Girls Gotta Eat - Are You Addicted to Drama? with Dr. Scott Lyons

Episode Date: August 26, 2024

If you've ever wondered "Am I the drama?" or always find yourself as the receiver for other people's problems, this episode is for you. We are joined by psychologist and author Dr. Scott Lyons to talk about what drama addiction is (and what it isn't), the different types of personalities with this addiction, identifying it in yourself or someone else, how it can affect your health, and how to break the patterns and find peace. We also discuss the difference between trauma bonding and drama bonding, why gossiping feels so good, and the art of "fuck it." Before Scott joins us, we're recapping our Jackson Hole trip, why we stayed in separate hotels, and Rayna's horseback riding experience. AND we're announcing the themes of all our tour dates! Enjoy! Find Scott on instagram @drscottlyons, listen to his podcast The Gently Used Human, read his book Addicted to Drama, and check out his website. Follow us on Instagram @girlsgottaeatpodcast, Ashley @ashhess, and Rayna @rayna.greenberg. Visit girlsgottaeat.com for tour dates, merchandise, and more. Thank you to our partners this week: Hungryroot: Get 40% off your first delivery and free veggies for life at hungryroot.com/gge. Nutrafol: Get $10 off your first month's subscription and free shipping at nutrafol.com with code GGE10. Bilt: Get points by paying rent at joinbilt.com/gge. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Those who addicted drama do two main things. They pull you into their drama to feel close. Or they leak it out so that you're part of their ecosystem. And that's the sense of proximity or closeness. This podcast is a Dear Media production. Hi guys. Howdy y'all? Hey, cowgirls.

Welcome back to another episode of Girls Got to Eat. Welcome back. Yehaw. If you guys were watching, you see that we're on theme. We're wearing our kimosabi cowboy hats. Yes. We want to wear them because they were a lot of money. We spent so much money on them.

But I actually texted Raina and I was like, can we wear our hats? Because I don't feel like washing my hair. And I was like, San Amorsis. Ultimate Life Hack. I didn't wash my hair one time on that trip and it looked great. And it's because of hats. So you'll wear a trucker hat or you'll wear like a hat out at night. Are you asking or you're telling me?

You do sometimes. Like you feel comfortable doing that. Wow. No. So do a lot of people. So do it. That's your vibe. So you feel comfortable.

I'm thinking of our friend Taylor who's such a fashion icon like she does it too like for whatever reason I am a hat by day girl like I have so many hats so many baseball hats now more of that trucker style like all the time I've been in the hat game but like at night I just don't so my dirty hair move is always like a low slick pony so I'm not really one to go out with dirty hair without that loess like pony I mean I'll grease it up don't get it twisted I've been out on these streets six days from a wash but this is just the the ultimate because you looks your hair you can't tell it's just the bottom i mean mine's looking a little scraggly but and you look fashion yes all right well let's take our partners and then we'll get right into it thanks to bill get points by paying rent at join build dot com slash gge and thanks to hungry root get 40% off your first delivery and free veggies for life at hungry root dot com slash gge and get $10 off your first month subscription and free shipping at nutrifle.com with code gge 10 okay so our tour starts very soon, September 21st, Vegas, bring your friends, bring your partners. We're bringing everybody we know. Yeah. Okay. And we have a big announcement. We are theming the whole tour.

You guys, get ready. Okay. And what we're going to do for Vegas, drum roll please. GGE wedding. Yeah, baby. So wear your old wedding dress if you have one, buy one, wear an old bridesmaid's dress. Doesn't have to be ugly. But we love ugly. Points for ugliness. Points for ugliness. Points for creativity. But we just thought like getting married in Vegas such a vibe.

And we would love to see you guys in wedding attire. Yes. And we're going to do a costume contest, obviously. Yeah. Your costumes. We'll rate like best bridesmaid dresses are ugliest and ugly. We'll do ugliest wedding dresses. No, if you want to come and you want us to trash your dress,

if you've gotten divorced and you're like, let's fuck this shit up. We'll do it. We've done it before. Yeah, we've done it before. We did it in Toronto. We trashed a dress. It was so much fun. We had like squirt guns with red.

with red wine in them. Like, we really fucked that dress up. It was fun as hell. So, yeah, I mean, who knows what we'll do. Listen, I'm not going to do ugly. I'm not going to do tacky. Oh, you're going to do bridal. I'm going to do Vegas showgirl.

But like, I don't want to- Someone who's so far away from marriage. I don't want you guys to be like, oh, we get to look hot. You need to look ugly. Look hot. Yeah, look hot. We're a cropped-top wedding dress like Sheena. Ashley doesn't understand that reference.

But you guys do. Can someone check on Shea? But yes, whatever you guys want to do. Or don't do it. You know, you have your alpha picked out. don't think this is something that is required, but we just think it's really fun and what better time to do it.

And like, God, I fucking love seeing insane looking bridesmaids dresses. Like, I mean, I've been in so many, you've been in so many that especially, I can't believe what people have put man. Yes. My own sister-in-law. She's like, I know you have triple F titties, but how about this dress with no bra that you can wear?

Just backless. A little crop top. Yeah, a little crop peplum. I was like, I can't believe this is how about. Hi. Do you hate me? Let's show a photo. You got to bring it at least.

Just bring it out. I don't know where that is. Oh. I threw that in the trash years ago. Oh my God. So wear those or wear something else or, you know, whatever you guys want to do. Dresses, be a groom, be the efficient. Come as a priest.

Flower Girl. Yeah. If you're a fellow member of the clergy, like me, bring your lanyard and be an officiate. We just, you guys get so excited for a theme and we get even more excited. So pack your outfits. Come. We'll see you at the Cosmopolitan September 21st. And then after Vegas, I'm coming home.

We have Pittsburgh, Indianapolis, Detroit. The theme. Are you guys ready? Slumber Party. Take that however you want. You want to wear sexy lingerie. You want to wear like a full like skims top and bottom. Whatever you want.

Boxer shorts and a bra. Yes, boxer shorts. Just you want to do a walk of shame. You want to wear the guy you hooked up with the night before his clothes. Do that. I've dressed as walk of shame for like Halloween and stuff before. I've just done walk a walker shams for Halloween. I love it.

So yes, whatever you guys want to interpret slumber party as. And then of course, we have Portland, and Philly. Those are going to be Halloween themes. We can discuss costumes as the shows get closer. But Halloween themes, costumes, whatever you guys want to do. And then with the next run, I'm going to let Raina announce it, of course. But Denver, Minneapolis and Madison. What's up, cowgirls? We're doing a Western theme. I am so excited. I didn't think I was going to get to do anything Western on this tour. And now we all are. So your cowboy hats, bring your cowboys, bring your cowgirls, boots, fringe, suede, everything, leather. Yes, all you Denver Broncos

ride it. Save a horse, ride a cowboy. And so again, we're going to let that trickle into Minneapolis in Madison, too. We can't wait. And then New York, our two shows in New York, want to announce it because I want to do Boston. Gold and silver, you guys. Just make yourself sparkle. Everything golden is the holidays. Get dressed up. Do interpret that however you guys want to. In the words of one of the most classic rom-coms of all time, how to lose a guy in 10 days, frost yourself. Go frost yourself. Go. yourself. Yes, we're going to be sparkling it up. Silver and silver and gold. And then we're closing it out. We're closing out in Boston three shows red and green. You know, we love green. We love our Celtics.

Maybe you'll see them there. And so we just, let's close it out in the right way. All red and green. Christmas shows. Christmas shows. So we just, we love getting dressed up. People get so into it. I mean, you guys, Halloween last year, all three shows just went wild. And we're like, why don't we theme the whole tour? Yes. So I'm like low key the most excited for the slumber party. Are you? I mean, it's just going to be comfy. Am I going to be sexy? Yes. In front of my dad. That is so funny.

Laundre in front of rain his dad. That's the vibe. Ashley, you got to wear a sleepy shirt. You got to wear your sleeping shirt. No. You know I'm going to wear. Vineyard Vines, my 3XLT, that I bought at the big and tall. Yes.

And I just kept showing up in to go to the airport. That morning? Okay. All right. Sleepy shirt. With nothing under it, just skims and heels. Enjoy her vagina, you guys. Have fun, Bill.

So Girls Gotta Eat.com, get all your tickets. Every link is on the website. If you have questions about tickets, about pricing, about changing from one venue to the next, that's not a thing. But just contact your point of purchase and they will help you. So Ashley and I don't hold any tickets. We don't control any of this.

And that's important for you because we don't have your credit card information. So if you guys have any questions at all, just contact your point of purchase and they'll help you out. Yes. And if you really want to get married, just email us and let us know. I mean, I wouldn't be mad at doing a wedding there. Like, I'm happy to do it.

She's my dream. What do you mean? It wouldn't be mad. Okay. So just if you feel like that's your vibe, you're like, might as well get married, fuck it. Yeah, what else are you doing? I'll do a group wedding. Like, I'll officiate like five people in a row. Can you marry five people at once? Is that, I don't see why not? Why not? Are you ordained in Nevada? Doesn't matter. Everyone's ordained in Nevada. Doesn't matter. I can, I can marry. Tessa can marry people. No, I'm not. But I am, I just checked my credentials recently because I'm officiated my cousin's wedding next week, actually. So,

can I do it? Like, anybody can just do it? You can be like, boobb-de-bobb-boob-boop. You're married. Why are you trying to be like, there can only be one priest in this podcast? I'm clearly the rabbi, actually. Yes. Can you marry people in Hebrew? Because I can. I've been brushing up. I know not one Hebrew word.

Okay, I went to a wedding line, so it was my cousin Jeremy and his wife, Lindsay. It's John and Sherry's son. And they got married by this, like, I don't know if it was like a traveling duo. It was a priest and a rabbi. They like did the ceremony together. Yeah. It was really cute. Yeah.

They're still together. Tag team. Yeah. Okay, so I think those are our housekeeping notes. We are back from Jackson Hole. I am a changed person. Well, I'm not really that changed because I knew I would love it. Yes, you were thriving.

I had the best trip. It was me, you, our friend Rob and his wife, and the four of us travel really well together. Everybody's just kind of down to do everything. It was like enough stuff planned, but not too much. We did a hike, you guys, I hiked along a lake, which was great. We went to the rodeo. We had a lot of steak. I want a horseback riding, which we'll talk about.

But I just, I loved it. It's a great place. It's a perfect three-day vacation. Oh, absolutely. I mean, obviously, there's so much to do. But I feel like we really did everything we could fit in in those three days. You plan the perfect trip. You really had the itinerary locked and loaded.

I didn't do a thing. I actually procrastinated on the whole trip and I stayed at a different hotel. And you paid for it, literally. I still stand by my decision. So Raina stayed at this really gorgeous hotel called the Cloud Vale. It's right in the center of town of Jackson. And by the time I went to book it, it was just too pricey. I was like, I got to tap out of that.

It doubled in price. Yeah, doubled in price. I was like, I don't. I'm just going to look for something else. And so I stayed at a place also in town, like five minute walk. I mean, so close. Like, you know, what three, four New York City blocks away, right? And it was called the Alpine House.

And it was the most, I guess I don't stay in bed and breakfasts a lot. You know, like I've stayed in boutique hotels. And this is still technically a boutique hotel. But it was like bed and breakfasty. It was like homey, intimate. I felt like I was in someone's home. But it was more, it was a lot of rooms. It wasn't like it was like someone's actual house.

But it was just crazy. I mean, one man working the front desk. He checked me in. He brought my bags up to the third floor. Free breakfast every morning with everybody from the bed and breakfast at night when I would come home. There was no one at the front desk. They like weren't working after like 8 p.m. or whatever. So it wasn't 24 hour doorman. And I would walk in and feel like I was sneaking in after curfew. I mean, I post this on my Instagram story, but I was like this is so funny. I'm like in a dark home. I was wandering around. There was like a little living room with like a fireplace. I was like up and down the halls, just exploring, just listening for people having sex. You know, like it was just a funny. I've been having such good luck lately. I've been. even hearing so much sex in hotels. Really? Loud crazy sex. Yes. At the standard in New York, like the loudest.

I mean, it's my dream. I know. Anyways, it was really weird staying and not a hotel with you. I kept on to be like the hotel we stayed in. And I kept being like, we're not away. Well, I just think it's funny because someone posted in my comments. They were like, do you guys stay at separate hotels? I'm like, not usually.

Never, ever. It was just, you know, I'm the more down to Earth one, you know, right? This week. Yeah. But we recommend them both. I loved the Cloud Vale. They had a great rooftop or we had drinks up there one night. And they have snacks on every floor.

you can just grab snacks. I actually kept coming over for the snacks. She kept being like, I'm just going to get some snacks at your hotel before I go home. I felt like a broke bitch. I felt like that friend who can't afford to stay in the fancy hotel but is stealing all the snacks. And that is actually what happened. I would come in with my water bottle. I would fill it up.

There was water on every floor, filtered water. Snacks just galore. I was literally going home, walking home to my cheaper hotel with a cup full of snacks from your hotel. There were snacks everywhere. And I had them. One day I sent you this photo. You guys, I don't know where I've never thought of this. So I wanted to like scroll on Instagram, but I also wanted to eat my snacks at the same time.

But I was all, and I was naked. So I laid back on my bed and I just put the cup of snacks between my thighs. And I scrolled and my thighs were my cup holder. I've never. Yeah. Have you ever thought to use your own appendages as a cup holder? No, it's pretty genius. Should we post the pick?

Why didn't I? So you sent me the pick and I was like, oh my God. No warning. Just like cup between your thighs is pretty crazy. I did have panties on. Your panties were on. Yeah. I just feel like if someone would have saw that, they'd be like, you promise you guys don't fuck.

Why is she sending you that? But I was thinking it'd be a good thirst trap to send. Because I love a thirst trap with a reason behind it. You know, like, look at this, what I discovered. You know what I mean? Ashley likes more like high level thirst traps. No, but like to send to someone you like have a crush on. Yeah.

Like you could be like, have you ever done this? I know you love snacks. And then he's like, is that your pussy? You're like, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, come get this snack. Nailed it. So I know you guys were all rooting for me to hook up with a cowboy.

I did not. And I thought it would really be crawling like wall to wall with like single cowboys. boys like just young cowboy boys yeah so I talked to our friends like of age but young under aid not you I'm not like loy data guy that's 22 no but okay so the first night we went to a million dollar cowboy which that's where they are that's where all the young men are yeah and it was our first night of three and we had an early hike the next day and I was like let me not blow my load tonight it'll just be wall-to-wall cowboys for the rest of the trip so like we flirted with some guys and it was cute but also I had this big steak dinner

It was late. So we had a drink when we went home. And then there weren't any really cowboys to speak of. I know. After that, it was like older couples and a lot of just couples. So I asked Brittany, our friend Brittany, who's like part of the country culture. And she's like, you, she's like, I could have told you that. You thought it would be like dancing Montana boys everywhere.

And she's like, that's not really what like Jackson's like. Well, maybe more people are skiing in the winter. In the winter. Yeah. I don't know. It's just, I guess we've talked about this with Jared. Like, where are the guys? You know, where are they vacationing?

but I still thought we would see more. I mean, there was a lot of guys in that bar. I mean, they were coming up to you. Yeah. Like, I think if you would have held your ground and just stayed there all night, you know, something would happen. But you didn't know. I didn't know. Okay.

So you did horseback ride. So I had to go to horseback riding by myself. And I wanted to tell you this story. So nobody came with me. Rob's too big to ride a horse. Like, can you even imagine Rob on a horse? He can be on an extra large horse. Like a Clyde's tail?

Yeah. So one of Matt's friends he played football with, a fellow lineman, was a horse cop. And so he was like, I was like, wait, Corey, I knew he was a cop, and he was a horseback cop. I was like, on what horse? But it is like a giant Clydesdale. So they had some of those on the ranch.

That's not what we were riding. Yeah, like it would have looked a little inhumane to see Rob on like a Karen, for example. So you guys, my horse's name was Karen. And it was white. It was all white female named Karen. Blonde hair. And they were like, we did this before the whole Karen thing happened. Cut into like, did you?

I'm kidding. Can I speak to the manager cut? That's what Hermann said, actually. Can I speak to the manager? But Rob is too big. That's her tattoo. But I went by myself because you were scared, which I get it. It is a little scary.

So I have horseback ride in the past and I even grew up. My cousin Lindsay, my aunt competitively rode when I was a kid. And I even went and Vail a while back now at this point. But again, like summertime trip to Vail, we did the horseback riding up to the mountains. I just, I'm not trying to be too morbid. I had a friend that, like, did a horseback riding excursion and maybe not the most reputable place. So I will say that. And like fell off, got dragged and almost died. And I have heard her story face to face in full. And it just

kind of scarred me for life. And I personally don't like to do a lot of risky physical activities. I feel like I do a lot of things that like scare me in life. I mean, like people would probably rather do much more things than do stand-up comedy. I mean, I like to like take risks, but weirdly not physically. Like I don't really like to ski. I just don't. Even when I'm biking, I don't like to get going downhill too fast where I feel like I could fly off and just. die and like horseback riding like animals are can be unpredictable and so there's things in life that I like used to do and I just don't do them as much. I think it's founded. There was a horse that got a little spooked. I will say I went to this place, Spring Creek Ranch. I highly recommend

it. Their guides were incredible and this girl, a buck jumped out and it spooked her horse and the horse took off a little bit and she was incredible. She was like, I'm from Kentucky. I do this all the time. I was like, go off girl. It was me. I would have died. So anyways, I got to the stable. I got to the ranch. I was by myself and there's about, I don't know, 20 people and there's like eight or 10 people like helping you get on the horses. So there's a lot of people around. I check in. I'm like, hi. And she goes, where are the rest of people that are with you? And I go, no, it's just me. She goes, just you. So you're by yourself? And I was like, yeah, I'm by myself. So she gives me the information. I go back out and all these people and they go, okay,

the Johnson party, the Smith party, which one are you part of? And I was like, just me. She goes, you're alone? You're alone? You're alone? So go stand at the front. So go stand at the front. The Johnson party, the Smith party, stand next to her. The one who's alone, stand at the front. And then this other guy comes down and he goes, which one is by herself, somebody that doesn't have anybody with them? Are you alone? And then I go over to the horse and he hands the horse off to another one. She's by herself. Can you help her on the horse?

You don't have anybody with you? No, I'm alone. This is crazy. Every single person is just chiming in between themselves. And they're like, okay, get the horses to line up. That girl, you by yourself alone, you can come to the front. It's like as an L sketch. I felt like I was being punked.

Every person on the ranch had to say something about me being by myself. Which is so weird because, like, you ride a horse by yourself. You know, like, it's a solitary activity. I get that you do it as a group, but it's just a thing that you're on a horse by yourself anyway. So, like, who cares? I actually was surprised by how quiet it was. I was in a line of, like, 10 people, but, like, the horses were pretty spread out. So even the couples that were, like, on this trail weren't really talking to each other.

Exactly. It's an activity to do solo. The amount of people screaming across the stretch, she's by herself, the one who doesn't have anybody, she's alone. She's still, like, a person who was insecure about that would have died inside. because they were like, which one's alone? I had to be like, me. Me over here.

I'm the one that's by herself and has no one. It was so crazy. So hysterical. I really feel like I was being punked. And I mean, I don't mind doing stuff by myself. I don't care at all. Exactly like you said, well, we always say,

no one's thinking about you. Nobody cares. Like this woman actually got off. This woman that was in a big party. She was like, I'm too scared. I got to go. She got off the horse. Oh, really?

No one's thinking about you. People are generally thinking about the horse between their legs. Yeah, exactly. And how am I going to deal with this for two hours? I know, but you're right. That would have affected some other people. They would have been like, could you guys say alone one more time?

Say it one more fucking time. Louder to more people. Yeah, you need your right of review. Don't go if you're single. They'll shame you. They kill single people here. Everyone who's single got trampled by their horse. Somehow I got thrown off.

Karen trampled me. Like really just dragged them. No, I'm just kidding. But like, guys, relax. Stop saying alone. Right. I get I'm alone. Yeah.

I like doing things alone. It doesn't bother me. Yeah, you should be celebrated for it. And I think people always think that you look so confident and cool and they always want to know why you're doing stuff by yourself. And so I always champion going to do stuff by yourself. Because like what's the alternative? I really wanted to go horseback riding. And if nobody wanted to go with me, I was just going to not go. I know. Well, it's funny because I did something a little bit lower level of an activity. But I went and rented an e-bike and went on this like, you know, 16 mile bike ride from Jackson to Teton Village. But even at the sporting goods store, it was all groups. You know, people are doing a group activity. I literally just have my. memory job. I mean, they asked me once. They were like, are you alone? Or are you with a group? It was like, I walked in and they were like, let me finish with this group. You know, let's get this couple. Like I had a similar experience. I just remembered that they were like, are you the only person? Are you the only person alone? And I was like, yeah, you know, just, just me. So it is such,

yeah, it's a similar energy. People like can't wrap their head around it. It is funny because like horseback riding, biking, hiking, I don't really need to talk to somebody while I do those things. Like I actually was like, this will be a nice experience for me and a nice opportunity to like just be a little introspective, have a meditative moment. I'm two hours on this horse. Like people find horses like equestrian therapy, you know? And so I thought this would be a nice thing to actually be by myself. And it was hard to talk to each other.

I remember going four-wheeling, like ATV riding through the rainforest. Like we went the one cruise we took as a family. We like stopped off. I think we were like in Puerto Rico. I don't want to misspeak somewhere. And we like, that was the excursion that we did. Horseback riding? No, four-wheeling.

like through the rainforest and they like couldn't believe that I wasn't going to ride with my dad and my brother. I mean, I was probably 26 and I was like, yeah, I want my own. I'm going to hold on to my dad or my brother also. No, thank you. Like they couldn't, they were like, so are you riding with your dad or your brother? I was like, I want my own four-wheeler. You're not going to ride with one? No.

Ew. First of all. Down on this. Yes. I've already, I've already said the embarrassing thing. You're going to make me say it again. I think there was another ship I went on. There was a jet skiing thing.

And I was like, no, I'm by myself. I want to drive it by myself. I always want my own jet ski. It's the best part of being single. You get your own jet ski. I wonder if anybody, like, if it crosses their mind, that this is like a crazy thing to say to people. Yeah.

Like you do it all day, every day. No one's ever been like, I'd really prefer to not be singled out with such language. Well, you know what? They just need to change the language. They can be like, we have an iconic solo rider over here. Like, let's just change the language.

Yes. This bad bitch over here by herself. This boss queen. Say it all the, all that you want. If you, like, change the language around. This person is not. too much of a bitch to come here by herself. All of you need to be with your dusty husbands. Yes. Where's all the little group beaches? We got a single bad beach over here.

Like, it's just, let's just change the language. Talk about it all you want. We have an independent lady over here. All the women independent. They start playing Beyonce. This ain't Texas. Like, change it. I'll love it. I know. Why do you just keep screaming, are you alone and are you solo? Yeah. Someone has definitely cried. Someone has been post-breakup, went to go ride a horse and retrospect in the woods. And they've been like, are you alone? Oh, you're single. No one's here with you and they've just broken into tears.

Okay, but like, we always talk about doing stuff alone and we're like, what's the worst that could have you? No one's ever going to look at you and be like, so you're alone. So you're by yourself. Say you're single. And I'm like, that actually happened to me. Don't go horseback ride. That actually happened to me.

You got to practice to go do that. Like, eat in some restaurants alone before you go horseback riding. That is like black diamond level of like being solo. Everybody is there with their family and loved ones and you have to repeatedly tell. the whole group I'm alone. Oh, my God. So we had a great trip. Oh, and, you know, speaking of Cowboys,

just want to also tell you guys that we have, of course, our company Vibes Only, which is premium sex toys, vibrators, accoutrement. We just launched a cleaner. We have lube. We have suck and blow gel. And we have this app that has erotic audio in it, and it pairs with your vibrators via Bluetooth.

And there's just an amazing collection of stories that you guys can listen to, whatever you're into. And probably one of our most popular stories is a character named Cowboy Clint, and he has a whole collection of stories in there and he is the sexiest voice and these stories will just really transport you. So Raina, of course, was like, I didn't fuck a Cowboys. So she got to go home and at least listen

the app and masturbate to one. Yeah. So if you guys are in the Vibes Only app, if you're new around here and you want to download it, get in there and Cowboy Clint is going to be the go-to story. And they really are like so hot and sexy. So anyway, can't recommend it enough. I just want to shout that out for you guys. So great trip. We love it. We will definitely go back. And, you know, I want to give all the respect to the world to actual cowgirls, but this is a great place to embrace your inner one. I mean, in Jackson Hole. The clothing was just Westernware. Oh, yeah.

That's my favorite. Yeah. Now you know that I'm actually capable of planning trips. So I'm assuming this is going to fall on me again. God. You really were having some weaponized incompetence with planning trips. I've had to plan trips for years. I mean, I was like, I don't know, you just do it better.

And she finally came out of the woodwork because it spoke to her. You're the only person that I would plan a trip for me. And it is a lot of pressure planning for everybody because I know everybody has a certain bar for what they like to do and how much they like planned for them. Like I sent the it itinerary and Rob was like it's too much stuff. And I was like, it's all optional.

I made dinner reservations. I got a rodeo tickets. Everything else is optional. Yeah, you really did a great job with these few other little things that were flexible. Like this is the one place I wanted to go for lunch and then we went the day before it was on the itinerary. But like we got it in and then you were like this bakery and then I went on my own accord and then met you guys there later.

So it's like you just really scouted for the best things, put the things in that need to be scheduled, and the other things were like here and here, and you can, like, you know, piecemeal it together if you want and hit all the stuff. And we really did it. Yeah, we really did it. So now you know, now you know that I can put a trip. Okay, well, I am going to tell you guys about hungry route. Okay, so we are really into this, especially as we get back out on the road, just meal planning is really important, less grocery shopping, stuff that can really be a hassle. So hungry route makes it possible to spend less time doing all that, more time doing what we love. This has just been great. I mean, I just don't. I just don't,

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creator of Embody Lab, the largest online learning platform for body-based trauma therapies. He has been featured in the New York Times, Vanity Fair, Forbes, Fortune, really so many more. Today we are unpacking his book, Addicted to Drama, Healing, Dependency on Crisis and Chaos and Yourself and Others. Please welcome to the show, Dr. Scott Lyons. Hi, y'all. Hi. Thanks for having me.

We're so excited to have you. You come to us highly recommended from the whole fam, Emily Morris and Amy Chan and so many women that we just love. Yeah. Oh, I'm blushing already. So there's so much to unpack already before we started recording. A couple things I love that you said. Mm-hmm.

You said that you became a doctor. because your Google search your name was coming up too explicit. Back when I was a very naughty artist, meaning like I did a lot of like really crazy performance art. And I thought that was going to be my profession, which very much falls into the story of my addiction to drama. Yeah. But yeah, I was on NPR doing a rap, which wasn't very good.

You're rapping. I was rapping. Oh, like a rap rap. Yeah. about Disney princesses, as one does. Of course, of course. And they told me on air that they Googled me, and the first name that came up was the porn star Scott Lions.

And that wasn't the first time I heard that. So I quickly realized I needed a massive change in my life, did a quick fix, became a doctor. So that I would be Dr. Scott Lyons when people would Google me, and I would be out Googling the porn star. The porn star. Well, I have to look up Scott Lions, porn star right now. That's what I'm doing white. Whoa. Oh my goodness. Yeah. It's a lot to compete with.

And he's not even hot. No offense to him. He's just like a white guy. So like I can see people being like, maybe that is him. Right. I know at times I got confused too. He's so skinny. He's so skinny. Okay. Imagine the audacity that you could be a porn star being that skinny as a man. Everybody has a different body. That's probably someone's kidding. I'm sorry to body shame this porn star. I've never heard that motivation for becoming a doctor. And I really do appreciate it. We all have our different motivations. Yeah.

Well, congrats on your doctorate. Thanks. So Ashley and I both read your book. We love it. It's fantastic. And the whole time I was like, am I the drama? Am I addicted to drama? So we're going to like unpack all that today.

But maybe we start with like your story and how you got. You have so many certifications. You know, they are what I call my armor. You know, I grew up in a pretty funky childhood. where actually teachers told me how stupid I was. I was told I would never even graduate high school. And I was like, fuck them. You know, I had such an issue with authority anyways.

So it was actually, that was my other motivation in life. I've heard that my whole life. Ashley has a problem with authority. It was on every report card, every thing. Right? Yeah, but teachers shouldn't be saying that. Teachers should not be saying that. But it did fuel me.

Yeah. And it, you know, I really internalized. I, even to this day, sometimes I go, like, am I really any good at this? And I hear like people read out my certifications. I'm like, ooh, I did a lot. And I don't always internalize that. That like I filled that gap or filled that hole where often I felt really stupid. But yeah, I did a lot of education to, you know, I thought I would like walk down the aisle and I'd get my PhD certificate.

And I'd be like, finally, I'm smart. Fuck them. And I never, like I walked down the aisle. They handed me my diploma. And I was like, oh. That's it. That's it. That didn't actually fill the hole that had been there for so many years.

And it actually was the same hold that I think was part of how I became really addicted to stress and chaos, really trying to mask a lot of underlying pain. I was reading your book and you talk a lot about not being comfortable in just a space of silence and being with yourself. So I can see masking that with chaos and drama around you. Yeah. And chaos was the ecosystem I grew up in. And it was everything I knew, whether it was my relatives who were addicted to drama.

Like, I come from a long lineage of those addicted to drama. And in, you know, an environment where we went from having money to having no money. And it was a lot of scarcity and fear. And, you know, not to shit on my parents or my family, but they came from an ecosystem of drama. Like, it was the way they knew how to parent. The way they formed in relationship was through big fights, big brats. big breakups, bigger fights, bigger love hugs. You know, it was inconsistent and dramatic at best.

Yeah, and you share this in the book, and that's how the book opens is really your story. And there is a lot of trauma and turmoil and drama. So it's understandable why you would go up like that and in turn that chaos and the drama would feel like normalcy. So I just even appreciate that you're like, this is going to end with me. But it just makes sense.

Like Rayne and I were saying there's certainly two types people. There's someone like you who did grow up with a lot of that. And then there's someone who grew up, had a perfect childhood, no trauma to speak of, and they're still dramatic. And it's like less patience for that. And if that's you, that's fine. But it's just like you're reading your story and you're like, well, this makes sense. And it makes it all the more impressive to recognize it and want to change it. Yeah.

You know, as I was doing my doctoral research, And I decided to do it on addiction and a drama because at some point I was like, well, I think I am the problem. Like I felt like the whole world was the problem for so long and I blamed so many other people and everyone else and every relationship was the issue, never me. And at a certain point, I collapsed and I didn't have the energy anymore to keep up those survival strategies, those coping mechanisms. And I was like, oh, fuck, all I have is a mirror. and that mirror is like clean as day and it's showing me that actually I'm I'm creating my own suffering and when I googled that as one does what does it mean when you create your own suffering it was a lot of really harsh articles about like drama queens and it was really like derogatory

and I was like hmm it feels like everybody knows someone addicted to drama It's never them, usually, but someone else. And yet there was never any research on it. There was nothing ever kindly said to unpack what is it that keeps perpetuating someone into turmoil, into stress, into stressful environments, into shitty relationships, into circumstances that just keep pounding them down so that they never feel like they're actually, you know, zestful and alive and feeling safe. You talk about this in the book. I do want to get into it in a little bit. bit, but about what people who are addicted to drama, what people say about them versus the reality of what's happening. And it's really unkind what people will say about them versus the intertermal

that's actually happening. And even acknowledging that you are the drama is really tough and probably a huge watershed moment because we were talking before about posting on Instagram and saying, like, how did you know that you were the drama? And you said most people are going to actually say that everybody else is the drama. And I thought that was a really interesting point that most people don't actually identify that it's them. So that's really fascinating to me. In any addiction, usually the addict is the last to know. Wow. Okay. Okay. And so this is exactly that, because it's all about they're using to fill the void and to mask the pain. And so whatever it is, that is the object of addiction, becomes so important that they're never going to see it as

the issue. They're going to see other people as the issue who are trying to stop them. Or, in this case, like, we're going to project that it's, it's you. It's your, you're, you're, you're You're the drama. It's not me. Right. You're the ones creating the issue, and I'm going to project and, you know, make it all about the room that we're in or the circumstances or the music at the grocery store or whatever I need to do. So let's talk about what drama addiction is, how you define it, what it's not.

Because, like, I love the tea. I love, no one loves gossip more than me. Nobody loves to, like, get something. I had to FaceTime Ashley about gossip the other day because I was like, text won't even do it justice. I would say to you, okay, so when you're in the celebrity, gossip, how do you feel? I like that you bring that up because I have been checking myself recently and like too much shit talking can start to feel toxic. Can feel toxic? Like we don't really going. We're not going in circles talking behind our friends' backs and things like that. But like we can

get going and I want to not be in like negative cycles. I will check myself and been like are we just on a loop about something. Even if it's just work related, even if it's somebody we're working with that we're just like, you know, like we hate, you know, and going back and forth. So I try to check myself

because it doesn't feel good. No. Like, it starts to feel bad in your body. And what's interesting, before it can feel bad, it can feel good. Because I see you smiling.

Of course you're doing it because it feels good. To start. That's me fucking honest as shit. Like anything else, like eating like a giant bad meal. It feels empowering. It feels like you're part of an in-group.

Yeah. All of those things are seductive as shit. Yeah. And it's all on that scale of drama. Because that elation, that feeling of like, mm, before it turns toxic, is part of the elation that those people with addiction to drama actually feel. When they're in something a little bit gossipy, when they're in the venting, when they're in the cycle of like chaos, it doesn't matter how big or how small.

The physiological feeling is good. Yeah. It actually feels powerful. And it's a pain relief. That's the interesting thing about drama that we never think about is because what we're talking about is like stress. and the attachment to stress and stress is a natural pain reliever. Like when you go for a run, right? And after a run, you might have had some aches and pains.

But during a run, you're releasing hormones to essentially block the pain receptors. That is because you're inducing a stress response. And so like, even gossip, all of these things, I go, how does it feel? And it's like, ooh, well, if I'm going to be fucking honest, it kind of feels good. I kind of feel like a sense of power, like this sensation, this rush. And you're bonding with people sometimes. And you're bonding because that's the other thing that stress does. It's a social glue.

Yes. So like there's research that shows like a research study that came out of Australia that a group of students actually who put their hand in freezing water enough to painful. They had a shared pain, shared stress. They did better in the following exercises to, together than the group who had their hand in neutral water. Oh. Because they bonded through shared pain, or as we call it, like, trauma bonding.

Right. Right. It's a social. Yeah, trauma is a social glue. Stress is a social glue. All of these things make it very seductive. Very, or we might call it, addictive. Okay.

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hair, neuterful.com, spelled N-U-T-R-A-F-O-L.com, promo code G-G-G-E-10. That's Nutraful. promo code GGE 10. So an addiction, you wrote a constant cycle of crisis, chaos, and chronicle high levels of stress. So is that how you would sort of differentiate between like fun little gossip and a real addiction to this in your life? Yeah. So I'll start with defining drama and then we'll get into it. Like drama is the unnecessary stress and turmoil.

It's like the exaggeration, the intensification of stories and voice tone and language and emotion. and all of that. And it's a disproportionate response towards what the situation needs. The amount of energy, amount of emotion around, and the attention is disproportionate to what's actually needed

to adapt to the situation. Okay. And so that's what we mean by dramatic. It's like out of proportion of what's needed to be adaptive. Okay. And it has a lot of different, you know, permutations, like just even using my voice strange, it's dramatic all of a sudden because it's

out of what's actually needed for us to be in conversation. Let me ask you, it's being dramatic can lend itself to being like a great storyteller or comedian or podcaster. So it's not always necessarily negative, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, my addiction to drama, I funneled it into being a performer. I was a really good performer. I could make the whole ecosystem and everyone in it feel what I'm feeling. Now, the shadow side of that is I'm here venting about Jill, our neighbor, and we're talking, and I'm like just cycling through it. I can't let it go. And I just keep talking about how Jill is such an asshole. And she makes me feel so bad and she doesn't care. And all of a sudden I'm like leaking that into the room. It's not self-contained. Right. And that's a big difference.

And you'll see that if you've ever been around someone who's like, has that propensity for drama. They're either pulling you in like a tornado into the drama or it feels like they're leaking it out and you're soaking it in like a sponge. And that's actually a real thing. It's what we call secondary stress because stress or drama is contagious. Yes. The way you feel when you're around people like this, that everything is taken to like another level. And we talk about when you walk away from an interaction with a friend sometimes and you're like, I don't feel good in my body. You're fucking exhausted.

You're like, seeped into you. And it also feels like people that have a total inability to actually just address the problem. Like you're going to talk about it. You're going to really escalate to this high level.

But like you could just take the necessary steps to fix this that a quote-to-quote normal person, normal healthy person would do. And there's a refusal to do that. Yeah. There's an inability to do it for sure. I guess I'm thinking more of the person that regardless of like the way

that they're leaking it into the room or the way they're storytelling or sharing with big whatever. Because I think like, you know, a lot of us say we're like dramatic at times, but like it's what's happening in their life. Like fight with this friend, argument with this person,

yelling, screaming, boyfriend, this and that. Like, it's actually happening. The way they're sharing it is one thing, but it's really like their life is a hot mess. And they're, A, either I guess they're thriving in it or B, everything bad happens to me and why me or a combo of both?

Yeah, well said. And that is the difference when we're talking about someone who's more addicted to drama where they're dependent on it. And it's a super strange thing to seemingly be dependent on something that makes your life worse. Right.

Well, that's what we're at the comfort zone. But that's what drugs do. I do think with age, it becomes harder to be friends with these people and have them in your lives. I think that, you know, if I look at my romantic relationships that I've gotten older,

I have no tolerance for it in my romantic relationships. I can't be with somebody that makes me feel like I'm in a constant state of chaos. Friendships, I have a lot of empathy for the people that I love, and so I will let those hang around longer,

but I've learned as I've gotten older to draw more boundaries, and I do want to talk about that later. But those people are really fun to be around in the beginning sometimes. Those friends, they have great stories. Something's always going on. Can you believe what this guy did to me? Can you believe with my friend, my boss? They can be really like a tornado of fun in the beginning.

Absolutely. Yeah. I work with a lot of CEOs, and I'm like, holy shit, your ability to really have a crowd feel you. And like, I see them inside. the office where on the outside people see them and they're so charismatic and they're so interesting and on the inside they're a red hot fucking mess like many of us and that's okay and i say that with a lot of love actually and it's important to have that distinction because

the dependency on it the need for it is because it is filling a void they are chasing the drama to avoid their trauma and that is the difference to like sit with themselves is excruciating. Because I often say this, and I used to be in a really volatile relationship, and I would say that I really did not like it, and it was not normal for me, but I still did it for a year. So I can't, I clearly didn't get out of it when I should have. But my relationship now is so nice and easy and, like, stable and secure, and there's really no conflict.

And I've said before, I think I know people that would not like it. They would think it's so boring. They would destroy that relationship. Or they would burn it to the ground. But like, yeah, they wouldn't be in it for one. long term and they wouldn't feel comfortable in it because I've had friends that have been like, how do you, how do you mean you never fight? What do you mean this is how you've handled this? And I'm like, hopefully you will grow out of your habits now, but you wouldn't be comfortable

in this relationship because it is like for the most part pretty drama free. But I also, like Raina said, sometimes you grow up into that, you know, you look back at relationships in your 20s and for me too. I was, you know, picking fights. This is what relationships are supposed to be like. They're supposed to be chaotic and volatile. And this is what I've seen in the TV and the movies and it's supposed to be up and down and back and forth and you just outgrow some of that but of course some people don't yeah when that's your homeostasis your baseline of being yeah then anything else feels unsafe you know yeah it's like i'm gonna snap for those who are not watching so if i i start snapping and there's a point in which it becomes the new normal

yeah okay and we're about there and then I stop and notice if you were looking for the sound. That's what happens for those who are addicted. The drama is the pain, the chaos around them is so the norm. And then when it's not there, there's an anxiety that gets produced. It's like, I'm looking for it and it's not there. So I unintentionally go seek or create it to fill that gap of like, oh my gosh, it's so uncomfortable because there's nothing there.

my home base, my normal, my homeostasis isn't present, so I'm going to go find it or create it. I like that you take a kind view of these people because you meet these people and it's always a problem with a significant other. They always have friend fights. They get fired from their jobs. It's always problem with their family. And you're like, how can you exist in this? Like, aren't you tired? Aren't you exhausted? Don't you hate existing in this? And you're kind of like, no, it's like, it's comfortable for them. It's comfortable and it's uncomfortable. Because I mean, the good news is I can speak from my experience of it. It's like, it is excruciating. It's like life sucks. But when you get those highs, like you get into that fight, you get that whole stress, you know, cortisol response,

and that makes you feel alive. It takes you from that numbness that you feel most of the time to suddenly feeling alive again, and it is delight. And you become dependent on it. You become attached to it to feel alive in this world. Otherwise, you just feel dead. You know, DeCardt used to say... Why do you want to live in New York? I'm kidding. I did. Why do you think I live there?

He's a New Yorker. We all live there. Just saying. Listen, I will say, if you are a New Yorker, you've spent enough time there. I mean, for me, it's six years, reign of 15 and how long you're there. You're a little addicted to drama.

Yeah. Abuse, actually. Extreme abuse. That is the most abusive relationship I've had. It's New York fucking city. I would leave New York City for work, and I'd miss it. And also, I'm like, thank God. I'm out of this.

But you're like, I missed my captors. Exactly. I identify with it. Exactly. I still want to go back all the time. All the time. Just to close the loop on how it feels so good until it doesn't. Like you dealt with physical, you end up in the hospital, right?

Like, I just want to remind people that, like, you could only do it so long and your body keeps the score. That's not an original thought. It's like a book. But it can be extreme. Like extreme amounts of stress really take a toll on your health. You talk to people would even say it could, doesn't say it. causes cancer, but it certainly doesn't help. You know, like your body will eventually stop being able to handle that level of stress.

And you share that in your story, too. So I do just want to say that. I don't think you can live like that forever, healthily. No. I mean, you get sick. And, I mean, I thought I had enormous capacity for stress. Right. I thought I was like, I could just tolerate so much.

But in reality, I had built up a tolerance like we do in any addiction. Like, you need more alcohol to get drunk. You need more cocaine to get high. I needed more stress to get the effect, the benefit, that pain relief, that sense of social bonding, that sense of energy. I needed more and more to get more to feel alive again. And so what I thought was capacity was actually a building of tolerance until I OD'd, literally, until I had so many things I was doing at the same time, over-scheduling.

I was doing multiple grad school programs. I was directing an opera at the same time. I was going through a divorce. I lost my health insurance in my grad school. Everything. And eventually I couldn't push anymore. I physically collapsed. Yeah.

You talk about somatic effects of drama addiction, including chronic fatigue, autoimmune disease, joint and muscle pain, other addictions. I mean, I always talk to Ashley. I say, like, I can feel it in my body, like when I'm super stressed out or upset. And, you know, the body does respond like this. And it's good that you at least acknowledge,

like I was filling every second of my day so I didn't have to be alone with myself almost. So the thing about like when we talk about feeling in the body, there's an interesting misunderstanding around stress, which is like when you start feeling like hot and you start feeling like a little bit of muscle tension, that's actually not a bad thing at all. That's a sign that you're getting prepared in your body

to adapt to the stressor. However, if we never leave that phase of the stressors, where it goes from that preparation phase to actually doing something with that energy, then we get in a chronic phase of being just a cascade of hormones that aren't going anywhere, a cascade of constant tension. And that's where we start to get sick. It's in our inability to mobilize our stress energy or stress hormones. And that's what happens in addiction and drama.

You're just filling the tank over and over again. hormone flushing, hormone flushing, hormone flushing with nowhere to go except these big eruptions. And those eruptions are not actually functional in terms of releasing the hormones. What ends up happening is like right after that big fucking like cathartic moment in the grocery store where we're screaming at someone, you know the one. Or we're in the car. Public fights with our partners. All of those things. Love to watch them though. Yeah.

Love to watch them. We watch them. We watch them on television all the time. Watch them in New York City. It's this huge discharge of energy. And then we feel like, but it's not actually a functional, it's actually a collapse. Yeah. And that collapse leads into very quickly a sense of boredom and anxiety and then we need another hit of stress again to get out of that anxiety, the sense of like, oh, my God, I feel numb again. A bored.

A bored. Yeah. I like that you talk about how it's. sort of experienced as boredom almost. Yeah. So you talk about some of the archetypes of addiction to drama. And before we were talking about this victim mentality, essentially, where you're like, every day I go on is terrible.

I'm always fighting with my friends. My boss is terrible. I hate everyone. Everything terrible happens to me. And I do encourage people to read the book. But you talk about a lot of archetypes, drama bystander, storyteller, martyrs, center stagers. I'm wondering what comes up a lot for you and people you talk to because there was what I really identified with was somebody who is constantly like other people's

therapist. And I'm really honored that Ashley and I have so many friends that were the first phone call. They want to talk to us all the time about something going on their life. What's your thoughts about this? I'll hear from people that are not like my top tier friends. And they'll share things with me like, I had an affair. And I'll be like, you can hear you hear about this. I'll listen.

And I'm really honored because Ashley and I've had so many great people on the show. And I think that we have a wealth of knowledge. But there does become a time where you've crossed the boundary of like, I am the sole receptacle of this information. It's constant. and we went from a place of I'm supposed to be this empathetic, non-judgmental sort of bystander to this where it's sort of like hindering my ability to move throughout my day. And that's happened to me quite a bit with friendships, and I've had to just learn better coping mechanisms and boundaries.

But for people that find themselves to be the receptacle of all that, do you see that a lot? Yeah, yeah, for sure. I mean, there are lots of different faces of an addiction to drama. And that's why I wrote the archetypes is because what's happening in the sort of therapist mode, where we're everyone's best friend, especially when they're spilling the tea, or were the cheerleader of like, oh, well, you better go fucking burn down their house,

you know, which I will admit I have been that friend. I have a friend like that who I call when I'm like, and it's very sparingly, and I call when I just need that like, well, that asshole. I'll help you hide a body friend. I'm going to help you burn down their house, steal their car. And I'm like, okay, that was really intense. I did need a little valid.

validation that was a little over the line of validation. We're good now. Right. You know that friend. You're like, go leave a comment on his Instagram or something. The next thing you know, she's like at his house. Door pies. Yeah.

We love that friend. And that friend is addicted to drama too. Well, they're doing it for them. Bro, totally. But totally. It's not in defense of you at some point. Oh, no. They're like, let's key his car.

And you're like, I don't want to destroy property. They're like, he just didn't. text me back. Right, exactly. Maybe we take a step back. Send his nudes to his mom. Do it now. So that friend is in the same line as the person who's like crisis hopping.

So in my office, I would see people we would process a crisis in the moment. They would start to settle down in their body. They'd start to breathe deeper, relax. And all of a sudden, bam, they're onto the next crisis. And I would go, whoa, can we pause here? What would happen if we just had a little? little more space between the last crisis and the next one. They're like, oh, you're right. And then they jump back into the crisis. So I called it crisis hopping. And like that's another archetype.

It's all the same physiological process, whether you are the best friend who's the cheerleader and the good listener and the martyr or whether you're the person revving, finding things on the outside, watching the news all the time and going, why is the world so bad? Why don't you turn off the fucking news. Yeah, I do that. I mean, just like the doom scrolling. Doom scrolling. Like, am I doing this? You know, like, I feel sick now. But let me go back in. But let me go back in. She likes to be all informed. Yeah. And that's a lot. You're like, but I care for one. And I want to be informed. But like to the detriment of my own mental health. Like you have to draw your own boundaries. Yeah. I had a client who, and this is the thing that is present with anyone in any of the

faces of addiction and drama is the moment they start to relax. something internally starts to rev themselves back up. It's called a revving reflex. And so they seek or create imagery in their mind, something to bring them back up to a state of activation, a state of stress. And that's actually for them a protective state. Because the moment they feel relaxed,

something inside says, you're too vulnerable to the next potential threat or trauma. And so this is not safe. It's not safe to relax. And so we've got to kick it up back into the place where you're more aware of your environment, which to get more aware of your environment, you have to actually induce more of a stress response. And a romantic relationship is that feeling of when things are going so well, you can't handle it. You're waiting for the other shoe to drop.

Something's going to happen. Which I'd like that you brought it back to its vulnerability. It's a vulnerability. I'm at risk. Yeah. So in your secure relationship that you have now, P.S. I'm super jealous. and I want you to be my model when I grew up about how to have a secure relationship.

Talk to him. He's responsible for it. It takes two to tango in a secure relationship. We do great, but I credit him with a lot. And we talk about, like, for many, that would feel like something is unsafe about that. And it's unfamiliar, unsafe for those addicted to drama.

And also, that vulnerability leaves them too open, again, for that next potential threat that hurt because a lot of the early wounding comes out of relational trauma. And so, like, for me to actually have my drawbridge down so that we can be together, feel so unsafe and yet I want it. So those who are addicted drama do two main things. They pull you into their drama to feel close, or they leak it out so that you're part of their ecosystem.

And that's the sense of proximity or closeness. that's the safest thing that they can do to feel connection. Because again, remember, social glue. But the moment we actually feel close, the alarm goes off, and they start to do whatever they need to do to pull the drawbridge up or blow it the fuck up. And that's fights. That's like starting to nitpick.

That's like, you know, when we start hearing our partners all of a sudden chewing too loud. Okay, that's just me. No, I can't. Of course. Whatever it is. Whatever it is, they're just tools to essentially make that person feel safer again. Because they are in a state of threat.

It's interesting. We're watching Love is Blind, UK. Do you watch Love is Blind? I watched 20 minutes of it for the first time that they're day. It's our favorite show. I just was like, no. It's all. We're obsessed.

But we'd love to analyze the relationships and the people. And there's one woman who, I really, liked it first. She's very open about her trauma. She was adopted and it's just kind of stuck with her. She seems to have obviously people who have adopted, I can't speak on behalf of them, but it seems to me she always has the trauma that comes

with that, feeling like you're unwanted and maybe there's some types of insecurities there. And I'm watching her and I'm like she's always got to start some drama. Like I feel like I can feel it coming through the screen and again, this could be editing and it's Netflix and everything. But there was like a moment where this guy walks in the room and she turns to her like partner and she's like

he looks exactly like my ex. And she says it two more times throughout the evening. And he doesn't really take the bait. He's a really secure kind guy, at least what we've seen in the edit. So did she escalate until he took some bait? Yes, and her facial expression and tone escalate. Escalate. And then he didn't take the bait three times.

And then she went and flirted with that guy, touched him in front of him. And again, we're talking about TV, but it is reality. I felt it of like what she was doing. Because I wouldn't have said it. Why would I bring my ex up to my partner? So what you're describing is called secondary stress response. Because stress is contagious. It is actually our most contagious physiological state.

So if I'm feeling love, you're going to feel it. We're designed to have that contagiousness. But we are primarily designed physiologically, evolutionarily, to perceive and actually have a mirrored response of each other's stress. So back in the day when we were cave people, you know, and I ran into the cave and you could see my eyes. They're darting. I'm sweating.

I can't speak. I'm out of breath. You're going to have the same physiological response so that your body gets prepared to run from whatever I was just running from. Carry forward thousands of thousands of years. We still have that mechanism. So your stress is actually my stress

in the same way that your co-regulation, your ability to stay stable, steady, present in yourself emotionally attuned actually becomes my co-regulation, my emotional attunement, unless you're addicted to drama. In which case, because that drawbridge I was talking about is tight,

that boundary is a wall, there is no co-regulation. And so when you're saying something safe, like if you go to that woman on that show, Love is Blind UK, can we have her on the show, y'all? I haven't think you are reaching out. Can we have?

The four of us. Yeah, let's do it on the show. On the show. On the show. On the show. Catherine, if you're listening. Is this your nightmare or your fantasy right now? I mean, I love it, but we watch her and we think that like, we feel bad for her.

That's somebody that needs to like address these problems. Like the way, when she said that to him and that is fighting words for most relationships. That guy looks like my ex-boyfriend. Isn't that funny? That's fighting words for most people. And to escalate two more times and be laughing and this like shit eating grin on your face. Don't you think that's crazy and prodding somebody over and over? Like that's a person to me that I feel like really needs help.

She's a case in this. exactly because they're shopping in the store he's making funny little jokes he's being completely sweet and she's like why are you poking at me or like it was like what are we it was like picking a fight is all I'm saying it was just like a very obvious thing but anyway so yeah we'll do it we'll have a intervention and if she was in a full drama state if you were to make things like hey we're okay here like using a calm voice feeling steady it wouldn't work it's like hey I really understand I hurt you I'm so sorry how can it wouldn't work?

They can't absorb. Is that because they see it as instigative? Like I can see somebody digesting that is like, you know when you're like, can you believe this? And somebody's like, why do you relax a little bit? You know, like I hate that. I find that very instigative. But it feels like they're not really digesting it like that.

They just can't hear you at all. They can't absorb the good because it does the same thing. The good induces the relaxation reflex, which doesn't feel safe. So that then stems that sort of revving response. It's all about. Safety isn't safe. Like our perception of safety isn't safe.

Relationships aren't safe. Like, co-regulation isn't safe. That's at the heart of it. Uh-huh. Which is so sad. Well, I mean, again, we think Love is blind is highly edited.

And anything could be edited in and out, but she is with a partner that's highly regulated. He seems super securely attached. She's not going to match her level of intensity. And she seems to just be like, well, I'm going to see you this fight. I'm going to raise you another one. So she can feel close.

And like that's the trick here is like she's just trying to feel close. But her way of feeling close is through shared chaos. Got it. Right. Really interesting. Because it's like, you know that friend, that one friend we all have who is kind of addicted drama and they're like they're talking about their venting. It's like if you don't match their energy, like, oh my God, what did he say?

And then he said what? Oh no, no, absolutely not burn down his house. I don't know why keep using that as the example today, but... No, it tracks. No, we like it. Yeah, that's great. Yeah, okay, good. And...

Big fan of Left Eye from TLC, RIP. I love you even more right now. Thank you for knowing the reference. Well, she's the number one. Number one house burner. God rest her soul. God rest her soul. It's like, if you're not matching that friend's energy, they feel like you're abandoning them.

Uh-huh. And but if you do match it, suddenly they feel like, oh, I, that sense, that deep sense of abandonment that I carry, that sense that no one actually sees me, cares about me, feels me, is suddenly gone for a split second. It's enabling, right? It's enabling. Yeah, that's what I call drama bonding.

The difference between trauma bonding and drama bonding. Okay. So trauma bonding is, it's actually our natural physiology. We bond over shared pain like I talked about before. We connect. We find through the shared angst or pain or, or issues that we have something common and that makes us feel closer. Drama bonding is what all of our teenage nieces and nephews are doing right now, or at least

mine. No, all teenagers. All teenagers. And it's when we're putting logs on each other's fire. It's when we're enabling. It's when we're not helping them actually settle or feel more calm. It's when we keep upping the ante of each other's crisis. I see this in romantic relationships.

It's not my own. I don't really relate to it. Honestly, I haven't since my early 20s. But where you're like, how are you still in this? It's this constant cycle of chaos. And I guess the highs just feel so extremely high because the lows are so bad and you're very comfortable in that. But you talk about cycles of creation and destruction and the triangle of drama.

Can we talk about that? I find it so fascinating in relationships because for me, again, with friendships, I'm much more tolerant of it. But romantic relationship, I would be out. quickly because I don't like that feeling in my body. No. But let's talk about people that are comfortable in this, quote unquote, comfortable. Yeah.

I mean, again, it's like we're reenacting. We're bringing back the familiar ecosystem of our past into the present because that's what feels steady, even amongst the pain. It's, again, that snapping exercise, it's like, oh, I could leave that person and I might leave them for a couple days, but then I start to miss that sense of chaos, that sense of familiarity. And I feel alone. I feel like the world's going to be over. I don't have a future.

Because their chaos was also doing something for me physiologically. It was giving me a sense of power, aliveness, and pain relief. And those are the things that I'm actually missing. I'm not missing that person who, like, calls me an asshole every morning. Talking about an ex. Right. I don't miss them. But do I miss the sort of highs?

and when I talk about the highs, I mean actually a high, like a drug-induced high of the stress, which is like, I feel that dopamine reaction. I feel like, oh my gosh, I'm in power.

I feel alive. Because when you have felt so self-abandoned, so numb for most of your life, anything that gets you out of that is going to feel so significant and you're going to chase it. It's interesting to me because I feel like a lot of people after a breakup,

of course you miss the person, and you just want to text them everything funny, and you want their insights, and that's the hardest part about a breakup for most people, but you're saying that this type of person really misses the bad stuff. Yeah. It's the chaos.

And not to, like, over-science it when we break up, but, like, what we actually miss is the shared biological rhythms. That's what happened. I know. I know. I'd like it to be more romantic, but it's not.

We love that. Totally. You know, it's like, when we are in relationships, we start to sink biological rhythms, even circadian rhythms, like our sleep cycles. All of those start to, you know, come into cohesion. And when we break up, it's like ripping it apart, often very quickly.

And it feels like we don't know ourselves because we just got ripped in half. We had a guest and we did not have a good experience. And our audience pretty much knows this. But we asked him what he had to explain trauma bonding. And his answer was the wackest thing I've ever heard. I was like, he was like, when you really have a good sex with somebody for the first time, we were like, sir. Wait, sorry, what? He said when you were really good sexual connection, he was out of his mind.

He said when the first time you have sex to somebody and it's like explosive run. And we were like, did you answer the question or no? I was like, did I just have a stroke? I don't know this person. We'll tell you later. Tell me later. I want to hear the tea. But what they're kind of talking about is what I've called trauma tingles.

Oh. So it is a thing. What's he spot on? No, no. I'm not going to give him the benefit. No, he was worse. He was full of shit. He was full of shit.

But let's talk about trauma tingles. So it's the magnetism. It's the attraction to someone who will help actually recreate our own dramas, our reenactment cycles. And so, like, that's the trauma tingle. We keep playing footsy, and I'm so into this. I'm getting trauma tingles. Trauma ting. Every time you touch my foot.

Can't you have a good sexual connection just because you do? We did. Just, oh. Is that not sex? Wait, was that not sex? Sex? Is that trauma bonding? Are you guys watching? I'm gonna head out. No, we're a boy arresting.

Oh. Her house is right here, so just had enough. Do you know, there's a... A well-known porn star who lives next door to you who films their content there? No. What? You live next to a porn star?

Yeah, we'll talk about it later. No! Oh, not me. Is his name little Dickie? He lives right by me, too. That's me? Yeah, he does. But just to clear it up, like,

can't you have a just strong sexual connection with someone for the first time? Because you're just super attracted to, them and that's what it is? Yes. It doesn't have to be negative. No. I think we cut that chunk of the episode because it made no sense.

Like I think we're like, what if you just... So no one knows what we're referencing. What if you think they're hot? We're doing you a favor, sir. We're going to put on the bonus material, that chunk that got deleted. We can ruin his career by releasing the unreleased footage. Exactly. But it's like maybe you're just into the same shit sexually.

Maybe your bodies just go together well. Look, I think it's, again, awesome clickbait. Like, I'm going to switch subjects for a moment to talk about how clickbait has become. the new drama material. Yeah. And so there's something called an attentional economy. It essentially means attention is the hottest commodity we have in our economy. It was a theory designed that came out in the 80s.

And it's basically like whoever can capture and maintain someone else's attention owns the economy. Yeah. And so great theory, really helpful, except it doesn't actually go into the neuroscience of it, which is how do you get and maintain someone's attention, and that's through inducing a stress response. When you create a fear response or a stress response, whatever we want to call it, it activates the parts of our brain that go,

hey, pay the fuck attention to whatever this stimulus is because this is important. And so that's why we see over-sexualization, over-dramatic language, tone, really intense imagery now on the news. This is Fox News in a case study. This is what they understood and this is what they did. It's brilliant in a very manipulative, dangerous way. Well, I see it on TikTok all the time.

We talked about, you know, we overcorrected. There's all these people giving dating and relationship advice and the overuse of buzzwords like narcissist, pathological liar, sociopath, gaslighting. And by people that don't really, I'm not really qualified to diagnose people with that, but they'll say like three ways that he's gaslighting you. And you're like, oh, there's a list. And I heard the word gaslighting. And now I'm hooked.

There's just a lack of nuance and context. We as a culture are living our life to tell the story of it as opposed to live our lives anymore. And we are on this rat trap, this hamster wheel of getting that attention. And the mechanisms or tools we have to do to get the attention are to create awe, anger, or fear. Those are the three most shareable. If you can induce that feeling is much more likely that it will be shared. And so you induce that feeling. you induce that feeling, and then you have some content that doesn't induce that feeling

because you feel like not being dramatic that day or whatever, you don't get the likes, you don't get the shares, and you feel a withdrawal from the dopamine. It is a cycle where, you know, back in the day, before social media, addiction and drama really formed out of the households in smaller pockets. Now it's been replicated on a mass scale as all the world is a stage through social media, through the news, through other media sources. Today we're talking a lot about people that kind of live these chaotic lives,

but I feel like I'm thinking of some certain people that are always that victim. And it might not feel so chaotic, but everything bad happens to them. And I don't know if we've given that person enough attention. So can we take a few minutes on the victim of like, it's not always screaming, fighting,

it's just like everything bad happens to me, my job, my dating life, all of that. Can we just like speak to that? type of person a little bit? Yeah. Yeah, and that's a beautiful example of the different faces of the addiction. Same physiological mechanisms, but different outputs. The person who's always in the victim stance is another version because they're still getting that hit, but essentially that the world is against them, that it isn't safe, that there's a way in which everyone and everything is out to get them. And some of that is like, again, if they're not able to absorb the good,

then everything is bad. So if you've had a trauma, one of the things that's really interesting is your physiology of your senses, like the way you see, the way you hear, the way you smell, the way you touch,

all changes to compensate. All of the compensations are to be more on the lookout for the next potential trauma. So if that is your vision, if that's the way you hear, if that's the way you smell from now on, you're going to miss a lot of the cues of safety

and be hyper-tuned to the cues of danger in the world. And so it's the same thing of like they're unable to be with the good. Yes, which is where that feeling of everything bad happens to me and you zoom out and you're like, but bad things happen to everybody. And that's not everybody's response to this. But I'm thinking of someone we know where it's always everything terrible. I know she's had some trauma in her life and I feel for her, but there is no positive. And I'm sure her friends, Raina included, has been like, but what about this good thing you have going on? And immediately something's wrong with that immediately shit on it so there is actually no absorbing of the good everything's

heavy you can't everything's heavy if you can't really be around it and then it reinforces that nobody likes them yeah yeah right nobody understands me nobody understands them it's the cycle it's the same fucking cycle and it's sad and it just is another face of it also just you know before i go straight into the breaking the cycle it's like another version that most of us would maybe because a lot of us who are listening will be like, I know that person. This isn't really me. This isn't really me. Until I say the next thing, which is, have you ever taken a bath?

Have you ever gone to a meditation class? Have you ever listened to the calmness of my voice right now? I hate baths. And started to think about work. Or you started to get into a fight with someone in your head that hasn't happened. or you start planning in your schedule, the things that rev you away from the current possibility of softening, of yielding, of stillness, of peace, of ease.

And at what point do you realize that's you interrupting your own peace, interrupting your own stillness, and you as the motor and the mechanisms, it's not you as the whole person of who you are, but the mechanisms to which you've created and adapted in your physiology is the source of the suffering. Yeah, I mean, some of that surely resonates. Yeah. And you have to look at your life.

You go over your life. Some people have to be like, I've taken on too much. Yeah. And how do I pare it down? And why did I? Yeah, why did I? And what happens when I do pair it down? Do I get bored?

Do I get anxious? Is what comes, you know, what... Scarcy mindset? Money. All of that. And that's why I really. talk about it as a scale of an addiction to drama. It's like, yes, the extreme ones we know, we've seen them on television, great television, right? Totally. Best television.

The meme, it said, like, I'm just sorry, I'm just really out of it today. It's like, I've said this for three weeks straight or something. Like, I feel like I've been that person where I'm like, I'm just so stressed, but like I've been saying this for three months. Yeah. But I like what you talk about looking in the mirror, because if everything else seems to be the problem. It's you, boo. It is, but what's better than finally acknowledging and starting to cope, you know? I'm getting marinating in it. So can we get into that?

Yeah, I mean, I was just say by the third person who was addicted to meth that I dated, I realized I was the problem. No, really? I dated one meth guy, but he was off of it. You're like, maybe I want to do math. It's definitely not where I went. But I was like, I'm seeing the pattern here. And what is the common denominator?

it's me. Right. And at that point, that is the entrance to the first phase of actually healing when you go, despite all the trauma,

which is not your fault. It's not your fault. Not even the addiction to drama is your fault. But that doesn't mean you can't gain agency over what you carry with you

that isn't your fault. Absolutely. And I love it. You said that. Of course, what happens to you is not your fault. We read this quote on the show once that, you know,

the things that have happened to you are not your fault, but they are your responsibility. Yes. And I loved that. And here's the hard part for us, who are the bystanders of those with addiction drama. It's not their fault.

Yeah. And that's so hard for a lot of us to actually, because we are being so affected by those addicted to drama. And the moment we can go, this isn't their intention to harm me. This is their reflex that they're not in control of. That already gives us a little more breathing space to not be so pulled in.

Okay. When we stop internalizing it and making it like a personal attack. Because despite it actually being an attack at us sometimes, it's not what the greatest intention is. But the greatest intention of what they're trying to do is trying to actually fill the void inside them. Okay. But for us who are a drama.

Yeah, you have these great. Let's go through some of these. And I mean, it sounds like it's a long process. It's a long process because you have to identify it. which is, again, those with the addiction are the last to know often. And so you have to go, I think, I think it might be the drama. Or I might, there's something in me that's not letting me find peace, stillness, ease. There's something in me that doesn't just allow me to take that bath and enjoy it.

And when I can do that, I can start to recognize where I'm revving, where I'm starting to even exaggerate or intensify a situation. And sometimes I can ask a friend of like, I felt like my decibel. of response was at an eight, what do you think was needed in this circumstance? I actually did that the other day. I had a big response to something

on a meeting, and I felt terrible afterwards, and I called up to the other people that were on the meeting, and I felt like my decibel was at a seven, and really deserved a three. And they were like,

no, it actually deserved a seven. Oh, okay. And I was like, oh, shit, that's validation. I love that. That was warning. Maybe I'll do eight next time. And they'll do, hey, that's okay.

That felt feel good. That is a good feeling that where I'm like, Raina, did I overact? And she was like, no, you know what? You should have gone harder. And I'm like, there's that friend again. He is car. Burned out his house. But having a friend to check in that you really trust.

Because when I was going through this process, I would ask a lot of my friends that were not addicted to drama. They were like, that was at an eight. It really deserved a three. And I would start to go, I don't even know what a three is. Can you show me? Like, I would literally have to ask people to model. what a more like stable response looks like

one that really was the right amount of energy and tension and focus. Wow. And that was one of the ways because I had no modeling of what a normal response should be. That is so vulnerable to just say to somebody like what would your response have been to this? Because I was talking to a friend,

she went to just going to a couple of therapy with her boyfriend and she said they keep rehashing these fights in therapy and that she was like both of us are acting quote unquote rational. And we're just reacting. acting authentically to ourselves. So you don't even know what a three is if eight is rational to you. No. And I mean, this could also be something a therapist could help with. Yeah. Absolutely. You know. Ideally, a therapist who's not addicted to drama. Right. I'm sure there are those. I have a friend who've gone therapy. That's why they go into therapy.

I know. I have a friend who went to therapy and she was talking about like, should she break up with a partner? And I was like, oh, what did your therapist say? And he basically said, yeah, burn down his house or something extreme. And I was like, you need to cancel that therapist. That is ethically not okay to see it. Not at all. Yeah, straight to jail. Yeah, straight to jail. So, yeah, starting to recognize the pattern.

And once you recognize the pattern, you can sort of lift up the hood of the car to look what's actually in the engine, so to speak. Once you get rid of all the patterns, the strategies to keep revving yourself up, to keep yourself stressed, activated, or scheduling in, you know, toxic relationships, whatever it is that gets you constantly rubbed up in life watching the news, whatever it is, then you start to be able to separate that and go into the actual trauma, the fuel that's in the engine.

And when you can take out the fuel of the engine, suddenly those reflexes, those mechanisms to, you know, rev up, don't feel so important anymore. When you are starting to address the trauma, which is basically blocking you from actually receiving or feeling another human being or yourself,

and you start to be able to open that up and feel the presence of another human being to be co-regulated with, supported by. Suddenly you don't need all of these old tools that were built in or brought in as a means of survival. And then from there, you know, there's the identity,

like letting go of the identity of being the victim. If we grew up with, I have always been a victim, even if we don't feel it anymore, we can still run that script in our head. And so starting to recognize where you have agency, where you have power, where you're not a victim, and what the effect is of wearing that name tag that says victim everywhere in the world. I think of this time, like, I just feel like the stuff that resonates with me is just the stress of working and too much on your plate. But it's like, I want to be successful. I've been on my own for a long time. We run two companies. We have a lot on our plate. We have people that work for us.

We have people that rely on us. And I used to just, if I wasn't doing something, I felt like I should be. And, you know, maybe weekends excluded. But I remember this one time. And I was like in the car with Raina. And we were like driving back from a show. I mean, we performed at night. You know, we're out working. I'd hooked up this guy. And I was just like, we were driving back to L.A. from San Diego. And I was like, in my head, I was like, all I want to do is just fuck off and go drink, go have and enjoy myself, like rehash the night. And I was like, but we have to do this. We have to do this. And Randy goes, no, you don't. do you realize you own the company? And this, I never really had someone, like, give me permission like that.

I, like, she was like, let's call it. I was like, I wish it was a Friday because I just wish it was like the end of the week. We could go into the weekend. It was a Wednesday. She was like, who fucking cares? Just the, it's going to happen. Like, if something we needed to get done, we would have got it done. But somebody being like, you're allowed to relax and the, you know, the companies aren't

going to fall apart. And like, I just always think of that moment. And the way it felt in my body was like, wait, I can. I can just fuck off. We can just get back to LA. I'm always trying to get her stuff working. Get drinks. And then we did.

And it was the best day. And you rewired something in that moment. I really did. And there are moments where I'm sitting just doing nothing, whether it's watching TV or reading or something. And I'm like, I have to like sit with myself and be like, don't reach for the phone. Don't check your email. Don't start thinking of your to do list. And it has been some rewiring.

She needs to work at all the time. It'll be like 9.30 p.m. on Sunday. And now she's like, what are we listening for work? And I'm like, I'm half asleep. I can't have like a business response right this. But then when I'm able to take a vacation, trust me when I say this isn't me just like refusing to look in the mirror. It does feel amazing.

The best times are when we really are done. Yeah. We're relaxing, whether we're on vacation or not or it's just a random Saturday or Sunday. And it feels orgasmic. I mean, it feels exceptional. The question I would ask is, could you also feel some sense of ease in the breaks before the completion. And that to me would be the difference is,

do I have to work, work, work, work, work, work, work. And then I get to collapse into vacation because I ran myself so hard. And that's the driver that I'm still talking about here is like it's what happens when we start to make a little space in that work, work, work, work. It's like, do I feel anxious? Do I feel scarcity?

Do I feel like what actually comes up? up or can I just settle into a pause too knowing that that will recuperate me into the next work? I can, but it's been a journey and like I work on it. So it doesn't necessarily come naturally. Yeah. But I do do it. I'm like, go do this yoga class or sit and drink this coffee. And Raina helps a lot. I think Raina is really good at this. Well, I love lists. And I just, I really like to make a list. I know that I have a problem. I can address it this way. Here's the list. Here's how I'm going to do it. Here's how I'm going to lean on to help me with those things. And I'd try. And I'd trust myself that I will take care of it and we'll get done. And so I have to force myself,

go take a walk. The list will be there when you get back. Like this is a problem. It's like a cloud. You could acknowledge the cloud. The cloud will go by. And, you know, we'll come back to it. I make a lot of lists. And I know that I am smart and capable. And my business partner is smart and capable. And we will get it done together. That's some real shit. Like, that's some real, like, skill set and capacity to be able to interrupt that sort of urgency or interrupt the thing that is our main driver and to feel like you have agency. You know, one of my favorite sayings I learned in college was fuck it. I should, I was an acting student, and I was a miser technique class with Terry

Simmer, Knickerbacher. And he was like, you need, I was such an anxious camper. And he was like, you need to learn the art of fuck it. And I was like, I don't know what that means. And then one day I had to do my laundry. And this was New York City, so we don't have laundry machines in our buildings or our apartments. They are like usually within a good mile. Yeah.

And five floors up. It's like, have fun walking this downstairs. And most of them are broken. Of course. Yeah. Bring your quarters. But I was walking down the street with my laundry bag. And like I noticed that like I had tons of underwear, which, you know, for a 20 year old,

I was embarrassed. And I was like really anxious. I was like, I should turn around. I should cover the underwear up. And I heard this voice in my head that said, fuck it. And I just yelled it out loud, as one can do in New York City. And I said, fuck it. Someone was like, shut up.

Yeah, basically. Someone was like, fuck you. Fuck you. But it was like this moment where it actually rewired something that I had permission to change my thought process, to change the anxiety, to change this sense of like how I think things have to be. or how I need to be and it's so fucking empowering

when we can interrupt it and that's also part of the first phase and the second phase of our addiction is we have to interrupt it the moment we start to read the moment we go oh I'm working but I want to take a pause

no but if I take the pause something bad will happen interrupt it I have to finish that list no you don't fuck it see what will happen what will happen is it will unveil this sort of motor underneath

that keeps you away from yourself. I like just even framing that these things are just small changes along the way because this might feel very overwhelming to someone that is like, God, I've listened to this now and I realize I'm addicted to drama and I never really knew that before.

Maybe this podcast opened my eyes and it's like, A, it won't happen tomorrow but like little by little like incremental changes. Like I would assume, right? I mean, it's just like there is hope and who you are today is not who you have to be tomorrow or a year from now.

And it's not like a death sentence. So perhaps you people, could change even within the relationships that you're in now, you know? Yeah. And at the end of the rainbow is that you get to feel more of life because you get to feel more of your own body, more of your own emotions, more of everything that are not at a decibel of 10 to be able to feel anything. And that makes life so much more rich.

And when you're around friends who also are able to do that, life feels more rich. You're able to share the nuances of intimacy and connection and relationship without it having to be at a decibel of 10. to feel like there's something happening. I love that. I love it. Well, Ashley and I loved your book, and we really encourage people to read it

because you have great quizzes for yourself to check in with yourself. If you're the drama or somebody else is the drama and you summarize each chapter. I mean, it's really so well written. We really encourage people. It's called Addicted to Drama. What's next for you?

What are you working on? I'm working on two new books. Yay! About in the same thing? No, very different. I didn't think so. Yeah, okay. Can we know or no?

I'm not allowed to release the title of the other one. And I don't know how to talk about it without releasing the title because it's the subject. I see. Okay. But I will say it's the science of how Stella got her groove back. As in younger men? I know. The movie.

Is this for me? Take a girls trip. That's the book. I recently watched the movie because I was like, how did Stella get her group back? And then it was so just, I was like, oh, it's Tay Diggs. I was like, so we all have to go fuck Tay Diggs. Okay. But what if it wasn't Tay Diggs?

What would be the science of how we get our group back? Anything to do with a vacation in fucking someone or no, it's a different vibe? I'm open to that. I'm open to that as a possibility. That's what the book is called fucking on vacation. So we saw Angela Bassett in the airport and it was so... Wait, actually, I must say I went to that Jamba Juice. I went to that one at the airport the other day where we saw her.

We saw her to Jomba juice and then we all ended up in the lounge and she had a little private area in the Delta lounge like around like the stanchions. We're like, like, that's so awkward. It's just her and there. And it's like open. It was very funny. It was like very like velvet rope. But she sat in front of me on the plane and I was like,

looking for a movie to watch. I was like if, how Stella or Groverbeck is on this fucking plate or waiting to Buck'sale, anything that she's in, if I could watch it right now and neither of which were on it. And I was like, that would have been the most iconic moment to watch that with her.

I would have had to tap her. Like, hey girl, look what I'm watching. I've been like, I made that movie so many years ago. Okay. So, I mean, you don't have to spoil the book,

but it's how to like get your groove back. Yeah, it's how to get your groove back. Okay, I love that. Essentially, it's the science. Okay, you must come back. Okay. Which I'm really excited about. Yeah, you'll come back.

Doing a lot of fun new trainings on the Embody Lab. We're teaching trauma therapies and all these different type of therapy modalities, how to get good boundaries, stuff like that. Okay. Yeah. Your website is fantastic, or can people find your website and your podcast and everything. It's Dr.Scottlions.com, D.R. Scott Lyons.com, which is different than Scottlions.com, which was the porn star.

Do not go to that. Or if you want to go to that. After you go to your website. If you want to know what you were referring to earlier as the, and the body shaming. But he's her neighbor. I'll give it an apology blowdrob later. That's so generous of you.

You're a generous human. Yeah, it's for me too. Like blow drops. And my socials is Dr. Scott Lyons as well. Well, great. And you guys know where to find us. Girls Gotta Eat.com. Tour tickets.

We cannot wait to see you guys in the tour on the No Crumbs tour starting of September. Girls Got to Eat podcast on Instagram and TikTok. I'm Ash Hess. Raina is rana. com. Our company Vives Only,

Vivesonly.com. Subscribe and YouTube. Share this episode. with a friend who needs it. And we will see you Thursday. Have a good couple days, guys.