Girls Gotta Eat - Anxiety Disorderville, Population Many Motherf*ckers feat. Kelsey Darragh

Episode Date: February 22, 2021

If there's one person who can speak on anxiety, depression, and panic with such humor, insight, and personal experience, it's Kelsey Darragh. We're so glad she joined us to discuss her mental health journey from therapy to misdiagnoses to meds to social situations to panic attacks. She shares what has worked for her, how to manage anxiety in a relationship (when you're the person with it or the partner trying to help), why and how she quit drinking, and more. And before Kelsey joins us, we're unpacking why guys turn down booty calls and/or friends with benefits situations. Enjoy! Follow Kelsey on Instagram @KelseyDarragh and check out her book Don't F*cking Panic. Follow us @GirlsGottaEatPodcast, Ashley @AshHess, and Rayna @Rayna.Greenberg. Check our website for merchandise and show dates. Thank you to our partners this week: Calm: Get 40% off a premium subscription at calm.com/gge. Rory: Go to hellorory.com/gge to try the nightly defense for just $5. Candid: Go to candidco.com/gge + code GGE for your risk-free starter kit and $75 off. Earnest: Get a $100 bonus at earnest.com/gge. Terms and conditions apply. Visit earnest.com/licenses. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I say this with such adamant confidence that your relationship will never be as successful as it could be if you are not willing to talk about your own mental health. Welcome back to another episode of Girls Gotti E! Welcome back. We made it. We made it. So we'd like to inform you guys. This is going to be our last episode. This is over. We had a three year goal. We had a three year plan. Who did to do anything longer than three years? We did that. We're the same person for three years. Last episode alert. I got to tell you, I was, I was opening up my photos to read this email to you that I screenchot. And, like, right in the front is this dick pick that I got recently.

And it's in my phone twice. Why not you're saving the same dick pick twice? It was in my phone twice when you were air dropping me photos from something and you just included those. I hate you. I hate when you do that shit. And then it says, accept, and that's the first one. So I have to hit accept to get the other ones. That is an agree.

Get it out of here. Listen, we're going to talk. about it in a couple weeks. I don't want to like just in case this doesn't come to fruition. We have a guest. We are so excited about coming up. Okay, here's my hint. I have watched, I have spent hundreds of days in hotels with him. Everybody knows on television. Everybody knows now. That's okay. We've talked about that we watch that show. Well, actually, you guys don't know now. Two shows. We watch a lot of shows. We watch Catfish and CSI. Great. It could be Detective Stabler. Somebody from CSI or me from Catfish.

I don't know. I don't know. I'm not going to say it. I'm not going to say it. I'm so excited. I feel like I just like I'm just like all my dreams are coming to fruition. We have great episodes coming up for you guys. We are so excited about. And today is there's no exception. We have Kelsey Dara. She's phenomenal. We talk about anxiety. Panic disorders. I'm dating with those things. We're really excited. I love her so much. We already recorded this a couple days ago. And I like we got off the Zoom with her and I missed her immediately. I was like Kelsey come back. And then she followed me back on Instagram. And I think we're going to want her podcast. Yeah, I mentioned it this morning. You did? Yeah. We're becoming friends. What? This is what I was every time I text somebody, Ashley's not a part of it. Like, sometimes I'll text are our agents and she'll be like, what are we talking to them about?

We have a group text. Why would you are the group? No one's on more group text with another person than I am with you. Yeah, I think there's like 50. Like when I start to type in your name, Ashley. Yeah. Okay, we got an email I wanted to tell you about that's so funny. Is this a merch email?

It's a merch email. It's a merch email. You guys know I don't like to glorify your stupid merch email. Because I feel like it encourages more people setting stupid merch emails. But this was funny. And we're C-Ced on the support just so we can manage the merch. Also keep buying the merch. So the title in all caps is Rayna and Ashley, don't hate me, please.

And I was like, what this fish do? So she says, hey with four wise. So she wants to fuck. You got to that joke before I did. I was like, okay, we just got a booty call? Four wise means like she wants to do anal. Okay. So let us do anal.

Yeah. Because do is hay with wise. anal and high with a bunch of eyes. That's just regular sex. I thought it was just the amount of eyes denotes how much dirty stuff you're going to do. Okay. Like how much you want to fuck. But hi with a bunch of eyes.

It's like I'm a good girl. Is it? No. But I'm just saying like you're trying to. Hey, he feels not here. Hey feels like let's fuck right now. Highie could be like, what are you doing? And then you like get there.

Yeah. Okay. Okay. Four wise. So I know it makes you guys kind of salty when people message you about orders and how stupid they are when they mess up bad. well hey I'm one of those people now I guess in all caps I was finally able to order

the new merch so pumped somehow Pay Hal fucked up my address so five ohs that's her B-hole all the O's are her B-O I'm looking to change that as that's my damn X's house and I will be so pissed if his new girl opens this and I fucking know she will

Anywho smiley face here's my new address okay that's amazing it made me love so hard can you imagine she accidentally sent the merchandise to her boyfriend, her ex-boyfriend, his new girlfriend. Okay. Back before you, when I, I mean, I had a merch business before with, like, pros being basic. I would, like, sell all this merch. Um, and the story was basically, I got, like, there was a hundred to two, it was like a hundred and fifty dollar merch order,

which is a lot of my, this is significant order. Oh, yeah, fine. You know, like, I, a lot, my income was coming, like, partly from the merch I was selling. Like, I was like, and I saw that it got, um, like, just, like, taken back out of my account, like, disputed. Like, the, the, the, the, the, the buyer disputed it with Amex, and Amex, like, took it back out or whatever, like, or whatever credit card. And I was like, what is going on here? And then I had, like, an email and bottom line, it appeared that this girl had bought a bunch of merch on her boyfriend's credit card. And then they, like, broke up and he, like, disputed the charge. It was, like, this fucked up thing. And, like, I was getting all these emails. I was, like, between them. And

I was just fucking pissed because I was like, you bought it. You got the merch. And now he gets to, to, like, dispute it because y'all broke up. And he was, like, messaging. And he was like, she stole my credit card. I was like, I don't care. But like, you guys need to give me that money. Like, I'm a small business. That was nuts. And I just like, I can't remember all the details.

I was, like, bombarded with, with emails from these two people. You're in the middle of a couple's fight. And I was like, that's unfair. The merch was delivered. You have it. And now you were taking money out of my pocket because you guys can keep your relationship together. Yes. He was like, she stole my car.

I'm like, I don't care. Get better control of your finances. Can you imagine emailing the gap and being like, listen, my boyfriend and I broke up. Like, no. People are like, I don't need this information. And I was so pissed at Amex. Also, what if that guy's new girlfriend is a Gigi fan? And he was like, I bought it for you.

Right. I know. I just love that. That's the reason is that was like going to go to her ex's house. I was like, say no more fan. Yeah, we got you. I like, she was like, I know you guys get really salty. No, but it's funny because we used to complain about this stuff and then didn't you like put in something wrong for some online order.

I did. One of us like really fucked up. And we were like, okay, well, it happens to everybody. I don't remember what it was. And then the other day, I was going, this was in the where they now episode, the bonus episode from a couple days ago. I was going through the where are they now emails, like in a folder. We put everything in folders so we can like easily sift through them and keep them organized.

And I saw an email from Grubhub. God, damn. I forgot how you forgot about this. And I saw an email from Grubhub for an order that you ordered. The receipt was coming to your personal email. I don't know how it was in our folder. Do you know how it got there? Okay.

First of all. Okay, Ashley and I share a bunch of email addresses. So, like, you know, we produced the show. We have a booking emails. We have a shopping email address. We have merchandise, all this stuff. So I spend all day shuffling emails from, like, one email to the next and putting it in folders. That is what my job at the podcast is organizing the emails.

And so I must have just accidentally sorted it into a different email address and into the Where Are They Now? But where Are They Now was Raina Greenberg sitting alone at home ordering four slices of artichoke pizza? That's where Raina Greenberg is. Yes, it was from artichoke. It was just so funny. Like, I was reading all these incredible, inspiring stories about where people are now. And then it's like Raina's Grubbub order.

That's for Raina. That's for Raina. And it wasn't like a nice salad order. It was four slices of pizza. Artichoke. Girl, that's a lot of food. I know. I get scared.

I get carried away. I like everything they make. Oh, yeah. Oh, my God. That was so funny. You guys sent us amazing emails. Thank you. We tried to get to all of them.

But all of your support over the last three is so wonderful. We appreciate your support for this. three-year episode. Yeah. Oh, yeah. The response was great. So we love you guys. Yeah. So we're going to do something in the intro today. We got one of your emails. We just want to unpack it. And then Ashley is like a recent story that we're going to talk about and just give some advice. And do we read it to you? Yeah. Are you talking to me or that was rhetorical to the listeners? No, go on. That's for everybody. Okay. It's very short, which we can't stress this enough. Keep them short. Brevity. I don't know what that word means.

Okay. The title is, what is wrong with men? Okay. That should be just the episode title for anything. The new podcast. That's a new podcast. Oh, yeah. Hi, ladies, we fan here. Help me, help me figure this stuff out. So when I can't figure out this guy, I figured you guys would be the best to ask. What kind of man turns down a friend with benefit situation? We started his friends who fuck, but he says he, quote unquote, has a lot of shit going on. So we should just be friends now. What? With a bunch of question, question marks, exclamation points. Is he human? What? kind of man ruins a good thing. What should I do? Thanks. So they were already friends with benefits. So they were already fucking. So it's like, I don't know, girl, do you think that was going to last forever? Like, those things end. They just, they end. Like, you don't just be friends who fuck forever. You know, like somebody starts dating somebody or somebody just gets

tired of it or somebody just like, I don't feel like doing this anymore. On both sides, whatever party. Like, that to me has an expiration date. This wasn't like, her trying to make a friend's benefit situation. It was trying to continue something they were already doing that, like, is something that is not going to last forever. Yeah. I mean, there can obviously be a thousand reasons. I think that our narrative about men is that they all just want to fuck every single person,

pussy's pussy. We've got to beat all the pussies. And like, maybe this guy's just like, I think this is right. It's course. And I'm not going to just like string this person along forever because like I like I like her as a person. But like maybe he's like, I feel like she caught feelings a little bit. I don't have feelings.

I'm not catching him. Or like, maybe he got feelings. and he's like, she doesn't want anything besides friends with benefits. Or maybe he caught feelings for somebody else. Maybe he's just like, okay, we did this. It was fun while lasted. And now I like met somebody on hinge or, you know, whatever. Like there's a million different reasons.

You could, you could ask him. Like, it's probably not that he just has a bunch of stuff going on. But also, I do know guys that are like really into sex and sex is, it becomes a distraction for them in their lives. And I've heard many guys that are like, I, it's affecting like my career, other relationships in my life and they like kind of put a pause on sex while they like focus on other things. So I don't know what it's going on his career, but that's definitely a thing and that I know that from having like so many guy friends that are very open with me. Like if he's like, okay,

like I've been fucking this girl and it's just kind of like I got sex on the brain. Like it's time for me to like buckle down at work or whatever. Like that could be a thing too where he really just has a lot going on. I don't know what's going on with his family. Somebody could have COVID. I mean, you never know what's going on. Like he could just be like this sex, this friends of benefits thing is just not working for me in my life right now. I do have a lot of other shit going on that I need to prioritize. You never know. You never know. And there's Also, like, I'm thinking of a really good guy friend of mine. He always has, like, three girls in the rotation that he's sleeping with.

And I think that, like, when one gets a little too serious, and he's like, I'm just not trying to, like, have anybody catch feelings for me at all because I do not want to commit to anybody at all whatsoever. I think he just hits the pause button, you know? Like, some people just, they're just done with experience, you know? You're totally right. There could be other friends of benefits. Yeah, other friends of benefits.

Somebody might have slipped into the top slot. And there's nothing wrong with you for being the kind of person that, like, is like, I want to keep fucking, what's the big deal? Like, there's nothing wrong with you that doesn't. mean you're not like attractive and fun and cool and smart. Like somebody can just be done with it. Not every guy needs to want to be in every pussy all the time. Yes.

And I don't know how close their friendship is. She didn't specify. But if this is her close friend and she wants to keep the friendship somehow, I'm not saying it's impossible. It's going to be a little bit difficult after they've just like been boning it up. But like it can be done. Like I think we've fucked friends, friends of ours before that we're close with now.

We talked about it before. I think she could have a conversation with him, but she can't lead with that attitude. So she can't lead with, you're not a real man if you don't want to fuck me anymore. What? Are you not human? Yeah. Are you human?

Yeah. So if she really wants to salvage the friendship, I think she can rein it in, realize that this is not working for him anymore. Respect that. And go to him with like, hey, like, obviously the friends with benefits things wasn't working anymore. I knew we have a lot going on. But I really would love to know, like, is there something else that you, I want

to be, I still want to maintain the friendship. Is there something else you just want to open up to me about? I'm here. I'm not judging. like I'm fine with this ending, but like I would like to maintain our friendship. If not today, then down the road. So like I just kind of want you to be like transparent with me. But like you have to be open and willing to hear the truth and kind of nix this like fuck

you attitude before you go there. I think that it's probably what's frustrating to her is this like this feedback of like, I just have a lot of stuff going on. It's like, well, you didn't have a lot stuff going on before when you were fucking me. And it's like I understand feeling like that's not enough of an answer for you. But like I have a situation with somebody that I was not. sleeping with it. It was somebody I mad who I was attracted to and I did want to sleep with. And I was like, what's the deal here? Like, we have so much fun. Like, we love flirting each other.

We're clearly attracted each other. And he was just like, because I really like our friendship and I want to be friends. I want to continue being friends. I'm not going to be in a serious relationship with you. I'm just not. And like, I'm so glad now in like retrospect that he said that. I didn't like it in a moment because it made me feel like, am I not good looking enough to fuck me? But like, it's not about that. We actually are really good friends. And I watch the way he is with other girls. And I don't want to get treated like that. And like, I feel like, oh my God, I dodged this bullet. And like, I get to this best friend in this person who I like have no weird sexual stuff with. And like, I'm like, thank God he stopped me from doing that. Yeah. I'm happy about it. Totally. And nothing can ever be

misconstrued now. Like if I'm flirting with him a little bit or I give him feedback about a girl. Like it's not because I'm jealous or anything like that. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. And then if you guys want, we did deep dive on this on an episode, probably in 2019 called Show You Fuck Your Friends. So should you fuck your friends, I think, 2019? Yeah, I don't think it was 2018. So this kind of does dovetail into like this story that I kind of wanted to share on the podcast just because it was like something dating related that you and I talked about. But this was a situation that happened to me not too long ago, probably more closer to the summer fall maybe. And this was with a guy that like I had dated casually and it didn't end badly. It just kind of like fizzled out. You know, COVID happened,

things like that. And we still would chat here and there. We did sort of reconnect and go on a date this summer, but like it's not somebody that I saw dating seriously. I know he felt the same way. So I was thinking that it would be like a good booty call situation. You know what I mean? Like I don't think either of us were going to catch those real feelings and we had like great sex, whatever. So I did try to booty call him one day with the best line. And I'll read that for you guys here. Okay, this is in October. This is like earlier in October. And I said, oh my God, I hate myself. Okay. I said, This is true. This is what,

this is what happened to me that day. I said, I just got sugared and a negative COVID test. What are you doing tonight with like this tongue out like winky emoji? Like the like, meh. Kind of a bit more clear. Sugared is a bikini wax,

whatever. He knew that. And, and I was like DTF. Like I was like, no, I could tell. The body's clean.

Like everything's healthy. Pussies like bear ready to go. And he wrote. ha ha this is the ultimate 2020 pickup line and I was like so uh what's the fuck okay so I made you laugh are you coming over are you bringing that takeover and I this and this is a guy that like you know he does work in comedy like he does that probably you know whatever well we'll get to it and I was like oh my gosh I felt rejected I was like I'm there's nothing else for me to do here like I'm I'm not going to be like hey I was serious so you know I didn't know if that was him just deflecting or whatever

And then the next day, he sent me in the morning, like the next morning, he sent me like a song that like we had heard on one of our dates, kind of like a song. This song made me, he wrote a song for me called, I've never want to fuck you again. No. He was like, this just came on my Spotify, made me think of you kind of thing. And I was like, what the fuck? No, I wrote rejecting a booty call, then following up with a song is an interesting move. And he goes, wait, that was a booty call. And he was like, I just thought it was a good joke, which it was.

And I go, like, no, I was not running a bit by you. Guys, this is like the third time we talked about this is just as funny. And then at that time, he was, he does kind of like works, does jobs with a guy friend of ours and a mutual friend of me and Raina's. And he said, I'm with him right now, our mutual friend. And he said to me, you're blowing it. And so he told him the story, which I fully know that this guy like is just kind of clueless. I knew that before.

Like, I don't know that he would have come over and fucked me that night, but I do actually believe that he didn't think I was serious. And he, that's what I think he even told our guy friend or our guy friend was like, dude, what the fuck are you doing? And I just like, emphasize the text, like, exclamation point. I was like, I'm done with this. Like, and I should have been done with it. You know what I mean?

Like, those things really don't work out perfectly. Like, maybe I would have caught feelings. Maybe he would have. You know what I mean? Like, it's not what you think. It just was like, I had not fuck somebody in a long time. I was COVID free. Just got my pussy waxed.

Like I was ready to go. but this reminds me, this is like kind of a two-part story, this reminds me of I'm reading John Berger's new book called Make Your Move, which is we had him on the show a couple weeks ago, and we talked about his new book. The book is incredible. I cannot recommend it enough. But there's this part in the beginning of the book that talks about how guys can be really

clueless and not understand when a woman is hitting on them. And guys were pulled and they answered the question, what's the most obvious hint from a girl you've missed? And all these guys shared their answers. We could do a deep dive on this. I think it's so funny. And it was just like all these guys honestly answered. This one said,

This guy said, I had a girl asked me once if I wanted to sleep with her. It was nearly a year later that it occurred to me that she might have been serious. Oh my God. This one guy, the girl said her, want to share a taxi back to my place? And then the guy goes, sure, I can drop you off, then go home myself. He said, I woke up in the middle of that night and knew exactly what I had done. Do you have those moments you, like, shoot up out of bed in the middle night. You're like, that's what that meant.

Yeah. So I think that this guy, we hadn't hung out in a while. Like, I think that he just didn't think I actually wanted to like fuck him that night. I think that's like a thing that. And he's a good guy. He's just a good guy. He's kind of clueless. I would always have to kind of like be really direct with him.

And so I just say that to be like sometimes it's just they really don't understand. You have to spell it out. But bottom line is what happened later with this whole story was maybe like a couple weeks after that. We were at your place. I was at your house. You had a couple people over and that friend was there, that mutual friend. And it came up.

That whole situation. He was like, oh my God. I was with him that day. He didn't know you had booty called him. He was like so like, oh my God, I'm such an idiot. And I told him he was blowing it, whatever. And then what happened next was that our mutual friend told him to just like leave it alone and like not fuck with me anymore. And when he told me that, I was like, wait a minute.

I didn't tell you to do that. You took my dating life into your hands. And never, you know what he's funny is he never mentioned it to you? Like he, weeks went by. And he never was like, hey, by the way, I like, I took a monumental step on your behalf. Yeah. Like, what if we're all just sitting around thinking like, I haven't heard from this guy in weeks? What if all of this is because their friend told them to stop talking to you and they just listen?

Yeah, and he knew the situation. Our mutual friend knew the backstory. He knew that this, he wasn't taking anything away for me. I think he was just like, dude, you keep fucking up. She, you know, get out and be on good terms with Ashley while you can. Like, I don't really think that's a girl you really want to piss off or like fuck with. You know what I mean? Like, I think that was probably how he thinks too.

And, you know, he's in our good graces and things like that. And I think he was just like, give it up. This is, and like, never, I never heard from that guy again until he reached off or Dewey died. He's a good guy. So I say, and I feel good about him. I don't feel burned by him in any way, but it was just so funny because had our friend not stepped in and been like, leave her alone, you know, without my consent, but okay, then me and

that guy probably would have DM'd and texted and he would always just like pop up here and there. And I would be like, should we date? Should we try to date again? Should we fuck again? And like, it was this weird feeling of like kind of a relief that, like, he was out of my life because our friend told him without me knowing. Also, not because of you.

You can be like, it's not because you didn't want to fuck me. It's because someone taller than him told him to stop from him. Yeah, bigger, taller or hotter. But, like, it's just, people are like, why doesn't even fuck me? I don't know. There's a thousand reasons why somebody doesn't want to. Like, maybe that guy just wanted to be actually in your good graces and, like, just really, like, kind to each other.

I don't know. He's like, I'm not going to fuck with her anymore. Yeah. Or maybe someone told him to stop fucking you. Yeah. Yeah. And I just feel like it was, I've seen that guy make jokes about being, like, too lazy to, like, date or whatever, like, hook up with girls.

and like, that's a thing too. Like jokes aside, like sometimes guys are just lazy. They don't feel like, I don't know, coming into Manhattan from Brooklyn or whatever. Like, guys like we said are just not always just like DTF all the time, whatever pussy they can get. And some guys definitely are. Like, everybody's different, you know, but some guys aren't. And I just want to break that stigma of there. They're just always ready to go.

But I just, I do like the story because it's just that I probably wouldn't have told that guy to like leave me alone. you know, like the outcome that probably should have happened, happened because someone took it upon themselves to intervene in my dating life. It's so nice, though, that he just, like, went away. Like, out of sight, out of mind. We're going to talk about social media. I'm blocking people and things like that and an episode coming up. But, like, it's just nice when someone just ceases to exist.

Because, like, you ever get that text from somebody after not hearing from two weeks and you feel great. You're, like, killing it. And that one text message is just like, God damn it. It's just like, I stewing it for hours. And I'm like, I just didn't need to think about you. Yeah. And I do think we talk about this all these.

time, like, that is a little bit more of a guy behavior that they will just pop up. You know what I mean? Like, they're bored. They want to see what's going on. They may or may not even want to see you or fuck you or even try, but they just want some attention in that moment. And so, like, I just never had to worry about that again. I know what was funny that you asked me earlier if guys ever misinterpreted if I wanted to fuck them. Yeah, I was like, no. I literally cannot relate to the situation at all. But I, you were like so forward. I'm also like, like, I've never been that forward. My pussy is shaved and I just got a health. check come on a what are you doing tonight like i've never been that that is such a crazy thing to

miss like and we're not like we're not doing this in safe as he genuinely did not realize that you were telling him to come over and fuck you and it's like i hadn't talked to him in a couple weeks probably he knows i'm a comic you know what i mean like i genuinely think that he was like that's funny that is so funny no but anyways it's never happened to me i know i asked rena was like has this her happening you she was like no i'm pretty direct i just i can't imagine a scenario or so i mean plenty of people don't want to fuck me once I put it out there, but like it's never happened I put it out there and it didn't happen.

We have a really fantastic guest with us today. She is so many things. She's an actress, a comedian, a filmmaker, and a writer. She hosts a top-rated iTunes comedy and social commentary podcast, Confidentially Insecure, and is currently a commentator on E's Dating No Filter. She's the author of the book, Don't Fucking Panic, the shit they don't tell you in therapy about anxiety disorders,

panic attacks and depression. Please welcome to the show, Kelsey Dara. Yay. Yay. Hi. Thanks so much for having me. Do we get it right? Is that all your things?

You nailed it except for one word. You said the podcast is confidentially insecure, which I love. It's confidently insecure. It's like a play on words. But confidentially insecure kind of sounds like a new format. I was confused too. I was like secretly insecure. I was like secretly insecure.

No, we're like proud of our integrity. Confidently is different than confidentially. So I'm glad you clarified. Damn it. I worked so hard on these intros. I'm so sorry. No, you crush it and I was like spelled. That's why Ashley does a lot of the reading on the podcast.

It's better than what my dad calls. Kelsey, I have to tell you, I did a podcast with this guy and he introduced me as like Raina Greenberg, Girls Got a podcast about cooking, that it was a cooking show. And I was like, oh, you didn't even bother to look it up. Okay. So at least you know I bothered to look you up. You totally bothered. And read your book.

Yeah. That's like the biggest compliment in the world. I was telling you, it's like you don't think about when you write a book. It's so personal. The same way, like, doing a podcast, you're like, oh, yeah, I'm just talking to my friend. And then you're like, now hundreds of thousands of people know about the day guy sucks last week. Like, I totally get it. Well, where should we start? I mean, do you want to give us a little bit of background on you?

Sure. I mean, if you want to tell your birth story and whatever, just, sure. I'm a more like, like, double Gemini rising in moon. So I'm just like tons of emotion, though. Okay. Let's see. Well, I'm here to talk about anxiety, which is like one of my favorite topics to talk about, which if you would have told me that like even two years ago, I would have punched you in the face and like ran into a corner and taken a Xanax and cried for six hours because anxiety plagued my life for so long. And what I set out to do when writing this book was really dispel the myths around anxiety versus high functioning anxiety versus debilitating anxiety versus panic attacks and panic disorder. So I'm here to promote the. book. So might as well start with, I guess, the mental health journey. I am, I've been diagnosed with generalized anxiety disorder, panic disorder, and major depressive disorder, which has been a summary of like

15ish years in the mental health system. I've definitely been misdiagnosed, not diagnosed, not listened to completely, told I was crazy, told I was completely fine, that I was making it up, that I was hormonal, that I was just being a lady, you know, all sorts of things. So in my book, you kind of get to read all about my experience in the mental health system as well as it being a workbook, which was really important to me to make the pages and chapters, different exercises, tips, tricks, and treatments that anyone can try to learn how to manage their unhelpful mental health thoughts and disorders. Okay.

And you, you know, on your journey through mental health, you've worn like a lot of hats, you do do a lot of things. You live in L.A. You're a creative person. You work for Bud's feed, right? I worked there for five years. I still freelance for them, like, on the side. I'm actually writing an email to them right now off to the side.

Not while we're talking, but it's open. That's how much I'm multitask. It's the Leo and the Gemini. Gemini rising in me. So you put yourself in a lot of situations where people are constantly judging your work, everything you do, you say things, I'm sure that played into it too. And then you decided to write this book. So maybe we start with just your history with the mental health field

and how you felt about seeking treatment just in general? Totally. Like one of the good slash bad things, about writing a book about your own experience is that you have to dive back into those traumas and like talk about the worst most shitty fucked up parts of your life. And what I recognized actually through this book is it was so healing because I had always thought, and I talk about this in like my, you know, public speaking and online that I thought my first panic attack really happened when I was 17 years old. And I talk about the experience being on a plane, being very claustrophobic.

I almost landed the plane because I was freaking out so bad. I thought I was having a heart attack. My mom had to give me bottles of vodka behind the flight attendants back. Like it was bad. And throughout this book, when I started doing research and talking to different experts, because I am not a doctor, I should also preface with that, the point was writing a book from the point of view of the patient, not the expert. And I recognized that I actually started having mental health struggles way, way, way earlier on

than I had recognized. Like, I remember being, you know, on my little soccer league, my little neighborhood soccer team, and I'd be going up and down the field, like, feeling my heartbeat and, like, counting the beat and, like, talking to my friends and being like, is your guys his heart beating this fast? Like, how about my heart beating?

And my coach is like, Kelsey, get the fucking ball. And I'm like, I think I need to go to a doctor or a hospital. And, you know, it was written off as, like, hypochondriac behavior. I was, you know, the youngest child. My parents worked a lot, so it was written off as like attention seeking or I just wanted to spend time with my parents. And I'd be like, hey, mom, remember that time where I couldn't swallow and you guys took me to the ER in the middle of the night when I was like eight years old? What was that? And they were like, we don't know.

Yeah, I remember we took you to the emergency room and they just gave you some volume and we kind of went home. And I was like, never was it brought up about anxiety. Like it wasn't talked about back then. So in writing this book, I got to recognize, you know, my journey with the same. system and being put on medication was really stunted. And then it was like once I did start seeking treatment and did go to therapy, it was like the floodgate open baby. It was like zero to 60 real motherfucking quick.

And, you know, deciding to seek treatment was something that happened out of like pure desperation, not to get like too deep into like depression and, you know, that side of things. Because I know this is an episode about anxiety, but it got so bad that I was like, I want to die all the time or I go to therapy. And I was like, well, I guess I can try therapy first and it doesn't work. Like, I can always kill myself like later, you know? So, oh my God.

Yeah, it was bad. So going to therapy was like, like I said, the floodgates just opened. It was then like, you know, if you were willing to spend the time and money, we will throw anything and everything at you to try and fix you. And I make air quotes on fix because it's never about fixing someone. It's about management and kind of learning how everybody's bodies are different. you know, taking the stigma away and taking those labels away from people who have mental health disorders. Mm-hmm. Yeah. One thing I like that you differentiate in the book is like normal stress and anxiety,

like if a bear is chasing you, versus anxiety, like social anxiety disorders and things that you deal with every day at work or with friends and things like that. So I don't know if you want to talk a little bit about that. Yeah. Like what your day to day was like and was it like, what did it come in waves? Or is it just like long, you know, weeks of anxiety? And then you feel, quote, quote, fine. or like what was kind of like. Yeah. And also, I mean, you're 30 now? Yeah. Okay. And when did you seek treatment?

Like, sure. Yeah, my mom tried to put me in like child therapy. And I basically was like, I don't know, this lady. I don't fucking like her. I'm going to sit here and not talk to her and waste your fucking money. And I probably went to like three sessions and the therapist was like, she's just never going to talk to me. So you might as well just like try and go somewhere else.

Like I beat the game. I beat the system in my mind. This is in high school. And it wasn't until the plane incident where I'm, mostly landed the plane that my mom was like, we have got to go see someone. And they started me out on medication. And as I kind of started to open up to the idea that someone can struggle without bordering a line of like a severe mental illness, like what we portray in the media as unfixable, like a bipolar or schizophrenic, I was like, okay, let me just kind of like dip my toe in

here and there. And so when I went off to college, you know, I made sure to prioritize having a therapist because I didn't realize that I needed that third party in my life. And I totally say that coming from a privileged position because therapy is a major, major privilege. And in the book, I talk about that, what kinds of therapy and how people who maybe can't afford traditional therapy can use other resources. But differentiating from just having anxiety, like everybody has anxiety, right? The Dalai Lama, Megan Markle, you guys, me, we all have anxiety.

That is not a bad thing to have. Everyone should have anxiety. Otherwise, you should, like, get your cortisol levels checked out. When it becomes... I'm just too happy. I don't know. Too happy. I can't relate because we never...

No, I don't know what you're taught. What is it? Amen. Yeah, I'm like, use it in a full sentence. But when it becomes disruptive in your day-to-day life, that's when we're getting into, like, what I call in the book, anxiety disorderville population, many, many, many motherfuggers. And it's when it becomes, like I said,

interruptive of your daily life. So it can feel like it's coming out of nowhere. It can be very intense for periods of times. It can feel like waves. But there is a stress response that your body has that doesn't feel valid. Right. So it's either overproducing or underproducing if we're talking about depression or it's over stimulation. And usually it happens when other people will comment on it. Like, God, you just seem so intense about that thing. Or like, why are you so worried? You it can come off really invalidating to feel these things. And you're like, well, my body is feeling these things. So what do you want me to do about it?

And it's yoga, go take a run, taking the fucking nap, do some breathing exercises. And I'm like, I don't want to do any of that because I hate running. I just don't. My body doesn't run. And, you know, the other thing is, is like it's putting a Band-Aid over to a bullet hole is how I look at it. So if you're using coping mechanisms,

whether it be something healthy like breathing in yoga exercises or, in my case, heavily into alcohol and a little bit of drug use, then it can become, like I said, a Band-Aid over a Bullethole. And what I wanted to do with this book was really give power back to the reader to explain what is happening in your body when you are experiencing that high functioning or disruptive anxiety. And while it can be a superpower for a lot of people, like, you know, I consider my anxiety like fuel to getting shit done, to being like, that boss, bitch, motivation, blah, la la. It can also not be useful when I'm like at the grocery store or at an event or, you know, in places in life where even, you know, you would start to recognize on your own, like,

this feels like not right. Like I would always say to people, like something feels wrong. Like I don't know how to tell you that I just feel like I'm living with this fuzz over my skin that I can't shake off. and it feels overwhelming. So for people who are on their mental health journey, you know, it's so, so, so vital to check in with yourself because what other people tell you in therapists and doctors

and loved ones and people that hate you, what people say will never be as validating or helpful as what you can know and learn about yourself. And you kind of have to trust that gut instinct and trust that you know your body well enough to know when something maybe isn't right. Yeah, and I think that the difference might be, like you said, we all have anxiety. For me personally, I can usually place it.

Like, I know what it's from. It's like if I drinking gives me anxiety the following day, I can figure out what's going on. If it's not so obvious, I can usually dig a little bit deeper. But would you say when it's more debilitating it comes out of nowhere and you actually don't know why? And that's probably like, makes you then even even scarier. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Because your body just starts to function at this level that it likes, it gets used to. And you're like, why is it like this? I'm sleeping well. I'm, you know, eating right. Yeah, everything's supposed to be good, but I still feel this way. And that's when we have to look a little bit deeper. And, you know, in the book, I tried to keep the modalities of treatment range pretty wide because I know that, you know, Western medicine isn't for everyone.

I've had such a black and white relationship with medication. Sometimes it's fully saved my life. Sometimes I've had negative reactions to certain things. So for me, it was about giving people the wide breadth of what treatment can look like and management can look like because what works for you is not going to work for me. If someone finds something helpful that cures their anxiety, which I would always be a little cautious of anyone that says they can cure. or something.

Great. So thrilled for them. So happy for you. That doesn't mean it's going to work for me. So I've included things in the book that I did. That fully didn't work for me. But I want people to know that there are options available because it's such a fucking isolating thing when we talk about mental health.

It's so stigmatized. It's so shameful and so embarrassing that it can feel like there's only one route to take. And I wanted to show people that there are so many people not only dealing with this, but so many ways that you could try to manage your life. We definitely do want to talk about dating, but I'm also curious in terms of just managing social situations and how you've dealt with that, especially probably like in college,

where nobody's in touch with how they feel. Yeah, I wasn't. No one knows themselves. But I'm sure I made social situations a little stressful, especially before you figured out like a cocktail of either medication or therapy or literal cocktails. Or actual cocktails. And yeah, if you used, like, drinking to help Medicaid it or something like that.

And, like, I built this brand on the internet. A lot of people know me from BuzzFeed or my drinking videos or, like, my Facebook feed videos would always be about girls and drinking. And this was at a time, too, where we had, like, women finally being funny again with, like, Amy Schumer and Tina Veil and all these women who, you know, our alcohol culture was so strongly related to, like, how much you can drink equals how strong you are as, like, a woman, which. I had to really, really break down in my mind because, again, I had built up this sort of business of being a girl who can drink. And at BuzzFeed, that, like, that totally worked. The culture there was alcohol-based, our culture is alcohol, but dating is alcohol-driven. So when I would get into social situations, my first thing is booze, baby.

And once I had a couple little drinky drinks in me, I could wow anybody. I was like, the star of the show, the Leo and me would come out. I could like, oh my God, I could get anything I wanted. I could close the deal. I could suck the dick. I could do whatever I wanted if I just had like a little alcohol in me. Well, the problem with that is you take away the alcohol and I don't know who I am. I don't know how to do anything.

I don't know how to negotiate. I don't know how to promote myself. I don't know how to wow people. Am I funny enough? Am I this enough? Like I didn't think I could do it essentially. And I became very agoraphobic. And I talk about that in the book that I became so worried about what other people

were thinking of me that, you know, there were weeks that I didn't leave my bedroom. I started to imagine just disaster scenarios happening if I were to leave my place. And so something that I talk about in the book is it's a big, giant page in bold that says, like, the best news is nobody gives a fuck about you. And that's the best news ever. This is kind of a tangent. But last night I was watching a documentary about gut health, which does link to mental health in many, many ways.

100%. Oh my gosh. I got to watch that. I'm very into, like, gun-haw as a note. Like, okay, then you're going to, like, love this. And I feel my, um, all my emotions are my God. I'm like a certain type of person. It's like, on, it's an ingram thing, whatever.

You're an HSP. Same. Uh, we are more bacteria cells than actual human cells. And we have more bacterial DNA than actual human DNA. So we're not even actually human. We're bacteria with like human pacing. Good to know. Good to know.

You are literally a bacteria. Yeah. Like, we, like, nothing fucking. We're on a big rock orbiting this on it. Super viral. Yeah, that kind of like insignificance used to give me so much fucking anxiety. I'd be like, well, if nothing matters and like we're all living in a simulation, like all of that shit used to freak me the fuck out.

But in the book, I talk about like this idea that people with high anxiety and debilitating anxiety constantly feel like there's a spotlight on them. Like, why not? Why not? We're like, it's our life, honey. We're the star of the show. But that can turn negative in that you think people are. thinking things about you that they really aren't.

It's something like 80% of conversations people are talking about themselves, which is great news because we always think we need to impress, we need to be the best, we need to be on, especially in social situations when the reality is, once I recognize like, oh, everyone in here is kind of like an insecure bacterial casing, nothing does matter. Like if this thing doesn't go through, it's not going to affect me in any way. I have to just be present here and now.

I don't need to think about disaster scenarios that could happen or something stupid I said in the past. It was really about bringing that mindfulness to those social moments. And we do also forget when we're in social circles because we're always in our heads. I mean, at least I am, how do I look? Am I oversharing? You know, do I look nice, whatever? And I suffered from that a lot more in college where I like constantly thought about that. It's like, no one's thinking about you.

They're thinking those things about themselves. Everybody else in the circle just wants to know how they, except for Ashley. But that, no, I'm saying in college, of course. and I felt like I wasn't as pretty as my girlfriends and I wanted to talk to boys and it's like but then people will remember if you were the drunkest person that fell out fell. It's like you drink to get rid of the insecurity

and then you're the sloppiest mess because you were trying to. Or you're like an ball of like nerves. People notice how insecure and weird you're acting. Yeah, they're like, what is wrong with her? Smoke some weed and that's where like you really start to define your habits at that age. And that was also kind of like a big moment

I realized for me was like how I learned to cope with that anxiety, depression, or panic was how I implemented for years. And it was a lot of fucking unlearning. And I probably spent more money on learning unhealthy habits on coping than I did on seeking treatment. So for, you know, like the audience, I would say, you know, focus on developing those healthy coping mechanisms now because it's like trying to start to run marathons when you're 30. Your knees are just like, honey, we never did this. We're never going to.

Don't even fucking try. It's like the earlier you can start those good habits, the more your body will thank you as a get older. So a couple of things, this is a two-part question, just to actually talk about what does work for you. And then somebody that's sitting here listening that's like, okay, yes, everything you say I resonate with, I have anxiety, I have depression, I have panic attacks,

where do I start? And again, like you said, everybody's different. But like, what is your cocktail? Yeah. So like I said, I wish I could sit here and be like, you guys, everyone get on like 300 milligrams I'm blah, blah, blah, blah. It's like, no, it's not how that fucking works. Like, we know, yeah.

We have a huge pharma problem. Like, don't, that's another fucking episode. So don't get me started on that. I know. We will pop off about big. Dan Thotter tried to do it too. We got a whole, he popped off about big pharma that I started going on. We're like, we need to, this is a dating podcast, so.

I bought doapsic the next day. I like, quit stuff reading it. Yeah. Yeah, but that's like, that's fully, it's so funny you say there's a podcast about dating because, like, I feel like, mental health is such a big fucking part of, like, dating and dating conversations. How could you date? I will talk about Big Farm on a first date.

Listen, tell them, sis. Like, me and my partner that I'm with now got drunk at an event and we literally were like taking shots and I was like,

okay, so I went to rehab once because I basically was abusing my Ativan medication and I am like severely fucked up and he was like, shot. Okay, I have trauma stemming back from child. Like, it was the most freeing.

Like I literally get a boner thinking about it right now. That's how I knew. Right? I was like, okay, and I write about, this should be a drinking game. Every time I say, I wrote about this in the book, everyone take a shot. You'll be fucking wasted by now. But I wrote about in the book, I say this with such adamant confidence that your relationship will never be as successful as it could be if you are not willing to talk about your own mental health. And that also goes for partners, whether it be listening or being accepting and talking about their mental health too. It's never going to be. It's like pain to go to therapist and then lying about it.

It's like, why are we lying here? Like, let's get to the real. And if you don't know, it's scary. Like, if you're just dating someone new and you don't have a diagnosis or you've never gotten help, I totally understand why you're kind of like, let me put a little on this crazy until it fucking explodes in their face. So for people that are listening, you know, like you said, where do you even start? Acceptance with thyself, baby, is the first step. I think that's also like the AAA step. I don't know. I never did an A.A. But it's really about like knowing that it's okay to want help and knowing it's okay to not be okay. And knowing that you're not going to lose your job and your friends and your loved one and like who you are just because you're accepting a part

of yourself that you might have been like bumping up against for a really long time. So that is like my first step. And treatments, exercises that worked for me in the beginning stages was being creative. So whether it be journaling or painting or fucking dancing or jumping on a goddamn trampoline or like, you know, something that was healthy and not banging it out or snorting it or, you know, like doing the unhealthy version of that, things like that in the beginning were just helpful and getting it out of my body because we store so much in our fascia baby. That fascia is that muscle encasing. We carry so much trauma in our hips as women as our shoulders. There's like the body-mind connection is something I talk a lot about and write a lot about because there is such a relief and just saying, you know what, body? I'm going to give you 45 minutes every week in a therapist's office to just fucking be.

I'm not going to hold anything. I'm not going to try and be strong. I'm just going to give myself. That's the best fucking gift you can give to yourself is to honor your body the way your body honors you. And are on meds as well. And you don't talk about that if you don't want. No, you know, the only reason why I don't say specific things that I'm on is because, number one, it changes all the time.

And number two, I don't want people thinking like, oh, you know, if she's on Lexapro, say, like, I should go ask my doctor for Lexapro because I don't think like bodies and brains work the same way. There are very like standard SSRIs and certain types of medications we put people on. But for me, it's like I don't only have, you know, these anxiety disorders, but I also live with chronic pain. I also have fibroids and shitty periods and like there's other medications in the mix that people freak out when they first get prescribed to something and they Google it and it will say, you know, this medication is often used for seizures. And what we find is that a lot of medications that Big Pharma originally was pushing for a certain thing had a side effect of mood stabilization.

So now they prescribe anti-seizure medications for anxiety disorders. And people will see that and be like, that makes no fucking sense. Why am I taking these meds? I'm only reading terrible things every time I Google it. I'm just not going to do it. And it's like, nah, it's not helpful for anyone.

What you really should focus on is finding a psychiatrist, which is the type of doctor that actually can prescribe medication, finding a psychiatrist you fucking like and can connect with and actually asks you about your life because so many people think of psychiatrist as just the prescription writer and they don't know anything about you. They have a 20-minute appointment. It's like $250 and it's so expensive and inaccessible. and you're just like, well, I'm just grateful to be getting help.

It's like, no, bitch, I'm paying for this time. I want you to listen to my life and my symptoms. Yes, they should. It's up to them to help you. Yeah, it's really like they need to, we need to change the health system. Don't get me started. I also think when you publicize what type of medications you use as a public figure or just a normal everyday person, everybody tells you their opinions of it.

And it's really open for discussion. And I like that you really hammer home that everything is really one size fits one. So just because something works for me doesn't mean I'm saying you should do it. And so I like that you sort of start with just like general coping mechanisms and whatever kind of medication you take is what's right for you this week. Yeah. And I actually made a video for BuzzFeed that went kind of viral, which is what started my like public media journey into mental health advocacy was that I did a like stop motion animation using

all of the types of pills I'd ever been just prescribed to tell my story. So, you know, I actually got pills made and press that were like, Rezepam or like Valium or Xanax and I told stories through those types of medications and the comment section, you know, as widely and positively received that the video was, that whole comment section became people talking about prescription pills and it's terrible for you or that thing killed my sister and, you know, I've been on this. It made me get you bunch of weight. And it's like we're not here to make people more afraid than they already are about getting help. Right. You know? Yeah. Just get the help. Just go see a doctor.

Well, and also, like, we obviously have a problem in this country with meds. But at the same time, I want people to believe in medicine. So I want to, I'm glad that you advocate for it because, yeah, you don't just meditate it all away. Sometimes we're all, like, wired and built differently. And we're so lucky to have these things. We wouldn't have the problem we have. If we all had one fucking prescription and one, if we could all just meditate our problems away.

And, like, by all means, some people fucking swear by that. Like, great. I don't have time to. go sit in the mountains and meditate for nine hours a day. That's not fulfilling for me. That doesn't like get me going, you know? I can't get Instagram in the mountains. So that's up for me.

Yeah. At least for me, like, and I don't, I would never venture to say I suffer from any type of anxiety disorders. But when I'm feeling anxious, I'm like, Ashley, I like to just, I like to identify it immediately.

Writing really does help me. I like to smoke a little weed and just make notes in my phone. And I just like, I just write it all out. I tend to be like a little more, I'm harder on myself, but more clear when I smoke. And I just,

I feel like I see. things a little differently. And it just, it helps me to just, here's the problem, let's write at it. And then I feel a lot better at least that I know what the issue is. Yeah. Huge weed advocate for mental health. Huge for chronic pain. Like, I am all gung-ho about do what makes you feel good as long as it's manageable. Because I, when I did do my little like stint mental health rehab, there was someone there that was there for cannabis use. And everyone was kind of like, that doesn't exist. You can't like smoke yourself into addiction. Like it's not an addictive thing, but he had used it as a coping mechanism for so much that he couldn't, you know,

do anything without smoking. Yeah. And so it's like, listen, addiction can apply to anything when it comes to terms of coping and, um, like symptoms and usage and what we're, you know, doing to cover it. And I love, love, love that you said, you name it. Like add that to the list of first steps into getting help is even just being honest with yourself. And a lot of times that comes by verbalizing, saying it to a friend, having a

ability, just naming it. It doesn't have to make sense. You can say, I feel, like, it doesn't have to be a thugging word. But just naming it is such a beautiful thing. I love that. You said that. And also, the only times in my life where I felt like I was having panic attacks and going to die was when I had, like, smote too much weight.

So I just like, we're all different. It doesn't work for me. It's the worst nights of my life. We're on edibles. So it's just like, that's just, that goes to show. I got those horror stories. It's like I wrote a note. Like, we joked.

I was on a podcast. He wrote a note too. Well, my friends were like, you wrote a suicide note. I was like, no, I wasn't, I thought I was going to die. I just thought I was dying. I wrote the name of the guy that gave me the edible. And I was like, if you find me in my apartment, I was called my brother 12 times. It was like two in the morning.

And I was like, if I wake up feeling like this, like my life is over. And yeah, it was just a gummy. So I was fine. And I've never done it again. It happened twice. One time I just ate a brownie because I just wanted a brownie. I didn't know. And I was just like rocking back and forth, like on a vacation.

at this music festival. And it was so it's just like, yeah, it just, but it goes to show that we're all to fire differently. This thing, that could be like literally would help someone else get through. Totally save some life. Yeah. Yeah. Guys, I'm not mainlining edibles and I'm stretched out.

I take like three hits of a blunt and like journal in my phone. Girl, you're talking to like L.A. Listen, L.A. The culture. And I'm glad it's changing. Like, I feel very lucky that we're getting to be living in the part of the time where, you know, stigmatizing and, you know, pushing for the social unrest.

Like, I love that the generation below us is so fucking smart. Like, I'm, I feel really lucky that I get to live in this time where I'm going to see so much shit change, including, like, weed use. Like, fuck. Don't let Big Pharma get a hold of it. Oh, my God. We're bringing you back. Let's talk about panic attacks.

Yeah. And then we will talk about dating, how your partner can help you and how you can help your partner to cope with these things. For sure. Yeah. So panic attacks is something, again, if you would have told me two years ago that I could like be speaking freely and openly about it, I wouldn't have believed you because even just thinking about it, sometimes would trigger me into a panic attack. And in the book, I call that the panic attack about the panic attack. And it's like that Spider-Man meme where they're like pointing at each other.

Yeah. And it's like, that is the most commonly feared thing about panic attacks is once you have one, you know what that feels like. And you're constantly in a state. of anxiety, waiting, looking over your shoulder, assessing your... Yeah, like even just saying that emotion that it evokes, if you've had one, you fucking know that it is unlike anything you could ever explain to someone and wish that they could understand you, but also wish that they didn't because you don't want them to ever have experienced that, especially if it's someone you love. I think we throw the term panic attack around a lot.

Too lightly. Maybe you can explain the difference between like having a lot of anxiety and a diagnosed panic Yes. So anxiety disorder will usually manifest as emotional. So it's usually in our head. It's rumination. It's the stressed out feeling. It's very emotional. It's usually very internal. And panic attacks, anxiety attacks, panic disorder will materialize as physical. So that's when we get the sensation. Be on just, you know, if you get butterflies in your stomach because you're nervous, that's okay. That's like anxiety. That's supposed to happen. and your body is having a response to a stimulus that is telling your brain something is wrong. A panic attack often feels like it's coming out of nowhere, that it has no catalyst.

It manifests as your heart is beating, overly beating. You feel like you can't breathe. You feel like you're choking. You can't swallow. You're sweating. A lot of times your extremities will go numb. So your body is producing this very physical response where there's disassociation, which is my scariest symptom, where it actually feels like you're outside of your own body,

where you kind of feel like you're in the Truman show, either your reality doesn't feel real or you don't feel real. These are way more specifically panic attack symptoms and problems. Whereas society, you know, I'll be standing in line and some girl will be like, oh my God, this line is so long, I'm going to have a fucking panic attack. I'm like, no, you're not, Melissa, you're just angry and stressed out. Not that I am anyone to say whether or not someone is or isn't having a panic. attack, but I will say you will fucking know usually if someone's having a panic attack because it becomes outside of their own control, which anxiety is very much about control and learning

how to let go of that control a little bit. So panic attacks, some people can have one and you never have one again and you're just like, what the fuck? That was really weird. And then if you usually have more than one, you tend to be diagnosed with panic disorder, which then it becomes that thing of fearing the panic attack, fearing when is the next one going to hit. It's a very scary feeling and it was something that I never, truly, truly, never thought I would be able to live with. And the fact that I'm like here still and managing them and knowing when one is coming, knowing how to see the signs, knowing what environments give me those feelings is a fucking

miracle. Like, I cannot believe I am at that point today where I can sit here and talk about a panic attack. I'm so glad you are. Yeah, me too. Yeah. So what can, is there anything you can do in that moment? Yes. For yourself. And then let's say, like, we'll talk about that and then if your partner is having one or your friend or. Yeah. So for me, it was really about not letting my high anxiety kind of roll into a panic attack. So it was finding a way to, uh, recognize it, name it, you know, calm it before it got to panic attack central and recognizing like what stimulants would cause me to feel those symptoms. So sometimes it happens for people after exercising because exercise or, you know, sex even can produce those same symptoms.

Your heart rate is really high. You're sweating. You're kind of out of your body. And then people would have panic attacks after sex or exercise and then you associate that thing with negativity. and so you don't do that thing. And we get really inside our heads and really inside our minds about the activity rather than the symptoms our bodies are producing. So for panic attacks, I decided I was going to write down realistic things that, you know, my boyfriend could do to help me through a panic attack because he luckily has never had one.

He doesn't, he didn't really understand it. He fucking does now. You better believe it. But he was really clueless because he didn't know what to do. He would touch me. I would say, don't touch me. Then I would say, I need a hug. and he would try to hug me.

I'd say, I'm hungry, I'm going to throw up. My mouth is dry, but I can't swallow water. It was so confusing for him that I started to resent that he didn't automatically know how to take care of me the way maybe, you know, someone in my life who's been around that for so much longer did. So I wrote this list. It went viral on Twitter about 15 realistic things you can help me through a panic attack doing.

And it's everything from the most important thing I think on that list is listening to my needs without judgment. so you never want to probe like what's wrong, what's happening, why are you feeling this way? Because chances are they don't know. It's really about how can I help and be right here in the moment with you without overstepping and also kind of panicking themselves. Yeah.

Are there some other things? Yeah, the list was great. I thought I had to read the list. But yeah, sure. Like I said, things will help for me, may or not help for you. For me, it's about reminding me that I've been through this before because the scariest thought that I have doing panic attacks is that this is going to last this way forever.

It's like that David After Dentist meme where he's like, yes, there's going to be like this forever. Yeah, that's how I felt when I was like when I had the edibles, it was like if I wake up and I feel like this tomorrow, that's a wrap. I got to be in a padded room. Yeah, I hit a gravity bung once in college and was high for three days. And I was like, okay, on the fourth day, I'm done. I'm going to kill myself.

I can't be like this anymore. It was truly a nightmare. And it's so it's reminding that like this two shall pass. You have been through this a million times before. It's every single time you think it's going to be the one that locks you into a padded room. It's not. And I found that because I get that de-realization and that depersonalization symptom, that my boyfriend reminding me stories about my life and just kind of repeating facts back to me about myself helps.

Like he will say, you're Kelsey. We're here in, I don't know, Ralph's. grocery store. You are loved. You are safe. He's even made me voice memos before where when I would have to fly without him, I could pop my headphones in and he would be like, hey, bitch, you probably having a panic attack, aren't you? That's why you're listening to this. Like, I love you. You're being so silly. Like, don't worry. You're going to get through it. Like, it was things that I would have never thought about and actually like having a partner being able to reflect like your reality back to you rather than dealing with them alone. And, you know, I don't mean,

like you have to be in love in order to get over your panic disorder. Like that person can be a therapist. That person could be your mom or your friend. A mom, you know, me and Raina, whatever. A dog. Like I was helping, I was training a foster dog to recognize my tics for anxiety, which is I would pull out my eyebrow and eyelash hair. It's called trichitaillomania. And I would sit there and when I would get stressed, I would start to pull my eyebrow hair out.

And I was training my foster dog to alert me when I start to do that. And he got it. I like, make me cry. We like don't deserve dogs. We fully don't. I'm like, but so those are some things that I mean when I say like having someone who can reflect your reality back to you. It's like really fucking helpful. And I'm just curious about your relationship.

You'd go ahead and divulge as much as you want. But, you know, I think that it's easy when you're in love to share these things with people. But like when do you share that? When do you bring this stuff up? I'm sure that a lot of people feel like I don't want to scare someone and make them, you know. I mean, fully. I totally get that. Like, first of all, everyone has their shit.

If it's not going to be like anxiety disorder or like something mental health related, I don't know, they have fucking crazy parents or fucking like a herpes side uses. I don't know. Like everyone has something that they're like, I feel like it's going to be awful. And then it's not because you care about the person. Right. So like going in with the mentality of like nothing is to me undatable. Like I have my boundaries on what it is.

Except someone that's like, I'm perfect and have no problems. That's the undatible person. That's the fucking psychopath. Run. I should run. Yeah, exactly. So for me, I was in a lucky enough position to where when I did start dating my current partner, I had been through the system.

I wasn't managing it well by any means, but I definitely had the vocabulary to kind of talk about it. And I had the treatments and the, I had the knowledge of what it was. I wasn't doing well with it. I was in, you know, one of the most anxious panicky plays in my life when I first met him. But I was lucky enough to know at least how to talk. about it with him. And so for my advice that I always give is

as soon as you feel comfortable enough talking about it, I would talk about it with your partner because maybe you've been in a relationship for a long time and this is the first time you're thinking about seeking treatment and you really don't know and you knowledge is power. And that's like the whole reason why I wrote the book was really to

give the reader confidence to talk about their feelings and say, you know what? As soon as I am accepting, I don't have to like it, I just have to recognize it. I don't have to give it a thought. I don't have give it a judgment, but I know that it's there. I would start talking about it because, again, it's going to be

more helpful if you have a supportive partner. And if you don't, if they judge you or they give you hard time, bye. Your life is already hard enough. You don't need a fucking toxic person in your life that's never going to change, you know, can't teach an old dog new tricks or whatever. People that don't believe anxiety or panic and depression

isn't real. Cut those motherfuckers out of your life is fast. We can all date anybody if it was just going to be service level nonsense. We could all be in love with everybody. which is like happiness all the time. That's what relationships are. Yeah, it's not fun. One thing we got,

we got a message from a listener that she, her partner has more social anxiety and she's more of a social person that doesn't have that really. And so she was kind of wondering how to deal with that. And so we love for you to touch on that when your partner has the anxiety.

Sure. And that was really important for me to include that kind of section in my book because I knew that this was not only going to be for people who suffer themselves, but a tool guide toolkit for people who are like, okay, my partner says they've had this thing and I'm open to learning about it. So like, number one, God bless you. Like, we love people that, like, love people with mental health issues.

Like, we stand that in this house. The tip that I always give is, first off, knowing that you will never be able to fix someone. You will never be able to be the thing or the person that makes them want to change and makes them want to get better and seek help and see. like he's like leading a horse to water but you can't make them drink it right i feel like we need to update that metaphor it's like yeah i don't want to be the horse i don't be a horse yeah anyways guys think about it we'll do a contest for an updated metaphor let me know because i could actually use that no i love this so much because there's this thing of like you're going to come along and save

somebody and then they're going to be as soon as they meet you their life will change and we try to save people right we love somebody we care about them we want to help them we want to save them i've tried to and I got to tell you it is just it's a it's a fool's errand uh because you're not going to be able to do it see that's a better metaphor it's a fool's errand thank you i've never said that before and i don't know where it came from really yeah oh yeah it was fantastic it sounded very very intelligent it's in the lexicon um it's there in the lexas see look she's pop up today y'all um yes like savior moments we've all had them we've all seen people were like i've been through that before and if you just do this, this and this, it's like the theme of the episode.

And what works for everyone is not going to work for everyone. So, you know, with partnership, I highly recommend couples therapy if you can afford it, if you have access to it, especially if your partner is in those beginning stages of learning about their own, you know, feelings or diagnoses or emotions. Sometimes you really do need that third party to look into the relationship to see, you know, what are. triggers maybe you have as a partner to them that won't help in moments of panic and anxiety. And how do you let that person know without it seeming offensive? It's like you almost are too helpful. I need you to be less helpful. It's like, well, what the fuck do you mean? You know,

it can get lost in translation and that's just going to cause more stress. So highly recommend if you, you know, you can have a couple's therapist that you both really like and trust has been worked wonders for my partner and I. And then in the book, I also include some feeling sheets to look at facts and not feelings because I am someone, like I said, Leo, double Gemini, where my first gut reaction is to go to feeling. I'm not like a logics person. I react off my gut, off of like one, my body. Right.

We all know these people. They're us, highly sensitive. And my partner is not. He is like, well, let's write down the math. I'm like, there's no fucking math to panic attacks. Like, it does not exist. The limit does not exist. So being able to know that you can't fix someone, get a couple of therapists if you can,

and recognizing like your style of communication, whether it be someone, you know, I love the five love languages, I love enneagram tests, I love like the FNJP bullshit. Like whether it is bullshit like Zodiac or not, not saying Zodiac is, I fully obviously believe, if it helps you, who fucking cares? Like it's placebo effect too. Like if it helps you, I don't fucking care if you're like eating an orange once a day and you think that that keeps a doctor away or it's an apple. Metaphors are so outdated.

We got to clear them all. But I think like it's reading your book. And I'm not just saying that to like gas you up. But like it's knowing what your partner is going through. Because I dated someone that had a lot of trauma and it started to really come up when we started to get close. And I was so ill-equipped. I eventually did start going to therapy just to more so understand him

and how to deal with him. He was just trying to figure his shit out the same time I was. Like, we were just, it was so toxic and chaotic. And because it was all coming up together and I just had no idea. And like I know so much more now. And it was kind of a catalyst for even starting this podcast. Like, if you feel like if your partner has anxiety, they've expressed that to you, the first thing do is like run and get a book like yours.

So you can try to understand them. You know, it doesn't need to, if couples therapy is not affordable or whatever, it's just like at least getting some resource. so you can understand them. Well, even more than they may understand themselves at that moment. Because you're, I think you're out of your league. You know, I think it'd be foolish to think that you can help. Of fools errand.

Of fools errand. Look at it. It's a real thing. I also, like, actually dated somebody with a lot of trauma, and I just thought, like, he seems fine, but, like, it would manifest in all these other ways. And I was so out of my league and trying to help him. I just was like, well, maybe we can, like, update your resume and get your new job. LinkedIn will fix this.

Like, holy shit. And it's a growth thing too, right? Like usually when you're in that early 20s year, like you're both figuring your shit out. And it's not, you know, wrong place, wrong time. It really just might be that you guys aren't compatible. And that's completely fine. And like I said, the earlier you recognize that shit, the more you're going to save yourself. And that there's also free resources.

Like, you know, if you don't have money to buy the book, go on YouTube, go on the internet as your friend, find some message boards. Like there's tons of couples with this. thing, you can find fucking anything on the internet. So like, if you love the person enough, you will find a way to insert yourself in a way that is helpful. And like how that is might take a little bit to find out. But like, it's love, baby. Okay. Love ain't enough every day. Love isn't always enough. It's all, it's going to be strife. It's going to be rocky. And knowing that that's not the end of your relationship is, I think, vital for me to remind myself.

Like, I'm a very black and white thinker. I'm like, well, if he doesn't understand this, then like, we clearly are right for each other and we should break. And in my therapist is like, oh my God, Kelsey, it was about like breakfast sandwiches. Yeah. And I do think on the other side of the coin, sometimes it is the end of the relationship. And that's fine too. Sometimes we aren't equipped to help people. Sometimes we can't be in relationships until we go off and fix ourselves.

And sometimes it's healthy to walk away. That's a whole other podcast. But you can only help so much. And, you know, in my last relationship where I dealt with this, I was never going to be enough to help him or fix him. He needed to go off and find something. But he needed a different partner. He just, he wants to be just better for him.

He needed to do work on himself, too. Yeah. And, like, get a job. Your gas mask on before you put the other gas mask on. Gas mask? Oxygen mask. Don't gas. Anyone.

Just regular. Yeah. And I think about the girl that, you know, she doesn't have any anxiety. She likes to socialize in her. I think it was just her boyfriend doesn't. And I guess what I would say there is like, if you really care about the person, that's not a deal breaker. But hopefully he's working on him.

So I guess that's the only thing that would be that's the first step that he is aware that what he has going on is affecting the relationship. So it's like, if he's doing the work, she should respect that. And maybe she needs to recognize when it's happening. And she needs to make plans with her girlfriends more and deal with a partner. But I think for her, my question would be, I don't know the backstory. But is he working on this? Or is he just like, I'm anxious.

I'm not going out tonight. Sorry, we had planned. You're on your own. And like gaslighting you. Like, I have a mental illness. And it's like, well, you're not fucking doing any of the world. You need to know your boundaries too as a partner. Like I'm willing to show up to this.

And if you show up to this, like, woo, everything's so pathetic. If not, like, yeah, fucking, it's totally fine to walk away. It's totally knowing your limits. And we did an episode about should you get back with your ex? And one of the things we talked about was, you know, evaluating, had the things changed that were a problem. And I think that you can split up and work on yourselves and get back together if you really love the person.

The brain changes. We know that scientifically. It's called neuroplasticity. Your brain has to absolutely change. And that's the best news of the fucking day, baby. Is that like, can you change? No one's ever stuck the way that you are. And if they are, it's because they're unwilling to change.

Right. Healthy actually is a doctor. Yeah, I know. Yeah. Ph. PhD. Well, when you're in a lot of offices, you tend to pick up on a couple buzzwords.

Yeah. We wanted, just a couple like short topics to kind of wrap up with. We wanted to talk about if you're open to it that you don't drink now. Right? And then that decision. best thing ever did. I've done a ton of podcast on just sobriety in general.

It was, and I have a chapter in the book all about like alcohol use, drugs, anxiety, Sunday scleries, the weekend blues, like baby, I know exactly what you're fucking talking about or for three days I'd be like, I hate myself, I'm never doing this again. And then I drank the very next day and it was a cycle for many, many years.

And it is the best thing I've ever fucking done in my life. and absolutely nothing has changed and absolutely not a single person gave a fuck. And I thought it was going to be this big like either parade moment where people are like, she is done or people were going to be like, she's no fun anymore. Nobody gave a fuck. Nobody cares. It's never an issue.

It's fully just been like amazing for me. And I highly recommend people to do what I call like a mindful drinking journal. And just to like percolate on those feelings of if your brain is constantly telling you something, you should listen, you know, like if your body is constantly like, you really should cut back on the drinking. Like, we all have done that. But mindful drinking journal, like how much have you drank? Stop in between each drink.

Right. How you're feeling, right? What motivated you to have that kind of drink? Where are you? Why are you there? Like, why are you drinking that thing? What happened today? You know, like that also helped me.

That was the thing that I did kind of like the last week I ever drank was I stopped and took notes after every drink I had. And I was like, oh yeah, I'm just fucking. had been done for so long and was just still drinking. And some people can drink and live and be amazing and like more to them just for me personally. And usually for a lot of people who do end up quitting, it's the best thing that ever happened to them. I believe it.

I mean, I drink so much less than I used to. And I don't know. That day could come. With wide arms, we're here for you, baby. And also no one's going to care. I just love that you said that. It's so funny. You thought people were going to have this celebration parade or just like shun you from social

And nobody can. No one give us shit. And quarantine helps. Also as we get older, there's just find other things to do. Yeah. And so many, we have so many friends that don't drink. Yeah. And you'll find people like, like minded people.

Yeah. Did you, how long have you been sober? Dude, it's so funny. You're asking that. I don't know. Over 500 days. Like, I think once I hit a year, I was like, I did it. And I know that's a thing like in AA where they're like,

I have 6,000, 24 hours, 200 minutes. And it comes a rent song. I don't know. Like, it feels like forever and also yesterday. Okay. Yeah. No, we just wanted it in general. Yeah.

500 days, I think. Almost two years. 600 minutes. Congratulations. And how do you feel that it's like helped your anxiety? Oh, my God. Obviously a lot. Yes.

Like, I would spend days ruminating over just dumb shit. My body physically felt like shaky like a cold cat. Like, uh, I just felt like a homeless cat that was always cold all that. time and like throwing up and my mind wasn't thinking clearly. I wasn't as sharp as I was. I wasn't as funny as I could be, which is the opposite of what I thought. I thought drinking making me funny and wittier and on it. It was so untrue. And like I was able to cut out a lot of toxic relationships too when I quit drinking because usually it was the people that were also miserable and wanted just someone to drink with that I was hanging out with. And it just

like naturally happened that way. And quitting was relatively easy for me. I come from a line of addiction and I, you know, I've seen people who really struggle with it. But for me, the first two weeks were the hardest thing in my life. And then after that, it was like I'd quit drinking forever. It was like two weeks of the hardest fucking thing. And then I live fully. I feel like I'm shown up to life, you know? I love that.

Yeah, I love this. And now we've told people we had Nikki Glazer on and she talks about her journey. And she is a book. She recommends. And Chrissy Teagan, she is her book with like a woman or whatever. And now yours too. It's part of your book. So we just love giving people these resources.

We still drink. We're not. It's just like, it's your. choice, but we are giving you guys the resources and there are so many out there. You know what helped me was that we did a couple of recordings. We didn't release podcast episodes drunk, but I have recorded

myself when I'm drunk. You do. You think that you're funny. You're not. I thought that I was funny. I thought no one could tell how drunk I was. Untrue. With the rise of social media, that's the other thing is I'm like, just waiting to end up on some front page of something doing something fucking dumb when I'm drunk and like, if that's

what needed to happen for me to hit rock bottom, Lord. Lord, no, Lord knows, I'm glad I didn't. This is the real story, guys. Kelsey got canceled. No, I'm just kidding. If you dive deeply into the internet, you will find them. Yeah.

And we just wanted to wrap it up with like, if you have anything to say, we've touched on COVID a little bit. I mean, just people probably, they're at an all-time high when it comes to whether it's diagnosed or chronic or not, just general anxiety, sadness. You know, do you speak on this at all? Yeah, like follow that feeling. Like we are going through a collective trauma worldwide right now and like recognize that this is not fucking normal and that this is traumatic and our lives are different and people's lives are different. Money is different. Everything is fucking different. And like giving yourself that grace to be like, you know, just because you're struggling right now doesn't mean you have anxiety disorder, but you know, follow that feeling. And, you know, I constantly, this isn't like sponsored, but I use BetterHelp, which is an online therapy app, which is something you can do during the pandemic. And I actually.

actually found that I love doing it online rather than in an office, not only because parking in LA sucks, but I didn't realize I needed to be in the comfort of my own home. I needed to be in like sweatpants, eating cookies, like, you know, with the computer like this close to my face. Like, that changed therapy for me because I was so much more comfortable. So try on my therapy. I love that. Keep your body moving. Even if it's like getting a standing mat or like a yoga ball, keep that body moving baby. Yes, take a walk. I'm going to take a walk out after this. I'm like, bitch, take a walk. I know. I just leave. You have three more podcasts. You just have to do some jumping jacks and sit back down for the next one.

Exactly. I'm like going to get a little pedal under my desk. Like this, but I love yourself about like flow through it, go through it, acknowledge it like this sucks. It fucking sucks. Take a walk. Eat healthy. Like I feel like a different person when I eat a slice of pizza versus like a salad.

Like I feel physically different. Both of those things are good. Like yeah. You know, follow it. Follow what you need to do. Sometimes you need cheese pizza. Sometimes you do. Even if you're lactose and tolerance, sometimes you just need it.

But sometimes you don't. Most of the time you don't. Yeah, sometimes they'll eat cheese and feel sad. Like my, like Ashley does sometimes. I used and eggs together, she can't do it. I was at this, there was a point in my life where I was like, if I wake up and the first thing, I'm big on the first thing you put in your body in the morning, I think you have a clean slate and like, it always has to be fruit or something healthy.

A couple times, I just had cheese and eggs first thing in that I was like depressed. I'm telling you, my gut like speaks to me. It's weird. You were going to love that documentary. I'll have a meal and be like, why am I sad? Yeah. It fully is our second brain. They call it the second brain, which is funny because it technically should be the first brain

because it was the first thing that was developed in like mitochondria was a digestive system. Not a fucking brain. But I digress. Kelsey, you're a doctor. Dr. Kelsey. You're not a doctor. I'm not. You talked about dealing with COVID and I think your advice was great.

If you have anything else, listen to your podcast because it's great. That's my, that's my book. Read your book. It was in my podcast, but also you guys are doing a wonderful thing. What is it confidentially? You have to say it again. I put so much energy and pride into, like, hyping our guests and just, like, going hard. I said the wrong name of your business.

I hate myself. No, you're fine. It's truly couldn't care less. I'm so happy to just be here, but it's confidently and secure. You can listen and all that. This is a good place for you to tell everybody they can find you. Obviously, book, website, podcast, Instagram, everywhere. Yeah.

at Kelsey Dara on all the things and, you know, check out, don't fucking panic. It's online on Amazon or you can buy it on thought catalog. Okay. It was amazing. Thank you so much. I'm going to bother you now that I have your emails. We will.

Anytime. Confidentially. Yeah. Confidentially. Awesome. Well, thank you so much. Thank you guys. And you guys know where to find us.

Girls Gotta Eat Podcast.com. Girls Got to Eat Podcast on Instagram. Ash Hess. Raina. at Greenberg on Instagram, Girls underscore Gotta Eat on Twitter and YouTube.com slash girls got to eat. And we'll see you next week. All right, guys.

Have a good week. Bye.