Girls Gotta Eat - Breaking Down High-Functioning Codependency with Psychotherapist Terri Cole

Episode Date: October 14, 2024

If you've ever felt like you're doing too much for everyone else (or even just one person) at the expense of yourself, this episode will speak to your soul. We're talking about high-functioning codependency with psychotherapist and author Terri Cole. She explains high-functioning codependency, how it differs from traditional codependency, and how to know if you're this type of person and/or in this type of relationship with a partner, friend, or family member. We discuss breaking these cycles, what to do instead of "auto advice giving," co-parenting, the sneaky codependency of female friendships, why codependents attract narcissists, how to handle "boundary destroyers," and more. Before Terri joins us, we're talking about our new favorite sex toy, an iconic email Rayna's sister-in-law sent to the family, and Ashley's strong feelings about breakfast hours. Enjoy! Find Terri on Instagram @terricole and get her new book Too Much. Follow us on Instagram @girlsgottaeatpodcast, Ashley @ashhess, and Rayna @rayna.greenberg. Visit girlsgottaeat.com for tour dates, merch, and more. Thank you to our partners this week: La Croix: Find a list of retailers that sell La Croix Sparkling Water at lacroixwater.com. Robinhood Gold: Get the privileges of high net worth for any net worth for $5/month at https://robinhood.com/gold. Hand and Stone: Enjoy free aromatherapy with your introductory facial at https://handandstone.com with code GGE or in spa. Fresh Direct: Get $50 off your first order at https://freshdirect.com with code GGE. Nutrafol: Get $10 off your first month's subscription and free shipping at http://nutrafol.com with code GGE10. Helix: Get 20% off all mattress orders and two free pillows at https://helixsleep.com/gge. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

So for people who are listening who are like, well, how do I know? How do I know if I'm codependent? How can I tell? I always say a good place to start is with doing a resentment inventory. This podcast is a Dear Media production. Hi guys. Hi guys. Welcome back to another episode of Girls Got Eat. Welcome back. I just got off the rugby field. We're not vibing today. We are no, not viying. I'm wearing leopard pants. We couldn't be different. I look like a man. That's why I not that shirt back. I look like a beautiful man. You threw your hoops in. I hate this shirt. I want to like it. And I bought, so if you guys are not watching, she's wearing this like striped rugby shirt, which is very in. And I bought a few. And I have since sent them all back.

Oversized. This is like I have so my, you know what? Rugby shirts aren't tight. No, no. I had one that was like a rugby shirt. I wore it in an episode. It was like a cropped baggy shirt. And everyone said I was the guy from Blues. clues in our comments. And so I threw it out. And now here I am trying again. I'm out on rugby shirts. I'm not a rugby player.

I mean, you have to style that with like a little white miniskirt. Yeah, I did buy little white bike shorts, but nothing is scarier than my ass and a tight pair of white bike shorts. I'd rather be... You went white, not Navy. That was it, not Cerulian.

You went white. The Navy is like kind of hard. This isn't Navy. It's like, it's kind of hard to match. Like, I'd rather go different color all together. other than not be able to match the blue. I go Navy with that. But this is how are you going to find

this Navy? I think a different shade of Navy would be fine. You guys let us send in the comments. It's blue's clues. What is it? Steve? Remember what every, what was the thing about him? People thought he was my ex-boyfriend. And we used to get so many comments about it that everybody thought that he looked like my ex. Yes. You're right. That was the first Steve Gate. But the other thing was that what was it that he died? Oh, did people think he died? Remember for It was around the same time. I was like, what? This guy is back.

In the mix. In your body? Yeah. Wasn't Blue's clues about a dog? I thought it was a man. It was a dog named Blue. Oh, it was a blue dog. But that's a blue.

Azul. He left. Right. Because Steve was the man and it was about the cartoon blue dog. Was the dog blue? He was a blue cartoon dog. Azul's leaving. Okay.

He's like, I'm not. being associated with this. The other day, or yesterday, this little girl, I love when kids come up to him. A few things make me have like a little bit of a pang for children than like when they come up to a Zool and they're like, hi, can I pay your dog? And I'm like, oh my God. This little girl came up yesterday and she was like, can I pet your dog? And she was like, his name's a Zol. And I go, what the fuck? And then I'm just realizing she read his tag. But I was like, she's a witch. Listen, kids scare me a little bit. Like this is six sense. Yeah. It's like a six cents kid or like children of the corn or like the shining kids like she goes his name's is all and i looked at her mom

like what the fuck and then i was like oh he's wearing a tag i scared that shit out of me and then i'm like you can read meanwhile she's probably six like i never know how old kids are i've never known you could show me a three-year-old and tell me it was six or two no no idea no clue anyway and my nephew turned two today as we record his birthday was the eighth also reina we're gonna talk about Why not talk about our anniversary? It's past. We were out of a fight yesterday. No, we were not a fight.

No, our anniversary is passed, but happy seven. You don't even know how many years we've been together. Because I think of 2017 and 2018. So seven year friend anniversary. Yeah. Look at us now. Okay. Let's think some of our partners.

We'll get into it. Thanks to Robin Hood Gold. Get the privileges of high net worth for any net worth for $5 a month at robinhoog. dot com slash gold and hand in stone enjoy free aromatherap with your introductory facial at handenstone dot com with code gge or in spa and thanks to fresh direct get fifty dollars off your first order at fresh direct dot com with code gge and thank you to neuterful get ten dollars off your first month subscription and free shipping at neutroful dot com with code gg 10 helix get 20% off all mattress orders and two free pillows at helix sleep dot com slash gg and lecroy find a list of retailers sell

Sparkling Water at LaCroy Water.com. You guys, I'm so excited. We're announcing the release of our newest vibrator. We are so proud of this. This has been like a long time coming. And it fills a hole in the in the vibes only community. It doesn't enjoy it. It's an external vibrator actually, Ashley.

But it is called the poppy. It is a palm-sized vibrator. I can't wait to show it to you guys. So I'm just going to take it out of this beautiful light pink box. It has a finger grip. on it so you will never lose control of it. It is the perfect palm size vibrator for a solo sesh, a partner sash. It's the perfect starter vibrator. There's just one button to turn it on and the finger grip will allow for a partner to use it all over you. It comes to a point so that you can get

really controlled vibrations where you want them. It is squishy. It is soft. It's just my favorite thing. It has great deep vibrations. It's perfect for travel. I can't say enough about her. Yeah, we love this. This has been a long time in the making. No one else is doing this. We really just developed this based on some features that we wanted to include.

Again, it's like a totally one-of-a-kind vibes-only product. We make all of our products with the softest, squishiest body-safe silicone. And obviously, the color is gorgeous. And it really is designed for anything you want. I mean, I love to have it like wear it both weights. wear it both ways. I mean, you have the finger grip both ways so you can have it more where you're using the point to your side on your erogenous zones or shift it around and you really have it like in your palm. So it is just perfect for so many different scenarios and I'm just like obsessed with the

color. And as we were developing this, we just had to make it perfect like the the finger grip and the squishiness and it was just really important to us that it felt so comfortable in your body. One of the reasons why we wanted to start this company was because we saw all the things we didn't like about other sex toys from other sex toy companies. And so many of them are hard. And you're putting them in your body. And like they need to be soft and squishy and comfortable. Yes. And it feels really comfortable to wear it and to have it pressed against you. And we really played with the shape a lot. We really wanted to mimic your hand completely. Yeah. And so many people say what's the perfect starter vibrator? This is the perfect starter vibrator to me. I would say there's not a ton of bells and

whistles. There's not an air pulse. You don't insert it. It is just vibrating. And there's this perfect handle so that like if you want to use a little bit of lube, like you, I've told me in the past you'd like to use lube with the vibrators. Just a little dab and it really elevates the experience. Yeah, and you're not going to slip and slide out of your hand with that. So it's perfect for like nipple play or if your partner wants to use it down there on you. Also, the shape is really, it almost looks like a pear. So it's not phallic looking. If you have a partner that just it kind of takes them out of the vibe to have something that looks really phallic, this is just a nice, beautiful silicone magenta color and the shape is perfect. Yeah, I love to send people pairs for the

holidays. Holiday pairs. This is your new holiday pair. I know Harry and David does pairs. Yeah. So this can be your holiday pair this year. Instead of sending people a fruit basket, send them a vibrator and buy for yourself. So this just, it satisfies so many needs, travel with it, use it with your partner, toss it in a bag, an overnight bag, perhaps. and the poppy is available at vibes only.com. And of course, we have some really fun stuff coming out for the holidays for you guys. We released our Red Velvet Second Blowjo,

which is a great oral enhancer a couple weeks ago. And more great stuff coming for the holidays. And of course, all of our vibrators are Bluetooth connected. So this connects to the app. You can get in our app for free. And that's going to let you control it via the app. You don't need the app to control it. You can control it manually.

But you can let your partner control it from long distance. So this is great if you're in a long distance relationship, like myself or whatever you have going on, you're, you want someone to just kind of take control your vibrator and really spice it up from afar. They can download the app and use it that way too. And there's erotic audio in the app. I'm in a bunch of different things as well. But it does connect to the vibes only app like all of our toys. Yes. So enjoy it guys. We hope you love it. And if you get it, please give us feedback. We would love feedback. We're really, really proud of this one. Yes. Get it for yourself or for

a partner. The packaging is beautiful. It's a great gift. Well, I don't want to like bring the mood down, but I just at least want to address kind of like what's happening in the world with the hurricanes just back to back Hurricane Helene. And as we record this, Hurricane Milton, I mean, no one's even recovered from Hurricane Helene. I know it's a different part of the country. Hurricane Milton is coming towards Tampa and Florida. And like the Hurricane Helene was the Carolinas.

And it's just, it's just devastating. And so we just encourage you guys to check in on anybody you have in those parts of the country that could have been affected and donate if you have the resources and see where you can put your money if you are financially able to do so. Obviously, the Red Cross, and I saw Feeding America. And I post a lot of resources as well. I do post GoFundMe's because people get that money immediately and I try to vet them as well as I can. Heather McMahon has been done, has done an incredible job. Obviously, she's someone who lives in the South. And right now, as we record, we don't know what's going to happen with Hurricane Milton. So obviously we're hoping for the

best, but everyone had to evacuate. They're talking about it like this is going to be completely catastrophic. So we at least just wanted to acknowledge what's going on. And we feel for anyone in those areas, our listeners, anyone that had to evacuate, leave their home, anyone who has lost their home, lost family members are still finding people who have died in these events. And so we just wanted to address it because it's awful. Yeah. So our hearts are with you. If there's anywhere else that you can think to donate, I love churches and schools, anywhere than on a smaller local level, you can donate or volunteer is also fantastic. Yeah. I mean, I posted stuff for pets and animals. I mean, I think, you know, first, but it's just like these pets. Like I just, these shelters need help. And so whatever speaks

to you really, you know, the help is needed and it will be for a really long time. Yeah. Okay. What next? So I have a nephew that's being born in like two weeks. I'm very excited. I'm so excited to meet him. And my sister-in-law and my brother, but most of my sister-in-law sent up this email to everybody. They're in London. And so everybody wants to like go visit them. And with a big family. Everyone's to go to London and like meet the baby and stay with them. And I think that they've just been, they've been conscious of the fact that like on top of the fact that are having a baby, that all the people want to like come take a trip to visit them. And so my sister-law sent out this email, call it like her boundaries, her don't cross me boundaries email. Subject's line, don't cross me.

And I just, it made me laugh so hard. I was just, I was proud of her. I think that she's just like, everybody shows up and everyone wants me to like make plans for them and they make a mess and they hang around the house a whole day. And I'm just, I'm not trying to do that with a baby. And so she sent this email and I wonder if like any of our listeners have ever done anything like this before if other people have done this because she just was like worrying about stuff and she was like I think I'll just send this email she broke it out into bullet points health and safety help what is the subject line excited for you to meet baby Greenberg okay I like kept it positive keep it light yeah she kept it positive and then open up and you're like bam don't fuck with me yeah all these rules she you know she

she does she keeps it light we're so excited for you to visit me baby Greenberg your support love means the world to us. Love this. Yes. Butter people up first. Can't wait to share our special time with you. To help things run smoothly and ensure everyone's health and comfort, we'd like you to share a few guidelines for your visit.

Not the guidelines. This is so funny. This is like before you check in a hotel. And they're like, here's what you need to know. Yes. It's the need to know list. And then she bolded some different headlines and then there's details. So health and safety.

She asked everybody to get some vaccines, which is pretty normal. Your brother did that as well. And her mom's a nurse. also encouraged us to get some. Helping out is the next one. Love it. We'll be adjusting to life with a baby. We'd like you to help around the house.

Things like cleaning the kitchen, bring a meal, walk our dog. Fuck if I'm walking a zool for six months after I have a baby. Everyone else is walking that dog. Help with lay chores. And then she explains the chores, vacuuming, tidying up. Don't leave it vague. Come over and vacuum. She's like, how many details can I build into this?

Oh my God. We kindly ask that with each visit, every time you come over, you choose something small to help with. It makes a big difference. She's like, I don't mean when you come for the whole trip vac he wants. I mean, every time you're in our home, do something. Yeah. Oh, my gosh. Visiting hours.

No. Like it's a hospital. Our energy levels will be up and down. We need some quiet rest time to bomb with the baby. So visiting hours may vary in terms of when and how. long you stay like it's a hospital. We love your company, but please don't expect to hang out all day. Perfect. It's my favorite line of the whole email. Don't hang out here all day. Yeah. I want to be at my house with my baby. You can go to a hotel. Yeah. I love it. I think it's hysterical.

One group at a time. One in one out. We're at marquee. They need a bouncer. Let me know if you want my brother to come there and work the door. I do want him to come. He's like, we're at capacity. You have to come back. I try to come in there like, pup, pup, there's already another sister in here. You have to book another window. Sorry, Katrina's here. And I like how she makes this all sound like it's for our benefit. So one group at a time, we want to make sure you each get quality time with the baby. She's like, how can I make it sound like it's your decision and not mine?

We want to give everybody a meaningful experience. We prefer that there is minimal overlap to visitors. I feel this. Like, I feel like you have a baby and people like storm the castle and everybody wants to be with you. I mean, who doesn't? This is like the first baby of the family. Yes. I mean, I didn't get an email like the.

which no judgment and I love this. But I think my brother... I knew this wasn't directed at me. This is not about me. But Matt was good with setting boundaries because it's Matt's job as I'm his sister to kind of see what Steph does and doesn't want. And when I went down there that first weekend,

I wasn't just in and out as I pleased all the time. Like she's breastfeeding, you know, and I mean, she doesn't care. We're family, but she was not wanting a bunch of people around that first week. I mean, you know, every mother is different, but I definitely understand when you're like, I don't want a bunch of people in here whenever they please. Totally.

You're trying to work out sleep and breastfeeding, whatever it is. So I was like very cautious and like always checking in with Matt, you know, even though I just wanted to like be there all the time, you know. Everybody wants to be there. And I think that they don't want to insult everybody. Yeah. I think they're just like, also it's not like, it's not really that fun when all of us are all together on top of each other.

Yeah. Some of us. I'm always fun. Yeah. But I think that. But it's like also you guys were on planes and in hotels and it's germy to begin with. And like, like, I don't expect to just hang here all day and be like, we're fine. We'll watch TV.

She's like, I don't want that. Yeah. I love it. Well, so who is going and when? I think her parents are going to go like right now. They'll be there for the birth. And her sister also will go like at the tail end of that. And her mom and her sister are both nurses.

So big value ads there. Yeah. I am changing diapers. Yes. I am not a value ad. I can't even imagine. I just. Changing a diaper.

I will not be helping. I haven't even been in the room with somebody else has. been changing a diaper. I don't think so. Why would I? I don't know. You're friends and stuff. Like I don't think upstairs. I've always been in that. Like I've been around it. Like, and like Lee is always like with Corey's kids. It's like, Lee's going to change a diaper here and it's foreign to me. Like what I remember one time at Corrie's and like Lee changed a diaper. I was like, whoa, whoa. That's crazy. Also Lee used to work with babies. But it's like it's so beyond my comprehension. Like I would do it if I was forced to if it was the apocalypse. And they were like, Ashley, you got to change a diaper. I guess I would. Figure it out. I've never done it. I'd be. Pick up shit. Don't worry. I have a dog. But it's not that. It's just like, that's not in my wheelhouse. I think people purposely take the babies into the other room. They're not doing it in front of me. They're like, she's not going to add any value here. She's going to like talk shit, make fun of this. No one's ever like even asked me. That's not on the table. No. That's not a thing.

No. Like I think I'm going to never change a diaper in my life. Like I'm going to die and that will be a thing I never did. Bucketless shit. What's on my bucket list? It's the anti-bucket. I'm in my deathbed. Like, I never changed a diaper. My nephews and nieces are around me. I'm like, sorry, I never changed your diaper. It's my final words.

They're like, we have kids of our own. You don't even have to bring that up anymore. Yeah. Yeah, I won't be changing diapers. I'll vacuum if they really want me to. Oh, I'd be vacuum in. I'd be doing dishes probably. Maybe.

Yeah. I would like to just pay for takeout to be delivered. I don't want to clean anything. I love laundry. I'd help with laundry. I'm a value ad because I'm the entertainment and that's the value I bring Personality hire. Yes, I'm the personality

and I will buy dinner. I will have things dropped off. That's my contribution to all this. I will pay for the food. I'm probably not going to walk your dog. See, that would be mine. I don't know Rainer, you might just step it up because, you know, those early days they don't care about the personality. You've got to pitch

in. I don't want to. You got to pick a job. I can't cancel my trip. It's the fact that Rainer responds all. She's like, I actually, I think I'm all set. Yeah, I'm not going to go. Send picks. My dad replied all with a yellow thumbs up. That is so funny. I didn't even know he knew about emojis. My dad's 78. He reacted to the text. Yeah. He replied all to the whole family group. Any other replies all? Yeah, her mom. Okay. Replied all. The nurse. Her mom, the nurse. Two more things I strongly suggest. Handwashing, critically important.

More rules. And masking on the plane on the trip over the pond. I'm going to do that. No, you're not. No, you're not. I'm going to get these vaccines, though. I know you're not going to. I'm going to get the vaccines. You're going to post an Instagram story that everyone's going to know you didn't.

I will get the vaccines. Tessa, book me a vaccine. So what I love about this is this is just her getting ahead of it. This is so you don't have any awkward conversations, like, so you can be like you knew this coming in. Don't say I didn't tell you. Yeah. Like, you didn't follow the rules.

You're out. Bye. You know, like, there's the door. You got the email. You got the email. Anyway, so I will meet the baby over Thanksgiving. My dad and I are going to go. And I'm very excited.

I'm going to go to Paris for a couple days too. Oh, I love it. Okay. Well, you said email and the receipt of an email, which just kind of reminds me of a story I want to tell you. I might have told you this, but I want to pop off to our audience. So I was at Soho House last week. And this is not like a complaining about Soho House.

This is... I complain about it all the time. But, you know, it's not that. It's anyone who has rules like this. And so I went to Soho House. And what I like to do is I like to get there around 11. am i.m i like to go up to the pool this is the one downtown i like to order breakfast i like to have my hot coffee and my eggs at the pool love the breakfast at oh house it's important breakfast always

ends at 1130 it always has that's an appropriate time for breakfast to end i mean first of all you know i'll order a salad at 9 a m but i will also order breakfast at 3 p.m however if you are serving food all day long what happens before 1130 if you end breakfast you can't serve a salad so for that oh you can't they can so i get there at 11 and i'm like i see the lunch menu is already down i was was like, this can't be happening. I'm here for the eggs. You are always there for the eggs.

And so my server comes over and his energy, he's just bitchy. And I usually really like everyone in L.A. is always so nice. Like notoriously, they can be kind of assholes at that place. But I just usually don't have that experience here in L.A. And he was just like kind of like, what can I get you? And I was like, hey, are you guys not serving breakfast? And he goes, it ends at 10.30. We sent out an email to all the members.

Also, what was the title of that email? That email. Exactly. Exactly. If it would have said breakfast hours, I would have fucking opened it up. And so I was just like stunned. And, you know, I would have expected him to be like, I know, it sucks. Sorry, you know.

And yes, I'm sure he's tired of hearing about it because we're all upset. Everyone's upset. So it's not his fault. But I was just like, I don't know how to handle this. And I would like some community in there. Yes. Can you hug me? No, I'm looking around.

Like, is anyone else, can someone else, like, relate to me on this? Can you give me a look? Just wink at me that you know that you're upset and I'm upset. at the same time. And then I just feel like we were in the standoff of like, what do we do here? So I was like, where am I going to get breakfast food? You know, like 10.30 ending breakfast is diabolical. Ahi tuna. Who wants to ahi, fried chicken? At 1030, it flips over to the lunch menu. Yes. Korean fried, Korean cauliflower chicken? Yeah. Ahi tuna. Guac. Put it on toast and I'll eat it. But it's just like, I was like, this is crazy. 1030 is crazy. Like, I hate an 11.

but I'll deal with it. It's acceptable. I'll eat an ahituna at 11. So I was just like, I'm taking this in and I was like, okay, well, I knew there was like a cafe downstairs. And I was like, is the cafe downstairs still serving breakfast? He looked me down the face. He goes, they have a croissant and a blueberry muffin. I was like, that's where I'll be then.

So I left my stuff. And I went all the way down, six stories. And I got down in that cafe. They had a full breakfast menu. I got an avocado toast. I got a yogurt parfe. There's a curb episode about this. Like when Larry starts bringing eggs to the restaurant and then everyone else is like,

well, why is he of eggs? Because everybody wants eggs. I love nothing more than an all-day breakfast cafe. You don't have to do that. That's not everyone's business plan. But you know that's why I love like the Australian cafes we go to, like rubies, Dudleys. What are some of the ones?

Oh, Great White, obviously. I just think 1030 is crazy. Do you? Well, take your weird quirk. of a morning salad out of it. It's a weird time to start serving lunch. Thank you. This is not high school.

We ate lunch at 10.30 in high school. First lunch was 10.15 in high school. There was three lunches and the first one started at 1015. But I think like the last one was like 1115. It still wasn't lunch. Oh no. Yeah. But it's a weird time to start serving lunch.

If you went to like McDonald's and they were like, we stopped serving breakfast at 1030, I'd be like, I guess that makes sense. But like a restaurant that is going to switch over immediately to a new me. you. However, So Who House loves nothing more than being like, I know that you pay to be a member here, but we are going to create all these arbitrary rules that make your life harder. Like, you could have your computer open at this table, but if you walk one inch in the other direction, you cannot have a laptop open in that, in that area. But I mean, I'm even removing them out of this. First of all, I think like an hour is just you could have eased us in.

That's crazy. Give us 11 and then like let us get used to that first. Like, I don't know. you want to be slowly desensitized to it. 1030 is so crazy. I mean, that's fast food. We've all known that since the beginning of time. You want McDonald's, Chick-fil-A breakfast. You've got to go early. But I find this crazy for a restaurant.

And it's not like there's some high-volume place. You guys can switch it over at 1130. I think everybody's going to be fine. I just feel like every decision that they make is like, how can we inconvenience people further? Like, what was the, their kitchen staff was like, we don't want to make breakfast anymore after 1030. Like, who decided like we can't do this anymore?

Yeah. I mean, I would love to know what people think. I feel like I am the norm, Larry David. Like, that's why there's a curb episode about it. Like, I feel like people would rather have breakfast at 1 p.m. and then lunch at 10. Totally. If you ask me which, which direction I wanted to go in with it. Yes. Which direction. Yeah, give me breakfast until three. Right. And you don't have to do that. I get it. If you're not that type of restaurant, but to cut breakfast off at 10.30, it's deranged. I feel for you in the way that, like, This is like when you think about something like all night long and you're excited to eat it in the morning and somebody has eaten your leftovers.

And like there's nothing. You have no recourse. Like you've already driven downtown. You're there. Getting everywhere in LA is so annoying. You've probably paid to park. Yeah. And you're just like now I'm here and I can't have my thing.

And I have no one to be mad at besides myself. Yeah. Anyway. Okay. Well, we have an amazing interview today with Terry Cole. I wanted to just flag one thing. We're talking about high functioning codependency. and when I was looking back at the interview, she says HFC, and most of you can probably do the math on it.

But I don't know if she says like HFC stands for high functioning codependent, high functioning codependency. So just wanted to say it if you kind of hear at some point her say HFC, that's what we're referring to. And we'd speak a lot about high functioning codependency. So again, you guys probably figured it out. But we at least wanted to like give a little heads up in case it's unclear. And this is a great episode. You guys are really in for a treat. So we're just going to thank some of our partners.

Then we're going to get right into it with Robin Hood Gold. you don't need a silver spoon to eat up the financial favors of the 1%. Robin Hood Gold allows others to get the rates and perks usually reserved for the high society. Now, the resourceful individual with Robin Hood Gold can earn the very liberal rate of 4.5% API on uninvested cash, receive unlimited 1% deposit bonuses, and be rewarded with a handsome 3% retirement boost on an IRA account. Robin Hood Gold provides the privilege of a high net worth for any net worth. These generous benefits are now available for only $5 a month. The new gold standard is here with Robin Hood Gold. Sign up at Robinhood.com slash gold. Terms apply for product-specific disclosures. Visit robin hood.com slash gold. Investing involves risk. Rates may change. Gold membership is offered by Robin Hood Gold LLC. Okay, LeCroy. Always so excited to talk about LaCroy. I feel like I'm daily LaCroix these days. I got to have that treat. And it's the only thing that I'll entertain with every time you know, I love to throw a party. It's the only thing I have out as a mixer. Yes. So we love to.

LaCroix sparkling water. If you were looking for refreshment flavor and sparkle without the guilt. So again, I said it's a treat, but it really technically is not any sort of sweet treat. There's zero calories, zero sweeteners, zero sodium. So it really is just the fizz and the flavor without the guilt or compromising your health. So they have so many different flavors. We love their new flavor, strawberry peach. I'm loving it. I'm loving the limoncello. I've always loved the pompal moose, the coconut. I love just like a coconut. I love just like a coconut sparkling water so much. The passion fruit is delicious. They do a guava. They do a cherry blossom, a mohito. And again, like, I just feel like this is something that I look forward to.

Like, I can really get myself excited to be like, okay, like after a long work day, I'm just going to sit out on my patio and have a LaCroix and just, you know, hang out with a Zool, maybe FaceTime somebody, and I just really look forward to it. So I really am in my sparkling water era, and LaCroi is it for me. We just love it so much. Again, it is about unique flavor, good health and love. Strawberry peach, combined sweet strawberries with juicy peaches for an innocently delightful sip of bliss. Enjoy this guilt-free beverage with zero sugar, calories, sodium, and sweeteners. So LeCroy Sparkling Water is available nationwide, and you can find a list of retailers on lacroix water.com. Join the LeCroy community on social media at LaCroi Water to share your

favorite flavors and connect with other LeCroi enthusiasts. Yes, and you guys know I'm a new customer of Handin Stone. I've been getting massages there. and facials. They have 600 locations nationwide. It's a really accessible place to go. And I just like absolutely loved it from every person I worked with there, the masseuse, the esthetician. And building consistent skincare routine with the same aesthetician is like having a personalized skincare coach and they'll get to know your skin intimately, track its progress and tailor treatments to address your evolving needs. This personalized approach accelerates results and helps you achieve your long-term skincare goals more effectively. So the girl that I work with. She was super smart, really knowledgeable. She put together like a custom package for me.

And then we talked about throughout the seasons, different things I can do each time that I keep coming back to her. And there was tons of different options available, really personalized skin care, world-class facial services, holistic wellness that they focus on. And like I said, really, really accessible for you. There's 600 locations across the U.S. and Canada. They prioritize self-care with easy scheduling and flexible membership plans. You can book online as well or in the spa. Enjoy free aromatherapy, a $10 value with your introductory facial. Use code GGE at checkout on handenstone.com or in spa before 1231, 2024. Okay, let's get into it. All right, guys, we are really excited to welcome this guest today for an amazing topic. She is a licensed psychotherapist and relationship expert who has

spent over 25 years working with a very diverse group of clients that includes everyone from stay-at-home moms to celebrities to Fortune 500 CEOs. She has been featured in the New York Times, Forbes, Vogue, Cosmo, CNN, literally everywhere. She is the author of Boundary Boss and the host of the podcast, The Terry Cole Show. Her new book comes out tomorrow, too much. Please welcome to the show at Terry Cole. Exciting.

Why, thanks for having me. We're so happy to have you. You came highly recommended from two former guests of ours, Diana Farron and her husband, Connor, who have been on the show multiple times. And Ashley and I had never done an episode. about codependency and we were looking for somebody for it. And Vienna just was like she's the one. She's the best. Got to have her. The sweetest. Yeah. I thought you're going to say she came in hot because you also came in hot. You know, you're just like our type of person. A New York woman.

You come in just like, what's up everybody? It's just like an energy about it. Like you're like, we are the same. Uh-huh. Let's talk about it. So I gave your background, but let's talk about you a little bit. Why you've specialized in this. Well, I think they say, you know, you teach what you most need to learn. And so I find that everything that I'm obsessed with learning and mastering is because I'm in pain for some reason. And then what I find is that all of my therapy clients, all of the women in my mastermind and the groups that I run and whatever, all have the same problem. So with boundaries was one of the first things that I don't even know what it was. Who knows? Nobody teaches you. You don't teach, learn it in school. Most families don't teach you how to do it. And in fact, as women,

we're taught to not do it. If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all. Nobody's teaching you how to assert yourself, right? They're all like, shut up and just be amenable, right? Be nice. And when you think about what are we valued for, and this may be a little bit different because you guys are younger than I am, but I don't think so, honestly.

Were you raised to be a good girl? No. But I do think that's a little rare. Yeah, I'm going to say that's very rare. Like that was not, in my experience, I think that's why it turned out how I, my parents were like Ashley's going to Ashley, you know, they know I was like this strong-willed, like, little kid. They like let me fly. And I don't know. I got lucky. It is really rare because I can I tell you, I've been talking about boundaries for many,

many years. I think you might be the first person ever. And seriously, I've been talking about it probably for 10 years, who said that they really weren't, that wasn't sort of put upon them. And I feel like most of the time we're expect to acquiesce to what other people want. Yeah. Be pleasing. Really, most of us are raised in praised to be self-abandoning codependence. Like, we kind of just are women. Women in particular. I mean, some men too, but what I know more is women. Sure. So anyway, how I got into it is, like, in my own therapy, not practice, but my actual therapy, I thought it was other people. I was like if my boss wasn't a jerk, if my boyfriend wasn't an idiot, if this person didn't do that, feeling very taken advantage of by other people, feeling very put out, not realizing at all.

I mean, until I had a good therapist who was like, uh, hello, who's the common denominator and all those relationships that would be you. And I realized maybe it wasn't them. Maybe it was me serving myself up on a platter and over functioning, overgiving, over delivering, over feeling, in fact, other people's feelings, feeling overly responsible for other people. And that created a lot of conflict in my relationships. So when I became more adept at boundaries, understanding that it's a language all into itself, my life changed in such a positive way that I was like, this needs to be shared with other people because it really wasn't. I wanted to write the seminal text. I wanted to write something where if you didn't know one thing about boundaries, you could pick up boundary boss

and from the beginning to the end by the time you're done with that book, you're like, I know how to set boundaries. I'm not afraid to do it. I realize it's a loving thing to do. I don't think I need to be a bitch to do it. Like all, you know, really hits all of the myths in that book. And then what came out of that book was people asking me a ridiculous amount about code of dependency and still feeling because there's one chapter in Bounderbox about codependency, but I realized there was so much more to say. And so that was what brought me to write this book too much. People really were like, wait a minute, we need more on that one chapter. Can you expand on that?

Yes, please. I think it's really misunderstood, including by me, a friend of mine was telling me that she's been, she went to a support group about being in a codependent relationship. And I don't really, I didn't really understand it. And when we put this to our audience, you know, what questions do you have about it? So many people said, where's the line? Can this be good? can you have a codependent relationship with a friend, with a parent?

Because I think it's understood in the context a lot of romantic relationships. And like you had said earlier in my kitchen, but an alcoholic, one person is an alcoholic, the other person is sort of like the savior. So maybe we just start by saying like what is the traditional definition of codependency? Well, let's start with, if we may, my definition of codependency. And then we'll say what the difference is. Okay. So being codependent is you being overly invested in the feeling states, the decisions,

the relationships, the outcomes, even the financial situations of the people in your life to the detriment of your own internal peace. Okay. Right. So you feel overly responsible for what is going on for someone else. Now, that is also the definition of codependency, right? The old school definition of codependency, why my clients, the reason I came up with high functioning codependency is because my clients did not identify with the Melody

Beatty codependent no more. got to be enabling an addict's behavior. And that's the main book on codependency. Correct. And she's updated it. And it's actually still a wonderful book. But the reality is it didn't cover what my clients were and my own flavor of codependency. So I was like, there's got to be something different.

And in all the years, I've been a therapist for 27 years, I really saw all of these patterns over and over again where the irony with high functioning codependency is that the more capable you are, the less. the less codependency looks like codependency, but it's still codependency. Okay. So I feel like I need some clarity. Because when I think of a codependent person, they're like reliant on someone else. They're like a meshed with someone else. So what is that? It's actually describing the other person.

It's the other person. But is the person that's, are they just the dependent? I guess I'm having trouble with like the definition and the two people that are in this relationship. Are they both considered codependent? but one is kind of carrying the other? We're talking about a relational dynamic. Okay.

Right. So we're really talking about how they interact with each other. So if you are my client, you're coming to me because you're frustrated in your relationships or you feel used and abused in some way, shape or form, or you're exhausted or you're burnt out, which is what all the people come to me for. You are over functioning, overgiving, over-instructing. You might be an auto-advocabiding the people in your life. You might be auto-accommodating the people in your life.

There's a problem. And you're like, no, it's not a problem. I got it figured. I got it fixed. I got it handled. It's done. It's good. You might be, do you see what I'm saying? So it's a control element that what we don't talk about a lot is the control element. It's a covert or overt bid to control other people's outcomes. You don't want your partner to lose their job. So when their boss calls like, why aren't they in work, you say they're sick, even though they're hung over. Right. And that may sound like the alcoholic one, but that is still codependency. But is the person who comes to you and is like, I feel like I can't live without my partner, they do everything for me, like I really need them? No, those people don't come to me. Okay. But are they also codependent and it's the relationship?

Yes, because look at codependency as like over and under functioning. Okay. So a lot of times you'll have, and you can be a codependent, meaning an active, an HFC in particular, because we're very good. Like with my clients, when I added high functioning to the definition, they were like, I'm the problem, it's me, suddenly. Where before they were like, if I would have said, you know, what you're describing is codependency, they'd be like, yeah, no.

Everyone's dependent on me, lady. I'm making all the cash. I'm making all the decisions. I'm managing the crap out of my household, my kids, my partner, my business, I'm doing it all. Yeah, and you're exhausted and bitter and, you know, all the things that come along with that. But they didn't identify. So exactly what you're saying.

It's great that you're asking these. questions because this is exactly the experience they were having. So when I said high functioning, where you're getting it all done, but you're getting it done at the expense of yourself. Right. They were like, yes. Because I think you think of it means a weakness. Yes. And that's what's, okay. Both people in the relationship, if we're talking about a relationship of two, are codependent, just one person is the high functioning one. Okay. So the definition I took from your book, Terry, that I found really helpful for me, a traditional codependency was an overinvestment in some of his life that leads to you automatically, instinctively, and even compulsively organizing your life around

others, creating lopsided and unhealthy relationships where you sacrifice your own needs to meet the needs of someone else, even if it's not asked for. So that feels more like a traditional definition of this that I understand. Yes. But when you're high functioning, then you add the high functioning piece and no one ever looks to you to say, hey, are you okay? Right. There are like, obviously, Ashley's clearly she's okay. She's going to be okay. Right. So again, there's a lot of, for me, the reason why I felt like there was a need to talk about this is that it was a different behavioral set in the being so capable and that my clients didn't know how to get help because they were like, well, that's not me, but I don't know what the problem is. Like,

that actually is you. And we can, we can change the problem, right? We can, we can fix the problem or we can at least get into recovery from the problem, which is really what I'm walking you through in this book is how do we shift our behavior so that we are not doing all the things for all the people and then feeling underappreciated. Feeling mad about it all the time. Yeah. Like there's like a low key vibe of like waiting to explode if you're doing so much all the time.

You're just, everything gets on your nerves. Like if you're low key annoyed all the time, you might want to look at how much you're doing. So for people who are listening who are like, well, how do I know? How do I know if I'm codependent? How can I tell? I always say a good place to start is with doing a resentment inventory. So this is a little GPS that can sort of guide.

you to where you might be overgiving or over functioning or trying to control and not being able to or just doing more than your share. And the question is, why? Why are we doing it? And it's fear. It's a fear-driven behavior. We don't want things to be out of control. We don't want the people we love to suffer. We don't want something bad to happen. But the confusion comes in with what is my side of the street and what is your side of the street. Got it. Okay. Something when we have put this to our audience, we said, you know, what do you want to hear about? What do you want to talk about? A lot of people say, can this exist in the context of friendship and parents? Because I think everybody knows, of course, romantic relationships this can happen. And I do want to talk about how that

manifests itself. But how does this look with a friendship or a parent? If you say, I have a codependent relationship with a friend. And you said that happens a lot with friends. Yeah, let's talk about friends. Yeah. Friends, it's interesting. Over the many years I've been doing this, I can tell you that female friendships can be as or more complicated than romantic relationships in what people experience. So with codependent relationships and friendships, you may have one person who's kind of the auto advice giver, right, is always the one who's got the answer for the other one, who might always be in crisis or might, you know, be more of an anxious type personality. But it's like there isn't a mutuality. So a lot of times my clients would be like, I'm afraid

to tell my friend this because she's judgment. I'm afraid to tell my friend I got back with my ex because she didn't like him and didn't want me to. Yeah. Right. So can you see how that's not, that's not a healthy friendship if you're afraid of their judgment? But a lot of times we are, you know, repeating realities. We call them repeating relationships where you might have had, let's say, a very bossy or controlling or codependent relationship with your mother, then you may find women who are very similar in that way. Okay. And then with a parent relationship? I mean, this is incredibly common. Yeah, I can imagine. All the time. Well, what does it look like? I mean, codependency, again, let's bring it back to the control. Do you have a parent who you don't feel like you can make a move? You're a grown adult. You may have children of your own and you don't feel like you can make a move without talking to your parent about this. I had so many clients who are codependently attached to the approval and the validation.

of their parent. And, you know, and I think that in a way that really is a failure on the parents part, right, there has to be a point when we realize that as parents, our job is to, like, prepare kids to go out into the world. And I think the most painful realization for me around being a high functioning codependent in my relationships was like, what are we really doing when we are auto advice giving, right? When we are jumping in to save, we are centering the other person's situation on our grade A advice, even if our heart is in the right place, right? This is not to make people feel bad. Listen, we all love our people, right?

So it's not that. But for me, I had a situation with one of my sisters who was living with a crack addict in the woods without running water and no electricity. And my sister was an alcoholic at the time. And so this was obviously, to me, a five alarm fire every day that she was in this situation. I was like losing my shit, like calling my therapist, bawling my face off and just being like, what do I do? Trying to send her books and trying to get a lot. Like, what should I call the police and rat him out?

Like, I don't even know. Trying to do all the things. And I remember saying to my therapist, Bev, what am I going to do? And I was bawling. And she was like, all right, to her, what makes you think you know what your sister needs to learn in this lifetime. And I was like, I don't know. I think we can all agree. She doesn't need to do it with a crackhead in the woods without running fucking water.

Right. Can we agree it to that? Yeah. And she said, no. Because I'm not God, Tara. I don't know what she needs to learn. But do you understand what's happening with you in this scenario? And I was like, obviously not.

So maybe help. And she said, you've worked really hard to create a harmonious life. Your sister's dumpster fire is really messing with your peace. So you really wanted to get cleaned up so you can get back to having a peaceful life. I was like, oh my God. So me wanting to help her, yes, it was about not wanting her to be in that horrible situation, obviously. But it was slightly more about me, and it was me centering myself. So what she helped me do was set a boundary.

And this was obviously many, many years ago. So this is before I knew. I still didn't know much about boundaries, obviously, because I was very in mesh with my sister. And she said, you know, you don't have to talk to her about this horrible situation. Because every time she would talk to me, my sister would leave going, wow, I feel so much better. And I'd be like, why do I feel like a toxic waste dump site? Yeah. Yeah.

Like someone just sort of vomiting on you. And so I said, I really can't talk about this with you. But I love you. And if you want to get out, I'm always your person, like when you're ready. And less than nine months later, she called and was like, are you still my person? I was like, yeah. Yeah. I am.

Picked her up. She went back to school. Got sober. But the most important part of the story, you guys, is that she became the hero of her story. She saved herself. Yeah. She's not a victim and then I got to be the hero again like I had been in my family system over and over again. And it was about her.

So her self-esteem got so good and she's still sober to this day. Wow. I love that. And this is really what I've, I mean, I've never been to an Al-Anon meeting personally. I have a friend who spent a lot of time in Al-Nan meeting. If people don't know what that is, it's classes and group therapy. For people who are in relationships with people that are alcoholics and drug addicts. And my friend who's been in it for quite a while said it the hardest thing for him was letting go of this need to

save somebody else because like you said, you sit there and you say, well, obviously drinking is bad for them. Drugs are bad for them. I'd like to help them and this complex, I don't want to call a complex, that's not fair, but needing to save somebody. It's hard to let go. But the fear could be, you're afraid they're going to die. That's why you said. If someone could tell you, like they're going to live so chill out, that might hit a little different, but like I would be like I think they're going to die. I mean, listen, that is definitely the fear, of course. But let's just say It wasn't as an extreme example. Right.

Because think about in that extreme example, I had done all the things that I could to get her out. Yeah. And it was like what my therapist was saying is that that isn't your side of the street. Yeah. You can encourage, you can be willing to help pay for therapy, you can do all those things. But at the end of the end is you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink. And understanding what is and isn't our responsibility is such an important part of not being in co-dependent relationships. But there's a way to stay lovingly connected to our people without trying to control them.

And that's on the other side of this. When we get into recovery, what does that look like for our relationships? Yeah, I love that distinction. So people, I think really were like, where's the line? Like Ashley said, you know, of course you look at something. You're like, I can help them. I'm a higher functioning person. I can help this person.

I love them, not just with alcoholics, but just in general. So like where's the line between like codependency and interdependency? When do you cut bait? All right. So let's talk about interdependency because that's really the goal. right. Co-dependency is where there's too much, too much enmeshment, too much this person overfunctioning, this person underfunctioning. Interdependency means we depend on each other, means that we have our lives separate from each other and we have our lives together. It means that it's like a healthy dependency

is what it is where I can count on my husband. If he says he's going to do something, he'll do it. If I need him to drive me somewhere, he will. If he says he's going to call me, he does it. If he'll take care of the dog when I'm gone, he does all the things. that interdependency where there's mutual trust. It isn't just one person being very high functioning and the other person under functioning, which is what a lot of codependency is. Okay. I think maybe people misuse the word.

I don't know. I'm thinking of like in a romantic relationship, like a couple that's just like kind of unhealthily obsessed with each other. They can't be apart, you know. And that can be really nice and romantic. I hate being apart from him. It feels like, you know, I'm part of me is missing. But like women that say like I would never take a girl's trip. I can't go anywhere with him.

Yeah. I can't be a part. I can't do anything without the other person. Does that veer into this as well? I mean, I would not, from a therapeutic point of view, that does not sound healthy to me. Right. But here's the thing. If people are happy with what they're doing in your little codependent, cozy little bubble, and you really are actually happy, it's who am I to say? Well, my work and why I write the books that I write and the things that I do are for women and people who feel. There's a pain point. I don't feel seen or known or heard because I'm always the one in the driver's seat because nobody's checking back on me. Because as a high function and codependent also, we don't like to be vulnerable. We're happy for other people to be vulnerable. We want to step up when they need help. How likely are we to ask for help? And I can tell you, if you're in HFC, the answer is not very likely. And that maybe you learn how to do it in business, but a lot of times in personal life, We don't want to be a burden on other people. This is something that I've seen over and over. And there's a hyper-independence that can come with high-functioning codependency,

where it's almost like you're this little island on your own, but it gets old. And in your 20s or your 30s, you can do it for a long time. But I'm seeing what happens where the autoimmune disorders that come from the chronic cortisol coursing through your system because it's stressful to be doing all the things for all the people, worrying about all the people all the time, making sure every, you know, when you think about what are some of the symptoms, right, is, so we said auto advice giving is one of them. Does that just mean, like automatically you're just, you're in that mode no matter what, someone comes to you and it's your job to solve their problems? Yes. Okay. That you don't even think about it.

It's not even, it's not even a conscious thought. Someone's like, I have the answer, yeah. This is what, right. And when you're smart and capable, you do. This is part of the problem. And this is high functioning codependency, which you're describing. Yes. You're like your grade A advice.

You're like, I literally actually have the answer and I can't wait to give it to you. But we have to understand that it's not our side of the street and that when we love people, we need to respect their sovereignty. And it's also what you don't see is the bandwidth that you're bleeding by giving auto advice. It's exhausting and auto accommodating. This is another thing where we're out in the world and whether you're on a plane and someone needs to sit together and you're just overseeing and being like, well, I'll move. So like, it's okay and I got it. Oh, and do you need directions? And what can I do for you person in the world? Like, it's exhausting. I actually wrote something because I had this experience a bunch of years ago at my hair salon where

it was a busy day. The sink was backed up. And I'm laying there with a mask on. And I'm going to be there for 10 minutes. For the first two minutes, I'm fine. And then I'm like, well, it's getting to be a long line. I don't know why I'm sitting. I mean, they could use the sink. I could move. So I call over the assistant. I'm like, hey, like, I could sit anywhere. She's like, yeah. Yeah, I think we got it, lady. Yeah. Thanks. Thanks for worrying about the sink flow.

We do this every Saturday, bitch. Your color looks great. Yeah, your color is great. Yeah. Okay, just going to take a quick break. I'm going to tell you guys about Helix. I am so obsessed with Helix. I have been sleeping so well for years, honestly, since I've been on my Helix mattress.

It is so, so important. And Rain and I travel all the time, and we're going to be traveling so much in October. I'm just thinking about all the different. beds. We're going to be sleeping in different hotels. I'm going to be at my parents. Like, we're going to be in New York, Philly, all these different cities. And, you know, we try to stay in places that we hope we'll have, like, comfortable beds, but it still doesn't compare to our Helix at home. And I'm always so excited to get back home and, like, get a good night's sleep on my Helix mattress. I have the Midnight Lux mattress. I also have a Moonlight Lux in my guest

room. Rainen has a couple different models as well. We love the Dusk Lux. And you guys are going to just go on their website and take a little quiz and they're going to match you with the mattress for you based on your sleep habits. If you want soft, medium or firm, they're going to match you to the mattress that will give you the best sleep of your life. I mean, Rain and I at this point, I don't even know anybody close to me that doesn't have a helix. Like, we have gotten everyone on them from my parents, my brother and his wife. They have the plus size mattress to my cousin and her husband. I made my fiance get one for when I stayed at his house. I mean, he wanted one as well. But I I just, I feel like I'm not, I'm refusing to stay in some way.

If I could send a helix to every hotel we stay at, I would do that too. Call ahead. Yeah. Can you guys just start partnering with every hotel we stay at? Thank you. It's just, you know, sleep is so important and all the sleep issues you can have, you know, from night sweats to back pain to sleeping with a partner and they're moving around and all these things.

Helix can really just help solve those issues. You can take the quiz with your partner, see what mattress is going to work best for you. So we're just obsessed. We want everybody to have them and just improve your sleep game. And we have an offer for you. So you can get 20% off all mattress orders at helixsleep.com slash gge. Again, 20% off helixsleep.com slash gge. Yes.

And FreshDirect was like my cheat code for New York the whole time I lived there because I would literally spend like hours at the grocery store and then carrying it home was like so, so difficult. But Fresh Direct is really the answer to that and you don't have to like search the grocery store to look at fresh fruits and veggies and meats. they have absolutely everything. FreshDruct is farm to kitchen, food source directly from farmers, fishermen, ranchers. I always know what's going to be quality. I would worry in the past about these grocery delivery services because they don't pick the stuff out of the store that I would pick out. And FreshDirect always did. I save so much time every week because I didn't have to like sift through

grocery stores and produce. And FreshDrek says they are seven days fresher than the grocery store also, which is a huge difference in the freshest of your food, the convenience is. is unbelievable and the best part FreshDirect is only true replacement for a grocery store. They offer a wide range of products from pantry staples to specialty items, all at great prices. Another one of my favorite things to do is when I was hosting a party at my house. I always use FreshDirect to deliver stuff because you're doing enough. You're cooking and all the shopping. It's just like you could do this from anywhere, shop from the office.

It's great. For 20 years, FreshDirect has been delivering the freshest fruits, vegetables, and meats to the tri-state area. Don't take my word for it. Try it to believe it with $50 up your first. order, go to fresh direct.com and use the code gGE. That's fresh direct.com code gge for new customers to save $50 on their first order. Terms and restrictions apply C-Sype for details. Okay. And I'm going to talk about Nutraful. I'm going to go on a little off script because we met

the founder at a dinner last weekend, not at a dinner together, but he was there with his wife. And our friend knew him. So we went over to their table. And we were just like, we're such like long-time partners of the brand. We've been using it forever. And him and his wife, great hair. Yes, but she was like, I didn't used to have good hair. And he like saved me. And then she was like, you guys have such great hair. I mean, it was just such a nice interaction. Yeah, they were so wonderful. But we were just literally like fan-girling. But meanwhile, they're like, thank you for like promoting the product. And I just, I love it so much. I can't imagine my life without it. My hair is just, it just has changed so much. And neutral has helped me like get it back to what it used to

like back when we lived in New York, like back a couple years ago. Like I dealt with this ton of shedding. My hair changed completely. This was last year. And I feel like it takes like a couple of years even to like get that to where it used to be because I lost a lot of hair. It needs to come back. And so Nutraful is helping me do that. I really rely on it. I take my four capsules every day. And this is what's going to help with your hair thinning, shedding hair issues. Hair thinning affects approximately one and two women. So it's like totally normal. But it's just is not ideal. I mean, so much of our confidence and how we feel about ourselves and if we feel beautiful and feminine can come from our hair. And so when it just changes, it can be really upsetting and this is something you can turn to.

I think Tinks, she gets on her, ask me anything recently. People are like, what do you do for your hair? She like had the bottle of Nutraful. Like so many people use it. So many people rely on it. It really, really works. It is the number one dermatologist recommended hair. Go supplement brand trusted by over one million people.

You can see thicker, stronger, faster growing hair with less shedding in just three to six months. with Nutraful, and they really target the root cause because everyone's root causes of hair thinning and different. There's different formulas for stages of life, and you can just get on their site and see which formula is best for you. And then build your hair growth routine. You're going to purchase online, automated deliveries, free shipping, and you guys can get results. You can run your fingers through. For a limited time, Nutraful is offering our listeners $10 off your first month subscription and free shipping when you go to Nutraful.com and enter the promo code G. G-G-E-10. Find out why over 4,500 healthcare professionals and stylists recommend Nutraful for

healthier hair. Nutraful.com, spelled N-U-T-R-A-F-O-L dot com, promo code G-G-E-10. Okay. Well, you were something in your book. In our society, many, many features of high-functioning codependencyness, being thoughtful, caring, efficient, generous, selfless, are socially rewarded, rewarding, making it hard for people to understand how their own behavior is dysfunctional. Like, especially with women. There's a good thing. I mean, you tell the story of this. Was it you who took the guy in from the subway?

Okay, when you were really young. Yeah. Took in this, you know, person in your own home. You met him in the train station in Manhattan. I mean, it's crazy. Nothing happened. You lived to tell the tale. But it's just like, it's nice.

You're empathetic, your compassion. You want to help others. But I guess the line is where it starts to be at the detriment of your own mental health. because these things are positive. Yes, but here's the thing. Because everyone always says to me, well, what's wrong with being nice? Right.

I'm just nice like that. I just want to help. I'm just a helper. Right. This is what people say. And I'm like, if you can't not do it, it's not being nice. It's a compulsion.

Okay. Or I mean, when you describe feeling just angry about it, feeling like if I don't do something, everything will fall to me, if I don't take care of everybody's problems, no one's going to take care of it. And it's probably a bad world to be in. And also to not be able to just draw the boundary

and say like, if I don't take care of people's problems, they'll take care of it. Or they won't. Who cares? And that end, as Bev, my therapist said, we don't know what they're meant to learn and how they're meant to learn it. So when you step in, especially with parents and children, and you're constantly not allowing children to experience their choices and the consequences of those choices, you're really doing them a disservice because they're not ready for the world when it comes. And that's your fear. You stepping in as a parent, being codependently attached to a kid. Now listen, this can be tricky, right? Because of course, as parents, it's our job to take care of kids, to be there for kids. We committed that we're

going to do that. And yet, you can learn what is age appropriate? And so let's talk about what can we do instead of auto advice giving, have about that. Okay. Let's just start there. You can ask expensive questions, even if you have the best advice in the world. Your best friend comes and says, I'm in this situation. You always have the right answer. What should I do? Before you tell your best friend, what she should do, you're going to say, what do you think you should do? I trust your gut. Yeah.

You know, you're the one in this situation. The truth is nobody knows more, not even me, than you, what you should do. But I'm here. Not the time I'm going to do whatever I want to do anyways. And then you're going to be pissed that they didn't take your grade A advice. Yeah. Like if they'd only done that, then the bad thing happens.

And in our mind, we're like, man. I did say, no, that. I did say, yeah, exactly. We can't wait. I told you sew it up in our mind. We're not saying it to their face, but you're like, if she had ditched him when I said, right? It does not feel good. So expansive questions means we, first of all, get to know the people in our lives, right? When you know all the

answers, what you're blocking is like deep connection and intimacy and communication. What's right for you. Only you know that. And sometimes we have to make that terrible mistake. Sometimes we have to go through whatever that experience is. And what we want is friends who are willing to be in the foxhole with us and just hold our hand. and not be like, I have the answer. And if you listen to me, like, it doesn't feel good. To just be a problem to be fixed does not feel very loving. People do not want to be managed.

Do you guys like to be managed when someone's trying to manage you? Well, no. Not at all. I mean, we can't be managed. That's why we do this job. You know, I've had to work for myself. I always have problems with bosses and authority. Like the whole thing.

I knew I was the... She's Connie West. She can't be around. But I will say, sometimes I'm like, I just, I really need you to tell me what to do. She needs to be told where to live a lot. But sometimes I'm like, I actually do appreciate. Sometimes you got to tell what to do. I think sometimes we always can't trust ourselves.

But it's very sparingly. And I kind of need you reigning to be like a compass or my dad or my boyfriend or, you know. Yes. But what I was going to say is, though, you're probably very choosy as to whose opinion. A hundred percent. You asked for it. I told her she was a high functioning codependent. She was like, everybody around me is amazing.

And I was like, she's very choosy about who's around you. Yeah. I mean, if you think I am, then I'll take it. I don't think find it to be an insult. I think you're high functioning. I think we surround ourselves with other high functioning people. I do not want to go through life, you know, babying my friends, mothering my partner. I do think there's a level of Rain and I organizing things because we want to.

Yeah. You know, like I don't live with resentment within my close family friends partner. But then whatever you're doing is working. And it actually doesn't matter if it's high functioning, you know, if it's, If there's a control issue, if you feel good, right, in your relationships, that I feel like whatever you're doing is working. Do other people feel good in the relationship, right? Would they tell you if they didn't?

And I'm assuming they would. I mean, it sounds like you have healthy relationships. So I think that this is really about how do we feel and when there's a sense of not being known or when there's a sense of being marginalized or doing a lot for other people and not really feeling like it comes back your way? Yes. And feeling a little bit like. not taking care of in that way.

If you are the person who is very capable and sort of doing a lot of things, then sometimes it means that some of the, what we're trying to do is create a more equitable situation. Because what in my therapy practice, what I've seen is that so much of the time, women in particular are doing a lot of the emotional labor, right? So the invisible unpaid stuff that just keeps life going, whether it's paying the car insurance, whether it's if you have kids, whether it's buying the teeth. teachers, you know, gift at the end of the year, whatever the thing is, or just the regular stuff, right? Like food. Like, does the toilet paper replace itself? It does not. I feel like with the younger

generation of women, there's other options. You know, you've sort of got it locked different ways of doing stuff. So it's not exactly the same. But I still have so many clients who feel resentful because they are doing the lion's share of the burden, keeping the life running. So I'm glad that came up because I want to talk about being a co-parent with somebody. Because I think with a lot of these relationships where you're like, well, I won't give them advice anymore and they're on their own. And that's fine for like friendships, even a romantic relationship. But when you're co-parents, if you don't do something and you truly know your spouse is not going to do it, it still falls on you. So what does that look like?

How do you fix that when you're just like, I'm the mother. Everything falls to me. Yep. How does that look? But even in any relationship where the woman is doing all the heavy lifting, I mean, Ray and I've been in those relationships, you know, with partners, male partners who. we felt like we'd do everything or it wouldn't get done right and we lost trust in them and then you don't want to fuck them anymore I mean it's a whole mess right so but I mean there's like a child in the home so they won't eat if you don't feed it okay it's right two different questions but like this happens all the time women do this all the time and then you know it's almost a self-fulfilling prophecy so why men have to be with someone as soon as they go through breakup or the spouse dies because they're like I've been right this woman has done everything for me I've been infantilized I've been infantilized for my entire adult life yeah so exactly so two two things one

you said, okay, it's for the friendships. If I go, all right, I'm not giving them advice anymore, they're on their own. Okay, that's not being in recovery from high function. I go to bed and so I just want to clarify. You can stay very lovingly. I mean, the consequences are different. Yes, but you understand what I'm saying. Yeah.

You can stay lovingly connected to the people in your life, even if you're not bossing them around and telling them what to do. Yeah. So there's that. And it's much more loving to not give them the answer that you think they should do because the truth is you think you have the answer, even if you have good advice, but you don't know what they need to experience. Yeah, yeah.

So we'll quote back. Make their mistakes. Let's move into the co-parenting situation. You have to do whatever you have to do to make sure your kid is safe and that your kid is fed. Exactly. And eats. So we want to make sure those two things, food and safety is there. But I think there's two different ways to do it, right?

If you're co-parenting with someone that you're separated from, that is different because you have a different investment in them and they have a different investment in you or not. or not so much investment in caring what you think. But in your own relationship, how much, if you are mothering, you have to look at yourself and go, am I doing everything? Am I just doing it and then being resentful? Or am I not letting them give input at all? Because I do see this a lot in my therapy practice where mothers are like, listen, I'll figure something else out later.

I don't give a crap, but not now because this kid is too important. And I don't want to be, you know what I mean? Like they're almost like I'm too afraid myself, especially first-time moms are like, yeah, this kid just needs to live. And I just need to make sure that I'm breastfeeding and doing all the things I'm supposed to be doing. But I think that before you have a kid is when you really want to figure out the equitable stuff in the relationship. Yeah. And really look at what have you signed up for?

What have you signed up for? What was okay with you before you got married? It doesn't mean you can't change it after. You can. But keep in mind, you've been doing a dance. People get married. They're in a relationship for 10 years or some before they have kids. Like they're so habitual in what they do and who's doing what. And a lot of times the mother, right, becomes, takes all of what she was pouring into that relationship, pours it all into the kid and is like, you have to, you know, wait your turn sort of or there's not as much. Now, in more modern and healthy relationships, of course, you're not going to have that. You're going to have them both parenting and co-parenting and sharing. But I feel like before we go out into our relationships fixing high functioning codependency or any kind of codependency, we have to look at. We have to look at.

in and really get clear about our own behaviors. What are we doing? How have we invited others to treat us for how long? And if we're going to change it, it's our behavior that has to change. You know, people can't wait to have like a big conversation. They're like, oh, I'm just going to let them know everything is changing. I'm like, okay. That's going to go well. Not going to be that helpful. How about we just start putting boundaries in place? We just start setting limits on things that we don't want to do. we start asking them to do more. Well, and enabling, like, trusting them to do it.

I mean, what you must see a lot is like, well, how is he ever going to know what to do? Because you've always done it. How do you know if he can not do the thing with the kid, whatever it may be? You know, like, if you've always just done it. Like, what's he supposed to do? I'm not saying this apology of a man who can't watch his own kid, you know, overnight. Yeah, definitely not. No, I get it.

Just kind of like, you have to enable and trust at some point. I mean, and just hope your kid doesn't die. and gets fed and you know, all the things. Well, what you're talking about, though, Ash, it's like this is the perfectionism stuff where if your standards are like, it has to be done perfectly. This way. It really doesn't. And kids are really resilient.

And the thing is you have to allow what your partner is going to bring to the parenting scene is going to be different than what you bring. But you, and especially if you're co-parenting with someone and you have the kid half the time because you're divorced or you're separated or never got married, you have to just let it go. Whatever's happening. at that house, you cannot control it. This is what we do at Mommy's house. And this is what we're talking about here.

The rules and regulations, the way that we function, I think that letting go, you know, part of when you get to the end of the book, I talk about surrender and allowing and how important it is to allow other people to add value to our lives. I really am laughing internally. Like, my parents got divorced when I was four. They co-parented. We went back and forth to me, my brother and I,

between my mom and my dad every other day, for years. And the stuff that we were allowed to do at dad's house was crazy. What we were watching, Law and Order SVU and murder she wrote. I was like six. Dinner was-in-you-became the woman you ordered? Yeah. Dinner was fire. We just had, we had fried fish sticks every night and Kraft Mac and cheese. Dad dinners. We had no bedtime. We watched whatever we wanted. It was every other night. And then I go back to moms. It was a home-cooked meal with a vegetable starch or protein. It was homework. It was systems. Did my brother do his homework? Did I? Systems. But, you know, I never really thought about it because my mom never really

asked what goes on a dad's house and she's really controlling. It's surprising. There was this podcast we listened to a year ago. I think it was Marie for Leo or something and I was really, really burnt out at the time and I listened to this and I think she said, or her guest she had the time, I don't know who was. I think it was Gabby Bernstein. And they just said, when it comes to people who you work for you, for example, are going to do it 90% of the way you would do it yourself or, you know, 90% of what your perfection would be. And like, that's got to be okay with you. Because you can't do it all and you can't do it all perfect. And so, you know, I think about that a lot with parents. Like, my brother and I were joking. My parents are still married. But like, we were recently joking. And my dad was a great dad. And my mom was super chill. And I don't think this would resonate with her at all. But the nights that my dad was in charge of us, the dinners were crazy. It was always something from the back of the cupboard. Like, it was always breakfast for dinner. And he would get us all hyped up. He would brand it. You know, like, it was always just some eggs. Mom's got to do eggs.

I always had eggs for dinner. And he would make us be so hype about it. We're like, yeah, you know. And I think my mom would be like, what the fuck? Where's the carrots? You know, like, and she just had to let him live his truth. Like, it wouldn't have been the way she would have done it. But it got done and it's fine, I guess.

But that also speaks to, in a way, how you are the way you are. Right? Because right there, that there's a releasing of control. And if your parents were still married, she was in the house when he was making breakfast for dinner. So it's not like she didn't know about it, like your situation, you know? So she was okay being like, hey, nobody's going to die from this. And it's fun. And what is happening is something else was being added to your life. Because of that, there's like an expansion in breakfast for dinner, like kind of or just sort of fun. Like the rules don't apply when dad is

making dinner. There's something fun about that, you know, to me. Do attachment styles play into this codependency in any way? Like if you're a really anxiously attached person, are you pre-determined? to be in a certain type of like codependent relationship. I mean, listen, all of us, because we're human beings, right, codependency is a relational issue. Attachment stuff, that's relational issues as well. So, yeah, right, how is it going to play out? If you're someone who is avoidantly attached, you're going to be less of the traditional codependent stuff that you can identify as codependent, like hovering and overfunctioning being like, where are you and looking through someone's phone, right? You're going to be less that because the way that you deal as an avoidant.

The most widenly attached person is you create space for yourself. You move away from the situation. You don't text the person back for four days. Right. So with the more insecurely attached styles, yes, you would say, because think about how much control is trying to be asserted in those relationships where you're overly concerned about where your person is and what they're doing. You want to look in their phone, even if they haven't given you a reason, you know,

but you just feel like something bad is going on or whatever. So yes, I think that it's the attachment styles. I do talk about it in the book, but I don't get heavily into it because here's the thing with attachment styles. People get super attached to their attachment style, not to be redundant, but they do. Yeah. And I feel like it can get in the way of the learning because the thing is we can all become more securely attached if we become healthier.

Yes, it is not written in stone. Yeah. And a lot of times you have a mixture. You can vacillate between. And with different people. Yes. Like, right and I've said this all the time. Like, we're secure, but we've been in relationships where we couldn't have been more anxious.

Correct. And I've had partners that would say I'm a little avoidant too. Like I show up different depending on the partner. Yes. So it's their fault. Exactly. Of course it is. Obviously, duh.

That is clinical. Okay. One more correlation question for you. Could you talk about it in your book? And I thought it was really interesting. The source of attraction between codependence and narcissists. Yeah, I found that really interesting too. Well, I mean, look at it. It's like a match made in heaven until all hell breaks loose, as I like to say, because it's going to. So it's like you have the one person who's like, oh my God, it's literally all about me. And the other person who's like, oh my God, I can't wait to have it be all about you. That's the codependent, right? I'm overly focused on the desires, the wants, the interests, the life, the relationships, the situation, the circumstances of you. And you're the narcissist being like, perfect, exactly how I want it.

Yay. So it's a match made in heaven, but then it gets to a point. Now, we have a cycle that happens that as the codependent, you know, there just comes a point where you can only do it for so long because the love bombing phase is going to end. So we all know if you've been online for four seconds, you know what love bombing is. So that part is going to be over and they're going to start to become critical or they're going to start to get mad at something or they're going to say something really mean that shocks the crap out of you the first time they say it like, wait, are you going to wear those pants? Because you really look fat. Like, yeah, you go whiplash.

Someone who's never said it, you know, up until then, they're like, you're perfect sex is amazing. Let's go to Paris. I love your family. What are you doing in four years from now? My friend's getting married. Like all this future planning. Yeah. Exactly.

Red flags is right. All of a sudden they're like, you're fat. Yeah. And you're like, whoa. Whoa. And then you're devastated and they get off on that because this is. This is the fuel, right? We talk about narcissistic supply.

And then you try to get back in their good graces because you are romancing the high. You want to get back to the way it was. But, p.S, you're never going to because that was just a phase to get you sucked into the web. And there you are. And then we go to the final phase is discard, right? So either they break up with you or they push you away in some way. But there's so much punishment. And it depends on the abusive style of the narcissist.

But it's not fun. and can really be destabilizing. Being in a relationship like that is like it becomes your whole world, especially when someone is gaslighting you, which also, if you've been online for four seconds, you know, it means someone who's trying to mess with your reality, trying to make you question your reality.

And these relationships become all-encompassing. It's not all for not, right? You can absolutely get out. But the reason I wrote about it is because so many people write to me about being in these situations and so underreported. Right. We're relying on narcissists to tell us that they've narcissistic personality disorder with these

studies. Like, hi. No. You're the problem. I'm not the problem. Yeah. So you can become healthier and get out of those relationships. But I give you very safe ways to do so.

And I have a whole video blog that I did on that. We can put it in the show notes of like, don't just decide you're leaving and like make an announcement, please. Keep your cards close to your chest. Don't say anything. if you're in any kind of an abusive situation, you really want to be so mindful and careful because really your protection is the most important, of course. Of course. Yeah. I mean, I like talking about getting out of these cycles. And like I mentioned, I mean, Rain and I were in relationships where we had to

do everything. I also felt with an ex of mind that I was responsible for his emotional well-being and like on top of everything else. If we were on a trip, I had to make sure everything was taken care of. Like, I really didn't trust him to handle it on his own. You know, it was years ago, but I felt that kind of coming on in the beginning of my current relationship where it just was triggers from the past of like he was going to go book that flight and come to my birthday trip and part of me was like, well, you know, did you book it yet? When's it? You know, and he's like, I got, like, I feel like to book a flight. I got it. And little by little, I had to just remind myself that he's a grown adult that is responsible and I can rely on him and trust him to do what he says he's going to do and I don't

need to check in and make sure it's been done. And I think it took a minute to get there, just because it was my nature in past relationships, nothing to do with him. He had not given me any signs that he wasn't responsible and, you know, had his shit together. But it was like, it was a little bit of a practice for me of being like, I have to trust him. And it's not sexy to helicopter him too. It's not. But it makes sense, though, that it took a minute, right? What I always say to my therapy clients is let's not make assumptions that people are bad or that people are like us. Because I love that. We do that all the time. Yeah. It's called positive projection. where we project our good qualities onto people who have not actually proven that they possess those qualities just yet.

So I feel like we're going to take it slow and we're going to let people like you did with your person show us who they are and they will. But we must pay attention. And so if you wanted it to be different and the way that you allowed it to be different is that you caught yourself and you go, oh, hey, now is not then. He's not the other one. I'm going to give this one a chance to do it. what he says is going to do. Oh, look, he did what he said he's going to do. And suddenly all of those past pains start to go away because you're like, oh, this is what a more interdependent relationship looks like. Totally. Do you feel like that? You feel like you have like a natural, a tick of like,

I got to do it or it's not going to get done? With romantic partners in the past, I think that I always was just like, I'm better at this. It comes more naturally to me. I have more experience at this. so I'll just do it. And I have to have self-talk with myself where the travel stuff's like a big thing where you're like, I don't need to explain to an adult man how to book a hotel or how to call an airline ahead of time and ask, do you allow dogs on the airline? What's the procedure for that? And I'm going to let you fail.

And then I'm going to, if you do fail, I'm going to be the judge of whether I could be with somebody that doesn't, like you said, clean up their own side of the street. And I think as I've gotten older, I'm more predetermined to just allow somebody to show me that they can take care of it. But it's a real muscle that you have to like relew it. to flex because if you're just like, well, everything fell on me and I did do everything, then you're just going to assume that all men are stupid and they are helpless and, you know? Yes, which is not true.

And I think that you also have to have conversations. Like part of it is having a conversation. In relationships, a lot of times, you might be better at something and they might be better at something. So it's okay if you do all the travel if they're picking up the slack somewhere else. Yes. Right? So I don't expect us all to have the exact same skill sets.

But mutuality in effort and being responsible. end. If that person, they have a job that's theirs, right? You have your jobs that are yours. You have to do them from the beginning to the middle to the end. It's no like, you know, the honey-do list, like a stupid thing. Have you ever seen that? Which is ridiculous. But I know, it's not that because then that's still on your list. If you're checking to make sure that they did the thing that they're supposed to do, there isn't mutuality in that because you're still basically the producer of the entire event that they're supposed to be taken care of two. So I I think that finding that place in the middle and like, how do we get there and what does that

look like? It's all about having conversations. But before we can do any of that, we have to look in. And I give you a high functioning codependency blueprint that you can do, just questions that people can ask themselves. And what HFC blueprint is a relational blueprint. Why do I relate the way that I do to my friends, to my work situation, to my partners? And that once you have a clarity of that, like, oh, or, you.

Oh my God, look, I'm doing exactly what my parents did, even though I said I wasn't going to, but here I am doing it. We bring it from the basement, which is your unconscious to the main part of the house, and then you can make changes. I'm sure you see changes, because I feel for maybe a friend who feels like she's the one that has to plan everything, has to schedule the group dinners, has to plan the trips, then has to send everyone the Venmo request, like really, and feels like that's her role in the group where if it wasn't her role, she might lose some of the, like, friends.

I mean, I feel for that person that's like, I want to change, but this may be my value to people. It's interesting that you bring that up. I have the same friends I've had since I was five years old, so seven of us. And one of us was doing this. So for the birthday, this year was a big birthday. For all of us, so three months ago, she said, you know, I've been getting the flowers, like every time is the person we send flowers to them. And she's like, can someone else do it?

I'm overwhelmed. And I was like, I got it. No problem. But we have to ask. Yes. And I think that this is part of the real difficulty is allowing others to pick up the slack and asking. You've talked a lot about how that's been hard for you.

Like you've really had to train yourself to ask their people. We love to make the plans. Yeah. Well, I want to do what I want to do, you know? Yeah. I don't think you and I are mad about it. I think we actually really, like I plan this whole trip to Jackson Hole. Actually plans all over other trips.

Like I think that it comes naturally to us. It's easy for us. We've an assistant that can help us. You know, we want to go to this dinner in Vegas. Tess had made a bunch of phone calls for us to help. It comes naturally that's fun. I think the line is that we don't resent it that's really enjoyable for us. But it asking, I mean, Enrae and I run two businesses together, but still we have a friendship beside of that. And like, it doesn't feel natural for me to ask her to do something and maybe vice versa that I can do

myself. But it's not that I can't do it. It's that I'm overwhelmed or I have this going on and I know her load is a little lighter, even if it is something relating to friends. Hey, do you mind, we've done that before. Hey, can you send flowers to so and so? Exactly that example. Like, I just got a lot on my plate. She's like, yeah, say less. So it is just asking for help. If they're your real friends, they will help. Like, then I guess you find out who your friends are. You know, if you're like, hey, can someone else make the next dinner reservation and they're like, no, you always do it? Then that's not your friend. Can you imagine? Right. You're like, yeah. Yeah. So these are like little things. Yeah, delegating is just. But we have to look at our fear,

though. And you made a great point. Like, if the person who is going to ask for help feels like, this is my place in the group, I must add value, which is very HFC, feeling like I must be utilitarian in the relationships. I must be adding value endlessly to the people in my life. It's not true. You don't have to be because your presence does add value, who you are. You're worthy. Like, you don't have to work for your life. Right. You know, in relationships. And yet a lot of us feel like we do. and naturally, not because anyone said it. We're just doing it. We just want to.

And yet, there comes a point where it's too much. And it's not healthy for the relationship is really what we're talking about. Because if this worked, I wouldn't write a whole book about it. Do you know what I mean? If it worked great? Yeah. But you see the same thing over and over again, you know. So, I mean, I think we're already sort of there talking about healing, creating better

habits and asking for help. But what other advice do you have? The book is great. I really encourage people to buy this and read the book. But you talk about emotional self-regulation and different boundary styles and boundary destroyers, which I love that term. So maybe emotional self-regulation. We start with that.

So what is it? It means, first of all, you're fluent in your own emotions. Not just that you feel bad or you feel good, right? A lot of us have a rudimentary understanding of our emotions, but don't really have the nuances because feeling bad is different than being sad, than being rageful, then being angry, than being annoyed. There's all these subcategories. So first of all, knowing yourself and how you feel.

sort of the beginning. And you have to want to slow it down. And then how do you self-regulate? What does that look like for you? There's many things that you can do. If you're feeling activated, step away from the conversation. If you're with another person, you can plunge your hands into cold water as a pattern interruption. You can start humming, which is like an anti-anxiety move to make. There's a bunch of things that you can do if you're feeling activated. But the most important one is to be proactive in understanding what is triggering you and why. And those are the injuries that need your attention, right? It's really this situation is just like kicking a sore.

You have a sore in your leg and this situation is kicking that. But if you're being actually triggered, and it's funny, I say the word activated more than I say the word triggered just because that shit is so overused. I can't even take it. And usually the word triggered really means we're really talking about trauma. We're really talking about a trauma response. But what I find in my practice is that most of us are simply being activated. We're more annoyed than we need to be.

We are, right? I love the word. I think you're activated. But it's like you're having an amplified response to a situation now, in current time, from an unresolved situation from an earlier time. Something's happening that is reminding you. It's similar. It's familiar.

So it's bothering you more than it would. You've got to go back. So I have these three cues that I give you three questions that you can ask. Who does this person remind me out? Where have I felt like this before? And how or why? Why is this behavioral dynamic the way we are interacting? How is that familiar to me?

And what usually happens is that you will come up with, oh, my God, I had a boss who, you know, I was doing this with I was afraid of. And I actually was like, oh, my God, this guy reminds me so much of my unavailable, terrifying father. It wasn't him. He hadn't done anything. Totally. I turned into a 10-year-old around him. Obviously not great for your career to turn into a 10-year-old around your boss. But we learned those things. So anyway, for anyone who's being very activatable in different situations, you can use these three questions to gain clarity on what might be an original injury that needs your attention, which means you've got to go back. And for me, with the father thing,

I thought I had done it all in therapy, but apparently there was still something sticky. So I was going back to therapy and talked about my father before and how this guy reminded me of him. And then I stopped being afraid of him. So we really want to understand what is triggering us and why. I love those three questions. Okay. And then it seems like a lot of this is just boundaries. And I also encourage people to read your book, Boundary Boss.

And also we've had Nedra Toab on the show multiple times and she has phenomenal books about boundaries. But can we maybe talk about boundary styles and how to manage boundary destroyers? Yes, we can. So boundary styles, like, it's not, people just think that having bad boundaries means that you're a pushover. That's just one disordered boundary style. That's being too porous. It's having too malleable. But then you're also, on the other side is being rigid.

So you're like, if you're someone who's like my way or the highway, kind of. Yeah, too many boundaries. That's what I'm saying. Who wants to be friends with that person? I'm just saying. They're very bossy. Rigid, that's the word. They are rigid.

Yeah. And they would rather ditch you than tell you that you hurt their. feelings. They would be more likely to ghost you for like two weeks to be like, let her think about what she did. That's my boundary. Right. And that's my passive aggressive boundary. Yeah. Yeah. So those are the styles, right? And we can be anywhere in between. But so much of the time, I have a really great boundary quiz that's free if people want to take it. It's just boundaryquiz.com Where there's different archetypes that you answer 13 questions and you come up with what is your archetype. You could be the ice queen.

you could be the pushover, you could be the peacekeeper, like there's different ways that our disordered boundaries will present. And I find that with people who are codependency, it's a lot of the more malleable ones where your boundaries can be more too loose as opposed to being more rigid. In the meantime, going to the boundary destroyer. Really, it is talking about narcissists and, you know, cluster B personality disorder type people who are highly manipulative. And so what I did in B B boss as I did a whole entire chapter on this to just school people in all of the different ways that these mother effers are going to try to manipulate you in your life so that you don't fall forward from love bombing to gaslighting to faux concern. Like seriously, I'm concerned about you.

And it's not just me. I wasn't going to say anything. Yeah. But Bob also said he thought you were kind of off the rails. I didn't want to say anything, but I don't know. And that's such a tactic. Everyone is saying this. You know. It's so mean. It's so mean. And also lying, just straight up lying. Or being like, no, that's not.

Insult. That didn't happen at all. Exactly. Saying you're hysterical. Saying you're. So again, we can, this can be a systematic thing where if you're in a relationship with someone who is a boundary destroyer, they cannot and will not respect your boundaries. Even if you had the perfect words.

And I have a whole entire chapter and boundary boss with just scripts. Yeah. An entire chapter, but it doesn't matter. because if you're with a boundary destroyer, the perfect words, they will still find a way to be offended by what you did. They will still find a way to tell you that it's selfish. They will still find a way. You will leave that conversation crying and begging them for forgiveness.

You're like, how did this happen? Like, I came in with a beef with you. How am I leaving crying? So we need to be very aware that this is really where you need to know that people are not like us. Right. Well, and you have this, I think there's a part in the book where it's like ask yourself, Have you ever thought to yourself? Like if I just say this perfect thing in this perfect way, I'll be able to get through them.

If I just presented it this time, I'll be able to get through to them. So that's like a check to do too. Yeah, it's also very much the way a kid in an abusive home feels. If I just get better grades than dad won't drink. If I just did this, then mom won't hit me, right? It's like taking it on us, even though it's not our responsibility. And that over-responsibility, a lot of times, is one of the hallmarks of high-function codependency.

where we feel overly responsible for the feeling states of other people. You could walk into your house in a great mood and your partner's in a terrible mood. And suddenly your great mood is out the window. And you're like dancing as fast as you can to be like, want to drink? Should I make a snack? Like trying to do whatever you can to change their mood rather than when you're healthier. You can just respect it. Like, oh, you need time.

Yeah. I'm going to hop in the tub and just let me know if you want to meet up for a drink. Like, there's a way to just go, that bad mood is your side of the street. Yeah. If you want to talk about it, I'm here to talk. but not the going into manipulation mode, you know? Totally. We covered a lot.

Terry, I've a new guest crush. It's you. I just love you. I think you're amazing. I would listen to you talk about anything. Your voice is great. You're so smart. You're so smart.

Why, thanks, right? I've been doing that you're 25 years. I'm good at my job. No, you're just, you're up there for me with like Esther Perel and like NEDRA. Aw, cuties. You got to love all the therapists in the show. I know. This has been really fantastic.

And our audience was really excited about. it and I know that they like want more of that information. So the book does come out tomorrow. So tell everybody where they can find you on Instagram and your website and the book and everything. Yes. And they can also get a gift at terrycolle.com forward slash HFC. So I'm giving you guys a morning routine in different ways that you can stop being so HFC-ish. And you can get the book anywhere if I find books are sold. There's lots of bonuses. If you go to hfcbook.com, there's a ton of bonuses there too. I'm super duper excited for this little book baby to get out in the world. So thank Thank you guys so much for having me.

Thank you. Thanks for doing this. And you guys know where to find us. Girls GottaEat.com for tour tickets, of course. We're Girls' Get E Podcast on Instagram and TikTok. I'm Ash Has, rena's rena. combe. Subscribe on YouTube, share this episode with a friend, and we will see you Thursday.

See in a couple days, guys. Bye.