Girls Gotta Eat - Are Your Dating Expectations Unrealistic? feat. Behavioral Scientist and Dating Coach Logan Ury

Episode Date: November 21, 2021

Ever wonder what you're doing "wrong" (read: against your own best interest) in dating? We are breaking it down in this eye-opening episode with behavioral scientist, dating coach, and author Logan Ury. We're discussing the three types of unrealistic daters and how to combat the tendencies that are working against you, how to pick a long-term partner, if you're too picky or not picky enough, and what you should/shouldn't compromise on. We're also discussing best practices for the apps, a scientific strategy for meeting people IRL, and why you should (almost) always go on a second date. Before Logan joins us, we're chatting about breakup season still being in full effect, scaring your friends/partners, fresh recs, and more. Enjoy! Follow Logan on Instagram @LoganUry and visit her website for more. Follow us @GirlsGottaEatPodcast, Rayna @Rayna.Greenberg, and Ashley @AshHess. Visit our website for tour dates, merchandise, and more. Get tickets to our Holiday Spectacular Livestream HERE! Thank you to our partners this week: Living Proof: Go to livingproof.com/gge + use code GGE to get 10% off your first purchase. Buffy: For $20 off your order, visit buffy.co and use code GGE. Pretty Litter: Use promo code GGE for 20% off your first order at prettylitter.com. Calm: For a limited time, get 40% off a premium subscription at calm.com/gge. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

And so I've broken this down into a framework called the three dating tendencies. And so each one of them has unrealistic expectations about something. What up? Girls got to eat. Welcome back. Brittany's free and it's Thanksgiving week. Let's fucking go. Favorite holiday of the year, guys. Can't stress it enough.

I am so excited. You guys are going to start tagging us on all your beige photos. All the food, the whole spread, everything beige. Bage carbs. It's your tagline. I just, I love it. Even the turkey's beige. Everything's beige.

Just keep tagging us in those Thanksgiving meal photos. I'm so excited. Raina was just complaining about you guys sending her too many suit memes, but tag her in every Thanksgiving plate. She'll repost. I will do hundreds of repost. Like people are like, I follow back. Raina's like, I repost Bage Carbs. Yeah, don't ever send me a meme again. I'm all set.

Raina Bage Carbs, Greenberg. Do you want to be tagged in them? I would want to be tagged in everything. Tagged in stories, tagged in comments. Like, tagged me all day. It's the, it's the clogging of the DMs. But I just feel so honored that people are eating them, you know,

the most famous meal of the year and they're thinking about us. It's really flattering. So we ask every year, please do we want to see every single thing that you are eating, all the beige things you're putting inside of your body. And we finally get to spend like holidays our families again. I know. I know. What I really want, and I asked for this two years ago and no one has ever done it is I want someone to go into like their childhood bedroom and do like a confessional about how much they hate their family or like something that's going down at the like dinner table and I want to like know about it. But maybe you, You guys can just send that to me privately.

I'm here for it. You can send that to me. Not I want to watch. I want to watch people have like holiday meltdowns. Or like I want someone to be filming their like really blacked out uncle at dinner. Like fall over, spill his wine. Like I want that content. I want to watch me to have a fucking meltdown that they didn't come home last year for Thanksgiving.

And it was the best Thanksgiving they ever had and they camp. I'm never coming back here again. Right. Like a lot of people last year did Friendsgiving. And I feel like they were like, I'm never going home. good. That's how I felt. I loved Friendsgiving. No one was screaming at me. No one was... You got a rash. I did a full-body rash. Emily tried to poison me. I drank orange wine. And we were with this guy who I had a crush on and I looked in the mirror and my face was broken out in hives. And I was like, I have to go. Thank God we're still masking it.

Raina's looking forward to a rash-free Thanksgiving. I did do something to make the holiday season. I'm safe for. I got my booster shot two days ago. Okay. I feel great. Boosted. I was looking for. forward to feeling sick. I bought all the things. I bought Tylen. I was looking forward to taking a sick day. I feel great. That's not everybody's experience, but I got it. I got the Moderna. It's the same thing I got originally. I'm Madonna on Madonna. I got Madonna on top of Maderna. It took two seconds, got it at Walgreens. I, you know, I feel good about it. I'm excited. Everybody else we know got a little sick for like 12 hours, but I had no symptoms. And that's it. I'm boosted.

Yeah. Love to hear it. I guess I'll do that too. I mean, I'll do it, but I'm like, really? Well, you got the very. Well, you got the very. Vax a month after me because I have high blood pressure, so I went earlier. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. You were, um, immunocompromised. I am immunocompromised. You really were. You didn't have to lie. All those people like, everyone else did. I was like, no, I'm actually on blood pressure medication. Yeah. So you have a little more juice in you. Yeah. Do it. We have some really exciting stuff coming up. Do you guys know new merch is out. We love it. You guys have storm the store.

It's beautiful. We have tons of dogs. merch for you guys. We have bandanas and bowls. We have sets. I love you. I ask for more girls girls got to eat merch. We have done more girls got eat merch. We have Live Your Truth. So guys, check that out. It's on our website. Girls Got Eat Podcast. Shop. Holiday ordering deadlines are December 3rd and you can get gift cards if you're worried about things arriving in time. And then holiday live shows. Yeah. So we're coming up on our holiday live shows in New York and Chicago and just wanted to run through a quick checklist. If you guys are coming, you know, our shows are interactive. We do all kinds of stuff. These shows are going to be different

than every other show we've had this year. They're always really different. They're the holiday shows. It's what it is. So a couple things. If you are listening and you're a single guy or you're coming with a single guy who's available and he wants to get some attention, let us know. Email us, stories at girls got ePycast.com or you can sign to the DMs because I don't foresee us being inundated. But we love single guys of the shows. We love, you know, seeing what's out there. And if you're bringing one or you are one and you're listening to this, let us know in advance for New York and Chicago. And if you have any crazy stories, holiday related or not, we can do either way. And you're coming to New York or Chicago that you want a very special male guest to mansplain to you.

Maybe in front of the crowd, who knows, just email us stories at girls got a podcast.com. So in general, if you're coming to a show, you have a wild story, especially if it's holiday related stories at girls got a podcast.com. Just let us know if you're coming to New York or Chicago. And lastly, listen, I mean, we had you guys dress up in Boston. fucking amazing. We brought everybody on stage. So if you're feeling it and you want to do sexy Santa or elf or Mrs. Claus, whatever you're feeling, you want to dress up. Dress up. I'm going to do it. You are? I'm going to do it. If I can get my outfit off quick enough. If you guys commit to doing it, I will commit to doing it. Bring your titties out. Maybe we'll bring up on stage and do a whole

competition. You never know. Yeah. I mean, my, my vision is all the Santas on state. Like a Santa con So if you guys want to do it, just do it. Yeah. You know, I think people are like, what? Are other people dressing up? Who cares? You're going to be the coolest people there because we want to know about it. So also, you know, if you're like, we're doing a whole big group costume thing, we're doing

Santa, we're doing elves. Message us with that too. Let us know in advance. And also you want to roast your friends that you're coming with. Any crazy stories, who you're coming with. Again, like, you're coming to New York or Chicago. You're like, I'm coming with my girlfriends. Can we roast them?

You know, in a kind way. We're not trying to throw him to be on the bus or embarrass anybody, obviously. but you're coming with your, I don't know, ex-husband and your new husband. Yeah, we want to know. Let us know. Give us a tea. Yes. So people always message us and say, can I have a shout out at the show?

Yeah, if you talk shit on the person that you're with, tell us a story. It's got to be big. You want to propose the show? Let us know. Yeah. Don't just be like, shout me on. It's my birthday. It's like friend's birthday.

Well, what was the last dick? She sucked in an alley. Right. How about that? Has she gotten black out and pissed in an alley recently? Only alleys, actually just stories about Alice. Did you say Allie, too? Yes, it sucked a dick in an alley.

You said that? Yeah. Okay. How did I say, how did we both say that? You heard it. You shouldn't realize you heard it. But is that why I said it? Maybe.

Anything that your friends have done in an alley. She sent it to us. If their name's Allie. We'll do a whole segment called Alley. Because she's always ended up in an alley. All right. And then if you guys haven't gotten tickets to all the other live shows, we've coming up. We have a ton of stuff coming up.

There are still just literally a couple of 30 tickets left in Dallas. Washington, D.C., very, very few left in San Diego and San Francisco, a couple in L.A., Portland, and Seattle's almost sold out as well. So lots of stuff. And if you guys did not get tickets for any of these,

they're sold out, you're like, oh my God, I have to see the live show. I want to come to New York and Chicago. We are streaming the New York Holiday Show straight into your living room. Stream into your screen, live. from the Beacon. You guys can do what you guys did when we did the virtual shows. You can have a little party and watch together with your girlfriends or your girlfriends or your grandparents, your dog,

whatever. We're so excited. This is going to be an incredible show. Yeah, we just love seeing what you guys did last year with all the live streams. You guys really, it's like so many parties. You cooked. You do girls got to eat themed drinks. You made tequila. You didn't make tequila. You bought tequila. But you had spread. We just stilled our own tequila. You flavored it yourselves with like whatever it is, Lecroy. you can get tickets to that live stream right up for the next couple weeks, right on Girls'Gattypodcast.com as well. Yeah, you're not going to want to miss it.

So grab those tickets. And then one thing, I do want to do a correction. We are not almost sold out in Portland. And these bitches made us at a second show. No, no, you were just saying Seattle was almost sold out. Most of them are almost sold out. Listen, guys, I'm just going to be real with you. Every city except Portland is almost sold out.

Like by the time this airs, it might be. There's very few left in San Diego, D.C., Seattle, like Rayna said, Portland, get your shit together? we added a show, you little bitches. We're coming there and we're going to roast you and you're going to want to see it. So, no, I love Portland. You know, I love Portland.

You know, I love Portland. But if you guys couldn't get tickets to Vancouver, if you wanted better tickets in Seattle, which is probably going to be sold out in the next week or so anyways. Oh, come to Portland. Come to Portland. If you want to drive from Sacramento, these are the last West Coast cities we're going to be doing for a minute.

Houston sold out. Come to Portland. New York or Chicago. out come to Portland. So just grab those tickets and grab the live stream. I don't know, tell your boyfriend to grab you tickets to the live stream. These are the perfect holiday gifts. You don't have to wait to come into the mail. Perfect little gift is a piece of merch with a ticket to the live stream. Perfect. Bundle it. Say less. Yep. Like we said, big news week, Britney's free. We have Heather McMahon next week. We're going to deep dive on that. We're so excited. We actually just wrapped

recording with her. We're getting a little bit ahead. Adele's new album is coming out. I hate that I haven't heard it yet at this point, but I'm sure it's going to be fire. And Taylor Swift is re-recorded her album's like a fucking boss. It's crazy. She owns her shit. Love to see it. So much stuff is that. Sean and Camilla broke up. But I never saw it coming, honestly. I just thought they were, listen, he might be gay. I don't know. I thought they were in it. I felt unsurprised, I guess. I feel like the publicists were like, you can break up now. Two years in, I feel like it helped your careers. You guys are good. You guys are all set. You're free to go. You did it. You know, I feel like maybe she wants to get back together with Smoke Show Matthew Hussie.

It's not a secret. Okay, it was all over the internet, all right? I just, that was his ex-girlfriend from like 19 to 21 or something like that. Guys, remember when Raina went on a date that wasn't a date with Matthew Hussey? Yeah, that was, yeah. The first thing that should tip me off was the coffee shop we went to. But he wore sweatpants. So I was like, maybe he wants me to see his dick.

That is so funny because someone is going to put on sweatpants and think that they're being casual, where like a girl is like, maybe he's trying to show me his dick. It's a very male way of thinking. I was really reaching on that one. He was like, let's meet at this coffee shop and I'm going to wear gym clothes. And I was like, it's a date. Yeah, that's like a girl showing up in like her tight like sports bra, sports bra top at leisure just because she just came from yoga.

And a guy's like she's trying to fuck. Yeah. It's a skin tight shirt. I will read into anything if I have to. Yes, covered in sweat. He was coming from like jujitsu or something. He looks so hot at the coffee shop. Speaking of like all these breakups, I feel like we did this episode like,

why is everybody breaking up and people cannot stop breaking up. Everybody I know. People cannot stop breaking up. They can't help themselves. I feel like people are like, I made it through the pandemic for this. Like this is it. This is what I have like now. Oh God.

Like I went through so much. This is what I'm left with. So I can't see enough breakups. There's so many of them. They're everywhere. It's like all I'm doing is spending all my time counseling to go through breakups. I know. Rain has been really busy.

I have been really busy. And so now. I'm lucky. I don't need you emotionally right now. I did yesterday sort of. We didn't even get to dive into it. But people are breaking up. And now, because people have been breaking up like crazy, now it's X sliding back in season.

So that's what's happening currently. So I sent Kane of text message after a month of not talking to him. It was humiliating. I just wanted my keys back. And I wrote, can you please send me my keys, please? She really wanted those keys, y'all. He probably saw my name and was like, what's this about? We don't talk.

We don't, whatever. We don't hate each other. We're just not speaking. We broke up. And I had a whole month to craft this. He probably saw my name. he was like, what's this going to be about? And he opened it up and he was like, oh, she's stupid.

No, we broke up. I wonder if he even noticed. Saying please twice is so funny. You're like, I really want those keys. Please. I cannot. And then what he said, yeah, I'll send him. And I was like, you should have, thank you twice.

I thought about making a joke, but I was like, we're not there. Yeah, we're not doing that. We're not. And then, so I got this DM today. I cannot wait to read you. This is so crazy speaking of like X's sliding in. Okay. Also, on that note, you know, exes notoriously hit you with like a holiday text or checking.

So everybody breaking up, on top of the holidays coming up, exes are, this is their Super Bowl. You guys, just like stay woke. They're coming to you from every angle. They're coming out of the shadows. I haven't heard from this guy since 15 years ago. What? I was in college.

I knew this guy. He was like seven. I'm a lot older than Ashley is, obviously. Can't you tell. This backstory with this guy. It's like he was a bartender where I worked. I actually was dating a friend of his. he was the guy with the dog that he liked to watch,

let us have sex. Oh, the husky? Yeah, he was like a golden retriever or something. So anyways, his best friend was his other bartender. I also thought he was very hot. Him and I, like, made out on the way to this party one night. And we walk into the party and he meets one of my, like, best friends in college. And they end up dating, like, for years.

He hooks up with her that night, too. I, like, never told her that, like, I hooked up with him. We were just making out on the way of the party. But anyways, he was a terrible person. He cheated on her all the time. He never did anything to me. Like, we made out and he dated my friend for years. he was the worst, but never did anything to me.

So he, I got a DM from him at 10 o'clock this morning. I'm talking to this like 15 years. I'll change his name, I guess. First of all, I love when people introduce themselves to like, hey, Raina, it's John. I've collected that information. It's the top of your Instagram profile. It's literally coming from an avatar of your face.

Yeah, he's also the only person I've ever known with this name. It's not a common name. So he said, I'll make up the name of her. Hi, Raina, it's John from Apple Base. So he tells me his name and where we know each other from. which I'm very clear. It is a restaurant. Yeah, it's a restaurant.

We worked a restaurant together. From 15 years ago. That's so crazy. Hey, Ashley, it's Bobby from Lone Star. Bobby, if you're listening, he did message me one time. I was talking about Bobby from Lone Star one time and he slid to the DMs. What other guys I was dating at his school master me? Hey, Ray and that's Ryan from the BP Gas in Greenfield.

Right. That's very funny. I mean, you're not thinking it's funny. It's very, I think it's insane. We got to get there together sometimes. No, I think it's insane. One of somebody's like, hates Brian from Abercrombie and Fitch.

Yeah. Okay. Hey, Ashley, it's Matt from Happy Harries. That was a drugstore worked up. Like, it's terrible. Happy Harries. That was my first job. Also, like, why are we still identifying ourselves

with these places? You know what I mean? Okay. Hi, Raina. It's John from Appleby's a long time. Saw a pick of you and he references my friend that he dated. I saw a pick of you and Jen.

By the way, Jen is two kids and she's married. So they have not been in contact also for over 10 years. saw a pig of you and Jen yesterday and then you popped in my feed. This is so crazy. What is the lie? You're right, blatant lie. You mean you were looking at photos of us

and it looked me up? I popped to your feet because you looked me up. Lie better. You know what I mean? Like you'd ever catch somebody to lie where you're like, oh, I'm so much smarter than you. I know how the internet works

and then you popped into my feed. What are you talking about? Because you went to my page. I hope you're well. You look like you're doing great. I'm so happy for you. This is riddled with typos. So you know.

That's all much love. Oh, PS. Sorry for being a piece of shit. What? No. Wait, really? Wait a minute.

Why do I feel like you should get back together? That's funny. We never dated. This, well, he spelled peace wrong. This, Raidtled with typos. Is this guy okay?

That's what I said. I texted her this morning. Did he stroke out when he was writing this? I wrote her and I was like, be honest. Is John illiterate? By the way, let me know the last line.

is funny. O-P-S, period. Sorry for V-N-V-E-I-N-G, a piece P-E-I-C-E of shit. This text, oh my God, you look like you're doing great. Oh, he used the right, your version, actually. That was probably a mistake. And he correctly identified what's going on in my life. I'm son happy for you. It's S-O-N-H-A-P-P-Y. Sun-happy. That's all, period. Much love, exclamation point. OPS, sorry for V and a piece of shit. I would not make fun as somebody, except that he cheated on her with everything.

He cheated on her with like multiple friends of ours, his sister's friend. He like wasn't even like subtle about it. Like everyone knew. So I don't feel bad making fun of him. That name is just sounds like a cheater. It's so crazy like men like see a thing and think this is a good idea. I don't care if you were looking at photos to me.

Don't send me a message. Are you going to respond? No. Never. Okay. I had a funny thing. We have not talked to us in the podcast and I've been wanting to talk about

that was one of the funniest friendship moments for us. And so I wanted to share with our listeners, it was when we came off the plane in Cancun and I got off the plane before you and I hit behind a wall and scared you. I don't know if you guys like to scare people. It is so fucking funny.

Also, her and Ashley and I like, early on the podcast, we did this whole thing about people that like don't wait for you to go to customs. And they don't wait in the hallway. And like, if you have a man that gets off a plane and leaves,

fuck that person. I got off the plane and I'm like, oh, she really didn't wait for me. No, I said I'm going to walk until like I see a, sometimes you just got to keep it moving. There's not really a place to stand. They get kind of weird. They're like, keep it moving. So I was like, I'm going to keep it moving until I find a place to kind to wait for you. So what I found was a wall to hide behind. And I was like, I can hide behind here and jump out and scare her when she walks by. You guys, it was so funny. We just were like crying, laughing. And you were like, do you like to scare me?

it's just it's not a thing I know about you it's just like it's a thing I think some people that just like love to jump out and scare each other like like couples when they're naked love scary people when I have the opportunity I think it's so funny to do it I think it's so funny to jump out and scare somebody you know what I like love it so much but I don't want some way to do it to me and it's like one of those things you could easily do it to me so like I don't want to open the door because I don't want it to happen to me like it's like my dream to like live with somebody and they're just coming out of the shower butt naked you scare them so bad they drop the towel and they're just like naked getting terrified. I think it's so funny. I know. You just, you got to be careful, though, because I mean, I don't know. You have high blood pressure. Like, is your heart okay? Like, I don't want to send you into cardiac arrest. I take pills every morning. I'm fine. Like, be careful with your older relatives and friends. Or friends in their mid-30s. Can you have hashed that? You scare somebody. They have a heart attack. You're like, no. I don't know. I think it's really funny. I think it's a very funny thing. A couples do. Like, I love couples that scare each other and like post it, like, film it.

I was trying to film it, but I couldn't, like, get it right. Like, I didn't want, then I was where you were going to see the camera first. It was so funny. If you guys do that to your friends, please videotape it and send it to us. Can't ask for it enough. I want to watch people get so scared. I know. Please.

I want to watch men get terrified. Like, the best is fun people to scream out loud. Like, some people are just like, you know, but like, when people like scream. I know. When people are like, ah! So you guys, I feel like Thanksgiving week is this week. You're home with your family. Just fuck your family up.

Scared your dad? We don't want to be responsible for any sort of heart attacks. Like when your brother is in the refrigerator taking the milk out of the fridge, stand behind the fridge, jump out, screams so he drops the milk and he gets to clean everything up. Yes, love that. Just create a mess. The hardest I ever say my brother laugh was probably two Christmases ago. You were just having a nap with my dad on the couch, which was weird for everybody.

And I had passed out in a blackout drunk. Your foot was touching his leg. But I had made that, I had made that jalapeno dip. and my fingers and my, I went and peed in my hands in the bathroom. My hands hurt so much. They were burning. My lips were on fire and I read that like put dairy on them. I just dabbed sour cream all over my lips.

Like it was lip gloss. And my brother was like, I think he almost shit his pants. He was laughing so hard. You slept through the whole thing. He was like, you put, he would just rub sour cream all over your lips. Like it's lipstick. So sad. I missed it.

I was trying to keep up drinking with your dad. And like I just, I love like a laugh from your brother like that. I know. I know, like when he laughs like that. All right, we're going to make it quick, but we have a few short wrecks. What are your wrecks? Oh my gosh. I have so many.

So I asked you guys what I would like because I, and you guys like super delivered. Ashley and I would say, well, probably like what you guys like. So I watched the Britney Murphy doc on HBO. It's called What Happen, Brady Murphy. It's just two parts. It's about her death. I thought it was interesting. It's, you know, about her.

I loved her as an actress. I loved Girl Interrupted and Clueless. And I think she's really phenomenal in 8 Mile. So that is a two-part series on HBO about her life and her death, which I thought was interesting. The Shrink Next Door on Apple TV, based on the podcast, unbelievable. It's Paul Rudd and Will Ferrell. Oh, yeah. I love seeing people that typically do comedic roles do serious roles.

And I thought that it's really, really well done. The first few episodes are out. Paul Rudd is Will Ferrell's therapist, and he kind of ruins his life. So it's very interesting and well done. and then finally, dope sick on Hulu. I am like, it's eight episodes. The last one just came out this week. It is the most tremendous look at the opioid crisis.

It's a horrifying watch. Like, I grew up in Pittsburgh and a lot of people in my community got really heavily addicted to drugs. And I don't know if I ever told you this. My boyfriend in high school had pancreatitis. He was like born with it. And he had tremendous pain. And he started being prescribed oxies when we were in high school.

And he became like really seriously addicted to them. And so it's hard for me to, watch the content because it's so realistic to me and so many people have turned to heroin. But really phenomenal. Michael Keaton is the star. The cast is amazing. So dope sick on Hulu. Phenomenal series. Okay. Great. I watched Love Hard and Netflix, which we have Heather next week on the show. We'll talk about it more with Heather. But I liked that. That was cute. I wish Heather was in it more. We'll talk about next week. Co-sign. Love Life on HBO season two. So we recommended the show when it came out. Anna Kendrick was a star. So it's a whole different

star, but he's looped in with Anna Kendrick. So he's like, was at her wedding. One of her weddings, her from the first episode. And it's about this man. And so it's his love life story. I think it's, I just, I'm obsessed with the series. Both seasons now are really great. And that's my rec.

Every person that recommended stuff said Love Life. It was probably the number one thing that was recommended to me. So I'll do it next. And Yellowstone. Did you not watch the first season of Love Life? I got two seasons to watch. Okay. You're so lucky. Kate said she started watching it on the plane.

So I don't know. She flies Delta. So I think Delta might have your first three episodes of Love Life Season 1. You want to get a little start while you're in the air. And the 30-minute flight to Pittsburgh this week. So lots of good things to watch while you're home with your families this week. Okay, guys, we are really excited to welcome a guest today that you requested. She is a behavioral scientist turned dating coach. After studying psychology at Harvard, ever heard of it? She ran Google's behavioral science team, the Irrational Lab.

She's the author of the bestselling book, How Not to Die Alone, and the Director of Relationship Science at the dating app Hinge, where she leads a research team dedicated to helping people find love. Please welcome to the show, Logan Yuri. Hi, thanks for having me. Hi. Thanks for being here. And by the way, I said our listeners requested you. We also wanted you on the show. Great. I'm just saying our listeners heard of you and you've done Jared's show with him. He's one of our favorite guests.

So we're really excited to have you. Thank you. I'm very excited to be here. I've been wanting to join you for a while. Great. Well, let's talk about how you got into this, while you're interested in it, what you educate people on. Yeah. I mean, I feel like I have my dream job in terms of being able to write and research and think about dating all the time, which I bet you also feel that way in terms of like being able to turn this passion into a job.

I've always had a few interests. One is in sex dating and relationships. And then the other one is in psychology. how people make decisions, why we often do things against our own best interest. And so my work really combines the two where I'm like, why do people make the same mistakes over and over again? Or like, why do we like the guy that doesn't like us? Why do we say we're going to start dating? But then we keep delaying it. And so I love the perspective that I bring to the dating world because I'm taking this academic research about love and how people make decisions. And I'm bringing it to day to day

dating to be like, look, this is what you have to do to break your habit and find love. Probably similar to you. I just feel really comfortable to talking about sex and dating. And I think it's like the most interesting thing. And I love being able to go deep with someone and being like, you know, like we were talking about masturbation. Like when's the first time you masturbated? Did you feel shame around it? Just all of that stuff. And so I've definitely had this interest for a while. But then at Google, I had the opportunity to run this team called the Irrational Lab. And so that team was about behavioral science. And so behavioral science is the study of how people make decisions.

So it's basically this idea that we often act against our own best interest. So we're like, oh, I want to save money for retirement. But then we get an email from Dyson that the air app is on sale. And of course we buy it. Or we say we want to eat healthier, but then we fill up our plate as if it's the last time we're going to eat. And so it's like, what's that thing in between? Like, what's that blocker between what I want to do and what I do? and what I do. And so my whole research is really understanding, like, you say you want to date,

but you're not dating. How do I get you to date? You say you want to break your bad habits of chasing after your ex, but you still follow them and stalk them on Instagram. Like, what should you do instead? So it's really about changing your behavior. A lot of that's probably just childhood trauma, too. Right. What is it? Right. So what we want to talk to you today about is, you know, who we date, who we're picking, how to break that pattern. And then like, yeah, let's talk about dating, meeting people in person, hacking the apps and things like that. But I think this idea of who we pick, even if it's against our own best interest, really interesting.

And I was talking to Ashley about that a little bit recently because I went through a breakup. And I was like, why? And I'm not focusing on that person, but just in general, why do I pick people that I know aren't going to be great for me? Whether they're, you know, they live in Denver and they're outdoorsy. I'm not outdoorsy. I'm never living in fucking Denver. Or whether they're from Charleston and they're really conservative.

And I'm not going to live in a conservative lifestyle with a man. Like, things like that. And I do think they're against my own best interest, but I do it. So I guess it would be interesting to start with like, why are we picking things against our own best interest? Yeah, those are perfect examples. So in my work as a dating coach, I saw people from different countries, different cultures, different ages. And I found that a lot of them had the same thing in common. They had these unrealistic expectations.

And so I've broken this down into a framework called the three dating tendencies. And so each one of them has unrealistic expectations about something. So the first one, and I'm super curious to hear what both of you are. The first one is the romanticizer. So the romanticizer is someone who loves love. They care so much about the How We Met Story. They might not use dating apps because they're like, oh, it's not romantic enough. They are obsessed with the soulmate.

The thing about the romanticizer is they're so focused on, this is how we're going to meet, this is what he's going to look like, that they're actually very rigid and they're not willing to try things. And then in a relationship, when it hits that inevitable rough patch, instead of being like, yeah, this is what relationships are. like, no, no, no, this is too hard. If they were my soulmate, it would be easy. And then they leave their relationship. So they have unrealistic expectations of relationships.

Yeah. I mean, I was going to say one of these things is this movie's shit. 100%. And it's a tract and like the hallmark movie of the Manhattan woman who goes home to her small-ass hometown with one stoplight and marries the Christmas tree farmer. Like, that does not real life. And it's beautiful and it's fun to watch on TV and movies. but the second you realize that's not real life and like fairy tales aren't real life and this is all

bullshit is like the second you start living. And people are humans. They're not characters in a movie. So you can write that to look great, but it isn't realistic. So my idea that I was going to like meet somebody on the road and like live this Denver life. So I'm not fucking doing it. It's not realistic. A hundred percent.

Yeah. It's basically when you're a kid, you watch Disney movies. They're obsessed with happily ever after. And it's like if you think about the little mermaid, how much did Prince Eric know about Ariel when they got married? He knew she had a nice singing voice and that she had enough upper body strength to pull him out of the water onto the beach, right? And that was like, oh, we are meant to be happily ever after. So first you have the Disney movies, then you graduate to rom-coms and the rom-coms are the same.

So, yeah, we have all these cultural scripts telling us the hard part of love is finding someone. It's like, yeah, that's hard. But you know what else is hard? All of the rest of it. It's always hard. Yeah. And even if you find a nice person, you know, that's never been something I suffered from I was date nice people. but yeah, all the other factors of actually dating a person.

Okay, so what is the next tendency? So the next one is the maximizer. The maximizer is somebody who has unrealistic expectations of their partner. So this is the person who says, I like my boyfriend, but could he be 10% hotter? Or I like my girlfriend, but I wish she were 5% more ambitious. And it's almost like they have this like vision in their head that they're going to just like keep dating, keep dating. And then one day the perfect person will emerge. And so what's so annoying about that.

the maximizer is that instead of understanding that you build a great relationship by finding somebody good and then building it together, they're like, no, no, no, it's all about finding that perfect person. And so they keep swiping, they keep looking for the next person, but they don't understand that nobody's perfect, including you. And at a certain point, you just have to find someone, commit and build it, as opposed to being like, oh, I'm going to reject this person because the perfect person is just a few swipes away. I mean, we call it like next best thing. syndrome. Very New York, I feel like, because especially with men, because there are so many women. And like a lot of times you can find this girl that's really cool and you can find a hotter version

of her. But I think men date in that world and then they never stop. And we talked about this with A, our good friend Rob and Mark Manson as well of like men don't stop. They're like, but she is quote unquote really perfect. And maybe even in love with her, but her hands could be smaller. I mean, I don't know. Oh yeah. Like Jerry Seinfeld, she eats her peas on one pee at a time. And I don't know if you remember this, but I'm in Aziz Ansari and Eric Clintonberg's book, Modern Romance, I was called Modern Romance. There's a whole chapter about maximizers and satisfiers and people who are, people that are maximizers are not happier necessarily. This feeling that you need to have the bigger, better, next best thing, like does not make you a happy person. That is a huge part of how I think about this. Like sometimes people ask me, like, based on your research in the book, like, how have you changed your life? One of the biggest things is like this idea of maximizers versus satisfacers. So people think, like, happiness comes from making the right decision or the best decision. But what we actually know is happiness comes from feeling good about your decision. So satisfacers who say, I have a bar, I've met someone who meets my bar, I'm going to commit to

them, are happier than people who are always doing what you call next best thing syndrome. I find it interesting that personality type because are they lacking in some emotional depth or ability to love because I feel like if you really are in love with somebody, you're like, I don't want to throw that away because that's really rare. So I wonder if there's just a disconnect there of like, if you really love somebody,

I can't imagine being like, but they could be 10% hotter. Like, you know what I mean? And I feel like you don't let them get to the point to the point of that. It's just like, yeah, you look at the service level stuff and you're like, she's not ambitious enough, she's not hot enough.

Next, next, but I feel like those people, it reminds me of Shepros from Southern Charm. He's a girlfriend now, right? Yeah, he's a girlfriend now, but he, what, I took him like, I don't know, 45 years, whatever. So I feel like these people never actually like learn enough about a person to humanize them in any way. Yeah, Ashley, to what you said about personality trait, I honestly think a lot of this is cultural. Like, I feel like we're this Google generation where we're like, oh, I can just research my way to the right answer. For me, it's like, I won't go to a restaurant without looking at Yelp.

I won't do a trip without trip advisor. We're always leaving ratings. We have this obsessions with ratings and reviews. I think it gives us this false sense that like if I just keep going, if I just keep researching, I can find the right answer. And so I do feel like a lot of my clients are maximizers. A lot of the people that I talk to are maximizers. I really think there's this cultural phenomenon of the perfect person is out there.

I just have to turn over every stone. And I just don't think that that's true. I really feel like it's like you have to choose someone great and invest in them. And if I can nerd out with you for a minute, there's this cool mathematical equation that helps explain this. Please. Yeah. Okay.

Let's do it. All right. So there's this thing called the secretary problem. Probably the more politically correct would be called like the admin problem. But it's known as the secretary problem. So imagine you're hiring a secretary and you have a hundred candidates. And you have to go through each one one at a time. and after each one, you say yes or no.

And so the question is, when is the optimal or best time to choose someone? So if you choose the second person, maybe everyone else was more amazing, but you don't know what's out there. And if you wait too long and you choose, you know, you get to 97, maybe all the good people are gone. So the question is, when's the perfect time to choose someone? So the mathematically correct answer here is that you go through 33 of the candidates. that gives you a sense of who's out there.

And then you say, who is the single best candidate from the first 33? That's our benchmark. The next time you find someone who you like as much or more than that benchmark person, you immediately hire them. So that 33% gives you a sense of what's out there. And then you choose the next person like that. So you don't go too short or too long. So if you apply that to dating, and this is from a book called Algorithms to Live By,

imagine you're going to date from 18 years old to 40 years old. And when will you have gotten through 33% of the people? That's at age 26.1 years. So by the time you're 26, you've dated around a third of the people you could date. So now what you do is you say, who's my benchmark person from those first years of dating? And then I commit to the next person who I like as much or more than that person. And so the point of this is I imagine many people, listening are already 26 years old. You probably already dated somebody who would be a great partner.

So instead of saying, I'm going to keep dating, I'm going to keep dating, say I have a benchmark person and the next time I find someone I like as much or more than them, commit to them. And so anyway, this isn't about regret for the person you let go. It's about empowering you to be like, I've probably already met someone who would be great. And instead of keep trying to trade up, I'm going to actually commit and invest in the next one. I mean, yeah, I love it. first of all, that's the secretary thing. Like, it clicked immediately. But I feel like you're not even, don't even know who you are until you're 25,

the bare minimum. I feel like so many people like really want to wait until they're even in their 30s to get married or you spend the first half of this dating journey picking the wrong type of people. You don't have all the information. You know, you grow and change. And everybody's got a different story. Some people don't have their first series boyfriend, girlfriend, until they're in their 20s or even later.

But I can still appreciate the sentiment just to stop the next best. you know, like, let's, let's figure out. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like for me it would be like the person I was engaged to and I, he's not who I want long term as an adult in terms of like financial stability and things like that. But he was a nice person. He was a great teammate. And so for me, that's, that became the benchmark was like, find a person that you feel like is a good partner to you that loves you that treats you kindly. And like I can fill out the other things that I want differently as I get older. Yeah, because you do want different things as you get older for most people. I mean, I had my first serious boyfriend at 17, and I would love to stop dating at, you know, 40, 39, whatever. So the model kind of works for me in that way. But I definitely didn't meet a person, like a benchmark person at 26. Like, I definitely met that person at 30. But yeah, I mean, I still really appreciate the discussion. I love chatting about this, like, scientific way of looking at things.

Do you know how fucked up I am? I heard secretary and I was like, oh, her theories about how men I'll fuck their secretary. That is what I'm going to talk about. What's the other secretary problem? You said secretary problem. And I was like, men are always trading down to their younger secretary from their own. Oh, my gosh. Oh, yeah, the other one.

I also just think that we're in this, the next best thing and less need to problem solve as a generation. Like, it's like you get the new iPhone the second it comes out. I mean, I think people kind of like live a lifestyle where they're like, I don't have to troubleshoot much anymore. I don't have to work as hard. especially if a person who has like money and resources, you're like, this should be so easy. I should be able to have perfection.

Like I can have it in like everywhere else in my life. So where's the perfect person? I love that. Why do I need to troubleshoot this relationship? Yeah, that's so funny to me. So my dad and I are on the same Verizon plan and I just got off the phone with this like Verizon sales rep. And basically like my dad's, you know, iPhone 8 isn't working. So he has to get an iPhone 13.

And I'm like, why can't you just fix the iPhone 8? Like why do we always have to be like getting a new device? Like, why don't you just fix it? And it's totally true. It's like we treat items like they're disposable. We're always getting a new toaster, a new blow dryer. Things aren't meant to last. And it's like, oh, wait, except in relationships where theoretically I'm supposed to meet you in my

20s or 30s and then be with you until I'm dead. Like, that's just not how we are with most things in our life. And so no wonder relationships are so hard for us when everything else in our life is so disposable and we replace it every 18 months. But not my parents. You know what I'm saying? My parents are this iconic couple. they were like, they broke the mold.

They're still so happy together 40 years later, but they had the Tupperware they had when I was a kid. I was like, how are you guys still using this pot? And they're like, it's not broke. Why would we get a new one? And so it's kind of like, I think we've all shifted as a generation because they're still very much like, this works. We like it.

We know that it's the same shit you had when you were a kid. So what is the next dating tendency, the third? The third one is the hesitator, and the hesitator has unrealistic expectations of themselves. So you'll know if you're, you're a hesitator if you're just not dating right now. So the hesitator says things like, I'm just not ready to date. I'll be ready to date when I lose 10 pounds. I'll be ready to date when I have a more impressive job. And their whole mindset is I wouldn't want to meet my soulmate

before I'm as good as I can be because then they would reject me. So I have to keep working on myself. But there's two main issues with the hesitator. One is the only way to get better at dating is by dating. And so I like to say it's kind of like stand-up comedy. You can only only practice stand-up comedy by being in front of a live audience. Otherwise, it's just writing. And you can only practice dating by actually going on a date. So if you want to get your skills better, you have to go out there. The other thing is it takes a long time to figure out what kind of person you should be with. And so you can only figure that out by going on dates, testing your theories, dating like a scientist. And so if you're sitting at home thinking about how you just need to get

better at dating, but you're not dating, you're not making any progress. And so remember, No one's ever 100% ready for anything. And instead of waiting around trying to be perfect, just put yourself out there and that will help you get better at dating, get better at figuring out who you want to be with. It's so true. It's like if I waited for the body that I always wanted my whole life, I never would have gone on one date.

I've never stopped being hard on myself for things. It's like if you wait forever for this like you to be this perfect person. However, I do think that we should be good on the inside before we start dating. I don't think we should start dating if we're trying to fill all. whole. Find someone to complete you. Yeah. Like we always say like a man is not a plan. Like a partner is not a plan. You know, like you do have to be whole. But if you're waiting for all these like cosmetic superficial things, I think that that's silly. Yeah. What I would say is a lot of my dating coaching clients are in therapy. So they're working on themselves. They're doing the work at the same time. But it's not like

I need to go through X number of years of therapy and then I will be a great person and then I'll date. It's like, no, we're all works in progress. And I've been doing a ton of research about therapy and mental health at Hinge. And it's so interesting. People are extremely pro-therapy. I just did a survey over the weekend about Gen Z and their impression of people going to therapy. And it's like if you say on your first date that you go to therapy, the other person's more likely to want to go on a second date with you. And so we're in this like super pro-mental health stage. People should be in therapy. They should be talking about therapy. All of that is great. But don't create that as an excuse to actually not put yourself out there and try. Work on yourself in parallel with dating.

It's interesting you said that about therapy because I find, I don't know if people message you this more, but I find that I'm getting more and more messages in the last few months that couples listen to us together as like a therapeutic tool. Oh. I think that that's really interesting. I mean, I just love when people say their therapist recommended our podcast. I'm like that there's no greater compliment. So does everybody fall into one of these or is there a fourth style that's just like secure and great? You know what I mean? Like does everybody relate to one of these?

Or are these just kind of the flawed ones? So it's based on who I had as dating coaching clients. And then about 20,000 people around the world have taken the quiz on my website. And I find that a lot of people have more than one. But it's really, when you want to think about what your biggest one is, it's if you're not dating at all, you're definitely a hesitator. So you might have some romanticizer tendencies, but that's what makes you a hesitator.

If you're really focused on the soulmate, how we met, should be easy, then you're a romanticizer. And if you constantly find yourself saying who else is out there, then you're a maximizer. And so I actually think many people fit into one or more categories. But we can talk about attachment theory if you want, where of course there's like anxious, avoidant, and secure. So some people are doing really well in the secure category, but a lot of the people that I talk to are anxious or avoidant. That's how I kind of thought about it. We're not we don't need to dive into attachment theory today. But yeah, it's like here's the quote unquote less desirable ones. And then there's this category of just like secure and just killing it.

Yeah. I've had a lot of people who are in relationships take the quiz just because it's in my book or just for fun. And they often tell me what their tendency is. So I think like even if you're happily married or in a relationship, you still might relate to one of these because they can come up in other areas of your life. You might be like, I'm a hesitator. That's why I never quit my job to start a company or I'm a romanticizer. That's why I get frustrated when my relationship is hard. I like the beginning of things, but not the end. So they can kind of be a framework for a lot of parts of life. What do you think I am?

Well, I was just going to ask you. I mean, I feel like we're similar in a lot of ways. I'm not hesitating on date. I'm not making excuses to not date. A lot of it's just like I don't want to be bothered right now. My life's amazing and it's full and I'm super busy. And like there's been weeks where like literally somebody asked me to go on a date and I did not have a night free.

I'm not doing standup. We're living our life. I don't feel like I want to be bothered. I know that it takes, work. I know like my person who somebody that I'm going to be a good match was is not going to come find me in my home. You know, I get it. I think Rayna and I have all the information. Um, and we both dated a ton, but our lives are great without a partner. And it just really needs to be the right person in not a like white night soulmate way, just a person that's like on our level that we want to

spend time with because I'm really happy alone or with Raina or with my other friends or with my dog or with my family. But I can pick parts of all of them. I can pick parts of like even the romantic one. Like this should be easy, you know? It should really just feel so natural and be kind of like fairy tale ask. And of course I can relate to the maximizer. And of course I guess I technically can relate to the hesitator, but not so much for reasons that I'm making excuses of like I'll date this time. Because those aren't the things that I say. I'm not dating because I'm just like I'm not feeling it right now. I feel like Ashley is like a romantic maximizer. So I feel like, I think that her and I are very similar in the sense that we want somebody that really is

unequal to us and really can inspire us and that the sex is great. We want all these things. We want somebody that's fun to pal around with and socialize with. But I think we're both like, I'm not going to be bothered until I find that. Like, I want to maximize the person that I'm with. I'm not dating 100 people and not committing to any of them. And either is she. Like, her and I aren't going out on 100 dates and being like, 100 want to be better, you know?

That all makes sense. And it's funny that you said that, Raina, because I say in my book, I'm like, if you don't know which one of these you are, ask your best friend. Because I actually did a study where I did a survey to understand which tendency people were. And then I asked them what they thought they were. And then I had their friends say what they thought they were. And their friends were more accurate than they were about predicting their own tendencies. So you may have some insight into Ashley's dating tendencies because these are blind spots, things that maybe we don't have like full access into. and that's why they become so hard, because we don't see what's holding us back.

But I feel like we both have a ton of friends that are like, I can't find anybody. It's so hard. Both of us are like, I can tell you if you want to hear it. Right. How long do you have? Yeah. Or like, why do I keep picking these people?

I can tell you if you want to know, but it's going to hurt your feelings. I mean, Raina, like, I know Raina's, Raina and I've just dissected her dating life so much and trying to figure out the core of like why she picks the people she does. But some of the romantic stuff resonates. with me, because that is why you will date the guy that has a totally different life than you that lives across the country. It's like, it's like, love will conquer all, even though you know

deep down, that's not true, but you'll still kind of do it or like, I wouldn't do it. I'd be like, this is fucking stupid. You know what I mean? Like, you'll kind of go there. You'll fly there. You'll try to make it work and see where it goes. And I feel like recently you've had this realization that like, I'm not doing this anymore. Yeah, my last relationship shook me like to reality where I'm like, yeah, that's not how life is. Or at least maybe it was how it was before. And when you're 25, you can hope that somebody is going to grow up and be different and change. I think at 35, you know that somebody is a little more set in their ways in where they want to live, what kind of lifestyle they're going to have their attitudes about money.

And I think I've just been, I've been shaken awake to the reality of like, I got to actually go after what I want and not say, like, I'll just do whatever because it feels good, you know? I love that. And Ray, I know that we're just meeting. But when Ashley said that you're a romanticizer because of, you know, dating a guy across the country and things like that. I just felt like that was true. Because when you said it earlier, you were like,

I know that it was unrealistic. Like, I'm not going to live in this other Charleston and be really conservative or I'm not going to move to Denver. But it's like there's a part of you that like is like, well, maybe that could be my life. Or like I could do that. I could. So it's like there is kind of a rom-com Disney part of you that's like, maybe I'm actually going to marry a cowboy and like live in Montana.

And so like I think that's like a charming part of you. but I could also see how that's like your logical brain is sometimes being shushed while your romantic brain is taking over, which is sort of like how I think about all this stuff. It's like we know better, but then we do this thing that's like not in our own best interest. Yeah. It's like we tell people, make a list of your top three things. If one of your top three things is I need a man with money, then like, why didn't you need to go and date people with money?

I just also think Rayna like really sees the best in people and I'm quick to be like, they're always going to be a loser. They're a loser now. They're going to be a loser. you're not going to lift them up to your left you know like it's just kind of I think she can be a little bit more like yeah they'll get there and I'm like probably not but you can try a big thing that I see with people I wonder if this applies to both of you is some people are not picky enough and it's like a charming quality they see the best in people but it's like okay you're 36 like you've dated a guy

without a job who's always talking about how he's going to open a cannabis farm it's like maybe it's time to try something else. And then there's people who are way too picky who are like, unless he is six feet tall with a six figure income, I won't even swipe right on him. And so a lot of times the work of doing with people is like identifying too picky or not picky enough and then helping them find a healthy medium. Picky is such an interesting word. It is an interesting word. The girls that are like six feet, six figures and whatever. Like come on. You're really setting yourself up and not to mention if you write that on an app it's a going to be an immediate no from so many guys they hate that we hate that at any time that i feel like a guy has some sort of like must be this must

be this i'm like x immediately but picky it's like i'm picky and that i just i don't know we have this amazing career we're we're self-made we're of a certain age we're not desperate for marriage or children so like the standards are high i was um Marie foster had done this funny tic-tok she's been a guest in our show. She's so hilarious. And she was like, if I'm still single at 40, y'all don't even know how long my list is going to be because I'm with myself for this many years. Like, why would I settle now? So it kind of becomes that thing. And like someone that's going to add to your already incredible life. So the bar is high, I guess. I've totally seen that. Yeah. So one thing I've seen is like, the older we get, we kind of say something like, well, I've waited this long,

he better be perfect. But then there's a. another sense that's like, I've waited this long and like, I haven't found someone who has these things, so maybe I should be more willing to compromise or something. And like, honestly, it depends on, it really depends on the person. It's like, what I'm hearing from you too loud and clear is you're like, I love myself. I love my life. If a person comes into my life and adds to it great, if not, like, I'm fine. And like, I think that's actually the ideal place to me because you don't have a missing piece and then you become whole. You're already whole and somebody can either contribute to your life or not. I would say many people that I work with don't feel that

way where they're like, this is the most important thing to me to find someone. And so for them, it's like, I wish they didn't feel like they had that missing piece, but that's what they're saying to me. And so I think like you two are kind of like almost past that stage. I mean, I just want to see what I could be doing because I do want to find someone. I would love to find love and really have a partner. So it's like, I just want to make sure what, what am I putting out there? What am I not doing? What could I be doing? Because I think I'm deserving of a really great partner. I think Rain is too. So it's like we're not out here saying like, we're perfect and we got this. But like I think Rain has been like, why do I keep picking these type of people? Maybe I should work on that. I'm like,

am I putting something out there that's not drawing these type of men that I want to me? So I think it's always about just like reflecting on yourself too. And we can't say it enough. Don't put yourself in a position where you have to pick a person that you don't want to be with and that you don't like yourself and that you're like, well, I have to find a person for validation and we can't say it enough. So let's talk about, all right, so you identified what your fucked up issues are. So let's talk about how to pick better. So like how do I turn this around? Yeah. So I have a chapter in my book called Go for the Life Partner, not the prom date. And so the prom date is that person. In the book, I talk about this guy that I met at Burning Man. And it was like we met, we were at this amazing

DJ said, it was a white party, you know, there was some craziness going on and, you know, we made out, we had this amazing night together. And then we both lived in San Francisco when we got back to San Francisco. I was like, oh, well, now we're going to date. And I like really tried to like push dating on this person. But honestly, like, he was not ready to be a partner, right? He was more of the prom date. He was hot. It would have been fun to dance the night away with him, which I did. You know, you want to sleep with them at the end of the night. They're really fun, but they're not reliable. They're not the person who's going to pick up your kids from the dentist or remember your mom's birthday. And then the alternative is the life partner. So the life partner, and Raina, you were kind of talking about this, is the person

who you want as your teammate, the person who makes you better, accepts you, you can make hard decisions together. You trust them, you admire them. And it's fine early on in life to date the prom date, but I feel like at a certain point you have to be like, I'm going to make a conscious decision to change who I'm looking for. And so some of the things that people opt optimized for that don't really matter are things like looks and money. So yes, those are nice things, but scientifically there's a concept called adaptation where over time you just get used to whatever you have. So it's like if your partner's really hot, eventually you just take it for granted. If you have a lot of money, that's just what your life becomes. And so looks and money, you just grow used to them

over time. Same thing with similar hobbies or similar personalities. You don't have to be the twin of your partner. That doesn't matter. You can be totally different as long as you're respectful of each other's differences. The things that matter more than we think are things like what side of me does this person bring out. Maybe this person is hot and successful and ambitious and your friends like them. But actually, when you're around them, you feel not good enough because you're comparing yourself to them. Or maybe they criticize that you have a framed Picasso poster on your wall and they're like, why don't you have real art? And so it's really about understanding like not who Are they on paper?

Not the checklist, but what's the dynamic that emerges between the two of us? And is this who I want to be for the rest of my life? Because it's so much more who they bring out of you than who they are on paper. And that's a good time for your best friend to be able to speak on that. Because you're like who you are around them. Because sometimes you can't see it until it's too late because bringing out the best in somebody is like the number one thing. Oh yeah.

That's a quick tip that I'd love to add, which is, invite your friends to meet your new person. But instead of saying, what did you think of him? Say, what did you think of me around him? That's the question I'm asking, girl. I love it. Tell me about me. Yeah. I mean, Ashley knows, like, probably more than most people, like, for me, like, one of the primary things for me is, like, the person I'm with has to be able to socialize with the people I'm with. So I wanted to be somebody that can walk in a room.

We don't have to talk all night. They're with my friends, that they can have things to talk about, that they're sort of on the same level, like, conversationally. They can go back and forth with everybody in the room and they're inquisitive about other people's lives and that they volunteer to bring something, you know, if you're going to, like, a barbecue, like somebody that's just like an adult that can talk to everybody in the room. like Ashley cannot hear me harp on this enough.

It's just, it's very important to me that I leave a room and everybody thinks like the person that I brought was respectful and kind and inquisitive. And if you can't be that, like, I think that I'm just realizing like you really can't be with me at all. What are the things that you're willing to compromise on? Because I love to talk to people where they're like, this is my like must have. And then sometimes I'm like, is it possible that you have a deal breaker that's actually a pet peeve?

So I'm just curious for you. You're like, okay, must be social. must be really a good guest and a good host and people need to like him. Like, what are the things where you're like, honestly, if he's not that blank, that's fine with me. What do you think it is for you? What are you willing to compliment? I mean, to even answer that, I guess I have to kind of think about what's important, what I'm looking for. I mean, I obviously want the basics, you know, honesty, kindness, loyalty, things like that, family being a priority.

But outside of those no-brainers, it's just how somebody makes me feel, how I interact with them. I really need to be excited and challenged by somebody. I just need to be excited to hang out with them. We have to laugh, all these things. Like, however that takes form. But like the success thing, it is important because it's really, you know, I think Rain and I, we live a really big life and it is not for everybody, every man, because it can be a little intimidating and it can be emasculating.

So someone that's really comfortable with that, but is really doing their own thing too, because what I always say is I think the best relationships are where both parties feel lucky. Like they feel like they're the lucky one. Like it's not that that person's lucky to be with me. You're like, God, I'm so lucky to be with them. The other person feels the same way. And also that you look up to them in some way.

It doesn't necessarily need to be that they make more money than you, but maybe they're a little smarter than you. Maybe they know more about something than you. Like I have to be able to look up to my partner in some way and vice versa. Otherwise, it's just not going to work because then you don't respect them anymore. And then you don't respect them. You don't want to fuck them. So it's all just this, it starts to snowball so badly.

So those things are not something I'd be willing to compromise on, but there's anything else, yeah. whatever those things would be. Well, one thing, one thing that I'm hearing you say that I think's really smart is like, you're not like, he has to be so successful and successful is defined by like this amount of money or this job title. It's actually more he has to be so confident that he's okay with your success. And so I think that's a really cool nuance because it's like you don't have an image in

your head of this person like works in finance or is a lawyer or is this fancy doctor. It's more like I am who I am and I'm not going to change. So can they respect and admire and feel confident around me? And that's something that, like, you won't know until you're with a person. It's not like a definitive job. It's how they respond to your success. Yeah. And we also talk about it.

Like we still don't want somebody that doesn't make any money. Like, you know, money is money. It's not the most important thing in the world. But I want someone that wants to live the same type of life as me. Yeah. I was Joe Githranah. Like, I don't want kids. So I don't need a stay-at-home dad.

And I pay for everything. I want us both to go into the Amalfi Coast and splitting the bill. Actually just screaming a car. It's all we've got. We're in the car. I'll never forget it. It was so funny. I was like,

who's paying for the Amalfi Coast? Because that's all we got. That's so funny. I'm just so interested in everything you're saying. And like, I do think the fact that you don't have kids and don't want kids is like pretty empowering in terms of like you don't have as much of a timeline. Like you don't want the stay at home dad.

Like actually like the person's religion probably matters way less. Like there's just so many ways in which like it does change the dynamic because they do feel like many people I talk to either want kids or think that they'll want kids in the future. And so anyway, I'm just like interested by what you're saying about like how it changes your process. I guess ultimately something that would be different for me is like someone that's older. You know, we have this whole thing. I've always dated younger guys that kind of gravitate towards like the way they look and like a young energy and I really need a young energy. But like I have never dated a guy in his 40s. That might sound crazy to people given that like I'm in my 30s. But I could see a world in

which I end up with like a divorced dad. You know what I mean? And that's where it looks like how I didn't think it was going to look, you know? And I'm like, all of a sudden, I'm a stepmom and I never saw this coming, but like, it's what it is. I actually had a client, like, really similar to that where like she always dated younger guys because she was so playful. And she was like, at a certain age, guys just stopped being playful.

And I want these younger guys who are playful. And then we helped her figure out, like, how do you find a guy who's like a little bit older and more ready to have kids? and she ended up dating this like divorce dad with several kids. And it was like what mattered was playfulness, not age, but she was conflating the two. And so anyway, it'll be like any divorced dads out there who are fun and playful, like Ashley's ready to me.

I am. Like that's what it is. It's the playfulness. It's the youthfulness. Like I just, we have a young energy about us. Our fan base is young. We're outperforming.

We were in Cancun fucking porn shots into people's mouths. Like we live as mature women, but a little on the younger spectrum. So we just need somebody that's fun and cool. I think that, and I mean, this is no shock if you've ever listened to our show. But like, and that hopefully people relate to this. Like, Ashley is much less likely to compromise than I am. And I think I compromise way too much. Like I look at Ashley and she's pretty much set and like, I know what I want.

This is the standard. This is the bar. You can meet it or not. And I envy that because I think that I compromise too much. I think that I've just been like, he can make whatever amount of money. He can live in whatever city. He can do whatever for a living. And I will figure it out.

I will work myself around it. And, you know, I admire that Ashley is more like, I know who I am, and this is the standard, and this is the bar. And I think probably, like, if I could identify my biggest issue, it's, I compromised too much. I don't have that list of stuff. Like, and I'm not like a doorman anyway. Everybody I've dated is a nice person. It's good looking. I've had fun with them.

But there are just certain things at a certain age that I'm going to need. and I compromise way too much. So I think that, like, I need to compromise less. I need to say, like, here's the standard and you need to meet it. And otherwise, like, I can't date you because this is a recipe for you and I being very unhappy together. I'm going to be frustrated with your presence. And you're going to be frustrated that I'm such a bitch.

And I think that, like, I can compromise about, like, what you do for a living. But I want to be if somebody's doing something exciting and interesting and, you know, upward mobility. Yeah. What came to my head when you said that, Rayna, was almost like, okay, like we're almost at 2022. I can see like your 2022 dating resolution being something like when I am faced with something that's not that attractive about the person that I'm dating, I'm going to say, like, is this a compromise that I want to make or do I want to be in a relationship so badly

that I'm kind of like ignoring this? Or like, am I seeing the best in this person with actually the negative of compromising too much? And so you could like date a guy who, let's say, lives in a place that you would never like, live or isn't open-minded and liberal in a way that maybe you are. And then you could say something like 2021 Raina would have put up with this, but 2022 Raina is not. And just like, I think that's like the really powerful moment of change where you're like,

normally I would take this path, but instead I'm going to take this other path. And like, that's the critical difference in finding love. Because I talk to people in their 70s who are still anxiously attached daters chasing after guys who don't want them. And like, I'm telling you, it's not age. You can keep doing the same thing. for 50 years. It's about saying, old me did this. That didn't work. I'm going to make a change, do something different, and see how it goes. And it's about these mini experiments that show you,

like, what opens up for me when I make a different choice. I love that. And I love that we can pass this on to our listeners. And we're at the end of the year where this is just like the best mantra of like 2022 energy. And you know, don't be afraid to like go after something different. I've told Ashley's privately, my mom has said to me, and I was therapist. My mom sent me for 20 years, is like, why don't you seek out people that are better than you? Like, why are you afraid to be with somebody that you have up on a pedestal? And I think that that is my problem. So anyway, that's energy I'm bringing into next year.

Yeah. And Logan, you're married, right? And do we ever talk about that? Am I, like, blacking out? Did you tell us how you guys meant? No, no, I can talk about that because one of the things, you know, it's interesting. You like, you write a book. You like sit alone at a we work for two years.

You don't know what's going to take off. And like, now people like come up to me and are like, fuck the spark, fuck the spark. because that's like one of the names of my chapters. We can talk about that now if you want to talk about because you're on the street, just screaming about the spark. It's like, that's so San Francisco though. People just screaming crazy. That's basically, you're right.

That's San Francisco in a nutshell. And sometimes I'm like, maybe they haven't even read the book. Yeah. But okay, anyway, yeah, let's talk about it. Yeah, so I met my husband in college, and we only know this because we became Facebook friends in 2007. and he wrote on my Facebook wall and basically my boyfriend at the time

was in a math class with him. So we like once had lunch together. Then seven years later, we were both working at Google and he came up to me near the Google shuttle and was like, oh, like didn't you date so-and-so in college? And I was like, yeah. And then I had this lunch for people

who went to Harvard and worked at Google. And he came and I was like, oh, I'm trying to learn this coding language for statistics. And he was like, I just dropped out of a math PhD where I wrote in that coding language every day. And then for a year, he tutored me in that coding language. I don't know it at all. I am terrible at it.

But, well, okay, so I told you about the guy from Burning Man that I was into, right? So I was chasing this guy from Burning Man, crying every night, trying to convince him to be with me. Meanwhile, I'm going to work and this really nice guy is tutoring me. But I'm like, oh, I can't be with this guy because he doesn't like international travel. And he's kind of close-minded. And he said he doesn't even like people who go to Burning Man. So then I went to a dating coach. And through the dating coach, I made a list of all the things that matter to me.

And I realized, like, this guy from Bernie Man has none of these qualities. He's not nice to me. He's not reliable. He doesn't have his shit together. But this guy at work, like, he makes me laugh. He's so funny. His mom's a Jewish therapist. Like, totally my type.

And basically, one day I was like, hey, I don't have plans on Friday. Like, you should ask me out. And we had this transition moment from friendship to dating. and I just feel so happy. We've been together for seven years. Like, I love him so much. He's so funny. We, like, have this, like, amazing comedy relationship.

He's super intellectual. He knows, like, every word I've ever read in a book and ask him about. And anyway, I call my husband a slow burn because, right, I met him in 2007. Even when we remet, I wasn't, like, that's my guy. I, like, had this perception of him as maybe different from me. But we really, like, have all the important stuff in common. and we've gone to burning demand together multiple times. Oh.

We've traveled internationally multiple times. We live in a 14-person commune together. Like he actually, not that you should assume that people change, but we have like just grown together so much. I just love my husband and I feel like he was not like my type, but he was the person that made me happy as long term. And so like I want your listeners to like underline that point, which is like a lot of times when you meet your person,

it's when you actually find someone who's not your type because your so-called type hasn't been working out for you. I love that and I just love the slow burn in general. I think that we mistake that whole like butterflies in your stomach. Will he call? I don't know. This is so exciting. It's like a good thing. And you know, anxiety. I've been like beating up on the last person. I dated a little bit. But like I always said like he just was a nice guy. It was comfortable and it was comfortable from day one. He was intentional. He showed up when he said he was going to.

He booked a flight to come see me on the last day. of my trip seeing him. Like, it was nice to be with somebody that was intentional. It didn't make me feel so anxious. And yes, there was a spark, but I see what you're saying, which is just like, who wants that person? That you're just like, I don't know if he's going to show up or call me or text me. Fuck that guy.

Fuck that guy. You don't have time for that. Yeah, my whole thing about fuck the spark is like there's three main myths of the spark. One is, if you don't feel the spark, it'll never grow. That's not true. A lot of times people are with someone. They met at work, who was their roommate, who lived on the same dorm as them. You like them more over time. It's called the mere exposure effect. The more you're around someone,

the more they grow on you. The second myth is that if you feel the spark, it must be a good thing. Definitely not true. That spark might be anxiety. That spark might be that they're just super sparky and hot and they give that feeling to everyone and you think that it's the dynamic, but it's actually just them. It might actually be that they're narcissistic or a love bomber. And then the third myth is if you have the spark, then it's going to be a good relationship. No, a lot of divorced couples once had the spark, but it fades. It's not enough to keep you going. And so don't enter the wrong relationship because you met the right way. Yeah, sometimes the spark means that it feels shitty all the time. So when you're nice to me, sometimes it feels so much better than

like it would normally feel when somebody's nice to me. Yeah, you're putting me out of my misery. Yeah. And like you said with the, like, we just did a narcissist episode, which people were obsessed with, but just like the word charisma kept coming up. Yeah, if someone's really charismatic and they're fucking charming. They have smart with everybody. You're not special. I mean, you could be, but you know what I mean. This is just how, this is coming from them because this is how they are. I can't wait to listen to your episode about that. I think it's fascinating because I have a client who's like this where his whole thing is, I want to make someone fall in love with me. So every interaction, he's basically doing this like ninja thing of like, what do they need? What do they want

to hear? How can I make them love me? And it's actually sad for him, but he's so focused on getting people to love him that he doesn't take a minute to say, do I like them? So he basically makes them fall in love with him, promises them the world. And then eventually is like, oh, I'm not attracted to them. I'm not interested. And then disappears. And I'm like, you're really hurting people. And so having worked with a guy like that, I'm just like, I know it's subconscious,

but it's like one of my biggest problems with dating right now is like people who use other people to make themselves feel good, but don't take a minute to be like, am I setting them up for pain? Yeah. So interesting. That is like one of my worst nightmares is like finding a guy that just like, using you for like self-validation. Like self-validation. And when they get it, like, they're done with you. And that's like pretty frightening.

Or just the people that they know what to say, but I just feel like the older you get, the more you learn, the more you date, the more you listen to podcasts like this, you can sense the bullshit. Like there's some things that guys say where I'm like immediate now. Like it feels fake. You don't even know me. Right. That's exactly what I feel.

If they give you a compliment that doesn't feel earned, that's a red flag because they don't know you yet, right? It's like if they say to you like Ashley, I've seen your stand up, you're so insightful, I love this part about you. You're like, that is an earned compliment. If within a day they're like telling you how you're both born in July and you're going to have your birthday together, you can be like, I don't fucking know you. This doesn't feel earned.

Oh, yeah. It feels misplaced. It feels really, I mean, we've talked about, we call it future tripping. Anytime I'm on like a first through third date with somebody in there and they bring up a friend, they're like, well, you'll meet them or, you know, like something about their family, like, oh, we should go there and go to this place. Like if they start planning things ahead of time that feel too familiar, my, like, my signals are up.

I find it very weird. I don't like it. And just stuff like, there was this guy I was chatting with. I was just like, I was never looking at him as a serious match. He was like a lot younger. We were just flirting. But he was saying some of those statements, I could pull him up right now because I was kind of calling him on it. I was like he's so much younger.

He somebody needs to put him his place on this because I imagine all these younger girls are falling for this. Just like stuff like, well, you know, only for you. I would do that. You know what I mean? He wasn't saying ingest. It wasn't like a funny, like, a. Only for you, babe.

It was so misplaced and so early for someone I had actually never met in person, and I just had to make fun of it. But he wasn't joking. And I was like, oh, my God, the girls that must fall for this bullshit. It really upsets me because I see the impact of it on women. So women say to me, like, I went out with this guy. He was the first person in years I felt connected to. He's had all the right things.

He brought me flowers made out of paper. He booked a trip here. And then they let their guard down for the first time in. years and then the person disappears and disappoints them and now their walls are even higher. So I feel like what these guys don't realize is that they're actually like damaging these women in the future because they make the women trust them and then they disappear and now it makes it even harder for that woman to trust someone in the future. Well, let's shift gears and talk about the apps, best practices, any hacks you have.

Great. Okay. So I will tell you all of the things I've learned through hinge stuff around meeting people. So some of this might be obvious, but people might need a little. little refresher. So first of all, your profile matters so much. Your profile is your first impression. And so sometimes people are like, I'm doing the apps. I finally downloaded it and they just rushed through the process. No, if you're a person who did that, I want you to pause this episode, open up your app and just refresh it. And so these are the main tips for the profile.

One is you want to show variety. If you have six selfies of you in front of monuments around the world, cool. We get it. You love to travel. We don't know if you have any friends. We don't know what you look like other than in a selfie. We don't know really anything about you except for this one thing. So you want to tell a story through your pictures. And so I recommend the first picture is a headshot. What does your face look like? No sunglasses, no filters.

Then you have a photo of your full body. What do you look like? And then you have some with friends and families. Show us that you have a social life. Some of you doing an activity you love. Maybe it's hiking. Maybe it's cooking. And then some that really show.

different sides of yourself. So we really want to see variety. Things that you shouldn't have, no smoking pictures, no gym photos, those do super poorly, other things. So with the prompt responses, think about it as the beginning of a conversation. So imagine that you walk into a bar and you're wearing a Game of Thrones t-shirt. Somebody's going to walk up to you and be like, do you speak, gosh, I'm forgetting the language now. What's the language that they speak? That's Raki. Yeah. Somebody's going to walk up to you and be like, do you speak dothraki? And it's like you're putting yourself out there. You have a hook and someone's going to respond to it. But in dating apps, so often people just say cliches. They say,

I'm looking for someone kind and adventurous. It's like, that's not a hook. Nobody's going to walk up to you and be like, I'm kind and adventurous. So I want you to look at your prompt responses and be like, could somebody respond to this? Could they tell me their connection? Could they ask me a question? And so a really good one would be something like the true truths and a lie because people always want to know which one's the lie or they think they know which one the lie is but they want to ask you. So your profile should have these hooks where people have an easy way to talk to you. And one more thing about prompt responses is you want to be specific. So don't tell me that you love cooking. Tell me that you're Vietnamese and that you grew up making fah with your grandmother.

Don't tell me that you love movies. Tell me that when you were in eighth grade, you saw the movie American Beauty and it changed the way you look. at the world. And so you really want to be specific and you really want to create these hooks. Just remind me, I got to get my profile Christmas ready with Home Alone prompts because they just crush every year. Around this time, I start to bring up home alone and it just, it crushes every time. I've had the most conversations on apps about it. And then I've been to the house. Like I have so much to say. I love that. Like we always say to like set yourself up for the date ask. You know what I mean? Like the bring up the best pizza, tacos, whatever.

it is in town looking for someone to like show me around like stuff like that. Give somebody the the end, make it easy on them. If you don't want to ask someone out, but you want to be asked out, give them, like set them up. What is it in the basketball? Just like, in the layoff. Get a laugh. Assist. So I mean, you can probably speak to this more. I don't really use apps ever. It's not for me. But I think that they're great. Maybe I'll get on one one day. But I think the people are so obsessed with casting a wide net and seeming attractive into too many people. That's why you say I'd like to travel. I want somebody kind,

and I want somebody who likes to meet new people. And it's like, I think that, like, if you do spend seven days at the gym and you're a vegan, that is what you should talk about because somebody else will like that and want to fit. Like, I think the more specifics, the better. I think that that's, like, really cool. And you can, like, connect.

And then you can connect with somebody over. One of, like, Ashley's best friends and a good friend of mine is obsessed with bike riding. Like, I think that a lot of people could connect over that. And I personally would know that we will never connect over that because I can't ride a bike. So I'm not wiping on that person. Yeah.

There's tons of research to support what you just said. So there's this really cool book called Dataclism, which is the guy who founded OKCupid, and he does big data analysis. And so what he finds is it's much better to be like a super tattooed woman with really short hair where some people give you a five out of five and some people give you a zero out of five because then the people who give you a five out of five really want to meet you and are excited about you. It's better to be that than a woman who's kind of bland, who's in the middle, who a lot

of people give three out of five to. And so you want to be sort of divisive and have people really into you or really not because the people who are really into you will actually take the effort to pursue you. I love that. Logan, we would be remiss if we didn't talk about the voice prompts just for a second because it is all anyone is talking about. I've probably gotten so many people because my whole thing was I told these stories about getting like voice catfish essentially, not really catfish, but like showing up to dates with guys that I hadn't heard their voice and it was like shocking. Were you involved in this at all? Yeah, I'm really proud of the voice prompts thing.

I mean, I've been following it, like, very carefully on TikTok and everywhere else. I love the different stories. I mean, there's tons of things that have gone into it. I think one of them is, I don't know if you were into Clubhouse at all, like a year ago, but I do feel like this has really been like the year of the voice. Like, we were all at home. We couldn't hang out in person, and so voice was sort of elevated. I feel like there's a bunch of research that we did that's like, I like to do a video

date before we meet up in person so that I can hear. what their voice sounds like. We just kept hearing how important voice was. And so it's like, let's give a chance for you to express yourself. Let's take it beyond pictures and prompts. And so I think it's just like we're moving toward a world of richer media and having voice just like lets you express yourself even more. Yeah, we think it's great.

We think a lot of people haven't really figured it out quite yet. I've mastered it. But I love seeing what people do with it. Like I think that like more so than answering a prompt, like that's how I can really see how your mind works. Have you heard any funny ones? Yes. I want to hear some of your favorites.

These poor people keep sending them to us. These poor guys, I feel like they're all going viral. And it's like obvious. I mean, the one that went, the first one that went viral was the guy singing like, In the jungle, the mighty jungle. And then I've just heard some that are just like one word answers, like kind of, but at least you can get a feel for their voice. Definitely were, they're like kind of these Easter eggs right now.

And I feel like we're all kind of searching for them. and then a lot of people are searching for them for the wrong reasons to, like, put them on TikTok. Right. That's why Hinge blows up because people just want it for comedic purposes. But I still think it's great. Like, I still, I love it. I was like, we were joking that Hinge got the idea from us because I kept talking about, like, I'm going out these guys and they have these crazy voices.

And I just, if I would have heard their voice and their tone and the way they speak, I might not have ventured down this road. You're welcome. Thanks, love. Thank you. Thank you for all you done. I mean, I just want to tap you from we're dating at. Maybe I have no hard.

Yeah, you want to talk about IRL? Yeah, yeah. Let me give you my top tips for meeting somebody IRL. So one of them is look around the people in your life. Is there a friend who you've kind of always had a thing with, but maybe you haven't been single at the same time or maybe you've just felt nervous about it? Is there somebody who's hiding in plain sight who you actually could convert to something more? And so obviously there's always a little risk, but could you get drunk with that person

or just have a phone call with them and say like, I know this sounds like, I know this sounds crazy, but could you ever see us being together? And honestly, I think so many of the best relationships I know are friends that turned into something more. So look around at your group. Another one is this thing I have called the events decision matrix. This is a little bit more pre-COVID or maybe post-COVID, but a lot of us have a lot of events that we could go to, but we're fatigued, we're tired, we don't know which ones

to go through. So this is a strategy for figuring out what events to go to. So you basically think about it on two axes. So one is, what is the likelihood that I'm going to enjoy this event? So, you know, if you really like movies and it's a movie marathon, that's high. If you really hate jazz and it's a jazz concert, obviously that's low. The second axis is what is the likelihood that people will interact here? So yeah, a movie marathon, something high where you would like it, but nobody talks at that.

versus like a dinner party of six, you're going to meet and talk to every single person. So you take all the events that you can go to, you plot them on this thing, right? Some are low likelihood of interaction, high likelihood, all like it. Low likelihood, I'll like it, high likelihood of interaction. And the ones that you go to are the ones that fall in this magical quadrant of you're likely to interact with somebody and you're likely to enjoy it. And so I had this client, she was a black woman, she was experiencing a lot of racism them on the app. She was getting really stressed. She was going on days and literally having to ask people,

like, do you think Black Lives Matter? And she's just having a traumatic experience. And we did this exercise together. And she found that she had this upcoming book club she was invited to where they were talking about between the world and me, the book by Tana Hossi Coates. And she went to the book club. And after the book club, she had six guys' numbers. And she went on a bunch of first dates. And it's like, it wasn't her. It was that she wasn't meeting the right piece. And it's like, it was that she wasn't meeting the right people. And so it's like when you find these like gold star events, like you're going to be yourself, you're going to be your best, even if you don't meet anyone, at least you had fun because it's the type of event you like. And so really, as you're thinking about ways to meet people in real life, find these

events, high likelihood you'll enjoy it, high likelihood of interaction. I love this. And like, I made this promise to myself when my engagement ended a long time ago that I would start saying yes to everything. Because I was like, I have nothing to do on Saturday nights. I have like, I'm not excited about my life. I'm bored. I'm going on and I promise myself I would say yes to everything. I probably said yes to too many things. But like it's like that avoidant person you're like they're never going to mean anybody because

they're not trying and they're clearly avoiding dating. Like I think I avoided being a part of life in general because I just got lazy because I had a boyfriend. So I said yes to everything and my life like completely changed. I went to all this shit that I like never would have gone to and I met people doing it and like it sucked and it was annoying and I didn't want to go to all these things and it was tiring and I didn't want to like I didn't want to six outfits a week.

But I was so glad that I did it because I, like, actually met people. Mm-hmm. So maybe the last thing we talked to you about and then we will let you go. But I think that some people are, you know, they go on a first date and it's like, okay, you know, they're not sure if it was great. They're not sure if this is like a long-term partner. So one thing you talked about is deciding if you're going to go on a second date or not. So, like, if you don't feel this crazy spark with somebody, but you're like, I don't know,

like you were talking about it could be a slow burn. This does see, like, somebody. that I like who's nice. Like, how do you decide whether it... Because some people say, if it's not a fuck yes, it's a fuck no. You know? So how do you advise people?

This is a hard one. And so in my book, I have this chapter called make the second date the default. And it's all about the fact that some people just don't perform well in a first date. They're really nervous.

You could be missing this incredible gem because they're not so charming and sparky on the first date. And so I'm like, assume that unless something terrible happens or they're disrespectful or they make you feel unsafe, you'll go on the second date. But then I get all these, follow-up questions that are like, is two dates enough? Is three dates enough? Is there a magical

number? And I honestly think that that's a nuanced thing and it's hard. In general, I feel like you should give yourself a few chances to understand, is there more to this person? And so I have this list called the post-date eight. And these are eight questions that you ask yourself at the end of the date that help you decide if you want to see the person again. And so some of them are things like, how did my body feel around them? Did I feel tense or did I feel relaxed? Did they make me laugh? Did I feel heard? Was there anything that I was curious about with them?

And so the point of the post date eight is that it helps you actually after the date and even on the date tune into the stuff that matters. So instead of focusing on like what does he do for a living or who paid, you focus on like what side of you they brought out if there's more to them. And what you want to feel is each date, you become more curious about them. You admire them more because that's really what a slow burn is. It's after each date you like them more. and more versus the sparky person who over time they kind of burn out. And so I'd say, as a general rule, assume that you'll give somebody at least two dates. Sometimes it takes more dates.

Sometimes you know right away. But the whole point is you want to find that person who other people missed out on because they weren't immediately sparky. And a good way to do that is by giving somebody more than one date. Okay. I like that. I just, sometimes I just can't. If it's a fuck no, it's a fuck no.

You know what I mean? Like I don't know that it has to be a hell. yes. But like if it's a fuck no, maybe it's like yes, no veto. And if it's veto, you don't go on the second date. But if it's no, you give them a second date. Yeah, that's a good call. And yeah, I mean, I love the idea of fuck yes or no, but I don't think that applies to this first date because I think that the slow burn is so real. You know what I mean? Maybe it's like the fuck yeses are the sparks. And then the noes are the slow burns. But then the fuck no is like don't see them again. Yeah. If I threatened me in a bar. Yeah. Or like he just had the voice.

small. I just talked like Michael Jackson. You guys just like have news on it. Logan, this was so wonderful. We could talk to you forever. I know, I know. I know. I want to buy your book.

Yeah. I think that people would just be really excited to hear where they can find you and all of your other insights. So if you can guide the listeners to everywhere they can find you. Absolutely. Yeah. People can follow me on Instagram and Twitter at Logan Yuri. And then I also do one-on-one coaching.

And I've started teaching these cohort-based classes. So I'd love for some of your listeners to sign up for that. so they can go to Loganuri.com and learn more. And then for anyone who's interested in their dating tendency, I have a quiz at Loganuri.com slash quiz, and you'll find out which type of dater you are. I love that. Well, this has been such a pleasure.

You are in San Francisco, so we'll see you at the Masonic Theater in February when we're there. Yeah, we can make it. I will definitely be there. Thank you so much. This is wonderful. Yay. Thank you, thank you. You guys are the best.

Great to meet you. Okay, bye. And guys, you know where to find us. Girls Gotta Eat Podcast.com for tickets, merchandise, sign up for the newsletter. Girls Got to Eat Podcasts on Instagram. I am Ash Hess on Instagram and TikTok. Grain is ran in dot Greenberg. Girls underscore got eat on Twitter and YouTube.com slash girls got to eat.

And we'll see you next week. How good week, guys. Bye.