me in mind of john travolta as vincent vega opening that briefcase in with the golden glimmer being all we see yeah it's so magical and it almost takes on even more weight, right? In that, I mean, it's this beautiful, exquisite thing.

And if you look at the craftsmanship of it, it's something that a mechanic would appreciate, right? Yeah. That's an amazing point. It is. With its little hands and its clockwork. Yeah. Well, Malcolm realizes that in talking about it he's been whispering to asta because he's just so bewitched by its beauty they agree to just put it back and keep it safe for

later they speculate that gerard has stolen this and that this was the sixth missing alethiometer that hannah had mentioned and when malcolm returns to the silent glade he finds lyra napping in the grass so there she is sleeping wrapped in a sunshine colored blanket i want a sunshine colored blanket uh dianya is braiding alice's hair weaving flowers in and some of the butterflies rest on the sleeping pan and some on the woman's shoulders and neck a few try to settle on bed but he's grumpy and growls at them and they fly off alice seems embarrassed but also delighted and malcolm looks at her their bond had been strengthened since killing bondville but he was so used to her sneering frowning face but so now she almost like looks pretty they both feel very awkward

looking away from the other and mal closes his eyes to the murmurs of Dianya to Alice, feeling sleepy and warm, and then wakes up suddenly, shaken by Alice, who whispers they have to leave, come quickly to the fire. He almost falls, he's dizzy, but they go to the fire, where the sunset has illuminated the glade, and in the middle, bare-breasted and shouldered, tits out, sits Dianya, holding and feeding Lyra from her nipple we are doing a lot of breastfeeding episodes all at once finally we get the boobs the boobs anyway the boobs of dust wait why didn't we call this series that

because then no one would listen to it that's true but wait didn't you have boobs last week too? Yes, exactly. We are in a boob run right now. And Thomas Elian is wonderful analysis of Ariane's nipples on her recent appearance with Radio Westeros too. Did I start this?

That's true. Did I set off this chain of events by unlocking something in the universe? I see a HBO contract in your future. That's true. You do just throw it in the dust. see i see a hbo contract in your future that's true all you need is dragons i've heard that they make people they're just like just throwing boobs for no reason um like actually though like they'll have an executive not executive but someone on set representing the studio and be like you should just put boobs in this scene i want to be a boob representative I mean we kind of are now I'm like a sommelier of titties yeah

you know veering off of the boob talk to talk about butterflies for a second I wanted to bring up that it's interesting where the butterflies are settling on that they're settling on the sleeping pan right and on Dianya and they're trying to settle on Ben but that he's shirking them off

which kind of lets us know that alice isn't really gonna completely fall for it like it's is it like the butterflies are sort of trying to claim and convert them and also that none are on malcolm i think she just doesn't like malcolm she's like i'm gonna take these two girls and like fuck you malcolm yeah that's interesting it's definitely like alice is not under the spell. Yes, that's the words. The woman looks up at them and gives them a smile that's so strange she might have been inhuman. Dianya proudly declares she's giving the child good milk and Lyra belches, continuing to suck in a way that Malcolm and Alice are like, wow, I've never seen her suck like that. Asta whispers to Malcolm, this woman is trying to steal Lyra. She's not good, and Ben agrees with her.

Malcolm begins to protest and almost defend the woman, because of course Malcolm is under her spell. But Alice says, Dianya ain't a proper human, pointing to the butterflies all over Pan. Yes, so we have these lines. You know the fairies in stories? Well, they take human children. Not really, said Malcolm. Only in stories. But story

after story. In songs, too. They all say that happens. They steal kids and they're never seen again. It's true. Come away, human child, to the waters of the world with the fairies hand in hand for the world's more full of weeping than you can understand that's a little passage from a william butler yates poem called the stolen child celtic legend often offers myths about fairies stealing a child and replacing it with a changing it feels very much like Pullman's exploring that concept here. Yes.

Definitely. Yeah, it does. And you know, in normal times it wouldn't be so weird, right? If this was just a random woman, it would be like, wow, you're a kidnapper, but it seems there's mystical stuff going on. Malcolm starts in with,

well, normally I'd be worried, but Alice and Astar are like, Malcolm, everything's different since the flood. Things have changed. We live in a society. He tries to remember his fairy tales and he's like, can we bargain with them? Do fairies keep promises? Is there something about names? They know Dianya will try to steal Lyra when they go to sleep, but also they can't pack

up without Dianya realizing they're trying to steal Lyra back, so they hatch a quick plan. Trade the alethiometer, make a deal. They return to Dianya and tell her that they have to leave and take Ellie with them, but she won't let them. She says, she's mine. She's drunk my milk. She's going to stay with me because i want to and i have the power yes so it's kind of interesting right because dianya as we can see might be is like some sort of fairy queen-esque thing right but it's quite different from like the other like kinds of fairies like the scottish brownies or brunies however you want to pronounce it it's interesting that he's she's trying to steal Lyra by suckling her and giving Lyra her milk when usually, like, when it comes to those kinds of fairies, like brownies or brunies, usually it's the fairies who like to be given milk.

Like, you would, like, put out a little bowl of milk and stuff and be like, here, this is for you. But you don't say that because you can't see them in that moment. And they also tend to steal sometimes human women during childbirth to suckle fairies, not the other way around so much. Yeah. A lot of that changeling and

trading for suckling fairies, I find that really interesting in these stories that I've been checking into so far. Yeah. Dianya plans to raise Lyra as one of her own people. Alice comments, Ellie isn't one of her people, but Dianya says, she drank my milk. You can't alter that.

Alice asks what people she means, and she tells them the oldest people there are, the first inhabitants of Albion. She'd be a princess, one of them. It's curious to reference to Britain of Albion. She'd be a princess, one of them. It's curious to reference to Britain as Albion. It's a very ancient name and it just adds the mystique and otherworldly feel.

Pullman hasn't really been subtle here. He's flying a lot of supernatural flags. He's having the time of his life right here, first of all. Like, the prose is out of control. He's out here like look at your beautiful marshmallow world you live in and the glory of it i'm gonna write about it and then he is just tackling supernatural reference after supernatural reference and playing with all these

themes and there's a theme that i think is really significant here which is the idea of albion as a parallel or an alternative identity for britain uh in mythology it is the oldest mythical mystical counterpart british medieval legend and myth the isle now known as britain was named albion after an exiled queen albina who was the eldest of a family of sisters who had been exiled from their homeland in some versions it's greece some versions of the story say syria really interesting tales about these sisters and a lot of tragedy but also a lot of good that happens and i think geographically significant it's fascinating very geographically geographically significant

especially given the direction this trilogy is going to take in the next book and given how he handles his maps right like the fact that we have Brightain, Britain, our weird spelled Britain for this world and how different things lay over each other on the map and have changed like Texas. Interesting. Yeah.

Very. Well, Malcolm hatches an idea. He says, he offers to exchange treasure, a treasure fit for a queen. He says, you are a queen, right? And she responds that she is. And so he pushes, asking if she's a fairy person. But she changes the subject and she's like, where's the treasure?

Malcolm offers her a look at it and Alice says she'll hold Ellie while she looks. But the fairy queen isn't that naive. She says this must be a trick for two young people to have a treasure to look after too that she would really care about. Alice and Malcolm counter her and propose a trade. Okay, if you can explain to us why we are looking after Ellie, you can keep her and the treasure.

At first he's only going to give her one chance, but then she bargains and gets herself three chances. That first chance? She goes, she's your sister. Your parents have died they left her to you to look after wrong second chance you stole her from her crib and you're taking her to cellar in london also wrong and then finally she was in care of the nuns and the flood came and you and sandra took her from her crib and put her in your boat and you were swept away by the flood and there was a man chasing you and then you killed him.

And then she was taken by the Sisters of Holy Obedience and you rescued her and brought her here. Malcolm asks, he's like, wait a second, who rescued the child? And she's like, Richard and Sandra did, of course. And he's like, and who? Who's the child that they brought here? And she says, Ellie, of course. who who's the child that they they brought here and she says ellie of course and malcolm is like got him because as he reveals they are malcolm alice and lyra not sandra richard and ellie and the woman begins to wail terribly she opens her arm she drops lyra who alice catches

and tears flood her eyes she cries that they're taking her baby away. The way that she releases it here puts me in mind of the banshee. A banshee is a female spirit in Irish folklore who heralds the death of a family member, usually by wailing or shrieking. In the stories I was told as a child, the banshee would throw a comb at you

so you're always petrified walking in the dark of someone throwing a comb at me. I was going to say, I can imagine that say i can imagine that i can imagine that being used by parents for sure i'm like i don't know warren this one sounds like you were you were getting played with by your parents i mean i don't know my parents mess with me all the time so i can't they were mean

i can't deny that chloe i guess. I guess it's a passage. I'll write a passage. Yeah, there are a lot of different terms for the Banshee, right? Like Keening Woman, whose whale was so piercing it shatters glass. And in Scottish folklore, a similar creature is known as the Little Washer Woman, or Little Washer at the Ford, who is seen as an omen washing bloodstained clothes or armor of those who are about to die. as an omen washing bloodstained clothes or armor of those who are about to die and it's also interesting that she was still wrong even if she had gotten their names right she would have been wrong because he's not dead bone v isn't dead they don't know that obviously and they couldn't use that to their advantage but they didn't kill a man uh and i i wonder if her magic and if anything

would have happened had had that been the problem. I find it interesting as that omen of the blood washing, the banshee at the river washing the bloodstained clothes or armor of those who are about to die does actually hearken Bon Vie who will die at the end of this book or by the end of this book. So that kind of is a little bit of an omen too. Yeah. I guess part of it is just to throw you off before the next chapter and we're like oh shit he's alive and we can say that because we're going to cover the next chapter in like i don't know a few minutes but part part of it is that and i think there's a point in these chapters where malcolm says he was inspired for this idea by rumple

stiltskin uh you know saying that you need to know my name and this idea of bargaining with fairy folk uh and also of course uh you see that a lot in other fairy stories right that um knowing someone's true name has power so it's also funny that he tied it back and got that idea from rumpelstiltskin because rumpelstiltskin was also trying to steal a baby he's like so you're gonna give me your firstborn if I help you right and she's like I guess until she gets out of it

yeah uh yeah there's something very fun in that Rumpelstiltskin set up for the three chances and that she wastes her first two chances too. That she plays it real like, oh, it's this. Nope, that's wrong.

Oh, it's this. Nope, that's wrong. Oh, it must be this very exact, detailed version of everything you've done. Yeah, that's what happened. She's looking for three chances, but she really only needs the one. Yep, she fairy flexed. Yeah, she shouldn't have done that.

That was hubris. Yeah, it was hubris. Yes. I know about it from the time I tried to cut my own hair, but it turned out fine. Well, Malcolm tries to offer the wooden box to Diana as like a consolation prize. Like, sorry, I feel bad for taking Lyra,

but here, you can have this. She doesn't even care about it. He just like chucks it at her. He's like, I don't know. Take this box. prize like sorry i i feel bad for taking lyra but here you can have this uh and she continues to wail he just like chucks it at her he's like i don't know take this box fucking take this box and it's me because he's you know he responds it's a treasure and he tries to leave and then dianya wails and goes for alice and alice is like holding lyra out of reach as dianya clings to her legs and she's like, Malcolm couldn't understand. How could a man understand? You must.

Didn't you like how you looked after I arranged your hair? I can make you so lovely. Every man wants you. I have that power. First of all, don't be a dick. Okay, Alice can do that on her own. Dianya. Wow.

She's really just mean. You don't need to be out there like that, calling her out. It's cruel. self-esteem malcolm helplessly looks at alice knowing that she's a little self-conscious and he watches her face contort and finally her face settles and it settled on contempt alice calls dianya a liar and tells her to let go of her legs leaving with lyra and malcolm they look back one last time watching the woman turn the box over and over and over in her hands alice asks what she's gonna do when she opens it and malcolm says she never will she's not a mechanic there's a real strength and power to alice in

this book i think isn't there and particularly in this chapter it's just it's a pity pullman neglects her so much especially in the next book. There's also elements here of Malcolm channeling his inner Loki the tricksters. Absolutely. Using trickster power against some other tricksters, right? Mm-hmm.

And they settle into the boat the rucksack is stowed under the thwart and they propel La Belle Sauvage away from the island. This chapter is so heavy on mythology, and our first deep exposure to another world that Pullman is focusing on in this trilogy. I know a lot of mythology, especially Celtic mythology, has been hijacked or watered down, or even lost to Christian religions. Given Pullman's aversion to organized religion, is he emphasizing a point, do you think, in these chapters about the simplicity or the type of life in pagan times

or earthly beliefs? Yeah, you know, Eliana mentioned earlier about how these people of the secret commonwealth are kind of being pushed to the top of the water, right, as they're kind of being flooded out from their underground homes. And I think there's a lot to be said there right because the people who believe in and are a part of or protect the secret commonwealth even seem to have a better understanding and faith in the

elements we see them able to navigate easily uh through some of these more natural hurdles they come across even in the main trilogy right with egyptians and the egyptian party later on in this book how most of the mythical we encounter they seem not as affected right i think it feels so pointed in a way of life how those in the ccd and even in oakley street right like ex-chancellor nugent is a total dick as we've realized. It really shows that Oakley Street isn't always any better than the CCD or the Magisterium and I think there's a lot of that that Hannah grapples with during

this obviously, especially when they offered Malcolm up as kind of a sacrifice slash a bait basically earlier and it feels like the CCD and Oakley Street both use and burn resources right both physical resources and both people elemental resources in that wake and it's kind of that parallel of sustainable lifestyle it feels like right like respecting the earth

and the world and the people that we live in and what we owe to each other in the earth yeah i can kind of get that as well and i also want to talk about in ireland and the old celtic gods that eliana mentioned earlier the two of the danan they were denigrated to the role of fairies people living under the dune mound or fabled islands or even within the water domains similar denigration occurred but all deities in other surviving pockets of Celtic kingdoms such as Cormor, Brittany and the Isle of Man. In his poem The Fairy Queen which we also spoke about earlier Edmund Spencer emphasizes the importance of performing one's duty and accepting responsibility to complete the quest. That sounds a lot like Malcolm and Alice in this story but also so many

others in the original trilogy. What is it about loira that inspires this yeah that loyalty inspiring journey that you know yorick and will and all these characters go on definitely feels prominent in that same way and you know talking about what you're saying with some of that lore and the people that are kind of forced out like aliana had said uh it's interesting when you consider the kind of the degrading of how people that are marginalized like the roma for example and how they you know when you speak of the fairies how these people were made to be called the fairies and live underground and it makes me think of the egyptians kind of in the way that they're treated in this story especially in the elemental interactions they have. That's the closest thing to the human secret commonwealth is probably these people.

But when do myths and lore and legends get degraded by the government and by religion to, you know, basically become nothing? yeah that's interesting i didn't know that the twadadan and were decided to become fairies later on which is again very interesting they're enormous yeah i think it's just kind of typical as well and highlighting things the pulmon talks of the element of christianity embracing these kind of pagan beliefs and indoctrinating them into their own cultures. And the ones that didn't seem kind of cast them off as being evil and bad and of the devil. And it's funny how, like, even a lot of the festivals and celebrations that we have now

were really pagan in origin. Yeah. And based on all those old, really old beliefs where people believed in many gods and many gods of the sea, gods of the earth you know it's just fascinating how he's exploring that in

such a subtle way yeah absolutely and weeping it into this world sort of giving them life again you know through the stories yeah it's lovely it's charming as well preserving it yeah it's preservation preserving a people yeah yeah cultures and traditions well speaking of preserving things that brings us to chapter 22, Resin.

Yes, Resin, we are jumping back into La Belle Sauvage. Well, in a minute, though, in a minute, because first we need to go catch up with what some of our other antagonists, we'll call them, have been doing. other antagonists, we'll call them, have been doing. Amidst all the destruction the flood brought, a few nuns in a small area by Oxford was totally small news, and the CCD and Oakley Street kind of had a hard time getting real information about it. But Oakley Street is lucky to have a slight advantage. Hannah Ralph, her alethiometer, and the boy and the girl in the canoe that are watching over baby Lyra Bellacla. While Oakley Street has Hannah, the CCD, though, has better resources. They have seven boats, including a powerboat, compared to Oakley Street's three.

As this chapter opens, I do find myself wondering, did Secret Commonwealth play a role in causing the flood? Or did the flood allow the Secret Commonwealth to access and be more part of the human world it's speculated i think that the egyptians believe the secret commonwealth is involved i could see that it could be like i wonder if it's like you know we're seeing that the flood creates this way of being like it feels like it's thinned the world right then the the different gates between the two worlds right and this i that it's not necessarily like the way it is in the north right but existing on this plane and it does feel i mean maybe they did it because they're like you know what would be fun if we had a flood and then had a giant party like i mean maybe they just do it every now and then and they're like let's just have

a giant flood party or it's a way to exploit and get resources back you know is the other idea is take back part of their earth during this time when they put humans at a disadvantage i mean i wouldn't want to call it like waging a war but it is kind of like a little bit of chaos a power vacuum so to speak they can utilize and obviously navigate better than the government yeah i don't know if it's war because at the same time it's kind of just like they're just doing it for i don't know shits and giggles but also i mean it's not really shits and giggles in the end and it is passive war because they've been basically i mean the magisterium and the ccd have been performing acts of war on people for ages if they were different or had magic.

So, yeah, I guess it actually is just a passive part of their war. Well, two Egyptian narrowboats in a boat that is hired by Bud Schlesinger from Tilbury are amongst these. And Egyptians, however, they have proven to be a valuable resource for Oakley Street. The CCD, instead, their biggest resource is fear, right? They use fear to question people for information. And both sides of the battle set are out looking for a La Belle Sauvage, but have been buffeted by the weather as well. So everything is just very confusing and it's wet and it's annoying. But this, again, doesn't feel like a normal flood lord nugent begins to realize because they lose sight of land at one point and later on they see what might be a monstrous crocodile all the way up here and then one night they're like i think i hear an orchestra playing

and then there are mysterious lights below the surface too i did a little digging into mythological creatures and deities represented by a crocodile and that led me to an egyptian deity called sobek or sebek depending on which part of egypt you're from i guess mythological creatures and deities represented by a crocodile and that led me to an Egyptian deity called Sobek or Sebek depending on which part of Egypt you're from I guess. According to Wikipedia Sobek was an ancient Egyptian deity with a complex and fluid nature. He's associated with the Nile crocodile or the West African crocodile and is represented as a crocodile or a human with a crocodile head. Sobek serves as a protective deity or a human with a crocodile head. Sobek serves as a protective deity with apotropaic qualities,

invoked particularly for protection against danger, ward off or turn away harm or evil influences. I think that's so interesting because Malcolm keeps thinking about the Nile, right? He's thought about it like three times in these two chapters because he did a lot of studying of the Nile in the novels he's thought about it like three times in these two chapters because he did a lot of studying of the novel of the novel of the nile in the novels he's borrowed interesting that's interesting yeah and maybe and it's weird because you think of this as like that's actually pretty terrifying like i would be terrified if that were behind me but it's interesting to think of it as warding off or like as protecting them. Yeah. Yeah. I love that.

I love this reveal, right? Because Lord Nugent's companions that are with him are Gyptian. And they use a phrase to describe this, one that we have been talking about. It's a part of the secret commonwealth. We've talked a bit about Robert Kirk, who wrote the secret commonwealth of fairies and other lore he wanted to argue that you could be a good christian and also believe in other world elements that are pervasive in the community he wanted to argue with his book and with these stories of all these different fairies and people that had interactions with fairies uh kind of the humanity behind it and that we are all

one people's sharing these worlds or world and i think that's so prominent here it's interesting to have that look of nugent being introduced to these other worlds a very straight strict government man who is very black and white yes or no a b you're either helping or you're against he doesn't see these gray areas or these complexities and it's very obvious that this is his eye being opened here we can almost picture Nugent on the boat and he's bowler hat with his briefcase and his umbrella in the floor this is sorry it amuses me yeah they say no more when he asks them about the secret commonwealth and they move on they go in search of LaB Belle Sauvage, which, speaking of, over at La Belle Sauvage with Malcolm,

we're going to flip right back over because there's a quick switch, and it's running smoothly down the water like a great river, like Malcolm had read about. The Amazon, the Nile, the volume carries them on without snag or stop. The sun goes down. Lyra sleeps, and Malcolm and Alice chat very quietly, realizing, surprisingly, they're not hungry after all that adventure. They wonder if Lyra is now part fairy from the fairy milk, and realize they ate fairy food as well, the eggs.

They float across moonlit water, and Alice asks how he knew to fool Dianya. I'd like to just digress for a brief moment and mention just how beautifully this is written the use of color and geography in his in pulmon's descriptive prose creates an eerie sense of imminent danger particularly in play as they approach the water bomb yeah yeah it's great to call out woven into all of this right is is what we were discussing earlier of how malcolm explains that he remembered the story of rumplelstiltskin and was like, I guess names are important to fairies. And he says without Alice, though, insisting on the usage of the fake names, he'd never have been able to pull it off. here and especially in the original trilogy of His Dark Materials. Hiding her true name shields her here but later on in her life in the original trilogy Lyra does cast off her last name especially

as the legend of herself builds and she becomes Lyra Silvertongue, a name that she kind of chose for herself from the name that was given to her by yorick bernison and she really adopts that but there are other figures other people like the witches and those who know about the prophecy who talk of lyra having another name that's also described in some ways as her true name as well eve that's so good and I know you're not very far along in it, Eliana, but you now kind of understand that Doctor Who doesn't have a name, he's just the Doctor. He has a name,

but no one knows it, except some people know it, but no one knows it. And it's kind of that legend. It's the same thing, no one knows it though, he's the Doctor, and I love that lore of that name thing, and at first I was thinking that oh, the fake names, like her Lizzie and this and that and the other, but I didn thinking that oh the fake names like her Lizzie and this and that and the other but I didn't even

think about Eve that's brilliant thank you so good so good hidden in plain sight but as excellent as fairy eggs unsure I don't know they sound delicious

the soft bread I want to like lay on it is this where this is where laura learned how to make omelets this is where she got her love of eggs yeah wait where did she does she get a love of boob who knows um okay after a moment of silence malcolm asks are we murderers alice is okay, we don't actually know that he's dead. First of all, thank you. That's what I've been saying. And they didn't intend to kill him. They were defending Lyra. Malcolm says they're at least thieves then because of stealing the rucksack. But Alice says there's no sense in leaving it there. The box saved them. She reiterates everything he did, it was to keep them safe, but he still feels bad. And Alice isn't really able to extend that same sympathy after what he did to Sister Katerina and what he did to her. She hadn't really told Malcolm about it, so now she tells him. Bone V had bought her fish and chips, taken her for a walk in the

meadow in the dark. It was nighttime, wasn't it? Why did he want to go for a walk? Well, he, he wanted- Malcolm felt foolish. Oh, right. He had kissed her at the bridge, he had told her she was pretty. A tear glitters on her cheek, her voice is unsteady, and she tells Malcolm there ain't many boys that wanted to be like that with her, and that's all he did, just a kiss, but she felt so many things from it she says she always dreamed that if it had happened the other person's demon would be nice to her demon too like in stories but the hyena had been growling and biting and pissing and bong vi just wanted to keep going so she said no no more yeah it should be like the monkey and still maria right oh still maria i love the swoon the monkey and the still maria swoon yeah such good writing just grasping each other's fur

but so sad to hear the helen mccrory yesterday as well, talking about Stelmaria. That's true. Really sad. It is. She's quite young. Only 52. Yeah. She, of course, was the voice actress for Stelmaria in the current television series. Yeah. Fuck cancer.

Yep. You got it, Chloe. Yep. Well, coming back to La Belle Sauuvage though in this book um in regards to this characterization of bonville right he we'll see later in this chapter he's gonna return congratulations children you have not killed him quite yet um his leg is now injured though mirroring how his demon's leg also became injured at the beginning of this book through his encounter with farger quorum but we're gonna dwell

a little bit on what's going on here with bonneville and his name and yes yes it is true the rumors are true in french uh bon vie and the way that it's spelled, would translate to good city or good town, which is kind of fun to think of in the context of these little fairy stories that we're visiting, but also the way that Oxford might have been characterized for a bit at the beginning of the story. But dwelling on that pronunciation right of Bonnevie and what it means in French, it's also a bit of a pun. It's pronounced the same as Bonneville, spelled differently as opposed to this last name spelling it would be spelled B-O-N-N-E B-I-E, which means good life in French. And quite frankly, it seems like Bonneville's life,

sorry, for this moment, I will call him Bonneville.. Bonvy's life has been anything but good, especially as he begins to descend. And his last name becomes really ironic, right? He's seducing Alice at first with these nice words and his charming looks. And Malcolm notes that he looks really nice to him, as far as he can tell. But as we see, he's kind of deranged. And Bonvi is the sort of Dorian Gray-like figure. Dorian Gray and his enchanted painting, right? Dorian Gray also did not live a good life. And the hyena demon is taking on the role of that enchanted painting. But unlike Mr. Gray, Bonvi actually, unfortunately, has the curious painting around everywhere. He can't leave it locked up, like in a closet. And so everyone can see that corruption upon his soul

and be like, this is not hot. I love what you're saying there, Eliana. But I'd also like to note that the French word for bad is mal. Oh, that's true. Paulman having a little giggle with that? Yes. Is that why he's such a bad? Never mind.

A bad boy? A bad boy? Oh, God. Come on. he's such a bad never mind a bad boy a bad boy oh god come on uh wash your mouth out more and no um eliana what you're saying there with the painting is so interesting too because of how bon vie's character thank you for saying it it made me so happy i really appreciate it. That's it. That's the last time it's happening. Yes, ma'am. Yes, ma'am. Yes, Miss Boss Lady Ma'am. I find that interesting, especially with the connection between Bon Vie and Marisa.

I know that we've talked about it before, but the collectors, right, the mini novella that Pullman is going to re-release, he's going to re-release it in actual book form, but the collectors kind of revolves around a painting of a woman with a monkey so I'm

wondering if there's some Dorian Gray vibes in connecting that too. Interesting. Interesting. I do love the Dorian Gray link and it's very when you say it, it's obvious. Yeah. We have a passage from Alice who continues talking about kind of what she dealt with with Bonvy.

I thought it was going to be the best thing, and in the end it was just scorn and hate. But I was so torn about it, Mal, because first of all, he was so gentle and so sweet to me. He said it twice that I was beautiful. No one ever said that to me, and I thought no one ever would. She mops her eyes up with a torn handkerchief and tells him, when Diana had done her hair up, she thought maybe she was beautiful. Malcolm tells her she's pretty and she thanks him. He tries to sound loyal and Alice kind of gives a bitter laugh. It's a little bit disconcerting how Pullman writes Malcolm in this circumstance,

as Alice reveals details about Beauville's attack. What he shows is remarkable maturity as a confidant and in his ability to listen but this is a team that Tullman consistently falls short on unfortunately in the next book it's there again sadly it's concerning how

women are used kind of as that plot device and this stance for those characters hmm yeah very much so yeah i think here i can like it's weird i can forgive it of malcolm a little just because he's like has no idea he's like 11 and he's like i have no idea what is being disclosed to me at this moment but yeah it is disconcerting I do think that's part of it I think we're supposed to he doesn't have that understanding

it's like how when Will kills the witch and she's all like you don't understand you've never been in love it's kind of like that sentiment of Malcolm you'll never understand you're an 11 year old boy that somehow knows karate and how to spy yeah but maybe one day when malcolm's 15 which is harder for will right you know will

you're never gonna be over 100 years old like this witch jesus christ no when you're my age yeah yeah malcolm reveals his own fears to alice so he does kind of give a little bit right he he talks about the hyena pissing in the path of the garden and how he can empathize with what she experienced in that manner or when bonfi had visited the trout and all the patrons moved away from him and the hyena but he had been so friendly after all this time he was just after Lyra. Alice mourns that Sister Katerina never stood a chance with him in the way, and they wonder if he wanted to kill Lyra or just kidnap her. They circle back to the alethiometer, which Malcolm explains to Alice. He wonders if Bonvy planned to use it as a bargaining chip, because it takes years of experience to read.

He thinks Bonvy was probably a spy, mentioning the many papers in the rucksack that he plans to return to hannah ralph if they get back that is which he's confident now he feels pretty confident they will get back yeah so i mean eventually right they eventually will as we know there's uh things happen um but i have a tinfoil i have a tinfoil of all right so earlier i think warren you were bringing up did bonneville want to kill lyra or kidnap her and i'm like this kind of just makes me think that maybe he did just want to kidnap her because what if bonneville knew about the prophecy or knew something about like the lithiometer someone who would be able to use it and read it right the witches

know about this and what if he wanted Lyra so that she could read the alethiometer for him as she grew older I don't know necessarily if he was playing the long long game but yeah that's like a long investment you gotta get her literate

again takes years to understand and then somehow she gets to 11 and she just knows it, you know? I don't know. I also, I think there's something in that that Lyra is the most, the biggest bargaining chip, right? Like, the alethiometer is one thing, but if he

knows about the prophecy and he heard it from somewhere, that means other people know of the prophecy as we know they've been trying to know it so having that prophetic child that's a bargaining chip and the aliciometer yeah that's like yeah that's the whole set you collected them all and you can sell that together yeah you better start putting hotels and houses on that really fuck it up you know pass go enjoy your Enjoy your $200 for now. The thought that immediately comes to me when you say that

Eliana is going back to the Ruppelstiltskin type stuff from the previous chapter of the picture in Loira in a tower with Bonvia coming every day with the alethiometer and locking the door and leaving her with bread and water. Oh, that's what it is. Spinning the golden straw versus

spinning the golden alethiometer it could be golden compass elix if you know what I mean something like that that is kind of what I was thinking that he would do with her I mean again it's kind of too long of a game you gotta get her at least a little bit literate I think in

non-magical languages to some extent but it is very Rapunzel as well right like it's not just it is very Rapunzel as well, right? It's not just, it's very Rapunzel as well with that similar let down your golden hair, let down your golden alethiometer. Maybe there's an element of to briefly talk about the other series

you cover, maybe there's an element of Bonvieme being Littenfinger and Lyra being Sansa. Oh no! Interesting. I don't like this. I don't either. I mean, it's not outside of the realm. It's distasteful. Distasteful. It's not outside of the realm.

I'm not selling myself here, am I? It's not, yeah. Well, they chat about how time seems to be going really strangely here during the flood. Like they're between time, like in a dream. They're in fact out there between worlds. Have they managed to cross worlds as we explore in subtle knife or is this different does this part of the bell savage herald or exacerbate things which we read in his dark materials which actually occur afterwards

yeah it feels like they're in between worlds i know we're going to talk more about this idea but again going back to that connection of as they enter this little other paradise that people don't see them in, definitely feels like they're in between realms. Yeah, absolutely. And I think Malcolm's someone, right, who can go between worlds, not maybe in the same literal sense that Lyra and Will do, but we're seeing it here. literal sense that Lyra and Will do but we're seeing it here as you said right have they crossed worlds between like worlds that coexist in the same space and Malcolm

does it by kind of going between Hannah Ralph's world right the academic world and then his own okay that's an interesting take yeah I mean Lyra does it too right in the series where she also traverses between the different worlds of jordan college and the people on the streets so

it ties in with um what you're saying does it exacerbate the things we read in his dark materials and i think it does okay alice asks if this is real and he confirms it is it's as real as anything but he says it seems bigger than he thought. He wants to tell her about the spangled ring in his eye, but he doesn't want to lose its meaning, so he mentions, we're getting closer to Asriel, and soon we can go home to our parents, but as soon as he says it, he gets choked up, daydreaming of their home and delicious food and loving faces. had this been a few days ago he wouldn't have cried in front of alice but now both of them just start sobbing

on their separate sides of the boat if they had been closer lyra would be between them and he thinks they maybe would have embraced and wept against the waves together they float on finding no place to stop in the high water no trees trees to grab, no land, no islands. They could have been on the Amazon, for all he knew, and he realizes, how are we going to find Asriel even if we make it to London? It's a great question. London's very big. And everything's underwater. Even Chelsea. underwater even chelsea yeah that's true beyond the hunger and exhaustion malcolm finds a new current in the water and it seems that they're caught in it like a smaller river within a large one he tries to pedal out but then they're just taken even harder into the river he tries to see where they're going and alice wakes up asking what's happening he explains the current but he thinks that they're going in the right direction that is i was gonna say that's never worked out

well for me but sometimes it does, to be honest. It's the darkest hour of night now. The moon and stars are shining on the water. Everything seems clear until then they notice something dead ahead. Maybe it's an island and they're heading to crash right into it. But as they get closer, they hear something else. A waterfall. I was looking at what a waterfall can symbolize

um you know some of the things right i might use a waterfall to symbolize and the image of a waterfall personally it always amazes me as a reader listener or viewer it's a splendid natural phenomenon it's an enjoyable sight for everyone's eyes waterfalls can symbolize the process of letting go of of cleansing, and the continuous flow of energy and life. It's interesting that it also is kind of like a veil, right? Almost like a veil between worlds. That's

also, as they pass through the waterfall and as they go through it, it does as it cascades down, seem like a veil between them. Absolutely. I'm kind of picturing a lot, you know, a lot of them movies with the waterfall coming down someone sitting in a similar kind of scenario as opposed to malcolm and alice going to canoeing through the waterfall into a cave or onto the next phase of their

journey kind of symbolic in that sense you know a new world yeah yeah it does feel like maybe even that fairy island was almost like the nexus or like the waiting room, the lobby, before they moved into this new world. And it almost feels like they go through several, which we won't get to Father Tam today, but it does feel like they're going through several worlds. Well, this is a roller coaster ride. It straight up feels like a water park ride. I'm very jealous. it kind of sounds fun that's how long it's been since activities outside with people uh they hang on tight and malcolm really regrets not steering harder earlier to get out of this he's like oh i really should

have tried harder he tries to paddle out again but it's far too late and the waterfall comes up out of the island deep within the earth They continue toward the heavily vegetated island, and a sharp crash of branches and twigs takes them. He throws his arms up just in time, and they end up in a dark tunnel, water booming around them, and he yells, telling Alice to hold tight to Lyra, and he hangs tight to the paddle and Bonvy's rucksack. Alice cries out in fear, Malcolm is drenched, and as they head toward the steep waterfall, a happy burst of laughter comes from Lyra, who's pleased with herself and gleeful and gurgling. Malcolm's glad she's safe, but then he realizes Alice doesn't seem to be. He calls to her over the water, and suddenly the canoe shoots out of the dark cavern,

bobbing into a gentle stream between green banks and glowing lanterns. Alice lies unconscious, Lyra in her arms, bent beside her, and Malcolm moves the canoe to the left bank quickly, lifting Lyra out of Alice's arms and trying to resuscitate Alice. It seemed Alice had crashed into the gunwale, but no wound or blood was in sight. She eventually comes back to, struggling to sit up and asking where Lyra is. Lyra is, of course, fine in the grass,

still giggling, had a blast, do it again. Can I go again? They go check on Lyra and see their surroundings, a great garden, immense lawns and flowerbeds, the grass growing green in the light of the lanterns. Or were they lanterns? It seemed to be large, glowing blossoms on all of the tree branches. And so many trees.

That light was everywhere. I love this. It's very intentionally dust imagery. Isn't it? Yeah, it's the floating light. It's very much like the end of Andrew's spyglass when we see dust. It just reminds me of it. Yeah, yeah.

Another thing that's being hearkened to, though, here, and as we know, we're very much in these fairy lands now, is the lanterns and glowing blossoms probably need no fire or anything to keep them working. We get the same sense, right? That you're like, oh, yeah, that's magic. Environmentally friendly. Yeah, it is actually environmentally friendly. working we get the same sense right that you're like oh yeah that's magic and environmentally friendly yeah it is actually environmentally friendly uh well again that sustainability yeah if only we all had glowing blossoms i think that is like a very significant call out the sustainability there like the blossoms are actually lit you know this is they don't need to create ambaric lighting here yeah i mean they just got magic they still have magic if anyone's wondering what to get greta tonberg for christmas

here we go magic get her some magic oh great well in robert kirk's the secret commonwealth not philip pullman's he described some of those fairy lands and he talks about them described some of them as being like rockland spelled r-a-c-h-l-a-n-d and i'm gonna be real i couldn't find anything i tried to google that and like it doesn't i might have it might just be the wrong spelling because the spelling is different throughout these and people actually you know if if you ever want to make fun of people or something for their typos online or whatever just remember that spelling wasn't really codified until much

later on not so formally but anyways Kirk says like Rockland and other enchanted islands having for lights continual lamps and fires often seen without fuel to sustain them is how you can sort of identify these sort of fairy places

wow i love that yeah i love that the imagery is just great i can just see it now walking up a hill and finding an enchanted land oh we do call this uh fairy lights sometimes some people call it fairy lights when you have those like string lights for your, I don't know, home or garden or whatever. They sure do. Those people use that term for Christmas lights here. Yeah. You know, like you put your Christmas tree and stuff. We call them fairy lights.

I have far too many fairy lights in my home. I just call them. I don't know. What do I call them? String lights. I think I mostly just call them lights. I'm not very, I'm very earth-minded like that. They also make not just the string light version, but they also make some that are like the size of a little bigger than a marble maybe,

or like a large marble size. And they're just floating little bokeh balls basically of light that are like total fairy lights too. And those are fun. You can float them and stuff. Oh. Yeah. Because they're like battery operated and they're covered in plastic so you can just drop it in like a punch bowl and you have beautiful fairy lights

like the fairy lights beneath the surface i would beneath the surface of the of the water like lord nugent just saw right yes an orchestra but that's the thing oh i think that's what we're supposed to be taking away from this, you guys. Lord Nugent looked down and saw the beautiful enchanted fairy lights beneath the surface. Are Malcolm, Alice, and Lyra actually beneath the surface in this world? Absolutely. 100%. I think that's what we're supposed to be thinking about. Especially because they went down a waterfall. Yes.

And how do you go down a waterfall? By going down a waterfall. But I mean exactly when there's a flood everywhere yeah yeah that's my question how magic yep otherworldly magic yeah well these glorious lawns slope up to a terrace in a grand brightly lit house where many guests and servants are moving about like a great ball or party is happening. Behind windows, they dance, they talk, wander around the gardens and terrace, waltzing, conversating. And then on the other bank, there's nothing but a thick fog. In fact, it covers anything beyond the edge of the water and swirls around but never parts. Fog is intended to illustrate obscurity and indistinction.

In the Bible, fog is an image that precedes a great revelation. Alternatively, big pause, dramatic pause, it can represent approaching death, isolation, or drumroll, a transformation into the unreal it's definitely intentional definitely intentional right because it's hiding also like that real world uh it's like you know at disney world for example when you go there's certain places in disney world that have like and in universal or like theme parks that have fully immersive experiences so you don't see anything else happening outside of the area you're in in the park.

You're at Harry Potter World, you see Harry Potter World and you don't see unless you're at a certain angle, you don't see other stuff so you feel like you're in it. I think that's kind of also happening here with perspective. It's blocking the path to reality. They are not in the

real world hmm yeah it's really been flagged heavily yeah it feels like the fog is doing like almost everything that you're saying right it's obscuring things right but there's also great revelation that's gonna happen in a bit that has to do with death and that transformation into the unreal it's all there well before then they have these beautiful fountains and I just again I wish we could see this I would love to see this adapted honestly

it would be a great movie the glowing fountains are sitting there and they have water shooting out of them and trees are laden with golden pears and there's rainbow colored fish in the stream. Does this feel to anyone else like that well-known John Lennon composition? Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds? Huh. You know, you said this and I'm like, or like Octopus's Garden. Yeah.

Or like Strawberry Fields or like, you know what, I'm starting to think these guys did a lot of acid, Warren. I'm starting to feel like these guys took a lot of drugs in their heyday. Now that I examine the names and the contents of these songs, maybe that's just me. But... You might be onto something, Chloe.

Maybe they did. I've got a hunch, y'all. I've got a hunch. It's really beautiful and the golden pears stick out immediately to me. Right? Golden fruit, Greek mythology. The pear tree was sacred to Hera, and there's definitely a lot of Hera floating around here for the fairy queen. She was goddess of marriage, childbirth, jealous, and vengeful. But what sticks out most here to me is the golden pears deriving from

the myth of prometheus and fire prometheus was known for his wit planned to trick the goddesses to go steal fire by throwing a golden pear to distract them with a message that said for the most beautiful goddess of all they you know start fighting each other because like no i'm the prettiest goddess no i'm the prettiest goddess because you know, start fighting each other. He's like, no, I'm the prettiest goddess. No, I'm the prettiest goddess. Because you know how women are, obviously, in mythology. You've heard of us. We're the worst. So he sneaks into Hephaestus' workshop, steals the fire, takes it to Earth, gives it to humans. And you might know what happens next.

Zeus is pissed. He chains him up and he's like, your liver is going to be eaten by the eagles forever and ever. But eventually Zeus ends up freeing him because he makes a prophecy that predicts Zeus is going to get eaten by the eagles forever and ever but eventually zeus ends up freeing him because he makes a prophecy that predicts zeus is going to get dethroned to keep a reminder of the punishment zeus is like you have to make a steel ring from the chains that once bound you and wear it forever because you know that's a punishment so i don't know with the the pear tree representing fertility and female form and immortality and Malcolm having his awakening in this chapter but also Malcolm is kind of very Prometheus in this, right? He's out

there in his boat. They're out there stealing from shops to take care of Lyra. They're meeting all these people that have a different way of life from them and it's very interesting to me the idea of Prometheus stealing fire and now we have Malcolm stealing the alethiometer.

Yeah, stealing the alethiometer, and of course, even Lyra, right? Lyra, who has a bit of that fire in her, represents knowledge, because the fire, besides being important and literal fire, given to humanity, gives them the power to almost rival the gods to know and have knowledge that's something that the main trilogy explores a lot yeah well malcolm is tending to that waterlogged canoe he's drying their things out and he's dizzy with all the strangeness everything survived nothing that couldn't be dried out was at least lost i don't know how that's like great i don't know why he's so pleased about that and he lays it all out while alice and ben play with lyra and pan we have this line blackbird ben is helping pentelimon fly as high as he could which was not quite high enough to reach the lowest branches of a light-bearing tree. I find this little nugget fascinating. Can demons be further from the people? From their people, the older they get?

It's also lovely to see Alice's demon playing with an encouraging pan. Yeah, it's nice for Asta to get rubbing mitts off pan for a second. I'm just kidding, oh my god. It's nice to give a little Ben action in the story. Absolutely. And that's an

interesting concept that like especially because as we age we do grow more separated from ourselves as we see in the future of this series and as we see in characters like mrs coulter whether even before the confirmation of her severing in the tv show that was uh you could tell the way she and her demon interact has probably only increased that way over time so that's curious that's curious yeah they plan to go ask people in the house if they know where asriel lives since they all look like fancy lords and ladies who have some money and they're like oh maybe we'll find some food and change our very fragrant child we have with us lyra who stinks malcolm has to hold her for a bit

so he takes her and he's chatting with her and joking with her and it turns out it's gonna take a lot longer than they think to get to the house it's made clear because they take the path to the palace through gardens with trees of light beds of roses and lilies and other flowers a fountain with blue water another that sparkles a third that sprays not water but eau de cologne, and still they're not much closer to the guests of the party. Tir na Nog was an island paradise and a supernatural realm of everlasting youth, beauty, health, and abundance and joy. Various Irish mythical heroes visited Tir na Nog after a voyage or by invitation of one of its residents. It's reached, among many ways, by journeying after a voyage or by invitation of one of its residents.

It's reached among many ways by journeying through a mist or going underwater. The god that ruled Tirnanog was Manannan Maclure. Similar stories exist in other cultures such as Asgard, Avalon and Elysium.

Oh, Elysium too. I didn't think about that. There's a lot in there with Elysium. Oh, Elysium too, yeah. I didn't think about that. There's a lot in there with Elysium. There's something about the path to the house too, the labyrinth quality going on there, right? That they can't get to the center. It feels enchanted. And in Greek mythology,

labyrinth is an elaborate, confusing structure designed and built by Daedalus for King Minos of Crait at Knossos. It held a minotaur and one year his son, King Minos' son, went to Athens to compete in the games and was killed. So then King Minos was like, all right, seven men, seven women every year now have to die. Otherwise, we're going to end up in dark days and have a plague. And that just is what it is. I've been told this by the gods and we're doing it so people weren't into that right like no one was really into that everyone hated that and in the third year of this people were dying and king agus's son theseus you might know him

he's the one with the ship he was all like i'll slay it father we must stop the brutal sacrifices so theseus meets the king's daughter ariadne and she gives him a thread which he unravels as he goes into the labyrinth it allows him to get in and out of the labyrinth safely there's a bunch of bummer suicide tragedy stuff at the end but we won't go into that uh there's like a difference though between mazes and labyrinths and i find this fascinating labyrinths have a continuous path which leads you to the center as long as you keep going forward. You'll get there eventually. Mazes have multiple paths which branch off and don't really necessarily lead to the center.

You have to kind of figure it out. So this seems more like a labyrinth than a maze. And as we're about to discover, there is a Minotaur in this labyrinth, right? Gerard Bonvy, who appears. Yes. Interesting thoughts for all of those. I want to come back to Trinidad. I didn't know that you would go there by going underwater.

I just assume people just, I don't know. I actually have no idea how people got there. Just that you get invited and then you... Turns out no one tells you any of the fucking terms. And then you go back and everyone you love is dead. Yeah, and regarding the labyrinth um it is interesting there's clearly something wonky going on and and drar does the minotaur i also want to say if you want to experience what this feels like for yourself uh go to the what is it i forgot the name of that island the something the lost woods go to the

lost woods over in breath of the wild oh i know which one you're talking about yeah oh that has a lot of this kind of mythology now i'm really curious play whenever i play zelda now i'm gonna think about it because that has a lot of this quality too yeah they're really into mazes you know in that series they are and even the smoke like with what warren was saying about or the fog having that fog kind of like a smoky path enclosing them in kind of makes it more of that maze labyrinth feeling too that there's no real escape except out the waterfall and father tam as we learn yeah the mist yes we're gonna risk being fired and say it's amazing oh sorry chloe oh god jesus demoted send him to the mail room i'm just kidding he can stay he can stay

alice points out that this path seems like a maze and they decide to go their own straight path. They try that, but they end up going around in circles still. They get no closer. It's not real and it's not normal and they're very frustrated. People are coming down the path though, so they plan to ask them, but it makes no matter because these beautiful young people that walk by completely ignore them. They look right through them. It's like they don't exist.

They're just obstacles on the path he throws a stone at one of the men in the group but the guy takes no notice and at this point Lyra starts to cry so they decide they'll make camp take care of Lyra for a bit and they head back to the canoe which as they go to head back it was like three steps away it's like they didn't even move Malcolm thinks it has to be magic because it makes no sense. They make a fire and they get clean water from a nearby fountain, filling up their water bottles as well. Several people pass them and the fire, but no one speaks to them. It, like them, seems to be invisible. More people pass, young lovers, old men and women, gray-haired

statesmen figures, grandmotherly women in gowns middle-aged people full of power servers with wine and food melcom even takes food from the trays as they pass and they get to enjoy a smoked sandwich a smoked salmon sandwich and other snacks lyra doesn't like the salmon she uh spits the pieces out and melcom laughs about it more mythos links. Reminded me of the legend of Fionn Cúil and the salmon of knowledge. Ah. You know, where Fionn is in care of a wise druid

who's seeking the salmon of knowledge. And of course, as soon as Fionn turns up, he gets lucky and catches it. Leaving Fionn to cook it while he forages, he tells the boy, do not eat any of that salmon. Ominous. He returns to find Fionn sucking a finger

he has burnt on the salmon, and is bereft to realize that Fionn, not he, is now blessed with the gifts of knowledge and wisdom the salmon bestows. Apologies for the digression, I just wanted to acknowledge the resonance in that. I think that's great. I don't think that's a digression at all.

No, that's completely related. And there's something in that, right. No, that's completely related. And there's something in that, right? Like, again, they just filled their waters up at this fountain. And these fountains obviously seem magical of sorts, right? The blue water, the regular water, and then the cologne. I'm interested about that. We're going to talk about that in the discussion for sure, because I think it's very relevant for the secret commonwealth. But are they just chugging magic

potions in this book or what what's gonna happen to these people yeah they were just like fuck it we're just gonna eat the fairy food whatever like they go out of their way now and they're like yeah we'll we'll just eat it whatever I mean they're both just looking at each other like well we had to eat I mean yeah but also somebody had to eat it you know coming back to the salmon of knowledge uh thing that that Warren was discussing I mean it's interesting because he's trying to feed it to lyra right and i think that it counts right even if she spits the pieces out based on the fact that it counted for fion by just sucking his finger and it feels like yeah she's not she she's the one who like basically you know her storyline is about the tree of knowledge yeah she's the wise one wow I can't believe the salmon did her in

it would do me in I'm bewildered by who would feed an infant salmon I wonder that too I also wonder that I was like what is he doing why is he trying to feed her like solid food

karate artist foodie spy she's still like at the breastfeeding stage right like she hasn't even moved on to like the fucking gerber baby food shit it's maybe a little too solid yeah well alice goes to take care of her dirty diaper since malcolm doesn't do that and she returns frowning, but empty-handed. They hadn't found any trash cans on their first walk, though, and she tells Malcolm that when she went to go look for a trash can, it appeared. It just showed up. That's exciting. Holy shit.

They cool the boiling water from the fire for Lyra's bottle, and they feed it to her amidst the glowing trees, listening to the birds. Asta flies up to be with them, but the birds seem to find them invisible as well. Malcolm asks if the birds seem to be young or old and comments, it seems like all the people here are adults who can't see us. Alice tells Malcolm to feed Lyra, handing her over, and they watch their demons.

Ben and Asta, lying as snakes, fooling around, messing around. They're trying to be longer than the other. That's very funny. That's hilarious. It's the cutest shit in the world. Pan joins in, trying to be a snake as well. Do we think there's any similarities or ramifications

between this scene and the one depicted in the Amber's boy glass? I was kind of looking back. There are a couple Polygloss? I was kind of looking back. There are a couple moments, right? I was trying to, like, see the exact language of how the people in the Underworld are described. As far as, like, their solidity. Lyra has a couple moments. Behind them came the endless column of ghosts.

The tunnel was full of whispers, as the foremost encouraged those behind as the brave urged on the faint-hearted as the old gave hope to the young so a column of ghosts when she sees lee scoresby she makes him out in the faint faint light it's very hard to make him out but she makes out his lean form and she also talks about how their faces just consistently are faint and surrounded by mist i think that's very interesting and similar right there has to be something similar here to pull from that world of the underworld versus this but as we're about to learn i do think there's something very interesting in the people's faces being people they know and that element of the underworld right like finding the people they

know and the souls of the people you know. That element to me is very, very interesting. Is it alternate universe or is it alternate underworld? I think Pullman had to be thinking about that passage. That bit of the Ambrose Boyd last when he was writing this had to be present in his mind. For similarity, if not nothing else. Yeah. Especially because

in the beginning they don't hear her right? Or refuse to hear her. So Malcolm maybe needs to just tell them stories. Maybe.

Ah tell them stories. Tell them stories Malcolm. I thought you were going to say earlier that they were snakes because of being the serpents, but... Oh, that's even smarter. Fuck. I was going to be like, what, about Thor Ragnarok? The snake story in Thor Ragnarok? I mean, my first thought was that scene in Disney's Hercules when the two little the two little like what are they called

um like pain and panic right hades's little minions and then they're like we are worms or like also there's a time they turn into snakes and little baby hercules just like that's what i thought of at first but then next i thought of be the serpent uh be the serpent yeah no I could see that too. That's great, especially with the knowledge they just ate, as Warren said. And the tree of knowledge that they also passed with the fruit.

And of course the relationship between the serpents and the prophecy, and it all ties in. Yeah. Thematically, these books are, you could say, very resonant. You could. You could say it. If you were of a mind, you could say that. Of a certain mind.

Well, Alice and Malcolm are of a certain mind. They're talking about their demons and how someday their demons are going to stop changing and settle. Alice wishes she knew when it would happen. And Malcolm wonders why they stop changing and if they'll slow down or stop all at once Alice says her mother always said don't worry about it it would just happen she hopes Ben will settle with something poisonous and Malcolm nods you know he's like yeah that that's understandable watching the people pass by them some of the faces seem familiar they see as we mentioned like people he'd seen in dreams. Friends from school, grown up, strange

but different, like Eric. He even sees a man that looks like a young Mr. Taphouse. He almost jumps up to greet him. He asks Alice if she sees people she knows as well, and she says, yes, I do. I thought I was sleeping at first. Some of them are older and younger as well. Some were dead. She says she saw her grandmother, for instance, who's passed away. He asks if maybe they're dead. And she says, wow, I hope not. He wonders if this is the world Dianya came from. But these people don't seem to see them.

And Dianya had seen them. They had been in their world, though, above the ground then. So here, maybe they're invisible to them. Hmm. Interesting. Malcolm knows this is another world, though, above the ground then, so here, maybe they're invisible to them. Hmm. Interesting. Malcolm knows this is another world, then. Hmm. Hmm. Yeah. I wonder when he figured that out.

It's the earthliness in him, you know, it's that earth knowledge. Ah, it actually might be. Feels different. It really might be, though. You know, this is something else, right? You were talking about, like, oh, who are these people? Why do they have faces that look like people they know? It's something else that seems similar to something that Robert Kirk describes in The Secret Commonwealth. He talks about how there are certain fairies that, like, for some people, there's just fairies that duplicate them and just look like them, living, wandering around throughout throughout the world but mostly can only be seen by those who have the second sight and sometimes uh one of the terms that he gives them are the doubleman which is a very i guess creative name but he not just called him doppelgangers no no i mean no he has all these other different names to describe this uh this uh phenomenon such as a reflex man

co-man twin brother and even just companion and oftentimes these copies right these very very duplicates would outlive the original and they had different reasons for existing or not just existing they just like did different things i mean their goals ranged from like guarding the original to sometimes just counterfeiting the original and their actions for i don't know funsies um so perhaps all of them just come here they congregate here and they come to party here during times like this right uh because that's these sorts of like devilmen seem to be who this party is made up of so you know how in that how he describes uh the changelings and the doubleman kind of thing and how like sometimes it's the nursing and the children and the switcheroo

and switching them to better nurse it didn't really strike me till now but with a lot of these differentiations of and rules of like you can't eat this in the fairy world and you can't eat this from the fairies in the human world and this this that does that remind you guys at all of will and lyra not being able to exist in the same world because of lyra or will would get sick in the other world for too long and die oh that's interesting it almost feels similar with this idea of the doppelgangers and the double men and like what's going on with the mythology and lyra drinking the fairy milk and everything um i didn't really think about it in that aspect but the whole idea that

they could only last maybe 10 more years in each other's world before dying. Hmm. There's definitely something in that, alright. I don't know how it fits, but I think it's something. That's kind of what that double idea really made me think about, so. Maybe Lyra's a fake, you know? Maybe she's a babblinger. Maybe they switched her out. What if they grabbed the wrong kid at the priory

this whole time, and then the whole point of the story is actually that just, like like at the end of the day prophecy's fake. So it would kind of be like the life of Brian. Yeah a little bit actually. I don't know that. You don't know the life of Brian Eliana? No I don't.

No it's Monty Python. What if the three wise men went to the wrong manger and they went to Brian instead of Jesus so Brian was treated as if he was Jesus but he wasn't that I just don't remember a lot for some reason

it's worth a rewatch with like a whiskey some night it was illegal here until the late 80s maybe it was viewed as what's the word for anti-religious you know it was sacrosanct something like that yeah sacrilegious so it was a rite of passage for us was kind of in ditching school and going out to someone's house and watching a video the life of brian was like it was a big deal because it was oh that's rebellious yeah you

were a rebel doing that well we had our moments you you know. We watched The Life of Brian when I was 12. Wow. Yeah. That's nuts. My brother-in-law still I didn't realize it was banned. Oh well, yeah, my brother-in-law makes a big point of watching it every good Friday because it was banned. You could say religiously. Religiously, you could say that, yeah.

If you were a person of a certain mind persuasion anywho that most assuredly is a digression and i apologize well we are full of them thank you malcolm and alice have gotten pretty sleepy from all of this uh and they vouch they're gonna be careful and they're like let's just take a little nap you know let's just take a quick nap we'll know, let's just take a quick nap. We'll be ready to go after that. Alice falls asleep and Malcolm stares at Alice's face a little bit while she sleeps.

Knowing he shouldn't, but he's like, I kind of want to get to know her face. I'm curious. So we have this passage. The little frown that lived between her eyebrows had vanished. It was a softer face altogether. Her mouth was relaxed, her whole expression complex and subtle. There was a sort of kindness in it, and a sort of lazy enjoyment. Those were the words he found to describe it.

A hint of mocking smile lay in the flesh around her eyes. Her lips, narrow, compressed while she was awake, were looser and fuller in sleep, and almost smiling like her sleeping eyes. Her skin, too, or what did ladies call it, her complexion, was fine and silky and in her cheeks was a faint flush, as if she was hot or as if she was blushing at a dream. It was too close. He felt he was doing wrong. He sat up and looked away. This is definitely an intense passage that Malcolm is kind of creeping on Alice, and he even knows he's being a creep, so he stops and he tends to Lyra, and then he strokes Lyra's forehead for a moment,

and he's like, maybe I should stroke Alice's cheeks. And he's like, no, no, no, I shouldn't do that. Definitely shouldn't. So I'm glad he learned from that. He goes and he watches the water, he doesn't feel sleepy but he keeps thinking about kissing Alice now. It's a thought that just keeps coming to his head and he decides to busy himself

instead. Stick with me here now with this. Is this a test of Malcolm's innocence? Considering the notion of purgatory is to challenge a sinner with a virtue, that's the opposite. Could the opposite be in case for Malcolm and that it's taking a virtue and challenging him with a virtue that's the opposite could the opposite be in case for malcolm and that it's taking a virtue and challenging him with a sin and what were the implications of this visit on

laura and the eve prophecy going forward that's an interesting thought i don't know like you said is it a test of his virtue but at the same time the original trilogy tells us sinning is a good thing right sin is great it feels awesome but don't do this malcolm don't do that no no maybe when she's awake ask her if yeah holy jesus you're 11 jesus all right yeah it's a and it is like part of it seems like part of his sexual awakening in the underworld right in that purgatory like you're saying like he's 11 and he wants to hump everything and this is just dawning on him uh and i don't know it's very purgatory-esque it's very underworld-esque i i don't know if either of you know the story of tam lin warren you might it's been adapted to many stories yeah uh roddy mcdowell has a film right that's on it

and there's prose and so many songs anais mitchell actually did a duet with jefferson hammer on it it's a really good song i linked it so you're gonna have to check it out but it's a scottish fairy tradition basically that tamlin collects maidens virginities from the forest of carterhoe and basically pulls them in while they pick flowers and being like how dare you pick flowers in my forest and usually they fall for it right it's not his forest but usually they fall for it and they fuck him one day someone outsmarts him a maiden named janet and she's like my father owns this whole forest and has given it to me so i can pick flowers wherever i want unfortunately she doesn't really outsmart him

because she gets knocked up with his kid and she doesn't want to get rid of it because she thinks it's an elven child. And in most versions, she ends up returning to the forest to have another encounter with Tamlin where he reveals he's secretly a mortal who was captured by the Queen of Fairies and he reveals an elaborate plan to save him from being sacrificed that night. in that story she and tamlin win she gets her knight and they escape the fairy queen and all is well right uh but there is a tax to pay this is called the tamed the type the seven-year king basically and the fey make us think that in some texts they kind of assume that the fae draw their power from nature. But there's a lot more that suggests something even darker with that underworld imagery,

a more complicated explanation pinpointing the source to the underworld, that the fae strike a deal with the lord of the underworld or are in service and dominion to them. In order for them to have control of their world and dominion over their fairy world they must make a sacrifice every seven years usually in the form of a mortal sacrifice someone given to the underworld and finding and kidnapping the most heroic and talented person the fairies can find so it makes me wonder with all of this kind of imagery of innocence and experience that we know that he likes to play with here pullman uh was lyra the baby supposed to be a seven-year queen as a source of magic maybe in almost all these versions of tamlin the almost sacrifice takes

place around halloween around samane and it's interesting when you consider the implication of like later in the stories we hear about jackie lanterns in the secret commonwealth and it just feels really significant especially with irish mythology that 11th century and irish work samane was tax time people would need to deliver two-thirds of their income and children to the femorians the giant kin deformed by an ancient curse so the the Fae would ride at harvest time to collect their taxes in the Underworld. As Malcolm is sitting here being weird and kind of like this feverish feeling coming over him

of sitting here with these two ladies hanging out in this Underworld land and as things have changed, right, society has changed, it makes me feel like maybe they're being coaxed into this magic and being drawn into it for a reason yeah there's definitely a lot in that there are a couple of digressive type things i would like to point out based on what you're saying particularly

around so on which is the our um the gaelic name for the month of october um which halloween falls at the end of coincidentally and also it would be the time of harvest it would summon the beginning of the end of autumn heading towards the beginning of winter where harvest would be collected and gathered in so

a lot of that would tie in traditionally what people would do around that time of the year would tie in with the story that you've got there i particularly take with the halloween reference and and how it tied the time of the year the calendar type reference and how it ties in and how in how pullman really is exploring this mythology i mean so deeply in these two chapters it's so different to i mean the preceding chapters that you covered last time

are very, very much Malcolm in his Earth world kind of thing. But this is very, it's three very out there chapters, but absolutely amazing that the work that he's put into it and the detail, the quality of the writing,

it's really some beautiful stuff, even if there are some uncomfortable themes that he's exploring and there's certainly he's exposing some of his own weaknesses, but it's hard to overlook just how good some of this stuff is

and how much work he's put into making it so good. So a little clap for Mr. Pullman. Well done. Beautiful stuff. It does almost seem like this could be like a harvest feast in the underworld. That's kind of also how it feels. Maybe it's a harvest ballroom party.

You know, it feels like the bounty that comes at harvest time. There's so much bounty. Harvest moon. It's interesting that they don't decide, what if we just use Bonneville? He's immortal. He's right there. He's already in there. It's an that they don't decide, what if we just use Bonneville? He's immortal. He's right there.

He's already in there. It's an easy sacrifice. It is. Leave Malcolm alone. Get a job. No more jobs. No more jobs. No more jobs for people.

No, Malcolm definitely is not getting a job. He's unemployable. Not with me. As we're thinking of like, well, what if we just didn't stay on this island, right? Malcolm realizes that there is an inch of water in La Belle Sauvage and that there's a crack in the hull. Asta helps examine it in cat form. They realize that they need canvas glue and a plank to fix it.

Asta points out that they can use the rucksack's canvas to stem the gap and that there's a tree or two with some large golden resin gashes that they can gather some resin from and use to glue it all up and he thinks that well actually the resin's like enough to waterproof the whole thing um and not use the canvas he's like you know what whatever better safe than sorry because that's what mr tap house would do oh i really like that he thinks about mr taphouse you know we don't know what the fuck is up with him right now i hope he's at home chilling but the whole every single time he'd go into the priory and he wasn't there he'd be like nope not here not here i was getting worried so i hope he's all right i'm really starting to worry about that guy but this is really

bittersweet right uh he's doing something that tap has to be proud of especially because he taught him these very earth-minded skills right that has survived him from the fairy queen but also he's using bon vie's canvas to stem it which kind of makes bon vie a part of labelle sauvage whether malcolm wants him to be or not and later as we see this happens for another character in the journey that has to bear the scar of bone v in their life so i don't know i think it's kind of a weird bittersweet thing that you're inserting this evil horrible person into your boat that you're going to have to kill uh labelle sauvage is malcolm's world right besides

karate and lyra and spying I guess so for Bone V to be a shard stuck in their plot it's interesting it is I like him not just how Malcolm learns things but how he remembers where he learns them from and how

that means something to him so Mr. Taphouse is really his influence stays with Malcolm and that's one of Malcolm's really nice qualities it's a shame what happens later when he grows up yeah he's such a nice boy at this day he really is

he's got some flaws here but he's such a nice boy who doesn't he is a nice boy and I mean I don't know like the thing about Bonneville being part of the legacy of La Belle Sauvage, it's interesting that he's part of it. But a lot of the boat's legacy as well, right, is Lord Asriel.

So it's those two men. That's an interesting name, conflict, especially considering when we were talking earlier about Marissa and their crossover and their potential influence on horror yeah maybe especially they're both similar you know they're they're similar characters and what they want it's just bone v went off the deep end a lot sooner yep whereas azrael just went off the deep end a lot heavier ultimately he did no I mean he just didn't know when to stop

literally went off the deep end literally went off the deep end the deepest events fuck the end well regarding the void yes

well Malcolm begins to saw up a canvas Well, read the void. Regarding the void, yes. Well, Malcolm begins to saw the canvas with his knife and is surprised at just how resilient the canvas is. And Asta flies to his shoulder and tells him to be quick. Something feels off, but she can't quite put it into words. Malcolm finishes cutting the canvas and Asta turns into a hawk, getting to the tree first. Malcolm climbs up to get the resin and looks back at the gorgeous house and lawn again from the tree, thinking that next time, that he is going to come back here someday with happy companions and feel at ease with life and death. He peers the other way, across the river, and finally sees the other bank. Desolation. It was a wilderness of broken buildings, rubble, burnt houses, shanties, and puddles of filthy toxic chemical waste where children

with swords on their arms throw stones at a dog tied to a post. Reminds me a little bit of the scene in Chittagatse. And then Malcolm cries out before he can help himself. And Asta does as well because Bonneville is here on the terrace.

Dun dun dun. I think it's interesting the way he uses the particular word terrace here. The seven levels of purgatory are also called terraces and they correspond with the seven deadly sins. That's pride, envy,

wrath, slot, avarice, gluttony and lust. of which Bonville is probably guilty of. The punishments in each terrace aim to teach sinners in the terrace the opposing virtue. Just found that interesting particular word. I think that's gotta be intentional for sure

that's a great catch. This is definitely feels like hell like oh fuck i thought we killed this guy and that looking across the river and finally being able to see out of the fog and that's what exists beyond the fog and that so is that another world then or is that literally just down the street I kind of feel like it's another world. Yeah. It feels that way.

Yeah. It's also interesting how he, Bon Vie, can see them, but no one else can. He directs everyone. Yeah, and it kind of makes me think about the whole third eye being open kind of thing, right? Your third eye being open, being able to see other worlds now that they have entered other worlds kind of like how lyra you know in entering other worlds in the subtle knife you have boreal for example who is kind of a great villain to bring up against uh bon vie in this that he also is you know going out there trying to get lyra trying to covet lyra and covet the alethiometer and he

sees other worlds and he's been in other worlds so he's kind of a villain that is her match right like he is kind of on her level on her match and now that malcolm has seen other worlds it's like bone v and him share that weird nemesis arch rival bond it's interesting to compare bone veal and boreal i kind of get an image of, I know Boreal will be into the lighthouse family. I think Bonneville will be more into the lightning seeds or something like that. Yeah, which makes me think that this

other world he's seeing, could it be our world, right, with the chemical waste? Yeah, probably. I mean, this is total Pullman shit, right? This is the most Pullman stuff in the book right here because we know how he is on the environment. He's very crossed with what has happened to the earth we live on. Yep.

That's his bag. The people out on the terrace stir, and someone is running towards another in a wheelchair. They try to get themselves out of the tree quickly, Asta and Malcolm, and the, and the people on the terrace are starting to look towards them. Suddenly, they're carrying Bonvi in a wheelchair down the steps of the terrace. This is horror movie shit. Once they get to the ground,

Malcolm and Asta start to lay the resin-soaked canvas. They put tacks in it, and Alice hurries over with Lyra. He directs her to open the toolbox and hand him a tack due to his sticky hands, and they get it done. They turn the boat over. Alice keeps a watch out. Malcolm suddenly finds himself gazing at her body in a very sexy way and is like, not now, puberty, and he goes back to sliding the boat in the water.

Yes, sliding the boat into the water yes sliding the boat into the water i get it there's not a lot of ways to slide the boat in the water but when it's aired in the same moment he's all like alice's slim body and her nice hips and her breasts wow slide the boat in the water all right all right pullman put it away i don't want to know why malcolm's getting these boners about alice right now i mean yeah i mean like as we've been saying this is it this is malcolm's sexual awakening i guess he's playing on the trope of like you know he sees her like with her makeover once yeah he's like yo that's it that's it for me um and and i don't know i guess it is this moment right because we've never really seen him

discuss girls before or really notice them in that way yeah but I suppose he only played with the boys maybe yeah that's the thing he only like played with the boys had no like friends who were girls so this is yeah this is his actual awakening

and I mean it happens you know I guess this is the age that that starts happening. You start being like, I'm noticing different things. My body is changing. Yeah, he's not at that point yet, but he will be soon enough. I mean, I don't know. All of a sudden in the last year, he started getting this fucking light coming out of his eyeballs. That's true.

That is his body changing. I mean, it's not for me but for some people maybe it is well they pack up right alice loads their belongings in the canoe pan buzzes as a bee around lyra and the crowd is growing larger she's like what's the plan malcolm they can't go up the waterfall so they're gonna have to check the other side of the water to get out they make moves to go and as look up, the crowd of people is moving toward them with the distant creepy HA! HA! HA! HA! echoing beyond them. Yes, very creepy.

They pass through trees, leaving the garden behind, and the lanterns fade from view. There's enough light for Malcolm to see what's ahead, though. A great pair of iron-bound doors, heavy with age, draped in moss and weeds, emerging from the stream like the gates of a lock, completely shutting off their escape. There was no

way out by water. I kind of wonder, as we start to leave this world, are the iron doors here a gateway between the fairy realm and Malcolm's usual world? Right, because the fairies often dislike iron. So is it like holding them in or meant to keep them out of that? Oh, yeah. What is it you guys in iron doors?

Right, iron and oak? Yeah, I don't know. What is it? Oh, that is good. And of course, we know like as we get there which will be in the next chapter that's father tam down there uh gonna let them through and save them because they have the princess of albion with them so it does seem that they are leaving that realm going back to the real world it does i kind of am i'm kind of thinking as well of the edmund spencer poem

we talked about earlier the fairy queen and then when i read it there was one particular passage that i thought was particularly appropriate for these chapters and it reads now strike your sails ye jolly mariners for we be coming to a quiet road and light this weary vessel of her load. Here she a while may make her safe abode, Till she repaired, have her tackle spent, And once supplied, And then again abroad on the long voyage Whereto she is bent.

Well may she spend, speed, And barely finish her intent. I think that's probably the two chapters kind of in a passage, isn't it? Oh, that is. It really is. I love the repairing probably the two chapters kind of in a passage isn't it oh that is it really is I love the uh the tackles yeah the wording's lovely I think that's like my favorite part about each of these end of the chapters because every chapter seems to end with them getting out of trouble or getting out of the situation and they go right back into La Belle Sauvage and

back on the water they go. To the next situation. Yeah, I think it's just such a great transition. And I love that it always anchors, no pun intended, back to LaBelle Sauvage. It's a fantastic connection between all these different things that we've been talking about. Truly very interesting. That does wrap up our reading of Resin. However, Warren, I know that you are aware that we have so much to talk about with the secret commonwealth so we're going to wrap up talking in our discussion about the secret

commonwealth where we spoil everything and anything about the secret commonwealth that reminds us of this chapter that we want to chat about so if you have not listened to the secret commonwealth thanks for listening please come back and listen with us next month when we hopefully finish the book, if not get very close to finishing the book, possibly with a special guest star. So keep an ear out for another guest, another guest on the canon, maybe next month for LaBelle Sauvage's end. And with that, let's bust on into our discussion. Elianaiana i think you get to listen in on this one i don't see anything wrong so here we go there's a lot that i wanted to talk about with olivier throughout the entire episode everything uh every point warren you kept bringing up with

bonvia i was like yeah and olivier i think olivier is going to be the big key to a lot of those plots, right? Like the reveal of what his dad, what vengeance he's getting for his dad to Lyra. I think he's probably going to end up giving us the answers we seek there. I'm curious about Olivier. Does Gerard know of his existence? Or, you know, is he alive at the time of Lebel Savage? Yeah, this kind of implies that he is like a parallel child, right? Similar age to Lyra.

How old is he? Well, he seems to be about her age. Yeah. So I'm guessing that that's part of the vengeance, right? Like Lyra's existence made him an orphan. It's kind of how it feels yeah i kind of get i can dig that i'm going to get the sense that in maybe he's going to pull him it's going to play on the notion of in of olivier having a kind of a misunderstanding or misconception

and only at the very end is he going to realize that everything that he's been chasing his lawyers and wrong it's such a well-worn trope but i think it's something pullman particularly could do very well well it's kind of an inverse right yeah it is it's the opposite of marisa and asriel who end up finally at the end overcoming their idiocy and they jump for lyra and And the opposite of what you realized again. Yeah, and actually Lyra still doesn't know that. Exactly, Lyra doesn't know. So neither of them know the

true manner of their parents' death. And they're just left with their illusions in the stories that other people tell them. It's very interesting, yeah. I am very interested for his role. Absolutely. I think he interested for his role. Absolutely. I think he'll, like, come to the good side is kind of what I think.

I think he's going to be, we've obviously related it to the great romantic relationship in media, Raylo, you know. It's the same thing as Raylo, as they seek each other through the alethiometer and touch their hands through it. But I do think that he's going to be not redeemed. It's not like he's really a bad kid. He just got caught up with the Magisterium. I mean, he's born into it. He's born into this role of vengeance in the Magisterium for his father, and they're able to manipulate him because he's so easily emotional through that.

And I kind of wonder if his plot is going to be joining Lyra and Malcolm in the Secret Commonwealth to try to fix everything once he learns what his dad was doing I think as well there's kind of an element of tempestuousness to Olivia if you kind of look at his story I mean Delamere is kind of

is controlling him but he has no compunction whatsoever about I'm off to find Pan and I will I'll take in the eletiometer and I'll use the new Pan and I will I'll take in the aletiometer and I'll use the new method and even though he's told not to yeah you know he's I don't care what you tell me I'm going to do what I want anyway which is very Kylo Ren yeah yeah it is it's kind of emo and stuff but it's very typical of I suppose a confused and a boy of his age dealing with that kind of confusion and

maybe dealing with illusions that might not necessarily be true with regards to his father. Having so many questions that aren't answered or can't be answered. And when he learns that the magisterium was lying to him, too, you know,

they're laying it on thick because he's easily manipulated. I mean, he's easily manipulated uh i mean he's a puppet he's being used as a magisterium puppet so that that's a big part too that's gonna be a big turning point i think for olivier i think he's gonna want to like fuck off from the magisterium very hard once he realizes the truth of the scenario going on and also what's at stake right because lyra's journey and the roses and all these different things that crop up through the story um they they seem to like you know they're the hints at the beginning of the story before you get into the truly political stuff that's going on in the all-out

war that's really happening absolutely and i can't help but think as well that Malcolm's going to play a big part in that transition for Olivier. I think he already is. The seeds are sown. The seeds are sown. I'm curious to see how Pullman does pull this together. Wow, you and me both. pull this together in the end because obviously yeah but i mean i mean obviously i buy into the notion you have that we might see someone from the original trilogy reappear towards the end and but how exactly he's going to do it and um how not just how he's going to do it but how it's

going to be written and um just given the connection that we all have for the original trilogy for that to happen. Well, that's an interesting thought too of the how, right? And some of these elements and these magical elements that have been brought into the story. So in this chapter earlier, when we get to the second beautiful, rich mansion-y house, let's go back to those fountains for a second. Speaking of these secret Commonwealth elements, Let's go back to those fountains for a second. Speaking of these secret commonwealth elements.

Past a fountain with blue water, and then something with water that sparkled, and a third that sprayed up not water, but something like cologne. Roses? Is that rose oil? Was that third fountain spraying rose perfume? Sounds expensive. I know. Well, listen, think about her girlfriend at school with her family's rose company. I mean, this is what they provided Eliana.

The fairies called them and they were like, we're going to need seven more gallons stat today. That is not sustainable. Not sustainable at all. I really think that that cologne, especially because the beds of flowers around, I'm telling you, it was rose oil cologne. It was rose cologne. There's no way. It's got to be. I mean, it's like the Fountain of Youth also, it seems, right?

It's got that kind of Fountain of Youth, Fountain of Immortality kind of thing going on, Tuck Everlasting style this weird place where the people are weird and nobody hears them or sees them and they just move around gracefully doing whatever a frozen world kind of thought flowing in my mind as well it might be kind of that we've covered the two chapters that we've covered as well

but there's a story as well might be worth looking up afterwards of a Celtic story of the children of Lear and that kind of strikes me as a potential bittersweet type ending that Pullman could lean into

following on the kind of themes that you're talking about and the kind of stuff that we've been talking about earlier too and literally it just strikes me it's not something that I've pondered as we prepared for this that's interesting i didn't think about that ever in terms of the lore and i do think it would be very bittersweet and i do think that i think there's got to be some sort of death uh i know that's dark but like we're in this mature series now we're we're seeing death

in this book we're seeing uh assault and death in this book like crazy and in the next book obviously it gets very dark and i just feel like we might see one of our beloveds malcolm possibly please but please i'm telling you i think he's gotta. There's no way to do this story right if he doesn't. Just kill him. That's so mean. You know this is going to upset Pete, Jay. You know Pete's going to be upset with this because he loves Malcolm. Well, he's going to have to get over it. He's got to go.

He's got to go. He's had his time. He had his story. He's really busting an odd mind. But no, I do think he's significant in all of this and i think his spangled ring and i think rose oil and malcolm's spangled eye ring i think that has to come together i think there's no other way malcolm can't read the alethiometer he doesn't even really try right he doesn't want to it's not for him he doesn't think it's for him in that aspect he tries

to give it away he tries to get rid of it and then it goes to lyra because it is for lyra as we learn uh the destiny of that alethiometer was meant for lyra she knows how to read it as soon as she can but that spangled ring has to lead to something and especially with what we discussed today of the fog revealing another world beyond and possibly another world beyond the other area and possibly that whole waiting room idea in the middle of a bunch of worlds, a nexus between them,

neither living nor dead, right? Between life and death, between dreams. Yeah. Malcolm's got to do something. I mean... He does. I mean... It's got to be glorious,

but it's got to be an end, I think. Yeah. I think he's got to do something with his eyeball thing. Maybe he's going to be able to see other worlds with it. Maybe his spangled ring is what is letting him see other worlds. His second sight. Yeah, that's interesting too, yeah. For the men's. Yeah, yeah.

That's interesting. I'm curious as well about what we're talking about. Do we think Delamere knows Bonville's father's secrets? Do you think he was involved with Mrs. Coulter? He was Delamere's sister in his experimental work, but do we think Pullman would explore more on that link or reveal

anything to us? I find that family so interesting, right? So we know they share the mother. We know that the mom that we meet that's the mom but we also know that marisa's maiden name from other novellas is van z marisa van z olman himself has confirmed that so that to me makes me think they're half siblings right or step siblings uh she had a different father than Delamere. So, I'm wondering if there's something there to be looked at

with some of those aspects of changelings and duplicates. We know that the show certainly had some implications, right? They implied maybe she's a witch. Or that they basically, at least as an analog, as an allegory, they joined together the witch's plot and talking about severing

with Marisa, and they wanted us to kind of think about that. As we discussed during our Serpentine episode together the witch's plot and talking about severing with marisa and they wanted us to kind of think about that as we discussed during our serpentine episode the witch's journey to sever from their demons that they must take or they live a half-life certainly seems significant to the journey that lyra is taking to find herself again in the secret commonwealth so it makes me wonder what the princess uh and what Delamere in growing up in that environment. Obviously, it was toxic. Obviously, obviously, we see their relationship was not great and that she was pretty, pretty fucked up and toxic towards Marisa. So did she make Marisa take that journey? Maybe Delamere has to know something about the experimental work, but obviously he also happens to not have a lot of knowledge

because he wouldn't need Olivier Bonvy if he did. That's true, and also his relationship with his mother seems very strained and very strange. Yeah. To the extent where you wonder why he'd have one, if that's how he feels. That's true. I would have been like fuck you at this point

the sense I got with regards to Mrs Coulter and her link to being potentially a witch the sense I very much got reading passages in the secret commonwealth was that possibly their mother was a witch and I kind of felt that was a possibility.

And that was the link. Yeah, because the witch oil in their blood. There is witch oil in that blood, for sure. Absolutely. And if that's the case, then it's in Delamere's blood as well. How does that work? If it's maternal, it has to be, yeah. Unless maybe their dad was a witch.

Or like, of the witches. You know what I mean? There's all kinds of things he could play with, though. I mean, he could play with the concept of Delamere and not being Delamere and Marissa maybe sharing a father. Yeah. Or not sharing a mother. Maybe in that sense,

there might be something in that. And there might be something to that and there might be something to explore in that in terms of this mysterious father i only say that because of the interesting things that have come up with both serpentine his dark materials series two with lancelius there's a lot from lancelius that i feel like he's laying on pretty thickly as far as like lancelius grew up in the lakes and he grew up kind of as you know a witch's child and grew up basically as a witch and the different things going on and that kind of scope he's providing us and i'm just very curious

at how that's going to develop because pullman released serpentine last year and he's working on the book of dust three so that means that these thoughts have to be something he's playing with that he wants to work with in that book and i think as well unlike the other series that you're covering i think pullman has always had i think he's always had the nuts and bolts to hand he always he kind of knows what he's doing and where he's going there's no gardening here and a little bit there's a little bit where he kind of knows what he's doing and where he's going there's no gardening here a little bit, there's a little bit where he kind of lets things kind of go but he's much more precise and his story is much more formed

before he even sits down to write it yeah so it's kind of as a reader it makes it easier to speculate where he might be going because of that where George is very much choose your

own adventure you know you could do this this could happen this could happen that could happen and we speculate all the things that could happen and then he laughs and says well actually this happened and pullman is much more um less elaborate let's put it like that very precise yes very very very precise and that has very much has its strengths and it's very much evident

in certainly in the original trilogy and it is evident in this series though even though there are elements of it

that are uncomfortable that doesn't mean that it's not a good story or that he's not telling it well yeah I'm wondering as well I know I kind of

mentioned it earlier about Gerard and my suspicions that he might have attacked or raped Marisa, that he might think Lyra is his child. Or that somehow he might have understood the significance of Lyra, that something's drawing him to wanting this child and where that's coming from. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. I think there's an aspect of, as Chloe said in previous episodes, maybe it's revenge. Maybe also understanding her significance now that I've got that tinfoil wheel spinning know anything and he lies to him yeah well he doesn't but he lies to malcolm about the russikov field right and he's like you don't know about it but i think that knowing what we know that he lied about that to malcolm he lied purposefully and

malcolm called him out on the carpet about it and said something very relevant to the russikov particles and i think that might have scared him a little or shaken him a little right that's why he lied immediately like no that's wrong and i'm not going to tell why would i tell a kid anyways uh but that's a little scary and obviously we know the russikov particles and the russikov field are literally fundamentally like going to be a part of whatever happens as the whole entire ultimate ending of the series it's going to have some sort of answer about dust that pullman wants to pull off i think and it's an advanced mature theorizing that no 11 year old boy should be no 11 year old stocky pudgy ginger

boy should be able to just figure out like that right you don't just google russikov particles yeah he's earth-minded you don't just google that shit and that took him off guard and i think that because the russikov field is like something so fundamental to the answer of whatever's going to happen at the end or dust right it's the answer of why dust does what it does uh i think that feels so significant in this and significant for whatever the hell boneby's problem is right like the research has to have been set up with marisa and with other people the government owning his research for example is a big thing it reads like someone gone rogue or an agent gone rogue for sure because he's hannah ralph but evil yeah yeah yeah I get you he's like her counterpart

absolutely I think there's another element with it as well that's kind of a common theme in stories like this of him the father not achieving the goal quite achieving the goals and the son coming along and following in the footsteps and potentially outdoing him like Luke Skywalker and Darth Vader or

just want to leave straight to mind and I wonder is is that something he's going to explore through Olivier and possibly in a Star Wars kind of thing you know have a kind of moment at the end where he turns to the good side or the light side you know sees the wrong of his ways yeah and I do hope that he's facing that idea of like to go back to Star Wars and kind of the themes that they tried to execute in

the last movie they made The Last Jedi it's too bad they never made another movie nope they never made another movie after The Last Jedi for me anyway I loved it but I really like The Last Jedi The Last Jedi is a great movie and if you, anyway. I loved it. I really liked The Last Jedi. The Last Jedi is a great movie, and if you want to fight me about it, do it. I dare you.

Better come through me first. I dare you. I want to see it happen. The thing is that, obviously, corporate executive suits ruin everything. We know this from The Golden Compass, you guys. We don't have to go into it. But we have a whole hour and a half on that one. But like, the last Jedi thematically was that institutions are buried with so much prejudice. They are embedded with it.

It is in its veins. You can't take that out of the institution. And it's time for the Jedi to die because the Jedi are not necessarily good. We see that the Jedi have an issue with balancing power and balancing the light and the dark force and we see where sometimes the jedi and the sith are the same people uh and i do hope that's something that he's hoping to come to the middle of because it does seem very much like olivier is the evil sith lord kid brat kid like kylo ren style that has the evil delamere over him, puppeting him.

And on the other side you have against the CCD Oakley Street but it's also obvious from what we've seen with Lord Chancellor Nugent as we mentioned earlier that this isn't the right way either always. They don't always have the right ways and they choose shortcuts that harm people.

And then you have in between it the people the secret commonwealth of the people laying in between it yeah and i think i mean i don't know as much about what's going on with olivier's story but the deafness with which he did handle marisa's story in the original trilogy right okay and and the way that he threaded that ambiguity of her wavering between good and evil i mean in some ways she's kind of the ultimate evil she she does the worst things i would say she's killing children systematically and constantly yeah kidnapping then then experimenting upon them letting them die yeah very often just for personal

career ambition uh and and the way that he's able to sort of offer her that humanity and a path towards goodness sort of i think that it bodes well for whatever's going on with potentially oliv Olivier's story. Yeah, that's a really good point of that balance in what he explores in Marisa. I think that does significantly show that some of these characters... He's capable of it. Yeah, and I think Olivier is being given a chance for that in the story. There isn't really, to be fair to you, Eliana, there isn't a lot of story. So do not worry on that one.

I saw, like, one sexy scene, but I haven't gotten to the rest of it. That was cute! That's a lot of speculation, in fairness. Yeah, I mean, he just is the other side, right? Like, Lyra is the alethiometer reader right now on the good side. He's the alethiometer

reader for the bad side. Star-Crossed Lover. Malcolm's the middleethiometer reader for the bad side uh starcrossed love is the middle yeah malcolm's something malcolm in the middle maybe who knows i kind of did like that show i did like that show oh i love malcolm in the middle that one's fun yeah oh it has its moments i definitely want this last book to come out i think it's gonna come out i don't think we'll have a 10 year wait you say that I know I was very excited this week on a digression to hear

Joe Arbogromby's finale of his latest series is coming very very soon which makes me happy that's two trilogies I've read of his will have waited for when's winter but however do we have any thoughts on how pullman handles the reveal of alice's rape particularly with regards to some of what's in

store for lawyer in the secret commonwealth i do think that there's a lot in this chapter that i these last two chapters that i don't like about the way that Pullman writes I don't like the way he uses his female characters as I've alluded to he does seem to use them as vehicles for plot devices like assault not events happening that

matter to the characters but you know for example later on it becomes a plot point of Malcolm is a good person for saving Alice. Not Alice underwent something that completely hurt her, but she was able to rebuild herself as a strong woman after. It doesn't really explore that. So how do you feel about how Pullman writes Alice in these last two chapters, Warren? I think Pullman has written some fantastic characters

and Alice is right up there. And one of the absolute sins so far in this trilogy is how little credit he really has given her and how she's never really at the forefront. It's Malcolm that rescues Lyra. Malcolm is always the hero and Alice is the willing accomplice and it's a constant role and

he never challenges it, he never tries to do it differently and even in The Secret Commonwealth the reveal of who Mrs. Lonsworth is there's so much more he could have done with that character. It's frustrating. I think that's the word, what he does with her.

Or more what he doesn't do with her, because there's so much potential to kind of, particularly in the world we're living in. Don't kid yourself that Pullman isn't reading the papers and isn't aware of kind of the direction the world is going in. But he just doesn't seem to be fully on board with the idea that a girl like Alice can be strong, independent, and can fight for what's right and make a difference.

And apparently it's just Malcolm that that can do that which is sad yeah something specifically that's really bothering me in this chapter is that so alice is presented to us as a 15 year old caretaker right uh she's 16 in the u.s story 15 in the uk story and she is a caretaker she works she is an adult young woman who works and takes money home to her mother to help pay the bills she works two jobs we see her making ends meet by working at the priory and working at the trout uh she is shown as especially through malcolm's eyes as being a little bit forlorn and stubborn a little sullen uh probably exhausted right she's doing physical labor most of her day to pay for her family to live uh so i'm very frustrated because she is an actual young woman in the workforce and he infant he basically infantilizes her so much

that she asks malcolm at least five times in these two chapters what they're going to do next and it really strikes me as probably I don't know maybe the biggest suspension of disbelief I have in this whole story like I can accept fairy islands golden pear trees uh salmon on the tray and people seeing through you I can accept that shit but it just doesn't make sense to me that a 15 16 year old young woman who is an adult caretaker in the workforce two jobs has to look to an 11 year old for advice and for direction throughout this story as somebody who's been a 16 year old young woman with a job or a 15-year-old woman with a job, I wouldn't be asking an 11-year-old for how to live my fucking life or what to do next. Some scenarios it warrants it, but it was like five to six times at least in these chapters.

Yeah, it was too many. It's very prevalent, yeah. So the audio isn't picking up the noise of my head, nodding along to every word you're saying, Chloe. I thought you were always picking up the noise of my head nodding along to every word you're saying, Chloe. It's weird. Yeah. It is, particularly when you point it out in that way, it's very, how would I say it?

It's very remiss at the least of all. And I think it betrays a type of inbred misogyny. I genuinely don't think he is actively misogynistic but i think that it's very passive but it's very when it's evident it's very evident and the irony is i mean we're talking about this now i can very well believe that he just does not see that and that's very frustrating as a reader and I could well understand it it definitely

feels like it is a limitation of him and of his vision and his scope that he does not see why that would be a problem or understand why that could look problematic so it's something interesting to me it just doesn't

vibe with the entire character who doesn't need guidance usually i guess i mean i think as you said right he's not he it's something where he doesn't realize that implicit like misogyny right he hasn't interrogated that within himself and his writing because he set out to write his dark materials in response to what he felt was the very explicit misogyny of the chronicles of narnia he wanted strong a strong girl character strong women characters right and we see in lyra someone who is able to make those decisions and that people listen to in some ways uh as a even though she's 11 years old but it's just strange that he has alice do this and i guess part of the issue is that framing as you said like the framing of the story it's all so built around malcolm and it's the limitations of that and and in the writing because all of it is in service very much to Malcolm's story and his progression and therefore everything else

acts within that including Alice's character and story rather than it serving whatever Alice's character is it ends up being inconsistent because it is in service to Malcolm's plot yes yeah he's just so caught up in telling Malcolm's

story he neglects everyone else doesn't he because we see he's capable of doing it He's just so caught up in telling Malcolm's story he neglects everyone else, doesn't he? Mm-hmm. Because we see he's capable of doing it, but... I mean, he's done it before with a man. Oh. Shit. Sorry, I said the quiet thing loud. I mean, he's done it before with Lyra, right? He's done it...

Well, no, with Will. I mean, with making Will matter against Lyra and making us care about Will's plot, making us invest. That's what I'm saying. He did it fine with Will. He's done a good one. I mean, like, with making Will matter against Lyra and making us care about Will's plot, making us invest. And so I'm saying, he did it fine with Will. We know everything about Will's childhood, you know, that he had. And now we have such an expanded view from the show. God bless them.

But, like, we knew so much more about Will's childhood. Somebody who we don't even meet until the second story. And Alice, who has spent every waking moment in Malcolm's eyesight since the Priory, right? Since that moment when all hell broke loose. We barely scratched the surface. And she's even in the original trilogy as well. Yes. Yep.

She came first, actually. Yeah. And the whole Secret Commonwealth he just neglects. She goes to jail. That's the best way to get her off the page. You think he's going to leave? Oh, don't leave it like that, Foreman, please.

I don't think he will, though. I think he has. We have to get a glorious scene of Alice breaking out or something. There better be. If he, I will forgive him. I will forgive you Phil if you do that if you give us some great glorious Alice time Alice breaking out

Alice busting out and leading a fucking rebellion revolution out of there to go to Lyra or something yeah exactly we need to go to Pullman's twitter and tell him to watch the great escape as he's preparing to rush the next one just watch the great Escape as he's preparing to write the next book. Just watch the Great Escape.

Yeah. Picture Alice digging that tunnel. That's going to be interesting. I really hope we free Alice. Free Alice Lonsdale please. Yes. Free her. Free the Lonsdale one. Well,

I think that's about it for La Belle Sauvage. I think we covered it all that was a pretty big dusty discussion Warren thank you so much again for joining us for these chapters for chapter 21 and chapter 22 please Warren let everyone know where they can find

you on Twitter or online they can find me on Twitter as TheHedgeKnight online I spend a lot of time in the Girls Gone Canon Discord, having discourse. So any other patrons who want to jump along in there, we have a lot of fun in there. Brunches, happy hours, all that kind of stuff. Yeah, that's me. I'm pretty low-key, really. Hey, well, it was a pleasure to have you on.

And honestly, we couldn't have navigated the lore without you thank you very much for the opportunity it's very much appreciated we really couldn't have well everyone thank you so much for joining us for this month's La Belle Sauvage episode and thank you again to Warren for joining us

if you have any thoughts that you would like to share with us about this episode or about his dark materials or la belle sauvage you can find us on social media on twitter at girls gone canon c-a-n-o-n shoot us a tweet or whatever or you can send us an email at girlsgonecanon at gmail.com yes and if you have not, make sure to subscribe to us on a podcast platform near you. If you stream us, check us out on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play, Amazon, Audible, iHeartRadio, Acast, Stitcher, you name it. We're on there. Give us a Google. We'll show up.

And of course, as we said up top, we do have a Patreon. and of course as we said up top we do have a patreon and this month's patreon episode is going to be about the his dark materials television show in which we try to figure out what was in the contents of the bottle episode about lord asriel yes we will seek the episode out we will find it and we will have an outline for you I can't wait I wish we could have seen it same you can see it in our in our imaginations yeah maybe with the new way of reading the alethiometer

wow as always I have been another one of your hosts Chloe and I have been one of your hosts Eliana thanks so much for tuning in